From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 2:59 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #166 Zorn List Digest Tuesday, November 18 1997 Volume 02 : Number 166 In this issue: - Re: Elegy; sex and (ho hum) death Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ State of the Union '96 Re: Ascension or Descension? Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ Re: The big deal Re: Ascension or Descension?/questions Re: State of the Union '96 Re: State of the Union '96 Re: State of the Union '96 RE: Wynton/Blues Re: Wynton/Blues Re: State of the Union '96 Re: State of the Union '96 RE: Wynton/Blues "I'M GONNA MAKE YOU SUFFER!"--John Zorn at LA Concert Re: "I'M GONNA MAKE YOU SUFFER!"--John Zorn at LA Concert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:58:52 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Elegy; sex and (ho hum) death On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, David Slusser wrote: > I participated in Zorn's "Elegy" recording a few years back around > Thanksgiving. > It concerned the writing and life of Jean Genet. In preparation Zorn referred > us to Genet's writing, and the demi-monde of the prison punk- murder, drugs, > petty theft, S&M, homosexuality and death. To get in the mood in the morning > before recording, Zorn and Mike Patton put on videos (not exactly snuff films) > of people losing their lives by various means. To sustain the grim mood during > a break for the Thanksgiving holiday, Zorn and a few others attended an autopsy > at a medical school! In light of that, I don't think my comments about death > were "fucking stupid". > I'll give you this, though, the Genet recording also concerned sex. > I guess this would vindicate your earlier posting about Zorn and some kinda death aesthetic - tho' that certainly doesn't prove the validity of any broader racial trend. Beyond that; there's the question of whether Zorn's specific intentions with this piece are actually realised in the audience's experience of the work (y'know, like TS Elliot said - Between dream and reality, there falls the shadow - or something). Elegy is a fine work, but Genet's work is about (v much) more than this aesthetic of death that Zorn might've been exploring at the time. I dunno - - how do other people feel about this? In any case; I'm personally glad that Zorn seems to have moved on from these concerns - they're facile, and hardly transgressive in a culture where images of death are so commonplace (and so readily exploited at all levels of the media). Personally, I usually just dismiss this - -type behaviour as sheltered, middle-class white people getting their vicarious jollies. Cheers, Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:10:39 +0100 From: flamerik@best.ms.philips.com Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ Chris Hamilton wrote: > The strategy works best on _Torture Garden_ because the > juxtapositions are so compressed and performed so consistently at > breakneck speed that they provide a sense of rhythm that's absent on the > first record. Actually, I think _Torture Garden_'s pretty great, although > I don't often want to hear it. _Radio_ tries to superimpose the genres > rather than horizontally juxtaposing them, but still sounds a bit too > slick to my ears. (My criticisms don't apply to the other Naked City > records since they don't use this approach at all.) I think Grand Guignol uses the technique of juxtaposing various stylistic elements as well, only the styles are not as easy to discern. In the liner notes of Grand Guignol, a couple of bands/projects are thanked that appear to have had a great influence on the sound sculpture that Grand Guignol is: SPK, Whitehouse, P16.D4. These are all exponents of the '80s "industrial"/ avant-garde movement, who were very interested in the possibilities of sound. Strangely enough, Nurse With Wound is not mentioned in the thanks list. To me, Grand Guignol is one of the finest Naked City compositions, because it exactly captures what it tries to convey. Frankco. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:33:36 UT From: peter_risser@cinfin.com Subject: State of the Union '96 I have '92 and had heard that '96 was released, but have not been able to find it at the usual places. Does anyone know what label it's on and where I might find a copy? Does it even truly exist? Thanks, Peter - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:17:44 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Ascension or Descension? >So true. I was simply emphasizing the fact that the Descension >album is 10 times the lovely racket of anything Ascension has done. >That's what the ;-) was for. > > >-Patrick I know. I agree. I was simply emphasizing your fact 10 times more. For anyone who likes this kind of music, Descension is sheer delight. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:16:51 -0500 From: "Chris Barrett" Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ It's funny, after reading all the postings about this I think I have a different appreciation of Naked City than most people on the list. In fact, _Radio_ and _Naked CIty_ are my two favorites. I've found a lot of the material hit or miss. With a few exceptions (like "NY Flattop Box) I really am not into the short bursts, or for the matter most of Yamaksuka Eye's contributions. I've actually appreciated the "slick" fairly straight tracks. I think, in some ways the music Naked City performed on these tracks is among the best of Zorn's work. In some senses, I think it's easy to be far out, but to have these tracks remain fairly faithfull to the various genres they were conjuring up, but usually still have a twist or two (007 theme, A Shot in The Dark) I think is pretty cool. It almost seems to me that this is what fusion should have been, five guys with mostly electric instruments playing with dynamics, feel and still rocking out. These are the albums that got me into Horvitz, and it was cool to find a keyboard player who can play synthesizers without sound ing glossy (or like keith emerson or rick wakeman for that matter), who can make really startling and/or interesting noises, and yet can still play piano or hammond b3 in a staright jazz, blues or funk environment. Anyhow, my 2cents. - -Chris - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:31:04 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: The big deal >I've actually appreciated the "slick" fairly straight >tracks. >Anyhow, my 2cents. > >-Chris I'll see your 2 cents and raise you a nickel. I agreed with your entire post. I listen to RADIO and NAKED CITY more than the rest, although I do enjoy the rest. I always thought Zorn was doing "slick" with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:40:04 -0500 (EST) From: matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese) Subject: Re: Ascension or Descension?/questions As an Ascension fan I have to pipe up here and say I never play the Descension disk. In essence I guess I agree with the cd quote about this hideous "thrombosing" (sp?--although I must give it up to them for introducing me to this word) of the music being a dead end. In the additional clamor, the essential tension of Ascension was lost for me. It's got some great parts (usually the fist 10 minutes that I listen to), but in the long run it comes off as an endurance test, where as Ascension maintains it interest, largely because it maintains the tension that keeps me at the edge of my seat and listening. _Broadcast_ is deffinately the Ascention album (of the two I've heard). Really killer. Questions: Anyone heard the Eddie Prevost/Evan Parker 2cd duo out on Matchless? What's the good Borbetomagus stuff? I have the PSF disk (forgot the name), but feel about it the same way I do the Descention stuff. Should I just give up? I really liked the Sauter/Dietrich/Moore album, so I feel they've got some restraint tucked somewhere up their horns. No? >>So true. I was simply emphasizing the fact that the Descension >>album is 10 times the lovely racket of anything Ascension has done. >>That's what the ;-) was for. >> >> >>-Patrick > >I know. I agree. I was simply emphasizing your fact 10 times more. For >anyone who likes this kind of music, Descension is sheer delight. > >sZ > > > >- - ------ "Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it kept them apart, spatially." - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:41:52 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: State of the Union '96 On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:33:36 UT peter_risser@cinfin.com wrote: > > I have '92 and had heard that '96 was released, but have not been able to find > it at the usual places. Does anyone know what label it's on and where I might > find a copy? > > Does it even truly exist? Sure. It's a 2xCD on Atavistic. Should not be hard to find in the US. Also, the good think is that there is a number for each track that you can during listening. With one minute tracks and so many artists, that kind of help. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:18:52 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: State of the Union '96 At 5:33 AM 11/18/97, peter_risser@cinfin.com wrote: >I have '92 and had heard that '96 was released, but have not been able to find >it at the usual places. Does anyone know what label it's on and where I might >find a copy? > >Does it even truly exist? > Yes it does. it's 146 artists (my band Minus is one) each contributing a one minute piece, on 2 CD's. It's on Atavistic, parts of it are very good, parts are less so, and it's generally an exhausting thing to listen to all the way through. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:25:48 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: State of the Union '96 On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:18:52 -0800 Dave Trenkel wrote: > > At 5:33 AM 11/18/97, peter_risser@cinfin.com wrote: > >I have '92 and had heard that '96 was released, but have not been able to find > >it at the usual places. Does anyone know what label it's on and where I might > >find a copy? > > > >Does it even truly exist? > > > Yes it does. it's 146 artists (my band Minus is one) each contributing a > one minute piece, on 2 CD's. It's on Atavistic, parts of it are very good, > parts are less so, and it's generally an exhausting thing to listen to all > the way through. A 4xCD for year 2000? Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:39:20 -0700 From: dtapia@unoco.edu (Douglas Tapia) Subject: RE: Wynton/Blues >Well that's interesting. I remember reading an interview with Keith >Jarrett in the New York Times Magazine where Keith challenged Wynton to a >blues battle, claiming that "Wynton can't play the blues." Yea, but consider the source. Keith is one of my favorite pianists of all time, and if anybody has a "right" to a snobish attitude, Keith certainly does considering the staggering body of his work, but you have to admit that he has a way of going off on wild rants. Consider his hour long improvised lecture in the middle of a performance in NY city a few years back on "the problems with jazz today" and "artists who buy their licks at the same store they buy their ties." (some real valid points here, I think, but still, not what I paid for when I bought tickets to Keith's first NY performance in years) Not to mention his view of keyboard players as "pianists who have sold their soul for a pile of transistors" I wonder what Mr. Jarrett would have to say about Wayne Horvitz (another of my favorite keyboardists) or Frisell, or Laswell, or Zorn himself. Can't imagine he sees any of these artists in a real favorable light. . . My point is this: I have had friends who are Wynton fans who are fine musicians (with souls and everything) and even though I can't remember the last time I personally put on a Wynton disk to hear "that amazingly moving playing" I admit that I own a couple. I think _Standard Time Vol 1_ was a very important recording in shaping the conceptual approach of many of the current crop of "Young Lions." (whatever you think of this tradition) Jacky Terrison certainly borrows elements from that Wynton band in his arrangements of standards, and he is, without a doubt, one of the most creative "Young Lions" working today. I don't think that just because I love Keith Jarrett that I have to love (and hate) the same things that Keith does. I also don't see any problem with having Zorn, Hemmingway, Braxton, Ornette, etc in the same record collection as my more straight ahead disks. Just because I love much of Zorn's work dosn't mean that I have to dislike Chris Potter, or Kenny Garrett, etc. (or even Wynton) Not all music has to "move" me in the same way, or at all. If we take an elitist view of other musics as listeners to of the avant garde, don't we become like the "jazz snobs" who frown and plug their ears at "lesser music"? I for one have dodged becoming a "jazz snob," for many years, and there's no way anyone is going to convice me to become an "avant garde snob" Listen to everything you can. Like what you like, trade the rest in, I say. Doug Tapia General Manager, MTP UNC Music Tech Press University of Northern Colorado Fraiser 108 Greeley, CO 80639 Voice: 970-351-2614 Fax: 970-351-1923 Email: mtp@unoco.edu http://arts.univnorthco.edu/mtp - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:05:12 +0000 From: Scott Russell Subject: Re: Wynton/Blues - --MimeMultipartBoundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Douglas Tapia wrote: > > >Well that's interesting. I remember reading an interview with Keith > >Jarrett in the New York Times Magazine where Keith challenged Wynton to a > >blues battle, claiming that "Wynton can't play the blues." > > Yea, but consider the source. Keith is one of my favorite pianists of all > time, and if anybody has a "right" to a snobish attitude, Keith certainly > does considering the staggering body of his work, but you have to admit > that he has a way of going off on wild rants. Oh my, Jarret had to come up eventually I suppose. But why does having a staggering body of work give him the right to a snobbish attitude? I used to like Jarret's work but have been put off over the years by his seemingly unending desire to commit his every doodle to a double or triple album and his obnoxiously holier than thou attitude when it comes to music made by anyone but himself. > > Consider his hour long improvised lecture in the middle of a performance in > NY city a few years back on "the problems with jazz today" and "artists who > buy their licks at the same store they buy their ties." Who the hell really needs this? Is his position so exalted that he can talk down to everyone else? He would do well to remember that musicians are appreciated for their music not their opinions. > I can't see how Jarret could really fit with the music discussed here because of his authoritarian attitude and revulsion to all things electrical. Does anyone know how he justified his appearance with the Miles Davis 'electric' bands of the early 70's f'rinstance?_ > > I don't think that just because I love Keith Jarrett that I have to love > (and hate) the same things that Keith does. TRUE! As it is for, say, Zorn and Zappa too! > > Listen to everything you can. Like what you like, trade the rest in, I say. Absolutely! Scott Russell - --MimeMultipartBoundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:47:40 -0500 (EST) From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: State of the Union '96 In a message dated 97-11-18 08:40:49 EST, you write: << I have '92 and had heard that '96 was released, but have not been able to find it at the usual places. Does anyone know what label it's on and where I might find a copy? >> Wayside Music caried this double CD for awhile- I got mine from them about a year ago. =dgasque= - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:28:50 -0700 From: Brian Carlson Subject: Re: State of the Union '96 >I have '92 and had heard that '96 was released, but have not been able to find >it at the usual places. Does anyone know what label it's on and where I might >find a copy? > >Does it even truly exist? > >Thanks, >Peter It does exist. It is on Atavistic (ALP69CD). Their address is: PO Box 578266 Chicago, IL 60657. I found it at a local record shop last year. Brian - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:35:23 -0500 From: "Chris Barrett" Subject: RE: Wynton/Blues > >If we take an elitist view of other musics as listeners to of the avant >garde, don't we become like the "jazz snobs" who frown and plug their ears >at "lesser music"? I for one have dodged becoming a "jazz snob," for many >years, and there's no way anyone is going to convice me to become an "avant >garde snob" > >Listen to everything you can. Like what you like, trade the rest in, I say. > Exactly. - -Chris - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:15:40 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: "I'M GONNA MAKE YOU SUFFER!"--John Zorn at LA Concert >>Listen to everything you can. Like what you like, trade the rest in, I say. Listen to everything you can. Like what you like. Hate what you hate. Rant and rave shamelessly about what you like. Spew forth arrogant graceless venom about everything you hate. Have strong opinions and scream them loudly. Is this the Zorn list or Gentlemen's Quarterly? s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:57:45 -0700 From: dtapia@unoco.edu (Douglas Tapia) Subject: Re: "I'M GONNA MAKE YOU SUFFER!"--John Zorn at LA Concert >Is this the Zorn list or Gentlemen's Quarterly? Sorry. You're right. This IS the Zorn list. Not the gentlemen's quartely (small gq). >Spew forth arrogant graceless venom about everything you hate. would it help if it were UNINFORMED arrogant graceless venom filled with half truths? >Have strong opinions and scream them loudly. I do have opinions, and I did express them, s~Z. My opinion is the world is full of xenophobic idiots who can't tollerate anything that is outside of their confort zone. Sadly, it is apparent that this statement holds true for Zornsters as well as Wyntonites. I would expect more from a bunch of people who are as open minded as we suppose ourselves to be. Perhaps my earlier verbage is what lead s~Z to his gq comment, I just thought that we could have an intellegent discussion about art while keeping an open mind. But perhaps my comments were too subtle, too akin to the quiet of Masada when in fact what you were hoping for was an attack ala Pain Killer, eh s~Z? I say again, listen to what you want to listen to. If you're going to have a closed mind about what you listen to, then don't pretend to have an expansive philosophy. The whole world is pissed at Wynton because he has a big mouth and a non-expansive, closed view of art, but if we are going to cast aside the entirety of his work because of this, we are as foolish as he is. So, if having listened to his stuff you hate it, fine, sell it back, and stop whining. And don't ever confuse me with some ineffectual yuppie shitbag just because I can accept other people's points of view and express myself without the need to drag anyone through the dirt. "Don't ever piss of a pacifist" Doug - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #166 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. 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