From xmission.com!zorn-list-digest-request Fri Apr 19 14:38:13 1996 Return-Path: Received: from xmission.xmission.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0uANra-00044oC; Fri, 19 Apr 96 14:37 PDT Received: (from root@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id PAA08070; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:10:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:10:03 -0600 (MDT) From: zorn-list-digest-request@xmission.com Message-Id: <199604192110.PAA08070@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: zorn-list-digest Digest V96 #12 X-Loop: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com X-Mailing-List: archive/volume96/12 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Status: RO ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain zorn-list-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 12 Today's Topics: Re: Knit Taping [ denman@pipeline.com (Denman F. Maro ] Re: Knit Taping [ Gary Chesser ] Re: Knit Taping [NZC] [ Gary Chesser Cc: Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-Id: <199604161121.HAA10976@pipe9.nyc.pipeline.com> Why don't you buy some CD's instead? You'll get better quality audio and you'll be supporting the artists instead of ripping them off. On Apr 16, 1996 18:47:51, '"D.J. Toman" ' wrote: >Hi Y'all, > >I just got a DAT machine (well, two to be able to trade) and am eager to begin >trading soon. Unfortunately, I've only seen people lurking around the net >groveling for and trading Dead, Phish, God St. Wine, and all that stuff, or >Medeski, Martin & Wood at best. My interest in this (other than MMW) is zero. > >I'm wondering if anyone out there is taping Knit shows and such "downtown" type >music. I'm far more interested in creative improvised music such as will be >featured in the Knit's "What is Jazz?" festival (see the schedule at the Knit's >web site -- unbelievable!) than the rock-based aesthetic. > >I'll have some choice DATs (masters) to trade soon. However, I could accept HQ >analogs, too. > >Post to list or email me with any responses. > >Thanks, > >David in Taipei > > >_____________________________________________________________ Taipei, Taiwan > > >..."we advocate the independence of the Taiwanese nationality." -- Sun Yatsen >(1925) > >"Every damn one of them ought to be in jail. I'd like to live to see the day >they are." >-- Harry S. Truman on the extended Chiang Kai-shek clan >_____________________________________________________________ > -- Denman Maroney ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:30:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Gary Chesser To: "Denman F. Maroney" cc: "D.J. Toman" , zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Why don't you buy some CD's instead? You'll get better quality audio and > you'll be supporting the artists instead of ripping them off. > What if you have every Zorn Album AND CD but still need a fix that can only be supplied by trading bootlegs ?? Is it still unethical ? Peace to all, GDCII ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:16:30 CST6CDT From: SIPE@SCSLAB.UNT.EDU To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Take notes cd's Message-ID: The Digest is working again - HOOORAY! >Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:07:33 +500 >From: "Peter Risser" >To: zorn-list@xmission.com >Subject: Two Things >At a mail-order site, Take Notes (www.computek.net/tknotes), I saw a >listing >for Masada IV (along with 1-3,5,6). I assume, if he's listing it, he can >get it. I just thought I'd pass this info along for anyone who is >lamenting that they missed the freebie send-in opportunity and needs their >Masada fix. If anyone has any more info, please post. > >Thanks, >Pete I know the owner of Take Notes here in Dallas, and I'll give him a call this afternoon to clear it up for sure. I'm guessing that it's a mistake because often times he puts things on his catalog that he may not keep in stock, and I think he just overlooked Dalet (IV) assuming he could get all Masada CD's. Whoops. Chris Sipe sipe@scslab.unt.edu www.unt.edu/~cls0007 Creator of the UNT Percussion site: www.music.unt.edu/Percussion/Main.html "Make way for the Iron Sausage!" - Bald Headed John from Zappa's Joe's Garage ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:45:59 -0400 From: IOUaLive1@aol.com To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-ID: <960416164558_273396755@mail04> >Subj: Re: Knit Taping >Date: 96-04-16 07:41:02 EDT >From: denman@pipeline.com (Denman F. Maroney) >Resent-from: zorn-list@xmission.com >To: milesian@pristine.com.tw (D.J. Toman) >CC: zorn-list@xmission.com > >Why don't you buy some CD's instead? You'll get better quality audio and >you'll be supporting the artists instead of ripping them off. Why do you assume that he doesnt own all of Zorn's cd's? For all you know this guy has 2000 cd's in his collection. How do you know that he is not friends with Zorn? How do you know if he tapes shows with artists permission or not? - So who exactly do you think this gentleman is ripping off? How could he be ripping anybody off, he says he is looking to TRADE tapes, not sell them. Why don't you stop doing so much assuming. You know what Confucius says when you assume. IOUaLive1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:19:00 -0400 From: Knutboy@aol.com To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-ID: <960416181859_376708468@emout07.mail.aol.com> RIGHT ON! Since when did we all get so puritanical. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:31:30 -0400 (EDT) From: lgiven@julian.uwo.ca (Dan Given) To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-Id: <199604162331.TAA15686@julian.uwo.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What I find interesting about this discussion is that during the recent one on Naked City video tapes, someone suggested finding out what the musicians themselves thought. Now, when the topic of trading tapes of downtown musicians comes up, and one of them (Denman Maroney) speaks out against it he is accused of being puritanical for defending his right to have controp over his art, and make a living. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:37:32 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" To: Knutboy@aol.com Cc: zorn-list@xmission.com, proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-Id: <9604162237.AA23660@pdx144> On Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:19:00 -0400 knutboy@aol.com wrote: > > RIGHT ON! Since when did we all get so puritanical. Maybe we might inform the kids on the list that many grown up musicians frequent it and that words such as bootleg and taping mean more to them than just fucking up the system and showing their rebelious side to the face of society. I have personally nothing against taping shows. But let's try to avoid making this list a forum for such activities. Patrice. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 20:24:45 -0400 From: Barbichick@aol.com To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-ID: <960417202444_193226815@emout12.mail.aol.com> This is a good topic. Knit. Taping. Here's the argument: 1)The Knit is the coolest place to hear music in NYC. It's smoke free, almost every "seat" is good. the alcohol is affordable. The employees are friendly. The shows are inexpensive(if you don't think so, go to the Blue Note sometime). There is ample parking usually, not to mention a six dollar parking garage nearby. They sell reasonably priced CD's. They take credit cards. The give out free post cards.But most of all, they present the most unique music available in today's market. They also announce before the shows that there is to be no taping. 2)Since they are so cool, as stated in #1, why not honor their request?? Now that's a good argument against taping at the Knitting Factory. With regards to taping say, Judas Priest at the Madison Square Garden. Who cares, right? 3)Now here's the contradiction to really complicate #2. There is a guy I see at EVERY (that's every, really) Zorn show in the front row with a microphone and a microphone stand taping the show with what appears to be a cheap beat up tape deck. He hides this from no one, and it is clearly visible to the KNit staff, as well as Zorn. SO WHAT'S THE DEAL???????????????????? I say, if you cannot live without some primitive, non-professional, noisey, unmixed, audience recording(you know, the one's with the guy you can hear in the next seat going "wow" look at that!!" "that was Awesome" "I'm out of beer") Then go ahead and tape the show. Until I see the Knit. stop the above mentioned guy in #3 from blatantly taping, go ahead. Smuggle your DAT recorders in to record Zorn. But really, you should only be taping Zorn illegally if you've aquired every entry from PAtrice's complete discography. Love & Kisses- Barbi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:13:22 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" To: Barbichick@aol.com Cc: zorn-list@xmission.com, proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-Id: <9604180113.AA23382@pdx144.intel.com> On Wed, 17 Apr 1996 20:24:45 -0400 barbichick@aol.com wrote: > > This is a good topic. Knit. Taping. Here's the argument: > > 1)The Knit is the coolest place to hear music in NYC. It's smoke free, almost > every "seat" is good. the alcohol is affordable. The employees are friendly. > The shows are inexpensive(if you don't think so, go to the Blue Note > sometime). There is ample parking usually, not to mention a six dollar > parking garage nearby. They sell reasonably priced CD's. They take credit > cards. The give out free post cards.But most of all, they present the most > unique music available in today's market. > > They also announce before the shows that there is to be no taping. > > 2)Since they are so cool, as stated in #1, why not honor their request?? > > Now that's a good argument against taping at the Knitting Factory. With > regards to taping say, Judas Priest at the Madison Square Garden. Who cares, > right? > > 3)Now here's the contradiction to really complicate #2. > There is a guy I see at EVERY (that's every, really) Zorn show in the > front row with a microphone and a microphone stand taping the show with what > appears to be a cheap beat up tape deck. He hides this from no one, and it is > clearly visible to the KNit staff, as well as Zorn. > > SO WHAT'S THE DEAL???????????????????? I guess it is Bruce Gallanter. Everybody knows him (and specially the musicians). He got a life authorization to tape *EVERY* Zorn shows a long time ago :-). > I say, if you cannot live without some primitive, non-professional, noisey, > unmixed, audience recording(you know, the one's with the guy you can hear in > the next seat going "wow" look at that!!" "that was Awesome" "I'm out of > beer") Then go ahead and tape the show. Until I see the Knit. stop the above > mentioned guy in #3 from blatantly taping, go ahead. Smuggle your DAT > recorders in to record Zorn. But really, you should only be taping Zorn > illegally if you've aquired every entry from PAtrice's complete discography. > > Love & Kisses- Barbi > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Jesse Canterbury To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Zorn/Frisell: good or bad???? Message-Id: <199604161530.LAA18266@magnet.fsu.edu> Content-Type: text On Sat, Apr 13, '96, jk@ritz.mordor.com said: > anyway, what everyone's really concerned with - the performance. i felt > that frisell really took a lot away from the vibe the band was trying to > give off... > ... solo throughout the night but, except for the last song of the > set, his solos really led nowhere. Or, to paraphrase, it was lame. In apparent contradiction, IOUaLive1@aol.com said: > It was a great evening. For anyone who is a Frisell fan, > trust me--it was incredible! He fit in and really added to the sound of the > band. Or, to paraphrase, it was great. What gives? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 06:40:59 -0400 From: denman@pipeline.com (Denman F. Maroney) To: "Patrice L. Roussel" Cc: Barbichick@aol.com, zorn-list@xmission.com, proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-Id: <199604181040.GAA12589@pipe10.nyc.pipeline.com> On Apr 17, 1996 18:13:22, '"Patrice L. Roussel" ' wrote: I would say you should only tape Zorn (or whomever) if you have both his and the venue's permission, you have bought all his prior releases, you intend to buy all his future releases, and you refrain from trading your recordings with anyone who does not also fulfill all these conditions. >> recorders in to record Zorn. But really, you should only be taping Zorn >> illegally if you've aquired every entry from PAtrice's complete discography. >> >> Love & Kisses- Barbi >> -- Denman Maroney ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:21:18 +0200 From: thomas.pettersen@ub.uio.no (Thomas Pettersen) To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: unsubscribe Message-Id: <199604181319.PAA09566@ulrik.uio.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" can someone unsubcribe me please? * http://www.cappelen.no/~gsteigan/tramhcpg.html * thomp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:35:30 +0200 (METDST) From: Torsten Nielsen To: zorn list Subject: magazines Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is there any good magazines on the New York Downtown scene? I'm also looking for good magazines on jazz, noise (mainly the japanese/asian scence), improvisation and stuff like that. Any good ideas? Jonas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:40:38 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" To: denman@pipeline.com (Denman F. Maroney) Cc: "Patrice L. Roussel" , Barbichick@aol.com, zorn-list@xmission.com, proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-Id: <9604181540.AA21873@pdx144.intel.com> Denman, On Thu, 18 Apr 1996 06:40:59 -0400 denman@pipeline.com wrote: > > On Apr 17, 1996 18:13:22, '"Patrice L. Roussel" > ' wrote: > > I would say you should only tape Zorn (or whomever) if you have both his > and the venue's permission, you have bought all his prior releases, you > intend to buy all his future releases, and you refrain from trading your > recordings with anyone who does not also fulfill all these conditions. Looks to me like the intersection of all these prerequisites is close to zero :-). Patrice. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:47:29 -0400 From: IOUaLive1@aol.com To: zorn-list@xmission.com cc: Barbichick@aol.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping Message-ID: <960418204728_378169148@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-04-17 20:38:27 EDT, you write: >This is a good topic. Knit. Taping. Here's the argument: > >1)The Knit is the coolest place to hear music in NYC. It's smoke free, almost >every "seat" is good. the alcohol is affordable. The employees are friendly. >The shows are inexpensive(if you don't think so, go to the Blue Note >sometime). There is ample parking usually, not to mention a six dollar >parking garage nearby. They sell reasonably priced CD's. They take credit >cards. The give out free post cards.But most of all, they present the most >unique music available in today's market. > > They also announce before the shows that there is to be no taping. Do they announce that before *every* show at the KF? No they don't. (Just trying to keep you honest :) And the announcement they usually make is "no recording without the permission of the artist." I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, I dont want anyone to think that I am a "b--tlegger"... >2)Since they are so cool, as stated in #1, why not honor their request?? > >Now that's a good argument against taping at the Knitting Factory. With >regards to taping say, Judas Priest at the Madison Square Garden. Who cares, >right? > >3)Now here's the contradiction to really complicate #2. > There is a guy I see at EVERY (that's every, really) Zorn show in the >front row with a microphone and a microphone stand taping the show with what >appears to be a cheap beat up tape deck. He hides this from no one, and it is >clearly visible to the KNit staff, as well as Zorn. > > SO WHAT'S THE DEAL???????????????????? As said before, that is Bruce from the downtown music gallery. Somebody from there used to post to this list. I think he gets into all the shows for free too. Membership does have its priveleges... > >I say, if you cannot live without some primitive, non-professional, noisey, >unmixed, audience recording(you know, the one's with the guy you can hear in >the next seat going "wow" look at that!!" "that was Awesome" "I'm out of >beer") Then go ahead and tape the show. Until I see the Knit. stop the above >mentioned guy in #3 from blatantly taping, go ahead. Smuggle your DAT >recorders in to record Zorn. I'm sure the downtown taping population will be glad to hear someone approves! >But really, you should only be taping Zorn >illegally if you've aquired every entry from PAtrice's complete discography. > *NOBODY* has every entry from Patrice's discography! Not one person on this planet. There are to many obscure things out there. Lets say somebody has every Masada cd, would it be ok for that person to tape a Masada show? Or, take for example the Zorn/ Patton duo gig. There is no cd of these two musicians playing in a duo format. So then would anybody have the right to tape that show? Or lets say the Masada show which had Frisell sitting in, and Anthony Coleman on two tunes. I guess one would have to have all the Masada cd's and every Frisell recording to be able to tape that one. And since Anthony Coleman was only guesting on two tunes, you would only need to own a couple of his recordings... The only reason we are having this discussion is because nobody knows exactly how Zorn feels about people taping his shows from the audience. (With some other artists it is clearly known, but we are talking about Zorn.) I think it is cool that people out there are so into his music that they would love to have an audience recording of him. And its harmless. I would guess that Zorn feels the same way. > > Love & Kisses- Barbi with sugar, Jody PS- what did anyone think of the Zorn/ Patton duo last night? I thought is was great, and I am thankful that my hearing is still intact.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 05:16:05 -1000 From: THE RAT To: zorn-list@xmission.com Subject: Robin Holcomb: Little Three Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII All this activity on the list, and I have yet to see any reaction to Robin Holcomb's latest disc, "Little Three." I haven't been able to stop playing it. In fact, "Wherein Lies the Good" is making me itch to get my piano technique back up to par to perform it. (Of course, that would take quite a bit of work.) I know acquiring scores to new pieces takes quite a sum of money, but I think I'm willing and/or crazy enough to make the investment. How can I get in touch with Holcomb's publishers about getting a score to some of these pieces? Fave tracks include both vocal pieces -- "The Graveyard Song" and "The Window" -- "Tiny Sisters" and "Wherein Lies the Good." Any other opinions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kimberly Fu told me to change my .sig, so I did. Duran Duran "Gossip" FAQ * Greg Bueno The Zero * The End of the World bueno@Hawaii.edu http://www2.hawaii.edu/~bueno ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:48:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Gary Chesser To: "Denman F. Maroney" cc: "Patrice L. Roussel" , Barbichick@aol.com, zorn-list@xmission.com, proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping [NZC] Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I believe this thread should die a horrible death but I cannot leave it alone. With this said explain the following privatly to me off list so we do not bore the others. From a strictly historical perspective these "Bootlegs" tapes meet a rather large requirment. I would like to know every song that was played every day for any concert. I would also like know about every note practiced along w/ transcriptions. If I may make an analogy , think of rembrandt making paintings and he dies just before releasing his final works. Do we not release these to the public or do we release them. The same would be true of John Coltrane , Miles Davis or any artist. We learn and are inwardly pushed to learn more and more about these masters. Selling a Bootleg is wrong , immoral and illegal but the discographic purist is forced to acquire any sound he or she can from a Master in any way. Peace to all , Sorry for Spam Material, GDCII ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 06:21:28 -0400 From: denman@pipeline.com (Denman F. Maroney) To: Gary Chesser Cc: "Patrice L. Roussel" , Barbichick@aol.com, zorn-list@xmission.com, proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Knit Taping [NZC] Message-Id: <199604191021.GAA14730@pipe10.nyc.pipeline.com> On Apr 18, 1996 10:48:35, 'Gary Chesser ' wrote: > I believe this thread should die a horrible death but I cannot leave it alone. >With this said explain the following privatly to me off list so we do not bore >the others. > You ask me to reply off list yet you write to the list. So I reply to the list. It's not dead yet. > From a strictly historical perspective these "Bootlegs" tapes meet a rather >large requirment. I would like to know every song that was played every day for >any concert. I would also like know about every note practiced along w/ >transcriptions. I think bootlegs can serve history and still meet my requirements. If the artist does not want to be taped, he does not wish to serve history in that way. Brahms burned a lot of his scores. (Incidentally the person whose post prompted my remark, which started this thread, wrote back to me, privately, it seems, and said he did meet all the requirements.) > If I may make an analogy , think of rembrandt making paintings and he dies >just before releasing his final works. Do we not release these to the public or >do we release them. The same would be true of John Coltrane , Miles Davis or >any artist. We learn and are inwardly pushed to learn more and more about these >masters. Rembrandt was not a performer. > Selling a Bootleg is wrong , immoral and illegal but the discographic purist >is forced to acquire any sound he or she can from a Master in any way. > There are a lot of lousy tapes of Charlie Parker that I think we could do without. > > >Peace to all , Sorry for Spam Material, GDCII > > -- Denman Maroney ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:03:58 +0200 (METDST) From: Torsten Nielsen To: zorn list Subject: Zorn on MTV Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Did everybody know that MTV uses a Naked City tunes as a jingle? Jonas -------------------------------- End of zorn-list-digest Digest V96 Issue #12 ********************************************