From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 29 Sep 2000 12:50:48 PDT >Didacticism--in the negative sense that people say literature should >avoid--is when the author places the message above being honest with his >characters, his plot events, and with the reader. If the author is >manipulating his characters without regard to what they'd "really" do, >or manipulating the plot events without regard to whether it's >reasonable for such things to happen given the circumstances he's set >up, or is trying very hard to get the reader to see one specific >message, instead of letting the reader glean his own messages from the >story--THAT'S didacticism. Didacticism is when the desire of the author >to send a message exceeds his commitment to being honest with his story. But who decides when this is happening? And by this definition--that didacticism is the desire to send a message, superceding a desire to be "honest" with his/her story (whatever that means)--shouldn't we say that all satire is didactic (thus "bad")? Again, it seems to me to come down to how well the message is conveyed--not to whether or not there is a message, or a desire to send one. And it seems even more clear to me that charging a work with "didacticism" (as a bad thing) is more a reader's response than an objective statement of fact. One of my favorite teachers at BYU was the one many other students despised--isn't this like saying that one of my favorite works of art is the one that many others find "too didactic"? Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Premiere of "Sy's Girl" opens Pardoe Theatre Season at BYU: BYU Press Release Date: 29 Sep 2000 20:24:11 GMT > >Larry Jackson wrote: > > > "'Sy's Girl' is about the fantasies we all have about the ideal boy > > or girl, man or woman," said AdreAnn Sundrud, the director of the > > play who recently completed a master's degree in theatre and media > > arts at BYU. > >The fantasies we "all" have? Maybe the slavering unmarried at BYU, but some >of us have gratefully passed that point and have already found the ideal >other. > >I haven't seen this play, so it may not be what it's advertised to be, but, >if it is, hopefully it is a blip in the annals of LDS theatre. With all >that can be explored about our culture, religion, and history of a serious, >compelling, and dramatic nature, what prompts an LDS writer to spend 90 >pages talking about something so mundane as imaginary lovers? Please! >Someone's already explored date rape on campus, so maybe that's out, but >what about a play about contemporary gays at BYU (they do exist, you know). >Or the drama inherent in VOICE's near constant clashes with the >conservative BYU leadership. Or, if the BYU student must strike a comedic >tone, why not a farce dealing with academic freedom among the faculty? Or >the censorship of the Rodin exhibit? I'm with Thom on this one, because I've seen "Sy's Girl." The idea of it -- someone having an imaginary friend and then having to face reality -- seems good enough. Maybe not earth-shattering, and certainly not the universal thing Sundrud's quote seems to suggest, but a potentially entertaining play, anyway. The execution, however, is dreadful. The script, despite having been extensively workshopped, is full of problems, and two of the six actors are embarrassingly bad. (Fortunately, they have relatively small roles -- but not small enough.) In my opinion, it's an embarrassing beginning to BYU's theater season. My official review will be in Sunday's Daily Herald, if anyone's interested. Of course Thom knows that most of the ideas he suggested would never get performed on a main stage at BYU. But that doesn't mean no one should write them, even if they have to stay underground, or get performed somewhere else. (As for academic freedom among professors, what else COULD that be, besides a farce? :-) ) Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 29 Sep 2000 14:31:53 -0600 Rex Goode wrote: > Here is why I find myself undermotivated to finish my autobiography. Don't let that stop you. For a project I've been working on for years, I thought I had found out pretty much all there was about gays. I had come to what I thought was a firm conclusion that gays were "born that way" and that was the end of the discussion. Then I met you on the web, not on this list as I recall. As you explained about your life, a "non-practicing" gay man in a hetersexual marriage that was somehow working, I realized I didn't know everything about homosexuality. Here was Rex Goode, whose very existence was proof positive that neither Evergreen nor Affirmation had the final truth on what it means to be Mormon and gay. Please, Rex, finish your autobiography. The message of your life needs to be told. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] MN Premiere of "Sy's Girl" opens Pardoe Theatre Date: 29 Sep 2000 18:56:30 -0400 At 10:51 AM 9/29/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Larry Jackson wrote: > >> "'Sy's Girl' is about the fantasies we all have about the ideal boy >> or girl, man or woman," said AdreAnn Sundrud, the director of the >> play who recently completed a master's degree in theatre and media >> arts at BYU. > >The fantasies we "all" have? Maybe the slavering unmarried at BYU, but some >of us have gratefully passed that point and have already found the ideal >other. > >I haven't seen this play, so it may not be what it's advertised to be, but, >if it is, hopefully it is a blip in the annals of LDS theatre. With all >that can be explored about our culture, religion, and history of a serious, >compelling, and dramatic nature, what prompts an LDS writer to spend 90 >pages talking about something so mundane as imaginary lovers? Perhaps because the imagination interfering with life is a _common_theme approached by a variety of playwrights and authors in different ways ( ranging from _Blithe Spirit_ -imaginary?- to _Harvey_(okay, not exactly a lover but. . .)or the old one act _Overtones_. Please! >Someone's already explored date rape on campus, so maybe that's out, but >what about a play about contemporary gays at BYU (they do exist, you know). >Or the drama inherent in VOICE's near constant clashes with the >conservative BYU leadership. Or, if the BYU student must strike a comedic >tone, why not a farce dealing with academic freedom among the faculty? Or >the censorship of the Rodin exhibit? Perhaps because ulitmately these come out as parochial gripes about which some folks (Thom) get pretty agitated but which don't trouble others as much as insecurity, inability to cope with life on its own terms or other more universal themes. Indeed I think most of us have spent time dealing with fantasies about our futures which affect the way we live. Certainly it was a common theme for Shakespeare (Most common in the comedies but I think a case could be made that _Macbeth_ and _Lear_ are illustrations of fantasy shifting to a terrible and unexpected reality. >Thom Duncan > Obviously I haven't seen the play either (at least Thom can choose to see it if he wishes, but the current air-fares between Georgia and Utah are intimidating enough to make travel for one play unlikely) so the above comments are based on generalities.\ Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 29 Sep 2000 22:54:46 -0400 At 08:58 AM 9/27/00 PDT, you wrote: >Two of my pennies on the whole art and didacticism thread: > >We make value judgements. Inescapably. (Perhaps this might be redefined as >"taste" and called innate, a la Kant.) And our value judgements are ALWAYS >made from within an ideology (a world view). That ideology--even if partly >innate--is VASTLY affected by culture and societal influences. > >Presently, we live in a culture that has, for some time now, fostered an >ideology that facilitates, even necessitates, a resistance to "didacticism." >According to our general cultural value system, art should not be used to >teach. When it is, we look down on it, and call it "didactic." > >However, just as we cannot help but make value judgements, it seems to me >that art cannot help but teach...SOMETHING. It's always teaching something. >============================================= This may be a trip in pure semantics, but it seems to me you are blurring some important distinctions. A person may learn something from viewing art, just as he may learn something from looking at a vista. But does the vista teach? Certainly not with intent. An artistic creation is a form of commentary created by the artist. This is true. But the true artist creates, whether anyone observes the art or not, or whether or not anyone learns anything from it. This is a matter of indifference to the artist. Furthermore, different people may learn different things. This is also, OK. Or they may learn nothing. Or perhaps have their spirits lifted. Whatever. But the person who has didactic intent targets an audience, and has an agenda. They wish to invoke belief, affirm and confirm a point of view, often with an intent to exploit. True art is not exploitative. I think another significant distinction might have to do with sponsorship. Even artistic creations that have a message, and are intended to convince, if it comes from an individual, may still have value, and be non-exploitative, since we can know the source, and if necessary discount it. On the other hand, officially sponsored art, art that is under-written by governments or churches or other large, powerful organizations who seek to advance their agenda (and they all almost always do), must be held in suspicion. It usually reeks with didacticism. [Merlyn Clarke] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 30 Sep 2000 23:51:53 -0600 > Rex Goode said:> > > While I believe with all my heart that those men, apostles and prophets, > speak with the authority of God when they set standards of behavior, I > prefer to expend my energy living by those standards myself rather than > pontificating on how others ought to do the same. Rex, I wanted to tell you that your messages have made a difference in my life. Your honesty speaks to me. Thank you for your intelligent thinking on difficult issues. > > Somewhere behind all of the polemics are real people, making choices and > following their hearts. I would prefer to see literature that asks more > questions than it answers, because when it seeks to answer certain > questions, it moves from being artistic to political, in my opinion of > course. I believe that if art or literature can inspire the right questions, it can enact change in the world. Somehow being preached at makes us (me, at least) protest and feel a bit rebellious. We yearn to dialogue with authority, question, understand, make the rules internal rather than external. In our Sunday School class this past week, the teacher pointed out not only Christ's use of stories to teach, but also his repeated use of questions. Of course, Christ also sermonized and so do LDS church leaders. But I notice how President Hinckley often prefaces preaching with "We love you. I love you." Following one's heart to obedience is easier if one's heart is moving towards love. I overheard two men during the week talking about activity in the church. One was telling the other than if you grew up in the church, if you had heard the gospel preached, then at some level you knew it was true. If you then rebelled and refused to obey the commandments, you would go to hell. In other words, you have had your chance to hear the truth and you haven't responded, so you will be accountable/punished. I don't want to argue with that point of view as much as I do change the emphasis. It seems better to me to choose to live the commandments because we want to, because we feel the outpouring of God's love in our life, rather than because of fear of hell. So I wonder if didactic literature is psychologically fear-based? If the author-speaker is unconciously telling the reader that s/he can't be trusted to make decisions, that the best course is to follow. And therefore, in contrast, if open-ended, question-asking literature, sends the underlying message to the reader that he or she is trusted to think about the problem presented and come up with a good answer. Gae Lyn Henderson > > > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? (was: MN Premiere of "Sy's Girl") Date: 29 Sep 2000 23:58:16 -0600 Thom Duncan wrote: > With all > that can be explored about our culture, religion, and history of a serious, > compelling, and dramatic nature, what prompts an LDS writer to spend 90 > pages talking about something so mundane as imaginary lovers? > [A list of interesting suggestions follows.] Go for it, Thom. Write plays about those things, since you feel passionate about them. But if someone wants to write about imaginary lovers, why shouldn't they? The critic should be commenting on how successful an author was in accomplishing what the author wanted to accomplish. The critic should discuss whether the author took the subject and did something fresh and interesting with it. It's not the critic's business to dictate what subjects an author should feel passionate enough to write about. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) 90s plays Date: 01 Oct 2000 12:51:40 -0600 On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:48:58 -0600 Lee Allred writes: > > Bronson, Scott. "Quietus & Other Stories". BYU, 1996. Orson Scott > >Card stories. My friend (and fellow Lister), Lee Allred, points out: > Scott-- > > This has been buggin' me for a while. I think the above data is > slightly wrong. > > Wasn't this performed in 1997 (not 1996)? > > 'Quietus' was performed in conjunction with the symposium that Orson > Scott Card was a Guest of Honor. That was 1997. You know? The one > you co-chaired? This is true. > You might want to post the correction on the AML-List for the sake > of poor future archivists. Done. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jana bouck remy" Subject: [AML] Reviewer List Date: 01 Oct 2000 20:34:28 -0700 If you are on the reviewer list please make sure that you understand your responsibilites (as per the Review Guidelines ). If you have any questions you can email me privately or via the list address. Also, please send me your "snail-mail" address. Thanks, Jana Remy AML-List Review Editor ----------- _Worth Their Salt, Too_ Dave Allred _Falling Toward Heaven_ Quinn Warnick _The Dinner Club_ Andrew Hall _Missing Children_ Preston Hunter _Tomorrow and Always_ Debbie Wager - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 02 Oct 2000 08:20:33 -0500 I must say (speaking only for myself, not the List) that I think didactic art has received a bit of a raw deal in this discussion. Historically, I think this argument that "true" art is never didactic but is instead an expression of the artist's inner vision would not even have been recognized by writers before the Romantic period of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century. What, are we to conclude that none of the artists who lived before then--many of whom wrote unabashedly didactic literature--were really artists? Goodbye Milton, Dante, Vergil, Spenser, and a host of others. Not to mention some later writers such as Dostoevsky, who I believe wrote _Crime and Punishment_ largely as a vehicle for presenting a redemptive message. Melville, similarly. (And Thomas Hardy, whose didacticism in _Jude the Obscure_ left me largely cold when I read it for a college English class, because I didn't buy his indictment of society as sufficiently realistic--but many others whom I respect disagree with that assessment. I might disagree with it myself, if I took the time to read him again.) I think that on a practical basis, there's a great deal of truth to the notion that we reject stories that *strike* us as didactic, just as many of us feel a certain alienation from art that strikes us self-consciously artistic. The preferred style of the times, for most of the last 50 years, has been for morals (as in, "this is the moral of the story") to be muted. If you notice it, then it's viewed as a failure on the artist's part--either a failure of narrative (it doesn't arise naturally from the story as presented), or a failure of style (the author should have left it unstated but implicit), or a failure of message (I simply don't agree with what you're saying, or I think it's overly simplistic in its presentation). But that's only one style and one theory of literary creation, and there are many distinguished counterexamples that show it's by no means the only possible way of writing literature. Note also that each of these grounds for calling a work "didactic" involves a highly subjective element. For example, on what basis do you decide that a particular action in a story is not "natural" for a story? Clearly, that depends to a great degree on your own sense of what people are "really" like, which can get into all kinds of other areas such as sin and guilt and repentance and the divine potential of individuals that are a part of the spiritual and even religious worldview the reader takes to the story, not something that can be isolated as values-neutral "characteristics of good art." It also strikes me as true that all literature can be viewed as didactic, regardless of intent. I say "can be viewed as didactic" rather than "is didactic" because the latter statement seems to me to suggest that persuasion is the most fundamental level of literature, which in its own way seems just as reductionist as saying that didacticism is inherently bad. But it's always possible to look at a work of literature and analyze it on the basis of what values it seems to promote. Such analyses are disputable (as are all analyses in art), but the fact that they can be performed at all seems to me to attest that there is always some sort of moral dimension to art. But that's not the same thing as saying that all art has the same relationship to its intended (or unintended) moral message. My point is that there are many different types of literature, whose writers have held radically different opinions on the subject of what makes for good writing--all of which seemed to work for them. I share much of the modern taste that desires the "lessons" of literature to be subtle, complex, left for the reader to derive rather than overtly stated. But I think it's a bad idea to decide that didacticism makes for poor art, period--unless we're willing to define didacticism in a narrow, circular way as "intention to teach a message that makes for poor art" (so that anytime it doesn't make for poor art, it's not, de facto, didacticism). Which I think would obscure much of the potential value of the discussion. Jonathan Langford speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] HUGHES, _Children of the Promise_ (Review) Date: 02 Oct 2000 13:10:18 JST Author: Dean Hughes Series Title: Children of the Promise. Five volumes. Volume 1: Rumors of War. Volume 2: Since You Went Away Deseret Book. 1997, 1998 Review: I must say, I feel a bit left out of things. There are a couple of good reviews of the series in our AML review bank, but not much mention of it elsewhere on the list that I remember. I have taken my time about reading them. They are always prominently placed in Mormon book stores, and appear to be a big success. I like historical fiction, but I haven't been impressed with the works in that genre that Deseret and Bookcraft have published in the last few years. Also, the fact that the series has remained in hardback, and I haven't seen any in used book stores, has kept me from buying them. Well, I borrowed my parents' copies of the first two volumes last month and read them. And I say: This series is fantastic! Dean Hughes has done a huge, masterful job of creating a believable, engrossing, stirring, and even challenging epic of a work. I'm not going to have much reading time in the near future, but I will have to finish the series as soon as possible. The series appears to be a big success for Deseret Book. Have you other AML-listers read these books and not told us how great they are? Summary: A "Winds of War"-type epic about the Thomas family, a Salt Lake City family ripped apart by World War II. The first volume opens in 1938 with the all the family together, except the oldest son who is serving as a missionary in Germany. The volume focuses on the three oldest siblings as they struggle with their faith and gaining their own identity and independence from their beloved but over-bearing father. It ends with Pearl Harbor, and the family preparing to face the necessity of the children going to war. The second volume follows the three (then four) siblings through the war to 1944. The other major characters are a German family baptized by the oldest Thomas brother who are on the run from the Gestapo. Why do I like these books so much? Well, here are a few reasons: 1. They are emotionally compelling. That is, they make me laugh, and (especially as the series enters the war years), they make me cry. I have never been one to cry reading a book. But Hughes makes me care so much about these characters, and he gains my confidence that things were like this for the WWII generation, that I was emotionally bowled over at the end of both of the first two books. Now, I am very sensitive about artists trying to manipulate my emotions. If it feels forced, if I feel manipulated, I react pretty strongly about it. But very little (again, especially as it enters the war years) about these books seem manipulative to me. It feels real. 2. For a series published by Deseret Books, it doesn't skirt the hard issues. We see the war from many sides, including a good chunk of it through the eyes of the Schultzs, a German member family. American racism towards Japanese and Japanese-Americans is an important sub-theme throughout the books. There are two minor Japanese-American characters, and the main characters struggle with how to treat them, and how to react when others, including the US government, treat them inhumanely. The family patriarch's pained reaction to the transition of Utah culture from isolated and monolithically Mormon to something more cosmopolitan, including his wife going to work, was an eye-opener. Women fight for a greater say over their lives. The Thomas children struggle in differentiating faith from blind obedience to their parents. Hughes even brings up the anti-war sentiments of J. Rueben Clark. 3. Hughes did his homework. Eric Samuelsen recently mentioned how one young playwright's work failed because she didn't do her homework. Others have said that they avoid doing historical fiction because it takes so much work to get the background right. Hughes obviously put a lot of work into getting the period details correct. I'm a historian of the World War II years (although more about the Japan and China side), and the world that he portrays rings very true. He lists some of his references at the end of Book 2, and they include some very solid works, especially John Dower's "War Without Mercy," a tremendous look at racism in Japan and the US during the war, and the way it made the Pacific battles so much more brutal than many other theaters. 4. Hughes is obviously a pro. These are real page turners, but not in that "trash fiction" style that dominates the bestsellers-you know, all plot and no depth. Like Card, Hughes knows how to tell and engrossing story, without making the reader groan over the lame dialogue and improbable situations. His main characters may not be that complex, but they aren't cardboard either. As many of you know, he has written scores of children's books over the last thirty years or so, and he has obviously mastered the craft of telling a good story. 5. Nice artwork. Okay, this is not a big deal, but have you noticed that many of the Deseret Books books lately have had pretty impressive covers? Margaret Young and Darius Gray's One More River to Cross is another recent one with a very cool cover. In the most recent Dialogue (Fall 1999, the orange AML sponsored issue), Eugene England has an essay where he criticizes Signature and Bookcraft for their two recent short story collections, "In Our Lovely Deseret" and "Turning Hearts". He said both collections, one from the "left" and the other from the "right", are dominated by stories that are dishonest about its Mormon characters and situations, and thus unethical. At the end he mentions three recent "honorable exceptions" to this dishonest extremism-Doug Thayer's work, John Bennion's soon to be released novel with Signature, and Dean Hughes's Children of the Promise series. I agree, Brother England, I agree. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Erica GLENN, _Dancing Shoes_ (brief review) Date: 02 Oct 2000 13:52:06 -0700 Go see it. What? Too short a review, you say? Oh, you want to know where it is. The Valley Center Playhouse is at 780 N. 200 E. in Lindon "A Little Bit of Country" Utah (right next door to Pleasant "Strawberry Fields for Never" Grove). From State Street turn east at Allen's Supermarket (1900 N (Orem) / 200 South (Lindon). Go a short block up and turn left on 200 E, go down and up the hollow, across 400 N., past the semetary (no pets aloud), and almost to the city that wouldn't want a PG-13 rating if it were a movie. $6 for adults, $5 for children and students. What? Oh, the directions are longer than the review? We'll I hope to get a longer review out later in the week, but I think tonight and Fish-on-Fry-day are the last nights. Comments: The charleston at the beginning is a well-done number, the play is charming, Jessica Woahn plays Duslie so well you think she has to be a spoiled stuck-up prima-ballerina in real life--but of course she isn't, Lauren Francis as Hilary is wonderful as that precocious child we all know who can mimic anyone and doesn't realize how powerful such mimicry can be--she just wants to enjoy dancing in a company, Erica Glenn as Rachel shows us well the awkwardness of a girl just coming into teen-age knowing what she wants for her sister, and trying to figure out what she wants for herself. The adults are not drawn with as much depth as the children, but It will be interesting to see what Erica Glenn does with her adult characters as she approaches adulthood. Eric Samuelsen said recently that a playwright doesn't mature until 35. I hope by that time Glenn has created many engaging characters, and if Hilary's last words about getting married are any indication we may have another 12, 13, 14 year old playwright by then. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? (was: MN Premiere of Date: 02 Oct 2000 08:51:45 -0500 D. Michael Martindale > It's not the critic's business to dictate what > subjects an author should feel passionate enough to write about. Ironic Response: That's true, unless, of course, what that writer chooses to write about is "didactic." Or Single Entendre Response: What if the critic feels so passionately about the fact that there are more important things for LDS theater to do than x, y, or z and that they want to write about these things? Who's to say what the critic's business is or isn't? To say that the writer has free rein to choose their material and methods and a critic doesn't seems like an unnecessary narrowing of the possibilities. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 02 Oct 2000 10:30:10 EDT Thom, Thanks for your kind words. My next big challenge in finishing my story is to figure out how to work on it without letting my family starve. I'm working these days for the mighty Intel. I happen to live in a suburb of Portland at the opposite side from where I work. My commute, by car, is thirty miles through some of the nastiest traffic you'd never want to see. I have my church calling and support groups I run. It's all I can do to stay afloat. I wonder how people do it, get their writing done, when modern life has so many demands. I might force myself to do it, but an autobiography by me would never sell enough to put bread on the table. As a homosexual man who made the decision to live a heterosexual life, complete with all of the responsibilities of being a husband and father, I gave up too much for this family to not do my breadwinning duty now. Just another way where I've felt forced to either live my life or write about it. It's quite a dilemma. [Rex Goode] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] MN Premiere of "Sy's Girl" opens Pardoe TheatreSeason at BYU: Date: 02 Oct 2000 08:53:12 -0600 Richard Johnson wrote: > >I haven't seen this play, so it may not be what it's advertised to be, but, > >if it is, hopefully it is a blip in the annals of LDS theatre. With all > >that can be explored about our culture, religion, and history of a serious, > >compelling, and dramatic nature, what prompts an LDS writer to spend 90 > >pages talking about something so mundane as imaginary lovers? > > Perhaps because the imagination interfering with life is a _common_theme > approached by a variety of playwrights and authors in different ways ( > ranging from _Blithe Spirit_ -imaginary?- to _Harvey_(okay, not exactly a > lover but. . .)or the old one act _Overtones_. Interesting that the only professional examples of such themes are from the 40's. We see these shows today and they reek of another time with little relevance to our own. They are entertaining (especially Harvey) but it still seems dated. I'm not suggesting that there never was relevance to such things in the life of a BYU student, but that it's a relevance of a passed generation and, perhaps, not worthy of our attention in this modern world where so many more pressing issues stare us in the face. > Please! > >Someone's already explored date rape on campus, so maybe that's out, but > >what about a play about contemporary gays at BYU (they do exist, you know). > >Or the drama inherent in VOICE's near constant clashes with the > >conservative BYU leadership. Or, if the BYU student must strike a comedic > >tone, why not a farce dealing with academic freedom among the faculty? Or > >the censorship of the Rodin exhibit? > > Perhaps because ulitmately these come out as parochial gripes about which > some folks (Thom) get pretty agitated but which don't trouble others as > much as insecurity, inability to cope with life on its own terms or other > more universal themes. Well, then, maybe they should be. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) 90s plays Date: 02 Oct 2000 08:58:11 -0600 on 9/25/00 4:37 PM, Christopher Bigelow at ChrisB@enrich.com wrote: > The play that was the most intense and eye-opening for me in the 1990s was > Eric Samuelsen's _Accomodations_, which I saw at BYU in '92 or '93 and was > blown away by. Not only was the story gripping, realistic, and provocative, > but the performances were very convincing and moving to me, especially the > AML's own Scott Bronson as a conniving son. Which issue of Sunstone did _Accomodations_ appear in? Would love to read it. s. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? (was: MN Premiere of "Sy's Date: 02 Oct 2000 09:00:26 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > t's not the critic's business to dictate what > subjects an author should feel passionate enough to write about. > Agreed, but I'm not a critic. I'm a playwright, and LDS one to boot, and I just can't see the value in writing a play that any dufus can do. Our voice should be distinctive. We should talk about important issues. We don't have to write only dramas; important issues can be handled in comedies as well. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Premiere of "Sy's Girl" opens Pardoe Theatre Season at Date: 02 Oct 2000 10:34:27 -0600 Okay, I was going to write about Sy's Girl for my column, and probably = still will, but I have to answer this: >I haven't seen this play, so it may not be what it's advertised to >be, = but, if it is, hopefully it is a blip in the annals of LDS theatre. >With = all that can be explored about our culture, religion, and >history of a = serious, compelling, and dramatic nature, what >prompts an LDS writer to = spend 90 >pages talking about something so mundane as imaginary lovers? >Please! First of all, it's a comedy. Natalie Prado is a student of mine, and = she's very funny. She likes comedy, and she's good at it. She's not = interested in writing about gays at BYU, and she's not all that interested = in writing about serious issues. If there's one thing I believe in as a = teacher of writing, it is that writers should write about what they want = to write about; my job is just to help them write it well. She's maybe = the best undergraduate writer in our program right now, which is to say, = she's better at comedy than our more serious writers are at writing more = serious material. And by golly I'm going to help her, if I can. =20 Second of all, who says a comedy can't deal with interesting and important = issues? Chap named Moliere did all right with it. =20 Third, why assume that a play about imaginary boyfriends is automatically = shallow? Sy's Girl is a very interesting play, exploring romance and = romantic attachments as a kind of psychosis. (That's why he's called Sy, = BTW). What if I said the play is a 'harrowing examination of multiple = personality disorder?" We could say that, and it would be true, but since = the take on this issue is comedic, we wouldn't sell as many tickets as we = have and will by billing the play as funny, which it also is, very. I think it's a very sophisticated text. It's a play that says that women = feel so distanced from the men in our culture that they would rather = construct fantasy lives than go out and actually meet any. It's a play = about the distance children feel from their parents. It's a play about = popular culture, and the way certain kinds of pop culture construct = reality, which is far more satisfying than the reality we're mostly stuck = with. =20 I think it's a terrific play, funny and warm and real. Don't knock it. = Some of us--me, say--like to write edgy, hard nosed plays critically = examining our culture. Others of us want to write something funny. Me, = say--my new play is a farce. There's room for all of us. Eric Samuelsen =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 02 Oct 2000 10:37:18 -0600 Let me just say how moved I was by Rex's post on this issue. Please, Rex, = you absolutely must finish your autobiography. Your sensible, sane, = compassionate take on this hot button issue is exactly what the debate = needs. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 02 Oct 2000 09:50:05 PDT > This may be a trip in pure semantics, but it seems to me you are blurring >some important distinctions. A person may learn something from viewing >art, just as he may learn something from looking at a vista. But does the >vista teach? Certainly not with intent. An artistic creation is a form of >commentary created by the artist. This is true. But the true artist >creates, whether anyone observes the art or not, or whether or not anyone >learns anything from it. This is a matter of indifference to the artist. >Furthermore, different people may learn different things. This is also, >OK. Or they may learn nothing. Or perhaps have their spirits lifted. >Whatever. > But the person who has didactic intent targets an audience, and has an >agenda. They wish to invoke belief, affirm and confirm a point of view, >often with an intent to exploit. True art is not exploitative. > I think another significant distinction might have to do with sponsorship. > Even artistic creations that have a message, and are intended to >convince, >if it comes from an individual, may still have value, and be >non-exploitative, since we can know the source, and if necessary discount >it. On the other hand, officially sponsored art, art that is under-written >by governments or churches or other large, powerful organizations who seek >to advance their agenda (and they all almost always do), must be held in >suspicion. It usually reeks with didacticism. It seems to me that this is not at all a matter of semantics; rather, you (and others before you) are making it a matter of INTENT. In other words, authorial intent is everything--what determines didacticism is authorial intent. But contemporary criticism and critical theory has almost no regard whatsoever for authorial content. As Barthes has proclaimed, "the author is dead." Once a work of art is created, the author can have nothing to do with it--he or she (or at least his or her intent) is severed from the text. We don't read a text asking "what is the author _trying_ to say"--rather, we read what is being said. If we DO find ourselves asking what the author is _trying_ to say, that is usually because the author has FAILED in actually saying it. Thus, once again, I have to insist that charging a work with didacticism seems to be more of an accusation of "failing to teach effectively," rather than "trying to teach" (which is the same as failing to do so effectively). As for learning from art versus art teaching--what's the difference? Is it possible to learn without a teacher? I would say no. A work of art is always teaching something. For example, a novel is, at the very least (and usually there is much more than this), teaching us how a novel ought to be written. When the author chooses to write it this way instead of that way, he or she is asserting that this way is the way it is properly done. Think of everything and anything that can possibly be learned from art--you could not learn it if the art was not teaching it in some way. And as for the vista--do we really need to go into the differences between art and nature? Besides, we could make an argument that nature is God's creation, God's art--and certainly we can argue that all of God's creation functions at least in part to teach ("all things typify Christ," "all things teach that there is a God," and so on). Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? (was: MN Premiere of "Sy's Girl") Date: 02 Oct 2000 09:55:41 PDT > > With all > > that can be explored about our culture, religion, and history of a >serious, > > compelling, and dramatic nature, what prompts an LDS writer to spend 90 > > pages talking about something so mundane as imaginary lovers? > > > [A list of interesting suggestions follows.] > >Go for it, Thom. Write plays about those things, since you feel >passionate about them. > >But if someone wants to write about imaginary lovers, why shouldn't >they? The critic should be commenting on how successful an author was in >accomplishing what the author wanted to accomplish. The critic should >discuss whether the author took the subject and did something fresh and >interesting with it. It's not the critic's business to dictate what >subjects an author should feel passionate enough to write about. But now you're critiquing Thom's critique. Clearly, you have your own set of criteria for judging a good critic, as well as a good work of art. But each critic is entitled to his or her own set of criteria--and Thom's (and mine also, by the way) apparently do not include much concern for the author's intent, or what he or she "was hoping to accomplish." Personally, I can have no hope of knowing for sure what the author was hoping to accomplish, so I simply critique based on what's in front of me. Not liking the subject matter of what's in front of me is a perfectly valid critical reaction. Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 02 Oct 2000 11:21:13 -0600 (MDT) > This is true. But the true artist > creates, whether anyone observes the art or not, or whether or not anyone > learns anything from it. > But the person who has didactic intent targets an audience, and has an > agenda. They wish to invoke belief, affirm and confirm a point of view, > often with an intent to exploit. True art is not exploitative. > > [Merlyn Clarke] This criteria would eliminate several examples of famous literature: Is "Paradise Lost" didactic because the poet set out to "justify the ways of God to man?" Or is John Steinbeck less worthy to lead beacuse he once explicitly stated that he had an agenda of exposing the plight of the downtrodden? How about satire like "Tartufe" which was written to expose hypocrisy? Or "1984" and "Animal Farm" by George Orwell or "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley? Those were all written with explicitly political/social/moral aims in mind. What seems to me happens is if a work of art proclaims a liberal lesson (Homosexuality is okay, The Rich abuse the poor too much and so must be taken down, Religions are merely coverings for hypocrites, etc.) somehow it's not "didactic" - instead it's "revolutionary" and therefore acceptable. But if it proclaims a conservative lesson (follow the church leaders, heterosexual marriage is the only true marriage, there is a God who expects you to follow certain rules, etc.) it is suddenly "didactic" and therefore bad, bad, bad. To me, that impleis a double standard. I beleive all art is didactic at some level. With some art it is more obvious than other art, but art is never "revolutionary" unless it's also "didactic" at the same time. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paynecabin@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 02 Oct 2000 13:27:10 EDT Gaelyn wrote: << I overheard two men during the week talking about activity in the church. One was telling the other than if you grew up in the church, if you had heard the gospel preached, then at some level you knew it was true. If you then rebelled and refused to obey the commandments, you would go to hell. In other words, you have had your chance to hear the truth and you haven't responded, so you will be accountable/punished. >> Gaelyn challenged the emphasis in this notion. Here's another thought. Several years ago I was on an Education Week faculty somewhere in the Midwest with Chauncy Riddle, who suggested (privately, not in a class) that when someone had been loved with the Savior's quality of love and felt it and knew where it came from and saw its place in the gospel of the Restoration, then it might be supposed that he had "had his chance." If that's true (it feels right to me) then ought not our work be infused with love? Or maybe it's not our place to "give people their chance." Or maybe our place is to do nothing else but. Marvin Payne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] HUGHES, _Children of the Promise_ (Review) Date: 02 Oct 2000 15:15:31 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- > Author: Dean Hughes > Series Title: Children of the Promise. Five volumes. Have you other AML-listers read these books and not told us how great they are? Yep! I've read the first three volumes, and am trying to figure out how to get my hands on volume four so I can read volume five. But since I just ordered Sarah by OSC and two textbooks on Walt Whitman, I think I have used up my book buying grace till at least Christmas. Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: Re: [AML] HUGHES, _Children of the Promise_ (Review) Date: 02 Oct 2000 21:30:52 MDT >Have you other AML-listers read these books and not told us >how great they are? I am guilty of book hoarding! Too busy reading, I suppose. I just shelled out $17 for volume 5 and I cannot put it down. I got into this series of books when I worked as a bank teller and had plenty of reading time on my hands. I thought it was a 4 volume set and when I got to the end of volume 4 and discovered it was a *5* volume set with the 5th volume over half a year away I did not think I would survive. The entire series is now available at Wal-Mart, for those of you in Utah. I love this series for all the reasons that you mentioned. They are absolutely page-turners--I can't wait to see what happens to this family. So I'd better get back to reading. You'll have to get someone else to review it, though, because I have a tendency to give away endings and I value my life. Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 03 Oct 2000 00:41:20 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > But who decides when this is happening? And by this definition--that > didacticism is the desire to send a message, superceding a desire to be > "honest" with his/her story (whatever that means)--shouldn't we say that all > satire is didactic (thus "bad")? Just because we don't agree on when a thing has happened, doesn't mean the category isn't useful to define and discuss. Lots of things are subjective, but we still identify and discuss them. It's only when subjective criteria are used as a basis for censorship that problems arise. I gave the definition for didacticism based on what modern sensibilities are. It is utterly irrelevant to previous (and no doubt future) generations. Satire doesn't cause a problem. There are simply different rules for satire than more serious literature on how true to characters and events the author needs to be. It's still possible within satire to be so manipulative with characters and events--so heavy-handed with the message--that the reader is put off and doesn't receive the message. I think it's a common assessment that the more subtle satire is, the higher quality it is. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 03 Oct 2000 10:41:10 -0600 Ivan Angus Wolfe wrote: > This criteria would eliminate several examples of famous literature: > > Is "Paradise Lost" didactic because the poet set out to "justify the ways of God > to man?" > > Or is John Steinbeck less worthy to lead beacuse he once explicitly stated that > he had an agenda of exposing the plight of the downtrodden? > > How about satire like "Tartufe" which was written to expose hypocrisy? > > Or "1984" and "Animal Farm" by George Orwell or "Brave New World" by Aldous > Huxley? Those were all written with explicitly political/social/moral aims in > mind. In each of these cases, the stories are moving, touching, inspiring to readers who may be totally unaware of the author's agenda. Whatever their "didactic" purposes are they are, first and foremost, good literature. > What seems to me happens is if a work of art proclaims a liberal lesson > (Homosexuality is okay, The Rich abuse the poor too much and so must be taken > down, Religions are merely coverings for hypocrites, etc.) somehow it's not > "didactic" - instead it's "revolutionary" and therefore acceptable. But if it > proclaims a conservative lesson (follow the church leaders, heterosexual > marriage is the only true marriage, there is a God who expects you to follow > certain rules, etc.) it is suddenly "didactic" and therefore bad, bad, bad. To > me, that impleis a double standard. There is no double standard. Liberal didacticism has the same rules as conservative didacticism. Entertain first, preach second. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marsha Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 03 Oct 2000 09:45:20 -0700 Funny, I feel like I've come full circle. When I first joined this list, the conversation was on Didacticism in art. We haven't moved very far from the original feelings on it, it seems. I did want to submit one thought however. I know that when I write a poem that comes out being didactic, usually it is because I have learned something and want to share it. It isn't so much that I believe that I am above and shall now proceed to 'instruct' the world to perfection, but that I am struggling to do the best I can, and something stirred my heart or sparked inspiration or strummed a chord of remembrance within. Perhaps the difference comes, not in the message, but in the presentation of it. If the author artist/ musician comes across as preaching, we are somehow put off by it. Yet as in "Pilgrim's Progress"... we take the didactic walk *with* the author, and are thusly inspired instead of lectured. When I succeed in presenting material that is close to my heart, usually it is when I have found a way to present it with humility and innocence. When I fail, sometimes with the same material, it is when I attempt to 'show them how to do it'. I lost my connection, and the synapse is broken between the spirit of the receiver and my own. Didacticism isn't evil in and of itself, no more than money is, but if we use it instead of serendipitously discovering it along our way, sometimes it seems to me, that is where we trip and fall into the quagmire of disconnection with our intended audience. Marsha Steed http::Chantaclair.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 03 Oct 2000 11:31:36 -0600 Paynecabin@aol.com wrote: > > > with Chauncy Riddle, who suggested (privately, not in a class) that when > someone had been loved with the Savior's quality of love and felt it and knew > where it came from and saw its place in the gospel of the Restoration, then > it might be supposed that he had "had his chance." > > If that's true (it feels right to me) then ought not our work be infused with > love? Or maybe it's not our place to "give people their chance." Or maybe > our place is to do nothing else but. > > Marvin Payne > I'm not so sure about the "give people their chance" idea, but love as a primary motivation for art and everything else makes a lot of sense to me. I vote for the "nothing else but" answer to the question. It is written that man cannot serve two masters. One of the masters that asks for our devotion and service is identified with love. Always. Completely and fully. If our work doesn't not resonate on that string it must be tickling the string of the other would be master. Tom -- Tom Matkin www.matkin.com (Romans 12:21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] LTUE Call for papers Date: 03 Oct 2000 13:20:29 -0600 (MDT) Year 2001 Symposium on Science Fiction and Fantasy 22 =96 24 March, 2001 Brigham Young University Provo, Utah Featured Guests: Harry Turtledove, Tracy Hickman Abstracts are currently being accepted for 20 to 45 minute papers dea= ling with all aspects of Science Fiction and Fantasy: Literature, Film, Televi= sion, Technology, Space exploration, Arthuriana, Computers, Fictional world= s and cultures, Real world cultures (as they relate to Science Fiction or F= antasy), Mythology, Future shock, the Impact of science on modern society, and= other topics of interest relating to these fields. Student Papers (both Gr= aduate and Undergraduate) Welcome. Abstracts must be received by January 21st, 2001. If your abstract i= s accepted, Papers will be due by February 15th, 2000. For more information, cont= act Beth Eatough at beth@eatough.net Papers will be published in a proceedings volume. Please send abstracts to ltue@byu.edu, or: Ivan Wolfe 1132-H JKHB Brigham Young Unviersity Provo, Utah 84602 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 03 Oct 2000 12:29:29 PDT >Jason Steed wrote: > > > But who decides when this is happening? And by this definition--that > > didacticism is the desire to send a message, superceding a desire to be > > "honest" with his/her story (whatever that means)--shouldn't we say that >all > > satire is didactic (thus "bad")? > >Just because we don't agree on when a thing has happened, doesn't mean >the category isn't useful to define and discuss. Lots of things are >subjective, but we still identify and discuss them. It's only when >subjective criteria are used as a basis for censorship that problems >arise. I'm not quite sure how I was suggesting that we can't discuss the subject or category. I was merely disagreeing with your definition. > >I gave the definition for didacticism based on what modern sensibilities >are. It is utterly irrelevant to previous (and no doubt future) >generations. Whose sensibilities? And I assume you mean modern-as-in-current and not modern-as-in-Modernism. And I think it's hard to support the definition of didacticism that you put forward, with a reliance on "modern sensibilities," because I would argue that these sensibilities include (for many it is almost central) the notion that art IS social and political--it is not removed from these realms--thus, it always has socio-political aims or ramifications. These are the "modern sensibilities" that I am familiar with in the English Departments I've been a part of. Didacticism has a negative connotation to it, but as Ivan points out, this is often applied to unpopular messages, or failing attempts--rarely do we call a work that promotes a popular message successfully, "didactic." [On this note: notice that Hollywood is always ready to take credit for the lessons to be learned from a film that promotes tolerance of race or sexual orientation, and is always willing to proclaim the "difference" the film has made--clearly there is the idea that the film conveys a "message." It is didactic, but no one calls it that. On the other hand, Hollywood refuses to acknowledge the "messages" put forward that are unpopular. Case in point: Does violence in movies promote violence in society? Hollywood says no. But somehow tolerance in movies promotes tolerance in society. According to Hollywood, one film is didactic (though they won't use that label), and another is not (because to say it is would mean they lose a lot of money).] >Satire doesn't cause a problem. There are simply different rules for >satire than more serious literature on how true to characters and events >the author needs to be. I'm going to assume that you don't mean to suggest that satire isn't "serious" literature. Voltaire, Swift, Fielding, Jonson, Austen, Dickens, Twain, Thackeray, Wilde, Orwell, and Oh! so many others would disagree with that notion. >It's still possible within satire to be so >manipulative with characters and events--so heavy-handed with the >message--that the reader is put off and doesn't receive the message. I >think it's a common assessment that the more subtle satire is, the >higher quality it is. Again, common with whom? I don't know of any consensus that says subtle satire is better. There are all sorts of examples of raging, biting, blatant satires that are considered wonderful works of art. See the list of authors above. It seems clear, again, that you have particular criteria in mind when you judge works as "too heavy handed" or "didactic", etc., etc. And that's natural and necessary (you have to have criteria to make a judgement). But I think the attempt to generalize your own criteria is, while tempting, a difficult thing to do--that's why I think it's difficult to say any particular work is, in and of itself, didactic--because the didacticism-as-verdict results from individual criteria that are not shared by everyone. Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] LTUE Call for Papers (Correction) Date: 04 Oct 2000 15:35:23 -0500 The previous notice should read "Life, the Universe and Everything XIX" at the top. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: [AML] Help! C-Span Is Calling Date: 03 Oct 2000 17:33:35 EDT Folks, I just returned from a book signing tour and discovered the sales rep. at Mountain Press had made no plans yet for my SLC visit Oct. 28-Nov5. C-Span Book events read my book and called me today. They want to tape a session for their young readers in SLC. I've put out a call on another list, but I need a middle school class or something similar where I can present my school program and where the kids and adults will ask good questions. Anyone teach a class where this event might take place? Let me know ASAP, by private e-mail. Many Thanks, Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] DUTCHER, _Brigham City_ Date: 04 Oct 2000 07:03:44 JST Here is an article from Beliefnet about Richard Dutcher's (God's Army) next film, called "Brigham City." http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?boardID=5950&pageloc=/story/45/story_4507_1.html Andrew Hall _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Allred Subject: Re: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:19:10 -0600 I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with much of the latter portion of Gae Lyn's post. >>So I wonder if didactic literature is psychologically fear-based? The first didactic work that sprung to mind was THE ROBE by Lloyd C. Douglas, the second ADDED UPON by Nephi Anderson. It would, I think, take mental contortions of Summer Olympic gymnastic levels, to categorize either work's didacticism as fear-based. Positive behaviour is reinforced not by "do good or face fire-and-brimstone" examples, but the more Mormon idea of hell being squandered or misspent opportunities and of heaven being increased potential and joy. Secondly, >>If the author-speaker is unconciously telling the reader that s/he >>can't be trusted to make decisions, that the best course is to >>follow. In the national science fiction field, the most active area in didactic fiction is the "Campbellian"/libertarian branch of SF whose central premise is the exact antithesis of the above quoted statement: that (or so they contend) the best of all possible worlds is one where individual decision making is supreme and as many cultural, governmental, economic, etc. barriers to that have been removed, rubbed, or ridiculed out of existence. (In fact, perhaps the epitome of a science fictional example of didactic literature where individual decision making is looked at as either inconsequential or counter-productive would be H. G. Wells at his worst. Wells' philosophy and politics was called many things, but "conservative"--as per this thread title--was not one of them.) Lastly, the underlying context of her whole last paragraph >>So I wonder if didactic literature is psychologically fear-based? >>...And therefore, in contrast, if open-ended, question-asking >>literature, sends the underlying message to the reader that he or >>she is trusted to think about the problem presented and come up >>with a good answer. I've always found this position ("positing answers, bad--posing questions, good") troubling -- moreso because oftentimes that position is made is the same fashion as Gae Lyn has done: positing the "answer" that positing answers is bad in the form of a question because asking questions is good. To wit: can not questions be just as baldfacedly didactic as stated answers? The underlying assumption is that there must be an either/or dichotomy: answers or questions. One of Mormonism's great strengths, one it shares with science btw, is that it contends a) a bedrock of hard-won universal answers exist; that b) those foundational truths enable/create more questions ("There is no end to questions/There is no end to Truth," as we didactic Kolob-Hiers are wont to assert); and c) that newfound higher laws can supplant the old bedrock. Questions are vital to growth--Christ, as Gae Lyn points out, often taught with questions, and the Restoration came from a farm boy's simple question. But are not the answers to those questions as important as the questions themselves were? Both are vital. Is that not so? --Lee leea@sff.net www.leeallred.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:37:59 -0600 >D. Michael Martindale > >> It's not the critic's business to dictate what > > subjects an author should feel passionate enough to write about. > I think a relevant question when critiquing something, along with "What was it trying to accomplish?" and "Did it succeed?" is "Was it worth doing?" (I know I'm not the first one to think of that; Goethe or somebody said the same thing, only perhaps in a different language.) If we judge things strictly on the scale of "How good a job did they do of it?" then we force ourselves to give high marks to things that don't benefit us or society in any way. You'd have to give Satan a pretty solid review on his performance thus far, as he has accomplished a great deal of what he set out to do. But since I don't agree with what he's trying to do, and don't find it to be a worthwhile endeavor, I would score him much lower. OK, that example was crazy. But let's say I take my car in to the shop, and the mechanic decides to give me a new transmission, even though I don't need one. What he's trying to accomplish is to install a new transmission, and to rip me off. And he might do a beautiful job at both, giving me a bright, shiny new transmission that works wonderfully, and he may get a few hundred dollars out of me for it. Without that "Was it worth doing?" question in my critique of him, I'd have to give him four stars. He did, after all, achieve what he set out to do. If every theater in Utah were doing "Joseph" all at the same time, and then a new theater opened and produced the same show, I'd have to say that's a case where the thing might be done extremely well, but simply is not worth doing. At another point in time or in another place, sure. But not here and now. The "Was it worth doing?" question is a highly subjective one -- I think it's even more subjective than the other standard review questions. What I think is very much worth doing, someone else might consider absolutely stupid, and vice versa. But when critiquing -- especially in our own personal critiques, and not official, published ones -- it's an important question to ask. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:34:37 -0600 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > D. Michael Martindale > > > It's not the critic's business to dictate what > > subjects an author should feel passionate enough to write about. > > Ironic Response: > > That's true, unless, of course, what that writer chooses to write about is > "didactic." "Didactic" isn't a "what" to write about, it's a "how." It's perfectly within the jurisdiction of the critic to comment on how an author presents his material. > Or > > Single Entendre Response: > > What if the critic feels so passionately about the fact that there are more > important things for LDS theater to do than x, y, or z and that they want to > write about these things? Then let _him_ write about the things he considers more important than x, y, and z, and not complain that author Q wrote about x, y, or z. He should only complain that author Q didn't do a good job writing about x, y, or z--which, by the way, easily includes complaining that author Q didn't say anything fresh about x, y, or z that hasn't been said by a gazillion authors before him. But if author Q can pull off something fresh, then by golly, the critic has no business telling him he shouldn't have. > Who's to say what the critic's business is or isn't? Me. I'm as intelligent as the next guy. > To say that the writer > has free rein to choose their material and methods and a critic doesn't > seems like an unnecessary narrowing of the possibilities. I never said the writer has free rein to choose his methods--only his material. He is obliged to choose only those methods which will be effective. If he doesn't, the critic is fully within his jurisdiction to call him on it. But letting the critic dictate what material the author may choose to write about amounts to a sort of censorship. Just because it doesn't interest the critic doesn't mean it won't interest me. What's the difference between the critic saying author Q shouldn't write about x,y, or z, or the former Soviet government saying author Q shouldn't write about x, y, or z--except that the Soviet Union had more power to enforce the opinion? However, the critic _does_ have the right to _say_ that the material doesn't interest him. But that should be more in the context of full disclosure, not as part of the criticism of the work itself. A critic should actually apologize that he has a prejudice against the material, and nonetheless strive to be as objective as he can in his criticism of the methods of presentation. The reader of a review deserves to know that a critic is lambasting a work because that critic doesn't like love stories, not because the work was actually bad. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:38:05 -0600 Rex Goode wrote: > I'm working these days for the mighty Intel. I never felt any desire to beat you up for being homosexual. But _this_ makes me want to pummel you! (At least you don't work for Microsoft.) Yes, folks, that was just a joke. > I might force myself to do it, but an autobiography by me > would never sell enough to put bread on the table. What about an autobiography of you by someone else? Yes, that was also a joke. Well, sort of. There is such a thing as ghost writers. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:47:29 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > Thus, once again, I have to insist that charging a work with didacticism > seems to be more of an accusation of "failing to teach effectively," rather > than "trying to teach" (which is the same as failing to do so effectively). Worded this way, I agree with you. My definition of didacticism was actually my criteria for what constitutes failing to teach effectively within literature. > Besides, we could make an argument that nature is God's > creation, God's art--and certainly we can argue that all of God's creation > functions at least in part to teach ("all things typify Christ," "all things > teach that there is a God," and so on). Looked at it this way, we can say God is the consummate artist. His works of creation can teach us all sorts of things, but none of them have a "message." We are free to glean whatever message we can perceive from them. It's only in his essays (i.e., scripture and revelation) that God teaches messages directly. In his art, his didacticism is as subtle and open-ended as many of us seem to think our art should be. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:55:51 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > But each > critic is entitled to his or her own set of criteria--and Thom's (and mine > also, by the way) apparently do not include much concern for the author's > intent, or what he or she "was hoping to accomplish." I never said anything about the author's intent. I was speaking strictly of the author's choice in material. I don't see how that can possibly be included in any reasonable set of critical criteria. It seems completely self-evident to me that if the critic can dictate what subject matter the artist can choose, art suffers. If an oppressive government were dictating such a thing, we would consider it abhorrent. Just because the critic has less power to enforce his dictations doesn't make the concept any less abhorrent. > Not liking the subject > matter of what's in front of me is a perfectly valid critical reaction. But that's not what Thom said. He went beyond that to say the author shouldn't be writing about what didn't interest Thom. If a critic says that the author violated point of view and shouldn't do that, the critic is well within his jurisdiction. If the critic says the author shouldn't write about fantasy lovers, he has overstepped his bounds. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] WOLVERTON, _The Runelords_ (was: Moral Issues in Art) Date: 03 Oct 2000 23:22:34 -0700 On Mon, 02 Oct 2000 09:50:05 Jason Steed summarizes one position in this thread as saying that didacticism is a matter of authorial intent, then notes, > But contemporary criticism and critical theory has almost no regard > whatsoever for authorial content. Not all contemporary theorists feel this way. There was a presentation at AML symposium a few years back by Neal Kramer and some of Wayne Booth's other former students talking about literature as rhetoric, that is as something trying to convince us to take certain action in our lives. (Believe is a verb.) The panel was discussing Booth's belief that because literature asks us to do certain things it is right to question what literature asks, how it asks, and whether the things literature asks of us are right. I didn't hear the presentation for some reason, but it seems a topic difficult to discuss without assuming that the person who creates a work of art has a certain intent toward the audience. And authors have myriad ways of announcing their intent. If you're reading an autobiography (like _From Housewife to Heretic_) and the author begins addressing her ex-husband in second person, excoriating him as a worthless human being, you have a pretty good indication of how she wants you to feel about him. There are much more subtle ways, of course, to announce intent clearly. One is to compare the action in a story (speaking words is an action) to actions your readers already know and have some attitude towards. Dave Wolverton does this wonderfully in _The Runelords_. The story is set in a world where it is possible to give your physical traits to someone else, (endowments, they call it, giving new meaning to the phrase "taking out endowments"). You can give them your hearing or stamina or sight or glamour, for example. Of course there are ethical problems with this. Consider people who are vulnerable because of poverty, who see selling their attributes as the only way to survive. What is the ethical and moral position of people who have the means to purchase someone else's hearing or sight or glamour, and do? At one point the main character, Prince Gaborn, recalls a conversation with his father on the subject, where King Orden justified buying endowments from the poor by saying, "Some people love money more than they love their fellow men. Why not turn such people's weakness into your strength?" (157). Readers familiar with the Book of Mormon will recognize the echo of Ether 12:27. They will also recognize the inversion, how that scripture tells us to come to Christ so we can make our weaknesses (not someone else's) into our strengths. Wolverton wants us to understand there's something deeply wrong with what the king has said. For readers not familiar with the Book of Mormon Wolverton signals his intent by having the king's later statement, "I was wrong," and his explanation of why also be part of Gaborn's memory. Similarly, when the wizard Binnesman tells Gaborn "Forgive me, Your Lordship, but you must remove your shoes. This is not common ground," we are to recognize Binnesman as having divine power and Gaborn as a type of Moses. A few lines later Wolverton emphasizes the wizard's prophetic power when Binnesman says, "This is the place" (123). And a bit later in chapter 14, "A Wizard in Chains" Wolverton signals his intent--how he wants us to understand this story--by retelling the story of Abinadi before King Noah. But what Wolverton wants us to understand is that even this king, whose face he has described as "The Face of Pure Evil," can be touched by pure truth. By juxtaposing this scene with King Orden's instructions to slaughter certain of the wicked king's servants the author invites us again to reconsider Orden's rhetoric, to wonder if there is a better way to fight evil than using the tactics of evil. I'm going to split the post here. And I'll probably split the post again. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: [AML] (Biblio) Plays Published in Sunstone Date: 04 Oct 2000 00:20:01 -0600 Steve Perry asks: >Which issue of Sunstone did _Accomodations_ appear in? Would love to = read >it. Biblio File: Plays published in Sunstone by Morgan B. Adair >From its first issue (but with a break from '77-'87) Sunstone has been one = of the=20 few publishers of Mormon drama. Here are some notes about the plays they = have=20 published. Fires Of The Mind by Robert Elliott Vol. 1, No. 1, Winter 1975 "Fires of the Mind" was produced in the Margetts Arena Theatre, BYU, in=20 November, 1974, and selected as BYU's entry in the American College = Theatre=20 Festival. A play about missionaries in Taiwan. "It is a human drama = reflecting the=20 imperfect thoughts and actions of several imperfect but good young men, = each=20 struggling in his own way to become better," Robert Elliot. Father, Mother, Mother, and Mom by Orson Scott Card / Music by Robert Stoddard Vol. 2, No. 2, Summer 1977 The first draft was written in 1971, shortly before scriptwriter Orson = Scott Card left=20 for a mission in Brazil. Composer Robert Stoddard directed a reading, but = the=20 script was not produced at BYU, the reason given being that BYU could = not=20 produce a play that seemingly condoned polygamy. Many have viewed the = play=20 as a defense of or an attack on polygamy. According to the author, it is = neither. =20 Instead, it is an examination of what polygamy did to people's hearts, and = even=20 more important, an examination of what price people will pay for obedience,= and=20 what the rewards are. The first production was directed by Stoddard in = 1974.=20 The second production was directed by Card in January 1977 at the = Greenbriar=20 Theatre, West Jordan, Utah. This second production (which included = extensive=20 rewrites, including the elimination of one character) broke all attendance = records=20 at the small community theatre. As in the previous production, the author = played=20 the leading role of John Monson. Burdens of Earth by Susan Howe Vol. 11, No. 6, November 1987 Burdens of Earth, a play about Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail, was first = presented in=20 Brigham Young University's Pardoe Theatre on 28 May 1987. The Beehive State by Robert Frederick Lauer Vol. 13, No. 6, December 1989 A domestic drama about the Great Accommodation. First presented by The = Olde=20 Theatre Company (a division of Portsmouth Parks and Recreation Department;= =20 Portsmouth, VA) on 12 August 1989. Appeal to a Lower Court by Neal Chandler Vol. 14, No. 6, December 1990 BASED ON EVENTS THAT TOOK PLACE IN northern Germany in the years 1942=20 and 1943. How does a man survive the shame and compromise, the violence of = faith? Wilford Woodruff: God's Fisherman by Tim Slover and James Arrington Vol. 16, No. 1, February 1992 Wilford Woodruff: God's Fisherman was commissioned by the Mormon History=20= Association and premiered 6 July 1987 at its annual meeting at Oxford = University in=20 Oxford, England, in celebration of the sesquicentennial of the British = Missions. It=20 later appeared on the stage of BYU's Nelke Theatre and in other theatrical = venues=20 along the Wasatch Front and in Denver. Tim Slover acted the role of his = great-great- grandfather, and James Arrington directed and produced the play. Accommodations by Eric Samuelsen Vol. 17, No. 1, June 1994 Grandfather is getting older and the family needs to come together and = care for him.=20 George and Veeann are both active members of the Church, caring and kind = people=20 whose only interest is his welfare. But what happens when moral principles = collide=20 with financial realities? Accomodations was first presented by the Brigham = Young=20 University Department of Theatre and Film at the Margett's Theatre, 13-29 = May 1993,=20 directed by Thomas F. Rogers. Bash: A Remembrance of Hatred and Longing by Neil LaBute Vol. 18, No. 3, December 1995 A disturbing play about Mormon men, gender relations, and homophobia. The = play=20 has been presented at Brigham Young University, the University of Utah, = Purdue=20 University, and in Los Angleles and London, as well as at Sunstone = symposiums in=20 Salt Lake City and Chicago. Bash is the first installment in a trilogy of = latter-day plays=20 entitled _A Gaggle of Saints_. Altars by J. Scott Bronson Vol 20, No. 3, September 1997 Closely based on the scriptural story of Abraham and Isaac, Altars is an = up-close=20 look at the concept of sacrifice, both in the literal, Old Testament sense = and the=20 day-to-day giving up of one's self as a parent or family member. A reading = of this=20 play was presented at the 1994 Sunstone Symposium in Salt Lake City. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marilyn McPhie Subject: [AML] MADSEN & WOODS, _I Sailed to Zion_ (Review) Date: 03 Oct 2000 15:52:08 -0700 Review I Sailed to Zion: True Stories of Young Pioneers Who Crossed the Oceans, 1840-1890 Susan Arrington Madsen and Fred E. Woods, Deseret Book, 2000 Hardcover, $17.95, 173 pages, plus list of illustrations, references, index Reviewed by Marilyn McPhie For those who believe that context is everything, I should explain why this review may be rather more personal than some. I received the book to be reviewed just as I set out on a trip to see my daughter off on her mission to Ecuador. I read the book on Sunday, July 23rd, after hearing a Pioneer Day Sacrament meeting, and riding through Nevada and southern Utah, and now I'm writing this on my laptop in the car on July 24th after bidding my daughter farewell. I'm just passing Fillmore now (Hey, I had ancestors who lived in Fillmore.) So I'm filled with missionary and pioneer feelings. Perhaps I should also say that I have ancestors who came across the ocean to Zion. (And, so , of course, I was asking myself why I hadn't had the presence of mind to research their stories and submit them to this book. Ah, well, perhaps volume II.) Now, for the review--- I liked it. There are many reasons to write books about young pioneers (Primary sharing time, Priesthood/Young Women programs, family home evenings, Pioneer Day sacrament meeting talks are a few which spring immediately to mind.) So the authors/editors/compilers have done something good here. And in doing so, they have filled a heretofore empty niche of first person narrative from young pioneers sailing to Zion. It's a sizable niche. During the fifty years covered by this volume, more than forty thousand young (under the age of twenty-one) converts to the church crossed the oceans to gather in Utah. Their firsthand accounts make great reading. Madsen and Woods have done their homework. Their research was thorough and looks impeccable. Everything is footnoted and documented, with sources and notes galore. That's important in an historical work, even (or perhaps especially) in one concentrating on personal, feel-good narrative. They have sometimes smoothed out the spelling and substituted a word or two to give accurate meaning, but the authors always identify when and where. The illustrations and photographs receive the same careful documentation. The book is attractive. It has a photo of three appealing boys on the cover, and the "old scrapbook" quality suits the material. It is illustrated with reproductions of photos, drawings, handbills and other evocative pictorial representations of the era. (As might be expected, photos are not available of every child whose story is featured. And all the just-right photos don't have stories. So there's some mix-and-match, but it's all labeled accurately so there's no confusion, and it certainly adds to the overall appeal of the book.) The stories are clustered by theme: "Leaving the Homeland," "A Small Village at Sea," "Dangers and Deliverance," "Two Unique Voyages, "A New Home," and finally, "The Meaning of the Gathering." Each section is introduced with the historic background, and patterns in the narratives are noted and explored. Each child's story is prefaced with information about the context and form in which it was written, and each story is followed with brief notes about what happened to the writer---place of eventual settlement, marriage, children, occupation, church involvement, death. Thus, the authors have endeavored to give as complete a picture as possible. The stories do receive individualized treatment. For example, one story is drawn from the writings of two sisters who crossed the plains together. The narrative follows the time line of the trek, alternating between sisters, providing both reinforcement and contrast. Some of the stories are familiar---like that of B. H. Roberts. Most, however, will be new to many readers, giving them that everyman, or in this case, every-pioneer feeling. What might have been better? Hard to say. Of course, we'd love it if more stories were contemporary to the voyages themselves, instead of remembered years later. We'd like daily journals. And, as long as we're wishing, we'd like photos of each pioneer child, preferably on shipboard. Alas, as the authors explained, such materials are scarce. So, wishes aside, this is a fine book. Buy it and put it next to Madsen's other two volumes of stories from young pioneers (I walked to Zion and Growing Up in Zion). I think you'll enjoy reading the stories, as I did. I think you'll want to share them with family members, as I did. And I'll bet you'll find places to use them in everything from church assignments to casual conversations, as I have. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 06 Oct 2000 11:29:08 -0600 >Marsha Steed said: > When I succeed in presenting material that is close to my heart, > usually it > is when I have found a way to present it with humility and > innocence. When > I fail, sometimes with the same material, it is when I attempt to > 'show them > how to do it'. I lost my connection, and the synapse is broken > between the > spirit of the receiver and my own. Didacticism isn't evil in and > of itself, > no more than money is, but if we use it instead of serendipitously > discovering it along our way, sometimes it seems to me, that is where we > trip and fall into the quagmire of disconnection with our > intended audience. > I think you put that beautifully Marsha. The relationship between the reader and the author is a key point. Connection or disconnection occurs according to the way the reader perceives the author's attitude. Peter Brooks says that "if the story told has been effective, if it has 'taken hold,' the act of transmission resembles , , , psychoanalytic transference, where the listener enters the story as an active participant in the creation of design and meaning, and the reader is then called upon himself to enter this transferential space." So we may be put off by didactic forms because they deny us creative entrance into the work and interpretational freedom. Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: [AML] HUGHES, _Children of the Promise_ Vol. 5 Date: 05 Oct 2000 09:59:43 MDT Just finished volume 5 of the Children of the Promise series and I have to say that the afterword made me very sad. I enjoyed the book and did feel *some* closure for the series, but there were lots of loose ends! It's just about as open ended as every other book in the series except he's not going to write anymore. I, personally, would be happy if this was a much longer series but I do tend to obsess. That is my major complaint, though, that he would leave so many loose ends and then declare that he was tired of writing these books (how dare a writer get tired :-) and that if he revisited the Thomases it would be in another era. But I want to know what happens to LaRue at college next year! So, buyer beware when you start reading these books. He keeps you wanting more... Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 05 Oct 2000 14:19:20 EDT >I never felt any desire to beat you up for being homosexual. But _this_ >makes me want to pummel you! (At least you don't work for Microsoft.) True. I turned Microsoft down on the basis of already being married. :) >Yes, folks, that was just a joke. > > I might force myself to do it, but an autobiography by me > > would never sell enough to put bread on the table. > >What about an autobiography of you by someone else? > >Yes, that was also a joke. Well, sort of. There is such a thing as ghost >writers. I've often wondered how my story might be different written by someone else, a biography instead of an autobiography. In truth, I don't really want to write an autobiography. I wouldn't mind it if someone else wanted to do my biography. I want to write essays, inspirational stuff, related to my life, but more principle-based than telling a chronological story. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] HUGHES, _Children of the Promise_ Vol. 5 Date: 05 Oct 2000 12:42:56 -0600 on 10/5/00 9:59 AM, Marianne Hales Harding at marianne_hales_harding@hotmail.com wrote: > I, personally, would be happy if this was a much longer > series but I do tend to obsess. That is my major complaint, though, that he > would leave so many loose ends and then declare that he was tired of writing > these books (how dare a writer get tired :-) and that if he revisited the > Thomases it would be in another era In August I emceed and played for a musical program at the LDS Booksellers Convention where the Indepent Booksellers (all the various one- and two-store mom/pop book businesses) gave Dean Hughes an award. Afterward we chatted briefly and I noticed he was wearing wrist braces on both hands. I said something brilliant and witty like, "you've just been writing too much," to which he replied quite seriously, "Yes, exactly." Sorry Marianne, I guess we'll just have to give the guy a break and let the series be over for now. ;-) Occupational hazard--too bad. Steve -- skperry@mac.com http://StevenKappPerry.com "Outside of a dog, man's best friend is a book; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] (Biblio) Plays Published in Sunstone Date: 05 Oct 2000 12:46:11 -0600 on 10/4/00 12:20 AM, Morgan Adair at MADAIR@novell.com wrote: > Biblio File: Plays published in Sunstone > by Morgan B. Adair > >> From its first issue (but with a break from '77-'87) Sunstone has been one of >> the > few publishers of Mormon drama. Here are some notes about the plays they have > published. Morgan, Thanks for taking time! S. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: [AML] Autobiographies (was: conservative hatred) Date: 05 Oct 2000 12:29:13 -0600 Re Rex's comment about an autobiography (or other work) putting bread on the table: The tricky part of a book's popularity is marketing. You may be aware that _The Christmas Box_ was marketed extremely heavily, including bus ads and radio ads. _I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better_ by Gary and Joy Lundberg was marketed the same way; both sold amazingly well. I guess you can get a Harry Potter series that sells like wildfire because the stuff is fascinating, but in my experience marketing is really key. You may have written a dynamite book but if it doesn't get marketed, nobody knows. I have to comment about ghostwriting: since I ghostwrite and edit for a living, I would comment that a ghost tries to write as if she were you :). It's partly intuitive and partly just work. It's actually the part of my work I enjoy most--trying to sense and render the author's voice. IMHO many ghostwriters out there in the world miss it, so you sense something out of whack when you read the book. Cathy Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: [AML] Autobiographies (was: conservative hatred) Date: 05 Oct 2000 13:32:55 -0600 >>> prairydog@hotmail.com 10/05/00 12:19PM >>> > >I want to write essays, inspirational stuff, related to my life, but = more=20 >principle-based than telling a chronological story. So write a 10-page summary of your life--names, dates, and places. Then=20 add essays that give your feelings on philosophical matters. Date them, = so=20 as you add to them it will show your growth and learning. Add a few = selected=20 poems or short stories, if you do those. It would be a lot more interesting= to=20 read than "I was born Oct 5, 19whatidy-three in Lizard Bump, Arizona.... MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 05 Oct 2000 14:19:53 PDT >Looked at it this way, we can say God is the consummate artist. His >works of creation can teach us all sorts of things, but none of them >have a "message." We are free to glean whatever message we can perceive >from them. It's only in his essays (i.e., scripture and revelation) that >God teaches messages directly. In his art, his didacticism is as subtle >and open-ended as many of us seem to think our art should be. I both agree and disagree with this. First, I'm not sure it's accurate to say God's "art" doesn't have a message. I think it does. But the message is multifaceted, multileveled, etc. I agree that we are free to take from it what we take from it--but that is not the same, IMO, as saying His art is "open-ended." I think there are particular things we OUGHT to learn from God's art--things He wants us to learn. IOW, I think there's a message (multifaceted as it may be). Just because we're free to miss it, misconstrue it, mistake it for something else, etc., doesn't mean it isn't there. And this goes for ALL God's art--"essays" and landscapes, etc. I don't think God teaches any less-directly when he creates the four seasons than when he has one of his prophets talk about life, death, and resurrection. Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 05 Oct 2000 14:29:14 PDT > > But each > > critic is entitled to his or her own set of criteria--and Thom's (and >mine > > also, by the way) apparently do not include much concern for the >author's > > intent, or what he or she "was hoping to accomplish." > >I never said anything about the author's intent. I was speaking strictly >of the author's choice in material. Actually, if I remember correctly, you were talking about judging the work based on what the writer was trying to accomplish, not on the choice of material. To me, that translates, at least in part, into authorial intent. >I don't see how that can possibly be >included in any reasonable set of critical criteria. It seems completely >self-evident to me that if the critic can dictate what subject matter >the artist can choose, art suffers. If an oppressive government were >dictating such a thing, we would consider it abhorrent. Just because the >critic has less power to enforce his dictations doesn't make the concept >any less abhorrent. That seems quite a leap to me. The critic doesn't "dictate" anything. He/she just critiques--it's only an evaluation, a judgement, an opinion. You are, in fact, doing now precisely that which you're abhorring: as a critic of the critic, you are attempting to "dictate" the material a critic can critique. If it's okay for you to say "the critic can't criticize subject Y (when subject Y=the author's subject matter)," then why can't the critic say "the author can't write about subject X (when subject X=whatever subject the critic doesn't consider valid/valuable)"? > > > Not liking the subject > > matter of what's in front of me is a perfectly valid critical reaction. > >But that's not what Thom said. He went beyond that to say the author >shouldn't be writing about what didn't interest Thom. If a critic says >that the author violated point of view and shouldn't do that, the critic >is well within his jurisdiction. If the critic says the author shouldn't >write about fantasy lovers, he has overstepped his bounds. Only in your opinion, which--as I point out above--is as dictatorial (to use your label) as that which you're condemning. If the artist is free to write about anything, why isn't the critic free to do the same? Art and criticism are not so mutually exclusive, you know... Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 05 Oct 2000 17:29:41 -0500 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > Then let _him_ write about the things he considers more important than > x, y, and z, and not complain that author Q wrote about x, y, or z. Then a person who complains about critic Q and what critic Q has written should not complain either, and should instead write their own criticism. ME: "Who's to say what the critic's business is or isn't?" D. MICHAEL: "Me. I'm as intelligent as the next guy." That's not my point. I meant that critics ought to have some liberty to write as they see fit, and that it's NO ONE'S place to determine what is or isn't okay to criticize. > A critic should actually apologize that he has a prejudice against the > material, and nonetheless strive to be as objective as he can in his criticism > of the methods of presentation. The reader of a review deserves to know that a > critic is lambasting a work because that critic doesn't like love stories, not > because the work was actually bad. Objective criticism? It's not possible. Not in art. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: Re: [AML] (Biblio) Plays Published in Sunstone Date: 06 Oct 2000 04:46:26 JST Thanks, that was great. You left one out, however. Lauer, Robert Frederick. _Digger_. Sunstone, Nov. 1988. Originally performed at BYU in 1982. About Joseph Smith living with the Hales and his moneydigging. So Lauer is the only one to have had two plays in Sunstone. Andrew Hall _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] (On Stag) PRADO, _Sy's Girl_ (Review) Date: 05 Oct 2000 16:02:06 -0600 ON STAGE Sy's Girl Eric Samuelsen Natalie Prado's _Sy's Girl_ is the freshest, most insightful and intelligent = comedy I've seen in LDS Theatre for years. Prado, a current undergraduate = at BYU, is very young. But I believe that she is a talent to be reckoned = with in years to come. I'll be honest; in writing this review, I find myself in an awkward = position. Natalie Prado is a student of mine, and the kind of hard-working= and bright student that professors tend particularly to enjoy teaching. = Natalie workshopped _Sy's Girl_ in the BYU WDA workshop, which I teach. My = favorite director for my own material, AdreAnn Sundrud, directed this = production, on my recommendation. And Eric Snider, of the List and of the = Daily Herald, reviewed the play negatively. I think his review is = mistaken, and so I'm writing one of my own in response. So you're welcome = to dismiss my comments as special pleading. So be it: I think this play = is something very special indeed. I want to share with you just how = valuable and insightful I find it. =20 The story is deceptively simple: Moira is a college student who has = maintained a long-term romantic relationship with Sy, her boyfriend, who = unfortunately does not exist. Her roommate Delia introduces Moira to her = cousin, Quinn. And Moira begins the painful process of weaning herself = from a fantasy, and forming a relationship with a real person.=20 Although the play is about Moira and Sy, theirs is not the central = relationship of the play. In fact, the play focuses far more on Moira's = friendship with Delia, and becomes a very interesting and powerful = examination of the lives of these two single women, who in some ways come = to represent the difficult choices faced by single women in today's = culture. In many ways, in fact, the secondary figure of Delia is the more = fascinating of these two characters. She's complex and interesting; plot = wise, she may only exist to introduce Moira to Quinn, but she's central to = the main dynamic of the play. In psychological terms, she might be termed = an "enabler," in that she is actively complicit in maintaining the Sy = fantasy. (My wife wondered, in fact, which of the two of them, Moira or = Delia, is crazier). But Delia's own history reveals her thematic = centrality to the ideas of the play. She is, we're told, the product of a = divorce. She was raised by her mother, a particularly doctrinaire = feminist, with significant input from her grandmother, a particularly = fervid devotee of Fascinating Womanhood. As a result of this upbringing, = Delia has struggled to form some kind of lasting relationship with men. = She has dated a long string of loser men named Ryan, whom she refers to as = a series of nicknames: "Ryan can you loan me five bucks," "Ryan tortured = artist" and so on. =20 So we have Delia the feminist, but oddly attracted to a book called _Being = Wonderful_, a thinly veiled satire of _Fascinating Womanhood_ or more = contemporary how-to-bag-a-man manuals. Delia is alienated from her family, = but deeply fond of her cousin, whom she mockingly calls a sexist pig, but = who may be the only family member who makes any effort to be her friend. = Delia, the psychology major, who nonetheless supports and encourages and = enables her best friend and roommate's increasingly unhealthy fixation on = Sy. In this character, Natalie explores with great insight and compassion the = position some young women find themselves in today, torn between the = competing demands of independence and loneliness, romantic attraction and = fear of intimacy; sexual feelings, and also corresponding vulnerabilities = and insecurities. And yet Delia is also a real character; her every line = rings true--even the funny ones. Delia is simply an extraordinary = creation. =20 In performance, Rebecca Connerley captures all the contradictions at the = heart of this lonely, compelling young woman. Rebecca's Delia is = genuinely lonely--all the more so when Moira's disaffection from Sy begins = to complicate the fantasy life all three of them share. And yet Rebecca = stalked the stage with the physical self-confidence of the self-proclaimed = feminist. Delia, in this fine actress's version, is confident, determined = and world-wise--and also vulnerable and lonely. She's capable of mocking = the banal pretensions of _Being Wonderful_, while strangely attracted to = the notion of attracting a man. She defines her life in forthright = defiance of societal conventions; and she dresses up like an elf to = deliver Christmas presents to children. She is a strong, capable = woman--with a history of dating losers named Ryan. And as a young woman, = Delia has yet to reconcile those oppositions in her own heart. =20 Eric's review of this show criticized Natalie for making Delia a psych = major who doesn't object to her roommate's fascination with the unhealthy = fantasy Sy represents. But this is an essential aspect of Delia's = character. Delia has intentionally retreated from the world. Rejecting = the polar extremes represented by both her mother and grandmother, Delia = has chosen to withdraw from the battle. Richard Clifford's intentionally = prettified set emphasizes this; these girls live in an idealized environmen= t physically, as well as psychologically. Sy represents a safe haven, a = way for Delia to experience romance vicariously, while still consciously = internalizing her mother's world view. And yet, it is Delia who reaches = out--grumbling all the while--to her frat boy cousin, Quinn. She chooses = to tell Quinn about Sy in an effort to enlist a third--make that fourth--pa= rty in the fantasy. And I believe that she would major in psychology--she'= s honest enough to want to figure out how human beings tick, while still = too frightened to apply her college lessons to her own feelings of = inadequacy and contradiction. Why does Delia tell Quinn about Sy? I suggest that Delia has finally = reached a point of crisis where she's actually trying to merge the two = worlds of the play. Natalie's script even allows a moment when Delia toys = with forming her own relationship with Sy. She chats with him, while = wryly commenting on the fact that she's talking to someone else's = imaginary friend. =20 Moira is the less flamboyant character of the two, and yet she's compelling= in her own right. Moira is, quite frankly, close to a complete mental = breakdown. The stakes are high in this play; at one point Sy threatens = Moira, saying "I'm taking over now," and we shudder at what that might = mean. The innocent romantic attachment she formed when twelve has become = threatening and unhealthy, and in some of the most powerful moments of the = play, Moira is forced to carry on a conversation with Quinn and with her = parents, while Sy almost overwhelms her with his own threats. Sy is = real--he is romantic fantasies turned psychotic and dangerous, and even = when he's funny--and at times, in production, Sy's poses (Lawrence of = Arabia, Wesley from the Princess Bride) are enormously funny, there's an = edge to the humor. Jessica Mockett captures the loneliness and desperation= of Moira's descent towards madness with great clarity and insight. In production, Moira's parents were weakly performed. It's too bad, = because Natalie has created two wonderful characters. Moira's parents are = a good deal older than most parents of college age children would be. = They had been married for fifteen years when Moira was born, and she is an = only child. The distance children feel from their parents is exacerbated, = in this case, by a further age difference, and to watch them slink around = Moira's apartment, looking for her journal, in a desperate attempt to = learn something about their distant and uncommunicative daughter is to = feel, once again, the helplessness of parents everywhere. The week I saw _Sy's Girl_, my teenage son, who is now a freshman in = college, stopped going to classes. He wouldn't say anything about it, but = stayed in his room, playing his guitar and talking for hours on the = telephone. My wife and I spent hours trying to talk to him, but he would = just smile sadly, and tell us that everything was fine and that there was = nothing we could do. Finally, yesterday, he told us that he was very = attached to a girl he'd met at work. They'd dated a few times, and she'd = become the first girl he'd ever kissed. They went to a dance one weekend, = and stayed afterwards in our living room, talking till three in the = morning. He'd then gone to work the next day, and saw her, and she'd told = him that after she'd gone home from their date, an ex boyfriend of hers = had stopped by her house (four in the morning now), asked her to marry = him, and she'd accepted. And so my son was a little depressed by it. =20 You feel so helpless as a parent. You want your kids to be happy, and you = want to be there for them, and you want to know about their lives. But = early adulthood is a difficult period, and one in which kids need to find = their own way. And so, when Moira's parents snoop (and I quite agree that = reading your daughter's journal is completely inappropriate), you = understand why they're forced to. And why Moira is so furious--and why = she's justified in her anger. It's a wonderful moment in the play, when = Moira catches them snooping, and a crucial moment for Moira, who has just = rid herself of Sy, and who now is faced with the prospect of losing = everyone else too--Delia to _Being Wonderful_, Quinn, who supports her = parents, and her parents themselves. =20 I've made this play sound serious and dark. In fact, it's wonderfully = witty and clever and fun. Natalie has the rare talent of taking current, = important issues and ideas and putting her own odd twist on them. _Sy's = Girl_ is a quirky play. It's not for everyone, perhaps. But it's still = one of the most impressive debut dramas I can remember. Remember that = name, Natalie Prado. She's a wonderful young writer. One final note: Eric Snider gave the production a C-minus. I give it an = A--except that I don't give grades to productions. I think the practice = of grading the work of artists utterly degrading and condescending and = ultimately meaningless. (In my writing classes, I grade on effort, not = results). But that aside, I will admit that this play may not be to the = taste of everyone. Natalie's style is offbeat, unusual. But she has a = voice; already she's formed her own voice, and that's wonderful for a = young writer. If you have a chance to see this show, do so. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 06 Oct 2000 09:18:55 -0600 I see another slippery slope: >The "Was it worth doing?" question is a highly subjective one -- I=20 >think it's even more subjective than the other standard review=20 >questions. What I think is very much worth doing, someone else >might=20 >consider absolutely stupid, and vice versa. But when critiquing --=20 >especially in our own personal critiques, and not official, >published = ones -- it's an important question to ask. Why is this a judgment we get to make? What constitutes an invalid reason = to do something? And why do we presume, and what business do we have = presuming, that anything done by anyone claiming to be an artist has been = done for any other reason than to do some good in the world? I really dislike the example of the mechanic ripping off a customer as in = any way describing anything done by any artist. Who are we ripping off? = How precisely does an artist rip people off? (I think Barbra Streisand is = ripping people off by charging 2500 dollars for tickets to her final = concert. And I also suspect that no one paying that kind of money for = that concert feels ripped off.) Okay, so in Utah right now, there's a lot hooraw about rap music, and = about a recent concert in which Eminem and Dr. Dre and some other rap = artists performed. And their performance was full of foul language, = graphically sexual language and graphically violent language. Why? What = are they trying to accomplish? To make a fortune by titillating teenagers?= Maybe. Or to reflect, as serious artists, inner city life, which is = full of graphic violence, foul language, and violent sexuality? Is Eminem = the Emile Zola of our time? =20 I don't know. But I do think it's our obligation to presume good will on = the part of artists. I think the relevant questions are what are they = trying to accomplish and how well did they accomplish it. But was it = worth doing? With all due respect to Herr Goethe (if in fact he did = formulate the Three Questions--I've never found the source for it), I = don't think that's a valid question. =20 "Virtuous, lovely, of good report and praiseworthy." To paraphrase those = last two clauses: if someone, anyone, thinks a work of art is good, has = actually benefitted them, been a force for good in their lives, we must = accept that testimony as valid, for them. And then make up our own minds = about whether it's likely to benefit us. =20 Eric Samuelsen =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] KELLY, _Self Interest_ Date: 07 Oct 2000 03:08:59 JST >From the BYU Universe: (http://newsnet.byu.edu/noframes/show_story.cfm?number=11479&year=current) Student-written plays to be performed Friday By Lee Champion lee@newsroom.byu.edu NewsNet Staff Writer A BYU student takes two original one-act plays to the stage Friday, Oct. 6, in American Fork. "Self Interest" and "Existence" will be playing at the American Fork Amphitheater at 8 p.m. Brigham Kelly, 23, from Highland, Utah, majoring in English, put this night of local talent together. Kelly wrote both pieces and said they were inspired by the relationships and situations he faced growing up in Utah. Preparation for this performance started three months ago, Kelly said. He finished the scripts and approached two of his friends to direct the plays. Kelly is putting these two shows on to help local talent find new ways to become recognized. This is Kelly's first project to help local art, theater, music and film talent, he said. Kelly started a production company to help promote local talent called Hurdy Gurdy Produtions. Darron Johnson, 22, from American Fork, Utah, majoring in linguistics, was asked to direct "Self Interest." Johnson said he thinks what Kelly is doing is important because it gives people different outlets besides the school and local productions that already exist. Johnson said he didn't believe Kelly was serious about this project until he read what Kelly's work. "Once I read through the script and saw its potential, I got excited," Johnson said. The two pieces are comedies but do contain some drama, Johnson said. The situations in both pieces are circumstances that most college students can relate to, Johnson said. Both shows are completely cast with nine BYU students. The show begins at 8 p.m., with a pre-show at 7 p.m. The American Fork Amphitheater is located at 850 E. 700 North in American Fork. Tickets can be bought at the door and are $3 per person. This story was posted on Thursday, October 5, 2000 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] (Curiouser & Curiouser) Mormon Evolution Date: 09 Oct 2000 18:22:37 -0500 CURIOUSER & CURIOUSER: MORMON MUSINGS Mormon Evolution by Edgar C. Snow, Jr. Whenever I visit my parents and our conversation stalls, there is one guaranteed way to rev it up again. All I have to do is say the "e" word: "evolution." It can even be as sneaky and as subtle as: "I just read an essay by Stephen Jay Gould and he says evolution is a fact." Now this may be a morbid thing to say, but just to give you an idea what I'm talking about, if I'm asked to resurrect my mother on the morning of the first resurrection (President Kimball once said resurrection is a priesthood ordinance), I think I could get the job done simply by whispering "evolution" over her grave, and then she'd immediately come forth arguing her way out of the dirt. In fact, coincidentally, I'm currently reading Stephen Jay Gould's _Dinosaur in a Haystack_, one of his many collections of natural history essays. For those of you unfamiliar with Gould, I guess it would be an understatement to say that he's a born-again evolutionist with fussy literary pretensions. I first saw his books in the BYU bookstore in 1981 and knew someday I'd have to read them, if for no other reason because of some of their clever titles and enticingly illustrated book covers: _The Flamingo's Smile_, _Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes_, _The Panda's Thumb_, and _Ever Since Darwin_, to name just a few. But there was another, more serious, reason drawing me to these books in 1981. At that time, as a freshly returned missionary, in my mind I was a Mormon Jedi Knight, and Gould was Darth Vader tempting me to come to the dark side of the Evolutionary Force. Before and during my Swiss mission, I had been moderately interested in resolving evolution with the Genesis account of creation, but just plain too stupid to understand the arguments. But when I came home from Switzerland, I developed a friendship with a fellow southerner at BYU named Julie who was nearly a disciple of Carl Sagan, and she forced me to come to grips with the significant evidence for an ancient earth and the process of organic evolution. I borrowed her copy of _Cosmos_ and compared it to some essays written by Melvin Cook. Cook, a Mormon metallurgist, tried to cast doubt upon radiocarbon dating accuracy and the process of evolution. I also recall Cook had tailored a little bathtub conundrum he claimed disproved radiocarbon dating somehow. I can't remember his argument exactly, but I think he suggested that if you kept the drain open and the faucet running the tub would never fill up, or something like that. Again, I was too ignorant to follow his logic and how it applied to radiocarbon dating. But my ineptitude didn't stop me when I met again with Julie and tried to use Cook's bathtub scenario to disprove not only radiocarbon dating, but also evolution, uniformitarianism, survival of the fittest, communism, socialism, the JFK lone gunman theory, and the Democratic party. And I'm sure I explained the bathtub "proof" with the same force and clarity to her as I have explained it to you. I remember sitting on the floor of her apartment after our discussion, dazed and confused, as she decided to go to bed and left her roommate to console me. To Julie's credit, she was still willing to be my friend after this little incident. I avoided the topic of evolution for several months, fearing that my acceptance of it would make me question several cherished beliefs. Here's an example. Since my parents had tied their genealogy into British royalty in the 1500s and thence all the way back to at least Adam, I used to think my genealogical work was over and done with. However, now that I was entertaining the possibility of evolution being true, I feared I would have even more work to do--stretching back not just thousands, but millions of years. Then one day I stumbled onto _Faith of a Scientist_, by Henry Eyring. Brother Eyring, a chemist, gave me the helpful perspective that Genesis is not a scientific text nor was it intended to be. If God were to give a full, detailed explanation of the creation other than through the sometimes poetic imagery contained in Genesis, we wouldn't even be able to lug our scriptures to church in a wheelbarrow. He also helped me understand that it is the job of science to explain how things work and have developed in the universe, not to explain who started it all or why, whereas the job of religion is to explain who started it all and why, not how it works and has developed. And I've since learned that on this point, Gould nearly agrees with Eyring (see Gould's _Rocks of Ages_). I for one would have benefited from a debate between Eyring and Gould when Brother Eyring was still alive, if just to test the principle of survival of the fittest in action. Or better yet...a wrestling match. My money would have to be on Professor Eyring. I knew one of his former students who said every year Eyring challenged all of his students to at least two contests: (i) a foot race, and (ii) a jumping contest in which you jumped flatfooted from the floor up onto a waist-high table. Brother Eyring apparently never came in last in the foot race and was always able to clear the table without barking his shins. Now, I'm not suggesting that Gould would have been out of shape for such a contest. For all I know, he's an Olympic quality bi-athlete, body builder or curler (perhaps excelling as the one who launches the huge hockey puck with a handle on it or the one who sweeps in front of it). My guess is, though, if you compared professors Gould and Eyring while each of them was in their prime, I suspect Gould wouldn't have been as spry as Eyring. Again, my source of information is one of Gould's graduate students. Tim, my acquaintance--a very nice guy--spent seven years writing his Ph.D. dissertation under Gould's tutelage about the evolution of a kind of prehistoric mouse (a sabertoothed mouse?) over a period of a couple of million years. It would be like studying the evolution of Mickie Mouse by watching all of his cartoons and charting his physical development over time, except maybe not as exciting. I don't know, but I can't imagine anyone who sits around long enough to do this type of research, or, like Gould, who has to read a lot of it, could even finish a race or jump flatfooted off the ground. They wouldn't even need those skills, so there was no need for them to have evolved. Now as we all know from our high school chemistry experiences, Eyring, as a professor of chemistry, would be required to be extraordinarily nimble in order to duck and run from exploding student science projects and jump up onto tables to avoid spilled beakers of hydrochloric acid, which explains his extraordinarily evolved athletic state. Two additional matters finally got me more comfortable with accepting evolution as a valid model for explaining the current evidence for how life on earth got the way it is today. The first was seeing a picture of James Talmage standing with his arm around what I initially thought was J. Golden Kimball. Upon closer viewing and reading the caption, I realized that Talmage had his arm around a pile of erect reconstructed dinosaur bones. Second, through my own study of Mormon history, I have discovered significant evidence showing that Mormons themselves have evolved over time. And now I'd like to end this essay by sharing a few of my own discoveries which I believe will demonstrate to the reader the fact of Mormon evolution. I trust that the following random samples will be self-explanatory and convincing. 72 hour kits Although not an official part of the LDS food storage program, 72 hour kits have been traditionally viewed by many Mormons as an important first step in preparing for every needful thing. Here, for instance, is a list of a few items typically found in the modern 72 hour kit: "1 gallon of freeze-dried water; MREs (to be used for fuel or vermin control); 173 function knife (trying each function provides hours of distraction from real life emergency); handcranked AM/FM radio/wheatgrinder/pasta maker/badger trap; 5 lbs. of wheat; 37 boxes of Pop Tarts; Ronco Pocketfisherman/Sewing Kit/Thigh Master/Flobie (caution--not all functions can be safely used at the same time); Navy Seal Survival Audio Tape Seminar (8 cassettes--6 hours total), tape player and batteries; and 99 hour candle (not to be used in church-owned buildings)." Compare this to the original list of items in the first 72 hour kit developed by Porter Rockwell in 1850: "Bacon; beans (not to be used in church-owned buildings); and biscuits." Rockwell devised this early version of the 72 hour kit shortly after taking one of several baths in 1849. According to a recently discovered journal, unbeknownst to Rockwell, he had been carrying a supply of bacon, beans and biscuits around in his beard sufficient to last one person approximately 3 days. Shortly after this discovery, Rockwell began marketing his "Beard Chock Full O' BB&B." Then, in 1852, Hosea Stout published his groundbreaking preparedness recipe book entitled: Hosea Stout's Hat, Saddle, Boot and Other Leather-Ware Jerky Recipe Book. The development of the storage of the modern 72 hour kit in a back pack rather than in a beard can be traced to the gradual decline of facial hair among Mormon men (and, in some cases, women). Swimsuits The earliest swimsuits in use among Mormons before 1846 mirrored those of their Gentile contemporaries and consisted of what swim suit historians have labeled the "hydro-suit," or "water suit" (aka the "birthday" suit) and were used primarily by boys at waterholes and rivers. Pioneers in early Utah rejected the hydro-suit. By most accounts they apparently did not distinguish between swimsuits and regular clothing, although tweed suits were generally disfavored as swimming wear. By the turn of the 19th century, swim wear among Mormons became more specialized and continued to follow national trends. A good example of post-frontier Mormon swim wear used by General Authorities and their wives can be seen in a fascinating picture reproduced in William H. Slaughter's _Life in Zion_, page 129, featuring J. Golden Kimball, George Albert Smith, James E. Talmage (smiling even--J. Golden must have said something), and young Joseph Fielding Smith in need of a nap. My confidential source in Salt Lake City informs me that after the date of this picture, church policy no longer allowed GAs to be photographed in swimsuits. By the 1940s, however, the development of Mormon swim wear lagged behind national trends, at least respecting women's wear. For instance, up until circa 1980, at BYU--a Mormon fashion trend-setting institution--women's swimsuits featured pants legs extending at least two inches below the derriere, often with sufficient material for the swimsuit pants legs to be cuffed. This style soon became labeled the "Utah Cut" in order to differentiate it from the "French Cut" style. After the removal of the pants leg from the swimsuit in 1990, one anonymous BYU official criticized the change, saying, "Brigham Young were alive today and took one good look at the evolution of Mormon swimwear over the last 100 years, he'd have a heart attack." Horns Until a few months ago, Mormon historians consistently maintained that early Mormons did not have horns. This interpretation was defended for many years, even though non-Mormon sources frequently said early Mormons sported horns, on the grounds that no Mormon source could be found to corroborate these claims. In fact, the standard defense by Mormon historians has always been that the Mormon horns rumor arose from anti-Mormon taunts to missionaries who had left their wives in Utah, a state in which supply (potential wives) could not meet demand (plural wives). The reference to horns came from popular legend in England to the effect that a cuckolded man will grown horns. However, this position is no longer tenable in light of a recent discovery of an unambiguous horn admission by none other than J. Golden Kimball. My confidential source in Salt Lake City claims that Gerald and Sandra Tanner are at this very minute busy writing an extensively documented expose about this shocking coverup, to be titled _Horngate: The Tremendously Huge Mormon Horns Coverup_. In an entry in a controversial personal journal that was locked up in the First Presidency's vault, Kimball makes the following shocking disclosure. On one occasion while missionarying in the South, Kimball presided over an outdoor baptism while Ku Klux Klan members gathered on the other side of the river, whooping and hollering, stirring a pot of tar and breaking open feather-filled pillows. Midway during the baptismal service, the Klan made so much noise that J. Golden had to interrupt the service and address the Klan. He said, "Now I respectfully request that you all keep it down over there. The quieter you are the sooner we'll finish up over here and you can then begin your business. Oh, and one thing. Now you know we Mormons have horns, and if you cross this river and try anything, why we'll gore the hell out of ya!" Relieved by the discovery that Mormon horns grew as an adaptation for self-defense rather than as a result of the adultery of missionary spouses left at home, BYU professors have now begun conducting extensive studies of early Mormon skulls in order to provide data to chart the disappearance of horns from Mormon heads. Preliminary studies suggest that over a long period of time, the horns, although necessary at one time to ward off anti-Mormons, were eventually replaced by church PR programs, and, like the appendix, dwindled away from lack of use. Luggage Only the most ardent anti-evolutionists question the fact that Mormon luggage has evolved over time. The first distinctively Mormon item in this category for our consideration is the handcart. Even handcarts themselves evolved during the few years in which they were in use. For instance, early models generally came in one design and had the following options: wood. Later models carried options such as rack and pinion steering, remote access, and airbags. Later handcarts also came in a variety of models, many of which were modified by teenage pioneers with the addition of flame decals, bumper stickers, and fuzzy dice. With the coming of the railroad, handcarts disappeared of course. The next big innovation in Mormon luggage came with the advent of the scripture tote bag. While many historians trace the tote bag back to the linen table cloth used by Joseph Smith to carry home the golden plates from Hill Cumorah, the first documented case of a recognizable modern tote bag appeared in 1973 in a Laurel class in Sandy, Utah. Sister Johansonjohnsonson transformed a worn-out gunny sack dress into a small bag to carry books to church. Shortly thereafter, entrepreneurs in Utah began marketing similar tote bags through Deseret Book outlets. Today, consumers may purchase scripture tote bags from among the following variety of designs: the Stewardess Model (has extendable metal handles and wheels at the base--fits in all airplane overhead compartments); the Wild Wild West Hip Holster Model (ideal for scripture chase and missionaries); the Fanny Pack Model (for soccer moms on the go); the Phalactery Model (ideal for Jewish converts--quadruple combination easily attaches to your forehead); the Standard Works-Out Model (scriptures form the ends of a barbell for working out anywhere); and the CIA/FBI Shoulder Holster Model (for carrying concealed scriptures). What is the future of Mormon Evolution, you might ask? Stephen Gould is annoyed when people ask him this question. He says the question presupposes that evolution can be charted, as if it is a form of progression, a serious misunderstanding of the fossil record, he claims. I, on the other hand, am not annoyed and will gladly hazard some guesses with respect to the few examples of Mormon evolution I've cited here. If you'll pardon me using some inductive reasoning, based upon the evolution of my very own waistline over the last couple of years, I predict the following: (i) 72 hour kits will no longer be necessary since many of us will carry our own portable fat supply and could easily skip 9 meals; (ii) swimsuits will become unnecessary since you wouldn't even be able to see my swim trunks if my gut continues to evolve at its current rate; (iii) we will no longer need horns or a PR department since we will become a subculture of Sumo wrestlers able to wrestle or, if the need arises, roll over the enemies of Mormonism; and finally, (iv) handcarts will make a come back as "posterior carts" to assist us in hauling our rear ends to church. ===== Among best sellers, Barnes & Noble ranks _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ in its top 100 (thousand, that is). Available now at 10% off http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD& mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) PRADO, _Sy's Girl_ (Review) Date: 06 Oct 2000 15:51:59 -0700 Thanks, Eric. I saw the play on Wednesday night, and I thought it was = quite thought-provoking and much better executed than the early description= s led me to believe. It sounds like it will be light and hoky, but it = plays surprisingly complexly and realistically (except for a few exaggerate= d moments with Moira's parents). Even the imaginary Sy scenes worked = pretty well within the context of the play. Some of the lighting and music = and staging was choppy, but the performances were quite good and the = dialogue and body language extremely natural and believable. I found the = play quite convincing and entertaining, and I too look forward to more = from Prado. I wonder how you would compare this play to Joyce Baking. Not sure when it ends its run at BYU, but it's worth getting to if you = can. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 06 Oct 2000 22:05:16 GMT Eric D. Snider: > > >The "Was it worth doing?" question is a highly subjective one -- I > >think it's even more subjective than the other standard review > >questions. What I think is very much worth doing, someone else >might > >consider absolutely stupid, and vice versa. But when critiquing -- > >especially in our own personal critiques, and not official, >published >ones -- it's an important question to ask. > Eric Samuelsen: >Why is this a judgment we get to make? What constitutes an invalid reason >to do something? And why do we presume, and what business do we have >presuming, that anything done by anyone claiming to be an artist has been >done for any other reason than to do some good in the world? > This is a judgment we get to make because we are the ones spending time and money viewing these works of art. And anything that we consider to have been a waste of our time and money -- something that did not benefit us in any way -- is something we can validly consider "not worth doing." That's why it's so subjective, and why I usually leave it out when I review movies and plays. It's too personal. Let's say a playwright wrote a play that was SUPPOSED to be boring. His whole point was to write something experimental and weird and off-putting and strange and dull, something that would not be "crowd-pleasing" in any sense of the term, something that would have audiences straining to find some meaning, but that simply had no meaning whatsoever. (I believe some playwrights HAVE done this, but I'm not going to tell you which plays, because it will just make people angry.) A production of such a play might live up to everything the playwright intended and thus be a "good" production. But I would insist that, no matter how well done it was, it simply WASN'T WORTH DOING. Would I say that in a review? Probably not. I would indicate what the play's apparent goals are, and indicate that the production succeeds at meeting them. I might add something like, "Not my personal cup of tea, but it's well done." And then I'd let the reader decide whether it was something they would enjoy. But for myself, when I'm watching plays in my spare time (if spare time existed), I would avoid seeing this one because I don't consider it to be worth my time and trouble. Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Richard Dutcher shooting in Mapleton, Utah Date: 06 Oct 2000 22:49:34 EDT David Finnigan of Religion News Service reports that _God's Army_ will be available on video and DVD November 15th. Finnigan also reports that Richard Dutcher was to begin shooting a second movie this week (October 3rd), entitled Brigham City It will be shot in Mapleton, Utah, and is to be a murder mystery. Wilford Brimley will play the town's retired sheriff. Dutcher will be the current sheriff. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 06 Oct 2000 23:48:39 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > I'm not sure it's accurate to > say God's "art" doesn't have a message. I think it does. But the message is > multifaceted, multileveled, etc. I agree that we are free to take from it > what we take from it--but that is not the same, IMO, as saying His art is > "open-ended." This is the essence of the whole debate over didacticism. One side will say, art shouldn't teach. The other side responds that all art teaches something. The truth is, all art does teach something, and all artists have a message they convey in their art, whether intentionally or otherwise. The difference is whether the art has one message and one message only--and that's the one you'd better get to get an A in your literature class--or whether there are many possible messages at many levels. Which message you as the audience get--or even if you create your own message Rorschach-like in the art that's there--depends entirely on what level you're at when you approach a work of art. What makes good art good (or non-didactic) is that the reader is left open to discover his own message in the art, whether the artist planted a specific message or not. God's art has a message, sure. But it's still open-ended because he doesn't beat us over the head with the message. We are free to detect whatever message we are able to detect from it. If you don't get that _Animal Farm_ is about the tyranny of the Soviet Union, you've missed "the" message. But there are myriad other valuable messages you can get out of it, even if you miss "the" message. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 07 Oct 2000 00:18:18 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > Actually, if I remember correctly, you were talking about judging the work > based on what the writer was trying to accomplish, not on the choice of > material. To me, that translates, at least in part, into authorial intent. If it came across that way, I didn't mean it that way. I've no problem with the critic attempting to guess the intent of the author to judge if the author succeeded in his attempt, but I'm talking about declaring certain subjects taboo to the author. I first came across this concept when reading an article in TV Guide many years ago. The article was commenting on a review of some television show about a former slave that was freed because of the Civil War. The review had complained that the show didn't address the modern problems of racism. The article said that was an absurd thing to complain about--it's not the job of the critic to tell the author what subject to address. If the author wanted to write a teleplay about the problems of recently-freed blacks after the Civil War, the critic had no business telling him he shouldn't. I agreed completely with the article then, and I still do now. > The critic doesn't "dictate" anything. He/she > just critiques--it's only an evaluation, a judgement, an opinion. I used the word "dictate" broadly and in a loaded fashion, as I set up the comparison to totalitarian regimes. But the fact is that the critic _is_ attempting to dictate what he thinks good art should be. The only reason his dictation is classified as opinion is because we have a First Amendment and he has no armies at his disposal to enforce it. Can't the censorship of a totalitarian government be considered a form of criticism which judges the subject matter the artist chooses? It gets called censorship because the government has armies to enforce their critical opinion. To me, that seems the only meaningful difference, if we allow the subject matter chosen by the artist to be a valid part of artistic criticism. > You are, > in fact, doing now precisely that which you're abhorring: as a critic of the > critic, you are attempting to "dictate" the material a critic can critique. > If the artist is free to write > about anything, why isn't the critic free to do the same? Art and criticism > are not so mutually exclusive, you know... The critic isn't free to do what the artist does because an artist and a critic are two separate occupations. A brain surgeon is not allowed to to do root canals--it's a different occupation from a dentist, even though there are overlapping characteristics of the two. An artist is supposed to create and communicate. A critic is supposed to react and judge. A critic has no more business telling the artist what to write about than a judge has any business telling a lawyer what approach to take in defending a client. The lawyer should be completely free to choose his approach, and the judge's only duty is to criticize how well the lawyer does at it. (Or the jury, if it isn't a bench trial.) The artist should be free to choose whatever subject he wants to write about, and the critic should only judge how well he wrote about it. If you think otherwise, try this as a critic: no one should write romance novels, because I think they're silly and irrelevant to life. See what reaction you get from Barbara Hume and others. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 07 Oct 2000 00:34:53 -0600 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > I meant that critics ought to have some liberty to > write as they see fit, and that it's NO ONE'S place to determine what is or > isn't okay to criticize. This is just the reverse of the complaint made against my arguments. If the critic should be free to critique the artist how he wants, I should be free to critique the critic how I want. The fact is, whether the complaint is reversed or not, it's all invalid, because the critic has a different job from the artist. I maintain that a critic telling an artist he shouldn't write about certain subjects is merely a form of censorship whose enforcement teeth comes from peer pressure. It's a mild form of McCarthyistic blacklisting, with the reputation of the critic as the empowering force behind it. These are weak enforcement powers, to be sure, but that's the only reason so many people are willing to indulge the critic in this practice which is unhealthy to art. How do I know that? Because the moment someone backs up their critique of an artist's subject matter with a truly effective enforcement power, everyone cries "Censorship!" and starts wearing little loops of ribbon on their lapel in protest. > Objective criticism? It's not possible. Not in art. That's why I said "strive for" it. Everyone already knows that no human is capable of objective anything--they can only strive for it. It's not even possible in something as objective as science--you don't have to restrict it to art. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 07 Oct 2000 11:12:34 -0500 Merlyn Clarke wrote: > On the other hand, officially sponsored art, art that is under-written > by governments or churches or other large, powerful organizations who seek > to advance their agenda (and they all almost always do), must be held in > suspicion. It usually reeks with didacticism. Do you mean things like the Sistine Chapel or Diego Rivera's murals how about the photographs of the Farm Services Adminitstration, or anything done under the National Endowment for the Arts or the National Endowment for the Humanities? How about big, powerful organizations like corporations? I'm thinking of Time/Warner among others. In the Webster's New College, The word didactic has three definitions, of which only the last has any negative connotations. In that last definition, the negative aspect is primarily that the work is too much inclined to teach, that it is boringly pendantic or moralistic. This is interesting to me given this thread, because people have been objecting to didacticism as if there were something gravely wrong even pernicious to didacticism, when the word itself should be used to describe something that is boring. This also reinforces and approach Jason Steed and I have both been taking, which is that didacticism is not something that's in the work but in the reader; moreover, don't we tell bored teenagers that only boring people get bored. I've heard that line more often than I'd care to say. I think that people have been really defining didactic as preaching or sermonizing, not that the work is boring, though I think that's what people are getting to ultimately. People don't like preaching in their art, though some sermons are not bad at all. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Filmmaker LaBute Shooting New Film: Dublin Ireland Date: 07 Oct 2000 15:31:45 EDT Times 30Sep00 A2 [From Mormon-News] LDS Filmmaker LaBute Shooting New Film DUBLIN, IRELAND -- LDS Filmmaker Neil LaBute's latest work, the film version of the A.S. Byatt book "Possession," is currently shooting on location in Yorkshire, England, and news reports reveal that the film has attracted actress Gwyneth Paltrow to the cast. LaBute, along with Laura Jones, adapted the Booker prize-winning novel for the big screen. The plot for the film is not like the screenplays that LaBute has written himself, and is quite different from LaBute's current film, "Nurse Betty," which LaBute directed. "Nurse Betty" has received both critical acclaim and has done well at the box office. "Possession" focuses on the relationship of two Victorian poets, and the modern-day romance that develops between two contemporary academics when they study the poets. The film began shooting the first week of September and should be finished by year end. In addition to Paltrow, who has become almost a household name in the past year or two, the film will star Aaron Eckhart (who has appeared in every LaBute work so far), Jeremy Northam, Jennifer Ehle, Toby Stephens, Anna Massey, Graham Crowden, Trevor Eve and Tom Hollander. Reel News: Cracking Cork fest Dublin Ireland Irish Times 30Sep00 A2 http://www.ireland.com:80/newspaper/features/2000/0930/fea7.htm By Michael Dwyer >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] conservative hatred Date: 09 Oct 2000 23:40:22 -0600 Lee Allred said: > > I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with much of the > latter portion of Gae Lyn's post. > > >>So I wonder if didactic literature is psychologically fear-based? > >>If the author-speaker is unconsciously telling the reader that s/he > >>can't be trusted to make decisions, that the best course is to > >>follow. > > In the national science fiction field, the most active area > in didactic fiction is the "Campbellian"/libertarian branch > of SF whose central premise is the exact antithesis of the > above quoted statement: that (or so they contend) the best > of all possible worlds is one where individual decision > making is supreme and as many cultural, governmental, > economic, etc. barriers to that have been removed, rubbed, > or ridiculed out of existence. I would like to learn more about this. What makes this branch of SF especially didactic? I suppose the first thing we need to do to discuss this is define terms. When I say didactic I'm thinking of literature overtly preachy in tone--the author making sure the reader doesn't miss the lesson by stating it explicitly. If libertarian SF is didactic according to my definition, then it seems like its message that individual decision making is supreme would be contradictory to its own form. > (In fact, perhaps the epitome of a science fictional example > of didactic literature where individual decision making is > looked at as either inconsequential or counter-productive > would be H. G. Wells at his worst. Wells' philosophy and > politics was called many things, but "conservative"--as per > this thread title--was not one of them.) I'm not following you here. Are you equating "conservative" and "didactic"? I imagine that conservative, liberal, or libertarian politics could be placed in a didactic format as per your example above. But the political purpose might begin to overshadow the artistic or literary experience. > > Lastly, the underlying context of her whole last paragraph > > >>So I wonder if didactic literature is psychologically fear-based? > >>...And therefore, in contrast, if open-ended, question-asking > >>literature, sends the underlying message to the reader that he or > >>she is trusted to think about the problem presented and come up > >>with a good answer. > > I've always found this position ("positing answers, > bad--posing questions, good") troubling -- moreso because > oftentimes that position is made is the same fashion as Gae > Lyn has done: positing the "answer" that positing answers is > bad in the form of a question because asking questions is > good. > > To wit: can not questions be just as baldfacedly didactic as > stated answers? Yes, I think that questions can be posed in a way that imply the answer that the speaker is leaning toward. But questions do invite a response. They say (or imply), here is what I think but I'm also interested in knowing what you think. Sometimes questions indicate the speaker is unsure of the answer. Sometimes questions can be overdone--stating opinion forthrightly allows for more direct and honest communication. Sometimes questions are a form of politeness and evidence an attempt at humility. > > The underlying assumption is that there must be an either/or > dichotomy: answers or questions. That is not my assumption. I think that questions and answers go together and create a dialogue of learning. One of Mormonism's great > strengths, one it shares with science btw, is that it > contends a) a bedrock of hard-won universal answers exist; > that b) those foundational truths enable/create more > questions ("There is no end to questions/There is no end to > Truth," as we didactic Kolob-Hiers are wont to assert); and > c) that newfound higher laws can supplant the old bedrock. I can't argue with a bedrock that inspires more questions and learning. Science is certainly always revising its version of truth in the face of new evidence, and the research question is vital in achieving that growth. > > Questions are vital to growth--Christ, as Gae Lyn points > out, often taught with questions, and the Restoration came > from a farm boy's simple question. But are not the answers > to those questions as important as the questions themselves > were? Both are vital. Is that not so? I agree. Just stopping with questions alone would be rather pointless. But answers, answers, answers with no questions allowed is just as deadening. Gae Lyn Henderson > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 09 Oct 2000 01:25:21 -0600 "Eric D. Snider" wrote: > I think a relevant question when critiquing something, along with > "What was it trying to accomplish?" and "Did it succeed?" is "Was it > worth doing?" I don't think that's the same thing as saying, "Artists shouldn't write about such and such a subject." Because a tenth production of "Joseph and..." in the last month in the same geographic area is not worth doing, doesn't mean the subject was never worth writing about. Just because releasing _Armageddon_ and _Deep Impact_ at the same time and both films were mediocre anyway (i.e., one or both weren't worth doing) doesn't mean the subject of extraterrestrial debris hitting the Earth isn't worth writing about--if you bother to to a good job with it. Subjects _can't_ be not worth doing, because you never know what an artist will do with it. A subject that most people may consider beaten to death can be picked up by a gifted artist and developed into a totally fresh experience. It's all in the implementation. I also don't think you can compare Satan's efforts to thwart the kingdom of God and a mechanic's efforts to rip you off to honest art that may choose a subject you don't think is worth doing. The first two are acts of immorality, the art is not. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] NEWSFLASH Good/Bad News about BYU SF&F Symposium Date: 09 Oct 2000 15:29:19 -0600 (MDT) I'll start with the good news first - other than the video room being in a different room each day, and some tight scheduling saturday morning, we have all teh rooms we need plus some for the symposium. The bad news - someone higher up on the University pecking order decided they needed all our rooms the weekend of March 22-24, 2001. So we lost all of our rooms. THE SYMPOSIUM IS NOW MARCH 1-3, 2001. THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT THIS. The scheduling office was actually very nice and worked with us as best they could, but they couldn't do much about it because 1.) the people who wanted the rooms are MUCH more important than us and 2.) they've been forbidden to tell us who these MUCH more important people are. Repeat: The symposium is now March 1-3, 2001. I will have to contact our guests and see if they can rearrange their schedules, and if not, we will have to find new guests. All we can hope is that more important people than us don't decide they also need March 1-3. If you have any questions/suggestions/complaints/death threats please email them to me at ltue@byu.edu -Ivan Wolfe Tyrant for another 6 months (with very big headache). - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 09 Oct 2000 22:36:46 -0500 I think that I've found some good commentary on the whole idea of pleasure-seeking and so forth. It comes from the Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.646 "While the resources of our planet are both perishable and renewable, time cannot be recycled. We must be reminded that when time is spent in too much pleasure seeking, the serious and eternal things will be left undone. Self-centered, pleasure-seeking people will not only plunder our environment much more rapidly, but they will be less concerned about the needs of their fellow human beings." ("A Spiritual Approach to Man-made Problems," Brigham Young University -- Hawaii, 11 February 1983.) That's what I was getting at, but, of course, President Benson said it better than I and with a bit more authority. I also enjoy and value the fact that pleasure-seekers are more likely to do wrong by the environment. For LDS writers--since that IS the focus of this list--the idea that too much pleasure-seeking will keep us from being as concerned for the "needs of [our] fellow beings" is an important one, since it is my contention that one of the primary virtues of literature is its ability to help people empathize with each other. Being a writer isn't so much about writing down words and characters and plots as it is practicing a special kind of attention, to the world and to language. This is an idea a stole from William Stafford and Barry Lopez and gave my own spin. Being LDS makes me a better person than I would be on my own, so I feel it makes me a better writer. I pay closer attention to people and their trials, which makes me better able to relate to them and to invent characters that might be able to offer insights. I'd be interested to know if there are others who feel that their faith is not a liability, but rather an asset to their writing (even if the editors out there haven't yet recognized the strength). -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis Manning" Subject: [AML] Writing Groups (was: HUGHES, _Children of the Promise_ Vol. 5) Date: 09 Oct 2000 18:44:20 MDT >Just finished volume 5 of the Children of the Promise series and I have to >say that the afterword made me very sad. . . . So, buyer beware when you >start reading these >books. He keeps you wanting more... > >Marianne Hales Harding > **************** That Dean Hughes is a sneaky one! I was in his workshopping group at BYU's first Writers for Young Readers Conference and learned a lot. Switching gears. I'm searching for contact info on the League of Utah Writers or another such regular writing / workshopping group that can help critique my writing. I'm putting together a children's book and writing a YA novel and I would really like to rub shoulders once or twice a month with published authors, artists, educators, librarians, profs, publishers, anyone who knows what they're really doing in the field of children's and YA lit. I'm busting at the seams here wanting to get published, but know I could really use some quality feedback, critiques, mentoring, encouragement. If anyone knows of a quality group in the downtown Salt Lake City area that is allowing new group members . . . please let me know, either on-list or off. That would be much appreciated. Travis K. Manning "Men and women die; philosophers falter in wisdom, and Christians in goodness: if any one you know has suffered and erred, let him look higher than his equals for strength to amend, and solace to heal." (Jane Eyre) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Moral Issues in Art (moderator message) Date: 09 Oct 2000 23:03:01 -0500 Folks, My sense is that rather than sharing new thoughts, we've reached the point in this thread (most especially the portion of it about didacticism) of repeating, sometimes with increasing heat, the points we've already made. I'm going to invite all those currently discussing didacticism in art to prepare final statements (as it were) during the next 24 hours, and then move on either to a different topic or to as-yet unexplored dimensions of this one. I'd also like to encourage posts from those who have not yet expressed their thoughts on this or related issues. Not meaning to squelch discourse, but to keep the conversation moving... Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Allred Subject: [AML] Didactic SF&F (was: conservative hatred) Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:14:23 -0600 Gae Lyn writes: >>What makes this branch of SF especially didactic? Hoo boy. Where to start? Let's just say the sub-genre's nominal founder, John Campbell, Jr., was an...um...especially didactic editor. >>If libertarian SF is didactic according to my definition, then it >>seems like its message that individual decision making is supreme >>would be contradictory to its own form. Don't say that too loud around certain sf writers. The literature might be viewed as a "preaching to the choir," not really an asking of its readers to make any decisions; rather, a validation of readers' already-made worldview decisions. --Lee Allred www.leeallred.com leea@sff.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: [AML] Faith as an Asset in Writing (was: Moral Issues in Art) Date: 09 Oct 2000 22:31:11 -0600 "Todd Robert Petersen (by way of Jonathan Langford )" wrote: > > I'd be interested to know if there are others who feel that their faith is > not a liability, but rather an asset to their writing (even if the editors > out there haven't yet recognized the strength). To balance your life and your art There's got to be faith in your heart. If you think faith is not An asset to your jot You're bankrupt before you can start. Tom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Faith as an Asset in Writing (was: Moral Issues in Art) Date: 10 Oct 2000 00:30:26 -0600 "Todd Robert Petersen" wrote: > I'd be interested to know if there are others who feel that their faith is > not a liability, but rather an asset to their writing (even if the editors > out there haven't yet recognized the strength). Of course it's an asset. First of all, since my faith encompasses eternal truths (an assertion which would be disputed by non-Mormons, but is nonetheless true), it helps me instill my writing with eternal truths. Second of all, since a great deal of the world's literature is from the secular, non-religious point of view, my faith gives me a point of view which is fresh and distinct from the world's literature, even if I don't write overtly religious material. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing Groups Date: 10 Oct 2000 04:38:34 -0600 Travis Manning wrote: "I'm busting at the seams here wanting to get published, but know I could really use some quality feedback, critiques, mentoring, encouragement. If anyone knows of a quality group in the downtown Salt Lake City area that is allowing new group members . . . please let me know. . ." Travis, I'm not sure how far you are willing to travel, but there is a very active picture book critique group that meets once a month at the Orem library. Rick Walton, Toni Brown, and a number of other published writers are regulars. Let me know if you are interested, and I can give you the particulars! Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jana bouck remy" Subject: [AML] Authors at School Date: 10 Oct 2000 09:08:30 -0700 I've just been put in charge of the Fine Arts assemblies at my son's elementary school and would like to know how I can incorporate author visits into our program. Does anyone know if there is a website that lists authors in a particular area and their assembly fees? Jana Remy - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Writing Groups Date: 10 Oct 2000 10:19:00 -0600 Travis K. Manning wrote: >Switching gears. I'm searching for contact info on the League of >Utah Writers or another such regular writing / workshopping group >that can help critique my writing. I'm putting together a >children's book and writing a YA novel and I would really like to >rub shoulders once or twice a month with published authors, artists, >educators, librarians, profs, publishers, anyone who knows what >they're really doing in the field of children's and YA lit. > >I'm busting at the seams here wanting to get published, but know I >could really use some quality feedback, critiques, mentoring, >encouragement. > >If anyone knows of a quality group in the downtown Salt Lake City >area that is allowing new group members . . . please let me know, >either on-list or off. That would be much appreciated. The League of Utah Writers' web site is http://luwrite.tripod.com/ It should have info on specific chapters' meeting times and places. Many writers groups meet at libraries, so ask your local librarian. There are also a number of online writer's groups, like Michael Martindale's Worldsmiths, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths There are also a number of science fiction groups around, but they don't usually do YA or children's fiction specifically as far as I know. Let me know if you want more info on these. Come to the annual AML writer's workshop at UVSC in Orem on November 4 and you'll probably find others who have similar interests. Or try the sf/f symposim at BYU March 1-3; they usually have some panels on children's and YA lit. And if all else fails, start your own group! Ask for members from this list or post flyers at libraries or during conferences or at a nearby university. Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Authors at School Date: 10 Oct 2000 10:41:08 -0600 Jana Remy wrote: >I've just been put in charge of the Fine Arts assemblies at my son's >elementary school and would like to know how I can incorporate >author visits into our program. Does anyone know if there is a >website that lists authors in a particular area and their assembly >fees? Rick Walton keeps a list of Utah children's writers and illustrators at http://www.rickwalton.com/utahauth.htm, many of whom are willing to visit schools, and the site lists fees and contact info. The League of Utah Writers' speaker's bureau contact is Kathy Jones (kathy.jones@deseretonline.com). The Science Fiction Writers of America speaker's bureau contact is Kathleen Woodbury in SLC (workshop@burgoyne.com). Many sf writers are willing to visit schools. Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) PRADO, _Sy's Girl_ (Review) Date: 10 Oct 2000 10:51:06 -0600 Chris asked: >I wonder how you would compare this play to Joyce Baking. Great question. I directed Joyce Baking, so again, I'm hardly objective, = but let me see if I can compare them. Josh Brady wrote Joyce Baking while an undergrad, a comedy about dating = relationships, specifically at BYU. Natalie Prado wrote Sy's Girl while = an undergrad, a comedy about dating relationships, not at BYU. There are, = however, some differences. Josh is far more didactic than Natalie. (Oh no, the dreaded didacticism = thread!) Josh was interested in exploring hypocricy, the ways in which = BYU students--his peers--seem to seriously misunderstand and misapply the = gospel. As a result, Josh wrote a comedy with a tragic ending; Joyce = bakes, but Joyce also falls. Intermingled with quite sharp eyed satire on = BYU dating customs were scenes in which we saw students teaching particular= ly dreadful, clueless priesthood lessons, for example. Those sections = were cringeworthily funny too, because Josh has such a superb ear for = dialogue. Josh particularly catches the voice of women well. And I = discovered in rehearsal that his dialogue wasn't very cutable. Is that a = word? You couldn't cut it. Josh is so intent on capturing the rhythm of = human speech that our main rehearsal task was finding the right rhythm for = each specific scene.=20 Natalie is subtler. She's somewhat less specifically didactic, and her = voice is more literary. Her characters are wittier than Josh's and = cleverer, because her diction is slightly heightened. She can get away = with, for example, a discussion of the differences between surrealism in = Dali and in Magritte. Her characters are more self-aware, more self-consci= ously literary. And, of course, simultaneously crazier than the characters= in Josh. Natalie writes characters who constantly reflect and consider; = odd, because they're also fairly crazy. Josh's characters are nowhere = near as reflective. They're not stupid, but they are fairly clueless, and = they have an infinite capacity for rationalization. Joyce never quite = understands what's going on between her and the man she's fallen for. = Natalie's characters are fully aware of what's going on, but think even = the loopiest behaviors are just fine. =20 The biggest difference between them, Chris suggested in his response to = the play. Josh understands theatre. His work is intensely theatrical, = and Joyce Baking just clipped along. Natalie is an English major dabbling = in theatre, and she doesn't quite get it yet. Her play lurches a bit, = with unfortunate pauses between scenes that really hurt the momentum. =20 I think they're both terrific young writers. I don't know which of them = has more potential. It's really a joy to have worked with them both. = They're both intelligent, clear sighted, hard working and agreeable = people. And I would cheerfully work with either of them again.=20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dorothy Peterson" Subject: Re: [AML] Authors at School Date: 10 Oct 2000 09:58:19 -0700 Jana, Do you know about PWOC (Professional Writers of Orange County)? They have a web site and you can add yourself to their mailing list (they are not accepting new members for some reason). I'll bet they could help you. I haven't looked in my archive of email to see, but if you do not know about them let me know and I'll conduct a search for some contact information. Dorothy ________ Dorothy W. Peterson http://www.lds-index.org dorothy@lds-index.org Read Dorothy's Novel at: http://www.lds-index.org/windows/windows.htm ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:08 AM > > I've just been put in charge of the Fine Arts assemblies at my son's > elementary school and would like to know how I can incorporate > author visits into our program. Does anyone know if there is a > website that lists authors in a particular area and their assembly > fees? > > Jana Remy > > > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 09 Oct 2000 20:30:30 PDT >I used the word "dictate" broadly and in a loaded fashion, as I set up >the comparison to totalitarian regimes. But the fact is that the critic >_is_ attempting to dictate what he thinks good art should be. The only >reason his dictation is classified as opinion is because we have a First >Amendment and he has no armies at his disposal to enforce it. Can't the >censorship of a totalitarian government be considered a form of >criticism which judges the subject matter the artist chooses? It gets >called censorship because the government has armies to enforce their >critical opinion. To me, that seems the only meaningful difference, if >we allow the subject matter chosen by the artist to be a valid part of >artistic criticism. But subject matter is always a part of criticism--it all depends on where you draw the line delineating "subject matter" (content) from, say, "form." IMO, the two can't be wholly separated, because they inform and shape one another. If I criticize the use of the sonnet form (which is ok, according to you, because it is criticizing the "how" of the art, not the "what"), saying that the material would have been better suited for a ballad or an ode, then I am likewise criticizing the "what"--because writing the "what" with a different "how" will change the "what" and vice versa. And it might be important to point out here--because I'm noticing some confusion--that "criticism" is not altogether the same as "review." Serious criticism of art, literature, film, is far more sophisticated than your average newspaper review (which basically just says "this was good/bad, and here are some basic reasons why"). And almost ALL criticism, throughout literary and artistic history, addresses subject matter in one way or another, almost ALL the time. > > > You are, > > in fact, doing now precisely that which you're abhorring: as a critic of >the > > critic, you are attempting to "dictate" the material a critic can >critique. > > > If the artist is free to write > > about anything, why isn't the critic free to do the same? Art and >criticism > > are not so mutually exclusive, you know... > >The critic isn't free to do what the artist does because an artist and a >critic are two separate occupations. A brain surgeon is not allowed to >to do root canals--it's a different occupation from a dentist, even >though there are overlapping characteristics of the two. An artist is >supposed to create and communicate. A critic is supposed to react and >judge. A critic has no more business telling the artist what to write >about than a judge has any business telling a lawyer what approach to >take in defending a client. The lawyer should be completely free to >choose his approach, and the judge's only duty is to criticize how well >the lawyer does at it. (Or the jury, if it isn't a bench trial.) The >artist should be free to choose whatever subject he wants to write >about, and the critic should only judge how well he wrote about it. I fundamentally disagree with this. Your analogies are false analogies, because they take professions that have little or nothing to do with one another (none of the training for one overlaps with the training for the other), and they compare the relationship between the two with the relationship between two facets of the same profession. Artists and critics are just that--two parts of the same profession. Both center themselves on art, they just come at it from slightly different angles. In fact, I would go so far as to say that serious criticism is another genre of literature (and I'm not alone in this notion--most anthologies of lit will contain excerpts of poetry, drama, fiction, and nonfiction, and often a portion of the works of nonfiction are works of criticism). Furthermore, serious criticism inspires and influences and shapes entire movements in art (e.g. the Russian formalists and Modernism, or Wordsworth's Preface to the Lyrical Ballads and Romanticism); and reciprocally, art often motivates and affects and produces new aesthetic theory, or criticism (i.e. readers get creative with how to read a given work in order to get meaning out of it). Separating the two into opposing camps is, frankly, a reductive act that constructs a binary that, along with most binaries, has been and ought to be deconstructed. As I have said before: all art is in some ways critical, and all criticism is in some ways creative. In the end, it's all WRITING (or "literature"). If the artist is free to write about whatever he/she wants, then so is the critic--and you, as a critic OF the critic, are likewise free. I only wish to point out that you're using your freedom to limit the freedom of another. Of course, you will quickly point out that the critic who criticizes subject matter is doing the same thing--and you're right: it all comes down to persuasion. Can the critic convince his audience to agree with what he/she is saying? In your criticism of the critic, my answer is "no"--your arguments for why the critic should be limited in what he/she can write about are not convincing. >If you think otherwise, try this as a critic: no one should write >romance novels, because I think they're silly and irrelevant to life. >See what reaction you get from Barbara Hume and others. Just because I may get a violent reaction from others does not mean I cannot say what I say. Critics have dealt with whole populations disagreeing with them for centuries. You don't want the opinion of the critic to limit the artist, yet you expect the opinion of the artist to limit the critic. It just doesn't work that way. Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 09 Oct 2000 20:01:24 PDT >The truth is, all art does teach something, and all artists >have a message they convey in their art, whether intentionally or >otherwise. The difference is whether the art has one message and one >message only--and that's the one you'd better get to get an A in your >literature class--or whether there are many possible messages at many >levels. 1. I completely disagree that "didactic art" is art that just has one meaning, vs. "good art" which has multi-meanings. Meaning is constructed, subjective, contextual--how could you ever judge a work to only have "one" meaning and then label it didactic? 2. I also completely disagree with the comment about literature classes. There may be profs out there who are stodgy and bent on one particular interpretation of a work, but by and large--especially these days--nobody is so reductive as to believe works have a "right" interpretation, and I do everything in my power to try to convince my students that there's no such thing. >Which message you as the audience get--or even if you create >your own message Rorschach-like in the art that's there--depends >entirely on what level you're at when you approach a work of art. What >makes good art good (or non-didactic) is that the reader is left open to >discover his own message in the art, whether the artist planted a >specific message or not. The reader ALWAYS "creates" meaning in the text. The reader is part of the context in which the text exists, and from which the text gets its meaning. The text cannot have any meaning without the reader (even if the reader is the writer). >God's art has a message, sure. But it's still open-ended because he >doesn't beat us over the head with the message. We are free to detect >whatever message we are able to detect from it. If you don't get that >_Animal Farm_ is about the tyranny of the Soviet Union, you've missed >"the" message. But there are myriad other valuable messages you can get >out of it, even if you miss "the" message. Just because God doesn't beat us over the head with his message does not mean it's open-ended. There are certain things God WANTS us to get. Just because we don't get them, or we're free to ignore them, does not mean they're not there. Our ineptness as readers is not what makes good art "good." On the other hand, it is sometimes our *creativity* as readers that makes a mediocre work better. Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Writing Groups Date: 10 Oct 2000 13:10:18 EDT In a message dated 10/10/00 8:49:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, glennsj@inet-1.com writes: << Travis Manning wrote: "I'm busting at the seams here wanting to get published, but know I could really use some quality feedback, critiques, mentoring, encouragement. If anyone knows of a quality group in the downtown Salt Lake City area that is allowing new group members . . . please let me know. . ." Travis, I'm not sure how far you are willing to travel, but there is a very active picture book critique group that meets once a month at the Orem library. Rick Walton, Toni Brown, and a number of other published writers are regulars. Let me know if you are interested, and I can give you the particulars! >> I also have a middle grade/ YA critique group in Orem that meets at my house once a month. We don't have the famous professionals as Sharlee's group, but we do have well read members who are serious about the craft. Sharlee, I would love to hear more about your group. What days do you meet? Lisa J. Peck Lisa J. Peck - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: [AML] Mormon Writers Reference Date: 10 Oct 2000 11:03:19 PDT I know that there are bibliographies out there, but I'm wondering if anyone knows of a reference source on Mormon writers. I was in the university library the other day and found a "Biographical Dictionary of Contemporary Catholic American Writing," and I'm looking for something along these lines--information not on Mormon works published, but on the Mormon authors themselves. Any help? Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bwillson01" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing Groups Date: 10 Oct 2000 12:31:13 -0600 Travis, Have you tried the League of Utah Writers? Look them up on the internet if you're interested. They have a website and a chapter that meets in SLC. PS: Sorry folks, since the end of August I've just been a lurker. I'm back in school, this time to finish! Bill Willson > Travis Manning wrote: > > "I'm busting at the seams here wanting to get published, but know I could > really use some quality feedback, critiques, mentoring, encouragement. > If anyone knows of a quality group in the downtown Salt Lake City area that > is allowing new group members . . . please let me know. . ." > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] J. Scott BRONSON, _Stones_ (Reading) Date: 10 Oct 2000 12:19:48 -0600 Just a reminder that you are invited to a play reading: Stones: Two Plays About Sacrifice by J. Scott Bronson Provo Theatre Company will present the reading in their theatre which is located on the corner of 100 North and 100 East in Provo at 7:30 pm on the evening of Tuesday, October 10th. Admission is free, and you are invited to attend with anyone you would like to bring with you -- it will be a unique theatrical experience. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: Re: [AML] HUGHES, _Children of the Promise_ Vol. 5 Date: 10 Oct 2000 14:53:09 MDT He doesn't have to do the typing himself! He could dictate it into a little tape recorder and *I'd* do the typing. :-) Marianne >In August I emceed and played for a musical program at the LDS Booksellers >Convention where the Indepent Booksellers (all the various one- and >two-store mom/pop book businesses) gave Dean Hughes an award. > >Afterward we chatted briefly and I noticed he was wearing wrist braces on >both hands. I said something brilliant and witty like, "you've just been >writing too much," to which he replied quite seriously, "Yes, exactly." > >Sorry Marianne, I guess we'll just have to give the guy a break and let the >series be over for now. > >;-) > >Occupational hazard--too bad. > >Steve > >-- >skperry@mac.com >http://StevenKappPerry.com > >"Outside of a dog, man's best friend is a book; >inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx > > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Death of the Author (was: Moral Issues in Art) Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:27:50 -0700 Continuing my reply to Jason Steed's thoughtful Mon, 02 October post. (I can see from Jonathan's new thread title that breaking the post where I did gave the impression I was going to talk more about Wolverton. I only broke it there because of length. I'll have to talk more about Wolverton after the RMMLA conference (which, when I wrote this last week, was next week but now is this week). [MOD: Poor Harlow! And now I've given this part of the reply a different thread title yet again...] Jason said, > As Barthes has proclaimed, "the author is dead." Once a work of art > is created, the author can have nothing to do with it--he or she > (or at least his or her intent) is severed from the text. In practice this is simply not true. For example, when Grant Speed creates a statue for Texas Tech he retains certain rights to that statue even though the university owns the physical object. They don't have the right to, say, dismantle it (as an administrator at UVSC did to a sculpture a few years back). We acknowledge artists' authority over a work every time we edit a collection of their letters or essays--or compare drafts to each other and the published work--in hopes of illuminating the work and the author. Indeed textual criticism--the discipline that attempts to define, restore, recover an accurate, correct text of a literary work--would be impossible without assuming the author has certain kinds of intentions and that those intentions are important. When I want to see whether an edition of Shaxbeard is any good I look at Othello, III, iii, 385 (line numbering varies in some editions) where Othello is reacting to Iago's accusations against Desdemona. The most common reading is I'll have some proof. Her name, that was as fresh As Dian's visage, is now begrimed and black As mine own face That reading is from the quarto, but the folio reads, My name, that was as fresh As Dian's visage, is now begrimed and black As mine own face The folio variant says something dramatically different about Othello than the quarto variant. It tells us that he's mainly concerned about his own reputation. An editor's choice of variant depends partly on what the editor believes Avon's beard wants us to believe about Othello, based on the textual evidence. In this case there's textual evidence for both readings. 'Her name' and 'Dian's' occur within five feet of each other, or one line length, so they belong together. Further, Diana is the goddess of chastity. To have "her name" on one line and Dian's name on the next makes a very nice parallel between Diana and Desdemona, and parallelism is one of the commonest rhetorical tools for emphasis. But there's another parallel within the same three lines, 'My name' and 'mine own face.' One textual critic argued that the word 'own' doesn't make sense unless Othello is talking about his name as well as his face. The natural comparison is her name / my face. Othello would only emphasize that it was his own face if he was talking about something else that belonged to him, like his name. When you're choosing between two variants that affect the meaning so differently and there's good textual evidence for each variant, how do you decide? One way is to examine what you think the author intended to convey with those lines. The variant closest to that intent goes in your edition, the other in the footnotes (if you use footnotes). > We don't read a text asking "what is the author _trying_ to say" And yet this question can be exceedingly valuable. I treasure the insights that question allows Reynolds Price to show us in "A Single Meaning: Notes on the Origins and Life of Narrative," the introduction to _A Palpable God_. Discussing the story of Jacob's wrestle at Penuel Price says, "a modern reader, religious or not, faced with the final text, whatever its vicissitudes and earlier forms, is likely to ask the central question first--_What does this story ask me to believe?_ Either kind of reader would surely say _It asks me to believe precisely what it says_" (32). Of course, Price is using a rhetorical device. He's well aware that many modern readers don't ask what the story wants them to believe, that there are readers who accept the story as scripture but don't believe it records an actual event. He's also well aware that there are people who don't believe the story precisely because they recognize that it asks them to believe that what is says happened happened. Asking what a story wants you to believe allows Price to examine how Bible stories and held him (and millions more "over nearly four millennia" (33)) in "helpless belief." Which is dream of any storyteller, to give the readers the deep satisfaction and comfort of belief in truth. Price uses this technique of asking what a story, and its teller, wants us to believe in his second book of translations, _Three Gospels_, to show how astonishing are Mark and John's claims that Yahweh actually came down to earth and lived and died here and took up his body again. (This is a wonderful book. The third gospel, Price's own narrative of Jesus' life is a fine work too, as is his account of why he wrote a gospel.) Thanks for your posts Jason. I'm preparing a paper for RMMLA next week about how critical theory has taught us to relate to literature, and how that teaching affects (badly) the way artists are able to function in society. I don't know how much of my recent posts will make it into the paper, but it's good to have a place to sound out my ideas, and serendipitous to have a thread arise that's congenial to exploring issues I care about. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Death of the Author (was: Moral Issues in Art) Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:27:50 -0700 Continuing my reply to Jason Steed's thoughtful Mon, 02 October post. (I can see from Jonathan's new thread title that breaking the post where I did gave the impression I was going to talk more about Wolverton. I only broke it there because of length. I'll have to talk more about Wolverton after the RMMLA conference (which, when I wrote this last week, was next week but now is this week). [MOD: Poor Harlow! And now I've given this part of the reply a different thread title yet again...] Jason said, > As Barthes has proclaimed, "the author is dead." Once a work of art > is created, the author can have nothing to do with it--he or she > (or at least his or her intent) is severed from the text. In practice this is simply not true. For example, when Grant Speed creates a statue for Texas Tech he retains certain rights to that statue even though the university owns the physical object. They don't have the right to, say, dismantle it (as an administrator at UVSC did to a sculpture a few years back). We acknowledge artists' authority over a work every time we edit a collection of their letters or essays--or compare drafts to each other and the published work--in hopes of illuminating the work and the author. Indeed textual criticism--the discipline that attempts to define, restore, recover an accurate, correct text of a literary work--would be impossible without assuming the author has certain kinds of intentions and that those intentions are important. When I want to see whether an edition of Shaxbeard is any good I look at Othello, III, iii, 385 (line numbering varies in some editions) where Othello is reacting to Iago's accusations against Desdemona. The most common reading is I'll have some proof. Her name, that was as fresh As Dian's visage, is now begrimed and black As mine own face That reading is from the quarto, but the folio reads, My name, that was as fresh As Dian's visage, is now begrimed and black As mine own face The folio variant says something dramatically different about Othello than the quarto variant. It tells us that he's mainly concerned about his own reputation. An editor's choice of variant depends partly on what the editor believes Avon's beard wants us to believe about Othello, based on the textual evidence. In this case there's textual evidence for both readings. 'Her name' and 'Dian's' occur within five feet of each other, or one line length, so they belong together. Further, Diana is the goddess of chastity. To have "her name" on one line and Dian's name on the next makes a very nice parallel between Diana and Desdemona, and parallelism is one of the commonest rhetorical tools for emphasis. But there's another parallel within the same three lines, 'My name' and 'mine own face.' One textual critic argued that the word 'own' doesn't make sense unless Othello is talking about his name as well as his face. The natural comparison is her name / my face. Othello would only emphasize that it was his own face if he was talking about something else that belonged to him, like his name. When you're choosing between two variants that affect the meaning so differently and there's good textual evidence for each variant, how do you decide? One way is to examine what you think the author intended to convey with those lines. The variant closest to that intent goes in your edition, the other in the footnotes (if you use footnotes). > We don't read a text asking "what is the author _trying_ to say" And yet this question can be exceedingly valuable. I treasure the insights that question allows Reynolds Price to show us in "A Single Meaning: Notes on the Origins and Life of Narrative," the introduction to _A Palpable God_. Discussing the story of Jacob's wrestle at Penuel Price says, "a modern reader, religious or not, faced with the final text, whatever its vicissitudes and earlier forms, is likely to ask the central question first--_What does this story ask me to believe?_ Either kind of reader would surely say _It asks me to believe precisely what it says_" (32). Of course, Price is using a rhetorical device. He's well aware that many modern readers don't ask what the story wants them to believe, that there are readers who accept the story as scripture but don't believe it records an actual event. He's also well aware that there are people who don't believe the story precisely because they recognize that it asks them to believe that what is says happened happened. Asking what a story wants you to believe allows Price to examine how Bible stories and held him (and millions more "over nearly four millennia" (33)) in "helpless belief." Which is dream of any storyteller, to give the readers the deep satisfaction and comfort of belief in truth. Price uses this technique of asking what a story, and its teller, wants us to believe in his second book of translations, _Three Gospels_, to show how astonishing are Mark and John's claims that Yahweh actually came down to earth and lived and died here and took up his body again. (This is a wonderful book. The third gospel, Price's own narrative of Jesus' life is a fine work too, as is his account of why he wrote a gospel.) Thanks for your posts Jason. I'm preparing a paper for RMMLA next week about how critical theory has taught us to relate to literature, and how that teaching affects (badly) the way artists are able to function in society. I don't know how much of my recent posts will make it into the paper, but it's good to have a place to sound out my ideas, and serendipitous to have a thread arise that's congenial to exploring issues I care about. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jana bouck remy" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Marion SMITH, _Riptide_ (Review pt. 1) Date: 11 Oct 2000 08:32:40 -0500 Marion Smith. Riptide. Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1999. 199 pp. $14.95. ISBN 1-56085-131-7 Review by Lavina Fielding Anderson In what has to be one of the most gripping and tension-filled opening chapters of any Mormon novel, Laurel Greer, sixty-three-year-old mother of five and grandmother of seven, crouches on the floor of her ex-son-in-law's car, forces him to drive to an abandoned road in Parley's Canyon above Salt Lake City, makes him stop the car, puts the gun to his head and pulls the trigger, then curls his fingers around the butt. Then another son-in-law takes her to her car and she drives south toward Las Vegas where, to establish her alibi, her daughter has already gone with Duncan, Laurel's husband. The journey south through the night reveals the motive for Clint's murder and draws the reader into its moral dimensions. Laurel had been driving her seven-year-old granddaughter Elizabeth to her piano lesson when a chance comment about "the baby videos" triggered such a panicky reaction that Laurel cancelled the piano lesson and took Elizabeth and her just-younger brother Shawn to a therapist the next day. A flood of sickening revelations followed: of "parties" where Laurel's grandchildren, including infants, were required to perform or endure sex acts, were given treats for not crying, and were terrorized into silence by the slaughter of a kitten. At some of these parties, Clint danced wearing only the tops of his temple garments and had intercourse with his mother. Another regular male participant was the other counselor in the bishopric in which Clint served. This second man's wife, the daughter of an apostle, ran the video camera. Many men who were strangers to the children also participated. The children's revelations were only the beginning. Also among Clint's victims were the children of Laurel's other married daughters and son, and her two youngest daughters, Jeanne and Jasmine. At one point, Laurel and Duncan count up thirty victims that they know of from personal knowledge. They give up guessing how many more there might be, including Clint's two stepdaughters by his second marriage and the two children he has fathered in that marriage. And he seemed untouchable. The police aborted their investigation, suspiciously soon after they found out that an apostle's son-in-law was involved, even though Duncan is from an old Church family. A lengthy list of bishops and stake presidents, including Clint's current Church leaders, promises to investigate, to take action, only to withdraw their interest and never return phone calls. Clint's bishop even paid his rent from fast offering funds. After confessing and apologizing to his children, Clint recants, once he figures out that he will not be prosecuted. He even sues for custody of the children. This litany of institutional failures completes the motive for murder. Innocent and on-going victims are revictimized by institutional inaction until an individual, Laurel Greer, takes action to restore justice. But this formula is only the beginning. The interior action of the novel is a moral education, first in a monologue as Laurel drives south to Las Vegas where she meets Duncan and sends her car back to Salt Lake City with daughter Jeanne, then in a dialogue as she and Duncan continue on to their condo in Palm Springs. In dense, richly allusive prose (Laurel quotes Yeates and Star Trek, T.S. Eliot and Wuthering Heights, plus dozens of others), Marion Smith explores the complexities of the human tragedy of child sexual abuse. Laurel's sickening hatred of Clint is coupled with her involuntary compassion for the misfit boy being raised and trained by his incestuous mother. Her passion for her children and her eagerness to embrace the stability and solidity of the whole of Duncan's Mormon heritage, given her own partially active family's dysfunctionality, lead directly to her bitter disillusionment as she perceives that this very Mormonness, rather than providing protection, made her children and grandchildren more vulnerable to sexual abuse. It also leads directly to doubts about God. Duncan's journey is parallel but not identical. He communicates the rage of a man whose entire life has been an effort to protect and provide for his family. His trust in the church that had been his whole life shatters into bitter shards, but he cannot give up his allegiance, even when his faith is gone. As a result, his peculiar crucifixion is his bone-deep conviction that he has put his soul in jeopardy by yielding to Laurel's enraged determination that she must kill Clint; by teaching her how to use the gun and working out the plan, he becomes an accessory to murder. The novel reveals the stresses placed on a marriage by the discovery of child sexual abuse -- another manifestation that the ripples of abuse never end. As they drive through the night, deeper into an uncertain future, they return repeatedly to the anguish of their past. This novel goes far beyond the simple formula of frontier justice, where a right-thinking vigilante removes a loathsome danger to the community. Conspicuous by its absence from the intense discussions and images is any reference to righteous Nephi standing over drunken Laban and hearing the Spirit command that the slaying. Instead, the murderers whose names come to Laurel's mind are Raskolnikov and his unmotivated, almost experimental, murder of a helpless old woman, Lady Macbeth violating her fealty to a sleeping king, and Medea drawing the blade across the throats of her own children. These images provide a deeply ambiguous answer to the question of justice worked out in this novel. If this were a vigilante novel, then the happy ending would be that Laurel gets away with her murder and the world is well rid of another pedophile. Instead, Laurel makes a final decision and takes a final action in the novel's conclusion that redresses the scales of an impossibly complex justice. (to be continued...) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jana bouck remy" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Marion SMITH, _Riptide_ (Review pt. 2) Date: 11 Oct 2000 08:35:17 -0500 (continued from previous post) In my opinion, however, Marion Smith's chief contribution is to draw into the reader's consciousness an understanding of the horror of child sexual abuse. This statement may seem both over-obvious and even faintly ludicrous. Is there anyone, except for pedophiles and the truly uneducated, who doesn't already believe that child sexual abuse is horrible? Haven't the experiences of abuse survivors already plowed that dark and painful ground thoroughly? I don't think so. At three points in the novel, lists appear: (1) a list of victims, (2) a list of the types of abuse the children were forced to endure (this is what the children told their therapist that Clint had done to them: "Cunnilingus, object rape, enforced fellatio, digital penetration of anus and vagina, sodomy, fondling of breasts and genitals, the making and showing of pornographic films, intercourse and other sexual acts with adults including his mother, which he forced the children to witness"; (p. 60), and (3) a catalog of abuse symptoms ("panic attacks, nightmare, sexual dysfunction, dissociation, amnesia, flashbacks, rage, terror, depression, . . . body memories like numbness or terrible pain, . .. eating disorders," p. 158). The clinical language and the sheer pile-up of multi-syllabic nouns are ultimately numbing. Survivors' stories never fail to shock and galvanize sympathy that connects listener and speaker; but that completely appropriate response of sympathy is by its very nature outwardly directed. It separates the sympathizer from the object of sympathy, and the space in between is a sometimes too-comfortable distance. What Marion Smith has done throughout Riptide is to create a series of images, dreams, and events that erase that distance, creating an experience with the emotional reality of abuse that will, I believe, leave no sensitive reader unchanged. I counted a score of such distance-erasing images, beginning with the scene that gives the novel its title. Clint and little Jasmine are playing in the waves when they are caught by the riptide. Duncan immediately tries to rescue Jasmine, but the tide "would sweep them out again like straws." Tina, another daughter, is the strongest swimmer and understands how to work with, not against, the riptide. Laurel gives her permission to go out and save her father and sister. They all survive, including Clint, but Laurel wonders whether her son and daughter, parents of more of Clint's victims, would have "sacrifice[d Duncan and Jasmine] . . . to . . . let Clint drown and their children be saved from him." Meanwhile, she is haunted by the image of "Clint luring everyone into the riptide" (173). Some of the images are those reported by the children: Jasmine dreams of a blender in which her loved ones are "ground together by whirling . . . . blades" (13). In another one, a shark circles her and Jeanne underwater, its "huge red penis, dripping in the ocean water" (13). Jeanne pumps up on the cabin swing, flying high in the air, when the chain snaps on one side. Laurel's daughter Katherine, who had been married to Clint, stands before the wooden clock Clint had brought back from his mission, pushing the hands "around and around the face." It is an image of her own terrible desire that enough minutes will pass to signal that they have survived (33). This same daughter terrifies Duncan when he finds her methodically smashing every piece of her Royal Copenhagen china on the tiled floor of her kitchen. He is sure she is crazy. Laurel understands that it is normal to be crazy. Some of the images are Laurel's nightmares. She dreams of a tornado funnel sweeping toward them, its winds so powerful that they can't yank up the door that would lead them into the safety of the storm cellar; the wind catches the baby's body and batters it against the door "like a ball on a yo-yo string, breaking" the fragile bones (30). She dreams of a cozy miniature living room inside a decorated Easter egg where her family is "safe"; then she picks up the egg and shakes it. She is simultaneously tiny, inside the egg, crashing into the furniture with her bruised and bleeding family, and outside, doing the shaking (160). She is a moth, blending into the soft dust, a pile "of gray cinder-block bricks placed on top of me--neatly stacked--no one know that I am here." She can still breathe, barely, but the bricks keep stacking higher, crushing her (163). Her best-beloved doll falls out of the car window; her father refuses to go back for it (51). She dreams of her family on strings being dipped into a volcano and being "pulled out twisted and grotesque with lava crusting on us" (57). She repeatedly thinks of rocks --"black, deformed, lava, habitable only to black crags and bare bleeding feet" or "smooth stream-rounded pebbles, wet and sensuous, their curvings indifferent to human fingers" (118). On a family trip, a berserk Moroccan had run through the ferry to Tangier "stabbing strangers" until a tourist "hit him on the head with a bottle" while Laurel searched desperately for four-year-old Jasmine who had gotten separated from the family (83). One night, she hears a young elk, trapped in their metal gate in the deep snow. It screams and screams "like Cathy at the window" in Wuthering Heights, "trying to come in . . . a child who must scream alone in the cold night" (98). In a game of musical chairs at a birthday party, "a giant male foot in a brown polished shoe" appears above the children, then smashes down, grinding the children and the chair splinters into the carpet "while Tina goes on trying to announce who's won and I bring in the hot dogs and the red Jell-O and the potato chips" (111-12). A hangman's noose dangles from the branches of a dead tree, enlarging itself until Laurel can seat herself in it as if it were a child's swing (115). Clint is a huge "black crab" crawling after the "miniature" family, his enormous claws picking up the child that Laurel had "forgotten to hide" (159-60). A little boy is sinking in quicksand and can't hold on to the stick Laurel reaches to him from the side (160). A granddaughter swings out over a cliff edge, then dives straight into the "dark pool" below. She doesn't come up. "None of us could jump to her. We stared at the water and couldn't move" (160). And there are more. These images recreate the emotional reality of sexual abuse--the helplessness, the insanity, the nightmarishness, the meaninglessness, and above all, the terrible, unending pain. I could not read them unmoved, unchanged. I could not read them with only admiration for Marion Smith's technical facility and her skill with language. Reading them is an experience with the riptide of sexual abuse. Smith was not well-served by the publisher's production. Although the novel's action is dated precisely to 1994, seven years after the discovery of the abuse, the cover, in muddy shades of greenish-yellow and gray, misleadingly shows a woman with a short waved hair style from the early 1950s, flanked by young daughters with bangs and pageboys from the same period. Ellipses are shown unspaced, making eye-jerking clots on the page. M-dashes have been rendered as N-dashes, making it virtually impossible not to read some as hyphens. Typographical errors abound: both "MacBeth" and "Macbeth" (correct), "grey" (British spelling), "Mommie/Mommy," and "their's." But these defects in presentation should not be allowed to detract from this remarkable journey in moral education and in the emotional realities of sexual abuse that Riptide provides. In an image pivotal to the action of the novel, Laurel recalls lying on the edge of the Grand Canyon at dawn when she was fifteen, feeling the world turning under her, unable to tell where the sandstone stops and her cheek begins. "Perhaps lying there alone at dawn was the best single moment of my life," she thinks. To get there she had followed a path through the Kaibab forest: Over and over during the past seven years, I watch myself walk that path. . . . There's no hurry, but I have to keep moving. I go to the rim and its purple shadows. There's no fear or pain in that. I don't want to die, but perhaps there'll be no choice. One step and I'll be part of the shadow. It feels good to have that option. It's my biggest comfort. I must go to the very edge and look down and then decide. No one can come near me there, alone. Two German tourists disappeared from that path this summer. I envy them. Over and over this scene is my escape. It's beautiful and awesome and obsessive. Sometimes it's irresisble. I know I can't turn around on the path to the canyon. I can stop on the edge but not turn around. I try hard to think if there are other choices. I concentrate while I look at the ever-changing light and shadow. (45) Marion Smith puts the reader on that path with Laurel Greer. The precipice is not just the hunger for oblivion and surcease from pain; it is also the decision of each reader whether to accept his or her own culpability in a world where innocence is violated in terrible ways. We can plunge over into the obliterating answers of denial or we can "stop on the edge" where rescue can occur, but we "can't turn around on the path." [Lavina Fielding Anderson] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 10 Oct 2000 16:22:30 -0600 Eric vs. Eric on the avant-gard Boy, do we disagree here. =20 >This is a judgment we get to make because we are the ones >spending time = and=20 >money viewing these works of art. And anything that we consider >to have = been=20 >a waste of our time and money -- something that did not benefit >us in = any way -- is something we can validly consider "not worth >doing." And that seems to me to discount the possibility that that work of art = might be the very thing we most needed at that point in our lives, had we = only been open to it. A waste of our time and money? Maybe so, maybe we = didn't get much out of that particular work, but surely others did. =20 I've noticed a curious phenomenon in my time. When I go to see something = done by a friend, no matter how poorly executed it was, I always get = something valuable from the experience. After all, I'm motivated to go = into that experience open and ready to embrace whatever it has to offer. = I know I'll have to respond honestly to its creator afterwards, and I want = to be able to respond positively. And so I make a particular effort, not = to look for the good in it necessarily, but to look at what it's accomplish= ing, what choices the artist made, and what those choices might teach me. = And I'm very rarely--effectively never--disappointed. Whereas those works = of art I don't much like tend to be those I was dragged to against my = will, and so am inclined to grouse about. =20 Now Eric is saying that the 'is it worth doing question' is solely in the = mind of the art consumer. I actually agree with him there; I think it is = a subjective question. I'd like to suggest, however, that that very = subjectivity should encourage us to open ourselves to the experience of = art. Surely we would agree that some art works require more of us than = others. Some works of art, particularly avant-garde works, require that = we think about them, that we seriously open ourselves to the possibilities = they offer us. And I don't think this is a bad thing. We may not always, = or even often be in the mood for Proust. But that doesn't suggest that = Proust shouldn't have written. I would merely add that the answer to the = 'is it worth doing' question is always yes, provided that we prepare = ourselves and open ourselves to the art work in question. Which in turn = makes it a less than valuable question. >Let's say a playwright wrote a play that was SUPPOSED to be >boring.=20 This has never happened in the history of the universe, but okay, let's be = hypothetical. >His=20 >whole point was to write something experimental and weird and >off-putting= =20 >and strange and dull But these words don't at all mean the same thing. In fact, I'd say that = they're peculiarly non-synonymous. Art works that are intentionally weird = are rarely, in my experience, dull. Works that are strange aren't = necessarily offputting. =20 This passage suggest to me something that I doubt very much Eric intended: = a hostility to experimentation and avant-garde explorations of subjective = experience. And yet I think my art form, the theatre, has been greatly = enriched by examining other epistemologies and ontologies, by attempts to = treat sign systems as mutable. In fact, the history of theatre is the = history of tiny theatre companies, struggling for existence, doing shows = for audiences of a few hundred in ramshackle spaces--and simultaneously = changing the art form forever. I think of Paul Fort, at 17, starting the = Theatre d'Art and doing productions that made the critics of Paris howl = with outraged laughter. And yet Fort's experiments in form and style were = the first stirrings of the movement we now call absurdism. I think of = Andre Antoine, gas clerk by day, theatre director at night, doing Ibsen's = Ghosts in a rented space with a few other actors he called, grandly, the = Theatre Libre. And by the time he was fifty, every major actor in France = was the product of his new methods of stagecraft. I can't imagine what = we'd do without the lifeblood of any art form, the experimenters, those on = the edge without whom the entire form would wither and die. =20 >something that would not be "crowd-pleasing" in any=20 >sense of the term, something that would have audiences >straining to = find=20 >some meaning, but that simply had no meaning whatsoever.=20 Surely an honest attempt to uncover the complex of meanings found in any = art work is among the main pleasures of an aesthetic life. And how can we = even suggest an art work with 'no meaning whatsoever?' Two word response: = Not Possible. All works of art always convey meaning, lots of meanings, = in fact. I know of no exceptions whatever. >(I believe some=20 >playwrights HAVE done this, but I'm not going to tell you which >plays,=20= >because it will just make people angry.)=20 And why? Because you'll find that your list of meaningless and dull = playwrights will correspond exactly with other people's list of deeply = meaningful and profound playwrights. And those people are likely to get = angry precisely because you're discounting their most fervently held = testimonies about the value of art in their lives. That could get anyone = riled. =20 >A production of such a play might=20 >live up to everything the playwright intended and thus be a >"good"=20 >production. But I would insist that, no matter how well done it >was, = it=20 >simply WASN'T WORTH DOING. And so we'd give it a failing grade, and accomplish nothing but damaging = our own critical reputations. And damaging the careers of those artists = without whom we cannot survive. Boy, do I disagree with this. We can, if we wish to, simply dismiss out = of hand the avant-gard artists of our time. But why? What would be our = loss, if we were to somehow transport all those performance artists and = absurdists and radical feminists and ontological/hysterical experimenters = and Brechtian and Artaudian directors and troublemaking playwrights off to = some enchanted isle, where clocks melt and piano keys have human heads, = and Didi and Gogo endlessly wait for Godot? What a tragedy that would be, = too. =20 I've said this before, but to me, the gospel requires more of us. = "Virtuous, lovely, of good report and praiseworthy" aren't just passive = terms. Those terms require a great deal of us. Those terms suggest, to = me at least, that we open ourselves up to the hard task of attending to = art. We need to think about what we've seen, ask tough questions of = ourselves. And that's not just in response to Schoenberg or Magritte or = Ionesco. I think we need to engage as completely and intelligently with a = sit-com, or with a John Grisham novel. And when we've done that, and come = to realize that this work is only possibly virtuous and debatably lovely = and that other work is of at least occasional good report and, perhaps not = completely praiseworthy, what then? Except to listen intently to the = testimonies of others, and see if we can find what touched their hearts, = which we missed. =20 But without an avant-garde, the searching and thinking and praying won't = be possible. There will be nothing for us to search for, or think about. = And that would be the real tragedy. Let me also add this question. Is it possible for a work of art to be = boring? Doesn't boredom suggest a lack on our part, not on the part of = the work itself? =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Death of the Author (was: Moral Issues in Art) Date: 10 Oct 2000 16:11:44 PDT I appreciate Harlow's posts, too--and I'm not just doing that polite thing where you praise or thank someone after they praise or thank you. Your comments about textual criticism are valid--and I absolutely agree: there are many critical approaches that can be taken, and in some of them questions of authorial intent are key, even central. I have a tendency to approach a text with the intent to construct some meaning out of it, which meaning relies on the context in which the text exists. Often, though biographical information and other texts by the same author are available, and a part of that context, I see authorial intent as absent (perhaps "absented") from it. For example, Faulkner calls Jason Compson "the sanest Compson since before Culloden" (did I spell that last word right?). Anyone who has read The Sound and the Fury, however, may take issue with such a proclamation--even though it is made by the author. So, what is Faulkner's intent? Is he trying to portray Jason as sane? Is he trying to portray Jason as insane, then comment on the nature of sanity by calling him sane? Is he just making an off-the-cuff, somewhat grandiose statement that really shouldn't be brought to bear on estimations of Jason's sanity? Bottom line: I can't know Faulkner's intent here, so the meaning I construct cannot include intent in the context from which I construct it. The novel is part of the context, as is the comment about Jason's sanity, and the knowledge that Faulkner was influence heavily by Freud (thus Freud's texts are part of the context), and so on--but intent is nowhere to be found. I can make guesses at intent, I can make arguments for a particular intent, but these would be part of the meaning I am constructing--not part of the context from which I construct it. And, of course, the meaning I construct, in the form of a paper on Jason and sanity and The Sound and the Fury, will most likely become a part of the context from which future meanings are constructed... Anyway... Who else is attending RMMLA? I will be there too--I'm hoping to meet some of you. Harlow, I'll try to find your session. I'm chairing a session on "The American Novel into Film." Anyone else? Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harlow Clark Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:22:26 -0400 (EDT) I've been wanting to take this thread in a different direction because I use _didactic_ as both the name of a genre and as a negative judgment. I'll explore some of the hitherto unrevealed (sounds like a huckster) drawbacks of the didactic in another post--it bears somewhat on the paper I'm writing for rmmla. In this post I want to mention a word about art as testimony, in both the religions and legal senses, as something we know and see "and most assuredly believe." On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 Todd Petersen writes: > Harlow wrote: > > > The difference between advertising and the Pieta and Dada > > and "The Wasteland" and punk rock, which Todd gives as > > examples of didactic art is not simply a matter of degree. > > Of course all art teaches, but it doesn't follow that a > > work of art whose primary purpose is to make sure we get > > the message differs only in degree from a work of art that > > treats the audience as an equal who can choose to take the > > message or not. > > I'm not sure that art is ever indifferent to its own results. Suggesting that certain kinds of art allow us to choose whether to accept the message or not is not the same as saying the art is indifferent to its results. As testimony art could hardly be indifferent to whether people accept it. Testimony wants to be believed, but there's some suggestion in scripture that the best way to bear testimony is to allow people either to accept or reject it, even though a testimony wants to be accepted. Consider the angel's words to Alma: "If thou wilt of thyself be destroyed, seek no more to destroy the church of God." The angel wants Alma to repent and seek life, but part of the Book of Mormon's depth is that most people faced with such a stark choice--Laman and Lemuel, Noah, Coriantumr--choose destruction. Harlow S. Clark - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:08:15 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > Just because I may get a violent reaction from others does not mean I cannot > say what I say. Critics have dealt with whole populations disagreeing with > them for centuries. You don't want the opinion of the critic to limit the > artist, yet you expect the opinion of the artist to limit the critic. It > just doesn't work that way. Lots of interesting, intelligent points being made, but I have yet to hear anyone address my assertion that criticizing the artist's choice of subject matter is a form of censorship. I can't see how accepting such a practice can do anything but harm art. How can one possibly know in advance how an artist will handle a subject? This all started when Thom said another play about an imaginary lover is a waste of time in the LDS market, then listed some suggested topics that he thought were worthwhile. Yet when Eric described the play Natalie wrote, it sounded like she more than transcended the "trite" subject matter she chose. This to me is a perfect object lesson for why the critic shouldn't restrict topics in the first place. The critic is more than justified in anticipating that a work about a worn-out subject will be cliche-ridden. But he still has an obligation to give the work a chance. If, after the fact, the critic does indeed conclude that the work was tired and cliche-ridden, he has every right to say the author shouldn't have tackled the subject in the first place. But that's still a critique of "how," not "what." The next artist choosing the same worn-out subject may offer up a fresh approach that reinvigorates it. But not if we don't give him the leeway to do so. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Grant SPEED, Sculptor Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:45:00 -0700 Here is a profile of Grant Speed. I was going to post it earlier, but I'm afraid my editor butchered it. I say afraid because I haven't read it to confirm my fears. I started with a note about how gracious Speed is, something that's quite apparent if you spend any time with him. I can tell from the opening paragraph my editor put in that he thought the profile too personal. I strive not to write in first person for the paper, though I did in the original version. I've appended the original version to the end. New Utah Newspaper Pleasant Grove Review, Lindon Edition September 13, 2000 Volume 22 No. 37 Cowboy Sculptor: Lindon man created larger-than-life statue of mascot for Texas Tech By Harlow Clark While his work area at the Metal Letters foundry in Lehi may look cluttered, Lindon resident and sculptor Grant Speed knows exactly where each piece should go. Parts of the statue he is working on, a rider on horseback, are scattered all over the floor. Here a pair of horse legs with steel rods in the center, there a cape, the body of a rider, the torso of a horse on its side, a worker up on top with a grinder. "Pretty grubby work around here," Speed says. A hydraulic jack stands inside the torso. Speed explains that there is always some shrinkage, and when you are welding the pieces you have to move things around and make adjustments. When the workers finish putting the pieces together, you won't be able to see where the welds are, he says, and notes how the worker is pounding some of the detail in the saddle along a weld. There is a lot of detail, including the rider's Lone Ranger mask. The rider is a character from someone's imagination, The Red Raider, and is the mascot of the Texas Tech Red Raiders, 'half bandito, half cowboy.' Speed says that his dealer in Dallas used to play football for Texas Tech, and when he heard the school was looking for a statue, suggested Speed's name, who is not unknown in Lubbock, where his Buddy Holly monument is in the center of town. Both statues are approximately life-and-a-quarter size, but Grant Speed is perhaps better known for smaller work. In another room he shows a woman's head, life-sized, maybe a bit smaller, eyes resolute, jaw set, hair blown back. "She's 'The Lone Defender,'" he says, explaining that on the Texas frontier women were often the ones who had to run the homestead, take care of and defend it, while their men were away. The head mounts onto a wooden base, and arranged around the neck is a vignette. The woman is riding a horse, among other horses, rifle across her arms. She will meet the challenge, whatever it is. The vignettes are a common theme in Speed's art, as is the dignity of people even in undignified situations. He shows another head, 'The Captive.' She looks Mexican or Indian. Her hair is also windblown, but it has been chopped off with a knife. Her captors did it to humiliate her, but they have not robbed her of her strength, and she knows it. Speed notes that his mother was one of these capable Texas women. His sculptures draw on the culture he grew in and from, the stories he grew up hearing. So how did a Texas boy come to Lindon? "After the Korean mess I had some G.I. bill coming and came out to BYU and married a Provo girl and we stayed." Speed does have a small foundry, but he says he doesn't use it. He set it up because there wasn't one locally until Neil Hadlock began his foundry about 20 years ago. The foundry has been a boon to his work. He has a studio at his house as well, but at 14 feet long 'The Red Raider' is too big for the studio, and he created the clay model for it at Metal Letters. At the open house the following week, the dashing Red Raider has a rich brownish patina, ferric nitrate, sprayed on from a household spray-bottle and heated with an acetylene torch, then sealed with a thin coat of wax. Is he worried about water collecting in the dish-shaped cape? Wind and sun will take care of that, Speed says. A bigger problem is water getting inside the statue, which is hollow. A solid casting that big would shrink too much to fit together, and weigh far too much. Some water will drain down the horse's leg and out through his hoof, but "bronze is a porous material to start with, so you can"t stop water from collecting inside." After the statue has been out in the weather for a while water will collect in the low points. They will be able to tell where by the green verdigris that forms and will drill an eighth of an inch hole or two to keep the statue drained. The next day people driving the freeway could see a Chevy Suburban pulling a trailer with a figure on horseback weighing about 2800 pounds wrapped in blue tarp, duct tape and plastic, with 2x8s under each stirrup and under the cape for support. The statue is about ten feet and half an inch to the tip of the raider's finger, Speed says, twelve feet with the trailer, low enough that he and Kevin Maag, who bought Metal Letters from Neil Hadlock ten years ago after working fifteen years for him, will not have to get a special permit. "That sure looks pretty, Grant," says Ross Hannant, one of the fabricators at the Metal Letters. "Well thank you. The boys worked themselves to death on it and I'm sure glad they did." +++++++++++++++++ The first thing you learn about Grant Speed is that he is very gracious. When a stranger calls for an interview in mid-July he says he is working madly to complete a statue he has to deliver to Lubbock Texas by the end of August. Call back in mid-August to find out when it will be ready to photograph. In mid-August I call one evening and he is out feeding the horses. He returns the call, inviting me to Metal Letters, the foundry in Lehi where the statue has been cast. A few days later at the foundry he greets me, and explains that he was helping his grandkids build a dog house and hurt his back. It is not a minor hurt, several times he has a spasm that looks like his legs will buckle, but he is full of things to tell about lost wax casting and how all the pieces are put together, and he tells them graciously. Parts of the statue, a rider on horseback, are scattered all over the floor. Here a pair of horse legs with steel rods in the center, there a cape, the body of a rider, the torso of a horse on its side, a worker up on top with a grinder. "Pretty grubby work around here," Speed says. A hydraulic jack stands inside the torso. Speed explains that there is always some shrinkage, and when you are welding the pieces you have to move things around and make adjustments. When the workers finish putting the pieces together, you won't be able to see where the welds are, he says, and notes how the worker is pounding some of the detail in the saddle along a weld. There is a lot of detail, including the rider's Lone Ranger mask. The rider is a character from someone's imagination, The Red Raider, mascot of the Texas Tech Red Raiders, "half bandito, half cowboy," horse agallop, cape flying. Speed's says that his dealer in Dallas used to play football for Texas Tech, and when he heard the school was looking for a statue, suggested Speed's name, who is not unknown in Lubbock, where his Buddy Holly monument is in the center of town. Both statues are approximately life-and-a-quarter size, but Grant Speed is perhaps better known for smaller work. In another room he shows a woman's head, life-sized, maybe a bit smaller, eyes resolute, jaw set, hair blown back. "She's ‘The Lone Defender,'" he says, explaining that on the Texas frontier women were often the ones who had to run the homestead, take care of it, defend it, while their men were away. The head mounts onto a wooden base, and arranged around the neck is a vignette. The woman is riding a horse, among other horses, rifle across her arms. She will meet the challenge, whatever it is. The vignettes are a common theme in Speed's art, as is the dignity of people even in undignified situations. He shows another head, "The Captive." She looks Mexican or Indian. Her hair is also windblown, but it has been chopped off with a knife. Her captors did it to humiliate her, but they have not robbed her of her strength, and she knows it. Speed notes that his mother was one of these capable Texas women. His sculptures draw on the culture he grew in and from, the stories he grew up hearing. So how did a Texas boy come to Lindon? "After the Korean mess I had some G. I. bill coming and came out to BYU and married a Provo girl and we stayed." As we tour the foundry I mention that I met him once before, almost 20 years ago when he and my father were doing some church-work at BYU, and he invited a group of writers to tour his house. Does he still have a small foundry? Yes, but he doesn't use it. He set it up because there wasn't one locally until Neil Hadlock began his foundry about 20 years ago. The foundry has been a boon to his work. He has a studio at his house as well, but at fourteen feet long ‘The Red Raider' is too big for the studio, and he created the clay model for it at Metal Letters. The statue should be ready the following Tuesday, with an openhouse. There are a lot of friends and neighbors interested in the statue. I bring my parents. Grant Speed's back is much better now, and the dashing Red Raider has a rich brownish patina, ferric nitrate, sprayed on from a household spray-bottle and heated with an acetylene torch, then sealed with a thin coat of wax. Is he worried about water collecting in the dish-shaped cape, my mother asks. Wind and sun will take care of that, Speed says. A bigger problem is water getting inside the statue, which is hollow. A solid casting that big would shrink too much to fit together, and weigh far too much. Some water will drain down the horse's leg and out through his hoof, but "bronze is a porous material to start with, so you can't stop water from collecting inside." After the statue has been out in the weather for a while water will collect in the low points. They will be able to tell where by the green verdigris that forms and will drill an eighth of an inch hole or two to keep the statue drained. The next day people driving the freeway will see a Chevy Suburban pulling a trailer with a figure on horseback weighing about 2800 pounds wrapped in blue tarp, duct tape and plastic, with 2x8s under each stirrup and under the cape for support. The statue is about ten feet, half inch to the tip of the raider's finger, Speed says, twelve foot with the trailer, low enough that he and Kevin Maag, who bought Metal Letters from Neil Hadlock ten years ago after working fifteen years for him, will not have to get a special permit. "That sure looks pretty, Grant," says Ross Hannant, one of the fabricators at the Metal Letters. "Well thank you. The boys worked themselves to death on it and I'm sure glad they did." ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN New Theater to Open at Washington DC Visitors Center: Kent Larsen Date: 11 Oct 2000 01:16:15 EDT Larsen 10Oct00 D1 [From Mormon-News] New Theater to Open at Washington DC Visitors Center WASHINGTON, DC -- The LDS Church's Washington DC Visitor's Center will debut its new theater on Saturday with a concert by the Southern Virginia College Chamber Choir. The theater, which has been under construction since its groundbreaking last Fall, will help the Visitors Center attract visitors year-round. The theater seats 544, and includes a large 70mm film screen, similar in size to the screen in the LDS Church's Legacy Theater in the Joseph Smith Memorial Building in Salt Lake City. The stage is also large enough to accommodate choirs and other large performing arts groups. And like the Salt Lake theater, this screen will show the LDS Church's film "Legacy," starting Monday, October 16th. Elder David Salisbury, Director of the Visitors Center, expressed some caution about the schedule because workmen aren't quite finished with the theater. But he is sure that it will be complete by its scheduled dedication on November 28th, by LDS Apostle Dallin H. Oaks. Because of limited seating, the dedication is by invitation only. That will make the theater ready for the Visitors Center's annual Christmas season events. Each year a foreign ambassador pulls the switch to light the hundreds of thousands of lights on the Temple grounds, starting the Visitors Center's Festival of Lights. The Center then hosts a different musical group each night. This year the groups will perform in the new theater. But while Elder Salisbury is grateful for the theater during the Christmas season, he is more grateful for what it will mean. "The Theater will bring more people to the Visitors Center and allow us to provide attractions apart from the Temple. In the past the draw has been the visual effect of the Temple. Now there will be a year round reason for people to come." >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 11 Oct 2000 17:44:15 GMT > >Eric vs. Eric on the avant-gard I didn't mean to suggest that avant-garde stuff is worthless. The hypothetical example I used was one that probably fits in that category, but I don't dismiss a priori all avant-garde stuff. I actually like quite a bit of it. Just wanted to clear that up, so that Eric Samuelsen and I can at least agree on ONE thing. :-) > > >This is a judgment we get to make because we are the ones >spending time >and > >money viewing these works of art. And anything that we consider >to have >been > >a waste of our time and money -- something that did not benefit >us in >any way -- is something we can validly consider "not worth >doing." > >And that seems to me to discount the possibility that that work of art >might be the very thing we most needed at that point in our lives, had we >only been open to it. A waste of our time and money? Maybe so, maybe we >didn't get much out of that particular work, but surely others did. Well, that's sort of my point about "was it worth doing?" being so subjective: What I consider to have been not worth doing, someone else might consider very worthwhile. That's why, as I said, I don't take this consideration into account much when I'm reviewing things. It would have to be something that I was certain a vast majority of my readers would agree with me on in terms of its non-worth-doing-ness -- but even then, I would temper it with something like, "Not for all tastes," or "This will be a hard-sell for the average theater-goer," etc., to allow for those who would find it worthwhile. In other words, it's a completely subjective thing that will get wildly different results from one person to the next. As viewers, I think we are completely entitled to make the judgment, because it's our time and our money. (If this means we don't want to challenge ourselves, that's our prerogative.) As professional critics, you're right, it's not something we can fairly bring in to it, unless we know our readers really well and think a huge majority will find it as not-worth-doing as we did. > >Let me also add this question. Is it possible for a work of art to be >boring? Doesn't boredom suggest a lack on our part, not on the part of the >work itself? > I agree with this in theory, but in practice I think that lets the artist get off too easy. I've seen far too many movies that were just thunderingly dull, where it was apparent the filmmakers hardly even cared about being entertaining. To say that it was my fault I didn't get anything out of it is pushing thing a bit, I think. Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 11 Oct 2000 14:18:30 -0600 on 10/10/00 4:22 PM, Eric R. Samuelsen at ersamuel@byugate.byu.edu wrote: > Let me also add this question. Is it possible for a work of art to be > boring? Doesn't boredom suggest a lack on our part, not on the part of the > work itself? I wonder. What if someone created a work of art and 99 of hundred who saw it said, when questioned, "That was totally boring." S. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Moral Issues in Art Date: 11 Oct 2000 12:04:03 -0700 I said in my last post that I wanted to talk about art as testimony and mention some limitations of the didactic approach. A couple of years ago (9-NOV-1999, RE: Exaggerated Experiences (part 2)) Benson Parkinson made a comment about how the Church has shifted to "a strong rhetorical stance" in its publications: "State what you know, simply and clearly, and bear testimony." This contrasts to an earlier policy of "us[ing] strawman arguments" and "criticiz[ing] other churches' teachings." (Anyone who went to seminary in the 70's will remember that, particularly in lessons about the great apostasy--and of course there's Tom Trails. I remember my seminary teacher telling us that the Navaho man who portrayed Tom's bishop in the filmstrips (filmstrips instead of videos, fancy that. I was watching _Man's Search for Happiness_ once--maybe in Charles Metten's film appreciation class, but that would have been before my mision, not after--and as the opening theme came on, dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-de, all the RMs ("I don't know what the phrase means" a non-member in Don Norton's Usage class once said, "but from the way it's used I gather it refers to an extremely horny young man") said "beep-beep") spoke perfect, very articulate English and was hurt and offended that the Church chose to portray the bishop as speaking broken English.)) Ok, if anyone still remembers the original point after that long group of parentheses (is there such thing as a parendissertation?), I'm going to suggest in my next post that part of my objection to the didactic is that it argues instead of testifying. I've already made that point in various ways in this thread and it wouldn't be worth repeating except that it has much wider implications than we've considered and I'd like to see those wider implications discussed, expecially since I'm exploring them somewhat in my RMMLA paper. I'm going to suggest that didacticism is the dominant rhetorical stance in literature and lit theory just now, has been for maybe 150 years, and that one effect of that stance is a feeling that we must protect ourselves from art. As a prelude here's a brief description of how at least one person experiences the need to protect himself against didactic messages. I mentioned on Sept 21 that advertising is a wholly didactic artform. Todd Petersen replied Tue, 26 Sept: > Though Harlow is convincing, I do not hold advertizing to be an art, > which is why I threw my advertizing portfolio into a dumpster > behind my apartment building in Seattle and began to rethink my life. It's too easy for me to agree, though given the recent threads on the legitimacy of genres, I'm not sure how to base the claim that advertising is not art except to say that the total aim of advertising is didactic, to teach us to consume. That implies, of course that true art does not have as its whole aim (the word _whole_ is crucial here) to teach us--a circular argument, defining as not art any work which uses the techniques and inspiration of art but seeks wholly to teach us. But my point about advertising is not whether it's art or not. My point is that we are surrounded by works that employ the rhetorical techniques of art for the sole purpose of teaching us to buy, buy, buy birdies (save the birdies--collect the whole set). More important, we recognize that many of these messages are lies, and that we have to protect ourselves against them. (This is what I thought about when Jason Steed said Wed, 27 Sep, that our culture "facilitates, even necessitates, a resistance to 'didacticism.'") This is not MLM, and if you click here you can see live, hot teenage sex, and you must be serious about earning a five figure income in the next 5 weeks, and this program practically sells itself, and if you don't pay us lots of money to tell you the secrets of submitting your website to a search engine you could get banned for life from some search engines, and if you send this letter on to just 5 more people with $1 and a note saying "Please add me to your list," which will mean the $1 is a purchase and will make your solicitation legal--not a despised chain letter (and way the buy, I have a cd with millions of proven e-mail addresses I can sell you so you can foist this not-a-chain letter off on everyone everyone else is mailing to too)--you will get $250,000 by the end of the month, and if you send this other chain letter MicroSquish and AOL--who have teamed up to test a new e-mail technology (never mind that they're busy suing each other all over cyber- and non-cyber space) will mysteriously know you've forwarded it to other people and send you a check for $250 for each person who forwards it, and $75 for each of those recipients who forwards it and I've checked this with a lawyer and he says it's legit and I got it from a friend who doesn't send me junk and the post office is going to start charging 5 cents for every e-mail, and "666 is really 999 turned upside down" and $9.99 is a darn good price for this, this, this England. Can I come up for breath, or do I have to tell you that if you order now Ed Snow will send you his beehive Jello mold with 666/999 inscribed on the bottom, and a package of green jello at no extra charge? Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:18:19 -0600 aml-mag@lists.xmission.com>From ersamuel@byugate.byu.edu Thu Oct 12 10:54:30 2000 Received: from [128.187.22.133] (helo=email1.byu.edu ident=SYSTEM) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13jlcj-0000SD-00 for aml-list@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:54:29 -0600 Received: from spitfire.byu.edu ("port 10668"@spitfire.byu.edu [128.187.22.178]) by EMAIL1.BYU.EDU (PMDF V6.0-24 #45325) with SMTP id <01JV8WQN11VY8ZF8VE@EMAIL1.BYU.EDU> for aml-list@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:52:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCSNet-Message_Server by spitfire.byu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:50:30 -0600 Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: aml-list I asked >>Let me also add this question. Is it possible for a work of art to = be=20 >>boring? Doesn't boredom suggest a lack on our part, not on the part of = the=20 >>work itself? > Eric responded >I agree with this in theory, but in practice I think that lets the = artist=20 >get off too easy. I've seen far too many movies that were just >thundering= ly=20 >dull, where it was apparent the filmmakers hardly even cared >about = being=20 >entertaining. To say that it was my fault I didn't get anything out >of = it is pushing thing a bit, I think. I can agree with part of this; I have certainly seen films and TV shows = and plays that I thought were dull. But what does it mean to say that the = makers of certain films never even tried to make an entertaining film? = I've seen films that tried to entertain me and didn't. But I've never = seen a film that didn't even try. It's just too hard. Making a film is so enormously difficult, requiring = dozens or hundreds of artists each putting in literally hundreds of hours = work apiece, that there's no way they didn't care about the film being = entertaining. I can't imagine it, anyway; to put it in economic terms, = absolutely nobody wants to make a film that won't make money. =20 I am just so hesitant to open THIS can of worms, but timorously and = fearfully, can I ask what it means for a work to be entertaining? I mean, = I think Waiting for Godot is the most entertaining play ever written. = I've seen it in production a dozen times at least, and I always get = something new out of it, and I think it's funny a lot of the time, and I = just think it's fabulous. And one of the more dubious pleasures of = watching Godot in performance is watching the rest of the audience, for = whom it patently was not entertaining, stream out of the theatre at = intermission like the place just caught fire. =20 Some possibilities: 'Entertaining' means it was funny. We laughed. Since this is measurable, = it's far and away the most objective; the more laughs recorded on our = laughometer, the more 'entertaining' we judge the work. Entertaining means it's viscerally rewarding. We felt a kinetic response; = our heartbeat increased, our palms became sweaty. =20 Again, this is measurable. =20 Entertaining means it kept the kids from whining about wanting more = popcorn. Crank up the whine-o-meter, and plot the movie on a graph. Entertaining means it's morally uplifting in a structural sense. Bad guys = got caught and punished and good guys ended up with the pretty girl. I've = got a Star Wars problem here, in that the bad guy ultimately goes to = heaven, but otherwise, this is measurable. =20 Entertaining means we are caught up emotionally in the lives of the = characters. A bit more subjective, but if you measure tears shed and = hankies shredded. . . . Entertaining means it was erotically engaging. =20 Entertaining means comfortingly familiar. My daughter turns seven this = week, and she wants a Scooby Doo party. She adores Scooby Doo. She = especially likes the episode where they investigate a haunted house/mansion= /hotel/ski resort, only it turns out it wasn't really haunted after all, = it was just a previous owner scaring people off. Ever see the episode of = Home Improvement where Tim makes a doofus of himself, is corrected by = Wilson the neighbor, and makes it up to Jill in the end? Ever see the I = Love Lucy where Lucy, against Ricky's advice, tries a new job and makes a = hash of it? Entertaining shows, all of 'em. Entertaining means horrifically bad, utterly inept, laughably idiotic. = Entertaining means an unbelievably bad movie, with two robots and a guy in = the corner mocking the film's ineptitude. Entertaining means a movie you = went to at a drive-in theatre with some of your high school friends = crammed into the trunk of your car, and you all sat on the hood or crammed = into the front seat and laughed and tried to make out (unsuccessfully) and = snuck up behind girls sitting with their friends on the grass and went = 'boo' and ate lots of terrible popcorn to, later digging it out of your = braces with a popsicle stick. Some of the best movie experiences of my = teenage years, let me tell you, were watching movies like Kidnapped Coed = and Hitchhike to Hell and The Creepy Thing That Wouldn't Die at the = Hoosier Drive-In. Very entertaining films.=20 Entertaining means it was intellectually engaging. It gave me, Joe = Audience, something to think about. Entertaining means it challenged deeply held beliefs, and caused me to = re-think previously held positions. Perhaps it offended me--that's an = emotional response. =20 Entertaining meant I had to pay very close attention, I had to think very = hard indeed, to figure the movie out. And maybe I didn't succeed; maybe = there's a central mystery in the text I still don't get. Maybe its a film = that moves very slowly, asking me to concentrate on the tiniest details = for some hint or clue as to what it all means and what it's all about. = Marvelously entertaining films, those; I've seen a number of them and = count them among the greatest films I've ever seen. So what's entertaining? All of the above? Yep. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:05:13 -0400 D. Michael wrote: >What's the difference between the critic saying author Q shouldn't >write about x,y, or z, or the former Soviet government saying author >Q shouldn't write about x, y, or z--except that the Soviet Union had >more power to enforce the opinion? What's the difference between D. Michael Martindale saying the critic shouldn't say what the author shouldn't write about or the former Soviet government saying the critic shouldn't say what the author shouldn't write about? It's not only a difference in the amount of power, but a fundamental difference in *type* of power. The critic's opinions & dictates only have as much force as their competition in the marketplace of ideas can bring -- generally, they have to survive on their own merits as judged by other contributors to and consumers of public discourse. An oppressive government's opinions & dictates have as much force as their guns and prisons can bring -- merits notwithstanding. >> Who's to say what the critic's business is or isn't? > >Me. I'm as intelligent as the next guy. Who's to say what the author's business is or isn't? The critic. He's as intelligent as the next guy. You sound an awful lot like the people you're denouncing. Eric D. Dixon "There is nothing less interesting than a fact unilluminated by a theory." -- Steven E. Landsburg - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: [AML] Didactic Literature (was: Moral Issues in Art) Date: 12 Oct 2000 12:04:44 -0700 -108,114-115,119-120,125-126,132-135 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Sender: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: aml-list I appreciate this discussion a lot, especially Todd Peterson's insistence (Wed, 06 Sept 2000) that "to call something didactic is actually to position oneself against it more than it is a claim about the work itself." Disagreeing with Todd has helped focus my thinking. Todd reasserted this in his 26 Sept reply to my 21 Sept post on advertising.=20 > I still think that to call art didactic comes, not from anything in=20 > the nature of the art itself, but from the viewer/reader.=20 My first reaction was, if didacticism isn't something inherent in the work, only comes from the reader, it's not possible to have satire. But of course, Todd didn't say didacticism isn't inherent in works of art (indeed he believes all art teaches). He said that criticizing a work of art for being didactic says more about us than about the work. I generally agree that our reaction to art says more about us than about the art work. That's the central idea in my RMMLA paper, that interpretation is always a choice. Art does not interpret itself or force us to interpret in a particular way.=20 Of course, my objection to didactic art is that it does attempt to force an interpretation, and in considering that objection it occurs to me that I use the term _didactic_ in two different ways, to describe art that takes an approach I don't like and to describe a genre. While working out my AML paper "Light and Delight" a few years ago it became clear to me that satire is didactic (it offers us, usually by implication, something better than what it is satirizing) and didactic writing is satirical (it tells us there is a better way to live than we are living now). Mormonism has a rich satiric tradition, going from Elouise Bell and Calvin Grondahl and Robert Kirby and Ed Snow back to Parley P. Pratt's "A Dialogue Between Joseph Smith and the Devil," (further back if you count the satiric portions in the Book of Mormon, particularly Alma's prayer on the Rameumptom (no, he wasn't the governor of Utah 30 years ago)).=20 You can build a solid literature on satire, but I suggested in that paper that satire finally has the same limitations as any other didactic approach. To suggest how solid a literature you can build on the satiric/didactic think about Lionel Trilling's "On the Teaching of Modern Literature" (in his 1965 book, _Beyond Culture_), perhaps the most significant lit crit essay in the last 50 years--probably not the most important or influential, but it signifies everything about how literature has been taught in American classrooms since modern literature emerged as an academic subject after WWII. Trilling pioneered modern literature as an academic subject, at students' repeated importuning. Reluctantly. You don't point a howitzer at your students without assessing how much damage you might do, Trilling says. =20 Actually the word he uses is describe. Trilling notes the discovery in our century that a literary work is a "structure of words," which seems obvious, but focuses attention onto the words and away from matters such as what an author wants the work to do. This makes modern literature easier to teach, because what it wants its readers to do is very personal. Part of modern literature's power comes from the way it asks, and asks=97no, demands=97answers to very personal questions like, are you happy? do you like your job? your family life? your marriage? are you saved or damned? But these are not the kinds of questions you ask the large groups sure to sign up for a modern literature course. Nor are they the kinds of things you wish to tell a large group of students.=20 A teacher can describe a structure of words in minute detail, say everything "that can be said about formal matters, about verse-patterns, metrics, prose conventions, irony, tension, etc." (9), and still not touch the soul of a literary structure. Students may learn a great deal about "verse-patterns, metrics, prose conventions, irony [and] tension," but little about the passion that informs a work of modern literature. And since "these structures were not pyramids or triumphal arches, they were manifestly contrived to be not static and commemorative but mobile and aggressive" (13), you can't describe them without talking about the damage they can do. And you can't just leave the howitzer there on the back wall. It has to be fired (as Chekhov said about the gun over the fireplace on a stage set) before the curtain comes down. The teacher "must confront the necessity of bearing personal testimony. He must use whatever authority he may possess to say whether or not a work is true, and if not, why not; and if so, why so. He can do this only at considerable cost to his privacy" (9). (Those 3 paragraphs are one long paragraph in my essay, "Lucid Dreaming," maybe the least dreamlike paragraph in the essay. It's one of my best, partly because I worked hard to give it a dreamlike narrative quality rather than the didactic/expository/pedantic quality you might expect in an essay on literary theory.) To paraphrase the paraphrase, Trilling's description of modern literature (roughly 1840-1950) means that modern lit's mode, its way of being, its=20 rhetorical stance, if you want, is satirical/didactic. It positions itself against or beyond its culture. This view of literature has dominated lit classrooms for close to a half century, I would think. (I remember it from my high school AP class 25 years ago, Trilling's book came out 10 years before that, and he had been teaching a while before writing it.) In other words, though writers like to complain about how the public mistrusts literature and art, the perception that art is dangerous has been fostered by writers themselves and by the critics, who laud the danger. So here's my main objection to didactic writing. People don't like being preached at, even in sermons. We'll take instruction in a sermon, but we prefer the instruction tied to a story. (I'll bet if most of the people on this list walked in to Deseret Book and saw a children's picture book called "The Walnut Tree" they would know immediately what it was about even if they remembered nothing else from the April 2000 general conference. We know what the book is about because we remember the story.) We resist being preached at or to, as we resist being made fun of--both are unequal relationships. This is the chief drawback I see for Mormon writers. If they write in the culture's didactic tradition (preaching) they risk not being able to take their work to the wider culture. If they write in the wider culture's didactic tradition (making fun of), they risk alienating their people. But there's a more serious problem. Because the satiric/didactic is the dominant trope for lit crit in our time, it's natural for an audience to interpret a work as an attack if it contains things that make the audience uncomfortable. Even if the author does not mean it as an attack. I think that's what happened with _The Giant Joshua_ and a bunch of other literary works. It's quite apparent Maurine Whipple has deep regard for the people she's writing about, but the people who read her words didn't see that regard, apparently thought it an attack. That reaction and the consequences that rippled out from it are tragic. I agree with Trilling and others about the tremendous energy in modern literature, contemporary lit, too. I have said before that I believe that energy came in the pentecost when Joseph Smith dedicated the Kirtland temple. Because I believe that I try to interpret literature outside the didactic/satiric tradition, and to write outside that tradition--though I have a fairly satiric bent. I have more to say, but it will have to wait till after RMMLA. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:36:43 -0400 D. Michael wrote: >Lots of interesting, intelligent points being made, but I have yet to >hear anyone address my assertion that criticizing the artist's choice of >subject matter is a form of censorship. If that's true (and I don't believe it is), then criticizing the critic's choice of judgments is also a form of censorship. Both artists and critics should be free to write about whatever they want and make whatever judgments they want to make. Then everyone else gets to criticize both the artists *and* the critics, as they see fit (yes, including you). You seem to be consistently inferring that critics simply shouldn't be *allowed* to say certain things, and implementing that idea is as blatant a form of censorship as exists -- although saying it is not. In any case, freedom of expression in criticism is just as valuable to a free society as freedom of expression in art (I'm tempted to say it's even more valuable, but it's just a temptation). Ideas can be harmful, but combatting bad ideas by forcing the speaker to shut up is more harmful still. Conflating persuasion and oppression is a pretty good way to bring about more of the latter. Eric D. Dixon "There is nothing less interesting than a fact unilluminated by a theory." -- Steven E. Landsburg - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 13 Oct 2000 01:31:37 -0600 "Eric D. Dixon" wrote: > You sound an awful lot like the people you're denouncing. I realize that. But I feel justified in doing so because, assertions to the contrary notwithstanding, I don't believe the critic is an artist. He may use artistic skills while expressing himself. But he is not a creator, he is a reactor. That alone makes all the difference. The creator must be free to talk about whatever he thinks is important to talk about. The critic is free only to react to how well the creator did--but not to insist the creator leave certain subjects alone. There are people who believe we shouldn't write about homosexuality, or promiscuous behavior, or drug use. There are people who believe we shouldn't write about any evil. How about those "critics" who claim only scripture and correlated publications should be read, and no other literature? Eric's fond of talking about slippery slopes, and I think this is one of them. If we allow the critic to say what an artist should and shouldn't talk about, where does it end? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 13 Oct 2000 01:51:52 -0600 "Eric D. Dixon" wrote: > In any case, freedom of expression in criticism is just as valuable to a > free society as freedom of expression in art (I'm tempted to say it's even > more valuable, but it's just a temptation). I still can't see it. The one form of criticism that no one should partake in is what a person should be able to talk about. That's what the First Amendment is all about. I can't help the fact that, in the process of protecting freedom of speech I am obliged to restrict one form of freedom of speech. It's an interesting paradox. Of course, as so many have pointed out, I shouldn't have the right to force my restriction on critics in any other way than by expressing my opinion. Does that resolve the paradox? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 13 Oct 2000 07:39:45 -0200 > I think the critic should be able to critique anything...But most of time the critic is an opportunist person trying to promove himself by criticizing hardly other people. The critic should have freedoom if he really be a critic.. I could ask: Who can be considered a critic? Who critique the critic? Renato Rigo Brazil - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 13 Oct 2000 09:37:25 -0600 I haven't really had much to say on this thread up to now. I probably = don't have much to say on it now. But there's an interesting phenomenon = I've noticed, and I thought I'd toss it out there, and see if anyone else = has noticed it too. I'm more likely to be upset, offended, bugged by didactic movies and plays = and novels that I agree with, than ones I don't agree with. This week, my wife and I got free tickets to attend a Hollywood premiere = of the new movie The Contender. Billed as a 'political thriller,' it's = about a female senator named Laine Hanson (played by Joan Allen), who is = nominated to become vice-president following the death of the incumbent, = and who is targeted by political enemies, who use lurid tales of a sex = scandal from her past to derail her nomination. She's a Democrat and a = liberal, and her Republican opponants are trying to use her sex life to = get rid of her. Is it barely possible that there are some Clinton = resonances here? Well. Point is. I'm a Democrat. I thought the impeachment proceedings = were appalling, and I agree with pretty much everything this film has to = say about sex and politics. I also agree with most of what Laine Hanson = stands for politically. And Laine Hanson is played by the great Joan = Allen. And the President is superbly played by the even greater Jeff = Bridges. And the bad guy is played by Gary Oldman at his scenery chewing = best. And my gosh there are some terrific actors all through it, = including Christian Slater as a real weenie Representative. So, here we = have a movie that is superbly acted by some of the best actors anywhere, = an exceedingly preachy movie, extremely didactic movie with a message = pretty much all of which I agree with, visually arresting, not even all = that badly written, given its agenda. I hated it. I loathed it, I despised it, I wanted to throw things at the screen. In = the final scene, when Jeff Bridges, as the President stood up and gave = this big speech, almost every syllable of which I agreed with, with = stirring music and flags waving and Joan Allen jogging through Arlington = National Cemetary (I mean, they didn't miss a beat), I did something I = never do. I booed the screen. Okay, so why is that? Legacy is a film that was made by the Church, about = my ancestors, and I agree with everything it stood for, and I think it's a = detestable movie. I cringe my way through the First Vision movie, I = writhe in agony through most Church films. I cannot read Gerald Lund, = because I want to keep my testimony, which would be shattered, I think, if = I had to read much more than I have. And yet I just get the giggles = (nothing more serious) at the embarrassingly sexist and racist Johnny = Lingo.=20 And now, the Contender. =20 Why is that? And am I alone here? Am I the only person contrary and = ornery enough to find movies that preach things I agree with persuasive = just the other way. =20 After I saw the Contender, I wanted to become a Republican. (Don't worry, = it didn't last long :-}) After seeing the First Vision, I wanted to = become a Methodist (or whatever that preacher guy Joseph didn't like was). = For me, didactic movies that preach things I agree with make me want to = take the opposite point of view more, not less, seriously. Here's why, I think: issues we care strongly about tend to be issues = we've studied carefully and know a lot about. This means, in turn, that we = know pretty well the ambiguities and inconsistencies and problems in our = own positions. Didactic films and plays and novels, in an effort to = persuade the unpersuaded, simplify the argument, remove those ambiguities, = melodramatize the events. And so, to someone who's studied things out, = didactic works present an embarrassingly one-sided, simpleminded perspectiv= e. And so I sit through something like The Contender, feeling like a = small minded, self-righteous twit for being a Democrat. And I put Gerald = Lund down (or more usually, heave the book across the room), thinking = those Missourians had a point, and maybe Haun's Mill wasn't such a bad = idea. Okay, so I'm a contrarian. Am I the only one out there? Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 13 Oct 2000 14:53:51 -0600 On Fri, Oct 13, 2000, D. Michael Martindale wrote: > I still can't see it. The one form of criticism that no one should > partake in is what a person should be able to talk about. That's what > the First Amendment is all about. I can't help the fact that, in the > process of protecting freedom of speech I am obliged to restrict one > form of freedom of speech. It's an interesting paradox. If you protect freedom of speech, you must protect all speech -- even the speech that condones the limitation of free speech. Protecting speech does not create a paradox. Saying that you have free speech with some restrictions creates the paradox. A critic should have the complete freedom to make any statements about art -- including about what subjects art should and should not include. The artist might vehemently disagree with the critic's proclamations, but the artist has the same freedom freedom as the critic and can continue to create art that suits the artist predilections for content. This thread seems to keep making some sort of tacit assumption that the words of a critic some how become an enforceable law. Critics and artists should have the same freedom. Critics can certainly create pressure on artists, but with freedom of speech, the artist can freely oblige or ignore the critic. -- Terry Jeffress - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 13 Oct 2000 14:54:52 -0700 I'm with you, Eric. I'm very much a contrarian. I got my testimony of the = gospel through an encounter with evil, not good. If I didn't have that = vivid understanding of what evil really is, there's no way I'd stay with = something so didactic and culturally insipid as Mormonism.=20 One of my biggest areas that causes me rebellion is our awful music. The = only time I sing hymns is to occasionally bellow something off-key or in = mock operatic mode really loud, making people look at me and my wife pinch = me.=20 I'm currenlty going through my missionary journals to write a memoir, and = I find that I was often a devil's advocate against the earnest, insipid = product we were shilling. I'm not necessarily calling it a character = strength--sometimes the only time I could relax and be happy was when I'd = finally driven an earnest, diligent companion crazy and he'd thrown up his = hands. I too won't read didactic Mormon literature because it makes me = heave and jeer. And I haven't seen any Mormon videos for a long time.=20 Even in the mainstream culture, I'm losing interest in Denzel Washington = and Robin Williams exactly because they are getting too didactic. = "Remember the Titans" sounds like a dreary bore, even if I believe in the = principles being taught (from what I've heard of them---racial integration = and harmony). I think one of the most misused terms in Mormonism is "worldly." We reject = much of what is culturally valuable in the world and replace it with our = own Mormon didactic goop because we somehow think we are above what the = world produces (much of it we--and all humans--ARE above, but a sizable = minority of it we aint). Thus, we have no Mormon Beatles or Updikes or = (fill in the blank with a superb worldly artist).=20 Culturally speaking, I'm in Mormonism but not of it. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bwillson01" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 13 Oct 2000 18:31:19 -0600 Hi All I'm just coming up for air. I probably shouldn't get involved here, but I get tired of just lurking. Every now and then I contribute my two cents. I have been half heartedly following this thread. so maybe this has been said already. I think what we have here is a problem with semantics. Some of you are talking about critiquing, and others are talking about critics. These are two different animals. The first reviews the work of a peer with the purpose of helping to improve the work. What is addressed is what is strong and weak about the writers, or artists work or presentation. The subject matter or content is not usually discussed in depth, although it may be questioned as far as meaning goes. The second is a professional who reviews art with regards to its redeeming social grace and can comment on whatever turns him on, or off. He can comment on structure, content, strength, weakness, or how he feels personally about the artist for that matter. Anything goes in this type of critical commentary. Both the artist and the critic have equal rights as far as the first amendment goes. Am I making any sense? Regards, Bill Willson "Keep your hand moving & your muse alive!" bwillson01@msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Robert Petersen Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 14 Oct 2000 00:29:11 -0500 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > But I feel justified in doing so because, assertions to > the contrary notwithstanding, I don't believe the critic is an artist. > He may use artistic skills while expressing himself. But he is not a > creator, he is a reactor. I don't think this is true at all. Artists don't make anything up. The transform, combine, join, reorganize, shape, color, re-sequence, etc., but they don't make, not from scratch. Art, like everything else, obeys the first law of thermodynamics: matter and energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed. One of the things that brought me into the church was the fact that this principle is taught as doctrine. People who claim that critics don't create because they're responding to something else seem to me to be overlooking some very important things: 1. Books are made out of other books (a line I stole from Cormac McCarthy's only interview) 2. Artists have influences, works and artists who influence them both consciously and unconsciously 3. Writers, more than most others, are subject to influences because they inherit the language in which they are working. 4. Milton was reacting to Spencer, who was reacting by Tasso, who was reacting to Dante and Vergil, who were reacting to Lucan, Ovid, and Homer. The Romantics were reacting. The Moderns were reacting. The postmoderns were and are reacting. It sounds to me like D. Michael does not like it when artists are told what they can and can't do, which is particularly applicable to an LDS list. There are clearly limits to what can and can't be done, and this comes from the brethren. This is the perennial struggle for faithful LDS writers. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 14 Oct 2000 01:10:09 -0600 Terry L Jeffress wrote: > This thread seems to keep making some sort of tacit assumption that > the words of a critic some how become an enforceable law. Critics and > artists should have the same freedom. Critics can certainly create > pressure on artists, but with freedom of speech, the artist can freely > oblige or ignore the critic. There are times when the words of the critic _do_ become enforceable law. We have experienced two such times in recent history: McCarthyism and political correctness. The former had the weight of the government behind it, the latter was more of an internal blacklisting among artists. In a perfect world, everyone would feel free to speak as they see fit. We don't live in a perfect world, and there are times when social pressure escalates into something that cannot be ignored. The artist does _not_ always have the luxury to ignore the critic. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 14 Oct 2000 09:37:32 -0200 > I think didatic art is originary from didatic bad teachers...Studying Literature isn=B4t enough to become a good artist...A good artist (writer, painter, composer, etc) depends more on his own experiences in life than his didatic studies. You should have been an artist during your life before starting studying formal art in a classroom...The classes aren=B4t able to create artists...That=B4s why we have didatic artists and didatic works that let us upset Renato Rigo Brazil renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 14 Oct 2000 19:13:51 -0600 >I'm more likely to be upset, offended, bugged by didactic movies and plays and novels that I agree with, than ones I don't agree with. >Well. Point is. I'm a Democrat. I thought the impeachment proceedings were appalling, and I agree with pretty much everything this film has to say about sex and politics. I also agree with most of what Laine Hanson stands for politically. And Laine Hanson is played by the great Joan Allen. And the President is superbly played by the even greater Jeff Bridges. And the bad guy is played by Gary Oldman at his scenery chewing best. And my gosh there are some terrific actors all through it, including Christian Slater as a real weenie Representative. So, here we have a movie that is superbly acted by some of the best actors anywhere, an exceedingly preachy movie, extremely didactic movie with a message pretty much all of which I agree with, visually arresting, not even all that badly written, given its agenda. >I hated it. > >I loathed it, I despised it, I wanted to throw things at the screen. In the final scene, when Jeff Bridges, as the President stood up and gave this big speech, almost every syllable of which I agreed with, with stirring music and flags waving and Joan Allen jogging through Arlington National Cemetary (I mean, they didn't miss a beat), I did something I never do. I booed the screen. I'm going to analyze Eric here--after all we critics can write write about anything;). I think the problem with _liberal_ didactism is that it is so self serving. The movie _American President_ for example, was a pre-emptive strike against critics of the president's sexual behavior and very self-serving. In early retrospect, it was prophetic. It today's retrospect, anybody could have written it. It was a just following the road signs. Now we have the same movie plot about a woman? Who's running for senate? But back to Eric. He dislikes the didatic about self because it is so self serving. I also felt the same about Legacy as he did, along the lines of _they are recreating the past in simple didactic terms. As Eric has spoken so eloquantly before, the past is facinating, but like the poet said, our memory turns the colors to grey, then black-and-white. So Johnny Lingo is great! Remember "Mahona--you ugly!" Great because it is a corn-ball cutesy story and everybody knows it. We have fun. But Eric throws Gerald Lund across the room because he has simplified the Mormon migration and left no room for self-inspection. Good guy--bad guys. Reminds me of the '97 sesquecentannial when we heard mostly about the Willie Handcart company and the sacrifices. Read: the pioneers died or had toes fall off and you should pay more fast offerings. It would have been nice to hear about the folks that a good time. The disagreements. The advice to stay in Nebraska for the winter, and the zealots who wanted to show off their commitment by going all the way and ended up in the top of the Rockies in four feet of snow. But let's touch a moment on morally consevative didatic literature. Maybe it doesn't provoke Eric, or myself, so much because we realize it's just people doing their jobs by scaring the evil out of us. Sometimes it may even work, but usually we are just bored by it. Nothing to get excited about. Like the next time we hear the latest tirade about music lyrics--whether by Tipper Gore, Church Leaders, or the NBA--Yes the Nat. Basketball Assoc. is concerned about Allen Iverson's rap CD. We are already bored by it--do we really need to read a book or watch a show about it. >Okay, so why is that? Legacy is a film that was made by the Church, about my ancestors, and I agree with everything it stood for, and I think it's a detestable movie. I cringe my way through the First Vision movie, I writhe in agony through most Church films. C'mon Eric, the First Vision was fun! Remember the "I believe" lady--she provided us a ready comeback in Semary class. And the little birdie as it crossed the sky in front of the young Joe and tried to tell him to avoid walking through three-feet tall grass covered in dew. Of course I never had to show it on my mission--except the time my companion brought home a homeless drunk and filled his belly full of instant mashed potatoes and told him they made a movie of his experience and made him watch it. >Okay, so I'm a contrarian. Am I the only one out there? Eric Samuelsen > Did you read my post on K. Merrill's comments a few months ago? Let's start a club. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 16 Oct 2000 11:25:42 -0600 on 10/13/00 11:29 PM, Todd Robert Petersen at peterst_osu@osu.net wrote: > It sounds to me like D. Michael does not like it when artists are told what > they can and can't do, which is particularly applicable to an LDS list. > There are clearly limits to what can and can't be done, and this comes from > the brethren. I've never seen a list. What do you mean? [MOD: I take this to mean, "This is an LDS e-mail list, where it's particularly appropriate to talk about this issue." Yes?] >This is the perennial struggle for faithful LDS writers. > -- > Todd Robert Petersen I agree that artists are told what to do and what not to do all the time by critics, paying clients (including--when they are a paying client--the church), the art-buying public at large, and most importantly by the spirit and the artist's own conscience. But I don't understand the phrase "there are clearly limits to what can and can't be done, and this comes from the brethren." What do you mean by this? Thanks, Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 16 Oct 2000 11:38:39 -0600 > I'm going to analyze Eric here--after all we critics can write write about > anything;). I think the problem with _liberal_ didactism is that it is so > self serving. All didacatism is self-serving, including liberal and conservative didactism. > The movie _American President_ for example, was a pre-emptive > strike against critics of the president's sexual behavior and very > self-serving. It was, was it? Did you read that in some magazine somewhere. Some Democrat film makers sitting around going, "Man, we've got to do something to save Bill's butt?" Or could it have been what it almost always is in Hollywood, an attempt to make a film that would make money based on an idea that was currently in the public's consciousness? > But let's touch a moment on morally consevative didatic literature. > Maybe it doesn't provoke Eric, or myself, so much because we realize it's > just people doing their jobs by scaring the evil out of us. I'm not as bothered about, say, Church didactism. They are not, after all, in the entertainment business. And they give you their product for free. But when an individual mimics Church didactism and then charges me money for it, I'm bothered immensely. If I want to be preached to, I'll go to church and get it for free. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: [AML] Mormon Music (was: Didactic Literature) Date: 16 Oct 2000 11:36:30 -0600 on 10/13/00 3:54 PM, Christopher Bigelow at ChrisB@enrich.com wrote: > > One of my biggest areas that causes me rebellion is our awful music. The > only time I sing hymns is to occasionally bellow something off-key or in > mock operatic mode really loud, making people look at me and my wife pinch > me. Chris, When you refer to hating the hymns as "our awful music," do you mean OUR awful hymns ("Come, Come Ye Saints," "High on a Mountain Top," and "The Spirit of God") or do you hate all awful hymns in general ("Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing," "Lead, Kindly Light," and "O Sacred Head Now Wounded")? :-) Or do you mean the half-hearted non-valiant way we generally sing them? Steve - - - - - skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 16 Oct 2000 12:06:14 -0600 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > > > It sounds to me like D. Michael does not like it when artists are told what > they can and can't do, which is particularly applicable to an LDS list. > There are clearly limits to what can and can't be done, and this comes from > the brethren. This is the perennial struggle for faithful LDS writers. > -- I don't know if Todd has fairly summarized D. Michael's position or not. D. Michael will have something to say about it, I'm very sure. But I would like to go at this idea of the Brethren as critics from just a little different POV. Some time back Todd, I think, or perhaps someone else, posed the question of whether our faith was a liability to our art. Some of us, including D. Michael, I think, answered enthusiastically that it was not. But this is not to say that faith doesn't, or shouldn't, impose limits on our art. Faith may be a great asset, and it is, but it also has a role to play in imposing limits. With this in mind, however, I don't think it is fair to say that the Brethren can set limits on our art. It is, rather, the gospel principles of love, charity, sacrifice, obedience, covenants, ordinances and consecration that fashion the limits. The Brethren may give suggestions, even warnings, about art or expression that offends the principles, and one would be wise to give heed to such warnings, but the principles have their origin elsewhere. The Brethren claim the role of guardians on the watchtowers. They are the Lord's appointed experts on how to interpret and live the gospel principles in today's church in today's society. They even have the duty as judges of Israel, in extreme cases, to protect the good name of the church and to assist apostates to repent, when there is an absolute failure to limit art or expression to within the bounds the Lord requires. It's nasty work, but somebody has to do it. Tom -- Tom Matkin www.matkin.com (Romans 12:21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 16 Oct 2000 20:10:02 -0200 > I=B4m with you... The world should be in Mormism (perfect world)(milleniun) but not of Mormism... Let=B4s "catch" everything in the world that can be considered good...because Every good thing should be inserted in Mormism... For finding good things in the world we have to know the world and let the world express its feelings by itself...Then, with our Gospel Filters we can choose the good things and throw out the bad ones... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br Brazil - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 11 Oct 2000 11:25:18 PDT >Lots of interesting, intelligent points being made, but I have yet to >hear anyone address my assertion that criticizing the artist's choice of >subject matter is a form of censorship. Back when we were discussing racism and prejudice, it was asserted that the difference between the two is that racism is "institutional"--that somehow laws or institutions were imposing prejudices, etc., etc., etc. I still don't agree with this (I think racism can be enacted by one person, and does not require laws or institutions)--however, I think such a distinction is entirely appropriate here. No, criticism is NOT a form of censorship. It is opinion. It is argument. It may be incredibly persuasive. But it is NOT censorship. Censorship, by definition, makes certain types/modes/forms of art impossible, or at least very very difficult, to produce and/or distribute--and it does this institutionally. Criticism, even if it puts forth an opinion that is sustained by entire populations (e.g. Christians, the Republican party, the NAACP, the Democratic party), is never a form of censorship unless its supporters seek to enact laws or other forms of limitation against the art in question. Let me put it this way: If you want to claim that criticizing subject matter is a form of censorship, then you have to allow that criticizing form is also a form of censorship. What argument is there for exempting one and not the other? In other words, your assertions lead to the conclusion that ALL criticism is a form of censorship. If saying the artist should not have written about homosexuality as a desirable lifestyle is a sort of censorship enacted by the critic, then saying the artist should not have included the fourth act, or should not have used humor during such a serious scene, is likewise a sort of censorship enacted by the critic. This is simply not the case. Criticism in no way limits the author's ability to make choices and produce. No matter what the critic says, the artist can still do otherwise. With censorship this is, by definition, not the case. >I can't see how accepting such a >practice can do anything but harm art. How can one possibly know in >advance how an artist will handle a subject? First of all, if criticism of a particular work of art is what we're talking about, then "knowing in advance" doesn't apply--the critic can say the subject matter shouldn't have been used because he/she can already see how it was "handled." Second, if we're talking about general criticism, then "how it will be handled" isn't a concern because the critic is presumably making the argument that a given subject matter isn't worthwhile or appropriate NO MATTER HOW it is handled. Third, there seems to be some confusion here. We're not arguing whether or not "such a practice" should be accepted. The fact is, such a practice already occurs and has occurred for centuries. Beginning with Aristotle's definitions of tragedy, we've had critics throughout the ages that have said "this is proper for this mode/genre of art, this is not"--and these decrees have often included judgements of appropriate and unappropriate subject matter. The argument began when you asserted that the critic shouldn't be able to do this--in effect, attempting to censor the censorer (to borrow your accusation)--and I've simply been arguing not whether this should be accepted, but that it is in fact the _nature_ of criticism itself. >This all started when Thom said another play about an imaginary lover is >a waste of time in the LDS market, then listed some suggested topics >that he thought were worthwhile. Yet when Eric described the play >Natalie wrote, it sounded like she more than transcended the "trite" >subject matter she chose. This to me is a perfect object lesson for why >the critic shouldn't restrict topics in the first place. Why? Why does the fact that an artist might be able to make a success out of something the critic says isn't worthwhile somehow necessitate the critic's silence? IMO, 'B' doesn't follow from 'A'. In fact, MANY MANY MANY great works of art might never have been created had there not been a critic somewhere saying 'X' should not be attempted. >The critic is more than justified in anticipating that a work about a >worn-out subject will be cliche-ridden. But he still has an obligation >to give the work a chance. If, after the fact, the critic does indeed >conclude that the work was tired and cliche-ridden, he has every right >to say the author shouldn't have tackled the subject in the first place. >But that's still a critique of "how," not "what." The next artist >choosing the same worn-out subject may offer up a fresh approach that >reinvigorates it. But not if we don't give him the leeway to do so. Perhaps a strong argument can be made for what obligations a critic should and shouldn't have--and this may be a matter of ethics in criticism. However, if the particular critic's philosophy of aesthetics stipulates that certain subjects are simply not appropriate or worthwhile, then I think a fairly strong argument can be made that that particular critic has no obligation whatsoever to give any work of art that addresses those subjects any "chance." The artist is not obligated to write about any subject, and the critic is likewise not obligated to read about it. What separates this act of criticism from censorship is the fact that the "leeway" the artist has to go ahead and create his/her art still exists. No freedom has been taken away by the critic who has his/her prejudices. And every critic has them. They're inherent in criticism, because criticism entails the making of value judgements, and any time we value one thing over another thing, we formulate prejudices against that which is de- or under-valued. You don't think this should happen in criticism? Okay. But that's YOUR value system and YOUR prejudice being voiced in a criticism of criticism. The New Yorker critic has his/her set, as does the AML critic, the Publisher's Weekly critic, the local newspaper critic, and the person who lives next door. Hand each of them a copy of the same novel, and you'll get different reactions. And I'm willing to bet that some of those reactions--maybe even all of them--will touch on issues related to subject matter. Jason Steed _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music (was: Didactic Literature) Date: 16 Oct 2000 16:28:39 -0700 My worst ones are the newer ones, especially "Because I Have Been Given = Much," "I Believe in Christ," "Families Can Be Together Forever" (maybe = that one's not technically a hymn). In my less rebellious moments, I admit = to being occasionally inspired by some earlier LDS ones---I remember = really digging "The Spirit of God" during the most converted, spiritual = months of my life, the four months prior to my mission (the missionary = experience soon squashed that little personal renaissance, believe me). = Maybe my problem is twofold: I listen to too much good rock music that = makes Church music seem like oatmeal, and I don't personally like = performing music---it literally makes me yawn to sing (can anyone explain = the physiology of that, or is it pyschosomatic?). Don't get me started on = Mormon pop like Afterglow, which I've never observed offering anything = original, provocative, or stimulating to my ear or mind. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 16 Oct 2000 17:07:43 -0600 I'm in awe guys. Here's a little tribute: D. Michael and T. Robert P. Are arguing repeatedly Seems they run round and round Make a point, then rebound. Just like Stock to Malone, what a Spree! Tom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 16 Oct 2000 17:16:33 -0700 Thom Duncan: <<>> This is a very good point. The Church corporation is in the religious = doctrine and policy business, and if they want to appropriate some = powerful cultural forms to strengthen that, such as music, theater, film, = and fiction, the culturati shouldn't begrudge them that. History is a more = sensitive matter, but the history of the Church is so closely entwined = with the doctrine and policies that it's not surprising the Church tries = to hold cultural and institutional sway over that arena too. <<>> I really agree with this too. I think we as a religious/ethnic group need = to take ownership of the culture, without worrying about how it dovetails = with the institutional programs and keeps our reputations clean enough to = become stake and Relief Society presidents. I really admire Richard = Dutcher for leading the cultural charge--he gives a fascinating interview = in the upcoming Irreantum about his impulses. Instead of Mormon artists = creating stuff they consciously or subconsciously think will be palatable--= or, on the other extreme, antagonistic--to Church administrators, we = should be creating stuff that reflects and deepens a real human, ethnic = culture rather than a thinly disguised propaganda program, for or = against.=20 It's too bad Deseret Book and its imitators dominate the LDS publishing = scene, which is why I think Mormon authors are going to have to do an end = run through national avenues to really get anywhere culturally, unless a = viable mainstream press arises that fills in the space between Signature = and Deseret. But because of the different economics and more recent = development of cinema, the corporate Church doesn't dominate in movies = like it does in publishing and Dutcher has found a way to exploit that in = a surprisingly successful way.=20 I'm conservative about leaving the doctrine and the policies with those in = authority, but culturally I am liberal and am vying for sweeping change. I = want to see the process accelerated of wrenching loose our fiction, = theater, music, and other art forms from the institutional Church = sensibilities that still dominate the production of Mormon art. The = cultural Mormon mainstream needs to be educated and even seduced by = artists they can trust but are provoked by, and then maybe we will move = closer to achieving a widespread Mormon culture in the sense of the = dictionary definition of "enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired = by intellectual and aesthetic training" rather than the propaganda culture = we currently mostly have. Take back the culture! has been going thru my head all weekend. Chris Bigelow =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 16 Oct 2000 19:39:14 -0400 I wrote: >> In any case, freedom of expression in criticism is just as valuable to a >> free society as freedom of expression in art (I'm tempted to say it's even >> more valuable, but it's just a temptation). D. Michael responded: >I still can't see it. The one form of criticism that no one should >partake in is what a person should be able to talk about. That's what >the First Amendment is all about. I can't help the fact that, in the >process of protecting freedom of speech I am obliged to restrict one >form of freedom of speech. It's an interesting paradox. Actually, not. In the process of protecting freedom of speech, the critic's speech does not need to be compromised. There would only be a conflict if the critic tried to codify his opinions so that they would have the force of law. Enacting laws isn't a form of discourse -- it's the final word. >Of course, as so many have pointed out, I shouldn't have the right to >force my restriction on critics in any other way than by expressing my >opinion. Does that resolve the paradox? Yep. Eric D. Dixon "There is nothing less interesting than a fact unilluminated by a theory." -- Steven E. Landsburg - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 16 Oct 2000 20:19:33 -0500 Steve asked: > But I don't understand the phrase "there are clearly limits to what can and > can't be done, and this comes from the brethren." What do you mean by > this? I'm going to be frank. What I mean is that no Mormon could make DEEP THROAT without some kind of repurcussion, or something like THE BAD LIEUTENANT with a missionary in the place of Harvey Keitel's cop. Also one couldn't really write something like Robert Coover's A PUBLIC BURNING with a general authority as the Nixon character. One check, I think, would be something like this: you die; you go to heaven; it's your turn to meet Christ; and when you get to the table, your book is lying there with a couple of slips of paper marking pages. How do you feel? I think this is going to happen. But back to the question. I think that when you get right down to it, we will all be very surprised at what is really spirit-conducive and what is not, which is where I think the brethren have established the "line." Of course, it's a little different for everyone, but we're not going to see a Yellow Silk anthology of Mormon erotica. (Who would want to? Page after page of BYU students with Hawaiian Punch on their lips blindfolding each other and driving up Provo Canyon.) Do I love LOLITA? Yes. Are there at least seven copies of it in the BYU library? Yes, last time I checked. If I wrote it, would I be invited to sing at the prophet's birthday party? No. So there are the limits, sort of. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 17 Oct 2000 07:50:18 -0600 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: >> It sounds to me like D. Michael does not like it when artists are told what >> they can and can't do, which is particularly applicable to an LDS list. >> There are clearly limits to what can and can't be done, and this comes from >> the brethren. > I wrote: > I've never seen a list. What do you mean? > The moderator wrote: > [MOD: I take this to mean, "This is an LDS e-mail list, where it's > particularly appropriate to talk about this issue." Yes?] Actually, I meant I'd never seen a list from the brethren of what can and can't be done artistically. Thanks for helping me clarify my question. S. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: [AML] _The Contender_ (movie review snippets) Date: 17 Oct 2000 07:54:54 -0600 Eric Samuelsen is not alone in noticing the not-so-well-hidden agenda of the film the Contender. Here are two snippets from a larger review on E!online (http://www.msnbc.com/news/476876.asp?bt=prgy), on who says the same thing Eric does, and another who didn't seem to mind. Political battles (of the Hollywood kind) aside, "The Contender" has been greeted with mixed reviews. The Boston Globe was particularly harsh on the script, saying the film is "so crudely written as to make its espousing of progressive principles seem crassly exploitative to the point of self-parody." Thumb Man Roger Ebert looks past the script complaints, noting that it's "one of those rare movies where you leave the theater having been surprised and entertained, and then start arguing." Thom Duncan *********************************************************** My new email address: thomduncan@prodigy.net *********************************************************** - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: [AML] Ron CARTER, _The Clearwater Union War_ (Review) Date: 16 Oct 2000 21:15:34 -0700 Review ====== Ron Carter, "The Clearwater Union War" 1999, Bookcraft, paperback, 235 pages, $10.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle As you know, Ron Carter is the author of the ongoing series titled "Prelude to Glory." I haven't read any of those volumes yet, but hope to do so soon. "The Clearwater Union War" documents the fictional encounter of big-time unionism with small-town America. Set during the Truman administration (and the Pres. himself makes several appearances in this book), a union boss (Big Ed) from Chicago sees a need to expand his union activities westward. He picks the town of Hollis, near the Clearwater River (along the border of Washington state and Idaho), and sends several of his henchmen to "convince" the folks they need to have a union. Truth is, there's only one industry in town, a small mom-and-pop meat packing company. Hardly a full-time employee to be found, they're really not ready to be unionized. In fact, the town is hostile to the idea, and band together to rid the area of these unionizers. What follows is a hilarious series of missteps and blunders. The Chicago gang is a barely-literate collection of thugs. With each move against the meat packing plant, they encounter resistance, mostly in the form of a monster of a man named Elbert who single-handedly holds off the union. "The Clearwater Union War" is filled with vivid, colorful characters. The federal mediator, who finally shows up to try to iron things out, is especially comic. A German native, his tendency to mispronounce words is presented nicely, sure to elicit a good chuckle. The residents of Hollis are a truly eccentric, small-town bunch, full of pride and willing to fight for their cause. The book does have several flaws. There are, in my opinion, too many characters. Given Carter's decision to name the thugs stereotypical Italian names (Gino, Vinnie, Franco, well, you get the idea) and his formulaic way of introducing each of his characters (a summation of physical characteristics followed by often-irrelevant details of the person's background), the characters become a bit difficult to keep straight. And the details sometimes get lost in the story. Several times a Protestant hymn titled "Shall We Gather At The River?" is called "We Shall Gather At The River." A minor slip, but something Carter could have easily checked. As I read, the one question that kept cropping up was, "Why is this a Mormon novel?" I twisted and turned every way to find something Mormon in the book, but couldn't. Perhaps others on list may have a better idea on this. Flaws aside, "The Clearwater Union War" is a story folks of every age can enjoy. --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Article Assignment Date: 17 Oct 2000 09:36:46 -0700 >From Kellene Adams, forwarded thru Chris Bigelow: A few months ago I appealed for some MLA help in writing a couple of articles for the Pioneer Magazine (A Sons of Utah Pioneers publication). Thank you for the response I received. We got a couple of great articles that will be appearing in the next issue of the Pioneer. I am now working on the winter issue of the magazine, which will come out the beginning of December. I am looking for an article about handmade pioneer Christmas gifts. The article doesn't need to be intensive or comprehensive. rather just a brief look at handmade Christmas gifts that may have been popular or maybe were a one-of-a-kind gift. Because the Pioneer pays so well (a couple of complimentary copies and a great clip) I am not looking for a great amount of research. Is anyone out there interested? If so, please e-mail me at kelleneadams@earthlink.net. Thank you so much for your help! - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Robert Petersen Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 17 Oct 2000 14:09:18 -0500 I'M the one in awe > D. Michael and T. Robert P. > Are arguing repeatedly > Seems they run round and round > Make a point, then rebound. > Just like Stock to Malone, what a Spree! Tom Makin is the Mormon Nipsy Russell. I never thought it would happen. -- T. Robert P. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 17 Oct 2000 12:20:47 -0700 (PDT) I have 3 reasons to respond to this thread: (i) I have nothing to add, (ii) I am not even qualified to add anything, and (iii) I haven't even been paying very close attention. What I want to know is, where can I find some good literary criticism of literary criticism that itself would constitute art? And is everything in the arts totally derivative? Here's some contrary evidence. I recently watched my 2 year old "invent" skipping, a form of dance (at least to someone dance-impaired like me). She just stumbled upon it, literally, while running across the kitchen one morning. And she clapped afterwards. Ed Snow ===== Among best sellers, Barnes & Noble ranks _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ in its top 100 (thousand, that is). Available now at 10% off http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD&mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 17 Oct 2000 13:27:06 -0600 > One check, I think, would be something like this: you die; you go to heaven; > it's your turn to meet Christ; and when you get to the table, your book is > lying there with a couple of slips of paper marking pages. How do you feel? Let me be clear. Had I made a BAD ELDER movie with Harvey Keitel, at it was an honest piece of human discovery, I personally would have no problem when facing the Lord. I believe he would look at my heart, know that motives were righteous, even if my subject matter was not. > But back to the question. I think that when you get right down to it, we > will all be very surprised at what is really spirit-conducive and what is > not, which is where I think the brethren have established the "line." IMO, it's purely a cultural line, and since the brethren own the line, the culture reflects what they think is apporpriate, not necessarily what IS appropriate. This can readily be seen by a simple comparison between the sex and violence scenes in scripture and what we are told is not appropriate to view in films. Lot commits incest with his two daughters, who seduce him by getting him drunk. Not a negative word is said against him in all of the Bible or any latter day scripture, for that matter. There are other stories in the Bible where great men and women commit heinous scenes and, in what passed for the exlplicit language of that day, it is re-told. > Do I love LOLITA? Yes. Are there at least seven copies of it in the BYU > library? Yes, last time I checked. If I wrote it, would I be invited to > sing at the prophet's birthday party? No. So, if one never wants to sing at the Prophet's birthday, then it would be all right to have written Lolita? In a sense, I agree with what you write. There are repercussions if you step over the lines. The Mormon artist has to ultimately ask him or herself, is the price of their art worth the repercussions? Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 17 Oct 2000 15:40:37 -0400 I have to chime in here and echo Chris' coolness toward church music. It= leaves me cold, cold. To my ear, pipe organs sound like so much mush, a= nd the much-lauded Mo-Tab choir is sterile wonder bread. When the green song books came out ten or so years ago, something about t= he new arrangements sounded wrong. A person somewhat knowledgeable in mu= sic told me that the range of notes played had been pared down, so the hy= mns might be played on those little portable electric pianos. Also the k= eys had been simplified--something about the number of sharps and flats h= ad been reduced so less skilled players would have less trouble. I took them at their word, and thought of that wonderful analogy Boyd K. = made about the restored gospel and the full 81 notes of the keyboard--tha= t some churches may have one or two keys and play them over and over, but= only the LDS church had access to the full range of the keyboard and oh,= what glorious music we could produce. Could, but don't anymore! Whenever I am forced to plod through Bruce R.'s "I Believe In Christ" (co= uld that have been included in the Green Monster for purely political rea= sons?) I'm reminded of a phrase from an old Paul Simon lyric: "...words = that stretch and tear to rhyme" I like Bruce's sentiment and don't doubt his sincerity, but the sheer clu= msiness of his pen bruises my spirit--I'm sensitive, ya'll. Luckily I can go home and play the Mississippi Mass Choir or the Dixie Hu= mmingbirds or the Persuasions or any number of good Gospel CDs, sing alon= g, and make that joyful noise. It's related to the odd loss of shout whe= never we do the Hosanna Shout. When did our passionate, joyful noises an= d shouts turn into complicated yawning? I used to think it was just me, but maybe it's just me and Chris. Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marsha Steed Subject: [AML] Re: Didactic Literature Date: 17 Oct 2000 13:13:53 -0700 Ah Chris, thank you for reminding me why I signed up for this list in the first place. It is possible to be "in Mormonism, but not of it"? How about for a woman? Now if there is meat for a good story, I'd bet my life's savings, if I had any. Don't let Lebute get this one, or you'll be next on the big screen m'friend. Then, even as I write this, a certain itch knaws at me to wonder if even in that, we aren't being blinded by our seeking to not be blind. Always things to ponder. Thanks. Marsha Steed - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 17 Oct 2000 16:53:47 EDT Chris hits on another reason I have procrastinated the telling of my story when he wrote, "It's too bad Deseret Book and its imitators dominate the LDS publishing scene, which is why I think Mormon authors are going to have to do an end run through national avenues to really get anywhere culturally, unless a viable mainstream press arises that fills in the space between Signature and Deseret." When Erin Eldridge (_Born That Way?_), whom I have met briefly, wrote her book, there was a lot of editorial input from the church office building, from all I've heard. It may be fine for her, but I could not feel right about sacrificing my honest beliefs for the sake of getting published. It would be required of me, if I tried to be published by Deseret Book, to appeal to the perceptions of leaders who have already formed opinions that may be contrary to my message. On the other end is Signature. I'm not sure I would do myself any favors (or my readers) by working with them. I don't mean that as any kind of indictment. I should clarify that I think Deseret Book would like my point of view just fine, internally, but I don't think they would publish it. My life and point of view wouldn't make very good propaganda for either end of the debate that currently rages. I suppose that is why I lean away from doing an autobiography, but how does one avoid being didactic in personal essay? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 17 Oct 2000 15:08:28 -0600 At the risk of being guilty of self-promotion, here'a a personal note about LDS Music. We just opened an innovative new LDS music site. It should create yet another avenue for Mormon music. We are called LDSMusic.WS and you can find us at http://ldsmusic.ws. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 [MOD: Promote away, so long as it's relevant to the List subject matter--which this certainly is.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 17 Oct 2000 18:12:51 EDT In a message dated 10/17/00 4:15:31 PM Central Daylight Time, markhata@delhi.edu writes: << I used to think it was just me, but maybe it's just me and Chris. Tony Markham >> It is you and Chris and me, and a lot of people. I tangled with the Music Committee a few months ago by letter. I got back a predictable all is well when we have hymns of the restoration letter. It is making sacrament music something to barely endure. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 17 Oct 2000 17:19:17 -0600 >On the other end is Signature. I'm not sure I would do myself > any favors (or my readers) by working with them. I don't mean that as any > kind of indictment. Then what is your concern? Signature published _Perculiar People_, a compendium of experiences that ran the gamut of same-sex experience. I personally think they could be the only LDS publishers that would do your work justice. > I should clarify that I think Deseret Book would like my point of view just > fine, internally, but I don't think they would publish it. Give Signature a try. > My life and point of view wouldn't make very good propaganda for either end > of the debate that currently rages. I suppose that is why I lean away from > doing an autobiography, but how does one avoid being didactic in personal > essay? Just tell the truth. Don't lie to your readers. And don't write in platitudes. One of the reasons _Born That Way?) left me cold, is I wasn't convinced I was hearing the whole story. She seemed to be holding back. Strike a common ground between Evergreen and Affirmation, and you should have it. Seriously, you need to write this book. Nowadays, too much of the rhetoric about homosexuality falls to two extremes. 1. If you're born gay, you must leave the Church to truly be yourself, or 2. You're not really born gay, and through prayer and fasting, you can overcome your desires. Your story is like a voice in the wilderness, speaking what you've discovered is true for you. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 17 Oct 2000 21:00:57 -0600 Rex wrote: I suppose that is why I lean away from doing an autobiography, but how does one avoid being didactic in personal essay? There's a big difference IMHO between someone who says, "Here's how it has been for me" and someone who says, "Here's how it should be for you." Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 18 Oct 2000 00:38:26 -0600 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > Take back the culture! has been going thru my head all weekend. Catchy. If I printed up bumper stickers--TAKE BACK THE CULTURE!--would anyone buy them? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 18 Oct 2000 07:03:44 -0200 Rex Goode asked > how does one avoid being didactic in personal essay? Have you ever read "The Portrait of the Artist as a young man? (James Joice=B4s Autobiography?) Renato Rigo Brazil - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 18 Oct 2000 07:21:07 -0200 > Are we running after our tail? What=B4s the conclusion about this discussion? We have one? I think the conclusion is this one: Both, critics and writers, are free to speak what they are thinking...Don=B4t we have democracy? The imposition isn=B4t from GOD... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br Brazil - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Upcoming Plays (Deseret News) Date: 18 Oct 2000 23:33:35 JST Here is an excerpt from a recent Deseret News notice on upcoming plays in Utah—a play about the pioneer era by the new Deseret Dramatics Society, a BYU play based on an African-American novel, and a UVSC production of Pirates of Penzance. The UVSC notice is interesting because it mentions that James Arrington is the chair of the new UVSC theater department. I hadn't heard that before, good for him. I wonder if we'll see more Mormon-themed drama there in the future? Andrew Hall ____ Desert News, Sunday, October 15, 2000 Curtains rising on a wide variety THE SOUND OF THEATRE, a dinner-theater production being mounted by the newly formed Deseret Dramatics Society, is scheduled for three consecutive weekends, Oct. 20-Nov. 4, in the Old Social Hall at This Is the Place Heritage Park. The production was originally written a number of years ago to commemorate the centennial of what was then the LDS Church's Mutual Improvement Association. Director Michael Jesse Bennett is rewriting the show to focus mainly on the 1869 time period. Dinner will be served downstairs at 6:30 p.m., followed by the presentation of the play upstairs in the Social Hall's theater. Tickets for the combined play and dinner are $15 per person. Performances are Fridays and Saturdays, Oct. 20-21, 27-28 and Nov. 3-4. The park is at 2601 E. Sunnyside Ave., across the street from Hogle Zoo. For reservations, call 582-1847. THE BLACKER THE BERRY, an adaptation of Wallace Therman's book of the same name, is being presented as a joint production of BYU's College of Humanities, the department of theater and media arts and the Utah Humanities Council. Admission to all performances is free of charge, including five in BYU's Nelke Experimental Theatre, three more at a Baptist Church in Salt Lake City and a final performance during the African American Literature and Culture Society conference at the Little America Hotel. The play, presented through live theater and film, is the story of a young black woman and her struggle to free herself from the debilitating effects of racism and to redefine her self-worth and creative potential. The 1929 novel, written in the creative heat of the Harlem Renaissance, has been adapted for the stage by Char Nelson (project coordinator) and BYU students Denise Cutliff and Kirsten Haskell. Archival photographs from Los Angeles, Harlem and Boise add to the historical detail of the story. The cast will include Doriena Lee, Natalie Hardy and community actors from the Calvary Baptist Church. Performances at BYU will be 8 p.m., Oct. 17-21, followed by performances on Oct. 23-25, also at 8 p.m., in the Baptist Church, 532 E. 700 South, Salt Lake City, and a special performance at noon on Oct. 27 as part of the conference at Little America. THE PIRATES OF PENZANCE, Gilbert & Sullivan's romantic adventure about Frederic, the "slave of duty" indentured to a Pirate King, will take on a "Star Wars" edge during a new production Oct. 19-30 at Utah Valley State College's Ragan Theatre. According to James Arrington, chair of UVSC's newly implemented department of theater and communication, all of the beloved Gilbert & Sullivan music is intact, but the show has been enhanced with sound effects and some "futuristic overlays," including the landing of a spaceship on stage. The cast, directed by D. Terry Petrie, includes Mark Stringham as Frederic, Brittany Wiscombe as Mabel, Jaelan Petrie as the Pirate King, Aaron DeJesus as Maj. Gen. Stanley and Courtney Young as Ruth. Performances are 7:30 p.m., Oct. 19-21, 23, 26-28 and 30, with one matinee at 2 p.m. on Saturday, Oct. 28. All seats are reserved. Tickets are $9 for adults and $5 for children, with discounted tickets for UVSC students. For reservations, call 222-8797. Patrons are cautioned that due to construction in the north parking lot, they should allow time for walking to the theater or taking the free tram. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 18 Oct 2000 09:58:19 -0500 Hm... In the interests of balance, I have to say that personally, I like a lot of our church music, particularly the hymns from the hymn book. Like Chris, I find some of the more recent ones musically insipid--but some of the older ones, too (Lord, dismiss us with thy blessing, the old gray goose is dead). But many of them are just fine. One of my current callings is Sacrament Meeting chorister (pardon me, that's ward music leader--as opposed to ward music chairman--anyway, I wave my hands around in front of Sacrament Meeting). I have a lot of fun pulling out hymns both old and new that are seldom sung, and inflicting them on my congregation. The bishopric likes to have an opening hymn that's familiar, but aside from that, they seem to think it's good for us to learn new hymns. I find that helps my attitude. Of course, I really like participatory music, and one of the things I really like about a song like "Abide with Me" is the chance to sing a fun tenor part (although with my current calling, I usually feel obliged to sing the melody). Still, I often find myself feeling the need to choose and lead a hymn I don't particularly care for, on the grounds that it fits the meeting theme and/or is one we haven't done for a while. Obviously there are several factors at work here in the different reactions of different people to church music. One is certainly the simple matter of taste--some people don't like hymn-type music, just as I don't particularly like most country/western. (Which made for an interesting experience last Sunday, as I attended a missionary open house where local musicians were singing hymns such as "To Nephi, Seer of Olden Times" in what I think, not being knowledgeable about such things, was a mock-bluegrass style--but anyway...). Another, I can't help but suspect, is overexposure. I do love hymns--and the _Messiah_--but I also like, and listen to, a wide range of other types of music, from Enya to Telemann to Crosby, Stills and Nash. (Okay, so maybe that's not such a wide range after all...) I have the good fortune not to live in a location where I encounter hymns every day of the week, in every part of my life. For that matter, I also don't value novelty as much as many people do, in any aspect of my life as an artistic consumer--I read and reread books, and I enjoy listening to the same pieces of music a number of times before I move on to something different. There's a great deal of artistic value that's applied to the new and different. But that's a relative thing, in two ways. First, as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, not everyone finds the same value in new things. Second, what constitutes "new and different" depends to a great degree on what one has previously encountered, which will be different for different people with different experiences. This leads to a broader point I've been thinking about for some time: that much of a critic's reaction to a particular piece of art inevitably relates to the environment in which that work of art appears. This applies both to ethical and to esthetic criticism (though, as I've argued before, I don't think you can really separate the two). On the ethical level, we tend to find artistic works suspect if they reinforce messages and attitudes that we already see firmly ensconced around us, largely unchallenged. On the esthetic level, we tend to find artistic works banal if they repeat the themes and methods of other artistic works we've already seen. Personally, I think that a work of art that is moral and positive in one environment, or even for one person, can be immoral and negative in another environment or for another person. And I think it's an important job of criticism to analyze and describe those environments, including not just the potential positive impact of a work of art but its potential negative impact, as well--independent of the intent of the artist. To some degree, every critic is a social critic, and a critic of the entire field of art. All of which seems to have gone rather far afield from the topic of hymns... Jonathan Langford speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] What Should the Critic Critique? Date: 18 Oct 2000 09:20:05 -0600 you die; you go to heaven; > it's your turn to meet Christ; and when you get to the table, your book = is > lying there with a couple of slips of paper marking pages. How do you feel? I well remember a good man, a former colleague of mine, who used to sit in = faculty meetings in the Theatre Dept. at the BY and, when we'd talk about = 'questionable' entertainments we were thinking of producing (real racy = stuff like The Importance of Being Earnest--they talk, quite openly, about = a cigarette case--and A Doll House--anti-family) would say "how would you = feel if the Savior were sitting in the front row opening night? How would = you feel about your involvement with that show." It was rhetorically = effective, until I realized (I'm very slow) that the Lord already is = sitting in the front row. I mean, it's not like we're sneaking our = artistic endeavors behind His back or something. =20 Am I a good father? I know I'll be judged as a father, and I know He's = watching my parenting, probably with some exasperation. And I know for a = fact that I've blown it from time to time. But I have tried as hard as I = can to be a good father to my children. Fingers crossed, hoping for some = mercy, I may be okay at the Day of Judgment. =20 Am I a good artist? Same answer. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 18 Oct 2000 09:39:18 -0600 Yo, count me in too. I love music--son of an opera singer, former = classical music radio personality type person. Personally, I feel a much = greater portion of the spirit while listening to classic Miles Davis, or = some of that amazing Bartok string music, or Lynyrd Skynyrd, or Keb Mo, or = Stravinsky, or Loretta Lynn, or Aretha Franklin, or the Who, than to most = Church product. Having said that, let me add a few dissenting opinions. The Tab Choir is = MUCH improved over the past two years. They're tighter, they're cleaner = in tone, and they're doing some of those terrific Mac Wilberg hymn = arrangements. (Anytime you hear the first verse sung by one section of = the choir, a cappella and in unison, and then layer after layer of = complexity added as the song progresses, that's the Mac Wilberg influence).= I was amazed this last conference at the difference in their sound. = I've even started listening to Spoken Word occasionally (and not only the = ones I wrote :-)) We do tend to diss LDS musical product. And at times that's appropriate. = But I'm sitting here in my office, and I see Marvin Payne's CD entitled = Spiritual. And the music on that CD is absolutely great, especially songs = like Were You There When The Angels Sang, and his astonishing arrangement = of Praise to the Lord. And I also see Murray Boren's tremendous CD = Partial View. Tough, edgy, difficult, uncompromisingly honest music, with = an integrity and power that are unsurpassed. And I've got the one and = only CD by the Ahrens Band. Folk pop music with a wonderful wit and = energy. Here's a sample Ahrens Band Lyric: My son be strong, and true, and steadfast Just like Mount Timpanogas. It's big, and tall, and it ain't going nowhere. Stayin' right there, won't give in to, peer pressure. My son don't ever lose your patience, As did young Mount St. Helens. She blew her top, now she's just a crater. =20 Got a hole in her head, she's ugly, she's a loser. My son you're weak, and small, and puny, Like the eensy weensy spider. But don't give in, always be persistent, Find a girlfriend, get married, be fruitful. In that order. I rest my case. =20 (They also wrote my all-time favorite love song: "I'm peanut butter and = you are jelly and we're so happy on our little piece of bread.") Okay, some Mormon music is pretty lousy. But for every crummy hymn, there = a dozen that are tremendous. There are some pretty talented bands doing = pretty great stuff. And we do have Gladys Knight. That has to count for = something. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Proverb Query Date: 18 Oct 2000 10:05:27 -0700 Does anyone know where the saying, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," comes from? I'm not positive it's "Greeks," but it will work for me only if it is. Is this Shakespeare, or from somewhere else? Anything you can tell me about it would be appreciated. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarieUtah@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 18 Oct 2000 13:56:30 EDT In a message dated 10/18/00 9:28:33 AM Mountain Daylight Time, jlangfor@pressenter.com writes: << Hm... In the interests of balance, I have to say that personally, I like a lot of our church music, particularly the hymns from the hymn book. Like Chris, I find some of the more recent ones musically insipid--but some of the older ones, too (Lord, dismiss us with thy blessing, the old gray goose is dead). But many of them are just fine. >> As a youngster I enjoyed some of the hymns more than others, just for the entertainment value. Children sometimes find other meanings in the lyrics, whether from innocence or just plain boredom during a long meeting. "The World Has Need of Willing Men" has the chorus "...put your shoulder to the wheel push alo-ong." When I was small I pictured pioneers with their noses to the grindstone...don't ask me why. My very favorite hymn was "How Firm a Foundation." I could find a lot to giggle about in that one. My grandma wore old-fashioned foundation garments she called a "corselette." She was an imposing woman and I could never hear "How firm a foundation ye saints of the Lord", without remembering the day Grandma needed Grandpa's and my help fastening the loops and ties. Not a pretty picture. ;-D But the killer was the chorus of that verse that goes "You who unto Jesus"...well, when Grandma and some of the other old ladies in the congregation started yodeling "YooHoooooo unto Jesus"...that started me and my little sisters in such an uncontrolled belly-busting fit of laughter that Mom had to take us out and Dad would threaten to "cut me a switch" after church. Does the song even have that chorus any more? The old song with the verse "In our lovely Deseret, where the saints of God have met, there's a multitude of children all around." made me think of Brigham Young chasing all his rowdy kids around while his wives were gathered together like broody hens gossiping. I wasn't a very reverent child. My biggest problem with most of the hymns we sing is that virtually every song hits a few high notes that only hound dogs can hear. There are some really great CDs that feature variations on some of the hymns. My favorite is "Enoch Train" which sounds like folk music. "Be Still My Soul" by Mark Geslison is another. They are beautiful and uplifting and are a fun way to discover the roots of some familiar tunes. Shirley Hatfield Highland, Utah - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Proverb Query Date: 18 Oct 2000 12:40:16 -0600 on 10/18/00 11:05 AM, Christopher Bigelow at ChrisB@enrich.com wrote: > Does anyone know where the saying, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," > comes from? I'm not positive it's "Greeks," but it will work for me > only if it is. Is this a reference to the Trojan horse? s. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Hugh Subject: [AML] Re: [AML-Mag] Proverb Query Date: 18 Oct 2000 13:54:19 -0500 At 10:05 AM 10/18/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Beware of Greeks bearing gifts From http://www.oup-usa.org/sc/0195143388/glossaries/phrase_b.html: Beware of Greeks bearing gifts/I fear Greeks even when they bear gifts The fall of Troy was finally accomplished by a ruse of the Greeks. They constructed an enormous, hollow, wooden horse, into which they hid some of their best fighters. The horse was left behind as the rest of the Greek host sailed off to the nearby island of Tenedos and waited. The treacherous Sinon convinced the Trojans to drag the gift into the city, despite the warnings of Laocoon, a priest of Poseidon. In Vergil's account, Laocoon implored his countrymen not to bring the treacherous horse into Troy, crying "I fear Greeks even when they bear gifts" (Timeo Danaos et dona ferentis). Two serpents emerged from the sea to strangle Laocoon and his two sons. The Trojans were convinced that they should accept the horse and thus wrought their own destruction. Laocoon's utterance has become a warning to beware of treachery and look for the hidden motives behind even the most fair-seeming generosity. ++++++++++++ Brent Hugh / bhugh@griffon.mwsc.edu ++++++++++++++ + Missouri Western St College Dept of Music, St. Joseph, MO + + Piano Home Page: http://www.mwsc.edu/~bhugh + + Internet Piano Concert: http://www.mwsc.edu/~bhugh/recit + ++++ Classical Piano MP3s: http://www.mp3.com/brent_d_hugh ++++ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Proverb Query Date: 18 Oct 2000 13:00:14 -0600 Does anyone know where the saying, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," > comes from? I'm not positive it's "Greeks," but it will work for me > only if it is. > Waaaaaaaaay back when I was studying Latin in high school, we discussed this at length. It's actual reference is to the Trojan Horse, which was presented as if it were a gift, but actually was a ruse to get soldiers inside the city gates. All the other details are fuzzy, but I'm certain others on the list have a lot more knowledge on this than I do. I'm not doing my best thinking right now--potty training two little boys and trying to keep the rest of my crew under control... Laurel - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Defense of Mormon Culture and Music Date: 18 Oct 2000 13:23:46 -0600 (MDT) I must confess - I enjoy being Mormon and I while I see that our culture has some problems (all cultures have problems, though), I don't see these widespread ones people on the list keep on listing. I rather enjoy being a member of a religion that is at odds with the "greater" culture (whatever that is) and feel that in order to be uniquely Mormon - and to maintain our unique voice - we can and should reject a large part of what the "world" (again, a subjective definition many times) has to offer. Rather than try to make Mormonism more palatable to the masses, I enjoy it when we become "weirder" - on my mission more people joined the church due to curiosity about our "weirdness" than ever joined it because we presented a "we're just like everyone else" face. I know this may be getting far afield of Mormon letters, but I'll tie it back in, I promise. Rex Goode, in a much earlier post said that between the extreme sides on the homosexual issue were real people making real decisions. that's how the church is. The people on Correlation are not some amorphous anal retentive blob. Nor are the members who buy Michael McLean, Jack Weyland and Afterglow brainwashed idiots. They are real people making real decisions. I may not like Michael McLean (okay - I like three of songs - but since he's written hundreds, he doesn't have much of a track record with me) or Jack Weyland, or even Afterglow - but people I respect, people who are academic and smart and even trained in being critics - rather enjoy them. Orson Scott Card has written and essay defending Jack Weyland, and at the AML conference Dean Hughes said we should pay more attention to him as he writes very funny and very real dialogue. I've even met Jack Weyland several times. He's a very smart, funny and well educated man. As for our hymns - I like most of them. If you prefer different styling - you might try Mark Geslison's CDs "Be Still My Soul" (the best of the two) and "Abide With Me" - probably the only LDS marketed hymn album I know of to play hymns on the banjo - as well as in a fiddle style rather than a more classical style on the violin. But overall, we have some wonderful hymns - beautiful, touching, upbeat and inspirational. I may not care for them all, and I may even wish "Amazing Grace" and "Come Thou Font" were in the current version, but overall I'm pleased with the hymns we have. Perhaps they could be played with more vigor (one of my pet peeves is that organists ALWAYS play "Victory. victory thru him that redeemed us" at half speed - so that it sounds like a funeral dirge rather than a victory march), and I at times long for a gospel choir, but the other people in my ward, real people with real tastes that should be recognized and respected, like it the way it already is. Although I once did, I no longer see myself as somehow above the culture, or more enlightened than the vast majority of Mormons. In fact, I am merely a part of the huge conglomerate that makes up "Mormon Culture" - I Have my own unique viewpoints, and I can express them, but ----- Well - let me put it this way _ there was period after my mission where I decided I was somehow more knowledgeable than most members of the church. After all, I knew NT Greek, and I prefeedr the NASB over the KJV in Bible translations (still do). I murmured all through testimony meetings about the simple, cliched testimonies and openly critiqued Gospel doctrine teachers on their inaccurate readings of the scriptures. I complained to friends and associates about our bland pop music and spent much time denouncing Mormon culture. And then suddenly, one day as I was waking to school (I have a 25 minute walk to school every day that keeps me in shape and gives me time to think), I realized I wasn't too happy in doing all this, I was miserable. I also realized I enjoyed being a Mormon. Then I read OSC's "A Storteler in Zion" where he talks about how we need writers and critics who, while critical of our faults in LDS culture, are also full memebers - "one of the bunch" - not an outside critic, but an insider who is honestly and truly a Mormon and glad to be one. From that day, I have honestly decided that I enjoy being a Mormon, and overall (despite a few problems) I enjoy Mormon culture. It's a tendency I had to fight against, and I know that some of my friends still fight against it - the tendency to focus on all that is bad with Mormon culture and then set oneself up as an outsider critic. But as some of my friends have discovered, an outside critic merely alienates himself and effects no change in the culture. And I don't ven mind cliches in testimony meeting anymore - after all it's basically an improvisational talk, and cliche's comet the easiest to mind - most improvisational comedians (such as on "Whose Line is it Anyway") rely on cliches - because they're easy to come up with quickly. I see other members of the church - real people, making real decisions, as important checks to myself. I have well thought out positions on may things related to the Gospel and Mormonism, but I also consider what everyone else has to say. If I am rejected at a church dance because my clothes are immodest, perhaps they were and I was fooling myself in beleiveing they weren't. If the Bishop tells me to stop proclaiming a certain idea (well-thought out and researched as it may be) of mine, he may be right. I am not always right, and neither are anyone - whether on this list, in the church or from Oz (the fairy land or the jail). Other people are important checks - that's the beauty of the church. It allows us to associate with people we would otherwise not associate with - giving us new insights in life and providing important checks on our (my) narrow view of the world. Any literature that wants to create any change in our culture must do so from the inside - it must be seen by the members as written by someone who is proud to be part of the church and culture, yet wishes us only to consider these few things we can do better on (such as Orson Scott Card already does). Those who write from the outside, attacking the church (such as "Dancing Naked") will never have power to awaked Mormons to any sense of anything because it will always perceived by an attack by an outsider - as it should be, IMHO. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 18 Oct 2000 13:05:11 -0600 But the killer was the chorus of that verse that goes > "You who unto Jesus" I'm still having problems with the changes they incorporated into this hymn in the "new" hymnbook. I will probably sing Yoo Hoo for the rest of my life on that chorus. I have been astounded at what the BYU groups can do with some of the hymns. I never thought of "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" as a beautiful hymn until I heard it done on the Thanksgiving CD. I've listened to it literally hundreds of times and it still takes my breath away. Laurel - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Robert Petersen Subject: Re: [AML] Proverb Query Date: 18 Oct 2000 16:13:57 -0500 Chris, This is the best I can do. I'm not too good with Shakespeare. "Do not trust the horse, Trojans! Whatever it is, I fear the Greeks, even though they bring gifts." from Virgil, The Aeneid -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean FH Macy Subject: [AML] Re: [AML-Mag] Proverb Query Date: 18 Oct 2000 17:31:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------721AAF78F1132567595F34E4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christopher Bigelow wrote: > Does anyone know where the saying, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," comes > from? I'm not positive it's "Greeks," but it will work for me only if it > is. The quote is correct. It from Homer (Illyad/Oddesy?) Regarding the advice to the queen about the Trojan Horse. Dean --------------721AAF78F1132567595F34E4 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="deanmacy.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Dean FH Macy Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="deanmacy.vcf" begin:vcard n:-"Many people will walk in and out of your life, but;- only true friends will leave footprints in your heart." tel;pager:FILM: www.mp3.com/stations/one_christmas_eve tel;fax:603 924-4412 tel;home:603 924-4409 tel;work:603 924-4412 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.newenglandtalent.org org:New England Talent, Ltd.;Child Artist Management version:2.1 email;internet:deanmacy@monad.net title:President and CEO note:SPECIALIZING IN THE MANAGEMENT OF EXCEPTIONAL CHILDREN IN VOCAL MUSIC adr;quoted-printable:;;14 Granite Street - =0D=0AStudio Five;Peterborough;New Hampshire;03458-1413;USA fn:Dean FH Macy, Lit.D. end:vcard --------------721AAF78F1132567595F34E4-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Covell, Jason" Subject: RE: [AML] Proverb Query Date: 19 Oct 2000 08:56:46 +1100 Lemme see... "Timeo Danos et dona ferentes" is the saying in Latin. But it's from the Iliad, which is in Greek... I've been away from the classics too long to work out why I remember it in Latin, not Greek. Jason Covell > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher Bigelow [mailto:ChrisB@mail.enrich.com] > Sent: Thursday, 19 October 2000 4:05 > To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com > Subject: [AML] Proverb Query > > > Does anyone know where the saying, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," > comes from? I'm not positive it's "Greeks," but it will work for me > only if it is. > > Is this Shakespeare, or from somewhere else? > > Anything you can tell me about it would be appreciated. > > Chris Bigelow > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: [AML] Alliances (was: Didactic Literature) Date: 18 Oct 2000 17:47:06 EDT But Thom, wouldn't that make me one of the Signaturi? :) Honestly, my hesitation about Signature is both cowardly and complex. I am currently allied with Evergreen, not because my point of view is entirely consistent with their posturing, but because it is consistent with most of their mission statement. As with any organization, they have a mission statement that some of their members adhere to and some do not. Even the Church has that problem. It's the difference between doctrine and culture. Current Evergreen "doctrine" does not insist that we are born this way and does not state that we are working towards heterosexual bliss. "Evergreen is founded on the belief that the atonement of Jesus Christ enables every soul the opportunity to turn away from all sins or conditions that obstruct their temporal and eternal happiness and potential." Now, that's a statement I can heartily endorse, but as with anything, is subject to my interpretation of what it means. Other planks in the Evergreen Mission statement are only acceptable to me insofar as they have translated my beliefs correctly. I run a support group that helps LDS men who are striving to keep the commandments regarding behavior, only. We do not make any claims that they will be "cured" or that they must get married. We don't make any claims that this choice will always be easy, or that through therapy, they will suddenly see women in a new light. I am there to support them in the choices they have made to either remain single and celibate, remain married, or get married someday. My supervisor in this effort is LDS Family Services, not Evergreen. Another common misconception about Evergreen, perpetuated by its own sustaining membership, is that there are such things as Evergreen groups. Evergreen does not sponsor groups. They merely provide educational materials and support. They don't conduct therapy, either. Evergreen culture goes somewhat farther than their doctrine. The mainstream Evergreen culture has long been on the "straighter-than-thou" side of the question. With all of my bumping up against the Evergreen culture, I can't bring myself to align with Affirmation. It is not in my nature to tell apostles and prophets what they should or shouldn't say. It's also not in my nature to play the victim and claim that their words hurt me. I don't look to anyone to approve of the choices I've made. Now that I've spelled out my alliances, I can more easily explain why the idea of being published by Signature makes me a little nervous. It would compromise my current alliances. I perhaps misjudge that my main readership would be Evergreen allies, but I don't think that Evergreen would sell or recommend a Signature book from their outlet. I could be wrong. It would also create a problem, possibly, for my involvement in the support group I run. I know that some day, if I am to maintain my integrity, I will have to ignore my cowardice and just be myself. I will either do this or I won't write it. In conversations with people on this topic, there are always a lot of assumptions about what I must be saying. That's why a book would help me break free of the current polar ways of thinking. When I say that I have maintained a great marriage for twenty-four years, people assume I'd make for a good poster child for the ex-gay movement. When I say that I haven't gone through therapy to change my orientation, people think I'm not doing all I can to overcome my struggles. Then, when I say that I don't feel like I'm struggling, they really start to wonder. I should hate being this way, right? Can't bring myself to do that. When I speak to people of the opposite point of view, their assumptions are equally skewed. When I say to them that I've maintained a great marriage for twenty-four years, they assume I'm not really homosexually-attracted. Given the current climate, why would someone admit to something like that if it weren't true? The biggest skepticism I get from that crowd is on my statement that I'm happy being married to a woman. It's because everyone has been lobotomized by the posturing that has gone on for decades now. In a lot of ways, I feel like a man without a country. I have no experience in the publishing world, including the LDS-related publishing world. When and if I write something, I'll want a publisher that is willing to let me express my point of view. I suppose they would have to be willing to not worry about their alliances either. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Didactic Literature Date: 18 Oct 2000 18:04:52 EDT Cathy, It is interesting that you bring up this point. I never thought of it in terms of didactic literature. In support groups I operate, especially those related to 12-step fellowships, it is important that when someone speaks, they are speaking from their own experience. No authoritative pronouncements are allowed. No claims to have "the answer" to the problems is permitted. Other than a moderator (me), everyone carries the same rank, the rank of personal experience. It is a common problem among Mormons, to feel like they have to back up everything they say with personal revelation. This creates a real problem when speaking to people seeking support for the difficulties they face. Imagine someone saying to you, "The Lord told me exactly what you should do about that problem of yours." It happens too often, and then I find myself in the position of having to remind the group no one in the group may receive revelations for another person or for the group. It's called "crosstalk." So, to avoid being didactic in personal essay, I need to keep that focus, to only speak for myself. If this is what I hear you saying, I agree. So didactic literature is literary crosstalk. [Rex Goode] _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 18 Oct 2000 15:31:40 -0700 (PDT) I have to mention my favorite CD of gospel music, Brett Raymond's "Primarily for Grown-Ups." All the tracks are primary songs with interesting, sometimes very touching and sometimes just fun arrangements. "Book of Mormon Stories" in the style of Sting and "'Give,' Said the Little Stream" in the style of James Taylor are especially fun. Just all-around delightful music. I too have noticed the difference in the sound of the Mo-Tabs lately. I think they have a slightly younger sound now--maybe because of the recently revised age limits? The dissolution of the Mormon Youth Choir has only helped the Mo-Tabs sound better, I think, as members of the former move into the latter. As to the hymns, how can I tell why I love some and not others? Some are symbolic of times in my life when I was moved by them. For example, I had never loved "The Morning Breaks" until the fall that I showed up to the meetinghouse to listen to General Conference only to be bowled over by a wave of homesickness when I heard the familiar organ and choir sounds. And then there's the time I was struggling with testimony and went to a devotional at the Marriott Center and heard all 20-some-odd-thousand students there singing "I Know That My Redeemer Lives," and I knew too. Others are just plain beautiful ("If You Could Hie to Kolob"), or are meaningful because they speak to my community ("Come, Come Ye Saints" and "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief"). I disagree that there is a trend towards greater insipidness in more recent hymns. It's simply that the most over-sung ones are the ones of less quality ("I Believe in Christ" and "Called to Serve"). But think of "Where Can I Turn for Peace?," which is one of the most beautiful examples of poetry to be found in the hymnbook. ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 18 Oct 2000 18:06:45 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 9:39 AM Eric wrote: > Having said that, let me add a few dissenting opinions. The Tab Choir is MUCH improved over the past two years. They're tighter, they're cleaner in tone, and they're doing some of those terrific Mac Wilberg hymn arrangements. (Anytime you hear the first verse sung by one section of the choir, a cappella and in unison, and then layer after layer of complexity added as the song progresses, that's the Mac Wilberg influence). I was amazed this last conference at the difference in their sound. I've even started listening to Spoken Word occasionally (and not only the ones I wrote :-)) Richard's response: I was wondering how many noticed the deterioration of the Tab Choir under Jerold Ottley (sp?). Sister Ottley is a personal friend of my aunt's and I have had the occasion to get to know her pretty well as a result. She is a marvelous singer, well trained (by my aunt :-)), but her husband is not distinct enough in his hand and arm movements to establish a solid beat. It drives me (a musician and choir director in my own right) absolutely nuts! And to allow them to sing while seated!!! My teachers (Roger Wagner of fame in So Cal, especially) would have had a cow. So I too have been excited to see the recent improvement. Hope it continues. BTW, on the subject of Mormon Music, my brother, Tom Hopkins, whom some of you know, is now VP of Music here at Cornerstone. We're planning our first album to be released for next April Conference. It should be quite good. My brother is a strong opponent of what he calls "Chicken Rock" in LDS music. (That's where the song should be full-on rock & roll, but the group chickens out and only does it half way.) Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 18 Oct 2000 21:22:30 -0600 on 10/18/00 6:06 PM, Richard R. Hopkins at rrhopkins@horizonpublishers.com wrote: > BTW, on the subject of Mormon Music, my brother, Tom Hopkins, whom some of > you know, is now VP of Music here at Cornerstone. And he plays a pretty mean "Johnny B. Goode" on the guitar! Steve P. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 18 Oct 2000 21:15:46 EDT In a message dated 10/18/00 7:31:14 PM Central Daylight Time, rrhopkins@horizonpublishers.com writes: << I was wondering how many noticed the deterioration of the Tab Choir under Jerold Ottley (sp?). Sister Ottley is a personal friend of my aunt's and I have had the occasion to get to know her pretty well as a result. She is a marvelous singer, well trained (by my aunt :-)), but her husband is not distinct enough in his hand and arm movements to establish a solid beat >> I noticed and wrote to Brother Ottley. It might not be his fault because he has to conduct what the Music Committee permits, and so they were singing more and more hymns and bland and boring music. He said "them that have the gold make the rules." We should all know who he is talking about. I miss the glorious anthems and classical pieces they sang years ago, and confess that I seldom listen to them anymore, and never hear their CD's played on the local classical radio station. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harlow Clark Subject: Re: [AML] Proverb Query Date: 19 Oct 2000 00:46:40 -0400 (EDT) On 10/18/00 11:05 AM, Christopher Bigelow at ChrisB@enrich.com wrote: > Does anyone know where the saying, "Beware of Greeks bearing > gifts," comes from? I'm not positive it's "Greeks," but it > will work for me only if it is. Steve Perry replied: > Is this a reference to the Trojan horse? It is. I thought it might be in the Immortal Beard's _Troilus and Cressida_ , but couldn't find the phrase in an online version, so I typed it into hotbot and searched for the exact phrase. I found a source describing a group of computer nerds who uncovered a huge on-line scam--oh, wait, I typed it in wrong, "Beware of geeks baring grifts." Try again. Hmm. This story is about circus freaks hawking breakfast cereal down south, but it had to be recalled, something about tread separation (?) What the, what the, what the? (as pickin' Hicken, my old ZL from Lethbridge (love that name, with its image of a bridge leading to sleep) Alberta Canada, used to say) oh, sorry, I typed in "Beware of geeks bearing grits." Try again. This time I got a story about a bunch of guys in Arab dress at the Democratic National Convention trying to get Walter Mondale elected. Now I know I didn't type in "Beware of sheiks blaring, 'Fritz.'" Something must be on the fritz, and I'd better close before I type in Laocoon, the guy who uttered the phrase. It would probably come out Lackawanna. No it's not what happens to some married couples' sex drive after a while, it's a little town up near Buffalo where a couple of missionaries got attacked with a hockey stick in front of their house. They weren't hurt, managed to duck when the stick was swung, and managed to throw their bikes over the fence and dive over it themselves. Apparently one of them had said something to a gang member, or been involved in some kind of altercation. "The word was out to get the Mormon missionaries," Elder Takos (my comp in Elmira--home of American LaFrance fire engines and Mark Twain's RIP) told me. Pres Barlow closed Lackawanna. I don't know if it's been reopened in the 25 years since then, but we always used to say that if any missionaries got in trouble pres'd send them to Laocoon. (Stupid spellchecker. I did not write Laos-ocean) Cralk Wolrah [Harlow Clark] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] MITCHELL, _Angel of the Danube_ (Special Offer) Date: 19 Oct 2000 10:25:45 -0500 After Christopher Bigalow wrote the following, I decided to offer my humble work. >>I really admire Richard Dutcher for leading the cultural charge--he gives a fascinating interview in the upcoming Irreantum about his impulses. Instead of Mormon artists creating stuff they consciously or subconsciously think will be palatable--or, on the other extreme, antagonistic--to Church administrators, we should be creating stuff that reflects and deepens a real human, ethnic culture rather than a thinly disguised propaganda program, for or against. >>It's too bad Deseret Book and its imitators dominate the LDS publishing scene, which is why I think Mormon authors are going to have to do an end run through national avenues to really get anywhere culturally, unless a viable mainstream press arises that fills in the space between Signature and Deseret. Okay Chris and List, try this one: SPECIAL BOOK OFFER FOR AML LIST Members Angel of the Danube by Alan Rex Mitchell Bonneville Books Copy: On the third day of a retreat into the Mojave Desert, a troubled beach bum is counseled to complete his missionary journal. Thus begins an entertaining spiritual adventure painted thick in Mormon missionary subculture, Austrian hospitality and folk legends, forbidden love, angels, and the people who shaped his worldview. Can the Viennese legend of the angel help him come to grips with his mission, his love, and his life? Get ready for an exhilarating ride. Winner, Association for Mormon Letters Marilyn Brown Novel Award 2000 Praise for Angel of the Danube “Alan Mitchell is Mormon literature's answer to Saul Bellow's Henderson the Rain King. Angel of the Danube is a refreshing, exciting, moving--and comical--account of a young man's successful search for spiritual wholeness. Writing deftly in California hip dialect (Mark Twain did almost as well in Huck Finn), Mitchell has hung a rich and literarily satisfying coming-of-age novel upon an infrastructure of Austrian folklore and the ups-and-downs of Mormon missionary life. The result is a landmark novel unique in Mormon fiction that will delight everyone except the Church Missionary Committee--who will just have to enjoy it privately.” Richard H. Cracroft, Brigham Young Univ. Professor of English, Center for the Study of Christian Values in Literature “An informed insider glimpse of an interesting European culture and an interesting religious group with the two bouncing off each other. It’s main themes of love and spiritual awakening are universal.” Lorene Forman, Antelope Book Club “A refreshing personal modern treatment of one Mormon missionary’s adventures, this book was a winner in the 2000 Association for Mormon Letter Unpublished Novel Competition. The crisp style far exceeds in quality most of the Mormon novels.” Marilyn Brown, Author Peacekeepers “As I poured over Elder Monroe's quizzical spiritual journey, I felt confusion, compassion, anger, whimsy, and joy. It was as if I were sneaking a peek into my companion's personal diary without him knowing. At other times, I felt as if I were reading my own!” Kurt Bestor, Composer/Performer List Price $12.95 Special AML List Price: $11.-- For the autographed copy send check to: Alan Rex Mitchell, PO Box 113, Vernon, UT 84080. Or contact alan@trilobyte.net or call 435-839-3442 Include $1.50 for shipping and Utah residents include sales tax ($0.60) Total $12.50 or 13.10 Name_______________________ Address _____________________ One final offer: If you can find a non-Mormon to read and give me written or email feedback on the book, I'll send you a book for free (limited to the first three inquiries). No Mormonphiliacs please--sorry Jeff--but I would like mainstreamer opinions. Send me their name--email is fine. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Proverb Query Date: 19 Oct 2000 00:25:31 -0600 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > Does anyone know where the saying, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," > comes from? I'm not positive it's "Greeks," but it will work for me > only if it is. I don't know who coined it, but the phrase refers to the Trojan horse, and "Greeks" is correct. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Proverb Query Date: 19 Oct 2000 10:28:48 -0400 mjames_laurel wrote: > . I'm not doing my best > thinking right now--potty training two little boys and trying to keep the > rest of my crew under control... Beware of diapers bearing gifts! Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] American Movies Date: 19 Oct 2000 07:50:00 -0200 American produces a lot of films a year...Maybe United States is the greatest producer of films in the world... What abaout the quality of these works? Do you think Titanic was good? Do you think Ghost was good? Most of american films have trivial themes with obvious end.Of course we have a lot of epic or historic movies that are really a good work...But I really think american could produce better movies with a better social context... There are a lot of tecnology ...but, and the context??? Renato Rigo Brazil renatorigo@ig.com.br __________________________________________________________________________ Todo brasileiro tem direito a um e-mail gr=E1tis http://www.bol.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: [AML] Richard EYRE, _Life Before Life_ (Review) Date: 18 Oct 2000 21:46:53 -0700 Review ====== Richard Eyre,. "Life Before Life" 2000, Shadow Mountain (imprint of Deseret Book) Hardback, 180 pages, $18.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle "Life Before Life" might be titled, "Pre-existence For Dummies." Not to say the book isn't well-written, nor is it to say that it doesn't offer some very good information. Only to say that someone completely unfamiliar with the idea of a pre-life can pick this book up and understand its concepts. The book is divided into three sections, with the middle section a long and leisurely account of Eyre's journey to the top of Mt. Kilimanjaro. His journey into the rarefied air of this climber's dream brought to his mind so many reasons why such a book should be written. Having toyed with the idea for some time, the insights he gained on this climb convinced him beyond doubt that this book was needed. Eyre begins by showing how the concept of the pre-existence is both rational and historical. He cites pre- and post- Socratic philosophers, as well as (admittedly discounted) Church fathers. He also ventures out into what is called the "New Age" movement to demonstrate the variations (reincarnation, etc.) found there. His basic thesis is that belief in, and understanding of, the pre-existence can guide and motivate us into living better lives. It provides a sense of continuity missing in those who do not accept the concept. It also fosters a sense of belonging, a relatedness to all of humankind, all of us offspring of the same Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. It also can give life a sense of purpose. Now, let it be said that there are certain words which are nowhere used in this book. Among them are: Mormon, Latter- day Saint, Restoration, etc. In fact, there is no reference to the Church at all in this book, except for a brief notice at the beginning that Eyre is a member of a Church that believes in the idea of a pre-existence. He does give a short summation of the ideas of the pre-mortal Council, the role of Lucifer (although not mentioned by name), and other ideas from the Pearl of Great Price. But nowhere does he acknowledge the source of these ideas. And I wondered if an understanding of the pre-existence, in isolation from the rest of the Gospel, can really accomplish all that he envisions. The book is written in the style of a self-help, motivational book, rather than a religious/doctrinal tome. His final word acknowledges that he hasn't revealed his denominational affiliation, but supplies a New York-based P.O. Box for those who wish to obtain further information. I would love to know what he sends in response to requests. I assume he will forward more complete information to them; I would love to know what kind of response he gets. I haven't seen the book in secular bookstores the erstwhile goal of the Shadow Mountain imprint my copy was purchased at Deseret Book. Eyre is a management consultant, and his writing style is consistent with this. "Life Before Life" is a fast and pleasant read, and may be helpful to Latter-day Saints who want a fresh and contemporary way to present this interesting concept to their non-Mormon friends. --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 19 Oct 2000 11:05:17 -0600 On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:31:40 -0700 (PDT), Darlene Young wrote: >I have to mention my favorite CD of gospel music, >Brett Raymond's "Primarily for Grown-Ups." All the >tracks are primary songs with interesting, sometimes >very touching and sometimes just fun arrangements.=20 >"Book of Mormon Stories" in the style of Sting and >"'Give,' Said the Little Stream" in the style of James >Taylor are especially fun. Just all-around delightful >music. We like this one at our house, too. He sounds a *lot* like Sting and I think he takes advantage of that. It's like hearing Sting sing Primary Songs. It helps that we're big Sting fans at our house (I hate the Radio and Video mix for Desert Rose. Gotta listen to that one on CD to get the full layering with his co-singer). Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] American Movies Date: 19 Oct 2000 12:07:15 -0600 renatorigo wrote: > Most of american films have trivial themes with obvious > end.Of course we have a lot of epic or historic movies > that are really a good work...But I really think american > could produce better movies with a better social > context... You don't need to be from Brazil to think that! A lot of people are spending a lot of brain power trying to figure out how to reform Hollywood or do an end run around it in the independent film arena. Richard Dutcher with _God's Army_ is one who succeeded with the end run thing. If movies didn't cost so dang much to produce and distribute, it'd be a lot easier. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: [AML] Signaturi (was: Alliances) Date: 19 Oct 2000 14:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Rex Goode says, "But Thom, wouldn't that make me one of the Signaturi? :)" And many others make similar hints occasionally. Forgive my ignorance. I am new (newer than I thought, I'm discovering) to the Mormon literature community. But I have a question about something that everyone else seems to already understand but never states out loud: what does "being published by Signature" mean? I had thought of Signature as just like any other publisher (except those which are obviously Church-oriented such as Deseret Book and Covenant): simply an independent press, one that may publish things of which I do not approve or even which I think are critical of my beliefs, but also which publishes things that support my beliefs. I am sensing, however, that there more to Signature's reputation than just being independent. There seems to be a label that is applied when a person publishes with Signature. Is such a choice symbolic of a person's "throwing in" with some sort of a political camp or admitting to considering him- or herself on the "outside" of Mormon culture? As someone who hopes to be working within the LDS publishing community at some point in my life, I need to be aware of any connotations that come with a certain name. Please, someone, be brave and state it straight out. I catch the hints but I'd like to hear it straight. ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Re: Mormon Music Date: 20 Oct 2000 00:20:26 EDT Shirley Hatfield : My very favorite hymn was "How Firm a Foundation." ... the killer was the chorus of that verse that goes "You who unto Jesus"...well, when Grandma and some of the other old ladies in the congregation started yodeling "YooHoooooo unto Jesus"... Does the song even have that chorus any more? _______________ They changed the words in the 1985 hymnbook in order to cut down on Yoo Hooing in sacrament meeting. The verse now goes, "... who unto the Savior." I always enjoyed "Have I Done Any Good (in the world today?)." In the Air Force, a drone is a remotely piloted vehicle, that is, an airplane flown by remote control. They were used for important research projects, or sometimes as targets so other fighter pilots could practice shooting them down. I used to enjoy sitting in the congregation with the head of the drone program for the Air Force as we all sang the end of the 2nd verse, "... the world has no use for the drone." This line has also been changed: "To God each good work will be known." (And the Air Force had nothing to do with it, I'm sure.) Some of the new hymns are very beautiful. Many of the old hymns were more exciting and fun to sing. Then again, sometimes it just depended on how well the organist could play. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 20 Oct 2000 07:55:27 -0200 What do you mean about Mormon music? Is there any special difference between Mormon Music and the others? Rythm? Musical Instruments? Organs? The Context? Is there any Mormon music movement in The US, similar to Gospel Music? Is there anybody to explain clearly what Mormon music exactly is? Renato Rigo __________________________________________________________________________ Todo brasileiro tem direito a um e-mail gr=E1tis http://www.bol.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 20 Oct 2000 09:14:43 -0500 There's a T-shirt peddled by the Onion that reads: "Your Favorite Hymn Sucks." Designed to incite riots, I assume. I think that it's funny and horrible at the same time, like saying someone's children are ugly. Nevertheless, my main concern with LDS music has little to do with my taste, but with something else that I think is more insidious, and is not mentioned often enough in disussions of the Church and its influence. Namely, it is that we not only proclaim the gospel with our missionary efforts, but we act like sanctimonious cultural imperialists, by insisting on Western middle-class norms. This happens in clothing, in the narrative styles of church videos, the content of the homes represented therein, the depiction of the characters, etc. But in nothing do we show our imperial stripe more clearly than in our music. "Good music" to a significant body of the church is what they hear in church, or on the spoken word, or during conference. Our hymns DO have some fine lyrics, but the music is generally horrible except for the tunes which we have lifted from the folk traditions of other countries, which are European. And it is these hymns that we foist off on other cultures. Why, for example, do we, in the States never hear hymns based on the folk melodies of Ghana, or the Hopi, or the Central and South Americans? I'll tell you why? Because it would creep most middle-class Americans out. They wouldn't know how to deal with it, sing along with it, and so forth. Which is a problem now since middle-clas Americans make up an increasingly smaller portion of the gospel pie. So if it is true that Americans would get creeped out by this strange music, why don't we recognize that other cultures might be creeped out by having to sing hymns generated primarily by 19th century American Pioneers? Of course, there are translations, but they are only of the content of the lyrics, not of the music. No real attempt is made to reach out to the world in that respect. I come from a very long line of musical people. My grandmother studied at the American conservatory in Fontainbleu just outside Paris in the mid-30s where she worked with Nadia Boulanger who was Aaron Copland and Astor Piazzola's composition teacher. My mother's choir in DC just won a Grammy for their recording of Brittan's War Requiem. They will be recording Verdi's Requiem this fall for Elektra/Nonesuch. Both have been involved in secular and church choirs for more than fifty combined years, so I have had a chance, in my life to hear what REAL church music is supposed to sound like, and I only hear it rarely at my church services, even when the Tabernacle Choir is signing, and it is not because of the MTC, but because of their material. We rely only on OUR hymns and don't make use of the rich tradition of Christian music that is already available to us via Bach, Faure, and others. But still, and here is where I get onto my particular hobbyhorse, one that is so common in my hobbyhorse repetoire that when I mentioned to a friend that this is a direction the thread had taken, he said, "Oh so now you're going to mention. . . . " And so I am. Christ did not listen to the music we do. The people he knew might not have liked our music at all, because it would have been very foreign to them. The music at Christ's time would have been highly rhythmic, perhaps even repetative, even ecstatic, coming in odd times, played on any number of drums and purcussive instruments, stringed instruments--in short, nothing at all like what we hear with piano and chorister. (See Peter Gabriel's PASSION SOURCES.) So when we, meaning the church, make decisions that formally-recognized and canonized classical music is what is righteous and faith-promoting, we are not simply asserting an issue of taste, but a cultural one as well and we're tying ot to spirituality, a distinction in which we diminish the official validity of other cultures and other times, one in which we, meaning the church, sometimes feel the license to comdemn. This is how the cultural imperialism happens. It is how we, without knowing it, behave more like a virus than a church. The gospel, of course, is true, I have no doubts about that. Middle-class Mormon culture, which hitches a ride on that truth like a flea or a head louse, is something of which I am less and less certain. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hansen Subject: [AML] Introductions: Dave Hansen Date: 19 Oct 2000 17:59:29 -0600 Perhaps this is a good time to introduce myself. I've been a member of the list for a few months and have posted several times, but my work keeps me from posting more regularly. You see, I'm a lawyer, and the presumption is that you have to at least look busy even if you aren't really working. (It gives great practice at that whole deception thing (is this why Ed Snow left?!?)) I work mostly with employee benefits law in downtown Salt Lake which keeps me sufficiently bored most of the time. Now that I've described myself as a lawyer (the stereotypes come fast and furious), I'll tell you who I really am. Last week my wife Kathy gave birth to our third child, James. Mother and son are doing splendidly. John David, 5, and Megan, 2 and 1/2 (the 1/2 is VERY important!), love having a new brother, and I love being a dad for the 3rd time. My artistic background, such as it is, is in music. For the past 8 years I have been a member of the Utah Chamber Artists. (SHAMELESS PLUG COMING) Utah Chamber Artists is a professional orchestra and choir which performs five concerts a year in the new Gardner Hall at the University of Utah. The first concert for the coming season is this Monday October 23, 2000, at 7:30 P.M. If you haven't seen (or heard) the new Gardner Hall it is a sight to behold. Besides being visually stunning, it accoustically rivals Abravanel Hall IMO (but obviously on a much smaller scale). Our director is Barlow Bradford who, along with Mack Wilberg are the new associate directors of the Tab Choir. Jerry Ottley will direct our Christmas Concert and major conductors from around the country are lining up to conduct us in the next few years. Most of the orchestra also plays with the Orchestra at Temple Square. I also have some ties with the Tabernacle Choir. I have read with interest the comments on church music and mostly agree with the general sentiment. Mack Wilberg is a fine addition to the choir, and their sound has definitely improved. Yet, IMO the revolution that the choir will undergo in the next five years will be related more to the Orchestra at Temple Square and Barlow Bradford than any one thing the choir will do. There are some very exciting things going on that cannot happen anyplace else. I don't have a strong literature background other than a love for reading, and particularly fiction. In the last year I have emersed myself in church arts, I've also had the opportunity to read quite a bit of the recent Mormon fiction, and am pleased that it is improving so much. (I just finished Dean Hughes, Children of the Promise, Vol 5, and would highly recommend the whole series. It was all set up for the cliched "happily ever-after" ending, but didn't do it. Whew!) [MOD: For purposes of keeping threads straight, I'm snipping the rest of this message and including it in a separate post.] Dave Hansen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hansen Subject: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 19 Oct 2000 17:59:29 -0600 As I am so close to the institutional church's music and art, I am a little sensitive to comments made that we should "take our culture back." If the institutional church does not set the culture, then what is the culture? If you seperate the culture from the church you have nothing IMO. So, I guess the thought that somehow the church and the church arts/ culture ought to be separated is wrong. Perhaps this runs into the didactic thread, but I can't help but feel that all art communicates. IMO, and as had been said already, all art teaches in the sense that any other communication teaches. You can't stop the communication of art, and therefore can't stop it from being didactic regardless of whether its sponsored by any particular organization. (If you don't like the institution's culture, that's a separate issue. IMO, I truly believe that the church wants to support the best artists out there.) You can certainly make artistic communication more subtle by using symbols (the ordinances of the church are a perfect example of this BTW) or ironies, but the art still communicates. Therefore, the question always is "what is being communicated?" So, I guess I'm in the camp that says that all art is didactic to some degree, its just the form of the art that people do or don't like. (Perhaps some on the list would like church music better if the music was less overt or more subtle? (Nah.:)) I do want to make the point that painting, and music communicate without words, and that this is still communication. Regardless of what the hymn words say, the music says something as well. This is why some music is so dangerous, and other music so powerfully good. There's no question that all church art needs to improve greatly. Finally I feel like there are enough good artists in the church to accomplish it, and I believe that in the next few years you will see an explosion of excellent church art, music, drama and literature which will bring our culture to a much higher level. (OK enough of the soapbox. See what happens when you get a lawyer started!) Dave Hansen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] Steve Covey Date: 20 Oct 2000 08:01:12 -0200 Here in Brazil, the best seller Mormon books are the books of Steve Covey, The Book of Mormon, and other scriptures...in this order. In his books he introduces Mormon doctrine about family, work, health, money, hapiness without saying this is Mormon doctrine....I really loved his books.. What=B4s the opinion of american critics about Covey=B4s books? Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br __________________________________________________________________________ Todo brasileiro tem direito a um e-mail gr=E1tis http://www.bol.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] TAYLOR, _The Dinner Club_ (Review) Date: 20 Oct 2000 01:00:48 JST Title: The Dinner Club Author: Curtis Taylor Publisher: Foreword Press, Camino, Ca. Publication date: 2000 368 pages. So far this has been an excellent year for Mormon novels. Margaret=20 Young/Darius Gray, Benson, Eric Sam., Hughes and Card (as usual), and novels= =20 I haven't read yet by John Bennion and Linda Adams. Well, add to the list= =20 _The Dinner Club_. While this is only Taylor's second novel (outside co-writing a juvenile=20 action series), he has been a presence in LDS literature for the entire=20 decade. The Invisible Saint (1990), was his first novel, a very funny=20 self-published fantasy/fable, including the only satire of the LDS=20 publishing market I have ever seen. (See Jeff Needle's review of the book= =20 in the archives). Around that same time Taylor and his friend Stan Zenk=20 became editors and part-owners of Aspen Books, where Taylor ghostwrote Betty= =20 Eadie's "Embraced By the Light", which became a national best-seller. In=20 1996 they bought the entire company, but then sold it soon thereafter. =20 While they were there in the early and mid-90s, Aspen put out some wonderful= =20 Mormon literature, including Margaret Young's Salvador, and books by Doug=20 Thayer, Donlu Thayer, Samuel Taylor, Marilyn Brown, Davis Bitton, Daniel=20 Peterson, Lowell Bennion, Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, Emma Lou Thayne, Maureen= =20 Beecher, Carol Lynn Pearson, Bill Hartley, Robert F. Smith, Robert Kirby,=20 and Benson Parkinson, and the "Christmas for the World" short story=20 collection. Aspen seemed like it was going to be one of our great=20 hopes—publishing quality, adventurous, but basically faithful fiction.= =20 Unfortunately, Aspen has done very little since Taylor and Zenk sold it,= =20 just publishing Benson's sequel, as far as I know. Taylor is also the=20 creator, writer, and voice for the nationally syndicated radio show "This=20 American Minute". (Thanks to aml postings by Stan Zenk and Morgan Adair for= =20 this information). So anyway, back to the book. To start out with, Taylor is a very funny=20 writer, and anyone glancing over the back cover of The Dinner Club might=20 come away with the mistaken impression that this is comic novel in the mold= =20 of The Invisible Saint. Well, there are funny moments, especially at the=20 beginning. But the book's core is a series of very unfunny tragedies which= =20 befall the central character, and the way he rallies his family together,=20 increases his faith, and is blessed with strength and unexpected blessings= =20 from the Lord. Early on the big-rig trucker-protagonist, Chris Young, is hit by a wave of= =20 unexplained nausea after stops to help the driver of another car. He goes= =20 into a bushy ravine on the side of the road to empty his stomach, where he= =20 discovers a car that had driven off the road the day before, with a woman=20 inside close to death. He calls the paramedics who are already on the scene= =20 helping the man in the first accident, and the woman is saved. His friends= =20 later tease him, saying usually the Lord sends us good feelings, not nausea,= =20 when He sends a message. This story sets the tone for the entire=20 book—the Lord using unpleasant circumstances to draw his children to= =20 places they need to be. The central tragedy is that Chris's wife, without much explanation, skips=20 town with one of their friends, abandoning the family. Taylor describes the= =20 devastation this act creates in vivid and heartbreaking detail. At the same= =20 time, his trucking business begins to fall apart. Fortunately, Chris is=20 blessed with a supportive ward and parents-in-law, and he develops a=20 relationship with his Heavenly Father which goes far beyond what he had=20 before. Taylor does a great job in creating an engrossing plot and=20 characters I care about; I was pulled into their world. The voice of the novel might not appeal to some. It is written in=20 first-person, with Chris telling the story. The narration reminds me of a= =20 Holden Caulfield-kind of style that I often see in juvenile novels, a smart= =20 (but put-upon) young person commenting wryly on themselves and the people=20 around them. It is the same kind of flip style that helped to make The=20 Invisible Saint funny, and keeps the mood from getting too dark in The=20 Dinner Club. I didn't mind it, but some, especially those with more=20 literary tastes, might be put off. Another thing that might annoy some, especially someone who has gone through= =20 these kind of tragedies, is how well (and how quickly!) things get resolved= =20 in the end. The speedy reconciliation of Chris with his estranged parents= =20 is a good case in point. I found it hard to begrudge the poor guy, after=20 all he went through in the first three-quarters of the book, but it did seem= =20 a bit forced. Still, the scenes of reconciliation and forgiveness are=20 beautifully done, and I'm glad they are in there. I wouldn't doubt that the publisher, Foreword Press, is simply Taylor's=20 self-publication, as he did with The Invisible Saint. Good for him for=20 getting his work on the market. It does result in a few typos a bigger=20 publisher would have caught, but nothing major. It isn=81ft something that= =20 Signature would publish, and there is probably too much, "questionable=20 material" (a good High Priest threatening his daughter with a starting=20 pistol, acceptance of a grandmother living in sin, talk of how righteous=20 parents can scare a daughter out of the Church, etc.) for Deseret Books to= =20 publish. It is the kind of thing that Aspen would publish if they were=20 still actively publishing. Most of all, I think the book does a great job at showing us a=20 disintegrating marriage. My brother went through a similar experience,=20 which probably why the novel resonated so well with me. Another powerful=20 voice has been added to the small chorus of good LDS writers, hooray. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at=20 http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Signaturi Date: 20 Oct 2000 08:54:49 -0600 >>> daryoung@yahoo.com 10/19/00 03:06PM >>> > >I had thought of Signature as just like any other >publisher (except those which are obviously >Church-oriented such as Deseret Book and Covenant):=20 >simply an independent press, one that may publish >things of which I do not approve or even which I think >are critical of my beliefs, but also which publishes >things that support my beliefs. =20 Your understanding is correct. The term "Signaturi" was=20 coined by William Hamblin of FARMS in the context of a=20 debate over Book of Mormon historicity. Signature was=20 unfairly demonized because it published one book that=20 figured prominently in the debate. The term probably would=20 have faded from currency, if not for a divisive and oft-cited=20 essay by John Redelfs, available at=20 http://home.att.net/~jredelfs/signatur.html MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Signaturi Date: 20 Oct 2000 09:19:35 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 3:06 PM > Rex Goode says, "But Thom, wouldn't that make me one > of the Signaturi? :)" And many others make similar > hints occasionally. > > Forgive my ignorance. I am new (newer than I thought, > I'm discovering) to the Mormon literature community. > But I have a question about something that everyone > else seems to already understand but never states out > loud: what does "being published by Signature" mean? In certain circles, Signature books are viewed as anti-Mormon. > one that may publish > things of which I do not approve or even which I think > are critical of my beliefs, but also which publishes > things that support my beliefs. This is a more correct definition of what Signature actually is. > I am sensing, however, that there more to Signature's > reputation than just being independent. There seems > to be a label that is applied when a person publishes > with Signature. Is such a choice symbolic of a > person's "throwing in" with some sort of a political > camp or admitting to considering him- or herself on > the "outside" of Mormon culture? In my view, the "bad rap" of Signature is entirely due to anti-Intellectual forces in the Church who confuse heterodoxy with heresy. > As someone who hopes to be working within the LDS > publishing community at some point in my life, I need > to be aware of any connotations that come with a > certain name. Please, someone, be brave and state it > straight out. I catch the hints but I'd like to hear > it straight. Signaure has published books that seem to call into question certain long-held beliefs of the Church. For instance, _New Approaches to the Book of Mormon_ is a collection of essays that posit the idea that the BofM is entirely a nineteenth century concoction of Joseph Smith. They go toe-to-toe with the venerable Hugh Nibley on some of his essays. Another controversial book they published was by B.H. Roberts, a collection of never-before published essays that ask serious questions about the origin of the Book of Mormon. Signature's _Perculiar People_ is a collection of essays and case histories of LDS gay men and women, some of whom make choices with their life that are not approved by current Church teachings. That should be enough examples to show the controversial nature of some of Signature's publications. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 20 Oct 2000 10:30:13 -0600 > Christ did not listen to the music we do. The people he knew might not have > liked our music at all, because it would have been very foreign to them. > The music at Christ's time would have been highly rhythmic, perhaps even Indeed and what did He listen to prior to his mortal ministry and what does He listen to now? How does He judge music, what are His tastes, does He judge it from His time on earth or does He take the whole spectrum of premortal, mortal and postmortal existence. Would He be considered the perfect judge of music, literature and art? What does He read, what theatre does He enjoy most or approve? Where does He fit in with this argument at all, does He have a role in our artist creations, decisions, ruminations, rumblings, stumblings and masterpieces? Does He speak through only great art or literature or can he speak through a seemingly insipid song or the different rhythm of Ghana. Can we see Him in Picasso's art or my nephew's scribble wishing me a Happy Birthday? Where does Christ exist in all of this? Is that a good question to ask ourselves or am I really off base her and looking at the outfield instead of to home. Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 20 Oct 2000 10:33:18 -0600 >But in nothing do we show our imperial stripe more clearly than in our >music. I agree with the tenor of this post. The reality of it struck me forcibly when I was working at the MTC editing culture and grammar texts. One writer had spent several paragraphs explaining that we should not inflict our culture on other peoples along with the gospel--then proceeded to state that these Polynesian people needed to learn how to hold a "proper" sacrament meeting without the types of music they wanted to use. Apparently a "proper" sacrament meeting involves only lugubrious hymns accompanied by an organ, and never music in praise of God that involves some sort of drum in the background and people standing and swaying with the music. One bit of culture shock I experienced when I joined the LDS church was the lack of the more, um, spritely kinds of hymns I'd grown up with as a Baptist. It looks as though the Mormons adopted the dour Methodist hymns, but scorned what I learned to call "gospel music." I still miss "Bringing in the Sheaves" and "I Was Sinking Deep in Sin" and "Praise Him, Praise Him, Jesus Our Blessed Redeemer." The last time I visited my mom's Baptist church, they sang a hymn about Jesus that made me sob with emotion. I still think that feeling deep emotion about the Savior is good, not bad. To be fair, we sang a hymn last Sunday to close sacrament meeting that also made me cry. But I really have no interest in hymns about the mountains of Utah. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: [AML] Re: Signaturi? Date: 20 Oct 2000 12:54:30 -0700 (PDT) First, Dave Hansen, to your question, I'm still a practicing lawyer, but refer to myself often as a "repentant" (as if it were a sin), or "recovering" (as if it were a disease). So, So I'm still in the fraternity, I just can't figure out anything better to do. I'm trying to write a legal thriller spoof, something like _Good and Valuable Consideration_, or _Death and Taxes_, maybe about an anti-Grisham hero, a tax attorney who stumbles onto a murder plot. Second, Darlene Young wrote: <> My book _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ was published by Signature Books. I don't view myself as any special kind of Mormon, inside or outside, unless you put me into the category of "Weird Mormon," but that'd be redundant. Signature appeared to me at the time to be the only viable publisher of humorous essays originally published on AML-List. I have appreciated their assistance. I will say, however, that the Signature "reputation" has kept my book out of your average Mormon bookstore. I can't even get the local Atlanta Mormon bookstore to carry it! I think my book is harmless. There's no agenda. Other publications by Signature are equally as harmless. Take, for instance, Ann Edwards Cannon's _What's a Mother to Do?_, also published by Signature Books. She's not some kind of an underground operative trying to undermine the LDS faith either. Yet (I assume) because she's known in SLC through her Deseret News column, the "Signature Stimga" doesn't seem to attach to her book in local bookstores. Ed Snow ===== Among best sellers, Barnes & Noble ranks _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ in its top 100 (thousand, that is). Available now at 10% off http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD&mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Re: Proverb Query (Compilation) Date: 20 Oct 2000 15:12:48 -0500 The familiar proverb (Beware of Greeks bearing gifts) probably evolved from Virgil's warning in the _Aeneid_: Equo ne credite, Teucri. Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentis. (Do not trust the horse, Trojans. Whatever it is, I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts.) Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com >From Chantaclair@chantaclair.com Thu Oct 19 11:25:11 2000 Fear the Greeks bearing gifts. 19 century proverb. Virgil - equo ne credite, Teucri, Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferente. Do not trust the hourse, Trojans. Whatever it is, I fear teh greeks even when they brig gifts. Aeneid bk 2 Marsha > Here in Brazil we use to say when we receive a gift we don=B4t like: This is the gift of a Greek... Example: Your daughter is going to complete 3 years old and your cousin gives her a little dog ( a poodle, for example)...and you discover that you=B4ll have to spend about U$50 a month to take care of the dog... :-))) Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br Brazil - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 20 Oct 2000 11:05:43 -0600 What a delightful post from Todd Robert Peterson. Two things I particularly liked: he acknowledged the (should be screamingly obvious but always-ignored) truth that other traditions have incredible musical traditions that we Mormons don't experience. I know the standard Church argument is that we don't want to call attention to ourselves by brilliant performance in our services but that has always fallen short for me. If we really ARE a world church (duh, are we?), then other musical traditions are part of our circle, no? The other is the reality that Christ came through a VERY different culture. I always say that most Mormons, as westernly enculturated as we are, would be stunned, shocked, overwhelmed and maybe a little displeased if we understood how totally Jewish Jesus was (I say displeased because many of the cultural practices are so very different--things we might look down on). Of course as a middle-eastern dancer who responds with deep soul to Gabriel's "Passion Sources" I was particularly pleased that Peterson mentioned that recording. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Signaturi (was: Alliances) Date: 20 Oct 2000 14:52:45 EDT I just want to indicate that I don't believe that Signature Books is anything bad, or that being published by them would not be an honor, or that whatever reputation they might have is deserved. I've read John Redelfs' essay on the subject and could not speak to it either way, because I have no experience with them. I used the term "Signaturi" in my opening remark because I knew that there would be people who would find it amusing, but I did neglect to remember that some might not get the reference. I apologize for the confusion that caused. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marie Knowlton" Subject: [AML] Playwriting Contest Date: 20 Oct 2000 12:11:27 MDT To all interested parties: VIP Arts and the Villa Playhouse Theatre are sponsoring a playwriting contest. It is open to anyone, and there is no limit on individual submissions. No entrance fee. Plays must be 2 hours or less in running length, including intermission. Pages should be numbered. The author's name should appear only on a cover sheet in a separate envelope. Each entry should be mailed separately. Include SASE if you wish script returned. Plays must be suitable for family audiences. Winners will be given a staged reading and considered for production. Deadline: Dec. 31, 2000. Send to: Bill or Marilyn Brown or Marie Knowlton, Villa Playhouse Theatre, 254 S. Main St., Springville, UT 84663. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 20 Oct 2000 15:14:59 -0600 Dave Hanson wrote: >If you don't like the institution's culture, that's a separate issue. = >IMO, I truly believe that the church wants to support the best >artists = out there.) =20 I don't think this is at all true. I think that the Church wants to = support talented artists who do certain kinds of art. I don't think that = the Church, as an institution, feels any obligation to support the work of = all talented LDS artists. Nor, IMO, ought it to. The Church just put a great deal of time and money into the construction = of a performing arts center. That's, at least in part, what the new = Conference center (which my students call the Supernacle) is; a center for = the performing arts. But I think that the kinds of art we're going to see = in there are going to be pretty narrow in focus. We're going to see films = like Testaments or Legacy, films that immediately and directly portray = specifically religious subjects in a positive way. A fine film like God's = Army, which generally portrays missionaries in a positive way, but which = also depicts missionaries losing their testimonies, or engaged in youthful = hijinks, will probably not find a home in the Conference Center. And = that's okay. Richard Dutcher will and should continue to make his films = too. As should the rest of us write our novels or plays or poetry, or = compose our symphonies. =20 At the Conference Center, we're going to hear classical music in excellent = performances, but only some works by some composers. We're going to see = some theatre, but generally we're going to see pageant-style theatre, that = glosses over issues that some might regard as controversial, and which = shows our ancestors or church leaders in a completely positive fashion.=20 There's nothing wrong with any of this, IMO. There are lots of very = successful LDS artists who are probably incapable of writing that kind of = material. I'm pretty sure I'm one of them. But that doesn't mean that = I'm a borderline apostate, nor does it mean that those artists who are = capable of creating Church-appropriate art are automatically sentimental, = or shallow, or without substance. It simply means that the Church wants = to support art that accomplishes a few very specific purposes. And those = of us for whom those specific purposes are uncongenial to our talents and = temperment will continue to find venues for our work that aren't directly = funded by the Church. =20 Now, in addition to venues, such as the conference center, which are = directly funded by the Church, there also exists something we call Mormon = culture. Mormons do tend to share certain attitudes and social customs, = and Mormonism is also a culture. That culture exists outside the = institutional Church, and it also exists, to a certain degree, outside the = teachings of the Gospel. Within that culture, there are venues for = artists, and opportunities for artists, and material for artists. I = believe that the collision between Mormon culture, broadly described, and = the actual belief system of Mormonism is endlessly fascinating, and I find = within that collision fruitful material for an artist. And so I write = about it. But the sorts of works I write aren't appropriate for a venue = like the Conference Center. So I don't write for the Church. (But the = irony is that I can only afford to write what I write because I do draw a = paycheck from the Church. I teach at BYU.)=20 I don't see anything wrong with any of this. Does the Church support = lawyers? Well, the Church employs lawyers, I gather. But what does that = say about those active LDS attorneys who have never in their lives = represented the Church in their practice? Absolutely nothing. The Church = only asks, I suppose, that those attorneys conduct themselves with = integrity, fulfill their callings, pay their tithing, support their = families, and so on. So it is with artists. Those few artists who are = needed to do what the Church feels needs doing find employment with the = Church. And the rest of are also expected to do good in the world. =20 Now, as it happens, I don't much care for the kinds of art that we're = likely to see in the Conference Center. Lots of other people do like that = kind of art, and good for them. I probably won't spend much time up = there. So what? Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Steve Covey Date: 20 Oct 2000 15:26:33 -0600 First of all, can I say how delighted I am to read Renato's posts. I'm so = grateful for this amazing technology that makes the world so much smaller. = =20 What do critics think of Steve Covey? Depends on the critics. I would = say that some critics believe that Covey serves a valuable function, in = that he has discovered principles that enable people to live happier and = more productive lives. And other critics would argue that Covey greatly = oversimplifies the complexities of modern life, and that the principles he = teaches don't work for everyone. =20 In the US, there are lots of books like Covey's; what we call self-help = books. Are there similar books in Brazil? Self-help books try to help = people work more productively, organize their time more efficiently, grow = closer in their relationships, strengthen family ties, and so on. In a = typical US bookstore, the 'self-help' section is usually the largest = section of the store. Some people really like self-help books, and read = quite a few of them. Other people (I'll confess that I'm one) don't like = self-help books at all, and avoid them at all costs. I understand that = Covey is generally regarded as one of the best self-help authors in the = US. So the reaction of critics to his books depends on how those critics = feel about self-help books generally. And a guy like me isn't likely to = find Covey any more valuable than Tony Robbins or Deepac Chopra or any of = the rest of them. None of which, I must confess, I've ever read. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: [AML] Wanted: Country Humor Date: 20 Oct 2000 09:43:29 EDT I got a call Sat. from a man in Washington State who is starting a publishing company to feature humorous short stories and poems. He wants: "Country humor with good writing." He will soon have his first book published and is seeking new and fresh material for other volumes. You will know how "serious" he is when you read the name of his publishing company. Even Oprah has shown interest. The short stories can be fiction or nonfiction. If you wish your mss read and considered, send them to: Brian Pettijohn Brassus River Pie & Railroad Publishing Company. 518 S. Liberty Port Angela, WA. 98362 E-mail. Children@olypen.com ph. 360-417-5188 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Signaturi Date: 20 Oct 2000 19:30:30 -0200 > I think the publishing companies don=B4t have personality...or better they have Marketing Plans for different markets...Popular Books, Best Sellers, Classic, Technical Books,,,and others... There is that kind of company that only publishes pearls...and other trash...But they only publish because there is a market for the product... Renato RIGO - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 20 Oct 2000 17:07:02 -0400 Barbara Hume wrote: > >But in nothing do we show our imperial stripe more clearly than in our > >music. > > I agree with the tenor of this post. Must our humor be so bass? And don't tell me not to fret, because I'm high-strung to begin with and all keyed up over this. And by the way, does anyone subscribe to LDS Gems? About one day after I make a post on this list referencing Boyd K's piano keyboard/gospel analogy, Gems posts his original blurb. Who's eavesdropping? Fess up--we don't want to all have to someday report to the STM Committee. And lest I be filed away as a dissident, let me say that some of my most favorite songs in the world are in the LDS Hymnal. Someone already mentioned "Abide With Me," which tingles my spine all the time, but my "Most Favorite" vote has to go to "Lead Kindly Light." To my low tastes, a more beautiful song than this does not exist. Tony Markham (please amend this to my permanent file deep in HQ) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Signaturi Date: 20 Oct 2000 15:26:37 -0600 What a delightful post, Marilyn. I love your viewpoint, and wish we could all share in your marvelous . . . savor. :-) Richard Hopkins ----- Original Message ----- > Signature Books is a very classy, astute publishing company. But every publishing company has a personality. One company likes different kinds of books than another. One thing about Signature is that they are VERY CAREFUL with what they print, and they have authors cut and trim, sometimes in half, and they do beautiful books--with fine paper. And they are willing to be "controversial." Yes, they are high class--probably our most high class publisher in this area. (Perhaps except for Peregrine Smith in Layton, which is now totally gift books, and national). But they would not do a "Mormonish" book like Des. Book publishes, or a racy western novel, like Cedar Fort. Or romance like Covenant, or perhaps a Sci Fi like Cornerstone, etc. > > The publishing spectrum is as varied as the color of peoples' skin, and with different tastes. I love it that way. I "celebrate the differences." But it would be easy for any of us to talk about being published by Signature as "signaturi" as though there is some "higher" class there. It all depends on what you are and how willing you are to be yourself without "climbing" the "publishing ladder." There are those of us content to lie low around on the ground and look crystalized, like Salt Press. > > With aplomb! Marilyn Brown (And thanks to Darlene for FABULOUS notes for the AML!) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 20 Oct 2000 16:16:14 -0600 Eileen asked this question: > Does He speak through only great art or literature or > can he speak through a seemingly insipid > song or the different rhythm of Ghana. Yes, He does. At least, according to my experience he does. In preface to describing my experience let me say how uncomfortable I am with artist's claiming divine guidence in creating their art. Not that I think that it doesn't happen, or that an artist isn't allowed to testify to such. What makes me uncomfortable is when an artist tries to trade on that testimony. I hate the implication that if I don't like a particular work of art then I am not in tune with the spirit. Hogwash. Now, what follows is meant to be simple testimony ... not an endorsement of any kind. Back in the bygone days of the eighties Arlen Card and I wrote several songs together and compiled them on a cassette and called it "City of Peace." With some artistic guidence and financial support from Arlen's brother, Russ, it was meant to be a commercial venture, but it didn't get much further than having a few hundred cassettes made and stored in Russ's garage. The idea behind this venture was Russ's; to do a kind of Alan Parsons type concept album kind of thing, but with a decidedly LDS theme, which Russ chose: The building of the New Jerusalem. I wrote the lyrics and Arlen wrote the music. Arlen's concept, musically, was that each song -- while lyrically tied to the New Jerusalem theme -- would be composed in a different style of music. So, we wound up with a kind of 70's style progressive rock opening which was followed by an R & B tune, a bluesy love duet, a lullabye, another rock number with driving rhythm and power chords, an instrumental jazz number, a ballad and a choral anthem. What all that turned out to be is a nifty little souvenir to show our kids later in life when they think we never did anything cool. Since the cassette was dead in the water I asked Russ and Arlen if they thought it was a good idea for me to try to write a play around these songs. I was given carte blanch and I set about writing the beast with no backs. I mean, seriously, this is not -- I repeat, NOT -- how you write a play. For instance, I arbitrarily decided to leave all the songs in the order that they appeared on the cassette. The opening and closing tunes were organically placed, but the rest of them were not. What kind of lame-brain does something like that? There were no characters or overarching story in these songs. Indeed, a couple of them hardly had anything to do with the theme -- the new city of peace. I spent several evenings strolling the neighborhood with my walkman saturating my brain with those songs, trying to find characters and a story. When I finally did have a script (having added only two new songs because that's all Arlen had time for -- see how these decisions are made?) I showed it to Charles Whitman at BYU and he became interested in directing it for the school. There were a few blockades in our way but as we got closer to them they each seemed to jump out of the road and we proceeded on. In fact, there were several times in the writing and producing processes of creating this show that I felt little nudges from outside myself. Many of us involved with the show felt like it needed to happen. We didn't know why it needed to happen, but it did. So it happened. In the Fall of 1989 it happened. And it was a lousy play. Seriously. I couldn't even stand to watch it after awhile. Most of my friends in the theatre department at BYU avoided me at all costs. They couldn't stand the idea of either lying through their hats or telling me the painful truth, so they did neither. And yet ... And yet some people were quite moved by it. Some people came to the show again and again, bringing different friends or family members each time. Five years later, while attending the BYU science fiction and fantasy symposium some guy caught a glimpse of my name tag and said, "J. Scott Bronson. You wrote 'City of Peace,' right?" "Uh, yeah." "That play changed my life. Thank you." So, yes, he can speak through a seemingly insipid song ... or play ... or ... anything at all. I'm just grateful that I haven't felt any nudges toward reviving "City of Peace." J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 20 Oct 2000 17:20:25 -0600 Dave Hansen: > As I am so close to the institutional church's music and art, I am a > little sensitive to comments made that we should "take our culture > back." If the institutional church does not set the culture, then > what is the culture? If you separate the culture from the church > you have nothing IMO. I don't follow you there. Most cultural practices and procedures are based on tradition. Some traditions are good, some traditions are bad. The Church adheres to doctrine, not tradition. In fact, the Church often sends out memos to the unit leaders with directions to change or avoid certain traditional practices in the church. It wasn't that many years ago that women were not allowed to pray in Sacrament meeting. That tradition has been replaced with another -- husband and wife team prayers. That's one the Church is also trying to eradicate. Several years ago, when I was in a position of ward leadership we got one of those periodic addenda to the General Handbook of Instructions which had a little note in it about allowing other members of the ward to pray in sacrament meeting, like single sisters and widowers and youth and such. So, whenever someone from the bishopric stops to ask my wife and I if we'll pray I always say, one of us will. A few months ago Lynne and I were asked to speak in Sacrament meeting. I said, sure, if I can go first. Just having Lynne second on the program was disturbing enough to keep most of the ward awake. Another example: There is a cultural bias among Mormons against the notion of biological evolution. And yet, the Church will take no doctrinal stand on the issue. One day I was teaching a room full of teachers, impressionable young men, about the scriptures, and how the answers to many of life's questions can be found there. For instance, to me, the seeming disparity between observable natural processes and the description of creation in the Bible was troubling, so I sought out information in both camps to help me dissolve the disparity, and in the scriptures I found the help I needed. I explained to the boys that I believed in evolution based on my studies of the scriptures but that didn't necessarily mean that they had to believe along with me. The point of the lesson was that they could go to the scriptures to get answers to their questions. THEIR questions. My point was and is that the real truth about some things may not be knowable right now, but some form of the truth for the individuals who need to have it can be had ... for that individual. I was released as the teacher of the teachers. Not because I had preached any false doctrines -- I made it very clear that my belief was my belief and that the Church had no official opinion on the matter -- no false doctrines in that. But I was outta there. Because of tradition. Cultural bias. These examples represent Meetinghouse Culture. The Mormon culture, obviously, extends further than that. Only doctrinal verities are "set" by the Church. Cultural verities develop around what people think they are supposed to think, or what their parents thought, or what feels comfortable to them ... that kind of thing. I know, for instance, that the Church does not encourage racial discrimination, and yet, I run into it all the time around here in the heart of Zion. The Church has not set that cultural standard for us. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] AML List Date: 20 Oct 2000 19:54:40 -0200 As a member of The Chuch I decided to subscribe the list to improve my English (that isn=B4t so good as my Portughese) and to change experiences with other members... Am I the only foreigner in this list? Is there an internal list from Literature students of BYU university? Renato Rigo __________________________________________________________________________ Todo brasileiro tem direito a um e-mail gr=E1tis http://www.bol.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 20 Oct 2000 17:38:43 -0600 > But in nothing do we show our imperial stripe more clearly than in > our music. > > "Good music" to a significant body of the church is what they hear > in church, or on the spoken word, or during conference. Our > hymns DO have some fine lyrics, but the music is generally horrible > except for the tunes which we have lifted from the folk traditions of > other countries, which are European. > And it is these hymns that we foist off on other cultures. Why, for > example, do we, in the States never hear hymns based on the folk > melodies of Ghana, or the Hopi, or the Central and South > Americans? I'll tell you why? Because it would creep most > middle-class Americans out. I suppose it could be argued that God asked Emma to put together a hymnal in that time and in that place because those are the kinds of songs he wanted us to sing. I won't argue it. But I think it could be argued. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 21 Oct 2000 01:46:29 -0400 At 06:12 PM 10/17/2000 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/17/00 4:15:31 PM Central Daylight Time, >markhata@delhi.edu writes: > ><< > I used to think it was just me, but maybe it's just me and Chris. > > Tony Markham > > >> >It is you and Chris and me, and a lot of people. I tangled with the Music >Committee a few months ago by letter. I got back a predictable all is well >when we have hymns of the restoration letter. >It is making sacrament music something to barely endure. >Violet Kimball There is an old Puritan prayer that I remember from some obscure source that begins something like " Lord I thank thee that I am not like these others..." . At risk of being identified as insufferably self righteous those words come to mind again. I thoroughly enjoy the music of Sacrament meetings and I like most of the hymns. I am not totally inexperienced with music. I supported myself, pre-mission, singing in saloons with a band. I did a turn as a radio DJ, and have sung with a variety of choirs, done an opera or two and have directed nine musical plays. (Book musicals mostly, of type that drives Eric up the wall) I have occasional reservations about some hymns. The poetry in _I Believe in Christ_ is almost unbelievable awkward, and as an occasional chorister (yeah, one of those, and I am High Council advisor to the Stake Music Director-Committee-etc.), I tended not to select this for the congregation. When our stake formed a temple choir for the dedication of the South Carolina Temple, I whined a bit because there is very little logical flow from one thought to another and I had a terrible time memorizing the words and sequencing the stanzas (though my memory is so bad, that too is not uncommon). Then at the dedication, I stood within six inches of Pres. Hinckley when we sang the song, and it was instantly evident that he was deeply moved-- as, strangely enough, was I. Put together with the tune, I now find each experience with the song a great one. _Called to Serve_ is a monster to sing, but singing it with the rest of the missionaries in the Mission home (I am wayyy pre-MTC) was such a special experience that it still moves me. I do find myself irritated and troubled when I come back to the west and hear many of the wards sing at a mumble, and I too dislike the new arrangements of many songs in the hymn book (I am a bass, and they killed all the good bass parts, though, when singing parts in the congregation, I just go ahead and sing the old arrangements.) I think one of the saddest things about the consolidated program is the elimination of the practice song in which a chorister could get right down into the congregation and teach the songs, harmonies, and even enthusiasm (I have been known to tell a congregation that if I spotted anyone not singing, I would come down, stand next to that person and stay there till he/she did sing. If that didn't work -I would say- the next penalty for not singing would be that I sit in the offender's lap. You would understand the gravity of that threat if you could see my sitter). That said, I have a stack of MoTab albums which I play often-especially in the Christmas season. I have one recording which no one else seems to have of the MoTab singing Beetoven's Ninth and it is breathtaking. (Among my very favorite choral works is the Ninth, and _Carmina Burana_-- I think I would kill for a MoTab _Carmina Burana_ with a good orchestra.). I don't have the opportunity to hear _Music and the Spoken Word_ unless it is conference Sunday or it just happens along on the Odessy channel, but I always enjoy it. As far as that is concerned, I am often moved to tears (emotional-not grief) by the music in Sacrament Meeting. I like the Utah mountain songs. I have never understood the need some have for trying to eliminate the pioneer traditions and experience. To me it is like a Jew denigrating the Masada. Those things which created the culture enrich it even as it changes. I do think it will change. I remember a brother who had been to Nigeria talking to one of our youth groups about how the Nigerians had translated many of the hymns to drum and percussion accompaniment, then one of the apostles came to visit and shortly thereafter instructions came down to use the piano. This works for a while but our culture will change in time to incorporate many other cultures without denying the "one that brung us". Our last Stake President lives in a home ward that has a large Polynesian contigent. He spent much enegy trying to eliminate the tendency of the Polynesians to begin talks with "Aloha" to which the others would all reply "Aloha". He was their Bishop for three years and Stake President for eight, but they still do it (expecially if he is not present). Having said all that, I confess that the one act for which I am best known in our stake is having concluded an Easter sermon on one of my High Council visits by singing _Were You There When They Crucified My Lord?_. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 21 Oct 2000 00:33:28 -0600 Marilyn & William Brown wrote: > But I don't begrudge my fellow Mormons their "middle classdom." (Which I just call Middle American culture--middle of the country, middle of the stream, middle of life--the happy family cult) When push comes to shove, I don't think it's so much that any of us begrudge anyone their "middle classdom" in music, literature, or any art, as that we resent the occasional intimation that we're suspect because we are disinterested in it. I am reminded of an experience the owner of my recording studio had. He produced a CD of church hymns with his own unique and nontraditional arrangements. One day a gentlemen got in touch with him and scolded him for not using the "approved" arrangements in the hymnal. The issue to this gentleman wasn't that he disliked the new arrangements and preferred the hymnal's versions. The issue was that the studio owner violated some Gospel principle for composing his own arrangements. _That's_ the sort of thing I'm talking about. At worst, we "elitist" artists accuse the "unwashed masses" in the church of aesthetic naivety and representing important things in simplistic terms because their tastes don't coincide with ours. But they all to often accuse us of something approaching immorality because our tastes don't coincide with theirs. That's the thing irritates me the most about this little feud going on in LDS culture. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 21 Oct 2000 00:50:12 -0600 David Hansen wrote: > As I am so close to the institutional church's music and art, > I am a little sensitive to comments made that we should "take > our culture back." If the institutional church does not set > the culture, then what is the culture? If you seperate the > culture from the church you have nothing IMO. I don't think an institution _can_ set a culture. An institution may attempt to impose a culture with varying degrees of success, but ultimately a culture is what the people create collectively. Therefore, LDS culture is what LDS members create, not the church as an institution. If it appears that the institution is setting the culture, I believe it's only because the people within the culture put great stock in what the institution says, therefore the power of that institution to impose a culture is great. But it all boils down to what the people within the culture are willing to accept. The interesting thing is that I don't think the church is trying to impose a culture per se. They're trying to promote righteous living, but any cultural influence the institution wields I believe is incidental to that main goal and mostly unintended. Those times when it appears that the institution is trying to influence the culture I think are examples of when Gospel principles and LDS culture are being confused in someone's mind. > IMO, I truly believe that the church wants to support the best artists out there. I'd be interested in hearing why you think that. My impression is that the church tries to stay neutral about artists, except those that are directly commissioned by the church to produce something. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Steve Covey Date: 21 Oct 2000 10:28:06 -0600 on 10/20/00 4:01 AM, renatorigo at renatorigo@bol.com.br wrote: > Here in Brazil, the best seller Mormon books are the > books of Steve Covey, The Book of Mormon, and other > scriptures...in this order. In his books he introduces > Mormon doctrine about family, work, health, money, > hapiness without saying this is Mormon doctrine....I > really loved his books.. > What=B4s the opinion of american critics about Covey=B4s > books? If you ask Covey himself, he does not think he is teaching mormon doctrine. Unless basic principles like gravity are considered exclusively Mormon doctrine. Though they may be helpful concepts, there is nothing saving in sharpening the saw, seeing the end from the beginning, seeking first to understand, etc. FWIW, S. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] QVP, New Utah Publisher? Date: 21 Oct 2000 20:19:14 -0600 Do you know anything about this publisher? A friend contacted me with this request for more information, and I've never heard of them. >>a publishing company _Quiet Vision Publishing_ QVP. They are out of >>Sandy, Utah, and have a web site publishing business >>(www.qvision.net). Mostly it looks like they do books on demand, of >>out of print titles. The Managing Editor, John Schaeffer, said that >>they have implemented a new program to publish promising authors. >>The submissions page on their site is under construction, so I do >>not know about pay etc. yet, other than they offer an advance and >>publish in electronic as well as several print formats.<< Any help or information you can give would be greatly appreciated. Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Mormon Science Fiction Authors Date: 21 Oct 2000 17:51:56 EDT The Dallas Morning News ran a two page feature in today's (10/21) religion section about LDS authors and their influence in writing science fiction. It included a photograph of and an interview with Orson Scott Card. The article noted the disproportionately larger number of LDS authors in relation to overall church membership, as compared with other religions, and it discussed some of the Church's beliefs that, when also held by the author, helped to span the gap into otherworld issues SF writers cover. I though it was an interesting article. Unfortunately, I was in another town when I read it, the paper didn't belong to me, I wasn't even smart enough to write down the author's name, and I don't think we have copyright permission to post it to the list anyway. However, the paper has a web site and I think the article would be there. (I can't access the web from home, either -- yet. But when I get to work again on Monday ... ) Someone might want to snag it and give a better excerpt or review. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] Contacting Lee Nelson Date: 22 Oct 2000 05:41:15 GMT Folks, I'm trying to locate Lee Nelson, who published so many books on=20= Mormon history. His publisher is Council Press. I can't find any=20 listing on the Internet. Does anyone know how to reach him by e-mail? Thanks. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Bennion Subject: [AML] Symposium at UVSC Date: 22 Oct 2000 20:44:36 -0600 Gene asked me to forward this. Please forward this to the AML-list and any others who may be interested. Dear friend: The first event sponsored by the NEH Grant to explore Mormon Studies at UVSC will be a Symposium on Service and Learning next Tuesday, Oct. 24, featuring Elder Marion D. Hanks. Following is the schedule. Please come and invite your friends. Eugene England Symposium on Service and Learning The Center for the Study of Ethics--Program in Religious Studies Utah Valley State College Ragan Theater in the Student Center Tuesday, October 24, 2000 8:30-9:15 A. M. "Mindsets for Changing the World" Warner P. Woodworth Professor of Organizational Leadership and Strategy Brigham Young University Author of books on eliminating poverty through intelligent service. Promoter and organizer of projects to achieve that end, such as the Ouelessebougou-Utah Alliance for providing wells and schools in West Africa and Enterprise Mentors International for providing micro-credit and entrepreneurial skills. 9:15-9:50 A. M. "Teaching Socially Responsive Knowledge and Action" Irene Fisher Founding Director, The Lowell Bennion Community Service Center, The University of Utah Tireless advocate and organizer of student opportunities to learn through service, especially in the Salt Lake and other Utah communities. Received UVSC's Excellence in Ethics Award in 1995. 10:00-11:15 A. M. "Service and Salvation" Elder Marion D. Hanks General Authority Emeritus The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Well-known advocate of local and international service as essential to religious living who participates himself in the projects he helps organize and direct, such as the Ouelessebougou-Utah Alliance and Enterprise Mentors International. 11:30-12:45 A. M. Panel:"Religious, Ethical, and Other Motivations for Service" Moderator, Eugene England. With visiting speakers, Irene Fisher, Warner Woodworth, and Elder Marion D. Hanks, plus UVSC faculty who have been involved in various service learning projects: Laura Hamblin, Associate Professor of English; Sam Rushforth, Dean of Natural Sciences; and Carolyn Johnson, Director of Service Learning. This Symposium is funded in part through a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities in support of Mormon Studies, and all sessions are free and open to the public. ________________ Professor John Bennion 3117 JKHB English Department Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602-6280 Tel: (801) 378-3419 Fax: (801) 378-4705 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] Mormon Science Fiction Authors (Dallas Morning News) Date: 23 Oct 2000 09:36:35 -0600 The Dallas Morning News has an article about Mormons writing science fiction. It can be accessed at http://www.dallasnews.com/religion/195918_scifi_21rel.AR.html The newspaper article came out Saturday, October 21, 2000. Front page of the religion section, the photograph accompanying the story, with big print opening paragraphs, takes up most of the page. Inside, there are two photos of OSC. [Marny Parkin] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean FH Macy Subject: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 22 Oct 2000 12:51:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------07724CC91A24057D38C49D82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just got a great movie review from my niece who is apparently caught up in the college mentality at BYU. Or maybe I'm just a prude. Funny thing about the Church and movies. The policy is to stay away from "R" rated movies so a movie rated PG13 is okay. Right? What most LDS people fail to realize is that it's not the rating that is dangerous, it's what is in the movie that earns the rating that is. What Lies Beneath somehow made it through the "R" rating. Bribery I guess, because any film gets an "R" rating if the language contains at least one "F--- word. They missed this one. Basically the Church wants members to stay clear of movies that display heavy sex/nudity, profanity, blood & guts violence, bad attitudes, dysfunctional family situations and sensuality. Alcohol/Drugs - Mild Blood/Gore - Heavy Disrespectful/Bad Attitude - Extreme Frightening/Tense Scenes - Extreme Guns/Weapons - None Imitative Behavior - Mild Jump Scenes - Extreme Music (Scary/Tense) - Extreme Music (Inappropriate) - None Profanity - Heavy Sex/Nudity - Heavy Smoking - None Tense Family Scenes - Heavy Topics To Talk About - Moderate Violence - Heavy No, thanks. (www.screenit.com - not a Church affiliate) --------------07724CC91A24057D38C49D82 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="deanmacy.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Dean FH Macy Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="deanmacy.vcf" begin:vcard n:-"Many people will walk in and out of your life, but;- only true friends will leave footprints in your heart." tel;pager:FILM: www.mp3.com/stations/one_christmas_eve tel;fax:603 924-4412 tel;home:603 924-4409 tel;work:603 924-4412 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.newenglandtalent.org org:New England Talent, Ltd.;Child Artist Management version:2.1 email;internet:deanmacy@monad.net title:President and CEO note:SPECIALIZING IN THE MANAGEMENT OF EXCEPTIONAL CHILDREN IN VOCAL MUSIC adr;quoted-printable:;;14 Granite Street - =0D=0AStudio Five;Peterborough;New Hampshire;03458-1413;USA fn:Dean FH Macy, Lit.D. end:vcard --------------07724CC91A24057D38C49D82-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: [AML] Wordcraft Writing List Date: 22 Oct 2000 19:27:56 GMT I just wanted to let everyone know of a great LDS writing list called Wordcraft. It tends to focus very much on the process of writing. We are have some great fun doing some fiction exercises and critiques. For those interested visit this link: http://www.topica.com/lists/wordcraft/prefs/info.html Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] E-books Date: 23 Oct 2000 18:42:31 -0200 What do you think about the e-books revolution into the publishing market? Here in Brazil we have e-publishers that works in this way: 1. You register yourself as a writer and send a work of yours (e-book) to the publisher. 2. Then company read your work and decide if it=B4s going to put or not your work in its site. 3. After putting the book in the site , the e-book will be avaible for download all over the world and people will pay a low price for the book...The value is divided between the publisher and the writer... 4. There=B4s no initial investment and you can first create a best seller on the web and after in the conventional bookstores... Do you have this in the US? Renato renatorigo@ig.com.br __________________________________________________________________________ Todo brasileiro tem direito a um e-mail gr=E1tis http://www.bol.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 23 Oct 2000 15:55:59 -0600 (MDT) > > But in nothing do we show our imperial stripe more clearly than in > > our music. > > > > "Good music" to a significant body of the church is what they hear > > in church, or on the spoken word, or during conference. Our > > hymns DO have some fine lyrics, but the music is generally horrible > > except for the tunes which we have lifted from the folk traditions of > > other countries, which are European. > > > And it is these hymns that we foist off on other cultures. Why, for > > example, do we, in the States never hear hymns based on the folk > > melodies of Ghana, or the Hopi, or the Central and South > > Americans? I'll tell you why? Because it would creep most > > middle-class Americans out. I can argue one thing - in my experience teaching Laotions on my mission (I went stateside Lao speaking) - their culture has absolutely NO hymn tradition. There are some folk melodies - but no one in their culture has yet written Christian lyrics to them. In fact the only Christian hymn tradition they have is from Catholic and Protestants who traveled there and taught them the "Western hymns" because they had no hymns of their own. Once Laotions start writing their own hymns - I'm sure they can sing them - I've been told of wards in Africa that sing local hymns in church meetings. The main thing the church is doing is giving them what few hymsn we have so that they can have at least something to sing in a Christian/Mormon vein. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hansen Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 23 Oct 2000 16:51:41 -0600 Apparently I need to explain myself a little better in response to Eric, Scott and D. Michael. I believe the "mormon culture" (if it can be defined) is distinctly separate from the institutional church. However, as soon as you define the culture as "mormon" you immediately involve the institutional church. In other words, you can have the church without the culture, but not the culture without the church. (Did I do any better that time? Sigh.) I certainly could quibble with Scott on his examples on tradition v. doctrine. Mormon traditions, IMO, have some doctrinal basis or at least grow out of a doctrinal basis somewhere along the line. (His racism example comes directly out of denying the priesthood to those of African decent (for the most part) for the first 150 years after the Restoration.) While I agree that these "traditions" are not doctrinal per se, those traditions wouldn't exist without the church and its doctrines. My opinion on the church's support of the artists was somewhat of a response to Chris Bigelow's assertion that we should "take the culture back." The implication of Chris' post is that somehow the institutional church dislikes some kinds of art or music, and that we, the members, need to wrest the culture away from the institutional church to promote the "good" or at least "different" music and art. My point was that you can't do that on at least two levels. First, as I've already said, removing the institutional church from any cultural definition of "mormon culture" defines yourself right out of existence. Second, I wanted to point out that the Brethren, and even the institutional church, (whatever that really is) doesn't hate art and music. When I said the church wants to "support" the best artists out there, the word I should have used was "encourage." I agree with Eric that there is plenty of room for all and that the church only gives monetary support to a very few to suit its purposes. I guess my problem is that I've heard too many times the line that the brethren either hate or don't understand art or artists. (Usually its Elder Packer's name which is brought up from that fateful talk at BYU.) While I think that Eric is right that in the Supernacle you won't see controversial church subjects explored in great detail, I don't think you'll see as much overt propaganda as Eric makes it sound. Finally, as for the church supporting lawyers - anybody remember a time when being a lawyer was an excommunicable offense (OK, so it was the 1850's and 60's) and all disputes were resolved by home teachers (their original purpose), and church members were forbidden from voluntarily going to the civil courts of the United States? Ah, those were the days! I hope I made some headway clarifying those views (I'd hate for a lawyer not to be understood!). Dave Hansen with an E! (Eric spelled my name with an O, which I'm sure made his (and my) Danish ancestors turn over in their graves! :)) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 23 Oct 2000 17:31:43 -0700 >Only doctrinal verities are "set" by the Church. Cultural verities >develop around what people think they are supposed to think, or what >their parents thought, or what feels comfortable to them ... that kind of >thing. I like your approach on this, Scott. I find myself asking people where certain of our standard ways of doing things come from, and they can't tell me. Why do we have babies and toddlers in our worship services? Why is there no cry room any more? What's this about taking the sacrament with your right hand? Why do our steeples look like needles? Where in the modern scriptures are these things to be found? I asked my bishop why women are supposed to always wear skirts and dresses no matter what the weather. I asked him if he thought women need to be visibly labeled as "other." He thought about it for a minute and then said, "If you wear a pantsuit to church, I won't throw you out." Good on the bishop--he smoothly put the ball back into my court! Someone told me the other day that Catholic women wear jeans to church. Maybe one day I will wear one of my comfortable outfits to church instead of one that requires pantyhose, and see whether I am instantly released from my Gospel Essentials teaching calling. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Contacting Lee Nelson Date: 23 Oct 2000 18:15:43 -0600 He's with CFI (Cedar Fort, Inc.), which is in Springville, and often lists under Bonneville Books, or something like that. I think he can be reached there, or they can reach him. Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 11:42:14 -0400 A film can also be rated PG-13 with the use of the F-word. And from what I heard, the film stunk. Debbie Brown ----- Original Message ----- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 09:39:15 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 10:51 AM > Basically the Church wants members to stay clear of movies that display > heavy sex/nudity, > profanity, blood & guts violence, bad attitudes, dysfunctional family > situations and > sensuality. > > Alcohol/Drugs - Mild > Blood/Gore - Heavy > Disrespectful/Bad Attitude - Extreme > Frightening/Tense Scenes - Extreme > Guns/Weapons - None > Imitative Behavior - Mild > Jump Scenes - Extreme > Music (Scary/Tense) - Extreme > Music (Inappropriate) - None > Profanity - Heavy > Sex/Nudity - Heavy > Smoking - None > Tense Family Scenes - Heavy > Topics To Talk About - Moderate > Violence - Heavy > > No, thanks. (www.screenit.com - not a Church affiliate) > Not to be too iconoclastic, but I'm afraid I can't agree with the above, and I think it reflects too prudish a view in the Church. What the brethren have specifically asked us to avoid are movies that are "vulgar, degrading, immoral, suggestive or pornographic." I did not find "What Lies Beneath" to fall into any of these categories. There was immorality, but the message of the movie was that immoral behavior exacts a price. Thus, the movie itself was not immoral, but, like many biblical stories, it advocated morality. Were I to adopt the standard set above, I would have no choice but to reject most of the Old Testament. Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 10:01:56 -0600 For the record. No film in which Michelle Pfeiffer stars can ever stink. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 24 Oct 2000 09:48:22 -0600 > Good on the bishop--he smoothly put the ball back into my court! Someone > told me the other day that Catholic women wear jeans to church. Maybe one > day I will wear one of my comfortable outfits to church instead of one that > requires pantyhose, and see whether I am instantly released from my Gospel > Essentials teaching calling. Barbara don't do it! I stopped wearing outfits that require pantyhose 16 years ago and I have not held less than 3 callings at a time....;) I am teaching both Relief Society and Gospel Doctrine right now to pay for my audacity. :) Eileen Stringer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 24 Oct 2000 10:07:43 -0600 Richard says: That said, I have a stack of MoTab albums which I play often-especially in the Christmas season. I have one recording which no one else seems to have of the MoTab singing Beetoven's Ninth and it is breathtaking. (Among my very favorite choral works is the Ninth, and _Carmina Burana_-- I think I would kill for a MoTab _Carmina Burana_ with a good orchestra.). I Roy responds: With all due respect, I disagree. Unfortunately the choir sang under the direction of Eugene Ormandy, who conducted the Ninth like he was conducting a funeral dirge. Of course that was typical Ormandy. It is THE most awful rendition my ears have ever been subjected to (except for a $1.99 version I picked up at Media Play). While the choir does some things well, most of the time they sound like the Lennon Sisters, everything sounds like everything else they do. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 24 Oct 2000 09:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Barbara Hume said: I asked my bishop why women are supposed to always wear skirts and dresses no matter what the weather. I asked him if he thought women need to be visibly labeled as "other." He thought about it for a minute and then said, "If you wear a pantsuit to church, I won't throw you out." Good on the bishop--he smoothly put the ball back into my court! Someone told me the other day that Catholic women wear jeans to church. Maybe one day I will wear one of my comfortable outfits to church instead of one that requires pantyhose, and see whether I am instantly released from my Gospel Essentials teaching calling. I moved to a ward outside of Utah in the Bay Area to discover that dresses at church for women were cultural and not doctrinal. (Several women wore pants to church every week.) During the four years I was in that ward, this cultural difference was pointed out only once, at an RS Board meeting by a fanatical Utah transplant who wondered if someone ought to correct these women. The whole thing made me re-evaluate who belongs at church and what the core of the gospel really is (dresses or tolerance?). This very friction between culture and doctrine is prime area for exploration in LDS fiction. And some of our most successful (IMO) literature uses it extremely effectively. I always return to my favorite irreverents, Levi Peterson and Neal Chandler, but it is amazing what they have done in their stories: creating testimony-affirming literature by turning our culture on its head. The Cowboy Jesus was moving to me not in spite of but BECAUSE he stood outside of cultural norms. Both of these authors seem to say, "All this, and underneath the gospel is true. See?" This is what our church needs, and who but authors are in a better position to point it out? ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 12:50:07 EDT I grew up Mormon and I grew up on horror. As a boy, I loved scary movies and I quickly saw the difference between scary and gory. Scary movies I love. Gory movies are trash. It's very much like the difference between a love story and a sex story that tries to pass for a love story. A bloody story that tries to pass for a scary story leaves me sick rather than inspired. Yes, I said 'inspired.' Good horror, to me, explores moral issues in ways that another genre can't. The classic example is Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_. Of course, I don't want them to answer moral questions, just raise them. I've never seen a stronger reaction to horror, as a genre, than right here on AML-List. Whenever I've said in the past that I appreciate good horror and wish that I wish there were some good Mormon horror stories, the response has been largely negative. Some have pointed me towards some stories that could rightly be classified as Mormon horror. "What Lies Beneath" is a good movie, but I agree in many respects, with people who think that some of it went too far. The sexual depictions were too explicit for my tastes, and unnecessary, but it was not deserving of more than a PG-13 rating. I still find the growing attitudes against R-rated movies difficult to buy. I don't see R-rated films, because I follow even when I don't see the reason, but the rating system seems grossly inadequate and inconsistent as a warning against scenes in a movie I'd rather not see. The ratings posted by Dean Macy don't match my memory of the movie, though. "Sex/Nudity - Heavy" doesn't seem like a fair judgment unless I dozed during those parts. Not likely. I don't recall the profanity being heavy, either. "Disrespectful/Bad Attitude" seems like a strange measure. I've never seen anyone in the official Church tell me to avoid dysfunctional family situations. It's a good thing. I would have had to run away from home as a child, and then again as a father. What does "Imitative Behavior" measure? I don't mind seeing smoking or drinking in a movie, either. People do smoke and drink, people right in front of us. I don't avoid such people. I really appreciate good fright, intensity, and yes, the obligatory jump scenes. I took my kids to see "What Lies Beneath." I might be a really terrible father, because they enjoyed it and I was glad. I won't take my wife. I don't like fingernails dug into my arm during jump scenes. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Contacting Lee Nelson Date: 24 Oct 2000 17:21:23 GMT Many thanks. I've contacted CFI and am waiting for a response from them= . I appreciate the help of all who responded to this question. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 11:30:27 -0600 A few comments, while I promise to be good during a discussion of my = personal bete noire, the ratings system. >Lies Beneath somehow made it through the "R" rating. Bribery I >guess, = because any film >gets an "R" rating if the language contains at least one "F--- >word. = They >missed this one. This used to be true. It isn't anymore. The absurdity of this silly rule = finally dawned on a few people, and nowadays films can include a couple of = F-bombs before they become an R. I couldn't cite any examples, because I = don't know what the ratings are for the films I view. Ever. But I know = it's happened a few times. =20 >Basically the Church wants members to stay clear of movies that >display = heavy sex/nudity, I think this is right. And from the Church's standpoint, this is probably = a reasonable standard. Nudity and sexual content is, to me, offensive or = inoffensive depending entirely on context. But I also don't want my kids = to watch films with extended nude scenes in them.=20 >profanity, blood & guts violence, bad attitudes, dysfunctional >family = situations and sensuality. The fuse is lit, the bombs are placed . . . . Kablooiey I saw a film the other day that had all these things. The main character = swore all the way through it. The violence was exceedingly graphic, = including a torture scene where a guy got his eyes poked out. Almost all = the characters had terrible attitudes and the family portrayed couldn't = have been more dysfunctional. And several scenes had strong sexual and = sensual undercurrents, especially scenes between a married woman and a = single man. The film was called King Lear, and it starred Laurence = Olivier.=20 What's with this dysfunctional family stuff? Take away dysfunctional = families, and drama absolutely disappears. Tennessee Williams out the = door. Arthur Miller, get lost. Ditto Moliere, ditto Sophocles, ditto = Racine, ditto Ibsen (in spades) ditto every other playwright I can think = of. Shakespeare only wrote about one happy marriage in all his plays. = (There are happy courtships, but only one happy marriage). It's the = marriage between Lady and Lord Macbeth. We HAVE to write about dysfunction= al families. The single biggest problem in contemporary filmmaking today = is that they don't portray anywhere near enough dysfunctional families. = Latter-day Saints especially should see as many films about dysfunctional = families as they can be dragged to. Bishops should pick out twenty or = thirty good films about dysfunctional families and require their congregati= ons to see them. We should have ward activities centered around seeing = films about dysfunctional families. Rule number one of dramatic and cinematic art: portrayal does NOT suggest = advocacy. Rule number two: all stories must have, at their heart, a conflict. =20 Rule number three: The higher the stakes, the better the story. In action = films, there aren't actually any characters to speak of, so we have to = artificially raise the stakes by having the bad guy about to blow up the = world or something. But in better, truer work, the stakes must be high = for characters we have come to care about. A family is a rare and = precious thing. So many of the very best films are about families at = risk.=20 Rule Four: At the moral center of dramatic story-telling is the notion = that audiences can and must learn from bad examples. The purpose of drama = is NOT to show good people behaving themselves. The purpose of most great = drama is to show ordinary people, like us, neither particularly good or = spectacularly horrible, making mistakes, and to also show the consequences,= personal or cosmic, of those mistakes. =20 Back to the list: >Alcohol/Drugs - Mild Irrelevant. =20 >Blood/Gore - Heavy =20 As in King Lear, Hamlet, Macbeth, Othello, Coriolanus, Oedipus the King, = Antigone. . . . >Disrespectful/Bad Attitude - Extreme Sounds like a film with lots of excellent conflicts to explore. >Frightening/Tense Scenes - Extreme I should hope so. It's a thriller. =20 =20 >Guns/Weapons - None Irrelevant. >Imitative Behavior - Mild Well, Aristotle argued that mimesis is at the heart of drama, an imitation = of a human action. I suppose that this film, like all films, actually = includes imitative behavior from the beginning of it to the end. =20 >Jump Scenes - Extreme I don't know what this is, but I assume it's a scene where someone jumps = out at someone else. Absolutely essential for a thriller to have a few of = these. I'll be sure to see this with my wife; she hugs me during jump = scenes.=20 =20 >Music (Scary/Tense) - Extreme I should hope so. =20 >Music (Inappropriate) - None I don't know that this means either. All music is appropriate to certain = settings, occasions and, in films, scenes. Sounds like they did a good = job here. =20 >Profanity - Heavy I say this is irrelevant to the moral impact of a film. But I know that = this is an issue some people feel strongly about. Surely this is a matter = about which reasonable people can disagree. =20 >Sex/Nudity - Heavy See above comment. =20 >Smoking - None Irrelevant. =20 >Tense Family Scenes - Heavy This is the most positive recommendation you could possible give a film. =20 >Topics To Talk About - Moderate I suspect that this isn't all that true. All films, in my experience, can = lead to the most interesting discussions. Not all do. =20 >Violence - Heavy Well, sure. It's a thriller. Sounds like a good film. I'll be sure to see it. Thanks for this very = positive recommendation. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 24 Oct 2000 11:37:25 -0600 on 10/23/00 4:51 PM, David Hansen at hpalaw3@wasatch.com wrote: > When I said the church wants to "support" the best artists out there, the > word I should have used was "encourage." I agree with Eric that there is > plenty of room for all and that the church only gives monetary support to a > very few to suit its purposes. I guess I'm agreeing, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the church even "encourages" artists. Except for those hired to do church films, art for the magazines, CES stuff (this has sometimes included me), the encouragement the official church gives to artists is to quote (I mean this quite literally) the late President of the U. S., Martin Van Buren... "Your cause is just but....." Which is exactly as it should be. The church exists to save souls and uses art as a tool when needed. However, the institutional church should not go out of its way to squash artists, which it occaisionally (sp?) and unintentionally does. Does this sound contradictory to you? On the one hand Apostles and Prophets have called for and dreamed of the creation of great saint-written works of art--new hymns of the restoration, oratorios, etc (I'm focusing on musical literature here). On the other hand, only the approved hymns are allowed (even for choirs) in most sacrament meetings. Meaning that if anyone ever writes a great hymn of the restoration it won't be heard in church. Now I know the handbook doesn't say "never anything but the approved hymns," but most bishops interpret it that way to be safe--believe me, I get commiserating phone calls from music people all over the U. S. I just say, "follow your leader." However, in one of my current callings I am stake music director and to my great joy, both my stake pres. and bishop have had me write original choral works on the scriptures used as themes in stake and ward conferences. (Bless them!) But before asking me, the stake president made sure it was a stake conf. where no GA would be attending. When a GA is present the instructions we get are clear--"only hymns from the hymnbook." I think I just mixed several subjects together. Sorry. Steve _ _ _ _ _ skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 24 Oct 2000 11:53:48 -0600 First of all, I'd like to apologize to Dave Hansen for misspelling his = name. My Norwegian grandfather, who stubbornly resisted an Ellis Island = official's suggestion that he change his name to Samuelson, would be = appalled at my insensitivity. =20 >I believe the "mormon culture" (if it can be defined) is distinctly = >separate from the institutional church. However, as soon as you >define = the culture as "mormon" you immediately involve the >institutional church. = In other words, you can have the church >without the culture, but not the = culture without the church. (Did I >do any better that time? Sigh.) I think I disagree with this pretty stenuously. I remember an article in Sunstone a few years ago, where a member of the = Utah Legislature said that the "Church" was the single biggest influence = on what sorts of legislation passed and which ones failed. Did "The = Church" ever lobby for particular bills? No. Did The Church make = pronouncements that resulted in certain bills being passed or rejected. = Very rarely. So how did the Church influence legislation? Because in = every private conversation this legistator had with his colleagues, they = would say "what will my ward members think if I vote for this." So The = Church, as an institution, was almost completely apolitical in Utah. But = Church culture was the single most important factor in how legislators = voted. =20 I think the culture and the institution can be described as two large = circles, part of which overlap, and most of which do not. So Mormons tend = to eat at McDonalds a lot. There are, per capita, a lot of McDonalds = restaurants in Utah. Does the Church support the eating of Big Macs? No. = But the Church has traditionally been located in Utah, and Utah's in the = Western part of the US, and the Western US tends to eat a lot of beef. = Mormon culture is tied to McDonalds culture, but there's no institutional = connection at all (or is there? The last three letters in McDonalds are = LDS. Coincidence?) and a good case could be made that Big Macs violate = at least the spirit of the Word of Wisdom. And I say that, knowing I ate = one yesterday, and will likely eat another tomorrow. And I'm not even going to touch the jello issue. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 12:48:13 -0600 I didn't like What Lies Beneath because it tricked me. The Harrison Ford character had NO foreshadowing about how nasty and wicked he was. So he was characterized to shock and scare, a mean trick. I don't mind the accoutrements--the blood and gore, the immorality--it all does show that in the end you do pay for the bad that you do. But I felt that I was being scared without a purpose--everything was dark and scary and shocking even before you get to the really scary stuff. Also I hated it that the woman played dummy--WHY did she struggle to get the phone out of the pocket? Typical bad wriiting--a real person would have run for her life. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] AML List Date: 24 Oct 2000 09:51:21 -0600 renatorigo wrote: > > > Am I the only foreigner in this list? > I am a foreigner. But I enjoy the delight, indignity, frustration and relief (depending on my mood and circumstances) of usually not being recognized as being foreign. I blend into the crowd as long as I remember not to spell words like colour correctly or say "eh" when I should say "huh". In other words I am not a visible foreigner. I am an invisible foreigner. I suppose the only thing about being an invisible foreigner that ever makes my blood boil is to have my foreigness acknowledged and then dismissed as being without significance. Like the time when I was in the Salt Lake Mission home and the Mission President's wife graciously introduced all the "foreign missionaries" in our group, one from England and another from Germany, I believe. When I pointed out that I, and perhaps others, were foreigners as well, she was less embarrassed than confused. Wasn't I just Canadian? I had no right to claim the elevated status of genuine foreigner. (All this immediately after a detailed lecture on the importance of honouring the cultural differences of the people throughout the world that we were called to serve.) Does this mean anything to AML? I wonder. Could we say to Renato and each other, as Paul said: "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God?" Maybe that's what the Mission President's wife meant. Her refusal to acknowledge my foreigness was perhaps an act of uncommon Christian tolerance and acceptance of me.... No. I think she was just an insensitive American woman. Her view of Canadians was doubtless the national average - "They're just like us, aren't they? Only maybe a little overly polite and not quite so bright. Well really, why would anyone live way up there in the frozen north if they were smart." I return to the question of relevance. This may seem a complete departure from the question at hand but I think the following comments are relevant. We should be aware that the LDS world is a chaotic one. Taken as a whole, it practically has no form or substance except growth. Massive, powerful, unchallenged growth that destroys it's own roots and reinvents itself almost every instant like a malignancy. (Or perhaps like a stone rolling forth to fill the whole earth - I think I read that metaphor somewhere). Some of us suffer from an illusion that there is a monolithic static culture to which we belong and which was created out of the lives and sacrifices of our pioneer forebearers. One which we can analyze, write about, and live amongst with that leisurely careless diffidence, so beloved of the intellectual psyche. If we accept this illusion as reality we are missing the breathtaking excitement of being a part of the break neck head long lunging of this juggernaut into a new world. It is well that we remember, from time to time, the great diversity of the current LDS world and the very narrow spectrum of thought, experience, interest, and understanding that the AML list represents. Renato is a precious visible reminder of that fact. "Am I the only foreigner in this list?" Renato asks. Speaking for myself, there is at least one other. But I'm invisible, so I won't even mention it. Tom -- Tom Matkin www.matkin.com (Romans 12:21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Mormon Writers' Conference Date: 24 Oct 2000 12:18:26 -0700 The Association for Mormon Letters is pleased to announce our Second Annual MORMON WRITERS' CONFERENCE November 4, 2000 Utah Valley State College, Student Center Orem, Utah Featuring seminars on fiction, nonfiction, film and theater, the craft of writing, poetry, music, and more, plus some special performances (Scroll to the end of this message for info on registering in advance or at the door. Please forward this message to anyone who might be interested.) 9:00 Extending the Culture Plenary session with Gideon Burton, Neal Kramer, and Eric Eliason 10:00 Breakout sessions: Is it okay to write about God? Personal essay Songwriting Characterization and dialogue Literature readings 11:00 Breakout sessions: LDS fiction: What's the next phase? Writing family histories Poetry: What's the point when no one reads the stuff? 1,000 ideas in an hour 12:00 Lunch break (optional lunch available) 1:00 Plenary session with novelist Dean Hughes 2:00 Breakout sessions: Faith meets fantasy: The Harry Potter syndrome Self-publishing and electronic publishing Appealing to the LDS audience Plot and structure Performance: "I Am Jane" 3:00 Breakout sessions: Historical fiction Separating gospel from culture: How to criticize LDS culture without losing your temple recommend Writing scripts for film and theater How to publish the next LDS blockbuster Literature readings 4:00 Extending the Depth and Breadth of Our Culture Plenary session with Margaret Young and Darius Gray - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ADVANCE REGISTRATION (Print and mail this form) ( ) Yes, please register me for the Mormon writers' conference on November 4. I've enclosed $30 (or $25 for full-time students and AML members) ( ) I would like to join other conference participants for lunch. I've enclosed an additional $10. ( ) Please send me a sample copy of IRREANTUM, the AML's literary quarterly. I've enclosed $4, which includes postage. (The current 96-page issue features in-depth, intimate interviews with filmmaker Richard Dutcher and novelist Robert Van Wagoner, as well as fiction, poetry, reviews, literary news, and more.) NOTE: Registration at the door for the conference will be $35. Your name and address: ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ Please make check payable to the AML and mail to: AML, 262 S. Main, Springville, UT 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 16:09:44 -0400 Is this statement the same as saying there is no such thing as a bad Shania Twain song? Debbie Brown ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 12:01 PM > For the record. > > No film in which Michelle Pfeiffer stars can ever stink. > > Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 16:29:31 EDT Cathy, Not that it's often good to be formulaic about things, but the old gothic romance formula specifically calls for the elements you didn't like about the movie. I, too, normally dislike wimpy women in movies, but a gothic romance like "What Lies Beneath" is not a gothic romance without a woman trying, sometimes ineptly, to unravel the secret of a big old house. She must be confused about the source of the evil. In fact, she almost MUST be wrong until the end. Usually, she mistrusts the wrong man. All characters in a gothic romance must be brooding, not just the houses. I thought Harrison Ford brooded well. Pity that the old gothic romances gave way to the new smutty romances. I was glad to see a short-lived comeback. As a teenager, I would often feign superior intelligence over characters in scary movies, but then more recently came to realize that the only reason I thought I'd be smarter in the same circumstance was that I was watching the movie and knew more than the characters knew. My kids do the same thing I did. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 14:55:09 -0600 >Gory movies are trash. Yes and no. As a guilty viewer of every Halloween and Friday the 13th movie, I am not going to make any attempt to defend them as quality movies (except the first Halloween, genre creator that it was.) These kinds of movies are usally plotless, poorly acted, and poorly directed. But at a certain technical level, they can be entertaining. (How did they make that guy's head explode?) Other than those technical aspects, I'll agree that gore films are pretty much useless. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 24 Oct 2000 13:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Cathy wrote: <> Actually, I disagree. I think there was sufficient sneaky foreshadowing that he would be a diabolical creep. Consider the following: (i) plenty of clues he was an egomanical workaholic who neglected his wife (in other words, pure evil), (ii) he even had his laptop in bed with him, typing away to win a Nobel prize or something, while his wife sought some relationship building chit-chat (heinous), (iii) he demanded that his wife say how wonderful he was (Hitler used to do this to Maria Braun, I'm sure of it), (iv) he was working on some yellow, goopy pharmacuetical (Ibsen's gun on the wall that would sooner or later go off!!) that immobilized mice (post-Stuart Little--this is a dead give-away!), and (v) when his wife assumed the dead women's personna, Ford "kicked" her into the air and onto the floor (not a very considerate thing to do--you should first try to repeat what the possessed person's point of view is so that they know you understand them, then you let them know how it makes *you* feel). Ed Snow ===== Among best sellers, Barnes & Noble ranks _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ in its top 100 (thousand, that is). Available now at 10% off http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD&mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Published Books by AML Event Authors Date: 25 Oct 2000 12:31:58 -0500 Folks, I've had inquiries from a bookstore owner who's scrambling to get books ordered in for the AML conference (Margy Layton, of The Read Leaf in Springville). She wanted to know if any of the following have actual published books she can order so they'll be available for selling. I'll compile the responses and forward them to her. Scott Bronson Richard Dutcher Shanna Nelson Scott Parkin Elbert Peck Steven Kapp Perry (anything besides CDs and sheet music? Is he the same Steve Perry that might have written a Star Wars novel?) Natalie Prado Eric Snider Sally Taylor Emily Watts Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 24 Oct 2000 17:01:40 -0400 At 10:07 AM 10/24/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Richard says: > >That said, I have a stack of MoTab albums which I play >often-especially in >the Christmas season. I have one recording which no one else seems >to have >of the MoTab singing Beetoven's Ninth and it is breathtaking. (Among >my >very favorite choral works is the Ninth, and _Carmina Burana_-- I >think I >would kill for a MoTab _Carmina Burana_ with a good orchestra.). I > >Roy responds: > >With all due respect, I disagree. Unfortunately the choir sang under >the direction of Eugene Ormandy, who conducted the Ninth like he was >conducting a funeral dirge. Of course that was typical Ormandy. It is >THE most awful rendition my ears have ever been subjected to (except >for a $1.99 version I picked up at Media Play). While the choir does >some things well, most of the time they sound like the Lennon Sisters, >everything sounds like everything else they do. > Diferent strokes for different folks. That's what my whole post was really about. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] E-books Date: 24 Oct 2000 23:26:46 -0600 renatorigo wrote: > What do you think about the e-books revolution into the > publishing market? > Do you have this in the US? All over the place. Whether it will ever catch on is open to heated debate. For years computer experts have been predicting something like the Internet connecting everyone in the world together. It kept not happening and not happening, then suddenly WHAMMO! In a couple years everyone was on the Internet. E-books have been another big prediction that has stubbornly refused to come true. It may still not become popular for years. But I wouldn't discount it, even though right now it appears that e-books will never replace regular books. The right combination of things could come together to suddenly make e-books all the rage, like HTML, easy-to-use web browsers, and visually interesting web page design came together to make the Internet suddenly popular. Personally, I don't think the right combination is pending yet. Not for books, anyway. Short stories perhaps. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 24 Oct 2000 18:56:28 -0400 The interesting thing to me has been how much the "traditions" vary from area to area. In our area (Ohio), somehow it has come to be believed that if there are both men and women speaking on a sacrament meeting program, the priesthood holder must speak last. In S. Cal, where my brother lives, they had a policy that a priesthood holder had to close the meeting with prayer-and that was apparently something that came from their area authority type people. My brother was a Bishop at the time. Some wards allow nothing but hymns to be sung at anytime during their 3hr block. Other wards' policies vary widely. Some Bishops encourage the choir to sing as much as possible. Others want more congregational 'rest hymns'. They may even have their reasons. At the time maybe the Bishop was inspired that that was what his ward needed. But, then it somehow becomes written in blood-very difficult to change. And, thank you, Eric, for your thoughtful comments on a different post. I was a little disturbed by some other comments about the church leaders drawing cultural lines and so forth. Disturbed may not be the right word. Even if I don't agree with those kinds of comments, they do get me thinking about the hows, whys, and so forth. You said a lot of what I was thinking. I was also thinking about General Conference, and some of the council given-good, uplifting and so forth. I don't recall the speakers ever stating exactly what it was that was good, uplifting and so forth. Only in very general terms-pornography, violence.... It seems to me that it is pretty much left up to the individual members to decide what it is that is good. Sometimes those are very individual and tough calls. One thing Eric said on even a different post that I did disagree with was his take on the rhetorical "What would Jesus do (or think)? type of question. I suppose if it was being shoved down my throat in every meeting, or being used as a 'what I say is right because...' kind of weapon, it would loose it's value. Yet, personally, I find it a very valid questions. Yes, it's true that Jesus is there on the front row whether we ask ourselves if He is or not. But, we don't always think about that. And, sometimes, thinking about it *does* change what we choose to do. If the question was stated, not "if the Savior was going to be on the front row", but "Since I know the Savior is present-or at least the Spirit, we hope-then is this something I really want to participate in?" There will be plenty of times that we will forget to ask ourselves, or we will ask ourselves and make a mistake, or ask ourselves and choose to do what we really feel is not quite right for whatever reasons, that there will still be abundant room in our lives for His mercy. (The computer tells me that's a horrible sentence. Oh, well.) Sorry for running all this together. I haven't had much time to spare lately, so once the fingers started, all the thoughts wanted their share of the computer screen. Thanks for all the great conversation everyone. Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] AML List Date: 25 Oct 2000 00:08:33 -0600 Tom Matkin wrote: > When I pointed out that I, and perhaps > others, were foreigners as well, she was less embarrassed than > confused. Wasn't I just Canadian? I had no right to claim the > elevated status of genuine foreigner. I don't think you (meaning Canada) are alone. There are other countries that share similar cultures besides the USA and Canada. Hercule Poirot keeps reminding everyone he's Belgian, not French. In my personal experience I can vouch for Germany and Austria. I served a mission in Germany and visited Austria before going home. I could tell little difference between Germany and Austria. No more difference than you can find among different regions of Germany. I think the same holds true with the USA and Canada. Because the USA is much larger in population and economic influence, the similar culture that the two countries share tends to be thought of as American culture. But it can hardly be denied that the two countries are very similar in their culture (which is why it's so easy for you to be an invisible foreigner), with the differences perhaps being not too much greater than the differences between New England and the Deep South in America. Is this a bad thing? I don't why it would be. I think the only bad thing about it is referring to the common culture as American, and thinking of Canadians as "Americans light," rather than looking at the culture as one that is common among two neighboring countries. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 25 Oct 2000 00:19:13 -0600 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > The single biggest problem in contemporary filmmaking today is that they don't portray anywhere near enough dysfunctional families. I assume you're talking about contemporary filmmaking on the planet Metaluna? Because you can't possibly be talking about Earth. That's all I seem to see in films--dysfunctional families. I'd like to see a few normal families coping with the challenges of life now and then. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenny Kemp" Subject: [AML] Great News! Date: 25 Oct 2000 06:54:33 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C03E50.6E38DCE0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002B_01C03E50.6E38DCE0" ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C03E50.6E38DCE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_002C_01C03E50.6E38DCE0" ------=_NextPart_002_002C_01C03E50.6E38DCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GlacierHi, Everyone: I have some wonderful news. My self-published memoir about my father, Dad Was A Carpenter, has been purchased by HarperCollins publishers. It happened this way: last summer, the book won the Grand Prize in the National Self-Published Book Awards sponsored by Writer's Digest magazine, besting over 1,000 other entries. The day after the news hit, I was deluged by calls from literary agents. One in particular, Joe Durepos of Chicago, impressed me with his energy and insights into the book. Joe is a former bookseller and we hit it off immediately--we both share the same irreverent sense of humor. His clients are primarily inspirational writers, and he's done many major deals. Joe went to work, and within a couple of weeks, we had finalized a package to present to the big publishers. It went out and within 12 hours, Gideon Weil, an associate editor at Harper San Francisco (a HarperCollins imprint) made a preemptive offer, attempting to curtail the auction. But it was already too late; we were already entertaining bids from other publishers, including Simon & Schuster. In the end we decided to go with HarperCollins because of Gideon, an editor who has the same drive and vision for the book as do Joe and I. We have not been disappointed. Gideon says the first printing will be over 50,000 copies, which Joe assures me is quite high and means that HSF believes the book is definitely bestseller material. In addition, I'm told the book was a hit at the just-finished Frankfurt Book Fair, where foreign publication rights are bought and sold. The book will be redesigned, but the text will remain essentially the same. I know many of you are interested in the answer to the Big Question, but all I will say is that it is in the "six figure" range. Of course, I'm ecstatic! But what this really means is that I can now afford to self-publish my next book, the illustrated parable The Welcoming Door, although Joe has asked me for a short window in January to try to get a deal with a major publisher before I go it alone. So, effective immediately, I am removing my edition of Dad Was A Carpenter from all national outlets, including Barnes & Noble , Borders, Walden, and all Dot-Coms. However, HarperCollins is allowing me to continue to sell the book in LDS bookstores and on my web site for a limited time. I have a few hundred copies remaining and I will be selling them at half price. If you would like an original, signed copy of Dad Was A Carpenter, please contact me at the numbers and/or URL below. These discounts will be good until March 1, 2001 or until supplies run out. This also includes the CD audiobook version of the book, which will also be available at half price, while supplies last. My most sincere thanks go out to all of you who have been constant supporters of my dreams. Thank you for your unfailing encouragement and friendship. And since you are great friends, I know you will pardon the impersonal nature of this email. Thank you! Kenny Kemp President ALTA FILMS & PRESS "Films and books that entertain, enlighten & inspire." kenny@alta-films.com www.alta-films.com Tel: (801) 943-0321 Fax: (801) 943-7227 ------=_NextPart_002_002C_01C03E50.6E38DCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glacier
Hi,=20 Everyone:
 
I have some = wonderful=20 news. My self-published memoir about my father, Dad Was A=20 Carpenter, has been purchased by HarperCollins = publishers. It=20 happened this way: last summer, the book won the Grand Prize in the = National Self-Published Book Awards sponsored by Writer's = Digest=20 magazine, besting over 1,000 other entries. The day after the news hit, = I was=20 deluged by calls from literary agents. One in particular, Joe Durepos of = Chicago, impressed me with his energy and insights into the book. Joe is = a=20 former bookseller and we hit it off immediately--we both share the same=20 irreverent sense of humor. His clients are primarily inspirational = writers, and=20 he's done many major deals.
 
Joe went to work, = and within a=20 couple of weeks, we had finalized a package to present to the big = publishers. It=20 went out and within 12 hours, Gideon Weil, an associate editor at Harper = San=20 Francisco (a HarperCollins imprint) made a preemptive offer, = attempting to=20 curtail the auction. But it was already too late; we = were already=20 entertaining bids from other publishers, including Simon & Schuster. = In the=20 end we decided to go with HarperCollins because of Gideon, an = editor who=20 has the same drive and vision for the book as do Joe and I. We have = not=20 been disappointed. Gideon says the first printing will be over 50,000 = copies,=20 which Joe assures me is quite high and means that HSF believes the book = is=20 definitely bestseller material. In addition, I'm told the book was a hit = at the=20 just-finished Frankfurt Book Fair, where foreign publication rights are = bought=20 and sold. The book will be redesigned, but the text will remain = essentially the=20 same.
 
I know many of you = are=20 interested in the answer to the Big Question, but all I will say is that = it is=20 in the "six figure" range. Of course, I'm ecstatic! But what this really = means=20 is that I can now afford to self-publish my next book, the illustrated = parable=20 The Welcoming Door, although Joe has asked me for = a short=20 window in January to try to get a deal with a major publisher = before I go=20 it alone.
 
So, effective=20 immediately, I am removing my edition of Dad Was A = Carpenter=20 from all national outlets, including Barnes & Noble , Borders, = Walden, and=20 all Dot-Coms. However, HarperCollins is allowing me to continue to=20 sell the book in LDS bookstores and on my web site for a = limited time.=20 I have a few hundred copies remaining and I will be selling them at = half=20 price. If you would like an original, signed copy of Dad Was A=20 Carpenter, please contact me at the numbers and/or URL below. These = discounts will be good until March 1, 2001 or until supplies run out. = This also=20 includes the CD audiobook version of the book, which will also be = available=20 at half price, while supplies last.
 
My most sincere = thanks go out=20 to all of you who have been constant supporters of my dreams. = Thank=20 you for your unfailing encouragement and friendship. And = since=20 you are great friends, I know you will pardon the impersonal = nature of=20 this email.  Thank you!
 Kenny = Kemp
President
ALTA = FILMS &=20 PRESS
"Films and = books that=20 entertain, enlighten & inspire."
kenny@alta-films.com     www.alta-films.com
Tel:  = (801)=20 943-0321   Fax: (801) 943-7227

 

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TITLE:President TEL;WORK;VOICE:(801) 943-0321 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(801) 943-0321 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(801) 856-8984 TEL;WORK;FAX:(801) 943-7227 ADR;WORK:;;3292 East Bengal Blvd.;Salt Lake City;UT;84121;United States = of America LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:3292 East Bengal = Blvd.=3D0D=3D0ASalt Lake City, UT 84121=3D0D=3D0AUnited States of A=3D merica ADR;HOME:;;3292 East Bengal Blvd.;Salt Lake City;UT;84121;United States = of America LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:3292 East Bengal = Blvd.=3D0D=3D0ASalt Lake City, UT 84121=3D0D=3D0AUnited States of A=3D merica URL: URL:http://www.alta-films.com BDAY:20000509 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:kenny@alta-films.com REV:20000724T050314Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C03E50.6E38DCE0-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] New IRREANTUM available Date: 25 Oct 2000 10:33:33 -0700 The Association for Mormon Letters announces publication of the autumn 2000 issue of our literary quarterly IRREANTUM. To order a single copy or subscription, scroll down to the order form. This 96-page issue, the largest yet, features the following: Editorial: Room to Be Lousy, Harlow Clark Interviews Richard Dutcher Robert Van Wagoner Fiction Faith of the Fathers, Paul Rawlins The Day of the Dog, Rodello Hunter The House, Dorothy Peterson The Lion Sleeps, Franklin Thatcher Aftermath (excerpt from The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass), Marilyn Brown Poetry Salamanders, J. P. Steed The Family, Mildred Barthel Approaching the Veil, Darlene Young Release and Sustaining, Darlene Young To the Clan of One-Breasted Women, Rodello Hunter A Certain Sound, Carol Clark Ottesen A Mother's Blessing, Carol Clark Ottesen Stroke, Carol Clark Ottesen Essay Writing the Fantastic and Religion: Some Ruminations on the Roles of Poetry, Michael R. Collings Reviews A Dance for Three, Louise Plummer Reviewed by Melissa Proffitt Dancing Naked, Robert Van Wagoner Reviewed by Christopher K. Bigelow Prodigal Journey, Linda Paulson Adams Reviewed by Katie Parker Two Headed, Julie Jensen Reviewed by Susan Barnson-Hayward Riptide, Marion Smith Reviewed by Terry L Jeffress Selected Recent Releases Mormon Literary Scene AML-List Highlights - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - AML Order Form (Print this and mail it in.) ( ) Single copy of autumn 2000 issue, $4 (includes postage) ( ) AML membership Includes Irreantum subscription, a copy of the book-length AML annual, discounts to AML events, and support of AML efforts. Annual dues: $20 ($15 for full-time students) ( ) Irreantum subscription without AML membership Four issues: $12 ( ) Irreantum back issues (prices include postage) ___ March 1999 ($3): Fiction by Ed Snow, essay by Benson Parkinson, more ___ June 1999 ($3): Interview with Marvin Payne, essay by Robert Paxton, more ___ Sept. 1999 ($3): Interview with Levi Peterson, fiction by John Bennion, more ___ Winter 1999--2000 ($3): Interview with Rachel Ann Nunes, fiction by Scott Parkin, more ___ Spring 2000 ($3): Interview with Margaret Young, play by Eric Samuelsen, more ___ Summer 2000 ($4): Interview with Dean Hughes, fiction by Todd Robert Peterson, more ( ) AML Annual Conference "Zion and New York: Bridges and Innovations in Mormon Writing" 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., February 24, 2001 Gore Auditorium, Westminster College, Salt Lake City Advance registration: $10 For AML members: $8 At the door: $12 ( ) Optional awards luncheon: $10 Total enclosed: ______ Make check payable to AML and mail to: AML, 262 S. Main, Springville, UT 84663. Name __________________________________ Address __________________________________ ___________________________________ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 25 Oct 2000 10:18:50 PDT Regarding F-words and ratings...I believe the quota is now three. If a movie has a fourth F-word, it will automatically be rated R. An example of pushing the limit would be The American President, which I believe has 3 uses of the F-word, but maintains the PG-13 rating. Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 25 Oct 2000 11:24:44 -0600 Rex wrote: Not that it's often good to be formulaic about things, but the old gothic romance formula specifically calls for the elements you didn't like about the movie. Ha. Something I didn't know. . . .hate it when that happens :). Thanks. Cathy Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 25 Oct 2000 11:32:46 -0600 >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com >[mailto:owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Debra L. Brown >Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 2:10 PM >To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie > > >Is this statement the same as saying there is no such thing as a bad Shania >Twain song? Yes. But just to show that I'm an equal-opportunity celebrity worshipper, here's a list of male actors who can never make a movie that stinks: Harrison Ford Michael Caine Sean Connery (there are others whose name escape me at the moment) These actors, regardless of the quality of the vehicle they are in, are always worth watching (though for different reasons than Michell Pfeiffer is worth watching ) Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Published Books by AML Event Authors Date: 25 Oct 2000 11:42:43 -0600 (MDT) Johnathan langford wrote: > Steven Kapp Perry (anything besides CDs and sheet music? Is he the same > Steve Perry that might have written a Star Wars novel?) I hope not. I enjoy Steve's music (The Kapp one) - and Steve Perry (the SF writer) is basically a knock-off writer - he's written some okay stuff, but he mostly writes in "other people's universes" such as novels set in the unvierse of the "Alien" and "Predator" movies. He ahs tried to write "original" stuff and failed. His SW novel (Shadow of The Empire) was horrid - easily his worst work. The Dark Horse comic adaptation was much better. I'm fairly sure they're aren't the same, since the biographies in the books/CDs don't match up. But maybe it's a conspiracy - Steven Kapp would lose his Mormon audience if they knew he'd written books with sex and bad language in them (mostly the Aliens and Predators novels - he kept the SW novel fairly clean - and bungled the one attempt at a mild alien eroticism). --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Published Books by AML Event Authors Date: 25 Oct 2000 17:45:03 GMT > >I've had inquiries from a bookstore owner who's scrambling to get books >ordered in for the AML conference (Margy Layton, of The Read Leaf in >Springville). She wanted to know if any of the following have actual >published books she can order so they'll be available for selling. I'll >compile the responses and forward them to her. > Me! I have! "Snide Remarks" and "Snide Remarks II: Electric Boogaloo," compilations of my columns, are published. They both have ISBN numbers; I just never got a distributor for them, so currently only the BYU Bookstore sells them. But if Margy at the Read Leaf will sell them without a distributor (B&N and Borders won't do that sort of thing), that would be great. (I print all of Margy's press releases in the Herald, so she can consider selling my books a little payback. :-) ) Thanks, Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Published Books by AML Event Authors Date: 25 Oct 2000 13:06:42 -0600 Jonathan-- Is this the same Margy that worked at Wicat? If so, tell her "hi" from Scott and me. [MOD: Yes.] Here's what I know: >Scott Bronson short story in _L. Ron Hubbard's Writers of the Future_, vol. 12, ed. Dave Wolverton. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, 1996. >Scott Parkin no books; just short stories in magazines >Elbert Peck no books >Steven Kapp Perry (anything besides CDs and sheet music? Is he the same >Steve Perry that might have written a Star Wars novel?) no >Sally Taylor poetry in _Harvest: Contemporary Mormon Poems_, ed. Eugene England and Dennis Clark. Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1989. _A Little Light at the Edge of Day_. Orem, Utah: Press Publishing, 1984 [Marny Parkin] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Published Books by AML Event Authors Date: 25 Oct 2000 13:11:56 -0600 > I've had inquiries from a bookstore owner who's scrambling to get > books ordered in for the AML conference (Margy Layton, of The > Read Leaf in Springville). She wanted to know if any of the > following have actual published books she can order so they'll > be available for selling. > Scott Bronson I have a whopping grand total of four publications. Two short stories and two one-act plays. But they're scattered about. I'll give you a list of where, but I wouldn't expect many people to come asking for them. "Confessions" by J. Scott Bronson Wasatch Review International: A Mormon Literary Journal; Volume 3, Issue 1; 1994. A one-act play. Winner of the Sunstone Mormon One-act Playwriting Contest. "Altars" by J. Scott Bronson Sunstone, October 1997. A one-act play. Winner of the Sunstone Mormon One-act Playwriting Contest. "A Report From the Terran Project" by Scott Everett Bronson Writers of the Future XII, Bridge Publications, 1996. A science fiction short story. "And the Moon Became As Blood" by Scott Everett Bronson Irreantum, Magazine of the Association for Mormon Letters, Spring 2000. A science fiction short story. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: RE: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 25 Oct 2000 14:20:27 -0500 At 14:55 24-10-00 -0600, you wrote: > >Other than those technical aspects, I'll agree that gore films are pretty >much useless. > >Thom Duncan And their producers are laughing all the way to the bank. -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenny Kemp" Subject: [AML] Great News! (resend) Date: 25 Oct 2000 07:00:41 -0700 [MOD: Apparently the previously sent version of this, which included special formatting, did not go out in a format that was readable to everyone. I also received this second version without the formatting, which unfortunately I did not see before sending the first version. Again, a plea to everyone to minimize any special formatting, so that everyone on the List can read messages, regardless of mail reader.] Hi, Everyone: I have some wonderful news. My self-published memoir about my father, "Dad Was A Carpenter," has been purchased by HarperCollins publishers. It happened this way: last summer, the book won the Grand Prize in the National Self-Published Book Awards sponsored by Writer's Digest magazine, besting over 1,000 other entries. The day after the news hit, I was deluged by calls from literary agents. One in particular, Joe Durepos of Chicago, impressed me with his energy and insights into the book. Joe is a former bookseller and we hit it off immediately--we both share the same irreverent sense of humor. His clients are primarily inspirational writers, and he's done many major deals. Joe went to work, and within a couple of weeks, we had finalized a package to present to the big publishers. It went out and within 12 hours, Gideon Weil, an associate editor at Harper San Francisco (a HarperCollins imprint) made a preemptive offer, attempting to curtail the auction. But it was already too late; we were already entertaining bids from other publishers, including Simon & Schuster. In the end we decided to go with HarperCollins because of Gideon, an editor who has the same drive and vision for the book as do Joe and I. We have not been disappointed. Gideon says the first printing will be over 50,000 copies, which Joe assures me is quite high and means that HSF believes the book is definitely bestseller material. In addition, I'm told the book was a hit at the Frankfurt Book Fair, where foreign publication rights are bought and sold. The book cover will be redesigned, but the text will remain essentially the same. I know many of you are interested in the answer to the Big Question, but all I will say is that it is in the "six figure" range. Of course, I'm ecstatic! But what this really means is that I can now afford to self-publish my next book, the illustrated parable "The Welcoming Door," although my agent Joe has asked me for a short window in January to try to get a deal with a major publisher before I go it alone. So, effective immediately, I am removing my edition of "Dad Was A Carpenter" from all national outlets, including Barnes & Noble , Borders, Walden, and all Dot-Coms. However, HarperCollins is allowing me to continue to sell the book in LDS bookstores and on my web site for a limited time. I have a few hundred copies remaining and I will be selling them at half price. If you would like an original, signed copy of "Dad Was A Carpenter," please contact me at the numbers and/or URL below. These discounts will be good until March 1, 2001 or until supplies run out. This also includes the CD audiobook version of the book, which will also be available at half price, while supplies last. My most sincere thanks go out to all of you who have been constant supporters of my dreams. Thank you for your unfailing encouragement and friendship. And since you are great friends, I know you will pardon the impersonal nature of this email. Thank you! -- Kenny Kemp ALTA FILMS & PRESS "Films and books that entertain, enlighten & inspire." kenny@alta-films.com www.alta-films.com Tel: (801) 943-0321 Fax: (801) 943-7227 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] Cornerstone Publishing Music Date: 25 Oct 2000 16:34:45 -0600 So, Richard, tell us in more detail what Cornerstone's plans are for music production. What does Tom have in mind? What should I start working on? scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 25 Oct 2000 19:05:31 -0600 Barbara wrote: Maybe one > day I will wear one of my comfortable outfits to church instead of one that > requires pantyhose, Hmmmm. . .I guess with my long cotton earth-mother dresses and Birkenstocks I've been in deep trouble for a long time. Once in a while I put on tights (cotton ones) and look a little more Mormon-y. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] Lee NELSON, _Cassidy_ (Review) Date: 25 Oct 2000 20:06:28 GMT Lee Nelson, "Cassidy" 1992, Council Press Hardback, 501 pages, No price given Review by Jeffrey Needle Many of you are familiar with Lee Nelson's work. His multivolume "Storm= Testament" series has been very popular with young people and adults alike. It brings to life early Mormon history in an exciting and vivid= way. "Cassidy" tells the story of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, infamou= s outlaws whose lives have been documented in print and film. I will confess to having never seen the movie "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," neither had I read much at all about Butch Cassidy, so the materia= l in this book was entirely new to me. The story begins with Cassidy (whose real name was Robert LeRoy Parker)= meeting the man who would become his earliest mentor, Mike Cassidy, a disreputable cattle rustler. Parker would later adopt the name Cassidy= in an attempt to hide his identity. Raised in a Mormon home, Parker sought a more exciting life, and saw in= Mike Cassidy a way to a prosperous future. Beginning with petty thievery, he works his way up to full-fledged bank robbery. The book is filled with exciting stories of frontier life, and vivid pictures of the people who made the West. Nelson is careful to detail his work with real names and places, placing Cassidy (who objected to killing a man for money) alongside his more violent counterparts. Nelson doesn't hesitate to poke some gentle fun at the Church. In one anecdote, two incompetent thieves named Maxwell and Porter, and competitors to Cassidy and his "Wild Bunch," plan to rob a bank, fleeing= , not on horses, but in a buggy. "But what if a posse comes after us. Won't it be hard to outrun them in= a buggy?" Porter asked. "It's only a few miles to the relay horses at Hobble Creek," Maxwell explained. "Besides you don't understand how these sleepy little Mormon= towns work. After we take the money, the banker will run to the bishop= and ask what to do. The bishop will run to the stake president who will= have to find the boy who is supposed to ring the bell to call out the militia. When the people hear the bell they will go looking for the gun= s and ammunition, saddle their horses, and ride to the bank where the stak= e president will give a speech and the bishop will say a prayer. Have you= ever heard of a Mormon bishop saying a prayer lasting less than 10 or 15= minutes? By the time all this happens we'll be in Vernal saloon spendin= g our gold." (pp. 330-331) As Nelson explores the character of Butch Cassidy, one wonders how to finally evaluate the man. Was he a Robin Hood of the West? He did, after all, give away much of his money to the poor. Was he just an opportunist, out to get rich at any cost? Hard to say. He was unwillin= g to take a man's life, and on at least one occasion refused to rob a man= of his company's payroll after having saved the man's life. Cassidy was= , indeed, an enigma. It's difficult to make moral judgments about people who lived in times much different from ours. Nelson's book gave me a helpful view of Cassidy's times and mind. One need not subscribe to moral relativism to= have at least some sympathy for the way folk lived back then. I liked "Cassidy" a lot. I always enjoy Lee Nelson's books. They are very readable, fast-moving, generally spare in prose and blunt in meaning. Reading a Nelson book is, for me, a bit of a journey back in time. By golly, I think I can smell the horses even now. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] AML List Date: 25 Oct 2000 20:25:25 -0600 -From: D. Michael Martindale >In my personal >experience I can vouch for Germany and Austria. I served a mission in >Germany and visited Austria before going home. I could tell little >difference between Germany and Austria. No more difference than you can >find among different regions of Germany. Barry Monroe says: As if! The Germans think Hilter was Austrian and Beethoven was German, and it's exactly the opposite! Alan Mitchell, Author, Angel of the Danube - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] AML List Date: 25 Oct 2000 23:09:23 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > I served a mission in > Germany and visited Austria before going home. I could tell little > difference between Germany and Austria. No more difference than you can > find among different regions of Germany. > > I think the same holds true with the USA and Canada. "Well Yanks and Canucks are the same!" Said my President's wife. To her shame. She was short and quite small But I didn't recall That D. Michael was really her name! Tom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Institutional Art Date: 26 Oct 2000 08:19:56 -0400 Glancing through this post again, I realize I said something very badly. The way it's worded implies that the pornography and violence were in general terms what was good and uplifting. I'm sure you were all intelligent enough to realize something was missing. I think I'll go back to bed for about a week now. Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- And, thank you, Eric, for your thoughtful comments on a different post. I was a little disturbed by some other comments about the church leaders drawing cultural lines and so forth. Disturbed may not be the right word. Even if I don't agree with those kinds of comments, they do get me thinking about the hows, whys, and so forth. You said a lot of what I was thinking. I was also thinking about General Conference, and some of the council given-good, uplifting and so forth. I don't recall the speakers ever stating exactly what it was that was good, uplifting and so forth. Only in very general terms-pornography, violence.... It seems to me that it is pretty much left up to the individual members to decide what it is that is good. Sometimes those are very individual and tough calls. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Great News! Date: 26 Oct 2000 09:15:16 EDT Congratulations. This is terrific news, and I'm sending in an order as soon as I get back from my own book reading\signing tour to SLC Oct. 28. Violet Kimball FWIW, I will be signing my book at Sam Weller's in SLC Nov. 4th at 2:00 PM. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 26 Oct 2000 10:35:32 -0600 D. Michael wrote >I assume you're talking about contemporary filmmaking on the >planet = Metaluna? Because you can't possibly be talking about >Earth. That's all I = seem to see in films--dysfunctional families. I'd >like to see a few = normal families coping with the challenges of life >now and then. Could we say that that's the purpose of television? To show more or less = normal families dealing with the challenges of life in 22 minute increments= , extending their relationships over one or more seasons? I just think = that television offers more scope for this kind of story-telling. =20 As far as films go, I mostly see films about people who seem oddly = family-less. I'd rather see films about dysfunctional families, than = films about supercops defeating crazed terrorists. Just a matter of = taste. When we do see seriously intended films with family themes (A = Thousand Acres, High Fidelity, Being John Malkovich, Pushing Tin, American = Beauty come immediately to mind), they're pretty terrific. And they're = terrific because they're about dysfunctional families. Great subject for = drama, because the stakes are high, we care about what happens, and we = learn a lot. =20 But most films come in genres in which families are either irrelevant, or = in the background. Romantic comedies are about forming a family, not = about living in one. Sports movies are about teams as surrogate families. = Action films do sometimes have the patient little wife waiting at home = for her brave cop husband, but that's usually a pretty boring part. = Unless the terrorist kidnaps her, and she gets to scream a bit. And the = good guy can't bring himself to shoot the bad guy, setting up the = obligatory tied-up-so-the-bad-guy-can-gloat-and-tell-us-the-plot scene. = Right before the dramatic escape scene. Realistic, interesting films about families coping with everyday problems? = Well, what's the conflict? What makes the stakes high enough to hold the = story together for two hours? I don't see it. With some few exceptions, = charm films like Parenthood, for example.=20 I also wonder if we should diss the Metalunans. Not very PC of us, is it? = =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rexgoode" Subject: [AML] Is Writing Genetic? (Part 2) Date: 26 Oct 2000 11:23:23 -0700 Some of you may remember that I finally found my father after a lifetime of not knowing him. I was amazed to learn that he loves to write and even has a small children's book published. We have been corresponding via email for the last two months. Friday night, he drove up from California to Oregon to visit me. It was a reunion without the "re" part. Due to some problems with mental illness, he doesn't remember being married to my mother. His only memory of her was when she visited him in a VA hospital to tell him she was divorcing him. Saturday we spent together driving to the Oregon coast and back. We talked the whole time, getting to know each other. My father remembers his childhood up to the age of fourteen, but nothing after until he was released from a VA hospital many, many years later. His mother died when he was a boy and his rancher father didn't take up the slack, so my father took care of himself from a fairly early age. He took the whole family to dinner on Saturday night and talked about his boyhood. He spoke of how his father had an indentation in his chest and would moan from his bed how he was going to die. As my father said this, I looked over at my son, because I knew what he would be thinking. You see, two of my sons also have a mysterious indentation in their chests. X-rays show that their sternums are receded and their ribs are attached towards the front--a genetic malformation. It's not life-threatening. To fix it would require breaking the sternum loose and rewiring it to the front. My grandfather obviously didn't know this, or maybe he just preferred to use it for sympathy. It seemed strange to us all that this structure would skip my father and I and end up in two of my children. When I was born, with my father absent, my grandfather repudiated me. He refused to see me when my mother took me to him. He accused her of infidelity to his son and said that I was not his grandson. "Well, Grandfather, you were wrong, and I've got two sternums to prove it." During his marriage to my mother, which was during the missing period in his memory, my father joined the Church. He has no recollection of it. Sunday was our stake conference and I was scheduled to do a solo verse of, "O My Father." I went to rehearsal early. My father came with my wife and children. Before the meeting started, I went down to greet him. He asked, "What are you singing, son?" I said, "O My Father." He paused and asked, "Is that the one that goes, 'O my Father, thou that dwellest...?'" I was surprised. He doesn't remember being a member of the Church, but remembers the words to "O My Father." Oh the power of music! It was not lost on my bishop and friends that I would be singing a song titled, "O My Father," on the weekend of my first meeting my own father. The solo was difficult. After conference, I drove my father back to his hotel. We embraced. He said, "Thank you for being so wonderful and thank you for accepting this wayward old man." I answered, "I'm kind of a wayward old man myself." When I got back home, I sat at my computer and noticed the manuscript he had left for me. It's a novel he's been writing. He wants my feedback. I'm anxious to read it. I imagine I'll find even more evidence that I am his son, though there is no doubt. [Rex Goode] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] What Lies Beneath - The Movie Date: 26 Oct 2000 13:27:40 -0600 > >Gory movies are trash. > > Yes and no. > Other than those technical aspects, I'll agree that gore films are pretty > much useless. > > Thom Duncan They may have one other rather odd use. When my youngest was four, he was facinated with the human body. I'll never forget the first time he handed me a piece of paper and a crayon in Sacrament Meeting and said, "Dad, draw me a bladder." I didn't think I'd heard him right, whereupon, he took the paper and crayon back from me and drew a pretty good representation of a bladder, complete with incoming and outgoing ducts. I was stunned. For a couple of years, we bought him various anatomy books, mostly simple ones for children, but he wasn't satisfied until my brother, as a Christmas present, gave him his old cadaver book from medical school. Believe it or not, he used to have me read it to him at night instead of a story. (Note lame tie to Mormon literature.) Anyway, because of his fascination about the human body, he used to watch every slasher movie he could get his hands on. I have never liked slasher movies, and to this day I haven't seen one of the movies he watched, though I'm familiar with their gory content. Apparently, his interest in these movies was totally clinical, because one day he learned that they were fake and that special effects artists made up what they thought the insides of the body looked like. He hasn't watched one since. Don't worry, aside from a few other oddities (like being able to improvise songs on the piano that only a young Beethoven or Mozart might have written and getting unbelievably high grades on Math and Chemistry exams without bringing his calculator, reading anything from the text, or studying a lick) he's turned out rather normal. (He's still interested in the body, but primarily brain chemistry and neurology. He's made this a subject of considerable personal study.) Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Tooting My Own Horn (Come See My Band) Date: 26 Oct 2000 16:14:41 -0600 (MDT) This relates to Mormon Literature as both our fiddler and I write original songs for the band.... My band Organic Greens is currently scheduled to play Nov. 17th at 9:30 pm in BYUs Madsen recital hall (in the HFAC - Harris Fine Arts center). This is in conjuction with the BYU Folk Music Ensemble which will be doing two shows that night. One at 7:30 pm which will focus on Bluegrass and American music and will feature the American Folk Ensemble and a National Fiddle champion who is also a BYU alum; and one at 9:30 focusing on Celtic music, featuring the International Folk Ensemble and my band. I'm not sure if we'll be doing any of our original songs yet, but it's a strong possibility. We've been working on this for a few weeks and just got the confirmation - there was suppossed to be only one show that night, but due to a large demand, they added a second show - tickets are now available for each show, and they will soon sell specialty tickets for both shows. My band is playing at the 9:30 pm show - so make sure you see that one. For more information check out our website - http://organicgreens.freeyellow.com get you tickets now - they usually sell out a week or so before the show (for the Folk Music Ensemble - not my band - we aren't that popular yet) There's also a Christmas CD coming out soon (through the Timpanogos Singer/Songwriter Association - http://www.timpanogos.org - that will have a track from my band (as well as other Utah notables such as Ryan Shupe, Mark Geslison, Cherie Call, etc.) I'll let the list know as soon as it's available. --Ivan Wolfe Bandleader, Guitarist, Bouzouki-ist and Vocalist for Organic Greens. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Dallas Morning News Explores Boom in Mormon Science Date: 27 Oct 2000 00:17:27 EDT Dallas TX Morning News 21Oct00 A2 [From Mormon-News] Dallas Morning News Explores Boom in Mormon Science Fiction DALLAS, TEXAS -- A feature article in Saturday's Dallas Morning News looks at the surprising number of Mormons who write science fiction. A website that tracks religious affiliation counts 175 Mormon science fiction writers, and many of the writers credit LDS Church theology for the strong showing. According to the article, the trend started with a BYU literature class started in the late 1970s. "Mormons are theologically not so far removed from science fiction," said well-known LDS science fiction writer Orson Scott Card. "We literally believe that God has created sentient beings on other worlds, that there really is faster-than-light travel and that God can go hither and yon. ... In many cases, we are writing about a universe we have already thought about from childhood on." Preston Hunder, a Dallas, Texas computer programmer, has compiled a list of 175 Mormon "Speculative Fiction" (includes fantasy as well as science fiction) writers which he has posted on his adherents.com website. He says it is not surprising that so many Mormons write speculative fiction, "Mormon theology does dovetail with science fiction quite nicely. They have similar outlooks on God and the universe that other Christian churches do not." The list of writers includes Card, Tracy Hickman, Anne Perry, Zenna Henderson and Russell Asplund. BYU Professor Marion K. Smith is credited by some writers with starting the boom in Mormon speculative fiction writers. In the late 1970s, Smith came to BYU to teach a class in science fiction writing when Card decided not to teach there. The course has been offered every year, and alumni include published authors M. Shayne Bell and Dave Wolverton, both of whom took the class in its first year. Smith says that there are three elements of Mormon theology that are easily described in speculative fiction. First, the Mormon belief that human beings are literally God's children. Second, the Mormon belief in a pre-mortal existence and in "eternal progression," and third, the sagas of wars, lost tribes and vanished civilizations in Mormon scriptures. To Dr. Smith's reasons, Card adds a fourth, the Mormon experience of being an alien or outcast in a larger culture. "So the concept of lost civilizations, of alien races and other cultures is not foreign to us," Dr. Smith said. "And that is a backbone of science fiction, that there are people who have unusual knowledge and act upon it." Scott R. Parkin, an LDS writer who has compiled a speculative fiction bibliography, says that this genre gives LDS writers more flexibility to express Mormon thought. "Science fiction gives you more philosophical breadth" than mainstream fiction. "Because we can work with allegory and metaphors in science fiction, we are able to reveal more of what it is we believe or hope in a direct narrative that doesn't have to be about being Mormon." Source: Fantastic journeys Dallas TX Morning News 21Oct00 A2 http://www.dallasnews.com/religion/195918_scifi_21rel.AR.html By Kimberly Winston: Special Contributor to The Dallas Morning News Mormon authors say faith informs their science fiction >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN BYU professor uncovers life story of 17th-century Catholic Date: 27 Oct 2000 00:17:27 EDT bishop: BYU Press Release 19Oct00 D2 [From Mormon-News] BYU professor uncovers life story of 17th-century Catholic bishop By Andrea Laycock PROVO, Utah --When the elderly Belgian priest gingerly placed another stack of disintegrating documents in front of Brigham Young University history professor Craig Harline, it only took moments of thumbing though the crackling parchment of an old diary before Harline knew he'd found the subject of his next book. Thirteen years later the fragile diary Harline was so excited to find in the archives of an aging seminary has been transformed to a readable book describing the life of a Catholic bishop "A Bishop's Tale: Mathias Hovius Among His Flock in Seventeenth-Century Flanders," published by the Yale University Press. "While I was researching in Europe, people often wondered why an American from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was so interested in a Belgian Catholic bishop," Harline said. "But by viewing life through the eyes of different people, we learn more about being human than if we depend on our own experience alone." Harline's book, co-authored with Eddy Put, a senior assistant at the Belgian National Archives, takes the reader through various episodes and characters in the life of the third Archbishop of Mechelen, who lived in what is now part of modern Belgium, as seen through his eyes. "We were envious of the novelist's total freedom of invention, but we were consoled repeatedly by encounters with characters and events more improbable than we ever could have imagined ourselves," Harline wrote. "A Bishop's Tale" is riddled with ordinary and colorful people, including devoted and not-so-devoted priests, peasant women determined not to let their babies die unbaptized, millers violating Sabbath-decrees and a hospital sister accused of stealing from a patient. The anecdotes make Harline and Put's book more like a novel than a dry work of history that examines religious turbulence during the Age of Reformation. "This book is meant to be understood and interesting for a general audience, not experts," Harline said. "I wanted to get up close and write a history from the level of experience, because when we learn about someone's struggles or triumphs we can relate better to that person than we can to abstractions about trends or society." While poring over towering piles of documents, Harline and Put learned about thousands of the bishop's acquaintances, but only picked the stories they thought most vividly described the challenges and themes in a bishop's eventful life. "I wanted to give readers a sense of what it was like to be a Catholic bishop during a time of religious upheaval," Harline said. "During the Age of Reformation, large rival movements produced unprecedented tension and zeal in European Christianity as Protestants and Catholics fought to make converts and to keep the believers they had." Put shares Harline's desire to help people understand the impact of the turbulence of faith. "I hope many readers will get a glimpse of what religion meant in 17th-century Europe," he said. "The Age of Reformation may show an interesting confrontation at the intellectual level, but we mainly wondered what was going on between people of flesh and blood." Heiko Oberman, regents professor of history at the University of Arizona and a well-known scholar on the Reformation, said that "A Bishop's Tale" allows the reader to enter the everyday life of those living in the 17th century. "The detail given in the book allows the reader to feel what people were experiencing during that time. You are living in the houses of the people, escaping with the soldiers, you are hungering with those that are hungry, and because of that detail, you identify with the characters. That is the way history should be." After the discovery of the bishop's diary, Harline and Put took twice as long to research and compile "A Bishop's Tale" than they had predicted. Their work was interrupted by other obligations and by the growing realization of just how large this project was as they gathered documents sprinkled around Europe. Instead of spending his summers in a lawn chair in his backyard, Harline traveled to Belgium each summer and spent his days in musty archives, hovering over rumpled documents, letters and diaries under the gaze of flourescent lights. "There is a lot of tedium in archival work," Harline said. "But when I saw how interesting the stories in Mathias Hovius' journal were, it motivated me to continue because I never knew what was going to happen next." Put and Harline divided the research into different topics and traveled to different archives around Europe collecting the appropriate documents. After their research was complete, each reviewed what the other had done to ensure their investigations were thorough. The two historians also put their language skills to the test as they translated documents from Latin, French and Dutch. Harline learned Dutch while serving a mission for the LDS Church in Belgium 23 years ago and French and Latin through his academic studies. To ensure unity of style, the final English version of "The Bishop's Tale" was written by Harline, while Put is writing the final Dutch version of the book. Contributing to Harline's insight into the Age of Reformation is his previous book "The Burdens of Sister Margaret: Inside a Seventeenth-Century Convent," which tells the personal history of a 17th-century nun in Leuven, Belgium. Harline wrote the book after finding bundles of letters from a nun that gave an intimate description of conventual life during the Age of Reformation. A newly abridged paperbound version of this book was released in August. - ### - >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: [AML] Mormon Culture in Mormon Lit Date: 27 Oct 2000 08:49:51 -0700 (PDT) The discussion about the difference between doctrine and cultural tradition in the church has me very interested in doing an analysis of literary works that "play" with LDS culture in order to point out the line between culture and gospel. Could you help me assemble a list? I'm particularly interested in books or stories that are testimony-building in spite of being critical or mocking of aspects of our culture. Drawing only from what I've read, these are the works I've thought of so far: Peterson's "Backslider" (offensive to some, the depiction of Jesus' visit to the irreverent protagonist is an extremely moving sermon on atonement) and a few of his other stories in which atypical Mormons look "wicked" on the outside but have hearts that truly yearn for God. Chandler's stories in "Benediction." The Last Nephite criticizes correlation and some of the church's management techniques while teaching lovingkindness. (And most of the other stories are equally appropriate.) Some Elouise Bell (?)--I remember a story about women presiding in Sacrament Meeting and men playing the organ and leading the music. Another story I read once in "Dialogue" about a sister missionary who gets a tatoo (anyone remember this one?). OK, so my list is awfully short so far. What have you read that uses twists of culture to teach the gospel of Christ? ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] MN Dallas Morning News Explores Boom in Mormon Science Date: 27 Oct 2000 12:25:34 -0500 In the interests of accuracy, I feel the need to correct a couple of points in this announcement, most or all of which also appeared in the original article. They don't make much difference to the basic thrust--but this being a home list of Mormon letters, so to speak, it's probably important that the details be reported correctly. * Marion Smith did not "come to" BYU to teach the creative writing class. He was already at BYU, teaching technical writing (and presumably other courses), and took over the creative writing class when Scott Card was unable to teach it as originally planned. * Dave Wolverton was not part of that first year's creative writing class, and I'm not sure he ever actually took Bro. Smith's class, although he did take creative writing classes from others at BYU. His involvement with the BYU sf&f community started around 1984, if I recall correctly. The source of this confusion probably lies with the fact that he did join Xenobia, the writing group originally formed by Shayne Bell, Barbara Hume, Dave Doering, and others from that first creative writing class. Many of the most productive Mormon writers have been a part of that group (and various other writing groups formed either as spin-offs or in reaction to it) from time to time, although some of the best-known nationally, such as Elizabeth Boyer and Tracy Hickman--and, of course, Scott Card--found their own way into writing independent of Xenobia and its various offshoots and projects. Of course, in the case of Card and Boyer--and possibly Hickman as well--their time at BYU predated the formation of Xenobia. Projects that can be considered offshoots of Xenobia include _The Leading Edge_ magazine and the annual science fiction and fantasy symposium, both of which continue today, though with no formal connection to Xenobia. * I believe it's not Scott but Marny Parkin who has compiled the bibliography of Mormon sf&f. Marny is also guest editing a special issue of _Irreantum_ focusing on science fiction and fantasy. Not that Scott is any slouch in this department. He's a talented creative writer, with several published stories--both sf&f and mainstream--and was also the author of an excellent series of columns on Mormon sf&f for AML-List a couple of years ago. A very talented couple. Jonathan Langford Speaking as an old-time BYU sf&f community member--not as List moderator jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Starkman Subject: Re: [AML] AML List Date: 27 Oct 2000 12:11:41 -0700 Wait a sec... Hitler was the Austrian, and Beethoven, the wandering tenant of Grinzing (not too far from the Vienna mission house) from Bonn... The way I hear usually hear this joke it's that the _Austrians_ would like to pretend H. was the German and B. the Austrian. Or did you mean this and I'm just being dense? --Ruth Starkman Alan Mitchell wrote: > -From: D. Michael Martindale > >In my personal > >experience I can vouch for Germany and Austria. I served a mission in > >Germany and visited Austria before going home. I could tell little > >difference between Germany and Austria. No more difference than you can > >find among different regions of Germany. > > Barry Monroe says: As if! > The Germans think Hilter was Austrian and Beethoven was German, and it's > exactly the opposite! > > Alan Mitchell, Author, Angel of the Danube - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Maxine Hanks Subject: [AML] SMITH, _Riptide_ (News Release) Date: 27 Oct 2000 14:04:40 -0600 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Marion Smith, author, Ph. (801) 278-4123 nsmith20@uswest.net Maxine Hanks, editor, Ph. (801) 322-5640 maxinne@juno.com Signature Books, Ph. (801) 531-1483 x105 signature@thegulf.com RIPTIDE IS FINALIST IN UTAH BOOK AWARD, 2000. The Utah Center for the Book and the Utah Arts Council have announced the finalists for the Utah Book Award 2000. The award will be presented Friday, November 17 at the Salt Lake Public Library, beginning at 7 p.m. in the third floor auditorium, 209 East 500 South. The Utah Book Award recognizes the three best books of the year by Utah authors. The award is presented in the categories of fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. The nonfiction finalists are: Chip Ward for _Canaries on the Rim_, Terry Tempest Williams for _Leap_, and Harvey Frauenglass for _Cidermaster of Rio Oscuro_. The finalists in poetry are Kolette Montague for _Easing Into Light_ and Judy Jordan for _Carolina Ghost Woods_. This year, the award for fiction has two finalists: Marion Smith for _Riptide_, and Helen Papanikolas for _The Time of the Little Black Bird_. Riptide was published this past spring by Signature Books. Last year, the award went to Rob Van Wagoner for his novel, _Dancing Naked_, published by Signature Books. _Dancing Naked_ received critical and national acclaim for its quality of writing and originality as the first "great Mormon novel." The book probes controversial themes and feelings, in exquisite style and poetic language. _Riptide_ too, explores controversial themes, delving into the darker side of Utah culture. Smith probes the moral dilemmas created by child sexual abuse and its real effects on lives, while also discussing larger issues in Mormon culture --like religious belief, traditional values, and loss of faith. In a meditative, stream-of-consciousness narrative evoking memoir, she reveals the complex dilemmas faced by a Utah family whose children are sexually abused by a family member. _Riptide_ is a fictionalized version of a true story about a Mormon family in Salt Lake. >From the moment you begin reading _Riptide_, you enter the mind of Laurel Greer and don't want to leave. Laurel's inner world is a familiar place, yet a strange escape into a troubled existence. The narrative takes a journey through the mind's landscape as Laurel herself drives through Utah hoping to leave it and its traumas behind. The writing is sensitive, colorful and vivid, the insights provocative and original, the style contemporary without being trendy or self-conscious. Laurel probes disillusionment and devastation while searching and struggling for some kind of psychological resolution. _Riptide_ explores the wrenching urges lurking inside of a woman's pain, honestly excavating the complex layers of belief, suffering and faith. This odyssey within a mother's mind is written in an authentic female voice that confesses the negative side of Mormon culture as well as woman's own nature. Above all, _Riptide_ is a redemptive work. Laurel confronts and confesses the evil in life-- as well as in her own anger, hatred and desire to destroy that which has destroyed her. In this way, she finds redemption as only one can--by knowing and integrating her own dark side. Laurel does the very thing that an abuser cannot do for himself, that is, confess the darkness within. Marion Smith is a grandmother born and raised in Salt Lake City, whose book takes us on a tour of the unexplored, shadow side of the female Mormon psyche. An expert on child abuse, Marion Smith has a master's degree in psychology, is a former therapist, and co-founder of the Intermountain Specialized Abuse Treatment Center in Salt Lake. _Riptide_ is available in paperback for $14.95 in any bookstore. ISBN #: 1-56085-131-7. Smith and the other authors will read from their books on Friday evening, November 17 at the awards ceremony beginning at 7 p.m. The winner will be announced and will be honored with the Utah Book Award in fiction for 2000. The Center for the Book in the Library of Congress was established by an Act of Congress in 1977 to stimulate public interest in books, reading, libraries and literacy, and to encourage the study of books and print culture as well as a state's unique literary culture. ---------------------end----------------------- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re:[AML] Is Writing Genetic? (Part 2) Date: 27 Oct 2000 18:30:11 -0200 > Of course writing isn=B4t genetic but , of course, you could have a father, mother or somebody that makes you love to read and then you certainly will love to write.. In your case..."coincidence".. I think... Renato - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] Clothes at Church (was: Institutional Art) Date: 25 Oct 2000 18:43:00 -0200 > Barbara Hume and Darlene Young talked about using pants , or jeans or other thing more confortable at Church... I agree with them.... I have the Melquisedeque Priesthood and sometimes I go to church without a tie...and sometimes I=B4m the only one without ties....Me and Christ :-))) Did He use ties? My wife is Catholic (The most of brazilian are catholic). She liked the LDS doctrine but she really did=B4t get to be confortable among a lot of women with strange clothes.... This is one of the causes she didn=B4t want to receive baptism... What about the garments? The real protection is the feelings into your heart and not white clothes from last century.... WE HAVE TO CHANGE TO CONQUEST THE WHOLE WORLD CULTURALLY... RENATO - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Published Books by AML Event Authors Date: 26 Oct 2000 09:10:19 -0600 on 10/25/00 11:42 AM, Ivan Angus Wolfe at iaw2@email.byu.edu wrote: > Johnathan langford wrote: >> Steven Kapp Perry (... Is he the same >> Steve Perry that might have written a Star Wars novel?) > > > I hope not.... But maybe it's a conspiracy - Steven Kapp would lose his > Mormon > audience if they knew he'd written books with sex and bad language in them > (mostly the Aliens and Predators novels - he kept the SW novel fairly clean - > and bungled the one attempt at a mild alien eroticism). I have never even once attempted alien eroticism, mild or otherwise. > Steven Kapp Perry (anything besides CDs and sheet music? Since the topic of our panel is Songwriting, would CD's be appropriate? I could recommend one or two. >Is he the same > Steve Perry that might have written a Star Wars novel?) I can only wish. There are lots of us Steve Perries running around, which is why I use my middle name professionally, and why I get periodic calls for Steve Perry Construction asking me where I'd like a backhoe delivered. I've thought of some interesting places, but haven't yet had the guts to actually suggest them... :-) Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re:[AML] MN Dallas Morning News Explores Boom in Mormon Science Date: 27 Oct 2000 18:45:22 -0200 > This is a strange situation encoutered in the US, and I don=B4t believe in everything the newspapers write...I don=B4t think mormons write more fiction books than other religion...Here in Brazil the catholics write more fiction books than mormons...because there are a lot of catholics and few mormons...statisctics problem... I read the article in the Dallas Morning (on the web version , of course) and I felt the main objective of the author of the text wasn=B4t to say mormon are excelent fiction writers...the writer was trying to say mormons write more fictions because of his scriptures book (mainly The Book of Mormon)...He tries to say mormons develop creativity reading The Book of Mormon....a book full of epic stories, about wars and vanished civilizations.... One of writer=B4s phrases: "Mormons are theologically not so far removed from science fiction," Conclusion: the writer should discover God and not write bad works...bad texts...bad opinion ...without a deep knowledge about the subject... Renato Brazil renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Is Writing Genetic? (Part 2) Date: 28 Oct 2000 09:05:50 -0600 It's Saturday morning and I'm sitting here with tears running down my face (doesn't happen very often) reading this story. Thank you so so much for writing it and sharing it. Cathy Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Is Writing Genetic? (Part 2) Date: 28 Oct 2000 10:37:55 -0600 Rex, With this last addendum, your life story just went from fascinating to must-read. If I were your mother I would say something like, " Well, Rex, just carry around 3X5 cards (or 4X6) and start putting down events on cards when they occur to you and chuck 'em in a file box. Then when it's mostly full, you can put them in order and get to work writing the book." But, of course, not being your mother, I would never presume so much. :-) Steve _ _ _ _ _ skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Cornerstone Publishing Music Date: 28 Oct 2000 11:44:55 -0600 Tom is our new VP of Music, and the plan is to produce some "Sunday afternoon listening" at first, because that's what sells in our primary market. I'm not at liberty to go into details on the first album, but according to Thomas (that's how we refer to him in the family), it's gonna be excellent. I'm not familiar with your voice, Scott. Are you a tenor, baritone? If so, I'm really hot to do an album of sacred duets with my sister-in-law who is a fabulous coloratura. She really brings the house down with her rendition of "O Divine Redeemer," but it's even better as a duet (with Tenor). I also love (though not strictly a sacred piece) the duet from Samson & Delilah. (Might have to raise the key, as it's written for a mesosoprano.) Richard - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kirk Strickland" Subject: [AML] Re: [AML-Mag] Great News! Date: 27 Oct 2000 10:07:25 -0600 Big Congrats, Kenny!--Kirk - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] Breath of Fresh Air Date: 30 Oct 2000 08:28:28 -0800 I haven't been active on this list for several months. I've been immersing myself in another group of lists. I think AML-List has ruined other lists for me, though! I expected the same open-mindedness and tolerance and sharing of opinions that I've known here. Instead I found something very different. It's like a breath of fresh air to be here again. -Beth Hatch [MOD: I hope it may ever be so.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Artists Turns Family History Into Queens Museum of Art Date: 28 Oct 2000 22:50:38 EDT Exhibit: Kent Larsen 26Oct00 A2 [From Mormon-News] LDS Artists Turns Family History Into Queens Museum of Art Exhibit QUEENS, NEW YORK -- LDS Artist Valerie Atkisson has taken her family history to a new level, integrating it with her artwork in a way that is garnering praise and attracting attention to her work. Atkisson's latest work, entitled "Family in Norway" opened Tuesday evening at the Queens Museum of Art in New York City. Her wall painting also inaugurates the museum's new Ramp and Wedge series, which takes advantage of wall space on a ramp connecting the museum's first and second floors. The exhibit space covers 80 square feet of wall space, stretching at its tallest the full height of the museum's two-story entrance. Atkisson, a resident of New York City, has an MFA from New York's prestigious School of Visual Arts. Her work has appeared in exhibits at the Bronx Museum of the Arts, Artists Space of New York, and d.u.m.b.o. Arts Center in Brooklyn, New York. Her art has been heavily influenced by her interest in family history, creating unique images that have attracted the attention of critics. But Atkisson goes farther with her family history research than most LDS Church members. She says, "What began as an interest in my ancestors has turned into an insatiable desire to know as much about them as possible and fill in the gaps of knowledge with my own impressions of their lives." Much of Atkisson's recent work has had a similar emphasis on her family history. Atkisson has therefore combined her genealogical research with background information information on the history and places where he ancestors lived, and then added her own impressions of their lives. Instead of a simple genealogical chart, she has created a unique "family biography," a mural that tries to convey the people and places in her family history. To create this particular work, which explores her Norweigan ancestry (Atkisson is 1/8th Norweigan), Atkisson traveled to Norway with the help of a grant from the Rema Hort Mann Foundation, which supports emerging artists. There she collected background information on the places where her ancestors lived and the history of those places while they lived there. The exhibit of Atkisson's "Family in Norway" runs through January 28th at the museum. The Queens Museum of Art is housed in the New York City building, one of the exhibition buildings left over from the 1964-1965 New York World's Fair. The museum is best known for its permanent exhibit, Panorama of the City of New York, the world's largest architectural scale model. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Culture in Mormon Lit Date: 30 Oct 2000 13:16:32 -0700 Best one ever: Margaret Young's story, God on Donahue. Love it. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] Mormonism and Internet Date: 27 Oct 2000 18:57:19 -0200 My first contact with the LDS Church was by the net...I entered in the LDS official site and asked for a Book of Mormon and the visit of the missionaries...Two days after I had missinaries at home...(God=B4s delivery) :-))) After receiveing the messages I decided to become a member of the Church. What do you think about the power of internet in contributing with the growth of the Church? Renato renatorigo@ig.com.br __________________________________________________________________________ Todo brasileiro tem direito a um e-mail gr=E1tis http://www.bol.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] Rodney TURNER, _This Eternal Earth_ (Review) Date: 29 Oct 2000 09:09:24 GMT Review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Rodney Turner, "This Eternal Earth"=20 Second edition, revised July 2000 (First edition published in 1983 under the title "The Footstool of God"= Granite Pubishing Hardback, 324 pages + index, $21.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle Let it be said at the outset that this is not your normal work of Mormon= =20 cosmology. It isn't what you'd hear in Sunday School; neither would it = be the topic of conversation at the after-church dinner table. This is = a=20 work of massive research and deep, limitless consideration of the subjec= t=20 matter. "This Eternal Earth" is a self-described "Scriptural and Prophetic=20 Biography." Drawing from esoteric early sources as well as the Standard= =20 Works, Turner pieces together a fascinating, if eclectic, view of the=20= place of Earth in the grand scheme of God. Turner begins with the thesis that the Earth itself is a living organism= =20 that, along with the human race, has "fallen" and needs "redemption." =20= Using the motif of the flood as the Earth's baptism, etc., he traces=20= mankind's history on this planet and presents the view that nature itsel= f=20 is in rebellion against God, thus explaining natural disasters and other= =20 "acts of God." Part One is titled "God and His Creations." While the Church has never,= =20 to my knowledge, issued an authoritative statement on the subject of=20= organic evolution, Turner dives head in and shows the utter=20 incompatibility of the current understanding of evolution with the=20 statements of Scripture and of the General Authorities of the Church. There is an extensive discussion of faith as a "power," an idea Joseph=20= Smith taught. And there is an extensive discussion of Kolob and the=20= Earth's spiritual beginnings in its realm. With Part Two, "The Earth," Turner enlarges on the idea of the planet as= =20 a living organism in need of redemption. This theme pervades the book=20= throughout; he returns to this point many times. Here is an example:= Earth is the mother of mothers; every living organism is comprised of=20= [sic] elements taken from her body. Whether man, the denizens of land, = sea, and sky or a microscopic organism =96 all are extensions of a livin= g=20 earth, a living soul, a life-producing planet. Orson Pratt asked the=20= rhetorical question, "What! Is the earth alive too?" He responded, "If= =20 it were not, how could the words of our text [Isaiah 51:6] be fulfilled,= =20 where it speaks of the earth's dying? How can that die that has no life= ?=20 (JD 1:281) (p. 58) And indeed, the earth must die, and be reborn as a celestial planet, hom= e=20 of those who are exalted into the Celestial Kingdom, from whence those=20= who achieve Godhood begin their own celestial families. I must confess that there were several points I'd never heard discussed = before. For example, in a discussion of the present location of the 10 = Tribes of Israel (both prominent theories =96 that they are located at t= he=20 Arctic Circle, and that they were translated, as was Enoch's city,=20 awaiting their return to earth), Turner reports an entry on the diary of= =20 one Charles L. Walker, a friend of Eliza R. Snow. (Turner cites Snow=20= extensively, not as evidence of the trueness of an idea, but rather=20 evidence that an idea had been sufficiently familiar to have prompted he= r=20 to write a poem.) At night paid Sister Eliza R. Snow a Short Visit and had some=20 conversation with her on the Dividing of the Earth. She told me that sh= e=20 heard the Prophet Joseph say that when the 10 tribes were taken away the= =20 Lord cut the Earth in two, Joseph striking his left hand in the center=20= with the edge of his right to illustrate the idea, and that they (the 1= 0=20 tribes) were on an orb or planet by themselves, and when they returned=20= with the portion of this Earth that was taken away with them, the coming= =20 together of these 2 bodies or orbs would cause a shock and make the=20 "Earth reel to and fro, like a drunken Man." She also stated that he=20= said the Earth was not [now] ninety times smaller now than when first=20= created or organized. (pg. 214-15) In a footnote, Turner elaborates: The statement that the earth is now ninety times smaller than its=20 original size may have been a misunderstanding on Walker's part since=20= another account indicates Eliza R. Snow said it was nine times smaller. = =20 Parley P. Pratt declared it to be several times smaller. (p 222) Fully 52 pages of this book consist of notes to the text. The work that= =20 went into writing this book is breathtaking. Underlying much of the book is Turner's urging of Latter-day Saints to=20= accept the teachings of inspiration over modern understandings of=20 science. This will not set well with some; indeed, many of the ideas=20= Turner advances don't seem possible, given our current scientific=20 knowledge. He does reject certain ideas when empirical evidence points = in the other direction. He rejects, for example, the idea that the 10=20= tribes are located at the North Pole. He reasons that our satellites=20= would have picked up some evidence of this by now. But he does place right before us the reality that early Mormonism was a= =20 virtual cornucopia of ideas and insights. And he spared no effort to=20= bring together literally hundreds of sources, some of them easily=20 available (like the Journal of Discourses), many not so easily (for=20 example, private diaries, etc.). =20 Anyone interested in such studies, as I am, will find this book to be a = wealth of information and reference. One need not accept Turner's=20 findings to enjoy his meticulous research and broad insights into the=20= place our planet, Earth, plays in the larger plan of God. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Utah High School: Date: 31 Oct 2000 00:07:36 EST Minneapolis MN Star-Tribune (Milwaukee Journal) 30Oct00 S2 [From Mormon-News] Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Utah High School OGDEN, UTAH -- News that a group of Mormon parents in Ogden, Utah have forced Ogden High School to scale back and postpone a planned production of the musical "Godspell" has made newspapers outside of Utah. The high school changed the production from a school-sponsored play, paid for with state money, to a student drama club production, paid for with donations. The Mormon parents, including Valerie Bentley-Ballif, whose 17-year-old son Chris wanted to be in the musical until he read the script, objected to the play, saying that it is offensive and "inappropriate" for a public school. "He wanted to be in the musical, until he read the script," says Bentley-Ballif. "And he said, 'Mom, I can't do this. This is offensive." The musical, which debuted on Broadway in 1971, tells the story of the life of Christ, loosely following the book of Matthew in the New Testament. However, the historical characters are represented by clowns in the musical. But the clowns also represent warring factions of society, and the play promotes tolerance and forgiveness. Bentley-Ballif said she found the portrayal of Christ's crucifixion as an electrocution on an electric fence, particularly offensive. "I'm not a zealot. But that was offensive." But she blames her frustration on school officials, who she says didn't give proper weight to the concerns of parents. "We just don't believe they care about how we feel. I'm not at all happy about it, nor were any of the other parents." Because of the concerns, the school distanced itself from the production, and principal Debbi Gomberg says most parents are satisfied with the solution. Students have 'hired' the school's drama director for the production, which will probably debut in January, instead of next week as originally planned. The play could also be further delayed because of ongoing negotiations. Unlike Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Jesus Christ, Superstar," LDS Church officials have never issued an official comment on "Godspell." "Jesus Christ, Superstar," a rock opera that is also about the life of Christ, drew a condemnation from the LDS Church's First Presidency when it was performed in Salt Lake City in October 1971. Source: High School 'Godspell' play draws protests St Louis MO Post (Salt Lake Tribune) 29Oct00 D4 http://www.postnet.com/postnet/News/wires.nsf/National/OC121895D99D9F9F8625698700657267?OpenDocument"> By Ashley Estes: Salt Lake Tribune >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Guest Bios for AML Writer's Conference Date: 31 Oct 2000 05:09:24 -0700 If you are on the following list, you have agreed to be a participant in one of the sessions of the AML writers conference on November 4th. Would you be so kind as to e-mail me privately with a paragraph-long description of yourself as you would like it to read in the program for the conference? Otherwise I may have to make up nasty things about you instead! I will need these as soon as possible, within day or two. Thank you very much. Kristen Randle Marilyn Brown Emily Watts Shauna Nelson Dave Wolverton Scott Parkin Ron Carter Sally Taylor Thom Duncan Eric Samuelsen Scott Bronson Natalie Prado John Bennion Rachel Nunes Anita Stansfield Tom Plummer Eric Snider Lance Larsen Steven Kapp Perry Richard Hopkins Kenny Kemp Elbert Peck Bob Ahlander Carol Lynch Williams -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: reid9 Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Utah High School: Date: 31 Oct 2000 08:48:10 -0600 > Terri - coming out of hiding to say: > "Bentley-Ballif said she found the portrayal of Christ's > crucifixion as an electrocution on an electric fence, > particularly offensive." Oh yes, being hung on a rough-hewn wooden cross with stakes nailed through your hands and feet and your heart literally breaking because of the pressure is much less offensive. I saw Godspell when it first opened in Chicago at the Goodman Theater (in the mid seventies)- it was wonderful - uplifting and spiritual. It made me cry and made me appreciate my Elder brother so much more for the sacrifice He made on my behalf. I just can't understand this blind condemnation. Of course, my kids have read Goosebumps and Harry Potter books too - so perhaps I'm just too liberal. ;) Terri Reid - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Rodney TURNER, _This Eternal Earth_ (Review) Date: 31 Oct 2000 07:57:51 -0700 Jeff Needel states: > While the Church has never, >to my knowledge, issued an authoritative statement on the subject of >organic evolution, Turner dives head in and shows the utter >incompatibility of the current understanding of evolution with the >statements of Scripture and of the General Authorities of the Church. The Church *has* given several authoritative pronouncemnts vis a vis Evolution. One in 1909, another in the 30's or so, and the final one by David O. McKay. I don't have them to offer (but can get them if anyone is interested). Also there is an extensive article on the subject in The Encyclopedi of Mormonism. The Church's "official" position is that it has no offical position. Just like one can now be a Democrat and a good Mormon (good for Eric Samuelsen ), one can also believe in Evolution and be a good Mormon, the metaphysical meanderings of Rodney Turner to the contrary notwithstanding. Thom Duncan My new email: ThomDuncan@prodigy.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Date: 31 Oct 2000 09:40:58 -0700 This has to be one of the most depressing things I've read this year. I = want to go home and pull the covers over my head and have a good cry. =20 Godspell is a terrific show. It's wonderfully reverential. I remember = seeing it in about '73- or '74, and it was one of the shows that made me = want to go on a mission. =20 I don't want to judge these parents who objected to the piece. Obviously = they have concerns that seem valid to them. And perhaps the show is = inappropriate for a high school. I can see someone arguing that it = crosses the church/state boundary lines for a high school to do a show so = sublimely Christian. But I suspect that that wasn't the objection. =20 Folks, do you ever get like this, so depressed by certain manifestations = of cultural Mormonism that you don't even want to call yourself a Mormon = anymore? Do you ever feel so utterly estranged from Mormon culture that = you begin to wonder if there's a place, even a tiny little unlit corner, = where you can belong, where you too can fit in? =20 Most of the time, I don't let things like this get to me. I mostly love = my ward, for example. And then I go to, for example, Stake Cultural = Night, and the entire evening there's only one performance that's even a = little bit interesting or uplifting or, to me, valuable, and that's the = one number that everyone is complaining about on their way to the parking = lot. Or you hear about a community getting upset about Godspell. =20 My spiritual home is in the Church; that's true now and forever. But my = cultural home is increasingly outside the Church. And I find that = terribly depressing. =20 It's a rainy day,and my foot hurts, and my daughter saw to it, last night, = that our normal level of sleep deprivation would be increased exponentially= . But golly gracious sakes alive, this is a depressing headline to read = early in the morning. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Wizard of Oz Query Date: 31 Oct 2000 11:30:20 -0700 I have a student in freshman writing who wrote an informative paper all about the Wizard of Oz analogy involving the politics of Baum's time (silver currency, farmer and worker politics, the presidential election, etc.). She presented it as her own thoughts, but I'm sure it came from somewhere---I remember people referring to it when we were talking about Wizard of Oz analogies here. To help this student not plagiarize, does anyone know the author and title of the book or article in which these ideas were set forth? Thanks, Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm