From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Friday, November 28, 1997 3:40 AM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #180 Zorn List Digest Friday, November 28 1997 Volume 02 : Number 180 In this issue: - Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #178 Re: Nyman Re Great Jewish Music/Radical Jewish Culture Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #178 Re: Marc Ribot at KF new Frisell Re: Jewish Music / Black Music (was: Serge Gainsbour...) Re: Black music, Jewish music, ... Re: Zorn a control freak? Re: Don Cherry/Sonny Sharrock RE: Marc Ribot at KF Re: Re Great Jewish Music/Radical Jewish Culture Don Byron on NPR's Fresh Air Re: Jewish Music / Black Music/ Gay music Re: Jewish Music / Black Music/ Gay music Re: new Frisell Re: Great Jewish Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:00:37 -0800 From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #178 Glenn_Lea@avid.com wrote: > > > > If you can find it, ETERNAL RHYTHM by Don Cherry features Sonny > Sharrock and > > > was recorded in Nov. 1968 > > > > > > I don't know if this was ever released on cd, the copy I have is an > lp (BASF > > > 20680) > > > > It hasn't been released on disc, but damn sure should be. > > I believe this WAS released on CD about a year ago, in Europe only, on > Verve (!) as a double CD with additional material. "The Wire" was > giving it away as a freebie to new subscribers, even. But I can't find > any reference to it on the Verve website. Can anyone help here? > > - I vaguely recall that, but I thought it was repackaged Cherry from some other sessions. If you find out otherwise, please let me (us) know. Meanwhile, I did an Alta Vista search on 'Eternal Rhythm' and came across the following which I don't think I had ever heard of: Actions Penderecki/Don Cherry/The New Eternal Rhythm Orchestra Recorded live at Donaueschingen in 1971 it features the following band conducted by KP: Manfred Schoof, Kenny Wheeler, Tomasz Stanko, Paul Rutherford, Albert Mangelsdorff, Gerd Dudek, Peter Brotzmann, Willem Breuker, Gunter Hampel, Fred Van Hove, Terje Rypdal, Buschi Niebergall, Peter Warren and Han Bennink. Talk about an impressive line-up! This is listed as Philips 6305 153 (formerly on Wergo). I can't believe I've missed out on this over the years (maybe it was just released?)and am very curious as to other's reaction to it. Brian O. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:08:20 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Nyman > > While people are talking about this guy, what does everyone think of his > > soundtrack work? Incidentally, is there any link between him and Zorn apart > > from that there are some mild similarities in their output? > > Similarities? As much as a one-dimension figure can be to a three-dimension one... Well, I had no idea why his name came up on this list, so I guessed that there was something I was missing. Adding the word "mild" was meant to prevent replies like that one, I guess I should have written "extremely mild". - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:52:45 -0800 From: Herb Levy Subject: Re Great Jewish Music/Radical Jewish Culture Zorn's project in re: Radical Jewish Culture (& the Great Jewish Music discs are just a part of the Tzadik subset called Radical Jewish Culture) seems to be about expanding what is recognized as "Jewish" culturally betond just the religious realm. So the lengthy discussion of whether Gainsbourg & his music are "really" Jewish, speaks directly to the point. Most of the work presented as Radical Jewish Culture, both on CD or as part of the several festivals with this title that Zorn has curated, has little or no relationship to Judaism as a religion, but rather to a broader range of experiences shared by some if not all Jews. I've cited these before, but let me reiterate the quote from Gershom Scholem that's on the packaging for all of the Masada CDs & the notes by Anthony Coleman for his disc called "Selfhaters". Taken together these help to place the concept of Radical Jewish Culture outside the religious tradition & what might commonly be considered "Jewish music." In fact, taken together, they posit a kind of culture that is rooted in how any people live, rather than on any traditions may have been passed down (see my comments on Black music below). Gershom Scholem: "There is a life of tradition that does not merely consist of consertvative preservation, the constant continuation of the spoiritual and cultural possessions of a community. There is such a thing as a treasure hunt within tradition which creates a living relationship to tradition and to which much of what is best in current jewish consciousness is indebted, even where it was - and is - expressed outside the framework of orthodoxy." Anthony Coleman: 'Selfhater. It describes a way of seeing. A perception. True? Diengaged. Disinterested? Are slefhaters traitors or secret agents? For which side? Do they show the rest of the world the picture that they believe anyway, or do they strip away an element of false consciousness implicit in a sense of "belonging" to a "culture." And which culture? Jerusalem, Belz, the Lower east Side, or Rockland County? Or the culture of wandering, the culture of acquisitiveness, of having-no-voice-of-one's-own, of mauscheling in any & all languages. Well, this disc doesn't puport to answer. Some say that's Jewish, too..." While I don't know many of the details of Gainsboutg's life, at least some aspects as repoorted here seem to relate to Coleman's evocation of assimilated Jews as participants in a specifically Jewish cultural tradition. Which seems to be part of Zorn's point. Rather than taking the tradition of cantorial & klezmer musics as the limits of what constitutes "Jewish music", Zorn is calling into question the pigeonholes often used to hold things in place. Compare this to, say, Anthony Braxton, Cecil Taylor, Sun Ra & others who insist that their work comes out of a Black tradition, despite the fact that much of what they create doesn't sound much like the most commonly recognized styles of "Black music." In other words, "Jewish music" or "Black music" not as a specific genre, but as the continuum of music really made by Jews & Blacks. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:05:43 -0700 From: john shiurba Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #178 brian o: > Actions > Penderecki/Don Cherry/The New Eternal Rhythm Orchestra > > Recorded live at Donaueschingen in 1971 it features the following band > conducted by KP: Manfred Schoof, Kenny Wheeler, Tomasz Stanko, Paul > Rutherford, Albert Mangelsdorff, Gerd Dudek, Peter Brotzmann, Willem > Breuker, Gunter Hampel, Fred Van Hove, Terje Rypdal, Buschi Niebergall, > Peter Warren and Han Bennink. Talk about an impressive line-up! > > This is listed as Philips 6305 153 (formerly on Wergo). > > I can't believe I've missed out on this over the years (maybe it was > just released?)and am very curious as to other's reaction to it. this is mostly interesting for the Penderecki content--hearing what he came up with writing for an improvisers orchestra. The Cherry portion (which I rarely play) has a lot of his singing and playing misc woodflutes, etc. If that's the phase of Cherry's music that you like, you may get more mileage out of it than me. btw, i have an old LP, but perhaps it has recently been reissued on CD (?) - -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:24:43 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Marc Ribot at KF Jesse Simon wrote: > On the Tzadik website there is mention of a series of concerts by Marc > Ribot and his new band (the prosthetic cubans?) at the Knitting Factory. I > believe the dates are december 4,5,6 and 7. However on the Knitting Factory > page there is no mention of these concerts. Marc Ribot and Los Cubanos Postisos will be inaugurating the very imaginatively-named new performing space at the Knitting Factory, "The Old Office" (so-called because it's literally the old office, on the floor beneath the Alterknit Theater and Tap Bar). This new space is going to be devoted to Wednesday through Sunday runs by a single artist or group. Sets are at 8 and 9:30 so that they wrap up before the Late Night Hang starts up and renders music downstairs impossible. All tickets are supposed to be $5, though you can certainly expect to pay more if Zorn decides to workshop his "next big thing," whatever it is, in the space. Tim Berne is in there from Dec. 17 - 20 with Bloodcount and on the 21st with Paraphrase. John Medeski has a trio (not MMW) on the 24th through the 28th, unless they change things for that week due to Christmas. Presumably someone has been booked for the week between Ribot's and Berne's but I don't know who. Latin for Travelers and Pachora both have bookings in January. The Knit inaugurates the new space with an invitation-only party next Tuesday, so you'd think there would be something on the website by now... Enjoy the show. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:40:29 -0800 From: Todd Bramy Subject: new Frisell Since someone asked:=20 The new Frisell CD "Gone, Just Like A Train" has a February release date,= but I have had the chance to give it a listen. While not as "countrified"= as the last release, "Nashville", this new release does come off as a= celebration of the midwest sound, relying on blusier tracks and some full= on revolutionary-war-style period pieces. We even hear a beautiful= reworking of "Lookout for Hope" which is very appropriate since that album= could easily serve as a prequel to "Gone, Just Like A Train". I was= surprised to note Jim Keltner on drums, but he is actually a great choice.= His roll style fits perfectly with the tone of this album.=20 I was not a big fan of "Nashville", but like this new one a lot. Hope that h= elps. Todd Bramy tbramy@oz.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:01:07 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Jewish Music / Black Music (was: Serge Gainsbour...) On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Friedrich Feger wrote: > Okay, by putting Serge Gainsbourg into a series of "Great Jewish Music", > Zorn wants to promote Jewish self-confidence, and that's of course an > honourable end. But what makes it problematic to me is the implied > connection between racial or religious affiliation and the production of > art. I don't like this deterministic conclusion (Chris called it > "inescapability") from the former to the latter and believe that people can > create very independently from certain parts of their heritage (which means > that I would like to differentiate between contingent heritage and "roots", > which are meaningful for the work). Examples are white people playing Black > Music, and, even more, gay people in art and science. In most cases it is > absolutely useless to connect their work with their beeing gay or of this > and that race. > This issue of gay identity reminds me of something that may (or may not) be pertinent: I remember reading an interview with Bob Ostertag, in Mondo 2000, where he claimed John Cage to have been gay. Well; maybe he was - it was news to me tho'. My personal feeling; in any case, it was John Cage's own private business - unless he himself chose to broadcast it. > > To me, this raises another question: has an artist to be politically > correct, or, put otherwise and more meaningful, morally correct in every > detail of his work, leaving aside the overall message? I don't think so... I think it raises another, even more pressing, question - the whole issue of personality politics in contemporary culture. Y'know; it is so much easier to market *identity* as the thing in itself. Zorn says something - in the Locus Solus liner notes - about what a crock this is. But, a couple years later... I got problems none with the Tzadik discs - both excellent releases. But I share the concern of some other listers - I'm not too sure if Gainsbourg wanted to be identified in this way. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:05:56 GMT0BST From: DR S WILKIE Subject: Re: Black music, Jewish music, ... First off, a recommendation: Don Byron's The Music of Mickey Katz, which is GREAT Jewish music (though probably few would find that description problematic because of the klezmer and the humour) Secondly, my love of jazz is love of a music that is firstly black music, but, equally, proletarian music (that's why I like the Beatles too); of course Beiderbecke is the exception that proves the rule, but the influential white jazz players didn't come from middle- class backgrounds. But all this was a long long time ago ... and I don't expect anyone's interested in the infelicities of "firstly, ... equally"??? I'd have preferred to take some time over this, but it often seems that particular discussions die away quite rapidly, and I've decided not to miss this boat entirely Sean - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:26:41 -0500 From: philz Subject: Re: Zorn a control freak? >On Monday I talked with Herb Robertson, and he mentioned that Zorn wouldn't >leave too much decisions to the musicians, and he disliked it. He said that >Zorn chooses people to play with him who, harshly formulated, do what he >says. Is that really so? You mean followers like Fred Frith? ;P philz - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:51:31 EST From: WINRECORDS Subject: Re: Don Cherry/Sonny Sharrock In a message dated 11/27/97 3:23:51 AM, you wrote: << > > If you can find it, ETERNAL RHYTHM by Don Cherry features Sonny Sharrock and > > was recorded in Nov. 1968 > > > > I don't know if this was ever released on cd, the copy I have is an lp (BASF > > 20680) > > It hasn't been released on disc, but damn sure should be. I believe this WAS released on CD about a year ago, in Europe only, on Verve (!) as a double CD with additional material. "The Wire" was giving it away as a freebie to new subscribers, even. But I can't find any reference to it on the Verve website. Can anyone help here? >> Funny, i literally JUST found this at Tower in Los Angeles the other day. It was a Japanese import on Polydor/MPS (POCJ-2520.) My guess is that perhaps it's being made available again. Features: Don Cherry, Albert Mangelsdorff, Eje Thelin, Bernt Rosengren, Sonny Sharrock, Karl Berger, Joachim Kuhn, Arlid Andersen, Jacques Thollot. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:36:19 EST From: chasinthetrane@juno.com (James T Graves) Subject: RE: Marc Ribot at KF Ribot is playing with Los Cubanos Postitos on those dates, but not in the main space or the alterknit, he'll be the first to play the Knitfact's new space, the old office. I also believe there is also December third show in the same space. Jamie - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:41:29 GMT From: "Ockham's stubble" Subject: Re: Re Great Jewish Music/Radical Jewish Culture interesting to see such a straightforward expansion of the plunderphonics idea so hotly contested. - -b - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:52:05 -0800 From: xander@sirius.com Subject: Don Byron on NPR's Fresh Air today. It's a re-run from January, with Don's Bug Music Ensemble performing in the Fresh Air studios. I found it pretty enjoyable. Tomorrow Terry's got Hal David (Bacharach's lyricist partner). Probably a re-run as well. Alexander .Radio Khartoum. www.algonet.se/~elegans/radiok/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:06:21 -0500 From: Rich Williams Subject: Re: Jewish Music / Black Music/ Gay music James Douglas Knox wrote: > This issue of gay identity reminds me of something that may (or may not) > be pertinent: I remember reading an interview with Bob Ostertag, in Mondo > 2000, where he claimed John Cage to have been gay. Well; maybe he was - it > was news to me tho'. My personal feeling; in any case, it was John Cage's > own private business - unless he himself chose to broadcast it. Funny you should mention Cage in this context, as he is responsible for my coming to terms with my own homophobia. About 15 years ago, during a NY performance by Contra-bassist Joelle Leandre, an elderly gentlemen sat down next to me and struck up a conversation, I soon became uncomfortable with this mans attention, as he seemed, to me, to be somewhat effeminate, and I questioned his interest in me as somehow prurient. A few weeks later while watching PBS, who should appear on the screen, but this same gentleman, who was in fact; John Cage. As I retrieved my chin from the living room floor, I was dumbstruck by how my own biases and stereotypes had prevented me from perhaps getting to know someone whom I considered to be one of the great minds of the 20th century. A very important life-lesson, to be sure. What does this have to do with the current discussion?, well, other than the fact that Leandre's quartet included Zorn, Frith,and Tom Cora, it strikes me that most people tend to polarize around 1 of 2 points of view, that one must sepperate the artist from his art, and those that insist that you cant truly judge an artists work without taking into account their heritage,background etc. I cant really say where I stand, but I offer the above story simply to illustrate what can happen when personality politics overshadow artistic and/or intellectual considerations. Rich - -- Ignorance has a certain Charm, Stupidity does not. Frank Zappa - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:54:45 GMT From: "Ockham's stubble" Subject: Re: Jewish Music / Black Music/ Gay music the problem 's not separating, but clumping together; me, or is it getting a wee bit musty in here? - -b - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:09:52 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: new Frisell Todd Bramy wrote: > Since someone asked: > > The new Frisell CD "Gone, Just Like A Train" has a February release date In the U.S. it's now set for January 6, with some performances on the west coast around the same time. > We even hear a beautiful reworking of "Lookout for Hope" which is very appropriate And maybe my favorite track on the album. He also used this new arrangement on the Nashville Trio tour. > I was surprised to note Jim Keltner on drums, but he is actually a great choice. His roll style fits perfectly with the tone of this album. Keltner's done some really "out" work with Ry Cooder, but I had a hard time imagining him with Bill. You're right, it does work. Viktor Krauss is also a very fine musician. But someday I wish Bill would revisit a harder-edged guitar tone ... Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:37:29 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: Great Jewish Music irrelevent yet entertaining: Has anyone heard Harry Belafonte's version of 'Have Nigela' (<---sp?)? - -jascha - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #180 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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