From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Monday, December 01, 1997 12:39 AM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #181 Zorn List Digest Monday, December 1 1997 Volume 02 : Number 181 In this issue: - Re: ruins (zorn-list query) Re: Jewish Music / Black Music/ Gay music getting the fullest possible "depth" (was: Jewish Music/etc.) japanese noise Re: japanese noise Re: Nyman Re: Jewish Music / Black Music/ Gay music Re: Nyman Re: japanese noise/ruins Down Home . . . Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #179 Mailorder Re: Zorn a control freak Banquet Re: Down Home . . . cobra Re: getting the fullest possible "depth" (was: Jewish Music/etc.) Re: cobra Re: cobra Douglas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:41:10 GMT From: "Ockham's stubble" Subject: Re: ruins (zorn-list query) finally. otomo yoshide and ruins tonight (8.30pm) at maison de la culture frontenac (2550 rue ontario est; metro frontenac, ligne vert). info: 872-7882, or 277-1563. yup, these guys are true mainstream in our fair town (which at this moment looks like a shaken christmas ornament, complete with disenfanchised trembling behind the firs). - -b - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 07:51:56 -0700 From: dennis summers Subject: Re: Jewish Music / Black Music/ Gay music A side note to all of these various subjects we've been covering of late. In the visual arts world there is currently something of a controversy regarding the works of gay artists like Robert Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns. Although people sensitive to "gay" aspects of the work have had clues for years, and RR never really hid his homosexuality, the critical community bay and large refuses to address the relevance of their sexuality to their artwork. This is most evident in the current RR retrospective. Most critics feel that the sexual orientation of these artists had no influence on their work, yet a few critics are beginning to point out some of these influences. Now all of this is interesting in light of the _context_ that is so important in our understanding of any artwork (incl. music). One can argue that without appreciating all of the context for the work, we are not getting the fullest possible "depth" out of that work. Others may argue that in picking out the "gayness" in art, we lose the "universality" that makes great artwork great. I side with the former. However, when addressing the issue of jewish identity this becomes more problematic. Because while I don't believe that being gay is a "lifestyle choice," it can't help but be part of one's self identity. Where being jewish according to the Nazis might be an irrovacable identity, for most people they have some say in how they define their own jewish identity. Look at Madeline Albright, is she jewish? If she were a musician would she be part of Zorn's great Jewish music, only after she discovered her background but not before? As others here have already mentioned, I think that JZ is very purposefully drawing attention to jewish identity in a political manner. I would argue that it is simply not very clearly thought out. If neither the musician nor any critical assesment draws any relationship between the work and the "jewishness," than to me it becomes a moot issue, and frankly a totally arbitrary one on JZ's part. Obviously being black, certainly in this country, is an aspect of one's identity with an influence difficult to ignore. I would argue that for many in this polarized country, being white is in part defined as not being black. However, although many black musicians accept that their color has influenced their work, their must be (or there will be, I'm no music historian) black musicians for whom their color (that is all of the socio-political-economic influences which usually but not always affect blacks in this country) really has not influence on their work. And if they were in a series called great black music I'd argue that that is totally inapproriate and arbitrary. Ok, I'm tired of hearing myself talk. yours in zornocity --ds ***Quantum Dance Works*** ****http://ic.net/~denniss**** - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:33:40 GMT From: "Ockham's stubble" Subject: getting the fullest possible "depth" (was: Jewish Music/etc.) ever read the story "pierre menard, author of don quixote" by jl borges? - -b - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:42:24 -0500 From: labuser Subject: japanese noise can anyone recommend some good japanese noise artists. i have a friend going to japan who is looking for noise artists while there. thanks- jason - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:32:26 -0500 (EST) From: Gauthier Michelle A <7mag2@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: japanese noise Hey, how about some of this: - -Masonna - -Merzbow - -Aube - -Incapacitants - -Hanatarash - -Boredoms - -UFO or DIE - -Omoide Hatoba - -Ruins - -Melt Banana (cute noise!) That is a good start. I'm sure there are plenty of others your friend could catch in Japan. M On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, labuser wrote: > can anyone recommend some good japanese noise artists. i have a friend > going to japan who is looking for noise artists while there. thanks- > jason > > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:16:20 -0800 From: Michael Howes Subject: Re: Nyman >While people are talking about this guy, what does everyone think of his >soundtrack work? Incidentally, is there any link between him and Zorn apart >from that there are some mild similarities in their output? I don't see a single similarity between two... Since nobody else actually responded...... While his soundtrack work isn't as nearly as enjoyable as his other work the early soundtracks are worth a listen. The ones worth checking out...."The Kiss and Other Movements", "Prospero's Books", "Drowning by Numbers", "A Zed and Two Noughts", and "the Cook the Thief His Wife & Her Lover". "6 Days 6 Nights", "the Piano", "Carrington", and "Gattica" are really worthless. Those are the only soundtracks I've heard by him.... A solid disc that touches on a few of my favorite pieces is "Live", which includes pieces from "The Draughtsman's Contract", "Water Dances", and "The Upside-Down Violin". There is also a performance with a Moroccan group on the "The Upside-Down Violin" that is really great. I tend to like the non-soundtrack stuff more, "Time Will Pronounce", "Noises, Sounds & Sweet Airs", "After Extra Time" , plus the first record on Piano Records are really places to start. mike mhowes@best.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:47:01 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Jewish Music / Black Music/ Gay music On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, dennis summers wrote: > However, when addressing the issue of jewish identity this becomes > more problematic. Because while I don't believe that being gay is a > "lifestyle choice," it can't help but be part of one's self identity. Where > being jewish according to the Nazis might be an irrovacable identity, for > most people they have some say in how they define their own jewish identity. Surely this is at least as true for people defining their gay identity. > As others here have already mentioned, I think > that JZ is very purposefully drawing attention to jewish identity in a > political manner. I would argue that it is simply not very clearly thought > out. If neither the musician nor any critical assesment draws any > relationship between the work and the "jewishness," than to me it becomes a > moot issue, and frankly a totally arbitrary one on JZ's part. I think I understand what Zorn's doing here differently than you. I don't see him as acting as a critic, but as an artist. That means he doesn't need to be entirely clear (or even have a definite view); it's the job of the audience to figure things out for ourselves. And it's obviously not entirely arbitrary because the musicians he's selecting are Jewish. If he comes out with a collection of Toru Takemitsu interpretations, that'll be arbitrary. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:41:39 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Nyman > >While people are talking about this guy, what does everyone think of his > >soundtrack work? Incidentally, is there any link between him and Zorn apart > >from that there are some mild similarities in their output? > > I don't see a single similarity between two... > Since nobody else actually responded...... Ok, I think I proved my point. I got 2 responses like this, so I must ask (more forcefully this time) why the hell was everyone talking about him when there is no link between him and the man who this list is meant to be about? Just a note, when I said "mild similarities" I meant that both have written for soundtracks as well as stand-alone work, both are male, both are human beings, etc. If these aren't mild similarities then I don't know what are. Now I would understand your response if I had actually written "obvious, fucking huge similarities". - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 06:19:03 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: japanese noise/ruins >On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, labuser wrote: >> can anyone recommend some good japanese noise artists. i have a friend >> going to japan who is looking for noise artists while there. Ms. Gauthier jumped in and proposed: >-Masonna >-Merzbow >-Aube >-Incapacitants >-Hanatarash >-Boredoms >-UFO or DIE >-Omoide Hatoba >-Ruins >-Melt Banana (cute noise!) While I personally wouldn't call the last five "noise" artists, they all would be great to see live. Melt Banana & the Boredoms are amazing! And for anyone who wants to catch the Ruins in either Toronto or Chicago, here are some dates on short notice: Sat. 11/29 Club Shanghai - 247 Spadina Ave. Toronto (10 pm show w/ Otomo) Sun. 11/30 Lounge Ax - 2438 N. Lincoln Chicago >I'm sure there are plenty of others your friend could catch in Japan. Such as: Hijokaidan Violent Onsen Geisha C.C.C.C. Gerogerigegege Monde Bruits (I think Iwasaki is doing ambient/techno stuff now) MSBR Seed Mouth Pain Jerk Kazumoto Endo/Killer Bug K2 Thirdorgan Government Alpha and: Solmania (guitar noise) Dissecting Table (percussive mayhem) Der Eisenrost (metal percussion ensemble) K.K. Null (unique guitar abuse/treatments) S*Core (darkambient/soundtrack 'noise') - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:49:11 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Shepherd Subject: Down Home . . . Who was it that told me that "Down Home" (Joey Baron w/ Frisell, Carter, etc.) was any good? They lied to me! I felt like I had accomplished something when I found this @ Tower in Nashville, but it would sound more at home in the background of the Weather Channel than in Baron's discography. At least one enthusiastic (and $16 poorer) thumb down! - Mike "It's only romantic 'cause it never works." - Harriet the Spy ********************************* Mike Shepherd rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu Middle Tennessee State University (615) 898-3652 ********************************* - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 20:55:07 -0500 (EST) From: "David J. Strauss" Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #179 > Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 06:43:57 -0500 > From: Glenn_Lea@avid.com > Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #178 > > > > If you can find it, ETERNAL RHYTHM by Don Cherry features Sonny > > > Sharrock and was recorded in Nov. 1968 > > > > > > I don't know if this was ever released on cd, the copy I have is an > > > lp (BASF 20680) > > > > It hasn't been released on disc, but damn sure should be. > > I believe this WAS released on CD about a year ago, in Europe only, on > Verve (!) as a double CD with additional material. "The Wire" was > giving it away as a freebie to new subscribers, even. But I can't find > any reference to it on the Verve website. Can anyone help here? Actually, it was _Eternal NOW_ that was re-released on CD. It was originally on Antilles. A superior LP to _ER_, but Sharrock-free (and trumpet-free, practically), alas. DS djs2852@is.nyu.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:38:14 -0500 From: Tom Pratt Subject: Mailorder Here is something you all might be interested in. It came from a post from O.O. Discs to the Silence list (john Cage list). If you are interested, you should respond to . Here it is: - ---------------------------- In light of the current discussion about mail-order and the CD situation in general, readers may be interested in the following. A one-year initiative has been evolving that has included over 20 independent CD companies working in the area of new music. This loosely constructed, "Consortium of Independent Record Producers" has come together to attempt to deal with direct mail and mail order in some meaningful way. With the application of direct mail communications the group has been issuing a catalog of new music releases every two months for the past year with modest results. The mailings have generally been in the 15-18,000 persons range. The most recent catalog went out at the beginning of November and we are beginning to see results from this work. The catalog has more than 175 new music discs listed from 15 different companies. The catalog is far beyond what any one company can be doing in either regularity of mailing and number of copies that are sent out. We are planning to evaluate this work at the end of January to see if it is worth continuing to issue the catalog. Among the participants have been Artifact, CRI, Deep Listening, Einstein, Frog Peak, Knitting Factory, Lovely Music, New World, OO Discs, Tellus, NonSequitur, and others. If you are interested in receiving the catalog or an occasional e-mail announcement about new releases, please send us e-mail. If there are others who may be interested in this information please forward it. thanks, Joseph Celli O. O. DISCS http://www.hear.com/o.o./ - ------------------------------- -Tom Pratt - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 03:11:44 -0500 (EST) From: IOUaLive1@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn a control freak In a message dated 97-11-27 06:23:51 EST, you write: > From: Friedrich Feger > Subject: Zorn a control freak? > > On Monday I talked with Herb Robertson, and he mentioned that Zorn wouldn't > leave too much decisions to the musicians, and he disliked it. He said that > Zorn chooses people to play with him who, harshly formulated, do what he > says. Is that really so? This sounds pretty accurate to me... Zorn surrounds himself with down to earth, nice people. Look at every one in Masada. They are all extremely nice guys. Same goes for everyone in Naked City. And everyone else he's been playing with lately.. Anthony Coleman, Marc Ribot... these are all great musicians of the highest caliber, but why is it you dont see Zorn paired with someone like Cecil Taylor? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, (I'm not calling anyone a control freak..) it just seems that Zorn mostly works with easy going-type people. Jody - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:25:21 -0500 From: Tom Pratt Subject: Banquet I picked up Mark Dresser's BANQUET (TZ 7027), a Tzadik new release, the other day so I thought I'd share some thoughts with you all. First off, the cover art is really beautiful. In the liner notes, it's credited to "Ligorano/Resse". ????? Anyway, the disc has two of Mark Dresser's chamber works - "Banquet" and "Loss of the Innocents". It's comparable in style to Arcado String Trio or Erik Friedlander's Chimera. However, they never peak in their intensity and I find the compositions to be fragmented and sort of weak due to the improv. I was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on this one? Regardless, Dresser's solo album 'Invocation' is one of the finest solo bass albums I've ever heard. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:52:32 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Down Home . . . >>Who was it that told me that "Down Home" (Joey Baron w/ Frisell, Carter, >>etc.) was any good? They lied to me! > >>At least one enthusiastic (and $16 poorer) thumb down! - Mike A hearty ditto from my thumb as well. s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:31:44 -0600 From: noah Subject: cobra Can anyone refer me to a text version of the rules/parameters for Cobra? Also, any recommended recordings other than that double disc from circa '91? thanks in advance, Noah - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:54:25 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: getting the fullest possible "depth" (was: Jewish Music/etc.) Subject: getting the fullest possible "depth" (was: Jewish Music/etc.) >ever read the story "pierre menard, author of don quixote" by jl borges? >-b I've been off list for the holidays, but I have read this short story. How's it connected to this thread? s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:09:05 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Shepherd Subject: Re: cobra On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, noah wrote: > Also, any recommended recordings other than that double disc from circa > '91? I have the Live from the Knit cd and I think that it is pretty cool. But I was curious about this myself. I've had the opportunity to buy the Tokyo Operations 94 (84?) disc a coupla times, but I've been unsure as to my enjoyment. And after Nani Nani and Filmworks VII, I've been even more cautious. "It's only romantic 'cause it never works." - Harriet the Spy ********************************* Mike Shepherd rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu Middle Tennessee State University (615) 898-3652 ********************************* - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:07:10 -0600 From: "Petsitter" Subject: Re: cobra - ---------- > From: noah > To: zorn-list > Subject: cobra > Date: Sunday, November 30, 1997 7:31 PM > > Can anyone refer me to a text version of the rules/parameters for Cobra? > Also, any recommended recordings other than that double disc from circa > '91? > > thanks in advance, > Noah > I only have Cobra: Live at the Knitting Factory, but I would recommend it. > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:38:01 +0100 From: Yves Dewulf Subject: Douglas The new Mike Patton is born: it is .... Dave Douglas Yes, at an amazing Dave Douglas/Han Bennink- gig last friday, Douglas was singing and screaming in his microphone, using a table full of effect devices. He also played his trumpet through these effects: sounding sometimes like Jon Hassel, sometimes like the seventies Miles and sometimes like a plane-crash. He also used tapes and CD-players. This was a yet an other, very unusual side of this great artist (much to the surprise of the audience that was expecting Masada-tunes) YVes - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #181 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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