From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 8:59 AM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #183 Zorn List Digest Wednesday, December 3 1997 Volume 02 : Number 183 In this issue: - By the way . . . Re: Down Home . . . Re: Butch Morris Box Re: getting the fullest possible "depth" (was: Jewish Music/etc.) yoshihide-tetrault/ruins Re: Down Home . . . masada box set Re: Down Home . . . Down Home Down Home Re: Down Home Morris' Conduction bob ostertag bob ostertag & secret chiefs RE: Down Home Butch Morris Box Re: Butch Morris Box Re: Butch Morris Box Re: Butch Morris Box Re: Down Home . . . Re: Butch Morris Re: Down Home ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:18:57 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Shepherd Subject: By the way . . . Does anyone know anything about the status of the proposed Masada boxed set? I can't find anything about it anywhere! - Mike "It's only romantic 'cause it never works." - Harriet the Spy ********************************* Mike Shepherd rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu Middle Tennessee State University (615) 898-3652 ********************************* - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:26:52 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Down Home . . . >>Could anyone be more specific about why this disc sucks? I ask because >>I'd been considering picking it up based on the lineup, and I don't know >>if the naysayers just don't care for Blythe, or it's deeply flawed, or ... >>what? >> >>Chris Hamilton I don't like it for all of the reasons Ashley does like it. If grooves and funky and r'n'b played by that lineup are your cup of tea, go for it. Otherwise, beware. >It's sad and somewhat ironic, but I've found that many fans devoted to the >avant-garde, noisy, improvising end of the spectrum tend to be quite >narrow-minded and rigid in their tastes. Certainly much, much more so than >most of the musicians themselves. You know, it's like religion. But I don't >know if this applies to Mike or s~Z. >Ashley I love what I love with a passion, and I am indifferent to music that doesn't move me. Why is it sad if my bandwidth of pleasure is narrow compared to someone else's. I can't even come close to procuring everything I like. If I expand my interests, I'm just increasing the number of desired recordings/performances I can't experience. s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:51:15 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Butch Morris Box >I'd be interested in other people's comments on Morris' conductions. > >=dgasque= I've never tired of listening to Morris' DUST TO DUST, one of my all-time favorites. I have CONDUCTIONS 28/31. 28 was recorded in Japan. 31; in Italy. The performances are stunning to my ears. Morris' style of conduction/composition is so in sync with the performing styles of the myriad of players. The compexity of the works makes for rewarding repeated listening. Morris is up there with Braxton in terms of transcending the genre. It would/will take me years to listen to the entire box. I'm almost ready to buy another disc in the collection. s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:12:46 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: getting the fullest possible "depth" (was: Jewish Music/etc.) > ever read the story "pierre menard, author of don quixote" by jl borges? > -b yes. good point. - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:39:01 GMT From: "Ockham's stubble" Subject: yoshihide-tetrault/ruins phenomenal show; very tangible communication between martin & otomo at a reasonable pace, rare longueurs taxing the attention, perhaps one or two only, the piece mightn't stand up to mere listening, tho'---talk to me about the beauty of merzbow; ruins' set was exactly what you'd expect (or so i thought, saturday evening a brave new waves programmer told me she was totally unprepared for the experience): prog rock debris collage with suitably intelligible lyrics and jaw-dropping execution---predictable, that is, with the possible exception of demeanor. -b - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 14:50:22 -0500 From: "Chris Barrett" Subject: Re: Down Home . . . i actually have a completely different take on the cd. It's pretty straight blues based playing, slightly funky in a way reminiscent of Maceo. I haven't heard a lot Ron Carter's bas playing, but this is about as funky as I've ever heard him. Everyone's playing is extremely understated and restrained. Personally I like it a lot, but it is very very "in". - -Chris > > >On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Mike Shepherd wrote: > >> At least one enthusiastic (and $16 poorer) thumb down! - Mike > >Could anyone be more specific about why this disc sucks? I ask because >I'd been considering picking it up based on the lineup, and I don't know >if the naysayers just don't care for Blythe, or it's deeply flawed, or ... >what? > >Chris Hamilton > > > >- > > > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:46:36 -0500 (EST) From: 655321 Subject: masada box set forced exposure says that the masada box will certainly not be out this year, and it isn't slated for january; so the earliest it could come out is march '98. there has been no official word from tzadik at all. - -a. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:30:53 -0500 From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Re: Down Home . . . Mike Shepherd wrote: >I'll try not to react to the narrow minded comment . . . Well, I didn't exactly accuse you of this. . . just a passing thought. . . > >The thing with Down Home was not that it was not avant garde enough for my >taste. It goes beyond that. . . There is so much half-assed clean as a >whistle "jazz" out there already. This antiseptic, soulless stuff that >just plugs along according to the numbers, follows the same old changes as >everything else that comes out every week. And maybe its just me, but >this disc was just not interesting. The adjectives that you use to describe this record tell me that either you haven't really "listened" to it or that your dislike of the overall genre is so accute that you really can't differentiate well. Records like "Down Home" aren't being released every week, Mike, unless I'm really out of the loop. Can you clue me in on four or five others that I might check out? Soulless. . . antiseptic. . . sorry pal but you're mistaken. >My sole exposure with Joey _is_ so-called avant garde stuff (Barondown, >Masada, Naked City, to a lesser extent Douglas' In Our Lifetime) but I >knew that with Ron Carter on board, the experience would most likely be >something altogether different. I was prepared for something different, >but what I ended up with was this very bland, guitar/alto stuff with >_unexceptional_ rhythm work from Baron and Carter. I didn't know what to >expect from this disc, but even my dad doesn't like this stuff! Unexceptional rhythm work. . .mmm, well, whatever. . . you're certainly welcome to your opinion. But what does your dad know thay should make me care what he thinks? Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:32:25 -0500 From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Down Home s~Z wrote: >I don't like it for all of the reasons Ashley does like it. If grooves and >funky and r'n'b played by that lineup are your cup of tea, go for it. >Otherwise, beware. Fair enough. >>It's sad and somewhat ironic, but I've found that many fans devoted to the >>avant-garde, noisy, improvising end of the spectrum tend to be quite >>narrow-minded and rigid in their tastes. Certainly much, much more so than >>most of the musicians themselves. You know, it's like religion. But I don't >>know if this applies to Mike or s~Z. > >>Ashley > >I love what I love with a passion, and I am indifferent to music that >doesn't move me. Why is it sad if my bandwidth of pleasure is narrow >compared to someone else's. I can't even come close to procuring everything >I like. If I expand my interests, I'm just increasing the number of desired >recordings/performances I can't experience. Well, it definitely strikes me as sad if what you like is limited to what you are able to procure. But thats just my opinion. It's not sad enough to actually make me cry. Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:42:49 -0500 From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Down Home > It's sad and somewhat ironic, but I've found that many fans devoted to the > avant-garde, noisy, improvising end of the spectrum tend to be quite > narrow-minded and rigid in their tastes. > Ashley >diamanda galas has complained about this, too, but i don't know if she >meant it, or was simply trying to garner interest in 'the singer'. odd >use of ironic. where's the deduction for the oft uspoken assumption on >this list that purveyors of the avant-garde will (or are more likely >to) be more open/critical minded than purveyors of nasty dross? (that >is, besides "'raw team!") >-b >(odd use of sad, but the puntuation sig guy's already down your >throat and at any rate, i'm limp from the above.) I like to think of it as a poetic use of sad, but perhaps that's odd. . . at any rate I suspect that Diamanda meant it. I suppose it is rather naive to think that any audience will be all that much different from another. It would be nice to think that those interested in the "avant-garde" are interested out of an openness to experience and an interest in expanding their awareness of things. But I suppose, more often than not, it is, as I posted earlier, a religion. . . with all the accompanying dogmas and commandments. In the case of the avant-garde, it helps create the appropriate life-style soundtrack for the "outsider" much as Kenny G and "smooth" jazz do for the yupsters. I'm sorry to have expected more. I was just wallowing in momentary wash of idealism. It didn't last long. Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:52:33 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Down Home It >would be nice to think that those interested in the "avant-garde" are >interested out of an openness to experience and an interest in expanding >their awareness of things. But I suppose, more often than not, it is, as I >posted earlier, a religion. . . with all the accompanying dogmas and >commandments. In the case of the avant-garde, it helps create the >appropriate life-style soundtrack for the "outsider" much as Kenny G and >"smooth" jazz do for the yupsters. I'm sorry to have expected more. I was >just wallowing in momentary wash of idealism. It didn't last long. > >Ashley Wow, who are these avant-gardists you are referring to? s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:26:33 -0800 From: Todd Bramy Subject: Morris' Conduction >I've had this "Conduction" box since the day of its release, and i'm only now >finding the time to really listen to it in proper fashion (IOW, not as >background music.) I don't have it in front of me, so I can't give the volume >IDs, but i've listened to one of the American performances and one from Japan. >Brilliant stuff- at times reminds me of Eno's experiments in "accidental" >music in the 70's, but in truer context than Eno's attempts. I'd be >interested in other people's comments on Morris' conductions. > >=dgasque= I have Conduction 15 and just love it. Some of it is very noisy, but it never stops sounding cohesive and is mostly quite beautiful. I know that is a very general remark, but it fits. Todd Bramy tbramy@oz.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:38:18 +0100 (MEZ) From: BJOERN Subject: bob ostertag i saw bob ostertag solo yesterday..... oh what an amazing concert...one of the best concerts i have ever seen in my whole life after the show i bought his new cd "like a melody, no bitterness" i dont know if that one was mentioned here before.. its just amazing!!!!!! you can order it from bob`s new website at: http://www.detritus.net/ostertag BJOERN - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:47:40 +0100 (MEZ) From: BJOERN Subject: bob ostertag & secret chiefs bob osteratg plays the release concert for his new cd at Bottom of the hill in San Francisco with the Secret chiefs (4 members of Mr. Bungle) as special guests.................. would someone please tape that BJOERN - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:40:04 +0000 From: Dwight Haden Subject: RE: Down Home >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:57:36 -0500 (EST) >From: Christopher Hamilton >Subject: Re: Down Home . . . > >On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Mike Shepherd wrote: > >> At least one enthusiastic (and $16 poorer) thumb down! - Mike > >Could anyone be more specific about why this disc sucks? I ask because >I'd been considering picking it up based on the lineup, and I don't know >if the naysayers just don't care for Blythe, or it's deeply flawed, or ... >what? > To me, this disc has the same feel and attitude as John Patton's Minor Swing. Great improv musicians playing R&B flavored "in" jazz for a change. Not having much of this type jazz in my collection, I find it enjoyable. I'll let other more knowledgeble types speak for it's musical antecedents and/or triteness... But I will say that Blythe is rather "restrained" in his blowing. Works for me though. Dwight Haden === dhaden@worldnet.att.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:55:34 -0700 From: dennis summers Subject: Butch Morris Box >'ve had this "Conduction" box since the day of its release, and i'm only now >finding the time to really listen to it in proper fashion (IOW, not as >background music.) I don't have it in front of me, so I can't give the volume >IDs, but i've listened to one of the American performances and one from Japan. >Brilliant stuff- at times reminds me of Eno's experiments in "accidental" >music in the 70's, but in truer context than Eno's attempts. I'd be >interested in other people's comments on Morris' conductions. Don't know how far afield we are with Butch Morris (less so I think than Nyman), but I've seen several Conduction discs individually, didn't know there was a box. I like Morris , but as these discs have been a bit pricy I've been hesitant. So I'd like to second Dgasque's question, and also get him to answer it. yours in zornocity --ds ***Quantum Dance Works*** ****http://ic.net/~denniss**** - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:23:16 -0500 (EST) From: Brent Burton Subject: Re: Butch Morris Box On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, dennis summers wrote: > Don't know how far afield we are with Butch Morris (less so I think than > Nyman), but I've seen several Conduction discs individually, didn't know > there was a box. I like Morris , but as these discs have been a bit pricy > I've been hesitant. So I'd like to second Dgasque's question, and also get > him to answer it. some of you may already know this, but the new issue of the wire has an article on butch morris, as well as jim o'rourke and faust features. b - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:15:37 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Butch Morris Box >>>>> "dennis" == dennis summers writes: dennis> Don't know how far afield we are with Butch Morris Not far at all, IMHO. Morris and Zorn are both trying to develop interesting answers to the group improvisation questions, including how one 'composes' such a piece (and what that means), how one communicates the composition both to the players and to the audience. Although I've never seen Morris or any of Zorn's game pieces, it seems from the recorded evidence and accompanying liner notes that they use very similar mechanisms. - --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions are not necessarily shared by management Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:30:01 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Butch Morris Box >Don't know how far afield we are with Butch Morris (less so I think than >Nyman), Since Morris appears on at least a couple of recordings with Zorn and on many with Zorn compatriots (Wayne Horvitz, Zeena Parkins, and others...and Michihiro Sato, Steve Beresford, Tom Cora, Han Bennink, Ikue Mori play on the one disk I have from the Box), I think we are safely on-topic. A review of Morris' discography might help: http://www.nwu.edu/wnur/jazz/artists/morris.butch/discog.html s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:46:53 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Shepherd Subject: Re: Down Home . . . You are taking this way too personally. I just don't like the record. Perhaps my feelings on the matter shouldn't have been put into words. I bought it, I was excited, I listened to it, and I didn't like it. That's that. - Mike "It's only romantic 'cause it never works." - Harriet the Spy ********************************* Mike Shepherd rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu Middle Tennessee State University (615) 898-3652 ********************************* - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:51:13 +0100 From: Stephane Vuilleumier Subject: Re: Butch Morris Butch Morris has given quite similar interviews recently to Avant4, Resonance 6/1 and Wire (November) on the occasion of the recent London conductions. Resonance 6/1 is a special number exploring the relation between composition and improvisation (Tim Hodgkinson was responsible for it), and it's a really good read on the subject. Zorn features too (a new version of an old 86 interview), as somebody already mentioned on this list a while ago. Stephane At 11:15 03.12.97 -0500, Caleb Deupree wrote: >>>>>> "dennis" == dennis summers writes: > > dennis> Don't know how far afield we are with Butch Morris > >Not far at all, IMHO. Morris and Zorn are both trying to develop >interesting answers to the group improvisation questions, including >how one 'composes' such a piece (and what that means), how one >communicates the composition both to the players and to the audience. >Although I've never seen Morris or any of Zorn's game pieces, it seems >from the recorded evidence and accompanying liner notes that they use >very similar mechanisms. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:56:50 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Shepherd Subject: Re: Down Home On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, ashley capps wrote: > I like to think of it as a poetic use of sad, but perhaps that's odd. . . > at any rate I suspect that Diamanda meant it. I suppose it is rather naive > to think that any audience will be all that much different from another. It > would be nice to think that those interested in the "avant-garde" are > interested out of an openness to experience and an interest in expanding > their awareness of things. But I suppose, more often than not, it is, as I > posted earlier, a religion. . . with all the accompanying dogmas and > commandments. In the case of the avant-garde, it helps create the > appropriate life-style soundtrack for the "outsider" much as Kenny G and > "smooth" jazz do for the yupsters. I'm sorry to have expected more. I was > just wallowing in momentary wash of idealism. It didn't last long. > > Ashley Let me be sure I am grokking what you are saying here, or trying to say. Do you mean to say that if a person doesn't like this record that they are closed-minded? Xenophobic? That this one record alone represents all other musics besides avant-garde jazz? You must REALLY like Down Home to be so insulting in your defense of it. I mean, it's a record. The beauty of music (if I could descend into cliche' for a moment here) is that there is something for everyone, and that not everything appeals to every listener. I would wager that I listen to musics that you find repulsive on a level that no one else could understand, but I would never call you closed minded on that account. I appreciate your point of view, but express it by defending the record, and not by attacking the records detractors. I'm not going to say anything else about this. - Mike "It's only romantic 'cause it never works." - Harriet the Spy ********************************* Mike Shepherd rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu Middle Tennessee State University (615) 898-3652 ********************************* - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #183 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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