From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: [AML] Wizard of Oz Query Date: 31 Oct 2000 18:03:25 -0500 Chris wrote: >To help this student not plagiarize, does anyone know the author and >title of the book or article in which these ideas were set forth? Here's the source for this interpretation: Henry M. Littlefield, "The Wizard of Oz, Parable on Populism," _American Quarterly_, 16 (1964): 47-58. Here's an online source for the original article (unfortunately sans footnotes): http://www.amphigory.com/oz.htm Here's an interesting piece that includes a slightly transformed version of the "standard" political analysis: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june98/silver_2-25.html Littlefield's original interpretation hasn't gone without challenge: http://www.halcyon.com/piglet/Populism.htm But as far as alternate interpretations of _The Wizard of Oz_ go, I'm much more fond of the theory that holds Pink Floyd's album _Dark Side of the Moon_ can be used as a soundtrack to the Oz film. Lotsa fun: http://www.greenpointusa.com/FLOYD.HTM The Floyd disc probably wouldn't sync as well with the book... 8^) Eric D. Dixon "I visited East Germany several times, beginning in 1977. It was appalling. I would not have believed that a political regime could have such an effect on the spirit of a country as to make the grass grey. Even for several years after the Wall came down, the grass was grey. Everything was grey." -- Robert Fripp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Internet Date: 31 Oct 2000 16:08:24 -0700 >> What do you think about the power of internet in >> contributing with the growth of the Church? >> Renato I heard someone comment recently that one reason God allowed for the Internet is so it can help get all that genealogy get done more efficiently. I think it's wonderful that it contributes as well to bringing fine people like you into the Church! I was tracted out by two missionaries who were slogging dutifully from apartment to apartment on a bitter January evening--I was definitely a cold contact! I also love the fact that I can listen to Conference now over my computer. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: maryjanejones@att.net Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Utah HighSchool: Minneapolis MN Star-Tribune (Milwaukee Journal) Date: 01 Nov 2000 01:18:41 +0000 This was definitely one of the saddest articles I've seen in a long time. Back in high school, the Christian (and decidedly anti-Mormon) high school I attended in Korea decided to put on a production of Godspell. At the time I was deeply involved in drama, and auditioned for the show. I was given a role, I read the script, and must admit that I too was bothered at first (mostly by the crucifixtion scene mentioned in the article). Then I got my head on straight and did some serious praying about the play and the script. I decided to stay in the production and make it a good experience. It was the best theatrical experience I've ever, ever had. Not only was it incredibly fun, it was uplifting and very spiritual. I remember during one evening performance the tears just streaming down my face during the crucifixion scene, accompanied by a feeling of immeasurable gratitude to the Savior. In fact, performing in that show was probably the spiritual highlight of my high school days. I'd never felt so close to Christ as when I was daily rehearsing scenes from his life and his teachings. Godspell is a beautiful work, with beautiful songs. I still listen to the soundtrack when I need some cheering. Part of the beauty of the script is that the players are given so much freedom to really create their own show. No two productions of Godspell are ever quite alike. I can see how some interpretations might go beyond the bounds of what most LDS people are comfortable with, but all the interpretations I've ever seen have been wonderfully moving. I applaud the students for finding a way to make their production work, and I hope they find the experience as positive as I did. Mary Jane Jones mjjones@xelent.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Utah High Date: 31 Oct 2000 20:45:51 -0500 At 12:07 AM 10/31/2000 EST, you wrote: >The Mormon parents, including Valerie Bentley-Ballif, >whose 17-year-old son Chris wanted to be in the musical >until he read the script, objected to the play, saying that >it is offensive and "inappropriate" for a public school. "He >wanted to be in the musical, until he read the script," says >Bentley-Ballif. "And he said, 'Mom, I can't do this. This is >offensive." Fine. Why didn't he "not do it"? That would be HIS choice. [snip] >Bentley-Ballif said she found the portrayal of Christ's >crucifixion as an electrocution on an electric fence, >particularly offensive. "I'm not a zealot. But that was >offensive." The heck she's not a zealot. As far as I am concerned SHE is offensive. Sometimes I am embarrassed to share the same church membership with people who feel they have the right to micromanage the activities of others. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Utah High Date: 31 Oct 2000 19:12:01 -0700 on 10/31/00 7:48 AM, reid9 at reid9@midwest.net wrote: >> "Bentley-Ballif said she found the portrayal of Christ's >> crucifixion as an electrocution on an electric fence, >> particularly offensive." I already wrote a big response to this issue when it first came up, so I don't think I can muster the energy to rebut it again... check the archives, and it makes me sad that the parents would react this way. Have they seen the play? The article mentions the son reading it and being offended... no it wouldn't work in sacrament meeting--thats why it's being done at a theater. "Godspell" is high on my list of stuff I wish I'd written. Steve _ _ _ _ _ skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] AML List Date: 31 Oct 2000 19:38:00 -0700 Yes Ruth, I know. Gosh, Barry Monroe can't pull anything over on these Berkeley.edu folks. And I basically agree with Martindale that the Bavarians and Austrians are not too far apart (I not speaking for the Tiroler, Steier, Voralberger, or Carinthians) as compared with the Bavarians and the Saxons or Berliners. But that is much further apart than the Canadians and the Americans IMO. But these are separate countries folks! Last January after a few days visiting my sister in Bavaria, we took the train to Salzburg and as we got off the train, I breathed a sign of relief that I was no longer in a foreign country. Just read Angel of the Danube and you'll get it. Alan Mitchell >Wait a sec... Hitler was the Austrian, and Beethoven, the wandering tenant >of Grinzing (not too far from the Vienna mission house) from Bonn... The >way I hear usually hear this joke it's that the _Austrians_ would like to >pretend H. was the German and B. the Austrian. > >Or did you mean this and I'm just being dense? > >--Ruth - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Rodney TURNER, _This Eternal Earth_ (Review) Date: 31 Oct 2000 20:29:54 -0700 >With Part Two, "The Earth," Turner enlarges on the idea of the planet as >a living organism in need of redemption. This theme pervades the book >throughout; he returns to this point many times. Here is an example: > >Earth is the mother of mothers; every living organism is comprised of >[sic] elements taken from her body. Whether man, the denizens of land, >sea, and sky or a microscopic organism -- all are extensions of a living >earth, a living soul, a life-producing planet. Orson Pratt asked the >rhetorical question, "What! Is the earth alive too?" He responded, "If >it were not, how could the words of our text [Isaiah 51:6] be fulfilled, >where it speaks of the earth's dying? How can that die that has no life? >(JD 1:281) (p. 58) Lovelock's new (20 years old) theory of Gaia, or the earth or biosphere, as a single living entity is often used by ecologists as well as transcendentalists. As we realize from the current theory of global warming based on enriched CO2, some things like CO2 are spread throughout the whole earth and effect everything. Dust from the Sahara falls on the Amazon. A butterfly's wings in China influence weather in California. Lovelock compared the components of the earth with the components of our bodies. Somehow, they all fit together and it doesn't necessarily take consious thought for our bodies (perhaps 10percent bateria) to work. The earth may be the same, some ecologists think. The artificial Biosphere II experiment showed that more than a small enclosed (several acres) is necessary to support life. Everything is related to everything else, ecologists say. Is this Gaia concept new to the AML list? Will Eric Samuelseon (note double vowel to avoid offending Scandanavians) soon write a play about mother earth? Will Eric Snider pan it? Will I get my essay done before Ed Snow muses about wiping our mother's tears? Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Allred Subject: [AML] Lee ALLRED, "The Greatest Danger" Date: 31 Oct 2000 20:14:26 -0700 In the Blowing My Own Horn category... The short story SF anthology _DRAKAS!_ went on sale today. The anthology includes my novelette "The Greatest Danger." _DRAKAS!_ is an anthology of short stories written by several top national market SF writers like Harry Turtledove and David Drake (and a few lesser lights like myself ), but set in the fictional "Draka" alternate history universe of SF author S. M. Stirling. Um, I've been a bit hesitant to mention the project before this to the List. The "Draka" fictional universe is a "dystopia." Whereas a utopia is often written to show the best possible society, a dystopia shows the worst possible. The Drakas are brutal, sadistic, racist slavers that make even Nazis look good. It was a bit of a challenge working in a milieu like that, and still writing a story that--well, let's just say a story I could live with having written. (And I wrote about the Good Draka!) That having been said, I do think the story might be of interest to many AML-List members. I characterize "The Greatest Danger" as a philosophic grudge match between Nietzsche vs. Lorenzo Snow with tanks and guns thrown in. There aren't any Mormons in the story, but (to paraphrase an old definition of science fiction) if you take Mormonism out of the story, there isn't any story. DRAKAS! ed. by S. M. Stirling Baen Books ISBN 0-671-31945-9 $6.99 --Lee Lee Allred leea@sff.net www.leeallred.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden,Utah High School: Date: 31 Oct 2000 20:10:09 -0800 We have a man in our ward who is much like you, and he is a breath of fresh air. (I seem to be hung up on fresh air this week.) You can always count on him for some thought-provoking point-of-view. (Which is sometimes hard to pull off in our ward; we have the stake president and one of his counselors in our Sunday school class, and this man is the Gospel Doctrine teacher. They watch him very carefully.) He's often a lone voice, but it's amazing how much influence this man has in our ward. I have tremendous admiration for him. Maybe you are the much-needed light in your world. I can imagine it's lonely though. Sorry. -Beth Hatch "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > > This has to be one of the most depressing things I've read this year. I want to go home and pull the covers over my head and have a good cry. > > Godspell is a terrific show. It's wonderfully reverential. I remember seeing it in about '73- or '74, and it was one of the shows that made me want to go on a mission. > > I don't want to judge these parents who objected to the piece. Obviously they have concerns that seem valid to them. And perhaps the show is inappropriate for a high school. I can see someone arguing that it crosses the church/state boundary lines for a high school to do a show so sublimely Christian. But I suspect that that wasn't the objection. > > Folks, do you ever get like this, so depressed by certain manifestations of cultural Mormonism that you don't even want to call yourself a Mormon anymore? Do you ever feel so utterly estranged from Mormon culture that you begin to wonder if there's a place, even a tiny little unlit corner, where you can belong, where you too can fit in? > > Most of the time, I don't let things like this get to me. I mostly love my ward, for example. And then I go to, for example, Stake Cultural Night, and the entire evening there's only one performance that's even a little bit interesting or uplifting or, to me, valuable, and that's the one number that everyone is complaining about on their way to the parking lot. Or you hear about a community getting upset about Godspell. > > My spiritual home is in the Church; that's true now and forever. But my cultural home is increasingly outside the Church. And I find that terribly depressing. > > It's a rainy day,and my foot hurts, and my daughter saw to it, last night, that our normal level of sleep deprivation would be increased exponentially. But golly gracious sakes alive, this is a depressing headline to read early in the morning. > > Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: [AML] Wizard of Oz Query Date: 31 Oct 2000 23:00:39 -0500 I suggest you call Books of Wonder here in New York City. They are hands down the experts on the Wizard of Oz and could probably point you to the book where this kind of research was published. Kent - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] Wizard of Oz Query Date: 31 Oct 2000 21:33:14 -0600 The Wizard of Oz has been interpreted several ways from the view of politics and populism. Here are some references: "The Wizard of Oz: Parable on Populism" by Henry M. Littlefield orig published in American Quarterly, XVI, (1964), pages 47 -58. "The Rise and Fall of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz as a 'Parable on Populism'" by David B. Parker published in Journal of the Georgia Association of Historians, Vol 15 (1994), pages 49-63. This article can be read at this link: http://www.halcyon.com/piglet/Populism.htm These articles will be fairly clear about where your student got her ideas. The first article was the big one that started the interpretation during the sixties, the second article is some historical squabbling about whether the intepretation is valid. I don't think the theory is all one way of the other, but possibly a mix of both. I actually have a friend who was taught about the Oz populism theory in her American History class at the U of U. Hope this helps; I would love to see your student's face when faced with possible plargirism. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Wizard of Oz Query Date: 31 Oct 2000 22:43:46 -0500 Chris, I'm not sure about the Baum angle, but I did hear something in NPR a few years back about the song writer for the film. His name is Yip Harburg and he was a big time socialist, wrote "Brother Can You Spare a Dime." I'll bet you can find out something on that angle. I hope that helps. Alas, plagiarism in the era of digital sampling. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: RE: [AML] Rodney TURNER, _This Eternal Earth_ (Review) Date: 31 Oct 2000 20:25:30 -0800 At 07:57 AM 10/31/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Jeff Needel states: > > > While the Church has never, > >to my knowledge, issued an authoritative statement on the subject of > >organic evolution, Turner dives head in and shows the utter > >incompatibility of the current understanding of evolution with the > >statements of Scripture and of the General Authorities of the Church. > >The Church *has* given several authoritative pronouncemnts vis a vis >Evolution. One in 1909, another in the 30's or so, and the final one by >David O. McKay. I don't have them to offer (but can get them if anyone is >interested). Also there is an extensive article on the subject in The >Encyclopedi of Mormonism. > >The Church's "official" position is that it has no offical position. Yeah, I guess that's what I meant to say -- they haven't made an official statement pro or con? >Just like one can now be a Democrat and a good Mormon (good for Eric >Samuelsen ), one can also believe in Evolution and be a good Mormon, the >metaphysical meanderings of Rodney Turner to the contrary notwithstanding. > >Thom Duncan >------------------------------------ >My new email: ThomDuncan@prodigy.net >------------------------------------ Thanks for the clarification, Thom. Now, can I direct you to my music site? It is clearly, and unambiguously, uninspired! --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Internet Date: 01 Nov 2000 00:38:01 -0700 renatorigo wrote: > What do you think about the power of internet in > contributing with the growth of the Church? The Internet, like any other powerful tool, can cut both ways. On television you can watch General Conference and South Park. Through the Internet, someone could be brought to the Gospel, like you, Renato. Yet when you look up "LDS" on search engines, you'll bring up a zillion anti-Mormon sites. But that's life--not only here, but in the eternities. The only way to achieve greatness is to take great risks. Humans by virtue of their free agency have the potential to gain the celestial kingdom or be thrust down to hell. The only ones who can become sons of perdition are those who have risen to profound spiritual heights. Satan before his fall was Lucifer, an angel of light and a personage of great influence in the premortal existence. As Pilate says to Judah in the film _Ben-Hur_, where great power is, error is also great. I guess that's why the prerequisite to wielding ultimate, godlike power is perfection. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormonism and Internet Date: 01 Nov 2000 00:59:48 -0700 I have an online-only acquaintance who is currently on the 4th discussion and has been to church in his local ward both of the last 2 weeks. Without the Net he wouldn't have found the Church. With the Net he can me ask all sorts of questions he's not comfortable asking the missionaries. More and more the line between "online" acquaintance and "real life" acquaintance is blurring into insignificance. [Scott Tarbet] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Utah High School: Minneapolis MN Star-Tribune (Milwaukee Journal) Date: 01 Nov 2000 01:12:07 -0700 I constantly have to remind myself not to let the narrow minded define my perception of what is culturally Mormon. To paraphrase the Savior, the extremists will always be with us -- we just can't abdicate to them and allow them to define who we are as a people. The rest of us need to be careful to avoid cultural cowardice. [Scott Tarbet] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Music Date: 01 Nov 2000 00:31:00 -0800 On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 D. Michael Martindale writes: > I am reminded of an experience the owner of my recording studio had. > He produced a CD of church hymns with his own unique and > nontraditional arrangements. One day a gentlemen got in touch with > him and scolded him for not using the "approved" arrangements in > the hymnal. The issue to this gentleman wasn't that he disliked the > new arrangements and preferred the hymnal's versions. The issue was > that the studio owner violated some Gospel principle for composing > his own arrangements. _That's_ the sort of thing I'm talking about. > > At worst, we "elitist" artists accuse the "unwashed masses" in the > church of aesthetic naivety and representing important things in > simplistic terms because their tastes don't coincide with ours. But > they all to often accuse us of something approaching immorality > because our tastes don't coincide with theirs. That's the thing > irritates me the most about this little feud going on in LDS culture. Excellent point, D. Michael. Feuds, culture wars--whatever battle metaphor we use--pain me deeply. I love my culture and want to learn from it and give to it. I enjoy creating richly textured work with lots of puns and irrelevant ("What's gray, has four legs and a trunk but no key?" (of course this may be hard to understand without noting that it takes place in a courtroom--Chico is addressing the judge and Groucho replies with, "Your honor, that's irrelevant." "That's exactly what it is," Chico says. Which brings to mind my poignant ("What do you mean I gave a poignant performance? I ain't even married?") final image of Groucho. He left a hefty sum to a young woman--perhaps he had married her--and the family was suing her to get the money back, claiming she had duped him into including her in the will. She showed a videotaped deposition from Groucho at the trial, old and frail (but maybe younger than my father now, who I hate thinking of as an old man) declaring himself of sound mind and that he had left her the money of his own will. I think she lost the case) stuff. That's what I love, the stuffing, the texture, taste, bread soaked in water and juices. Kenneth Burke (major 20th century critic perhaps better known as Harry Chapin's grandpa, Chapin set one of his poems to music on _Dance Band on the Titanic_) has a striking image in his essay "Literature as Equipment for Living," in which he says that a lot of poor art lies to us about culture, is like a man sitting on the edge of an active volcano and telling the people below that it's a green meadow. I wondered aloud at the AML meeting a few years back whether Burke doesn't assign too much responsibility to artists. The flip side of his argument is that if artists have this tremendous responsibility to equip us, give us stragegies for coping with life, then the artist who does this poorly is immoral, which sounds akin to the attitude D. Michael talks about above. I don't like living in a culture at war with itself (isn't that called mortality, or the human condition?), but I keep wondering how much of our mistrust of art and artists comes from the way artists and critics image art's purpose and nature. I just suggested at the RMMLA convention that the image of art as dangerous--as challenge to society--is the dominant image of litcrit in the last 50 years, and that we need to change our imagery if we're going to create the kind of art and culture we need to. (How's that for vague?) This is a recurring theme in my work lately. I spent a good deal of my writing time the first quarter of last year on an essay called "Lucid Dreaming," to which I immediately appended another essay, calling it a two-part invention for my father. (Then it became a triptych--now I suppose it's a quartet (although that's an overused metaphor from T.S. Eliot to T.T. Williams--maybe I could use some variations on SATB (bats, tabs, stab)) or some other image of a foursome.) Hmm, is it kosher to end a post with a close parenthesis? (Of course, in asking that I remember an article about the symbols various companies use to certify that they have inspected a food company's products and found them kosher. The author (or magazine editor) noted that he could not vouch for the kashruth of the companies that were using said symbols to certify the food's kashruth. Talk about culture wars. I think it's Bob Newhart who has the phone monologues where a man's talking to a rabbi, repeating what the rabbi is telling him, to make sure he has it correct, "Oh, Reformed Jews aren't Jews?") Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: reid9 Subject: [AML] Bearing Cultural Witness (was: MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell") Date: 01 Nov 2000 08:34:24 -0600 I can't believe that I'm responding two days in a row! Yes, I get depressed, and sometimes frustrated, when I see members of my ward - people I love- either blindly following or passively ignoring. Somtimes I wish I could go back in time (and bring my brothers and sisters back with me) to enjoy an early Sacrament Meeting where the members would speak in tongues or shout. "Amen, Brother Joseph!" Boy, that would sure open some eyes. :) I remember a couple of years ago, sitting in a Relief Society Lesson about the evils of the media - being a journalist, I always enjoy these lessons.;) Then, one of the sisters commented on the evils of the Goosebumps series of children's books. She knew that they were of the devil and Scholoastic was trying to turn the children of the world into Satan Worshippers. Many of the sisters nodded in agreement - oh, yes, they had heard about these awful books too. So, I raised my hand and asked how many of these sisters had actually read one of the books. No response. Perhaps, just glanced through one? Nobody. Talked with a librarian? Uh, no. Then I explained that I had read six of the books (they really are an easy read) before I let my children read them. I found them to be scary, but like an old black and white horror flick scary. Some were a little gross - but, boys loved them. And good triumphed over evil - although there were a couple of cliff hangers that had you looking under your bed before you went to sleep at night. They were fun! Not evil! And, if they pulled my boys into reading - they were wonderful. The sisters agreed sheepishly with me. I offered to let them read any of the books that we had. Okay, the worst part of this situation. Not one sister borrowed a book - but they all stopped complaining about them, because Sister Reid said that they were fine. Well, dang it (sorry for the harsh words!) what if I was in league with Satan that day? What if they were awful? What if they were supposed to read them and gain a testimony for themselves? To me, this is the scariest situation in the church. Had we been in Illinois, Ohio, or New York - would we, in our present states of mind, followed the prophet? Would we have listened to this man who said he saw Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father in his backyard? Or would we have asked someone else what they thought? okay, sorry, stepping down from my soapbox.....:o And how can we - as authors - help change this situation (bringing back to an AML kind of discussion.) Terri - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marie Knowlton" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Utah High School: Minneapolis MN Star-Tribune (Milwaukee Journal) Date: 01 Nov 2000 08:26:09 MST RE:"Godspell" -- Let me preface these remarks by noting that I'm a convert from California and have been involved in theatre most of my life. Thus, I"m seeing this issue from a viewpoint outside the standard LDS culture in which most of us have been raised. Now, to the point: "Godspell" can be an extremely reverent production, capable of inspiring both spiritual introspection and renewed appreciation for the personal nature of the Atonement and the fact that the Savior's love and teachings span all cultures and dispensations. Much of this, however, depends on the director's interpretation, and the feeling that the cast brings to the show. I've been involved with several productions of this show, both in and out of Utah, with people of all faiths (and sometimes very little faith of any sort), and have, in all cases, found it to be a positive experience for both us and the audiences. There are those, however, who will be shocked and offended by any but the strictest traditional interpretation of the events portrayed. The Gospel is true, whether we choose to dress our actors in robes and sing medieval chants, or we choose to costume them in overalls and add modern music and dance to our message. I find it sad that some people have such an narrow frame of reference that they only find the message acceptable if it is presented in a way that soothes their cultural biases. Go, "Godspell"! [Marie Knowlton] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Moderator Note: Signing Posts Date: 01 Nov 2000 10:02:00 -0600 Folks, Just a reminder to everyone to sign your posts. When a post is unsigned, but I can figure out the name from the headers, I generally add the name in brackets at the end of the post. However, this can sometimes lead to incorrect names--for example, if someone is sending a message on someone else's (spouse, child) e-mail account. If I can't find a name, I have to send back the post for a name to be added. Glad to have everyone's contributions. We seem to be in another upswing of fruitful conversation with many different topics and participants. It's great! Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 01 Nov 2000 10:09:31 -0500 I understand that lots of people are mad about all this "Godspell" business, but isn't their right to be conservative just as secure a liberty as our right to be liberal? Or do we want a sort of fascism (which is not, at its root, a conservative position)? I personally dislike the play, but lots of people love it. I'm not much of a Hair/Godspell/Jesus-Christ Superstar/Phantom of the Opera/Les Miserables/Miss Saigon/Cats fan at all. In fact I fell asleep in Cats on Broadway in 1987. Give me Sondheim any day. Still, I get a little concerned when liberal church members don't seem to even try and understand the position (and yes, the limitations) of people who don't respond well to things like this Godspell issue. I personally think Godspell ought not to be performed in ANY public school ANYWHERE. It causes red flags about religion and education to go up that obsure the more important debate of prayer in the schools and our country's relationship to deity. By this I mean to say that the fight to keep some moral core in operation doesn't need split fronts. This doesn't mean that Godspell should never be done, maybe just not right now. Richard B. Johnson wrote: > The heck she's not a zealot. As far as I am concerned SHE is offensive. > Sometimes I am embarrassed to share the same church membership with people > who feel they have the right to micromanage the activities of others. It's not as if liberal-types never try to micromanage anything. I am sometimes embarrassed that liberal intellectuals (or the like) in our church sometimes have the tendency to castigate people for believing in something, even if it is different from what we believe. This spirit can make us all seem unforgiving, unkind, and distant from our neighbors, which is not the case for most of us in my opinion, but there are a few castigators who boom the loudest, and thus liberal thinkers become bitter malcontents in the eyes of the castigated. This doesn't solve any problems I don't think. In fact, I think that sometimes we're trying to be "cooler than thou," and is that any better, ultimately, than "holier"? Do I practice this "cooler than thou" stuff. I think I do, sometimes. My fiancee seems to think so. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Wizard of Oz Date: 01 Nov 2000 12:41:47 -0500 For those of us who sometimes detect the stench of web-based plagiarism, the following website may assist in tracking down the original source: http://www.findsame.com/ As for the Wizard of Oz, I remember a play at BYU that linked the emerald city with the celestial kingdom and going through the temple. It was okay. For a long time, people who drove the interstate system around Washington DC could look forward to a beautiful view of the spectacular D.C. temple. Just as it came into view, someone had painted on an overpass that framed the vista: "Turn Back Dorothy!" When my wife and I saw the graffiti, one of us (okay, it was me) said, "If they really wanted to be mean, they should have written, 'Pay no attention to the man behind the veil.'" Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] E-books Date: 29 Oct 2000 16:53:48 -0700 Yes, I am aware of such sites. The problem is, of course, that someone has to do some effective marketing to the proper audience so that the people who would like to read your book can know that it's there. barbara hume At 06:42 PM 10/23/00 -0200, you wrote: >3. After putting the book in the site , the e-book will >be avaible for download all over the world and people >will pay a low price for the book...The value is divided >between the publisher and the writer... - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Rodney TURNER, _This Eternal Earth_ (Review) Date: 01 Nov 2000 10:58:08 -0700 The ever prescient Alan Mitchell wrote: >Will Eric Samuelseon (note double >vowel to avoid offending Scandanavians) soon write a play >about mother earth? I started it this last May. Put it on the back burner for a few months, while I did more research, but will return to it as soon as I clear up a couple of other projects. It's an absolutely marvelous subject for drama. >Will Eric Snider pan it? I'll do my part; i have no doubt my fellow Eric S will do his :} Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose Date: 01 Nov 2000 11:55:24 -0700 (MST) > > >Bentley-Ballif said she found the portrayal of Christ's > >crucifixion as an electrocution on an electric fence, > >particularly offensive. "I'm not a zealot. But that was > >offensive." > > The heck she's not a zealot. As far as I am concerned SHE is offensive. > Sometimes I am embarrassed to share the same church membership with people > who feel they have the right to micromanage the activities of others. > > > Richard B. Johnson Yes - but I also share American society with zealots of all stripes - if I was a Baptist or a Muslim I would share my religion or society or culture with zealots. I had a problem with this for awhile until I realized that 80% of the people in the church are fine, moderate types who don't get upset by this sort of thing - what we are doing is letting the vocal minority get the better of us. Until we all wind up in the Celestial (or wherever) kingdom - there will always be zealots, weirdos, and generally unpleasent people in (and out) of the church. These people who opposse Godspell are the exception, not the rule - but they're so vocal they get more media attention, pulpit time, etc. than they really deserve, so they seem more pervasive than they really are. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] (Curiouser & Curiouser) Mormon.Outlet.Shopping.Com Date: 02 Nov 2000 01:19:42 -0600 CURIOUSER & CURIOUSER: MORMON MUSINGS Mormon.Outlet.Shopping.Com by Edgar C. Snow, Jr. Got Mormon Stuff? Announcing Mormon.Outlet.Shopping.Com!! Yes, now you can surf for premium discontinued Mormon merchandise online!! It has never been easier!! Here's a sampling from our online catalogue!! Everything's 50% off!! Remember--you don't even have to pay tithing on the savings!! Enjoy!! **Mormonart Products** Trevor Southey Dinner Placemats. Who says artistic nudity can't be enjoyed at dinnertime? Now you can serve meals with an aesthetic message. Children can learn their body parts as they wait for casseroles and also ponder the meanings of Southey's enigmatic floral symbology!! Calvin Grondahl Sacrament Meeting Program Covers. Still looking for a way to magnify your calling as the Ward Sacrament Meeting Program Person? Now is your chance with these whimsically inspiring cartoon covers. Each one has a theological theme that can easily be tied to meeting topics. Minerva Teichert Lunchboxes. Do you need birthday gifts for Primary children? Kids of all ages love these colorful renditions of Book of Mormon events by muralist Minerva Teichert, now in portable lunchbox format. Does not include thermos. Included with the first 1,000 orders is a package of Arnold Friberg Book of Mormon character puffy stickers. Kids love stickers!! C.C.A. Christensen Bedspreads and Draperies. Originally designed as murals to accompany Brother Christensen's lectures on Mormon history, these paintings are now meticulously reproduced on 100% virgin polyester bedspreads and drapes that go with any decor! **Franklin/Covey Mint Products** Urim and Thummim with Detachable Breastplate Day Planner. Set beautifully in a silver-plated bow attached to an oversized copper breastplate-shaped Day Planner are two lead crystal stones that feature LCD messages for your family ("Don't forget to do your home teaching," among others). Stones also glow in the dark. Batteries not included. Hugh Nibley with Jawbone of an Ass Bookends. A perfect conversation piece, these sturdy bookends portray Brother Nibley as a modern-day Samson reminding us all that the pen is mightier than the jawbone of an ass when it comes to fighting anti-Mormon literature. Ammon Disarming Lamanites Piggybank. This porcelain covered die-cast metal piggybank is a great way for youngsters to save money for a mission. As each coin is inserted into the bank, Ammon strikes seven blows, literally disarming his Lamanite foes! Complementing the visual effects of this wonderful piggybank is special embedded computer chip technology that adds audio effects with a result that rivals the Hill Cumorah Pageant itself. Steve/Brigham Young This is the Place/In Your Face Touchdown Pass Figurine. Patterned after the design of the character "Two-Face" in Batman comics, one half of this porcelain figurine depicts Brigham Young, his arm outstretched toward Salt Lake Valley, while the other half depicts Brother Brigham's great great grandson poised to hurl a 49er touchdown pass. Belshazzar Smiting Knees Lamp. Every time your youngster turns on the light, s/he will be vividly reminded of the consequences of wine, wo/men and song. Flip the light switch and the king's loins are loosed and his knees smite together as the following message is backlit on the wall: "MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN." **Lighthouse Ministry Products** Gerald and Sandra Tanner Pioneer Figurine. This Ilardo-quality porcelain figurine features Gerald and Sandra Tanner, those endearing anti-Mormon pioneers, pulling a handcart piled high with their many ground- and wind-breaking publications. Solomon Spaulding True Author of the Book of Mormon! Figurine. One of the few artistic depictions of the good Reverend Spaulding available!! Handpainted!! The first 1,000 orders will receive copies of the Hurlbut affidavits claiming Spaulding was the true author of the Book of Mormon, reproduced on artificially aged parchment paper. Suitable for framing in an office or den! Changes to the Book of Mormon Day Calendar. This handy 15-year calendar displays a different change per day to the original Book of Mormon printed in 1830 by Mr. Grandin. Available in black, orange, and BYU blue and white. Also available in Daytimer/Planner formats. Kinderhook Plates Wallpaper. Line your anti-Mormon bookstore with this attractively designed Kinderhook Plates wallpaper. Those little smiley faces on these forged artifacts intended as a practical joke will lift the spirits of even the most angry apostate customer. Facsimile No. 3 Handkerchief. 100% cotton. Facsimile No. 3 from the Book of Abraham is printed on the front while the back is printed with a D.J. Nelson anti-Mormon affidavit and his self-taught decipherment of Facsimile No. 3. Perfect for wiping flecks of foam from the mouth of that rabid anti-Mormon in your life!! ===== Among best sellers, Barnes & Noble ranks _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ in its top 100 (thousand, that is). Available now at 10% off http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD& mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] November Editorial: Six Months Date: 02 Nov 2000 01:49:15 -0600 When I first started as List moderator six months ago, I had the great idea of putting out a monthly "editorial." That lasted, I think, about a month. I've been too busy since, simply trying to keep the List running--together with juggling all of family, work, etc.--all those things everyone on this List and everyone in Mormon letters has to deal with one way or another. I'm a little disappointed in my own performance as List moderator. Mostly, I wish I'd had the time to go forward with some of the ideas I had at the beginning of my tenure. Like a regular, every-two-weeks forum for talking about a particular literary work--not quite a book-of-the-fortnight club, but something similar, if a little looser for our List format. Like some of the other columns I was planning to pursue. There just hasn't been the time. I very much appreciate those who have done their bit to keep the conversation moving forward. Jana Remy, our book reviews coordinator. Andrew Hall, who's done the Andrew's Polls that have sparked so much good discussion. Larry Jackson, who forwards posts from the Mormon News list. Eric Samuelsen, who's put in several columns about drama. Ed Snow, our resident humorist. Terry Jeffress, who manages the AML Web site. Marny Parkin, who took over the handling of the AML-List Highlights for Irreantum that I had to give up when I became moderator. And Ben Parkinson, who continues as official list owner and administrator, handling all the technical stuff. And all of you. The conversation is only as good as its members, and the members of AML-List are the best thing about it. In my opinion. I'd close with a plea that as we exchange our opinions, we do so with a will not to be offended nor to offend, but to share our thoughts and beliefs openly, honestly, thoughtfully, moderately. That we be generous to those with whom we disagree, even when the disagreement is profound. That we not consider any one issue or point more important than the environment that makes the conversation possible. Everyone on this List, I think, is here in part because we believe that literature is an important thing. Most if not all of us believe as well in the value of a community of Mormon letters and wish to contribute to the development of that community. That purpose is best served, I think, by an atmosphere in which we speak our mind--and perhaps more important, our heart--but where we listen and hear as well. I also ask that you bear with me. If I've offended, please know it was unintentional. And thanks for the experience. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Subject: [AML] Introductions: Ruth (was: AML List) Date: 02 Nov 2000 00:08:45 -0800 Alan Mitchell wrote: > Yes Ruth, I know. Gosh, Barry Monroe can't pull anything over on these > Berkeley.edu folks. Okay, okay, so I _am_ being dense. But I asked not so I could be the berkeley.edu smarty-pants, but because I figured I was missing something knowing that the author of _Angel of the Danube_ knew all about Austria. Pardon my ignorance, but who's Barry Monroe? [MOD: I should add that I also have no idea who Barry Monroe is. But then, I'm both forgetful and notoriously uninformed when it comes to popular culture...] I guess I should also say why there's good reason for my presumption of confusion with respect to this list, where in fact I often find myself unable to follow a thread. I'm not Mormon, but Jewish. I joined AML about 7 or 8 months ago because I'm interested in Mormon letters and wanted to better inform myself about newer Mormon authors. I've since read Ed Snow's _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ and loved it, I was interested in _Dancing Naked_, but have some literary (aesthetic, not moral --remember that thread?) reservations about it, was curious when John Bennion mentioned his new novel, but remain uncertain where to get it, and was in fact _very_ interested to read your book, Alan, but also couldn't figure out how to get it until you posted the order form on the list a couple of weeks ago. I printed it, will order a copy and present myself as perhaps an interesting non-LDS reader for you. I had an idea to help a friend ghost-write a series of popular detective novels starring himself, a devout family man confronting daily challenges on the job: questions of faith, shades of grey, human frailty. This was to be a sort of devout Moroni Traveler meets Columbo in John Goodman's body. Talking to some agents in NYC, I found quite a bit of interest in Mormon topics written for a national audience (Is anyone interested in what a couple agents told me? It's not very scientific, anecdotal, for what it's worth, but I'm happy to pass it on). One year later, after lots of informative reading (esp. on the internet) and attending sunday school at the Golden Gate ward, I found myself the writer of a novel, that was, well...more Jewish sounding than Mormon. My mother, who's a local Jewish writer said to me "Ruthie-doll, this Mormon character sounds like a Rabbi..." and my LDS friends say he sounds like a Woody Allen figure.... Best, Ruth - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" At Ogden, Utah High School: Date: 01 Nov 2000 15:28:44 -0700 Marie Knowlton wrote: > Much of > this, however, depends on the director's interpretation, and the feeling > that the cast brings to the show. Isn't that the truth? My first exposure to Godspell was a performance in Provo--very uplifting, very inspiring. Later I watched the movie. Quite disappointing, almost soulless, compared to the Provo performance. Yet while on my mission in Germany among American military people there, jaded soldiers would walk out of the theater after watching the movie and say it's made them want to go back to church after years of avoiding it. How can I argue with that? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 01 Nov 2000 17:32:42 -0500 At 10:09 AM 11/1/2000 -0500, you wrote: >I understand that lots of people are mad about all this "Godspell" business, >but isn't their right to be conservative just as secure a liberty as our >right to be liberal? Or do we want a sort of fascism (which is not, at its >root, a conservative position)? Actually, though I don't post as much as I used to, I have been, almost from the inception of the list, one of the resident conservatives. Even politically,(I campaigned for Bob Taft against Eisenhower, for heaven's sake) I am more conservative than most. >Still, I get a little concerned when liberal church members don't seem to >even try and understand the position (and yes, the limitations) of people >who don't respond well to things like this Godspell issue. The above is not an example of liberality or conservatism, it is an example of overweaning ego. Those who think or act differently than I think they should act are either illegal, immoral or fattening. I, I, I, am the ultimate judge, and I can find some excuse from scripture, from quoting a general authority, from quoting some politician or from quoting . . .. .. to justify my need to manipulate the behavior of others. (It saves me from looking carefully in the mirror). > >I personally think Godspell ought not to be performed in ANY public school >ANYWHERE. It causes red flags about religion and education to go up that >obsure the more important debate of prayer in the schools and our country's >relationship to deity. By this I mean to say that the fight to keep some >moral core in operation doesn't need split fronts. This doesn't mean that >Godspell should never be done, maybe just not right now. Excuse me. I acknowledge your right to think this, but I think it is nonsense. (Thank heaven and the constitution that we both have a right to our widely differing opinions.) A great many of the great plays have their foundations in some sort of religious principle (Early Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Ancient Greek Mythology, Puritan, Tree Worship, what have you. To eliminate all of them from use in the school classroom or on the school stage would result in an even greater number of inane "high school" plays written by talentless purveyors of adolescent humor. (I have judged these in high school play comepetitions till I sometimes expected immediate brain rot from over exposure) I'm afraid we don't share the same feelings toward prayer in school as well. I live in a largely anti-mormon Baptist (a variety of types, one of which identifies me as the Anti-Christ in a radio program following my college version of Godspell - - - one of the great spiritual experiences of my life)culture. I was really relieved when teacher or school led prayer and religious teaching was banned in our area. It simplified my work in teaching my own children the Gospel of Jesus Christ enormously. As far a generic student prayer is concerned, someone once said- accurately, I believe, that prayer will never be eliminated from the classrooom as long as calculus is taught there. > >> The heck she's not a zealot. As far as I am concerned SHE is offensive. >> Sometimes I am embarrassed to share the same church membership with people >> who feel they have the right to micromanage the activities of others. > >It's not as if liberal-types never try to micromanage anything. See the comment above, it has nothing to do with liberal-conservative. > >I am sometimes embarrassed that liberal intellectuals (or the like) in our >church sometimes have the tendency to castigate people for believing in >something, even if it is different from what we believe. This spirit can >make us all seem unforgiving, unkind, and distant from our neighbors, which >is not the case for most of us in my opinion, but there are a few >castigators who boom the loudest, and thus liberal thinkers become bitter >malcontents in the eyes of the castigated. This doesn't solve any problems >I don't think. I am not sure that I understand the logical sequence here. It seems to me that prohibiting plays like Godspell limits belief--These castigators are from boths sides of the street--- but. ... Maybeyou can make this clear to me. I guess I don't understand your point > > Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 01 Nov 2000 15:37:45 -0700 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > I understand that lots of people are mad about all this > "Godspell" business, > but isn't their right to be conservative just as secure a liberty as our > right to be liberal? Or do we want a sort of fascism (which is > not, at its > root, a conservative position)? I wouldn't dream of trying to silence them. I would just like them to stop making their pronouncements as if they speak for God and/or the Church, with the clear implication that if I don't agree with them I must certainly be an apostate headed directly for Outer Darkness. > I personally dislike the play, but lots of people love it. I'm > not much of > a Hair/Godspell/Jesus-Christ Superstar/Phantom of the Opera/Les > Miserables/Miss Saigon/Cats fan at all. In fact I fell asleep in Cats on > Broadway in 1987. Give me Sondheim any day. We have something in common! I slept through Cats that same year! Keep Hair, most of Phantom, all of Miss Saigon, and take my Cats, please. But leave me Les Mis. Over and over. > Still, I get a little concerned when liberal church members don't seem to > even try and understand the position (and yes, the limitations) of people > who don't respond well to things like this Godspell issue. Whoa hoss! I *do* understand the position. And to an extent I even sympathize with it. I just don't believe "being in the world but not of the world" is the same as being narrow-minded and judgemental. Somebody doesn't like a portrayal of the Savior dying on an electrified fence (which is a nice strong modern metaphor that really brings the sacrifice home to me personally) that's fine. But let's not be shrill about it. Let's not try to make others feel immoral over it. It's just not. It may not be to their tastes, but that's as far as it goes. > Richard B. Johnson wrote: > > > The heck she's not a zealot. As far as I am concerned SHE is offensive. > > Sometimes I am embarrassed to share the same church membership > with people > > who feel they have the right to micromanage the activities of others. > > It's not as if liberal-types never try to micromanage anything. > > I am sometimes embarrassed that liberal intellectuals (or the like) in our > church sometimes have the tendency to castigate people for believing in > something, even if it is different from what we believe. This spirit can > make us all seem unforgiving, unkind, and distant from our > neighbors, which > is not the case for most of us in my opinion, but there are a few > castigators who boom the loudest, and thus liberal thinkers become bitter > malcontents in the eyes of the castigated. This doesn't solve > any problems > I don't think. I can't speak for the other bitter liberal malcontents out there, but I truly feel that my opinions are as loving and as broadly inclusive as I can make them, and that those who are trying to shout down legitimate self-expression like Godspell aren't doing the Church, its members, or the nonmembers who surround it any good. They're tarring us all with a broad brush of intolerance and narrow-mindedness that is part of the unfortunate image of the Church going back to Kirtland days. > In fact, I think that sometimes we're trying to be "cooler than thou," and > is that any better, ultimately, than "holier"? Do I practice this "cooler > than thou" stuff. I think I do, sometimes. My fiancee seems to think so. Not me. Nobody accuses me of being cool. I would be a lot "cooler" in the Mormon culture I'm part of if I hewed to a more low key, "orthodox" demeanor and set of opinions. I don't care a fig if The World considers me cool or not. I do, however, care if the Savior considers me cool, and to do that I think I have to love as many of His children as I can, just as inclusively and non-judgementally as I can. -- Scott Tarbet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Bearing Cultural Witness Date: 01 Nov 2000 15:48:48 -0700 Terri Reid asked a wonderful question: >And how can we - as authors - help change this situation >(bringing back >to an AML kind of discussion.) For starters, by standing up in Relief Society and telling your sisters your honest reaction to the Goosebumps books. I mean, we can only manage to change attitudes one person at a time. And so I find myself sneaking little plugs for favorite books into my Gospel Doctrine lessons. I gave one whole lesson on God's Army in there, and the zealous brother who despises that film just sat and took it. (Which was very good of him, I think.) Anyway, good for you. Let's bear witness. Let's testify of great literature, and the light of Christ we find in it. And Terri, you da bomb. (That's good, I think.) Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marsha Steed Subject: [AML] Re: MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 01 Nov 2000 15:27:04 -0800 "Folks, do you ever get like this, so depressed by certain manifestations of cultural Mormonism that you don't even want to call yourself a Mormon anymore? Do you ever feel so utterly estranged from Mormon culture that you begin to wonder if there's a place, even a tiny little unlit corner, where you can belong, where you too can fit in?" -- Eric Samuelsen Oh Eric, do you understand how comments like this are something to grasp onto for those of us who sometimes feel so very alone in our views and inherent need for something 'more'? This sort of openess and honesty is the very reason that I am on this list, and even deeper, why I can carry on in *my* little corner of the world now knowing that I am not completely a heathen. I have felt this way as well, and though the gospel as given by the Church, is my spiritual language, I also see so very much good in the 'world' that too often members of the Church shun or snub simply out of misunderstanding or prejudicing. Perhaps this note caught me in a vunerably honest mood, but it hit a core that reverberates as surely as if your tuning fork plucked the same note as the one I'm holding. Sometimes I feel guilty for liking what I like, for seeing beauty where I should be disgusted. Yet nowdays it is less so. Somehow I can hold up my head and allow myself to find truth and upliftment and even inspiration and joy, in the expressions of others that may be just over the edge. I may have to pay the piper one day, who really knows, but for me, for now, it is gratifying beyond measure to know that my different drummer is at least one of many. Thank you. Marsha Steed - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sally0115@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Internet Date: 01 Nov 2000 19:12:44 EST My first contact with the LDS Church was by the net...I entered in the LDS official site and asked for a Book of Mormon and the visit of the missionaries...Two days after I had missinaries at home...(God's delivery) :-))) After receiveing the messages I decided to become a member of the Church. What do you think about the power of internet in contributing with the growth of the Church? Renato renatorigo@ig.com.br My reply: I started teaching the gospel on the internet about four years ago. It's powerful. Almost three years ago, I started opening a chat room for the discussion of LDS doctrine. The results have been astounding. There are several advantages of teaching and learning about the gospel on the internet. Teaching wise, there is little time wasted trying to find the interested person. From the interested person's side, their basic questions can be answered without their feeling any pressure. Some people think that the spirit can't testify on here. Yet, I can give you example after example of that happening. I've considered writing a book about the conversions on the internet, but as you can see from reading this, I'm no writer. I know that the internet is given to us as part of the knowledge that has been poured out after the restoration. How we use this power is up to us. Ruth Packer (Sally0115@aol.com) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Lee ALLRED, "The Greatest Danger" Date: 01 Nov 2000 15:45:17 -0800 I agree. This is wonderful news. Congratulations! At , you wrote: >Lee! We're THRILLED! This is great! I can't wait to see it and read it! >Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard C. Russell" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormonism and Internet Date: 01 Nov 2000 19:58:29 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 12:38 AM > The Internet, like any other powerful tool, can cut both ways. On > television you can watch General Conference and South Park. Through the > Internet, someone could be brought to the Gospel, like you, Renato. Yet > when you look up "LDS" on search engines, you'll bring up a zillion > anti-Mormon sites. Ain't agency great? And God can access even those that aren't on the Internet! ********************************************* Richard C. Russell, SLC UTAH www.leaderlore.com, www.keyscouter.com "There is never the last word, only the latest." Let there be whirled peas! ********************************************* - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Ruth Date: 02 Nov 2000 04:18:46 -0700 Ruth, What a fascinating post! Welcome to the list. You wrote: "Talking to some agents in NYC I found quite a bit of interest in Mormon topics written for a national audience (Is anyone interested in what a couple agents told me? It's not very scientific, anecdotal, for what it's worth, but I'm happy to pass it on)." I'm sure that many of us are very interested in what these agents had to say. Please do pass it on! Has the novel you referred to (the Jewish-sounding Mormon one) been published yet? If so, where can we get a hold of it? Thanks for introducing yourself. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.colm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Ruth (was: AML List) Date: 02 Nov 2000 09:25:11 -0700 Ruth, I am interested in your following offer, and it seems appropriate for AML-List: [MOD: Yes indeed.] <<>> Thanks, Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Robert Petersen Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 02 Nov 2000 13:29:28 -0600 Todd Petersen wrote: >> Still, I get a little concerned when liberal church members don't seem to >> even try and understand the position (and yes, the limitations) of people >> who don't respond well to things like this Godspell issue. Scott Tarbet wrote: >Whoa hoss! I *do* understand the position. And to an extent I even >sympathize with it. I just don't believe "being in the world but not of the >world" is the same as being narrow-minded and judgemental. Isn't there also a problem with being narrow-minded and judgemental about narrow-minded and judgemental people? When that woman was called an "offensive zealot," that doesn't strike me as what you're claiming for yourself. I think that none of us should be shrill about any of the positions. Scott again: > I don't think. > can't speak for the other bitter liberal malcontents out there, but I >truly feel that my opinions are as loving and as broadly inclusive as I can >make them, and that those who are trying to shout down legitimate >self-expression like Godspell aren't doing the Church, its members, or the >nonmembers who surround it any good. They're tarring us all with a broad >brush of intolerance and narrow-mindedness that is part of the unfortunate >image of the Church going back to Kirtland days. And this NEVER happens in reverse? I'm just trying to think in "mote and beam" terms here. Scott again: >Not me. Nobody accuses me of being cool. I would be a lot "cooler" in the >Mormon culture I'm part of if I hewed to a more low key, "orthodox" demeanor >and set of opinions. I don't mean cool that way. I mean cool like Fonzie is cool, but perhaps I should have said "hipper than thou" or "liberaler than thou" or "open-minded-er than thou." I wrote: >>I personally think Godspell ought not to be performed in ANY public school >>ANYWHERE. It causes red flags about religion and education to go up that >>obsure the more important debate of prayer in the schools and our country's >>relationship to deity. By this I mean to say that the fight to keep some >>moral core in operation doesn't need split fronts. This doesn't mean that >>Godspell should never be done, maybe just not right now. Richard's response: >Excuse me. I acknowledge your right to think this, but I think it is >nonsense. What doesn't make sense? I clearly didn't argue that it or plays like it could never be done, just that there are other more important things going on in the debate. But how many Jewish, Native American, or Hindu kids would feel comfortable performing in a play about Jesus? We need to take that into consideration. That's what I'm saying and I'm sticking to it. Tolerance means tolerance extended to all people. As I said, I'm not for banning things, just for people taking other people into account. I think that we also need to recognize that we can become so indignant concerning the bourgeois philistines that we end up with egg on our collective ties. It seems to me that the argument did go to liberal/conservative without my help. I think that this is a false dichotomy, but it one that folks fall into a lot (e.g. us liberal good types who want liberty to think and feel as we see fit without having people get at us and those ghoulish conservative-types keep on trying to push their conservative agenda on us.). I do think that it is an interesting discussion; however, I think that we ought just be nicer. -- Todd Robert Petersen [MOD: Let me piggyback off Todd Robert's post to remind us all to be nice in particular to each other as we express our diverse opinions. It's very easy to use labels in a way that implies that these labels describe others on the List with whom we disagree, even without meaning to.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Robert Petersen Subject: Re: [AML] Re: MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 02 Nov 2000 14:24:42 -0600 Marsha wrote: "Sometimes I feel guilty for liking what I like, for seeing beauty where I should be disgusted." I know this feeling,and it is a difficult place to be. I am in Oklahoma (Baptist/Church of Christ country to be sure) and have heard from other non-LDS church-going friends that they, too, feel the same inability to like Francis Bacon's paintings, for example, or LOLITA, or to at least be able to talk about these things in public with others and be understood. These divisions really can drive people apart, and there's not much opportunity for healing. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: [AML] Attention All Freelance Writers Date: 02 Nov 2000 13:13:05 MST Ok, folks, I need to pick your collective brains. Being married to an actor, I have a hard time keeping a job because we move around considerably. There are all sorts of jobs I qualify for but nobody wants to hire me because I'm not going to be around for very long. My bright idea was to do some freelance writing for magazines etc. I have been dutifully researching and querying and submitting and brainstorming but have not been successful. Not even one little greeting card submission was accepted. I know there are writers on this list who make their living through such freelance work so my question for you is: how did you do it? Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Bearing Cultural Witness Date: 02 Nov 2000 14:17:39 -0700 My wife used an interesting technique in the last talk she gave in Sacrament Mtg. On a subject about unconditional Christian Love, she talked about the incredibly moving final scene in _Schindler's List_, where Schindler is weeping, "I could have done more -- I could have sold my car! I could have sold my ring." Thus, one can laud the virtues of certain R-rated movies without intentionally hurting the feelings of other members who don't see any R-rated films. Eric says below we can only change attitudes one person at a time and he is corect. It is my experience that this is true. Years ago, during a particularly tense media-bashing session in Sunday School, I calmly bore my witness to, first the arbitrary nature of the rating system, and then second, to the many films I had seen that had profoundly changed my life for the good. Afterwards, a sister who had never participated, took me aside and whispered to me, "Thank you for saying what I didn't have the courage to say." Thom Duncan My new email: ThomDuncan@prodigy.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] Attention All Freelance Writers Date: 02 Nov 2000 21:51:42 GMT I've never made it work, writing articles to submit for publication. OK, only once, for an herbal magazine, where I wrote an article on using herbs to make your own tomato sauces instead of buying expensive jarred ones. But I've made my living as a freelance editor/writer by styling myself as a ghostwriter and doing work for people who want to write a book but don't know how. I've had lots of work during the last couple of years. I've specialized in alternative medicine (it's my "niche" in the market) and because of research and experience get to work on projects involving nutrition,healing, and so on. To do freelance editing/writing I rely heavily on word of mouth and the Internet. I hope you can make it work, too. Like many things, ghostwriting is an answer to the ego's need; you just make yourself indispensable to your client's ego, and off you go :). Cathy This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: reid9 Subject: Re: [AML] Attention All Freelance Writers Date: 02 Nov 2000 17:51:50 -0600 Dear Marianne, I work as a freelance writer - I have written for local papers (pays very little), for magazines (hit or miss) and for corporations (more money, steady assignments and a good relationships.) However, I happen to live in a small town (30,000) with two Fortune 50 companies in it - so, I have developed a relationship with Honeywell and their communications department, so when they are overwhelmed (like very week) they call me and hand me assignments. For you, however, traveling the way you do - it's going to be harder to develop those relationships. I would suggest going to a couple of really good websites - like Guru.com and http://freelancewrite.about.com - both of these sites and quite a few others have jobs/gigs for freelance writers that you can get from anywhere in the nation and usually work from home. Once you've hit on a couple of good jobs - they like you, you like them, you can develop a cyber-relationship. If you really want to try magazines - first try with the smaller magazines and then write something you like and know (don't you hate people who tell you that!:)) But, it's true. You will have a much easier job selling a magazine on an article that you know a lot about. I also read an article recently about a magazine writer who started off by writing the article and then sending it to the magazine. However, you should make sure that the magazine you send the article to accepts unsolicited articles. One of the best tools is Writers Markets - when I was looking for freelance jobs, I bought the new one every year - it is incredibly helpful. Also, many freelancers I know have started a newsletter service for small business, like insurance companies. They approach the business, tell them why it would be cheaper and higher quality to have them write a newsletter for the company and then get material from the source. It can be very lucrative. Good luck!!!!! I love this job! Terri Reid - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: [AML] Value of Literature (was: November Editorial) Date: 02 Nov 2000 16:36:51 -0500 I have been debating with myself over this importance of literature question for the past several weeks-months even. It wasn't that long ago that I connected with my desire to write again, and it has been a massively frustrating experience. For one, I just have no confidence that, even if I gave it my best for the rest of my life, anything I write will ever be of any lasting worth to anyone. One part of me knows that is only of minor importance. If it was only of worth to me doesn't that make it of worth? Yet, it takes time away from so many other important things. That is when I manage to find even an hour to put a pen to paper-which doesn't happen very often. What if, in the end, it wasn't ever meant to be one of my talents and I let something more 'worldly' distract me from more important things in the eternal perspective. But isn't developing creatively important? (And around and around she goes and where she stops.....) Then there is the 'value of literature' question in general-not related to my writing in particular. I have always maintained that reading is very important and a window to the world and so forth. I'm the motivating force behind far too many bookshelves filled two rows deep all through my house. Then I trip over those general authority comments about seeking for good, filling our lives with things uplifting, every good book, not focusing on the negative (is reading about the Cambodian people and their troubled country, for instance, focusing on the negative?). And I start questioning. What could I be doing that might be a better use of my time, and so forth. (I never expected having a temple so close to home would complicate all these issues so much for me.) Has anyone else been struggling with this and have some words of wisdom to offer? Or am I a lone flake in the Mormon Arts world? Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- Jonathan the moderator said: Everyone on this List, I think, is here in part because we believe that literature is an important thing. Most if not all of us believe as well in the value of a community of Mormon letters and wish to contribute to the development of that community. That purpose is best served, I think, by an atmosphere in which we speak our mind--and perhaps more important, our heart--but where we listen and hear as well. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Favorite Mormon Essays Date: 02 Nov 2000 00:04:57 JST For this month's poll, I would liike to hear about your favorite non-fiction ppp LDS essays, which I roughly divide into two categories, "personal essays" and "devotional literature." Since there are not that many, I am going to do away with the "Best of the 1990s" format I used before, and invite you to include any past LDS literature. If anyone with more literary training out there can give better definitions of the categories personal essays and devotional literature, I would be glad to hear it. Since they have been used in recent AML awards, I figure they would work here. Maybe I should start with what I am not including. I am not looking for history, biography, sociological studies, or any other academic non-fiction. I am talking about essays which talk about personal experiences, personal beliefs, or comment on religious or topical issues. By devotional literature, I basically mean sermons. I think just about all the books written by General Authorities, most of which are collections of sermons, fit in this category. But I think there are some non-GA sermon writers of note out there, like Truman Madsen, Lowell Bennion, and Bruce Hafen (he is a GA now, I think, but he was not when he started writing his books). You could nominate any favorite general conference or Ensign sermon as well. But I am not talking about articles by religion professors which do close readings of the scriptures, like the Studies in the Scriptures series. I am looking more for sermons which talk about how principals of the gospel apply in daily life. The personal essay category refers, I think, to more introspective works. I suppose Eugene England and Terry Tempest Williams are among the best known in this category. That being said, these are very arbitrary and fuzzy categories. I am sure many of England's essays could be seen as "sermons", and some of them probably were originally. Chieko Okazaki's books are collections of sermons, but obviously many of them are very "personal". Also, it is hard to define what is or is not an essay. Tom Rogers' recent book is, on the surface, a history of his time as a mission president in Russia, but a lot of it is made up of diary-like personal reflections (as opposed to Dr. Browning's book on his time in Russia, which really is a strait narrative/history.) How about humorous essays, should they be in a different category? If so, where would I put Elouise Bell? I dunno. Anyway, here is a list of some essays that I am aware of. I am sure I am leaving out a lot (especially in the sermon section, where I list hardly any at all), so feel free to add to my list. Feel free to mention both collections of essays or individual ones of note which have appeared in periodicals, like Dialogue, Sunstone, BYU Studies, The Ensign, etc. So, tell me what you have liked. Personal Essays Beck, Martha Nibley. Expecting Adam. Times Books, 1999. AML 1999 essay prize. Bell, Elouise. Only When I Laugh. Signature, 1990. 1990 AML Essay award. Bradford, Mary Lythgoe. Leaving Home. Signature, 1987. 1988 AML Essay award. Cannon, Ann Edwards. What's A Mother to Do. Signautre, 1997. Humorous essays. Cannon, D. James. Mormon Essays. Deseret, 1970. Card, Orson Scott. A Storyteller in Zion. Bookcraft, 1993. Clark, Marden J. Liberating Form: Mormon Essays on Religion and Literature. Aspen, 1992. England, Eugene. Dialogues with Myself. Orion, 1984. 1984 AML award. Why the Church is as True as the Gospel. Bookcraft, 1986. The Quality of Mercy. Bookcraft, 1992. Making Peace. Signature, 1996. Fogg, B. J. Symbiosis, 1992 BYU thesis. Geary, Edward. Goodbye to Poplarhaven: Reflections of a Utah Boyhood. U of Utah Press, 1985. 1985 AML Essay prize. The Proper Edge of the Sky. 1996. Hawkinson, Sharon. Only Strangers Travel. Bookcraft, 1984. Holladay, Valerie. Has appeared in Dialogue. Johnston, Jerry. Spirits in the Leaves. Signature, 1996. Jolley, Clifton Holt. "Selling the Chevrolet: A Moral Exercise." Dialogue 16.3 (1983). Sequel to England's essay. He wrote a humor column in the Deseret News in the 1980s. King, Arthur Henry. The Abundance of the Heart. Bookcraft, 1986. Enlarged version called: Arm the Children: Faith's Response to a Violent World, Deseret, 1998. Kirby, Robert . Humor column in Tribune collected in: Sunday of the Living Dead, Wake Me for the Resurrection, Pat and Kirby go to Heck. Bucharoo/Slick Rock Books, 1995,96, 97. With Pat Bagley. Packard, Dennis. "From Peter Rabbit to Rabbi Goldman," BYU Today, April 1983. Plummer, Louise. Thoughts of a Grasshopper. Deseret, 1992. Plummer, Tom. Eating chocolates and dancing in the kitchen : sketches of marriage and family. Deseret, 1998. 1998 AML essay prize. Don't Bite Me, I'm Santa Claus. Shadow Mountain, 1999. Second Wind : Variations on a Theme of Growing Older. Shadow Mountain, October 2000. Poll, Richard D. History and Faith: Reflections of a Mormon Historian. Signature, 1989. "A Liahona Latter-day Saint." Sunstone 17:2 (September, 1994). 1994 AML Essay award. Rasmaussen, Dennis. The Lord's Question. Keter, 1985. Philosophy. Rogers, Thomas F. "On the Importance of Doing Certain Mundane Things". Sunstone. Dec. 1998. Call To Russia -- Glimpses of Missionary Work, BYU Studies, 1999. Sekaquaptewa, Helen and Louise Udall. Me and Mine An autobiography of a Hopi Mormon convert. Snider, Eric. Snide Remarks. Snide Remarks II: Electric Boogaloo. 1999 or so. Collections of his BYU Universe (now Provo Herald) columns. Snow, Edgar C., Jr. Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon. Signature, 1999. Humorous essays. Thayne, Emma Lou. As for Me and My House. Bookcraft, 1989. 1989 AML Essay award. Sixteen meditations on housekeeping and homemaking Toscano, Paul James. The Sanctity of Dissent. Signature, 1994. Ulrich, Laurel Thatcher and Emma Lou Thayne. All God's Critters Got A Place in the Choir. Aspen Books, 1995. Williams, Terry-Tempast. Refuge. Pantheon, 1991. 1991 AML Essay prize. Desert Quartet: An Erotic Landscape. Pantheon, 1995. AML essay prize. Leap. Pantheon, 2000. Essay Collections Asplund-Campbell, Marni ed. With Child: Mormon Women on Mothering. Signature, 1998. Bradford, Mary Lythgoe, ed. Mormon Women Speak: A Collection of Essays. Olympus, 1982. ---- ed. Personal Voices. Signature, 1987. Best essays from Dialogue over the years. Corcoran, Brent. Multiply and Replenish : Mormon Essays on Sex and Family. Signature, 1994. Kimball, Linda Hoffman, ed. Saints Well Seasoned: Musings on How Food Nourishes Us: Body, Heart, and Soul. Deseret, 1998. Essays on food by Card, Dean Hughes, Elouise Bell, Claudia Bushman, Ann Edwards Cannon, Richard H. Cracroft, Mary Ellen Edmunds, Eugene England, Kathryn H. Kidd, Louise Plummer, and Emma Lou Thayne. Lyon, Thomas and Terry Tempest Williams Great and Peculiar Beauty: A Utah Reader. Ed.. Gibbs Smith, 1995. Hundreds of selections of diaries, essays, short stories and poems about Utah, for the Centennial. Sillito, John, ed. The Wilderness of Faith: Essays on Contemporary Mormon Thought. Signature, 199?. Essays on Mormonism Series No. 3. Williams, Terry Tempest, William B. Smart, and Gibbs Smith, eds. New Genesis: A Mormon Reader on Land and Community. Gibbs-Smith, 1998. Essays by 40 LDS writers and thinkers on creation. Devotional Literature Bennion, Lowell. The Teachings of the New Testament, The Things the Matter Most. Bookcraft, 1978. Doing Justly and Loving Mercy. The Legacies of Jesus. For a sampling see The Best of Lowell L. Bennion, a collection Eugene England edited in 1988. Dunn, Paul H. Hafen, Bruce C. Broken Heart: Applying the Atonement to Life's Experiences. The Belonging Heart. Hinckley, Gordon B. Standing for Something : 10 Neglected Virtues That Will Heal Our Hearts and Homes. Times Books, 2000. Madsen, Truman G. Christ and the Inner Life. Bookcraft, 1978. The Radiant Life. Bookcraft, 1994. Maxwell, Neal A. Of One Heart: The Glory of the City of Enoch. Deseret, 1975. One More Strain of Praise. Bookcraft, 1999. AML 1999 prize for devotional literature. Okazaki, Chieko. Lighten Up! Cat's Cradle. Sanctuary. Disciples, Deseret, 1998. Robinson, Stephen E. Believing Christ. Deseret, 1992. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile athttp://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 01 Nov 2000 15:21:12 -0700 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > I understand that lots of people are mad about all this "Godspell" business, > but isn't their right to be conservative just as secure a liberty as our > right to be liberal? Or do we want a sort of fascism (which is not, at its > root, a conservative position)? Interesting that you assume it's liberals who are upset about the Godspell news story. I'm a pretty conservative person (just ask Thom Duncan), but I am as appalled at the reaction of the parents as any flaming liberal here. I have no problem with someone thinking Godspell is not appropriate. I have a big problem with them trying to push that opinion on everyone else. I consider this reaction from the parents to be as disturbing as those who want to ban Huckleberry Finn because the word "nigger" is in it. > Still, I get a little concerned when liberal church members don't seem to > even try and understand the position (and yes, the limitations) of people > who don't respond well to things like this Godspell issue. Understand it? I _was_ one of these people growing up. I understand their position quite well. I have since wised up and renounced such intrusions into other people's free agency. (Unless it's a critic telling me what subject I can write about, of course.) > I personally think Godspell ought not to be performed in ANY public school > ANYWHERE. It causes red flags about religion and education to go up that > obsure the more important debate of prayer in the schools and our country's > relationship to deity. By this I mean to say that the fight to keep some > moral core in operation doesn't need split fronts. This doesn't mean that > Godspell should never be done, maybe just not right now. Performing Godspell is going to do a lot more good for bringing the church vs state dichotomy back into the realm of common sense than the dubious debate about prayer in school. Religious works of art _should_ be performable in schools--as long as a specific religious outlook isn't regularly favored--because religion is as much a part of our culture and heritage as anything else. To pretend in the classroom that religion doesn't exist is an educational lie. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Ruth Date: 02 Nov 2000 19:42:58 -0700 FIY, Barry Monroe is the unorthodox bedrockmormon protagonist in the book Angel of the Danube, which won the AML MB award as the book Barry Monroe's Missionary Journal. I just assumed he was a household name;) Wow Ruth, what a story! I'm amazed at our Austrian connections although I'm a little older than your time frame. I have an interesting Jewish/Mormon story from my mission about entertaining a SoCal Jewish girl in Vienna. My daughter took German at the U last year. You are at UCLA! In chapter 11, Barry Monroe visits UCLA to confer with Herr Professor Smart Dude. The connections keep going. I'm planning on going to a wedding in Santa Monica in early December. But Woody Allen as a Mormon? I loved Woody growing up. I think he is absolutely the best at making fun of the new sexual mores--but after his marriage to whatshername, I wondered if he wasn't caught in his own joke. I've got an idea for a movie--why not have Woody Allen play himself and try to teach Donnie Osmond how to be funny in the home culture. Wouldn't Donnie's blush just be great? What if Donnie were able to pull it off at the end? Wouldn't that change everything? ( copyright ARMitchell, 2000). And Angel is now at Deseret Bookstores everywhere (yes it made the grade) and the Seagull catalog, and where ever great Mormon books are sold. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 02 Nov 2000 21:56:07 -0500 At 01:29 PM 11/2/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >Richard's response: > >>Excuse me. I acknowledge your right to think this, but I think it is >>nonsense. > >What doesn't make sense? I clearly didn't argue that it or plays like it >could never be done, just that there are other more important things going >on in the debate. But how many Jewish, Native American, or Hindu kids would >feel comfortable performing in a play about Jesus? We need to take that >into consideration. That's what I'm saying and I'm sticking to it. As a matter of fact, my production included two Jews and a native American, and, though the show was built largely through improvisation, I am pretty sure that one of the named 'authors' is Jewish. >Tolerance means tolerance extended to all people. As I said, I'm not for >banning things, just for people taking other people into account. I think >that we also need to recognize that we can become so indignant concerning >the bourgeois philistines that we end up with egg on our collective ties. I can agree with most of this though I don't get indignant about bourgeois philistines - I probably fit into the category on occasion. I get indignant about those who feel that everyone should march to "their" drummer. >It seems to me that the argument did go to liberal/conservative without my >help. ;-> >I think that this is a false dichotomy, but it one that folks fall into a >lot (e.g. us liberal good types who want liberty to think and feel as we see >fit without having people get at us and those ghoulish conservative-types >keep on trying to push their conservative agenda on us.). Interesting but it holds up as well if we reverse the placement of the words liberal and conservative. > I do think that it is an interesting discussion; however, I think that we ought just be nicer. Gee, I was trying to be as nice as I could be under the circumstances. :-) Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] Value of Literature Date: 02 Nov 2000 20:39:16 -0600 Tracie, I think everyone who is involved with reading and writing has these doubts time to time. But doubts help you refocus and get a clearer perspective on what is important to you. And what you love to do tends to become the most important. If you love to write, then that is all the justification you need. It doesn't matter what anyone else will think about what you have wrote; but if you love doing it, it will show in the writing. I see good writing as a selfless act. If an author is always wondering whether they will have an effect on society; or make the bestseller list; get the six-figure contract; or be the next Shakespeare, it will simply cripple their ability to write well and write with love. We should learn to detach ourselves from the outcome of what may come from our writing. Remember the scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants 18:15? Here is my own version: "And if it so be that you should labor all your days in writing literature unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the library of my Father, the greatest Author of all." Without language and literature there would be no sociey or civilization; and without great language and great literature, there would be no hope for the great society and great civilization to come. We are all part of that: from Herod to Shakespeare to Dickens to you and me! Never let your hope be at mercy of the good opinion of other people. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: (Curiouser & Curiouser) Mormon.Outlet.Shopping.Com Date: 02 Nov 2000 22:40:56 EST Oh, Ed! Can we hand these out with the ward and stake calendars this year? Please ... What a side-splitting hoot 'n' holler! Thanks. Larry Jackson _____ Urim and Thummim with Detachable Breastplate Day Planner. Set beautifully in a silver-plated bow attached to an oversized copper breastplate-shaped Day Planner ... >From Ed Snow, CURIOUSER & CURIOUSER: MORMON MUSINGS Mormon.Outlet.Shopping.Com by Edgar C. Snow, Jr. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 03 Nov 2000 01:58:10 -0700 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > But how many Jewish, Native American, or Hindu kids would > feel comfortable performing in a play about Jesus? We need to take that > into consideration. That's what I'm saying and I'm sticking to it. I, a Christian, would feel very comfortable performing in a play about Jewish, Hindu, or Native American religious concepts, as long as the play wasn't promoting those concepts as the true religion. I don't believe the play Godspell says anything about the divinity of Christ, only his moral teachings. It's historical and cultural, and that sort of thing is a valid part of--yes--even public education in America. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Value of Literature Date: 03 Nov 2000 02:17:53 -0700 Tracie Laulusa wrote: > Has anyone else been struggling with this and have some words of wisdom to > offer? Or am I a lone flake in the Mormon Arts world? Unfortunately, you are not a lone flake. This guilt about writing seems to keep cropping up every so often. For the life of me, I can't understand why. Isn't it good enough that Presidents of the Church have extolled the virtues of the arts, including literature? The likes of Spencer Kimball, for heaven's sakes, has longed for LDS authors to write about fascinating events and characters in church history. There must be something valuable about writing. > For one, I just have no confidence that, even if I gave it my best for the > rest of my life, anything I write will ever be of any lasting worth to > anyone. Nonsense. It will be of lasting worth to a great many people--your posterity, if nothing else. But if you give it your best for the rest of your life, you would literally have to be a dunce not to learn how to produce something of value sooner or later. > What could I be doing that might be a better use of my time, and so forth. I know this isn't what you meant, but what you could be doing that would be a better use of your time is to stop beating yourself up over your desire to write. What a waste of energy! Use that energy to read and write. It's okay, honest. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] HELLMAN, _The Children's Hour_ (Salt Lake Tribune) Date: 03 Nov 2000 11:57:56 JST At BYU, Lying And Lesbianism Take the Stage in 'Children's Hour' Thursday, November 2, 2000 BY SCOTT C. MORGAN THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE Ever since it premiered on Broadway in 1934, Lillian Hellman's drama "The Children's Hour" has stirred up controversy. Although its 1936 film adaptation, "These Three," erased all traces of its controversial subject matter, the 1962 film version of "The Children's Hour" starring Audrey Hepburn and Shirley MacLaine helped break down barriers in Hollywood's Hays Production code, allowing a large American audience to catch a glimpse of the once-taboo issue of homosexuality. This week, "The Children's Hour" opens at Brigham Young University in Provo, where it will be anyone's guess how the play will be received. The plot for "The Children's Hour" comes directly from real-life events of 1810. In Edinburgh, Scotland, a vindictive girl accused two of her school headmistresses of lesbianism. The girl's grandmother spread the slanderous rumors, which eventually ruined the once-respected girls' boarding school and drove one of the women to suicide. For her first play, Hellman transferred the plot to a small Massachusetts town in the 1930s to powerfully show how malicious lies can destroy people's lives. She also exposed the harsh cruelty laid down on those who might fall outside societal norms. In the process, Hellman also brought to the stage Martha Dobie, who was "perhaps the first gay character who wasn't an out-and-out stereotype, but a dramatic, sympathetic person," according to Fran Pruyn, who directed "The Children's Hour" in 1979 for the New Shakespeare Players (later to become TheatreWorks West). Pruyn, who says she has been openly gay in Utah for about 20 years, points out that there have been hundreds of more positive and honest depictions of gay and lesbian characters in literature and theater since the self-loathing Martha, but the fact that Martha existed was still important. "She was perhaps the only lesbian in American theater that was fairly visible up until the late 1960s," Pruyn said. At BYU, the take on the character of Martha is completely different. "That isn't what the play is about," said part-time BYU theater instructor Laurie Harrop-Purser, who was assigned to direct "Children's Hour." "It's about someone who gets caught up in a lie." She said that she thinks, within the play, if a homosexual relationship between the teachers hadn't been rumored by the students, Martha would not have considered it. "Even if she did have any of those feelings, I don't think that's who she is." Harrop-Purser's views were echoed by actress Christina Davis, the BYU senior who plays Martha. "I don't feel that she is actually a lesbian. What really drives her is her search for love," Davis said, referring to her character's enigmatic behavior as a form of co-dependency with the soon-to-be married teacher Karen Wright. "I think she never really experienced real love. Once the lie comes out, she thinks, 'Well, maybe this is the truth,' and actually says it. It's a last, desperate attempt to cling on." Whatever the interpretations behind Martha's motivations, the issues brought up in "The Children's Hour" have a contemporary relevance for many in Utah. In recent years, Spanish Fork High School teacher Wendy Weaver went to court when the Nebo School District tried to restrict her speech because she is a lesbian. The Salt Lake school board tried to squelch a gay-straight student alliance that was forming at East High School in the 1995-96 school year. But to many gays and lesbians working in Utah's theater community, "The Children's Hour" brings to mind the recent suicide of Stuart Matis, a 1994 BYU graduate who could not reconcile his homosexual feelings with his LDS upbringing. About two weeks before Californians voted this year on Proposition 22, the ballot initiative barring same-sex marriages in the state, Matis shot himself on the steps of a Mormon chapel in Los Altos, Calif. Many people close to Matis who were quoted in the national media said that the LDS Church's support of the initiative and the divisive anti-gay comments that flowed across the state all hit Matis particularly hard. Pruyn likens Matis' situation to what Martha encounters in the play. "She was crumbling under society's pressures," Pruyn said. "There comes a time for many people when they realize that they are different and they have difficulty with the realization that they have to find a way to fit in with the rest of the world. Many people can't face that." According to Harrop-Purser, "The Children's Hour" was scheduled for production long before Matis' suicide. "It's sad in both instances, in the play and what happened [in California]," she said, pointing out that the many strong women's roles in "The Children's Hour" was the reason behind its selection. Pruyn sees having "The Children's Hour" produced at BYU as an opportunity for discussion. "Even if it isn't positive, it is still discussion," she said. Controversial Playtime "The Children's Hour" plays at the Harris Fine Arts Center Margetts Theatre on the campus of Brigham Young University in Provo tonight through Saturday, and Nov. 7-11 at 7:30 p.m. Tickets are $10, $8 for students and faculty. Call (801) 378-4322. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Starling" Subject: [AML] _Children of Fortune_ (Movie) Date: 03 Nov 2000 10:47:43 -0700 I'm not sure if this is "Mormon" literature (since the characters specifically identify themselves as _ex_ mormons), but did anyone watch the CBS network made-for-TV movie on Wednesday called "Children of Fortune"? The plot revolved around a detective intestigating a murder in San Diego. He goes to the victim's hometown - a small polygamous community near St. George, Ut. I thought the writing (and the treatment of the "ex-Mormons") was pretty good. Any comments? Robert Starling - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] Value of Literature Date: 03 Nov 2000 19:12:06 GMT I wrote: "We are all part of that: from Herod to Shakespeare to Dickens to you and me!" Oops!, I meant Homer not Herod. I think I was having a brain freeze. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Ruth Date: 03 Nov 2000 11:06:27 -0800 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > Ruth, I am interested in your following offer, and it seems appropriate for AML-List: > > [MOD: Yes indeed.] > > << topics written for a national audience (Is anyone interested in what a couple > agents told me? It's not very scientific, anecdotal, for what it's worth, but > I'm happy to pass it on). >>> > > Thanks, > Chris Bigelow Well, here's the story, which may in fact simply highlight what many more experienced writers on this list may know, but I hope it'll be interesting anyway. Summer 1999 I'd finished a draft of my novel about the adventures of an LDS detective, and having no previous experience writing or publishing fiction, I decided to educate myself by attending the yearly conference for mystery writers at Book Passage in Marin county. [www.bookpassage.com] It's a very reputable conference, a bit steep in tuition, but the organizers and sessions are very helpful, it was nice to meet editors, agents and writers with one novel already under their belts, AND it takes place at a nice and relatively reasonably priced Best Western motel, where my family could splash in the 25 yrd pool, while I attended sessions. There I met two NYC agents from mid-sized agencies specializing in commercial literature, mystery, romance etc. and two local agents. I took all of their cards, picked one agent who seemed most interested, went home revised my MS and sent it in a couple months later. She rejected it saying she wasn't interest in the plot (which was based on a small-time political scandal in suburban CA) but found (I quote here from the letter) "the idea of a Mormon protagonist faced with challenges both within himself and the outside world is a great one. What a fascinating culture! " She ended with the suggestion that others may not have the same reservations about my plot and that the Mormon idea definitely deserved other agent readings. So I went to the next NYC agent , whose card I had. She responded that her client list was now full but that, "a character-driven novel about Mormon culture would be fascinating." hmmm, I thought.."fascinating" in what way? I wrote back and asked, but, as is typical with busy NY agents, I got no response. Next I queried the local agents who weren't interested at all. So I struck out on my own and decided why not query the top agents in New York and go from there. I got two readings from major houses, Samuel Greenberger ltd and Aaron Preist: both of whom rejected the MS saying the Mormon angle was "interesting," the novel itself wasn't "right for their markets." After that, I decided I needed a new plot, that maybe political plots are a hard-sell unless they have some wider resonance, and maybe also I just needed some more writerly practice. (Good thing I'm an academic and somewhat accustomed to ego-trampling.) For the next while I concentrated on my scholarly book projects which are now close to being finished (one on German unification and the other on the commercialization of the Holocaust in film) and had a baby in January 2000. That's where things stand for now with my novel project, I'm going to let the thing sit for a while, as I finish my more pressing scholarly work and play with my kids. It's probably a whole other thread to mention, that I as an outsider, found it ultimately very hard to write fiction about a culture other than my own. Not that it's not possible, there are many great literary examples, I'm saying, it's just _hard_. Given my own great obligations with family and career, I may just be happy to be a consumer rather than a producer of Mormon lit. In the end, it's been interesting and I've got some other ideas if anyone wants to hear: I think there is a national market for an LDS mystery, a "cozy" as they are called, the ones w/o too much graphic stuff with a plucky, but realistic female protagonist. Say, a Relief Society President who accidentally uncovers crime...does this already exist in local version? LDS detail just needs to be explained in a the way that the uninitiated (myself included) can understand, AND most importantly, that the representation, conflicts, results are human and believable. This last thing is just my own taste, but I think it also speaks for the perspective of an outside reader. LAST of all, I've some thoughts about obtaining Mormon lit (Signature press gets my eyeballs b/c of its quality work, its fine range of perspectives and most importantly its WEBSITE and b/c it promotes titles on amazon.com. Other Mormon lit? How do I get it in San Francisco where I live? The nearest deseret bookstore, yahoo.com tells me, is 87 miles away! Okay, now I'm out of epistolary gas for today. Best, Ruth - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Ruth Date: 03 Nov 2000 11:16:53 -0800 thanks for your kind letter alan... Alan Mitchell wrote: > FIY, Barry Monroe is the unorthodox bedrockmormon protagonist in the book > Angel of the Danube, which won the AML MB award as the book Barry Monroe's > Missionary Journal. I just assumed he was a household name;) > Wow Ruth, what a story! I'm amazed at our Austrian connections although > I'm a little older than your time frame. I have an interesting Jewish/Mormon > story from my mission about entertaining a SoCal Jewish girl in Vienna. My > daughter took German at the U last year. You are at UCLA! In chapter 11, > Barry Monroe visits UCLA to confer with Herr Professor Smart Dude. The > connections keep going. I'm planning on going to a wedding in Santa Monica > in early December. WOW, this is amazing, these connections, I'm very excited to read your book, please feel free to connntact me at UCLA...only I'm only there between 8AM and 2PM Tu-Th, as I commmmute twice a week from San Francisco (insane I know, I'm visitng and will probably return to Cal next fall.) > > But Woody Allen as a Mormon? I loved Woody growing up. I think he is > absolutely the best at making fun of the new sexual mores--but after his > marriage to whatshername, I wondered if he wasn't caught in his own joke. yes, WA is a major chujckle and good to in crimes and misdeamers, but real life...well... you got it right here. > > I've got an idea for a movie--why not have Woody Allen play himself and try > to teach Donnie Osmond how to be funny in the home culture. Wouldn't > Donnie's blush just be great? What if Donnie were able to pull it off at > the end? Wouldn't that change everything? ( copyright ARMitchell, 2000). hip idea! > > And Angel is now at Deseret Bookstores everywhere (yes it made the grade) > and the Seagull catalog, and where ever great Mormon books are sold. > Alan Mitchell > forgive my brevity and bad typinghere..i'm typing with one hand, my baby just awoke... Best, Ruth - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Meredith Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 03 Nov 2000 11:34:06 -0800 (PST) To move from the hypothetical to the actual experience. I was part of a cast (in high school a million years ago) that put on "Fiddler on the Roof". There were no Jewish kids in the cast as far as I can recall. There were, however, a bunch of Mormon kids. As I'm sure many of you recall, there's a scene in the play that portrays the observance of Jewish Sabbath, as well as reference to the afterlife, a wedding - not to mention Tevye's casual conversation's with God (ie. prayers). Nobody ever questioned the appropriateness of putting on this play. It was a positive and wonderful experience and dare I say spiritual experience in reference to a public school. -Kathleen Meredith - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 03 Nov 2000 19:37:00 GMT > >Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > > > But how many Jewish, Native American, or Hindu kids would > > feel comfortable performing in a play about Jesus? We need to take that > > into consideration. That's what I'm saying and I'm sticking to it. > D. Michael Martindale: >I, a Christian, would feel very comfortable performing in a play about >Jewish, Hindu, or Native American religious concepts, as long as the >play wasn't promoting those concepts as the true religion. I don't >believe the play Godspell says anything about the divinity of Christ, >only his moral teachings. It's historical and cultural, and that sort of >thing is a valid part of--yes--even public education in America. Even if "Godspell" WERE proclaiming the divinity of Jesus Christ, I still don't see a problem. People play roles that aren't them, and perform in plays they don't agree with, all the time. It's called acting. Non-murderers appear in "Arsenic and Old Lace," and plenty of non-Hebrews have played the title role in "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat" (the title role being Joseph, not the dreamcoat) (though I've seen productions where the coast WAS the star). Many of the ancient Greek plays have various gods in them -- but if no one would perform in the play because they, personally, only believe in one God, you'd have a hard time getting it produced. Lots of Neil Simon comedies make reference to Judaism, at least in passing. Many, if not most, of Simon's characters are Jewish. Are non-Jewish actors "uncomfortable" playing the roles? Apparently not, because Simon's plays are performed all over Utah, where there is a decided lack of Jews. How many non-Mormons have appeared in church-produced films in which the truthfulness of the LDS Church was boldly asserted? If an actor, even a high-school student actor, doesn't want to perform in a play because it goes against his religious beliefs, that's fine. No one's going to make him. But I think those actors are few and far between. Most people would just consider it another role, and play it. Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 03 Nov 2000 13:48:55 -0700 > Todd Petersen wrote: > > Isn't there also a problem with being narrow-minded and judgemental about > narrow-minded and judgemental people? When that woman was called an > "offensive zealot," that doesn't strike me as what you're claiming for > yourself. I think that none of us should be shrill about any of the > positions. Circularity upon circularity. If I'm told I'm narrow-minded and judgemental for calling someone an "offensive zealot" (wasn't me, but that doesn't matter), then isn't the person who tells me I'm narrow-minded and judgemental also open to the same criticism? And don't I open myself to the same criticism again by pointing it out? Pardon me while I go swallow my tail. May I submit that nearly any statement anyone makes will offend someone or other, depending on whether they're looking to take offense. I don't think we can freeze ourselves into politically-correct immobility for the sake of not offending someone by pointing out that we're offended. > Scott again: > > >Not me. Nobody accuses me of being cool. I would be a lot > "cooler" in the > >Mormon culture I'm part of if I hewed to a more low key, "orthodox" > demeanor > >and set of opinions. > > I don't mean cool that way. I mean cool like Fonzie is cool, but > perhaps I > should have said "hipper than thou" or "liberaler than thou" or > "open-minded-er than thou." I understood. We can be "hip" to a lot of things. It's all a question of whose idea of correctness we want to be hip to. Again, I don't care to be hip to Mormondom, or hip to Liberaldom, or hip to Hipdom at all. Forming our opinions based on what anyone other than the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost think (including the Light of Christ in each of us) is a losing proposition. When the Spirit communicates that to me I'm fine. When my Priesthood leaders communicate it to me, ditto. Nobody else should presume. On a slightly different note, in Salt Lake yesterday, at West High School, 3 students were kicked out of an English class for having copies of the Book of Mormon on their desks for reading during their free reading time. According to the radio interview I just heard with one of the students, the teacher told her the BofM is "offensive religious literature" and had the three of them escorted from the classroom by security. I'm pretty sure I haven't heard the whole story, but I bring it up for this one reason: why in the world would I want to be hip to that sort of fascism?? Am I wrong in thinking (and saying) that that teacher acted as an offensive zealot of the liberal sort? -- Scott Tarbet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Value of Literature Date: 03 Nov 2000 13:10:17 -0600 At 02:17 03-11-00 -0700, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I know this isn't what you meant, but what you could be doing that would >be a better use of your time is to stop beating yourself up over your >desire to write. What a waste of energy! Use that energy to read and >write. It's okay, honest. Or, as Robert A. Heinlein said: "Writing is nothing to be ashamed of if you do it in private and wash your hands afterwards." -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Utah Bulwer-Lytton Date: 03 Nov 2000 14:57:40 -0700 Ann Cannon, a columnist for the Salt Lake paper, the Deseret News, recently decided to sponsor a local version of the Bulwer-Lytton contest. That contest, you may recall, honors the memory of the Victorian novelist and playwright Edward Bulwer-Lytton, who actually began a novel with the phrase "it was a dark and stormy night." The purpose of the contest is to write the first sentence of the worst novel imaginable, and that was likewise the task Ann Cannon urged on us for the Deseret News version of the contest. Well. I am very proud to announce that I won the Deseret News contest for worst first sentence. Here is my winning entry: "The sun set over Utah Lake like a giant orange Jello-O mold, with a Cool Whip layer of clouds above the pineapple chunk mountains, the lake itself like a wavy bed of lettuce, only bluer, and as Heber stared soulfully into Velmina's Peanut-Butter-Cup eyes, in the back of his mind, not for the first time, he reflected how very long Fast Sundays seemed when you were young, and in love." It is, I hope you'll all agree, a thoroughly atrocious sentence, and one with definite LDS lit connotations. Thank you very much. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Florence Child BROWN, _I Cannot Tell a Life_ Date: 03 Nov 2000 15:12:10 -0800 [MOD: Apologies, but my work schedule made it impossible for me to get this out yesterday. I guess the rest of us can contemplate the kinds of discussions that could have taken place today at the conference, if this had been posted...] Back on Sept 19, I posted some comments about Florence Child Brown's rhetorical stance in _I Cannot Tell a Life_. I was hoping to follow it shortly with my review, but other things intervened. I'm still working on the review, but wanted to say something about the book before the conference tomorrow, because the book as an object raises some questions that might be worth discussing at the conference. (I think I've finally found the right approach to the book as a story. Brown's childrens' strong negative reaction tempts me to concentrate on how remarkable the book is rhetorically, and how her rhetorical stance answers her childrens' concerns, but it's a story first, and before I get into the theory I need to talk about the story.) Shortly after I posted my comments, probably 20 Sept., Marilyn Brown (whose e-mail client apparently can't handle dates past 12/31/99) wrote: >Harlow! Thank you! I am SO GLAD that someone of your expertise has seen the value in this book! (I CANNOT TELL A LIFE by Florence Child Brown) Thank you so much for giving us this peek, and thank you for promising to follow it with a review. The strange thing is that I thought it was remarkable, too. Marilyn ended her gracious reply by saying, "And your words are a perfect example of how valuable a literary critic can be in the life of a piece of work." Those words remind me of the controversy over Godspell, and how a well written story about Godspell could help people better understand it. I think the time is ripe for a good discussion of the critic's role in a culture (of course we've been discussing "What Should the Critic Critique," but there's a lot more to be said about how critics and criticism function in a society). But I'm more interested in Marilyn's final comment: > (P.S. If I had time I'd have you read WINE-DARK SEA > OF GRASS before I printed it--but I don't have six months [grin]) Ten months, you mean. (Twelve, now.) Although it only took me about 6 to read. You might be interested in some of the reasons the book took so long to read, besides the fact I'm a careful reader and make lots of notes. (Val-pak ads make wonderful bookmarks/notecards.) One reason might affect how you print Wine-Dark Sea of Grass. The book is poorly bound--every bad example you can remember about perfect binding fits this book, and it's difficult to feel comfortable holding a book that's going to fall apart, or whose cover is coming off. I'd like to see some discussion of self-publishing. I don't know if it's going to be a topic at the conference, but I'd like to know other peoples' experiences with self-published books as objects, how well the bindings hold up, choosing a cover, things like that. I can see a lot of advantages to self-publishing, but if the books don't hold up that's a big drawback. Harlow S. Clark P. S. There's another reason (of several) _I Cannot Tell a Life_ took me a long time to read. It's an intense book. I'm not able to read something of that intensity at great length. (Part of the reason I didn't finish Rilke's _Letters to a Young Poet_ when a friend in the stake presidency leant it to me for a week. Gotta go back to that book, and PG lib actually has a copy.) I suppose the intensity shows how much the book has to offer. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Favorite Mormon Essays Date: 03 Nov 2000 16:31:43 -0600 I welcome Andrew's Poll on this topic. The best of personal essays are astonishing things that can change our entire view of how the world works. My favorite devotional essay--using this term I think more or less the way Andrew meant it--has to be the Hugh Nibley essay, "Work We Must, but the Lunch Is Free," which I first encountered (I believe) in _BYU Today_ magazine. I've heard a rumor that the essay sufficiently upset some people that the editor lost his job over it... though frankly, I have my doubts that it actually happened (it sounds too much like the sort of rumor people would have fun repeating, whether true or not--notice how I'm repeating it here?), and frankly there's a lot Hugh Nibley has written that's way more controversial than this. But it literally made me think about my life and work in an entirely different way. The right message at the right time, for me. I've also been struck by some of Neal Maxwell's talks, particularly on patience, faith, and agency. It's hard for me to isolate individual talks of his, because they tend to run together in my mind, being all stylistically, and in many ways thematically, similar. I'm also, of course, fond of his general conference talk on faith (I believe) of a couple of years ago in which he quoted Gandalf from _The Lord of the Rings_. I personally would split off memoirs as a somewhat different category from personal essay. That said, I greatly enjoy Ed Geary's _Goodbye to Poplarhaven_. I had the experience of teaching it as one of five texts for a freshman English class at BYU. The other texts included Chaim Potok's _The Chosen_ and Frank Waters's _The Man Who Killed the Deer_. I have to say that I thought Geary's book stood up very well in that company. I'm not one of the rural-Utah contingent--I'm not from pioneer stock, and I was raised in western Oregon--but there was still something very comfortably familiar about his tales of growing up in rural Utah. An exceptionally good book. Also in the category of memoirs, though more definitively autobiographical, I have to say that I found much of Leonard Arrington's _Memoirs of a Church Historian_ very moving, in terms of an actively trained but faithful intellect working both in service to and often in tension with aspects of the institutional Church. I also have to put humorous essays in a different category. And here, I think Ed Snow is the winner for me. My favorite so far: probably Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do, publishing in _Of Curious Workmanship_, about the old songbook _Recreational Songs_. This one left me literally gasping for breath at several points. I notice that I keep defining things out of the category of personal essay, which I haven't really tackled yet. I'm not sure what my favorites are here. I recall an odd, very personal talk Pres. Kimball gave in priesthood session of General Conference several years into his tenure, when I was a teenager--unfortunately I can't recall when it was, or even clearly what was the topic, though I think that's partly because it wandered a bit. But I think it gave me, more clearly than I had ever realized before, a sense of God working through people who are very much individuals, just like me. Both Richard Poll's essay "What the Church Means to People Like Me" and Tom Rogers's "On the Importance of Doing Certain Mundane Things" (which I think of as, in some ways and across decades of time, as companion pieces) are very good, in their own way, at crystallizing a particular point of view, and its tension with/submission to the dictates and demands of the institutional Church. I know I've written in criticism of Poll's essay on this List, but that doesn't change the fact that I think it says some useful things and says them very well. I have the disquieting feeling that I'm forgetting some personally important ones in this category. To some degree, that's a result of the way I process these things, if they're important to me, which is to read them, think about them, make them part of the way I look at life, but not necessarily remember where I got them from. I remember being touched by many of the stories in _No More Strangers_, a collection of conversion stories edited (I believe) by Hartman and Connie Rector. It's hard to say if those count as personal essays, but they're certainly a distinctive--and important--Mormon form. Andrew also included some selections of Mormon-oriented literary criticism. There have been some good works published in this area (possibly the subject for its own future poll?), but the ones I find most personally revelatory/suggestive are our own Harlow Clark's speculations about modern literature, the pouring forth of the spirit after 1820, and alternative ways of viewing and constituting our relationship to literature. Sorry, I've picked these up in bits and pieces as he's posted various comments to the List, so I can't give any specific titles, although I know he's also formulated some of these in more formal essays. Sorry. That's all for now. (Or perhaps I should be sorry that there's been so much already...) Jonathan Langford Speaking solely for myself jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Ruth Date: 03 Nov 2000 16:48:35 -0700 Alan Mitchell wrote: > I've got an idea for a movie--why not have Woody Allen play himself and try > to teach Donnie Osmond how to be funny in the home culture. Wouldn't > Donnie's blush just be great? What if Donnie were able to pull it off at > the end? Wouldn't that change everything? ( copyright ARMitchell, 2000). Sorry, A.R., you can't copyright ideas. Anyone got Woody and Donnie's e-mail address? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Maxine Hanks Subject: [AML] Kimball Book Signing Sat. 2 pm Date: 04 Nov 2000 03:52:48 -0700 [MOD: Again, apologies for not getting this out yesterday. It does underscore the fact, however, that you can't always count on a post going out the same day you send it in. So if you have something time-sensitive, please try go get it in a day in advance, or send it directly to my e-mail address jlang2@pressenter.com instead of to the List. (Due to the way the List server bounces posts, I don't see subject lines, so it does no good to say "time-sensitive" or anything else in the subject line unless you send it directly to my own e-mail address.)] Try to attend. Stan Kimball will be here with Violet tomorrow. [Maxine Hanks] AUTHOR READING AND SIGNING Title: STORIES OF YOUNG PIONEERS IN THEIR WORDS Author: Violet T. Kimball Mountain Press Publishing $14.00 paper back. 225pp. Time: 2:00 p.m. Location: Sam Weller's Books 254 South Main Salt Lake City, Utah 84101 This book recounts American pioneer experiences as recorded by the children and young people who made those long treks. Violet Kimball allows the reader to follow the heartaches, hardships, joys, and victories of life on the Emigrant Trail with the unsung heroes of STORIES OF YOUNG PIONEERS: IN THEIR OWN WORDS. Violet Kimball has collected memoirs, letters, and journal entries of emigrants who were six to nineteen years old when they made the overland journey. Young historians will find STORIES OF YOUNG PIONEERS not only entertaining reading but also a through and well- researched tool to learn more about life on the Oregon, California, and Mormon Trails. This book is a wonderful opportunity for families to read together and open conversation about this aspect of western history. A "Teacher's Study Guide" is available for teachers who are interested in using this book as a teaching tool. About the author: Violet Kimball is a free-lance writer/photographer who has published feature stories in national and local magazines. Kimball says her book was ten years in the making. She read over 500 primary sources and visited many archives in California, Utah, Illinois, and Missouri collecting material. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Fred Adams to address BYU Women Nov. 4: BYU Press Release Date: 03 Nov 2000 23:38:34 EST 31Oct00 A2 [MOD: Apologies for exceeding the usual 10-12 posts for a Saturday, but I keep finding these time-sensitive posts in the in-box... Also, it doesn't say so explicitly here, but I assume this is open to the public?] [From Mormon-News] Fred Adams to address BYU Women Nov. 4 PROVO, UTAH -- Director of the Utah Shakespearean Festival Fred Adams will present a lecture hosted by BYU Women, "Drama in the Church," on Saturday (Nov. 4) at 2 p.m. in 2660 Conference Center. "The more we are informed about drama and acting, the more we will be excited about these events," said Jo Scofield, BYU Women president. In keeping with BYU Women's year-long theme, "Embracing the Arts," Adams will share his perspective on why some drama, acting and art pieces are and are not acceptable to the LDS community. BYU Women is an organization comprised of BYU female employees and spouses of BYU employees. The organization hosts a speaker monthly during the academic year. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Author Coke Newell at "Tea with Coke" in New York City: Date: 03 Nov 2000 23:38:34 EST Kent Larsen 3Nov00 A2 [From Mormon-News] LDS Author Coke Newell at "Tea with Coke" in New York City NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- LDS Author and Church media spokesman Coke Newell will speak at a meeting of the New York Metro LDS Professionals Society on Saturday, November 4th at 5:30 pm in the New York, New York Stake Center. The event, dubbed "Tea with Coke" will feature the author speaking on "Using Your Talents in Communication." Newell is the author of "Latter Days: A Guided Tour Through Six Billion Years of Mormonism," a nationally published book about the LDS Church, its origins and its beliefs, taught from a perspective that is more accessible for non-Mormons. The book got generally positive reviews from the major US media. The New York Metro LDS Professionals Society is the combined New York chapters of the J. Reuben Clarke Law Society and the BYU Management Society. This is the Society's second event this month, after an earlier event featuring Sheri Dew of the LDS Church's General Relief Society Presidency and a vice president at Church-owned Deseret Book. See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312241089/mormonnews More about Coke Newell's "Latter Days: A Guided Tour through Six Billion Years of Mormonism" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Attention All Freelance Writers Date: 03 Nov 2000 22:26:04 -0700 >Ok, folks, I need to pick your collective brains. Being married to an >actor, I have a hard time keeping a job because we move around considerably. > There are all sorts of jobs I qualify for but nobody wants to hire me >because I'm not going to be around for very long. My bright idea was to do >some freelance writing for magazines etc. I have been dutifully researching >and querying and submitting and brainstorming but have not been successful. >Not even one little greeting card submission was accepted. I know there are >writers on this list who make their living through such freelance work so my >question for you is: how did you do it? It helps to have a specific area of expertise in which to write. You then become familiar with the trade publications or other types of reading material that appeal to people with that interest. For example, I was fortunate enough to spend a few years employed at a software company. It was heck (I do remember that this is a Mormon list, but try hard to imagine a word stronger than heck), but I learned about computer software and about the computer industry, and I learned how to write marketing hype and PR fluff and software documentation and sales collateral. Blaugh, you say--but those skills have kept me out of an employer's clutches for lo these many years, and I get to write. What do you like to read about? What magazines and books do you get excited about? Write that stuff. Find out who the editors are. Start pitching ideas for articles to them. If you don't know how to pitch ideas, read one of those books from Writer's Digest Book Club about it. (I'm so glad for e-mail, since I HATE HATE HATE to call editors. I can e-mail an impressive pitch--of course, first I find out whether the editor likes to get pitches via e-mail.) One hard thing is to impress the editor ahead of time that you know what you're doing. Do you have a portfolio of published work that shows that you know what you're doing? Editors like to see this sort of thing. If you haven't actually sold articles, write a few for free, and get some tear sheets that way. I write free book reviews for a Web site. I therefore had a slew of samples I could show when an editor recently was looking for someone to write PAID book reviews for her site. Another good thing is to know a lot of people who either need your skills or who know people who need your skills. Most of my work comes through word of mouth. Recently I hooked up with a young woman who likes to pitch, sell, and manage projects--the part I hate--but hates to actually write stuff--the part I like. Maybe you can set up a similar relationship that builds to the strengths of both people. A scattergun approach is just too hard, IMHO. Find a few subjects that you want to focus on, and start to build a reputation in those fields. I recently tried pitching articles in a different industry entirely, and found that it would be too hard to build up the network of editorial contacts, knowledge of the trades, contacts at the companies involved--I went back to writing for the high-tech industry. It's weird and stupid and frustrating, but so, I learned, is any endeavor that involves human beings. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Favorite Mormon Essays Date: 04 Nov 2000 07:48:52 -0600 This is surely a hard subject for me to decide on, but for now, today, I would choose the following for my picks: Personal Essay Book Collection: "Making Peace" by Eugene England Devotional/Sermon Book Collection: "Approaching Zion" by Hugh Nibley Individual Personal Essay: "Encounter" by Douglas Alder from Dialogue, and reprinted in "Personal Voices" edited by Mary Lythgoe Bradford Individual Devotional/Sermon: "The False Gods We Worship" by Spencer W. Kimball from Ensign, June 1976, First Presidency Message Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Debbie Wager Subject: [AML] More on Utah Bulwer-Lytton Date: 03 Nov 2000 21:53:50 -0700 (MST) [MOD: Thanks to Debbie Wager for forwarding this article. It was received in the in-box before I sent out the Eric Samuelsen post on his entry, but due to list volume wasn't sent out until today.] This message was sent to you by Debbie Wager (dwager@vii.com). Note: I forward this article not only because it's a real hoot, but also because it includes the name and winning entry of one Eric Samuelsen. Good job! The following story appeared on deseretnews.com on November 02, 2000. ======= Headline: Utah has some great bad writers Author: By Ann Cannon Whoa! When I innocently asked for your faux Bulwer-Lytton bad-writing entries a month ago, I simply had NO IDEA so many of you would respond! Thank you for your giddy sentences. There wasn't a flat one in the bunch. Seriously. Which is why it was hard to pick a winner. Which is why I finally made my class of extremely brilliant and dedicated literature students at Westminster College do it for me as a part of their midterm examination. So, without further ado, I present to you the winners of this year's Deseret News Bad Writing Contest as selected by Ann Cannon's Class of Extremely Brilliant and Dedicated Literature Students. Sentences featuring stupid peasants were popular, including this winner written by Mary Hedengren: "The peasant walked past Stonehenge, that Neolithic structure dedicated by ancients to astronomy, or to religion, or to both, as the fact of the alignment of its famous heelstone coordinates with the rising of the sun on the longest day of the year would suggest a ceremony for sun worshippers; but he knew nothing of that, being just a peasant." Eric Johnsen also turned a neat peasant-intensive sentence: "It was a stark and dormy blight which devoured the peasants' harvest, thus inspiring Osgoth, the imbecile chieftain of their autonomous collective, to once again proclaim a feast wherein the council must devise their plan." Susan Andrews scored with her homage to the enduring appeal of bad boys: "I knew he was trouble as he slouched toward me, like a yuppie James Dean in tasseled loafers, only maybe a little shorter and with straighter hair; and the insolence dripped off him like the water drips off that guy in the shower on those TV deodorant-soap commercials." Jacki Sorensen won points for her timely entry: " 'Honey, I'm home,' Richard weakly called to a hauntingly empty house, as sweat glistened on his face and soaked his shirt, a result of having to walk six miles to his home on a scorching hot day after his special-edition burgundy Toyota 4-Runner had a blowout on one of his Firestone brand tires, which, unknown to him, would shortly be recalled -- an ominous foreshadowing of how his life would soon change." On the other hand, Richard Romney's sentence was admired for its timelessness -- literally. "It was not just a commonplace day, it was a day so ordinary that it was indistinguishable from the day before it, or from the day after it, or from any day a month from now, or a year from now, or any other day in between; and our hero was not just a commonplace man, he was a man so ordinary that he was indistinguishable from any man you met before, or that you might meet any day a month from now, or a year from now, or any other day in between." Ron Pierson impressed the judges with his overwrought local weather report: "It was a bright and sunny day, a day that occurs only rarely in the Utah summer, a day where the pallid blue sky stretched from the top of the Wasatch Mountains on the east, to the bottom of the Bingham Copper Pit on the west, broken only by a single distended cumulus nimbus cloud that slowly changed shape from a pirate ship to a portrait of George Washington to a desert tortoise stranded on its back, with legs flailing back and forth as if they powered the gentle breeze that made the leaves of the quaken asp dance to and fro to the jumbled music of the hidden songbirds; a day so splendid, so perfect, that LaWanda had difficulty believing the weather prognosticators who said it would all change into a dark and stormy night." But in the end, it was Eric Samuelsen's Mormon-Utah-specific sentence that ruled: "The sun set over Utah Lake like a giant orange Jell-O mold, with a Cool Whip layer of clouds above the pineapple chunk mountains, the lake itself like a wavy bed of lettuce, only bluer, and as Heber stared soulfully into Velmina's Peanut-Butter-Cup eyes, in the back of his mind, not for the first time, he reflected how very long Fast Sundays seemed when you were young, and in love." Opening sentences just do not get any better/worse (please choose one) than that! AUTHOR'S NOTE: If you have any desire to enter the real Bulwer-Lytton contest, check out the home page at www.bulwer-lytton.com. Special thanks to Jim "the e-mail virus-slayer" Liddle for sending along this information. E-MAIL: acannon@desnews.com ---------- Copyright 2000, Deseret News Publishing Co. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 04 Nov 2000 09:17:58 -0500 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > I, a Christian, would feel very comfortable performing in a play about > Jewish, Hindu, or Native American religious concepts, as long as the > play wasn't promoting those concepts as the true religion. The implication here is that since you wouldn't feel bad about doing a play about a figure from another faith, others shouldn't feel bad either. The fact that you're fine with it does not mean that there is no issue here. > I don't believe the play Godspell says anything about the divinity of Christ, > only his moral teachings. It's historical and cultural, and that sort of > thing is a valid part of--yes--even public education in America. Yes, but in Ogden do you think that this is the issue as interpreted by the people having trouble? My primary point in all of this is that some folks have become outraged at the play and others have become outraged at the outrage. The problem, it seems, comes when politics like these butt up against something we like. If GODSPELL were a horrible play, clearly horrible, the question would be moot. In my mind, only the scriptures have innate value. Everything else has contingent value, and it is this contingent value that can be affected by culture, time, taste, and the like. So there are those on the list who think that the play ought to be produced that people shouldn't try to "micromanage" the artistic affairs of others. I suppose this sould be okay if everyone was on their own; however, we live in communities, and within those communities, there are people who are clearly more or less capable of dealing with certain things (like productions of GODSPELL or A CHILDREN'S HOUR or ANGELS IN AMERICA). Still we're talking about a public school, not a private theater. The issues are clearly different. To ask our neighbors to squelch their outrage seems like an unfair request. We not only have a right to our opinions in this country, but we have a right to march, and to vote, and to try to affect change based on those opinions. D. Michael Martindale has been vociferous in his claims against critics telling him what he can and can't write. Shouldn't the same courtesy be extended to people in their public communications, in their abilities to stand up for what they believe is right, even if we take issue with it? Some of us have been taking issue with these people in Odgen because we think that they are wrong. Had we agreed with them, we'd be leaping to their aid. What if we are wrong in this? What if the "right" thing (in God's eyes) is to NOT do that play at that place and at that time? There hasn't been much discussion at all about that, and it seems like an important avenue of the discussion. Can we imagine circumstances where we would NOT want to do certain plays in certain venues at certain times? Are there points at which we would draw the line? Maybe not at the same point as these other people, but I'm sure the lines are there. D. Michael Martindale's line comes at the point where the play would attempt to represent the "true religion" of the people putting it on. I'd be interested to know if others were as able to indicate the location of their line. In high school I played the Matthew Harrison Brady part in INHERIT THE WIND. I went to a private Catholic high school. Even in that play there is some attempt to understand Brady, to NOT write him off as a one-dimensional simpleton. That move came from his opponent. The urge to demonize is powerful. So is the urge to say that since I'm okay with something, IT is okay in general terms. My students in freshman composition often argue that something is not true because they are the exception (i.e. Christians are not close-minded because I am not close-minded). We can not always ascribe the characteristics of the individual to the characteristics of the group. If this logic really worked, then from my point of view, the Saints would already be perfect . -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Bulwer-Lytton Date: 04 Nov 2000 11:46:25 -0500 Thank you Eric. I for one, will never look at a jello-mold the same way ever again! Debbie Brown ----- Original Message ----- > "The sun set over Utah Lake like a giant orange Jello-O mold, with a Cool Whip layer of clouds above the pineapple chunk mountains, the lake itself like a wavy bed of lettuce, only bluer, and as Heber stared soulfully into Velmina's Peanut-Butter-Cup eyes, in the back of his mind, not for the first time, he reflected how very long Fast Sundays seemed when you were young, and in love." > > It is, I hope you'll all agree, a thoroughly atrocious sentence, and one with definite LDS lit connotations. Thank you very much. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Introductions: Ruth Date: 04 Nov 2000 10:22:24 -0700 > LAST of all, I've some thoughts about obtaining Mormon lit >(Signature press gets my >eyeballs b/c of its quality work, its fine range of perspectives >and most importantly >its WEBSITE and b/c it promotes titles on amazon.com. Other Mormon >lit? How do I get it >in San Francisco where I live? The nearest deseret bookstore, >yahoo.com tells me, is 87 >miles away! There's a book store right next to the Oakland Temple, and when I was there in 1996, another LDs bookstore in San Ramon. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Fred Adams to address BYU Women Nov. 4: BYU Press Release Date: 04 Nov 2000 11:09:33 -0700 [MOD: I'm posting this correction although at this point the story is historical. Any reports on what actually happened, what was talked about, etc.?] Fred was double-booked and he's in Denver. His associate producer will be taking the lecture. > From: BYU Press Release > To: Mormon News > Subject: MN Fred Adams to address BYU Women Nov. 4: BYU Press Release > 31Oct00 A2 > Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:00:00 -0400 > > [From Mormon-News] > > Fred Adams to address BYU Women Nov. 4 > > PROVO, UTAH -- > Director of the Utah Shakespearean Festival Fred Adams > will present a lecture hosted by BYU Women, "Drama in the Church," on > Saturday (Nov. 4) at 2 p.m. in 2660 Conference Center. > > "The more we are informed about drama and acting, the more we will be > excited about these events," said Jo Scofield, BYU Women president. > In keeping with BYU Women's year-long theme, "Embracing the Arts," > Adams will share his perspective on why some drama, acting and art > pieces are and are not acceptable to the LDS community. > > BYU Women is an organization comprised of BYU female employees and > spouses of BYU employees. The organization hosts a speaker monthly > during the academic year. > > > >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events > Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included > Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites > without permission. Please link to our pages instead. > For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ > > Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com > Put appropriate commands in body of the message: > To join: subscribe mormon-news > To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news > To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 24 Sep 2000 12:27:09 -0600 Scott Tarbet wonders if the teacher, who dismissed the students with BoM's on their desks, could be considered an offensive liberal zealot. I don't know the details, but is it possible the kids could have been flaunting their BoM's, trying to make a statement or trying to get a rise out of their teacher? Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KGrant100@aol.com Subject: [AML] re: Value of Literature Date: 04 Nov 2000 16:59:31 EST Tracie, I think many of us can relate to your feelings. Have you read _The Artist's Way_ and _Right to Write_ by Julia Cameron? I recommend them both strongly. I'd start with _The Artist's Way_: each chapter focuses on a different aspect of creative healing/freedom. I think you'll find some much-needed support and guidance in these books. Kathy > > Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:36:51 -0500 > From: "Tracie Laulusa" > Subject: [AML] Value of Literature (was: November Editorial) > > I have been debating with myself over this importance of literature question > for the past several weeks-months even. It wasn't that long ago that I > connected with my desire to write again, and it has been a massively > frustrating experience. > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brent J. Rowley" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Ruth Date: 04 Nov 2000 15:55:06 -0700 Ruth wrote: > Other Mormon lit? How do I get it in San Francisco where I live? > The nearest deseret bookstore, yahoo.com tells me, is 87 > miles away! > Click on this internet link: http://deseretbook.com/other-booksellers/ and when you get there, select California. There's a fairly long list of (non-Deseret Book) LDS stores all up and down the State, including many in the Bay Area. Good luck, BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 04 Nov 2000 15:54:59 -0800 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > Performing Godspell is going to do a lot more good for bringing the > church vs state dichotomy back into the realm of common sense than the > dubious debate about prayer in school. Religious works of art _should_ > be performable in schools--as long as a specific religious outlook isn't > regularly favored--because religion is as much a part of our culture and > heritage as anything else. To pretend in the classroom that religion > doesn't exist is an educational lie. Interesting that the current legal/cultural quagmire is ambiguous enough that different school districts take different approaches. In our area, one school district does not allow Christmas carols to be sung at all. In an adjacent one, they can be sung as long as songs from other traditions are also included. The latter solution makes a lot more sense to me, but the array of cultures in the Bay area is so wide that many groups will always be left out. (We have schools here with students speaking more than a dozen distinct languages). At some point, I suppose you could excuse a district for throwing up its hands and saying no to everything in order to protect itself from potential legal issues. But it is still sort of sad. -- Rob Pannoni Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: [AML] AML Writer's Conference Date: 04 Nov 2000 18:19:44 -0800 (PST) [MOD: Reports from those who attended--what was said, what was particularly useful, etc.--would be welcome on the List, and read with interest by those of us too far away to attend in person!] Thanks, D Michael for a fabulous writer's conference! I heard so many interesting things that I hope we'll get to discuss here in the next few days, and I was rejuvenated as a writer and a participant in this exciting community. Good job! ==== Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marie Knowlton" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 05 Nov 2000 09:28:25 MST I couldn't agree more with Eric Snider's comments about the "Godspell" controversy. May I add: The mission of public education is not necessarily mindless inclusion of every student, whether or not those students wish to participate. If we refuse to allow anything at all in the schools that could potentially offend or conflict with anyone's beliefs, what we will ultimately end up with is a resounding void of culture, art, discussion, and critical thinking. All of those elements are crucial to a meaningful education. How ironic that we preach diversity and inclusion, then water down the educational experience so that those very elements, for the sake of political correctness, are omitted! Those who wish to participate in theatre, dance, music, writing, etc. ought to be able to do so unshackled by the restrictive criteria of others whose only interest is leveling the field for people who likely don't even want to play. I trust that those of us who are involved in the performing arts can tolerate and even respect different beliefs, cultures, etc. If we can't, then we need to rethink our own education. [Marie Knowlton] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: [AML] Re: AML Writer's Conference Date: 04 Nov 2000 18:43:25 -0800 (PST) At the writer's conference today, Eric Snider and Elbert Peck sat on a panel entitled "How to criticize culture without losing your recommend" (or something like that). The topic was so rich, and we only barely tapped it. I had a question that we didn't have time to discuss, so I would like to ask either of you to address it (or anyone else who wants to). Eric told of a "high-ranking BYU official" who had objected to a humorous column he had written loosely on the subject of General Conference. It seemed clear to Eric (and I believe him because I have read his columns) that the authority had not understood what Eric was trying to do, and so his objection was unjustified. But when someone gets offended, Eric, because they misunderstand, then haven't you failed to communicate? So my question is this: knowing that your audience is LDS and will sometimes misunderstand you, how do you decide where to draw the line? Is it the best policy for a writer to rely solely on her own conscience when deciding whether something is harmless play or possibly offensive? When you have written a column, Eric, or when you are considering printing something, Elbert, on what do you base your decision about whether or not you've "gone too far"? With the audience you write for, Eric, including people who might misunderstand, do you rely on anything but your own sense of propriety to judge what is OK to mock? Elbert spoke about the importance of being fully honest in our writing. It seems to me that a writer has nothing else but his own sense of propriety and conscience to rely on. But subjectivity increases the possibility of failure in communication, doesn't it? How does a writer make such decisions? ==== Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 05 Nov 2000 12:45:15 -0700 Todd Robert Pererson said: > > > > Isn't there also a problem with being narrow-minded and > judgemental about > > narrow-minded and judgemental people? When that woman was called an > > "offensive zealot," that doesn't strike me as what you're claiming for > > yourself. I think that none of us should be shrill about any of the > > positions. Scott Tarbet replied: > > Circularity upon circularity. If I'm told I'm narrow-minded and > judgemental > for calling someone an "offensive zealot" (wasn't me, but that doesn't > matter), then isn't the person who tells me I'm narrow-minded and > judgemental also open to the same criticism? And don't I open > myself to the > same criticism again by pointing it out? Pardon me while I go swallow my > tail. The term "offensive zealot" was orginally used in support of Eric Samuelson's heartfelt post. However, if the woman in question was being directly addressed, I believe different language might be chosen. But I think Todd has an excellent point! I think there is a huge difference between calling someone an "offensive zealot" and saying, "I disagree with you strongly for these reasons." Elbert Peck at the AML Writers Conference Saturday talked about how writers can be successful at cultural critique without antagonizing and turning off the audience. He advised that we: (1) Say "I'm sad," rather than "I'm mad," (which is exactly what Eric Samuelsen did when he brought this topic up, if I remember correctly). (2) Use words (metaphors) LDS readers are comfortable with, like the advisability of making "growth and progress" rather than a proposal for radical "change and evolution." (3) Use inclusive words. Say "we need to be open-minded" rather than "they need to be open-minded." (4) Own one's feelings. "I feel" rather than labeling "them" and name-calling. (5) Present the evidence and let the audience draw their own conclusions rather than trying to force feed them. The efficacy of communication depends on using appropriate rhetorical strategies. If what we want to do is complain about narrow-minded and uneducated people, then by all means, let us vent our wrath. If the term "offensive zealot" was used to indicate support for Eric's heartfelt post, and I believe it was, then in that instance it may indeed be appropriate diction. But if we are addressing the mother who was trying to respond to her son's tender feelings about portraying the Savior in a new and startling way, then I think we might give her the benefit of the doubt. Who knows, if she could hear the testimonies that have been given on the list about "Godspell" she might change her mind. So if we want to enact change, we must respect other's opinions and treat them with dignity. Cultural enlightenment and education should enable greater tolerance and listening, not less. > > May I submit that nearly any statement anyone makes will offend someone or > other, depending on whether they're looking to take offense. I > don't think > we can freeze ourselves into politically-correct immobility for > the sake of > not offending someone by pointing out that we're offended. We can point it out in a respectful manner. I believe people are more important that insisting that we are right. (I'm paraphrasing Elbert Peck again here--We must tell the truth as we know it, clearly, strongly.) But we must also recognize that zealots everywhere are also trying to tell truth. Only if we listen and then reply will we have the slightest chance of any communication taking place.) > Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Favorite Mormon Essays Date: 05 Nov 2000 16:37:19 -0800 (PST) I couldn't tell if you wanted votes for individual essays or for collections, but my vote for best single essay would have to go to Eugene England for "Why the Church is as True as the Gospel," a classic that I think should be assigned to every adult ward member everywhere. As to collections: Orson Scott Card's "Storyteller in Zion" and Emma Lou Thayne's "As For Me and My House" have my votes. Both drastically changed my thinking on what it means to be a Mormon, a Mormon artist, and a Mormon woman. Both left me hungry for more. ==== Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Ruth Date: 06 Nov 2000 00:05:14 -0800 Ruth wrote: > LAST of all, I've some thoughts about obtaining Mormon lit (Signature press > gets my eyeballs b/c of its quality work, its fine range of perspectives and > most importantly its WEBSITE and b/c it promotes titles on amazon.com. Other > Mormon lit? How do I get it in San Francisco where I live? The nearest > deseret bookstore, yahoo.com tells me, is 87 miles away! Okay, now I'm out > of epistolary gas for today. Best, Ruth > Ruth, you don't have to drive to Sacramento to Deseret Bookstore to find Mormon literature. You can go to Seagull Book & Tape in Oakland. From Berkeley, take Highway 13 to Oakland, and get off at Lincoln Avenue. Instead of turning right as though you're heading to the LDS Temple, turn left and go over the overpass. There'll be a little shopping center on your left. Seagull Book is there, at 5046 Westminster Lane, phone (510) 530-0600 or (800) 805-6667. Bring coins for the parking meter. Or, when you're visiting UCLA, drive down out of Westwood and go to Santa Monica Boulevard. Seagull Book has another store at 10714 Santa Monica Blvd., phone (310) 475-0768 or (800) 666-6257. It's across from the Los Angeles Temple, at Overland and Santa Monica, in a tiny little strip mall with a laundromat, dry cleaners, and 7-11 as neighbors. It's tricky getting into the parking lot, though, because the strip mall is actually on a kind of frontage road parallel to Santa Monica Blvd., and there are traffic lights both at Overland & Santa Monica, and Overland & what I call the frontage road. Or you can contact Seagull Book at www.seagullbook.com Regards, Frank Maxwell Gilroy, California - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Attention All Freelance Writers Date: 06 Nov 2000 10:18:27 -0600 Marianne, I have to endorse much of what has already been said about picking an area of specialty and building connections and relationships. Often enough, it's not a case of "picking" an area but falling into an area, or discovering an area where you're already knowledgeable. In my case, while working on a master's degree I took a job editing/rewriting teacher's guides for an educational technology company. By the time I had finished working for them (three years later) and was moving elsewhere for a PhD program (since given up), I had also worked as an editor and training product writer for the same company. To make a long story short, what I've found is that it's now far easier for me to get more work through my contacts in educational technology than it would be to branch out into other fields, even though I have an interest in other fields as well. My knowledge base makes me a valuable resource for the companies I work for. And I tend to build up long-term relationships with companies (including the one that laid me off--but that's another story) that makes them feel good about working with me. So the moral of the story is: rather than trying to a be a general "writer," you'll probably find that you'll want to focus in on a couple of areas--maybe the ones where you encounter your first success. One thing tends to lead to another, but it takes a while, and it's often tough getting those initial leads. Another thing you need to consider is exactly what type of work you want to do or are qualified to do. You mentioned magazine writing, but that's only one, relatively small facet of this kind of work. Are you interested in/do you have the skills for editing? Proofreading? What about writing other kinds of documents--teacher's guides, manuals, and the like? What about newspaper feature articles? The pay isn't great, but it helps build up your portfolio. If I were you, I'd consider doing an inventory of your interests, hobbies, and areas in which you're knowledgeable. Then think about what kinds of writing opportunities might exist that relate to those areas. Do you know an author you could interview for a feature article somewhere? If so, what would the logical placement for that article be? Sorry I don't have any more concrete suggestions, or any ideas that are more closely related to your specific areas of inquiry. I hope you're able to pick up something worthwhile that fits your individual circumstances. There's a lot out there--but it does take time and connections to get it... Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] Re: Introduction: Ruth Date: 06 Nov 2000 08:44:55 -0800 "the idea of a Mormon protagonist faced with challenges both within himself and the outside world is a great one. What a fascinating culture! " Ruth! WOW!! I don't know if you realize how many of us are sitting and staring at our screens, our hearts beating wildly. (At least I am.) We're fascinating! They want us! This has got to be one of the great inspirational posts on AML-list. Thank you! The race to the keyboards is on! -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: [AML] Re: AML Writer's Conference Date: 06 Nov 2000 17:19:08 GMT Darlene Young: >At the writer's conference today, Eric Snider and >Elbert Peck sat on a panel entitled "How to criticize >culture without losing your recommend" (or something >like that). The topic was so rich, and we only barely >tapped it. That's for sure! Don't get me started. > >Eric told of a "high-ranking BYU official" who had >objected to a humorous column he had written loosely >on the subject of General Conference. It seemed clear >to Eric (and I believe him because I have read his >columns) that the authority had not understood what >Eric was trying to do, and so his objection was >unjustified. But when someone gets offended, Eric, >because they misunderstand, then haven't you failed to >communicate? I would have to say no. If the fact that someone got offended meant that the writer had failed to communicate, then that would mean nearly every writer in history had failed to communicate. Because frankly, everything -- especially when it uses humor or satire -- can offend someone, somewhere. If a vast majority of my readers got offended by something I wrote, then yes, I'd have to think I'd probably screwed up. But when 99 percent have no problem with it, I can't take the 1 percent who do to mean I've failed. I may have failed to communicate with them, specifically, but most of the people who have been upset by things I've written in my column have been people who were not my target audience anyway. (When I wrote at BYU, for example, my main audience was the students -- and you'll notice it was a BYU official who got upset. I have no idea how to write something that will entertain middle-aged BYU officials; fortunately, they made up only a small part of my readership, so I didn't have to focus on them. I wrote for the students, and I usually knew how to write for them.) >So my question is this: knowing that >your audience is LDS and will sometimes misunderstand >you, how do you decide where to draw the line? Is it >the best policy for a writer to rely solely on her own >conscience when deciding whether something is harmless >play or possibly offensive? ... With the >audience you write for, Eric, including people who >might misunderstand, do you rely on anything but your >own sense of propriety to judge what is OK to mock? Knowing that my audience is very sensitive about certain things, I figure my conscience is the only thing I CAN go by. If I omitted everything I thought MIGHT offend someone, nothing would get written. (This might be seen as a plus to some people.) I have a testimony; I have a sense of "there's a time and place for everything"; I'm pretty good at recognizing things that shouldn't be discussed and/or made light of in public. If I were a non-Mormon trying to do this, I probably wouldn't have the right instincts about it. But since I am LDS, I feel I have the background necessary to know what's "too far." That said, I will tell you that I often think of, and sometimes actually type on my computer, jokes that I know I can't actually get away with because they're too outrageous, too shocking or too insensitive. They're funny to me, and I can probably tell them to certain friends who I know won't be offended. But I know my readers wouldn't stand for it, and I wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on in arguing with them. So I don't publish it. I mention this just to make it clear that "what's appropriate to publish" isn't 100 percent the same as "everything that occurs to me." In other words, if people have been offended by my columns, they should see what I DON'T put it! Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hansen Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 06 Nov 2000 10:33:57 -0700 While in my mind Godspell does not cross the line into the "bad to be viewed" category, I get more than a little nervous when people make statements that seem to indicate that educated individuals should "toerate" some religious or cultural depiction which may conflict with our own without any boundaries. For example, if Ogden High had chosen to perform the musical "Hair" instead of "Godspell" would it have made a difference? Would the parents who complain be intolerant for not wanting their children to remove their clothes on stage as part of their public school's musical? What if they perform a play glorifying the crucifixion as a justified end to a bad man? Or claiming that Joseph Smith deserved to die? As has already been said, it is to me a matter of individual line drawing. While I may not agree with the complaining Ogden High parents about where they drew their line, IMO saying that we should have no lines is probably worse. Dave Hansen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: [AML] Re: AML Writer's Conference Date: 06 Nov 2000 14:14:09 -0700 > When you have written a > column, Eric, or when you are considering printing > something, Elbert, on what do you base your decision > about whether or not you've "gone too far"? With the > audience you write for, Eric, including people who > might misunderstand, do you rely on anything but your > own sense of propriety to judge what is OK to mock? > > How does a writer make such decisions? > > > ==== > Darlene Young This wasn't directed to me, but it's such a good question I hope you won't mind me sticking in my two cents. I have had a real problem in this area in the [distant?] past and have had to acknowledge that what I think is funny or clever is not alway tactful, and may even be offensive. This is not an issue of censorship, IMHO. It is one of communication, as Darlene suggests. Sometimes we communicate something we never intended. So, what I do with sentitive stuff, the stuff Darlene is talking about, is to run it past someone else whose tastes and insight differ from mine. This may include running "iffy" parts of a manuscript we intend to publish past some of the folks at Deseret Book, or running an essay I've written past my wife (who fortunately put up with my blunt and thoughtless nature until I could learn a little tact). Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] Looking for Panelists (LTUE) Date: 06 Nov 2000 09:11:49 -0700 I was asked to pass this along. Please respond to the address at the bottom or to me personally, not the list. Marny Parkin Hi, everyone! It's that time of year. Time to let me know if you're interested in being on a panel for "Life, the Universe and Everything." The symposium is March 1-3, 2001. Guests so far include: Harry Turtledove Tracy Hickman Jeanne Cavelos Sam Longoria I'm over both writing and media tracks, so if you are interested in either, please email me and let me know what type of panel/panels you'd like to be on. And I'll let you know what panels we end up with next month. :) And please let me know what times you'll be available. :) Charlie Harmon CharleneH@aol - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 06 Nov 2000 10:13:49 -0500 Nan McCulloch's point: > Scott Tarbet wonders if the teacher, who dismissed the students with BoM's > on their desks, could be considered an offensive liberal zealot. I don't > know the details, but is it possible the kids could have been flaunting > their BoM's, trying to make a statement or trying to get a rise out of their > teacher? is an excellent one. Isn't suggestion a lot like the kind of pride that got the folks in Missouri so enraged? Nan's point, which is a great one, is that things aren't always what they seem. I would add that there is always spin. It is part of living in a telestial world. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 06 Nov 2000 16:21:26 -0700 While I don't agree with the reaction of the parents in the article, I couldn't help but think as I was lurking that they (the parents) are a bit misunderstood. I don't think they're the terrible people the discussion has made them out to be. I'm guessing that they are squeamish at taking something sacred and doing anything that might (in any way, shape, or form) profane or desecrate it. I haven't seen Godspell, but from what I've read on the list about it, I'm guessing I would personally enjoy it. However, I can easily understand how some people would not be able to see past the clowns, and think that the show is little more than a mockery of something they hold dear. I do find it ironic what people do and don't object to. When I was in _Joseph_ (I believe it was the first of the slew of such shows in Utah--honest--it was back in 91), I had a friend who refused to audition because she couldn't take the idea of "what if Christ were to walk in while I was on stage?" I asked myself the same question after making it into the play, and decided that I would smile bigger and dance harder. But she didn't say a word of complaint when I performed in _Fiddler on the Roof._ What made the difference? Is it the style? Again, this could go back to the Godspell issue (with clowns, an electric fence, etc.). The music in _Joseph_ is very fun, and some people might consider it irreverent or even disrespectful to a prophet of god. Apparently my friend did. The music in _Fiddler_ is more "reverent" (for lack of a better word), and granted, Tevye doesn't don an Elvis suit. But I still say that I had an intensely spiritual experience in both _Joseph_ and _Fiddler_. Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: Re: [AML] Attention All Freelance Writers Date: 06 Nov 2000 19:06:04 MST Thanks to all who offered advice (not to discourage others from proffering their advice as well, I just wanted to make sure I thanked you all for your thoughtful replies). I'll just continue to plug away (and now I have a few more sites to plug away on). Mostly I have been querying and sending things to whatever lead looks do-able from writersmarket.com (an article and some quizes for _All About You_, a magazine aimed at preteen girls, Salt Lake Magazine, a few greeting card companies, I'm racking my brain as to what I could write about for _Big World Magazine_ which doesn't pay much but looks like they would take on a person without published clips). I have been focusing on writing in particular, but I do have a degree in English and I have some experience with editing. Heaven only knows that editing from home would be better than my current job. (I hate the idea of having to be anyplace at 8 in the morning. Ugh. I could be working at 8, but to have to be presentable to the world...) Anyhow, thanks for the encouragement and advice. I will let you know when I am successful! Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 07 Nov 2000 00:33:44 EST Scott Tarbet wonders if the teacher, who dismissed the students with BoM's on their desks, could be considered an offensive liberal zealot. I don't know the details, but is it possible the kids could have been flaunting their BoM's, trying to make a statement or trying to get a rise out of their teacher? Nan McCulloch _______________ The teacher claims (in one article I read) that they were only supposed to be reading "fiction". Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 07 Nov 2000 01:12:59 -0700 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > What if the "right" thing (in > God's eyes) is to NOT do that play at that place and at that time? There > hasn't been much discussion at all about that, and it seems like an > important avenue of the discussion. How in the world is anyone supposed to know if that's true? Only by personal prayer and revelation--but if I start saying we can't produce that play because God revealed to me we shouldn't, I am being even more out of line than any of these other reactions that have been going on. I don't have the right to receive revelation for everybody else. All a person can say is, I don't feel like it's right for me. Allow others their own personal choice in the matter. After all, what if, in God's eyes, it was wrong for that one boy to perform in Godspell, but it was right for others to perform in it? > D. Michael Martindale's line comes at the point where > the play would attempt to represent the "true religion" of the people > putting it on. That's not my line. That's my concession to the idiotic interpretation of the first amendment with regard to religion that is imposed upon our school systems. If it were up to me, I would place no restrictions on what to perform based on which religion is the subject matter. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gabi Kupitz Subject: [AML] Annual Christmas Booktalk Date: 06 Nov 2000 16:21:20 -0700 The Annual Christmas Booktalk takes place on Monday, 13 November 2000 at 4:00 p.m. in the Harold B. Lee Library Auditorium (Level 1). Janice Card, BYU Bookstore Children's Book Buyer, will discuss new titles. The event is free to the public and campus community. Earlier that day (same venue/10:00 a.m.), Orson Scott Card (yes, Janice and Scott are related) will be lecturing on "Scripture and Fiction." Book signing will take place in the BYU Bookstore following the lecture. Why not spend the day on campus? P.S. The BYU Bookstore Children's Book Week Sale started today. It will run through 18 November 2000 with some selected titles 25-60% off (limited to stock on hand). Have a great day! Gabi Kupitz Brigham Young University Harold B. Lee Library Room 6458 Provo, UT 84602 Phone: (801) 378-6735 FAX: (801) 378-3221 E-mail: gabriele_kupitz@byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Re: AML Writer's Conference Date: 07 Nov 2000 01:36:25 -0700 Darlene Young wrote: > But when someone gets offended, Eric, > because they misunderstand, then haven't you failed to > communicate? So my question is this: knowing that > your audience is LDS and will sometimes misunderstand > you, how do you decide where to draw the line? Is it > the best policy for a writer to rely solely on her own > conscience when deciding whether something is harmless > play or possibly offensive? I'm no well-known columnist out offending General Authorities, but I've experienced the same thing on a much smaller scale. It's next to impossible to avoid such an experience if one does much communicating over the Internet. The scenario goes like this: I express an opinion. Someone is offended by it, and assumes that everyone should think like he does, therefore my expression of that opinion was evil. This scenario cannot be countenanced. I think it's obvious to any AML-Lister that there is a wide variety of opinions among intelligent, decent people, and assuming that everyone should think the way I do is merely a form of bigotry. I'm not talking about disagreeing with me and saying why. I'm talking about taking it one step further and questioning my character for thinking differently from someone else. I never worry (much) about whether I will offend anyone. I just say what I'm thinking. Occasionally it's gotten me into trouble, but in almost every case when that happens, it's because the offended person makes no attempt to understand what I meant. They merely assume I'm being evil when I said it, without even considering that I might be looking at things from a different angle where my opinion makes sense. I don't believe we have any obligation to cater to such an attitude. If we did, dialog would cease. Isn't the whole point of dialog to come to understand opinions different from ours, growing out of points of view that see things from a different angle than we do? Growth will never occur if we only speak with those who already think like us. People who refuse to hear opposing opinions, and complain about it when they do, should be pitied, but not indulged. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Re: AML Writer's Conference Date: 07 Nov 2000 01:45:48 -0700 "Eric D. Snider" wrote: > In other words, if people have been offended by my columns, they should see > what I DON'T put it! Is there a venue in which you could publish the things left out? I'd like to read them! -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 07 Nov 2000 08:01:09 -0700 I consider these parents as "hyper-spiritual." That is, they are overly concerned, to the point of near-fanaticism with this issue. They react the way that old-time Pharasees did to the Law: sacrificing its spirit for micro-management of the finer points. Can we be too "spiritual?" According to a talk years ago by Dallin Oaks about "Gospel Hobbies," we can be. When we are so concerned about living the day-to-day aspects of the Gospel that we miss the big picture, we are too "spiritual." To bring this around to literature and the arts. The parents have another weakness that is not Mormon alone but largely cultural. They don't understand what the purpose of art is. Like many people who don't understand what a scientific theory is, many people don't understand that art has different rules by which it operates. The Holy Bible exploits these rules all over the place but most "hyper-spiritual" people don't know that. For instance, they think that, because the Bible tells the story of Job, that it must be an historical reality. In all likelihood, Job is a short story about a fictional meeting between God and Satan. (Mormons literalists should have a particularly hard time dealing with the doctrine that God, having once kicked Satan out of his Kingdom, later allows him back into his presence -- that doesn'st wash in Mormon doctrine.) There are other examples of the Bible using fictional tools to get across a greater point. Thom Duncan My new email: ThomDuncan@prodigy.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] Re: AML Writer's Conference Date: 07 Nov 2000 07:16:14 -0800 Eric Snider wrote: > In other words, if people have been offended by my columns, they should see what I DON'T put it! Have you ever considered putting together a collection of these and publishing them for those of us who DO have a sense of humor? Lynn Gardner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: [AML] Re: AML Writer's Conference Date: 07 Nov 2000 07:55:46 -0800 (PST) D Michael said, "I just say what I'm thinking. Occasionally it's gotten me into trouble, but in almost every case when that happens, it's because the offended person makes no attempt to understand what I meant." It's so easy to say, "You were offended because you made no attempt to understand." But how do you know that they made no attempt? You know what you WANTED to communicate. Why is it necessarily the other person's fault if there was a failure to understand? Maybe you did a poor job of communicating. Or maybe it WAS an offensive thing you said (as if there were some absolute definition of "offensive" out there and everything ever said either IS or ISN'T. I see the ridiculousness of that). I just want to know how you judge when the "fault" of misunderstanding that leads to offense is on the head of the reader and when it is on the head of the speaker. It's not impossible, is it, that a speaker could truly be at fault? ==== Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 07 Nov 2000 10:22:01 -0700 It's certainly possible, and that's why I mentioned that we certainly don't know the whole story. There's a lot to it that didn't make the news and probably won't, now that those kids' 15 minutes of fame has passed. > -----Original Message----- > > Scott Tarbet wonders if the teacher, who dismissed the students with BoM's > on their desks, could be considered an offensive liberal zealot. I don't > know the details, but is it possible the kids could have been flaunting > their BoM's, trying to make a statement or trying to get a rise > out of their > teacher? > > Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 07 Nov 2000 13:02:13 -0500 Aren't there those who might argue that the BoM is fiction? But good grief, maybe they were just hoping to finish their Seminary reading assignment for that day. As long as they are reading, what does it matter if its fiction, non-fiction, or a comic book? Debbie Brown ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 12:33 AM > The teacher claims (in one article I read) that they were > only supposed to be reading "fiction". > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: [AML] AML Writers' Conference Date: 07 Nov 2000 10:28:33 -0700 Here are my notes from the conference. I hope they will be useful to somebody besides myself. My notes are somewhat more sketchy than this in some places, so I filled in from memory. If I misquoted someone or left out a main point, I apologize. I hope others, especially those who attended different sessions, will post their notes too. Debbie Wager _Characterization and Dialog_ with John Bennion and Carol Lynch Williams They started by describing how they each started working on a story. Carol Lynch Williams said she usually uses an intense emotional experience (such as fear of family members dying in a plane crash) as a springboard for a story idea (such as a girl dealing with the death of family members in a plane crash). John Bennion talked about visualizing the relationships at the core of a story. He demonstrated a technique he said is used in theater where two actors hold opposite ends of a stick about a yard long while they move around to show the tension between them (they can't get too close or too far from each other). He also showed different arrangements of characters that might be in a story, such as a circle of men around a lone woman (he used this to represent the story of the woman taken in adultery) or a circle of women around a lone man (he wrote a story of a man whose adultery was found out, showing the townswomens' reaction to that). What different expectations and prejudices do these different configurations bring out? He recommended diagramming the relationships in the stories we write to help see where the tensions are. They then took turns reading passages from stories that showed strong characterization: _A Dance for Three_ by Louise Plummer _The True Colors of Caitlyn Jackson_ by Carol Lynch Williams "Midnight Raid," a short story in a book I didn't catch the title of, by Brady Udall (I think?) _The Burning Questions of Bingo Brown_ We were then asked to diagram the relationships in a story we were working on and to write some dialog between two of the characters (I'll spare you the gory details that follow in my written notes). A question was asked about whether the characters both had to be human. I missed the discussion that followed, but after the writing time was up John Bennion read a delightful passage he wrote just then in which a character sits his dogs in chairs and carries on conversations with people he knows using them as stand-ins. A question was asked about multiple-POV novels which was referred to Richard Hopkins and Shauna Nelson. Richard held up _Singled Out_ by Eric Samuelsen and said that it could be very effective and nice. Shauna said that it was very difficult to do well. ************* _LDS Fiction: What's the Next Phase?_ A panel discussion with Emily Watts (of Deseret Book/Bookcraft), Shauna Nelson (of Covenant), and Richard Hopkins (of Cornerstone) The introducer asked each of the panelists to give an opening statement describing what they saw as the future of LDS publishing and what type of fiction they would like to see. All responded that they saw a future of great growth for LDS fiction. Emily Watts (DB/BC) said she would love to see fiction that mirrors life and shows growth, such as _To Kill a Mockingbird_. She also talked about online fiction as a way of introducing new authors without having to incur a large overhead (at least I think that's what she said; my notes only say "online fiction" so I could be wrong here). Shauna Nelson (Covenant) described several current books from Covenant and summarized that she's looking for "real things [problems] that speak to real people." Richard Hopkins (Cornerstone) described several current books from Cornerstone and said he is looking for positive behavior by the main characters--more like the story of Joseph than stories of repentance. I didn't take notes on the questions from the audience but will recount what I remember. My apologies if I get things wrong. A question was asked regarding the size of niche markets within LDS literature, particularly the youth market. Emily Watts said that the 8-12 market was particularly difficult because children that age like to read what their friends are reading and that mostly that's not too objectionable (Harry Potter and Goosebumps were cited). The YA market is different and they eagerly seek YA novels. Shauna Nelson pointed to Covenants scriptural offerings for children, such as board books. Richard Hopkins waxed enthusiastic about the new LDS Girls series of books/paper dolls/website that is in the works at Cornerstone. A question was asked regarding the acceptability of multiple submissions (i.e., submitting the same manuscript to more than one publisher at the same time). All the editors agreed that courtesy required that an author notify them when a manuscript was also under consideration elsewhere. Emily Watts' reaction was shock that an author would want to do that to themselves, since she would need to evaluate that manuscript much more cursorily in order to make a quick decision. A question was asked regarding why there are no agents in the LDS publishing world. Richard Hopkins' response was, "You'd ask someone to live on ten percent of what *you* make?" Someone asked the panelists if they would differentiate their company from the others so make it easier to know which publisher would be most likely to accept his manuscript, or which he should submit to first. A great deal of time was spent refusing to answer this question, even after the introducer tried to offer the stereotypes of each publisher as a starting point. ******** Plenary Session with Dean Hughes Dean Hughes started by giving a little of his history and tracing his path to writing: He knew from his youth that he wanted to write and got a master's degree in Creative Writing. Then, thinking it would be more practical, he got a Ph.D. in Literature and taught for several years at BYU. After a while he decided that if he was going to write he would need to make a clean break, quit his job, and go for it. At that point, he says, he went from being an artist to being a businessman. He worried that his former colleagues looked down on him because he wrote "popular" fiction, but on the other hand he needed to live off his writing, now. He talked about how much he loves writing, the process, but how much he initially hates to sit down at the computer each day. He gave some advice: -Start with what you can do, rather than trying to write for a pre-determined audience. Find your natural audience. -Write the best you can within the parameters of the project. Example: He wrote several children's novels in a baseball series. There are guidelines for the series he needed to write within, such as to include lots of action rather than make it very character-based. But within those guidelines, write the best you can. -On the topic of how much orthodoxy should be in your writing, he said there is too much preaching going on in fiction. Readers should never lose track of or be bored away from the story; they should always wonder what happens next. If you write from your values they are there. Don't try to use fiction as a missionary tool -On why there aren't many LDS protagonists in the national market, he asked the question, "Do you look forward to reading the next Jehovah's Witness novel?" No, because you don't *trust* that it will be objective. Over the years he has repeatedly proposed books with LDS protagonists and been turned down, but he's now working on one that he feels was approved based on the trust he's built up over many years with this editor. -Find the stories you have to tell and tell them. ********** _Plot and Structure_ with Dean Hughes Dean Hughes basically ran this session as a question and answer time. On switching POV: Multiple POVs all you to have multiple main plots (e.g., his Children of the Promise series). The danger is that you can lose readers who aren't interested in the plot you're switching to. Also, be sure when switching, be sure to switch all the way to the new POV and not add it to the old one. He starts plotting a book by brainstorming a character; write for a while about who the character is until you know her or him. Once you know the character ask, "What could happen?" "Then what?" and so on. He uses clustering (diagramming with circles connected by lines to show connections) as he goes. Then he discards some stuff, puts it in order and writes out a basic plot outline. He started using outlines when a new editor asked for one as a project proposal and he found it helped him write the story more easily. Now he uses them all the time. He asked Anita Stansfield to comment on her process and she said she does a lot of character exploration, then just starts writing. She later clarified that as she goes and she finds the plot building up in her brain that she has a file on her computer that she does a "head dump" into so she can keep on with what she's writing and refer to it as needed. More from Dean Hughes: -Details are important. -Characters change through the course of the plot. -Understate emotion (let reader fill it in; it will be more powerful) but describe characters fully (physical description). -Do general research before the outline, specific stuff after or while writing (e.g., how much did sugar cost in 1943?) to fill in the blanks. Sometimes what works best for the plot actually ends up being right! -On resolution: Follow your instincts. -Sometimes you have to cut off excess paragraphs or pages at the end or the beginning. -Let someone else (spouse?) read it in the middle (3rd draft?) and also when it's almost finished (editor). -Reading a scene out loud can help you find out if it works. On getting published: Stay after it. You get better if you keep writing. Have a mentor. A Writing group helps. But it's all about practice; find the time to write. If you're going to be a writer you have to write. Tenacity is more important than talent. He said several times during the hour that he doesn't have much talent, he just works hard. ******************* _How to Publish the Next LDS Blockbuster_ with Rachel Ann Nunes and Anita Stansfield Anita Stansfield: Appeal to readers' emotions. _The Christmas Box_ was successful because it touched a strong, common emotion. She gets ideas from listening to common themes she hears what other women say. Deal with real issues. Look at what's selling in big numbers. Appeal to the readers' value system. Write on a level the average reader can enjoy (6th grade level?) so they don't have to work at the book No matter how good the story is, if it's not written well they won't get it; learn the rules. Rachel Nunes: Affirm testimonies at the end of the book. Heros and heroines need to be human, with frailties and weaknesses, but also heroic (a little bigger than life), such as pray a little more than most people or have a little more faith. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 07 Nov 2000 01:50:17 -0700 David Hansen wrote: > For example, if Ogden High had chosen to perform the musical "Hair" instead of > "Godspell" would it have made a difference? Would the parents who complain be > intolerant for not wanting their children to remove their clothes on stage as > part of their public school's musical? What if they perform a play glorifying > the crucifixion as a justified end to a bad man? Or claiming that Joseph Smith > deserved to die? It should still be a personal choice. And if enough students personally choose not to participate, then the work couldn't be put on, and that might be a good indication that it wasn't such a good idea in the first place. But as far as I can tell, the people who objected to Godspell didn't even bother to consider whether reasonable people held a different opinion from them--they assumed what they thought is what everybody should think. That's intolerable. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writers' Conference Date: 07 Nov 2000 19:19:55 -0500 Did anyone attend the poetry session? I would love to see notes on that. Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ruth A. " Subject: RE: Re: [AML] Introductions: Ruth Date: 07 Nov 2000 21:57:12 -0800 Thanks to all those who sent messages regarding Seagull books and tape in Oakland, CA! And thanks to Frank Maxwell who had suggestions for both SF and LA. --Ruth - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Re: AML Writer's Conference Date: 08 Nov 2000 01:09:09 -0700 Darlene Young wrote: > It's so easy to say, "You were offended because you > made no attempt to understand." But how do you know > that they made no attempt? Because of an exchange of messages that follows where I try to explain my reasons for what I said, and they don't seem to be listening. If they seem to hear and understand, but still disagree, that's fine with me. But if I get the sense I'm talking to a brick wall, I start believing the brick wall is the problem, not my communication skills. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Subject: [AML] Re: Introduction: Ruth Date: 08 Nov 2000 08:17:08 -0800 (PST) Well, I'm glad, but as I said, I'm not quite sure what it means. I was very interested to read Deborah Wagner's report from the AML conference, esp. Dean Hughes remarks. If I learned anything from my efforts to publish fiction on a Mormon topic, it's that the NY publishing establishment while largely secular and uninterested in fiction aimed solely to promote faith among the flock, is not simply inward-looking and concerned with writing that reflects its own urbane circumstances. It is also most curious about other authentic American experiences, and this surely includes the Mormon experience (which could also be urbane if the writer chose so). Does this mean one's fiction has to offer a kind of anthropology of the Mormon experience? IMHO I would think so, but it doesn't have to be cold and thoroughly distant, it can be loving and faith-based, so long as it "rings true" (a phrase I heard a lot from agents and editors) in its assessment. This business of "ringing true," whatever it means in its respective contexts, is certainly open to debate. --Ruth On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, eedh wrote: > "the idea of a Mormon protagonist faced with challenges both within > himself and the > outside world is a great one. What a fascinating culture! " > > > > Ruth! > WOW!! I don't know if you realize how many of us are sitting and > staring at our screens, our hearts beating wildly. (At least I am.) > We're fascinating! They want us! This has got to be one of the great > inspirational posts on AML-list. Thank you! The race to the keyboards > is on! > > -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Kramer Subject: [AML] Topics for Satire (was: AML Writer's Conference) Date: 08 Nov 2000 12:31:24 -0700 >Eric Snider wrote: >> In other words, if people have been offended by my columns, they should >see what I DON'T put it! > I wonder if Eric would be so kind as to offer a list of things that a sophisticated ironist, or even facile mocker, would consider serious or sacred enough not to mock? Neal Kramer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] "Mormon" in WILSON, _A Massive Swelling_ Date: 07 Nov 2000 17:25:43 -0700 Hey, ya'll. Wanna read a good rant? Here's one I don't actually recommend, though I enjoyed it very much. I just finished a new book called: A Massive Swelling: Celebrity Re-Examine d As a Grotesque, Crippling Disease and Other Cultural Revelations by Cintra Wilson. It is a diatribe, a rant, a jeremiad, a vitriolic all-out assault on all contemporary popular culture. It's also brilliantly written and very funny, and so relentlessly ad hominem I don't recommend it at all. She's not at all moderate, she's extremely judgmental, and as hip and funny and liberal and f-bomb-droppingly post-modern as Cintra (I feel like we're on a first-name basis, so immediate is her prose) is, she's also, I was astonished to finally suss, in the old-time anti-theatric alist, Plato-to-Northbrooke-to-Collier-to-Medved tradition. We're drowning in Hollywood filth. We're all being numbed by an obsessive quest for celebrity. Celebrities themselves are uniformly self-obsessed, and worse, untalented moral midgets. In a desperate quest for Celeb status, women are turning into self-loathing masochists, fawningly agreeing to their own objectification, even agreeing to invasive surgical techniques in an effort to facilitate objectification. And men are all becoming drug-glazed-over porn addicts. All pop culture, with only the rarest of burned out exceptions, is corporatized and commodified and immoral and obvious and vile. Yadayadayada. It's just enough true to not be completely dismissable. I hold no brief for Celine Dion, but I do think calling her 'the world's most repulsive female,' as Cintra does, is a trifle, uh, harsh. At the same time, I do think that an absurd quest for celebrity has unbalanced too many young people, filling their heads with unhealthy dreams and unholy ambitions. I think the quest for celebrity has destroyed lives; I've even seen it among my students. Fair enough. Given my well-known objections to morally (which becomes too easily judgmentally) based criticism, I'm very troubled by Cintra's book. But it's an entertaining read, and of course, not necessarily uniformly untrue. Here's what's really interesting, however. Amidst this entire rant, I found the consistent use of the word 'Mormon' as an adjective. 'Mormon' is used to imply a certain aesthetic stance which Cintra particularly loathes. 'Mormon' artists, in Cintra's context, has nothing to do with artists who happen to be Mormon. David Copperfield, Barry Manilow, Karen Carpenter and Celine Dion are all referred to as objectionably 'Mormon.' No, 'Mormon' means white bread, safe, namby-pamby, middle-brow, beige. 'Mormon' means pop songs about troo luv. 'Mormon' means sit coms chock full of Family Values. 'Mormon' means mind-numbing, dull, conformist art. 'Mormon' may not mean Baywatch, but it does mean Touched by An Angel, both of which are equally corrupt and false and inherently pornographic. (Pornography, in Cintra's sense of it, means work which causes us to wallow in untrue and unhealthy emotions, whether violent, sexual or sentimental.) Okay, like her or not (and I like her very much, while holding her ideas at arm's length), Cintra is, at the very least, a bright and perceptive observer of the contemporary scene. She's anything but dumb, and she knows a lot about a lot. And that's her perception of us. That's 'Mormon' art, as far as she'd concerned. How far off is she? Not too far off, is my dismayed and distressed response. I mean, this issue surely something we've raised a time or two on the List. We're not a very edgy culture. And we don't much support our edgier artists. Look, I'm not going to get into the whole 'why does edgy mean good; isn't there room for both kinds of art' thing. I agree that life has dark and lighter shadings, and that art can and must reflect both. I have my likes and dislikes. I prefer the Who to Barry Manilow. I also don't judge those who have milder tastes. But can I tremulously suggest that there does not, in fact, exist a single 'Mormon' aesthetic, and that work that is in fact dark and edgy and cruel can actually reflect, in the deepest and most spiritual ways, the values of Mormonism? And that among the many many things Cintra Wilson gets wrong (and amidst the other things she surely gets right) is her use of 'Mormon' to reflect a certain aesthetic found, to be sure, in Mormon culture, but other places as well? Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] "Mormon" in WILSON, _A Massive Swelling_ Date: 08 Nov 2000 14:08:54 -0500 uhhm I hate to appear ignorant, but who is Cintra Wilson? And does a dictionary or at least a vocabulary cheat sheet come with this rant? Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hansen Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 08 Nov 2000 12:24:54 -0700 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > David Hansen wrote: > > > For example, if Ogden High had chosen to perform the musical "Hair" instead of > > "Godspell" would it have made a difference? Would the parents who complain be > > intolerant for not wanting their children to remove their clothes on stage as > > part of their public school's musical? What if they perform a play glorifying > > the crucifixion as a justified end to a bad man? Or claiming that Joseph Smith > > deserved to die? > > It should still be a personal choice. And if enough students personally > choose not to participate, then the work couldn't be put on, and that > might be a good indication that it wasn't such a good idea in the first > place. But as far as I can tell, the people who objected to Godspell > didn't even bother to consider whether reasonable people held a > different opinion from them--they assumed what they thought is what > everybody should think. That's intolerable. I can't believe that you really mean this. I think that you are trying to say that LDS people should be more tolerant of other viewpoints that may differ from our own. However, as a parent who is concerned about my children's education, including their moral education, I can't buy your statement that I must first consider whether someone else might have a different opinion before expressing my own. Let me use another example. Suppose a school fails to restrict elementary school access to pornography on the internet. The school was aware that in your child's classroom, the computer often accessed pornography sites, but did nothing to stop it. A "reasonable" opinion could be held by the principal that children have as much right to free speech as anyone else on the internet, and should therefore be allowed to view any internet sites regardless of their content. Because someone is "reasonable" (whatever "reasonable" is) on the other side, am I required to keep quiet? Because its a moral issue for me, am I required to stand aside as if being "non-moral" somehow made the opinion more legitimate? My point is that there ARE moral absolutes, and that where the line is drawn on those absolutes depends on the individual/culture. If you want to question where the Ogden High parents drew the line on their moral absolutes then we agree that performing in Godspell does not violate some inappropriate moral boundary. But, if you really believe that it is "intolerable" for these parents to object to something they find morally objectionable, then I'll have to disagree. Dave Hansen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writers' Conference Date: 08 Nov 2000 13:47:46 -0700 on 11/7/00 10:28 AM, Deborah Wager at dwager@vii.com wrote: > Shauna Nelson (Covenant) described several current books from Covenant > and summarized that she's looking for "real things [problems] that speak > to real people." Maybe it's the election jargon clogging my brain, but if I hear about one more plan or book or anything that "speaks to real people" I might hurt myself. Is there any other kind of person? S. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: [AML] Re: Introduction: Ruth Date: 08 Nov 2000 21:55:38 GMT Was it you, Ruth, who felt that _Dancing Naked_ was problematic in some ways? Did it "ring true" for you? Cathy Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 E. 600 N. Price UT 84501 (from a computer out in Emery County, where I'm teaching an adult education class, right now assisting a student to edit his paper on longwall coal mining, which, if you have yet to learn about it, is mind-boggling) This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire (was: AML Writer's Conference) Date: 08 Nov 2000 19:07:51 GMT > >Eric Snider wrote: > >> In other words, if people have been offended by my columns, they should > >see what I DON'T put it! > > > >I wonder if Eric would be so kind as to offer a list of things that a >sophisticated ironist, or even facile mocker, would consider serious or >sacred enough not to mock? > >Neal Kramer > Well, the temple ceremony, for one. I also wouldn't make fun of any general authorities in the critical sense, though I might crack a good-natured joke about Elder Maxwell using big words, or President Monson's fondness for stories involving widows. (With the GAs, my general attitude is that if it's a joke I can imagine them laughing at, even at their own expense, it's OK.) Jokes that criticize them or their policies might be OK for me and my friends, but I probably wouldn't write them in a column. I'm too conservative when it comes to church stuff to even want to SOUND like I'm doubting the leaders of the church. I'd avoid jokes about deity, too, because those guys are stronger than me. Like I said during the five or six seconds I got to talk at the conference last week, just mentioning something in a humorous context is not the same thing as making fun of it, though. I might mention any or all of these things in passing in a humor column, though the actual jokes would be at the expense of something else. (A joke about people who fall asleep while Elder Maxwell speaks is making fun of the people falling asleep, not of Elder Maxwell.) Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writers' Conference Date: 08 Nov 2000 21:59:32 -0500 Steve wrote: > Maybe it's the election jargon clogging my brain, but if I hear about one > more plan or book or anything that "speaks to real people" I might hurt > myself. > > Is there any other kind of person? Politicians. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writer's Conference Date: 08 Nov 2000 23:37:03 -0700 Marilyn Brown wrote: > I wish he would give us a list of those young people who did so much to help. I met Gordon Laws. He stuck to his post and did so well! Who were the others I didn't get to meet? Thanks to all! I'm afraid to give a list, because I know I'll leave someone out. There were volunteers popping out everywhere, and some I just referred to another volunteer who was in charge of something. I don't have any authoritative list of who volunteered. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writers' Conference Date: 09 Nov 2000 00:38:27 -0700 Steve wrote: > Maybe it's the election jargon clogging my brain, but if I hear about one > more plan or book or anything that "speaks to real people" I might hurt > myself. > > Is there any other kind of person? No, but some books seem to act as if there are other kinds. You know, the kind of people who hold family home evening without fail every Monday night, do their home and visiting teaching the first week of every month, attend the temple every month (preferably at 6:00 am), have family prayer consistently twice a day and read scriptures daily with the whole family there, and always fast the full 24 hours every fast Sunday without one person getting a headache. All their kids get straight A's and scholarships to BYU, go on missions (preferably foreign), get married in the temple, don't kiss until they are kneeling at the altar, always dress modestly, never ask to date before age 16, never want to see R-rated movies, and are never even the slightest bit curious about smoking or alcohol or pornography or sex. Their bishops and stake presidents always give them the correct advice. They always learn to love the brats in their Sunday school class. They always say the right thing to turn the person sitting next to them in the airplane into a golden contact. These are the kind of people who never have any problems more serious than having to smooth over an unintentional social gaffe with the relief society president, or forcing themselves to visit a nursing home for a service project (and of course, coming to love the experience), or praying whether the girl they love should really be their eternal companion. These people never have problems like a daughter who has completely succumbed to the slavery of meth addiction (a member of my elder's quorum presidency), or whose son committed suicide (a family in my ward growing up), or who realizes he made a monumental blunder in choosing his spouse because the climate at BYU pressured him into marrying someone (more than one person I know), or who came home from his mission only to discover that his parents were on the verge of divorce and he never had a clue (me). Until recently, how much LDS literature spoke to these people? I think LDS literature speaking to "real people" is a legitimate goal to pursue. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writers' Conference Date: 09 Nov 2000 07:30:12 -0700 > > Shauna Nelson (Covenant) described several current books from > > Covenant and summarized that she's looking for "real things > > [problems] that speak to real people." Steve Perry: > Maybe it's the election jargon clogging my brain, but if I hear > about one more plan or book or anything that "speaks to real > people" I might hurt myself. > > Is there any other kind of person? In contemporary Mormon fiction? Plenty. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire Date: 09 Nov 2000 15:04:46 -0200 > We have to be open-minded about the standard behavior at church... They say to us we should wear ties, long skirts,... We musn=B4t laugh at church, conferences...etc Let=B4s use our logic brain to consider these aspects: - Christ didn=B4t use ties...Christ laughed (I=B4m sure) Christ taught us to love our brothers and sisters all over the world and love other cultures and countries... This is the standard behavior Christ expects from us... The other things are Church=B4s standard behavior...And these behavior we should discuss when they don=B4t look like a logic thing for us... I love this church...but it has to change a lot to conquest the world... Renato renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writers' Conference Date: 09 Nov 2000 10:06:46 -0700 >>> Shauna Nelson (Covenant) described several current books from >>> Covenant and summarized that she's looking for "real things >>> [problems] that speak to real people." > Steve Perry: >> Maybe it's the election jargon clogging my brain, but if I hear >> about one more plan or book or anything that "speaks to real >> people" I might hurt myself. >> >> Is there any other kind of person? > Scott Bronson: >In contemporary Mormon fiction? Plenty. Oh, we're talking characters. I thought they meant the readers. ;-) Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] "Mormon" in WILSON, _A Massive Swelling_ Date: 09 Nov 2000 10:04:23 -0700 rant? Cintra Wilson is . . . well, she's the woman who wrote this book. She's a columnist for Salon Magazine, and for, I gather, a San Francisco newspaper (The Examiner?). She's a very fine playwright--I've seen two of her plays, and they're very funny, in a scorched earth kind of way. And no, no cheat sheets. You're either as immersed in pop culture as she is, or you're not, if not, you won't get a lot of her allusions. She's a very funny, very savage kind of satirical writer. I admire her work immensely, while disagreeing with a lot of it, as my post suggests. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writers' Conference Date: 09 Nov 2000 10:10:37 -0700 on 11/9/00 12:38 AM, D. Michael Martindale at dmichael@wwno.com wrote: > These people never have problems like a daughter who has > completely succumbed to the slavery of meth addiction (a member of my > elder's quorum presidency), or whose son committed suicide (a family in > my ward growing up), or who realizes he made a monumental blunder in > choosing his spouse because the climate at BYU pressured him into > marrying someone (more than one person I know), or who came home from > his mission only to discover that his parents were on the verge of > divorce and he never had a clue (me). Until recently, how much LDS > literature spoke to these people? > > I think LDS literature speaking to "real people" is a legitimate goal to > pursue. Again, I agree with the need for real characters--some of every ilk of realness. But I am referring to the second half of the "real characters that speak to real people" cliche. Even the people who hide their pain are real. Even the people who have very little pain are real. As are those who suffer immensely. Steve _ _ _ _ _ skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writers' Conference Date: 09 Nov 2000 15:16:42 -0200 > Real books about real things are the real essence of writing....The real objective of a book should be to make people to look at yourselves and discover hiden things about them... These dicovery experiences will make people growing up.... There are some fiction books that are able to show the truth in the same way that the not-fiction ones do...but there are others that shows nothing...says nothing This is the difference between good and bad fiction books... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] "Mormon" in WILSON, _A Massive Swelling_ Date: 09 Nov 2000 15:18:42 -0200 > Oh Debbie I thought I was the only one who didn=B4t know Cintra Wilson... Renato renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: [AML] Topics for SatireDate: 09 Nov 2000 09:48:20 -0800 (PST) Neal Kramer observed: <> I'm not sure what I am, but I've got a list of things I consider untouchable. It's from my "10 Commandments of Mormon Humor," excerpted below: < Subject: [AML] Re: Real Life (was: AML Writers' Conference) Date: 09 Nov 2000 12:41:41 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 12:38 AM D. Michael wrote: > [S]ome books seem to act as if there are other kinds. You know, > the kind of people who hold family home evening without fail every > Monday night, do their home and visiting teaching the first week of > every month, attend the temple every month (preferably at 6:00 am), have > family prayer consistently twice a day and read scriptures daily with > the whole family there, and always fast the full 24 hours every fast > Sunday without one person getting a headache. All their kids get > straight A's and scholarships to BYU, go on missions (preferably > foreign), get married in the temple, don't kiss until they are kneeling > at the altar, always dress modestly, never ask to date before age 16, > never want to see R-rated movies, and are never even the slightest bit > curious about smoking or alcohol or pornography or sex. Their bishops > and stake presidents always give them the correct advice. They always > learn to love the brats in their Sunday school class. They always say > the right thing to turn the person sitting next to them in the airplane > into a golden contact. > > These are the kind of people who never have any problems more serious > than having to smooth over an unintentional social gaffe with the relief > society president, or forcing themselves to visit a nursing home for a > service project (and of course, coming to love the experience), or > praying whether the girl they love should really be their eternal > companion. > I think LDS literature speaking to "real people" is a legitimate goal to > pursue. The heck of it is there ARE people like that in the Church, and the worst of it is some of them don't even judge other people (like me) who don't do all the right things! I hate those kind the most. :-) Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal William Kramer Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire (was: AML Writer's Conference) Date: 09 Nov 2000 13:38:00 -0700 (MST) Thanks to Eric for a reasonable response. Neal Kramer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] New BYU Studies Web Site Date: 09 Nov 2000 14:03:53 -0700 Visit the new BYU Studies web site at http://byustudies.byu.edu/ The web site now allows for ordering both available journal back issues and article reprints. You can also download electronic copies of articles, easily categorized by author, title, and topic. Books and subscriptions to BYU Studies are also available for order. To become an even more convenient resource, the site will soon have a search function. The site also provides submission guidelines, information on essay and poetry contests, and an index of titles, authors, an topics from volumes 1 through 36 to be updated within a couple of months. The site features a different discounted book and article each month. Currently the featured book is "The Book of Mormon Paintings of Minerva Teichert" and the featured article is "The Good Samaritan: A Type and Shadow of the Plan of Salvation." Soon the site will feature two other of BYU Studies's finest. Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 09 Nov 2000 13:39:07 -0700 The interview with Robert Van Wagner in the latest Irreantum struck a nerve with me for a few reasons, and reminded me of some recent discussion on the list. For one thing, I did not know that _Dancing Naked_ (which I have not read) was written with a national audience in mind, not a Mormon audience. Now, considering what its audience is, and the content (the portrayal of negative authority and homophobia regarding Mormons), I can't help but wonder that no one has a problem with it. A few months ago, I recall a lively debate over whether the play _Bash_ (was that the title?) should have been written with the national audience in mind when it portayed Mormons so badly (homophobia, the same issue). That if it was written for us, as a wakeup call, that would be one thing, but to portray us to the masses, a group that may stereotype us, was something else entirely. But no one has said a word about that regarding _Dancing Naked_. Is that because we all assumed it was written for us? Well, it wasn't. Does that change how we view it? Secondly, I felt thrown back to the Where is our Amy Tan? discussion reading Van Wagner's opinion about our national literary future. He insists that he is a better writer for having abandoned his faith (basically seeing both sides of the fence). Also, that when a Mormon writer reaches the high acclaim, it will be because they have faced what he called the "human experience" rather than the "Mormon experience." He also described the kinds of issues that writer might discuss: abortion as salvation, etc. That that writer will have to write about "dangerous" things (I can only imagine he means things that might compromise the writer's standing in the Church). I have a serious bone to pick with that. As a Mormon, I believe that if you take away the culture of being Mormon out of the equation, what you are left with is truth, or the essence of the human experience. But to do as Van Wagner suggests, we as Mormon writers would have to abandon our faith as so much "experience" and move on. Is that what it will take to have our own O'Conner? If so, I don't think it's worth aspiring to. Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Wondrous Talent, Wondrous Debut, Wondrous Love: Deseret Date: 09 Nov 2000 20:49:06 EST Press Release 7Nov00 A2 [From Mormon-News] Wondrous Talent, Wondrous Debut, Wondrous Love SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- "George Dyer is perhaps the music world's best-kept secret," asserts noted composer Les de Azevedo. That's about to change with the release of Dyer's debut solo album Wondrous Love (Shadow Mountain, $13.99 limited-time introductory priced CD, $13.98 cassette), proof positive of the passion and vocalism that has propelled Dyer into the ranks of our nation's finest tenors. "Wondrous Love" features 12 classic and original sacred melodies and hymns that will appeal and inspire all listeners. In addition to Dyer's remarkable talent, the songs on the album, which include "All Creatures of Our God and King," "Lead Kindly Light," and "I Walked Today Where Jesus Walked" were also treated to fresh new arrangements from award-winning composers Kurt Bestor and Merrill Jenson, among others. "Very seldom have I been as moved by a singer as I was when George made the notes [of my arrangements] come alive," says Bestor, who arranged three songs on the album. Fans will have ample opportunity to hear Dyer perform live within the coming months. The 2000 - 2001 season finds him onstage with the Ohio Opera in Columbus, with Tennessee's Chattanooga Opera, and in Jerusalem performing the role of Jesus Christ in the world premiere of Lex de Azevedo's HOSANNA. This December, Dyer will reprise his role as the Angel Gabriel in both California and Utah performances of Azevedo's Gloria. Gloria will also be broadcast by Detroit Public Television on November 28th, in the video recording that features George as Gabriel. George Dyer has been a national finalist in the San Francisco Opera's Merola Program, a district finalist in the Metropolitan Opera auditions, and has performed with the New York City Opera on several occaisons. A native of Virginia, Dyer presently resides in Utah with his wife and children. ### >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Real People Date: 09 Nov 2000 22:28:59 EST D. Michael Martindale: Steve wrote: > Maybe it's the election jargon clogging my brain, but > if I hear about one more plan or book or anything that > "speaks to real people" I might hurt myself. > > Is there any other kind of person? No, but some books seem to act as if there are other kinds. You know, the kind of people who hold family home evening without fail every Monday night, do their home and visiting teaching the first week of every month, attend the temple every month (preferably at 6:00 am), ... _______________ These would belong in the fiction department, wouldn't they? :-> I think it would be fun to run into a character who did only one of these things really well, and then was wickedly down to earth in most other ways. Built in conflict. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] Topics for Satire (was: AML Writer's Conference) Date: 09 Nov 2000 21:33:12 -0700 Temple humor? Got one! A bunch of us are sitting in the sealer's office in the Jordan Temple waiting to sign papers as witnesses and Paul Dunn (pre-meteoric-plunge, there to perform a sealing) comes in. Everybody in the room stands respectfully. He shakes a couple of hands, then notices a pair of (at least) size 16 wing tips under the sealer's table. "McConkie's here!" he yells. "Got some sticky notes??" The flustered sealer digs some out. "Got a pen??" "Bruce: this is your left shoe." "Bruce: this is your right shoe." -- Scott Tarbet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Work of LDS Composer Boren and Librettist Nelson on Temple Date: 09 Nov 2000 22:28:59 EST Square: Glen Nelson 6Nov00 A2 [From Mormon-News] Work of LDS Composer Boren and Librettist Nelson on Temple Square SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- On Saturday, November 11 at 7:30, the Temple Square Assembly Hall will feature new orchestral/vocal works by Murray Boren and Glen Nelson as part of its recital series of LDS music and musicians. Composer-in-residence at Brigham Young University, Murray Boren, has composed an evening of new religious music to texts by New York author Glen Nelson, to be performed by soprano Susan Boren. Boren's music has been played and recorded internationally. Most recently, his Symphony No. 2 was premiered at the Moscow Conservatory in Russia. For the Assembly Hall concert (the same program will be played at BYU on November 7) Boren and Nelson have created three specifically-LDS concert works. The main work is a symphony-length composition called ’"Seven Sisters" about modern LDS women. In another large work, "After Words," Nelson quotes three biblical stories and then imagines what happens after the scriptural story ends. All of the works on the program are written for soprano and symphony orchestra, conducted by Boren. Nelson says, "If you think about it, there's almost no serious concert music that is specifically LDS. I've heard a lot of sacred music that is sacrament meeting-friendly, and some wonderful music written for our most accomplished choirs, but if you're looking for the kind of music that aspires to be great in the sense of Mozart-great or Stravinsky great, outside of choral music, the pool isn't very deep, yet." >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 10 Nov 2000 00:41:21 -0700 [MOD: I'd like to add that anyone who didn't attend the conference but might be interested in attending future ones should perhaps provide input also to let us know what would make you more or less interested in attending.] To those who attended the writers conference, thank you. We'd like to know what you thought of it so we can put on a better one next time. If you would respond to the following 15 questions, it would be very helpful: 1. Was the conference worth attending? Why? 2. What would you change to make it more valuable to you? 3. Was the admittance fee fair, or do you think it should be different? 4. Do you prefer having a catered lunch, or would you rather fend for yourself? Was the lunch priced fairly? 5. Which sessions were most valuable to you? 6. How could any sessions you attended have been improved? 7. What are your feelings about using UVSC as the location? Were the facilities acceptable? Where would you prefer the conference be held? 8. Do you like the time of year the conference is held (November), or would you prefer another? 9. Was the length of the conference about right, or would you prefer a longer conference (evening sessions, more than one day)? 10. How did you like the guests of honor: Margaret Young, Darius Gray, Dean Hughes? 11. Did you attend any of the performance sessions (BYU student films, "I Am Jane" performance, literature readings)? Did you enjoy them? Would you like to see other types of performance sessions? 12. If you were to design the schedule for next year, what are some sessions you would want to include? 13. What guests would you like to see? 14. What made you decide to attend the conference this year? 15. Any other comments? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 09 Nov 2000 00:06:05 -0700 [MOD: I'm letting this one through, but I'd like to encourage everyone to move past the what-I-meant/what-you-meant part of the exchange to consider the broader questions: e.g., what types of works are appropriate for school performances, and how parents' concerns ought to be addressed in circumstances like this.] David Hansen wrote: > "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > But as far as I can tell, the people who objected to Godspell > > didn't even bother to consider whether reasonable people held a > > different opinion from them--they assumed what they thought is what > > everybody should think. That's intolerable. > > I can't believe that you really mean this. Oh yes, I did mean it. But I don't think you understood what I meant... > Because someone is > "reasonable" (whatever "reasonable" is) on the other side, am I required to keep > quiet? Who said anything about keeping quiet? It seems to me that the parents who objected to Godspell and insisted it not be performed are the ones trying to keep others quiet--not me. Let those parents express their concern. But let them hear mine as well. I don't get the sense they bothered listening back, or even bothered to find out if there were other opinions to listen to. > My point is that there ARE moral absolutes Yes, there are absolutes. "Godspell is offensive" is not one of them. Yet from the information available in the news reports (an important qualifier), I get the sense that the student who uttered "Godspell is offensive" _does_ consider that an obvious absolute. > But, if you really > believe that it is "intolerable" for these parents to object to something they find > morally objectionable, then I'll have to disagree. I didn't say that. The intolerable behavior is that these parents didn't seem to even consider that others might think differently from them and have as much right to influence the issue as they do. In my opinion, you're accusing me of wanting to do what they actually did. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Essay Location Query Date: 10 Nov 2000 10:50:40 -0600 Folks, I received a question about where an essay I mentioned in an earlier post, "What the Church Means to People Like Me"--I believe by Richard Poll, but my memory may be deceiving me again--can be located. I know it was published originally in _Dialogue_ years ago, but I can't find a reference. I also believe I've seen a link to it on the Internet, but I can't find that now, either. Can anyone help with either of these sources--and confirm or revise my author attribution? Jonathan Langford Asking questions for myself, not the List... jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Subject: [AML] VAN WAGONER, _Dancing Naked_ (was: Introduction: Ruth ) Date: 09 Nov 2000 21:24:03 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 cgileadi@emerytelcom.net wrote: > Was it you, Ruth, who felt that _Dancing Naked_ was problematic in some ways? > Did it "ring true" for you? > > Cathy > I found _Dancing Naked_ interesting and very moving in parts. My problem with it is aesthetic: Van Wagoner crowds his reader. If his protagonist is encountering some formative moment that makes him feel insignificant (for example, the scene where the father steps out naked into the hallway and the young Terry sees him), the writing has to say "Terry felt insignificant." This is unfortunate, because the writing in this passage and elsewhere is otherwise often good. It's as though Van Wagoner is so bent on making his point that he refuses to risk any subtlety. The novel's use of Freud also struck me at points as somewhat heavy-handed. Perhaps more interesting to me was how these thematics suggest the novel's own struggle with Mormon culture, as though the later were an overpowering father. This is what "rings true" to me. Public reception of the novel also "rings true" to me, i.e. gives insight into Mormon culture, in some cases, more so than the novel itself. --Ruth - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Essay Location Query Date: 10 Nov 2000 11:51:58 -0700 >>> jlangfor@pressenter.com 11/10/00 09:50AM >>> > >I received a question about where an essay I mentioned in an earlier post, >"What the Church Means to People Like Me"--I believe by Richard Poll, but >my memory may be deceiving me again--can be located. I know it was >published originally in _Dialogue_ years ago, but I can't find a reference. >I also believe I've seen a link to it on the Internet, but I can't find >that now, either. Can anyone help with either of these sources--and confirm >or revise my author attribution? Yes, it was by Richard Poll. The talk is on the web at: http://home.att.net/~jredelfs/people.html It was originally published in the Winter '67 issue of Dialogue, and republishedin Sunstone July-August 1980. MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People Date: 10 Nov 2000 12:10:41 -0500 I don't have time to write my autobiography right now!!!!!!!! Debbie Brown > I think it would be fun to run into a character who did only > one of these things really well, and then was wickedly > down to earth in most other ways. Built in conflict. > > Larry Jackson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Movie about Philo T. Farnsworth Date: 10 Nov 2000 10:21:29 -0700 I noticed an item in the Nov. 1 _Daily Variety_ that Miramax has optioned two forthcoming books on the Mormon inventor of television, Philo T. Farnsworth. Yo, Eric Samuelsen, maybe you ought to send in your play _Love Affair with Electrons_ and see if they want to option that too, if you haven't already. If you don't have easy access to DV, I can fax you the article with all the agent and veep names, etc. Also, did y'all see the item about _Let the Games Begin_, the TV movie about the Salt Lake Olympic scandal to be aired just before the games begin? It's sure to have some Mormon references. [Chris Bigelow] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 10 Nov 2000 09:31:15 -0800 There is an interesting irony to this whole discussion. It revolves around what it means to "promote religion." The defense of Godspell has mostly been that it isn't negative toward Christianity, but really should be considered faith promoting and therefore okay to perform. Constitutionally, the fact that it is faith promoting is exactly the problem. I doubt anyone watching Fiddler on the Roof would come away with a strong desire to convert to Judaism. But I think you could reasonably construe Godspell to be intentionally promoting Christianity (although you could argue about its effectiveness). I don't find the musical offensive, but I question whether it is appropriate material for an officially-sponsored school production. I like the compromise solution--to let the kids perform the musical in a non-school-sanctioned way. I also have to say that while I despise censorship, I celebrate when citizens speak their views. Right or wrong, the parents who objected to Godspell had every right to express their opinion and try to influence school policy. As long as they are not attempting to use legal means to restrict free speech, I don't see a problem. Anyone who wanted to see Godspell performed could simply take matters into their own hands and put on a private production. -- Rob Pannoni Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 10 Nov 2000 10:42:25 -0700 I've read Dancing Naked, I've met Robert Van Wagoner, and I've now read Irreantum's review. My response: It's an awfully good novel. I don't know, and don't care, who he thinks the audience is, LDS or not. I'm LDS and I read it and I think it's darn good. I cared about the characters, I wanted to know what happened to them. I think he got the details of their lives, as LDS people, right. He says he's a better writer for having abandoned his faith. I doubt it. But he does make a valuable point. I don't know if this is true for everyone, but for me, I could not progress as a writer until I abandoned the culture, and that process was very difficult. I was raised a pretty conventional Mormon, and in many many ways, my upbringing was valuable and good. I'm handicapped, as a writer, by not having a hideous childhood or horrifically dysfunctional family to draw from; and of course, I'm glad for it. But there are so many attitudes and misperceptions of the world in Mormonism, in the culture, that I had to set aside in order for me to write well. I don't want to inappropriately disparage books by General Authorities, but there were books that I thought defined Mormon theology, that I had to consciously examine critically, and which I have now decided to abandon. I'm not sure I can say this more clearly without transgressing the AML-list guidelines. Maybe I can say this much: there was once a time when I believed that we lived in the wickedest time in the history of the world, that this current generation was particularly sent to the earth today to combat rampant evil, that the entertainment industry was the locus of that evil, and that we were far better off if we avoided, as much as we could, pop culture. And today, I no longer believe any of those things. I don't think the world is wickeder today than ever before. I think a lot of current pop culture is pretty valuable. And so on. Abandoning certain beliefs and ideas wasn't easy for me, or, I suspect, for most of us. It was painful to realize that books I once cherished were now, essentially, purveying what I have come to regard as false or misleading doctrines. But my writing was stifled. I couldn't honestly see the world, or create characters that weren't stilted and fundamentally dishonest. I was seeing the world with blinders, I think, and that hurts good writing. This may not be, probably isn't, true for all of us. But for me, it is true; I had to abandon much of LDS culture in order to improve as a writer. And yet, I still consider myself an active, temple recommend holding member of the Church. My spiritual home is in Mormonism, and always will be. And I still plan to drink diet Coke, play Hearts with face cards, watch R-rated movies, listen to the hardest rock and roll my aging ear drums can withstand, defend violence, profanity and sexuality in movies, and believe that God created life on this planet through a process of evolution, over a period of billions of years. And repent from my sins in fear and trembling before the Lord. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hansen Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 10 Nov 2000 10:48:54 -0700 Annette Lyon wrote: > As a Mormon, I believe that if you take away the culture of being Mormon out > of the equation, what you are left with is truth, or the essence of the human > experience. But to do as Van Wagner suggests, we as Mormon writers would have > to abandon our faith as so much "experience" and move on. Is that what it will > take to have our own O'Conner? If so, I don't think it's worth aspiring to. I completely agree. I attempted to explain this a couple of weeks ago in the culture thread, but you did a much better job of it than my poor effort. Thank you. Dave Hansen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 10 Nov 2000 11:18:16 -0700 The Deseret Book Christmas mailing is as good as anything for assessing the current state of commercial Mormon literature and publishing. I just got mine yesterday. I was glad to see that in the main catalog, they lead with a novel: the new Gerald Lund New Testament novel, _Fishers of Men_. A few pages deep, Margaret Young and Darius Gray's black pioneer novel leads a 6-pg. fiction section. The fiction looks like all historical and romance, with the only exceptions a murder mystery and a grownup novel by Chris Heimerdinger that is "the tale of one man's journey of self-discovery on a brutal, icebound landscape." For some reason, Deseret includes two World War Two novels by Lorie H. Nicholes (published by Granite) under "biography/inspiration" instead of fiction. The catalog is peppered with nauseating Christmas Box ripoffs. They offer the following holiday book shopping tip: "Shadow Mountain books are perfect gifts for your non-LDS friends and relatives because, although they are for the most part written by LDS authors, they are directed to a general audience. For example, Gerald Lund's new series, _The Kingdom and the Crown_, does not have any LDS-specific doctrine and will be enjoyed by members and friends of the Church alike." In the catalog where other companies advertise, the cover shows one of the worst kitsch items I've ever seen in Mormondumb: Heavenly Reminder Bears, including a category called Ordinance Bears (Duncan the baptism bear comes with a tag you can fill in with your name and baptismal date). I also noticed that the _Chicken Soup_ publisher bought a page--I wonder how often non-LDS companies buy into Deseret's promos. Cedar Fort advertises three Lee Nelson novels, no other fiction. Cornerston e's only advertised grownup novel is Linda Adams's _Prodigal Journey_, and other fiction includes list member Sharlee Glenn's picturebook _One in a Billion and Carol Lynch Williams's pioneer story in the Latter-day Girl series, _The Golden Trail_. Covenant's marketing of the latest Anita Stansfield novel includes a nauseating phrase that even uses the dreaded "A" word: "with an appropriate balance of faith and romance." All in all, it looks to me like another big helping of Mormon-American processed cheese. I don't know about you, but this ain't my culture. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 10 Nov 2000 11:47:34 -0700 Responding to Annette Lyon: <<>> He individually probably is a better writer for having abandoned his faith, but that doesn't mean the breakthrough national Mormon writers will have to abandon theirs--in fact, I would argue the opposite. Someone without faith can never portray the full Mormon experience, because it includes faith. Maybe they'll try to fictionalize faith, but they'll always undercut it instead of letting Mormon-filtered spiritual realities stand. <<>> Nothing wrong with that, is there? I think the way to look at it is how Mormonism intersects with the human experience. How does the Mormon mindset cause tension with human reality? What elements of Mormon faith and worldview make handling problems both better and worse? <<>> I don't like the wording of "abortion as salvation," but I do think we could have a story in which, for example, a Mormon is inspired to have an abortion for a reason other than rape or incest and the results are better than if she would have kept the baby. It's shaky ground, but possibly worth exploring. Or what about a woman who marries a man whom she doesn't realize has some other entanglements that resemble polygamy, and when she finds out she decides to make the family dynamics work (for the benefit of the children as much as anything else) rather than divorcing and fleeing the situation, which the orthodox Mormon viewpoint might require. <<>> I pretty much agree with this. I think Van Wagoner succumbs to the old "baby with the bathwater" problem. Throw the culture out, but keep the gospel--unless he has some better explanation for the universe and the purpose of life, which I doubt, or for the real spiritual manifestations some of us experience. From his interview comments, he obviously was stuck way deep in Mormon parochialism--sailing the seas of cheese, to borrow a phrase from Primus--but he went too far in getting out of it. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 10 Nov 2000 12:13:44 -0700 I'm a long-time browser of the AML-List archives, but the thread on LDS fiction for "real people" has finally persuaded me to subscribe. It seems to me that D. Michael Martindale is positing a false dichotomy between, on the one hand, people with unrealistically perfect lives and, on the other, people whose lives are filled with enormous tragedy. Michael says that "some books seem to act as if" these perfect people exist. I would be interested in having someone identify which books these are and what it is about them that implies they believe in such people. I don't know people who exhibit the level of perfection Michael discusses, but I do know people that are doing pretty well in many of the areas he discusses. I certainly know more of them than I do people who are meth addicts or have committed suicide. There seem to be many people in the middle. People whose lives aren't filled with unspeakable tragedy but that do have trials, many of them fairly mundane. People who occasionally veer off the straight and narrow path but seem to make reasonably rapid course corrections. In what little LDS fiction I've read, there are characters who seem unreal to me but usually not because their lives are too perfect. I know stake presidents have a lot of problems to deal with, but how many of them have Relief Society sisters defecating on their front porch, as happens in Levi Peterson's "The Christianizing of Coburn Heights"? Apparently autoerotic asphyxiation does happen, but is it realism or something else that has induced Signature Books to publish two novels on the subject in the last 5 years? In Kathryn Kidd's _The Alphabet Year_, there's a three-year-old boy who lives in Salt Lake City and is almost always buck naked when he's in public. When he visits a fire station, he "burn[s] his private parts by sliding down the fireman's pole naked". Realistic? I don't think so. My perusal of the archives has taught me that Eric Samuelsen and I disagree on just about everything, but I enjoyed his book _Singled Out_ because the lives portrayed seemed real to me, neither unrealistically perfect nor unrealistically tragic nor unrealistically bizarre. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] Lee NELSON, _The Ephraim Chronicles_ (Review) Date: 10 Nov 2000 00:22:50 GMT Review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Lee Nelson, "The Ephraim Chronicles" 2000, Council Press Distributed by CFI Hardback, 180 pages, $15.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle "The Ephraim Chronicles" is a sweet story of a young boy who, after the accidental death of his mother, finds himself wandering the woods in the dead of winter, terrified and hungry. He and his mother had been fleein ga tyrannical father, looking for a better life in a distant city, when his mother lost control of their automobile. The young boy, Danny Evans, spends the next few years learning to surviv ein the wilds of nature. In the process, he befriends a mother bear and her young cub, who Danny names "Ephraim." Danny quickly learns theessentially gentle and nurturing nature of the giant beast. As a part o fthe family, he accompanies them as they search for food and for shelter. Eventually, Danny is discovered and taken into the home of a kindlyprofessor who tries to instill his own values =96 those of an unbeliever =96into his young charge. The contrasts between city life and life as a "savage" in the wilderness are nicely contrasted. You can take the boy out of the jungle, but can you take the jungle out of the boy? This theme is played several times, with hilarious consequences. Danny is clearly not ready for "primetime," but he has a good heart and he's a quick learner. "The Ephraim Chronicles" tells an interesting story simply and sparely. There is hardly a wasted word in its 180 pages. Nelson is an effective story-teller, knowing how to pace a story and how to bring togetherelements of the tale without losing the attention of the reader. Some may complain that this book is a bit too spare. There were several scenes where I thought the drama could have been enhanced by a few more paragraphs. I later wondered if "The Ephraim Chronicles" wasn't intende dto be read aloud to children. If so, then keeping the story movingbecomes more important. Central to the story of Danny's journey to civility is his corresponding journey from unbelief to faith. Those who believe in the ministration o fangels (as I do) will find much to delight them here. The hand of God i sclearly with this young boy, from his initial survival in the wilderness to the marvelous closure he finds in many areas of his life. I do have one small criticism, and it has to do with what I consider the overuse of commas in the text. Sometimes it makes for an awkward read. An example: It was late in the day, when he saw the highway, across a sprawlingvalley of green grass and wild flowers. (p. 170) Another example: A few seconds later, the barking from one of the dogs, ended with asingle yelp. (p. 75) If the reader were actually reading aloud, the superfluous commas would cause some difficulty, in my opinion. This minor quibble aside, I enjoyed "The Ephraim Chronicles" and believe older children and many adults will likewise enjoy it. Based on a true story, it reminds the reader of the both the harsh realities of life and the kindness of an ever-present God. As we watch young Danny confront seemingly insurmountable difficulties, we realize that life can be lived victoriously if we will only remain open to the whisperings of theSpirit. --Jeffrey Needle E-mail: jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Erica GLENN _Dancing Shoes_ Review (Part 1) Date: 10 Nov 2000 10:53:01 -0800 New Talent Beginning or "Isn't it hot in here?" "Not for violinists." Review of _Dancing Shoes_, by Erica Glenn Based on a novel by Noel Streatfeild Valley Center Playhouse, Lindon Utah, Friday, Saturday, Monday, September 22 - October 7 Part One: Boring Theatrical Reminiscence In April, Lindon city got a matching $2985 grant to map the cemetery (geographic information systems--GIS--maps are very accurate) and computerize a database of burials in the cemetery, to be filed with the Utah State Historical Society. Where is the cemetery? a reporter asks, who has been covering the city council for about a month. 200 East, 600 North, the city administrator, Ott Dameron, replies. It is a small cemetery, about 50 graves, with its share of stuffed toys and windmills. Driving north from the cemetery the reporter notices an old stone house on the east side of the street. Love those old stone houses. My wife doesn't. Right next door is--oh, that's where the Valley Center Playhouse is, just over the border from PG. I've driven down 800 N. (1000 S. in PG) several times for several stories about Lindon's plans to use it as an arterial out to the just-approved freeway interchange, I just haven't noticed the playhouse because it's behind a big apple processing warehouse. The last time I saw a production at Valley Center Playhouse it was the Valley Center Theatre on 300 West between Center and 100 North in Provo (some software company's there now), about 1983, a production of _Our Town_ dedicated to the great Ray Jones, Provo High Drama teacher for many years. (He honored me once by coming to hear me speak--a good fifteen years after I had taken any classes from him.) He mentioned the theatre once in class, said he wished Keith and Jody Renstrom well, spoke well of them, and noted that if you wanted to open a theatre you had best prepare to lose money for at least the first three years. The production was directed by a fellow my then-wife and I knew in the theater dept at BYU, Brent (I think that's the name. I wish I could remember his last name--haunts the tip of my tongue with a B, but maybe it starts with M or N.) He asked us how we liked it. I said, "Well, I'm still thinking about it." I've kicked myself many times for that. I liked it very much, and I still remember fondly the nickering (whickering? I'm not sure what the word is) horse sound effect someone made. An inventive, warm production showing me that Our Town is a better play than I thought. After Donna and I moved to Utah--maybe some time in '92 or '3--I heard Brent as a guest on the radio, maybe he was Gene Pack's guest on KUER, talking about a production he was directing in SLC. If I can remember his name and get in touch with him I want to tell him how much I enjoyed that production. So here I am, driving past the Valley Center Playhouse, remembering when Jody Renstrom came to perform her one-woman show about Emma Smith for our stake (?) Relief Society. I'll have to go see a play there sometime. It's springtime now and I am starting to hear about Erica Glenn, Sharlee's daughter. She's written a musical, music included. Marilyn Brown is quite excited about it, and it will be performed at the Spring-Villa Theatre. But wait, it will also be performed at the Valley Center Playhouse in September and October. So here it is September 30th, a Saturday, and I'm scheduled on the day shift. Good, I'll get to go to the ward dutch oven dinner. (We used to hold it in the next cul-de-sac north of us, but 500 East is a moderately busy street for only being 3 cul-de-sacs long here (4 now), so we moved it around the corner to a cul-de-sac off 1000 South, a very busy street--but the party won't spill out onto it.) And afterwards, "Would you like to go see _Dancing Shoes_?" Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Erica GLENN _Dancing Shoes_ Review (Part 2) Date: 10 Nov 2000 10:53:33 -0800 Part Two: A Night at the Non-opera We get there just after it starts, middle of scene 1, and there are still tickets available. We settle into our well-worn seats. The lights come up on the dancing school where two orphans, Rachel (Erica Glenn) and Hilary (Lauren Frances), have gone to live with their mother's brother and his wife. Madame Ivanova, the dance instructor, is putting her charges through their number--a nicely done charleston. She doesn't have any Russian accent. I'm sure she's supposed to, something more than generic Pleasant Grove. In the intermission Jody Renstrom announces that Miss Ivanova is being played tonight by Betsy Passmore, Miss PG and the show's choreographer, and Pursey the housekeeper is being played by Sheila Heindel (a name I remember from BYU), the director. Seems Gretta Henricksen was in a car accident, and Sheila has had about 2 hours to learn the part. "The show must go on," Renstrom says. Which explains why, all through the first two acts, Pursey has been carrying her household accounts book around for the actress to read lines out of. The actress has quite a feel for the character, have there been rewrites? I keep wondering. That's part of the joy of live theater, seeing the show go on, even with an under-studied understudy. The play shows great feel for girls just becoming teenagers, and I think it could become a staple of junior high drama departments. But as I think more about it, there are enough good roles for children, teenagers and adults that it deserves to become a staple of community theatres. The adult roles are not written with as much depth as the children's roles, and there's a scene that suggests how their roles could be expanded. The stage is a square with seating on three sides. During one number, "The Argument," Uncle Tom (Rob Pellegrini) is arguing with Aunt Cora (Beverly Jameson) about Dulcie (Jessica Woahn, also assistant choreographer), their spoiled prima ballerina daughter. He's on one side of the square, she's on the other, and their movements suggest a chess game. They're arguing about how Cora gives Dulcie anything she wants except discipline. For Cora, Dulcie is the prize in the chess game, but for Tom the prize is being a father to his daughter. The number only suggests this, though. It could be expanded, which would make the reconciliation scene at the end more poignant, more believable. Of course, at the end we finally see Dulcie as a human being, someone who has feelings and can actually be hurt by other peoples' words about her. This is almost a cliche, and could be deepened by deepening the parents' characters. I don't know whether this shallowness in the adult characters comes from Noel Streatfeild's novel, or time limits on the production, but it wouldn't add too many minutes to deepen the conflict between Cora and Tom, especially since Tom is such a delightful character, and has maybe the best bit of business in the show. Dulcie is jealous of Rachel, and Cora decides to send her off to a boarding school to get rid of her. Miss Eastwood (Sherry Pelligrini (and Kaelie Pellegrini is one of the Little Wonders, the school's junior dance troupe--nice seeing families on stage together)), the girls' tutor tells Cora she'll quit if Rachel goes off to boarding school. Rachel is a much better student than Dulcie and has a good feel for Shakespeare. When Tom tells Rachel what Miss Eastwood has done he ends by saying, "So all your worrying was much ado about nothing." Rachel turns to leave the room and he starts counting on his fingers, 4-3-2-1, while Rachel is repeating the phrase, "Much ado about nothing." As Tom's finger counts the last beat, Rachel turns around and says, "Oh, Shakespeare." A nicely done production. Not the best I've seen, but I cared about the characters, and could tell the cast did, and it's nice to see people like Jessica Woahn and Erica Glenn at the beginning of their careers. I should mention the dancers, as well, Mary Jerome, Katy Williamson and Kami Sisson played the Older Wonders, with Kaelie Pellegrini, Rebecca Woahn, Sarah Stevens, Kristen Miner and Afton Ivey as the Little Wonders. JC Carter doubled as Dr. Brown and Mr. Bing. Charonne Vanderwel played Madame Ivanova (except the night I saw it), and rounding out the Glenn family's involvement, James Glenn played Mr. Kenneth and Dylan and Patrick Glenn played Timmy. Lara Wells choreographed Dulcie's ballet numbers, and other names in the production crew (which included several cast members) show how much community theatre gives families a chance to do something fun together. Jody Renstrom, Heidi Woahn, Jonell Francis, and Laurie Ivey did the costumes. Rachel Lagerstedt did the sound, and Emma Lagerstedt the lights. I hope this play sees lots more productions and I hope we see lots more plays from Erica Glenn, and more acting from the others, both children and adults. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 10 Nov 2000 12:02:36 -0700 1. Was the conference worth attending? Why? Yes. It's helpful to absorb the experiences and advice of others and to feel part of a community. 2. What would you change to make it more valuable to you? Produce a book of handouts provided by faculty members. Bring in a national agent or editor who is interested in considering some Mormon material, and allow individual appointments (for a reasonable extra fee, probably). 3. Was the admittance fee fair, or do you think it should be different? Should probably be more like $15-20, unless presenters are being paid. 4. Do you prefer having a catered lunch, or would you rather fend for yourself? Was the lunch priced fairly? I like the catered lunch, and I thought the price was fair. 5. Which sessions were most valuable to you? Dean Hughes free associating about plot and structure, and also his plenary speech. 6. How could any sessions you attended have been improved? Some good advice and insight floated past in the craft of writing workshops, but we may need a whole-morning workshop where people actually work on manuscripts, perhaps mss. that have been circulated to the instructor and classmates the week before. Writers at Work is a format we might like to explore and adapt a few ideas from. 7. What are your feelings about using UVSC as the location? Were the facilities acceptable? Where would you prefer the conference be held? It's hard to find where you're going at UVSC. Is there a place in Sandy or the south valley that is more equidistant from population centers? 8. Do you like the time of year the conference is held (November), or would you prefer another? Not a strong preference either way. 9. Was the length of the conference about right, or would you prefer a longer conference (evening sessions, more than one day)? I would prefer an evening session for the performances, and maybe a Friday afternoon workshop for writers with manuscripts that they want to specifically work on. 10. How did you like the guests of honor: Margaret Young, Darius Gray, Dean Hughes? Dean Hughes was quite good, but I could have left at 4:00 and missed Young and Gray. I don't think Gray addressed a useful topic. 11. Did you attend any of the performance sessions (BYU student films, "I Am Jane" performance, literature readings)? Did you enjoy them? Would you like to see other types of performance sessions? I would have liked to see them all, but I came to the writers' conference to attend seminars on writing, not do what I can already do elsewhere as a spectator. 12. If you were to design the schedule for next year, what are some sessions you would want to include? How to revise and rewrite a novel manuscript. Strategies for tricking the national market (agents, editors) into accepting some Mormon-oriented work. Strategies for influencing the Mormon culture away from historical and romantic cheese. 13. What guests would you like to see? Richard Dutcher, Orson Scott Card, a national agent or editor, Anne Perry. 14. What made you decide to attend the conference this year? Nothing else like it available. 15. Any other comments? I was surprised at how low the attendance was. I wonder if we should look at a Writers @ Work style weeklong summer conference, with real classes and manuscripts. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Real People Date: 10 Nov 2000 12:20:36 -0700 On Thu, 09 Nov 2000 22:28:59 EST, Larry Jackson wrote: >No, but some books seem to act as if there are other>kinds. You know, the kind of people who hold family>home evening without fail every Monday night, do their>home and visiting teaching the first week of every month,>attend the temple every month (preferably at 6:00 am), ...> >_______________ > >These would belong in the fiction department, wouldn't>they? :-> Not fiction. I know people who do all the above (well, I can't vouch for the 6:00 am part and sometimes it runs into the second or third week). If your idealogy cannot conceive of people who do everything they are supposed to for all the right reasons then your idealogy is flawed. Fortunately, such people are often blissfully unaware that they don't exist. Mostly because they don't tend to read much fiction... Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 10 Nov 2000 13:05:42 -0700 A few thoughts on the "Godspell" controversy: (1) Richard Johnson suggested that students opposed to the play simply not participate in it. Is it really that simple? In my high school, all drama students (i.e., those in drama classes or intending to letter in drama) were required to participate in all plays (either as cast or crew). (2) Even if there is no such requirement at Ogden High, there are only so many plays a school can put on during the year. A school that puts on a play that is too offensive for a student to participate in has reduced the number of plays that that student can participate in. (3) The _Deseret News_ story on the controversy suggests that Ogden High students need to seek special permission *not* to attend a school play. Given that level of endorsement of its plays by the school, I can see why some students and parents might not be satisfied with the "love it or leave it" option. (4) Thom Duncan said that he thought the dissenting parents were "hyper-spiritual". In 1994 President Hinckley wrote a letter to Pioneer Theatre Company threatening to withdraw the Church's grant to that company because of profanity in some of their productions. I'm assuming Thom doesn't think President Hinckley is hyper-spiritual, so I was wondering what he thought the essential difference is between these parents' actions this year and President Hinckley's actions in 1994. If Ogden High were to put on the plays President Hinckley objected to, could parents object to them without being hyper-spiritual? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Bennion Subject: [AML] John BENNION, _Falling Toward Heaven_ Date: 10 Nov 2000 13:27:41 -0700 I've given birth to a novel: { SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1}Announcing publication of a new book by John Bennion (author of Breeding Leah and Other Stories) Falling Toward Heaven, a novel =93=91We=92re not angels,=92 the young missionary confides to a Latino convert. Her reply: =91You are muy authentica=92=96which is true of Falling Toward Heaven. It is a book that doesn=92t flinch in the face of the snafus and bollixed situations it portrays, that draws us wholly and scrupulously into the world of its dispossessed characters. It is plain-speaking and avoids easy answers about faith and love.=94=96Darrell Spencer, author, Caution: Men in Trees =93Falling Toward Heaven is wise and brave. Bennion understands the continuum of actions and consequences=96where integrity breeds suffering, while right springs inscrutably from wrong. His fictional world is full=96rounded with exact detail=96and rich, with an ultimately more satisfying reward than mere answers; his are worthy questions well asked.=94 =96Mary Clyde, author, Survival Rates The publisher will begin filling orders to bookstores on October 30. For more information, please visit the publisher's website at: http://www.signaturebooksinc.com/falling.htm John Bennion, Falling Toward Heaven, paperback, 300 pp., $19.95, ISBN: 1-56085-140-6 ________________ Professor John Bennion 3117 JKHB English Department Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602-6280 Tel: (801) 378-3419 Fax: (801) 378-4705 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re:[AML] Real People Date: 10 Nov 2000 18:46:31 -0200 I don=B4t Know a lot about american literature....my knowledge about this subject consists in reading a lot of pocket books (trash literature) only with the objective to improve my English. Now, I=B4m in a new phase of reading : James Joice, Ernest Hemingway (maybe an american), Ezra Pond, etc...trying to read a better literature and a better writing... But none of these names, except hemingway, are american I supose... Who are the best american writers nowadays? What about the classics? Don=B4t tell me about Harold Robbins, Sidney Sheldon or other thash writers.... :-))) Living outside, I have the impression the american literature is full of advendure books, fiction, and few books of REAL PEOPLE, REAL THINGS, REAL LIFE... The cause is: THE TRASH SELLS ITSELF...GOOD BOOKS PEOPLE DON=B4T LIKE I want to be wrong....Am I wrong? Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br __________________________________________________________________________ Todo brasileiro tem direito a um e-mail gr=E1tis http://www.bol.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Essay Location Query Date: 10 Nov 2000 14:05:02 -0700 Also available in two essay collections (both out of print): _Personal Voices_ edited by Mary Bradford, and _A Thoughtful Faith_ edited by Phil Barlow. > >>> jlangfor@pressenter.com 11/10/00 09:50AM >>> > > > >I received a question about where an essay I mentioned in an earlier post, > >"What the Church Means to People Like Me"--I believe by Richard Poll, but [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 10 Nov 2000 16:43:39 -0700 Well, Christopher got my defensive juices going quite well. To implicitly label _One More River to Cross_ as the head cheese in a whole bunch of processed cheese (including Dean Hughes's books?!) is just a tad unfair--unless he's read everything he's panning/dismissing with that one blanket. Christopher might want to check out a review by a NON-LDS reviewer (Black) at http://www.queenhyte.com/dobb/nov 00.htm. (The same review can be found at Deseret's site, Deseretbook.com.) I believe we are making tremendous strides in Mormon literature. Not everything will be of equal quality, but the "processed cheese" is only one section of what Deseret is offering--and probably not something which should be comprehensively judged without at least a taste. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Where Was Kristen Randle? Date: 11 Nov 2000 02:47:32 -0700 For those of you who attended the "Is It okay to Write About God?" session at the AML writers conference, only to discover that an important panelist, Kristen Randle, never showed up, I wanted to pass this information on to you (and so does she). She has been working feverishly to get her son ready and off on his mission, which she finally did this week. As many of you know, the conference was originally scheduled for Nov 11, but had to be changed to Nov 4. Some promotional material had already gone out announcing the Nov 11 date, and Kristen received that material. In the midst of her hectic life, she tried to find something that gave her the date of the conference, and when she found it, she carefully wrote the date on her calendar and told everyone around her to make sure she didn't forget it. Unfortunately, the item she took the date from was the old promotional material with the wrong date. She apologizes for missing the conference, but I think we can all see how easily such a mistake could be made. I wanted everyone to know that a legitimate mistake had been made, and not that she just flaked out on us. She would have made it to her session all along if we hadn't switched dates on her. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 10 Nov 2000 15:25:52 -0700 >I don't know people who exhibit the level of perfection Michael >discusses, but I do know people that are doing pretty well in >many of the areas he discusses. I certainly know more of them >than I do people who are meth addicts or have committed suicide. You may be right. You may also not your friends as well as you do. I just recently learned that a friend of twenty years has been a long-time porn addict and was recently sent packing by his wife when she discovered him engaged in phone sex at his own house with a woman he'd been carrying on a long-time affair with. This man had once taught Elder's Quorum when we were in the same ward. A more inspiring and talented teacher I had never before had. Once, while I was out of town, and needed my house painted, he went out, bought the paint, and single-handedly painted my entire house. I never knew, didn't even suspect, that he had this problem. Sure, he had other personality problems of which I was aware, but, frankly, in the area of sexual desire, I had always considered him a rather cold fish. And that is just one of a dozen similar stories about people who were otherwise model Church members until their darker sides were made known through various means. What books like Dancing Naked does is help others see what I and others have had to learn the hard way--that we, as Mormons, are, sad to say, no better or worse than any other group of people our size. I know we'd like to think so, but it doesn't seem to be that way. A friend who teaches abnormal psychology at BYU stood on my front porch in North Orem once and told me, "Thom, you would be shocked if I told you how many people, many within walking distance, many whom you know from this ward, are involved in the most disgusting aspects of human behavior: spouse abuse, child sexual molestation. And that doesn't count the many people who you would be suprised to know have contemplated and even attempted suicide." >There seem to be many people in the middle. People whose lives >aren't filled with unspeakable tragedy but that do have trials, >many of them fairly mundane. People who occasionally veer off >the straight and narrow path but seem to make reasonably rapid >course corrections. Yes, there are, but we also have many who are in the darkest clutches of degradation. We can't ignore that (at least, some of us can't ignore that -- I'm not suggesting that all Mormon artists need to deal with such edgy material). >In what little LDS fiction I've read, there are characters who >seem unreal to me but usually not because their lives are too >perfect. I know stake presidents have a lot of problems to deal >with, but how many of them have Relief Society sisters >defecating on their front porch, as happens in Levi Peterson's >"The Christianizing of Coburn Heights"? My first Bishop had an affair with the RS president, stole all the tithing money in our ward, and ran off with her. These kinds of Mormons DO exist. You may not know them, but they'r out there. There stories are as compelling as the kind your suggesting. > Apparently autoerotic >asphyxiation does happen, but is it realism or something else >that has induced Signature Books to publish two novels on the >subject in the last 5 years? Apparently, it happens enough in our culture for President Hinckeley to mention during the last Priesthood Conference. > In Kathryn Kidd's _The Alphabet >Year_, there's a three-year-old boy who lives in Salt Lake City >and is almost always buck naked when he's in public. When he >visits a fire station, he "burn[s] his private parts by sliding >down the fireman's pole naked". Realistic? I don't think so. Because you've never seen it? Why do you think it's unrealistic? >My perusal of the archives has taught me that Eric Samuelsen >and I disagree on just about everything, but I enjoyed his book >_Singled Out_ because the lives portrayed seemed real to me, >neither unrealistically perfect nor unrealistically tragic nor >unrealistically bizarre. When it comes to human behavior, literally anything you can imagine humans doing has been done, and Mormons have done it as much, if not more in some cases, as other people. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 10 Nov 2000 16:32:19 -0700 Chiam Potok, an ordained Rabbi in his faith, has said on more than one occasion that the best writing comes from a soul firmly centered in religious tradition, yet aware of the value of other traditions as well (which may produce a "core conflict" when a Jewish person recognizes and reveres the religiosity of a Protestant or a Mormon.) Interestingly, one of my former students who considers himself a very "on the fringe" Mormon found _Dancing Naked_ full of demonized stereotypes of Mormons. I haven't read the book myself (been steeped in other kinds of reading for two years and will certainly continue so steeped for two more), but I found this response a very interesting one--especially coming from this particular kid. He said, "You know I have issues with the Church--I mean BIG issues. But I recognize a stereotype when I see one. I hope I'd never write like that." I will say that I have a gay brother-in-law, whom I love dearly. My oldest daughter, who will be married on November 21, had a terrible case of homophobia for years--would not even touch food my brother-in-law had prepared. She has gone beyond that, thank God (and I mean that in a very real way). My extremely gifted brother-in-law will make my daughter's wedding cake--and it will be a masterpiece. She asked him to do it. I find it remarkable that he has remained loyal to the family, is probably the most generous of all my husband's siblings, and is always eager to show love and loyalty to us Youngs even when some have been less than loving to him. I find him heroic, frankly. But that heroism comes not from his rejection of family/Church values, but from his long-suffering good will towards ALL of us. The cake is his gift to Kaila, and her invitation to him to make it signals a great gift to the Young family. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 10 Nov 2000 18:38:09 EST In a message dated 11/10/00 3:43:49 PM Central Standard Time, ChrisB@enrich.com writes: << They offer the following holiday book shopping tip: "Shadow Mountain books are perfect gifts for your non-LDS friends and relatives because, although they are for the most part written by LDS authors, they are directed to a general audience. For example, Gerald Lund's new series, _The Kingdom and the Crown_, does not have any LDS-specific doctrine and will be enjoyed by members and friends of the Church alike." >> I offered my MS on my young pioneers to Shadow Mountains Press, pointing out that it was directed to a general audience. "It does not fit our needs" was very prominent on the bottom of the page. In truth, my book is being used in schools now, and will eventually reach a big audience, or so the book dealers tell me. It will do a lot to educate the public about the Mormon trail experience. Somehow they could not see that. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire Date: 11 Nov 2000 00:59:52 -0700 renatorigo wrote: > We musn=B4t laugh at church, conferences...etc They're really saying that? Better tell all those General Authorities to stop cracking jokes then (including President Hinckley). --D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 11 Nov 2000 01:53:25 -0700 Annette Lyon wrote: > A few months ago, I recall a lively debate over whether the play _Bash_ (was > that the title?) should have been written with the national audience in mind > when it portayed Mormons so badly (homophobia, the same issue). That if it > was written for us, as a wakeup call, that would be one thing, but to > portray us to the masses, a group that may stereotype us, was something else > entirely. But no one has said a word about that regarding _Dancing Naked_. > Is that because we all assumed it was written for us? Well, it wasn't. Does > that change how we view it? I was the one who made the assertion about _Bash_. I haven't said a word about _Dancing Naked_ because I haven't read it. If, after reading the book, I agree with your characterization of it, I may very well say the same thing about it. > Secondly, I felt thrown back to the Where is our Amy Tan? discussion reading > Van Wagner's opinion about our national literary future. He insists that he > is a better writer for having abandoned his faith (basically seeing both > sides of the fence). Also, that when a Mormon writer reaches the high > acclaim, it will be because they have faced what he called the "human > experience" rather than the "Mormon experience." I question both of his assertions: that someone who has abandoned the faith writes Mormon literature, and that the only way to write better literature is to abandon the faith. Basically he wants to turn Mormon literature into mainstream literature. But then it's not Mormon literature anymore. Can someone who has abandoned the faith write Mormon literature? It ceases to be Mormon literature if the author ceases to be Mormon. I'm not saying it couldn't be good literature, or have something important to say about the culture. But to me, the only meaningful Mormon literature is that written by someone who accepts the faith. Otherwise, it's just another version of mainstream literature. I also question that we have to become critical of the faith to write well about it. I would argue that the opposite may very well be true. Someone who rejects the faith is limited in the useful things he has say to those who accept it. He also will be tempted to take the easy way out in his resolution of the issues he addresses. For example, take the doctrine of giving the priesthood to males only. Some male members of the church seem to believe this doctrine justifies their treating women as second class citizens in the kingdom of God. If an author wishes to address this injustice, and he has abandoned the faith, he will likely attack the doctrine itself. But to me, a believing member, this is useless information: the doctrine is not going away. A true Mormon will likely explore how a believer avoids sexism while espousing the doctrine of the priesthood. Not only is this more valuable to me--someone who accepts the faith--but it also makes more interesting literature than to just say, chuck the doctrine. Where's the complexity, the heroicism, the nobility in a tale that concludes the doctrine should be abandoned, compared to the tale that explores how one avoids sexism while espousing the doctrine? I would expect the second tale to be better literature, all else being equal. Even to someone who doesn't accept the faith. I do not accept the religious worldview of Jews. Yet I can watch _Fiddler on the Roof_ and get very involved in Tevye's grief over his daughter's marriage to a Gentile. The tragedy that I don't believe with him that he needed to react as he did only deepens the poignancy I feel for the story. How much more boring and trivial the story would have been if Tevye, in his internal dialog with himself, had simply decided not to worry about what his religion dictates and accept his daughter's marriage with open arms. _Fiddler on the Roof_ was powerful because the author respected the tenets of the religion. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People Date: 11 Nov 2000 01:57:02 -0700 Larry Jackson wrote: > I think it would be fun to run into a character who did only > one of these things really well, and then was wickedly > down to earth in most other ways. Built in conflict. I think that might be going too far to the other extreme. I'd be happy with a family that does most of them well, but falls short in one or two areas which end up causing conflict. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harlow Clark Subject: [AML] Kristallnacht Date: 10 Nov 2000 23:27:43 -0500 (EST) November 10, 2000 Today is the anniversary of Kristallnacht. At 11:55 p.m. Nov. 9, 1938 Heinr ich M=FCller sent out orders to all Gestapo offices advising them not to in terfere with =93actions against Jews=94 that would begin shortly. (For a co py of the orders see http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/knacht1 a.htm.) People born on Kristallnacht are today beginning their 63rd year, that is, they=92re getting ready to retire, some already have. Astonishing to think how much has happened in that time, and a bit astonishing to think that peo ple born on this night are less than 20 years older than me, and yet I feel the =9130s and =9140s as a distant time, long past, mysterious and inacces sible. I yearn to know what it was like for the people caught up in that time. My Uncle Ray brought back a monkey, Susie, from WWII (=93My Uncle=92s Monkey =94 my brother Dennis titled a poem) which he later gave to Hogle Zoo, wher e he used to take his children to visit her. Ray married late, so his child ren are even farther removed from the 40s than I am, but Susie is a link. I started writing an essay about my uncles in WWII, and about Paul Fussell' s _Wartime_. I need to take it up again. All the ones young enough to have been in the war have died. It's just Jack and my mother left. I hate to see that generation dying out. When I started reading Dean Hughes's _A Rumor of War_ I noticed it begins o n Kristallnacht, in the morning, watching a synagogue burn. I=92d still be reading it but someone put a hold on it at the library, so I=92m reading Da vid (Farland) Wolverton=92s The _Brotherhood of the Wolf_ in the meantime. Love libraries. Harlow S. Clark - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 11 Nov 2000 05:43:34 -0700 It is instructive to look at the ethical basis for the expressed opinions on this issue. The opposing parents felt that "Godspell" violated their belief that portrayals of Deity should be traditionally "reverent," which in Mormonese means quiet, dignified, conservative, with precedent, cautious. Eric Samuelsen presented the stance that moral judgments should not be made about art--that it is wrong to impose one's own frame on a piece of art that has its own ethical impulse. Other theatre advocates chimed in with the judgment that conservative, un-"artsy" Mormons lack the perception to recognize the ethical value of certain kinds of art and attempt to impose their own limited framework on others in an unfortunate manner. Tood Peterson responded that judging the conservative, apparently less-educated Mormons in harsh terms has strong negative ethical implications--that no person has the right to assume that his or her frame of reference is unassailable. Then, interestingly, Rob Pannoni sees a higher ethical stance in the separation of church and state. He finds advocating a religious system (via art) in a school setting inappropriate. He finds a difference between art that examines a religious culture and art that advocates a certain moral frame. I have to ask Rob though how art can avoid advocating its own moral frame? Frankly, I see sense in all of the ethical stances presented, but I believe some of them take precedent over others (for me) in a hierarchy. I have to agree that imposition of values on others is inappropriate. I remember one friend of mine bemoaning a non-Mormon female student at American Fork High School who asked the girl's dancing team to stop having group prayer before competitions. My friend felt, and was supported in her opinion by others in my ward, that the non-Mormon student was unfairly taking away a privilege that the Mormon students deserved to practice. I couldn't agree. I felt the minority student had a stronger right to insist that a belief system not be imposed upon her categorically. I can't see a state church being fair. However, I say this understanding that my children have enjoyed and valued the prayers that their high school groups engaged in. Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 11 Nov 2000 05:57:25 -0700 On Behalf Of Christopher > Bigelow > > In the catalog where other companies advertise, the cover shows > one of the worst kitsch items I've ever seen in Mormondumb: > Heavenly Reminder Bears, including a category called Ordinance > Bears (Duncan the baptism bear comes with a tag you can fill in > with your name and baptismal date). Please, say it isn't so! Somebody help me here--my first reaction is that an "Ordinance Bear" can't help but trivialize a sacred covenant. But I'm trying to figure out whether various kinds of "art" reach people at different levels. Even though this example makes me feel embarrassed and culture-shocked, obviously marketeers (derivative of Mouseketeers) think somebody out there will respond. > > Mormon-American processed cheese. I don't know about you, but > this ain't my culture. > Chris, I guess you have to be "in the culture, but not of the culture." Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 11 Nov 2000 11:05:31 -0200 > The most import thing in a book isn=B4t the fact if the story is real or not...but the ability of the writer in bring reality to the reader... In other words...the reader should learn something in the end of the story... The writer must be able to create characters with real features...features we can find in a common person or features we can rarely find but that disturbs the world a lot...like violency, hipocrisy,false words, fragility, paranoic...etc I=B4m translating my book into English. It=B4s a Story about the italian imigrant that came to Brazil last century...it=B4s a romance (not romantic) full of stories about the life (not real stories) in last century in Brazil... I intend to send my book to people interested in reading something different about a strange country...and help me (sometimes) with my bad English Writing... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 11 Nov 2000 11:16:15 -0200 > I=B4m sure that a particular faith is able to cause problems in the ability of writing well... But the problem isn=B4t the faith...the problem is that the writer doesn=B4t practice equilibrium in his Literature and He cesures himself all the time to keep the book acording to his beliefs. The result only could be an uninteresting book full of subjects related to his religion and uninteresting to the common world... Every good writer has to be able to transform reality into a book...showing good and bad things...without censuring himself.... You don=B4t need to abandon your faith to do this...!!!! Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 11 Nov 2000 11:25:05 -0200 > Eric..you don=B4t need to abandon LDS culture to become a better writer...you only need to abandon the censure and keep a joint-venture with the reality... This will allow you to create every kind of characters with several features (LDS or not)...this is the world... There are only 11 million people in the world members of LDS Church...11 million / 6 billion =3D 0,18 % The world is 0,18% LDS and 99,82% others...This is the real world.. Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 11 Nov 2000 13:43:15 -0800 At 04:43 PM 11/10/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Well, Christopher got my defensive juices going quite well. To implicitly >label _One More River to Cross_ as the head cheese in a whole bunch of >processed cheese (including Dean Hughes's books?!) is just a tad >unfair--unless he's read everything he's panning >/dismissing with that one blanket. [snip] Amen to Margaret's comment. My review of the her book expressed a deep admiration for how far Mormon literature has come. Yes, some LDS literature is awful, but a lot of it is very good, too. --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] AML Christmas Gathering Date: 10 Nov 2000 14:06:18 -0700 It's a little far ahead, but if you're like me your planner is already filling fast for the holidays. Our AML-List moderator, Jonathan Langford, will be in Utah over Christmas, and maybe some others of you will as well. Who would be interested in getting together for some kind of AML dinner or party? If it's just a small group, maybe we could meet for dinner downtown SLC and stroll the lights and windows afterward. If a larger group is interested, we could move to a party mode, with some kind of buffet or refreshments and maybe an open mike for readings. Another option would be to meet for dinner in Springville and then go see a play at Marilyn Brown's community theater--it would be "Annie" at this particularly time. Or for those who don't want to see "Annie," we could split up after dinner and the non-"Annie"-goers could maybe hit a 16-plex or find somewhere else to hang out, talk, maybe share some readings. The best date for the "Annie"-or-not option would be Monday, Dec. 18. Other possible dates include the following (vote for your preferred date): Saturday, Dec. 16 Wednesday, Dec. 20 Thursday, Dec. 21 Tuesday, Dec. 26 Wednesday, Dec. 27 Thursday, Dec. 28 Any other ideas or suggestions are welcome. I'll monitor the sitcheeayshun and keep y'all posted. Unless it's something for the whole list to consider, you can reply privately to me at chrisb@enrich.com. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 13 Nov 2000 09:38:36 -0700 Oops, Margaret, I must have hit SEND too soon. I meant to point out a few things as EXCEPTIONS, certainly including your novel, and I'm sorry my final summary "cheese" statement seemed to apply to everything mentioned. (I think I tried to start out being positive but then got caught up in the other side.) I agree with you, we are making progress, but the overall tenor of the Deseret Book mailing still put me off more than made me proud---your novel and a handful of other things excepted. I meant to provoke SOME response, but obviously I went too far or didn't express myself carefully enough if my comments could be interpreted like you did. By the way, I'm currently reading aloud Dean Hughes's first Children of the Promise novel to my wife, and we're enjoying it pretty well, and soon we'll turn to yours and Darius's soon with greater anticipation. I noticed the Salt Lake Tribune deigned to review your novel in yesterday's paper (Martin Naparstek[sp?], even)---can Jonathan run that, with the copyright arrangement I believe AML-List has with SL Trib? Ah, the joys of half-baked e-mail, Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 11 Nov 2000 19:58:24 -0700 >Well, Christopher got my defensive juices going quite well. To implicitly label _One More River to Cross_ as the head cheese in a whole bunch of processed cheese (including Dean Hughes's books?!) is just a tad unfair--unless he's read everything he's panning/dismissing with that one blanket. Calm down Margeret, I understood that Chris was naming the only books that he thought were worth naming and the un-named were processed cheeze. He probably thought your book was full of soul, wit, and brain--the head cheeze, if you will. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People Date: 11 Nov 2000 19:57:36 -0600 Rentago Rigo wrote: "Who are the best american writers nowadays? Living outside, I have the impression the american literature is full of advendure books, fiction, and few books of REAL PEOPLE, REAL THINGS, REAL LIFE... The cause is: THE TRASH SELLS ITSELF...GOOD BOOKS PEOPLE DON=B4T LIKE. I want to be wrong....Am I wrong?" Rentago, Everthing is relative, but there are some modern American literatures that go beyond the trash and talk about real people. One that has been fascinating me for the past couple months is the Jewish-American novel, which I primarily see in Saul Bellow, Issac Singer and Phillip Roth. For the past week I've been reading "The Human Stain," the latest by Roth, and have found it fascinatng. There is no pretense, no gimmicks, no tricks, just straight forward rich prose giving life to complicated characters, dealing with the big questions of life, death, identity, morality and sex. I wouldn't recommend this book to everyone, but if you crave for something honest and real it would fit the bill. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 12 Nov 2000 14:25:14 -0700 > 5. Which sessions were most valuable to you? The conference was most valuable to me by way of inspiration. I very much enjoyed the session on Cultural Critique by Elbert Peck and Eric Snyder (even though Eric said he only got to speak for five minutes. Eric--you should have tried to answer my garbled question about communicating with noncommunicators .) Kenny Kemp's session on self-publishing was excellent. He was superprepared with handouts listing the steps to take, the books to read, the web-sites to visit. And his current success story made it all the more impressive. > > 10. How did you like the guests of honor: Margaret Young, Darius Gray, > Dean Hughes? I was very touched and impressed by what Margaret and Darius had to say. Margaret told about one of her Spanish-speaking seminary students who had been taught that his race and place of birth were the result of poor performance in the pre-existence. Margaret disabused him of that notion, but expressed sadness that such teachings were still taking place. I'm afraid that message is still being taught in my ward! (I would like to know--how can that idea be best refuted? Anybody?) > > 11. Did you attend any of the performance sessions (BYU student films, > "I Am Jane" performance, literature readings)? Did you enjoy them? Would > you like to see other types of performance sessions? The BYU student films were compelling. Two of them were devastating critiques of violence, the titles I think were "Wargames" and "The Last Good War." Eric Samuelson said both probably were available for purchase through BYU--I want to buy them for my family to see! Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 12 Nov 2000 17:52:34 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 1:18 PM > The Deseret Book Christmas mailing is as good as anything for assessing the current state of commercial Mormon literature and publishing. I just got mine yesterday. Have you seen the latest issue of the Latter-Day Harvest catalog? You know, the one where one side is Living Scriptures and the other is Mormon lit and other cra...er...I mean kitsch? > In the catalog where other companies advertise, the cover shows one of the worst kitsch items >I've ever seen in Mormondumb: Heavenly Reminder Bears nope, sorry, they do not qualify as the worst kitsch item, might come close, but I nominate the NEW! My Brass Plates and I quote: Now there are four great ways you can keep your family history on permanent Brass Plates-- like the plates in the Book of Mormon! We chemically etch text and photos onto actual brass! Perfect for past and present family records, your Brass Plates will become a family heirloom to be passed on for generations. (Well, not for too many more generations since we are coming up on 2001 and I really doubt anyone is going to say, 'arise and come forth, and don't forget our brass plates honey!) The Basic Starter Kit is $129.95, there is also a Table Display Kit for $179.95 (which includes the Basic Starter Kit, a Plaque Display Kit for $39.95 and the ever fabulous Floor Display Kit (which does not include the Basic Starter Kit) for $249.95. These prices are the original prices and do not reflect the special prices offered by LDH. Not to be forgotten on everyone's wish list are the LDS Conference Center Medallions ($99.95), the smiley face scripture tote bag, temple candles, RS Emblem Candles, and the regular edition (not to be confused with the special Third Kingdom Edition) Who Wants to be a Celestial Heir? game. Looking over the books, I see a few that I might be interested in if I didn't have to mortgage my house to pay shipping and handling. Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] MN Wondrous Talent, Wondrous Debut, Wondrous Love: Date: 12 Nov 2000 16:44:25 -0700 on 11/9/00 6:49 PM, Larry Jackson at lajackson@juno.com wrote: > Fans will have ample opportunity to hear Dyer perform live within the > coming months. The 2000 - 2001 season finds him onstage with the Ohio > Opera in Columbus, with Tennessee's Chattanooga Opera, and in > Jerusalem performing the role of Jesus Christ in the world premiere > of Lex de Azevedo's HOSANNA. Wow! And to think I knew him back when he was in a band doing "Wham!" covers! "Wake me up be-fore you go, go, I'm not plan-nin' on go-in' so-lo! Yeah, yeah, yeah!" :-) Congrats George, you sound great in any style. Steve P. _ _ _ _ _ skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Value of Literature Date: 13 Nov 2000 00:59:32 -0800 On Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:36:51 -0500 "Tracie Laulusa" writes: > It wasn't that long ago that I connected with my desire to write > again, and it has been a massively frustrating experience. > > For one, I just have no confidence that, even if I gave it my best > for the rest of my life, anything I write will ever be of any lasting > worth to anyone. What is more ephemeral than newspaper writing? The work I write in the morning will go in Wednesday's paper, one or two pieces will go on NewUtah.com for a week, then it's gone. ("What we need is an archive," my editor said, "That's when a website becomes valuable.") Except . . . Stopping by Royal West Martial Arts Academy yesterday to talk about doing an interview (No one was there) I noticed the Welcome to Lindon: Established 1924 sign. 76 years from now someone wanting to know what Lindon was like at the turn of the century will find my work invaluable. My work will give them a portrait of a small town with a lot of home-based businesses[1] trying to hold on to "A Little Bit of Country" while the county is growing rapidly and Lindon farmers are rapidly developing their orchards and pastures into neighborhoods. My work will give glimpses of a former policeman who lives at the bottom of a hill, and used to pull into his driveway each night after work and write 2 or 3 speeding tickets before Lindon abolished its police force and fire department and combined with PG's, the man who bought fireworks and wanted to do a big display in the park next to Rocky Mountain Elementary for the 4th of July to keep all the neighbors from shooting off illegal fireworks, but some neighbors objected because they were afraid their animals (horses, mainly) would get spooked, or have sparks fall on them, the man who found an interesting way around a speed bump, the couple who turned a milkbarn into a house after WWII, and the city's discussion about meandering the sidewalk so that when the road is widened the sidewalk will be more than 5 feet from their front door, the husband and wife dog-training team, the various people trying to influence a future arterial so it caused the least pain to the fewest, the PG man who moved to the top of a dead end street (for privacy) on the PG/Lindon border that is slated to become an aterial when the dead orchard and other property to the south is developed, and many other people. And if I were to take all my notes that didn't make it into the paper and combine them with the stories, my portrait would be even more valuable, and not because I'm a very good writer, but because newspapers are primary sources for historians, so the people writing about the other cities in the north county are also creating valuable portraits of rural Utah in a time of rapid change. (Of course, writing well doesn't hurt. I got an interesting compliment from my city editor Friday. She asked me if I'd like to do more features, even shift mostly to feature writing. "Your features are always good. You have a way of getting inside peoples' heads." "It comes from being a fiction writer.") All the writing you do will improve your writing, even the stuff that seems most ephemeral. For me, writing for the newspaper has had another benefit. I'm a fairly shy person. ("Has your family tried 'em Powdered Milk? / Has your family tried 'em Powdered Milk? / If your family's tried 'em / You know you've satisfied 'em / They're the real hot item, Powdered Milk," as that chronicler of small town Minnesota, Carson Wyler (aka Guy Noir) sings about the biscuits that give shy people to courage to do what needs to be done.) Reporting puts me in a position where I need to talk to people, sometimes about controversial issues, who sometimes don't want to talk to me. But if newspaper writing counters my shyness, it also gives me a ready response to those magic words, "query with published clips." [1][Eva] Ercanbrack [of Timp Tour and Travel, a home-based business in Lindon], said that 62 of Pleasant Grove's 560 businesses are Chamber members and 22 of Lindon's approximately 500 businesses belong to the Chamber. She said the similar number of businesses in two cities with such different populations (Pleasant Grove, 20,000, Lindon, 8,000) means there are a lot of home-based businesses in Lindon. (From a Nov 10 story about Lindon's $10k grant to PG/Lindon Chamber of Commerce for a website.) My best to you, Tracie. Remember, if you have the desire you are called to the work. Harlow S. Clark (And just as I typed my name, I hear Donna calling me, sharply, in her turn-off-the-computer-and-come-to-bed voice, but it's not because Clayne Robison is singing too loud, Matthew is calling us from his bedroom and when I go in there he's barfing on the carpet. I grab a pink tub (from one of Grandma's horse-spittle stays) and catch what's left. When I come downstairs to empty it, I remember the example of the fireworks--which I thought of as particularly appropriate to rural/suburban conflict then couldn't remember--"What took you so long?" Donna shouts when I go back upstairs. "Why'd you go downstairs anyway?" It occurs to me that anyone who's interested in Mormon Literary History at the turn of the century will find some interesting portraits here, like the guy who planned a massacre--no, If I write anything more I'll be here for hours chronicling all the fascinating details of peoples' lives I've learned in the last 4 1/2 years, and I'll have to sign my post again because my signature will be halfway around the world. HSC ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 13 Nov 2000 09:46:44 -0700 Chris Grant wrote: >My perusal of the archives has taught me that Eric Samuelsen >and I disagree on just about everything, but I enjoyed his book >_Singled Out_ because the lives portrayed seemed real to me, >neither unrealistically perfect nor unrealistically tragic nor >unrealistically bizarre. I consider this a very great compliment. "I think you're nuts, but I like your book." Wow. That's wonderful. Disagree away! Anyone who buys,and better yet, likes my book is a friend for life! Heck, I disagree with me most of the time! Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People Date: 13 Nov 2000 11:35:28 -0700 >>> Jacob@Proffitt.com 11/10/00 12:20PM >>> > >If >your idealogy cannot conceive of people who do everything they are supposed >to for all the right reasons then your idealogy is flawed. Fortunately, >such people are often blissfully unaware that they don't exist. Mostly >because they don't tend to read much fiction... Ah, so they're still not quite perfect. MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People (A Reading List) Date: 13 Nov 2000 09:50:52 -0500 Renatorigo, Pound is an American and so is T.S. Eliot, and both are good to read, though Pound can be kind of maddening. One must know a great deal about European culture and mythology and language to begin to understand his work. His essays, however, are great fun. You might also try HD or William Carlos Williams. Both are poets. If you are reading Hemingway and enjoying it, I would say to also read Sherwood Anderson and Steven Crane. Some of the most interesting American writing right now is by our Native (Indian) Peoples. I would try to read anything by N. Scott Momaday or Leslie Marmon Silko or James Welch. America's best writer at the moment is, in my opinion, Cormac McCarthy. You should be able to find a novel called ALL THE PRETTY HORSES. It is wonderful. The writing is brilliant, very much like Hemingway, and he shows real people struggling. It is also very funny at times. You might also want to read the Canadian writers Alice Munro or Margaret Atwood. Also the Irish writer, William Trevor. Good luck in your reading. Have fun. [Todd Robert Petersen] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Allred Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 13 Nov 2000 14:24:59 -0700 I'm afraid I disagree strenuously with one comment Chris Bigelow made in his assessment of the Writers' Conference. Chris stated: "I don't think [Darius] Gray addressed a useful topic." There are a number of ways in which to respond: the trendy inclusionary "I Want to Teach the World To Sing" Coke Commercial response; the "a presentation on ''Extending the Depth and Breadth of our Culture' in a conference subtitled 'Extending the Culture' is Certainly Apropos response; and several others possible responses. But I wish to respond as a writer, a very selfish what's-in-it-for-me-as-a-writer response. Chris made a number of excellent suggestions and criticisms of the conference. I read his take on Darius' panel as an extension of his theme that the conference should be a nuts-and-bolts writers' panel, not a pleasant afternoon for literary spectators. In that context, it might be easy to view Margaret's and Darius' presentation, while pleasant, informative, and thought-provoking, as taking up space on a limited program schedule that might more profitably be used for writing workshops or agent/editor interviews or manuscript critiques...something more practical for serious writers. And it is this that I must strenuously disagree. There are many things a writer has to keep in mind while plying his craft: plot, characterization, manuscript formatting, editors and publishers, agents, etc. etc. Chris mentioned most if not all of these in his assessment. But there is one critical, one crucial element he did not. Audience. And that English-language Mormon Literature audience has an ever-growing segment of non-Wasatch Front, non-white readership. Unless a writer is dead set on reaching an ever-shrinking piece of the pie, it would behoove that writer to learn how to reach them. At the very least learn to not turn them away. (And these arguments are even stronger for those wishing to write Mormon Literature for the national market.) Margaret's and Darius' presentation was two-fold. Margaret gave several general points to consider, along several different cultural groups (and included a personal way a writer could "do research" to learn how to be more inclusionary one one's writing). Darius gave a presentation on one concrete example of a simple elementary cultural assumption, one not intended to give offense, many if not most Mormons share can not only be hurt-giving, but stands the very real probability (as Darius' scriptural scholarship attests) of being flat out ethnocentrically wrong. Unnecessarily wrong. Now. The genealogical portion of Darius' presentation didn't take all that much time. Twenty minutes, maybe? Thirty? I learned more in that twenty or thirty minutes as a writer (not to mention as a person) than I did during the rest of the conference, excellent as the other sessions were. I can't claim I've suddenly solved the problem of writing inclusionary Mormon Literature or other great feats of multicultural derring-do after attending that presentation. But I do have a much better insight, as a writer, into one segment of my audience that I didn't have before attending. And I do know that my approach to any writing project in which I might attempt dealing with Old or New Testament times is forever changed. For the better, I think. And as a writer, a very selfish what's-in-it-for-me writer, I find that "a useful topic." A useful topic indeed. Lee Lee Allred leea@sff.net www.leeallred.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 13 Nov 2000 08:52:39 -0700 I've been up to my hips for many years in the logistics and considerations surrounding high school plays, so if I might offer a little perspective: > From: Of Chris Grant > > A few thoughts on the "Godspell" controversy: > > (1) Richard Johnson suggested that students opposed to the > play simply not participate in it. Is it really that simple? > In my high school, all drama students (i.e., those in drama > classes or intending to letter in drama) were required to > participate in all plays (either as cast or crew). Of course. But any student objecting to a show on grounds of their individual ethic can certainly be excused, particularly if the parents also object. Happens all the time. I once had a family go ballistic because Joe Cable's shirt is off in "South Pacific". > (2) Even if there is no such requirement at Ogden High, > there are only so many plays a school can put on during the > year. A school that puts on a play that is too offensive for > a student to participate in has reduced the number of plays > that that student can participate in. The school limits the number of plays available to any given student with every decision it makes to produce or not produce a particular play. "I'm sorry -- there just aren't parts for everybody who auditioned" is a very familiar refrain. > (3) The _Deseret News_ story on the controversy suggests > that Ogden High students need to seek special permission *not* > to attend a school play. Given that level of endorsement of > its plays by the school, I can see why some students and > parents might not be satisfied with the "love it or leave it" > option. Again, sure, it happens all the time, and not a big deal. The school has an assembly where the entire student body is expected to attend the play, and just like with any other assembly, a student has to have special permission not to attend. > (4) Thom Duncan said that he thought the dissenting parents > were "hyper-spiritual". In 1994 President Hinckley wrote a > letter to Pioneer Theatre Company threatening to withdraw the > Church's grant to that company because of profanity in some of > their productions. I'm assuming Thom doesn't think President > Hinckley is hyper-spiritual, so I was wondering what he thought > the essential difference is between these parents' actions > this year and President Hinckley's actions in 1994. If Ogden > High were to put on the plays President Hinckley objected to, > could parents object to them without being hyper-spiritual? Apples and oranges. President Hinckley did an entirely appropriate thing: he informed the theatre's decision-makers that one of their major and very influential contributors didn't like some decisions they were making. We all make decisions where we spend our money based on how we feel about what is being done. That's very different from trying to keep others from producing or viewing something. If President Hinckley, who has the ultimate moral authority if anyone is going to object to a production, limits his response to a gentle reminder that the theatre is offending a major contributor, what makes anyone else think they should go further? Here IMO is a good example of a good example. -- Scott Tarbet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 13 Nov 2000 10:01:21 -0500 I very much enjoyed Chris Grant's post about Godspell. He really gets at the heart of some of these questions. I particularly liked his observations that it is not so easy for offended students to just bow out. In many cases, theater productions are mandatory for those taking the classes, even if it is tech work and the like. Also also think that his comparison to Hinckely a valuble line of thought. surely we must recognize that the prophet is in a different role as leader and that every public move he makes is one in which he more or less, "speaks for the Church." We as citizens do not always speak for the church, so we have a little more latitude. The danger is when people see the acts of individual church members in this light. Sometimes members actually INVITE the comparison of their actions and attitudes to those of the prophet, and there is a great danger in this. And regarding the comments on Duncan's thoughts on hyper-spirituality: I'm not sure that someone can be hyper-spiritual, but I am sure that people can promote their spirituality (at whatever level) in a rude and thoughtless way. In the same vein, I think that people can promote their free-thinking ideals in a rude and thoughtless way. To condemn a condemner doesn't seem to to much. I was just in Austin, TX and joined in the election protests on the Texas State Capitol (I won't say which side). There was no discussion going on, just hollering. No one was being convinced of anything. It felt good, and it felt like action, but it wasn't action. Not really. It was, in many ways, just yelling. Sort of like what we got here for a while on the Ogden issue. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 13 Nov 2000 11:59:15 -0700 >>> annette@lyfe.com 11/09/00 01:39PM >>> > >A few months ago, I recall a lively debate over whether the play _Bash_ (was >that the title?) should have been written with the national audience in mind >when it portayed Mormons so badly (homophobia, the same issue). That if it >was written for us, as a wakeup call, that would be one thing, but to >portray us to the masses, a group that may stereotype us, was something else >entirely. But no one has said a word about that regarding _Dancing Naked_. >Is that because we all assumed it was written for us? Well, it wasn't. Does >that change how we view it? The protagonist in _Dancing Naked_, Terry, was an inactive Mormon,but that's about the extent of the Mormon factor in the book. Terry ishomophobic, but he learned his attitudes from his father. The Church is notportrayed as the source of those attitudes. MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 13 Nov 2000 12:00:21 -0700 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > [MOD: I'd like to add that anyone who didn't attend the conference but might > be interested in attending future ones should perhaps provide input also to > let us know what would make you more or less interested in attending.] > > To those who attended the writers conference, thank you. We'd like to > know what you thought of it so we can put on a better one next time. If > you would respond to the following 15 questions, it would be very > helpful: > > 1. Was the conference worth attending? Why? Absolutely! I thoroughly enjoyed putting names from the AML list with faces. It was fun to meet Rachel Nunes. And the offerings of the conference were so specific for Mormon writers, with such excellent, knowledgeable presenters, that it should've inspired everyone who attended. > > > 2. What would you change to make it more valuable to you? > The biggest problem for me was the snafu with the date. It was too bad that the Nov. 11 date got publicized before the location was secured, which ultimately meant that we didn't get to hear Richard Dutcher (I was truly excited to meet him!) and Kristen Randall, who I haven't seen in twenty years. > > 3. Was the admittance fee fair, or do you think it should be different? > I think the fee was EXTRAORDINARY! For what was offered, every participant should've felt that they got the deal of a lifetime. Most conferences are priced in the $300. range--because big-name writers are paid to come. We actually had bit-name writers who came without pay. Only in a Mormon society! > > 4. Do you prefer having a catered lunch, or would you rather fend for > yourself? Was the lunch priced fairly? Lunch was fine, and a good place for socializing. I frankly enjoyed the conversation better than the food. > > > 5. Which sessions were most valuable to you? > I was a presenter, and only heard part of Dean Hughes' presentation, but I thought it wonderful. He is always so unpretentious and helpful. > > 6. How could any sessions you attended have been improved? > > 7. What are your feelings about using UVSC as the location? Were the > facilities acceptable? Where would you prefer the conference be held? > More signs were needed to direct us to the Student Center. I guess I'd prefer BYU's facilities, but I had no strong objections. > > 8. Do you like the time of year the conference is held (November), or > would you prefer another? Summer time would perhaps make it more a possibility for those who don't live in the area. > > > 9. Was the length of the conference about right, or would you prefer a > longer conference (evening sessions, more than one day)? > About right. > > 10. How did you like the guests of honor: Margaret Young, Darius Gray, > Dean Hughes? > I ALWAYS enjoy Dean Hughes. I won't analyze myself, but will say something about Darius Gray, because I was SO PROUD of him. He resisted this symposium, thinking this was "my" crowd--writerly types. Darius does not consider himself a writer. (He's a wonderful writer despite what he thinks, but he doesn't consider himself one.) I was sorry that Chris Bigelow didn't get much from Darius's plenary talk. I thought it was excellent, and want to contextualize it for the AML listers. Here is a man who has been a Mormon for 35 years, who was called a "nigger" the first time he attended the Church he had joined, who deals almost daily with calls from around the country from Blacks who are struggling to keep their faith in a religion which seems, at times, not to want them. Darius presented Biblical genealogy, listing Blacks in the Bible (or those who very well could've been Black) and suggesting that the Savior's appearance wasn't Swedish. He came with no intent to give literary helps, but with a strong desire, sprung of his own life and of his stewardship as the president of the Genesis Group, to help white Mormons expand their paradigm--which is exactly what the title of our session suggested we do. I was extremely impressed with his preparation. I am always impressed by his knowledge. If you take the implications of what Darius said, the challenge to Mormon writers was very clear: That we must do better than we have done in presenting literature which embraces and extends to other cultures, which now make up so much of our Church. Does it matter that Mormon writers change their paradigm of Biblical genealogy? Does it matter that they get to know the connections between Ham, Cush, and the land of Jerusalem? I think it does. One of Darius's aims in our writing partnership has been to help me see further than I have been trained to see into Black culture. Last week, he brought me two videos about the artistic depiction of Blacks over the past century. We watched white actors apply blackface to do minstrel acts, which eventually gave way to black actors blackening their own faces and caricaturing themselves. This has been essential knowledge, because Elijah Abel (one of our main characters) performed minstrel acts in Ogden during the 1870's. As I came to understand the history of these shows, I also pictured Elijah--this remarkable convert to Mormonism, holder of the priesthood, and friend of Joseph Smith--painting his face to essentially mock himself and his people. It is a disquieting and poignant image. For me to better understand what Elijah Abel went through in his life, it mattered that I understand the history of the kind of show he performed. For us to better understand our own Christian heritage, I think it vital that we understand the undyed ROOTS of our faith. I was so pleased that Darius accepted the invitation to speak, and hope that most who heard him heard what he was actually saying, and understood that the implications are far-reaching for any of us who are working to expand the borders of Mormon literature. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 13 Nov 2000 12:54:32 -0700 (MST) > > All in all, it looks to me like another big helping of Mormon-American > processed cheese. I don't know about you, but this ain't my culture. > > Chris Bigelow> Well - it's mine. I may not like all of it (I personally don't care for kitsch), but it must sell - real people do buy these things and they enjoy them and apparently get something out of them that I don't. If it helps them be better people, or have more fulfilled lives, I say more power to them The stuff Deseret book sells in the way of Christmas kitsch may not be to my liking, but it is to my mother and father and plenty of other real people whose judgement I respect and whi I know are critical thinkers. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Real People Date: 13 Nov 2000 13:01:10 -0700 On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:57:02 -0700, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I think that might be going too far to the other extreme. I'd be happy >with a family that does most of them well, but falls short in one or two >areas which end up causing conflict. A family that does all the right things has plenty of conflict already. Messing up on one or two areas is more likely to reduce conflict if anything. Kids just don't want to do the right thing all the time so when parents *do* you will have a lot of struggle already. Jacob - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 13 Nov 2000 13:07:34 -0700 (MST) > > > Apparently autoerotic > >asphyxiation does happen, but is it realism or something else > >that has induced Signature Books to publish two novels on the > >subject in the last 5 years? > > Apparently, it happens enough in our culture for President Hinckeley to > mention during the last Priesthood Conference. > Thom Ivan replies - Pres. Hinckley was talking about something totally different - it was a fad when I was in Jr high and high school and has apaprently popped up again in Utah - it may eventually give into the autoerotic asphyxiation if done long enough, but the point when I was in high school was merely to choke the person until they passed out - while I never had it doen to me, I was around dozens of men in the locker room who were doing it and had it done and not one of them had an erotic experience - they just though it was "cool" to black out. That is the practice Pres. Hinckley was talking about. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 13 Nov 2000 13:42:16 -0700 On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:25:52 -0700, Thom Duncan wrote: >What books like Dancing Naked does is help others see what I and others have >had to learn the hard way--that we, as Mormons, are, sad to say, no better >or worse than any other group of people our size. I know we'd like to think >so, but it doesn't seem to be that way. > >When it comes to human behavior, literally anything you can imagine humans >doing has been done, and Mormons have done it as much, if not more in some >cases, as other people. Thom, your data is as statistically invalid as anybody else's. I see no support for your statements that Mormons are as wicked or degraded as any other group our size. Frankly, to believe such a statement, you have to believe that the gospel has *no* elevating influence. That is just wrong. Individual Mormons may well be as degraded as any other individuals in the world, but I believe that the gospel influence, while not absolute, is certainly efficacious enough to give us an aggregate edge. True, you can't judge an individual by the group. Just because I am Mormon doesn't mean I am by definition more moral than any other individual. But claiming that Mormons as a group are as degraded as any other group is saying that the true gospel of Christ has no meaning in the lives of members of the Church ostensibly lead by Christ. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 13 Nov 2000 13:42:54 -0700 Thom Duncan wrote: [quoting me] >>I don't know people who exhibit the level of perfection Michael >>discusses, but I do know people that are doing pretty well in >>many of the areas he discusses. I certainly know more of them >>than I do people who are meth addicts or have committed suicide. > >You may be right. You may also not [know?] your friends as well >as you [think you?] do. I agree that no mortal (including novelists and playwrights) has perfect understanding of the life of another. On the other hand, unless I'm trapped within "Weekend at Bernie's", the number of my friends that have committed suicide does not exceed the number I think are dead. [...] >What books like Dancing Naked does is help others see what I and >others have had to learn the hard way--that we, as Mormons, are, >sad to say, no better or worse than any other group of people >our size. How could a work of fiction (as opposed to a sociological study) possibly provide evidence that Mormons are, in reality, identical to all other equally-sized groups? [...] >A friend who teaches abnormal psychology at BYU stood on my >front porch in North Orem once and told me, "Thom, you would be >shocked if I told you how many people, many within walking >distance, many whom you know from this ward, are involved in the >most disgusting aspects of human behavior: spouse abuse, child >sexual molestation. If your friend really knows of people in your ward who are involved in child sexual molestation, why is he gossiping to you about it instead of turning them in? [quoting me again] >>I know stake presidents have a lot of problems to deal >>with, but how many of them have Relief Society sisters >>defecating on their front porch, as happens in Levi Peterson's >>"The Christianizing of Coburn Heights"? > >My first Bishop had an affair with the RS president, stole all >the tithing money in our ward, and ran off with her. When your RS president defecates on your stake president's front porch, let me know. [...] >>Apparently autoerotic asphyxiation does happen, but is it >>realism or something else that has induced Signature Books to >>publish two novels on the subject in the last 5 years? > >Apparently, it happens enough in our culture for President >Hinckeley to mention during the last Priesthood Conference. The pass-out game President Hinckley referred to (a) is usually not auto, (b) is not erotic, and, unlike autoerotic asphyxiation, (c) is based on restricting blood flow to the brain. See, e.g., "http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/libstory_state?dn00&0009290211". [...] >>In Kathryn Kidd's _The Alphabet Year_, there's a three-year-old >>boy who lives in Salt Lake City and is almost always buck naked >>when he's in public. When he visits a fire station, he "burn[s] >>his private parts by sliding down the fireman's pole naked". >>Realistic? I don't think so. > >Because you've never seen it? Maybe I've lived a secluded life. Everyone who knows of a three- year-old who, who while visiting a fire station, "burned his private parts by sliding down a fireman's pole naked", raise your hand. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire Date: 13 Nov 2000 19:49:07 -0200 D. Michael Martindale said: > They're really saying that? Better tell all those General Authorities to stop cracking jokes then (including President Hinckley). I don=B4t attend conferences in English....The Authorities in Brazil have a diferent behavior....I supose... I=B4ll will try to listen to the general conference on the net to try to change my mind about this... Thanks Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People (A Reading List) Date: 13 Nov 2000 15:04:12 -0700 And I would add John Updike, John Irving, Philip Roth. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 13 Nov 2000 15:22:07 -0700 Responding to Lee Allred: You've grasped something something kind of ethereal about the Young/Gray plenary session that I still don't really get. I wonder if the Young/Gray presentation would have been more suited to the AML's annual academic conference. I guess I could just think of a lot of things I'd rather have heard them talk about, such as how two people collaborate to write a book and maybe more about the publishing process. Certainly some of the presentation (especially Margaret's part) was useful and interesting for a writers' conference---I just thought it didn't send me away satisfied as an ending for a writers' conference. Here's hoping I don't meet Margaret Young in person for a few more weeks, until my gooey-in-the-middle e-mails have blown over . . . Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 13 Nov 2000 15:46:48 -0700 > Have you seen the latest issue of the Latter-Day Harvest catalog? I have not seen it, but I will add this.....Latter-Day Harvest has been the *only* place I have been able to track down Benson Parkinson's book _Set Apart_ and they have been very helpful in finding other hard to find elsewhere Mormon literature. Hopefully this helps balance out their need to stay afloat in the bookselling business by selling "kitsch" - that seemingly is a big seller this time of year. ;) Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Allred Subject: [AML] US NEWS & WORLD REPORT Cover Story on Mormonism Date: 13 Nov 2000 15:54:05 -0700 The November 13th issue of US NEWS & WORLD REPORT features a cover story, "The Mormon Moment" by Jeffery L. Sheler, on Mormonism--particularly on the Church's rate of growth. One of the most fascinating elements of the article is that Sheler draws heavily on Harold Bloom's 1992 book, THE AMERICAN RELIGION. (A Bloom quote is used for one of the photo blurbs, in fact.) The article is even-handed (quite so when compared to the hit-pieces TIME occasionally runs) and goes into substantial detail about the struggles a the Utah Church that suddenly finds itself a worldwide multicultural entity is currently going through. For the amount of depth a newsmagazine is limited to, the extent of the article is impressive. When was the last time you read a cogent summary of the pros and cons of the dreaded Correlation issue in a national weekly? There's a sidebar article covering missionaries tracting in Japan, photos of the MTC and Wasatch-area Church member activities, including a baptism and a setting apart for a Church calling. There's also an underlying mild paranoia (present, too, in Bloom's book) of the unstoppable juggernaut of the Invasion of the Baptizing Pod People. One of my favorite quotes is the shocked realization that "[i]n North America, Mormons already outnumber Presbyterians and Episcopalians combined." And of course, there's the inevitable muttering about how rich the Mormon Church--those bounders won't turn over their financial records!--secretly is. All in all, however, the attempt at a fair, neutral article is quite commendable. There were some shots taken, some detractors quoted without refutation, but there were some positive observations and several zingy quotes from Church authorities and members in there, too. Lee Lee Allred leea@sff.net www.leeallred.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 13 Nov 2000 17:37:01 -0700 I would be interested to know how Margaret's student perceives the "demonized stereotypes" in _Dancing Naked_. If the student is referring to Terry's father, I don't think he's stereotyped, although he may be sketched to the limit :). Still, I have heard people talk in the same way and seen them behave similarly too, sometimes maybe worse. I think we may not want to recognize or like these characters because they're too close to home. Similarly, a reading-group friend threw _Salt Dancers_ in the fireplace because she "hated" it--translate that into too close to home, I think. I think that it's more important to get past our visceral reactions to the characters and find the meaning in _Dancing Naked_, which is that our feelings, responses, character, and ways of being in the world are forged in our backgrounds: family, childhood, maybe our chromosomes. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Availability of Student Films (was: Writers' Conference Feedback) Date: 13 Nov 2000 16:40:55 -0700 I appreciate Gae Lyn talking about the student films. I agree that both War Play and The Last Good War are outstanding films. Based on the response at AML, I've encouraged the College here to put both those films on sale through the BYU Performing Arts Catalogue. Right now, they're only available for sale through the filmmakers themselves. If anyone's interested, The Last Good War was made by Ryan Little, and he can be contacted at (801) 371-0563, or via the Theatre and Media Arts Department at BYU. Brian Lefler directed War Play (which I think is a wonderful film to show children about violence--my kids absolutely loved it, and got the message very clearly indeed). Brian can be reached at (801) 756-5824. Both films will be, I think, more widely available, but it may be a few weeks. The Last Good War is set during WWII. An American soldier is captured by a German soldier, and the film explores their relationship, and Christian values in a war setting. War Play is about a boy who plays war games with a friend of his. Their game gets way out of hand, with devastating results. They're both exceptionally well made, and both run about 15 minutes. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire Date: 13 Nov 2000 19:54:42 -0600 At 00:59 11-11-00 -0700, you wrote: >renatorigo wrote: > > > We musn=B4t laugh at church, conferences...etc > >They're really saying that? Better tell all those General Authorities to >stop cracking jokes then (including President Hinckley). > >-- >D. Michael Martindale >dmichael@wwno.com Oops. I guess that means that all of us in the Celestial Room at thetemple dedication a couple of months ago are doomed because we laughed atPresident Hinckley's opening joke? -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 13 Nov 2000 22:38:04 -0500 I've only jumped into this thread, but there was an extended piece in the NYT about a court case in Prove, Utah involving a local video outlet owner being sued for renting porn videos. During the court hearing, so the report told, the man's attorney happened to look out the window where the Marriott Hotel caught his eye. He called a recess, went over to the hotel and got a tally on how many porn films the hotel made available in its rooms, and how many had been viewed. The number far surpassed what the video store owner rented. He was also able to discover how many people in Utah County subscribed to porn channels on cable. Again, the numbers soared over what the video outlet ever rented. When he reported all this, it took the jury 15 minutes to throw the case out. But here's the interesting part. It was found that the amount of porn consumed in Utah County per capita exceeds the national average. So hows that for life among the Mormons? Merlyn Clarke - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: [AML] Dickens (was: Real People) Date: 13 Nov 2000 21:10:22 -0500 I'm interested in your comment about Charles Dickens. According to the 'class' I'm taking (on B&N.com), Dickens was extremely popular at the time of his writing. His work was serialized in newspapers and reached masses of people. His "Christmas Carol" is considered to have started-or vastly helped along, at any rate-a social revolution in England. Is it that he wasn't considered a "great" writer by the intellectual community? And I loved the Poisonwood Bible. Would it surprise you to know that many of my LDS friends won't touch it with a ten-foot pole? Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- What about our western writer (Arizona), Barbara Kingsolver and POISONWOOD BIBLE? Willa Cather was good and popular at the same time. Toni Morrison? So was Charles Dickens (yet no one knew he was good until 100 years after he died). Cormac McCarthy, and Larry McMurtry? I know there are many others. John Gardner. But you are right about one thing, there is a lot of trash out there that gets sold and read! Marilyn Brown ---------- > Who are the best american writers nowadays? What about > the classics? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People Date: 14 Nov 2000 09:20:07 -0200 > thanks evebody for the tips about good american writers... I got about 25 names to try... About 1 year of reading... :-)) Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Albert Wang Subject: Re: [AML] Real People (Reading List) Date: 14 Nov 2000 05:10:11 -0800 (PST) Hi there, the best american writers living out there now are: 1) Thomas Pynchon 2) Don Delillo 3) Cormac McCarthy 4) Robert Coover 5) perhaps Carole Maso??? sincerely, Alfie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Orson Scott CARD Speech Date: 14 Nov 2000 03:28:31 -0700 Monday morning, Nov 13, Orson Scott Card spoke at BYU on the topic of "Scripture and Faith." He discussed a number of ideas that fit well into many of our discussions on the list. Here is a summary of things he said: Reality (including history) is a collection of events that we know happened. But the minute we start assigning causality to real events, we are inventing history, because we can never know for sure why something happened. We can never even understand our own motives for why we do things: we are constantly revising why we did this or that in our minds. Fiction is a collection of fabricated events, but in fiction we can explore why things happen, why people do things. In fiction, motives are known and absolute: the author tells us what the character's motive is, or if he doesn't, we are meant to assume the most obvious motive under the circumstances. This is why stories are so treasured. It's the only time we know for sure why someone did something, and we're hungry for that. This is in fact the primary purpose for fiction: stories of why people do what they do. There are two basic kinds of scripture. One is sayings of a prophet, like the Doctrine and Covenants or the Koran. The kind we're interested in today is the other kind: collections of stories. Those that accept a particular set of scriptures as true usually want it to be final in both senses: the facts are correct and the motives are accurately known. In Christianity, these people tend to be the ones who consider the canon close, the ones who read the Bible literally. Mormons are not one of these people. They reject the finality of the scriptures because they believe in continuous revelation. The canon is always subject to revision. This is one reason the rest of Christianity despises us. Our open canon is both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that we get to know more things than those who accept a closed canon. The curse is that what we know is never final. Contrary to what most members of the church think, this makes us not the church with all the answers, but the church that knows there are more questions to ask. But the revisions do not come from scholars, and those that attempt to set themselves up in this way we need to ignore. Only prophets have that perogative. In the meantime, it is our obligation to read and understand the scriptures ourselves. Many things in the scriptures become confusing when we try to take an absolutist or literalist approach. We need to remember that the scriptures are a filtering of truth through human beings. Much effort has been made to try to reconcile what Alma said about the hereafter or what Abinadi said about the nature of God, and what we understand today. It's all a waste of time. Alma simply didn't have as much information as we do, and tried to explain the afterlife as best he could with the information he had. The message Abinadi was called and inspired to deliver was repentance and forsaking the wicked ways of the king and the lawyers. Expounding on the nature of the Godhead was not his primary calling. In addition, his sermon was not written down personally. It was passed on to us by Alma: it was already filtered by a second human being before it ever got recorded. The story of Abraham and Sarah is probably fairly accurate: it's an old piece of writing that fits well into the culture of the time period it claims for itself. On the other hand, the story of Joseph is more of a "just-so" story about how storing grain started in Egypt. But Egyptians had been storing grain long before Joseph ever showed up. This doesn't mean that the story of Joseph is fabricated, but it does probably mean that our version is a much later version than the original which has been embellished upon. Because LDS scripture is not final, Mormons have a hunger for fiction as a means to explore answers we realize we don't have yet. Mormons are less in need of faith-affirming literature than other denominations. We want something more than piety--we want truth. Those who join the church in most cases are giving up their culture, and often friends or family, in exchange for the truth. The rest of the human race is just not as committed to truth as Mormons. The premier storytelling medium in America today is movies. Television to a lesser degree, but television doesn't have the prestige of movies. When's the last time you said you were transformed by a television show? Our culture today is greatly influenced by the movies and TV shows that have come before. "Philadelphia Story" is a beloved classic film, even by Mormons. Yet it is "deeply, deeply evil" [exact quote]. Today we live in the culture that that film promoted. In the film, the father gives a speech where he tells his daughter that she is responsible for his adultery because she was so cold and judgmental to him. Adultery is forgiven without repentance. Those in the film who uphold rules of morality are despised and depicted as buffoons. Those who make up their own rules are free spirits that we are encouraged to admire. We live in that world today. The movie did its work because we didn't see its true message. It was disguised behind good writing and charming characters played by beloved actors. The film seemed to have a positive Christian message: forgive others. But the strongest Christian message in the New Testament is repentance, and then forgiveness. When the rules that sustain civilization are broken, oddly enough, anarchy begins to reign. When rules are destroyed, rule-breakers begin to rule. And now we have Clinton as our leader. The best picture last year was "American Beauty." It has the same message as "Philadelphia Story," but makes no attempt to hide it this time. It has no redeeming social value. It is evil from beginning to end. This is how far we have come. You cannot tell a story without conveying a moral message. It comes through in every word you write. The least effective messages are those you try to tell. The minutue the reader notices a message, it stops influencing him. The message of "Philadelphia Story" is pervasive in our society these days. This is why I am much more interested in stories Mormons write to the world than to each other, although those are valuable too. In every word, without any attempt to do so, Mormons will convey their moral values to the world in the stories they tell. Discourse can be valuable, but when you're looking for a transformative experience emotionally, even spiritually, fiction does it better than discourse. This is why Christ's parables have survived centuries of interpretation with their messages basically intact, while his discourses have suffered all sorts of revisionism. Mormon artists have a hard time being noticed by the world if their art isn't dark. Who is the most prominent LDS filmmaker in the world today? Neil LaBute, because his work is dark. That's how Mormons can get noticed by the world. We in Mormon culture need to value our storytellers more. I knew all along that for me to have a strong following in the church, I would first have to be successful outside of the church, because we don't value our storytellers. Most of the people paying attention to our storytellers are doing so to find fault with them. One of the best LDS writers, Brian Evanson, was rejected by BYU, because even though he wrote moral literature, it was also dark. Some moron of a student complained and made a lot of trouble, and no one came to Brian's defense. He left BYU and is now working somewhere where he doesn't have to put up with that kind of garbage. He could transform the world with his talent, and we rejected him. Those of us who do value our storytellers need to speak up as loudly as the critics. If Brian had received support, he would probably still be at BYU. [Interesting bits and pieces in the Q&A session...] What is the status of the Ender's Game movie? It has no star-level role for adults, so it won't attract the biggest actors. It requires good performances from a number of young actors, but by the time the good young actors like Haley Joel Osment, and Jake Lloyd too now, become stars, they are too old to play Ender. So the child actors will all have to be unknowns. Ender's Game will be a "green screen" movie (i.e. lots of special effects), and the type of directors who can draw out good performances in young actors--or can even make a poor performance look good--are completely put off by that kind of movie: they won't even look at the script. They think of science fiction in terms of "Starship Trooper" type films. Still, Card is optimistic. It would just take one breakthrough: one studio who believes in it, or one great director, and everything else will fall into place. Meanwhile, Card is working on his own answer to the phenomenon started by "God's Army." His production company will be producing "My One and Only," a comedy about Mormon girls who are on a quest to find their "one and only" eternal companion. At first he wrote the script as a straight comedy. But with "God's Army" he came to realize that it needed to be more: it needed to address deeper issues within the framework of a comedy. "Matrix" is probably the best science fiction film ever made. The text is not the story. The text is the tool that helps the author and the reader collaborate together to create the story. The author cannot be responsible for interpretations (he called them "misreadings") by the reader. Science fiction magazine editors are desparate for good stories by new authors. They print a lot of mediocre stuff because they have to fill their magazines with something. If you haven't had success selling to an SF magazine, it's probably for one of two reasons: you haven't found "your editor" yet, or you just need to improve your writing. How well a writer handles 3rd person limited POV is the critical difference between those that get published and those that don't. Card has a new website called "The Ornery American" (www.ornery.com), which publishes essays by people who make no claim to being intellectuals or some kind of elite: just ordinary folk stubborn enough to believe that they are the people who made America great. He also plans on spinning off part of his Hatrack website (www.hatrack.com) into an online magazine. Hatrack Publishing was doing well when they had a distributor who knew what it was doing. That distributor went out of business when a disgruntled employee filed a lawsuit against it. Their current distributor doesn't know what it's doing, as can be evidenced by the fact that Hatrack books are not found in stores. Card still wants to keep the publishing company going, but the distribution problem needs to be resolved. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Kristallnacht Date: 14 Nov 2000 07:40:47 -0800 (PST) Harlow wrote: "When I started reading Dean Hughes's _A Rumor of War_ I noticed it begins on Kristallnacht, in the morning, watching a synagogue burn. I’d still be reading it but someone put a hold on it at the library." Twas I! Ha ha! Just picked it up yesterday! ==== Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 14 Nov 2000 09:27:04 -0700 Responding to Morgan Adair: <<>> I don't think it's that simple. While the novel doesn't confront or portray Mormonism head on much, enough is going on just under the surface--and occasionally within plain sight--that Mormonism is definitely tied up somehow in the father's attitudes. But it's probably a chicken-or-t he-egg proposition--did the religious culture contribute to the father's attitude, or did the father warp the concept of Mormon patriarchy to fit his own needs for power and control? Probably a bit of both. At the same time, I hold that the Mormon elements could have been left out and replaced by most other organized religions or even just American culture in general. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 14 Nov 2000 10:48:41 -0700 On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:59:15AM -0700, Morgan Adair wrote: > The protagonist in _Dancing Naked_, Terry, was an inactive Mormon, > but that's about the extent of the Mormon factor in the book. Terry is > homophobic, but he learned his attitudes from his father. The Church is not > portrayed as the source of those attitudes. Van Wagoner does not imply that the LDS church created Terry's homophobia, but I don't see how one could read _Dancing Naked_ without feeling the pervasive Mormon culture in the text. Consider how Van Wagoner portrays Terry's father. Terry's father belongs to the LDS church and estranges his only son rather than associate with a son who left the church. Because Terry represents something non-Mormon, Terry's father cannot accept or even express love for Terry. Terry's inability to accept his own son, Blake, doesn't stem from Mormon issues, but much of Terry's personal conflicts come from living a lifestyle contrary to the Mormon lifestyle that Terry's father would accept. You must also consider Van Wagoner's decision to set _Dancing Naked_ in Salt Lake City. If the setting were not important, he could as easily have left Terry teaching school at some school in New England where Terry got his masters and Ph.D. Instead, Van Wagoner moves Terry to Salt Lake because Terry must battle not only his father's homophobic heritage, but also the cultural heritage of Terry's Mormon background. -- Terry Jeffress - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 14 Nov 2000 11:02:51 -0700 Scott Tarbet writes: [...] >But any student objecting to a show on grounds of their >individual ethic can certainly be excused, particularly if >the parents also object. And a student's nonparticipation never has any impact on the student's grade or the earning of a letter by that student? It's good to hear that things have apparently changed from the way they were in my high school days. [...] >The school limits the number of plays available to any given >student with every decision it makes to produce or not >produce a particular play. True, but that doesn't mean that it's unreasonable for students to object to each further limitation. [...] >The school has an assembly where the entire student body is >expected to attend the play, and just like with any other >assembly, a student has to have special permission not to >attend. The fact that the play is presented at a mandatory assembly that requires special permission to miss establishes a clear endorsement of the play by the school. It is reasonable for students and parents to wish to participate in deciding what things their school clearly endorses. [...] >President Hinckley did an entirely appropriate thing: he >informed the theatre's decision-makers that one of their >major and very influential contributors didn't like some >decisions they were making. Parents have an investment in their school, even if they don't have $15,000 to hold over decision-makers' heads. >That's very different from trying to keep others from producing >or viewing something. President Hinckley was trying to keep Pioneer Theatre Company from producing plays he thought were objectionable. Some students and parents tried to keep Ogden High from producing a play they thought was objectionable. Now that the play is not being officially produced by Ogden High, are the parents still objecting? [...] >If President Hinckley, who has the ultimate moral authority if >anyone is going to object to a production, limits his response >to a gentle reminder The _Deseret News_ characterized this gentle reminder as a threat. >what makes anyone else think they should go further? People without financial leverage often have to seek some other sort of leverage, e.g., by making their objections in public. This appears to be what President Hinckley did about the "Up in Smoke" tour stop in Salt Lake City. I, personally, am glad President Hinckley didn't let gentleness prevent him from using words like "lewd", "evil", "loathsome", "foul", "sleaze", "ugl[y]", and "deprav[ed]" in this context. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Which Virginia Sorensen First? Date: 14 Nov 2000 11:07:23 -0700 I have three Virginia Sorensen books in my personal library, and I'd like to put one on my priority shelf. If I read only one Sorensen in my life, which of the following three is most essential? Sorensen, Where Nothing Is Long Ago Sorensen, A Little Lower Than the Angels Sorensen, Virginia, The Evening and the Morning Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 14 Nov 2000 13:12:25 -0700 (MST) Thom Duncan said: > [...] > >A friend who teaches abnormal psychology at BYU stood on my > >front porch in North Orem once and told me, "Thom, you would be > >shocked if I told you how many people, many within walking > >distance, many whom you know from this ward, are involved in the > >most disgusting aspects of human behavior: spouse abuse, child > >sexual molestation. > Unfortunately - anecdotal evidence from someone who has only really had contact with the "abnormal" and does not spend his time with or studying or being involved with the "normal" is not very convincing. Those who work with the "abnormal" often become convinced everyone is abnormal because that is all they work with. I know policeman who are convinced nearly everyone is a criminal - yet statistics don't really back that up - but all they do is deal with criminals so that's all they see and all they see in others - regardless of the truth. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 14 Nov 2000 13:19:48 -0700 On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:38:04 -0500, Merlyn J Clarke wrote: > But here's the interesting part. It was found that the amount of porn >consumed in Utah County per capita exceeds the national average. > So hows that for life among the Mormons? Sounds like a lot of visitors with too much time on their hands and not enough to do... I'd be interested in how those numbers were put together. Did they only compare the porn available and compare Cable to Cable and rentals to rentals? Or did they include all the other perversions available in other states, but not in Utah? You need to factor in the difference in laws in Utah from other counties if you want an accurate picture of the consumption of porn. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] YOUNG, GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (SL Tribune review) Date: 15 Nov 2000 05:20:40 JST One More River to Cross is packaged too well. Nov. 12, 2000. BY MARTIN NAPARSTECK SPECIAL TO THE TRIBUNE One More River to Cross By Margaret Blair Young and Darius Aidan Gray; Bookcraft; $19.95 Perhaps we should not judge a book by its cover, but the packaging of One More River to Cross, by Margaret Blair Young and Darius Aidan Gray makes you rethink that advice. The cover, actually, is fine. It shows a photo of a young black woman from the 19th century, and says the novel is the first in a trilogy, Standing on the Promise, "of historical novels about black Mormon pioneers." It's the rest of the packaging that's the problem. In the foreword, Heber Wolsey, former managing director of public communications for the LDS Church, tells of the joy he, a white man, and his friend, Darius Aidan Gray, a black man, felt in 1978 when the church announced it was opening the priesthood to blacks. That's followed by a preface by Gray that amounts to a testimonial of his satisfaction as a black man with the church. And that's followed by an authors' note in which Gray and Young explain how they worked together on the novel, although not how they came to work together on it, plus an extensive bibliography and notes at the end of each chapter indicating the sources for the fictional incidents just related. None of this is unprecedented. Bibliographies, source notes, all of it have previously appeared in novels. Yet, they are more typically the trappings of nonfiction, and they coat One More River to Cross, not with a sense that it is "true" but rather with a sense that the reader can't be trusted to believe it. Combine that with the chapter titles ("Higher Ground," "Didn't My Lord Deliver Daniel," "The Family of God"), all from the Bible or the Book of Mormon or a hymn or some other religious source, and with the religious epithets at the opening of each chapter (example: "I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, Ecclesiastes 8:12"), and the reader is left with the impression that this novel is less about creating a fictional world and more about getting the reader to accept an official church version of history (the publishing company is owned by the church). That is unfortunate, partly because such didacticism never produces good literature, but more because hidden beneath that packaging is a fine novel. Young and Gray tell a story of real-life people, mostly of Elijah Abel, an escaped slave from Maryland who converts to become a Latter-day Saint, and of Jane Manning, a free black from Connecticut. The two meet and marry in Nauvoo, Il. Church founder Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are secondary characters. Abel became an undertaker, largely because he was a fine woodworker and could build good coffins. The topic is gutsy, and at times the writing is rich in convincing detail and an original voice ("Death had spooked Elijah since he was six years old and stuck in Massa's parlor keeping watch over a life-gone girl, her skin pale as birch bark, her mouth hung open. And oh, how he remembered his first experience as an undertaker: building his first coffin and burying his mama somewhere in the Lion's Paw"). It's tempting to speculate that the story's concept originated with Gray and the writing, when it's good (it is uneven) is the work of Young, who is the author of a good collection of short stories, Love Chains. but that wouldn't reflect the way a collaboration usually works, an experience that is typically so intertwined that even the writers are seldom certain who did what, who revised what, who suggested what. Ernest Hemingway once called Norman Mailer's The Naked and the Dead poor cheese pretentiously wrapped. On More River to Cross is good cheese didactically wrapped. ------------ Martin Naparsteck reviews books from and about the West for The Tribune. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] CARD, _Sarah_ (SL Tribune) Date: 15 Nov 2000 05:22:24 JST Genre-Hopping Card Creates 'Sarah' Out of Love, Not Money Sunday, November 12, 2000 BY MELINDA MILLER THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE Orson Scott Card doesn't see a lot of crossover among the audiences for his different book genres. Readers of his best-selling science-fiction books, most notably Ender's Game, may pick up his modern-day ghost story novels, such as Lost Boys or Enchantment, but his latest book is a whole different story. Sarah is the first of three planned novels on "Women of Genesis." In it, Card takes the historical biblical woman who was married to Abraham and turns her into a complex, caring, faithful and sometimes confused human being. The author says he created her for himself, not for commercial success. "My science-fiction audience isn't going to go 'Cool! A novel about an old woman from the Bible!' " Card said in an interview from his North Carolina home. "I can't live on these out-of-genre books; I do them out of love. . . . I have to maintain my other writing [to pay the bills]." His other writing includes Shadow of the Hegemon, the sequel to Ender's Shadow, coming Jan. 2. But for now, Sarah is on his mind, and he will be in Utah for three book signings this week. The biblical series, with books coming on Rebekah (wife of Isaac) and Rachel and Leah (wives of Jacob), was Card's idea, which was picked up by a publisher now owned by Deseret Book (Sarah is published on the Shadow Mountain imprint). "I think of this as not something radical, but as going back to the roots of my career," Card said. "When I was at BYU, I wrote plays -- I adapted scripture into drama. Later I wrote for Living Scriptures in Ogden, and did hundreds of audio plays adapting history and the New Testament. The only difference is, with science fiction I have to make up the culture that comes before the story." (Card grew up in California, went on his LDS Church mission to Brazil and received degrees from Brigham Young University and the University of Utah.) And, although his science-fiction characters often deal with issues of morality and belief, they are decidedly nondenominational. Card sees that same quality in much of the Old Testament. "With Sarah, I could deal with deep ethical and moral dilemmas without taking a position on things like, say, transubstantiation. The theology is very simple. . . . The events take place before the divisions that separate many world religions," Card said. He also doesn't find anything unusual about his decision to focus on Old Testament women rather than the prophets or kings. "The Old Testament is extraordinarily rich with women who are every bit as fascinating as the men," Card said. "The core stories have women in very central roles." Besides, personally he has always preferred the company of women to men. "I'm lost in locker-room conversation. Macho guys, I just don't get it," he said, laughing. "Let's just say I'm probably faking it more [in print] writing about a guy who gets into a fight, since I have never been in a fight in my life, than I am writing about a deep conversation involving women, because I have had lots of those." Though the voices of the characters may have come easily, Card says the research preparing for the book did not. "That was harder than with many of the things I have done," he said. "I was trying to play it absolutely straight, but we have only one source about these people, the Bible." To flesh out his characters, he turned to science -- archaeology -- to learn how people lived in the centuries before Jesus, what they ate and wore, how they worked. He hasn't traveled to the Middle East -- and doesn't plan to go -- and says he wouldn't even want to "time travel" to talk to the living versions of his characters. "I'm a fiction writer, and if I knew them, I would be bound by my obligation to them then," Card said. "I'd really much rather go into the future and see how my great-grandchildren turned out." Go Box: Author Orson Scott Card will be signing Sarah: Women of Genesis and other books at Brigham Young University, Provo, and two Deseret Book locations this week: Card will sign books Monday beginning at noon at the BYU campus bookstore. He will then go to Deseret Book at the University Mall store, 1229 S. State St., Orem, Monday from 7 to 8:30 p.m. On Tuesday, he will be at the Cottonwood Mall Deseret Book, 4835 S. Highland Drive, Salt Lake City, from 7 to 9 p.m. On his Web site, www.hatrack.com, readers can find more information about Card, including his rules for book signings -- he will try to sign whatever books you bring as long as he wrote them; don't bring him any gifts; and if your first name has an unusual spelling, print it out ahead of time for him -- plus information about his upcoming book and movie projects, and "Uncle Orson's Christmas Present for 2000," a play adapted from Dickens' A Christmas Carol that can be downloaded free for readings with your friends. Orson Scott Cardn Busy Visit to Utah Author Orson Scott Card will be signing Sarah: Women of Genesis and other books at Brigham Young University, Provo, and two Deseret Book locations this week: Card will sign books Monday beginning at noon at the BYU campus bookstore. He will then go to Deseret Book at the University Mall store, 1229 S. State St., Orem, Monday from 7 to 8:30 p.m. On Tuesday, he will be at the Cottonwood Mall Deseret Book, 4835 S. Highland Drive, Salt Lake City, from 7 to 9 p.m. On his Web site, www.hatrack.com, readers can find more information about Card, including his rules for book signings -- he will try to sign whatever books you bring as long as he wrote them; don't bring him any gifts; and if your first name has an unusual spelling, print it out ahead of time for him -- plus information about his upcoming book and movie projects, and "Uncle Orson's Christmas Present for 2000," a play adapted from Dickens' A Christmas Carol that can be downloaded free for readings with your friends. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 14 Nov 2000 13:31:08 -0700 I was unable to attend the conference as I had to work. I would have had to work on November 11th as well so either date in November would not have been viable for me. I shall fill out the questionnaire as it pertains to one who did not attend. > [MOD: I'd like to add that anyone who didn't attend the conference but might > be interested in attending future ones should perhaps provide input also to > let us know what would make you more or less interested in attending.] 1. Was the conference worth attending? Why? Not applicable to me. > 2. What would you change to make it more valuable to you? Attending would make it more valuable to me over this year. :) > 3. Was the admittance fee fair, or do you think it should be different? I cannot recall what the fee was, but from what I have read from those who did attend it looks to be fair, especially for what was offered. > 4. Do you prefer having a catered lunch, or would you rather fend for >yourself? Was the lunch priced fairly? I think a catered lunch is a very good idea, allowing everyone the chance to stay together and share ideas, conversations and get to know each other a bit better. I have found these unscripted gatherings over food to be very beneficial at other conferences. > 5. Which sessions were most valuable to you? N/A > 6. How could any sessions you attended have been improved? Mostly, by my point of view, by my attendance. ;) {Written tongue in cheek} > 7. What are your feelings about using UVSC as the location? Were the > facilities acceptable? Where would you prefer the conference be held? Park City is always a lovely spot......although not alway logistically as easy for all to get to. Perhaps something in the southern end of Salt Lake, although I am sure that BYU and UVSC offer better facilities for workshops, etc than can be found in Draper, but I may be wrong. > 8. Do you like the time of year the conference is held (November), or > would you prefer another? I would prefer the summertime. I work in the ski industry for my bread and butter right now and November through April is not the best for me. > 9. Was the length of the conference about right, or would you prefer a > longer conference (evening sessions, more than one day)? I think more than one day would be very valuable. > 10. How did you like the guests of honor: Margaret Young, Darius Gray, > Dean Hughes? I would have loved to have seen them. > 11. Did you attend any of the performance sessions (BYU student films, > "I Am Jane" performance, literature readings)? Did you enjoy them? Would > you like to see other types of performance sessions? I think seeing the process behind what it takes to put the performance together and how to write to that could be very beneficial. > 12. If you were to design the schedule for next year, what are some > sessions you would want to include? > 13. What guests would you like to see? I echo Chris Bigelow, I would like to see Orson Scott Card, Richard Dutcher and Anne Perry, although with a national agent, editor. > 14. What made you decide to attend the conference this year? N/A > 15. Any other comments? I really like Chris Bigelow's idea of a perhaps a similar format such as Writers at Work. Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Linda ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 13 Nov 2000 18:04:21 -0700 Okay, Linda. Read you book. Enjoyed it. Now I'm horribly curious about which chapter you mentioned writing first. I'm guessing it's after Alyssa leaves home, but I'd like to know for sure. Could you clue in those of us who have read it? Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] Re: US NEWS & WORLD REPORT Cover Story on Mormonism Date: 14 Nov 2000 12:45:16 -0800 What bothered me about this report was that twice we were called "The Church of Latter-day Saints." It says that on the front cover: "Salt Lake Temple of the Church of Latter-day Saints." It says it in a large, highlighted font at the beginning of the article: "The Church of Latter-day Saints grows by leaps and bounds." -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Renato Rigo" Subject: [AML] The Best American Writers Date: 14 Nov 2000 18:41:40 -0200 Here is the list : 1) Saul Bellow 2) Issac Singer 3) Philip Roth (The second in the list) 4) Barbara Kingsolver 5) Willa Cather 6) Toni Morrison 7) Charles Dickens (very known in Brazil) 8) Cormac Mc Carthy (The champion of the list) 9) Larry Mc Murtry 10) John Gardner 11) Ezra Pound ( very known in Brazil - a classic) 12) T.S Eliot (very known in Brazil - a classic) 13) HD (What=B4s HD?) 14) Willian Carlos Willians 15)Sherwood Anderson 16) Steven Crane 17) N Scott Monaday 18) Leslie Marmon Silko 19) James Welch 20) Alice Munro (A canadian) 21) Margareth Atwood (Another canadian) 22) Willian Trevor (An Irish) 23) Thomas Pynchon 24) Don Dellilo 25) Robert Coover 26) Carole Maso 27) John Updike I got surprised that I don=B4t know most of the names of this list. I can say I=B4m a brazilian that reads more than the average and discovered I have a lot to know about american literature... I=B4m sure it would be a good business to publish these authors in Portuguese (my mother language) and Spanish (Rest of Latin america mother language). Can you imagime this market? Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire Date: 14 Nov 2000 13:50:44 MST Ronn Blankenship: --- Oops. I guess that means that all of us in the Celestial Room at the temple dedication a couple of months ago are doomed because we laughed at President Hinckley's opening joke? --- You didn't hear the ominous threat of thunder rumbling in the distance? --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 14 Nov 2000 14:05:46 MST Chris Grant: --- Maybe I've lived a secluded life. Everyone who knows of a three- year-old who, who while visiting a fire station, "burned his private parts by sliding down a fireman's pole naked", raise your hand. --- While we're voting for realism, let's indicate how many seculuded recluses have ever seen a fireman's pole in a fire station. In Salt Lake City. Frequented by naked three-year-olds who have unsupervised access to sliding down poles, or what have you. Unlikely, I'd say. Good candidate for an X-Files episode, perhaps. But "Real Life"?--I don't think so. --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Albert Wang Subject: Re: [AML] Real People (A Reading List) Date: 14 Nov 2000 14:02:21 -0800 (PST) I would not include John Irving on that list. Overrated with a style which is rather distasteful and unappealingly dull. --- Christopher Bigelow wrote: > And I would add John Updike, John Irving, Philip > Roth. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 14 Nov 2000 15:00:19 -0700 Merlyn Clarke wrote: > I've only jumped into this thread, but there was an extended piece in the > NYT about a court case in Prove, Utah involving a local video outlet owner > being sued for renting porn videos. During the court hearing, so the > report told, the man's attorney happened to look out the window where the > Marriott Hotel caught his eye. He called a recess, went over to the hotel Is there a possiblity that the references for this article could be provided so that interested parties could research this for themselves? [MOD: Merlyn or anyone else: If you can find a URL link to this article, please feel free to post it. However, the article itself is not something we would be able to post over the List--both because it's off-topic and for copyright reasons.] > But here's the interesting part. It was found that the amount of porn > consumed in Utah County per capita exceeds the national average. > So hows that for life among the Mormons? Indeed having a wild time in Utah County and may account for the allegedly high birthrate in Utah County - who knows. ;) Seriously, although there is a high concentration of "Mormons" in Utah County not everyone is a Mormon and not all those who stay in hotels in Utah County are Mormons and not every Mormon in Utah County is subscribing to porn either. However, I cherish no illusions at all that pornography is not a problem in this haven of Mormondom otherwise President Hinckley probably would not mention it as often as he has lately. However the phrase "it was found" needs some substantiation for me. I should like to actually see the study that provided this information that Utah County's porn consumption exceeds thaand how "it was found." Just me being curious - remember there are lies, "darn" lies and statistics. How does all this fit with Mormon Literature? I think that if indeed we are honestly attempting to portray us as "real people with real struggles" factual information is helpful. It may very well be that the above assertion is true. Utah County is a hotbed of porn consumers. It certainly has been made much easier to access it through the internet and I am quite certain that many people have sucumbed and struggle with it. I think this is much more real and widespread than defecating RS Presidents despoiling their Stake President's doorsteps. I feel there are real problems that can be dealt with and should be dealt with without having to be extremists. I feel it is important and some may disagree with me on this, but I like to base my stories on factual evidence. The NYT (which I take to mean New York Times) article could be valuable in helping us to write about real life and real people, but is distracting if just overblown. Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] Dickens (was: Real People) Date: 14 Nov 2000 15:04:03 -0700 > And I loved the Poisonwood Bible. Would it surprise you to know that many > of my LDS friends won't touch it with a ten-foot pole? > > Tracie Laulusa It would surprise me indeed. We are reading it right now for our Relief Society bookgroup and the feedback about it has been positive. Not one disparaging remark for it yet. It came to us highly recommended from a member of our Stake RS Presidency. I am certainly enjoying it. Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Allred Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 14 Nov 2000 15:32:29 -0700 Chris Bigelow wrote: >>You've grasped something something kind of ethereal about the Young/Gray >>plenary session that I still don't really get. Chris, I just realized reading the rest of this particular post that we might have two different perspectives in looking at the past conference. I don't know your background on the subject, so I can't speak about that. I'm quite active in the science fiction convention "con circuit." I've attended in six or so writers' conferences/conventions this year, about eight last year, and so forth. I've been to more panels on plot mechanics and submission mechanics and such than I could shake a stick at, so I guess what I'm looking for now are panels that are more abstract or inspirational (as pertaning to writing) or, to expand your term, are more etherally tangential to the process of writing. But that's just me. I'm not trying to claim a jaded worldliness here--just that after attending the same panel a few times, there's a diminishing rate of return on what one gets out of it. But there are returns, even so. I quite enjoyed the mix of panels the recent conference offered. I picked up a couple neat tricks in the Characterization panel John Bennion ran, for example. And panels with editors and publishers are always informative. But the panels etherally-connected to writing are usually the ones I think about long after the convention is over. Margaret's and Daruis' presentation was one such panel. I do understand your desire to concentrate on writing specifics and practical panels at the Mormon Writers' Conference. It is a one-of-a-kind writing conference of limited resources with unique areas only it can cover. And for many attendees, too, it might be "the only game in town" for any sort of a writers' converence. The event suggestions you made all have great merit. I do think, howeverh, a broader mix is more neccessary than it might appear at first and that there is room enough for such a mix to be offer. Lee - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 14 Nov 2000 15:41:58 -0700 I think I misspoke. I didn't want to give the impression that the Gospel has no effect on members of the Church but that it doesn't have as great an effect as we would hope. Virtually everything that plagues the larger society also plagues us, though not always in the same degree. We have divorces, we commit adultery, most at levels that mirror the average of the rest of society. We seem to have a higher amount of child sexual abuse in this State (not necessarily among Mormons, though) than other states. Maybe it would be better to say that we are "as good" as the best of society. Sometimes better, sometimes a little worse. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Orson Scott CARD Speech Date: 14 Nov 2000 16:26:29 -0700 > The best picture last >year was "American Beauty." It has the same message as "Philadelphia >Story," but makes no attempt to hide it this time. It has no redeeming >social value. It is evil from beginning to end. This is how far we have >come. Apparently, Scott didn't see the same movie I did. He makes the same mistake in condemning "American Beauty" as evil as do those who say that "Death of a Salesman" has no redeeming value because it's a tragedy that ends in the suicide. In both works of art, it's between the lines where the real message lies. It's what you talk about on the way home from the theatre. "Amercian Beauty" show us what's wrong with our society but doesn't lionize it, as Card seems to be implying (or D. Mike inferred). To be a totally evil film, the main character in American Beauty would have to NOT die and his wife would NOT regret her affair. The movie is about as conservative in family values as you could ask for. Only we see the flip side, the results of going against traditional family values. The characters end up suffering for their mistakes, as our religion tells us will happen to all unrepentant people. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (SL Tribune Date: 14 Nov 2000 16:55:09 -0700 I swear, I used the "cheese" imagery about Deseret Book before I read the Naparsteck review. . . . [see his last paragraph below]. Chris Bigelow <<>> - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 14 Nov 2000 16:47:55 -0700 >It was found that the amount of porn >consumed in Utah County per capita exceeds the national >average. I'd really like to see the research on this. I live in Utah County, and if someone were to ask me where one should go to rent a pornographic movie, or buy a pornographic magazine, I would have absolutely no idea what to tell them. I quite literally don't have any idea where in town such items are found. And I'm from a small town in Indiana, very Bible Belt and conservative, and I probably would be able to tell someone where in that town such materials were found. I remember the case; it wasn't in Provo, but in American Fork, and they didn't see the Marriott from the courtroom, I don't imagine, since you can't see the Marriott from AF. I even wrote a play about the case. As I recall, the offending video store won the case but lost the war--the owner was driven out of business by the protesters. And copious tears were shed by all. . . . Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (SL Tribune Date: 14 Nov 2000 16:31:40 -0800 At 05:20 AM 11/15/2000 +0900, you wrote: >One More River to Cross is packaged too well. >Nov. 12, 2000. > BY MARTIN NAPARSTECK >SPECIAL TO THE TRIBUNE > >One More River to Cross > >By Margaret Blair Young and Darius >Aidan Gray; Bookcraft; $19.95 >Combine that with the chapter titles ("Higher Ground," "Didn't My Lord >Deliver Daniel," "The Family of God"), all from the Bible or the Book of >Mormon or a hymn or some other religious source, and with the religious >epithets at the opening of each chapter (example: "I know that it shall be >well with them that fear God, Ecclesiastes 8:12"), and the reader is left >with the impression that this novel is less about creating a fictional world >and more about getting the reader to accept an official church version of >history (the publishing company is owned by the church). I think this entirely misses the point. The inclusion of the "epithets" (a curious word, eh?), naming the chapters after often non-LDS hymns, etc., gave me the feeling that I was part of an experience not unique to the LDS church, but to society as a whole during that period. To say that this book promotes the "official church version" of the story just boggles me. When did the Church ever say that Elijah Abel was ordained by JS, but that the ordination was taken away by others who felt it wasn't PC? --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com [MOD: I'm going to chip in my two bits here and save a post, since List volume is running heavy. What I understood Naparsteck to say--not entirely clearly--was that the packaging of Young and Gray's book was unfortunate, because it made it *look* like it was an "official"-type correlated Church history version, when in fact that wasn't the case. One can dispute his take on the packaging--I can't, of course, because I haven't seen the book--but I don't think he's saying that the book's *contents* are sanitized.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 14 Nov 2000 19:42:55 -0700 I wasn't able to attend the conference because I had just been gone from home the weekend before for the Utah Council of Teachers of English conference. Too many conferences are held in the fall to attend them all. Anyway, here's some feedback on some of the topics you asked about. > 2. What would you change to make it more valuable to you? > I saw a list of speakers and although they were great, I've heard many of them > numerous times and couldn't justify more money to hear the same topics I've > heard them speak about before. > > 4. Do you prefer having a catered lunch, or would you rather fend for > yourself? Fend for myself. > > 7. What are your feelings about using UVSC as the location? I don't mind > attending conferences generally at UVSC. It's nice not to have to always drive > to SLC. > 8. Do you like the time of year the conference is held (November), or > > would you prefer another? Spring or summer ususally works better for me. Too > many fall conferences with my teaching and other obligations. > 9. Was the length of the conference about right, or would you prefer a > > longer conference (evening sessions, more than one day)? One day, no > evenings. > > 12. If you were to design the schedule for next year, what are some > > sessions you would want to include? Teen markets and screenplays > > > 13. What guests would you like to see? > I'll agree--Richard Dutcher and Anne Perry > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 14 Nov 2000 23:20:58 -0700 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > You've grasped something something kind of ethereal about the Young/Gray plenary session that I still don't really get. I wonder if the Young/Gray presentation would have been more suited to the AML's annual academic conference. I guess I could just think of a lot of things I'd rather have heard them talk about, such as how two people collaborate to write a book and maybe more about the publishing process. Certainly some of the presentation (especially Margaret's part) was useful and interesting for a writers' conference---I just thought it didn't send me away satisfied as an ending for a writers' conference. As one of the insiders on the planning of the conference, let me say that we had all sorts of interesting ideas on sessions to include in the conference, but couldn't begin to fit them all in to one day. We had to pick and choose and get what we thought was a good mix for the varying types of people we expected to attend. Ending the conference with Young/Gray had everything to do with scheduling challenges and nothing to do with lining up a closing wallop to a writers conference. I can see your point that, as a WRITERS conference (as opposed to a LITERATURE conference), more about the craft of writing might have been a better ending. Perhaps Dean Hughes would have been the best closing speaker. But again, we barely managed to juggle the schedule into place as it was. On the other hand, considering the theme "Extending Our Culture," the Young/Gray session hit that issue square on, and closed the conference with a high-level, issues-oriented approach to the theme that I think was a good general closing, even though it may not have fit exactly what you wanted personally. (And besides, I sat next to you during that session, and you snoozed now and then. Maybe you just slept through the craft of writing stuff.) ;) -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 14 Nov 2000 23:41:11 -0700 Cathy Wilson wrote: > I think that it's more important to get past our visceral reactions to the > characters and find the meaning in _Dancing Naked_, which is that our > feelings, responses, character, and ways of being in the world are forged in > our backgrounds: family, childhood, maybe our chromosomes. This is an interesting philosophy on how to receive literature. I'm not sure I agree with it. Isn't the meaning of a work of fiction exactly how it makes you feel viscerally--your emotional reaction? Otherwise, didacticism would be a desired characteristic of fiction, not a disfavored one. Maybe someone will throw a book in the fireplace that hits too close to home, but the message likely seeps through some cognitive pore anyway and starts working on the reader at a subconscious level. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 14 Nov 2000 15:50:33 -0700 >>A friend who teaches abnormal psychology at BYU stood on my >>front porch in North Orem once and told me, "Thom, you would be >>shocked if I told you how many people, many within walking >>distance, many whom you know from this ward, are involved in the >>most disgusting aspects of human behavior: spouse abuse, child >>sexual molestation. > >If your friend really knows of people in your ward who are >involved in child sexual molestation, why is he gossiping to >you about it instead of turning them in? He wasn't gossiping. He gave no names. At the time, he was in the Bishopric and was indeed counseling many of these people. >>My first Bishop had an affair with the RS president, stole all >>the tithing money in our ward, and ran off with her. > >When your RS president defecates on your stake president's >front porch, let me know. So now it's a matter of degree? What about a RS president who went through the garbage of a fellow saint on Welfare to make sure she wasn't spending the Church's money on frivolaties? If you were trying to say that, just because you've never known a RS president who deficated on her Bishop's front porch, it therefore could never happen, I think you would be mistaken. In any event, the point Peterson was making was not the nature of the RS president's rebellion but that she rebelled authority. His particular spin on that is what makes it fictional. The fact that RS presidents have done similar things is what makes it real. >[...] >>>Apparently autoerotic asphyxiation does happen, but is it >>>realism or something else that has induced Signature Books to >>>publish two novels on the subject in the last 5 years? >> >>Apparently, it happens enough in our culture for President >>Hinckeley to mention during the last Priesthood Conference. It's certainly dramatic as far as literature goes. Maybe that's all the author's have in mind, nothing more. >>>In Kathryn Kidd's _The Alphabet Year_, there's a three-year-old >>>boy who lives in Salt Lake City and is almost always buck naked >>>when he's in public. When he visits a fire station, he "burn[s] >>>his private parts by sliding down the fireman's pole naked". >>>Realistic? I don't think so. >> >>Because you've never seen it? > >Maybe I've lived a secluded life. Everyone who knows of a three- >year-old who, who while visiting a fire station, "burned his >private parts by sliding down a fireman's pole naked", raise your >hand. That's why it's called fiction. A writer's exaggeration of reality to make a point. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 14 Nov 2000 21:46:56 -0700 Let's not shoot the messenger, just because we don't like the news or want to believe it. My friend did not pull these statistics out of a hat. He is, after all, a teacher of abnormal psychology, and has availability to numbers that you and I can only guess at. I can't really think of a way to tie this into Mormon literature, except to say this: We as a people share many of the hang-ups in more or less equal proportions with the larger society. When we can admit that, and write about those hang-ups in an honest way, the rest of the world will start to pay attention to us. If we persist as writers to make the experiences of the minority of Saints (in my opinion) as the norm, then we will fall on deaf ears to the larger world. Thom Duncan >-----Original Message----- >Unfortunately - anecdotal evidence from someone who has only >really had contact with the "abnormal" and does not spend his >time with or studying or being involved with the "normal" is not >very convincing. Those who work with the "abnormal" often >become convinced everyone is abnormal because that is all they >work with. I know policeman who are convinced nearly everyone >is a criminal - yet statistics don't really back that up - but all they >do is deal with criminals so that's all they see and all they see in >others - regardless of the truth. > >--Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (SL Tribune review) Date: 14 Nov 2000 23:58:55 -0700 > One More River to Cross is packaged too well. > Nov. 12, 2000. > BY MARTIN NAPARSTECK > SPECIAL TO THE TRIBUNE > That is unfortunate, partly because such didacticism never produces good > literature, but more because hidden beneath that packaging is a fine novel. > One More River to Cross is good cheese didactically wrapped. When I read this article in the newspaper, my first impression was, "Ah, Martin has learned a new word, and now he's showing it off." That new word would be "didacticism." He throws it around like he knows what it means, but his examples don't maintain the illusion. I haven't read _One More River to Cross_ all the way through yet, but I have read all the introductory stuff and the first chapter and a half. I don't know what Naparsteck is talking about. I didn't get any sense of didacticism or a big, hairy effort to convince anyone of anything. I just found interesting information about the authors and why they wrote the book. Extracting the chapter titles from scripture is a perfectly acceptable aesthetic decision to me, especially in a book about religious people. The information at the end of the chapters about the historical sources it was based on is an appreciated addition, and one I'd like to see in all historical fiction. An effort to convince us? All these things seemed to me like nothign more than two authors being considerate enough to include some additional interesting information. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 15 Nov 2000 00:43:31 -0700 I was at the writers' conference, and I'm so glad I went. I almost didn't make it. It was worth the time, worth schlepping the baby around...everything. Strangely, most of the people who have been chiming in are ones I didn't see there! But it's true, it was great to put faces to names. >1. Was the conference worth attending? Why? Well, I just *said* it was....Seriously--this is harder to answer than it looks, especially after midnight. The thing about this conference was that there were people at all stages of writing and being published, from the girl who sat next to me at lunch and was so excited at having just started trying to write, to those who are already successful in the market. And everywhere in between. It was very heartening. >2. What would you change to make it more valuable to you? Huh. I wished it could have been longer...more sessions. As it was, I missed out on several things I wanted to see, and I had to leave early and hated that necessity. >3. Was the admittance fee fair, or do you think it should be different? I don't know about fair. It was affordable to me. >4. Do you prefer having a catered lunch, or would you rather fend for >yourself? Was the lunch priced fairly? The lunch was one of the best parts, since everyone mingled and they let the unwashed masses (me) sit at a table with people like Rachel Nunes and Kenny Kemp, who is a very funny guy. >5. Which sessions were most valuable to you? The one about SF and the LDS market, of course, since that's what I write. That was really great, especially learning how Utah figures in the national market for SF. I can't find my notes now, drat, so what follows is hopelessly imprecise. Scott Parkin said that he'd talked to a bigwig from Del Rey (one of the biggest fantasy publishers around) and HE said that Utah was the third highest market in the US for speculative fiction, according to their data. Wow. >7. What are your feelings about using UVSC as the location? Were the >facilities acceptable? Where would you prefer the conference be held? UVSC itself isn't bad--that is, I don't mind driving down from Salt Lake. The campus was very confusing. And the directions and signs weren't really adequate. I'd prefer BYU but that's just because I'm more familiar with the facilities, even after the extensive remodeling. Also, the ballroom where the plenary sessions were held was nice, but the entrance was right at the front of where everyone was facing, and I arrived late and felt too conspicuous to enter for the opening session. > >8. Do you like the time of year the conference is held (November), or >would you prefer another? Doesn't matter to me, except that I do worry about storms since I have to travel down the valley to get there. > >9. Was the length of the conference about right, or would you prefer a >longer conference (evening sessions, more than one day)? I said I would prefer a longer conference simply because there was so much I wanted to do. In reality, the single day format was just about as much as I can fit into my schedule. > >10. How did you like the guests of honor: Margaret Young, Darius Gray, >Dean Hughes? I am really sorry that I didn't manage to stay around to hear Margaret Young and Darius Gray (though I did wait long enough for their book to show up on the sale table). Dean Hughes was wonderful. The thing I enjoyed most about all the sessions I attended was when the writers would speak about the creation of their books. I love hearing the stories behind the stories--and that is more educational than a lecture, too; hearing how someone resolved writer's block, or how an idea became a novel, shows me how I can do it myself, possibly. Or at least gives me an idea about a new way to approach my own problems. > >11. Did you attend any of the performance sessions (BYU student films, >"I Am Jane" performance, literature readings)? Did you enjoy them? Would >you like to see other types of performance sessions? >13. What guests would you like to see? Michael Collings. Somebody in the SF session cited his "Taliesin" series of poetry, and then this last issue of Irreantum had some of it in the essay he wrote...and it was just amazing. I've heard him speak before on fantasy; I'd like to hear him talk about other subjects. >15. Any other comments? One of the best things that came out of this conference was completely unexpected: while feeding baby Cordelia (sidebar: it's nice to go places where people associate that name with high culture and not with "Buffy") I noticed a woman who looked very familiar, and it turned out to be an old friend from Steven Walker's Christian Fantasy class who I hadn't seen in years. That just rounded out the day for me. I spent my entire book budget in one blow and still didn't get everything I wanted; I came home energized and ready to tackle this book that is having such trouble getting born. Wonderful, all around. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gideon Burton Subject: RE: [AML] Which Virginia Sorensen First? Date: 15 Nov 2000 10:08:26 -0700 1. Angels 2. Evening and Morning 3. Nothing Long Ago I think The Evening and the Morning is a better developed novel, more psychologically complex, but it does not engage Mormon culture and history the way that A Little Lower than the Angels does and isn't as accessible as Angels. They're all must-reads, though, for anyone serious about Mormon Literature. Sorensen has to be in the top 5 or 10 on anyone's list. Gideon Burton - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Kramer Subject: Re: [AML] Which Virginia Sorensen First? Date: 15 Nov 2000 10:58:11 -0700 Chris: I'd humbly suggest: Most essential: >Sorensen, A Little Lower Than the Angels Next: >Sorensen, Where Nothing Is Long Ago Last:>Sorensen, Virginia, The Evening and the Morning All three are very worth your time. Neal Kramer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] The Best American Writers Date: 15 Nov 2000 10:23:57 PST An interesting list. Where did it come from? I find it especiallyinteresting that so many of the authors are contemporary and "minority." I have other comments interspersed below... [MOD: My "take" was that this was Renato's compilation of titles that hadbeen suggested over the List, in response to his previous post--which Ithink had a definite slant toward modern/contemporary.] >Here is the list : > >1) Saul Bellow >2) Issac Singer >3) Philip Roth (The second in the list) >4) Barbara Kingsolver Kingsolver's good, but ranked #4?? >5) Willa Cather >6) Toni Morrison >7) Charles Dickens (very known in Brazil) Dickens is British, not American. He's also the ONLY author on this list who doesn't belong to the 20th century... >8) Cormac Mc Carthy (The champion of the list) >9) Larry Mc Murtry McMurtry's good, too. But #9?? In America, to my knowledge, he's somewhatpopular but not read a great deal in the universities. >10) John Gardner I love Gardner, but he's considered by many to be too archaic in his values (i.e. he was very anti-postmodernism). I'm also not sure how Gardner makes it onto the list and not his student, Raymond Carver... >11) Ezra Pound ( very known in Brazil - a classic) >12) T.S Eliot (very known in Brazil - a classic) >13) HD (What=B4s HD?) Hilda Doolittle was a poet during the early part of the 20thcentury--associated with the same era as Pound and Eliot. >14) Willian Carlos Willians >15)Sherwood Anderson VERY VERY VERY interesting (and perplexing) that Anderson makes the list,but not Hemingway or Faulkner... >16) Steven Crane >17) N Scott Monaday >18) Leslie Marmon Silko >19) James Welch Welch is good, too--but I'm not sure he's even read that much in NativeAmerican literature courses, let alone in broader American literaturecourrses, in America. >20) Alice Munro (A canadian) >21) Margareth Atwood (Another canadian) >22) Willian Trevor (An Irish) None of these three would likely appear on a list of great AMerican writers in America, because they aren't American...But I LOVE Alice Munro... >23) Thomas Pynchon >24) Don Dellilo >25) Robert Coover >26) Carole Maso I'm surprised Maso is big down there. She's practically unheard of, fromwhat I can surmise, up here. She's a very experimental writer, but nowhere near the stature of Coover, Dellilo, or Pynchon (in America). >27) John Updike Updike is VERY good, most of the time. He ought to be higher (usurpingwriters like Welch, Kingsolver, and McMurtry). Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile athttp://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 15 Nov 2000 11:31:34 -0700 >I feel it is important and some may disagree with me on this, but I like to >base my stories on factual evidence. The NYT (which I take to mean New York >Times) article could be valuable in helping us to write about real life and >real people, but is distracting if just overblown. Does it have to accurate to be "worthy" of a fiction writer's talents? Even if overblown, if one Temple Recommend holding member is involved in such things, wouldn't that be enough justification to base a story on? Regarding another thread and the incredulity that some have expressed about a naked young man sliding down a fireman's pole. It's rather a given to anyone who has made a study of human behavior that anything that can be imagined has been done by someone, somewhere. If a writer can think of it as a fictional device, then rest assured that someone else on this big planet has thought of the same thing and has done it. Reality? As the old saying goes, "Truth is stranger than fiction." Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 15 Nov 2000 19:19:19 GMT I come to this topic with a slightly different POV. For various reasons, I hear a lot of stories--both in my work, where people confide in me, and just as a person. Somehow people can peg a listener and they tell her their stories. I hear a lot. I am convinced that, at least among some LDS people I have met, there is much pornography consumption. Men say so, and their wives tell me their worries about their men and pornography. Parents tell me their kids are into it. KIDS tell me they're into it. (I must tell you that I keep stories confidential :) ). It's not hard to hypothesize why: we Mormons can be weird about sex. Thomas More in _The Care of the Soul_ suggests that sexuality is basic to our human nature, and if we deny that, it will find a way for expression. So those many Mormons who aren't married might find their way through pornography. What about the married people that get into it? One family therapist suggested that improper sex has more of a kick to it for people like us Mormons who have been warned against sex all their lives. Another take might be what I heard from a schoolteacher in a Mormon town: "It's for those of us who want to save our marriages. . . " He was suggesting that pornography was an outlet for people whose troubled marriages had stopped their sex lives (evidently a common Mormon problem, from some of the stories I sometimes hear). Cathy Gileadi Wilson This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Date: 15 Nov 2000 14:35:14 -0700 I was meditating. >>> "D. Michael Martindale" 11/14 11:20 PM >>> wrote: (And besides, I sat next to you during that session, and you snoozed now and then. Maybe you just slept through the craft of writing stuff.) ;) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Albert Wang Subject: [AML] Michel HOUELLEBECQ, _The Elementary Particles_ Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:26:36 -0800 (PST) Hi Everyone, I highly recommend reading the fairly recently released book The Elementary Particles by Michel Houellebecq. It is the most brilliant satire against the evils of the counterculture and the 60's mentality which has been revered in our society. The book is very moral and even burns down American commercialism. I love its controversial ideas and its celebration of humanism. It reminds me a lot like DH Lawrence with more learning and a scientific slant... sincerely, Alfie Wang - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: [AML] KINGSOLVER, _Poisonwood Bible_ (was: Dickens) Date: 15 Nov 2000 19:15:57 -0700 My LDS book club is also reading Poisonwood Bible right now. I read it in less than a week this summer and loved it! Fascinating history of a time and history I knew little about as I was only in grade school when the events in Africa took place. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: [AML] Bob HUGHES, _Behind Blue Eyes_ Date: 15 Nov 2000 03:43:12 MST Hi AML List, My latest book (_Behind Blue Eyes: Sonnets from the Vietnamese_, from Mark Standen Publishing) has been published recently here in Bangkok. It is a mixed format poetic memoir of Vietnam. If anyone is seriously interested in it, please contact me at bobernice@hotmail.com for more information. (Richard H. and Tom M. I already have your addresses.) regards, Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] The Best American Writers Date: 15 Nov 2000 19:45:22 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > An interesting list. Where did it come from? I find it especially > interesting that so many of the authors are contemporary and "minority."' > I don't think the list is supposed to in order of importance, just in order of how they were suggested on the list. Since I posted the first three authors, I must say they would not be on my own top 10 list of important 20th Century American authors except Bellow. Authors I would include based on importance are: William Faulkner, Thomas Pychon, e.e. cummings, John Irving, and a little know author F. Ross Lockridge Jr. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 15 Nov 2000 22:32:07 -0500 This seems to imply that being Mormon leads to hang-ups that make it more likely a person will indulge in pornography. From my experience (hearing the stories) that's not the case. It's just that we call it pornography and believe that it's evil. A large segment of society thinks it's perfectly normal. We have friends who have kids who have been introduced to pornography. It's been hard for them to get disentangled from. But always the kids have been introduced through web sites handed out by other kids at school. The difference between the Mormon kid and the friend is that the Mormon kid knows it's wrong, feels all the guilt and stuff that comes with that knowledge, and so forth. The friend, more often than not, has parents that don't care what there are doing, and chances are, if there is a father, he's doing it too. Pornography came up in a conversation with some close non-member friends of ours. She said, "Of course he looks at pornography. Everybody does. It's all over the locker room at work. It's just a normal guy thing." I, on the other hand, would be crushed to find out that my husband was involved in pornography and all that. I don't believe it's normal---well, I believe it's pretty far into that 'natural man' realm, unacceptable, and a grievous sin. Cathy said, "One family therapist suggested that improper sex has more of a kick to it for people like us Mormons who have been warned against sex all their lives." Would this fall into the "sinning against greater light and knowledge" realm? Sin does have a kick to it when someone's first involved. But I imagine that, even for Mormons (and any other person who would consider it a sin), the kick would wear off exposure by exposure. Isn't that suppose to be one of the hideous things about pornography, drugs, and other habit forming behaviors and substances? The kick just isn't there after awhile, and so the person is drug deeper and deeper into the filth trying to find satisfaction in something that isn't capable of satisfying. Obviously all this is generalizing. There are many good people who aren't members of the church that find pornography unacceptable. Having said all that, I agree that you can find within Mormon culture anything you can find outside of it. David and I always chuckle, though with a tinge of sadness, when people want to send their kids to BYU to clean them up. You can find anything in Provo you can find anywhere else in the world. Though I do think you have to actually want to find it. OSU is the major university here. The main street by campus is a building after building of bars, clubs, and adult-themed stores. The people who hang around the fringes of campus are some of the most bizarre looking people I have seen anywhere. The street the institute is located on is known for the parties thrown by the frat houses-the kind that make the papers because of the drunken brawls, burning furniture, and overturned cars. It is a totally different world than BYU-or most other private Christian schools for that matter. Bringing this back to a literature discussion-does it happening even once in Mormondom make it fair game for a story. Well, who am I to say what an author should or shouldn't write. However, neither should an author expect that a story dealing with some of these heavier issues will be welcomed with open arms. I listen to the women in RS. They don't want to read 'stuff like that'. Especially not from Mormon authors. A lot of them just never have to deal with those particular problems, and don't want to become involved vicariously. Others, who have had to deal with things of that nature really are looking for something spiritually uplifting, and they don't think they will find it in that kind of story. Those that might actually connect with it in some way will probably not find it. We have one small LDS bookstore. Only half of one wall is devoted to fiction. Most of that is the Rachel Nunes type of romance/adventure. Oh, it is way past my bedtime, and this has turned almost into an epic. So, wherever you are, goodnight. Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- I come to this topic with a slightly different POV. [large snip] Cathy Gileadi Wilson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: [AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People Date: 15 Nov 2000 19:50:10 -0600 I just came across a delicious, funny statement by Robert Hughes, the art and cultural critic and historian. He says: "There are some works of art that stupid people will never understand because they weren't made for stupid people." Just had to share it. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 15 Nov 2000 20:31:53 -0700 >>> tjeffress@altavista.net 11/14/00 10:48AM >>> > >You must also consider Van Wagoner's decision to set _Dancing Naked_ >in Salt Lake City. If the setting were not important, he could as >easily have left Terry teaching school at some school in New England >where Terry got his masters and Ph.D. Instead, Van Wagoner moves >Terry to Salt Lake because Terry must battle not only his father's >homophobic heritage, but also the cultural heritage of Terry's Mormon >background. Of course, it's also possible that Van Wagoner set the story in SLC andincluded a few Mormon references because he is familiar with Mormonculture and knows the names of streets and landmarks in SLC. Sometimesa cigar is just a cigar, and sometime a city is just a city. A book has to beset somewhere--does setting it in SLC mean that the book is really "about"Mormonism, in the absence of any other evidence? MBA (Morgan B. Adair) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Deseret Book Christmas Mailing Date: 15 Nov 2000 19:31:50 -0600 At 10:38 AM 11/13/00, you wrote: >Oops, Margaret, I must have hit SEND too soon. I meant to point out a few >things as EXCEPTIONS, certainly including your novel, and I'm sorry my >final summary "cheese" statement seemed to apply to everything mentioned. >(I think I tried to start out being positive but then got caught up in the >other side.) I agree with you, we are making progress, but the overall >tenor of the Deseret Book mailing still put me off more than made me >proud---your novel and a handful of other things excepted. :-) I'm also hoping, Chris, that my book was also among that handful of exceptions, since you mentioned it as well! Linda Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Linda ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 15 Nov 2000 20:03:56 -0600 >Okay, Linda. Read you book. Enjoyed it. Now I'm horribly curious about which >chapter you mentioned writing first. I'm guessing it's after Alyssa leaves >home, but I'd like to know for sure. Could you clue in those of us who have >read it? > >Annette Lyon Thank you for asking, Annette! I don't mind at all. It's Chapter 37, "The Stranger," which is very near the end. After I wrote it I had to find out who Alyssa was, where she was going, and where she came from. I wrote the next few chapters before I went back and wrote the beginning. I'd be happy to answer any other questions you (or any other list members) may have about it, if I can. I'm not spilling the plot of the sequel, though. Grin! I've been away from e-mail lately, trying to catch up now, and I should be able to answer. I'm working on getting the sequel manuscript completed by December (so it can be published by next summer.) So I know Richard will holler at me if he sees me posting here too much :-), but I'm glad to talk about it. Linda =========== Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 15 Nov 2000 22:37:01 -0500 Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: > I'd really like to see the research on this. I live in Utah County, and if > someone were to ask me where one should go to rent a pornographic movie, or > buy a pornographic magazine, I would have absolutely no idea what to tell > them. I quite literally don't have any idea where in town such items are > found. And I'm from a small town in Indiana, very Bible Belt and > conservative, and I probably would be able to tell someone where in that > town such materials were found. It's the internet and mail order, man. That's how it goes down in most places these days, particularly in middle America. It's also underground. You and I probably have no idea how to score a few hits of ecstacy or some roofies (rohypnol, the date rape drug), but they're real easy to get in any town in America. The interstates make it double easy. There are three in close proximity to Provo/Orem. Just because honest types don't know how to find this stuff doesn't mean that it's not available. Just to corroborate Thom's story with more hearsay, I have friends who are family counselors and therapists in Provo, and one who processes child abuse claims for Utah County. All have told me that I'd freak out if I knew the sheer numbers of grave problems, seriously grave problems. I have no trouble believing this because the scriptures have said it would go this way. I second what Thom said about being able as writers to write honestly about what's going on. All's not well in Zion, I'm afraid. Any writer who says that there is is lying. I don't think that this belief is a license to darkness. All is not well, but there is hope and there is repentance and there is goodness in people and there is beauty, but as 2 Nephi tells us, "it must needs be that there is an opposition in all things" or else "righteousness could not come to pass." If LDS writers don't recognize this opposition in their writing, we're cheating ourselves and our readers, and we're making it so that people who do recongize the oppositions will have nothing to do with our work. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. (was: Writers' Conference Feedback) Date: 15 Nov 2000 22:04:17 -0600 At 03:24 PM 11/13/00, you wrote: >I'm afraid I disagree strenuously with one comment Chris >Bigelow made in his assessment of the Writers' Conference. >Chris stated: "I don't think [Darius] Gray addressed a >useful topic." I'm afraid I also agree with Lee, although I wasn't in attendance. I'm sure I would have thoroughly enjoyed this presentation from the comments I've read about it, particularly because it addressed issues I am currently facing in my own writing. In defense of Chris, however, I've read a good chunk of his writing in our writers' group (Worldsmiths), and Chris does use integrated characters naturally, so maybe this is a non-issue for him. (? Just guessing here, Chris, trying to toss your gooey-centered post [your words] back in the oven a few minutes...) >Chris mentioned most if not all of these in his assessment. But >there is one critical, one crucial element he did not. > >Audience. > >And that English-language Mormon Literature audience has an >ever-growing segment of non-Wasatch Front, non-white >readership. Unless a writer is dead set on reaching an >ever-shrinking piece of the pie, it would behoove that >writer to learn how to reach them. At the very least learn >to not turn them away. (And these arguments are even >stronger for those wishing to write Mormon Literature for >the national market.) That's me, there--I'm one who wants to write for the national market. Yet here is my background: while I personally am 1/4 Hispanic myself, and grew up in California in a 50% Hispanic high school, my life experience has unfortunately had few Black people directly in it, due mainly to demographics. Black culture and history fascinates me. I'm honestly one of the least racially prejudiced people I know. But all told, I know two black families on an acquaintance level, and have occasional contact with maybe two others. I'm glad to live in Kansas City where, finally, the population is much more integrated than other places I've lived. And the one Black Mormon sister I did get to know passed away after only 18 months of Church membership. (She was wonderful, too, and I still miss her.) So my dilemma as a writer is, how do I create believable Black characters in my work, without sufficient personal experience? Where do I go to further my education, to learn the things life hasn't naturally given me the opportunity to know (yet?) I was about to write a post on this very topic when this thread started. I very much want to do this, and have tried. In my novel, _Prodigal Journey,_ two of the main supporting characters are Black. In the first drafts they weren't. But as I got to know them better, and see them in my mind's eye, I realized this was part of who they were, their identity. I was aware I couldn't just "use a crayon" and color them in, so to speak, by changing only their physical descriptions. There is so much depth of culture and ancestry and . . . everything, that these characters would know and have and feel, that would be different than my personal experience, that I don't know about them yet. I hope my portrayal is believable enough (and I did have help from my publisher to make the transition.) But it's an issue I'm still working on with the sequel. I don't know where to turn to glean more information and knowledge on what it is like, what it feels like, to be Black in America today (AND Mormon). I can imagine what it might mean in the future (since the series is set in the future,) but the future grows out of the present, and people in our day would be my characters' "ancestors." I need to know their history, so that their experience resonates truthfully with today's readers. I have a good imagination, but that doesn't make up for accurate information. I don't know how, or if I could approach the issue with the smattering of acquaintances I have. I would absolutely hate to offend anyone. How can I communicate my absolute respect while asking stupid questions? Things a child might ask--these are things I need to know. Details from how do you work with black hair, (you know, what types of products do you use, different from what I do) for instance, to the greater questions of what does your Black heritage mean to you. (And should you capitalize Black all the time, or not? is one way more PC than another, or more preferred? Oy.) I'm painfully reminded of the time I asked a kid in my 5th grade class how he cleaned his braces. I was just curious. I didn't have them. Braces are outside my personal range of experience. He said, "With a WaterPik, STUPID," and walked away in disgust. I'm just, well, not anxious to repeat that sort of experience on an adult level. Know what I mean? I think I managed okay in _Prodigal Journey,_ but anything I can still learn will make me more comfortable with what I'm trying to accomplish. Does anyone out there have any suggestions? Are there any black members out there who would be willing to talk to me? (Privately is fine, since it would be mostly off list-topic kinds of things.) I don't know, for example, which authors are best to read, which movies are best to watch, that can educate me. Any suggestions, anyone? Obviously I need to buy Margaret Young's novel and read that, which is on my list. But other than that. Who? Spike Lee? Sydney Poitier? _The Color Purple?_ . . . I figured out "Blazing Saddles" really wasn't useful at all :-) but "In the Heat of the Night" was a fine, fine movie. Who really is excellent at recreating the black experience? I'd also like to hear from anyone who's read my book on how I did with their characterization so far. And what exactly does the Genesis Project entail, Margaret? Do they have, say, a newsletter or anything? It sounds like something I should take hold of if I can. I'm not in Utah. Glad I'm not, to tell the truth, but I do miss out on some of these things, like this writers' conference. Well. Here goes. I've been meaning to send out a post that addresses this for a long time. Hope I haven't shoved my foot too deeply down my throat in admitting my ignorance. Linda ================= Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jana bouck remy" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 15 Nov 2000 20:46:45 -0800 As I've read through the posts on this topic I found myself agreeing with the side that said that Mormons have fewer of the hidden problems that Thom referred to. But as I reflected on the experience of my own family, I would have to disagree with myself. In recalling just two generations of my family I can cite incidences of infidelity, abortion, physical, sexual & emotional abuse, divorce, pornography addiction, excommunication of a Stake Pres., pregnancy outside of and/or prior to wedlock, "living together" before marriage, a missonary being sent home early, Word of Wisdom problems, etc. And I have to say that I come from a very active LDS family where almost all the men served missions, most marriages were in the temple, there are numerous bishops, high councilors, RS, YW and Primary presidents. I think that these problems are common in all Mormon families. But what is uncommon about members of the church is the way they are able to overcome their pasts. I've seen those who were abused as children becoming exemplary parents, those who divorced re-marrying happily, those who got pregnant outside of marriage repenting and raising their children to be strong members of the church, those who had sexual experience before marriage repenting and marrying in the temple, etc. My Mo Lit connection...after thinking about my family I realized that I've got some good stories to tell :) Guess I should start writing!! Jana Remy - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Kent Larsen : MN Mormon Books On Date: 16 Nov 2000 00:17:03 EST 14Nov00 A4 [From Mormon-News] Mormon Books On National Bestseller Lists NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- Its not unusual for books by or about Mormons to hit the bestseller lists in the U.S. Four such titles are currently on a number of bestseller lists, and several others have hit the lists during the past year. With this message, Mormon News is launching a periodic look at which titles by Mormons or about Mormons and their history are currently on various bestseller lists. Mormon News has covered several titles that hit the best seller lists during the past year, including President Gordon B. Hinckley's book, "Standing for Something," which is likely to be the best selling Mormon-related title of the year. But other titles have been on the list, including books by highly regarded LDS authors Clayton Christensen, Orson Scott Card, Anne Perry and Richard Paul Evans. The four current titles on bestseller lists are: Nothing Like it in the World, by Stephen Ambrose A history of the building of the transcontinental railroad in the US. Ambrose, a highly regarded historian, details the involvement of Mormons in building crucial portions of the road, including the driving of the "golden spike" in the heart of Mormon territory. Currently on the following bestseller lists: Wall Street Journal (Nov 10) Non-Fiction Hardcover #9 Publishers Weekly (Nov 8) Non-Fiction Hardcover #8 WordsWorth Independent Bookseller (Nov 7) Non-Fiction Hardcover #3 Barnes & Noble Top 100 #33 Knight Ridder Non-Fiction #6 BooksAMillion Non-Fiction Hardcover #12 Booksense (Nov 13) Non-Fiction Hardcover #1 New York Times (Nov 19) Non-Fiction Hardcover #6 USA Today (Nov 5) #56 See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684846098/mormonnews More about Stephen E. Ambrose's "Nothing Like It in the World: The Men Who Built the Transcontinental Railroad" at Amazon.com The Carousel, by Richard Paul Evans LDS author Evans writes about the love between a man and a woman, which is tested by the demands of family and work. Currently on the following bestseller lists: Publishers Weekly (Nov 8) Fiction Hardcover #13 Knight Ridder Fiction #10 BooksAMillion Fiction Hardcover #11 New York Times (Nov 19) Fiction Hardcover #11 USA Today (Nov 5) #70 See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684868911/mormonnews More about Richard Paul Evans' "The Carousel" at Amazon.com The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey This ten-year-old personal management classic is still selling strongly. Currently on the following bestseller lists: Barnes & Noble Top 100 #59 USA Today (Nov 5) #107 See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671708635/mormonnews More about Stephen R. Covey's "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" at Amazon.com Expecting Adam, by Martha Nibley Beck A lapsed Mormon tells of her decision to have a downs-syndrome child in the face of opposition from her academic peers. Currently on the following bestseller lists: New York Times (Nov 19) Non-Fiction Paperback #34 See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812929802/mormonnews More about Martha Nibley Beck's "Expecting Adam: A True Story of Birth, Rebirth, and Everyday Magic" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Orson Scott CARD Speech Date: 16 Nov 2000 01:28:59 -0700 Thom Duncan wrote: > "Amercian Beauty" > show us what's wrong with our society but doesn't lionize it, as Card seems > to be implying (or D. Mike inferred). I believe I reported accurately Card's intent. His exact quote was: "evil from beginning to end." Having never seen the film, I can't take a stand one way or the other on this. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Renato Rigo" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 08:21:40 -0200 > Wilhelm Reich is a German psychologist that wrote several books about sex (not porn books , of course)His most famous books are : The Function of the Orgasm. and The Sexual Revolution. One of his principles is The Sexual Economic Principle. This principle means that when we aren=B4t satisfied in a relationship with a person we usually look for other person outside. But, with Mormons, this isn=B4t possible because of the faith, then they try porn material to minimize the problem or the avoid the reality. What do people prefer to buy pron material instead of talking to their partners? The people usually acts guided by the pain or personal satisfaction (physhology teory). We look for things that will satisfy us or things that won=B4t cause us any kind of pain. When you have a wrong education about sex, talking about sex become a painful act that makes people to prefer to buy porn material and avoid the subject with the partner. God created us, and Gave us the possibily to Create other people physically. The way He chose to us to do this was a wonderful way. But the power of the man in destroying things transformed this way into a dirty thing.... In the 60=B4s we have a sexual revolution that made people abandon all the rules about sex. Imagine a can full of gas...=3D sexual repression. People were submited along the time (19th century and beginning of 20th century) One day the can exploded because of the pressure of the gas and the gas escaped fastly...=3D Sexual Revolution After escaping the gas have been reducing his velocity.. (Aids made the people more careful about sex, etc) I think the future is : the sex will finally become a natural thing , people will practice it with love and responsability...and we will talk more about it freely. And I don=B4t think this is a especifical problems of Mormons... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Kent Larsen : MN Mountain Meadows Date: 16 Nov 2000 00:17:03 EST Festival: Salt Lake Tribune 11Nov00 A4 [From Mormon-News] Mountain Meadows Massacre Documentary Featured At Film Festival ST GEORGE, UTAH -- A film festival held in St George, Utah Saturday featured a documentary on the Mountain Meadows Massacre made by a local film professor and relative of then LDS Church President Brigham Young. Eric Young, professor of film at Dixie College and a descendant of Brigham Young's brother, said he made the film with the aim of clearing Brigham Young of responsibility for the massacre, but was unable to find the evidence to do so. The documentary draws heavily from the classic 1950 book, "Mountain Meadows Massacre," by Mormon historian Juanita Brooks. Like the book, the film is sympathetic to John D. Lee, the Mormon pioneer convicted for the massacre and shot at the massacre's location, 20 years later. Lee is widely considered a scapegoat. Professor Young says he approached the subject after trying to date a descendant of Lee. "I went to pick her up for our first date," Young says, "and her mother told me that because of what [Brigham Young] did to her ancestor, John D. Lee, she wouldn't let me date her daughter." The documentary was one of 23 films shown as part of the festival. Source: Documentary on Massacre Headlines Eclipse Festival Salt Lake Tribune 11Nov00 A4 http://www.sltrib.com/11112000/utah/42358.htm By Lin Alder: Special to the Tribune See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0806123184/mormonnews More about Juanita Brooks' "The Mountain Meadows Massacre" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 12:52:37 -0200 > Thom, Where did you get the numbers to have the conclusion that Utah has more porn materials and child sexual abuse than other states? What about questioning these numbers? Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re:[AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People Date: 16 Nov 2000 16:24:15 -0200 Dallas Robbins > He says: "There are some works of art that stupid people will never understand because they weren't made for stupid people." Just had to share it. What=B4s the definition of a stupid person? Who=B4s stupid? The person who made some works of art that isn=B4t for all (the commom public) or the people who didn=B4t understand the "dificult" art ?????????? Think about this, man !!!!!!!!! Renato Rigo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 11:01:41 -0700 Thom Duncan wrote: >Let's not shoot the messenger, just because we don't like the news or want >to believe it. I would never advocate shooting anyone, least of all Thom (though if the messenger must die, it would be better to use a non-gun method so as not to annoy the gun lobby ;-) ). I do think it's fair to question the source and validity of the information, though. Anecdotal evidence is always questionable, as are many larger studies. As with everything else in this age of easy dissemination of information, the consumer has a right to ask what's in the package, and where it came from. I know, for example, that it's illegal to rent an X-rated video from a general video rental store in Utah (yes, there was a time in my life when I tried). You can't buy an explicit men's magazine such as Playboy, Penthouse, Oui, Gallery, or Gent in Utah County, though they are readily available in Salt Lake County. You can't legally subscribe to a satellite porn channel such as XXXtacy, True Blue, or Eurotica in Utah, though the Playboy Channel is available. There's an arbitrary line drawn between the alleged "hard R" and a regular X rating. How that line is drawn, or where is a mystery to me. Then again, Utah is one of the most Internet-connected places in the US. More people have computers, and more people have Internet access here than nearly anywhere else in the country. It's very easy to get explicit pictures, video, and fiction off the Internet--stuff that's a great deal raunchier than anything you could buy in a magazine. I tend to question that Utahns use more porn per capita than any other state; with the exception of the Internet, it's just not easily available. But I also suspect that those Utahns who do seek porn do so from a much more defiant point of view than in other places. There is a tremendous social (and legal) stigma here, and that forces consumers of porn to make an explicit choice to go against the push of society--to seek porn requires them to reject the mindset of the broader society. That was one of the interesting things I noticed while living in Germany. There was a much more casual attitude toward the explicit there, and as a result, there tended to be less of a sense of danger in consuming it--it was just another lifestyle choice like coffee, tea, or milk, or hockey vs. ice skating. I think it's very possible--even likely--that Utah porn users are more hard core; I think the social conditions almost demand it. If that means that those individuals jump more enthusiastically into it and amass a greater amount of it than happens elsewhere, I can accept that (though I'd still like to see the primary data and validate the data's source). I think the same pressure applies to people who act out on their sexual imagination. Having been forced to overcome such a great social resistance, they then may very well dive into the deep end of the pool when they do decide to act (sort of the way SLOC did with bribery; having decided to do it, they then proceeded with reckless abandon--and poor technique). And the point is well taken that many of these people are either Mormons, or are shaped by the pressures and influences of Mormon culture. I see no reason not to tell their stories if the market can support it or the author is willing. But I still think you have a long row to hoe if you want me to believe that every Mormon is a closet pedophile and every bishop is boffing the Relief Society president. That some are and do is not a question; of course it happens. But to say that only the stories that depict such things are truly "real" or truly representative of the culture is a stretch that I can't follow. And yet... Literature has a long history of telling the stories of people at the edges of society. Heaven knows, I don't think Ahab was the Everyman of 1850s America, or even an average representation of the subclass of whaling boat captains; he was slightly excessive by all standards of the time. But it's those very eccentricities that make him just distant enough for the author to expose (and exaggerate) real human tendencies, without attacking any individual reader. That distance allows for more thorough investigation. I get bothered when I hear that the only true stories are those of the edge. Yes, I believe that they are often more true in concept than other stories, but I don't accept that they're all more true in detail. And while I can accept the author's statement that some people (who may be Mormons) do feel the way that characters in a book do, I do not accept that any one voice speaks the mind of the whole community. (No, not even the prophet, who speaks the law of the community, but not the mind of it.) And I still don't think that the question "should a Mormon write that?" is an especially useful question. Each of us must ask "should *I* write that?" And each of us has to decide where our esthetic lines are drawn, and what subject matters or details are out of bounds. Authors have opinions and readers have opinions. Each should allow the other their thoughts, and neither is justified in saying, "Well, *real* Mormons only believe the way I say they do." In that case, both are wrong together, because Mormons--like all humans--are a diverse and wonderful people. They make desperate mistakes, commit gross arrogances, build wonderful beauty, and seek to prosper as best they can. And they speak their thoughts is variety of voices and by a multitude of metaphors. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 08:40:47 -0700 A couple of short responses: Cathy Gileadi Wilson writes: >Thomas More in _The Care of the Soul_ suggests that sexuality >is basic to our human nature, and if we deny that, it will >find a way for expression. Thomas More, the Catholic saint, or Thomas Moore, the former Catholic monk? Cathy continues: >So those many Mormons who aren't married might find their way >through pornography. Or they might not. Did Mr. Moore use pornography when he was a Catholic monk? Thom Duncan writes: >It's rather a given to anyone who has made a study of human >behavior that anything that can be imagined has been done by >someone, somewhere. I can certainly see why such a principle would be attractive to authors, because it says everything you write is real. It does tend to undercut criticism of the unrealistic nature of goody-goody Mormon literature, because it presumably applies equally well to it. And isn't the principle self-defeating? I can imagine students of behavior accepting as given a principle that is ridiculous. Has this thing that I've imagined been done? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] American Beauty (was: Orson Scott CARD Speech) Date: 16 Nov 2000 10:25:48 -0700 Thom Duncan, on American Beauty >Only we see the flip side, the results of going against >traditional family values. The characters end up suffering for their >mistakes, as our religion tells us will happen to all unrepentant >people. I'd take this a step further. The sins of the characters in American Beauty are all shown to be based on illusion, or even delusion. The characters are all pose and pretense, and act (do acts of evil) as a result of pose and pretense. The sexually promiscuous teenager turns out to be a virgin, and is finally revealed as a lonely, frightened little girl who really despises herself. And when Kevin Spacey's character finally sees her for who she is, without the romantic fantasies he's projected on to her, his evil desires (and they are absolutely evil, no question about it) disappear. And they . . . chat. About his daughter, who it turns out, he really does love, genuinely and truly. His character has utterly wrecked his life and the life of his family, and the feeling he's left with is nothing less than an overpowering, all encompassing sadness. I thought American Beauty was a bit overrated. The stylization of it, the hard edged look of it, was at odds a bit with what it finally turned out to about: a kind of goofy spirituality. A consequenceless spirituality, I think. I thought the manically rigid and abusive military father next door was a particularly distasteful cliche, and I didn't think Annette Bening's character was particularly inhabited. I mean, nobody's that surface-conscious, I don't think. And the wise-beyond-his-years drug dealer teenager character was someone I just didn't buy for a second. I loved the idea that we can find beauty in a piece of trash blowing in the wind, and I was moved by the ending, though it was a bit nutty, still I'm a sucker for nutty New Age movies. (I love, and will always love Field of Dreams, for example). I thought AB was an interesting film, in some ways a powerful film, generally well acted and with some nice moments. The best film of the year? No way. Not a chance. The Straight Story blew it off the screen. Even a fairly conventional thriller like Sixth Sense did a much better job of doing what it was trying to do than AB. So the Oscar went to a not-so-great film, an overrated film that nonetheles s had some nice things going for it and was pretty well acted. And the Academy ignored some much better, much better acted films. There have been worse travesties. (Shakespeare in Love, anyone? Titanic? The Sound of Freaking Music?) But to say AB's an utterly immoral movie, or a movie without social value, 'evil from the beginning to the end?' Balderdash. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Stringer Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 10:50:54 -0700 > >I feel it is important and some may disagree with me on this, but I like to > >base my stories on factual evidence. The NYT (which I take to mean New York > >Times) article could be valuable in helping us to write about real life and > >real people, but is distracting if just overblown. > > Does it have to accurate to be "worthy" of a fiction writer's talents? Even > if overblown, if one Temple Recommend holding member is involved in such > things, wouldn't that be enough justification to base a story on? Nope, doesn't have to be accurate at all to be "worthy" of a fiction writer's talents. However I do, from time to time, like to have anecdotes in the New York Times to have been based on truth - especially when I have a vested interest in the community, culture, etc. and literature. If I choose to write about real life and real people, albeit fiction and does choosing to ask for accuracy make my fiction "unworthy"? Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 16 Nov 2000 10:49:56 -0700 <<>> Linda, I just cracked open your _Prodigal Journey_ last night, actually. So far I find it more ambitious plotwise and storywise than Dean Hughes's first Children of the Promise volume, which I'm also currently reading, although a lot of your gearworks are sort of open to view rather than feeling organic (I'm speaking mainly of all the preliminary, ancillary material before we hit the actual narrative). So far I'm also finding yours at about the same level as Hughes's (with occasional blips downward) in line-by-line style, originality, and believability. I'm finding both books mostly adequate and sometimes even fleetingly engaging and compelling , but for me they don't yet reach the mesmerization (if that's not a word, it should be) of the top-tier national stuff because they revert to paint-by-numbers a little too often. But yeah, I meant yours as one of the exceptions to my blanket "cheese" statement, although the cover leans toward positioning it with the more cheesy romantic stuff, which in turn seems mostly to hearken back to the Weyland pretty-girl covers. If I had to predict the next category that would make it big within orthodox Mormon publishing (besides historical and romance), I would say speculative fiction like yours, so may you be on the early swell of an upcoming wave and become the Lund of speculative Mormon fiction. Or maybe it will be mystery, although you don't see Deseret cranking those out after some experimentation (I remember some title about "Cankered Roots"). If I remember right, Rachel Nunes's cover blurb calls your novel a great contribution to Mormon speculative fiction, but I found myself unable to think of any within the Mormon market (meaning Deseret Book and Covenant, mainly)---although I'm sure there's some. The speculative genre seems to be what's really broken out in the larger Christian market, so maybe Mormonism will follow that trend. My next LDS purchase will be Margaret Young's black history novel, which I don't own yet. From what I remember of them here at work, I think the Hughes and Young covers are both quite handsome and represent a step forward in LDS publishing design. By the way, I notice your novel got a good review in Irreantum. Well, I'm just full of opinions this week. You know, I really think e-mail has changed my personality nearly as much as something like Prozac could. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 11:15:17 -0700 Tracie Laulusa wrote: >Cathy said, "One family therapist suggested that improper sex has more of a >kick to it for people like us Mormons who have been warned against sex all >their lives." Would this fall into the "sinning against greater light and >knowledge" realm? [SNIP] >Having said all that, I agree that you can find within Mormon culture >anything you can find outside of it. David and I always chuckle, though >with a tinge of sadness, when people want to send their kids to BYU to clean >them up. You can find anything in Provo you can find anywhere else in the >world. Though I do think you have to actually want to find it. There's an oft-repeated saw that says that Salt Lake is the most corrupt and evil city in the world, and that the most disgusting of all possible sins are committed here. My limited experience with the world suggests that there are more sins under heaven and earth than are dreamed of in Mormon philosophy, and I doubt that the details of Salt Lake residents' sins can compete with the details of many non-residents'. And yet, we have been warned, so our sins carry the added weight of that knowledge. It's quite arguable that for a Mormon to commit sin requires them to reject the witness of the Holy Ghost--stated as the greatest sin of all. In that sense, yes, Salt Lake may contain the most corrupt people in the world, because they act against their knowledge. To act against knowledge is the very definition of evil. But I still suspect the details are far less grotesque than are easily available all around the world. It's one of the many arrogances that Mormons have as a group--we want to be be special for exceeding the mark on both ends of the scale. An odd sort of pride, that. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. Date: 16 Nov 2000 11:21:46 -0700 <<>> I'm glad D. Michael is getting some good feedback for planning future writer's conferences. FWIW, my basic personal response hasn't changed that overall the Young/Gray session was more suited to the AML's academic conference than its writer's conference. And yes, Linda, I don't think racism is as big an issue for me personally. One day I was having lunch with some friends, and one of them was talking about her relative whose child had adopted some mixed- race kids. My friend described how this aunt could never refer to her grandkids without calling them "my little mulatto grandson" or whatever. I remember mentally agreeing, "Golly, what a sad thing to be so obsessed with that characterist ic that you can't mention them without the accompanying label." And then I racked my brain for a moment to think if I knew any mulattos---and to my honest surprise, I suddenly remembered my own adopted son is one. That superficial characteristic is so far down my list of priorities that I barely even notice it. Of course, it helps that I've lived in more cosmopolitan areas than not (Boston, L.A., Australia---the not would be Utah) and that my mom was the type who would buy as many black dolls and picturebooks as white. I often enjoy the sensation of forgetting or not even consciously realizing any more than I would notice their clothes that someone is black. In my novel draft Linda was referring to, I have a woman character who dates a black man whose warm, brown skin she finds extra-deli cious, and I go into his situation a little as a convert in a white singles ward---so I'm not blind to the cultural realities although they're not personally much of an issue for me. And anyway, I don't remember the Young/Gray presentation applying the racial awareness issues directly to writing very much, although as D. Michael pointed out I did snooze through parts, as I very often do in ANY sort of talking-head meetings, even when they interest me---but for some reason I never fall asleep in movies, even when I don't like them. I guess I have selective narcolepsy. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 16 Nov 2000 10:13:23 -0700 Since we're talking about what we read, FWIW here's a list of what's on my own top-priority shelf right now (I've asterisked the ones I'm currently reading---I usually try to have one book in each category going at a time). Any feedback or comments on ones you've already read would be interesting. And let's hear what else some of you are reading right now. (Many of these choices have been influenced by AML-List, and others have to do with novel projects I sometimes dabble in.) CLASSIC FICTION Faulkner, William, Four Novels Hemingway, Ernest, For Whom the Bell Tolls Lawrence, D.H., Women in Love Lawrence, D.H., Sons and Lovers *Proust, Marcel, Swann's Way Shakespeare, King Lear Stegner, Wallace, Angle of Repose Steinbeck, John, East of Eden MARRIAGE & PARENTING Anonymous, The Sex Box Danielou, Alain, The Complete Kama Sutra *Easton, The Ethical Slut Scantling, Sandra R., Extraordinary Sex Now CONTEMPORARY FICTION Bellow, Saul, Humboldt's Gift Card, Orson Scott, Ender's Game Golden, Arthur, Memoirs of a Geisha Harris, Thomas, The Silence of the Lambs Hornby, Nick, High Fidelity Kennedy, Pagan, The Exes King, Stephen, Hearts in Atlantis Kingslover, The Poisonwood Bible Kirn, Walter, Thumbsucker Lahiri, Jhumpa, Interpreter of Maladies McGahan, Andrew, 1988 *Miller, Sue, While I Was Gone Potok, Chaim, The Chosen Roth, Philip, Sabbath's Theater Spencer, Darrell, Caution: Men in Trees Udall, Brady, Letting Loose the Hounds Updike, John, Roger's Version MORMON NONFICTION Altman, Polygamous Families in Contemporary Society Brodie, Fawn M., No Man Knows My History England, Eugene, Making Peace *Kidd, A Convert's Guide to Mormon Life Laake, Deborah, Secret Ceremonies Newell, Coke, Latter Days Newton, Marjorie, Southern Cross Saints: The Mormons in Australia Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic WorldviewShepherd, Mormon Passage: A Missionary Chronicle Stegner, Wallace, Mormon Country Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History MORMON FICTION *Adams, Linda, Prodigal Journey (Thy Kingdom Come, vol. 1) Anderson, Paris, Waiting for the Flash Card, Orson Scott, Saints *Hughes, Dean, Rumors of War (Children of the Promise, vol. 1) LaBute, Neil, Bash: Latter-day Plays Mitchell, Alan Rex, Angel of the Danube Samuelsen, Eric, Singled Out Sorensen, Virginia, A Little Lower than the Angels GENERAL NONFICTION Angier, Natalie, Woman: An Intimate Geography Baker, Nicholson, U and I Beatles, The Beatles Anthology Bloom, Harold, Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human Cooke, Margaret Atwood [bio] Davies, Hunter, The Beatles Maines, Racel P., The Technology of Orgasm McCourt, Frank, 'Tis Slater, Lauren, Prozac Diary Texier, Catherine, Breakup Updike, John, Self-Consciousness Wallace, Patricia, The Psychology of the Internet Yerkes (ed.), John Updike and Religion WRITING, EDITING, PUBLISHING Begley, Adam, Literary Agents: A Writer's Guide Bickham, Writing and Selling Your Novel Booth, The Rhetoric of Fiction *Card, Orson Scott, Characters & Viewpoint Davis, Creating Plot Forster, E.M., Aspects of the Novel Gardner, John, The Art of Fiction King, Stephen, On Writing Obstfeld, Crafting Scenes Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] KINGSOLVER, _The Poisonwood Bible_ Date: 16 Nov 2000 12:36:18 -0700 [MOD: Is the author of this book Kingsolver or Kingslover? Or something else? I've seen at least these two spellings.] Tracie Laulusa writes: > > And I loved the Poisonwood Bible. Would it surprise you to know > > that many of my LDS friends won't touch it with a ten-foot pole? Eileen Stringer responds: > It would surprise me indeed. We are reading it right now for our > Relief Society bookgroup and the feedback about it has been > positive. Not one disparaging remark for it yet. It came to us > highly recommended from a member of our Stake RS Presidency. > > I am certainly enjoying it. I find this most fascinating. This is the book that prompted Kristen Randle to declare: > As I read her, I wondered if I could write my own God as > passionately, as concretely as she writes her own bitterness > and disappointment. I don't think I can. I'm not sure I > should. Her full comments on this were posted to the list a few months ago. To see such a polarized reaction from other readers just proves to me once again that most of what we get from art is a reflection of what we bring to it. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People Date: 16 Nov 2000 13:09:05 -0700 >What=B4s the definition of a stupid person? With regard to the arts, I would hazard the following definitions: People who think that Jerry Stringer is good TV, who believe that the stories in National Enquirer are real, who believe that the pretty ladies in Playboy are actually looking at the m, who believe that politicians care more about the people than their own re-electtions, who think that Edgar Guest writes good poetry, who don't know what the initials PBS stand for people who talk to Jay Leno on his Jay Walk episodes people who think that there is a conspiracy in Hollywood to undermine American morals people who DON'T think there is a conspiracy in Hollywood to undermine American morals who believe Bill Gates when he says all he really wants is to make the wo rld safe for computing Renato, you might not understand all of these references, because they ha ve to do with American culture. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 14:23:43 -0700 I misspoke. Utah's child sexual abuse rate is above the national average, not the highest in the nation. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brandi Rainey" Subject: Re: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. Date: 16 Nov 2000 15:40:32 -0700 Linda Adams wrote: my dilemma as a writer is, how do I create believable Black charactersin my work, without sufficient personal experience? Where do I go tofurther my education, to learn the things life hasn't naturally given methe opportunity to know (yet?) Read Read Read!!! I don't pretend to be an authority in African American literature by any means, but I have done a bit of personal study (for all the same reasons you seem interested) and feel bold enough to make a few suggestions. W.E.B. DuBois was one of the first real contributors to African American lit. His "Souls of Black Folk" is a classic. Try Richard Wright's "Native Son" and Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man" as well. Anything by Toni Morrison (I suggest "Beloved", "The Bluest Eye," and "Jazz" for starters). If you're interested in poetry, take a look at Gwendolyn Brooks, Nikki Giovanni, and Yusef Komunyakaa. (The latter being my my personal favorite.) If you're REALLY serious, I strongly suggest "Call and Response: The Riverside Anthology of the African American Tradition" by Patricia Hill. It outlines all the major movements - DuBios, the Harlem Renaissance, the Black Arts Movement, and modern authors. She includes some critical theory to help us make sense of it all as well. Spike Lee is obviously the most influential black director of our day. He tends to be a little over the top in my opinion, but his work seems to me the most reflective of the themes I come across as I read. He did a wonderful film called "Get on the Bus" about several black men in route to the Million Man March in the early 70's. Thankfully, I could go on. Studies in African American literature and culture are on the rise all over the US. Most universities offer graduate degrees in African American studies, with professors and students from all races. BYU even offers a class or two these days. Miracles truly never cease. Brandi Rainey BrandiR@enrich.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re:[AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People Date: 16 Nov 2000 16:25:04 -0800 At 04:24 PM 11/16/2000 -0200, you wrote: >Dallas Robbins > > > He says: "There are some works of art >that stupid people will never understand because they >weren't made for >stupid people." Just had to share it. > >What=B4s the definition of a stupid person? Who=B4s stupid? >The person who made some works of art that isn=B4t for all >(the commom public) or the people who didn=B4t understand >the "dificult" art ?????????? > >Think about this, man !!!!!!!!! > >Renato Rigo I'm glad you said it first, Renato. I found the citation offensive andelitist. You know, this entire political season has been filled with ad hominemattacks against folks who don't deserve them. About four weeks beforeElection day, one of the TV commentators called those who hadn't made uptheir minds "numbskulls." Another called them "morons." As for the Hughes quotation, if I have to choose between being a smugself-styled intellectual and a "stupid" person, I think I'll choose thelatter. --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 22:59:10 -0500 At 04:47 PM 11/14/00 -0700, you wrote: >>It was found that the amount of porn >>consumed in Utah County per capita exceeds the national >average. > >I'd really like to see the research on this. I live in Utah County, and if someone were to ask me where one should go to rent a pornographic movie, or buy a pornographic magazine, I would have absolutely no idea what to tell them. ============================= Which hardly means there is no porn available in Utah County. The availability of porn, in Utah county or anywhere else, is a function of the internet, cable, and pay per view TV. One of the main points of the NYT's piece was that the porn business has exploded because it can now be had anonymously, without going into a newstand or video store. As to how much of this stuff is consumed in any given area, I'm assuming it can be known how many people subscribe to these outlets. Hotels certainly keep records, since they bill for it. So do cable companies. I have located the piece in my mailbox. There are no links, since it was forwarded to me on another list. I'm pasting in the first couple of paragraphs only, which gives you the reference for the article, and the essentials of what I have described. It could be had from the NYT's archives, if anyone wants the whole thing. Or, if you email me personally, I will be glad to forward it to you on an individual basis. Here's the opening paragraphs: ">'P' in Porn Stands for Profitable > Even in Utah, X-Rated Coupling With Big Biz > Saturday, >October > 28, 2000 > > > > BY TIMOTHY EGAN > New York Times > > PROVO -- The video-store chain that Larry W. Peterman owned in > this valley of wide streets and ubiquitous churches carried the >kind of > rentals found anywhere in the country -- from Disney classics to >films > about the sexual adventures of nurses. Peterman built a thriving >business > until he was charged last year with selling obscene material and >faced the > prospect of jail. > Just before the trial, Peterman's lawyer, Randy Spencer, came >up with > an idea while looking out the window of the courtroom at the Provo > > Marriott. He sent an investigator to the hotel to record all the >sex films > that a guest could obtain through the hotel's pay-per-view >channels. He > then obtained records on how much erotic fare people here were >buying > from their cable and satellite television providers. > As it turned out, people in Utah County, a place that often >boasts of > being the most conservative area in the nation, were >disproportionately > large consumers of the very videos that prosecutors had labeled >obscene > and illegal. And far more Utah County residents were getting their >adult > movies from the sky or cable than they were from the stores owned >by > Peterman. > Why file criminal charges against a lone video retailer, >Spencer argued, > when some of the biggest corporations in America, including a >hotel chain > whose board of directors includes Mitt Romney, president of the >Salt > Lake Organizing Committee, and a satellite broadcaster heavily >backed > by Rupert Murdoch, chairman of the News Corporation, were selling >the > same product? > Merlyn Clarke - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 16 Nov 2000 23:24:36 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- > MARRIAGE & PARENTING > Anonymous, The Sex Box > Danielou, Alain, The Complete Kama Sutra > *Easton, The Ethical Slut > Scantling, Sandra R., Extraordinary Sex Now Chris, I just want to thank you for making my day. You rock! Now, I want to see some really enlightened Mormon lit come from all that research you are obviously doing with these books. Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 21:51:08 MST Thom: --- It's rather a given to anyone who has made a study of human behavior that anything that can be imagined has been done by someone, somewhere. --- To the contrary, it would be more accurate to say that human imagination can go places that will never (thank God!) be real. Especially in the context of abnormal psychology. In fact, in that particular context, it is often the imaginary that causes the problems. --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: [AML] Your Main Profession Date: 16 Nov 2000 13:04:27 -0200 I curious about the main profession of the people that submited this aml-list. Here in Brazil, the best writers usually have another profession to survive. this happens because usually good books don=B4t sell a lot.... Is everybody in the list writer? Do you form a group of literature students from BYU... I noticed that some of you have been wrinting books... Just curiosity of a foreigner.. :-)) Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br __________________________________________________________________________ Todo brasileiro tem direito a um e-mail gr=E1tis http://www.bol.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 16 Nov 2000 23:57:08 -0500 From: Christopher Bigelow > Since we're talking about what we read, FWIW here's a list of what's on my own top-priority shelf right now (I've asterisked the ones I'm currently reading---I usually try to have one book in each category going at a time). Any feedback or comments on ones you've already read would be interesting. And let's hear what else some of you are reading right now. (Many of these choices have been influenced by AML-List, and others have to do with novel projects I sometimes dabble in.) > CLASSIC FICTION > Steinbeck, John, East of Eden I read this one back in high school and loved it. I should read it again. I also read _You Can't Home Again_ by Thomas Wolfe, and loved that as well. > MARRIAGE & PARENTING > Anonymous, The Sex Box > Danielou, Alain, The Complete Kama Sutra > *Easton, The Ethical Slut > Scantling, Sandra R., Extraordinary Sex Now Haven't read any of these, but after a visit to amazon.com, The Ethical Slut looks very, very interesting, and alas, The Sex Box is out of print :-( but one book I have in my collection is _Passionate Hearts_ which is a poetry collection of erotic poetry. > CONTEMPORARY FICTION > Card, Orson Scott, Ender's Game Come on Chris, read it. You could have it finished in a day. You won't be sorry. > King, Stephen, Hearts in Atlantis Bought it (thank goodness I bought it from Sam's Club and in paperback) read it, and still don't get it. But then, I am not a SK fan, though I did like _The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon_ > Kingslover, The Poisonwood Bible Have it, haven't read it yet > *Miller, Sue, While I Was Gone This is sounding familiar > MORMON NONFICTION > Brodie, Fawn M., No Man Knows My History Tried to read it, found it boring and one sided > *Kidd, A Convert's Guide to Mormon Life Will probably read it, I loved their book _Food Storage For The Clueless_ > Laake, Deborah, Secret Ceremonies Read it when it came out in paperback, if I had written it knowing what I do about the temple, I might have offed myself too. Really sad. > MORMON FICTION > *Adams, Linda, Prodigal Journey (Thy Kingdom Come, vol. 1) Loved it, anxiously awaiting for the second volume. As a side note, Linda did really well with her research as far as abusive situations go and her character's reaction to it. It took me back to unwanted memories of my own abuse in many instances. Linda told me that some people found the parents one dimensional, but isn't evil one dimensional in some cases? > Card, Orson Scott, Saints My very favorite Card book! Though I prefer the original _A Woman of Destiny_ (which he doesn't), but seriously, I think this was Card at his best, with _Enchantment_ a very close second > *Hughes, Dean, Rumors of War (Children of the Promise, vol. 1) Better written then the first few volumes of _The Work and the Glory Series_. Worth reading though, excellent research on wartime. > LaBute, Neil, Bash: Latter-day Plays After everything I have read on AML about this man, I will probably never read or see one thing of his > Samuelsen, Eric, Singled Out Loved this! I know a person in real life for every character in this book, especially Sandra, who I heartily disliked all the way through the book. Sorry Eric. > GENERAL NONFICTION > Maines, Racel P., The Technology of Orgasm Just where is this bookshelf in your house??? > McCourt, Frank, 'Tis This is one on my to read list for next year as is this next one > Slater, Lauren, Prozac Diary > WRITING, EDITING, PUBLISHING > *Card, Orson Scott, Characters & Viewpoint Have it > King, Stephen, On Writing Reading it now I agree with what King says about how in order to write you have to read. Right now my focus has been on poetry, reading it, writing it, discussing it, and teaching it with an e-list that I started with Scott Tarbet's help. As for books I am reading, or wanting to read, like Chris I usually have three or four going at once. But next on my list is _Sarah_ and the _Poisonwood Bible_ and a million others. One thing I have started doing is keeping a list of books I have read in a small notebook and marking the month and year I read them. I also add books that I have read over the years as I remember titles. It's interesting to see how my reading tastes have evolved over the years. Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 16 Nov 2000 22:05:06 -0700 Chris writes: Thomas Moore, the former Catholic monk? Moore, sorry for the typo. He wasn't addressing pornography itself but sexuality generally. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. Date: 17 Nov 2000 05:17:07 GMT The first Margaret Young novel I ever read was "House Without Walls." When I first met Margaret, I said to her, "Funny, you don't look Jewish! " Her Jewish characters were entirely believable. As a Jew, I'mfrequently amused by those who try to present Jews in fiction and botch it. Margaret did such a good job! She explained how she had spent time with a rabbi (I think that's what she said) and was able to develop a sense of it all. So it is possible to do this, but it takes a lot of work. And my sense is that you don't mind some work! > Linda Adams wrote: > my dilemma as a writer is, how do I create believable Black characters > in my work, without sufficient personal experience? Where do I go to > further my education, to learn the things life hasn't naturally given me > the opportunity to know (yet?) > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. (was: Writers' Conference Date: 17 Nov 2000 01:23:40 -0700 Linda Adams wrote: > I don't know where to turn to glean more information and knowledge on what > it is like, what it feels like, to be Black in America today (AND Mormon). > I don't know how, or if I could approach the issue with the smattering of > acquaintances I have. I would absolutely hate to offend anyone. How can I > communicate my absolute respect while asking stupid questions? If you don't mind the blind leading the blind (my experiences wih blacks is about as good as yours), I would think that only the most obnoxious people would be offended by questions from someone who sincerely wants to understand. If you just tell them you're an author that will be writing about some black characters and you want to get it right, I would think most people would be honored that you asked them. People like to feel like experts and share with others what they know. If you're afraid of repeating your bad 5th grade experience, I would recommend you don't ask a 5th grader, and chances are you won't. Which movies are accurate reflections of the black experience, I wouldn't know. But my guesses are, those by black people are likely to be: Spike Lee, _The Color Purple_ by black author Alice Walker, that sort of thing. What's this about _Blazing Saddles_ though? Wasn't that an accurate portrayal of black sheriffs in the nineteenth century west? Boy, am I bummed out! Another disillusionment. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 17 Nov 2000 01:32:39 -0700 Chris Grant wrote: > I can certainly see why such a principle would be attractive to > authors, because it says everything you write is real. It does > tend to undercut criticism of the unrealistic nature of > goody-goody Mormon literature, because it presumably applies > equally well to it. And isn't the principle self-defeating? I > can imagine students of behavior accepting as given a principle > that is ridiculous. Has this thing that I've imagined been > done? This is a moot argument, because when it comes to fiction, whether something really happened or not--whether it _could_ happen or not--is completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters in fiction is, did the author set up or foreshadow the event well enough to make it believable? That's why the saying "truth is stranger than fiction" exists. Real occurrences need no justification--they just are. Events in fiction are universally known to be made up, therefore the author has the obligation to make them believable. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People Date: 17 Nov 2000 01:46:34 -0700 renatorigo wrote: > What=B4s the definition of a stupid person? Who=B4s stupid? That one's easy. Any person who doesn't think the way I do is stupid. Well, come on, 'fess up. That's everyone's secret little definition of stupid, isn't it? --D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Smith Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 17 Nov 2000 05:36:15 -0700 [Let's not shoot the messenger, just because we don't like the news or want to believe it. My friend did not pull these statistics out of a hat. He is, after all, a teacher of abnormal psychology, and has availability to numbers that you and I can only guess at.] The following stats were gathered by United Way, and aired on KSL-TV, 29 August 2000. My ears perked up when I heard these stats because I work with child abuse prevention and do mental health therapy with court-ordered youth in Utah County, and know intimately that this area has its share of dysfunctional people. One in eight Utah women experiences physical abuse, one in three endures emotional abuse in a relationship, and one in three suffers sexual abuse before age eighteen. The crowning figure that religious Utah is not all well is that child sexual abuse here is DOUBLE the national average. (29 Aug. 2000 KSL-TV). The saddest and my most difficult, trying cases are the young girls I work with--they invariably have been sexually violated. In one e-mail correspondence with United Way where I expressed frustration that the two major newspapers in Utah did not pick up a story about their data, the director intimated that people tend to want to hide such negativity; she told me later that one of the papers finally did do a piece. As a student in one of Darrell Spencer's creative writing classes at BYU more than ten years ago, I wrote a short-short story about an incident of child abuse, and open as Darrell was, he didn't feel the subject matter was appropriate. Now, writing about such evil, ugly things happening to young, good, innocent people is becoming accepted, even vogue, even accepted and vogue within LDS literature. One final thought: because most of us live good, honest lives, and our lives do not revolve around "unhealthy, dysfunctional" people as in my profession, we tend to believe most everyone are good and honest as we are. I learned long ago that "nice" is not the same as "good." And that the lovely dressed and suited families sitting in church on Sundays are sometimes not what they appear. Sarah Smith - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Albert Wang Subject: Re: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. Date: 17 Nov 2000 06:02:18 -0800 (PST) Hi everyone, the novel I'm working on entitled "Jane Air-literation" deals with a black and white interracial LDS marriage and the controversy at Columbine. Not bad for an explosive topic? Alfie Wang - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Albert Wang Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 17 Nov 2000 06:37:18 -0800 (PST) I'm reading Bret Easton Ellis' Glamorama, which is about drugs, sex and money and being a male model in America. It's a cool book because realizing our country is quite corrupt and evil is quite fantastic like a Nathaniel West book and I am entertained by this satire on the downfall of our civilization and its growing stupidity. And the other book I am loving is The Elementary Particles by Michel Houellebecq. Lovely cynical work and shows how mankind is suffering from a lack of Christianity. :) A[lbert] Wang - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 17 Nov 2000 10:56:06 -0700 [MOD: I think we're spending too much time and effort on questions of statistical accuracy that aren't part of the central purpose of the List (at a time when List volume is running high) and that don't seem easily verifiable, anyway. I'd like to encourage any further posts on this topic to return to the question of how this affects--or ought to affect--the literature we read and write, by, for, or about Mormons.] On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:59:10 -0500, Merlyn J Clarke wrote: > The availability of porn, in Utah county or anywhere else, is a function >of the internet, cable, and pay per view TV. One of the main points of the >NYT's piece was that the porn business has exploded because it can now be >had anonymously, without going into a newstand or video store. As to how >much of this stuff is consumed in any given area, I'm assuming it can be >known how many people subscribe to these outlets. Hotels certainly keep >records, since they bill for it. So do cable companies. The article you included only compared satellite and cable delivery statistics. Since you can't get porn in Utah in many of the forms so beloved by inhabitants of other states, it doesn't surprise me that the anonymous delivery services are somewhat higher in Utah (and what exactly is the definition of 'disproportionately large'?). The implication of hypocrisy just isn't borne out by this faulty comparison. Other states' residents don't have to resort to satellite delivery for their perversions. They can go down to the neighborhood bar or sex-shop. Avenues not available in Utah. I'd be willing to bet that if you compared dollar for dollar you would find that Utah per capita porn consumption is below other states but concentrated in the venues detailed by the NYT. Clever statistical sampling does not equal an accurate picture of reality. =46inally, I don't think that hotel records of guest porn consumption can indicate *anything* about the residents of an area, except what can't be found in the community that is provided by the hotel... Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Real Life Date: 17 Nov 2000 09:46:05 -0700 <<>> I thought the saw was more, SLC will BECOME the most wicked city in the world. I personally think what will happen is some new form of evil will arise here and make SLC the world capital of it. Maybe something combining technology with the human body or something, or some new drug, or some form of spiritualism/satanism more accessible to the masses. And of course, that would make SLC the most wicked city in the universe too, since this earth is reportedly the most wicked of all God's planets, the only one that would kill the Savior. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism (was: Robert Hughes and Stupid People) Date: 17 Nov 2000 16:43:17 -0600 I think Dallas was making a joke. It turns serious, though, when these "stupid" people start saying that art is bad simply because they don't get it. These "stupid" people are often the ones who think that a world power ought not to put any of its own money into the arts, because the funding doesn't go to subsidize Alan Jackson concerts and NASCAR races. Jeff Needle had the following comment: > You know, this entire political season has been filled with ad hominem > attacks against folks who don't deserve them. About four weeks before > Election day, one of the TV commentators called those who hadn't made up > their minds "numbskulls." Another called them "morons." > > As for the Hughes quotation, if I have to choose between being a smug > self-styled intellectual and a "stupid" person, I think I'll choose the > latter. Jeff, I'm not sure how you think that you're not making an ad hominem counter-argument here. Two ad homenims don't make a right. Also, are there people who DO deserve ad hominem attacks? If so, please tell me who they are so that I can turn my guns on them. Ad homenim is my second favorite fallacy after "straw man," though I am partial to slippery slope and ad populum. (Note the use of reductio ad absurdum, which is my favorite classical rhetorical strategy). One need not be a "smug self-styled intellectual," as I just was, in order to claim that there are stupid people in the world, though it is sometimes awful to say as much. In fact, lots of rednecks and anti-intellectual gun-toting PBS nay-sayers think that certain people are stupid for any number of reasons that have only to do with the fact that the rednecks don't like what the "stupid" people are saying about, for example, making it harder for eight-year olds to accidentally shoot their cousins in the head. But let me be candid. There is at times a very anti-intellectual strain on this list. It has come out on more that one occasion in the last half year or so that I have been posting. People have, from time-to-time, said that the pursuit of formal education is worthless for writers, that college English professors, in particular, don't know jack about anything, and so forth. That is nonsense, and we have been over that, but it seems to play well on this channel, so it goes unchallenged for the most part, which is too bad. Perhaps this comes from a kind of Mormon populist thing that kind of stains any discussion of real intellectualism. It happens in church and it happens here. Perhaps intellectuals bear some part of the blame, no, I'm sure we do. We haven't, as a general rule, been as inviting to the general population as we could be, particularly since the late 60s through the 80s. We have been snotty and exclusive jargon-mongers. Still it is interesting to me that a group of people who are generally thoughtful and well-read can so easily slip into basic black/white, tis/tain't, wet/dry arguments. Those who indulge in anti-intellectualism are no better than those who call people stupid or fat or ugly. The issues here are much more complicated than that. Those who indulge in anti-intellectualism also seem to have no idea at all that they might be really hurting someone's feelings by reducing someone's life and profession even their joy, in some cases, to a vexation or small-minded character flaw. I do think that we should talk. Air things out. A certain degree of "dynamic tension," the groups gurus say, is beneficial and helps promote growth. So I am in no way telling anyone to knock anything off. I wouldn't presume. But I am a little dismayed that the subtleties are, at times, swallowed up by quick, emotional soundbites, bullets aimed at the head. Am I alone in this concern? Am I over-reacting? Did I miss the joke too? [Todd Robert Petersen] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 17 Nov 2000 11:13:22 MST Merlyn Clarke quotes, from a NYT article: --- Just before the trial, Peterman's lawyer, Randy Spencer, came up with an idea while looking out the window of the courtroom at the Provo Marriott. --- This is hardly objective evidence of rampant porn consumption in Utah County. Rather, this is just a description of the theatrical courtroom stunt of a defense trial lawyer who is attempting to justify his client's illegal porn peddling. He didn't even win the case. This issue connects strongly with discussions about "real life" and mormon literature. The persuasions of defense lawyers trying to keep porn merchants out of jail do nothing to negate the fact that a community standard exists in the predominantly mormon community of Utah Valley. Utah County's district attorney is charged with defending against encroachments of this standard. Adovcates of the "real life" approach to writing seem to need a rationale for dismissing the well-known values of the mainstream mormon community. Hypocrisy notwithstanding, the standards exist and are well known. More telling, in the Movie Buffs case, was the apparent discomfort of many community members about the district attorney's threat to disclose the Movie Buffs confiscated business records in the trial, including the names of those who rented porno videos. This information, alas, was not disclosed in the trial. --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 17 Nov 2000 11:22:02 -0700 (MST) [MOD: A reminder of my earlier note on turning this discussion in a more literary direction. This and several other messages were already in the hopper when that went out.] Thosm said: > Let's not shoot the messenger, just because we don't like the news or want > to believe it. > > My friend did not pull these statistics out of a hat. He is, after all, a > teacher of abnormal psychology, and has availability to numbers that you and > I can only guess at. > I'm perfectly willign to beleive him if I can get more than his anecdotal assesment - but I've known enough psychologists, policetypes and asylum workers who become convinced that everyone is abnormal in whatever way their patients/clients are to not beleive anecdotal evidence from someone who focuses exclusively on just one area of behavior. --Iv - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Date: 25 Sep 2000 05:37:06 -0600 If my son had spent time at a fire station when he was two years old and he just happened to be diaperless, I assure you he would have figured out a way to negotiate the pole. He used to slide down a huge carpeted staircase head first. One day he tried it without his diaper. I will never forget the pained expression on his face. :( Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Kramer Subject: Re: [AML] Topics for Satire Date: 17 Nov 2000 15:54:34 -0700 I apologize for resonding to late to Ed Snow's questions. Sometimes time is hard to come by. Ed asked: >Neal, I'm glad you asked this question. Based upon >your contributions in the recent Mormon Literature >Dialogue (from which I learned a lot--thanks for >putting that together), I got the impression you have >a general opinion that humor, wit and satire are not >the highest and best uses of literature in any event. >And I'd say you're right. But I think, perhaps, your >opinion may have influenced your question to Eric. I think that's correct. I'm very concerned with versions of irony and their rhetorical consequences. I tend to think that irony and its weaker sister, sarcasm, tend to be very divisive tropes. That is, they seek to exclude a significant proportion of the audience and then allow those who "get" the irony to belittle those who don't get it. It's a highly stylized intellectual game whose best practicioners have included people of enormous intellect, i.e., Socrates, Erasmus, Swift, Pope. But I think the belittling is ethically questionable. I also question its teaching efficacy. I think using irny to teach people by mocking them is counterproductive--and probably less than charitable. I also think that awareness of the limits of satire and irony also helps to define the rhetorical space in which it is necessary to respect the appropriately dignified and sacred. > >In defense of humor, wit and satire as at least >important uses of literature, consider Joseph Smith's >"hunter & his bow" story he told to defend himself >against complaints that he goofed around too much: the >hunter's bow that's never unstrung will lose its >spring. > >In the circus of literature, satire, wit and humor are >the humorist's tightrope act. The set of limitations >humorists must set for themselves is the net. I think both analogies are appropriate and helpful. Let me make a distinction that arises from my article. I think it useful to distinguish between being light-hearted and light-minded. A good deal of the humor we admire from General Authorities is light-hearted and mildly self-deprecating. These people take their authority seriously, but they don't take themselves seriously. They distinguish between personal foibles and sacred responsibility. Many J. Golden Kimball stories, especially the ones that involve profanity, still fall into this category. Even the story about President McKay on his knees in his bedroom chuckling out loud as he shares a good joke with Heavenly Father falls into this category. I'd even say the good news, bad news joke about the Millennium falls into the same category. A General Authority reports the good news that the Lord is here to begin the Millennium and follows it up with the bad news that He's at the Cathedral of the Madeleine. It's my five-year-old sister standing on the stairs in our living room, pretending to lead the music in Junior Sunday School, belting out "There is beauty all around, When there's no one home." (I have nine younger brothers and sisters, some of whom were still in the spirit world at the time in question.) Light-mindedness is something else again. Light-mindedness often wishes to hurt. It has an edge to it that suggests the butt of its humor is inferior to the jokester. It suggests that the intellectual capacities of the commentator are superior to the benighted masses. It has a touch of the Tonight Show's Jay Walking to it. It's a kind of abuse. Mark Twain at his most bitter often falls into this category. Swift does, too. Their irony reflects a deep pessimism about humanity, a brutal misanthropy. Light-mindedness doubts not just the appearance of sanctity but also its very possibility. It delights in caricature that diminishes stature, not just puffery. It doesn't know the difference between the two. I'll close by suggesting that the boundaries between the two are not easily identified. But when the satirist starts to justify herself by saying that those who complain about a work's moral force just don't get it or that they are naive or dull, my antennae start to perk up. Hope this late addition makes a little sense. Neal Kramer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re:[AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 17 Nov 2000 15:52:21 -0200 > I=B4m reading at the moment "The Portrait of an artist as a young man" - James Joice "The Biography of Albert Einstein" - A brazilian author "Marketing for the 21st century" - Phillip Kotler Other books from Brazilian authors Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Moderator Note Date: 17 Nov 2000 17:09:11 -0600 Folks, List volume is heavy right now, and I'm getting lots of multiple submissions from a few individuals. This will probably result in some of these posts not making it to the List. I'd like to suggest the following rules of thumb: * Try to limit yourself to 2-3 posts per day. * If you have several thoughts/responses on the same general topic, put them in a single message. * Consider whether you've already made your point and if you're contributing something new to the discussion. If not, and if you've already posted on the subject under discussion, consider letting it go. I'm delighted that so many people are finding so much to write about--and I don't want anyone to stop contributing. If we all exercise a little care, I think we can keep the conversation going without significantly overflowing the in-boxes. Other announcements: The List will be down this Thursday, November 23, in honor of the U.S. Thanksgiving holiday. Also (for those planning ahead), the List will be down Dec. 16-29, since I will be on holiday at that time. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 17 Nov 2000 10:17:22 -0800 Gae Lyn Henderson wrote: > > Then, interestingly, Rob Pannoni sees a higher ethical stance in the > separation of church and state. He finds advocating a religious system (via > art) in a school setting inappropriate. He finds a difference between art > that examines a religious culture and art that advocates a certain moral > frame. I have to ask Rob though how art can avoid advocating its own moral > frame? I guess I do see separation of church and state as a higher ethical stance, but beyond that, it is also the law of the land. It seems to me that the law, even though subject to interpretation, is a more solid basis on which to deal with the issue than heartfelt opinion, which runs strong on both sides. As for art advocating a moral frame, the constitution doesn't say anything about art (other than guaranteeing the right to free speech). Nor does it say that the state can't advocate a moral frame. It just says the state can't advocate a particular religion. I don't think many people would object to a play advocating Christian virtues. But if the point of the play is to attribute those virtues to Christ or to assert his divinity, then you are entering the realm of religion rather than morality. Religion isn't about morality as much as it is about deity and worship. I am not intimately familiar with Godspell, but from what I know of it, I don't see how anyone could reasonably construe it as not being religious. And since, unlike Fiddler on the Roof, religion is the focal point of the play rather than simply a part of the context, I think there are valid constitutional grounds on which to object to its production by a publicly funded institution. The irony is that most of the objection is actually coming from those who don't think the play supports the prevailing religions views of the community. It may be the right answer, but for an entirely wrong reason. I suspect many of the objectors would be shocked and apalled to find themselves on the same side of the issue as the ACLU! -- Rob Pannoni Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: [AML] Correct Address for AML Orders? Date: 17 Nov 2000 10:28:16 -0800 Somehow I've got 2 different postal addresses for AML. Which should I use if I want to join the AML, or order Irreantums or Annuals -- AML, 1925 Terrace Drive Orem, UT 84097 OR AML 262 S. Main Springville, UT 84663 ???? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Your Main Profession Date: 17 Nov 2000 20:36:24 -0600 (compilation post) >From cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Fri Nov 17 11:15:28 2000 I just started teaching an adult education course at College of Eastern Utah, including English, Math, Computer Literacy and Study Skills. Before that--and now on the side--I have been working as a freelance editor and ghostwriter. It has not brought in riches but HAS brought in a steady income. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 >From wwbrown@burgoyne.com Fri Nov 17 11:25:14 2000 Neat question, Renato. We have a lot of "teachers" at universities. I'm in publishing. Marilyn Brown I make my living as a writer, but most of my income is from non-fiction rather than from creating insightful, awe-inspiring LDS literature! I mainly write technical articles. Right now I'm ghost-writing a business book. I've also written some science fiction and some romance. If you actually want to see something I wrote, you can go to www.regencyreticule.com and see an ongoing serialized novel that I've written a couple of chapters for. It's set in 1814, after Napoleon's first abdication and before he escaped from Elba and caused several thousand more men to die in battle. I was asked to write the first chapter, which meant I got to do the plot setup and create the main characters. It's not going to win the Nobel Prize, but it was a whole lot of fun to do. barbara hume >From adamszoo@sprintmail.com Fri Nov 17 15:33:43 2000 I'm a full-time mother of five kids, the youngest 8 weeks old. My husbandis an accountant. I make time to write during naptimes, nighttime, and soon. I'm hoping my book sales might help our ends meet a little better but I have no delusions of becoming rich from my writing. Not all of us on the list are writers though, and to my knowledge the more prominent LDS authors (Lund, Hughes, Card, Weyland) are not on the List. If they are, they're permanently lurking! I've been on the list 4 years at least. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People Date: 17 Nov 2000 20:42:13 -0600 (compilation post) >From jcobabe@hotmail.com Fri Nov 17 11:18:26 2000 D. Michael Martindale: --- That one's easy. Any person who doesn't think the way I do is stupid. Well, come on, 'fess up. That's everyone's secret little definition of stupid, isn't it? --- Not at all. I frequently find myself qualifying for the "stupid" category. I might be stupid, but at least I strive for intellectual honesty. In any case, it certainly seems that there's plenty of other stupids to keep me company. --- Jim Cobabe ---------------------------- >From eileens99@bigplanet.com Fri Nov 17 11:26:31 2000 renatorigo wrote: >> What=B4s the definition of a stupid person? Who=B4s stupid? D. Michael responded: >That one's easy. Any person who doesn't think the way I do is stupid . >Well, come on, 'fess up. That's everyone's secret little definition of >stupid, isn't it? I shall have to agree with D. Michael on this, as much as we do not w ant to admit it I believe it lurks in the dark corners of most of us, if not all. Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com >From wwbrown@burgoyne.com Fri Nov 17 11:31:22 2000 I'm with Michael. So I guess it's not just YOUR little secret anymore, Michael. Marilyn Brown >From Jacob@proffitt.com Fri Nov 17 11:34:03 2000 On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 01:46:34 -0700, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >Well, come on, 'fess up. That's everyone's secret little definition of >stupid, isn't it? I just took a poll and looked at the results afterwards. One of the questions is "Do you believe you are a) above average intelligence, b) average intelligence, c) below average intelligence?" At that point in the poll (I have no idea how many people had taken it), the results were A - 63%, B - 31 %, and C - 6%. You do the math... Assuming you are above average intelligence... :) Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] Tracy Hickman Short Stories Date: 17 Nov 2000 17:30:12 -0700 Is any one familiar enough with Tracy Hickman's short fiction to tell me where they fit into the larger framework of the Dragonlance novels? Here's the list of titles I'm wondering about: "Dedrak's Quest" "Kitiara's Son" "The Legacy" "Raistlin and the Knight of Solamnia" "Raistlin's Daughte." "The Sacrifice" "The Story That Tasslehoff Promised He Would Never, Ever, Ever Tell" "The Silken Threads" "True Knight" "'Wanna Bet?'" and "Heart of Goldmoon" (by his wife Laura and someone else) Thanks, Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. Date: 17 Nov 2000 16:10:24 -0600 At 04:40 PM 11/16/00, you wrote: >Read Read Read!!! > >I don't pretend to be an authority in African American literature by any >means, but I have done a bit of personal study (for all the same reasons >you seem interested) and feel bold enough to make a few suggestions. >W.E.B. DuBois was one of the first real contributors to African American >lit. His "Souls of Black Folk" is a classic. Try Richard Wright's "Native >Son" and Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man" as well. Anything by Toni >Morrison (I suggest "Beloved", "The Bluest Eye," and "Jazz" for starters). Thank you, Brandi, for this excellent starting list. I really appreciate it and will shortly be heading out to my local library! I've intended to read _Beloved_ for some time. I'd post more, but my time is short today. Just wanted to say a quick thanks, and I was happy to see this thread going and that there have been several responses so far. D. Michael--good advice, don't ask a 5th grader. LOL! And no Jeff, I surely don't mind hard work. I always research areas unfamiliar to my own experience in as many ways as possible when I write about them. With this, however, I just didn't know where to start exactly. If I had the time I would take an African-American lit/studies course--right now I don't, but that's a great idea for someday. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Correct Address for AML Orders? Date: 18 Nov 2000 01:59:08 -0700 Frank Maxwell wrote: > Somehow I've got 2 different postal addresses for AML. Which should I use > if I want to join the AML, or order Irreantums or Annuals -- > > AML, > 1925 Terrace Drive > Orem, UT 84097 > > OR > > AML > 262 S. Main > Springville, UT 84663 Either address will work for now, but the official address is the Springville one. The Orem address is being phased out. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 17 Nov 2000 16:32:51 -0600 At 11:49 AM 11/16/00, you wrote: >Linda, I just cracked open your _Prodigal Journey_ last night, actually. >So far I find it more ambitious plotwise and storywise than Dean Hughes's >first Children of the Promise volume, which I'm also currently reading, >although a lot of your gearworks are sort of open to view rather than >feeling organic (I'm speaking mainly of all the preliminary, ancillary >material before we hit the actual narrative). So far I'm also finding >yours at about the same level as Hughes's (with occasional blips downward) >in line-by-line style, originality, and believability. I'm finding both >books mostly adequate and sometimes even fleetingly engaging and >compelling, but for me they don't yet reach the mesmerization (if that's >not a word, it should be) of the top-tier national stuff because they >revert to paint-by-numbers a little too often. I'm looking forward to your review, Chris, because I know you'll be more critical than many readers I've heard from. I mean that in a good way--I know you can/will pick it apart and I've been needing someone to do that. Glad to know you've got it! >But yeah, I meant yours as one of the exceptions to my blanket "cheese" >statement, although the cover leans toward positioning it with the more >cheesy romantic stuff, which in turn seems mostly to hearken back to the >Weyland pretty-girl covers. Rats! I liked the cover and hate Weyland's. I can say that my original idea for the cover was to have it look more like a science fiction paperback, with an artist's rendition of a scene or characters in the book. But when Cornerstone showed me this concept, I really liked it just as well as my idea. In some ways may be good that the cover might draw the cheesy-romantic readership, since honestly it's not that at all but it will draw them in once they've started reading. This cover simply might sell better than a "sci-fi" cover would, in its current market. (We hope to market it in regular trade outlets eventually, as well.) >If I had to predict the next category that would make it big within >orthodox Mormon publishing (besides historical and romance), I would say >speculative fiction like yours, so may you be on the early swell of an >upcoming wave and become the Lund of speculative Mormon fiction. Thanks! This is my hope. I have my fingers crossed. From the time I was a teenager (reading Weyland and finding it rather lacking for my taste) I've wanted to make changes in LDS fiction for the better. That's my goal. Well, one of them. One of my other daydreams is to succeed OSC, but well . . . that's quite a long way off yet, if I can do it at all. :-) One can always try. Linda Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 17 Nov 2000 15:55:58 -0700 Intellectualism is a real problem for Mormons, because so often it starts resembling humanism, which looks like it's antithetical to the gospel. Recently I received a subscription offer from Free Inquiry, a magazine published by the Council for Secular Humanism that "answers only to men and women who want to think for themselves instead of being bamboozled by appeals to tradition, authority, or blind faith." As I have reviewed this magazine's promotional materials, I find myself comparing it to Mormon intellectualism and wondering what the two have in common and how much they SHOULD have in common. We know a believing Mormon can be a Democrat, but can a believing Mormon be a humanist? Is there such a thing as "faithful humanism," or is that an unresolvable oxymoron? The two dictionary definitions of humanism that seem most applicable to me in this setting are: "the revival of classical letters, individualistic and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns characteristic of the Renaissance," and "a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason." In considering that question, it would be interesting and fruitful to compare the mission statement of the main Mormon intellectual bastian--the Sunstone Foundation--with the statement of purpose of Free Inquiry: Sunstone The mission of the Sunstone Foundation is to sponsor open forums of Mormon thought and experience. Under the motto "Faith Seeking Understanding ," we examine and express the rich spiritual, intellectual, social, and artistic qualities of Mormon history and contemporary life. We encourage humanitarian service, honest inquiry, and responsible interchange of ideas that is respectful of all people and what they hold sacred. Free Inquiry Our best guide to truth is free and rational inquiry; we should therefore not be found by the dictates of arbitrary authority, comfortable superstition, stifling tradition, or suffocating orthodoxy. We should defer to no dogma--neither religious nor secular--and never be afraid to ask, "How do you know?" We should be concerned with the here and now, with solving human problems with the best resources of human minds and hearts. I admire Sunstone's idealized goals, but I think most educated Mormons would say the Free Inquiry statement applies more to Sunstone than Sunstone's statement does, which highlights the difficulties and pitfalls of the whole endeavor. The spiritual dangers I see intellectuals facing are pride, stiff-neckednes s, and relying on the arm of flesh (in other words, humanism stated in orthodox Mormon terms). But I see room for using god-given intellectual talents to openly explore Mormon experience, scholarship, issues, and art in a way that is at least not unfaithful, although the institutional Church and those who fully cleave unto it intellectually and culturally (not just spiritually and doctrinally) will rarely be satisfied with it. I look to intellectuals to continue finding sensitive, careful ways to break the following cultural taboos identified by Free Inquiry magazine and certainly applicable to Mormonism: Don't criticize anything the public loves. Don't demean any social icons.Don't evaluate dogma, superstition, or strongly held beliefs. Don't question the current trends. Don't ask for evidence. Don't criticize religion. The question for me is, is it possible to do so in a more inclusive, less polarizing way? Can Mormons learn to simultaneously juggle intellectualism/ humanism and faith? Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] Re: What We're Reading Right Now Date: 17 Nov 2000 16:22:29 -0700 I just haven't had the time to read as much as I like for the past several months. Since January I have acted in two plays, directed two plays and written another. That's in addition to a couple of write-for-hire jobs and bits and pieces on smaller personal projects. For Christmas last year I got a terrific book by David Quammen, _The Song of the Dodo: Island Biogeography in an Age of Extinctions_. I started reading it right away and I was doing pretty well until "Much Ado About Nothing" got in the way. I have made it only to page two-hundred. Five-hundred more to go. I have Ed Snow's _Of Curious Workmanship_ in my scripture tote. I read a bit whenever sacrament meeting gets too boring. I read Eric Samuelsen's _Singled Out_ one Sunday. Other than that, I can't remember reading any other books this whole year except for _The Doctine and Covenants & Pearl of Great Price_. I'll finish the _Book of Mormon_ sometime before Christmas. If I get Scott Card's _Sarah_ for Christmas this year (I am drafting a letter to Santa), I will drop everything and read it in a couple of days. Then I will get back to the singing dodos. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Date: 17 Nov 2000 16:45:56 -0700 On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 08:31:53PM -0700, Morgan Adair wrote: > Of course, it's also possible that Van Wagoner set the story in SLC and > included a few Mormon references because he is familiar with Mormon > culture and knows the names of streets and landmarks in SLC. Sometimes > a cigar is just a cigar, and sometime a city is just a city. A book has to be > set somewhere--does setting it in SLC mean that the book is really "about" > Mormonism, in the absence of any other evidence? In stories where "a cigar is just a cigar," I think the author has missed an opportunity to create a greater depth by choosing meaningful symbols. Why choose a cigar when you could choose a cigarette (commercially manufactured or hand rolled), a pipe, or a marijuana joint. Each carries some pre-established concepts that the audience correlates into the story. In Van Wagoner's _Dancing Naked,_ Van Wagoner goes out of his way to associate Terry's emotional state with his geography. Terry's most conflicted periods of life occur in Salt Lake. The literal "dancing naked" scene -- the peak of Terry's happiness -- takes place on the Maine coast. Van Wagoner set his book in Salt Lake because his main character reflects the culture of that area. He could have placed Terry's Mormon family in southern California, but he would have achieved a different effect. -- Terry Jeffress - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Meredith Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 17 Nov 2000 16:05:27 -0800 (PST) Lawrence, D.H., Women in Love: One of my all timefavorite books. A good follow-up read is a D.HLawrence short story, =93Odor of Chrysanthemums=94. Depicts the completely other end of the social strata. Shakespeare, King Lear: See =93Ran=94 a Japanese versionof the King Lear Story. Stegner, Wallace, Angle of Repose, A beautiful bookthat cuts through all the sentimentality so common inpioneer stories=85 ahem. *Miller, Sue, While I Was Gone: Interesting choice, I felt she wrote kindof like Daniel Steele, (but thenI've only read one of her books, years ago). I hadthis and Terry Tempest William=92s book, _Leap_ with mein Madrid this summer. Finished Miller, couldn=92tstand the latter. Laake, Deborah, Secret Ceremonies: Interesting choicefor =93LDS=94 lit. Sad story about someone trying to live the gospel without an understanding of itsprinciples. Terribly sad how her story ended thislast year. McCourt, Frank, 'Tis : Not nearly as wonderful as_Angela=92s Ashes_. The characters all become prettymuch as awful as the father. Unfair marketing ploy to simply bind the first part of a book under one titleand the conclusion, (which, I feel is inferior) in asecond book. Right Now I'm reading (and would suggest that everyMormon woman should as well): _Family Ties_, byClarice Lispector. _On the Road_, Jack Kerouac _Kiss of the Spider Woman_, Manuel Puig _Poisonwood Bible_, actually haven't started this one, but really looking forward to it as my ancestorsresided in South Africa before joining the church andemigrating to the US. [Kathleen Meredith] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 18 Nov 2000 02:39:57 GMT [snip] Also, are there > people who DO deserve ad hominem attacks? If so, please tell me who t hey > are so that I can turn my guns on them. I didn't intend that. I don't think anyone deserves an ad hominemattack. It points to a lack of a coherent argument, the equivalent of "your mother wears army boots." Ad homenim is my second favorite > fallacy after "straw man," though I am partial to slippery slope and a d > populum. (Note the use of reductio ad absurdum, which is my favorite > classical rhetorical strategy). > One need not be a "smug self-styled intellectual," as I just was, in order > to claim that there are stupid people in the world, though it issometimes > awful to say as much. You miss the point. In the original post, an entire class of people who don't understand, or appreciate (I forget), a piece of art are called "stupid." Does this not strike you as odd? I've looked at some pieces of art in museums and said, "I don't get it." Lots of people whoappreciate such art DO get it. I don't get it. I'm not stupid. I'm no genius, to be sure. But I'm not stupid, I'm just not very much into appreciation of some forms of art. I happen to love watching "The West Wing." Some people don't like it. Some don't get it. None of them are "stupid," at least not just because they neither like nor understand "The West Wing." Is that clearer? In fact, lots of rednecks and anti-intellectual > gun-toting PBS nay-sayers think that certain people are stupid for any > number of reasons that have only to do with the fact that the rednecks don't > like what the "stupid" people are saying about, for example, making it > harder for eight-year olds to accidentally shoot their cousins in the head. > But let me be candid. > There is at times a very anti-intellectual strain on this list. It ha scome > out on more that one occasion in the last half year or so that I have been > posting. People have, from time-to-time, said that the pursuit of for mal > education is worthless for writers, that college English professors, i n > particular, don't know jack about anything, and so forth. That is nonsense, > and we have been over that, but it seems to play well on this channel, soit > goes unchallenged for the most part, which is too bad. I would be the last one to encourage anti-intellectualism. Such a way o fthinking is unfortunate. It's not uncommon among religious groups, but it's still unfortunate. However, I don't think the "stupid" quotation brings us any closer to a resolution to the problem. Perhaps the real solution is to return to civility. --Jeffrey Needle E-mail: jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brent J. Rowley" Subject: Re: [AML] ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 17 Nov 2000 22:00:22 -0700 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > If I had to predict the next category that would make it big within orthodox Mormon publishing (besides historical and romance), I would say speculative fiction like yours, so may you be on the early swell of an upcoming wave and become the Lund of speculative Mormon fiction. Or maybe it will be mystery, although you don't see Deseret cranking those out after some experimentation (I remember some title about "Cankered Roots"). If I remember right, Rachel Nunes's cover blurb calls your novel a great contribution to Mormon speculative fiction, but I found myself unable to think of any within the Mormon market (meaning Deseret Book and Covenant, mainly)---although I'm sure there's some. The speculative genre seems to be what's really broken out in the larger Christian market, so maybe Mormonism will follow that trend. > Chris, I'd be VERY interested in hearing what your definition is for "Mormon Speculative Fiction," and why it is that there aren't many out there up until now. And while you're at it, why do you think it'll be the next big thing in Mormon publishing? -BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Moderator Note re: Pornography in Utah Date: 18 Nov 2000 18:16:07 -0600 Folks, I'm exercising a rare moderator's prerogative and cutting off this discussion at this point, with no further posts on this topic to go out at this time (including those currently in my in-box). The discussion has not returned to a more literary connection, and it's cluttering up the AML-List in-box at a time when many other exciting conversations are taking place on topics more closely connected with the purpose of the List. Apologies to those whose comments I'm cutting off in mid-stream. Please understand that I don't mean this as a rebuke to anyone. It's just that I think we've explored this topic at sufficient length for right now, and it's time to move on to other things. Conversation is encouraged on other aspects of the Real Life thread. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bwillson01" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism (was: Robert Hughes and Stupid People) Date: 17 Nov 2000 22:12:19 -0700 A joke is something that is intended to make people laugh. Where does it say a joke should be used to make the majority laugh at the minority to such an extent as to make the minority feel shame and even pain, or to make one segment of humanity laugh at another segment to the extent it causes a rift or intense anger, and a desire for retaliation? Bill Willson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People Date: 17 Nov 2000 22:52:30 -0700 I've been a pretty staunch supporter of the right of people to like what the literati considers to be worthless literature. I believe that all thought deserves expression--even if that thought is simple or its expression is simple. To criticize a work as poorly wrought or conceived is one thing (and a good thing, IMO), to carry the criticism forward into judgement and dismissal of those who like it is another. I don't care for elitism on either side of this argument, myself. It's never wrong to educate oneself to the issues, techniques, and vocabulary of criticism. And it's never right to be smug in one's lack of education on a subject--any more than I think it's right to dismiss people as persona non grata for their lack of formal training. However... There *are* stupid people who consume (or attempt to consume) art. There *are* people who are simply unable (not to be confused with unwilling) to understand (not to be confused with accept) anything outside of their own perspective. So lighten up. There are stupid people just like there are tall people. Or short ones. Or thin or fat or liberal or conservative or bearded or bald. And if that strikes anyone as a stupid thing to say, then I suppose it just proves my point... Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 17 Nov 2000 21:02:39 -0800 (PST) Chris, I found your list remarkable and tried to respond about a few of the texts listed. Didn't write anything about the classics, as I think they stand for themselves. Here's a question, while I'm at it: Is there an anthology of Mormon lit by international Mormon writers? In the interests of compression, I'll answer Renato's question as well here, by saying, I read/ write nothing during the semester outside my own profession (German lit and hx), but I have read some noteworthy things of perhaps wider interest. 1) Bernhard Schlink's The Reader 2) Hans J. Massaquoi's Destined to Witness: Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany One parenting recommendation as well: Robert Cole's the Spiritual Life of Children, worth reading for the kids drawings alone. --Ruth On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Christopher Bigelow wrote: > > MARRIAGE & PARENTING > *Easton, The Ethical Slut I wonder if this isn't a deja vu of _Open marriage_. A newvo-waveo 70s manual? If it is, well, yawn... not everything from the 70s needs be recycled. > > CONTEMPORARY FICTION > Bellow, Saul, Humboldt's Gift tried right after college, thought maybe I was the wrong age-group/gender to get it. > Golden, Arthur, Memoirs of a Geisha > Kingslover, The Poisonwood Bible > Lahiri, Jhumpa, Interpreter of Maladies > *Miller, Sue, While I Was Gone Loved these > Potok, Chaim, The Chosen Read this as a child and loved it, my parents still swoon over it, though I wonder now if it doesn't border on kitsch... > Roth, Philip, Sabbath's Theater can't get through a Philip Roth book, it's interesting to me that he's so big on the list. [I think there are more interesting Jewish writers in the US and elsewhere. For me, Roth's only noteworthy for his wide reception] > MORMON NONFICTION > Brodie, Fawn M., No Man Knows My History Read this and found it very interesting as a controversial history. > Laake, Deborah, Secret Ceremonies A lot of the non-Mormon moms my mother's age (60-70) read this. I took a peak at it a few years ago, but found myself cringing, and feeling too sorry for her, so I eventually put it down unfinished. > Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview This I found interesting but somewhat tedious > MORMON FICTION > Card, Orson Scott, Saints Am very curious to read this > LaBute, Neil, Bash: Latter-day Plays Saw and liked this very much in LA > Mitchell, Alan Rex, Angel of the Danube This is my first priority after the semester ends. > Sorensen, Virginia, A Little Lower than the Angels Loved this [Ruth ] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 18 Nov 2000 18:35:27 -0600 Christopher Bigelow said: "We know a believing Mormon can be a Democrat, but can a believing Mormon be a humanist? Is there such a thing as "faithful humanism," or is that an unresolvable oxymoron? The two dictionary definitions of humanism that seem most applicable to me in this setting are: "the revival of classical letters, individualistic and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns characteristic of the Renaissance," and "a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason." Can Mormons learn to simultaneously juggle intellectualism/humanism and faith?" Chris, I think that a Mormon can be a humanist and faithful believer. It really all comes down to how one defines humanist. I would suggest reading the article "The Sacred Humanist" on the Harvest Magazine website. It takes on these issues in a positive way, not falling into a trap of "either/or" thinking, but "and" thinking. Here is the link: http://www.harvestmagazine.com/september/humanist1.htm It is being published in three installments, of which the first two are available. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmgazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 18 Nov 2000 21:32:21 -0700 >Intellectualism is a real problem for Mormons, because so often it >starts resembling humanism, which looks like it's antithetical to >the gospel. "Looks like" is the operative phrase. Humanism, truly understood, is no more anthithetical to the Gospel than Evolution, properly understood is. >Recently I received a subscription offer from Free Inquiry, a >magazine published by the Council for Secular Humanism that >"answers only to men and women who want to think for themselves >instead of being bamboozled by appeals to tradition, authority, or >blind faith." I see this is as completely in line with the Restored Gospel. Section 9 tells us we must think things out for ourselves. Brigham Young makes numerous statements against blindly following our leaders. And as far as appeals to tradition -- well, we all know how God feels about putting the traditions of men above appeals to modern revelation. >We know a believing Mormon can be a Democrat, but can a believing >Mormon be a humanist? Is there such a thing as "faithful >humanism," Yes. I'll explain more later in this post. > or is that an unresolvable oxymoron? The two dictionary >definitions of humanism that seem most applicable to me in this >setting are: "the revival of classical letters, individualistic >and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns >characteristic of the Renaissance," Don't we consider the Renaissance as the gateway to the Restoration? The Renaissance gave us Protestantism, which then lay the groundwork for the Restoration. What is the Dark Ages if it isn't mankind lost in the mire of religion tradition, with reason taking a back seat, if at all. >and "a philosophy that usually >rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and >worth and capacity for self-realization through reason." To make this fit within the ideals of the Restoration, I'm going to redefine supernaturalism from what the writer of this definition probably intended. I'm going to say that supernaturalism is differnt than sprituality. I'm suggesting that supernaturalism involves a governing belief in ghosts, witches, and miracles -- in the case of the latter miracles are defined as occcurences that fly in the face of known science. Notice I also said a "governing belief." We LDS do believe in witchcraft as a Satanic imitation of real Priesthood power, but it doesn't govern our lives. We believe in the afterlife but we don't typically visit mediums. We believe in miracles but miracles that exist within the framework of science (either known or unknown.) >In considering that question, it would be interesting and fruitful >to compare the mission statement of the main Mormon intellectual >bastian--the Sunstone Foundation--with the statement of purpose of >Free Inquiry: > >Sunstone > The mission of the Sunstone Foundation is to sponsor open >forums of Mormon thought and experience. Under the motto "Faith >Seeking Understanding," we examine and express the rich spiritual, >intellectual, social, and artistic qualities of Mormon history and >contemporary life. We encourage humanitarian service, honest >inquiry, and responsible interchange of ideas that is respectful >of all people and what they hold sacred. > >Free Inquiry > Our best guide to truth is free and rational inquiry; we >should therefore not be found by the dictates of arbitrary >authority, Neither should good LDS, imo. Again, what does arbitrary authority mean? I suggest within the Restoration, it means not basing any belief merely on the word of another living human, be he Prophet or poet. We should, instead, seek knowledge *for ourselves.* The prophetic words then act as a catalyst, not the end in themselves. >comfortable superstition, In Mormonism, these would be Three Nephite stories, or "faith-promoting rumors." >stifling tradition, You mention one of Utah Mormonisms stifling tradition, the idea that a good Mormon can be a Democrat. Even though our leaders tell us differently, many of us still believe this. There are other stifling traditions, which I won't enumerate. >or >suffocating orthodoxy. Orthodxy is anathema to the Restored Gospel and always will be. It implies a closed canon, and ours is open. >We should defer to no dogma--neither >religious nor secular--and never be afraid to ask, "How do you >know?" We should be concerned with the here and now, with solving >human problems with the best resources of human minds and hearts. "Man should be anxiously engaged in a good cause of their own free will and choice." >I admire Sunstone's idealized goals, but I think most educated >Mormons would say the Free Inquiry statement applies more to >Sunstone than Sunstone's statement does, which highlights the >difficulties and pitfalls of the whole endeavor. Educated, perhaps. But certainly uninformed. >The spiritual dangers I see intellectuals facing are pride, >stiff-neckedness, and relying on the arm of flesh (in other words, >humanism stated in orthodox Mormon terms). Like these can't happen among non-intellectual Mormons? >But I see room for >using god-given intellectual talents to openly explore Mormon >experience, scholarship, issues, and art in a way that is at least >not unfaithful, although the institutional Church and those who >fully cleave unto it intellectually and culturally (not just >spiritually and doctrinally) will rarely be satisfied with it. Such is the plight of the LDS artist. It is our cross to bear. >I look to intellectuals to continue finding sensitive, careful ways >to break the following cultural taboos identified by Free Inquiry >magazine and certainly applicable to Mormonism: >The question for me is, is it possible to do so in a more >inclusive, less polarizing way? That isn't so much the question as: Will others see our efforts as being inclusive in a less polarizing way? If, for instance, a reader or viewer of our offerings confuses cultural comments with religious criticism, then we're dead before we start. >Can Mormons learn to >simultaneously juggle intellectualism/humanism and faith? We can only hope and pray that this will be the case. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 18 Nov 2000 21:36:18 -0700 >The speculative genre seems to be what's really broken out >in the larger Christian market, so maybe Mormonism will follow that trend. It's already there. Started in the 80's with Lund, Hiemerdinger, and has continued unabated through today. My own novel was of that genre, published in 1990. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 18 Nov 2000 15:58:59 -0700 Just finished Kent Harup's _Plainsong_. For a book that the San Francisco Chronicle calls "haunting, virtuosic, inimitable," I found it a little disappointing. Gotta love those McPheron brothers though! Too bad they didn't get the movie made while Richard Farnsworth was still alive. But who could have played the other brother? _The Book of Ruth_, by Jane Hamilton. An amazing book--especially considering that it was Hamilton's first. One of the most compelling voices I've read in a very long time. _Poisonwood Bible_, Barbara Kingsolver. I loved the first two thirds of this book, but then it really started to drag for me. I almost got the feeling that Kingsolver was trying too hard in this novel. In terms of writing, I think _Pigs in Heaven_ is better. _Traveling Mercies_, Anne Lamott. Wow! I love Lamott for her freshness, her gutsy humor, and her unflinching honesty. After I finished reading the copy I checked out from the library, I immediately went out and bought my own. Then I sat down and read it again, this time with pen in hand so that I could underline passages and carry on a dialogue with Lamott in the margins. Then I bought another copy to send to a friend who has been experiencing a crisis of her faith. She claims that this book saved her. _Bird by Bird_, Anne Lamott. _Rosie_, Anne Lamott After _Traveling Mercies_ I wanted to read everything Lamott had ever written. _Bird by Bird_ was fun. Probably one of the best books about writing on the market. _Rosie_, an early novel, was less satisfying. I think Lamott has found her niche in the personal essay/memoir genre. Otherwise, I have mainly been reading children's and YA fiction including some really great stuff by Joan Bauer (_Rules of the Road_, _Backwater_, _Squashed_, _Thwonk_), Richard Peck (__A Long Way From Chicago_), and Louis Sachar (_Holes_). Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "lynn gardner" Subject: [AML] Regretfully Resigning Date: 18 Nov 2000 20:40:58 -0800 We're up to our ears getting ready for our mission and I simply don't have time to read all these wonderful posts, (228 in my in box!) since my eighth book is now in process of final editing, then I have to condense it for book on tape before we leave. (Merry Christmas! I swore I'd never have another book to get ready for publication over the holidays!) So I'm signing off for the next 18 months till we get back from wherever we're going. I will come on one last time when we get our call to tell "y'all" where we get to serve. It's been marvelous having this window on the LDS world of literature and letters since my writer's group are all non-member. I will be back! Thank you all for sharing your insights ...Lynn Gardner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Allred Subject: [AML] Review of WHITLEY, ed. _Worth Their Salt, Too_ Date: 18 Nov 2000 20:56:37 -0500 (EST) Colleen Whitley, ed. _Worth Their Salt, Too: More Notable But Often Unnoted Women of Utah._ Logan: Utah State University Press, 2000. Soft cover, 322 pp. Reviewed by David Allred. A follow-up to Whitley's first book of Utah women biographies, Worth Their Salt, Too follows the same pattern in presenting the lives of a handful of women who have distinguished themselves in some manner. This volume include s sixteen biographies that memorialize and recount the experiences of social activists and religious leaders, poets and royalty, scholars and lobbyists. The biographies are arranged in chronological order from Patricia Lyn Scott (born in 1808) to Emma Lou Thayne (born in 1924), and each has a different author (of which all but one are female). With the different authors comes variation in the length, depth, and tone of the biographies; some of the biographies seem more professional than others. Still, throughout the book, the lives of these women unfold to the reader=92s amazement. There are important stories that are seldom told about Utah women. I see merit in this book for several reasons. First, the basic concept of book gives it significance. The past, as it appears in history, tends to focus on the radical, the public, the leaders, and the controversies. Often the voice of the common people doesn=92t find its way into "history." While the histories that focus on the Smiths, the Youngs, the Snows, the McKays are valuable, there should also be a place for the everyday, run-of-the-mil l people, the type of people memorialized by J. Rueben Clark. Whitley's book does well in focusing on the "notable but unnoted." If the book gives the democratic perspective, it also gives the marginal perspective. By this I mean, the book does well in presenting Utah history in complex form. Minority views (racial, religious, social, etc.) come out in the biographies of these women. While several of the women in the book are Mormon, many are not. Those that are more have various shades of "activity." For most readers, Worth Their Salt, Too will tell new stories o f Utah history. For example, the biography of Sarah Ann Sutton Cooke tells the story of a legal battle between herself and Governor and President Brigham Young. Cook e became "the first person to win a civil judgment against Brigham Young" (19). The biography of Verla Gean Miller FarmanFarmaian hints at the perceptions of Utah from the outside world (in the early twentieth century) . FarmanFarmaian was surprised to see her Iranian boyfriend had a picture in his apartment of "an enormous bed filled with weeping women." The wreath by the women had the words "=92In memory of our beloved husband, Brigham Young .=92" Questioned about the picture, her boyfriend explained that he bought the image in a Parisian flea market because it "reminded him of his own family" (229). Worth Their Salt, Too has application to Mormon literature studies in a couple of ways. First, the biographies of Emma Lou Thayne and Virginia Sorensen, while being short, give insight into the writers. Mary Lythgoe Bradford=92s biography of Virginia Sorenson helps track her life after she wrote her classic Mormon novels. The byline of Bradford also points out the future complete biography being written by herself and Susan Howe. The book also helps contextualize the Lost Generation of Mormon writers. For example , the Ester Eggertson Peterson=92s biography complements Virginia Sorenson=92 s by showing how non-writers were also part of the same "generation" of Mormons. On the whole, the book is easy to read and very engaging. There is a diversity of experience in the book that gives it a wide appeal. The book does have limitations as well. Some of the biographies are too romanticized in telling the life story of their subjects. These overly dramatic accounts point to the fact that biography is a cross between history and creative writing or that there is a poetics which informs the rhetoric of presenting fact. Furthermore, in several places the biographies seem sketchy or incomplete. I=92m sure part of this is due to the lack of primary sources, especially about the women who have died. However, important issues come up in some of the biographies that are not addressed. Ada Duhigg hints at conflict betwee n her Methodist worldview and the dominant Mormon perspective (166). Alberta Mae Hill Gooch Henry is heavily involved in the African-American community in Utah, but her biography doesn=92t detail social conflicts that arose ove r the Mormon policy of blacks being ineligible for the priesthood. There are also personal details that are glossed over. We see that Verla Gean Miller FarmanFarmaian=92s marriage falls apart, but there are few indications of w hy. Still, as I point these areas out, I wonder what business is it of mine. Reading biography is a sort of imposition on the lives of others, and, in the end, it may not be the reader=92s place to dictate what stories are tol d. These are biographies, but they are not tell-all biographies. Bruce Jorgensen=92s criticism may apply here. These biographies are the stories o f "strangers," and the stories have something to contribute to the conversation about Mormon and Utah culture. --David Allred ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=3Dsignup - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 20 Nov 2000 01:07:36 -0700 Linda Adams wrote: > One of my other daydreams is to succeed OSC, but well . . . > that's quite a long way off yet, if I can do it at all. :-) One can always try. If there is a God, you'll eventually have to change your dream to succeeding Orson Scott Card and D. Michael Martindale. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ (was: What We're Reading Right Now) Date: 19 Nov 2000 07:05:24 -0800 (PST) Kathleen Meredith said, "Laake, Deborah, Secret Ceremonies: Interesting choicefor =93LDS=94 lit. Sad story about someone trying to live the gospel without an understanding of itsprinciples. Terribly sad how her story ended thislast year." I am so curious. How DID her story end? ==== Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 20 Nov 2000 01:57:57 -0700 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > The spiritual dangers I see intellectuals facing are pride, stiff-neckedness, and relying on the arm of flesh (in other words, humanism stated in orthodox Mormon terms). But I see room for using god-given intellectual talents to openly explore Mormon experience, scholarship, issues, and art in a way that is at least not unfaithful, although the institutional Church and those who fully cleave unto it intellectually and culturally (not just spiritually and doctrinally) will rarely be satisfied with it. Here's how I look at it: We have the Standard Works. They are called "Standard Works" because they are meant to be our standard for eternal truths. Haven't General Authorities said that we should measure anything they say against the Standard Works? But aren't the prophets speaking new scripture when they speak as a prophet, and therefore adding to the Standard Works? I would say no, because I think there's a fine but critical difference between scripture--a prophet speaking by the Spirit--and Standard Works--that which has been accepted unanimously by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve and presented before the General Conference of the Church for an approving vote to become part of the official canon. The Prophet has the authority to add to, modify, or supercede, any part of the Standard Works. But not every utterance, or even every inspired utterance, of the prophet constitutes such a change. When polygamy was abolished, when the Pearl of Great Price was included as part of the LDS canon, when the Word of Wisdom was made binding upon the membership of the church, when blacks were given the priesthood, when certain historical records of revelations were added to the Doctrine and Covenants as new sections--all these things went through the proper procedures to become a part of the Standard Works. When a General Authority speaks--even in General Conference--we ought to consider them as divinely inspired guidance for us at that time, but not additions to the Standard Works. If a General Authority says something seemingly contradictory to the Standard Works, it ought to be suspect and given the acid test of seeking verification through personal revelation. By the way, that doesn't mean saying, "I don't like what he said, so I'm going to assume he was speaking as a man, not a prophet." It means really seeking through the Spirit to find out from God--from the source--whether it was divinely inspired. If LDS theology is looked at in the proper perspective (as I described above), there is a whole lot of room for intellectual analysis. What's Gospel and what's folk doctrine? What's divinely required procedure and what's culturally developed tradition? What does this and that passage in the Standard Works mean, considering every word of it was written in different cultures and time periods from our own? How does placing a passage of scripture in its historical context alter its meaning from the face-value interpretation we give it filtered through our cultural eyes? The danger in intellectualism comes when we "reject the supernaturalism" that is the greatest blessing of our theology. LDS intellectuals, I believe, have earned a bad reputation in part because they seem to reject this supernatural heritage. They rely solely on the arm of flesh, in the form of their own intellect and reason. They believe they are liberating themselves to find real truth, but in reality they are blocking an entire source of truth that can keep them on the right track: the guidance of the Spirit. On the other hand, anti-intellectuals are committing the same sin from the other direction. They are blocking an entire source of truth themselves, just a different one: the God-given intellect we all possess. They think their approach is superior because it includes the Spirit, forgetting that the famous passage in the Doctrine and Covenants that tells us to study it out in our mind, then pray for confirmation, is telling us that _both_ sources of truth are critical to our spiritual progress. The most famous passage in the Book of Mormon says the same thing: we are not told merely to pray about the Book of Mormon and receive a witness from the Spirit; we are first instructed to read the thing and ponder what we read. The pattern is clear: use your intellect to achieve the best approximation of truth you are capable of, then receive confirmation from the Spirit to keep you on the right track. The first step is trivialized if we don't use intellectualism (reasoning, critical examination, questioning, etc.) to give it meaning. But intellectuals get their bad rep by excluding the second step. That would include denying the premise that the prophets really are prophets, which I think is the one mistake that gets them into the biggest PR trouble. If you deny the reality of living prophets, your "Mormonness" becomes meaningless. > I look to intellectuals to continue finding sensitive, careful ways to break the following cultural taboos... > The question for me is, is it possible to do so in a more inclusive, less polarizing way? Can Mormons learn to simultaneously juggle intellectualism/humanism and faith? I think I've already answered this by pointing out the process we are taught by scripture to follow in our search for truth. No juggling act is necessary--step one of the process _requires_ us to analyze intellectually. Just don't skip step two. Mormons don't trust intellectuals because they do seem to skip step two. Intellectuals either need to stop skipping it, or explain more clearly in what way they are including it. If they disbelieve the reality of step two, they ought to stop calling themselves Mormon anything, let alone Mormon intellectuals. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: [AML] Cracroft on BROWN and MITCHELL Date: 18 Nov 2000 16:18:19 -0700 [compilation post] Richard Cracroft gives Marilyn Brown's new book a GLOWING review in the most recent _Brigham Young Magazine_! Cracroft calls _The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ Brown's "best and boldest work to date" and writes that "in many respects Marilyn Brown's fine novel matches and even excels Maurine Whipple's classic, _The Giant Joshua_." He concludes by predicting that _The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_ "may come to be numbered among those few works of Mormon fiction we call 'classic'." Congratulations Marilyn!!! Alan Mitchell's _Angel of the Danube_ also got a rave review from Richard Cracroft. Cracroft calls the book "an unusual, often startling but wonderfully refreshing Mormon missionary novel." Cracroft goes on to write: "In Alan Mitchell we may have discovered our Mormon Saul Bellow." Wow! High praise indeed. Congratulations Alan. Another book to add to my Christmas list. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Mormon Missionaries in _Salon_ Date: 20 Nov 2000 09:22:51 -0700 Hi all, My favorite e-zine, Salon, has a very nice story about Mormon missionaries in Prague. The writer spent some time with a dozen or so elders and sisters, and the article is even-handed and, I think, generally positive. I recommend it to all. www.salon.com Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Robert Hughes and Stupid People Date: 20 Nov 2000 09:47:23 -0700 Nailed me: Thom Duncan on stupid people: >>What s the definition of a stupid person? >With regard to the arts, I would hazard the following definitions: >People who think that Jerry Stringer is good TV, In a trailer park, quasi-voyeuristic, hate-yourself-for-liking-it sort of way, Jerry Springer is, IMHO, gangbusters TV. >who believe that the stories in National Enquirer are real, Let's see, the National Enquirer who broke the Lewinsky story? >who believe that the pretty ladies in Playboy are actually looking >at them, They're actresses; they're projecting. I could make an audience-response argument that, in a very real sense, they ARE looking at you. >who believe that politicians care more about the people than >their own re-electtions I was in the news business long enough to know that any politician worth his/her salt is a genuine people person, and really does care about his/her constituents. Great car salesmen succeed because they do genuinely care about their customers. >who think that Edgar Guest writes good poetry, Edgar Guest writes wonderful poetry, for people who like didactic rhyming verse. I'm not Guest's audience, but for his audience, he's the best. My mother-in-law adores his poetry. I'm flattered that you would refer to the mother of the woman I married as 'stupid.' >who don't know what the initials PBS stand for Pretty Boring Stuff, isn't it? >people who talk to Jay Leno on his Jay Walk episodes People who probably answered thirty questions correctly, and one incorrectl y, but which is the one Jay airs? >people who think that there is a conspiracy in Hollywood to >undermine American morals Whereas the truth is, there's a conspiracy to make as much money as possible, and the best way to do that is to pander to the worst human instincts. >people who DON'T think there is a conspiracy in Hollywood to >undermine American morals Nice rhetorical trick here. >who believe Bill Gates when he says all he really wants is to >make the world safe for computing Well, all right. Those people are probably kinda dumb. Thom, I love you like a brother. But please, let's not do this. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Mormon Spec. Fiction & Mysteries Date: 20 Nov 2000 09:54:16 -0700 Responding to B.J. Rowley: <<<>> I picked up the term from others, but my understanding is that it's basically science ficiton and fantasy with Mormon elements (I'm sure others could define it much better). I guess that makes Anne Perry's _Tathea_ spec. fiction as well as most things by Orson Scott Card. I just think that as Mormon publishing looks to expand its business, it's the next natural genre to exploit---Mormons already read/write sci. fi. and fantasy at higher-than-average rates, and it would be mirroring success in other religious publishing communities. It would be interesting to hear people's experiences with trying to get the orthodox Mormon houses to do speculative. If they already have, it's slipped under my radar for the most part. Another possible breakthrough genre for Mormon publishing is Mormon mystery, which I've personally noticed more experimentation with by DesBook and Covenant (sometimes mixed with action or romance). But does it rub you wrong to see Deseret Book promo copy almost cavalierly talking about murder, while the lesser sin of adultery remains so taboo? It's the same kind of hypocrisy that allows us to view terrible violence and killing but balk at the use of the f-word or some sex. But I'm just speaking as an outside observer---let's hear from some LDS publishing personnel and LDS-market authors, both in terms of experience and hopes regarding these genres. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 20 Nov 2000 10:33:34 -0700 Here here. Todd is absolutely right. We're on the List because we share a love of good literature. And we disagree on the List because we think different sorts of literature are good. And some of us are professors and some of us are fans and some of us are writers and some of us have Ph. D.'s and some of us don't. What we have in common is a love for good writing, specifically writing in a particular cultural context. We can, do and should disagree. But we have no business judging each other. Look, I'm an outspoken cuss, and I have very strong opinions, and I make a fool of myself all the time. I may very well have offended some of you, and if that's so, I regret it more than you can know, and I beg your forgiveness. But I try, I really do try, not to judge anyone. And that's what bothers me so much about so much Mormon discourse in the arts. We are just real quick to judge our brothers and sisters. It's unworthy. >These "stupid" people are often >the ones who think that a world power ought not to put any of its >own money >into the arts, because the funding doesn't go to subsidize Alan >Jackson concerts and NASCAR races. And Alan Jackson is one country singer with some real wit and energy. And NASCAR is great entertainment for a whole lot of people. I'm not one of them, but I have a brother who is. And so on. And I know I'm a broken record on this. But it seems to me to be unworthy and unrighteous to suggest that people who like stuff we don't like are, on the one hand, gross immoralists reveling in the worst aspects of human existence or, on the other hand, vapid sentimentalists afraid to embrace the ugliest, but truest, aspects of human existence. Scott Card is an old friend of mine, but I don't appreciate being told that American Beauty is an evil movie and that I'm depraved for enjoying it. By the same token, I don't get to sneer at folks who like Edgar Guest's poetry, or who enjoy Rick Evans' novels. And that's the problem with morally based criticism. If we declare a work of art (which isn't sentient, after all, which hasn't agency, which is just an artifact,a thing, that sits there on the nightstand with circular hot chocolate mug stains on the dust cover) immoral, if we say 'that novel/movie/poem/song/symphony/sculpture is immoral', then we must of necessity declare those who created and/or admire it similarly immoral. And I just don't think that's something we get to do in this life, except perhaps in the most carefully qualified 'just-expressing-my-opinion-and-con cern' sort of way. Yesterday, my closest friend in the world, who is single, told me he was in Priesthood, and the lesson had to do with marriage, and he's the gospel doctrine teacher, and one of his brothers, a man who he's known for five years said 'you know, some people can know the scriptures and know the gospel backwards and forwards and still be too damn dumb to get married." Bam, just like that. And so I do think that that brother did something very wrong, and needs to repent for it. I think that its possible to judge someone righteously for judging unrighteously. Todd Peterson again: >Also, are there >people who DO deserve ad hominem attacks? If so, please tell >me who they are so that I can turn my guns on them. Ad >homenim is my second favorite >fallacy after "straw man," though I am partial to slippery slope >and ad populum. Well, I reserve my ad hominem attacks for folks who judge the moral character of their brothers and sisters based on which works of art speak to them. I think people who judge are in a state of sin. As am I. As are we all. But on a list like this one, that particular sin is particular ly galling. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 20 Nov 2000 15:00:56 -0800 There's an interesting Salon magazine article on her. http://www.salonmag.com/people/feature/2000/10/27/laake/index.html --Ruth Darlene Young wrote: > Kathleen Meredith said, "Laake, Deborah, Secret > Ceremonies: Interesting choice> for =93LDS=94 lit. Sad story about someone trying to > live the gospel without an understanding of its> principles. Terribly sad how her story ended this> last year." > > I am so curious. How DID her story end? > > ==== > Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. Date: 17 Nov 2000 13:37:19 -0700 I enjoyed reading about the black character's in Linda Adams' _Prodigal Journey_, but to me there was a problem that I am afraid many of us (white Mormons who have lived in nearly all-white areas most of their lives) would fall into: namely, since we 1) don't know that much about the black experience and 2) sincerely don't want to offend, the writer paints the characters in such a good light that they aren't believable. That was my feeling in this book, anyway. While Debra and her boyfriend were great people, they were almost too great--and too good looking, etc, bordering on sainthood at times. To me, that was unbelievable, and I felt it was done to avoid giving any impression of prejudice on the author's part, or to avoid offending anyone, or whatever. The result was cardboard, in some respects. When another black character was introduced much later, my gut reaction was, "I bet he's good looking and a saint, too," and I was right. (I loved this character, by the way, but having him also so good looking made me roll my eyes--I wanted him to be at least homely, or maybe overweight, or balding, anything.) It's a tough line to walk, and frankly, I admire Linda for even attempting it. I'm a bit too chicken right now to try the juggling act myself. But I also think that in order to have believable characters of any kind, they must have at least a "wart" or two, if you know what I mean. So here's the question, which I think piggy-backs on Linda's: Once we know enough to to write about the culture believably, how can we do it without offending those readers who belong to that culture? I worry, because there are a *handful* of hyper-sensitive people out there, ready to think any white person is prejudiced--that any negative would be construed as a blanket statement or an attack. Do we ignore those people and hope for the best? I'm thinking of an experience my brother had in basic training. (He is one of the least prejudiced people I know, and several of his close friends are black.) One morning he and a black man were shaving, and the black man was inspecting several ingrown hairs in his face. "Man, that's really gotta suck," my brother said. Instead of seeing sympathy, the other man saw prejudice. He turned on my brother and let out a several-minute spew about how he was proud of his heritage, etc. If an innocent comment can incite that kind of response, I can only imagine the reaction from someone looking for prejudice in a book--and "finding" it. That's one reason I haven't tried writing about a black character yet. I don't dare make them less than perfect, and that's not good writing. Don't give up, Linda. Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] I'm Back Date: 20 Nov 2000 15:33:14 -0800 (PST) For those who have been wondering where the cranky R.W. Rasband posts have gone (not that I expect anyone to miss them that much) I have been in the hospital the last four weeks due to a severe diabetic reaction. If you ever want to have a strange feeling, try waking up from a coma after five days to discover yourself in the hospital without memories of those lost days. I am feeling better now, so stand by for more darn opinionated stuff. R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 20 Nov 2000 17:01:01 -0700 Responding to Linda Adams: <<>> Whew, Linda, I'm glad I didn't offend you. When I thought about my post later, I cringed a little and thought it was probably a bit too opinionated for the small amount of your novel I've read so far (I've been suffering a lot of e-mail cringe this past week or two). I will do some kind of a review on AML-List when I'm done (I noticed Irreantum already did a favorable review). It's easy to be negative and say how things don't meet our hopes and expectations and high standards. I'd even go so far as to change the old saying, "Those who can't do, teach," to "Those who can't do, review." (cringe) By the way, I don't know if I ever properly thanked you, Linda, for the feedback on my first-draft novel ms. at Worldsmiths (www.wwno.com/worldsmit hs, for anyone else looking for a writing group---it's regrouping right now after some large novel mss. apparently scared some people off, and we could use more active participants---right, D. Michael, moderator?). Your posts, Linda, are all carefully printed and filed for when I turn to the big rewrite (wow, my first novel rewrite) sometime early next year (after I finish a nonfiction missionary memoir I'm currently putting together). Your comments were among the most thoughtful and useful, and I really appreciate them (I only regret I don't have them through the ms.'s conclusion!). Cringe, shudder, SEND-- Chris - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 20 Nov 2000 17:43:35 -0700 Todd Petersen's message struck a chord with me. I am one who has for a long time actively avoided the label Intellectual. I am afraid that I have gained the title of ward Intellectual despite my best efforts (that's what I get for being Gospel Doctrine teacher--easy to look smart when you know what questions are headed your way...). It didn't help when Todd, in his plea for understanding, undermined his message by attacking other groups I actively champion (I'll leave it to you to decide whether I'm a gun-toting redneck, PBS nay-sayer, or NASCAR fan). It seems that I can't avoid coming under fire as an intellectual or coming under fire by the intellectuals. The thing is, Todd is right that there is a certain anti-Intellectualism in the church. I am disturbed when people tell me that they could *never* understand Isaiah. I don't like the comfort people give each other when they all chime in about how dense they are as if that were a good thing. I don't like it because they are essentially saying that they don't have anything new to learn, or at least that they can't possibly learn anything more. Their progress has essentially stopped and that is frightening in a gospel sense. But just as wrong is the position I see some intellectuals take that they don't have to learn any more because they've already learned all the important answers, and any answers they don't know already certainly aren't going to come from some plebe in Sunday School with dirt under his finger nails. It is every bit as destructive as not learning any more because it is too hard. I enjoy learning. I read a lot (which is why I joined this list) and I like to talk about things I've read. But I don't really want to acquire the label intellectual. You see, there is certain baggage that goes with that label. Intellectuals fight the hardest battles in the church. Intellectuals have a tougher fight with pride than most people give them credit for. Intellectuals have to fight to not try to run people's lives for them. They have to fight to demur to policies that don't make intellectual sense based on currently accepted scientific/social knowledge. They have to fight to express themselves adequately to those around them without alienating them. Because intellectuals have the toughest battles, they have the most spectacular defeats. It doesn't help that a small segment of people who consider themselves intellectual can make themselves look awful silly and it certainly doesn't help that intellectuals often find themselves walking out on the gospel as they gradually substitute their own learning for the church hierarchy. But I don't think that the solution to the problem is to develop better understanding of intellectuals or of anti-intellectuals. I don't think that it will help us very much if we bring both camps into a room to fight it out or defend their position as well as they can. I think that the root of the problem is the line being drawn in the first place. Naming someone an intellectual is a way of distancing ourselves from them. That way, we don't have to feel guilty that we aren't learning as much as we should. On the other hand, naming someone anti-intellectual is just as damaging. It allows us to ignore their opinions and not have to deal with uncomfortable discussions with those of, um, unfortunate intellect. Speaking of Gospel Doctrine, a recent lesson dealt with the break-up of the ideal society when the Nephites finally re-divided back into "ites". Dividing ourselves up along arbitrary lines is a way of simplifying our lives at the expense of unjustly judging others. Demonizing each other just isn't a good idea and is not conducive to understanding, regardless of what the groups gurus have to say... Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 20 Nov 2000 20:43:30 -0700 >> Potok, Chaim, The Chosen I admit that its been a couple of years, but I think any aspiring LDS artist ought to read Potok's "My Name is Asher Lev," as much to be prepared as to be inspired. :-) Maybe another year and it'll be time for me to pick it up again. Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 20 Nov 2000 20:58:17 -0700 >-----Original Message----- > >Here here. > >Todd is absolutely right. We're on the List because we share a >love of good literature. And we disagree on the List because we >think different sorts of literature are good. And some of us are >professors and some of us are fans and some of us are writers and >some of us have Ph. D.'s and some of us don't. What we have in >common is a love for good writing, specifically writing in a >particular cultural context. We can, do and should disagree. But >we have no business judging each other. > >Look, I'm an outspoken cuss, and I have very strong opinions, and >I make a fool of myself all the time. I may very well have >offended some of you, and if that's so, I regret it more than you >can know, and I beg your forgiveness. But I try, I really do try, >not to judge anyone. And that's what bothers me so much about so Eric says: >And I know I'm a broken record on this. But it seems to me to be >unworthy and unrighteous to suggest that people who like stuff we >don't like are, on the one hand, gross immoralists reveling in the >worst aspects of human existence or, on the other hand, vapid >sentimentalists afraid to embrace the ugliest, but truest, aspects >of human existence. I'm interested in how at odds with our teachings vis a vis the Gospel this concept is. We don't hesitate, but boldy declare to the world, that our religion is something they need. Publically, we no longer lambast the "secular" religions, but privately, I still we (as a Church) believe that other religions, though having good aspects to them, are somehow inferior to ours. I used to teach people in France that "there were two church only," and the clear implication is that the Catholic Church was "of the Devil." Yet some of us get gun-shy when it comes to proclaiming that a certain defintion of art is right and others are wrong. I understand that many people seem to like the WFW, but is that how we just entertainment, based on the number of its adherents. We certainly don't do that regliously -- we set up certain standards and if youre belief system doesn't fit those standards, then we try to change you. Why shouldn't Mormon artists be as missionary minded about what constitutes good art as they are about what constitutes true religion? > Scott Card is an old friend of mine, but I >don't appreciate being told that American Beauty is an evil movie >and that I'm depraved for enjoying it. Neither do I but it's because Card is plain wrong in his assessment of that film. > By the same token, I don't >get to sneer at folks who like Edgar Guest's poetry, or who enjoy >Rick Evans' novels. If someone were to get up in Church and say, "I'm going to share some true Gospel with you" and then they go on to talk about how you can only be a Republican and a good Mormon, that would be unacceptable wouldn't it. But somehow it's exceptable when someone stands up and reads something from "Especially for Mormons" and has the audacity to call it a poem? >And that's the problem with morally based criticism. If we >declare a work of art (which isn't sentient, after all, which >hasn't agency, which is just an artifact,a thing, that sits there >on the nightstand with circular hot chocolate mug stains on the >dust cover) immoral, if we say 'that >novel/movie/poem/song/symphony/sculpture is immoral', then we must >of necessity declare those who created and/or admire it similarly >immoral. And I just don't think that's something we get to do in >this life, except perhaps in the most carefully qualified >'just-expressing-my-opinion-and-concern' sort of way. I agree with you. Art isn't inherently moral. I would be utterly opposed to disqualifying any work of art on that basis. But art can be of good quality or of bad quality. In either case, it makes no differnece the number of people who like the art or not -- it is entirely an issue of what constitutes good art. In art, as in religion, I believe there are certain absolutes. As didactic as the above may sound, I also want to go on record as saying that I'm not prepared to dictate what good art is for everyone else. I know good art when I see it, but I see it only through my own eyes. I know I don't a lot of the Gospel's absolutes truths correct; I'm sure I also don't fully understand the nature of true art. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. Date: 21 Nov 2000 00:36:31 -0700 Annette Lyon wrote: > Once we know > enough to to write about the culture believably, how can we do it without > offending those readers who belong to that culture? I worry, because there > are a *handful* of hyper-sensitive people out there, ready to think any > white person is prejudiced--that any negative would be construed as a > blanket statement or an attack. Do we ignore those people and hope for the > best? Yes--absolutely, positively, yes! We ignore those people. Someone will always be offended by what you write. If you write the most bland, inoffensive stuff you can think of to avoid offense, someone will be offended that it's bland and unoffensive. You cannot win if you worry about offending someone. Do your homework, get it right, be fair to the characters (all the characters, not just the ethnic ones), then write, and the hypersensitive be damned. I recently met a black person who impressed me greatly: Darius Gray. He has recommended that we expand our literature to include people of other races and nationalities. If I succumb to the fear of offending the hypersensitive, I risk offending Darius because I pretend blacks don't exist. Whose opinion of my work would mean more to me, his or those who are looking for any excuse to be offended? Anyone who would be offended by my honest effort to depict blacks or other races and nationalities realistically is someone whose opinion matters little to me. Pointing out mistakes I've made in my attempt is fine. But trying taking offense at every word--who cares about such a person? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Spec. Fiction & Mysteries Date: 21 Nov 2000 01:17:57 -0700 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > > Responding to B.J. Rowley: > <<<>> > > I picked up the term from others, but my understanding is that it's basically science ficiton and fantasy with Mormon elements (I'm sure others could define it much better). The term "science fiction" got its origin from H.G. Wells calling his books "scientific romances." Eventually the term worked its way through the barbaric "scientifiction" into what we have today: science fiction. Science fiction is literature that asks "what if?" questions about science, then explores the consequences: What if we could go back in time, could we change history? If we could travel through interstellar space and run into alien beings, how would the first contact go? Generally, science fiction requires the author to make some passing attempt to scientifically justify the fantastic element in the story. Fantasy is the same thing, except it makes no attempt to justify the fantastic element. It's "magic." Mark Twain's _A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" is fantasy because it made no attempt to justify the backward time traveling of the protagonist. H.G. Wells' _The Time Machine_ is science fiction because it made a very credible attempt (for the science of that time) to make time travel sound plausible. Those who don't understand relativity and quantum physics may still find the attempt credible. Over the years, the boundary between science fiction and fantasy has blurred greatly, and the boundaries of each genre have expanded into areas not traditionally considered part of them. To make sense of this confusion, the term "speculative fiction" was coined to include all of it: anything that speculates about something we don't know is true, or know for sure it isn't true. There is much crossover among readers and authors between science fiction and fantasy; most bookstores group the two together on the shelf. The new category makes practical sense. Those of us who have been bandying the term "LDS speculative fiction" about generally think of it in the same way: any literature that speculates about things of an LDS nature that we don't know are true or know are not true, but we want to imagine what would happen if they were. It would include LDS science fiction and fantasy, but go beyond that as well. It could also include theological speculation: something which isn't science, but we can't call fantasy either, because we believe in the supernatural nature of our religion. LDS speculative fiction is literature which asks the question "What if such and such were true?" about something which is related to the LDS religion, theology, or culture, then explores the consequences of that supposition. I would add, it also has the LDS audience in mind as its market. I wouldn't consider Orson Scott Card's speculative fiction to be LDS speculative fiction, even if it has Mormon elements to it, because it's geared to a general audience. I would classify it as mainstream speculative fiction that is written by an LDS author. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 21 Nov 2000 07:54:53 -0200 > This subject doesn=B4t depends on being Mormon or not...I think we are dicussing a lot about the relaction between intellectualism and mormism...This isn=B4t the topic... I think the topic is: People, independent of their religion or education have to learn to respect the ability of othe people in appreciate all the arts...and never should forget that the ability depends on the opportunities these people have been having in their lives and a little ability in interpretate more sofisticated art doesn=B4t make these peolple stupid. Remember, when you were a little boy or a girl you read some books at school that you needed a dicitionary to help to understand strange words. Suddenly these words got easier and easier and your English become better day by day, and allows you have a more capacity of understand the world than other people that weren=B4t submitted to this process of learning. For Example: I=B4m 30 now...and I=B4m reading (in English) - The Portrait of the Art as a Young Man - James Joice...All the time I need the dictionary to understand some "strange" words that I need to Know to understand the context. When I read pocket books (trash) I don=B4t have this problem... I think my Eglish has a poor vocabulary...a high school vocabulary...and I=B4m in the processo of learning it... Am I supid? Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] KINGSOLVER, _The Poisonwood Bible_ Date: 21 Nov 2000 08:46:15 -0500 Last name Kingsolver What amazed me was that they hadn't even seen the book. They had heard that it had a negative view of the Bible, or was anti-Christian, or contained too much this-that-and-the-other, or wasn't uplifting....... None of which I agree with, BTW. But, they didn't even bother to find out for themselves. (I read it because it was on my dentist's recommended reading list.) We had a friend who visited UT this summer but didn't go see God's Army because a few of her friends totally badmouthed it. I'm not really sure if those friends had bothered to see it or what they were basing their opinion on. When it finally got to OH she went to see it and really enjoyed it. (As most people I talked to did.) It was so popular with the members it was held over several weeks. I guess the point is, you can only trust other's opinions so far. And everyone has to find their own balance between missing a few good things to avoid all that might be bad, or hitting a few things that we might personally find distasteful in order to find the things of worth. Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- [MOD: Is the author of this book Kingsolver or Kingslover? Or something else? I've seen at least these two spellings.] Tracie Laulusa writes: > > And I loved the Poisonwood Bible. Would it surprise you to know > > that many of my LDS friends won't touch it with a ten-foot pole? Eileen Stringer responds: > It would surprise me indeed. We are reading it right now for our > Relief Society bookgroup and the feedback about it has been > positive. Not one disparaging remark for it yet. It came to us > highly recommended from a member of our Stake RS Presidency. > > I am certainly enjoying it. I find this most fascinating. This is the book that prompted Kristen Randle to declare: > As I read her, I wondered if I could write my own God as > passionately, as concretely as she writes her own bitterness > and disappointment. I don't think I can. I'm not sure I > should. Her full comments on this were posted to the list a few months ago. To see such a polarized reaction from other readers just proves to me once again that most of what we get from art is a reflection of what we bring to it. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Date: 20 Nov 2000 17:18:34 -0700 The pornography in Utah county thread was closed down, but the discussion there actually prompted some thoughts that are relevant enough to the list that I'd like to share them. The thing is, I think that it is absolutely possible to have every word of a work be true and yet, the message can turn out, if not actually false, at least misleading or misrepresentative. Since we are a church that still holds to that old hokey claim that Truth exists at all, this notion of writing has some interesting connotations for us. On the one hand, it is impossible to relate the whole truth in any work less massive than, well, something *really* massive. On the other, we do try very hard to be honest, even claiming in annual temple interviews that we strive for honesty in all our dealings. So for the Mormon market, the question becomes what are we willing to do in order to sell our work? Are you willing to restrict your art to the dark elements in our society if that is what sells? Personally, I'm tired of "modern realism". I skipped the rest of the latest Irreantum fiction section because I read the first story and found that while it was well enough written, I really dislike the faith-denuded Mormon experience narrative. I was afraid to try the next story for fear it would be along the same, quandary-loving vein. I should tread lightly here as Paul Rawlins is probably going to read this. I was engaged by his story (Faith of the Fathers), but I kept waiting for *any* character actions to be informed by LDS theology. There was tradition there but no substance. The father in the story didn't do any of the things that I would have as a father. I'm as tired as some of you probably are of the blithe claim that "God has called xxx home" and the determinism that implies. But the other extreme of an absence of godly intervention isn't any more laudable. The story itself may be real/true enough. The father's actions are plausible enough for an individual. But the implication of the story (beginning with the title) is that this is a general experience with LDS faith and that message is wrong. The gospel has a lot to say about God, death, justice, purpose, and comfort in mourning. The father in this story did nothing at all to find any of it, understand any of it, let alone communicate any of it to his obviously wounded daughter. Certainly such a father may exist and may be my next door neighbor who is active in the church. But the message is that this is a representation of faithful fathers in the church. I don't think it is. "Faith of the Fathers" is well written--well crafted--but I'm not going to read any more of these stories. And since that was the first fiction story in Irreantum, I assume that it is representative of what the editors wanted to present, so I just didn't bother with the others. My apologies to those authors, but I can't handle the continuing messages about my faith that are devoid of an active, loving, comforting God anymore. The most powerful message of the gospel is that God *does* exist. He is real. And He wants, even requires, a personal relationship with each of us. That doesn't mean that we are always happy, but it really does mean that we don't have to be always sad. Write all you want about shaking faith and people learning that the tradition is not enough or that common traditions just don't hold up when reality deals harsh blows. But don't expect me to give you my attention while you do. Frankly, I'm tired of shaken faith stories as a whole. But most particularly I am tired of the ones that leave you at the bottom of the lost-faith cycle with no resolution in sight. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Meredith Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 21 Nov 2000 11:09:50 -0800 (PST) I read that she had committed suicide. -Kathleen Meredith - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Advice to Writers from Salon Journalist Tara Zahra Date: 21 Nov 2000 14:11:26 EST Kent Larsen, in a post to Mormon News, discussed the first of a series of Salon articles on religion in the US, which included a look at LDS missionaries serving in Prague. In one article, journalist Tara Zahra wrote that an Elder Mattingly asks her advice on a potential career as a science fiction writer. She tells him to expect a lot of rejection. He immediately responds, "That's OK, I'm used to rejection." The complete articles are at: Faith in America, by Amy Standen Salon 20Nov00 http://www.salon.com:80/people/feature/2000/11/20/religion_intro/index.html and When the saints go marching in, by Tara Zahra Salon 20Nov00 http://www.salon.com:80/people/feature/2000/11/20/mormons/index.html Mormon-News is at http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Addressing Race in Mormon Lit. Date: 21 Nov 2000 13:47:58 -0600 At 02:37 PM 11/17/00, you wrote: >I enjoyed reading about the black character's in Linda Adams' _Prodigal >Journey_, but to me there was a problem that I am afraid many of us (white >Mormons who have lived in nearly all-white areas most of their lives) would >fall into: namely, since we 1) don't know that much about the black >experience and 2) sincerely don't want to offend, the writer paints the >characters in such a good light that they aren't believable. Thanks, Annette, for pointing this out. I'm not sure I did this on purpose, consciously, but you're exactly right. Here's something amusing that illustrates this. When Debra was "white," in the original version, her house was very messy. Not dirty--just the lived-in messy a busy Mormon family of seven can be. I *tidied up the house* because I was afraid that could be taken the wrong way, especially since she is the first black character I introduce. "Oh--she must think black people are messy." No, I don't! I think it's hard to keep a house clean with five kids and endless meetings. But. I changed that. So you could say, in some ways, I did make them more "perfect" than I originally wrote them. >When another black character was introduced much later, my gut reaction was, >"I bet he's good looking and a saint, too," and I was right. (I loved this >character, by the way, but having him also so good looking made me roll my >eyes--I wanted him to be at least homely, or maybe overweight, or balding, >anything.) The "good-looking" part I really hadn't thought about, which strikes me as funny. (I'm a person who thinks just about everybody is good-looking in their own way.) That's just how I "saw" Bert in my mind's eye--it was a completely unconscious decision. I'll pay more attention to this in the sequel as new characters are introduced. --On a side note, Debra's dad was overweight and balding :-) but had such a tiny part he's forgettable. There's a black pastor and his wife in there too, in the section Bert is in, who are minor characters and not painted as overly attractive or "saintly" (they're a little odd), but I was consciously aware of wondering how they would be perceived as well. Are they going to be taken as stereotypes? Or not? >It's a tough line to walk, and frankly, I admire Linda for even >attempting it. I'm a bit too chicken right now to try the juggling act >myself. But I also think that in order to have believable characters of any >kind, they must have at least a "wart" or two, if you know what I mean. Without saying too much, Jon and Debra's "warts" really will show up in the sequel, where they have much more to face than they have so far. You may find them more believable. But OTOH, I'm having to dig deeper into their minds and hearts to develop them than I did, and I'm coming up with things I don't know the answers to, which is how this thread got started. >So here's the question, which I think piggy-backs on Linda's: Once we know >enough to to write about the culture believably, how can we do it without >offending those readers who belong to that culture? I worry, because there >are a *handful* of hyper-sensitive people out there, ready to think any >white person is prejudiced--that any negative would be construed as a >blanket statement or an attack. Do we ignore those people and hope for the >best? I think we have to ignore that small handful, the same as I ignore readers who are offended because there's a couple of "d*mn's" in my book, or that sex "happens" in it, even if it's behind closed doors. BUT we have to be as true to the culture as possible. No, I will never actually know what it's like to be black from actual experience. I hope that I can learn enough so that my writing will resonate with truth with the black community (when that's part of my subject). I also hope that just the fact that I use multicultural characters and try to pull it off believably should tell anyone reading it that I am not in any way prejudiced. But yes, there is still a fear that someone will take it the wrong way. I mean, if I have Debra cook fried chicken, someone out there will say I'm stereotyping. Even if the chicken was, really, just chicken. There's always that fear, no matter what the issue is, and that somebody will be offended somewhere is almost a given. It's just that racial issues are more touchy areas than anything else I can think of. >I'm thinking of an experience my brother had in basic training. (He is >one of the least prejudiced people I know, and several of his close friends >are black.) One morning he and a black man were shaving, and the black man >was inspecting several ingrown hairs in his face. "Man, that's really gotta >suck," my brother said. Instead of seeing sympathy, the other man saw >prejudice. He turned on my brother and let out a several-minute spew about >how he was proud of his heritage, etc. If an innocent comment can incite >that kind of response, I can only imagine the reaction from someone looking >for prejudice in a book--and "finding" it. The really sad thing here is whatever happened in this man's life that caused him to be so sensitive to it that he felt he had to defend himself. Prejudice is unfortunately still alive and well in this country. It's more subtle than it used to be, but I run into it more frequently, in little ways, than I wish was true. I hope, until we have our "own" Toni Morrison, to do what I can to create believable characters of all races. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 21 Nov 2000 12:48:57 -0600 >By the way, I don't know if I ever properly thanked you, Linda, for the >feedback on my first-draft novel ms. at Worldsmiths >(www.wwno.com/worldsmiths, for anyone else looking for a writing >group--. [snip] Your comments were among the most thoughtful and useful, >and I really appreciate them (I only regret I don't have them through the >ms.'s conclusion!). Thanks, Chris--I've downloaded the rest and plan to finish up (to see how it ends!) but probably won't get around to it until January. :-) Remind me! Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean FH Macy Subject: [AML] Re: [AML-Mag] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 21 Nov 2000 14:56:23 -0500 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > Frankly, I'm tired of shaken faith stories as a whole. But most particularly > I am tired of the ones that leave you at the bottom of the lost-faith cycle > with no resolution in sight. AMEN!!!! -- http://www.mp3.com/stations/epilogue_records_artistshtml "The great danger for humans is that we will walk by the light of our own understanding." (H. Wallace Goddard) AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN The Hand of Providence: Deseret Book Press Release Date: 21 Nov 2000 14:11:26 EST [From Mormon-News] THE HAND OF PROVIDENCE A Novel by Ron Carter Volume 4 in The Prelude To Glory Series SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- Continuing his popular fictional Revolutionary War series, Ron Carter reimagines the Battle of Saratoga in THE HAND OF PROVIDENCE (Bookcraft/October 2000/$22.95.) An event that historians believe changed the history of the world, the Batle of Saratoga is brought to vivid life by Carter's winning blend of deftly drawn characters, enthralling adventure, and riveting historical details. THE HAND OF PROVIDENCE reflects the trials and triumphs of war through the eyes of two brave American heroes, Billy and Eli, who give conflict a human dimension. Here we see the brilliant strategies and cunning tricks of men in both armies -- from General Arthur St. Clair, to General Benedict Arnold, to British General John Burgoyne -- and we learn fascinating facts about the customs of the Iroquois tribes who fought in the Revolution. THE HAND OF PROVIDENCE further illuminates the action with background notes for every chapter, as well as maps and illustrations. Following America's magnificent victories at Trenton and Princeton, King George III orders General Burgoyne and a large army to move south from Canada to take Fort Ticonderoga and isolate the New England states. In this and other battles throughout THE HAND OF PROVIDENCE, Ron Carter's meticulous research comes to life, as he takes us to the front lines, where we learn the strategies of war: "There are three ways to take a fort such as Ticonderoga," General Burgoyne says, "tunnel underneath and set mines, breach the walls with heavy artillery, or place it under siege." One of Carter's most skillfully etched characters, British General John Burgoyne is an enigma: a playwright and ladies' man who is also coldly calculating. Opposing Burgoyne is American General Arthur St. Clair, a brilliant, unpredictable force. Burgoyne takes Fort Ticonderoga in a masterful mission, but he is unprepared for the American retaliation. Now the stage is set for the pivotal battle of Saratoga, where the American and British armies fight brutally, and the Americans -- with less than half the army of the British -- stun the world by defeating Burgoyne, crediting their victory to "the Hand of Providence." Offering a warm contrast to war, THE HAND OF PROVIDENCE also follows the struggles of loved ones left behind: a beautiful widow searching for a new life with an old friend, devoted mothers praying for the return of their sons, a young American woman suffering over her love for a British captain. Here Carter weaves his narrative with high emotion, portraying the pain of separation that is inevitable in wartime. This sweeping saga will stir the imagination and even touch the hearts of readers of all ages, offering colorful characters and breathtaking action at every turn. An extraordinary portrayal of one of the most influential events in American history, THE HAND OF PROVIDENCE is a tale that will be treasured for years to come. # # # About the Author Ron Carter holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from Brigham Young University and attended law school at George Washington University and the University of Utah. He practiced law for 25 years concluding his legal career with seven years in research and writing for judges in the Los Angeles County court system. He also served one term as a State Senator in the Idaho legislature. He is the author of fourteen books, including "The Youngest Drover," a title that was placed on the ALA "Booklist," and authorized by the California State Department of Education for use in teaching high school history courses. His other works include mysteries and humor for children, young adults, and adults. He is married to LaRae Dunn Carter, and they have nine children and twenty-three grandchildren. Ron Carter lives in Park City, Utah. See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573457833/mormonnews More about Ron Carter's "The Hand of Providence: A Novel" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Date: 21 Nov 2000 13:30:18 -0700 Responding to Jacob Proffitt: <<>> As managing editor of Irreantum, let me just say that we publish stories all across the spectrum, including some excerpts from novels published by Deseret Book. To write off the magazine's fiction offerings because one story doesn't fit your desired mode would be a mistake. Frankly, we are by no means swimming in fiction submissions and are publishing at least half if not the majority of what we receive, and we were particularly honored to have a nationally prominent author like Paul Rawlins let us consider one of his stories. <<<"Faith of the Fathers" is well written--well crafted--but I'm not going to read any more of these stories. And since that was the first fiction story in Irreantum, I assume that it is representative of what the editors wanted to present, so I just didn't bother with the others. My apologies to those authors, but I can't handle the continuing messages about my faith that are devoid of an active, loving, comforting God anymore.>>> Bad assumption. Like I said, we are covering the full spectrum of Mormon lit. Tory Anderson is our fiction editor, and I don't know if he's on this list, but I'm CCing him with this (and forwarding your original message) in case he would like to respond. >From my editorial in the winter '99-'00 issue: We do not intend to pigeonhole Irreantum as either culturally liberal or conservative. We want to give orthodox books, authors, and presses as much attention and respect as we give liberal books, authors, and presses. We consider ourselves more free to explore a wide range of Mormon literature than a magazine sponsored by BYU, for example, yet we do not want to make mainstream LDS readers and writers uncomfortable with our publication. We are seeking the middle ground, the temperate zones between the equator of Church-sanctioned publishing and the nether poles. That zone has room for active Mormons writing orthodox fiction (for example, Gerald Lund), active or semiactive Mormons writing liberal fiction for the Mormon market (Linda Sillitoe), active Mormons writing fiction for national audiences (Orson Scott Card), inactive Mormons writing for national audiences (Walter Kirn), and members of other faiths writing about Mormon characters and themes (Tony Kushner). We are interested in all literature by, for, or about Mormons and in general literature seen through Mormon eyes. Therefore you will see reviews, essays, interviews, poetry, and fiction in Irreantum from a wide variety of cultural perspectives. We hope that if you encounter something in Irreantum that is either too spicy or too bland for your tastes, you will trust the magazine to offer an overall satisfying mix as time goes forward. Personally, I am most interested in how Mormon authors and subjects are breaking into the national literary scene. But I and other Irreantum staffers are also keenly interested in the large and healthy industry that publishes products for the mainstream LDS audience, and we hope Irreantum can influence the developing tastes of those readers (so far the magazine is carried in about 20 LDS bookstores). Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] Real People Date: 21 Nov 2000 13:17:03 -0800 (PST) --- Dallas Robbins wrote: > One > that has been > fascinating me for the past couple months is the > Jewish-American novel, > which I primarily see in Saul Bellow, Issac Singer > and Phillip Roth. For > the past week I've been reading "The Human Stain," > the latest by Roth, and > have found it fascinatng. There is no pretense, no > gimmicks, no tricks, > just straight forward rich prose giving life to > complicated characters, > dealing with the big questions of life, death, > identity, morality and sex. > I wouldn't recommend this book to everyone, but if > you crave for something > honest and real it would fit the bill. > Boy, I couldn't agree more. "The Human Stain" is the best novel I've read this year. Roth presents a dizzying array of wit, satire, tragedy, morality, and compassion, all by the best writer of English sentences now living. That he didn't win the Nobel prize this year is a crime. When I read Roth and Singer (and to a lesser extent Bellow) I feel like I'm reading my cousins in faith. ==== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 21 Nov 2000 14:36:46 -0700 Thom Duncan wrote: > Why shouldn't Mormon artists be as missionary minded about what constitutes > good art as they are about what constitutes true religion? Ultimately, we believe that our religion is true because we believe it was delivered from God to us. Art, on the other hand, goes the other way -- it is delivered from us to God and to those around us. It is inherently limited by our level of understanding, our sensitivity to the Spirit, and our imperfect ability to communicate what we have learned from Father. The art we produce is a reflection of our understanding of truth. Being so narrow in scope, it will resonate with some and leave others cold. I think the best we can hope for is that it will invite the Spirit and thus persuade others to begin their own investigation of the truth. --Mike South - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brent J. Rowley" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Spec. Fiction & Mysteries Date: 21 Nov 2000 14:51:27 -0700 > > > Those of us who have been bandying the term "LDS speculative fiction" > about generally think of it in the same way: any literature that > speculates about things of an LDS nature that we don't know are true or > know are not true, but we want to imagine what would happen if they > were. It would include LDS science fiction and fantasy, but go beyond > that as well. It could also include theological speculation: something > which isn't science, but we can't call fantasy either, because we > believe in the supernatural nature of our religion. > > LDS speculative fiction is literature which asks the question "What if > such and such were true?" about something which is related to the LDS > religion, theology, or culture, then explores the consequences of that > supposition. In my opinion, this is exactly why LDS Speculative Fiction has NOT been very successful so far. Too many LDS readers are offended when authors (or anyone, for that matter) try to speculate about 'things holy.' It's okay to speculate, as long as you aren't toying with the gospel. The gospel is founded on absolute truth and is sacred and special, and it bothers people if we try to tinker with those truths. Obviously there are MANY LDS readers out there who enjoy speculative fiction (and fantasy), i.e. Star Wars, OSC, Dragon Lance, etc. And there are also MANY (probably the same ones) who equally enjoy LDS fiction. But sparks fly when you try to combine the two. It's offensive to ask, "What if such and such were true" in the LDS setting because members know it's not true, and don't want to hear about any other options. If you do, then your work is immediately suspect because you're trying to 'preach' something that isn't true. It threatens their testimony. Basically having the LDS element involved takes the fun out of it, and turns it into something bordering on sacrilegious. My own books are prime examples. When I originally wrote "My Body Fell Off!" I had no intention of classifying it at SF or Speculative or Fantasy. It was, after all, based on extensive research in an area that I came to consider pretty much documented real life. There really ARE people in the world who CAN astral project. It happens. It's not fantasy or science fiction. My only intention was to depict it, in this particular story, as being a "gift" and something that could be used for good. When Covenant first read and approved the manuscript, however, they all thought it was sheer fantasy -- great fun, and high adventure. By the time the sequel was ready for print, a year later, there had been some feedback, and all of a sudden alarms started going off. I had to revise the manuscript for both books and take out specific wording and references that readers might interpret as being presented as 'gospel truth.' The second manuscript was even passed along to a GA for review, and came back with some very interesting comments. It wasn't rejected, but required some careful rewording in order not to offend some people. Again, we're back to that same thing -- you can please some of the people some of the time, yada yada yada. Anyway, three months later, readers were apparently still offended by my material, and enough of them complained to DB about it that they made the decision to pull my books from their shelves. Covenant immediately responded to that by also pulling them from Seagull and dropping my series. I was suddenly out-of-print because I was "promoting occultism and satanism," and speculating about things that LDS readers "KNEW" weren't true. I stepped on their testimonies. It took me a year of painful soul searching, and much study and research and careful analysis to finally come to terms with the fact that this term "LDS Speculative Fiction" had been the real cause of my demise. I've since re-written the books, have recently added a third volume, and am now self-published and back on the shelf. But I first decided that if I was going to save this series, I had to take out one or the other of those two conflicting elements. So, unfortunately, the "LDS" part was sacrificed and is now gone. Even though the stories still take place largely in Utah county, and the protagonists are obviously Mormon teens (at least to an LDS reader), they never actually mention the church by name or use any of our conventional LDS terminology. They became generic. I still accomplish my goal, which is to provide wholesome, enlightening and uplifting entertainment to the youth of the church and beyond. And the books are still exciting and action-packed page-turners. But they're NOT "LDS Speculative Fiction." There was just no way I could succeed in the LDS market that way. Incidentally, Deseret Book higher-ups have read all three of the new, generic, rewritten books, and did not find any problems with them. The Light Traveler Adventure Series is now once again available in their bookstores. And I'm hoping that Seagull will soon see the light and take them on again, also. Most all other LDS bookstores are carrying them, and my fan mail continues to pour in -- full of praise and tribute. The bottom line is: "LDS Speculative Fiction" is a very hard row to hoe. OSC has been successful because he has so carefully disguised the gospel and church elements in his books. Dan Yates' "Angels" series is successful because he DOESN'T include the LDS element at all. So the stories are fun, tongue-in-cheek, generic speculative fiction. Lund only speculates about his fictional characters, not about the known and documented church history behind the stories. (Heimerdinger just got lucky, I think, by getting in so early.) As long as there are enough LDS readers out there who are sufficiently offended so as to cause a recall from bookshelves, LDS Speculative Fiction will not succeed in the general Mormon marketplace. LDS publishers (for the most part) are just not willing to have their names associated with potentially controversial material. And I can't say as I blame them. As much as it hurts, the old adage is still true: The Customer is Always Right. -BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 21 Nov 2000 15:04:20 -0700 Speaking of Especially for Mormons, I heard a radio ad for Seagull books yesterday. The ad was promoting a CD of all the volumes of EFM, and the copy said that many people considered it the Fifth Volume of Scripture. I didn't know if I should laugh or puke. I chose to laugh. Roy Schmidt >>> Thom Duncan 11/20/00 08:58PM >>> > somehow it's exceptable when someone stands up and reads something from "Especially for Mormons" and has the audacity to call it a poem? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Robert Petersen Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 21 Nov 2000 17:27:59 -0600 Mike South wrote: > Ultimately, we believe that our religion is true because we believe it was > delivered from God to us. Art, on the other hand, goes the other way -- it > is delivered from us to God and to those around us. It is inherently limited > by our level of understanding, our sensitivity to the Spirit, and our > imperfect ability to communicate what we have learned from Father. I'm a little mixed up. Does this mean that art can not be inspired or that it can't be the result of the spirit? I have a problem here because I think that art comes from a place very much like the place that my faith comes from. I think that the ability to see as an artist, can, in many ways, be a gift of the spirit. One of the big mistakes I think we make is thinking that art is its own thing, that it is set over on one side, away from most of the rest of things. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 21 Nov 2000 16:05:02 -0700 I just finished _Sarah_ and throughly enjoyed it. Also completed Ambrose's _Nothing Like It In the World_, a really good read. I am starting to re-read Card's _Stone Tablets_, and am still working my way through Nibley"s _Abraham in Egypt_. Roy - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] I'm Back Date: 20 Nov 2000 17:22:12 -0800 Welcome back! This is an awful situation. I'm diabetic, too, and always fear that I might experience such a thing. Of course, some think I write some of my reviews while in a coma, so maybe it's already happened. Glad you're better! At 03:33 PM 11/20/2000 -0800, you wrote: >For those who have been wondering where the cranky R.W. Rasband posts have >gone (not that I expect anyone to miss them that much) I have been in the >hospital the last four weeks due to a severe diabetic reaction. If you >ever want to have a strange feeling, t >ry waking up from a coma after five days to discover yourself in the >hospital without memories of those lost days. I am feeling better now, so >stand by for more darn opinionated stuff. > > > > >R.W. Rasband >Heber City, UT >rrasband@yahoo.com --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 21 Nov 2000 19:51:39 -0500 I must say I'm not a huge EFM fan. But, I know lots of people who are-my daughters included. It helps them express things that they don't seem to be able to express in other ways. Maybe they'll grow out of it, but I'm not holding my breath. They also read Shakespeare for entertainment, BTW, so it's not just a lack of education. They love it (EFM). It fills a need they have to express the things they are feeling and learning that they haven't found the words for yet. The books haven't sold all these years because nobody likes them. And though writers may find the verse somewhat lacking in style, the average Mormon person seems to find them understandable. I have read discussions about what poetry should or shouldn't be. Or what literature should or shouldn't be, for that matter. I don't have any answers. I *do* feel that it does absolutely no good to ridicule what others find entertaining and enlightening. I have tried reading a variety of poets over the past year-many Mormons among them. I'm afraid I find most of it inaccessible. I just don't understand it even though I very much want to. I wish more fine Mormon writers were writing on a level that can be understood by more people, instead of just to the 'intellectual' element amongst us. Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- Speaking of Especially for Mormons, I heard a radio ad for Seagull books yesterday. The ad was promoting a CD of all the volumes of EFM, and the copy said that many people considered it the Fifth Volume of Scripture. I didn't know if I should laugh or puke. I chose to laugh. Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 25 Sep 2000 10:30:26 -0600 Renato, you are most certainly *not* stupid. You are delightful. Your comments have added so much to the discourse. You are insightful and sensitive and you communicate very well in English. Keep reading and keep writing e-mails. Your point of view is important to me and to the list. Nan McCulloch -----Original Message----- [snip] I=B4m 30 now...and I=B4m reading (in English) - The Portrait of the Art as a Young Man - James Joice...All the time I need the dictionary to understand some "strange" words that I need to Know to understand the context. When I read pocket books (trash) I don=B4t have this problem... I think my Eglish has a poor vocabulary...a high school vocabulary...and I=B4m in the processo of learning it... Am I supid? Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 21 Nov 2000 19:49:12 -0700 --------------31E0CDB0174DE20DDCE940D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharlee: I can't agree with you more about the titles of YA lit you recommend. I'm finishing up a fellowship project about contemporary YA lit and Joan Bauer is one of my favorite authors. Also included on that list Carol Lynch Williams (LDS), Margaret Peterson Haddix, Christopher Paul Curtis, Will Hobbs, Kimberly Willis Holt, and (need I say this) J. K. Rowling. I also must agree about the last little bit of Poisonwood Bible. I felt she got to the climax, then just kept going on too long. Buy, overall, I really enjoyed the book. As for other books, I just finished Margaret Truman's Murder in Foggy Bottom. I've just discovered her political novels (she's the daughter of Bess and Harry S Truman) and they are great if you are into Washington D.C. intrigue. I also read Chris Heimerdinger's A Light in the Storm (sort of reminded me of the Mormon folklore about the hitchhiker's warning to gather food storage) and Anita Stansfield's A Star in Winter. Anita is a friend of mine and I envy her publishing history, but I think I need the main character, Helen, is a bit like Annette was saying about the character in Linda's book, a little too good to be true. I really wanted Helen to do something that made her relationship with Shayne hazy for awhile. I wanted more tension between them. Lu Ann Staheli --------------31E0CDB0174DE20DDCE940D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharlee:
     I can't agree with you more about the titles of YA lit you recommend. I'm finishing up a fellowship project about contemporary YA lit and Joan Bauer is one of my favorite authors. Also included on that list Carol Lynch Williams (LDS), Margaret Peterson Haddix, Christopher Paul Curtis, Will Hobbs, Kimberly Willis Holt, and (need I say this) J. K. Rowling.
     I also must agree about the last little bit of Poisonwood Bible. I felt she got to the climax, then just kept going on too long. Buy, overall, I really enjoyed the book.
     As for other books, I just finished Margaret Truman's Murder in Foggy Bottom. I've just discovered her political novels (she's the daughter of Bess and Harry S Truman) and they are great if you are into Washington D.C. intrigue.
     I also read Chris Heimerdinger's A Light in the Storm (sort of reminded me of the Mormon folklore about the hitchhiker's warning to gather food storage) and Anita Stansfield's A Star in Winter. Anita is a friend of mine and I envy her publishing history, but I think I need the main character, Helen, is a bit like Annette was saying about the character in Linda's book, a little too good to be true. I really wanted Helen to do something that made her relationship with Shayne hazy for awhile. I wanted more tension between them.
    Lu Ann Staheli
  --------------31E0CDB0174DE20DDCE940D0-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 21 Nov 2000 21:29:41 -0700 renatorigo wrote: >I=B4m 30 now...and I=B4m reading (in English) - The Portrait of the Art >as a Young Man - James Joice...All the time I need the dictionary to >understand some "strange" words that I need to Know to understand >the context. When I read pocket books (trash) I don=B4t have this >problem... I think my English has a poor vocabulary...a high school >vocabulary...and I=B4m in the process of learning it... > >Am I stupid? Are you willing to accept that a word you don't understand may havemeaning to someone else, even though you don't understand it at thismoment? Are you able to understand that a single word can have more than onemeaning, and that it's a good thing to know multiple word meanings,even if you only use one meaning in your own speech? If you answered "yes" to either question, then you're not stupid. As others have pointed out, there's a difference between uneducatedand stupid (though many alleged intellectuals don't seem to havefigured that out). There is nothing wrong with being uneducated, but I think there *is*something wrong with refusing to learn new things. And I thinkthere's something *very* wrong with assuming that your refusal tolearn somehow makes your view of the world "purer" or more valuablesimply because you make no attempt to learn. And make no mistake about it, this unwillingness to learn is aproblem for both the educated and the uneducated. I know many peoplewith a great many facts in their heads and extraordinary mentalcapacity who still refuse to learn any new thing, or are unwilling toaccept that other perspectives are also valid. One can be stupid and educated at the same time. Many are. As with every discussion of this kind, people rush to their favoriteextreme and recall every instance where a stupid person has madetheir life hard, or has insulted them for their opinion. But remember, it happens both ways. Education no more makes someoneintelligent than a lack of if makes someone stupid. The question is,are you willing to learn? To me, that makes all difference--especially in this forum. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Spec. Fiction & Mysteries Date: 22 Nov 2000 01:13:39 -0700 "Brent J. Rowley" wrote: >In my opinion, this is exactly why LDS Speculative Fiction has NOT been very successful so far. Too many LDS readers are offended when authors (or anyone, for that matter) try to speculate about 'things holy.' It's okay to speculate, as long as you aren't toying with the gospel... >My own books are prime examples. When I originally wrote "My Body Fell Off!" I had no intention of classifying it at SF or Speculative or Fantasy. It was, after all, based on extensive research in an area that I came to consider pretty much documented real life. There really ARE people in the world who CAN astral project. It happens. It's not fantasy or science fiction. My only intention was to depict it, in this particular story, as being a "gift" and something that could be used for good. I can only speak theoretically, because we don't have enough collective experience to know for sure. But I would be reticent to generalize your experience to LDS speculative fiction generally. Two reasons: one, you speculated in an area that is considered occult (read: anathema to Mormons), and two, you didn't classify it as speculative fiction, which left open the possibility that you were really trying to promote occult ideas (which in a way you were, since you accept astral projection as a reality). I would have to question whether the same reaction would occur if the book was clearly labeled as speculative fiction and the speculation was over something less alarming than synthesizing occult concepts into the Gospel. To many Mormons' minds, what you did was a mild version of speculating, "What if God were really Satan?" You tried to mix things which are holy and which are evil and make them fit together (remember, I'm trying to imagine the point of view of offended readers--I'm not expressing my personal judgment on your beliefs about astral projection). I'm sure calling astral projection a gift of the Spirit seemed to be exactly that to many readers. Hopefully, speculation on a less polarizing subject would have a more receptive audience, although I'm sure we've got some work ahead of us to build that audience and to deal with the onslaught of those who will be offended by even the most harmless speculation about Gospel matters. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:29:26 -0200 > Jacob wrote: > are we willing to do in order to sell our work? Are you willing to restrict your art to the dark elements in our society if that is what sells? Personally, I'm tired of "modern realism". Mormonism is a small society (0,18% of the global society). Of course that , we members of this society should transfer elements of it to our art but we can=B4t forget of the other caractheristics of our "telestial" world... For Example: I=B4m now reading a book called : Widow for a year... John Irving (I don=B4t know if it=B4s the real name in English. I simply translated the title of portuguese version into English). I really liked the book...In this book we have some scenes that isn=B4t proper to our faith...but a good writer has to sacrifice some of himself to show the truth... You don=B4t need to think about "marketing" or "selling" but you need to have an appointment with the truth... We don=B4t have to censure the bad things , we have to eliminate the bad things....After this , the censure should=B4t be useful anymore... Only my opinion...respecting yours... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN BYU university professorships named for prominent founders: Date: 22 Nov 2000 12:35:22 EST BYU Press Release 21Nov00 D3 [Excerpts from Mormon-News] BYU university professorships named for prominent founders PROVO, Utah (November 21, 2000) - A new program of naming university professorships after prominent founders of Brigham Young University has been announced by the Academic Vice President's Office. "All of these founders of BYU are worthy of our recognition, and we are pleased to be able to remember them through this program," said Richard N. Williams, Assistant to Associate Academic Vice President James D. Gordon III. "Their legacy is reflected in each of the professorships, just as the recipients' own accomplishments will reflect positively on them," he said. Previously, recipients of university professorships were allowed to name their professorship after someone of their own choice. The new program will allow continued remembrance of those who sacrificed much to make BYU possible, said Williams. The names of the professorships and the faculty members who currently hold them are: [...] * Susa Young Gates. Another daughter of Brigham Young, she was skilled in shorthand and served as secretary to her father. In 1878, Karl G. Maeser appointed her head of the Music Department at the academy, where she also organized the Domestic Science Department. She served on many Church boards and was the founder of the Young Women's Journal. Her legacy will be honored by [...] Robert Marshall, visual arts; [...] * Warren N. and Wilson H. Dusenberry. The brothers were born to pioneer parents and were the founders of Provo High School. Their other creation, the Timpanogos Branch of the University of Deseret, while short-lived, proved that a school could succeed in Provo and contributed to the founding of Brigham Young Academy. When the academy was chartered in 1875, Warren Dusenberry was the first principal during its experimental term. The Dusenberry legacy will be remembered in professorships held by [...] Todd Britsch, humanities, classics and comparative literature. [...] -###- >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Fishers of Men: Deseret Book Press Release Date: 22 Nov 2000 12:35:22 EST [From Mormon-News] Fishers of Men Volume 1 of The Kingdom and the Crown Historical Fiction by Bestselling Author Gerald N. Lund SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- Gerald N. Lund, whose bestselling historical fiction series "The Work and the Glory" has sold nearly 3 million copies, introduces a new series of historical fiction. "The Kingdom and the Crown" series begins with "Fishers of Men" (Shadow Mountain, $25.95), when a carpenter from Nazareth is being talked about as the Great Deliverer. Like a much-loved movie you see over and over, knowing the ending but finding new things to revel over each time you watch it, this story is both familiar and vibrantly new. We meet Jesus through the eyes and views of three families, who have heard about him -- with curiosity and some skepticism -- and then come to know him. Following the households in their daily lives, we learn about lifestyles, customs, religious practices, clothing, foods, and betrothal and marriage customs (including the tradition of lifting the bride's veil and the fact that the first prenuptial agreements date back to at least 400 years before Christ). This was a time in which the Jewish nation was divided and subdivided into groups that viewed each other with considerable suspicion if not open contempt. Dramatically different cultures were living together. Slavery was a common social institution. The story begins in the fall of A.D. 29. There is a great commotion as word spreads about a man called John the Baptist, who is saying that the long-promised Messiah has finally come. Lund provides chapter notes detailing the historic background of the developing story and referring to scriptures, the writing of early rabbinical sources, contemporary historians such as Philo and Flavius Josephus, and extensive archaeological excavations. He points out that the four gospels do not contain any description of either Jesus or his disciples, nor the ages for anyone except Jesus who was thirty when he began his ministry. Care was taken to keep the characters of real people consistent with what is known about them from scriptural record. In this first book in the series, the disciples are called. Andrew and Peter. James and John. Phillip. Nathanael. Bartholomew. James the son of Alphaeus. Simon. Observing those gathering around Jesus, one of the book's characters comments: "Every one different from the other. He's called fishermen. He's called Zealot. Now he's called a publican. Each of these men have now been called to follow Jesus and become fishers of men." These are the days of the changing of water into wine at a wedding feast; the healing of leprosy and palsy; blind men seeing; the sermon on the mount; the feeding of 5,000. These are the days of miracles. Crowds are now following Jesus, and the realization is dawning that "Jesus works these great miracles because he is the Messiah. He is not the Messiah because he works miracles." "Fishers of Men" concludes a few months later with a conversation between Simeon, the lead character, and Jesus on the seashore. Subsequent volumes will continue the story through the crucifixion and resurrection, and the ministry of the apostles that followed. # # # About the author: Gerald N. Lund earned degrees in sociology before pursuing postgraduate studies in Hebrew and the New Testament. He recently retired from a thirty-four year career in religious education in order to focus more fully on his writing. He is the author of "Fire of the Covenant" and "The Work and the Glory" series, which has sold nearly 3 million copies. See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573458201/mormonnews More about Gerald N. Lund's "Kingdom and the Crown Volume 1: Fishers of Men" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard C. Russell" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 21 Nov 2000 07:21:12 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 3:55 PM Intellectualism is a real problem for Mormons, because so often it starts resembling humanism, which looks like it's antithetical to the gospel. == The problem for Mormons IMO is that they are as afraid of pseudo threats as they are of real ones. Humanism understood is not only not antithetical to the gospel but Mormonism is the most humanist of all -- Humans are Gods in embryo. Man is a little lower than the angels. Man is God's greatest creation. God's whole purpose is directed toward the exaltation of human beings. Psalms 139:14 "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well." D&C 58:28 "For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward." Further, regarding an intellectual approach to religion: 1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" God gave us brains and failure to use them constitutes IMO an affront to Him. I don't know what is to be feared by acknowledging rational theology, logic and thoughtful faith. == Recently I received a subscription offer from Free Inquiry, a magazine published by the Council for Secular Humanism that "answers only to men and women who want to think for themselves instead of being bamboozled by appeals to tradition, authority, or blind faith." As I have reviewed this magazine's promotional materials, I find myself comparing it to Mormon intellectualism and wondering what the two have in common and how much they SHOULD have in common. == "Appeals to tradition, authority, or blind faith" constitute what philosophers call logical fallacies. One should have better reasons for belief than those built on such shakey ground. To be sure, religious belief is highly subjective, but appeals to authority and tradition have the potential to be flimsy and without substance, thus prone to error. == Sunstone The mission of the Sunstone Foundation is to sponsor open forums of Mormon thought and experience. Under the motto "Faith Seeking Understanding," we examine and express the rich spiritual, intellectual, social, and artistic qualities of Mormon history and contemporary life. We encourage humanitarian service, honest inquiry, and responsible interchange of ideas that is respectful of all people and what they hold sacred. Free Inquiry Our best guide to truth is free and rational inquiry; we should therefore not be found by the dictates of arbitrary authority, comfortable superstition, stifling tradition, or suffocating orthodoxy. We should defer to no dogma--neither religious nor secular--and never be afraid to ask, "How do you know?" We should be concerned with the here and now, with solving human problems with the best resources of human minds and hearts. I admire Sunstone's idealized goals, but I think most educated Mormons would say the Free Inquiry statement applies more to Sunstone than Sunstone's statement does, which highlights the difficulties and pitfalls of the whole endeavor. == If this were an either-or proposition then I think you would be right. However, as Jesus said, "these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Do you think that faithful belief and thoughtful belief that seeks understanding are antithetical? == The spiritual dangers I see intellectuals facing are pride, stiff-neckedness, and relying on the arm of flesh (in other words, humanism stated in orthodox Mormon terms). == Are not these same dangers facing the orthodox, the dogmatic, the ultra-conservative? One who relies unflinchingly on human agents of God is, in a sense, relying on the arm of flesh. The stubborn, rigid certainty with which they dismiss uncomfortable or controversial questions is prideful IMO. These problems are not the exclusive purview of intellectuals. == But I see room for using god-given intellectual talents to openly explore Mormon experience, scholarship, issues, and art in a way that is at least not unfaithful, although the institutional Church and those who fully cleave unto it intellectually and culturally (not just spiritually and doctrinally) will rarely be satisfied with it. I look to intellectuals to continue finding sensitive, careful ways to break the following cultural taboos identified by Free Inquiry magazine and certainly applicable to Mormonism: Don't criticize anything the public loves. Don't demean any social icons. Don't evaluate dogma, superstition, or strongly held beliefs. Don't question the current trends. Don't ask for evidence. Don't criticize religion. == It is these very prohibitions (unwritten rules?) that rankle anyone who values free expression or believes God truly made us free agents. If the thing is indeed true, none of these will undo it. In that I am dogmatic and stiff-necked. ;-) == The question for me is, is it possible to do so in a more inclusive, less polarizing way? Can Mormons learn to simultaneously juggle intellectualism/humanism and faith? == I believe individual Mormons can. As presently constituted, I have less confidence that the collective Mormon community can. ********************************************* Richard C. Russell, SLC UTAH www.leaderlore.com, www.keyscouter.com "There is never the last word, only the latest." Let there be whirled peas! ********************************************* - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:46:12 -0200 >Todd wrote: I think that art comes from a place very much like the place that my faith comes from. I think that the ability to see as an artist, can, in many ways, be a gift of the spirit. Todd, In my opinion you are half right.... the ability to see as an artist is a gift of the spirit (50%) but it=B4s also a result of the environment where each one of us was educated.. (50%)... The same happens with our personality... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Spec. Fiction & Mysteries Date: 22 Nov 2000 12:41:58 -0500 I have a question then, where would _The Invisible Saint_ fall in all this? Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:56:39 -0200 > Scott, I agree with you.... We can find educated and non-educated studids.... I think I agree with this definion of a stupid: a person (independent of the education) that doesn=B4t want to learn...That=B4s why I believe that everybody interested in Literature isn=B4t stupid...and if We find that somebody had some problem in understanding our work...we have to have the capacity of analise the fact and sometimes learn with it....Change our work...improve it....learn... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 22 Nov 2000 13:40:05 -0700 Tracie Laulusa wrote: > > I have tried reading a variety > of poets over the past year-many Mormons among them. I'm afraid I find most > of it inaccessible. I just don't understand it even though I very much want > to. I wish more fine Mormon writers were writing on a level that can be > understood by more people, instead of just to the 'intellectual' element > amongst us. > If you favour the poets who write 'Bout our common and everyday fight You risk being a thorn And attracting the scorn Of the ones who refuse to write trite. So if you want a place in the sun Where the best intellectuals run You must write imagery That no one else can see Or explain when you're finally done. But if you are a bit still confused I can point you to technique I've used If it makes sense to me And I like it you see That's the kind with which I am enthused. All the rest of the verse that is writ Merely puts guys like me in a snit I don't want it obscure Or too common for sure I just want it just right for my fit. Tom "who confesses humbly and begs forgiveness for being one of those who has been regularly torturing Tracie with verse in the past year" Matkin -- Tom Matkin www.matkin.com "The men who try to do something and fail are infinitely better than those who try to do nothing and succeed." - Lloyd Jones - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: [AML] Researching Martin & Willie Companies Date: 22 Nov 2000 11:53:48 -0700 Can anybody point me to what they consider the best book or books on the Martin and Willie handcart companies? I've run across several, but it's hard to know from advertising copy or descriptions which one would help my research the most. I saw a couple last week at the Church History Museum store but didn't buy them because the cost was prohibitive. Now I'm wishing I'd bought them, but can't remember the titles. I'll appreciate any and all responses, either on the list or privately. Thanks! Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: Re: [AML] What We're Reading Right Now Date: 22 Nov 2000 16:56:45 -0700 > >> Potok, Chaim, The Chosen > > >I admit that its been a couple of years, but I think any aspiring LDS >artist >ought to read Potok's "My Name is Asher Lev," as much to be prepared as to >be inspired. Also, "The Gift of Asher Lev"--what incredible inspirational books! Marianne Hales Harding _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 22 Nov 2000 16:49:02 -0700 Tom Matkin: --- You must write imagery That no one else can see Or explain when you're finally done. --- Tom, I see your point. Do we not detect a touch of the "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome--a silent conspiratorial consensus on the splendid finery we all sport. But, in "real life" it's just not much to look at. Reminiscent of lines overheard in "The Sting" (Redford, Newman) "Mabel, do you see what I see." "So what? You've seen one, you've seen 'em all." "Yeah, but this one's eating my popcorn!" Honestly, this is fine vaudeville, but not high drama. --- Jim Cobabe _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paynecabin@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Researching Martin & Willie Companies Date: 22 Nov 2000 18:58:56 EST Laurel asked, "Can anybody point me to what they consider the best book or books on the Martin and Willie handcart companies?" I don't know if the results of her research are yet published, but the historians at the Church History Library consider the hands-down authority on the experiences of those companies to be Lyndia (pronounced "Linda") Carter, a non-Mormon historian living in Springville. She gave us substantial help in our work on "The Trail of Dreams." Marvin Payne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 23 Nov 2000 01:11:59 -0700 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > I'm a little mixed up. Does this mean that art can not be inspired or that > it can't be the result of the spirit? I have a problem here because I think > that art comes from a place very much like the place that my faith comes > from. I think that the ability to see as an artist, can, in many ways, be a > gift of the spirit. I would agree with this, but with a qualification. If we worry that even scripture is filtered through the understanding of fallible humans, how much more so would art be, even inspired art? Therefore I can't assign it a level of reliability for teaching truth that I would with scripture or the inspired pronouncements of living prophets. I would classify art somewhere near the status of the Apocrypha: there is much truth in it, but you'd better use a lot of discernment by the Spirit to detect it. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marsha Steed Subject: [AML] Call for Help (Music) Date: 22 Nov 2000 16:54:48 -0800 I'm supposed to sing a solo at church with a Temple theme. I'm a high sop. with a fairly extensive range. Nothing appeals to me, anyone out there know of anything wonderful? Steve ? I adore your stuff. . . Any suggestions I can get quickly would be most appreciated. Marsha Steed - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Mormon Website Criticized For Copyright Violations: Kent Larsen Date: 22 Nov 2000 22:38:18 EST Larsen 22Nov00 I4 [From Mormon-News] Mormon Website Criticized For Copyright Violations NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- An LDS-oriented website is flirting with copyright violations that may cause it legal trouble, and seriously jeopardize its existence because the violations seem to make up the majority of the website. All About Mormons (http://www.mormons.org/) may be the LDS-oriented website most at risk for copyright violations, and industry sources are betting that the site will eventually be required to remove the violating material. LDS Church member John Walsh says on the website that he started All About Mormons because he saw a need for orthodox, reliable information about the LDS Church's doctrines and practices. Walsh gathered what he considers authoritative information, organized it by subject, and posted it on the Internet. But most of the material he posted consists of entire articles from the nationally published "Encyclopedia of Mormonism." The website also contains the complete text of all General Conference addresses from October 1996 to April 2000 and many images from LDS Church-owned publications. And the site has become fairly successful, establishing itself as a resource for information about the LDS Church. It is listed in many search engines and Internet directories, and has even appeared as a resource along side news articles about the LDS Church, such as a recent article in U.S. News and World Report (see US News Puts LDS Church on Cover (http://www.mormonstoday.com/001110/N1USNews01.shtml). Normally, using an article from an encyclopedia requires the permission of the publisher, who generally holds an exclusive license to publish the material. But finding the publisher isn't always easy. While the 1992 Encyclopedia of Mormonism was published by Macmillan, a company that no longer exists, the rights are now owned by the Gale Group, which sold an exclusive license to the "electronic rights" to the encyclopedia to LDS CD-ROM publisher Infobases, which is now part of Deseret Book. Contacted by Mormon News, Deseret Book has verified that it owns these electronic rights and did not know that All About Mormons had posted the text to its website. Walsh admits on his website that he is using some of the material on the website without permission from the author. Contacted by Mormon News, Walsh would not respond to a query asking if he had a license to use either the Encyclopedia of Mormonism material or the talks from the LDS Church's General Conference. Instead, he referred Mormon News to a page on his website that talks about his use of copyrighted material (see http://www.mormons.org/about.htm#information). There he says he used the material "with the assumption that the author would not mind or be offended." The page also acknowledges that other users of his site have questioned his use of the copyrighted material. In response, he tells a story about contacting BYU's Robert L. Millett, Dean of Religious Education about a copyright violation, only to find Millet unconcerned about illicit use of his work. Walsh goes on to say, "Since most of the articles we use are from faithful Latter-day Saints, we have never been too concerned about obtaining written permission to use some material." But Walsh's explanation doesn't wash with other LDS website developers. Dallas Robbins, editor of the on-line LDS magazine Harvest Magazine (http://www.harvestmagazine.com/) calls Walsh's explanation for using copyrighted material "sincere, though naive." "Just because Dr. Robert Millet says it was fine that a recorded talk he gave was distributed without his knowledge, does not give the owners of mormons.org the to right to reprint anything they please, just because it furthers the gospel cause." Robbins says that Walsh's use isn't really fair to authors, "A person spends hard work and time to create a piece of written work; we just can't take advantage of people's time and sacrifice without compensating them." He is also disturbed by the implication that Walsh thinks it OK to take advantage of fellow LDS Church members, "[if] they are faithful LDS Church members, [All About Mormons] should even take more time and effort in following the legal and lawful standards in copyright permission," says Robbins. Another LDS webmaster, Alan Jones, is much more blunt about Walsh's use of the material. " . . . what that website has done is not legal nor moral." Jones says he has a fairly good understanding of copyright law because he just helped roll-out a new copyright and confidentiality policy for his company. One of his worries with the abuse of Church materials is that anti-Mormons will get ahold of the material and use it for their own ends. He claims that well-meaning church members posted the LDS Church's General Handbook of Instructions to the Internet, and the anti-Mormon Utah Lighthouse Ministry obtained it. The LDS Church had to file a lawsuit to get the material removed from their site. The experience of others indicates that both Deseret Book and the LDS Church are likely to act on Walsh's use of the material, now that they know about it. In addition to filing a lawsuit against the Utah Lighthouse Ministry over their posting the General Handbook of Instructions, the Church also asked LDS Church member Mark Davies to remove his archive of General Conference talks from the Internet in December 1997, once the Church learned of its existence. Dallas Robbins of Harvest Magazine knows Deseret Book expects to be paid for the use of its material. He contacted the LDS Church-owned publisher recently about reprinting a chapter from one of its books, and was told that he would need to pay a monthly fee of $150 for the privilege. Deseret Book declined to say what they will do about the use of its materials on Walsh's website, and LDS Church spokesman Randy Ripplinger told Mormon News, "Publishing copyrighted materials is the right of the copyright owner. The Church does not give others the right to choose how Church owned materials are published." Robbins of Harvest Magazine worries that All About Mormons' use of the copyrighted material will make it more difficult for him and other webmasters to follow the rules. "I have seen many sites republish much material in such a manner. It only makes it harder for me, someone trying to play by the rules; while others sites don't follow the rules, it gives them the liberty to provide more content and thus creating more traffic. It makes me feel somewhat left out; but of course I would only want to have a site built on honesty and full author participation whenever possible." He says that Walsh should not only take the material down, but also pay for its illicit use, "All About Mormons should pay for what they have reprinted up to this point, - making a restitution, and secure proper copyright before continuing any further reprinting." But Chris Bigelow, an editor of Irreantum, a magazine covering Mormon literature, disagrees. He can see the LDS Church choosing to ignore All About Mormons. "One of the guiding principles at the Church Headquarters is, 'We may permit it, but we don't promote it.' In other words, tolerate the activity but avoid any implication of 'Go and do thou likewise.' That principle would seem to apply in this case." He says that the number of sites using Church material is already too large to stop, "I think that would be like putting a finger in a dike that is leaking in numerous other places." >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 23 Nov 2000 01:26:12 -0700 Scott Parkin wrote: > As others have pointed out, there's a difference between uneducated > and stupid (though many alleged intellectuals don't seem to have > figured that out). > > There is nothing wrong with being uneducated, but I think there *is* > something wrong with refusing to learn new things. > One can be stupid and educated at the same time. Many are. Allow me to play some semantic games with you. If by "uneducated," you mean that there's something we don't know that others do (and it seems like that's what you do mean), then everyone on earth is horribly uneducated. A more useful definition, in my opinion, is that an educated person is someone who has used the time he has been on this earth to learn as many valuable things as he can, and continues to do so. An uneducated person is someone who does not. In this sense, I think uneducated and stupid _are_ the same thing. When we say someone is educated, but has stopped learning, I would say he _was_ educated, but no longer is. I guess I'm saying that being educated, like happiness, is a journey, not a destination. If you stop learning, you stop being educated, and as the scriptures say, you'll start losing even that which you have. Isn't that stupid? Back to the literary relevance: using my definition, I think we can call people stupid who like a certain type of literature, and will not even try other types, or condemns othere types without having experienced them. It should be obvious that this definition applies equally to the literary elite as to the unwashed masses. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Robert Petersen Subject: [AML] Intellectual Mormon Writing (was: Anti-Intellectualism) Date: 23 Nov 2000 11:10:02 -0600 Tracie Laulusa wrote: > I have read discussions about what poetry should or shouldn't be. Or what > literature should or shouldn't be, for that matter. I don't have any > answers. I *do* feel that it does absolutely no good to ridicule what > others find entertaining and enlightening. I have tried reading a variety > of poets over the past year-many Mormons among them. I'm afraid I find most > of it inaccessible. I just don't understand it even though I very much want > to. I wish more fine Mormon writers were writing on a level that can be > understood by more people, instead of just to the 'intellectual' element > amongst us. This is going to sound horrible, but I'll just bite the bullet and go for it--most LDS writers DON'T, in fact, write "intellectual" fiction, poetry, or the like. What they write, in general, is more in the popular arena. By intellectual, I mean writing like Ezra Pound, Thomas Pynchon, Robert Musil, Rikki Ducornet, Robert Coover, Jorie Graham, William Gass, John Barth, and the like. Brian Evenson is really one of the only ones I know of who is writing work that fits squarely into the intellectual vein. I would perhaps include Terry Tempest Williams and Neil Labute. Other writers such as Darrell Spencer are really writing outside of LDS-ness. Now this doesn't mean that Tracie hasn't noticed something, I'm just not sure what it is. She has noticed a level of inaccessibility, but that is not automatically the result of intellectualism, but I'd like to know what writers she's talking about. -- Todd - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Cracroft's Book Nook Date: 24 Nov 2000 12:25:38 -0600 [MOD: I believe Andrew sent a post like this my way about a week ago, which I don't believe ever went out and which appears to have vanished from myin-box. I've asked him to reconstruct what he sent, which he graciously did. Apologies for the delay in getting this out--and thanks to Andrew and others who have pointed out elements of this in various posts. And congratulations to all of ours mentioned favorably herein!] As many of you probably know, Mormon Lit critic Richard Cracroft does acolumn on recent books by Mormon and other BYU authors for the BYU allumnai magazine, Brigham Young Magazine. It isn't really a critical column, since he says good things about all the books, but you can tell when he expecially likes one. In the most recent issue, he says glowing things about threeAML-list people, Marilyn Brown, Alan Mitchell, and Ed Snow. The url ishttp://advance.byu.edu/bym/2000win/pages/booknook.shtml Here are the relevant passages: "As is Marilyn Brown's latest novel, The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass(Springville, UT: Salt Press/Cedar Fort, 2000; 448 pp.; $24.95), which may well be Brown's best and boldest work to date. Rendering fictionally the tragedy of theMountain Meadows Massacre of 1857 and its aftermath, Brown soars from asound and solid historical base to give sympathetic human faces and voices to the Gentile victims and, especially, the Mormon perpetrators of themurders. Brown's John D. Lee is sympathetic, believable, and almost heroic; he is a deeply spiritual, profoundly loyal leader and a very good man who is tragically forced, with others, onto the horns of a dilemma. In thiswell-crafted novel, Brown, while not justifying the crime, puts a human face on the tragedy and, like Juanita Brooks in her classic history, The Mountain Meadows Massacre(1950), makes more understandable the circumstances whichled to the folly. The novel is, however, much more than an examination ofthe massacre. In ways which speak to Latter-day Saints, Brown succeeds incapturing the lives and motivations of faithful Saints who must struggle to learn the lessons of Sainthood while living in a hostile environment, indifficult times, under the difficult principle of plural marriage=97conditio nswhich they accept, affirm, and overcome. In many respects Marilyn Brown'sfine novel matches and even excels Maurine Whipple's classic The GiantJoshua.Certainly Brown's Elizabeth Lorry embodies the LDS point of view far better and more sympathetically than Whipple's Clory McIntyre. Speakingfamiliarly and eloquently as it does to contemporary Latter-day Saints, The Wine-Dark Sea of Grassmay come to be numbered among those few works ofMormon fiction we call "classic." Which phrase and praise leads us to an unusual, often startling butwonderfully refreshing Mormon missionary novel by Alan R. Mitchell=97Angel ofthe Danube(Springville, UT: Bonneville/Cedar Fort, 2000; 197 pp.; $12.95). Angel,which promises to be to Mormon missionary fiction what God's Armyis to the Mormon missionary film, is a moving and comical account of a young man's successful search for spiritual wholeness amidst an Austrian world ofrejection. Tracking Elder Barry Monroe's spiritual odyssey through theAustria Vienna Mission is something like tracking Huckleberry Finn'sdiscovery of his and Jim's humanhood, and even more like following Henderson on his comic journey into the heart of Africa in Saul Bellow's Henderson the Rain King.In fact, in Alan Mitchell we may have discovered our Mormon Saul Bellow. Writing his missionary journal in California-hip dialect, ElderMonroe, who calls everyone "Dude," is wacky and comical and essentiallyserious as he stands atop his bedrock Mormonness and calls the nonplusedAustrians to repentance. Mitchell has hung a rich and literarily satisfying coming-of-age novel upon an infrastructure of Austrian folklore and theups-and-downs of Mormon missionary life. The result is a landmark novel that will delight everyone=97except, perhaps, the Church Missionary Committee(Angel of the Danubewill not become a supplement to the white MissionaryHandbook). The rest of us will enjoy this fresh, original, thoroughgoingly Mormon, albeit wonderfully unorthodox treatment of the journey to belief." "Somehow I've overlooked telling you about Edgar C. Snow Jr's Of CuriousWorkmanship: Musings on Things Mormon(Salt Lake City, UT: Signature Books, 1999; 119 pp.; $14.95). In 25 brief, witty, and humorous essays, Snow muses about Matters Mormon for readers comfortable enough with their faith tochuckle at their own and fellow-Saints' foibles. He essays about everything from "The Gift of Tongues" (Mormon missionary blunders) and a quiz ongenuine vs. bogus Brigham Young quotations to excuses for falling asleep in church and Joseph Smith's naming one of Reynolds Cahoon's children "Mahonri Moriancumer." (Snow adds, "My guess is if you comb LDS historical recordsafter that date you will not find Joseph ever being asked to give anotherchild a name and a blessing . . . . Joseph gave his own kids easy, shortnames, like 'David'" [p. 46].) Snow's essays are good-humored, good-spirited fun and collectively urge us to hope that Brigham Young was speakingprophetically when he conjectured: "I sometimes think God must enjoy humor, and that he won't be strict in reckoning with a humorist" (quoted, p. 92)." He also says good things about BYU Family Studies Department and DavidDollahite's Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Proclamation on the Family(Salt Lake City, UT: Bookcraft, 2000; 424 pp.;$39.95), Richard Neitzel Holzapfel and R.Q. Shupe's two photographic collections BrighamYoung: Images of a Mormon Prophet(Salt Lake City and Provo, UT: Eagle Gate and BYU Religious Studies Center, 2000; 320 pp.; $39.95), and Joseph F.Smith: Portrait of a Prophet(Salt Lake City, UT: 375 pp.; $25.95), RobertMarcum's latest adventure novel, White Out(Salt Lake City, UT: Bookcraft,2000; 370 pp.; $19.95), David G. Woolley's novel Pillar of Fire(AmericanFork, UT: Covenant Communications, 2000; 523 pp.; $21.95), which inaugurates The Promised Land series based on the Book of Mormon. Andrew Hall Woburn, MA (for a few days) ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Re: MN Mormon Website Criticized For Copyright Violations Date: 23 Nov 2000 12:44:11 EST Kent Larsen's Mormon News article, "Mormon Website Criticized For Copyright Violations," was forwarded to another list where Alan Jones participates. Alan was quoted in the article. Because I thought the article would also appear here, I asked Alan if he would like his comments forwarded to AML as well. Larry Jackson: The Mormon News story has been forwarded to the Association for Mormon Letters List. Would you like me to forward your comments, as well? Alan Jones: Thank you for telling me. Please feel free to forward that message. And here it is. Larry Jackson _______________ Since I was quoted in this article I would like to say a few things. The writer only used part of what I said. That is a writers perogative, but it can make a person (and me) feel a little misrepresented. The attorneys I work with did tell me that using and posting such articles by others as All About Mormons does is not legal. And since I understand the LDS moral code to include obeying the law, this would make it not moral. On the other hand, the freeway near my house has a speed limit of 55 mph. Yet many, if not everyone, drives at 57 mph or faster. They are all technically breaking the law and if they live by a moral code, they are doing someone not moral. People do this because it is socially considered a little thing in most places, there are of course those speed traps that strickly enforce the 55 limit. I would argue that copying entire articles onto another website without permission is wrong legally and morally, but when it does not deprive the copyright owner of earnings (a main reason for copyrights) and when it does not defame or otherwise hurt their image, that the Internet social environment has deemed this to be a "little thing". I believe that most people take what All About Mormons does as something that promotes the church and does no harm, therefore it is a little thing to them. The copyright holder, whether it is the church directorly or Deseret News or who ever may choose to make it a big deal and that is their perogative. A couple years ago I read a series of science fiction books and soon realized that the author took the stories of the Book of Mormon and put them into a futuristic world on another planet. I doubt the author did this to hurt the church. In this case since the books were new then I contacted the church legal offices. They told me they were aware of the books and that they were taking actions they felt appropriate. I felt good that they were aware but is was up to them as to whether it would be a big deal or another little thing. Alan Jones Mission Viejo, California alanjones10@home.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 23 Nov 2000 10:49:58 -0800 (PST) You've got to be kidding! I think I would've screamed. Diann Thornley --- ROY SCHMIDT wrote: > Speaking of Especially for Mormons, I heard a radio > ad for Seagull > books yesterday. The ad was promoting a CD of all > the volumes of EFM, > and the copy said that many people considered it the > Fifth Volume of > Scripture. I didn't know if I should laugh or puke. > I chose to laugh. > > Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 23 Nov 2000 11:05:19 -0800 (PST) --- Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > I'm a little mixed up. Does this mean that art can > not be inspired or that > it can't be the result of the spirit? I have a > problem here because I think > that art comes from a place very much like the place > that my faith comes > from. I believe that art *can* be inspired and be the result of the workings of the Spirit--but that's not an excuse for working hard to develop and increase and polish what we produce--in other words, to do the requisite revising and editing and all. Nor would I ever consider it "set in stone," like scripture. In my own experience, the inspiration has come as a single idea here and one there, which I am left to develop and flesh out on my own; I've never had a complete plot flow into my head with every detail described. Rather, as I work with one idea, and develop it, another insight may--or may not--appear. I suppose it could be compared to line upon line, here a little and there a little. Diann Thornley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 22 Nov 2000 09:53:57 -0700 What is interesting to me about Laake's book, which I read a few years ago in a bookstore while waiting, is that it takes a character --herself-- with strong sexual proclivities and puts her in a Mormon church and Temple infrastructure. To me she is one of Levi Petersen's characters come to life. I feel sad that Levi didn't get his book on the National Bestseller list as Laake did, because his characters were saying about the same thing as Laake: "Here I am with my sexual desires and the church is not very accomodating to them. I'm trying to deal with the struggles, and if I tell you something about the church you'll see why it is weird and patriarchal from my point of view." To weave in the Proffitt thread about Shaken Faith writing: after reading Laake, it seems pointless to me to go down this road. I mean, when truth gets stranger and better than fiction and more publicized, why try to trump it? Laake wrote well. What can we add to her story about how strange the ceremonies seem when she views most heterosexual experience as dominating and constraining? What apostacy can we add to her after profaning our most sacred words--that she had a secret conference with the devil ala Korihor? In other words, why write a book about a Presidential Impeachment trial after a similar one had so much publicity a couple of years ago? What can we add? The Shaken Faith story has been written! At least for a decade or two. No harm meant to her by me. She was just mentally insane, as the Salon article says. That is sorta evident by her book. I wonder how non-Mormon readers come away after reading it? Do they believe Mormonism drove her to it? Do they think it will do that to everyone? And do they think she is normal? Alan Mitchell >There's an interesting Salon magazine article on her. > >http://www.salonmag.com/people/feature/2000/10/27/laake/index.html > >--Ruth - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 24 Nov 2000 13:24:36 -0700 D. Michael Martindale wrote: >Allow me to play some semantic games with you. If by "uneducated," you >mean that there's something we don't know that others do (and it seems >like that's what you do mean), then everyone on earth is horribly >uneducated. A more useful definition, in my opinion, is that an educated >person is someone who has used the time he has been on this earth to >learn as many valuable things as he can, and continues to do so. An >uneducated person is someone who does not. In this sense, I think >uneducated and stupid _are_ the same thing. Let's play the game a little differently, and I completely agree with you. Rather than "uneducated," perhaps I should have used "uneducable" in some of those places. It's one thing to be short of knowledge, it's another to be unwilling to seek new knowledge. My point is that some people refuse to think outside whatever box they've built for themselves. Some build a box made of the doctrines of a particular academy, others build boxes made of the doctrines of their favorite inspirational speaker, and still other build boxes made of the doctrines of their parents or close friends. Some or all of these boxes may contain real and important truths, and are useful as ways of parsing the world. I suspect, however, that the perfect universal box has not been built, and that it would be useless to try to define one since each person sees and learns in their own way. And yet, some opinions are more valid, and some statements are more (or less) true than others. But blanket dismissal on the basis of education--for or against--is foolish. Scott Parkin (ever the fool, but not proud of it; always seeking to better understand how and why people feel as they do so I can better understand my own world) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: Re:[AML] Call for Help (Music) Date: 24 Nov 2000 18:26:10 -0200 > Marsha... What about "Il coraggio de dire ti amo - di Luciano Pavarotti" Or What about a song of " Carmina Burana" ....(Opera) Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 24 Nov 2000 13:32:34 -0700 Todd Robert Peterson wrote: > I'm a little mixed up. Does this mean that art can not be inspired or that > it can't be the result of the spirit? I have a problem here because I think > that art comes from a place very much like the place that my faith comes > from. I think that the ability to see as an artist, can, in many ways, > be a gift of the spirit. > One of the big mistakes I think we make is thinking that art is its own > thing, that it is set over on one side, away from most of the rest of > things. I don't mean to imply that art can't be inspired -- far from it. I simply mean that no matter how inspired the artist is, the art is still filtered through the artist. Personally, I think this is a good thing. If we simply "channeled" the spirit onto paper or canvas or keyboard, that would surely take away a great deal of our free agency and thus take away from our opportunity to learn something from the experience. It would certainly make art something set aside from the rest of life. Instead, we take what inspires us and we use our own experiences and abilities to communicate it to others. Adding this dash of ourselves into the artistic recipe makes the art more palatable to some people, and less so to others. I think this even holds scripturally -- I like Nephi's writing better than I like Alma's. Both were certainly inspired by the same source, and I've learned something from each of them. But, when it gets right down to it, I identify with Nephi's experiences with his brothers more than I do with Alma's experiences of preaching to large crowds. --Mike South - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 25 Nov 2000 06:55:13 -0700 Mike South wrote: > I think this even holds scripturally -- I like Nephi's writing > better than I like Alma's. Both were certainly inspired by the same source, > and I've learned something from each of them. But, when it gets right down > to it, I identify with Nephi's experiences with his brothers more than I do > with Alma's experiences of preaching to large crowds. Perhaps this is because we received Nephi's words directly, while Alma's words were _filtered_ through Mormon's abridgement. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: MN Mormon Website Criticized For Copyright Violations Date: 25 Nov 2000 06:44:37 -0700 > From: "Alan Jones" > A couple years ago I read a series of science fiction books > and soon realized that the author took the stories of the > Book of Mormon and put them into a futuristic world > on another planet. I doubt the author did this to hurt > the church. In this case since the books were new then > I contacted the church legal offices. They told me > they were aware of the books and that they were taking > actions they felt appropriate. I felt good that they > were aware but is was up to them as to whether > it would be a big deal or another little thing. This is obviously Orson Scott Card's "Homecoming" series, and contrary to Alan's apparent assumption, is not copyright violation. Copyright addresses the right to _copy_ the words of an author. It is not possible to copyright ideas. Nor is it possible to copyright history, as believing Mormons consider the Book of Mormon to be. Alan was completely out of line contacting the church legal offices about it, and their response to him I would guess was a polite way of brushing him off. Card goes into this accusation in depth in an article on his website titled "An Open Letter from Orson Scott Card to those who are concerned about 'plagiarism' in The Memory of Earth," located at: http://www.hatrack.com/osc/articles/openletter.shtml -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Writer Gives Thanksgiving Thoughts In LA Times: Los Date: 25 Nov 2000 08:36:25 EST Angeles Times 18Nov00 D1 [From Mormon-News] LDS Writer Gives Thanksgiving Thoughts In LA Times LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA -- LDS writer Kathleen Lubeck Peterson again shared her thoughts in the Orange County edition of the Los Angeles Times, telling her neighbors about her family's history and how that history frames Thanksgiving for her. Peterson writes of a Danish boy's hunger for food in the 1800s, comparing that to her father's spiritual hunger while growing up in a non-religious household. "Hunger comes in many guises," writes Peterson. She then points out that Thanksgiving lacks meaning in the face of hunger, and suggests that those truly thankful share what they have with others, because God gives us all we have. "We are His. He feeds us. He has bought us. All that we have is a gift from Him. And we, following His example, must give the good gifts, too." Peterson is a resident of Irvine, California and a former seminary teacher. She writes the articles she submits to the Times as part of her service in the LDS Church's Public Affairs. Source: Give Thanks For Hungers Satisfied Los Angeles Times 18Nov00 D1 http://www.latimes.com/editions/orange/20001118/t000110775.html By Kathleen Lubeck Peterson >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 25 Nov 2000 08:18:58 -0700 >What can >we add? The Shaken Faith story has been written! At least for a decade or >two. What can we add? Since Laake does an abysmal job of writing in this book, revealing more about her own inadequacies than she ever hopes to about problems in the Church, I suspect a book that took the view that there is a systemic problem within the Church and that it does foster sexual aberration of a certain kind would be worth writing. What you're saying is why write a novel about Joseph Smith because Vardis Fisher did in the the 30's. Well, he did it rather poorly, again seeking to smear more than explore. Until Laake, or anyone else, gets the Shaken Faith story right, I think it's worth the effort for others to keep trying. It's not everybody's cup of tea. But some of us have been down that Shaken Faith road. Some of us are traveling down it now, trying to hang on by whatever's left of our fingernails. In a church where one seems to be surrounded by people who "know" the truth, it is quite refreshing to occasionally hear a familiar voice, even if it is as poorly sounded as Deborah Laake's. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 25 Nov 2000 08:21:24 -0700 >I suspect, however, that the >perfect universal box has not been built, and that it would be >useless to try to define one since each person sees and learns in >their own way. Scotto, So what you're saying is that the Gospel cannot be contained within a "locked" box? Thom (making a quick and weak political joke and then retreating swiftly) Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: [AML] Thank You (was: Researching Martin & Willie Companies) Date: 25 Nov 2000 10:06:35 -0700 To the several of you who provided me with references and referrals for researching the Willie and Martin handcart companies, THANK YOU! very much. I'm trying to follow up on all the sources you've pointed me to, and in the search have found a number of others as well. It seems that over the past several years, with the several anniversary celebrations (Utah statehood, pioneer reenactments, etc.) there has been a lot said and written about many Mormon and pioneer events. Even with all that, there is so much more to be found in the individual stories, and some of the less well-publicized episodes recorded in diaries and journals. Thanks again, for your help! Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: [AML] Copyright Violations and EFM Date: 25 Nov 2000 10:35:56 -0700 Interesting that the subject of copyright violations comes up the same day EFM is mentioned. I haven't picked up a volume of EFM since the 70's, but in the editions available then, there were hardly any source attributions, few original author's names even mentioned, no notices of permissions obtained and other fairly blatant no-no's. This was the source of quite a bit of discussion in some of my BYU classes at the time. Has this changed in the newer editions? Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Date: 25 Nov 2000 08:36:25 EST Proclamation on the Family: Deseret Book Press Release 22Nov00 S3 [From Mormon-News] Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Proclamation on the Family SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- In 1995 the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints published "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." In it, these Church authorities boldly declared revealed principles and doctrines about the relationship between the sexes, marriage, and family life. "Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Proclamation on the Family" (Bookcraft, $39.95), edited by David C. Dollahite from the School of Family Life at Brigham Young University, is a compilation of essays by more than 80 well-respected LDS Church theologians, sociologists, and lecturers that explores the Proclamation in depth. The book offers hundreds of practical tips for strengthening marriage and family relationships, guiding children, and helping families in all kinds of challenging circumstances. The rich doctrine and key principles of the Proclamation are studied and evaluated, helping Church members learn its doctrines and apply them in their lives. "Strengthening Our Families" wil be used as a textbook in the Department of Marriage, Family and Human Development at BYU. It is an invaluable source of inspiration and understanding to general LDS readers, parents, teachers, and Church leaders. About the Editor: David C. Dollahite is a professor of marriage, family, and human development at Brigham Young University. He teaches the popular course on the Proclamation on the Family. He was assisted in preparing this book by a sizeable number of other BYU professors and assistant professors in his department. See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573458244/mormonnews More about "Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Proclamation on the Family" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: RE: [AML] Inspiration and Art Date: 25 Nov 2000 12:06:54 -0800 (PST) --- Mike South wrote: > Todd Robert Peterson wrote: > > > I'm a little mixed up. Does this mean that art > can not be inspired or > that > > it can't be the result of the spirit? I have a > problem here because I > think > > that art comes from a place very much like the > place that my faith comes > > from. I think that the ability to see as an > artist, can, in many ways, > > be a gift of the spirit. > > > One of the big mistakes I think we make is > thinking that art is its own > > thing, that it is set over on one side, away from > most of the rest of > > things. > Mike South wrote: > I don't mean to imply that art can't be inspired -- > far from it. I simply > mean that no matter how inspired the artist is, the > art is still filtered > through the artist. > > Personally, I think this is a good thing. If we > simply "channeled" the > spirit onto paper or canvas or keyboard, that would > surely take away a great > deal of our free agency and thus take away from our > opportunity to learn > something from the experience. It would certainly > make art something set > aside from the rest of life. > > Instead, we take what inspires us and we use our own > experiences and > abilities to communicate it to others. Adding this > dash of ourselves into > the artistic recipe makes the art more palatable to > some people, and less so > to others. I think this even holds scripturally -- I > like Nephi's writing > better than I like Alma's. Both were certainly > inspired by the same source, > and I've learned something from each of them. But, > when it gets right down > to it, I identify with Nephi's experiences with his > brothers more than I do > with Alma's experiences of preaching to large > crowds. > I agree with the discussion above. May I add another aspect? I actively pray for inspiration when I sit down to write--that I'll be guided as I work on the piece to produce that which is pleasing to Father and beneficial to those who will read it. That doesn't mean I expect to "channel" a story--although on occasion I have had concepts or ideas pop into my mind at certain points that I realized later weren't *just* my imagination. And it certainly *doesn't* mean that what I produce has any spiritual value beyond being (hopefully) a good piece of thought-provoking fiction. But I do believe we're every bit as entitled to inspiration about our artistic pursuits as we are to any other aspect of our lives: family matters, Church callings, you name it. --Diann Thornley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 25 Nov 2000 14:58:53 -0800 Alan Mitchell wrote: > > In other words, why write a book about a Presidential Impeachment trial > after a similar one had so much publicity a couple of years ago? What can > we add? The Shaken Faith story has been written! At least for a decade or > two. If you kept strictly to this approach you could eliminate nearly all literature and art as being derivative. Some people like to claim there are no new stories left. I wouldn't go that far, but most literature commonly considered "great" recycles the same themes because these are the themes that are most important to human beings. And the same plot lines get recast all the time. The artistry is in putting them in a new light. > No harm meant to her by me. She was just mentally insane, as the Salon > article says. That is sorta evident by her book. I wonder how non-Mormon > readers come away after reading it? Do they believe Mormonism drove her to > it? Do they think it will do that to everyone? And do they think she is > normal? I don't recall the Salon article using the word "insane." She was depressed. That puts her in the same category as a substantial percentage of women both in and out of the church (and probably as many men, although depression is not as often diagnosed in men because it tends to manifest as addiction). There can be many causes of depression, but an inconsistency between ones inner values and one's outer lifestyle is certainly a likely candidate. So in a sense, the church may have been partially responsible for her depression. The same way I think the church interacts with the idiosyncrasies of some of Levi's fictional characters to produce toxic results. To blame the church as Laake apparently did is too simple. The interaction is much more complex and subtle than that. In that regard, I think Levi's fiction is more insightful on this issue than Laake's biography. But people develop in relationship to their surroundings. Culture affects people. And it affects different people differently, the same way a certain movie may be uplifting to one person and damaging to another. Is it the movie maker's fault if a movie has a bad effect on some viewers? I've heard some people on the list argue yes and others argue no. Is the church responsible for any bad effects it may have on certain people? Take away the emotional reaction that such a question is likely to generate and I think you are left with more or less the same question. I don't find value in trying to establish blame, as Laake apparently did. I think gaining insight into the interaction is much more useful. That is why I like Levi's work. I think it explores this theme thoughtfully without resorting to either whitewashing or finger pointing. Levi's characters don't have to be "normal" to illustrate the ways in which the church may affect us. And that effect may still be there, even if it is infinitely more subtle than it is in extreme cases, fictional or real. -- Rob Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" Date: 26 Nov 2000 00:36:42 -0800 I've stayed out of this discussion for lack of time but I keep wanting to do some rhetorical analysis. But first, a story. Recently I was interviewing a man selling his house to Lindon city because they had put in a 90 foot telecommunications tower a few years back which had lowered his property value. At one point he changed the subject, looking across the street to where a car lot was leasing land from the city. "I'd like to know what kind of pull he's got with the city." He then said he didn't think the land the man was leasing would be suitable for the fire station the city plans to build there, wondered if it would even be big enough. "I think they'll end up taking that restaurant next door. I don't know how she stays in business. There aren't five people in a day who go there. This Vietnamese woman owns it, got some money from the government to get started. I sure hate to see my taxes go to support someone from Vietnam. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not prejudiced against any group. I just don't think our taxes should go to support some Vietnamese woman who won't go out and get a real job." Despite the quote marks it's only a close paraphrase. I didn't write it down. It wasn't germane to the story I was researching, and people who say things like that make me uncomfortable enough that I choose not to spend much time around them. I was thinking he might make an interesting profile (in addition to the news story) until he said that. But why profile someone I don't like and give him a forum for his hurtful remarks? Of course, if his remarks had pertained to what I was writing about I probably would have included them, but it makes me wonder if I would have published John Rocker's comments if I had interviewed him. I hope I would have. Phrases like, "Now don't get me wrong. I'm not prejudiced against any group," or "Let me be perfectly honest," invite verbal subversion, which is what happened early in this thread. A lot of this thread has dealt with reactions to these two statements from 10/31/2000: > The Mormon parents, including Valerie Bentley-Ballif, > whose 17-year-old son Chris wanted to be in the musical > until he read the script, objected to the play, saying that > it is offensive and "inappropriate" for a public school. "He > wanted to be in the musical, until he read the script," says > Bentley-Ballif. "And he said, 'Mom, I can't do this. This is > offensive." [snip] > Bentley-Ballif said she found the portrayal of Christ's > crucifixion as an electrocution on an electric fence, > particularly offensive. "I'm not a zealot. But that was > offensive." Richard Johnson's immediate response, 10/31/ was to verbally subvert Bentley-Ballif. > The heck she's not a zealot. As far as I am concerned SHE is offensive. > Sometimes I am embarrassed to share the same church membership > with people who feel they have the right to micromanage the activities > of others. Verbal subversion is a way of protecting ourselves against lies. The phrase comes from Paul Fussell's book Wartime. Fussell starts one chapter by wondering what it was about WWII that "drove soldiers to constant verbal subversion and contempt," coining phrases like snafu, fubar, tarfu, fubb, and others. They would relish the irony that some of their phrases have entered the language as harmless expressions you might hear over the pulpit. ("Due to some snafu the Smiths have been in the ward several months and we have just now received their records.") Certainly, when they called something fu (either beyond all recognition, beyond belief, things are really, or even situation normal all) they didn't mean fouled up. They meant their acronyms as obscenities, offensive words to fight back against the offensive circumstances they were trying to survive. That is, the soldiers were trying to verbally subvert a PR campaign they knew would deprive the folks back home of any knowledge of what war was really like. (Incidentally, when _Saving Private Ryan_ (Oh, come on, can't you think of a good pun? Darning Public Irene? ) came out in July of 98 I heard an interview with Fussell and some other vets while we were driving down toward Cedar City (always reminds me of Bruce Jorgensen's "A Song for One Still Voice," his comment about the locals calling it Cedar) on our way to LA for my nephew's wedding). They were pleased that someone had finally tried making a movie that showed what they experienced during the war. When I hear comments about people not wanting to see that kind of carnage, I think, well, those aren't the people Spielberg is trying to pay a debt to.) One other bit of rhetorical analysis, It's significant both son and mother said, "It's offensive." What does is signify? Well, I keep remembering my marriage and family class from Larry Beall at the UW Institute (in his private practice he's done a fair amount of marriage counseling, but that's not the only class he teaches. When I left Skedaddle (second reference in one post to a story in _Greening Wheat_) he was talking with Bro. Carver who got shipped off to Moab about the early Christian Fathers. (Bro. C. told us about a book he read once arguing that Jesus was a Pharisee, that certain passages only make sense if he is a Pharisee and that the tension between him and the Pharisees was a very early and deliberate textual corruption--That's what my Jesus novel is going to be about.)) used to say about the difference between "You make me so mad," and "I get so mad when you do X." There's a lot of pressure in our culture to assign offensive qualities to art rather than say we are offended. I don't know why. Perhaps we don't consider it OK to be offended by something unless that thing is inherently offensive. But there are dangers in that. We might start thinking that anyone not as offended as we are is not in tune with the Spirit. Harlow S. Clark (who has more to say, later) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 27 Nov 2000 09:12:17 -0500 Diann wrote in response to my questions about art and faith and gifts of the spirit: > I believe that art *can* be inspired and be the result > of the workings of the Spirit--but that's not an > excuse for working hard to develop and increase and > polish what we produce--in other words, to do the > requisite revising and editing and all. Nor would I > ever consider it "set in stone," like scripture. Absolutely, and it is just the same with faith. It starts as a gift, but if you do nothing with it, it withers. It is this aspect of the comparison, more than the others that I think is of the most importance. The spirit, we should remember never got ANYONE of of doing any work. In fact, the spirit often causes more work for us, because we are prompted and prodded into action. In life as in art, our inspirations do not EVER let us sit back on our heels. I think of our scriptures that castigate people for taking no thought save asking the Lord or the ones that tell us that the Lord should not have to command in all things. Often times when someone says that their art comes from a place that is like the place that their faith comes from there is someone else who hears: "art equals faith." If anything art is congruent to faith, but it is in many cases a gift of the spirit, which we know must be magnified or lost--we have parables aplenty to warn us of that. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 27 Nov 2000 09:23:00 -0500 Scott Parkin made the following distinction: > Rather than "uneducated," perhaps I should have used > "uneducable" in some of those places. It's one thing to be short of > knowledge, it's another to be unwilling to seek new knowledge. and what an important one it is. Some people literally revel in the fact that they are NOT open to new ideas. That is going to be a particularly bad place for Mormon people to be when previously sealed and untranslated scripture comes into being, when the 12 temples start going up in Missouri. But in terms of this discusssion, the fact that people are uneducable is a horrible thing sometimes. In painting these additudes kept some truly wonderful painters from being accepted, and I'm not talking about Picassso, Max Ernst, and the like. I mean such shocking and lewd quacks like Monet and and Cezanne. The history of the Impressionists' coming-into-being, should be a lesson to us all in this debate: just because we don't get it, doesn't mean that it's not worth getting. It might take some energy to do so. It is this energy, I think, that a great many people (LDS or not) are completely uninterested in investing. I talked about work in another post, and it plays a part here. Also someone said that they know plenty of Mormons who just sigh and say that they'll never understand Isaiah. We'll we should all try since he is quoted at length by so many Book of Mormon prophets, even Christ relys on his words for a spell in 3 Nephi. I think that anti-Intellectualism, as we have been discussing it, is spawned, in part, by intellectual laziness. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] MN Fishers of Men: Deseret Book Press Release Date: 27 Nov 2000 09:39:22 -0700 [From the news release]: .> Like a much-loved movie you see over and over, knowing the ending but > finding new things to revel over each time you watch it, this story > is both familiar and vibrantly new. We meet Jesus through the eyes > and views of three families, who have heard about him -- with > curiosity and some skepticism -- and then come to know him. > I listened to this book yesterday as I drove from Utah back to Canada. (It was only 6 hours, so I also listened to the last volume Dean Hughes opus on WWII, which pretty much filled the whole time for me.) I found the characters much more vivid and comfortable than the wooden fictional folk in the Work and the Glory series. I don't know if it made a difference that it was the talking book I was using and that I read the other from the page. Either that or Lund is learning his craft. I teach EM seminary and the lessons we have been studying followed the emphasis in this book pretty closely. I'm thinking I could give a lot of make up credit to any of my students who demonstrated that they read this book. :-) Tom -- Tom Matkin www.matkin.com "The men who try to do something and fail are infinitely better than those who try to do nothing and succeed." - Lloyd Jones - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: [AML] Alma vs. Nephi (was: Anti-Intellectualism) Date: 27 Nov 2000 10:39:13 -0700 I wrote: >> I think this even holds scripturally -- I like Nephi's writing >> better than I like Alma's. Both were certainly inspired by the same source, >> and I've learned something from each of them. But, when it gets right down >> to it, I identify with Nephi's experiences with his brothers more than I do >> with Alma's experiences of preaching to large crowds. And then D. Michael wrote: > Perhaps this is because we received Nephi's words directly, while Alma's > words were _filtered_ through Mormon's abridgement. I think you're correct here. Most of the scripture we have that came directly from Alma's mouth are his sermons (when he spoke in the first person). Those are the parts I tend to think of when I think of Alma's writing and, frankly, I've never been very good at sitting through a sermon. The rest of his story is told through Mormon's abridgement. Which still makes my point -- because of the differences in how Alma's story and Nephi's story are told (i.e. because of choices each author made in how to present his inspired material) I respond differently to each one. I realize this highlights my personal weaknesses and eccentricities more than it says anything about Nephi's, Alma's, or Mormon's writing abilities. I'm just grateful that Father saw fit to include his messages in more than one way in the scriptures so that someone as dense as me will still get the it . --Mike South - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Date: 27 Nov 2000 10:57:39 -0700 On (No, or invalid, date.), Marilyn Brown wrote: >I went back to Paul Rawlins' story and wanted to say that I did not feel it was a "lost-faith" story. I really liked it, as a matter of fact. I think Jacob's comments are good, because he is bravely standing up for "resolutions in sight" but as I read Paul's story FAITH OF THE FATHERS I find that "resolution in sight." I think it's a beautiful story about the way our people often need to find reasons and explanations when God takes the life of a young person, or some other unexplainable thing happens. But if we say "it was an accident, tragic and unfortunate beyond words," this does not need to destroy our faith. And then when we offer our own personal gift of human compassion: "I am sorry, very sorry," we are making the only connection that can heal, really. It is our warmth with each other, our caring and love that offer the resolution in sight. The reason I had such a strong reaction to "Faith of the Fathers" is because I was so frustrated with the father. The gospel has a great deal to say that is tailored exactly for such situations. I'm not asking for a tract on "proper" gospel reactions to tragedy in the story, but would a prayer that actually is answered be so much to ask? Could we see the hand of God *at all*? Or even a man who supposedly represents a universal church type actually *try* to find answers in prayer, scripture, or ecclesiastical advice? As a father, I kept waiting for this man to turn to any of the myriad avenues available to him to help his ailing family out. That he turned instead to some adolescent homily for his understanding is just disturbing and the implication that I should accept the story as an insight to fathers of faith is absurd. Note that this is a very personal reaction and I recognize it as such. I don't expect my reaction to be universal or even representative of anyone else who might read the story. But I do find my reaction similar to my reaction to reading other stories and so I *am* trying to point out that I am tired of stories that purport to represent a general LDS perspective that nevertheless display a lack of anything like an active, loving God in them. Or active faith on the part of the protagonists. >Maybe rethink that one, Jacob? And please don't stop reading all the IRREANTUM stories? We love your brave comments! Marilyn Brown I'm certainly willing to re-examine my reaction to "Faith of the Fathers" and/or discuss it at length. I rather doubt my opinion of it will change, though. My opinion of Maureen Whipple certainly hasn't and a lot of people I respect oppose me on that one. I *am* reading the rest of the stories, but mainly due to a sense of duty because I opened my big mouth. So far, I've only read the first three. I've also been saving Chris Bigelow's response to reply to because I think that editorial intent and reader assumptions are important. As to the other two stories: I'm not a fan of cowboy/frontier stories though I found it interesting having a family pray that their deception will work. I *really* liked Dorothy Peterson's "The House". What a wonderful story. The gospel is at the heart of this story even though it is essentially about a, um, I don't know, lapsed? Mormon. Not only is it well and engagingly written, but the characters drew me in immediately and the conclusion left me reeling in a good way. I particularly like how by the end I am willing to remap my relationship to characters, including the house, and I'm happy to put some symbolism there and tack on "The House of God" or some such sappy thing. I am really glad I didn't miss this story as that would have been tragic. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "renatorigo" Subject: RE: [AML] Inspiration and Art Date: 27 Nov 2000 18:24:35 -0200 > In my opinion the process of creating a book is an architectural process. In my case when I create a book (I=B4m not a writer for profession but I have some plays and books that I=B4ve been writing since I was 17) I could explain my process of creation as below: 1. Have an Idea (we need inspiration) 2. Estructure the Idea - the basic structure of the book 3. Development of the Idea (We have to create caracters , the sceenes, the situations, the personalities...the psychology conclusion of each paragraph...Here we need writing technic, literature background and inspiration) 4. Final review - verify the main points, writing mistakes, and mainly the coerence of each step of the book...of each personality. Well, this is my process....I don=B4t know if it=B4s ok because I never published a book...(I intent to publish my first one next year). I would like to have everybody describing its own process during the creating of a book... And Then we could verify the importance of the inspiration in each process... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art (was Anti-Intellectualism) Date: 27 Nov 2000 11:27:22 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 12:05 PM Diann Thornley wrote: > I believe that art *can* be inspired and be the result > of the workings of the Spirit--but that's not an > excuse for working hard to develop and increase and > polish what we produce--in other words, to do the > requisite revising and editing and all. Nor would I > ever consider it "set in stone," like scripture. > > In my own experience, the inspiration has come as a > single idea here and one there, which I am left to > develop and flesh out on my own; I've never had a > complete plot flow into my head with every detail > described. Rather, as I work with one idea, and > develop it, another insight may--or may not--appear. > I suppose it could be compared to line upon line, here > a little and there a little. I have a question on this thread that I'd like to run past the group. It's really not one specific question, but deals with the extent and nature of the inspiration we receive in the way Diann describes. The circumstances that prompt my question come from the experience of George F. Handel when he was writing the Hallelujah Chorus for Messiah. He relates that a vision opened to him and he saw and heard a heavenly choir singing the Chorus before the throne of God. He wrote it down as he heard them sing it. (Great tear blotches on the original manuscript attest to the powerful spiritual experience this was for him.) Now here's what is curious to me. Who actually wrote this Chorus? It is unquestionably in Handel's style. Did he write it in the pre-existence? Was he plagorizing, halucinating, or was his pre-existent work revealed to him in this experience? Is that how we receive inspiration for our art? How do you suppose all this works? Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Date: 27 Nov 2000 13:33:06 -0700 On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:30:18 -0700, Christopher Bigelow wrote: >Responding to Jacob Proffitt: > ><<Irreantum fiction section because I read the first story and found that >while it was well enough written, I really dislike the faith-denuded Mormon >experience narrative. I was afraid to try the next story for fear it would >be along the same, quandary-loving vein.>>> > >As managing editor of Irreantum, let me just say that we publish stories all across the spectrum, including some excerpts from novels published by Deseret Book. To write off the magazine's fiction offerings because one story doesn't fit your desired mode would be a mistake. Frankly, we are by no means swimming in fiction submissions and are publishing at least half if not the majority of what we receive, and we were particularly honored to have a nationally prominent author like Paul Rawlins let us consider one of his stories. It isn't that it is *one* story I dislike. It is that it was *the first* story. I used placement of stories as an indicator of editorial intent. Since you have no advertisers and you have no qualms starting a story mid column, I have to believe that you placed the available stories on some criteria of merit. So there must be a reason for putting Paul Rawlins' story first. I don't think I am out of line when I make assumptions based on placement of that story. In this case, it seems that you favor the stuff I hate and it makes me not trust your editorial judgement for the rest of the stories you chose to include. Personally, after reading all the fiction stories, I'd have put Dorothy Peterson's story first as it is not only the best written story (sorry other authors, my true opinion), it is also the better Mormon story. Paul Rawlins might be some national hot-shot, but do you really want to reward credentials over quality? Are the table scraps from the national author to be privileged over the superior story by Dorothy? Since I can't trust you to cut the stories that I am coming to despise, I stand in need of some other guide. I was very serious when I said I am sick of faithless Mormon stories. I am getting to the point where I would rather miss quality fiction in order to avoid stories like Paul Rawlins'. I recognize that this is a matter of personal taste. I also realize that others on this list probably enjoy the stories I dislike so much and might even go the other way and despise the stories I enjoy. That's to be expected, I suppose. What I need is some source I trust to review the stories before I get there. If I could have skipped Paul Rawlins and gone straight to Dorothy Peterson I would have been a happy camper and all my posts would have been unnecessary. Volunteers anyone? Eric Snider you out there? ><<<"Faith of the Fathers" is well written--well crafted--but I'm not going to >read any more of these stories. And since that was the first fiction story >in Irreantum, I assume that it is representative of what the editors wanted >to present, so I just didn't bother with the others. My apologies to those >authors, but I can't handle the continuing messages about my faith that are >devoid of an active, loving, comforting God anymore.>>> > >Bad assumption. Like I said, we are covering the full spectrum of Mormon lit. Tory Anderson is our fiction editor, and I don't know if he's on this list, but I'm CCing him with this (and forwarding your original message) in case he would like to respond. Bad assumption? What assumption was bad? Give me information if you expect me to change my assumptions. My assumption is that the editors chose to put Paul Rawlins' story first because it represents their evaluation of the best they have to offer. You *always* put your best foot forward. Burying Dorothy Peterson in the middle was a shame. >>From my editorial in the winter '99-'00 issue: > > We do not intend to pigeonhole Irreantum as either culturally liberal or conservative. We want to give orthodox books, authors, and presses as much attention and respect as we give liberal books, authors, and presses. We consider ourselves more free to explore a wide range of Mormon literature than a magazine sponsored by BYU, for example, yet we do not want to make mainstream LDS readers and writers uncomfortable with our publication. We are seeking the middle ground, the temperate zones between the equator of Church-sanctioned publishing and the nether poles. That zone has room for active Mormons writing orthodox fiction (for example, Gerald Lund), active or semiactive Mormons writing liberal fiction for the Mormon market (Linda Sillitoe), active Mormons writing fiction for national audiences (Orson Scott Card), inactive Mormons writing for national audiences (Walter Kirn), and members of other faiths writing about Mormon characters and themes (Tony Kushner). We are >interested in all literature by, for, or about Mormons and in general literature seen through Mormon eyes. > >Therefore you will see reviews, essays, interviews, poetry, and fiction in Irreantum from a wide variety of cultural perspectives. We hope that if you encounter something in Irreantum that is either too spicy or too bland for your tastes, you will trust the magazine to offer an overall satisfying mix as time goes forward. Personally, I am most interested in how Mormon authors and subjects are breaking into the national literary scene. But I and other Irreantum staffers are also keenly interested in the large and healthy industry that publishes products for the mainstream LDS audience, and we hope Irreantum can influence the developing tastes of those readers (so far the magazine is carried in about 20 LDS bookstores). If you are going to try to influence the developing tastes of readers, you need to develop some trust with those readers. We the readers need to be able to understand what you will value and what you wont. In this issue, it seems either a) you value faithless Mormon fiction over faithful Mormon fiction or b) you value credentialed authors over superior quality. Either case makes me trust you less in informing my taste. With this last issue, my personal score card rates one story excellent, one story repulsive and three others that were nice, but not outstanding. Since your editorial decision privileged the repulsive (to me--I know this is a personal reaction and I'm being kind of blunt here, but trying to be honest) story, I can't say that you have gained my trust that you will give me "an overall satisfying mix as time goes forward". This probably ties back into the thread about not being able to please everybody--that no matter how much you try, you just can't get away without some complaints. I hate that I am aligned in this discussion with those who complain about stuff others find perfectly acceptable, but there you go. I guess my conclusion is that I'll see what happens in the next issue or so. I wish I had a reviewer I can trust on the stories, or that you could categorize beyond the rather broad heading "Fiction" (how about a "Faithless =46iction" and a "Faithful Fiction"? Uh, maybe not), but since I don't, I have to base the expense of my time on my trust of the editors. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Creative Actions" Subject: [AML] References to Native Americans in Mormon Lit. Date: 27 Nov 2000 15:36:46 -0800 Hi. I'm doing a little research. Can any of you name me some works of Mormon lit. which make more than passing reference to Native Americans? I'd appreciate it. Thanks--Jacqui Garcia [MOD: Since I'm not sure if Jacqui is on AML-List, please copy her e-mail address--creativeactions@mcn.net--on any replies you send to the List.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Date: 27 Nov 2000 18:32:32 -0500 Actually, I understand most of what you all have been posting on MPL. I love some of the lyrics Sam Payne has posted, trip over Elf's contributions here and there, and in general admire how capably you all throw the verses around-even the limericks. Would it be appropriate on either list (AML or MPL) to discuss some of the poetry that is being written-the whys and hows or something-especially of some of the stuff I'm having so much difficulty with? I'd dearly love for someone to enlighten me. Tracie Laulusa [MOD: Discussion of any published work of poetry within the realm of Mormon letters is certainly appropriate on this List. It would probably be most helpful if it is from a source such as _Irreantum_ that many of us can fairly easily get access to. I'd be a lot more leery of discussing unpublished work. We've always shied away from using AML-List as a critiquing group for unpublished work, not because that's bad but because it's better suited to a different forum than this, or vice versa. Occasionally we've allowed unpublished poetry to be posted for purposes of discussion or illustration, but I think that would need to be posted by the author, or at least with permission of the author, for that specific purpose. I'd be a lot happier if some examples can be taken from published sources.] -----Original Message----- Tom "who confesses humbly and begs forgiveness for being one of those who has been regularly torturing Tracie with verse in the past year" Matkin -- Tom Matkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Irreantum Fiction (was: Shaken Faith and Truth) Date: 27 Nov 2000 16:47:11 -0700 Responding to Jacob: Well, maybe it would be helpful to have the fiction editor write a little introduction to the fiction section, describing each story a little and orienting readers to it, maybe even explaining story order and mix a little. I'm all for editorial openess that way and think it makes for a more interesting, interactive magazine. As far as the autumn issue's story order and putting Rawlins first, I didn't personally make that decision (I'm not sure if it was the fiction editor or the other comanaging editor), but I think it was appropriate under the circumstances, although I also see your points. I wonder if most readers place so much importance on story order? I'm more tuned in to what we put on the cover, and I put a lot of thought into the juxtapositioning of the Dutcher and Van Wagoner interviews and the priority coverage given to Dutcher (in cover and order, not length---the Van Wagoner is quite a bit longer). This kind of feedback is great, and I hope we get more of it. I wonder, Jacob, if you would be willing to give us a letter compiled from your posts (shortened) for publication in the next issue. Please? It would really contribute to the balance we're trying to achieve and perhaps help provoke other letters that can help us understand our readership better. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Preston Hunter" Subject: [AML] Re: [AML-Mag] References to Native Americans in Mormon Lit. Date: 27 Nov 2000 20:15:25 -0600 [MOD: Compilation post. FYI, "Thunderbird's Egg" is published in the anthology _Washed by a Wave of Wind_, ed. Shayne Bell, Signature Books, 1993. _Inuit_ was published as a separate short story paperback by Pulphouse in 1991, and I think in other locations as well.] Diann Thornley's "Thunderbird's Egg" is an excellent story totally focusing on a Navajo character. Author is LDS, but Mormons are only peripherally a part of the story. LDS author M. Shayne Bell's story "Inuit" is completely and authentically about Inuit (Eskimo) culture. - Preston Hunter Preston Hunter ---------- >Hi. I'm doing a little research. Can any of you name me some works of >Mormon lit. which make more than passing reference to Native Americans? I'd >appreciate it. Thanks--Jacqui Garcia - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: [AML] Copyright Violations and EFM Date: 27 Nov 2000 21:52:02 -0500 I don't know if I've mentioned this story on AML-list before. In my first job in Book Publishing here in New York City at Henry Holt and Co., I came across a story called "The Go Getter" by Peter B. Kyne. The plot line in "The Go Getter" is identical to an EFM story. I've never compared the stories to see if it were word-for-word, but I wouldn't be surprised. Its clear that "The Go Getter" is the original source. Now, this doesn't make it a copyright violation, but it might make it plagarism, since the EFM story doesn't do anything new or different with the story. FWIW, Kent - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art Date: 27 Nov 2000 20:37:16 -0700 >Who actually >wrote this Chorus? It is unquestionably in Handel's style. Did he write it >in the pre-existence? Was he plagorizing, halucinating, or was his >pre-existent work revealed to him in this experience? Is that how >we receive >inspiration for our art? How do you suppose all this works? My opinion: Handel wrote every note. He did not write it in the pre-existence. His connection with God inspired him to mine depths in his creative mind and soul that he may not have otherwise been able to. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: [AML] Introductions: Lu Ann Staheli Date: 27 Nov 2000 21:05:05 -0700 --------------0405B3556E693D1B9F9D06E9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought since I'm new to this list-serve and since I've actually been posting on occasion, I should take a minute to introduce myself as has been suggested earlier by the moderator and list members. My name is Lu Ann Brobst Staheli. I teach English, Creative Writing for Publication, and Reading is Fun at Payson Jr. High School. I was the 1999 Utah English/Language Arts Teacher of the Year and the Utah Christa McAuliffe Fellow, doing a project and working on a follow-up book about Contemporary Adolescent Literature for Parents and Teachers. I am the 2000 Juvenile Book Division Winner for the Utah Arts Council Original Writing Contest with my novel Just Like Elizabeth Taylor which is currently being sent by my agent to locate a publication home. This novel also won the 1999 League of Utah Writer's Children's Book category in their annual writing contest. My other novel Leona & Me, Helen Marie was the 2nd place winner. I've also won contests in articles, poetry, and screenplay in several venues. I've been involved in writing a long time and have been published both nationally and internationally in magazines such as Scouting, LDS Entertainment and Lifestyles, U.s and German Teen magazines, and the Church News. I was an Associate Producer for Alan Osmond's Stadium of Fire and wrote scripts for those shows for several years. I was a freelance editor, copy editor, and reader for Covenant Books for a couple of years, working under Valarie Holladay. I had the priviledge of working on some great books while there--On Wings of Love; Arianna: The Making of A Queen; Macady to name a few. I'm a member of the Spanish Fork Arts Council, the 2nd Vice-President of the Utah Council of Teachers of English, and past State President of the League of Utah Writers. (Have you discovered yet that I'm an over-achiever?) I'm an avid reader and participate in a local book club and a writing critique group (Annette Lyon is in my group). Adolescent literature is my absolute favorite, but I read an incredible amount of LDS fiction as well, always trying to keep my knowledge and skills up for writing, editing, and teaching about books. I live in Spanish Fork with my husband, who works in the movie industry, and our two sons (ages 6 & 7). I'm a native Hoosier and graduated from Indiana University (yes, I did like Bobby Knight.) I've been in Utah since 1983, so I guess this is as much home as anyplace. I look forward to getting to know more about each of you as I read your posts. Thanks for letting me be a part of this group. Lu Ann --------------0405B3556E693D1B9F9D06E9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      I thought since I'm new to this list-serve and since I've actually been posting on occasion, I should take a minute to introduce myself as has been suggested earlier by the moderator and list members.
     My name is Lu Ann Brobst Staheli. I teach English, Creative Writing for Publication, and Reading is Fun at Payson Jr. High School. I was the 1999 Utah English/Language Arts Teacher of the Year and the Utah Christa McAuliffe Fellow, doing a project and working on a follow-up book about Contemporary Adolescent Literature for Parents and Teachers.
     I am the 2000 Juvenile Book Division Winner for the Utah Arts Council Original Writing Contest with my novel Just Like Elizabeth Taylor which is currently being sent by my agent to locate a publication home. This novel also won the 1999 League of Utah Writer's Children's Book category in their annual writing contest. My other novel Leona & Me, Helen Marie was the 2nd place winner. I've also won contests in articles, poetry, and screenplay in several venues.
     I've been involved in writing a long time and have been published both nationally and internationally in magazines such as Scouting, LDS Entertainment and Lifestyles, U.s and German Teen magazines, and the Church News. I was an Associate Producer for Alan Osmond's Stadium of Fire and wrote scripts for those shows for several years. I was a freelance editor, copy editor, and reader for Covenant Books for a couple of years, working under Valarie Holladay. I had the priviledge of working on some great books while there--On Wings of Love; Arianna: The Making of A Queen; Macady to name a few.
     I'm a member of the Spanish Fork Arts Council, the 2nd Vice-President of the Utah Council of Teachers of English, and past State President of the League of Utah Writers. (Have you discovered yet that I'm an over-achiever?) I'm an avid reader and participate in a local book club and a writing critique group (Annette Lyon is in my group). Adolescent literature is my absolute favorite, but I read an incredible amount of LDS fiction as well, always trying to keep my knowledge and skills up for writing, editing, and teaching about books.
     I live in Spanish Fork with my husband, who works in the movie industry, and our two sons (ages 6 & 7). I'm a native Hoosier and graduated from Indiana University (yes, I did like Bobby Knight.) I've been in Utah since 1983, so I guess this is as much home as anyplace.
    I look forward to getting to know more about each of you as I read your posts. Thanks for letting me be a part of this group.
            Lu Ann --------------0405B3556E693D1B9F9D06E9-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum Fiction (was: Shaken Faith and Truth) Date: 27 Nov 2000 21:08:31 -0700 On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:47:11 -0700, Christopher Bigelow wrote: >I wonder if most readers place so much importance on story order? This is a good question. Fact is, I don't put a lot of importance on story order. Except. Except when I'm getting to know the editorial opinions of a new magazine. When I am getting to know a new publication (whether brand new or just new to me), I use every tool at my disposal to try to understand their criteria so that I know what I can expect in the future. I don't have a ton of time I can afford to waste on non-family, non-income producing endeavors. I've become kind of judgmental of my hobbies as a result. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Date: 27 Nov 2000 20:24:15 -0800 (PST) I think you are too quick, Jacob, to throw words like "faithless" around. Because a story did not increase your faith, or because you failed to see how the characters in it could be faithful and still not respond to problems the way you would have does not mean that it is a faithless piece. (I also disliked your use of "repulsive," but since it obviously repulsed you, I cannot argue that point. I'm just sad that it seems that the only reason it repulsed you is the same reason that you called it faithless, which is a faulty label, IMO.) I thoroughly enjoyed the story and didn't see it as faithless at all. I believe that faith is an acting in the face of doubt, not just a knowing all the answers. This man didn't know how to help his daughter. I, as a survivor of the death of a family member, silently cheered when he did not give her all of the trite, overused "scriptural" cliches that roll so quickly off the tongues of well-meaning, "faithful" church members in the face of tragedy. Yes, having a clear view of the eternal scheme of things is comforting. Yes, the scriptures and prayer are comforting. But grief is real, even to the most diehard of believers, and it just isn't helpful to be told things like "God must have had a reason" and "It's all for the best" and "Don't worry, you'll see him again" and "This life is but a small moment." This faithful man saw with spiritual eyes that some griefs just have to be walked alone. I felt that he made an extremely wise choice by giving his daughter space and then letting her see the honest truth: that sometimes life just HURTS. This is not a lack of faith. This is seeing clearly. All I can tell from your protests, especially when you ask "Could we see the hand of God at all?" is that the story was rotten because this father did not respond the way you think a "faithful" father would, and because nothing else in the story intervened to relieve this daughter of her pain. Is that what you are saying? What sort of intervention, I wonder, would have made this a "faithful" story to you? And how realistic would this intervention have been? For me and for many readers, a story that is not shy about showing the true pain of life is a thousand times more powerful in building faith than one which feels preachy or too idealistic. ==== Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] JOHNSON & LEFFLER, _Jews and Mormons: Two Houses of Israel_ (Review) Date: 28 Nov 2000 03:52:56 GMT Review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Frank J. Johnson and Rabbi William J. Leffler, "Jews and Mormons: Two Houses of Israel." 2000, Hoboken, New Jersey, Ktav Publishing House Inc. Hardback, 206 pages + appendices, $24.95 Review by Jeffrey Needle Johnson and Leffler were, according to the preface, roommates atDartmouth College in the late 1940's and early 1950's. They maintained acorrespondence after graduation, and decided finally to reflect some of their discussions in this intensely interesting book. Johnson is a High Priest is the Mormon church, and thus comes to the discussion from arather orthodox point of view. Leffler, on the other hand, is a Reforme dRabbi, arguably one of the most liberal branches of Judiasm. The first eight chapters alternate between the two writers; the ninth is a summary chapter titled "Areas of Misunderstanding and Discussion." It must be seen first that this book is amazingly accessible. Thesubject matter is such that it could easily get bogged down in arcane discussions of belief and practice. Instead, the presentations arecogent and convincing, each man reflecting his point of view withrespect, but with conviction. Rabbi Leffler ------------- Rabbi Leffler captures the essence of the Jewish/Mormon dialogue in what I considered a key observation: "As the reader will see in Mr. Johnson's chapters, he frequently present sa dichotomy of right or wrong, true or false. Mormonism tends to view the world in this fashion. There are few gray areas; very littleambivalence. It is an either/or approach to life's questions andsituations. In sharp contrast, Judaism's approach is both/and. We tend to see nuances, options, alternatives in many of life's challenges. As aresult, Judaism may well encompass conflicting views on the same subject without feeling a need to accept one and negate the other." (p. 3) He enlarges later: "...there is no formalized set of beliefs that all Jews will or must hol dand must affirm in some public way in order to be Jewish. However, the lack of defined belief does not mean that there are no central Jewish religious ideas. There are myriads. Rather it means that conformity of belief is not a part of Judaism or of being a Jew. Thus if one were to ask, 'What do Jews believe about such-and-such?', there would be nosingle anser, no dogma, accepted by all Jews." (p. 43) Rabbi Leffler's explication of Judaism is just plain excellent, no other word will do. As a Jew, I especially appreciated his broad understandin gof the wide range of Jewish belief and practice. As a Jewish convert to Christianity, however, he did make me squirm a bit. He is unequivocal in his rejection of the idea of an individual converting to any other system of religion and still considering himself a Jew, as I do. In speaking of the instances wherein a person can be excluded from the Jewish community: "This is the situation with any group or person that declares that one can be Jewish and at the same time hold a belief in Jesus as the Messiah ,a doctrine central to Christianity and totally rejected by Judaism. To many Christians, this parameter is confusing because, as we have pointed out, Judaism does not require theological conformity or agreement to be aJew. Nonetheless the affirmation of the core belief of another religion is beyond the parameter." (p. 139) Mr. Johnson ----------- Johnson, the Mormon High Priest, likewise presents his faith in a way totally familiar to most LDS. His reading of the history and thedoctrine are standard stuff, but will likely be found very interesting b yJewish readers who may pick up this book. (Note that Ktav Publishing House is a Jewish concern, assuring that this book will likely find its way into the hands of many who would never step into an LDS bookstore.) Unlike Rabbi Leffler, I thought that Johnson made a few missteps, at least one very regrettable. Perhaps my Jewish sensibilities are too sharp to have missed this, but I also note that Leffler, in a chapter preceding Johnson's missteps, warns there reader that some of whatJohnson has to say may be "offensive" to some Jews. Sadly, I have to agree. I'll mention the one that really caught my attention. The first appendi xto the book is the full text of Orson Hyde's dedicatory prayer inJerusalem in 1841. Johnson, in observing this notable visit anddedication, states: "Mormons see the gathering of the Jews to the State of Israel primarily as a political event rather than a spiritual one, but many Latter-day Saints follow events there with particular interest. Orson Hyde'sdedicatory prayer in Jerusalem in 1841, petitioning the Lord for the return of 'Judah's scattered remnants' to the land of Palestine, makes Mormons the first Zionists, well ahead of the Jewish political Zionists of the late nineteenth century." (p. 162) Let's begin with a look at Talmage's "Articles of Faith," and hisunderstanding of the gathering of Israel: "Book of Mormon Prophecies=97The gathering of Israel claimed the attenti onof many prophets whose teachings are recorded in the Book of Mormon, and not a little direct revelation concerning the subject is preserved withi nthe pages of that volume. We have noted Lehi's discourse in the valley o fLemuel, in which that patriarch-prophet compared the house of Israel to an olive-tree, the branches of which were to be broken off and scattered ;now we may add his prediction regarding the subsequent grafting-in of th ebranches. He taught that, "after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of theolive-tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in ,or come to a knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeeme r." " James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 301.) And further: "Among the most comprehensive predictions regarding the restoration of the Jews is this utterance of Nephi: "Wherefore, the Jews shall bescattered among all nations; yea, and also Babylon shall be destroyed; wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered by other nations. And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nation sfor the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son o fGod, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind=97and when tha tday shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things. And the Lord will set his hand again the second time to restore his people from their lost and fallen state. Wherefore, he will proceed to do a marvelou swork and a wonder among the children of men." " James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 302.) I find it a bit difficult to understand Johnson's feeling that Mormons are "the first Zionists." And I think real Zionist's would object to this characterization. The prayer of Orson Hyde says much on thismatter: "Grant, therefore, O Lord, in the name of Thy well-beloved Son Jesus Christ, to remove the barrenness and sterility of this land, and let springs of living water break forth to water its thirsty soil. Let the vine and olive produce in their strength, and the figtree bloom andflourish. Let the land become abundantly fruitful when possessed by its rightful heirs; let it again flow with plenty to feed the returningprodigals who come home with a spirit of grace and supplication upon it; let the clouds distil virtue and richness, and let the fields smile with plenty. Let the and the greatly and upon the mountains and the hills ;and let Thy great kindness conquer and subdue the unbelief of Thy people .Do Thou take from them their stony heart, and give them a heart of flesh ;and may the Sun of Thy favor dispel the cold mists of darkness which hav ebeclouded their atmosphere. Incline them to gather in upon this land according to Thy word. Let them come like clouds and like doves to their windows. Let the large ships of the nations bring them from the distant isles; and let kings become their nursing fathers, and queens withmotherly fondness wipe the tear of sorrow from their eyes." (Quoted in:) (N. B. Lundwall, Temples of the Most High [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1993], 256 =96 257.) For Mormons, as with most Christians, the regathering of Israel, the return to Palestine, has significant spiritual import, and it isinextricably linked to the acknowledgment of the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. To link this hope with authentic Zionism seems a bit much. In another place, Johnson offers a footnote (page 161) that was just plain puzzling: "In passing, one cannot help noting how interesting it is thatMaimonides's Thirteen Principles of Faith, mentioned by Rabbi Leffler in chapter 3, has a counterpart in Mormonism's Thirteen Articles of Faith." Quite apart from the fact that the original "Articles of Faith" were fourteen in number, not thirteen, I wondered just what Johnson wasgetting at, other than the similarity in number. Yes, a minor point, bu tit did puzzle me. In one place, the question of the authorship of the chapter was a bit curious. Chapter 7, ostensibly written by Rabbi Leffler, makes thefollowing statement: "Unfortunately Christians seldom recognize this problem, as Mr. Johnson has at times found in presenting his Mormonism to Rabbi Leffler." (p. 132) With both gentlemen spoken of in the third person (and this is the only place in the book where this occurs), I wondered just who wrote this paragraph. Ending this lengthy review, I must in the end heartily recommend this fine volume to any who want to understand the potential for dialogue between Jews and Mormons. Mormons will enjoy it as it offers a concise, yet complete and sympathetic understanding of contemporary Judaism. And Jews will enjoy the energetic debate and the introductory understanding of Mormonism that this book offers. --Jeffrey Needle E-mail: jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Creative Actions" Subject: [AML] Re: References to Native Americans in Mormon Lit. Date: 27 Nov 2000 21:44:26 -0800 I am on the list. Thanks for the suggestions, Preston. I hope I hear from others. --Jacqui Garcia - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Date: 27 Nov 2000 22:18:22 -0700 Jacob Proffitt said: . My > apologies to those > >authors, but I can't handle the continuing messages about my > faith that are > >devoid of an active, loving, comforting God anymore.>>> I just read the story because of what Jacob has said about it. So I thank him for bringing up the topic and directing me to "Faith of Our Fathers." My cousin's son died this past summer in a very similar way. I've talked to his mother as she has described the agonizing experience that this death was for his friends--young people similar to the characters in Rawlins' story. I've also listened to her describe the comfort God has blessed her with. But she also told me that at times the comfort leaves and she is faced with the black reality of his death. I thought Rawlins' story was marvelous. It touched me with the absolute honesty of its voice. Why, when sudden and tragic death occurs, do we as a culture tend to rush in with easy answers: God wanted him to perform a mission, it was his time, etc. This story points out that sometimes life and death, from our perspective, are absolutely random. A friend of mine who recently lost his wife to cancer explained at her funeral that both of them had come to accept that this earthly experience has a chaotic nature. God places us in this system in which we are subject to the laws of nature. Divine intervention may occur--but sometimes it just doesn't happen! I didn't find this story "faithless" at all. It showed a father filled with love, trying to respond authentically to his daughter's pain. It inspires me that he would care enough to try to see it from her perspective, to not try to "fix" her feelings immediately, to not force an understanding upon her that may take time to occur. Why do we think God put us here in the first place? To have to face the difficult challenges, to try and find meaning in suffering. Victor Frankl says in _Man's Search for Meaning_ that the experience of the Nazi death camps was that human beings can find meaning in suffering. This story shows a father and a daughter struggling with that all-important task. The fact that the father loves his daughter enough to relive her experience is tremendously uplifting to me. It shows me that God's love may be very similar to this father's love--that he lets us struggle sometimes so that we can learn. I believe in a loving God who answers prayers. But I have to say that I=92v e had people tell me their prayers were not answered. In fact, some of my own prayers seem to go unanswered. In the tradition of my church and my belief system, I try to understand that maybe the answer is =93no,=94 maybe I have to be patient, maybe God=92s will becomes apparent over time, maybe I=92m asking for something that I shouldn=92t have, maybe I am misunderstanding the answer or not in tune enough to get it, maybe I lack faith, and all the other ways we explain such apparent lack of response. So what do people do when they have that experience=97the experience of not getting an answer? If all their reading and the lessons in church tell them that prayers are always answered, they may falter in their faith. Perhaps stories that explore the unanswered prayer situation can actually help us deal with that scenario if and when it occurs in our own lives. Trying to listening to God=92s inspiration, trying to feel his will and figure out what his answers are some of the most common of human experiences. To write about that struggle is to help us all to try and figure it out. Fiction is, by definition, made up=97not true. But ironically, one of my criteria for whether or not fiction is worthwhile is its honesty. I want to trust the story to tell me the author=92s authentic experience of life. If the story tells me about what another human being has experienced then I think it has value. How can I dismiss it and say that it is not my experience and so I don=92t want anything to do with it? Don=92t I have the obligation to at least listen to this human voice that I have encountered and to try and understand it? I may disagree and I may ultimately reject it as invalid. But perhaps in that process I am enriched. I want to read a variety of voices and perceptions about the human experience. I don=92t want to limit myself to what I immediately agree with. On the other hand, I can be overloaded quickly with =93disturbing=94 material. When I was a student at BYU studying literature I remember that during the semester I read Steinbeck and Hemingway I started to feel depressed=97what I interpreted as their =93faithless=94 attitudes strongly affected me. So nobody is forcing anybody to read something he does=92t want to read. I certainly don=92t want a steady diet of negativity or of agony and suffering. But I think I grow a little when I choose to listen to such voices and try to figure out how I feel about them. What I term =93good=94 literature offers me that growth experience and that challenge. Sometimes I think that =93disturbing=94 fiction demands to be discussed. In classroom situations students have the opportunity to say why they detest something and to analyze that reaction a bit. Then they can hear someone else=92s experience and try to understand it. By the time the discussion is over all parties involved are enlightened. This list discussion is good for that reason I think. [Gae Lyn Henderson] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art (was Anti-Intellectualism) Date: 25 Sep 2000 14:34:07 -0600 Richard, maybe you will find the answers you seek when you see "Joyful Noise" during its two week Christmas run at Pioneer Theatre. Nan McCulloch -----Original Message----- [snip] Now here's what is curious to me. Who actually wrote this Chorus? It is unquestionably in Handel's style. Did he write it in the pre-existence? Was he plagorizing, halucinating, or was his pre-existent work revealed to him in this experience? Is that how we receive inspiration for our art? How do you suppose all this works? Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruth Subject: re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Ceremonies_ Date: 27 Nov 2000 21:43:33 -0800 (PST) >No harm meant to her by me. She was just mentally insane, as the Salon article says. That is sorta evident by her book. I wonder how non-Mormon readers come away after reading it? Do they believe Mormonism drove her to it? Do they think it will do that to everyone? And do they think she is normal? Alan Mitchell ****** I don't believe Mormonism "drove" Deborah Laake to write the book she did. Nor do I think the LDS church was the sole source of her unhappiness. And, no, I didn't think she was "normal" in the sense of being a mainstream Mormon. To get a sense of both the mainstream and the rebels, I try to read across the spectrum, the positive and the negative, as I do with Jewish writers. _Secret Ceremonies_ is... um, negative. I picked up the book because I was interested in its efforts at ultimate betrayal. What would motivate a person to wreak such revenge on her faith? I have to admit I was curious, perhaps more so about her motives than anything else. It was a pretty painful read. When I mentioned _Secret Ceremonies_ to my mother, I was surprised to learn she had already read it, as had several of her friends. What was this group of spry, dutiful, suburban grandmother-types doing reading about the frustrations of a sexually and spiritually disgruntled ex-Mormon? From their comments I gathered they'd been looking for a narrative of emancipation. Not any one of these women in my mother's circle is an outward feminist. But they all wondered what it must be like for their daughters' generation, which seems to have had so much more freedom. Here was a woman journalist, a good and daring writer, who was telling her lifestory. Did she have the same trials and tribulations as Jewish women? I'd had the same questions myself. I found the Salon article enlightening about Laake's dpression and grandiosity. Did I understand it correctly, I wonder, that the article implied her tragic end was a kind of lonely despair, like _Secret Ceremonies_ left her nowhere to go as a person and an artist afterwards. That's a very sad thought. --Ruth - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Fishers of Men: Deseret Book Press Release Date: 28 Nov 2000 00:30:01 -0700 Tom Matkin wrote: > I found the characters much more vivid and > comfortable than the wooden fictional folk in the Work and the > Glory series. I don't know if it made a difference that it was > the talking book I was using and that I read the other from the > page. Either that or Lund is learning his craft. I'd guess he's learning his craft. Although I don't think "Work & Glory" comes close to great literature, I do consider it a positive step in the right direction for LDS literature. I do believe Lund made an effort (however imperfectly realized) to make his characters and the situations they get into real. There was darkness in "Work & Glory," and dark characters. That alone is an improvement over the past. If anyone can gradually teach Mormon readers to enjoy stronger literature, it's Lund, because he has the power to do so--he's popular. Here's to hoping he's learning how to do it. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art Date: 28 Nov 2000 07:43:11 -0700 on 11/27/00 11:27 AM, Richard R. Hopkins at rrhopkins@horizonpublishers.com wrote: > . The circumstances > that prompt my question come from the experience of George F. Handel when he > was writing the Hallelujah Chorus for Messiah. He relates that a vision > opened to him and he saw and heard a heavenly choir singing the Chorus > before the throne of God. He wrote it down as he heard them sing it. (Great > tear blotches on the original manuscript attest to the powerful spiritual > experience this was for him.) Now here's what is curious to me. Who actually > wrote this Chorus? It is unquestionably in Handel's style. Did he write it > in the pre-existence? Was he plagorizing, halucinating, or was his > pre-existent work revealed to him in this experience? Is that how we receive > inspiration for our art? How do you suppose all this works? Richard, I hope it happened this way, but there are other versions of this story as well. At the very least the grain of truth in it has been mightily embellished by well-meaning storytellers through the years. Steve -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum Fiction Date: 28 Nov 2000 11:11:25 -0600 Responding to Jacob's response to Chris's response to Jacob... I think Jacob's reaction highlights the challenge that's faced by any publication, such as _Irreantum_, that attempts to showcase a spectrum of offerings rather than focusing on a particular audience and type of story. In terms of fiction, I doubt that there will ever be more than one story per issue that any given reader will find excellent--simply because the magazine caters to such a wide range of tastes. But then, my opinion may be suspect, since even in selected fiction anthologies, out of 15-20 stories total, I consider an anthology well above average if half the stories give me more enjoyment than the effort that went into reading them, and if two stories make it into my own personal category of excellent... As I see it, _Irreantum_ is a magazine primarily for those who want to know and sample what's going on in the Mormon literary scene. That's why there's so much of publishing news and book reviews, interviews, essays, and, for that matter, AML-List Highlights. This is completely my own opinion, and I don't think this is how it was intended by the magazine founders. But when I analyze the amount of magazine space devoted to creative work, versus these other items, it appears to me that _Irreantum_ is only secondarily an outlet for poetry and fiction. For those of you who are familiar with the science fiction field, I see its role as being more like a _Locus_ of the LDS publishing and literature scene, with some stories thrown in for good measure. I also think--and I see this as related to the previous point--that the kind of trust Chris is talking about and the kind of trust Jacob is talking about are two different things. I think the kind of trust Chris means is that if you read _Irreantum_ over a given period of time, he trusts that you will (a) find a wide spectrum of material that *includes* (but is not limited to) what appeals to you; (b) find material that is well-written and worth knowing about, even when it represents a type that you personally dislike. Jacob, on the other hand, seems (by my interpretation) to interpret Chris's invitation to trust as meaning that the editor will consistently select pieces that Jacob (or any individual reader) will find enjoyable and worthwhile--a very different thing. I don't think _Irreantum_ (or any magazine) can do both things: appeal strongly and develop the trust of a particular readership, while at the same time reflecting a variety of literary tastes and spiritual perspectives. The only readers who will consistently like _Irreantum_'s offerings are those who want to be exposed to a variety of different things, including--paradoxically--those they don't like. Which makes _Irreantum_'s readership in one way not so much a spectrum as a niche market of its own, consisting of those who have an interest in the idea of a broad spectrum-like community of Mormon letters. Perhaps this is an overly pessimistic view. It may be that simply because there are no other magazines publishing much Mormon fiction, there will be many fans of different genres (e.g., Mormon-associated sf&f, or Mormon-cultural realism) who don't have a great interest in other types of fiction, but who subscribe to _Irreantum_ anyway because it's one of only a few sources of what they like. Presumably, such readers would read the fiction that interests them, but skip over the rest. But given the small number of stories published in each issue, I think it's unlikely that any reader of this sort will find more than 1-2 stories per issue that appeal to his/her individual interests. That seems like a pretty slim basis for picking up a magazine. So we're back to a readership that either has a strong interest in the nonfiction pieces, or wants to read a broad spectrum of fiction writing--in short, back to those with an interest in _Irreantum_ as the voice/forum for an entire community of Mormon letters, as opposed to seeing it as an outlet for the type of creative works they particularly like. Having written this, I don't know whether it makes a great deal of sense, or will to anyone except me. However, I guess I'll send it off anyway... Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art Date: 28 Nov 2000 10:35:17 -0700 Okay, how about this for Handel. He probably wasn't inspired much at all when he wrote the Hallelujah chorus. He stole a lot of it from some earlier opera he'd written. The Messiah was a commercial product, written at a time when his career was on the rocks, in an effort to make a buck. Handel was a pro, an entertainer. He wrote operas because that was what he did for a living, and turned to oratorios because the public taste shifted. Tim Slover is a wonderful writer, and he's written a number of superb plays over the years. But then he got the idea of writing about Handel and about how Handel wrote Messiah. And that play, A Joyful Noise, has become Tim's biggest commercial success, with an off-Broadway run, performances at a number of theatres across the country--right now, it's at PTC, Pioneer Theatre Company, Utah's biggest professional company. I think Joyful Noise is a wonderful play, an inspired play, perhaps. I do think good work can be inspired by God. And when Tim wrote it, he was drawn to the subject because it said something about the atonement that Tim believes in with all his heart. But Tim also wrote the play because he thought it would be commercially successful, which indeed it has become. Same thing for Handel. He was broke, and he needed a hit. He wrote Messiah as a commercial venture. Tim thinks that the play also had religious resonances for Handel, and Tim finds the music deeply spiritual, as do I. But Handel, in writing it, stole melodies from other, more secular works of his and of others. Messiah is a patchwork; it was slammed together hastily, full of borrowings and plagiarisms. So there are multiple ironies here worth exploring. Handel was not some musical saint, fervently and prayerfully trying to capture a specific kind of inspiration. He was a talented hack, a pro trying to make a buck, trying to write something that would get some butts in the seats of his theater. Tim Slover is likewise a commercial playwright, a guy who's trying to make ends meet through his writing. They belong together, and both Messiah and Joyful Noise are marvelous artistic creations, and both are deeply spiritual and deeply inspirational. Point is, this whole inspiration thing gets very complicated. I write Music and the Spoken Word, for example. The point of that kind of writing is to Be Inspirational, to Be Uplifting. And I meet the other writers for Spoken Word, and they talk about how they get the music for their program, and they pray about it, and they agonize over each word, and write multiple drafts, and pray over each draft. For me, it's a job; I do it for the money, and I want to write it as quickly as possible and be done with it, and I don't pray about it. I re-write if I have to, but if the first draft works okay, I don't bother. I figure, the faster I write it, the higher my hourly wage. Am I inspired? I don't feel inspired. But I doubt audiences can tell the difference. And I get letters from folks who say how inspirational they found one of my SWs, and I appreciate those notes very much, and also feel a bit fraudulant. I think the Spirit can and does inspire great works of art. I feel the Spirit when I hear the Hallelujah chorus (though I prefer For Unto Us). I feel the Spirit when I read King Lear. I also feel the Spirit when I hear Dylan sing Tangled Up in Blue, or John Coltrane play Dakar, or Aretha Franklin sing essentially anything. I even feel the Spirit when I read the science writings of avowed agnostic Stephen Jay Gould. I think the Spirit is there, helping any honest craftsman. And works by people who are really trying to feel the Spirit and use it in their work can often become pretty sentimental and forced and not so good. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art Date: 28 Nov 2000 10:41:21 -0700 >>. The circumstances >> that prompt my question come from the experience of George F. Handel when he >> was writing the Hallelujah Chorus for Messiah. He relates that a vision >> opened to him and he saw and heard a heavenly choir singing the Chorus >> before the throne of God. He wrote it down as he heard them sing it. (Great >> tear blotches on the original manuscript attest to the powerful spiritual >> experience this was for him.) Steve Perry responded: >I hope it happened this way, but there are other versions of this >story as >well. At the very least the grain of truth in it has been mightily >embellished by well-meaning storytellers through the years. Steve was too kind. This story about the angelic chorus is an invention. Handel borrowed the Hallelujah chorus from an earlier opera. No tear stains on the manuscript either, unfortunately. Though, given his habits, he may have spilled a bit of whiskey there. Sorry, folks, but this is a nifty piece of folklore, on a par with George Washington's cherry tree. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Date: 28 Nov 2000 13:26:16 -0500 I don't think Jacob was asking for the character to supply easy or trite answers. I think he was looking for the character to 'act' as a faithful Mormon should/would/could. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Jacob). Did the character get on his knees and really pray? And if he didn't, why not? Did he search the scriptures for comfort and answers? And if he didn't, why not? It's not so much a matter of finding quick answers, trite answers, tough answers, or no answers, It's about how Mormons are portrayed going about finding the answers or working through life's challenges. This reminds me of a little discussion that took place sometime ago. It may have been triggered by a post from a NY publisher looking for an epic Mormon novel. Someone commented that we needed literature that showed Mormons solving problems and so forth without all the 'praying' stuff. That obviously is not a quote but it is what I understood the post to be saying. When reading the post about the novel, I got the feeling that they wanted a central Mormon character, but not the religious part of being Mormon. How can you write a novel about a believing Mormon woman and not have her praying, going to the temple, believing in God, feeling bad when she falls short, repenting, attending RS or teaching YW or primary, and on and on. It's not that the character should be perfect, or perfect in doing the right things, or finding all the answers in nanoseconds. But why would we want to portray an active, believing Mormon not even trying to living the gospel. Unless the point is to show the character as a hypocrite. Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- Jacob Proffitt said: . My > apologies to those > >authors, but I can't handle the continuing messages about my > faith that are > >devoid of an active, loving, comforting God anymore.>>> I just read the story because of what Jacob has said about it. So I thank him for bringing up the topic and directing me to "Faith of Our Fathers." My cousin's son died this past summer in a very similar way. I've talked to his mother as she has described the agonizing experience that this death was for his friends--young people similar to the characters in Rawlins' story. I've also listened to her describe the comfort God has blessed her with. But she also told me that at times the comfort leaves and she is faced with the black reality of his death. (and so forth) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 28 Nov 2000 11:38:25 -0700 Both Darlene Young and Gae Lyn Henderson called me on the carpet for calling "Faith of the Fathers" faithless. Each gave examples where their own personal experience mirrored the story and found resonance. I can't argue with personal experience or how their experience might find resonance in the story. All I can do is try to explain why I think that "Faith of the =46athers" is faithless and why it was so disturbing to me. =46irst, I don't have any problem thinking this story might accurately portray an individual's experience--even a faithful LDS experience. In fact, I would have been far less critical of the story if the structure and title had reflected an individual experience. But the setup for the story starting right from the title and continuing throughout the story in the absence of key specific detail all contribute to making this story stand for the general LDS experience. By allowing the reader to contribute key details and keeping distant from some experiences we are drawn to accept this story as universal. So while this story may be a true representation for an individual, and perfectly valid as such, I do *not* find it representative of the faithful experience in general as it so carefully claims to be. I don't want stories with no suffering. I thought most of the suffering in the story was perfectly valid. I had no trouble accepting the pain and questioning of the daughter in the story. I don't even mind the jabs at all those oh so facile answers people give in the face of tragedy. As I stated in a previous message, I too am tired of the too easy answer that "xxx was called home" and the imperious determinism that implies. My problem is with the father, not the death or the daughter's trouble with it. This is supposedly a faithful LDS father. He is the title character. This story is about his faith and how it is representative of the faith of all faithful LDS fathers. And yet, we don't see him exercise any faith at all. He spends all his time wringing his hands trying to understand his daughter and suffering a crisis of faith that is never adequately identified let alone dealt with. I have had crises of faith. I know what it feels like. I have had times where my family is going through things that I don't understand and where it is time for me to help and I'm not sure how. When this happens, it is time to get back to basics. It is time for prayer, for study, and for paying attention to your family. It is *not* time for turning inward and taking stupid risks in the wilderness. Introspection is one thing, and important, but his daughter is in crisis and it is time for him to come out of himself and put all his resources into helping her. Frankly, I wouldn't have minded his little stunt either, if it had lent him some sense and understanding enough to help. But it didn't. So to respond again to Darlene and Gae Lyn who found it an accurate portrayal of suffering and grief at death, I did not have a problem with the daughter. I had no trouble with the pain associated with a death that makes no sense and is so very tragic. My problem with this story is as a father of faith presented with a story that purports to represent fathers of faith. I can understand him feeling helpless. But his reaction to his own helplessness is selfish and in the end of no assistance to the suffering of his daughter. So on that level, I found this story repulsive. And faithless. Yes, that is a personal response. Yes, I have no trouble with it being true on an individual level. I don't even have trouble with the depiction of grief and loss. But on the level where it supposedly represents me and a valid response to the hurt of a child, it does not resonate at all. It is not time to question your own faith just because your child is in pain. If anything, it is time to draw as close as you can to God so that you can be there when it is time to be and back off when it is time. It is in times of family crisis that you turn to God, not your own problems. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art Date: 28 Nov 2000 18:45:04 GMT Was he plagorizing, halucinating, or was his > > pre-existent work revealed to him in this experience? Is that how we receive > > inspiration for our art? How do you suppose all this works? This brings us to the curious work of channellers, who say they receive their work direct. There's a Mozart composing group in SLC, I hear, who claim they receive their work directly from Mozart himself. When you listen to their stuff, however, you hear what sounds like uninspired rip-offs :). Most channelled work, such as _Conversations with God_, has some interesting material but doesn't seem to work well artistically. I think the inspiration process can be a mixed bag. Sometimes to me it seems that a poem or a story is already formed in my soul and head and I just put it into form. Sometimes it's just hard work to create it. Cathy Gileadi Wilson Editing Etc. This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] References to Native Americans in Mormon Lit. Date: 28 Nov 2000 14:56:19 -0700 Susan Kroupa has a couple stories that have Hopi Indians. They are: Kroupa, Susan J. "The Healer." In _L. Ron Hubbard Presents Writers of the Future_, vol. 10. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, 1994. Reprinted in _Vision Quests: Science Fiction and Fantasy Tales of Shamanism_. Boston: Angelus Press, 1995. Kroupa, Susan J. "Scapegoat." _Realms of Fantasy_ 3 (October 1996). Orson Scott Card's "America" may fit what you're looking for. Published in _Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine_ 11 (January 1987). Reprinted in _1988 Annual World's Best SF_. New York: DAW, 1988. Reprinted in _The Year's Best Science Fiction: Fifth Annual Collection_. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1988. Reprinted in _The Folk of the Fringe_. Also, Card's Tales of Alvin Maker series, especially _Red Prophet_, deals with Native Americans, as does _Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus_ to some extent. Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] JOHNSON & LEFFLER, _Jews and Mormons: Two Houses of Date: 28 Nov 2000 15:40:21 -0700 Jeff, If I recall properly, you also read _How Wide the Divide_, written by Stephen Robinson, and an Evangelical whose name escapes me. How would you compare the two books, other than the obvious? Roy - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum Fiction Date: 28 Nov 2000 11:01:44 -0700 Jonathan Langford wrote: > As I see it, _Irreantum_ is a magazine primarily for those who want to know > and sample what's going on in the Mormon literary scene. That's why > there's so much of publishing news and book reviews, interviews, essays, > and, for that matter, AML-List Highlights. This is completely my own > opinion, and I don't think this is how it was intended by the magazine > founders. But when I analyze the amount of magazine space devoted to > creative work, versus these other items, it appears to me that _Irreantum_ > is only secondarily an outlet for poetry and fiction. > I think you're right about this, Jonathan. And whether or not this was the intent of the founders, I think it's great! Personally, that's exactly what I am interested in--knowing what's happening in all the various arenas of the Mormon literary scene. Where else are you going to find a LDS publication that focuses on everything from drama to poetry to science fiction to children's literature? I appreciate the balance that the editors of _Irreantum_ are trying to achieve. I am not generally a reader of speculative fiction, but I've enjoyed reading what my fellow LDS writers are doing in this genre. While I don't find all the short stories published in _Irreantum_ equally satisfying, I'm always interested in seeing what's out there. I personally felt that "Faith of the Fathers" was a much more artful and and "true" story than some of the others published in the same issue. Jacob disagrees. I think that's cool. We can both find stories that we love, stories that speak to our own hearts, stories that appeal to our very different tastes in the very same magazine! _Irreantum_ was set up to be a forum for "exploring Mormon Literature." I would hate to see that exploration limited in any way. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] References to Native Americans in Mormon Lit. Date: 28 Nov 2000 11:05:17 -0700 > Hi. I'm doing a little research. Can any of you name me some works of > Mormon lit. which make more than passing reference to Native Americans? I'd > appreciate it. Thanks--Jacqui Garcia _The Earthkeepers_, Marilyn Brown _Circle Dance_, Sharlee Mullins Glenn - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: Re: [AML] JOHNSON & LEFFLER, _Jews and Mormons: Two Houses of Date: 29 Nov 2000 01:28:54 GMT Very sharp of you indeed to remember that, my friend! Yes, I did read, and review, "How Wide the Divide," a few years ago, and had it much in m ymind as I did this review. The main difference in the two books, in my opinion, is that "Jews and Mormons" is much less an attempt to reconcile the two religioustraditions than was "Wide." The underlying thought in"Wide" was, "Yes, we're different, but we really have a lot in common, and we really ought to get along better." "Jews and Mormons," on the other hand, works on the assumption that they really are different world sin nearly every way. Little time was spent on the similarities. The result was a book that was less accomodationist than "Wide." This is where I see the main difference between the books. > Jeff, > If I recall properly, you also read _How Wide the Divide_, written by > Stephen Robinson, and an Evangelical whose name escapes me. How would > you compare the two books, other than the obvious? > Roy - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Date: 28 Nov 2000 19:33:22 -0800 (PST) Tracy said, "I think he was looking for the character to 'act' as a faithful Mormon should/would/could. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Jacob). Did the character get on his knees and really pray? And if he didn't, why not? Did he search the scriptures for comfort and answers?" and then "How can you write a novel about a believing Mormon woman and not have her praying, going to the temple, believing in God, feeling bad when she falls short, repenting, attending RS or teaching YW or primary, and on and on." Here's my question, which I don't mean to apply particularly to Rawlins' story: because a story does not narrate the praying or the RS attendance, must we assume the character didn't pray or go to church? How much of the practice of being Mormon must we make explicit? Using Rawlins' story just for an example, I honestly didn't assume that since the praying scenes were not included then the character must not have been praying and reading scriptures. Apparently, some people did. Is there some sort of loyalty we owe to our beliefs that requires us to make these things explicit in our stories, or are there times when we can assume that the audience will recognize that God is a part of a character's life, even when we don't show the praying scenes? Or should we conclude that an absence of a prayer scene means an absence of prayer in a character's life? ==== Darlene Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 28 Nov 2000 21:46:10 -0700 >What you're saying is why write a novel about Joseph Smith because Vardis >Fisher did in the the 30's. Well, he did it rather poorly, again seeking to >smear more than explore. No. I'm saying Laake did a wonderful job of smearing by making it sound like she was persecuted by the straight patriarchy. If she meant to have an understanding treatment of the conflicts, the book would have never been picked up. That is my Levi Petersen point--Levi's characters at least have some sympathies toward a few doctrines and are probably more adept at pointing out and understanding the struggle. But was Backslider a national bestseller? No. Too bad. >Until Laake, or anyone else, gets the Shaken Faith story right, I think it's >worth the effort for others to keep trying. And how do you propose Laake gets the story to the publisher? But seriously, unless there is an eventual triumph of the shaken faith, the faith is cast off and useless. Is this the basi of Proffit's shaken faith critique? >It's not everybody's cup of tea. But some of us have been down that Shaken >Faith road. Some of us are traveling down it now, trying to hang on by >whatever's left of our fingernails. In a church where one seems to be >surrounded by people who "know" the truth, it is quite refreshing to >occasionally hear a familiar voice, even if it is as poorly sounded as >Deborah Laake's. I would not describe Laake's voice as refreshing. Try bedazzling. Exhibitionist. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: [AML] O.S. Card and Cults: Have You Seen This Article? Date: 28 Nov 2000 20:49:51 -0700 Hey, Who You Calling a Cult? Orson Scott Card is a leading science fiction writer and a devout Mormon. He was recently asked: Isn't your religion a cult? Read his feisty response. http://www.beliefnet.com/new/cult_calling.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Ceremonies_ Date: 28 Nov 2000 22:03:04 -0700 >To get a sense of both the mainstream and the rebels, I try to read across >the spectrum, the positive and the negative, as I do with Jewish writers. >_Secret Ceremonies_ is... um, negative. I picked up the book because I >was interested in its efforts at ultimate betrayal. What would motivate a >person to wreak such revenge on her faith? I have to admit I was curious, >perhaps more so about her motives than anything else. It was a pretty >painful read. Thank you for your comments--I thought that may have come through the book. The question of why the revenge on faith is not a question for those of us who have read Church History. Why should a Laake surprise us? The best, real Anti-Mormons are ExMormons and have been since the early days. Is this the case with Judaism? I have the impression that the best Antisemites are northern European Nationists. Are there disgrunted Orthodox who bite back? Or do they just find a more liberal flock? > Did she have the same trials and tribulations as Jewish women? I'd had the same questions myself. And the answers? Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 28 Nov 2000 23:14:01 -0700 Rather than looking for a depiction of how faithful Mormons should/would/could act, isn't it much more telling and true to the Mormon experience to depict us as the majority of us really are? Sure, we *should* go directly to the Lord in prayer, search the scriptures, consult our Priesthood leaders, etc. etc., but half the membership of the Church isn't even active, half of those who attend regularly don't have regular FHE or do their HT/VT, and only a small portion of that 25% that's left would probably say they're adequate at taking their problems to the Lord in deep, meaningful personal prayer. So we're down to maybe 12.5% of the membership of the Church. That's a small sample for representing the majority of us as we are: stragglers and strugglers. -- Scott Tarbet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 28 Nov 2000 21:56:09 -0700 I saw "Savior of the World" the other night and have been mulling over ever since how I was going to say what I am going to say about it. It has certainly caused me to think a lot ... however, my thinking isn't anything near what I'm sure the producers want me to think. They want me to be thinking about my savior and ... and I don't know what else. A good friend is in the show and she got me tickets for a preview performance. We've had a few discussions about the play, and how it came about, and how it has changed and lots of other things -- mostly, how it is to work for the church on an artistic endeavor. We've come to the conclusion that ... well, we're depressed. The play (which is a term that can only apply loosely to what this is actually, which is a pageant, but it's not grand enough for that either) was written by committee. And the committee was given specific parameters; a play about Christ in which Christ does not appear, that is very heavily reliant on the use of scripture -- quote it as often as possible, and some others that I have either forgotten or haven't been told. I wanted to like this play. I was excited to see what the church was going to do with this rather splendid new state-of-the-art 900-seat theatre -- which doesn't feel that big, by-the-way. For some time now I have been hoping that at last, the church would head in a new and provocative direction in the field of the arts. Not yet. The play was bland. Nothing dynamic about it at all. The scenes that had potential for that -- Mary telling Joseph that she is with child, the shepherds watching over their flocks by night, the visitations of the angels -- all were static and emotionless. My friend, who's in the show, assures me that there was a little more action, a little more emotion and conflict, before a small committee made up of three of the Council of the Twelve came to preview the show a few times. Thereafter there were pages and pages of changes every day for two weeks that stripped the play of any kind of exuberance. The injunction was to make the play more reverent. The angels were not allowed to talk TO the other charcters any more with any kind of lively feeling, rather they were to talk AT the other characters with flat, solemn attitudes. My friend has had, generally, a positive experience working on the show, but she is very disappointed in the way that things were handled in producing the thing. She says that she is unlikely to ever work for the church again in the capacity of an artist. As she would discuss with the director her disappointment in the watering down of the script she got a lot of justification along the lines of, "The church is not in the business of trying to produce great plays; the church's mission is to save souls." It's quite possible that "Savior of the World" may help to save a few souls, but I can't make myself believe that a play that challenged my thinking and my feelings about the savior would be damaging to the church's mission. In fact, I think it would probably save MORE souls than what this one will do. Here's the thing that depresses me about the church producing mediocre theatre; whether they mean it to happen or not, the plays produced in this theatre will be held up by a mojority of the membership of the church as the standard to which we should all look. I know what that will do to the audience I am trying to reach with plays like "Stones." I will hear this kind of comment, "If your play is worthy of a faithful audience it would be done by the church wouldn't it? If your play is not one that could be produced by the church, it's not a play that should be produced at all." I know this will happen, I've seen it happen. I have heard those words. Here is what I have been thinking ever since I saw the play Friday night: When did exuberance become synonymous with irreverence? I am glad that all the seats for all the performances sold out within days, but I think a play should be appreciated for its merits, not simply because it was produced by the church. When did solemn become synonymous with reverent? When did boring become the ideal? J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN "Savior of the World" Premieres In New Conference Center Date: 29 Nov 2000 00:30:09 EST Theater: Salt Lake Tribune 26Nov00 A1 [From Mormon-News] "Savior of the World" Premieres In New Conference Center Theater SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- "Savior of the World" will premiere Tuesday, November 28, at the new state-of-the-art Conference Center Theatre in downtown Salt Lake City. Utah fans will be part of the welcome party for the new 911 seat LDS Conference Center Theater that fills a void left almost four years ago by the closing of the Promised Valley Playhouse. The new theater will be home to at least three LDS Church sponsored musical productions a year: a Christmas show, an Easter show and a summer show. Musical concerts and other productions will also be held by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "We've had a lot of requests already," said Stephen Hall, theatre manager. The new facility will be the third largest in downtown Salt Lake City after Abravanel Hall, which seats 2,800 and the Capitol Theatre, which seats 1,850. All 28 performances for "Savior of the World" sold out within a week. Due to popular demand the church will repeat "Savior of the World" for three weeks at Easter. "There were people calling in from all over the country," Hall said. Nominal fees of $4 to $7 are being charged to offset production costs. "The church has a long history of encouraging cultural productions," said LDS Church spokesman Dale Kenneth Bills. "This [theatre] is a way of continuing that." Source: New Theater Helps Fulfill Musical Promise Salt Lake Tribune 26Nov00 A1 http://www.sltrib.com:80/11262000/arts/47494.htm By Brandon Griggs: Salt Lake Tribune >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] References to Native Americans in Mormon Lit. Date: 29 Nov 2000 09:13:59 -0700 Dalton, Lee. _The Feather of the Owl_. Bountiful, Utah: Horizon Publishers, 1987. Richardson, Boyd. _Knife Thrower: A Mormon Boy among the Pawnee_. American Fork, Utah: Covenant Communications, 1994. Yorgason, Blaine M. _The Windwalker_. Salt Lake City: Bookraft, 1979. What about Lee Nelson's _Storm Testament_ books and _The Wasatch Savage_? Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 29 Nov 2000 08:09:15 -0700 I can't claim to speak for Jacob, but I think I can understand part of his frustration, and I hope I can articulate some of my own thoughts that touch at the edges of what he's said. Before I say anything else, though, I want to add my appreciation for this list and for Irreantum magazine to that which has gone before. I love the fact that we have a (relatively) easily accessible magazine that presents fiction from a variety of voices, and a forum where we can talk about not just the "classics" of Mormon lit, but the new stories as well. We've tried before to have online reading groups where a specific story or play is posted where we can all get at it, so that we can then have opportunity to discuss our various takes on Mormon lit in the context of a specific example. In this case, Irreantum has served at the common resource, and AML-List as the forum. I love it when a plan comes together! (back to the story) Three main thoughts--POV and the universal father, POV's inaction as key point of contention, and an argument on the definition of faithlessness. POV and the universal father =========================== I have no idea what POV's name is other than "I." I don't recall a last name either, so he can't be "Mr. Somethingorother." For convenience, I'll tend to refer to Liz's dad as either "POV" or "Dad." I mention this because I think the use of first person puts the reader in an odd spot, and helps create the "Universal Father" that seems to frustrate Jacob. By giving us no other label (at least not that I recall) for POV, the reader is forced to decide whether "I" speaks the reader's own thoughts. If so, the device can lead to very strong identification; if not, the device can lead to a strong rejection of POV's viewpoint, and as such, of the narrative premise of the story--regardless of the admirable or agreeable parts of POV's thoughts. My mother-in-law *hates* first person POV, and actively avoids stories that use it for exactly this reason. She almost never universally agrees with POV and thus is knocked out of the story every time their opinions differ. It makes for a very frustrating reading experience for her because she's not able to put POV at a safe conceptual distance. I suspect this contributes to the either/or reaction we've seen so far--those who identified directly, and those who didn't. Had I written the story, I might have provided some reference to POV's name that allowed the reader to firmly separate "I" from POV. This identification issue leads directly to... POV's inaction/points of contention ================================== I found POV's concluding resolution to be wise, insightful, and true to my own experience in dealing with sudden senseless death. But... It comes after several weeks of functional inaction where POV never makes an overt effort to deal with his daughter's pain. This lack of on-stage effort to deal directly with the issue undermines some readers' ability to identify with "I." This is underscored for me by POV's own lament (page 29, top of column 2): == You can't live with a teenager for very long before you've felt foolish in the eyes of your own child. I know what I believe happened to Jeremy. I believe he fell and he died, and because I didn't know him, hadn't met him, that death didn't mean much to me. But he was young. And if I put Elizabeth in his place, the thought makes me wild, opening a chasm that leaves me standing on the dark edge of the world listening to an echo tumble into space, a question that goes on and on. What if God decided to take my daughter? == This passage asks us to identify with our own experience with teenagers and feeling foolish their eyes, but the narrative itself never provided us with an example, making this lament seem a bit hollow to me. If he had tried to help her and failed, this becomes a powerful lament; but because all the prior scenes have shown him being distant from the situation, the lament turns into more of a snivel and undermines the character. The distance is set up earlier in the story when POV doesn't seem to know any of his daughter's friends, though the dead boy's mother seems to have a special intimacy with his daughter (even to the point of calling her Beth--a name unheard-of in POVs own experience with his daughter). The same is true of all the teenagers who huddle around the decedent's mom, but that POV fails to recognize as people that his daughter spends time with. This disconnection from his daughter's life makes it harder for me to identify with him. It seems to be the pattern of his relationship, and makes the fact that he doesn't attempt to talk to her seem less like a thoughtful attempt to give her distance and more like simple laziness and continued disinterest in his child's life. The narrative also undermines POV's final thoughts about simple accident by fairly constantly using the language of determinism when presenting his thoughts. This idea is established very early on (page 25, top of column 1--first scene; emphasis added): == ...When I was in high school, a brother to my girlfriend's best friend was killed when a speeding truck hit a curb and caught air, landing on his brother's car and crushing him inside. Of course he'd taken a different route home that night, with all the stop lights timed to the second, **all the cords of fate humming in a rhythm, to bring him there, that corner, that light, that moment when he should have been someplace else--he always had been.** == I understand that this is intended to illustrate his own 16 year-old sensibility as an analog to what his 16 year-old daughter must be feeling now. But the thought is then picked up later in the story when he asks the rhetorical question, "What if God decided to take my daughter?" Apparently POV does believe--at least somewhat, or at least sometimes--in a deterministic god who *does* set the cords of fate humming while planning to take whom he will. Exactly the idea he appears to reject in other parts of the story, most specifically at the end. Perhaps we're supposed to see this as an evolution of POV's own thoughts on the matter, a moving from his own fear that the platitudes of the "faithful" might bear some weight, to a more general (and I believe correct) belief that sometimes stuff just happens. I accept this as a possibility, but still feel that we didn't see his own passionate struggle with the issue, thus any sense of change in the character is arguable. Which I believe is a key point for some readers--it's hard to become strongly engaged with a character who has no passionate responses, whose primary response is to wait with the thought "If that's a bridge we come to, we'll cross it" (page 29, middle of first column). In other words, I won't deal with the issue until it comes to me, even if I can see it coming. Purely reactive. This is a hallmark of a particular style of mainstream fiction--a detached main character who puts off direct action with a witticism in either dialog or internal monologue. It's a style of fiction I'm not generally satisfied by, though I often admire the artistry of the author in crafting witty sentences, scenes, and images. I suspect part of this is an attempt at authenticity--passionate rage or sorrow is perceived as clearly artificial or sentimental, or else so specific to an individual response as to lose its universality. It does beg the question of what a story should do--attempt to solve problems, or attempt to clearly define problems while leaving solutions to the reader. I think the author's choice to this question determines the literary genre of the resulting story. An effect of the distant POV is that the character assumes universality, becoming that alleged "universal father" that seems to bug Jacob so much. An argument on the definition of "faithlessness" =============================================== Keeping in mind that Mormons believe in works as the evidence of faith, POV's inaction suggests at least a paucity of faith, if not a complete lack of it. This may have been the author's intention; I don't know. I do know that I would like to have seen some direct effort to intervene earlier in the story--and have that attempt fail. This would have given me (as an individual reader) more of a sense of jeopardy for POV and would have made me feel for him, whether I agreed with his expressions of faith or not. For me, it would have been enough for him to simply tell his daughter that he didn't know, that it was something you have to learn for yourself (like other aspects of personal faith). Instead, his only comment on faith is an admirably witty bit of internal monologue: "Faith equals this: God does not even owe you an explanation." If he'd said this to his daughter, I could believe that she would look at him like he was a fool. It appears to be a cynical thought destitute of the hope that the "faithful" determinists are clinging to. It appears to be the opposite of what Mormons believe. In fact, it's a brutally distilled truism that sums up most of what we know about faith (evidence of things not seen, etc.). And while it may be a fact we can know, it's a cold comfort at the time of crisis. My main point being that it would have been nice to see some direct expression of "positive" faith by POV. I think this is the crux of Jacob's frustration and my ambivalence. The only times POV really uses the language of Mormonism is when the grieving friends and family (wrongly, IMO) describe a deterministic God who calls people home (page 26, top of second column), or to illustrate his own teenage experience of testimony meetings devoid of spiritual power (page 28, middle of first column). The implication being that no honest comfort can come from that source since our narrator found none. I believe that POV came to an honest and powerful faith--a more considered and earned faith that transcended the mere hope of others in the story. To forgive God for not fixing all the injustices in the world is to powerfully state your trust in him (or to completely disbelieve in his existence). I choose to believe that POV came to a real faith, and that his final response is very close to that which God himself might feel--to admit that ugly things happen, and that he is very, very sorry that he can't stop them. This may be an intentional metaphor of the story. POV is distant, just as God appears to be distant. We have to come to faith on our own terms--it isn't bestowed on us by our friends or fathers. It's a personal, solitary thing. But I still think someone, *anyone,* in the story could have had evident intelligent faith and use the language of Mormonism to describe it. Just a sentence. Just an acknowledgement that some of those teenage testimonies might have been real, if poorly developed and necessarily shallow. An acceptance that others might have found faith where POV found only social activity. I found power in the story (more so since I sat down to write this essay-lette and managed to convince myself of its presence even as I began to argue its lack). I also think Jacob has a number of good points--many Mormon writers are unwilling to grant the institutions of the church *any* power to be agents of grace. And while I don't think Paul intended to say that those institutions must fail, by showing only examples of their failure with no acknowledgement of success, I think he portrays them as empty shells. I think this has happened in much of the better-written Mormon literature of our day; a sin of omission, so to speak. I would just like to see some of that formidable Mormon talent allow for the possibility of real, honest faith among the faceless, nameless "faithful" of the church without always portraying that faith as empty or misguided. Just a sentence that accepts the possibility. Random parting thoughts ====================== Were I the editors of Irreantum, I might have made this story the last one in the fiction section; I would have led with a less difficult story and closed with my powerhouse. I think Paul Rawlins wrote a supremely faithful story, but I also think it's possible that I'm wrong and he really meant it to be cynical. For me, the text supports both interpretations. I would love to see a story where the institutions of the church are at least not wrong. A story where real people struggle, and sometimes find wisdom amid the platitudes, and honesty among the general Mormon clergy and membership. There must needs be an opposite in all things--both the sweet and the bitter. I would like to see some good, well-earned sweet that happens on-stage. Which is my primary remaining comment about this story--all the bits with grace and understanding and epiphany happened off-stage. Isn't there some way to bring at least part of that on-stage? Please? Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 29 Nov 2000 10:32:05 -0700 [Moderator's compilation of two related posts by Jacob Proffitt.] On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:14:01 -0700, Scott Tarbet wrote: >Rather than looking for a depiction of how faithful Mormons >should/would/could act, isn't it much more telling and true to the Mormon >experience to depict us as the majority of us really are? Sure, we *should* >go directly to the Lord in prayer, search the scriptures, consult our >Priesthood leaders, etc. etc., but half the membership of the Church isn't >even active, half of those who attend regularly don't have regular FHE or do >their HT/VT, and only a small portion of that 25% that's left would probably >say they're adequate at taking their problems to the Lord in deep, >meaningful personal prayer. So we're down to maybe 12.5% of the membership >of the Church. That's a small sample for representing the majority of us as >we are: stragglers and strugglers. I won't bother disputing the 12.5% figure, though I do doubt it. Still, if you are going to write from an LDS perspective, I don't think it is asking too much to weight it towards those who go to church and actually believe and try to live the doctrine. Particularly if you are going to write a story that purports to represent the faithful LDS experience. Jacob Proffitt On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:33:22 -0800 (PST), Darlene Young wrote: >Here's my question, which I don't mean to apply >particularly to Rawlins' story: because a story does >not narrate the praying or the RS attendance, must we >assume the character didn't pray or go to church? How >much of the practice of being Mormon must we make >explicit? Using Rawlins' story just for an example, I >honestly didn't assume that since the praying scenes >were not included then the character must not have >been praying and reading scriptures. Apparently, some >people did. > >Is there some sort of loyalty we owe to our beliefs >that requires us to make these things explicit in our >stories, or are there times when we can assume that >the audience will recognize that God is a part of a >character's life, even when we don't show the praying >scenes? Or should we conclude that an absence of a >prayer scene means an absence of prayer in a >character's life? Whether it is important to show or not probably depends on the story. The problem with Rawlins' story (again, IMO) is that the situation calls so strongly for hitting the basics of the gospel that their lack is kind of telling. If your story hits near the roots of the gospel, then it is important to show those roots and not ignore them as if your characters were just anybody and not LDS at all. So, yes there are certainly times when we can assume the audience will recognize that God is a part of a character's life, but there are also times when we need to see it of wonder at its lack. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 29 Nov 2000 10:52:35 -0700 On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:09:15 -0700, Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: >I would love to see a story where the institutions of the church are>at least not wrong. A story where real people struggle, and sometimes>find wisdom amid the platitudes, and honesty among the general Mormon>clergy and membership. > >There must needs be an opposite in all things--both the sweet and the>bitter. I would like to see some good, well-earned sweet that happens>on-stage. > >Which is my primary remaining comment about this story--all the bits>with grace and understanding and epiphany happened off-stage. Isn't>there some way to bring at least part of thhat on-stage? > >Please? This is interesting because it reminds me of Kristen Randle's statements about God only being depicted by the angry disenchanted. I remember that when her thoughts were posted, many on the list were very quick to claim that of *course* we could depict interactions with God that were true and faithful. Well, can we really? Who has done so successfully? I'll go ahead and undermine my own implications by pointing out Scott Bronson's "Stones" as an argument that it *can* be done well and faithfully. But I'd still like to explore why it doesn't happen more often. Is it so hard to do? Or is it because it isn't very rewarding (I personally wonder if Scott will be able to find a venue for "Stones")? Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] O.S. Card and Cults: Have You Seen This Article? Date: 29 Nov 2000 10:34:24 -0700 Actually, Jan Shipps has written on this issue. In the field of religious studies, 'cult' and 'sect' have very specific meanings. A 'sect' is an offshoot from another religion. A 'cult' is a brand new religious tradition. When they grow up, a 'sect' becomes a denomination. And a 'cult' becomes a religion. (Obviously, her argument is far more specific and technical--I'm giving the barest of paraphrases.) Professor Shipps goes on to argue that Mormonism was, according to these definitions, once a cult, but it isn't anymore. Today, Mormonism is a religion; neither Catholic or Protestant, and therefore, arguably at least, not Christian. We were never a sect. She says that Mormonism dispenses with the creeds of Christianity sufficiently that we actually hardly qualify as Christian, though we are demonstrably Christ-centered. Semantic differences do have their value. Anyway, Scott is wrong in his definition of 'cult.' And we certainly were a cult at one time. Not anymore. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] MN Fishers of Men: Deseret Book Press Release Date: 29 Nov 2000 11:56:37 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > There was darkness in "Work & Glory," and dark characters. That alone is > an improvement over the past. I'm rather curious about what you mean by "darkness" and why you think it's sufficient to improve Lund's work. While some of my favorite books and characters are dark to the point of inky blackness, I don't see that as necessary or sufficient to good literature. It merely suits my tastes. The world isn't all light, but why should literature always be an accurate and complete reflection of the world? Can't one skillfully tell stories that stick to the light? I wouldn't care for a steady diet of such stories, but that doesn't mean they aren't included in the set of fine literature. Darkness doesn't always improve artistry; sometimes it simply obscures the lack of it. Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 29 Nov 2000 11:25:36 -0700 Scott, So sad to hear my worst suspicions confirmed by your viewing of "The Savior of the World." :-( Gonna finish my Christmas show someday, after finishing my current choral projects, and shop it to....whom? Baptists? B'way? :-) Steve P. S. Who wrote this show and why is it so anonymous and secretive? Is it the committee itself? I don't want to broadcast the info. I just want to know. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Kramer Subject: Re: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 29 Nov 2000 12:54:16 -0700 Scott Bronson's comments on _Savior of the World_ raise some very difficult questions. One is the hope we all seem to have that our work, and our sophisticated standards of aesthetic excellence, will be accepted by either the official church or by the culture, and that that will somehow imply acceptance by God. I think we can have fruitful discussions about acceptance by the culture and even by the official church (likie being quoted or praised in conference, etc.), but I think the deeper fear that we might be offending God is nearly and maybe completely impossible to talk about. I will give one example. Quite a few years ago now Franco Zeffirelli, a believing Catholic and passionate artist, made what I thought was a beautiful film about the life of the Savior. Many of my friends didn't like it because it seemed too Catholic, i.e., it wasn't true. I expect that many Catholics disliked it because it wasn't Catholic enough. Others didn't like it because they don't like Zeffirelli's whole approach to film. Etc. Etc. Etc. I still believe that Zeffirelli achieved something, though, that Mormon artists also hope to accomplish--he used his considerable skills as an artist to praise God, to bear testimony of the divinity of Jesus Christ. I admire the attempt and hope that our efforts to do the same may be pleasing to God, in all the ways we define "please." I believe much of what we do is, in this special sense, an acceptable offering. I also suspect that that can happen in official church productions, where non-artists have the final say in what actually appears on stage. Neal Kramer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 29 Nov 2000 11:30:59 -0700 Thanks to Scott for this thoughtful review. I know the list has discussed _Testaments of One Fold_ (or whatever it's called), but I've been such a sporadic contributor that I wanted to add my 2 cents worth, and am inspired by Scott's words. I was disappointed--and like Scott, I really wanted to like _Testaments_. (My father provided the Mayan, by the way, and it is authentic.) What I saw over and over were the miraculous healings by the Savior--lovely but rather sentimental. My overwhelming sense was that depicting the healings was a bit of a cheat--predictable awe and teary gratitude. The truth is, the greatest miracle is not giving sight to the blind or mobility to the lame; the greatest miracle is the healing of the heart. Those who have received the greatest miracle accept the lesser miracles (such as those portrayed in _Testaments_) as simply a function of their faith. I'm actually teaching a scripture tonight in Institute which condemns those who seek for signs--the obvious miracles. "Signs" follow those who believe. So why would the Church produce a costly movie which depicts sign after sign? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Valerie Holladay Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 29 Nov 2000 10:35:04 -0800 (PST) Alan Mitchell: > I would not describe Laake's voice as refreshing. > Try bedazzling. > Exhibitionist. > Alan Mitchell How about whiney? My impression was that she was blaming all her problems with men/relationships on the Church instead of accepting responsibility for them herself. A shame that her book was (is still?) used by ASU in a course exploring different contemporary religions from the female perspective. Valerie Holladay - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] O.S. Card and Cults: Have You Seen This Article? Date: 29 Nov 2000 12:08:05 -0700 Scott Card implies, but doesn't actually say, that even Christianity started off as a cult by the classic definition. Can't partisan politics sometimes be called a cult? Super-patriotism? We are surrounded by cult-like activities and philosophies. With regard to literature, if we elevate one genre above another, isn't that cult-like ("SF is the only true literature, not that romance crap")? We seem to place so much emphasis on our government leaders being charismatic that we mention those who aren't as if it's a deficiency. Does that make the U.S. a cult? There are aspects of cults all around us. I think it's human nature to grab onto some kind of cult, be it religious, politcal, or familial because the alternative -- having to decide anew everytime a decision comes up can be tiring. Cults, like anything else, have their good aspects and their bad aspects. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] RE: Irreantum Fiction Date: 28 Nov 2000 22:45:35 -0600 At 02:33 PM 11/27/00, you wrote: > Frankly, we are by no means swimming in fiction submissions and are > publishing at least half if not the majority of what we receive, and we > were particularly honored to have a nationally prominent author like Paul > Rawlins let us consider one of his stories. Gee, thanks. This makes my fiction rejection feel SO much worse! :-) (S'allright, I'll try again sooner or later when I get to it . . . just had to say it though!! To be fair I wasn't sure the story I sent quite "fit," which it didn't.) and in another post: <> Some other literary magazines I've seen do this, or have an author's "blurb" at the end where they have, say 25 words or so to tell about their included work. I like that. It's kind of a promotional plug, in a way, and helps me figure out which stories I want to read first, by which sound the most interesting. I also wanted to say, I received the latest issue of Irreantum this week, and it looks much, much improved from the last one I saw (the one I was printed in, about a year ago--first one, I think?). I like the larger size and two-column format. Much easier to read. Now, I haven't *read* it yet--but as far as looks, very good job. It looks nicely professional now. [Linda Adams] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum Fiction Date: 29 Nov 2000 13:59:04 -0700 On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:11:25 -0600, Jonathan Langford wrote: >Perhaps this is an overly pessimistic view. It may be that simply because >there are no other magazines publishing much Mormon fiction, there will be >many fans of different genres (e.g., Mormon-associated sf&f, or >Mormon-cultural realism) who don't have a great interest in other types of >fiction, but who subscribe to _Irreantum_ anyway because it's one of only a >few sources of what they like. Presumably, such readers would read the >fiction that interests them, but skip over the rest. But given the small >number of stories published in each issue, I think it's unlikely that any >reader of this sort will find more than 1-2 stories per issue that appeal >to his/her individual interests. That seems like a pretty slim basis for >picking up a magazine. So we're back to a readership that either has a >strong interest in the nonfiction pieces, or wants to read a broad spectrum >of fiction writing--in short, back to those with an interest in _Irreantum_ >as the voice/forum for an entire community of Mormon letters, as opposed to >seeing it as an outlet for the type of creative works they particularly >like. But there *are* other magazines that publish Mormon Fiction. Dialogue, Sunstone, BYU Studies to name those I remember off the top of my head. I suppose that a part of my complaint is that stories like Paul Rawlins' make up a large portion of the Dialogue and Sunstone offerings which is why I don't subscribe to those publications. There are plenty of outlets for that kind of fiction and virtually none for any other. My hope for Irreantum is that it can expand the market by providing an alternative to these other avenues who have lost my trust entirely. Perhaps I should make it clearer that I don't want all the stories to be ones I like or agree with. However, I *am* tired of the predominance of this type of story that takes many of its parameters from mainstream fiction and that end up not terribly Mormon in any but the most superficial sense. =46rankly, my biggest gripe with Irreantum is the decision to privilege that story. It indicates to me that Irreantum would, if it could, mirror those other magazines. If Irreantum is willing to put Rawlins over Peterson then it indicates that they would rather have Rawlins type submissions over Peterson type submissions. It hints that if the slush pile were larger, that stories like Rawlins' would be included and stories like Peterson's wont. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 29 Nov 2000 15:11:33 -0700 Margaret Young wrote: > > What I saw over and over were the miraculous healings by the > Savior--lovely but rather sentimental. My overwhelming sense was that > depicting the healings was a bit of a cheat--predictable awe and teary > gratitude. The truth is, the greatest miracle is not giving sight to the > blind or mobility to the lame; the greatest miracle is the healing of the > heart. Those who have received the greatest miracle accept the lesser > miracles (such as those portrayed in _Testaments_) as simply a function > of their faith. I'm actually teaching a scripture tonight in Institute which > condemns those who seek for signs--the obvious miracles. "Signs" follow > those who believe. So why would the Church produce a costly movie which > depicts sign after sign? > Funny all I can remember of the film is the struggles of the heart in the rebellious child. Well that (and the authentic Mayan, :-)) and a very powerful ending. It has been a few months though and I'm sure if I went back and took a clip board and ticked off each of the healings Margaret's analysis would be proven correct. Try reading the New Testament and counting the healings some time. While I entirely agree that the "real" part of the Savior's mission is to turn hearts, his multiple healings were always meant as shadows of the healing of the heart. In real life or in "real" movies, or in scriptural accounts even, you show the metaphysical by depicting its physical equivalent. Hence healings. Tom -- Tom Matkin www.matkin.com "The men who try to do something and fail are infinitely better than those who try to do nothing and succeed." - Lloyd Jones - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 29 Nov 2000 15:29:15 -0700 >A shame that her book was (is still?) used by ASU in a >course exploring different contemporary religions from >the female perspective. Why? Laake's female. Her POV is just that: her POV. And it's just as valid as anyone else's experience with the Church. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 29 Nov 2000 15:44:29 -0700 Steve says: > So sad to hear my worst suspicions confirmed by your viewing of "The > Savior of the World." > > P. S. > > Who wrote this show and why is it so anonymous and secretive? Is it > the committee itself? I don't want to broadcast the info. I just > want to know. No reason why it can't be broadcast. This is copied from the program: "Savior of the Worl: His Birth and Resurrection" was written under the direction of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by members of the Church, including David Warner, Cynthia Collier, Erik Orton, Dennis Packard, Sherry Wadham, Timothy Wadham, and David Zabriskie. These members and many others throughout the Church have generously contributed their time and talents in the collaorative, creative effort resulting in this production. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 29 Nov 2000 16:56:06 -0700 Particularly if you are going to write a > story that purports to represent the faithful LDS experience. > > Jacob Proffitt I appreciate your points about what you found missing in the story and it helped me understand your point of view. You also recognized many of the elements of the story I found valuable. However, I feel that the story makes a particular point. The story ends with the father deciding to tell his daughter that the death of the young man was nobody's fault and that it was a terrible accident. Then he wants to express how very sorry he is. The father comes to feel the same pain that the daughter and her friends feel. The father grows during the course of the story, from a position of feeling removed from the impact to feeling the intense experience of loss that those closest to the boy feel. This is a tremendously affirming message. The father moves closer to his daughter, he learns to understand her feelings, and he tries to explain that some deaths are purely accidents and that it is okay to think of them that way. I think that the message of the story is that faith can encompass such incidents. Accidental death does not need to destroy our faith. What the story leaves out is not a fair criteria by which to judge the story, IMO. Each work of art leaves out an infinite number of things. But we judge it by what it includes. (Even as I say that I remember that Hemingway said that he leaves "everything" out of a story. So sometimes leaving something out might be a strategy. But I suspect that if we want to tell a different story we are feel to do so. Listening to the story that IS told is like welcoming a stranger at the door--to borrow Bruce Jorgensen's metaphor.) I also think that few, if any, stories have a purpose statement at the beginning of the text: "this represents the faithful LDS experience." However, this story does happen to do just that because it shows faithful LDS members who are trying to come to grips with a difficult experience. > > the situation calls so > strongly for hitting the basics of the gospel that their lack is kind of > telling. If your story hits near the roots of the gospel, then it is > important to show those roots and not ignore them as if your > characters were > just anybody and not LDS at all. This story, I believe, does hit the basics of the gospel: love for another human being, even to the point of vicariously coming to experience that other person's suffering. I would label that a Christlike attribute. The story also is about telling the truth. Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Irreantum Fiction Date: 29 Nov 2000 17:20:23 -0700 f Jacob Proffitt I > suppose that a part of my complaint is that stories like Paul > Rawlins' make > up a large portion of the Dialogue and Sunstone offerings which is why I > don't subscribe to those publications. There are plenty of > outlets for that > kind of fiction and virtually none for any other. My hope for > Irreantum is > that it can expand the market by providing an alternative to these other > avenues who have lost my trust entirely. > Perhaps I should make it clearer that I don't want all the stories to be > ones I like or agree with. However, I *am* tired of the predominance of > this type of story that takes many of its parameters from > mainstream fiction > and that end up not terribly Mormon in any but the most superficial sense. > Frankly, my biggest gripe with Irreantum is the decision to privilege that > story. It indicates to me that Irreantum would, if it could, mirror those > other magazines. If Irreantum is willing to put Rawlins over > Peterson then > it indicates that they would rather have Rawlins type submissions over > Peterson type submissions. It hints that if the slush pile were larger, > that stories like Rawlins' would be included and stories like Peterson's > wont. > > Jacob Proffitt Your criteria in distinguishing between these two "types" of stories is not clear to me. There are elements in Peterson's story that might disturb some LDS readers--the story includes profanity and a discussion of the wife's sexual immorality. It also has a husband who is disaffected from the church and who claims to not believe any more. The deaths of his family members have brought him to that state of being. He is perhaps even more challenged by the deaths he encounters than is the protagonist in Rawlins' story. He chooses a wife that represents his moving away from the church. Is this the behavior of a faithful member? Even he admits near the end of the story, "I am not worthy." But I'm guessing that the reason you find this a "faithful" story is because the wife accidentally discovers his Mormoness and begins to experience conversion. And she makes the assumption that the husband still believes at some level, even though he won't admit it. I just don't think dividing fiction into "faithful" and "unfaithful" categories is an easy task. I also think it would be rather odd if stories were ranked on that basis for order of publication. An apparently "faithless" story may offer up truth. But we can't know that unless we are willing to examine it carefully and think about it searchingly. That kind of thinking is good practice for any kind of moral decision-making. Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] O.S. Card and Cults: Have You Seen This Article? Date: 29 Nov 2000 18:48:55 -0600 What I find interesting about this--and what I think no one has commented on so far--is that this discussion occurred in the first place: that is, that Scott Card apparently had a conversation with a reader of one of Scott's books, that wound up going to the topic of Scott's religious beliefs. Most of what Scott writes outside the Mormon venue is science fiction and fantasy. Most of his work is not explicitly "about" Mormonism at all, though Scott also never attempts to hide his religious views in interviews and the like, indeed goes out of his way at times to share them. My point: We talk a lot in Mormon literary circles about the impact of the literary work we do, and the spiritual message it sends. But there's a simpler level at which Mormon artists, simply by being believing Mormons and good artists, may have many opportunities to talk about what they believe, even if it doesn't appear in any obvious or recognizable form in the work they (we) create. Which is, in its own way, a heartening thought. I think. Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 29 Nov 2000 18:47:51 -0700 At the time of auditions and call-backs the names of the committee weren't being released. (For that matter at that point the show didn't even have a name.) We were told that the committee members were selected from those who had responded to PVP's request for submittals of productions for the new theatre facility, and had been released from other Church responsibilities and given this show as their primary calling, called to Salt Lake to work together, and were guided directly by the Brethren. That that guidance should be ongoing through the entire preparation of the show was completely and specifically expected. As to the whys and wherefores of keeping the names confidential, I would speculate (and that's all it is) that the Church is very well aware that any playwright to whom this plum fell would be an instant celebrity in Mormondom and their career in priestcraft (;-d) would be secure. With confidentiality it is what the Brethren want it to be: a calling and a labor of love. Folks, this is a huge experiment fraught with risks that the Brethren are undertaking, and certain of them are without a doubt viewing it with a jaundiced eye. "Art" isn't correlatable, and what they are doing comes perilously close to art. But it's most definitely not art -- it's missionary work and it's perfecting the Saints. We have to remember that if the experiment is going to work, giving faithful LDS artists opportunities for Church service qua live-theatre-but-not-quite-art and exposing many thousands of non-theatre-goers to the live experience, broadening still other opportunites, we have got to give it a chance. If we as an arts community within the larger LDS community rip it to shreds, this new opportunity will become even more circumscribed and may disappear altogether. -- Scott Tarbet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 29 Nov 2000 19:04:15 -0700 I maintain it is possible to be a faithful Mormon and therefore worthy of depiction and still be a struggling straggler. AAMOF I think the majority of us(the 87.5% figure was pulled out of thin air for purposes of the discussion, obviously) fit better in that category than in the Super Mormon category, and that the truest depiction for the majority therefore is a depiction of struggle, not of virtual perfection. -- Scott Tarbet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 29 Nov 2000 22:01:26 -0700 >Alan Mitchell wrote: >> >> In other words, why write a book about a Presidential Impeachment trial >> after a similar one had so much publicity a couple of years ago? What can >> we add? The Shaken Faith story has been written! At least for a decade or >> two. > Rob wrote: >If you kept strictly to this approach you could eliminate nearly all >literature and art as being derivative. Some people like to claim there >are no new stories left. I wouldn't go that far, but most literature >commonly considered "great" recycles the same themes because these are >the themes that are most important to human beings. And the same plot >lines get recast all the time. The artistry is in putting them in a new >light. I meant I am not interested in this theme for either the topic or the marketability. >To blame the church as Laake apparently did is too simple. The >interaction is much more complex and subtle than that. In that regard, >I think Levi's fiction is more insightful on this issue than Laake's >biography. My point exactly. But Levi didn't reach the bestseller list like Laake. Truth may be stranger than fiction, but often it contains more grudges. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Terry Tempest Williams reading at Read Leaf Tonight Date: 30 Nov 2000 14:20:13 -0600 This is one of those timely things Jonathan warns us may not get posted in time. I just heard on the radio that Terry Tempest Williams is reading at Read Leaf in Springville 7 p.m. tonight. The Read Leaf is at 164 S. Main Street. For all you poor souls out in the hinterland who never get to attend these events (and I'll be at work tonight, out in the spiritual hinterland) Springville, which recently adopted the spring ordinance requiring all first time visitors to the city to jump up and down on a pogo stick shouting, "We have met the enemy and he is us," is the next town south of Provo, which is midway through the state that's kind of southwest of Idaho). Take the first or 2nd Springville exit off I-15. They both come out on Main Street. For more information call The Read Leaf at (801) 489-1390, or e-mail info@readleaf.com. Harlow S. Clark (one of the Clarx Brothers) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Meredith Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 29 Nov 2000 18:12:56 -0800 (PST) I am sincerely overwhelmed at the number of us who've read this book! Really, that particular act isn't something I would necessarily admit to in most of the LDS circles in which I circulate. I read it a couple of years ago upon the insistence of my would-have- been, Catholic Mother-in-law. I married someone other than her son and she always worried about me and the Mormon guy I ended up with. After reading Laake's book she was frantic and I agreed to read it, if for no other reason than to have a clearer picture of the terror it incited in my old friend. Although, at the time, I found the writing immature and the perspective of the writer confused and misinformed, I must admit that some of the images of her descriptions still remain in my mind. I read several books a year and they sort of come and go through my consciousness, but there is something about the images Laake's word conjured that has had staying power. [Kathleen Meredith] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum Fiction Date: 29 Nov 2000 22:52:44 -0600 Within the logic of Jacob's assumptions about the placement of the Rawlins story, he's right, but I'm not so sure that those assumptions can really be made. Actually, they can be made, but they might not reflect the reality of the situation. Often times the assumption is made that there was some kind of conscious thought taken, when in fact there isn't one. The opposite is also true. Jacob wrote: > If Irreantum is willing to put Rawlins over Peterson then it indicates that > they would rather have Rawlins type submissions over Peterson type > submissions. So you think that the Peterson story was a kind of consolation (kiss your sister) prize? Well, they did take the story. I judged an LDS fiction contest a year or so ago (Margaret what was it for, I've forgotten?). There was a lot of really horrible stuff. The problem in LDS publishing has to do with what I call the Scrooge/Crachit effect, which, in a nutshell, is this. It is harder to get an audience to believe in Crachit than Scrooge, because good is harder to represent than evil. Or put another way it is easier not to caricature evil. But back to placement . . . As an editor, I can vouch for the fact that sometimes we hide a moderately bad story or poem, becuse sometimes they make it through the process. But sometimes we just let little details take control. For example, in the latest issue of Cimarron Review, we put a poem titled, "Big Whoop" at the end because, you know, "big whoop." And then we discovered that we had a whole bunch of hospital stuff, so we put all that together. But you can please all the people all the time, so someone is bound to find fault with our organization. If they don't like it, I say don't read. But quite frankly, some of what I like best is not what the other editor likes best is not what some of our readers like best and so on. And as far as I know, Dialogue, Sunstone, and Irreantum are the only publications doing fiction right now. BYU Studies doesn't unless they just started again in the last year. It's been since 1994 for them. Three venues is rather miserable, I think, though they are all good venues. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 30 Nov 2000 01:08:29 -0700 Scott Tarbet wrote: > Rather than looking for a depiction of how faithful Mormons > should/would/could act, isn't it much more telling and true to the Mormon > experience to depict us as the majority of us really are? No, it's more telling and true for the author to create whatever characters he wants to create, then make them feel realistic, and be true to the personality of those characters throughout the story. Characters "should" not be anything--faithful members who do much of what's expected of them, mediocre members who do some but fail at a lot, inactive members who do nothing, bitter former members who attack the church. Any of these characters "should" be written about, depending on what the author wants to do. To say our literature should depict only a certain type of Mormon, even one in the majority, is merely a form of political correctness. I loathe political correctness. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] O.S. Card and Cults: Have You Seen This Article? Date: 30 Nov 2000 01:24:24 -0700 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > Semantic differences do have their value. Anyway, Scott is wrong in his definition of 'cult.' And we certainly were a cult at one time. Not anymore. It's not that he was wrong, but that he was using the colloquial definition used by certain Christian denominations to show the contradiction of their own argument. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Fishers of Men: Deseret Book Press Release Date: 30 Nov 2000 01:34:03 -0700 James Picht wrote: > I'm rather curious about what you mean by "darkness" and why you think it's > sufficient to improve Lund's work. > The world isn't all light, but why should literature always be an accurate and > complete reflection of the world? Can't one skillfully tell stories that > stick to the light? I wouldn't care for a steady diet of such stories, but > that doesn't mean they aren't included in the set of fine literature. But for the longest time, the only diet mainstream LDS literature served up was all-light stories. I think darkness in mainstream LDS literature is an improvement because LDS literature needs that balance, not because I think all literature should be dark. I just remember thinking how nice it was that some of the characters in the first book of W&G actually did some dark things, or foolish things that caused significant darkness, and that the towns they lived in had dark neighborhoods in them. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================= Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================= - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 30 Nov 2000 08:50:39 -0700 >If we as an arts >community within the larger LDS community rip it to shreds, this new >opportunity will become even more circumscribed and may disappear >altogether. Suppose you were a plumber and the Church asks you to come fix the plumbing in a temple. Only you don't get to decide when the job is really done. A committee who knows nothing about plumbing comes in looks over your shoulder. At each point, you are given notes: "Don't use that wrench. Use this one." You're an experienced plumber and you know that the wrench they want you to use is too small and you will end up with an inferior product." I can't imagine any plumber worth his toolbox would sit still for such abuse. I don't think artists should either. I don't mind my writing being criticized. As a technical writer for computer companies, I've learned that's part of the game. But in that profession I'm treated as a professional. I get to make a case for my position. And I'm often deferred to because after all, I'm the professional. What I mind and find rephrensible, to be totally clear, is the idea that the Church wants professional and talented people to write and produce inspiring work for them but then hobbles them at every turn. The show Scott describe could have been written by ANYONE with a copy of the scriptures. It doesn't sound like it too any special artistic insight to create "The Savior of the World." Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 30 Nov 2000 09:53:45 -0700 Gae Lyn Henderson wrote: >. > > This story, I believe, does hit the basics of the gospel: love for another > human being, even to the point of vicariously coming to experience that > other person's suffering. I would label that a Christlike attribute. The > story also is about telling the truth. > Ain't art funny? Pity the poor artist who thinks he will appeal to everyone. Pity the poor editor who wants to put together a magazine full of relevant and meaningful fiction. This discussion finally chased me back to Irreantum to read the story. To make my own judgment. It took a couple of days to find my copy, then another few days to find a few free minutes, but last night I finally got to it. Would I find what Gae Lyn describes or would I discover the faithless problem that Jacob encountered? I was anxious to know. I was reading along and only had a couple of serious interruptions. One was my wife wondering if I could go pick up my son from his piano lesson. The other was a little later when the home teachers arrived. Might have expected that, given the time of the month. But finally I finished the task. Here's my reaction. The story is wordy. It meanders around in the mind of the father, down shifting briskly from a beginning charged with bright and difficult poetic-like images to pedestrian prose and staying there. It doesn't ever engage me. I do note, in my own mind, that I have experienced things something like this. I have suffered the death of one of my own children, for instance. I have seen times when my children grieved. I have parented teenagers and am familiar with the separation difficulties that teens display and that sometimes erupt into rebellious behaviours. I hope to find something in this story that relates, hightens, highlights, exposes, or refreshes my own experience as a parent, a father, or even a griever. But apart from the barest of experiential similarities that I've described I can't find my experience in the one described. I am distanced from it. Uncomfortably distanced. It doesn't speak to me. It takes me on a vacuous journey in a tight circle. I weary of being invited into this man's mind. By the time the story is over I put down Irreantum. I am weary of it. I don't read any more from it. I can't. I am Jacob. Tom -- Tom Matkin www.matkin.com "The men who try to do something and fail are infinitely better than those who try to do nothing and succeed." - Lloyd Jones - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 30 Nov 2000 10:35:11 -0700 Scott Tarbet wrote: >Folks, this is a huge experiment fraught with risks that the >Brethren are undertaking, and certain of them are without a >doubt viewing it with a jaundiced eye. "Art" isn't correlatable, >and what they are doing comes perilously close to art. I'm sure that this is how this undertaking is perceived by some, but I don't get it. I don't understand how it's 'fraught with risks' at all. The show sold every seat for every performance the day tickets went on sale. Anything done in the Conference Center is going to have the official Church seal of approval, and that means it's automatically going to be essentially immune from criticism, except for the cranky gripes of a few artist types, and who cares about them? The Church could use that venue to do a play that strongly attacks racism. They could use that venue to do a play that deals strongly with issues like sexual abuse or spouse abuse. They could do something hard hitting on any number of issues and not an eyebrow would be raised by the general Church population. Instead, every seat would be sold for every performance, and people would go away sobered and, I suspect, edified. Just like people come away from General Conference sobered and edified, after hearing talks strongly denouncing various social ills. For that matter, the Church could also have produced a big showstopping song and dance revue, contentless but entertaining. Folks would have enjoyed that too, and again whatever criticism the Church received would have been, at worst, muted. Instead they chose to make Jesus boring. I don't get it. I don't get how that's supposed to strengthen testimonies. >But it's most definitely not art -- it's >missionary work and it's perfecting the Saints. We have to >remember that if the experiment is going to work, giving faithful >LDS artists opportunities for Church service qua live-theatre-but->not-quite-art and exposing many thousands of non-theatre-goers >to the live experience, broadening still other opportunites, we >have got to give it a chance. Hey, most of the guys on that committee are friends of mine. If a talented and dedicated young guy like Erik Orton gets an opportunity like this, I'm supportive. Dave Warner is a good friend of mine; I chair his doctoral committee. Nothing wrong with any of them getting to do this. But when the product turns out as bad as this one did, then the only thing that's been accomplished as far as the LDS artistic community is concerned, is to confirm what we already know; working for the Church is, for an artist, the pits. I haven't the temperment to work on this committee. I know that. For those who do have the desire and the interest and whose talent is such that they can do this kind of drama-less drama, it's still frustrating. I predict that the turnover in that little committee will be very very high. Point is, this ISN'T an experiment. This isn't groundbreaking, or risk taking, or any of those things. This isn't the sort of thing where we go: "let's be supportive, this is something new and different in the Church, let's support our fellow artists, let's be patient." And so on. This isn't new at all. It's the same old same old, just in a different building. What do you mean, Scott, by 'let's give it a chance?' I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to ignore it. I might go see the show, to support my friends. And I'll grouse about it to my wife in the car all the way home. And if people in my ward want to talk about it, or enthuse about it, I'll do as I always do; be politely non-committal, and change the subject as soon as I possibly can. Just as I'll continue to politely decline opportunities to join that particular committee. I'll just say this once, in this forum where I'm among friends. The Conference Center Theatre is not important, it's not valuable, it's not a venue where anything of lasting value will ever be produced. The fulfilling of the vision of a Mormon Shakespeare, which vision has fired my imagination my entire professional life, remains the focus of all my artistic efforts. The Conference Center Theatre is not a venue where the Mormon Shakespeare, when s/he arrives, will produce her/his work. The Conference Center Theatre will have some small value, as a performance venue for a certain kind of reverential theatre, which undoubtedly will strengthen the testimonies of those whose artistic tastes are compatible with that specific Church aesthetic. For that small, limited audience, it's fine. It's probably doing some good. Nothing wrong with that. >If we as an arts >community within the larger LDS community rip it to shreds, this >new >opportunity will become even more circumscribed and may >disappear altogether. Well, I agree we shouldn't rip it to shreds. We shouldn't attack the work of fellow artists and we shouldn't question the testimonies of our brothers and sisters. This opportunity is already about as circumscribed as it's possible to be, so I don't see any danger of it become more circumscribed. And if this opportunity did go away altogether, I don't see how we've lost much. I think Scott Bronson's response to the thing hit exactly the right tone. It's too bad Savior of the World couldn't actually be good. It's too bad that it has become exactly what we all feared, institutional art at its least interesting. Some people will come away from that show deeply moved and spiritually fed. We have no business questioning or doubting their positive experiences with the piece. As for me and my house, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter. John Travolta, a devout Scientologist, made a recent film, Battlefield Earth, that expresses his most deeply felt religious convictions. It's a devotional work, essentially. I heard it was a ludicrously dreadful film, and did not see it, and probably never will. Undoubtedly there was an audience of devoted Scientologists who found it deeply moving and faith promoting. I'm not part of that audience, and so for me, that film isn't part of my life, but I suspect that Scientology, like all religions, includes in its theology moral values with which I agree. So I'm not completely hostile to the attempt; just uninterested. Which expresses essentially how I feel about this show in the Conference Center Theatre. Savior of the World is Battlefield Earth for Mormons. And now I'd better strap my helmet on, I think. Incoming. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "veda hale" Subject: [AML] Maureen Whipple and "Faith of Our Fathers" Date: 30 Nov 2000 11:40:17 -0700 This discussion has lured me out of lurk-dom. It was something like this a few years ago that sent me into limbo. I was (and am) writing Maurine Whipple's biography. When I ran into such passionate negative responses to THE GIANT JOSHUA and other unfortunate factors seemed to pile up, I thought I possibly was on a fool's mission. I finished the work the best I could and turned my life another direction. Time has swept new insights my way. Lavina is finally free to help me. I knew I had to wait for her. The editing is progressing now.So it was that JOSHUA brought forth the same response from Jacob Proffitt and others as we are hearing now with "Faith of our Fathers". I have been re-reading JOSHUA with these responses in mind. I think the reason JOSHUA has dominated my life since reading it some 35 years ago is that the ending first took all reason for believing in a fair reward for faithfulness--or in Clory's case at least a super-human try at faithfulness--it took the facing of unfair happenstances of life over the edge, over the threshold, and what was there? A GREAT SMILE. And for me, that was enough. That led my faith to the edge, too. And I deal with all the unfairness, the senseless deaths, the broken hearts by stepping off into the void of unknowing, surrendering to the choice of believing--the choice to accept that there is beyond it all an incomprehensible something that could just as well be worded around with a description such as THE GREAT SMILE. Has it taken something from my own life experience, my own tiny "pearl of Great Price", to make it so I could surrender this way? Is this what Jacob is longing for stories about Mormons to include? I suspect he has touched, even if ever so tentatively, the "of what I refer". The Great Smile, if you please. He hurt that the father in the story couldn't. I hurt that he couldn't see the value of the fact that Clory did at the end of JOSHUA. We are so locked in our own box of separateness, and we want so desperately for others "to see". ["You see" is a often repeated term that Maurine used in the many long, pitiful letters she wrote to so many people.] Yes, JOSHUA is troubling. No one reads it without passionate response. I'm glad Jacob has started this kind of discussion. I hope it will open another discussion of JOSHUA.Veda Hale - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 30 Nov 2000 11:29:45 -0700 on 11/29/00 6:47 PM, Scott Tarbet at starbet@timp.net wrote: >We were told that the committee members were selected from those who >had responded to PVP's request for submittals of productions for the new >theatre facility, > As to the whys and wherefores of keeping the names confidential, I would > speculate (and that's all it is) that the Church is very well aware that any > playwright to whom this plum fell would be an instant celebrity in Mormondom > and their career in priestcraft (;-d) would be secure. With confidentiality > it is what the Brethren want it to be: a calling and a labor of love. > Scott, I hope you don't mind my responding again to this idea--I want to make it clear that I'm not responding from a "sour grapes" point of view. I was among those musicians and playwrights who responded to that call. My Christmas show proposal was one which the previous administration of PVP was excited about--in fact I was paid (as were others) to do a treatment and demo several songs from the proposed production. When the change in administration came, the new administration was NOT excited about my idea--and they had every right not to be. I was frankly surprised that it had even been considered, since it was definitely not in the mainstream "pageant" or "correlatable" category. It's an idea I dearly love and which gives me considerable delight to contemplate. I'll write it within the next two years and hope to find audiences both in and out of the church who might enjoy it. I am thrilled that the church is putting on a production at all and only wish the best to those writing it. It's just hard to wish anonymous people well, which is why I ask. Evidentally some names have been printed in the program--this makes me happy since I know who to be happy for. > Folks, this is a huge experiment fraught with risks that the Brethren are > undertaking, and certain of them are without a doubt viewing it with a > jaundiced eye. "Art" isn't correlatable, and what they are doing comes > perilously close to art. But it's most definitely not art -- it's > missionary work and it's perfecting the Saints. We have to remember that if > the experiment is going to work, giving faithful LDS artists opportunities > for Church service qua live-theatre-but-not-quite-art and exposing many > thousands of non-theatre-goers to the live experience, broadening still > other opportunites, we have got to give it a chance. If we as an arts > community within the larger LDS community rip it to shreds, this new > opportunity will become even more circumscribed and may disappear > altogether. I haven't seen the show yet (it was sold out already when I tried to get tickets), so I cannot comment on it specifically. But Scott, are you really saying that if a show--any show--is bad, critics shouldn't say so, just because those involved meant well? I don't think that attitude improves and furthers LDS art or even missionary work, nor does it do much to perfect the saints. Just some thoughts. :-) Steve P. S. I am glad the church has sponsored a new work--even issued callings, evidentally, to get it written. With repeated calls from everyone from Orson Pratt, to President Packer to President Kimball, to Elder Ballard, and a new state-of-the-art theater; wouldn't it be a crime if it were mostly filled with stake productions of "Annie," "My Fair Lady," etc, which could just as well be done in any stake center cultural hall? -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum Fiction Date: 30 Nov 2000 11:32:00 -0700 On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:20:23 -0700, Gae Lyn Henderson wrote: >Your criteria in distinguishing between these two "types" of stories is not >clear to me. There are elements in Peterson's story that might disturb some >LDS readers--the story includes profanity and a discussion of the wife's >sexual immorality. It also has a husband who is disaffected from the church >and who claims to not believe any more. The deaths of his family members >have brought him to that state of being. He is perhaps even more challenged >by the deaths he encounters than is the protagonist in Rawlins' story. He >chooses a wife that represents his moving away from the church. Is this the >behavior of a faithful member? Even he admits near the end of the story, "I >am not worthy." No it is not the behavior of a faithful member. So what? I have never claimed that I want stories that are only about faithful members. Frankly, by the end, we realize that he isn't even a very nice guy--or at least that he hasn't been. And a side note--he never claims he doesn't believe anymore. He just claims that it became too much to bear. A feeling anyone in the church can relate to on one level or another, whether they let that feeling drive them inactive or not. And yes, he *is* more challenged by the deaths in his family than the nameless narrator of Rawlins' story. And he let it drive him all the way out of the church. But it is a truer story because at least it deals with the gospel at all. And at least it doesn't have a supposedly faithful father who apparently doesn't have enough faith to actually *do* anything with the gospel. >But I'm guessing that the reason you find this a "faithful" story is because >the wife accidentally discovers his Mormoness and begins to experience >conversion. You are implying that I require swinging-door literature to be satisfied. That somebody has to be converted because they are good or fall away because they are bad for it to ring true. That is not the case. I liked Peterson's story because the core assumption is that the Gospel is true and that it works in the lives of real people. Kate went looking and she found answers. Is that so hard to believe? Are we not allowed to have people actually find what they are looking for? > And she makes the assumption that the husband still believes at >some level, even though he won't admit it. But he *does* admit it, just not in words. That's part of the power of this story and of Peterson's art. Aaron is a jerk. And he has certainly left the church and is, as he claims, unworthy. But he still believes as shown in his wearing garments and in adhering to standards that are no longer a part of his church affiliation. To me, Kate isn't making any assumptions, she is gaining insights. Insights perfectly justified in the context of the story and valuable to the character I care about. >I just don't think dividing fiction into "faithful" and "unfaithful" >categories is an easy task. I also think it would be rather odd if stories >were ranked on that basis for order of publication. An apparently >"faithless" story may offer up truth. But we can't know that unless we are >willing to examine it carefully and think about it searchingly. That kind >of thinking is good practice for any kind of moral decision-making. I agree that dividing fiction into faithful and unfaithful is difficult, but *I* have gotten to the point where *I* have to begin making that distinction. And I am at the point where I need to make that distinction before I read the story. I am *so* tired of the faithless depictions of LDS faithful and resolutionless stories. I hate "Faith of the Fathers" because there is *no* faith in it. The father never once displays faith or gets help from his faith or even hindered by his faith. The faith just is not present at all. And his supposed insight at the end is no more true or heartening than "Jeremy was called home" is. It's as much a cliche as any of the other answers given to Elizabeth already, it's just the opposite cliche. I don't know if stories can or should be ranked/placed based on their faithfulness, but I think that stories *can* and should be ranked best to worst and I think that Peterson's story was better than Rawlins' on any scale I can think of. It was better written, it was a more engaging story, the characters were more interesting, and the insight was truer. Add on that Rawlins' story is the same kind of story you already find in at least two other LDS publications and I think that I would be very firm in giving "The House" precedence over "Faith of the Fathers". That it wasn't given that precedence leads me to believe that quality of story was not what made the placement decision--or at least that my idea of quality varies significantly from the editors' idea of quality. Which again leads to my distrust of the editorial policies for Fiction in Irreantum, the point of my thread. It leads me to suspect that if (when) the slush pile at Irreantum grows large enough, and they are staring at plenty of "Faith of the Fathers" that those are the stories that will be presented at the expense of better stories like "The House". That said, I would like to take this opportunity to reflect on what Jonathan said earlier. Fiction is a very small portion of the offerings of Irreantum. I will by no means unsubscribe from the publication even if I do get to the point where I wont read any of their fiction. It is a very worthwhile publication and one I am proud to have delivered to my home every quarter. I am extremely grateful for the hard work put forth by the editors even if I don't agree with their decisions all the time. Frankly, I have yet to find *anyone* I agree with all the time. Which is kind of a relief if you think about it... Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kellene Adams Subject: Re: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Date: 30 Nov 2000 11:38:23 +0000 I'm fairly new to the list (about a month or so), and have remained quiet but interested (and extremely intimidated!) as I've become familiar with the the list. However, as I've read postings one thought has come to my mind fairly often. It came once again as I've read the thoughts on _Savior of the World_ and I wanted to interject it here. We as writers/artists are, generally speaking, a fairly opinionated and confident group. Which is good; we have to be in order to put our personal creations in the public domain for scrutiny and criticism. This drama, as well as much of the material out there produced by LDS artists, stimulates emotion and feelings in a great many people. People cry, ponder, pray, even change their lives, as a result of Jack Weyland books (I know, because I know some of those people) and the Legacy films and even heavily correlated material. While we might not consider it great art (and it's good that we don't, because we need to stretch and push the envelope and offer people deeper and richer stuff), I think it's important that we don't diminish or demean those people (who actually may represent the majority of LDS audiences) who are moved and touched and changed by what we might call milquetoast. Now having said that, I feel like the list is one place where LDS writers and creators ought to be able to say what they think without having to carefully weigh words. I just wanted to share this one thought that has come to me repeatedly as I've read the list. . . Kellene Ricks Adams [MOD: I'm splitting off a brief bio as a separate post for the sake of consistency in thread titles.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kellene Adams Subject: [AML] Introductions: Kellene Adams Date: 30 Nov 2000 11:38:23 +0000 A brief bio: Graduated from BYU in 1988, worked two years at the Deseret News, seven years at the Ensign (so I'm very familiar with heavily correlated material), three years as communications writer for a nutritional/network marketing company, and freelance as editor/writer for a national scrapbooking magazine. Served a mission to Hong Kong, have two young children, and thank you for your patience as I strive to become as educated and informed as the rest of you. Kellene Ricks Adams - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Stringer Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Date: 30 Nov 2000 11:55:56 -0700 > >A shame that her book was (is still?) used by ASU in a > >course exploring different contemporary religions from > >the female perspective. > > Why? Laake's female. Her POV is just that: her POV. And it's just as > valid as anyone else's experience with the Church. > > Thom Duncan I agree with your point Thom, up to the point where it is used as a general overall female experience with the Church. As long as it is used as her POV only then I am fine with it, but if it is used to generalize how women are treated by the Church, then it loses validity. Laake does not speak for me and sometimes I fear that POV's such as hers are used a such. Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 30 Nov 2000 10:27:10 -0700 On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:04:15 -0700, Scott Tarbet wrote: >I maintain it is possible to be a faithful Mormon and therefore worthy of >depiction and still be a struggling straggler. AAMOF I think the majority >of us(the 87.5% figure was pulled out of thin air for purposes of the >discussion, obviously) fit better in that category than in the Super Mormon >category, and that the truest depiction for the majority therefore is a >depiction of struggle, not of virtual perfection. I have never claimed that our literature should consist of or depict only the Super Mormon or virtual perfection. This is not my argument. All I am asking for is that the Gospel, God, or the Spirit have *some* role in a story that claims to be representative of the LDS experience. We all struggle, but we had better be striving for the influence of the Gospel, God, or the Spirit or what is the point? And a story that purports to be about faith and the church and yet neglects any movement by the Gospel, God, or the Spirit is not going to reach me or ring true. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm