From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Welcome Back Date: 02 Jan 2001 11:27:59 -0600 Welcome AML-List Members, I hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and not too inauspicious new year/century/millenium. (Yes, I'm one of those purists who argues that the new century etc. begins with 2001, thank you very much...) So we're back online again. I'd share with you a number of dazzling resolutions for AML-List, but I'm not sure I have any that are concrete enough to float at this point. Suffice it to say that I hope my work schedule will permit me to do a little more with helping to get stimulating discussions going on the List. Thanks as well to all those who attended the dinner on Dec. 18, and particularly to Chris Bigelow who organized it, although a sick child prevented him from making a late night of it. I enjoyed the conversation; I wish I had done a better job of mingling with more people. And thanks to all of you who weren't able to attend, but who make AML-List a more enjoyable and interesting place. I look forward to another year of good conversation with all of you, and wish you all the best in your various literary and nonliterary endeavors. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] What Is Art? Date: 15 Dec 2001 20:05:54 -0600 At 11:51 15-12-00 -0700, you wrote: >Rob Pannoni: >--- >I guess it must have been art. It sure as heck wasn't good for anything >else. >--- > >Ah! That's one of the best definitions yet. > >--- >Jim Cobabe By that definition, I have used a lot of art masquerading as software. -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] Laurel MOURITSEN, _The Passageway_ (Review) Date: 16 Dec 2001 07:24:29 GMT Review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Laurel Mouritsen, "The Passageway" 1994, Covenant Communications Paperback, 242 pages, $9.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle I have decided that Latter-day Saints are intrigued by the concept of=20= time travel. This is the third or fourth book I've read in the past few= =20 years on this same theme =96 going back in time, generally to the era of= =20 the early Saints, experiencing the trials and tribulations of the=20 pioneers. "The Passageway," however, adds a new twist. (And in this review, I wil= l=20 be disclosing much of the storyline, so if you intend to read it, I'd=20= suggest skipping the rest.) The book opens by introducing Katherine=20= ("Kallie") Garrett, working as researcher for an academic researching th= e=20 Utah War. Garrett, a history graduate of BYU, is a lackluster Mormon. = =20 She has little interest in her church or in its history. When she=20 discovers that her boss is preparing an anti-Mormon tract, this bothers = her a little, but not enough to make a fuss. During her lunch break one day, she takes a stroll through the graveyard= =20 where Brigham Young is buried and falls asleep. When she wakes up, she = finds herself in the same graveyard, but more than 100 years ago, on the= =20 very day Brigham Young was buried! Her clothing has changed, everything= =20 has changed. And here's the twist =96 even her last name has changed. = =20 She's now Katherine Walker. And there is a Walker family attending the = funeral, and they have a daughter named Katherine, who is a dead ringer = for Katherine Garrett. No one suspects she isn't the real Katherine=20= Walker, and she finds herself sucked into the life of the family, unable= =20 to convince anyone that she really hasn't even been born yet! For the next few weeks, Katherine must adjust to a completely new=20 lifestyle. The transition from typing notes on a computer to churning=20= butter is not an easy one, as you may guess. The more she protests that= =20 she's not their daughter, the more they suspect she's just gone round th= e=20 bend. But Katherine's experience in 1870's Salt Lake City (with a few weeks in= =20 old Provo thrown in) change her perspective entirely. While she entered= =20 this period as a lukewarm Mormon, she emerges as a fully committed=20 proclaimer of the Gospel. Her life transformation is remarkable. The author succeeds on an important level =96 her characters are=20 well-conceived and vividly presented. Reading as much fiction as I do, = I'm always interested in how well I can visualize the characters. Can I= =20 imagine how they looked, how they talked? Mouritsen does a fine job in = developing unique and believable players. She also succeeds nicely in evoking the times with realistic description= s=20 of the life and times of the Utah pioneers. Her reconstruction of what = is now the Temple Square area is very nicely done, richly detailed and=20= wonderfully presented. I did, however, find the book to be a bit preachy. While "The=20 Passageway" might be seen as a morality tale, it didn't need to be so=20= moralistic. An example: while in Provo, Katherine meets and falls in=20= love with a young man named Caleb, a practicing Latter day saint who=20= seems to half-believe Katherine's story. She had told him about her=20= friend Terri, who she wished Caleb could meet: *** Caleb put his arm around me, and pulled me close to his side. We walked= =20 in silence for a few moments. Then he asked, "And Terri? Tell me about= =20 your friend, Terri." "You'd like Terri. Not only is she beautiful, she's vivacious, charming= ,=20 and fun-loving." I frowned suddenly, thinking of some of the activities= =20 in which Terri and I had participated. Activities I knew Caleb would=20= never have taken part in. I flushed with embarrassment. How could I=20= have been so stupid as to disregard the teachings of my parents and the = Church? I could see clearly now that I had been rushing headlong down a= =20 path which could only lead to disappointment and remorse. (p,. 171) *** There are many more instances, most sounding a bit like an ongoing=20 testimony of the Gospel. Not a bad thing, of course, but perhaps=20 unnecessary in the context of a novel. Mouritsen also engaged in an odd literary telegraphing of the plotline, = often placing Katherine in the positiion of appearing to be a bit dense.= =20 For example, prior to leaving Salt Lake for Provo, one the family member= s=20 mentions bringing shears. In Salt Lake, the Walkers ran a cattle and=20= livestock ranch. So why would they need shears in Provo? Poor Katherin= e=20 couldn't figure it out. I must be really smart =96 I figured out they h= ad=20 sheep in Provo. But Katherine =96 well, she had to be assaulted by the = strong odor of sheep before finally working it all out. Having been=20= presented as an intelligent, educated young woman, this lapse seemed a=20= bit odd. I think older children, particularly young women, will enjoy this book. = =20 It is no doubt out of print by now -- my copy came through Deseret=20 Industries. I don't know if Mouritsen has continued her writing. "The = Passageway" left a few loose ends which, taken together, would make a=20= nice second volume. --=20 Jeffrey Needle E-mail: jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Date: 16 Dec 2001 02:13:51 -0700 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > In literature, I am more interested in "evil and its consequences;" however, > in conference, I like something else--reprimand. I very rarely like stories > that simply end with; "Prayers were spoken, aloud and in silence. Tears were > shed in that sweet, sweet moment of profound and pleading prayer. This > hometeacher listened to the spirit and went willingly, without waiting to do > his father's will . . ." > > As it has been mentioned. Some people like these kinds of stories, but I do > not. Why would anyone want only one particular kind of literature? I want stories that show good people doing heroic things, even in the face of personal loss, like _Les Miserables_. I want stories of confused people searching for truth and happiness, and not finding it until after a great struggle, like _Ben-Hur_. I want stories of lost people who are angry with God, who feel lost and don't know what to do about it, who come to an honest sort of peace with life, like _The Backslider_. I want stories of faithful people falling from grace becaue of their own mistakes, like the story of King David in the Old Testament. I even enjoy stories about people who are sinners and never repent, but who are made heroes by being less sinful than the wicked villain, like _The Sting_. I like stories of faithful people being faithful, faithful people messing up, unfaithful people becoming converted, unfaithful people rejecting coversion. I want them all. The only restrictions I place on my stories is that they be honest, that they be true to the truth, and that they offer redemption to the principle characters. Whether the character accepts redemption or not is his choice, but the opportunity needs to be there. I don't believe in fatalism. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: [AML] Alan MITCHELL, _Angel of the Danube_ (Deseret News) Date: 16 Dec 2001 12:36:14 -0700 An interesting article from The Deseret News Sat. Dec. 16. Thought I'd pass it on to the list, if that is allowed to do directly from another source. [MOD: We have permission to post literary-oriented articles from the Deseret News and other local Utah newspapers.] LDS mission novels not a big hit By Jerry Johnston Deseret News staff writer Mormon readers are looking for a few good MEN =97 a few good "missionary experience novels." Dozens of novels have been written about LDS missionary life, dozens more will be written. Like romances and mysteries, they've come to form a "genre" =97 a category of their own. Over the years I've read several mission field novels, ignored others and will never even hear of even more. The first one I read was Bela Petsco's "Nothing Very Serious," written in the 1970s. The last one I read I finished last night: "Angel of the Danube" by Alan Mitchell. And to a novel, the books suffer from the same fate. They remain relatively unknown. No matter how good they are, they don't generate a "buzz." Theatrical productions about missionaries fare better. They're lighter and filled with music. And the story is usually about missionary work itself, about a community of kids trying to overcome adversity and get the word out. Novels about missionaries, on the other hand, almost always focus on one elder =97 usually the narrator =97 struggling with faith a= nd faithfulness. His conflicts are internal. He often tries to maintain his individual identity in a sea of dark-suited sameness. He wrestles with authority. He slips, he slides. Sometimes he strays. And mainstream LDS readers just aren't buying it. Literally, not buying it. Such were my thoughts, anyway, as I read "Angel of the Danube." Mitchell's novel won an award from the Association for Mormon Letters. The cover art is eye-catching. The writing is brisk, insightful and wry. Mitchell is an excellent author. But like many street musicians in downtown Salt Lake City, he is a talented man pitching his wares to people who can't be bothered. And the reason, I think, is that mainstream Mormons don't like to see their missionaries as Mitchell sees them. Mitchell's hero is a bit too glib, a bit too clever. In an LDS romance novel or western, you can pump up the character flaws, double the quirks. Writers like Anita Stansfield can create a tug-o-war of tension that breaks your heart. But the mission field is another matter. For most Mormons, the mission field is not the arena for fighting your personal demons but for fighting the demon. "Missionary work" is about the work, not the missionary. In the mission field =97 such thinking goes =97 you = set aside your fretting and worry about larger matters. There will be plenty of time to grapple with authority back home. But for two years out there, you belong to God. Readers want action, not thinking. Some might call such attitudes "narrow" or even "unrealistic." But those are the attitudes. And any author who decides to be a "voice in the wilderness" and write about elders absorbed in themselves may as well write an "intellectual romance" or a "left-wing western." There's just no audience for it. In the end, Alan Mitchell has written a fine novel in "Angel of the Danube." It is honest and touching. It is strong and original. But like a lot of secular fiction, it portrays "compliance" as uninteresting and the battle for identity as paramount. And that's a good approach for a novel set in the boardroom or on the baseball field. It's just not so on LDS missions. If Mitchell had set his book on the battle field he'd have a blockbuster. But he set it in the mission field, where heady individuality carries the scent of "false pride" and irony sounds like mocking. Given such things, then, can there even be a literary masterpiece about the mission life? I think so. I wouldn't be surprised if one is on the way. And I wouldn't be surprised if it has a female writer and protagonist, rather than a young lion straining at his restraints. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 16 Dec 2001 15:26:34 -0700 >Women, do you hate arguing or are you just busy doing other things? In our >ward Sunday School class almost no women say anything. Busy doing other things. I pick my battles and conserve time/energy. In Sunday School I don't say much because I'm either fighting to stay awake or agreeing or so violently opposed that by the time I figure out how to make my remark without being totally contentious we have moved on to another subject. Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: Re: [AML] Minerva Teichert Paintings Date: 16 Dec 2001 15:28:09 -0700 Hey, does anyone know if Minerva Teichert ever did a painting of Mary Magdalene? Marianne Hales Harding - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Why Jan Shipps Is Leading Scholar of Mormon History: Publishers Weekly Date: 27 Dec 2001 09:14:56 -0600 Publishers Weekly pgS15 20Nov00 A2 [From Mormon-News] Why Jan Shipps Is Leading Scholar of Mormon History NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- Jan Shipps is a leading scholar of Mormon history. Her first book, Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition, is still in print after 15 years and is required reading in some college courses. Editor Liz Dulany writes, "It will be a popular book among Mormons and scholars in religious history, as well as in sociology of religion and Western history." What makes Shipps such an expert on Mormonism when she isn't a Mormon herself? She calls herself and "inside-outsider" that allows her a sensitivity to the LDS leadership. She has a good 40 year working relationship with Mormon leaders and wants to keep it that way. Recently, a delicate balancing act over Church-owned photographs of its temples was the cause of a delay in the publication of her new book, Sojourner in the Promised Land: Forty Years Among the Mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints public affairs department refused to grant permission to the University of Illinois Press to use the Church-owned photograph of the Salt Lake City temple on the dust jacket of Shipps' new book. She refers to it as "the dust-jacket dust-up." "This is just one more example of the tightrope I've been walking for 40 years." Shipps complied and publication was delayed from November to January. Shipps will interweave her own history of Mormon-watching with 16 essays on Mormon history and culture. More than half of the chapters are new and some have been revised and republished. She sees the collection as an ethnography, because "it reflects the four decades I lived as a sojourner in Zion, going back and forth to the place the Saints call the Promised Land." Shipps maintains a firm affiliation with the United Methodist Church, although her abiding passion is Mormonism. Source: Jan Shipps: Gentle Gentile among the Mormans Publishers Weekly pgS15 20Nov00 A2 By Jana Riess; See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0252025903/mormonnews More about Jan Shipp's "Sojourner in the Promised Land: 40 Years Among the Mormons" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN New Card Book Hits Bestseller Lists Before Publication: Kent Larsen Date: 27 Dec 2001 09:03:20 -0600 Larsen 14Dec00 A4 [From Mormon-News] New Card Book Hits Bestseller Lists Before Publication NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- As the paperback of Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Shadow" rises on bestseller lists after its release, fans have been attracted to Card's forthcoming book, "Shadow of the Hegemon," scheduled to be published in January. Both books follow a secondary character in Card's award-winning "Ender's Game." "Shadow of the Hegemon" joined the Mormon titles on the bestseller lists, appearing on Amazon's not-yet-published list, while two titles, Martha Nibley Beck's "Expecting Adam" and a book about MTV's Real World and its Mormon character, dropped off the lists. Meanwhile, Stephen Ambrose's history of the construction of the transcontinental railroad, "Nothing Like It in the World," continues to rise on nearly every bestseller list, holding at #1 on the independent Booksense list. Of the 11 bestseller lists Mormon News tracks, "Nothing Like It in the World" is in the top 10 on every list, except for those that don't distinguish between hardcover and paperback and fiction and non-fiction. The current titles on bestseller lists are: Nothing Like it in the World, by Stephen Ambrose A history of the building of the transcontinental railroad in the US. Ambrose, a highly regarded historian, details the involvement of Mormons in building crucial portions of the road, including the driving of the "golden spike" in the heart of Mormon territory. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 6 9 Amazon.com (Dec 13) Non-Fiction Hardcover 10 14 Amazon.com (Dec 14) 100 19 25 Barnes & Noble (Dec 14) Top 100 5 6 BooksAMillion (Dec 9) Non-Fiction Hardcover 1 1 Booksense (Dec 11) Non-Fiction Hardcover 4 4 Knight Ridder (Dec 14) Non-Fiction 4 4 New York Times (Dec 17) Non-Fiction Hardcover 5 9 Publishers Weekly (Dec 18) Non-Fiction Hardcover 25 35 USA Today (Dec 10) 7 10 Wall Street Journal (Dec 8) Non-Fiction Hardcover 4 2 WordsWorth Independent Bookseller (Dec 12) Non-Fiction Hardcover See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684846098/mormonnews More about Stephen E. Ambrose's "Nothing Like It in the World: The Men Who Built the Transcontinental Railroad" at Amazon.com The Carousel, by Richard Paul Evans LDS author Evans writes about the love between a man and a woman, which is tested by the demands of family and work. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 19 16 BooksAMillion (Dec 9) Fiction Hardcover 15 15 Knight Ridder (Dec 14) Fiction 15 15 New York Times (Dec 17) Fiction Hardcover 88 83 USA Today (Dec 10) See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684868911/mormonnews More about Richard Paul Evans' "The Carousel" at Amazon.com The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey This ten-year-old personal management classic is still selling strongly. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 21 15 Amazon.com (Dec 13) Non-Fiction Paperback 83 81 Barnes & Noble Top (Dec 14) 100 138 141 USA Today (Dec 10) 4 4 Wall Street Journal (Dec 8) Business See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671708635/mormonnews More about Stephen R. Covey's "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" at Amazon.com Ender's Shadow, by Orson Scott Card A "parallell" novel to Card's Hugo and Nebula award-winning Ender's Game. Told from the point of view of the 'also ran' to Ender, Bean. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 13 21 Amazon.com (Dec 13) Fiction Paperback 5 5 Booksense (Dec 11) Mass Market Paperback 29 - New York Times (Dec 17) Fiction Paperback 111 - USA Today (Dec 10) See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812575717/mormonnews More about Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Shadow" at Amazon.com Shadow of the Hegemon, by Orson Scott Card The second novel in Card's new series about Bean, Ender's shadow. In this novel, Bean is the tactical genius who wins the Earth for Ender's brother, Peter, the Hegemon. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 7 - Amazon.com (Dec 13) Not-Yet-Published See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312876513/mormonnews More about Orson Scott Card's "Shadow of the Hegemon" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: [AML] What Is Art? Date: 01 Jan 2001 00:40:04 -0700 I read some thoughts in the Liberal Arts section (pg. 42) from the book _Exhibitionism_ by Lynne Munson reviewed by Margaret Hildebrand in _National Review._ Of course these people are not LDS, but I found these views interesting. (I can't remember if this is the topic that was just closed.) Munson writes, _ The American art world of the 1970s and 1980s put a new spin on the idea of 'academic' art. Suddenly, being shocking or offensive or just anti-art was the safest approach an artist could take. And this corrupt aesthetics has been brutally imposed on all artists, patrons and students of art history. In 1966 grants were directed by Henry Geldzahler, an art curator, patron, theorist, and historian of impeccable taste and credentials. Under his guidance, panels of respected artists awarded fellowships to artists with proven bodies of serious work. These panels, Munson notes, _stressed quite emphatically the need to deliver support only to artists of proven merit, whose seriousness and accomplishment was recognized by other artists. Good art is not _amorphous_ or _trivial._ It never _sublimates aesthetic concerns to the demands of a social critique._ Munson explains that there is a _shock of quality, that instantaneous weakness, that breathlessness that we feel when in the presence of something that is absolutely right._ Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marsha Steed Subject: [AML] Re: Poetry Date: 02 Jan 2001 09:23:23 -0800 "And what if there were regular people lurking? Maybe they would write poetry that regular people understood, instead of just for the ivory tower academy. Some of us contend that the academic poets are the ones who killed poetry." - Bob Hughes Well, I write poetry, and I'll have to agree with you. I write it, but I don't always care to read it. So much of it leaves me cold and frankly touches no place within. I've had great response with the small bit that I've shared, since my stuff is less esoteric than many... but there really doesn't seem to be a market, and unfortunately money talks. M Steed - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marsha Steed Subject: [AML] Mormon Characters (was: CARD, _Lost Boys_) Date: 02 Jan 2001 09:30:25 -0800 "If you include Mormon people and bring up their Mormonness in a story, that colours your story. People will bring all their preconceived notions about Mormons (true or not) and apply them to your characters"--Terry L Jeffress . Wouldn't then, more and more writing *with* the religious inclusion... who turn out to be not particularly aligned with the popular preconceived notions eventually have some power to change those? It seems to me that if we take that approach, not include it because it may colour our singular character in a singular tale... then we will all be stuck in that very same rut of prejudice. Someone, no, lots of 'someones' have to begin somewhere don't they? M Steed - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 02 Jan 2001 19:35:16 GMT >Women, do you hate arguing or are you just busy doing other things? In our > >ward Sunday School class almost no women say anything. In my experience, it's a gender thing. Men are (tacitly) expected to have important things to say. Women who speak up are (tacitly again) considered to be loud, argumentative, and vaguely inappropriate, unfeminine. I know that when I speak up, no one pays much attention to what I have to say unless I couch it in humorous terms, whereupon they laugh. Well. . . I should have written that all in past tense, since I don't attend Sunday school anymore. I just go home till time to do my work as Young Women's Secretary. Cathy Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: [AML] TAYLOR, _The Dinner Club_ (and missing pages) Date: 02 Jan 2001 13:54:02 -0800 (PST) I've been reading Curtis Taylor's "The Dinner Club" after someone on this list recommended it. It was printed by Foreword Press. Does anyone know what that is? It's located in Camino, California, which is where (I think) Taylor lives, so I wonder if it is his own company. Anyway, the book has been quite interesting but is poorly edited. Even worse--no, TRAGICALLY--there is a major printing error. After page 312 comes a repeat of pages 281-296, and then the book resumes at page 329. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN THOSE MISSING PAGES! ARGGGG! Unfortunately, I got this book from the library, and so I can't take it back and exchange it for a good one . . . I must be the first person who has read this particular copy. Anyway, once a book is printed, published, marketed and distributed, what does an author do when he discovers that such a horrible error exists? When I first started reading and noticed all of the punctuation errors and dropped letters, I felt so sad for the author. But this--what happens now? ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 02 Jan 2001 17:03:31 -0700 Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson: --- I know that when I speak up, no one pays much attention to what I have to say unless I couch it in humorous terms, whereupon they laugh. --- --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters Date: 02 Jan 2001 17:32:22 -0700 >Wouldn't then, more and more writing *with* the religious inclusion... who turn out to be not particularly aligned with the popular preconceived notions eventually have some power to change those? It seems to me that if we take that approach, not include it because it >may colour our singular character in a singular tale... then we will all be stuck in that very same rut of prejudice. Someone, no, lots of 'someones' have to begin somewhere don't they? Makes sense to me. I know that for years after I read Riders of the Purple Sage as a young girl, I thought that Mormons were horrible, woman-stealing, man-whipping, brutal, crude, power-hungry monsters, based on some fictional characters. I didn't know any real Mormons, so that was the sole source of my impressions. On the other hand, after seeing the movie Witness, I came away with a very positive attitude about the Amish (although I'm much too selfish and worldly to live as they do). These things do affect people's perceptions. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters (was: CARD, _Lost Boys_) Date: 02 Jan 2001 19:49:40 -0600 At 09:30 02-01-01 -0800, you wrote: >"If you >include Mormon people and bring up their Mormonness in a story, that >colours your story. People will bring all their preconceived notions >about Mormons (true or not) and apply them to your characters"--Terry L >Jeffress . > >Wouldn't then, more and more writing *with* the religious inclusion... who >turn out to be not particularly aligned with the popular preconceived >notions eventually have some power to change those? It seems to me that >if we take that approach, not include it because it >may colour our singular character in a singular tale... then we will all >be stuck in that very same rut of prejudice. Someone, no, lots of >'someones' have to begin somewhere don't they? > >M Steed While JDL was in Utah (welcome back, btw), many of us continued a discussion to this effect over on the LDSF list. Specifically, someone brought up the subject of whether "magic" has any place in "Mormon literature" (whatever either of those terms in quotes means!), and if so, how to handle it. I then related the following experience: --- begin quote --- I have been working for a while now on a novel in which the main character is a telepath. As most of us do from time to time, I let a friend read and comment on what I had written. My friend objected to one particular scene on the grounds that the way the telepath used her psionic abilities in that scene did not seem to be reconcilable with the Mormon viewpoint of the "way things are" (the Gospel, the Plan of Salvation, free agency, etc.) BTW, it was not stated anywhere in the ms that the characters or setting were LDS, although one could perhaps draw that conclusion based on the fact that the majority of the main characters are basically honest and do not sleep around (so much for it becoming a best-seller), and those that aren't either have something bad happen to them or eventually get themselves straightened out (though perhaps not until after something bad happens to them). Anyway, what may be relevant here is that I was aiming for a more general SF-reading audience rather than specifically Mormon readers, but my friend viewed it through the filter of her own LDS background. Another time, I was having one of those "water-cooler conversations" (though to be excruciatingly accurate there was not a water cooler, drinking fountain, or fire hydrant in sight) with someone at work, and somehow the subject of telepathy came up, though he had not read my story nor had I mentioned it to him. This LDS person stated quite firmly that telepathy is impossible because the Savior is the only being with the ability to read the thoughts of wo/men. Note that neither of these reactions made me change the story or the specific part that the first friend objected to (which is really a fairly crucial part of the story). I thought you might find it useful, or at least interesting, to see how some LDS viewed telepathy as a plot element in trying to predict how an LDS audience might view a Mormon magic-user. Also, I might throw open the question to the members of the list: is telepathy consistent or inconsistent with an LDS world-view? How about magic? (Guess the last may depend on how one defines "magic": some may say that "magic" is by definition of Satanic origins.) What say ye? ---- end quote ---- My experience with my friend who read my manuscript shows that it is not necessary for there to be any explicit reference to "Mormons" or their "Mormonness" for readers to "bring all their preconceived notions about Mormons (true or not) and apply them to your characters." Those members of AML who are not on LDSF may find some useful insights in the discussion we had there during the past couple of weeks -- I know I did, even though I've obviously been considering the ramifications of this question for years. -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: Re: [AML] TAYLOR, _The Dinner Club_ (and missing pages) Date: 03 Jan 2001 12:46:40 +0900 I assume Foreword Press is just Taylor's own press, although I'm not sure. You're right, the book could use better editing. My copy of the book doesn't have your problem of missing pages, so I can tell you what happened. (Spoiler alert) Jack takes the check. Taylor mildly implies that perhaps this Jack Thompson is related to Helen. Chris goes to the strip club and confronts Gertie again, with a club in case he needs to fight the bouncer. Gertie looks sick. He gives her her excommunication notice from the Bishop. She says she is in drug withdrawl, and asks Chris for a blessing, which offends Chris. He says she isn't worthy of a blessing. She reminds him that no one has earned all their blessings, and begs him. He thinks about the things she has done for him in the past that he didn't "earn". He gives her a blessing and commands her to be healed, and instructs her to return to Christ, says "The gift of God is open to you." She thanks him. Still she goes to the club, saying she can't break her contract. She asks "Isn't everything lost?" Chris goes home, thinking about the blessing. Then he remembers he forgot to get her to sign the letter giving him power of attorney so he could sell the house. Ch. 20 The Answer Chris' money comes in, $617,000+. Chris declines Wally's offer of tricky tax shelters. A couple sees the house and makes an offer for it, but he needs to get Gertie's signature. The Bishop calls Chris for an interview and asks him to teach the CTR class, including Rustin. Chris sees Lettie and pays her back her loan with interest. Chris goes to the Temple in Oakland and prays for guidance about what to do next, but doesn't get an answer for a while. Afterwards after gazing at the beauty of nature, he hears the person he went through the temple for say Thank You. Although this is much simplier than the experiances Gertie used to have, he realizes that Gertie's experiences in the Temple were real, and that her courage to share them had been greater than his ability to accept. And that brings us to page 329. Hope that helps. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 02 Jan 2001 21:15:32 -0700 Cathy Wilson wrote: >I know that >when I speak up, no one pays much attention to what I have to say unless I >couch it in humorous terms, whereupon they laugh. Gee, I get the same response and I'm fairly unambiguously male. In my case it's probably that I talk too much, so the class has learned to ignore me. (I should also couch that in the past tense; I haven't commented in either priesthood or Sunday school since different teachers on the same day made comments to the effect that I was wasting their time. I still go, though.) While I would never suggest that there isn't a great deal of gender biasing in our culture (I know that there is), I suspect you may also be the victim of simple confusion as an educated, articulate person. People are often intimidated by someone who can express herself well, and will tend to sit in silence because they're afraid of sounding weak or trite by comparison. In your case, you're fighting on two fronts. All you can do is continue to offer your unique understanding and hope that someone gets it--though I know how hard it can be to be utterly ignored. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: plus two Subject: [AML] Re: Introductions: William Morris Date: 02 Jan 2001 18:58:13 -0800 (PST) This is a follow-up to my pre-holiday introduction. In sharing these connections to Mormon literature, my hope is that you all (if you're short on time, skip this message since it doesn't relate to the excellent threads that have been active on the list lately) will be spurred to take a moment to contemplate your own weird, bitter and/or sweet, personal connections to Mormon art and artists and that what you recall helps rejuvenate a project, or further a line of thinking related to Mormon literature. 1. As I understand it, my grandfather Forace Green and great-uncle Doyle Green started the first LDS Book-of-the-Month Club. Grandpa also edited the second edition of _Testimonies of Our Leaders_ and the second or third edition of Orson Whitney's _Saturday Evening Thoughts_. I only became consciously aware of my grandpa's 'literary' activities several years after his death. I even managed to obtain a bundle of tracts and pamphlets that he had used on his mission to the eastern states (sometime in the 20's) where he was in charge of public relations etc. This heritage (I love the tract which talks about all the USA firsts in Utah when it came to women liberation e.g. first all female city council, first female customs official etc.), while minor, pushed me/pushes me to grapple with the idea of Mormon literature (my tendency has been to avoid it and concentrate on canonical literary studies). The heritage he wanted to leave me (a pressure to continue a tradition) revolved around Scouting---it's one I couldn't accept. This one I can. 2. Kristen Randle was my Sunday school teacher for the one year that my family lived in Provo down near Utah lake. It was my first encounter with an LDS woman who acted and wrote and exuded a certain Bohemian flair (Bohemian is not the right word, but hey, I was a teenager who had grown up in a small town in southern Utah--can you say 'shelllllltered'). Intrigued, I read one of her early novels (so I guess there was one other piece of Mormon fiction I read as a teenager other than the _The Bishop's Horserace_). I wasn't blown away by it, but I liked it and thought it was well written. More importantly, I first became aware of LDS artists writing Mormon fiction that wasn't about pioneers but rather tried to explore the current Mormon condition. 2b. Steve Perry came and led a youth conference I attended when I was living in Fremont, CA (Bay Area). He asked some of the local youth leaders to identify the young man and woman who would be the best-prepared missionary. This is how I found myself walking up to the pulpit in front of hundreds of my peers to accept a copy of his album _Far Into the Heart_. Mortifying. I did listen to the tape though, and found some of the songs to be very catchy, even moving. I bring up these experiences because they underscored the importance of personal contact in my growing interest in Mormon art. What I like about this is that because of these two artists, I encountered (and was a less cynical consumer) works that I would normally have dismissed and came away from the experiences enriched and with an agenda of my own. The seeds were planted so that, when I got back from my mission claiming that my next mission was to destroy the Mormon popular music scene (too many companions that liked Mormon schlock). It only took the rediscovery of my Steve Perry tape to help me realize that destruction wasn't the most productive option. I began to develop the hope that a growing market for Mormon artists would foster an environment that would open room for works more to my taste. 3. My father (when he was working as a lawyer in southern Utah--Kanab) did a one-time consultation with Maureen Whipple (she didn't trust any of the lawyers in St. George) about her house. This is something I heard about only recently, but it is the type of strange moment that fuels my imagination, and since that landscape continues to haunt my memory and writing, it is a reminder that if I want to try writing southern Utah, I need to grapple with at least some of my predecessors. Does the Mormon audience really need another novel on the constraints of Mormon provincial, desert life? Only if it brings something new to the genre. This is why, although I imagine others might disagree, I think that a Mormon criticism is important. Yes, at a certain point you have to write the stories that you feel compelled to write, but both market considerations and literary history come into play----and a good Mormon criticism will help us (writers, informed readers, critics) understand both streams at each stage of Mormon literature. Finally, I lapse didactic, and assure all you out there that your works, examples, and personal contacts with people (no matter how fleeting) all can have profound effects that you never become aware of, so please persevere. It all helps. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 03 Jan 2001 12:51:06 +0900 Time for another Andrew's poll. This month I'd like to ask everyone: What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about faith and/or religion? What was it about it/them that you liked? Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: reid9 Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 03 Jan 2001 08:16:48 -0600 I solved this problem - I was called to be the Primary Chorister. What a great job!!! :) However, it really strikes me as - odd. unusual, funny, etc... - that so many of us on the list have this same problem. Could it be that creative thinkers - people who look at situations/scriptures/events with a different point of view create the feelings that Scott described. Or could it be that we all talk to much?;) Terri - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN U of U Press History of Utah Printing Released: University of= Date: 02 Jan 2001 23:40:10 -0600 Utah Press Press Release 28Dec00 A6 [From Mormon-News] U of U Press History of Utah Printing Released SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- Utah's first printing press arrived in Salt=20 Lake Valley in 1849, barely two years after the first settlers.=20 Purchased by printer W. W. Phelps at the behest of Mormon leaders,=20 the press was initially the church's private venture but also became=20 a tool to project political interests onto the national stage. The=20 first document produced was a general communiqu=E9 to the church at=20 large. Other early jobs included the second printing of the=20 Constitution of the State of Deseret, part of an early, unsuccessful=20 statehood bid, and the first issues of the Deseret News. Printing in Deseret is a concise narrative history of the advent of=20 printing in the state, and of the earliest printed documents, or=20 incunabula, created during the initial settlement years. It also=20 includes a bibliographic history of the press, chronicling more than=20 fifty printed items, most never before described. Advance praise for Printing in Deseret: "The bibliographic description of early Utah imprints is unsurpassed=20 in its thoroughness of coverage and descriptive detail." -George Miles, curator, Yale Collection of Western Americana "Thoughtful, wide ranging in scope, and painstakingly detailed,=20 Printing in Deseret, makes a notable contribution to the study of=20 printing's evolution in the nineteenth century American West." -Peter J. Blodgett, curator, Western Historical Manuscripts,=20 Huntington Library Richard L. Saunders received the Dialogue Writing Award for History=20 and Biography in 1996, he is currently the curator of Special=20 Collections and Archives at the Paul Meek Library, University of=20 Tennessee at Martin. PRINTING IN DESERET Mormons, Economy, Politics, and Utah's Incunabula, 1849-1851 By Richard L. Saunders Cloth $35.00 215 pp., 6 x 9 See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874806631/mormonnews More about Richard L. Saunders' "Printing in Deseret: Mormons,=20 Economy, Politics, and Utah's Incunabula, 1849-1851" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marsha Steed Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 03 Jan 2001 07:12:30 -0800 "Women, do you hate arguing or are you just busy doing other things? In our >ward Sunday School class almost no women say anything." - Not sure who this is quoting.... but... I haven't been in Sunday School since our move, (put us directly into the primary) but when I was there was only one reason I didn't say much... and that was if my husband was in class or not. He prefers the addage that woman are silent in church. Tounge in cheek perhaps here but the truth of it is that he didn't care to have me speak out. His motto is, 'It is better to ask some of the questions than to know all the answers". However that evidently doesn'tn hold true for searching questions. He didn't like those tossed out there either. I did however attend enough on my own evidently to have the SS teach tell me when we moved that 'class will be awful quiet without your imput'. Guess it is the curse of a Seminary teacher, current or past. My daughter is following in my footsteps. She is never afraid to speak out. I found that I fell into a balance. I keep quiet unless I feel the teacher is missing an important side point or another angle or actually teaching something that I find to be misleading. The better the teacher is, the less I say. I never answer 'sunday school' questions, you know the kind, "What did King Benjamine say when he got to the tower?" I only answer 'So What?" questions. So... in answer to the question, it would be my guess that either the teacher isn't asking the right questions, or there are too many men with my husbands attitude, or the teacher is excellent and comments aren't needed to correct them. . . or . . . something else entirely out of my scope of experience. I'm not certain why arguing has to do with speaking out in class though. Perhaps I've never been in a ward where folks feel the need to argue gospel principles. Afterall, I live in California. M Steed - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marsha Steed Subject: [AML] Telepathy and Magic (was: Mormon Characters) Date: 03 Jan 2001 08:17:46 -0800 "Also, I might throw open the question to the members of the list: is telepathy consistent or inconsistent with an LDS world-view? How about magic? (Guess the last may depend on how one defines "magic": some may say that "magic" is by definition of Satanic origins.) What say ye?" - quoted by Ronn Blankenship Well, for me anyway, my understanding of the gospel plan would easily include that sort of communication esp on a higher plane. I can't imagine that in the afterlife we'll all be limited to only voicing things. Just like a principle is differentiated with practices, if we don't use is now to its full ability doesn't in any way negate the fact that it both exists or that it may be used extensively in the future. Same with 'magic'. Being a fantasy writer myself, I used many many modes of 'magic' and throughly enjoyed the "Potter' books. I believe that magic is simply forms of science that we don't know all about just yet. Doesn't make it impossible. Certainly years ago most of what we do everyday and use every day would be considered high 'magic' by our ancestors. Sheeze, sometimes I just sit in awe at some of it. . . It seems that in the world of fantasy, magic is almost exclusively attributed to a 'higher power'. Something that the users of it owe hommage. In our lives don't we constantly use symbols and ideas to give that very same idea birth in the scriptures? ( See radical ideas like this is why some folks probably cringed when I do speak out in SS class ) Don't we limit ourselves terribly when we decide for the Lord what He can and can not use to teach with? In my understanding, it is the lesson that is most important, not the story or the 'type' used to teach it. Just thoughts. M Steed ( and thanks for the welcome back, 2000 was a looooooong year ) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 03 Jan 2001 09:54:43 -0700 Gae Lyn Henderson wrote: > Women, do you hate arguing or are you just busy doing other things? > In our ward Sunday School class almost no women say anything. While this may apply to no one but myself, (formal, self-deprecating apology; if it offends you please pretend I deleted it) I had an interesting experience for a couple of years when my husband was teaching one of those 12-week Sunday school classes. I found that when he wasn't there I'd contribute frequently in Sunday School, but when his class was on hiatus and he was sitting next to me my hand never went up. I don't know if I was making up for his inability to contribute or if when he's there I whisper too many comments to him and let some of the steam out of the pressure cooker, as it were. Since realizing this I try to notice when I would say something if he weren't there and to say it, but it becomes a conscious thing. But, as someone else said ( I deleted it so I don't know who), I often want to say something on topics I feel strongly about but by the time I've formulated a reply that doesn't sound completely inarticulate and crackpot the discussion has moved on. We have a number of feisty and articulate women in our ward, so I find if I mentally align myself with them (in temperament if not content) it's much easier to speak out. Debbie Wager - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters (was: CARD, _Lost Boys_) Date: 03 Jan 2001 10:20:21 -0700 Ronn Blankenship wrote: > I have been working for a while now on a novel in which the main character > is a telepath. As most of us do from time to time, I let a friend read and > comment on what I had written. My friend objected to one particular scene > on the grounds that the way the telepath used her psionic abilities in that > scene did not seem to be reconcilable with the Mormon viewpoint of the "way > things are" (the Gospel, the Plan of Salvation, free agency, etc.) My guess is that this friend was responding to your having written this, not to any "Mormonness" inherent in the story. It sounds like she's saying, "As a Mormon you know how things really are, so why would you write it this way?", which is a different question from the actions of presumably Mormon characters. And it sounds like the coworker isn't a reader of sf/fantasy at all. The point about the characters not needing to be Mormon for them to be judged as Mormons holds if the reader knows the author is Mormon. I know I read Card's and Wolverton's stories through an ever-present lens of Mormonism because I know that they are LDS. And I judge them (the stories) differently because of that lens. But I do agree that there need to be more Mormon characters in books in general, so that people can have more opportunity to form more accurate opinions. And they need to be named as Mormons so that those who aren't familiar with what a Mormon is (or think they are horse-thieving, woman-stealing scoundrels) will recognize them. Debbie Wager - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: [AML] Telepathy and Magic (was: Mormon Characters) Date: 03 Jan 2001 13:24:27 -0500 At 07:49 PM 1/2/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Another time, I was having one of those "water-cooler conversations" >(though to be excruciatingly accurate there was not a water cooler, >drinking fountain, or fire hydrant in sight) with someone at work, and >somehow the subject of telepathy came up, though he had not read my story >nor had I mentioned it to him. This LDS person stated quite firmly that >telepathy is impossible because the Savior is the only being with the >ability to read the thoughts of wo/men. > >Note that neither of these reactions made me change the story or the >specific part that the first friend objected to (which is really a fairly >crucial part of the story). I thought you might find it useful, or at >least interesting, to see how some LDS viewed telepathy as a plot element >in trying to predict how an LDS audience might view a Mormon magic-user. >Also, I might throw open the question to the members of the list: is >telepathy consistent or inconsistent with an LDS world-view? How about >magic? (Guess the last may depend on how one defines "magic": some may >say that "magic" is by definition of Satanic origins.) What say ye? Linda Sillitoe's novel _Secrets Keep_ (which was reviewed here on the list a few months ago-- about an hour after I finished a review which I had intended, but decided not to submit) is couched in a world of telepathy, crystals, premonition, etc. Almost all of the significant characters are active or semi-active in the church. It was published in 1995 and appeared to be still in print when I purchased my copy in July of 2000. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters (was: CARD, _Lost Boys_) Date: 03 Jan 2001 14:36:47 -0700 I said: > If you include Mormon people and bring up their Mormonness in a > story, that colors your story. People will bring all their > preconceived notions about Mormons (true or not) and apply them to > your characters. On Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 09:30:25AM -0800, Marsha Steed wrote: > Wouldn't then, more and more writing *with* the religious > inclusion... who turn out to be not particularly aligned with the > popular preconceived notions eventually have some power to change > those? It seems to me that if we take that approach, not include it > because it may colour our singular character in a singular > tale... then we will all be stuck in that very same rut of > prejudice. Someone, no, lots of 'someones' have to begin somewhere > don't they? I didn't say you shouldn't include Mormon characters, just that you should understand that when you do include such characters, that readers apply preconceived notions about those characters. I think Card tried to do with _Lost Boys_ just what you described, to show true Mormon characters as an attempt to deconstruct the reader's preconceived notions of Mormonism. Fiction that tries to function as a cultural missionary usually fails. That doesn't meant that you cannot have culture function as a background to your story. Chaim Potok presents Jewish characters in a background of Jewish culture. But Potok's characters make their decisions and accept their outcomes as a reflection of that culture. Card's characters in _Lost Boys_ don't show a response that reflects the Mormonness of his characters. In my opinion, Card should have left out all the references to Mormonism or changed his character's response to their tragedy. I make the same argument for any fictional element. If you include a snake in your story, you should have a reason for using a snake and not a spider or a lobster. Whatever animal you choose brings a heritage of myth and symbolism. The reader brings experience with that creature to your text -- both personal experience and experiences from other texts. Your text might cause the reader to solidify or change their opinion of that creature. By placing a fictional element in a poorly constructed story, you limit the effectiveness of your overall and secondary messages you wanted to convey with that element. And if that element causes the weakness in your story, then you should cut or revise. -- Terry L Jeffress AML Webmaster and AML-List Review Archivist - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters (was: CARD, _Lost Boys_) Date: 03 Jan 2001 16:51:02 -0700 On Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 10:20:21AM -0700, Deborah Wager wrote: [snip] > But I do agree that there need to be more Mormon characters in books in > general, so that people can have more opportunity to form more accurate > opinions. And they need to be named as Mormons so that those who aren't > familiar with what a Mormon is (or think they are horse-thieving, > woman-stealing scoundrels) will recognize them. To have non-Mormons come to a better understanding of Mormons through literature one of the following would have to happen: - A lot of non-Mormons would have to start reading Mormon literature - Mormons would have to write mainstream stories about Mormons and have them published nationally - Bestselling authors (Mormon or Non-Mormon) would have to write multiple novels involving "real" Mormon characters I don't see any of these happening any time soon. I think you seek a worthy goal, but don't think you will see fruition. -- Terry L Jeffress AML Webmaster and AML-List Review Archivist - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 03 Jan 2001 16:34:52 -0700 I like John Updike's two novels _S._ and _In the Beauty of the Lilies_.=20 _S._ is about a woman who leaves her marriage to join an East Indian-based = commune, and her experiences with faith and spirituality are fascinating. = Toto-like, she ends up dragging aside the curtain to expose the Wizard of = Oz for what he really is.=20 _In the Beauty of the Lilies_ is a multi-generational saga begun and ended = with religious experiences. To begin, a pastor loses his faith and quits = to become a mail carrier. In the end, a young man joins a mountainous = commune patterned after Waco. Updike renders these characters and = situations extremely well and vividly. Neither of these is faith promoting, by the way. I can't stand propa--er, = I mean fiction that is written with the intent to affirm faith or = religion. But I would like to see a few more wisps of at least the = _possibility_ of religious/spiritual truth or reality in fiction than = Updike provides. Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. >>> "Andrew Hall" 01/02 8:51 PM >>> Time for another Andrew's poll. This month I'd like to ask everyone: What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about faith and/or religion? What was it about it/them that you liked? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 03 Jan 2001 17:04:27 -0700 >"Women, do you hate arguing or are you just busy doing other things? In our >>ward Sunday School class almost no women say anything." I'm teaching the Gospel Essentials class right now. The bishop and his second counselor both attend. I asked them if they were checking up on me, but they said no, they actually like it. Anyway, we were discussing the fact that only men hold the priesthood, and I said that it was all right with me even though I am a flaming feminist, especially when the priesthood holders have to go to a four-hour meeting on Saturday before regional conference. The second counselor moaned and said that this was the toughest class he'd ever been to. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 03 Jan 2001 17:23:07 -0700 on 1/2/01 8:51 PM, Andrew Hall at andrewrhall@hotmail.com wrote: > Time for another Andrew's poll. > This month I'd like to ask everyone: > What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about > faith and/or religion? > What was it about it/them that you liked? Rudyard Kiplings novel "Kim." Even with all the history involved, the fascinating part for me was Kim's "guru" in whom he never quite believed, but could never quite disbelieve. Even in the end the holy man might well have found exactly what he was seeking--or not. How Kipling wove in the spiritual and mystical without clearly coming down on either side of the fence is was powerful. I don't know if others consider this a spiritual story. It did have that effect on me. Steve -- skperry@mac.com http://stevenkappperry.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Poetry Date: 03 Jan 2001 17:38:48 -0700 On Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:23:23 -0800, Marsha Steed wrote: >"And what if there were regular people lurking? Maybe they would write = poetry >that regular people understood, instead of just for the ivory tower = academy. >Some of us contend that the academic poets are the ones who killed = poetry." - Bob Hughes > >Well, I write poetry, and I'll have to agree with you. I write it, but = I don't always care to read it. So much of it leaves me cold and frankly= touches no place within. I've had great response with the small bit = that I've shared, since my stuff is less esoteric than >many... but there really doesn't seem to be a market, and unfortunately = money talks. I don't think we know if there is a market for many kinds of poetry. = Modern poetry seems to be largely cut from the same bolt. I know for sure that = as I look in the poetry section of my local Barnes & Noble that I am = supremely uninterested in anything modern offered there. My tastes tend to run towards the old masters--Shakespeare, Donne, Hopkins, Dickinson. That = kind of poetry isn't offered any more. At least, not that I can find. We've apparently moved on and I'm kind of sad about that. Frankly, some of the infrastructure required to develop that level of skill is gone so a = revival is likely not even possible. I mean, how good would Donne have been if poetry had had a lower profile in his day? I don't know who controls the market for poetry. I don't know who is publishing poetry these days, who determines what gets published and what does not, but I long for a new esthetic. Am I representative of a pent = up market demand? I don't know. But I'd like someone to publish it and = see. At least I'd stand a good chance of culling a new book out of it. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 03 Jan 2001 18:49:56 -0700 I loved "The Robe,""The Big Fisherman," and "Two From Galilee." I had seen the movie of "The Robe" many times with my mother, then read the book. I was raised in the Church of God (joined the LDS Church in college) and we would watch the movie each Easter. The story brings warm memories of good times spent with Mother. "The Big Fisherman" was written by Lloyd C. Douglas, the author of "The Robe" so of course I read it, too. I thinkt he third was by Marjorie Holmes. It just looked interesting, and it was--I'd never thought much about Mary and Joseph before I read that book. Andrew Hall wrote: > Time for another Andrew's poll. > This month I'd like to ask everyone: > What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about > faith and/or religion? > What was it about it/them that you liked? > > Andrew Hall > Pittsburgh, PA > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 03 Jan 2001 18:54:23 -0700 I'm just checking in on this particular thread of conversation, but if I read it right I'm sensing that not many women speak up in sunday School classes. Well, I must be the oddball of the group here then. I talk all the time and our Gospel Doctrine teachers look to me regularly for input. I even substitute taught a few weeks ago for one of the regulars. I'm not alone--our Relief Society president, Bishop's wife, Ward Choir director, Young Women's President, and lots of other women regularly participate in the discussion. It's our men who rarely make comments during the lessons. [LuAnn Staheli] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: reid9 Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 03 Jan 2001 20:45:38 -0600 I preceed my comment with the fact that Irish and Scottish blood flow through these veins of mine - so I have a disposition towards "things that go bump in the night." :) First my experience with telepathy, intuition, mind reading, etc.. Probably before this - but this is the first one that came to mind. When I was oh, so young, and going to school at Ricks (now referred to as BYU-Rexburg rather than the infamous cafe in Casa Blanca) and my now-husband, then fiance, was going to BYU, I would know when he was reading my letters to him. I would always glance up at the clock and make a note of when I got the funny feeling that he was thinking of me - and yep, that's when he was reading them. Then, when my youngest daughter was 2 and her little brother was a couple of days old - I remember sitting on the couch, changing his diaper and thinking (not talking out loud, just thinking) "I wonder of Jennie could figure out what the Desitin is?" I hadn't used it for Chris yet, but as I was half-way through a diaper change - I realized that he needed it. Moments later, Jennie walked up to me with the Desitin in her little pudgy hands and said, "Here, mommy, is this what you needed?" It is not uncommon in my house for me to be thinking about a song and have one of my children start singing that same song. No prompting on my part. My sister has often called and the first words out of her mouth are, "What's wrong?" She lives in Ohio - I live in Illinois. She usually feels things and acts of them - the spirit perhaps? She called me to tell me I was pregnant before I realized I was. I told her that the next time she had one of those feelings it should be about my getting rich, very rich! Really, I'm not nuts! Really! I agree with Marsha about magic - I think that magic is all around us - we just don't understand it. I use magic all the time. I have a daughter who doubted her abilities in reading. I let her borrow one of my "magic" stones - a really pretty smooth orangy stone - that I told her would help her remember all of the words she studied. She took it to school, kept it in her pocket and remembered all of the words. After a couple of weeks, the stone was left in the pocket of her jeans in the laundry room and she was remembering all by herself. MAGIC! I have also had neat experiences because I write local ghost stories. Every year at Halloween time, our local historical society has an event called, "Spirits of Yesteryear." It is quite tame and has quite an historical theme. However, one not so historical theme is me - telling local ghost stories and having stories shared with me by those who attend. You might be amazed at how many regular folks really believe that they have ghosts who live in their houses with them. Anyway, often we dismiss things because we haven't seen, can't touch, haven't had the experience - how blessed we are that the folks in the Book of Mormon who just had faith that Jesus would be born shared that faith and testimony with us - and with others. How many miracles are out there - right before our eyes and we could experience them if only we opened ourselves to the possibilities? Thanks for your fun question, Ronn! Terri Reid - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 01 Jan 2001 07:34:13 -0700 At my age, I am very tired of hearing _pat religious answers_ and _party-line responses._ When I comment in GD and RS, I avoid being contentious, but I always try to find a creative response. When I lived in Texas I was in a ward where the line between the _Liahonas_ and _Iron-Roders_ was clearly defined. We lived in a university ward where many of our members were liberals and feminists; while others were very traditional and not well educated. I think we respected each other and I liked the balance. When I left Texas a sister said, _You will be missed. We are losing the 'voice of reason' in our meetings._ Since moving back to Utah, there is no balance of thought in our meetings. I miss that. I don't consider myself an intellectual, but I still feel intellectually deprived. Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 01 Jan 2001 07:34:20 -0700 My favorite non-Mormon novel about religion is _Resurrection_ by Tolstoi. Tolstoi had an absorbing interest in humanity. _Resurrection_ is about love. _You may make good bricks without love,_ he said, _But you cannot treat men without love._ This is a powerfully uplifting book, not unlike _Les Miserables._ I love C.S. Lewis and when I need my faith in Christianity confirmed, I still like to read _The Screwtape Letters._ I am pragmatic and this book appeals to that side of me. If I were to lose a loved one or if I needed to recommend a book of comfort and inspiration to someone in need of consolation, I would turn to _A Grief Observed_ by C.S. Lewis. Lewis wrote this book after four brief, intensely happy years of marriage to his wife Joy. He wrote to defend himself against the loss of belief in God. Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 04 Jan 2001 01:04:40 -0700 Andrew Hall wrote: > What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about > faith and/or religion? > What was it about it/them that you liked? Les Miserables and Ben-Hur. Both are powerful stories of redemption. In both cases, the redeemed character started out decent, was taught to be a scoundrel or thirst for revenge by grossly unjust acts of society, and struggled to overcome that learned behavior. Ben-Hur's redemption came near the end of the story, which was mainly about his struggle to find it. Jean Valjean's redemption came early on, and the story was more about his struggle to remain true to his redemption throughout his life (enduring to the end). -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brent J. Rowley" Subject: Re: [AML] Orson Scott CARD, _Lost Boys_ (Review) Date: 04 Jan 2001 10:55:36 -0700 I was intrigued by the various posts concerning Orson Scott Card's _Lost Boys_ just prior to the Holiday break. And since it's still bouncing around a bit now, I just couldn't resist throwing in my two cents worth. During the course of my career as a Network Engineer, I found myself living in Greensboro, North Carolina for a period of about 14 months. (Aug. '97 - Oct. '98) And, as luck would have it, and to my great surprise and delight, I found myself attending church in the same ward as the Scott Card family. I had a rather unique opportunity to rub shoulders and observe him "up close and personal," and conversed with him on several occasions about books, publishing, and other things. Due to that closeness, my interest in his books was piqued. I'd seen his books around, of course, and my son was a die-hard fan. But I'd never read any. So, I proceeded to check out everything the public library had available with his name on it. I loved _Ender's Game_, and it's still my favorite. I thought _Treason_ was a bit weird, but very entertaining. I thoroughly enjoyed _Enchantment_. His _Alvin Maker_ series is superb, and I really enjoyed picking out the subtle similarities to LDS history. I'm still anxious to continue the series, and hope he'll give us another installment soon. And Scott gave me an autographed, hardcover copy of _Ender's Shadow_ as a going away present when I left. It's also very, very good. And, somewhere along the line, I read _Lost Boys_. I was initially surprised that he would publish, on the national market, a book so intimately LDS. It was a little weird and awkward at first. But I thought it was great that he would give the world such a taste of Mormondom. But a funny thing happened, while reading this book. As I got more and more into the story, I gradually found myself reading from three very distinct and different angles or Points of View, which resulted in three equally distinct reactions. I'd never had that happen before. First off, right from page one, I was reading from the POV of a writer. Having written and published a couple of books already, I just couldn't help analyzing everything from that viewpoint. And, of course, I was richly rewarded. I was just in awe at Scott's total command of the English language and the expert way in which he crafted sentences, paragraphs, and scenes. He is, without a doubt, a master at his craft. Like I said, I was totally awestruck. Someone else on the list mentioned earlier how he felt like every chapter in _Lost Boys_ could be used as text material for writing classes. I wholeheartedly agree. Second, I found myself, as others have mentioned, reading _LB_ from the point of view of a church member, knowing full well that Scott was an active member himself. And from that POV, I was very disappointed and, in fact, irritated at times. It bothered me a lot that he would resort to such bad language on so many occasions, and that he would take such an irreverent approach to the inner life on an LDS family. I was not impressed with the image it created -- especially in view of it going out to such a broad, national audience. I wasn't very comfortable having the protagonist family's dirty laundry aired that way. Sure, it probably represents a good many LDS families, and I'm sure there are many, many others with far worse secrets to keep. But I just didn't like having the whole world seeing that particular side of things. And finally, as I got deeper and deeper into the story, I realized that I'd heard the whole story before ... from Scott's own lips ... from the pulpit of the stake center, in the form of a 40 minute talk in sacrament meeting. (It was the second or third week that I attended the Summit Ward, and Scott was the feature speaker.) As it turned out, _Lost Boys_ was Scott's own life story. It was incredible. Right down to the tiniest, itty-bitty detail, it was exactly the story I'd heard in church. The talk was excellent, of course. He told the ward all about the trials he'd been through, his employment problems in Indiana, his extended family in Orem, and the birth of his handicapped son, etc., etc., which was the whole reason for his move to Greensboro (where they had such excellent care facilities available.) On and on, point for point, everything was the same -- with a couple of obvious exceptions, of course. Skip (the protagonist) is a software programmer, not a writer, and the underlying theme of the whole book, that of Skip's son and his "invisible" friends, is pure fiction. And then there's the much-talked-about climax to the story. Obviously THAT never happened in Scott's family life. But the rest is just a very cleverly disguised autobiography. Even Zap, Skip's handicapped newborn, is an exact duplication of Scott's own Charlie (who passed away recently, I heard.) And I was not in the least bit surprised when, in High Priest Quorum toward the end of my stay, I heard Scott tell a story of a child molester who had lived in his neighborhood somewhere along his life. Again, the boy genius super-programmer, a page right out of _Lost Boys_. Or visa versa. Anyway, reading the book from the viewpoint of a close acquaintance threw a "WHOLE 'Nuther" light on things. It answered ALL the questions about why he wrote it the way he did -- why he used mormon characters instead of baptist or methodist or whatever -- why there are apparently useless elements included here and there. It's just the way it happened ... that's all. Anyway, I don't know if this helps or hurts the book overall. It still has to stand on it's own in front of it's national audience. But maybe it will help some of you understand where in the heck he came from when he wrote _Lost Boys_. -BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Edward Hogan Subject: RE: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 04 Jan 2001 15:39:07 -0500 C. S. Lewis' Narnia Books, with his science fiction ones right after that. I like them so much, I suppose, because I find that the Christian experience he describes is so similar to my own, and yet we come from quite different backgrounds. Ned -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:51 PM Time for another Andrew's poll. This month I'd like to ask everyone: What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about faith and/or religion? What was it about it/them that you liked? Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 04 Jan 2001 15:17:29 -0800 (PST) Frederick Buechner's novel _Brendan_ is my favorite religious novel (Mormon or not). It's about about St. Brendan, one of St. Patrick's converts, who searched his whole life for earthly paradise--Eden--which he believed still existed on earth. He may have "discovered" America. He performs miracles sometimes, sometimes not, while missionarying with some quirky companions. His escapades are sacred and bawdy, hilarious and tragic. A part of the novel is the fictionalized "diary" of Brendan created in an amazingly archaic tone. While some consider his style mannered, I'm hooked. Buechner, a gifted novelist turned minister, wrote many other religious novels worthy of an LDS readership as well: _Godric_, _The Son of Laughter_ and _The Book of Bebb. His 3 volume memoir is wonderful too, as well as his many collections of sermons and meditations. I'm really surprised many Mormons have never heard of him. Annie Dillard is one of his frequent backscratching reviewers. Ed Snow ===== Among best sellers, Barnes & Noble ranks _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ in its top 100 (thousand, that is). Available now at 10% off http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD&mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: RE: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 04 Jan 2001 18:38:49 -0500 Garrison Keillor's stories about Lake Wobegon and the Church of Perpetual Responsibility, where the volunteer work gets done because good people need to expiate their sins. Merlyn >From: Andrew Hall [mailto:andrewrhall@hotmail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:51 PM >To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories > > >Time for another Andrew's poll. >This month I'd like to ask everyone: >What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about >faith and/or religion? >What was it about it/them that you liked? > >Andrew Hall >Pittsburgh, PA > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 1 Date: 02 Jan 2001 10:52:09 -0700 ON STAGE Transcendence in Film (Part One) Eric Samuelsen I'm not a film scholar. I'm a theatre guy in a department that includes = film guys, and, as they are always quick to remind me, I don't really know = what I'm talking about when it comes to film criticism. I'm just a guy = with some training in scholarly matters who happens to see a lot of = flicks. So when I say that there's this fascinating body of films that = share certain characteristics and that might therefore constitute a genre, = please understand that 'genre' is a hot topic in film studies, and that = I'm probably getting it all wrong. So, there's my disclaimer. Ahem, = throat cleared, here we go: there's this fascinating body of films out = there that share certain characteristics and that might therefore = constitute a genre. I call them "films of transcendence" and I would = define the genre something like this: films that directly or indirectly = suggest the existence of another, better, reality beyond and above = everyday reality. Films, in other words, that suggest the existence of an = afterlife, or miracles, or God, or some other transcendent spiritual = reality. Transcendent films often depict painful or ugly or unhappy = realities, sometimes quite graphically. But they also depict something, = well, transcendent; something healing, somthing miraculous.=20 For now, I'd like to exclude films about angels from my genre. = Heck, I can define a genre any way I want to, and I don't like films about = angels. Angels in films always seem like something of a copout, and a = somewhat sentimental copout to boot, like we're afraid of real transcendenc= e, and so let's cute things up with a be-winged John Travolta smoking and = belching at us in Michael. Look no further than the Disney kiddie sport = film Angels in the Outfield, for example. Or that maudlin TV series = starring Michael Landon/Roma Downey. 'Nuff said. =20 I'd like to show what I mean by discussing four more or less = recent films that, in my opinion, have some measure of transcendence at = the very heart of the story. The first film is what I might call Transcendence Lite. _What = Dreams May Come_ has been discussed before on the List. It's a film from = '98 or '99, written by Ronald Bass and directed by Vincent Ward. Robin = Williams plays a physician who dies and goes to heaven, and then learns = that he has to go to hell to rescue his wife (Annabelle Sciorra) who has = committed suicide. Cuba Gooding Jr. plays the afterlife guide who helps = him sort this all out. The transcendence angle is quite obvious in this film: after all, = two thirds of the film takes place in heaven. At its best, the film = plumbs some genuine human emotions. It shows quite movingly the pain and = anguish of parents who have lost children (Williams and Sciorra's children = had been killed prior to his accident, and he meets them in the afterlife).= Still and all, I found the film quite irritating at times. For one = thing, Sciorra's character is an artist, and Williams' afterlife is set = in her paintings. This results in a kind of pretty pastel heaven, and I = spent most of the film convinced that it was actually hell, and that that = was going to be the big plot twist: he thinks he's in heaven, but actually = he's not. I'm sort of an art snob, and I thought the film made heaven = look, well, tacky. And of course, I was bugged because I thought I'd = guessed something and I'd been wrong, which is always annoying. Hell, on the other hand, was nicely grim and gothic, and the = scenes where Williams rescues Sciorra were quite affecting. Theologically,= I found the film very troubling. Sciorra's character's journey is = horrific. Her children die in one awful accident. Unable to deal with her = grief, she's briefly institutionalized, but finally begins to recover, in = large measure because of the love and support of her husband. Then he's = killed. She can't deal with it, and she commits suicide. The notion of = hell being a mental state of one's own creation was powerfully depicted; = she gets to live, eternally, in the state of anguish in which she died. = Where's God in all this? Where's the atonement? Where's even the = simplest human compassion? Okay, Robin Williams is able to go to her and = save her, and it all works out. But the film strongly suggests that that = sort of hubby-intervention is rare; that most people in her situation = don't get rescued. Ever. What an appalling thought. What a despicable = theology. When we talked about this film on the List, a lot of you liked it, = and I suppose it does urge us to contemplate the eternal consequences of = our earthly sorrows. Mostly I think it's an artistic and theological = failure. In part it fails because its depiction of transcendence is too = specific, too literal. Good transcendence is more mysterious, or perhaps = depicted more symbolically. From the Lite to the Grim: the next film I'd like to talk about is = a film a lot of you probably haven't seen and that I don't recommend. = It's a 1996 film called _Breaking the Waves_. Written and directed by the = Danish filmmaker Lars von Trier, it stars Emily Watson, who was nominated = for an Oscar for her performance. Watson plays Bess, an emotionally = disturbed young Scottish girl, who lives in a deeply religious island = community. She marries Jan (Stellan Skarsgard), who works on an oil = drilling rig out in the middle of the sea. Bess talks to God throughout = the film: she has these two-way conversations with Him, talking and = responding in her own voice. She's madly in love with Jan, so much so = that she can hardly bear it when he has to get on the helicopter that will = take him to work on the oil rig for his two or three month shift out = there. And then he's involved in an accident; he's nearly killed, and is = paralyzed for life. And rendered impotent. And also, the film suggests, = he's driven a little mad. Bess is devastated by his injury. And he tells her that their = marriage cannot survive it; specifically if he can't make love to her, he = won't survive mentally, and won't love her anymore. And then he tells her = that she must do something for him, to prove her love. She must have sex = with other men, and then come to the hospital and tell him about it. =20 At first, she can't even bear the thought of doing what he asks of = her. But he's still very ill, and when he has a medical crisis and almost = dies, she becomes convinced that God is punishing her for not obeying him. = (In fact, we see the conversation she has with God, and we hear God, = through her voice, telling her to obey her husband). And so she does it. = She has sex with total strangers. The film is quite graphic, but = unbearably painful; although you can see more than you probably want to, = your entire focus is on her face, as we see how utterly humiliating and = horrifying it is for her to have these sexual experiences, and how equally = awful it is to have to relive it by telling him about it all. I don't recommend this film. It's an ugly, sexually explicit = film. It's also not even remotely erotic. If you decide to rent it = anyway, don't read the next two paragraph; I'm going to give away the = ending. She tries to seduce Jan's doctor, a Dr. Richardson (Adrian = Rawlins). He's a kind and compassionate man, and of course turns her = down; he's deeply troubled by her behavior, and more by her explanation = for it, and he begins a process in which she will be institutionalized. = She also learns that Jan's health has deteriorated to the point that he's = dying; the doctors can no longer help him, and he has, at most, a few = hours to live. At this point, the film becomes all but unwatchable. She = escapes the bus taking her to the mental hospital. She has learned that a = certain boat anchored in the harbor has a crew so vicious that even the = town's prostitutes will no longer go out there. She rows to that boat, = and is violently gang-raped. She's taken to the hospital, so brutalized = that Dr. Richardson barely recognizes her. And she dies. Smiling, = because she did what God required of her. She sacrificed herself. The next scene is her funeral. It takes place on the oil rig. = And there, at the funeral, is her husband. Jan has recovered; he didn't = die. And he's walking; limping, to be sure, but walking. It worked; her = sacrifice saved him, and he knows it. And he's devastated by the = knowledge that, in his illness, he forced her to do what she did. And = yet, he's also . . . healed. And the film ends with a suggestion of her = own transcendence, a suggestion that she's gone to a better world.=20 I truly don't know what to make of _Breaking the Waves_. It's one = of the most troubling films I've ever seen. At one level, it could be = seen as a film about the atonement. Christ abased himself to save us; we = would, I'm sure, find Gethsemane unwatchable, unendurably painful. The = film certainly caused me to contemplate issues relating to the atonement. = And yet it's also a film of such cruelty. Do we participate in the film's = cruelty by vicariously experiencing it? Is the horror of the film = justified by the transcendence of its ending? Is Von Trier the woman-hatin= g sadist some of his critics have accused him of being? Or is he the new = Ingmar Bergman, the most interesting religious filmmaker going? I don't = know. It's a film I can't get out of my head. What I don't know is if = that's a good thing or not. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 2 Date: 02 Jan 2001 10:52:09 -0700 ON STAGE Transcendence in Film (Part Two) Eric Samuelsen The next film I'd like to discuss is my personal favorite film of = 2000, and perhaps the best example of transcendent filmmaking I've seen in = awhile. Ridley Scott's _Gladiator_ was marketed as a big, brawny action = flick, WWF filmmaking at its tackiest. I found it utterly transcendent. Russell Crowe stars as Maximus, a Roman general in the era of = Marcus Aurelius. From the opening battle sequences to the final combat in = the Coliseum, the film shows the casual brutality and violence of ancient = Rome. It's a film Edward Gibbon would have approved, at least thematically= perhaps, except that Gibbon would have wanted to get the history right: = the Republic was not, in fact, restored in the third century. Far from = it. =20 It's a violent and ugly film about a violent and ugly era. We see = just how the Roman legions conducted warfare, and we see just how = gladiators died in the Games. The digitally enhancements now available to = filmmakers enable Scott to really show us a shower of Roman arrows, for = example. (Scott was also able to digitally insert images of the late = Oliver Reed, who died during the making of film, into scenes had not yet = been shot at the time of his death, an ironically transcendent devise = conferring a kind of technological immortality.) =20 And yet, it's also one of the best films I've ever seen about the = afterlife, and the possibility of eternal marriage. Maximus is consumed = throughout the film with two thoughts. First, he wants to do his duty. = His emperor gave him an assignment before he died, and Maximus is a loyal = soldier: he will obey his orders, no matter how impossible they may seem. = His stolid, quintessentially Roman loyalty makes him a very appealing and = powerful character, fleshing out someone who might otherwise be nothing = more than a Victor Mature character, a butt-kicking hunk. But Maximus has = one other obsession. He wants to go to the afterlife and see his wife and = son again. And when they're killed, and when he's nearly killed, we see = his version of heaven: a villa, with a field of ripe grain. And then, at = the end of the film, he dies in the arena, and we see a gate. And the = gate opens. And his wife and son are waiting to greet him. I've seen it = three times, and I cried every time. I so want that to be what's waiting = for me. Transcendent films are, at their best, often R-rated. It's = important to recognize that; the best films dealing with transcendence = contrast it with very ugly realities. These films remind us that what = awaits us is better than what we have here; to do so, they also tend to = show us some fairly nasty realities. Even a not-so-good transcendent film, = like _What Dreams May Come_, show us how painful and difficult life can, and = focus on grief and pain and sorrow, to contrast that reality with a better = reality to come. _Gladiator_ shows us a life filled with violence and death. = And it also shows how faith can survive in a warrior. It's a film Moroni = would have understood. I want to briefly touch on two remarkable films that deal with = transcendence in very different ways. I think the second Babe film, _Babe: = Pig In The City_, which was widely trashed by critics, is one of the finest = films of the nineties, and a superb film about religious values. Like = _Gladiator_, it gives us a glimpse of a most appealing heaven, in the midst = of death and despair. The best children's literature works on multiple = layers, and the best children's films do the same; the Babe films reach = levels of immortality achieved in literature only by E. B. White, Richard = Adams and C. S. Lewis. (The Deseret News critic actually liked the Jim = Carrey _Grinch_ better than _Pig in the City_, prima facie evidence of either = incompetence or someone who just doesn't have good taste.) We've also = spent a lot of time on the List talking about _American Beauty_. Certainly = it meets my definition of transcendent filmmaking, and I did enjoy it. My = problem with it is that it makes the afterlife seem somehow consequenceless= . That troubles me theologically. And I was very bothered by the Marine = colonel next door, played by Chris Cooper, who has made an entire career = playing deranged authority figures. The military officer as martinet: = such a cliche. =20 The last film I want to bring up is just out. Billy Bob Thornton = directed an adaptation of Cormac McCarthy's _All the Pretty Horses_. I = haven't read the novel, and can't really comment on the faithfulness (or = lack thereof) of the adaptation. It's a stunning film visually, I'll say = that; south Texas and Mexico have never looked so great, and horses are = really astonishingly photogenic animals. Matt Damon's a fine actor, and = it's a real pleasure seeing Sam Shepherd act again, and seeing Bruce Dern = as a non-psycho for a change. But what's interesting about this film is = its structure. Am I nuts, or is this film a Western about the plan of = salvation? Framing the film are two conversations in which Matt Damon asks = this question: does God look out for people? The answer the film seems to = provide is a troubling one: God looks out for Anglo movie stars, but = Mexicans? Not so much. I'm exaggerating, and I certainly don't want to = accuse anyone of racism, but I was bothered by some of the ways in which = Mexican characters were portrayed. That aside, the film does begin and end with a question about God. = The rest of the structure goes as follows. Two Texas ranchhands (Damon = and Henry Thomas), decide to go to Mexico to work on a ranch. While = there, they have numerous adventures. Damon falls in love with his boss's = daughter, they meet a troublemaking American kid, who gets them in = trouble, they go to prison, they're nearly killed, and then finally they = go back to Texas. So try this on: the film is about the plan of salvation.= Crossing the Rio Grande (which both coming and going is treated by = Thornton as a tremendously portentous event) marks birth and death. So = the early scenes in Texas are the pre-earth life. The scenes in Mexico = represent mortality. Then the scenes in Texas late in the film represent = the final judgment. (Damon is immediately arrested upon his return to = Texas, and is pronounced a good person by the Judge, played by Dern. Which = is more or less where the film ends.) I'll take this a step further. The Law Damon has to obey while in = mortality might be termed 'the Code of the West.' It's all very manly and = Western. You don't let someone steal your horse. If they do, you gotta = get it back. You respect women, and fight to protect their honor, but you = also follow your heart, and if you're in love, you do anything you = honorably can to be with her. You never start a fight, but you do defend = yourself. You work hard, and you set yourself difficult challenges, and = you meet them. You stick by your friends, no matter what. You help the = helpless, though you are allowed to get exasperated at them. And = ultimately, you're judged by how well you've done. The film focuses on these simple rules, and on staunch-and-stalwart= Damon's efforts to follow them. And he is judged fit at the end of the = film. And the film also gives us a glimpse of the afterlife. Damon is = nearly killed in a knife fight (one he didn't start, of course), and he = sees a vision of a kind of Texas-laconic afterlife, which, he's told, is = 'pretty much like anywhere else.' I'm not a fan, particularly, of this kind of Western myth-making. = I thought it was an interesting script. I did think the parallels with = the plan of salvation were interesting. But as a transcendent film, it = doesn't match the power and craft of _Gladiator_. =20 Still, it's an interesting genre, and one that we Mormon types = should find of particular relevance. Of course, _God's Army_ would also fit = the genre. Does anyone else have any nominees? A few other transcendent = films I can think of might include _Raising Arizona_, _The Hudsucker Proxy_, = _Places in the Heart_, I suppose the Star Wars films (though they do it = quite badly), _Being John Malkovich_, maybe _Heaven Can Wait_, _Ghost_ (gag). = _The Sixth Sense_, maybe, though I'd kind of like to declare horror flicks = out of bounds, along with angel flicks. After all, I'm defining the genre = here, and can make up the rules as I go along. Anyone have suggestions to = make? In any case, here are a bunch of films doing, in part, what we've = argued Mormon artists could and perhaps should do; deal directly and = openly with religious issues. Some are successful, some aren't. What = lessons can we learn? I have some ideas, but I'll save them for another = column. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters (was: CARD, _Lost Boys_) Date: 04 Jan 2001 17:46:58 -0600 Terry Jeffress writes: If you include a >snake in your story, you should have a reason for using a snake and >not a spider or a lobster. Whatever animal you choose brings a >heritage of myth and symbolism. The reader brings experience with >that creature to your text -- both personal experience and experiences >from other texts. Your text might cause the reader to solidify or >change their opinion of that creature. By placing a fictional element >in a poorly constructed story, you limit the effectiveness of your >overall and secondary messages you wanted to convey with that element. >And if that element causes the weakness in your story, then you should >cut or revise. I don't think I agree with this. In particular, I'm not sure I agree with this in the context of Card's _Lost Boys_ (although I've already written why my opinion on this particular piece may be suspect, since I did not read the entire work and read it out of order). But I also think I disagree with the description of good storytelling that Terry seems to be relying on here, in arguing that a character should not be Mormon unless that Mormonness "makes a difference" to the story itself. This theory of the story that Terry propounds is a common one--the notion that every element of a story should be carefully crafted and meaningful, under the author's control, contributing to the overall effect of the story--but it's not the only possible theory of storytelling, nor do I think it is the most persuasive theory. I recall, for example, Bakhtin's theory of the novel, which, as well as I can explain (or indeed understand) it, talks of the novel as a space inhabited by many different voices, mediated perhaps but not necessarily under the control of the writer--indeed, to the degree that all the voices of the novel are the writer's voice in disguise, I believe Bakhtin would label the story not truly a novel at all. In a sense, the story becomes the occasion of the conversation between characters, in the Bakhtinian definition. I'm not really arguing that _Lost Boys_ is a novel in the Bakhtinian sense. But I think that the central *dramatic* event of the story (the death of the family's son and his return as a ghost)--the resolution of which is not, Terry complains, related to the Mormonness of the characters in a way that justifies that Mormonness--is not really the heart of the story Card is trying to tell. The center of the novel is the Mormon family and what happens to them, of which the murder of a child and his reappearance as a ghost is merely the culminating incident. To some degree it is the healing and resolving incident--since it opens up the way for the family to really start communicating again about what's really important to them. But the story Card is telling is the story of what happens to that particular Mormon family in course of that year--not, fundamentally, a ghost story. To say that the characters' Mormonness is extraneous because it doesn't affect how they respond to that event is, in my opinion, to place the ghost story above the story of the family. If you see the story of the family as central (as I do), and the event of the ghost as contributing to that story--instead of vice versa--then the "problem" of the family's unjustified Mormonness vanishes, in my opinion. Obviously Card's story does not work equally well for all readers. It's revealing, for instance, that Terry Jeffress, an experienced sf&f reader, and D. Michael Martindale, a Scott Card fan, find this particular story deeply flawed. It may be that there's a problem with this novel in that it goes too far in assuming the trappings of a horror story when, I would argue, that's not really what it is. But I disagree that the presence of the Mormon elements themselves is a problem. Rather, I think it's at the heart of the story Card is attempting to tell--a story which connects to some readers, at least. And as a general point, I think it's important not to place an unnecessarily high standard for the presence of Mormon characters and Mormon elements in storytelling, when, in fact, I think that the desire to write about a Mormon character is sufficient justification for doing so. Jonathan Langford speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 04 Jan 2001 17:52:42 -0600 I think that an individual person's experience (male or female) in Sunday School classes and other Church settings is likely to depend highly on the particulars of that ward, that meeting, that teacher, etc. I've been in classes--I'm in one right now--where comments seem to be welcome from pretty much everyone (though I've heard comments from some class members who get fed up with people, presumably such as myself, "interrupting" the lesson with their comments). I've been in other classes where my comments tended to bring on a kind of glassy-eyed response from the teacher--not I think because they were particularly controversial, but because she didn't know quite how to deal with them, since they weren't part of where she was planning to go with the lesson. I was going to say more about this, but suddenly I'm experiencing a stupid of thought, so I'll stop... Jonathan Langford speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: [AML] Re: Telepathy and Magic Date: 04 Jan 2001 16:35:44 -0700 Ronn, As far as telapathy goes, I guess I have it. At least I know when it is my sister calling or when I need to call her and so does she. We also say the same thing at the same time. Of course we were in the womb together too. But anyway couldn't telapathy be a gift of the Spirit? Or at least simular to at least one of them. And as far as magic is concerned, if you went back in time 200 years with a flashlight wouldn't they think you could do magic. It isn't nessecarly magic. It just is beyond explaination in our realm of experience. Anyway that is my take on it. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 04 Jan 2001 16:48:58 -0700 Andrew, My favorite book about faith is "Hinds' Feet in High Places" by Hannah Hurnard printed by Barbour and Co. The story is purely symbolic but does a great job of making the purpose of life clear and giving a better understanding of Christ. There are some points that I don't agree with but it is well writen and does clearly talk of faith in Christ. As far as that goes you can't forget any of C.S. Lewis' stuff. Even the Narnia books have alot of sybolism and talk of Chirst. (I haven't had the oppertunity to read all of his work yet but what I have read would get my vote and I have to assume that the rest would too.) Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: RE: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 04 Jan 2001 16:57:13 -0700 Simple minded soul that I am, my all time favorite is Dickens' _A Christmas Carol_. I fell it love with is as a kid, and still read it every couple of years. A finer example of sin, repentance, forgiveness, and redemption is hard to find. You didn't ask, but my favorite film version is the one featuring Lionel Barrymore as Scrooge. Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 04 Jan 2001 17:38:31 -0700 > Since moving back to >Utah, there is no balance of thought in our meetings. I miss that. I don't >consider myself an intellectual, but I still feel intellectually deprived. Maybe you're just in the wrong ward, Nan. In my ward individuality is appreciated and applauded. Yes, even among the women. Half of the Sunday School and Relief Society teachers are single--some of us even divorced! Gasp! Teachers pull from their job experiences and professional experiences to enrich the lessons. We talk about books and politics and environmental issues, not just about potty-training or supporting our husbands. Many of the young women in my ward who are living lives that would be heck for me--stay-at-home moms--are bright, intellectually curious, thoughtful, nonjudgmental people. Their husbands are lucky to have them, and most are smart enough to know it. Gosh, come to think of it, several of these women are even Democrats! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Covell, Jason" Subject: RE: [AML] Poetry Date: 05 Jan 2001 12:51:38 +1100 I would say my tastes ran to the same sort of old masters, but I have never felt the lack of worthy modern successors. I experience the same bristle of hairs on my neck (vide Housman) from Seamus Heaney and Derek Walcott as from Hopkins and Dickinson - and I get the same haunting by snippets of verse that come to me at odd times and leave me all tingly, gaping at the middle distance. I feel that their sheer craft (and that of some other contemporaries or recent contemporaries) is in no way diminished just by no longer living in English poetry's golden or silver ages. But that's me. I also think that among 20th century poets, Osip Mandelstam exceeds all but a very few all-time greats in English. I've had the privilege of reading him in Russian, which lends its own perspective. Again, I think craft is the thing - it's not a dead art, just a rare one (as it's always been). The "academic" style is mostly pretty refrigerating, I do agree. On an LDS-lit note, I've got an open question for the list. I've been trying to track down a poem (and its author) which I chanced across in (I think) the Deseret News or Church News, circa December 1996. The poem described a simple scene, of a father rehearsing in an empty font with his child, for the child's upcoming baptism. I read it quickly, passed it to the family I was staying with in Utah and stabbed my finger at it. "There! That's a real poem." Never saw it again, and I can't remember the author or any other identifying details. If this seems familiar, or indeed if the author is on the list, I'd love to find out what it was and have a chance to re-read. This was one of my first encounters with LDS lit, and it made a strong impression... but all that's for another post. Jason Covell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 04 Jan 2001 21:09:29 -0700 Mike Quinn's works of "New Mormon History". Mike's fiction is better written than the classic trashy anti-mormon stuff, and much more entertaining than Fawn Brodie. Also the only writings I can recall where the footnotes generally outweigh the text by a significant margin. --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 04 Jan 2001 22:51:14 -0600 One of my favorites is Tolstoy's Anna Karenina. The beauty of hope realized when things work out for the ordinary person and the anguish of the consequences of wrong choices seem to fit in well in an LDs context. Tolstoy makes the characters and their struggles (with both marriage and faith in a larger context) very real, something that many people of many philosophies have been able to relate to. Hugo's Les Miserables, for the same reasons others have said--wonderful themes of redemption and the chance to make something good out of something bad. C.S. Lewis, Chronicles of Narnia. It's the first thing I read to my kids, even though I know they're too young to understand anything. Someday they will, first on the basic surface story level, and eventually on the spiritual level. Rose Green - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 04 Jan 2001 23:26:00 -0700 Two favorites: _Les Miserables_ which is about a great many things, with personal religion as one of them. I was very impressed by what I saw as a depiction of real religion stripped of the show. John Irving's _A Prayer for Owen Meany_ is arguably the most straight-forward, non-affected story I've ever read about one character's search for the basis of religion or spirituality or whatever it is that lives below the level of specific creed. The book was recommended to me by list member J. Scott Bronson, and is the best book I've read in quite some time. I would love to see a Mormon write a novel like _A Prayer for Owen Meany_ that can be faithful, doubtful, cynical, confused, idealistic, and hopeful all at the same time. This strikes me as more representative of my own experience with both the public and the private religion that I've known. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic (was: Mormon Characters) Date: 04 Jan 2001 16:55:06 -0700 Marsha, You expressed it better then I did, but I agree. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Alan MITCHELL, _Angel of the Danube_ (Review) Date: 05 Jan 2001 11:34:37 -0600 Author: Alan Rex Mitchell Title: Angel of the Danube Publisher: Bonneville Books Date of publication: 2000 Softcover Number of pages: 197 pp. Cost: $12.95 Reviewed by Ruth Starkman. _Angel of the Danube_ is the story of a recently returned missionary, Barry Monroe, who wanders about Southern California without much direction after serving a mission to Austria. An encounter with a Mormon patriarch in the Mojave Desert inspires Monroe to finish his missionary journal and he begins to recall his former life of service for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The first part of the novel relates the friendship between Elder Monroe and his Canadian companion, Vidic, whom he calls "Unts." Together they meet a woman several years older than they, Anna Magdalena, who tells them the story of the angel of the Danube, in which an angel warns the fishermen of the ancient Danube of a disastrous flood. This story presents to Elder Monroe a spiritual parallel to the Mormon worldview. Deeply moved, the protagonist replenishes his spiritual powers for the Sisyphian task of converting the Austrians, who, for their part, show little interest in his message, and when they do, they fall away very quickly. Once he is transferred to Vienna, however, the prophetic vision seems dampened. Elder Monroe becomes district leader for a group of young men, whose missionary life resembles more college-age Angst than the spiritual purity of church service. Indeed, described in laid-back California lingo the Vienna mission appears a life more realist than idealist, one replete with pranks, laziness, pinball playing, opera-going and manic prophetic grandstanding. Where _Angel of the Danube_ takes a few daring plunges in its representation of missionary everydayness, it remains nevertheless a very traditional coming of age and religious odyssey story. Most importantly, _Angel_ holds fast to its vision of faith. Doubt looms large in the endless gray of Vienna, with its baroque melancholy and strange, sometimes debauched customs. Will the _Book of Mormon_ ever be a big seller in Austria, where new wine is the main crop in the hilly countryside, Roman Catholicism, practiced or not, appears an inexorable destiny, and Fasching (carnival) lets everything all hang out? Probably not. Daunted by this reality, the young dirt-biker-dude-missionary still manages to reach people and sometimes share moments of religious epiphany. Were Elder Monroe's epiphanies not the best writing in the novel, such steadfast spirituality in the face of disappointment could have seemed trite, like the formulaic cant of the overly assured. This is not the case, due to the originality and genuine emotion of the epiphanies. Most are inspired by encounters with Austrian folklore, like the story of the angel of the Danube. Folkish figures from Charlemagne to a stone fox filled with gold provide an opportunity for Elder Monroe to extrapolate the meaning of humanity in God's universe. No less moving for him is his (slightly racy) visit to the opera with two Austrian girls, in which his attentions are focused less on his women escorts than on the spirit that inhabits the soprano's singing. Of course women aren't far from Elder Monroe's imagination as he struggles to remain chaste and begin to contemplate his future. In fact, it's his consternation over relationships that leaves him dazed and confused upon return to California. As Monroe begins to drift at home he uncovers the essential dilemma of modern life: its fundamental failure to bring meaning to the life of the individual. Faced with options that look deadening from all sides, transforming his missionary skills into empty salesmanship like a former acquaintance, bumming on the beach with surfers and freaks, mastering some pitiful niche like the UCLA professor whom he visits, or passing out at rock concerts like his babe of date--Monroe begins to feel lost. Such a benumbed life is not merely senseless and squalid, it's disenchanted, and the only thing that will "re-enchant" it, so to speak, is faith, that, and love. In the end, Elder Monroe finds both. And yet, this is where _Angel of the Danube_ gets a little shaky as well. At the very moment Elder Monroe and his newly discovered beloved are confessing their love for each other, the dialogue stumbles into somewhat stilted discussion of the church. Surely, the young and faithful would express their love as a shared religious commitment, but the dialogue here is clunky rather than warm-hearted and personal. There are a couple other minor bumps in the beginning and penultimate moments. But happily, _Angel of the Danube_ succeeds with a convincing and touching final image that entwines the folklore thread with a larger message of love. It's a great book. Unpretentious, funny and moving. I recommend it not only for missionaries returned from Vienna, but also for those interested in Austria from a unique perspective and those curious about the spiritual journey of a young Mormon missionary. Ruth Starkman - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 05 Jan 2001 10:44:55 -0700 I don't know about telepathy. But what about witchcraft? I just read a very interesting book about witchcraft, written by a witch. = Hereditary Witchcraft: Secrets of the Old Religion, by one Raven Grimassi. = Learned a lot. But let me tell you about my two grandmothers. My father's mother was Norwegian. We called her Bestemor. When my father = was very young, he remembers an annual trip to the 'woman of the woods.' = His mother would take him to visit the 'woman of the woods' and she would = perform a very elaborate ceremony. She'd take bits of string and measure = him, all sorts of esoteric measurements, like he'd hold his arms out and = she'd measure from index finger to index finger, and she'd measure his = head, and then she'd measure stuff like the circumference of his tongue, = stuff like that, and she'd cut the string to the appropriate length. Then = she took all these bits of string and burn them, and stir the ashes, and = then she'd make a kind of tea from the ashes, and then she'd read their = fortune in the tea leaves. This was an annual ceremony, taking place = mid-summer. My grandmother insisted that he and his sister, my aunt, = follow this ceremony. Now, in Grimassi's book of witchcraft, I read about this particular = ceremony, the summer string ceremony. It's listed as a kind of Italian = witchcraft. The 'woman in the woods' was a witch. And my grandmother was = an active member of the Church, one of the few active members in her small = town in Norway. So my grandmother was a member of the Church, and a veil = worker, and a believer in witchcraft. =20 So was my maternal grandmother, and especially my maternal great-grandmothe= r. Both of them read tea leaves, and both of them used tarot cards, and = both of them practiced palmistry. And both were very active in the Church = and temple workers and active in Relief Society. My father to this day = believes in palm reading. And both my grandmothers believed in other bits = of folk magick. Like the idea that cats will suck out the life of a = newborn child; stuff like that. =20 We're all of us very very uncomfortable with the notion that Joseph Smith = practiced folk magick, and that Lucy Mack Smith had some odd beliefs = relating to these kinds of practices. But we don't have to go very far = back in our history to find practices that are very very similar to = witchcraft. Personally, I think it's all very very interesting. I = certainly have colleagues who believe in the healing power of crystals and = similar things. I have an aunt who is a stock holder in the Jubilee mine, = which is one amazing piece of Mormon folklore. I just don't know that = Mormonism is all that far removed from folk religions. We're pretty = buttoned-down nowadays, we Mormon types, pretty staid. And I like knowing = that we have that wonderful strain of loopiness in our culture. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 05 Jan 2001 10:48:28 -0700 Jonathan Langford wrote: =20 > I think that an individual person's experience (male or female) in Sunday > School classes and other Church settings is likely to depend highly on th= e > particulars of that ward, that meeting, that teacher, etc. I've been in > classes--I'm in one right now--where comments seem to be welcome from > pretty much everyone (though I've heard comments from some class members > who get fed up with people, presumably such as myself, "interrupting" the > lesson with their comments). I've been in other classes where my comment= s > tended to bring on a kind of glassy-eyed response from the teacher--not I > think because they were particularly controversial, but because she didn'= t > know quite how to deal with them, since they weren't part of where she wa= s > planning to go with the lesson. Right now I teach Elder's Quorum a couple of times a month and I really welcome (indeed prefer) having all kinds of comments from the group. I'm lucky because the group I teach seems perfectly willing to participate. (I spent the last four years teaching 14=AD15 year old kids in Sunday School, an= d it took quite a while for them to feel comfortable enough to comment at any length). I've been in too many classes where the teacher seems determined to get to the end of the lesson no matter what. Comments are often brushed aside so that the next point can be made. I usually end up not commenting in these classes because (as has been mentioned by others) it takes me a while to formulate what I want to say. By the time I work it out, the teacher has moved on. My preference is to lead more of a group discussion. The majority of us hav= e been going to our meetings long enough that we've covered the ground that most lessons teach several times over. Instead of covering the area from point A to point Z again, I'd rather spend time at point C or D digging and getting a little under the surface. So in my class we get comments, comment= s to those comments, and then a few more comments, jokes, and scripture references from the quorum members. More often than not, the group hits mos= t of the points the lesson brings up before I get there. But now those points are made much more interesting because they're illuminated by stories and experiences members of the group have actually had, not by a quote from a manual. Anyway, I rarely get through more than about a third of the lesson, but I think I'm learning much more from these discussions that I would from the same lesson on charity or obedience I've been hearing since I was six. --Mike South - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 05 Jan 2001 10:48:55 -0700 Can we count movies? Robert Duvall's The Apostle. The Dreyer film Ordet. = And Babette's Feast. Plays? Ibsen's Brand and Peer Gynt. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 1 Date: 05 Jan 2001 11:11:25 -0700 Eric R. Samuelsen wrote > For now, I'd like to exclude films about angels from my genre. Heck, I can > define a genre any way I want to, and I don't like films about angels. Angels > in films always seem like something of a copout, and a somewhat sentimental > copout to boot, like we're afraid of real transcendence, and so let's cute > things up with a be-winged John Travolta smoking and belching at us in > Michael. Look no further than the Disney kiddie sport film Angels in the > Outfield, for example. Or that maudlin TV series starring Michael Landon/Roma > Downey. 'Nuff said. Sorry, couldn't help jumping in here. I think one possible exception to your exception might be Wim Wender's "Wings of Desire". The angels there were far from the "let-me-show-you-how-things-really-are-and-then-you'll-be-changed- for-the-better" bunch you mentioned. I think it even fits into your transcendence category well, though it does stop short. I think it could be argued that it is (as I recall -- it's been a few years since I've seen it) about someone moving from their first estate to their second estate (though not in the traditional way). About learning how much joy can be found in this life in spite of the pain. I haven't seen "City of Angels" (the American re-make) but I heard it really doesn't hold up well to the original. The sequel "Far Away, So Close" tried to expand the story and introduce a theme of sacrifice and redemption, but I found it a little clunky by the end and it didn't hold my interest the same way the first film did. --Mike South - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Irreantum E-mail Change Date: 05 Jan 2001 11:50:28 -0700 The e-mail address for the AML's Irreantum magazine has now officially changed to irreantum2@cs.com. The old address, irreant@cs.com, has been closed. You can use this e-mail address for anything related to the magazine, including letters to the editor, manuscript submissions or queries, and subscription change of address. -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 05 Jan 2001 12:54:03 -0800 (PST) > > Since moving back to > >Utah, there is no balance of thought in our > meetings. I miss that. I don't > >consider myself an intellectual, but I still feel > intellectually deprived. I've experienced the same thing since moving to Utah (and from Berkeley, too!), but I'm beginning to discover something . . . It's not that there are not articulate female thinkers in Utah. I think it has more to do with tradition in a ward and the way lessons are taught. I was asked to substitute teach Relief Society and I decided NOT to give the traditional (for this ward) all-preaching-no-questions lesson and instead came up with intriguing, interesting questions. The kind of questions that I want to answer in class. (I have been sleeping through the boring lessons so far. No questions asked, at least not any worth answering.) ANYWAY, surprise! There are intelligent, interesting women in this ward! I just never saw it because no one bothered to ask anything interesting and thus no one bothered to answer. I don't know how to change the problem since I am not a regular teacher. But it's enough to make me a little more daring about raising my hand and interrupting the more timid and boring teachers with a question about something that really MATTERS to me. Maybe if I do, more women will do so too, until we actually have discussions going regularly. ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 05 Jan 2001 14:50:28 -0700 Isn't this off topic? I could go on about my teaching approach and = experience in the Church, but I don't know what it has to do with = AML-List. [MOD: Perhaps I'm simply tolerating this because it takes off on a post I originally made...but it seems to me that patterns of discourse within Mormon culture is one of those peripheral but related topics--like, for example, telepathy and magic--which, while not a central part of AML-List's subject of Mormon literature, nevertheless has a logical connection to it. Now is probably a good time, though, to encourage all of us to nudge the focus back toward patterns of discourse (and their effect on Mormon letters) rather than getting into the pros and cons of various styles of gospel teaching. It's certainly appropriate, though, to point out that those different styles exist, and speculate about the possibilities for Mormon fiction of exploring tensions between such different styles of discourse...] -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 05 Jan 2001 14:52:13 -0700 Now that you mention films, _The Third Miracle_ with Ed Harris, released = not long ago, was a deep account of faith and religious experience. -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 05 Jan 2001 15:01:27 -0700 > I was asked to substitute teach >Relief Society and I decided NOT to give the >traditional (for this ward) all-preaching-no-questions >lesson and instead came up with intriguing, >interesting questions. Good for you! The best Sunday School teacher I ever had always started the class by bringing up something highly controversial. We'd all argue about it in class, then rush home after meetings to examine our Scriptures to find out what was the truth (well, actually, to find support for our own positions). The point was that we rushed home to examine our Scriptures. . . . barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 05 Jan 2001 15:46:38 -0700 Then there was "Elmer Gantry." Roy >>> "Eric R. Samuelsen" 01/05/01 10:48AM >>> Can we count movies? Robert Duvall's The Apostle. The Dreyer film Ordet. And Babette's Feast. Plays? Ibsen's Brand and Peer Gynt. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: plus two Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters Date: 05 Jan 2001 13:09:31 -0800 (PST) Jonathan Langford wrote: "I recall, for example, Bakhtin's theory of the novel, which, as well as I can explain (or indeed understand) it, talks of the novel as a space inhabited by many different voices, mediated perhaps but not necessarily under the control of the writer--indeed, to the degree that all the voices of the novel are the writer's voice in disguise, I believe Bakhtin would label the story not truly a novel at all. In a sense, the story becomes the occasion of the conversation between characters, in the Bakhtinian definition." ------ I would have to agree with Jonathan's rendering of Bakhtin's theory of the novel here. And as you might guess from what Jonathan wrote----Bakhtin has a rather narrow definition of what a 'true' novel is. Since very few authors are able to cede 'control' of the dialogue to their characters, there are very few true novelists. Dostoevsky, of course, is the prime example, and Bakthin obssesses over his work. Dickens is another author who manages this level of novel-ness. Looked at one way, Bakhtin's discussions of the novel don't offer a lot of hope for a great Mormon novel (by Mormon I mean simply one that features Mormon characters) written by a faithful Latter-day Saint author because (and some critics have already suggested this) the faithful Mormon writer won't be able to create that separation between him/her and the characters of his/her novel that is necessary to let a true, rich dialogue play out on the page---the author will be too invested in the project. And I kind of came to this conclusion after I first encountered Bakhtin's work---it feeds into that whole expatriate writer thing. The great authors critical of yet haunted by the beliefs/institutions they left behind. This is the whole spirit of the 'lost Generation' of Mormon authors-- Maureen Whipple, Virginia Sorensen etc. But then I got to go back to Bakhtin's prime example. I don't know that much about Dostoevsky, but I have read _The Brothers Karamazov_, and in that work I find that all the characters, heretical or faithful, are richly drawn, and beneath it all there is an affirmation of christian principles (and I'm sure that this conclusion too is up for debate). I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not sure that the expatriate writer could write a character like Alyosha---flawed, questioning, but full of faith and light. At the same time, Bakhtin's theory probably means that Mormon Characters can't be 'sheltered' for any reason from the demands of the novel. What I mean by 'sheltered' is what Jonathan and Terry have been hashing out: That if as a reader you (and I am) are looking for Mormon characters that are part of a vibrant novel ala Bakhtin's definition, then those characters need to be in a messy, open field (that is the novel) of dialogue rather than carefully placed into a narrative where every detail adds up to a symbolic whole (although, I like this kind of work also and think such works should be written and read). I don't know how well I've expressed myself (this is always a problem when Bakhtin gets introduced), so I'll try to end with a related point that might clarify things: Bakhtin believes that characters need to be open and engaged---they can not be static and closed-off. What I'm looking for are Mormon characters who are open and engaged, who participate in the central tensions of the gospel (for instance, the gap between the preached ideal and the lived real), who recognize are tempted by, perhaps even succumb to the evils of the world, but who maintain a hope in Christ and a trust in the plan of happiness. And I want to see these Mormon characters interact with (come into dialogue with) other richly drawn characters who don't share that same trust, but hurt, teach, befriend, repudiate, clash with the Mormon characters. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Turk325@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 05 Jan 2001 21:39:53 EST In a message dated 1/5/01 2:35:52 PM, daryoung@yahoo.com writes: << I don't know how to change the problem since I am not a regular teacher. But it's enough to make me a little more daring about raising my hand and interrupting the more timid and boring teachers with a question about something that really MATTERS to me. Maybe if I do, more women will do so too, until we actually have discussions going regularly. >> Track down the Ward Teacher Trainer. (I don't know the official name. I'm the [whatever] in our ward, but I don't know the name of the calling.) Offer your insights. Tell him or her exactly what you've written here. Encourage him or her to develop the teacher training. It can be done. Kurt Weiland. [MOD: See my earlier comment on Chris Bigelow's query regarding this thread. I don't want to cut off this discussion, but we need to make sure the focus gets back to a more literary connection.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 05 Jan 2001 19:29:56 -0500 I have moments of deja vu quite frequently. I find it disturbing to all of a sudden realize I'm living in a piece of a dream. About witchcraft. Wow. Talk about a can of worms. But is it really any different than the Chinese/Oriental/Astronomical type of things participated in by segments of our society? I've given a little more than a cursory glance to some of these disciplines. They seem to have some basis in results. Yet, it seems to me we are counseled as members to not participate, at least in those things considered occult. Something about the power of Satan to interfere with those channels. (I'd have to look it up.) It also occurred to me that the Lord has asked us to seek him for answers and direction in our lives. If we're consulting the stars, boards, sunlight through windows and so forth, we probably aren't listening too closely to the Holy Ghost. Just my opinion. Wouldn't even begin to make judgements about what happened so long ago. The world was a different place. The church was a different place. (I don't recall any related question on a temple rec. interview. Am I just forgetting one?) Tracie Laulusa - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 05 Jan 2001 17:51:59 -0700 My mother says there was a woman in the Southern Utah town=20 where she grew up who everyone referred to as a witch. I'm not=20 sure exactly what she did to earn the title, but my mom went to her=20 once to have her cure a wart on my mom's hand. The witch told=20 her to rub it with a potato, then throw the potato over her shoulder=20 as far as she could, and not watch where it landed. The wart=20 disappeared within a few days. About 15 years ago, the illuminaries of western folklore (Anthon S.=20 Cannon, Jan H. Brunvand, Austin E. and Alta S. Fife, Hector Lee, and William A. Watson) compiled a book called Popular Beliefs and=20 Superstitions from Utah. It's 500+ pages of short entries like "If a=20 woman eats a boiled egg on her wedding day, she will have a baby=20 girl within a year," with the date and location the belief was collected.= =20 Superstition and folk magic were part of American culture until about=20 WWII, but have since mostly been replaced with a belief in science. MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Alan MITCHELL, _Angel of the Danube_ (Review) Date: 05 Jan 2001 20:08:08 -0700 Ruth's review of my book is quite a compliment coming from a non-Mormon German professor. Also, by including my email address on the back cover, more comments are coming to me from non-members. All seem to "get" the book, and like readers everywhere, they all see it a little differently. Concerning Jerry Johnstone's review of Angel of the Danube in the DNews, in which he basically said it's a great book but nobody will buy it. Why? Not because it's racy, which it isn't, or predictable, which it isn't, but because it doesn't meet the IMAGE we have engraven (my metaphor). I hope for the sake of others writing missionary fiction that the genre is successful. The Missionary genre has two things to offer the reader: 1. a protagonist that really changes, and 2. a glimpse into another culture(s). I hope the editors reviewing Chris Bigalow's book will see the possibilites. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 2 Date: 05 Jan 2001 17:49:40 -0700 > Still, it's an interesting genre, and one that we Mormon types > should find of particular relevance. Of course, _God's Army_ would > also fit the genre. Does anyone else have any nominees? I like Field of Dreams. And Flatliners. And Last of the Mohicans (in spite of that silly scene behind the waterfall that is almost faithfully mimiced in MI:2). The Truman Show. The Matrix. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Writing Class with Rachel Nunes Date: 08 Jan 2001 11:07:02 -0600 ArialI am teaching a writing class in conjunction with UVSC's Continuing Education department. Please pass this excerpt from the UVSC brochure to interested parties. Thank you, Rachel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pathway to Publishing Learn what it takes to be a successful author with Rachel Nunes, the best-selling author of ten books including the _Ariana_ series. Rachel will take you from the first step of finding an idea and writers' block all the way through dialogue, descriptions, and characterization. Course instructor will personally critique short samples of students' writing. Class is limited to 15. PG-010G-81 $39 ($5.00 off if registered early) 8:00-9:00 p.m. Wednesdays beginning Jan. 31st - Mar 7th (6 sessions) Pleasant Grove Jr High To Register: UVSC 227-2448 or 227-2449 or 222-8012 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 05 Jan 2001 17:38:47 -0700 Scott Parkin: > John Irving's _A Prayer for Owen Meany_ is arguably the most > straight-forward, non-affected story I've ever read about one > character's search for the basis of religion or spirituality or > whatever it is that lives below the level of specific creed. This is also my first choice. I've read the book twice and found it to be a thrilling read both times. Once I picked up a copy in Barnes & Noble and read the last few pages and stood there crying in the store. I don't think anybody noticed. And I want to mention two films that I have seen quite recently. This touches on another thread -- Eric Samuelsen's Transcendant Films. First, I agree with everything that Eric said about "Gladiator." After seeing it the first time my reaction was, This is not an action film. Sure, it starts with a bang, and has a few more bangs later on, but as soon as that first battle is over with we go into twenty minutes or more of exposition, character development and some rather elegiac scenes involving prayer and visions and figurines. And these scenes are sprinkled in throughout as well. This is one of the most spiritual films I've seem in awhile. Another is "Return to Me." I'm not sure that this would fit into Eric's new film genre because it is not very dark and it is what is typically called a romantic comedy. But that term doesn't do this film justice at all. Directed by, co-written by and costarring Bonnie Hunt, this is a very spiritual film. It is decidedly Catholic; both Irish and Roman. There are some film making techniques used to symbolize the presence -- the watchful eye -- of God (most notably the opening shot). There is a quiet moment as Grace (yes, Grace) examines the scar on her chest wherein her physical attitude is identical to the iconic Madonna. My favorite thing about all of this is that none of this is what the story is about. We talk alot on this list about writing about Mormons without making the Momonness of the Mormons the focal point of the story. Well, here it is. I think it's fabulous. (As a side note, every friend of mine who has seen it says that the Bonnie Hunt/Jim Belushi relationship reminds them very much of my wife and me. Not too far from the truth actually.) J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 05 Jan 2001 22:41:56 -0700 On Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:51:06 +0900, Andrew Hall wrote: >Time for another Andrew's poll. >This month I'd like to ask everyone: >What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about >faith and/or religion? >What was it about it/them that you liked? Jan Karon's Mitford series is wonderful. The main character is an Episcopalian priest; the stories are about his life, and the lives of the people in the small town of Mitford. What caught me, from the beginning, was the protagonist's belief in God and his straightforward way of = praying about the difficulties he faces both in his professional and private = life. The books are funny and heartwarming and entertaining, and I like seeing = how another religion operates. My all-time favorite of this kind of book--one I re-read frequently--is Rumer Godden's _In This House of Brede_. It's set in an English = monastery for Benedictine nuns, covering a time period of about ten or twelve = years. The main character is a businesswoman who converts to Catholicism late in life, but the book has so many more plots and characters that it's really about monastic life and devotion, and the different ways in which faith works on human lives. Very good read. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 2 Date: 05 Jan 2001 23:54:08 -0700 On Tue, 02 Jan 2001 10:52:09 -0700, Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: >Still, it's an interesting genre, and one that we Mormon types should = find of particular relevance. Of course, _God's Army_ would also fit the= genre. Does anyone else have any nominees? A few other transcendent = films I can think of might include _Raising Arizona_, _The Hudsucker = Proxy_, _Places in the Heart_, I suppose the Star Wars films (though they= do it quite badly), _Being John Malkovich_, maybe _Heaven Can Wait_, = _Ghost_=20 >(gag). _The Sixth Sense_, maybe, though I'd kind of like to declare = horror flicks out of bounds, along with angel flicks. After all, I'm = defining the genre here, and can make up the rules as I go along. Anyone= have suggestions to make? In any case, here are a bunch of films doing,= in part, what we've argued Mormon artists could and perhaps should do; = deal directly and openly with religious issues. Some are successful, = some aren't. What lessons can we learn? I have some ideas, but I'll save= them for another column. Um. I wanted to say _High Fidelity_ and _Castaway_, and in fact wrote a couple paragraphs on why I liked them. But it seems on reflection that there needs to be some, I don't know, supernatural? element required for your genre. That being the case, I could add _The Matrix_ and _Dark = City_ if you'll allow Sci. Fi. trappings for the supernatural. If you are, you might as well throw in _Contact_, but I can't think why except that it = wants to be transcendent. _Mystery Men_ is fun, but you'll have to accept The Sphinx as a supernatural agent to fit it into your category. _Chicken = Run_ if your vision of the afterlife is free-range chickens. I liked your = pick of Babe II. I thought it was better than the first one, though darker. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 01 Jan 2001 11:47:22 -0700 Barbara, how fortunate you are to live in such a diverse and interesting ward. Moving for me is not an option. Thus I read the List, _National Review,_ _The Weekly Standard,_ _Independent Women's Forum,_ and I do theater and associate with actors and artists. Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 01 Jan 2001 11:47:29 -0700 Eric, when you talk about *loopiness in our culture* I think about my grandfather. He was born in 1852 England, came to this country with his parents, joined the church and practiced medicine in Cache Valley. He was active in the church, practiced polygamy and married my grandmother, the daughter of an apostle. He read constantly and was interested in psychology, palmistry, astrology, and read the stars and horoscopes. He named my mother Karma. He studied with a man who read his oldest daughter's horoscope and predicted that something terrible would happen to her. This caused my grandfather some paranoia and he obsessively tried to protect her. She was not allowed to date like her sisters unless she was chaperoned by one of her brothers. This overprotection caused her great unhappiness. She didn't marry until her father was long gone and she was too old to have children. Grandfather made house calls in a horse and buggy until the invention of the automobile and he owned one of the first cars in Logan. He learned to speak German and went to Germany to specialize in ear, nose and throat. He returned home on the Maritania, the sister ship to the Lusitania that was sunk during W.W.I. He told my mother about being chased by a submarine. By darkening the ship and moving off course the Maritania was saved. I wish I had known my grandfather; he must have been an interesting man. Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 01 Jan 2001 11:47:33 -0700 I see lots of church members with their noses to the grindstone living joyless lives. I believe we have a mandate to figure out how to *be happy* in THIS life, not just in the hereafter. In the 70's I read _Celebrate the Temporary_ by Clyde Reid. The concepts were not profound, but they changed my life. My brother complains bitterly about relatives deeply involved in searching out their kindred dead and doing family history, but who wouldn't put themselves out to spend time with their living relatives. Other books with this theme are: Bernard Gunther. _What to Do Till the Messiah Comes_ Edwin M. McMahon and Peter A. Campell. _Please Touch_ Alan W. Watts. _The Wisdom of Insecurity_ Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film Date: 06 Jan 2001 00:52:54 -0700 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > The first film is what I might call Transcendence Lite. _What Dreams May Come_ > Still and all, I found the film quite irritating at times. For one thing, Sciorra's character is an artist, and Williams' afterlife is set in her paintings. This results in a kind of pretty pastel heaven, and I spent most of the film convinced that it was actually hell, and that that was going to be the big plot twist: he thinks he's in heaven, but actually he's not. I'm sort of an art snob, and I thought the film made heaven look, well, tacky. One man's tacky is another man's heaven. You make it sound like all of heaven was a pretty pastel painting. But that was just the psychological construct Robin Williams put around himself when he first entered heaven. And a very appropriate one, I think, since his thoughts were very heavy on his artist wife at the time. As Williams grew in heaven, his perception of heaven grew and became more sophisticated. I was quite pleased with this film's depiction of the afterlife in comparison to other films. But most depictions are cheesy, tacky, or ridiculously simplistic. I would include your vaunted _Gladiator_ in this. I enjoyed very much the complex and provocative depiction of the afterlife in _What Dreams May Come_, even if it didn't all agree with my theological leanings. > Theologically, I found the film very troubling. Sciorra's character's journey is horrific. Her children die in one awful accident. Unable to deal with her grief, she's briefly institutionalized, but finally begins to recover, in large measure because of the love and support of her husband. Then he's killed. She can't deal with it, and she commits suicide. The notion of hell being a mental state of one's own creation was powerfully depicted; she gets to live, eternally, in the state of anguish in which she died. Where's God in all this? Where's the atonement? Where's even the simplest human compassion? Okay, Robin Williams is able to go to her and save her, and it all works out. But the film strongly suggests that that sort of hubby-intervention is rare; that most people in her situation don't get rescued. Ever. What an appalling thought. What a despicable theology. As you describe it, I would agree: it's a despicable theology. But all it takes is one crank of the type-and-shadow mill, and you can make it fit very nicely. All you have to do is look at the Robin Williams character as a Christ figure, then you do have God, the atonement, and compassion, just like the real plan of salvation. We all were doomed by our choices in this life, and would have remained in that state of anguish we call hell, even though it was not remotely fair that we do. And there was no one who could save us from that predicament. No one had done it, no one could do it, until our Christ figure came along and did it. Robin Williams redeemed his wife (and by symbolic proxy, all the rest of us) by sacrificing himself: he was willing to descend into hell and stay there if necessary. > Mostly I think it's an artistic and theological failure. In part it fails because its depiction of transcendence is too specific, too literal. Good transcendence is more mysterious, or perhaps depicted more symbolically. I think it's a cop-out to depict transcendence symbolically. Or I should say, I think it's a cop-out to insist that transcendence should _only_ be depicted symbolically, since there are many wonderful symbolic depictions that I don't want to disparage. The literalism of LDS theology is one of the things that outraged the rest of Christendom. But it's part and parcel of our theology, so I don't think we should shrink away from it. I love efforts to try to "get it right" when it comes to literal depictions of transcendence, even if the effort doesn't entirely succeed, even when I don't agree with the results, even when we all acknowledge that there's probably a zero chance that any of us will truly get it right. Transcendent eternity is real, it's out there, it _is_ literal, so why should we shrink from its literalism? I admire the courageous artist who doesn't. > The next film I'd like to discuss is my personal favorite film of 2000, and perhaps the best example of transcendent filmmaking I've seen in awhile. Ridley Scott's _Gladiator_ was marketed as a big, brawny action flick, WWF filmmaking at its tackiest. I found it utterly transcendent. I enjoyed _Gladiator_ and thought it was a fantastic film, but I wouldn't have classified it as a primarily transcendent film, let alone the best. I didn't even remember the blatantly transcendent parts until you mentioned them. (But that's partially a function of having seen it only once. I usually have to see a film at least twice before I start remembering it well.) Certainly the transcendence is there, but I didn't think it was a central enough part of the theme to declare this the best example of a transcendent film. >_The Sixth Sense_, maybe, though I'd kind of like to declare horror flicks out of bounds, along with angel flicks. I'd go along with excluding horror flicks, but why does that exclude _Sixth Sense_? That film is horror in only a superficial way: there are ghosts. It follows no other conventions of horror films. >In any case, here are a bunch of films doing, in part, what we've argued Mormon artists could and perhaps should do; deal directly and openly with religious issues. Some are successful, some aren't. What lessons can we learn? Probably the most important lesson to start with is the one you already brought up: Mormons should be doing them too. Others aren't afraid to make religious films these days: it would appear that the phase in the film industry where religion was frowned upon is fading. How about if we grow up and stop being afraid of being who we are to the rest of the world? While we've been sitting around wondering if New York publishers will ever accept Mormon characters in fiction, Richard Dutcher went out and made a sublimely Mormon film with no punches held, and it did just fine, thank you. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 06 Jan 2001 01:02:51 -0700 Since this topic has migrated over from another list, I'm going to copy my response from there so I don't have to rewrite the whole thing. My apologies to those who already read it on the other list. =========== I think we use telepathy every time we pray. How else can God hear unspoken prayers? And we have several examples in the scriptures of prophets knowing the thoughts of other people. But all that is through the power of God, you say, and not any telepathic powers of man. Okay, I'll buy that. God is telepathic. But doesn't LDS theology teach us that we are the same race as God? If God is telepathic, then so must we be. We don't seem to be telepathic, I believe, because that trait is too underdeveloped in us to be noticeable, being embryonic forms of the race of the Gods (how many two-month-old infants can do calculus?) We need the extra oomph of God's fully developed telepathy to make ours work. I believe the techniques we are taught to have efficatious prayers and to be in tune with the Spirit are really techniques to enhance our telepathic abilities. In other words, faith is necessary for prayer, revelation, and miracles, because faith is the state of mind that activates our psychic abilities. I think the fact that people find it easy to believe in psychic abilities and seem to have that "sixth sense" and all, is because we _do_ have psychic abilities that are in an embryonic state where they are barely noticeable, and not quite scientifically verifiable. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 06 Jan 2001 10:47:18 -0700 Konnie, I agree with you as telepathy being a gift of the spirit. I have always had that gift--knowing things before they happen like phone calls, people needing assistance, avoidance of accidents, etc.--and I have tried to recognize it as such. I can't control when I will "know" or what I will "know" so I accept it and try to act appropriately and in a thankful manner. It's the gift that first introduced me to the gosepl when as I small child I met the missionaries and "knew" someday I would find out more about their church even though my parents weren't interested. It's the gift that told me the day I met my husband that I would marry him. It's the gift that took me directly to the two children I just adopted. It's the same gift that told me when various of my family memebrs would pass into the next life. The gift doesn't always bring happy news, but it always brings comfort to my soul. Lu Ann - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Valerie Holladay Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 06 Jan 2001 10:19:25 -0800 (PST) > What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about > faith and/or religion? > What was it about it/them that you liked? *Saint Maybe,* by Anne Tyler. Ian Bedloe is a teenager who is arguably responsible for the deaths of his brother and sister-in-law. Looking for comfort, he happens upon the Church of the Second Chance. He hears singing and slips inside, then stays to speak with the preacher. When Ian tells him how sorry he is and asks if he's forgiven, the preacher says "No, of course not," and proceeds to tell him what he must do to be forgiven. Ian drops out of school, apprentices himself to a carpenter, and cares for his brother's three children. To quote one review since I can't do it justice: "The story is an interesting examination of organized religion, faith, and the roles they play in one's life. I particularly liked the characters' examinations of religion- from Agatha's skepticism to Ian's almost blind faith. Although all of Anne Tyler's books are virtual masterpieces, choose to read this one if you like to think about religion, faith, and all the questions which have no answers." The sympathetic view of a conservative, fundamentalist believer caught some critics by surprise, according to reviews I read. Anyway, you can't go wrong with Anne Tyler. Also Card's short story "West" which I think was reprinted in an LDS collection under another name. *The Bronze Bow* by Elizabeth George Speare, about Daniel, a young Jewish boy in the time of Christ, whose father is crucified for not paying taxes and his mother dies of exposure from waiting at the cross with him. His younger sister saw everything and now won't leave the house or speak. When Daniel hears Jesus teach, he's torn between his teachings and those of the rebels he's been hiding out with. There's a scene between Daniel and an exhausted but still loving Jesus that is my favorite portrayal of the Savior in fiction. And last, a note for Andrew. Anne Tyler also has a book about the artist's conflict with "real life" and its intrusions, which made me think that favorite books on the artist/writer's life might be an interesting idea for another poll. Valerie Holladay __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 06 Jan 2001 12:47:54 -0600 I agree with Eric on _Babette's Feast_. It's one of my five favorite movies, dealing with questions on the basis of faith and religion and their effects on the lives of ordinary (if slightly eccentric) people. It's beautifully filmed and acted - an all around wonderful movie. I recently read Rudolfo Anaya's _Bless Me, Ultima_. Among other things it's about a young Hispanic boy in New Mexico after WWII and the religious-cultural tensions in his life (Catholicism-shamanism). I'd pigeon-holed Anaya as a popular mystery writer, so was very pleasantly surprised by the unexpected depth of his treatment of the nature of faith. While the book isn't on my list of all-time favorites, not even for the limited category of Andrew's poll, I think it's still a very interesting, well-written, enjoyable book. My favorite book dealing with religion is still _The Brothers Karamazov_, followed closely by _Anna Karenina_. The last two fall semesters I've been invited to spend a week lecturing our 19th-century Intellectual Thought (as opposed to unintellectual thought?) class on _Crime and Punishment_. (Yes, I'm still an economist, but the honors college is interdisciplinary, and I'm the closest thing we have to a Slavicist on the faculty.) It's a fine book, of course, but I'm lobbying to have them replace it with _The Brothers K._ next year. I realize the book has launched a thousand theses and dissertations, but it's much better than that factoid would suggest. I think that _Anna Karenina_ is the better book (and Tolstoy the better writer), but Dostoyevsky tackles the problems of suffering, faith, religion and power with the same gusto that Tolstoy reserves for the problem of history (did I say Tolstoy was the better writer? not when he's tackling the theory of history in _War and Peace_). The story doesn't move me the way _Anna K._ does, but Dostoyevsky draws you into a spirited intellectual discussion on his religious views, while Tolstoy embeds his in the fabric of his story. Both are wonderful. I can think of a number of other non-LDS books and stories on religion and faith that are, in my opinion, excellent. _One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich_ (Solzhenitsyn) is simultaneously depressing and uplifting, as is _Cancer Ward_. Bulgakov is riotously funny and thought-provoking when he weaves together his satire on Stalinism and his story of Christ in _The Master and Margarita_. Gene Wolffe's SF series on Severian the torturer is a type of Christ story (it drips with Christian symbolism, especially _The Urth of the New Sun_), the best SF writing I've ever encountered (though some friends find the style excessively Gothic and excruciatingly erudite). I definitely _don't_ like Oscar Wilde in religious mode (his stories pull all the right strings and wrest the occasional tear from my dry and beady eyes, but they leave me feeling manipulated, and they really are saccharine). I thought it might be interesting to hear about the religious stories that people here don't like, but I realize in my case that would be an invitation to a rant, and a very long one at that, so now I stop. Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: plus two Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 06 Jan 2001 18:20:54 -0800 (PST) --- "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > We're all of us very very uncomfortable with the > notion that Joseph Smith practiced folk magick, and > that Lucy Mack Smith had some odd beliefs relating > to these kinds of practices. But we don't have to > go very far back in our history to find practices > that are very very similar to witchcraft...I just don't know that Mormonism is all that far > removed from folk religions. We're pretty > buttoned-down nowadays, we Mormon types, pretty > staid. And I like knowing that we have that > wonderful strain of loopiness in our culture. I just ran across a great example of this in Cracroft and Lambert's anthology of Mormon Literature _A Believing People_. The excerpts they include from Priddy Meeks' diary (1795-1886) are filled with references to folk magic and witchcraft. Meeks provides a whole section that details the differences between foul spirits and witches, the uses of peepstones etc. My favorite line is where Meeks says : "Seer stones, or peepstones, as they are more commonly called, was very plenty around Parowan, I rather being a gifted person in knowing a peepstone when seeing one altho I had never found one yet that I could see in" (153, italics mine). This same Meeks ended up in Orderville (where some of my own ancestors come from) and took part in the experiment of living the United Order there. I read this Meeks account with high interest last November because I had begun a short story last summer about a man returning to a post-apocalyptic Orderville. The man, an LDS historian, has been forced to use 'alternative' means of doing history because the 'normal' sources for history were no longer available to him. I didn't begin the story with all that background in mind---it started with the image of an old man leaning in to a dust devil and inhaling---but it has been quite a pleasure to see that the direction I had been taking the images/narrative has Mormon-historical resonance. This thread on Telepathy and Witchcraft (and Eric's post in particular) has further confirmed things. Cool. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: [AML] Robert William Ernest (Salt Lake Tribune) Date: 06 Jan 2001 12:10:06 (GMT) Salt Lake Tribune Article: http://www.sltrib.com/2001/jan/01042001/utah/utah.htm Rhyme -- and a Reason BY MARK EDDINGTON THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE PROVO -- Robert William Ernest is well-versed in life. Family, friends, even the sparrows feeding outside his dining room window are fair game for a poem. So are sunrises, sunsets and quiet afternoons with grandchildren or with Shirley, his wife of 30 years. "He's written well over 2,000 poems," Shirley says. "Sometimes three or four a day." What is remarkable about the 82-year-old "poet laureate" of Edgemont, in northeast Provo, is that almost all of his verse has been written in the past eight years. Why did he wait so long to pick up a pen? "I didn't have anything to say," Robert says, shrugging. But, in 1993, the retired roofing salesman suddenly felt a need to jot down his thoughts and feelings. A year later, Robert was diagnosed with prostate cancer and decided he better get busy on his life story. He ruled out a traditional journal filled with traditional prose, choosing instead the rhythm and rhyme of poetry. This snippet of metered verse tells the reasons behind his belated biography: "I'll stamp the earth, so men may say, There's his track. He passed this way . . . That person doth history highly prize: Who documents life, prior to demise." What emerged in 1994 was Autobiographical Verse, a self-published book containing Robert's life in rhyme. Poems depicting his boyhood years in Minnesota are in the book. So are many adventures, including his teen-age trek up the then-unfinished face of Mount Rushmore. Poems about hunting and fishing, World War II, grandchildren and myriad more topics round out the collection. The central character in much of his work, though, is Shirley. Sparks flew between the couple right from the start in 1968, when he saw her wading through knee-deep water during an electrical fire at a Brigham City bed factory. He oversaw the plant; she was a welder. They married in 1970 and their relationship has ripened ever since -- while living in Southern California, serving an LDS Church mission in Sweden, and now in retirement in their Edgemont subdivision. "We light each other's lamps," Robert says. Family and friends can read all about their romance in Love Poems, yet another of Robert's published volumes: "The 'life-weaver' smiles On a love that is true, And I wrap myself, warmly, In the 'fabric of you.' " Shirley is Robert's most devoted critic. She also acts as his editor and gussies up his literary gems on the computer with calligraphy, Chinese brush strokes and pictures she has taken in their world travels. "The poetry has been such a blessing, because it brings us together," Robert says. "We are a good team." Says Shirley: "I'm his No. 1 fan." Maybe so, but she is not the only one. While no one will mistake Robert for the second coming of Whitman or a budding Browning, this late-blooming wordsmith has touched hearts from Provo to Paris and points in between, thanks to admirers and far-flung friends who pass around his poems. True, the verse that springs from Robert's untrained hand is sentimental and simple -- probably too much so for more serious poets and pundits -- but his sweet sonnets satisfy the tastes of a growing number of regular folk. "It's sentimental poetry, the kind many people enjoy because it speaks comfortably to them in a familiar cadence," says Jacqueline Thursby, Brigham Young University folklorist and assistant English professor. "His poetry speaks to the masses . . . not to academics. He puts into words things with which we are all familiar, and does it in an artistic way -- without being complicated or abstract." A Minnesota woman was so taken with Robert's poetry that she recently sent the Ernests a $5,000 check with a letter asking them to use the money and find a publisher. The couple don't envision turning a profit from Robert's rhyme, but the donation provided the means to publish the poems and attract a larger audience. During the past year, they have selected 78 of Robert's poems with the most universal appeal to include in the book. For instance, there is this tidbit about a neighbor whose wife died of Alzheimer's: I took my sweetheart by the hand, And gently led her down the stair. She let me comb a wayward strand, And tie a ribbon in her hair. She let me feed her with a spoon, And, once or twice, my darling smiles. The soul mate of my honeymoon, Has now become my precious child. My face is one she does not know. My name is one she cannot say. My angel's eyes have lost their glow. The girl I love has slipped away. For Robert, his obsession to make his mark through poetry is about freedom. Cancer surgery and Parkinson's disease keep him from engaging in pursuits he once enjoyed. But there is no limit to what he can do with the pen. "[Writing] is cheaper than therapy," he jokes. "I hope to stay alive and keep writing -- in that order." Shirley and his mushrooming circles of readers couldn't have said it better. e-mail: meddington@sltrib.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: RE: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 06 Jan 2001 19:10:55 -0600 At 19:29 05-01-01 -0500, "Tracie Laulusa" wrote: >I have moments of deja vu quite frequently. I find it disturbing to all of >a sudden realize I'm living in a piece of a dream. > >About witchcraft. Wow. Talk about a can of worms. But is it really any >different than the Chinese/Oriental/Astronomical type of things participated >in by segments of our society? I've given a little more than a cursory >glance to some of these disciplines. They seem to have some basis in >results. Yet, it seems to me we are counseled as members to not >participate, at least in those things considered occult. Something about >the power of Satan to interfere with those channels. (I'd have to look it >up.) It also occurred to me that the Lord has asked us to seek him for >answers and direction in our lives. If we're consulting the stars, boards, >sunlight through windows and so forth, we probably aren't listening too >closely to the Holy Ghost. Just my opinion. Wouldn't even begin to make >judgements about what happened so long ago. The world was a different >place. The church was a different place. (I don't recall any related >question on a temple rec. interview. Am I just forgetting one?) Sensitive spot here: "Astronomical" refers to the _scientific_ study of the stars. The corresponding term relating to attempts to forecast the future, etc, would be "astrological." As I will be pointing out next week when classes begin, these are some of the differences: (1) There are around five to ten times as many so-called "professional astrologers" in the U.S. as professional astronomers. (2) _Astronomers_ can tell you about how the Universe came to be and how life came to exist on Earth. _Astrologers_ can tell you about _important_ things, like how to get more love and money. (3) _Astronomers_ are mostly employed by universities and as such make about what any low-level faculty member makes (with luck, after a few years, they can work up to a pittance) for teaching classes during the day and observing all night. _Astrologers_ appear on late-night infomercials and charge $3.99 a minute to answer questions over the phone. (4) If "psychic astrologers" really could tell the future, why can't any of the actors that appear on their infomercials get a real job? -- Ronn! :) -- Ronn Blankenship Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science University of Montevallo Montevallo, AL Standard Disclaimer: Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions stated herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the official position of the University of Montevallo. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 06 Jan 2001 19:46:37 -0800 (PST) --- Christopher Bigelow wrote: > Isn't this off topic? I could go on about my > teaching approach and experience in the Church, but > I don't know what it has to do with AML-List. > Speaking of teaching approaches and Mormon lit., I just can't find a short story to equal Chandler's "Benediction" for affectionate satire of Mormon Gospel Doctrine teaching methods. I envy those of you who have yet to read it for the first time--absolute delight! ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Signature Books Announces Management Change: Signature Books News Release Date: 06 Jan 2001 21:48:20 -0600 News Release 2Jan01 A4 [From Mormon-News] Signature Books Announces Management Change SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- The start of a new foundation by Signature Books publisher George D. Smith has led to a management change at the academic Mormon publisher. Longtime Signature associate publisher Gary Bergara will become the managing director of the new Smith-Pettit Foundation, and the associate publisher position will be filled by Bergara's associate and collaborator Ron Priddis, until now the company's marketing director. The new foundation was formed to foster research in Mormon history and in other related areas, and owns two-thirds of Signature Books. The other third is owned by Signature's publisher, George D. Smith, through a holding company that also owns and renovates historic houses in downtown Salt Lake City. In his new position, Priddis will act as primary editor for the manuscripts that Signature Books publishes and manage the workflow in the office. He will be replaced as marketing director by Tom Kimball, an industry veteran who has worked at both Deseret Book and at used and rare book dealer Benchmark Books. Kimball was most recently involved in the start-up of leatherbound collectible publisher Greg Kofford Books. Source: Changes at Signature: Good Bye to Gary, Hello to Tom Signature Books News Release 2Jan01 A4 http://www.signaturebooksinc.com/news.htm >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 06 Jan 2001 21:51:40 -0700 I think that the mystery is that we moderns put ourselves into such a literal factual world. We miss the reality that our universe runs on energy--I mean spiritual energy. Although I don't pretend to understand much of the mathematics involved, I have read a little about quantum physics, at least the popular rendering of the concepts, which give me to understand that energy and matter are both malleable, that one can turn into the other, that one can influence the other. In my training as a hands-on bodyworker (and --I'll dare to say-- healer) I see frequent "miracles" of energy acting on and changing the condition of a person's body. That's why I always say that just about every condition--chronic and acute--has an emotional/spiritual component, which needs to be addressed one way or another if a person's going to get better. I am convinced that we humans are very very good at "reading" and understanding energy, even though we moderns tend to dismiss our perceptions. As I work with people--clients, students, what-have-you--I try to help them pay attention to those things they really already "know." Somewhere I read that Orson Scott Card said that he's only telling stories with his books, not describing real phenomena. Yet when I read about young Alvin healing himself and others, when a woman puts on a spell of attractiveness (or unattractiveness), when people move through and around time (like Alvin running in the forest in "greentime"), --so many things--for me it's quite literal. Recently I read in Card's _Enchantment_ that the "witches" could tell someone had been in a place, for good or ill, by the feeling and the smell of it. Again, literally real stuff. That's how tracking is done, at least partly (I style myself as an amateur, hardly-to-be-counted tracker in this way; I can "follow" an energy trail sometimes. Once I found a missing teenager that way). Of course, I always think of these things in perspective of the larger picture: our Heavenly Parents are absolutely perfect in these intuitive skills, whether we call them magic or not. Our puny mortal skills are a good try, but nothing to brag about. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 1 Date: 08 Jan 2001 07:57:29 -0700 Mike South wrote, about Angel films and Transcendence: >I think one possible exception to your >exception might be Wim Wender's "Wings of Desire". The >angels there were = far >from the "let-me-show-you-how-things-really-are-and-then-you'll->be-change= d-for-the-better" bunch you mentioned. Yes. Absolutely. I'd forgotten Wings of Desire, but it's a marvelous = film, and very close to the kind of transcendence I've noticed in others = of these films. And the remake, the recent City of Angels doesn't hold up = in comparison. I'd also forgotten another favorite film of mine, Field of Dreams. It = certainly suggests the existence of some kind of afterlife. It's very New = Agey. But it's also about baseball. Kevin Costner's okay in it, but Amy = Madigan is absolutely spectacular. What a marvelous actress. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 08 Jan 2001 08:11:29 -0700 Mike Austin wrote: >Superstition and folk magic were part of American culture until >about = WWII, but have since mostly been replaced with a belief >in science. Would that it were so. I don't see it, personally. I think folk magick = (which I'm spelling that way because that's how the guy spells it in the = witch book which so intrigued me), is very much alive. =20 Check out the ads for psychics on late night TV. Check out the success of = astrologers. The Jubilee mine is still very much in operation, and its = stockholders still think they're going to get rich at the time of the = Second Coming. And then look at the continued success of the Creationist = lobby. I mean, I'm the Gospel Doctrine teacher in my ward, and I'm not = willing to stand up in class and say that I believe that the world isn't = six thousand years old, but four and a half billion, or that organic = evolution is a principle I consider compatible with the restored gospel. = I believe those things, but I don't dare say them, because I know what the = reaction of my ward members would be. =20 There's a new book which a friend of mine told me he bought and read, but = which I haven't yet seen. New and old--it was written back in the = thirties, and is only now being published. It's about Mormonism and = Science and it's by a guy named Sterling (or Spencer) Talmage--my friend = couldn't quite remember the first name. Anyway, the author was the son of = James E. Talmage, and the book is a series of discussions of various = issues relating to Mormonism and science. Here's the thing; it was = originally intended as a manual for Priesthood/RS back in the thirties. = Imagine that--a whole year's worth of lessons on a subject like science = and religion. Okay, it didn't happen, but that it was even contemplated = back then boggles the mind. Think that would get through correlation = nowadays? I don't think so. I don't think I'm overstating this; even = today, in the Church, there exists a tremendous hostility towards science. = Well, actually, maybe that is too strong. Call it a love/hate relationshi= p. Anyway, this whole magick question has tremendous relevance to us as LDS = writers. I'd love to see someone incorporate some of this stuff into = their writing. I certainly plan to. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 2 Date: 08 Jan 2001 10:01:51 -0700 Cast Away (which I saw in Moab over the weekend) came pretty close. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious literature Date: 09 Jan 2001 03:37:36 +0900 Thanks for everyone's answers, you reminded me of some good books I've=20 loved, and some books and films that I'd now like to investigate. LuAnn mentioned Lloyd Douglas's "The Robe". I also first encountered the=20 story through the Richard Burton movie, when I was about 10. I got the=20 book, and read it at least once a year from ages 10 to 17 (I didn=81ft like= =20 the film much anymore). It did a lot to shape my teenage consciousness of= =20 what a Christ-like life is. I also liked Douglas's "The Big Fisherman" and= =20 "Magnificent Obsession," although I kind of assume they would be a bit too= =20 sentimental for me these days. "A Prayer for Owen Meaney" (my favorite Irving book), and Tolstoy's "Anna=20 Karenina" and "Resurrection" are also very high on my favorite books list. = =20 I would also add Dostoevsky's "The Brother s Karamazov," which is a great=20 symphony of a novel. Ivan's "Grand Inquisitor" chapter is one of the great= =20 pieces of writing about religion ever (a discussion group we are in will be= =20 tackling it this week), but that is only one of a bundle of great sections,= =20 for example the 'Alyosha and the children' chapters. Anyway, more recommendations are welcome. My next poll will be on the best= =20 Mormon literature of the past year. So read those books you got over=20 Christmas! Andrew Hall _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters (was: CARD, _Lost Boys_) Date: 08 Jan 2001 11:21:50 -0700 On Thu, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:46:58PM -0600, Jonathan Langford wrote: > I'm not really arguing that _Lost Boys_ is a novel in the Bakhtinian sense. > But I think that the central *dramatic* event of the story (the death of > the family's son and his return as a ghost)--the resolution of which is > not, Terry complains, related to the Mormonness of the characters in a way > that justifies that Mormonness--is not really the heart of the story Card > is trying to tell. The center of the novel is the Mormon family and what > happens to them, of which the murder of a child and his reappearance as a > ghost is merely the culminating incident. Why, then, did Card name his book _Lost Boys_ if he did not plan on the ghost story as the central element. Perhaps, if he intended to tell a Mormon family's story, he should have named the book _A Year in the Life of a Mormon Family in Gentile North Carolina._ But then, HarperCollins might have had a harder time selling the longer title. Sarcasm aside, authors may not control much in their lives, but they do control the content of their manuscripts. An author may not put much thought into why he decided to use a snake instead of a spider, but I contend that the subconscious decision to select a particular species comes from the cultural heritage of that object -- even if the author does not consciously make that decision. Objects always bring with them their heritage of symbolism. To me, the most pleasing literature operates at multiple levels. I can read just the story and enjoy the characters' journey, or I can examine the symbols used in the story and find greater depth and expanded meaning. Toni Morrison comes to mind. She seems to have an incredible sense of the symbols in her stories. Now, some authors work very hard to have their symbols work directly with their characters and plots, others seem to have some innate sense of symbolism and the symbols just without any conscious effort. Other authors don't seem to have any sense of symbolism, and these authors might tell a great story, but not one that's worth rereading for greater enlightenment. For me, Tom Clancy and John Grisham occupy this last category. I enjoy reading their suspense stories, but once I have finished one of their novels, I have no compulsion to look for any meaning beyond the denouement. -- Terry L Jeffress AML Webmaster and AML-List Review Archivist - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Card's 'Ender's Game' Joins Newer Titles On Bestseller Lists: Kent Larsen Date: 06 Jan 2001 21:45:41 -0600 Kent Larsen 4Jan01 A4 [From Mormon-News] Card's 'Ender's Game' Joins Newer Titles On Bestseller Lists NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- As the paperback of Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Shadow" rises on bestseller lists after its release, fans are going back to the original. "Ender's Game" has appeared on Amazon.com's bestseller list 16 years after it was first published. Other titles continue on a number of lists, with Stephen Ambrose's "Nothing Like it in the World" starting to fall on the lists and Richard Paul Evans' "The Carousel" remaining on just one list. The current titles on bestseller lists are: Nothing Like it in the World, by Stephen Ambrose A history of the building of the transcontinental railroad in the US. Ambrose, a highly regarded historian, details the involvement of Mormons in building crucial portions of the road, including the driving of the "golden spike" in the heart of Mormon territory. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 7 6 Amazon.com (Jan 3) Non-Fiction Hardcover 68 n/a Amazon.com (Jan 4) Top 100 19 19 Barnes & Noble (Jan 4) Top 100 6 5 BooksAMillion (Dec 29) Non-Fiction Hardcover 2 1 Booksense (Dec 25) Non-Fiction Hardcover 3 4 Knight Ridder (Jan 4) Non-Fiction 3 4 New York Times (Jan 7) Non-Fiction Hardcover [Independents - 2; Chains - 6 ] 8 5 Publishers Weekly (Jan 8) Non-Fiction Hardcover 33 25 USA Today (Dec 31) 9 7 Wall Street Journal (Dec 29) Non-Fiction Hardcover 3 4 WordsWorth Independent Bookseller (Dec 19) Non-Fiction Hardcover See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684846098/mormonnews More about Stephen E. Ambrose's "Nothing Like It in the World: The Men Who Built the Transcontinental Railroad" at Amazon.com The Carousel, by Richard Paul Evans LDS author Evans writes about the love between a man and a woman, which is tested by the demands of family and work. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 19 15 New York Times (Jan 7) Fiction Hardcover See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684868911/mormonnews More about Richard Paul Evans' "The Carousel" at Amazon.com The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey This ten-year-old personal management classic is still selling strongly. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 16 21 Amazon.com (Jan 3) Non-Fiction Paperback 86 - Amazon.com (Jan 4) Top 100 91 83 Barnes & Noble Top (Jan 4) Top 100 111 138 USA Today (Dec 31) 5 4 Wall Street Journal (Dec 29) Business See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671708635/mormonnews More about Stephen R. Covey's "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" at Amazon.com Ender's Shadow, by Orson Scott Card A "parallell" novel to Card's Hugo and Nebula award-winning Ender's Game. Told from the point of view of the 'also ran' to Ender, Bean. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 15 13 Amazon.com (Jan 3) Fiction Paperback 100 - Amazon.com (Jan 4) Top 100 21 29 New York Times (Jan 7) Fiction Paperback [Chains - 16 ] 14 - Publishers Weekly (Jan 8) Mass Market Paperback 73 111 USA Today (Dec 31) 14 - WordsWorth Independent Bookseller (Dec 19) Fiction Paperback See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812575717/mormonnews More about Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Shadow" at Amazon.com Shadow of the Hegemon, by Orson Scott Card The second novel in Card's new series about Bean, Ender's shadow. In this novel, Bean is the tactical genius who wins the Earth for Ender's brother, Peter, the Hegemon. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 13 - Amazon.com (Jan 4) Top 100 See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312876513/mormonnews More about Orson Scott Card's "Shadow of the Hegemon" at Amazon.com Shadow of the Hegemon, by Orson Scott Card Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card The original Hugo and Nebula award-winning novel. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 25 - Amazon.com (Jan 3) Fiction Paperback See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312932081/mormonnews More about Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] U. Theater Icon Robert Wilson Dies Date: 09 Jan 2001 04:05:12 +0900 Deseret News Sunday, January 07, 2001 U. theater icon Robert Wilson dies Theater founder, director, playwright, actor and longtime professor Robert Hyde Wilson, 86, died Friday, Jan. 5, 2001, in Salt Lake City. Mr. Wilson was born Oct. 29, 1914, in Salt Lake City and colleagues estimate he touched and influenced the lives of nearly 3,500 students and actors during his long and prolific career. Robert Hyde Wilson Besides serving as an educator and mentor to thousands of University of Utah students and actors during his nearly 50-year career, he was known for directing about 200 theatrical productions along the Wasatch Front. In 1938, Mr. Wilson founded the Playbox Theatre, which many of his longtime colleagues say laid the foundation for the broad array of community, professional and semi-professional companies enjoyed by theatergoers across the state today. He also founded the Lagoon Opera House, was senior director of Pioneer Memorial Theatre, and endowed a scholarship fund for U. students. He also wrote plays, performed on stage, taught playwriting and took part in a poetry society. After he retired, he coached theater students. In October 1999, as part of his 85th birthday celebration many of Mr. Wilson's former students paid homage with a brief production touching on highlights from his life. The party was originally scheduled at the Playbox but overwhelming response moved the event to much larger Kingsbury Hall. Mr. Wilson dabbled in painting, piano and journalism (he was assistant editor of West High School's Red and Black newspaper) before settling on theater as a career. His early years in theater included toiling backstage, plus some minor roles in productions at the U., and directing plays for the 12th, 13th and 18th LDS wards and the University LDS ward, plus pageants for the church's Mutual Improvement Association. The statistics of his directorial career are impressive: 75 plays at the Playbox, 35 at Kingsbury Hall, 25 on the Pioneer Memorial Theater stage, 13 in the Babcock Theatre, 32 in the Lagoon Opera House and several others, including two productions for the Classical Greek Theatre Festival. During leaves of absence from the U., Mr. Wilson served as guest director of Le Petit Theatre du Vieux Carre in New Orleans, guest director at the University of Minnesota and was associate director of theater at Tulane University. Arrangements are being made for a private memorial gathering for family and friends Friday, Jan. 12. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 08 Jan 2001 18:18:08 -0700 "Women, do you hate arguing or are you just busy doing other things? In our >ward Sunday School class almost no women say anything." The few times I have bothered to comment I have had horrid responses. One teacher had the habit of twisting my comments on top of themselves and responding to something I had not intended, then didn't give me a chance to fix it. I always ended up looking ridiculous, so I stopped speaking up. Other times the teacher hasn't understood what I was talking about (I am amazed at some teachers who know so little about their own subject!). Once I made what I felt was a legitimate (and innocent enough) comment that sparked a nasty debate in the class--and the teacher refused to call on me ever again, as if I had planned the response. Now I leave the comments to the two or three egos in the room, all of which (in my ward, at least) are men, who enjoy bantering and showing off rather than sharing any meaningful discussion or bringing any spirit to the room. That's not something I care to participate in. And now that I'm in Primary I don't need to! Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 08 Jan 2001 18:31:19 -0700 Give me anything C.S. Lewis any day. I particularly love_The Great Divorce_. There is so much in there I feel like I could read it a hundred times and still learn something new. I love seeing how his mind works and seeing his perspective on the gospel. Often I find something where, as an LDS person, I think, "How did he know THAT?" Amazing man. Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Former Student, BYU Headed for Trial Date: 08 Jan 2001 19:16:55 -0600 >From the Deseret News http://www.deseretnews.com E-mail: mtitze@desnews.com _____ Sunday, January 07, 2001 Former student, BYU headed for trial School infringed on her copyright, '90 graduate says By Maria Titze Deseret News staff writer Despite unusual efforts by U.S. District Judge Bruce S. Jenkins to encourage a settlement, Brigham Young University and a former student who claims the school infringed on her copyright of a theatrical production are headed for trial. Sallie Larsen, a 1990 communications graduate and former employee of the school's Student Leadership Development's Department of Student Life, alleges that she did not give BYU permission to use her play for a student orientation in 1998. In 1995, the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators honored the piece with its Most Innovative Program Award. The one-hour multimedia presentation focuses on the traditions and heritage of BYU and was used as the final event of a three-day new student orientation conducted before the opening of fall semester. Larsen says she is the sole author of the play, which she began to write in 1991, before she was hired by BYU. Between 1992 and 1997, Larsen gave BYU permission to use the piece on a one-time basis, her attorneys said. Larsen registered the play with the U.S. Copyright Office in 1996 and says she advised BYU officials in a letter two years later that she held copyright to the work. But the school performed the piece during student orientation in August 1998 before an audience of roughly 6,000. Larsen's attorneys say that after that performance, Student Life Vice President Alton L. Wade acknowledged in a letter that Larsen held copyrighted interests in the work, that BYU must "negotiate a license" with Larsen to use it and that BYU would "secure permission" from (Larsen) before using the piece again. But at a hearing Friday, attorneys for BYU said a good portion of the work was completed after she graduated and became an employee. The presentation was "made for hire," said attorney Todd E. Zenger. "We believe we are the author of this stage production." BYU hasn't used the piece since 1998, and the school's attorneys claim Larsen gave permission for that performance. After hearing from both sides on BYU's motion to dismiss the case, Judge Jenkins paused and then asked, "Do you fellows want to settle this?" He offered the attorneys a room in his chambers to work out an agreement while he heard two other cases. But when the attorneys emerged they had not reached a settlement. Jenkins then grilled Larsen's attorneys on the issue of how she "had been hurt" by the one-time production of her piece. She is seeking monetary relief for unspecified damages, but the audience members who saw the production in 1998 did not pay a ticket fee -- although there was a cost for student orientation. "Someone can feel deprived or even put upon when one has contributed over the years to something that has genuine artistic value," he said. "Anyone would feel hurt. But that's not within the scope of the copyright act." Despite that caveat, Jenkins denied BYU's motion to dismiss the case and set a pretrial hearing for Feb. 28. _____ Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] MITCHELL, _Angel of the Danube_ (Review) Date: 09 Jan 2001 13:06:42 +0900 Title: Angel of the Danube Bonneville Books, 2000 Softcover, 197 pp. Cost: $12.95 I read Angel of the Danube over Christmas break, and was getting ready to hunker down and write a review when Ruth Starkman posted hers a couple of days ago. Good, I didn't want to write a long thing, explaining the main premises of the book. You can get that from her. But I'd still like to add my two cents. First of all, it is a fun read. (You may notice that is a theme in my reviews. Dullness, no matter how lofty the purpose, is death for me.) Mitchell brings back the taste and feel of missionary life marvelously well. I think my mission, in Japan, had some key similarities to Mitchell's= =20 Vienna. Both were urban, with four-Elder apartments, and lots of getting together with other missionaries living not far away. You have a kind of group camaraderie in those situations, which can release companionship tensions. Those called to more isolated areas, with just their companion around and not much chance to get away, would have a more claustrophobic=20 experience, I think. Whoops, sorry, that was a tangent. Anyway, these=20 missionaries are a hoot. Jerry Johnson wrote in his Deseret News column that he feared the novel would rub people the wrong way because it is=20 anti-authority. I don't think it is, or if it is, that isn't a big part of= =20 it. (There is one annoying AP, but he is just annoying, not because he has=20 authority.) They aren't so much anti-authority, as just goofy. Like the God's Army missionaries, but a little more extreme, using nicknames, goofing off, taking unapproved trips, blowing up small bombs, etc. (Okay, the bomb went beyond goofy, but it really doesn't come off as being that bad, trust me). I'm afraid that goofiness is what will make some people mad, and not like the book. People who were put of by the God's Army pranks/jokes would blow up over this book. (But then again, how many people were really put=20 off by God's Army?) Hmmm, all that didn't come out right. Goofiness isn't a central part of the book, I shouldn't have started with that. I just meant to say that this is= =20 a fun book to read. There is a lot of good-natured humor. The main character is, which I think almost any 19-year old guy would have to admit, a very=20 cool guy. We would all have loved to have him as a companion, and so it is= =20 fun to read about him. (Some may disagree, but I don't think most guys would if=20 they thought back to your 19-year-old selves. Women, I dunno, I can't predict=20 your reaction, especially if cocky Californians are not your thing.) Mitchell does a great job with the "voice". The entire first-person story= =20 is told in a California surfer-dude patois. I thought it might get annoying at= =20 first, but it never did. In his review, Cracroft compared it to the=20 narrative voice of Huckleberry Finn, and I think that is about right. One of the best parts of the novel is the use of folktales. The=20 missionaries are constantly hearing the tales from their Austrian friends, and they tell them to each other (and to investigators) to illustrate their points. Okay, it is a little far-fetched that these missionaries would appreciate these=20 folktales so much, but it works in the context of the story, and it gives it a lot of heart. It would be great if missionaries understood the culture around them so well that they could use these kind of folktales. It's funny, in some ways it is very realistic (especially the missionary's tough times), and in some ways it isn=81ft at all. Like magical realism,=20 perhaps (sorry, I may not understand the term that well, but I have read some of=20 it). It never gets that unhinged from reality, but the way the missionaries use= =20 folktales, and the epiphanies that Monroe has, it kind of has that flavor. As well as the camaraderie and folktales, Mitchell shows us missionaries who are trying very hard at something about which they care deeply. They are=20 helped by the Spirit at key times. They care fiercely about the members,=20 investigators and each other. We see Elder Monroe come to respect and love a companion he= =20 wanted to throttle for a long time. It is full of positive moments, without ever becoming sentimental or cloying. Everything moves along at a very nice clip until the final quarter, when=20 Monroe has returned home. There things stall a bit, which I suppose fits his life, which also has stalled. For the first time the situations become a little= =20 trite. But things wrap up nicely in the satisfying last chapter. Angel of the Danube is my favorite piece of missionary literature I've read= =20 so far. Well, at least since Bela Petsco's Nothing Very Important. Compared= =20 to God=81fs Army (which I thought was great) it is much more realistic and intellectually satisfying, although perhaps it has a little less heart. (I haven't read Benson's Into the Field yet, that probably would be the most suitable novel to compare it too.) Unless you are very easily offended, I really recommend it. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: [AML] CHANDLER, "Benediction" (was: Editorial...) Date: 09 Jan 2001 03:10:49 -0600 At 19:46 06-01-01 -0800, "Darlene Young" wrote: >--- Christopher Bigelow wrote: > > Isn't this off topic? I could go on about my > > teaching approach and experience in the Church, but > > I don't know what it has to do with AML-List. > > > > >Speaking of teaching approaches and Mormon lit., I >just can't find a short story to equal Chandler's >"Benediction" for affectionate satire of Mormon Gospel >Doctrine teaching methods. I envy those of you who >have yet to read it for the first time--absolute delight! So how does one experience this pleasure? (IOW, if that was too subtle: Where does someone located many thousands of miles from Happy Valley come across a copy?) -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 2 Date: 09 Jan 2001 08:08:37 -0700 Jacob Proffitt wrote: >That being the case, I could add _The Matrix_ and _Dark City_ >if you'll allow Sci. Fi. trappings for the supernatural. If you are, = >you might as well throw in _Contact_, but I can't think why >except that = it wants to be transcendent. _Mystery Men_ is fun, >but you'll have to = accept The >Sphinx as a supernatural agent to fit it into your category. >_Chicken = Run_ >if your vision of the afterlife is free-range chickens. I liked your = >pick of Babe II. I thought it was better than the first one, though = >darker. I absolutely agree about The Matrix. I think it's definitely transcendent,= and of course there's no reason at all to exclude sci-fi films from this = genre. I wondered about ET, for example, before finally deciding that = there's no particular vision of any kind of afterlife; it's not clear if = ET dies, or merely goes into a kind of suspended animation or self-induced = coma. I think Jacob has nailed Contact perfectly; it's a very earth-bound = transcendence, which is probably all Carl Sagan could bring himself to = explore. Do any chickens die and go to heaven in Chicken Run? I'm not = sure they do; though I like the movie tremendously, I'm not sure it has = the supernatural element I've identified as transcendent. Of course all these definitions are capricious and arbitrary. But what = interests me in this genre is the notion of some kind of afterlife or = extra-worldly experience that awaits us. And it surprises me how many = such films there are. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yeechang Lee Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 09 Jan 2001 10:23:29 -0500 (EST) > The sympathetic view of a conservative, fundamentalist believer caught > some critics by surprise, according to reviews I read. This sentence reminded me of, all things, the Rodney Dangerfield vehicle _Meet Wally Sparks_ (1997). No, it's not great art. But one thing I was pleasantly surprised by was that it prominently features a character (the conservative governor of Georgia) who publicly emphasizes morality yet is very much *not* a hypocrite. The movie establishes the sincerity of his beliefs very early, and a key plot point is based on whether he would compromise them in his private life. As a longtime, off-and-on lurker, I guess I'll have to introduce myself one of these days. Yeechang, who swears this and parts of _Caddyshack_ are the only Dangerfield films he's ever seen -- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film Date: 09 Jan 2001 08:24:23 -0700 D. Michael disagreed with my take on What Dreams May Come, and made some = interesting points. For example: =20 Me: >This results in a kind of pretty pastel heaven, and I spent >most of = the film convinced that it was actually hell, and that that >was going to = be the big plot twist: he thinks he's in heaven, but >actually he's not. = I'm sort of an art snob, and I thought the film >made heaven look, well, = tacky. D. Michael: >One man's tacky is another man's heaven. You make it sound = >like all of >heaven was a pretty pastel painting. But that was just the >psychological = construct Robin Williams put around himself when >he first entered heaven. = And a very appropriate one, I think, >since his thoughts were very heavy = on his artist wife at the time. >As Williams grew in heaven, >his perception of heaven grew and became more sophisticated. Well put. Part of my disappointment with the heaven in WDMC has to do = with the fact that I thought I'd cleverly figured out where the film was = going, and got it wrong. That's always aggravating. I just wish they'd = made her a better artist. Me again: > Theologically, I found the film very troubling. Sciorra's = >character's journey is horrific. Her children die in one awful >accident.= Unable to deal with her grief, she's briefly >institutionalized, but = finally begins to recover, in large measure >because of the love and = support of her husband. Then he's >killed. She can't deal with it, and = she commits suicide. The >notion of hell being a mental state of one's own = creation was >powerfully depicted; she gets to live, eternally, in the = state of >anguish in which she died. Where's God in all this? Where's = the >atonement? Where's even the simplest human compassion? >Okay, Robin = Williams is able to go to her and save her, and it all >works out. But = the film strongly suggests that that sort of hubby->intervention is rare; = that most people in her situation don't get >rescued. Ever. What an = appalling thought. What a despicable >theology. D. Michael: >As you describe it, I would agree: it's a despicable = >theology. But all >it takes is one crank of the type-and-shadow mill, and you can >make it >fit very nicely. All you have to do is look at the Robin Williams >character as a Christ figure, then you do have God, the >atonement, and >compassion, just like the real plan of salvation. Well, okay, but the film specifically excludes that reading. There is a = God in this film's theology--they refer to Him--he just isn't a character = in the film.=20 =20 D. Michael: >We all were doomed by our choices in this life, and >would = have remained >in that state of anguish we call hell, even though it was not >remotely >fair that we do.=20 True enough. But the Sciorra character isn't doomed by choices she's = made; she's doomed because of dreadful things that happened to her that = were completely out of her control. Now, I do believe that one of the = functions of the atonement is to comfort us while in a state of anguish. = I do believe that Christ died for our sins, and also suffered for our = suffering. I just didn't see it in the film. >And there was no one who could save us from that >predicament. No one had done it, no one could do it, until our >Christ = figure came along and did it. Robin Williams redeemed his >wife (and by >symbolic proxy, all the rest of us) by sacrificing himself: he was >willing to descend into hell and stay there if necessary. To the extent that this film causes us to contemplate the atonement, then = of course it's a successful film. These weren't my thoughts while = watching it, but they were D. Michael's thoughts, and of course that's = valid. We all react differently to works of art. To me the film is an = artistic and theological failure. To me the film says that we'll be = punished in the afterlife for horrible things that happened to us in this = life which are beyond our control, and that, to me, is a repellent = thought. But there are always alternative readings for any text. =20 By the same token, the transcendent scenes in Gladiator are far and way = the most powerful scenes in the film, and the scenes which really stuck in = my memory. Obviously, not everyone had the same reaction. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 09 Jan 2001 08:54:45 -0700 O.k. that makes sence. We are embroys and some of us are learning these other skills faster then others. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Alan MITCHELL, _Angel of the Danube_ (Review) Date: 09 Jan 2001 11:37:33 -0700 I think Jerry was HOPING your book would sell, Alan, and maybe feeling sad because he thought it might not because the audience wouldn't recognize quality. But the good news is that it IS SELLING! It has sold 1300 copies in two months. That is fairly good for any book on the market! CFI is thrilled with the amount of sales! And so am I! Marilyn B - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 09 Jan 2001 11:40:05 -0700 Nan, what a fascinating character your grandfather is! Now there's a story for you to write! Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 1997 11:47 AM > Eric, when you talk about *loopiness in our culture* I think about my > grandfather. He was born in 1852 England, came to this country with his > parents, joined the church and practiced medicine in Cache Valley. [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 09 Jan 2001 14:22:36 -0700 Robert Kirby had a funny column in Saturday's Salt Lake Tribune on = teaching Sunday School. By the way, he'll be the cover interview in = Irreantum's spring 2001 issue, guest-edited by Ed Snow and focusing on = humor. See http://www.sltrib.com/2001/jan/01062001/saturday/60040.htm. -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis Manning" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 09 Jan 2001 15:09:42 -0700 Ironically, my wife and I read Lewis'_Great Divorce_ on our honeymoon,somewheres between Salmon, Idaho and Salt Lake City. Don't remember the book much. That whole month of July 2000 was a blur. Travis K. Manning "Men and women die; philosophers falter in wisdom, and Christians in goodness: if any one you know has suffered and erred, let him look higher than his equals for strength to amend, and solace to heal." (Jane Eyre) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 09 Jan 2001 18:15:57 -0800 (PST) Just saw Steven Soderbergh's epic new film "Traffic", which is about the war on drugs. In Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch, a church member, has received criticism for his cameo in the R-rated film; in fact, he has issued a statement regretting his participation. This makes little sense to me because I can't imagine a more anti-drug film (which is the reason Hatch agreed to appear in the first place.) It really is a fine movie with a moral message about the damage illegal drugs do to society and individuals. Nevada Sen. Harry Reid, who is also LDS, also appears in the film--one wonders if such a big stink about his participation will be raised in *his* state. ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 09 Jan 2001 19:37:49 -0600 >From the Salt Lake Tribune Tuesday, December 19, 2000 BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes BY KIRSTEN STEWART THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE On the heels of a vote by the Provo School Board to ban all R-rated movies from schools, Brigham Young University is considering adopting a similar policy for its classrooms. The timing of the two policies is purely coincidental, said university spokeswoman Carri Jenkins. Now in draft form and under review by department heads, BYU's policy has been in the works for more than two years. Officials at the school, owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, would not release a copy of the draft. "It's really too preliminary . . . It may change," said Sally Taylor, chairwoman of the five-member committee charged with creating the policy. But the policy is described as a set of basic guidelines and questions for faculty to consider when choosing visual aids -- not a doctrine of censorship. Jenkins said the impetus for the policy was twofold: complaints from parents and students over the use of offensive visual material in the classroom, and the August 1998 closure of Varsity Theater, a public movie house on the school's Provo campus that screened edited versions of popular films. The theater was a popular draw for Utah County's widely conservative and Mormon population because it showed R-rated flicks sans sex, violence and profanity. But the Hollywood studios behind those cinematic creations didn't like seeing them cut, so the theater was shut down. Its closure, said Jenkins, got administrators thinking about legal and moral barriers to editing and using films and other media in the classroom for instructional purposes. In a rare move, the administration asked faculty to draw up the policy, said Sharon Swenson, a media and arts professor at BYU who sits on the Visual Material Committee. "There is a clear need for policy," said Swenson. BYU's mission is to educate its students while building spiritual and moral character. In addition, students and their parents expect a somewhat sheltered environment on campus. But actually drafting the policy "turned out to be extremely difficult," Swenson said, adding she is not wholly satisfied with the outcome. Part of the problem is that the label "visual aids" encompasses a broad array of material, from sculpture to images downloaded from the Internet, she said. Coming up with a single policy to cover all media and their potential use within different academic contexts had many on the committee and the campus at large alarmed, Swenson said. Films are easier, because they are rated, said Swenson. But where to draw the line of acceptability for other disciplines, such as painting with its history of using nude models, is more difficult. The university also has tussled over art and morality in sculpture; in 1997, BYU refused to display four nude works in a traveling exhibit of 19th century sculptor Rodin. "No one among us felt comfortable saying this is what I believe and what everyone else should believe," which is why, Swenson said, the policy ended up looking more like "an invitation and effort to engage people in thinking about the visual material they choose." The policy-making process was also difficult personally and spiritually for Swenson, she said. It caused her to reflect on her own values and how she raises her children. "I'm a firm believer that people can choose what to expose themselves to. But there is a lot of toxic material out there and popular culture is often the way people acquire values," she said. Swenson's current research interest is in the rise in popularity of video games. She said she understands why overworked and over-stressed parents are desperate to shield their children from the nudity in movies or violence of demonic rituals re-enacted in certain computer games. "Something should be done," said Swenson. But setting a policy that bans R-rated subject matter from the classroom is like saying, "No sweet cereals [except] on Sunday, then you have Chocoberries. It's easier to set that kind of policy than to take the time to explore the nutritional values of the cereal." e-mail: kstewart@sltrib.com ["expect" in the original on-line article.] _____ Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 01 Jan 2001 20:33:32 -0700 Cathy, in your work as a healer, do you see the *sub-conscious mind* at work? Years ago I read a scholarly book about the sub-conscious and I thought it was fabulous. I lost the book and haven't been able to find another one. (I can't remember the author.) After reading the book I became convinced that Heavenly Father uses our sub-conscious mind as well as WE use our own sub-conscious. I know people who talk about their dreams as if they belonged to someone else. We have to own our own dreams. They come from OUR sub-conscious. Once when I was in a hospital in San Francisco, I had a dream or an epiphany that my mother was warning me about one of my children. My mother was still living, so I reasoned that it was my own sub-conscious trying to get my attention with Heavenly Father's help. I think that is the way healing works. What have you read about the sub-conscious from Mormon writers? Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 2 Date: 09 Jan 2001 22:32:48 -0700 On Tue, 09 Jan 2001 08:08:37 -0700, Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: >Do any chickens die and go to heaven in Chicken Run? I'm not sure they = do; though I like the movie tremendously, I'm not sure it has the = supernatural element I've identified as transcendent. That final bit after they cross the fence is very much an after life, in = my view. It's an obvious utopian vision and the first scene that absolutely violates a sense of reality (that's weird, I know, but until then, you = could actually envision the story happening in your chicken coop). That's why = I wanted to call it Transcendent. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Literature Date: 10 Jan 2001 09:00:49 -0700 Has anyone mentioned George Eliot's ADAM BEDE? Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 10 Jan 2001 10:59:28 -0700 Annette Lyon wrote: >Now I leave the comments to the two >or three egos in the room, all of which (in my ward, at least) are >men, = who >enjoy bantering and showing off rather than sharing any >meaningful >discussion or bringing any spirit to the room. That's not something >I = care >to participate in. And now that I'm in Primary I don't need to! What a sad, and sadly accurate commentary on Sunday School. As a = long-time GD teacher, let me add my two cents worth, which I hope I can = apply to writing. I judge the success or failure of my GD lessons on how many women = participate. Maybe this is sexist of me, but my experience is that women = are interested in a discussion of how the scriptures help us with our = everyday lives; in how this passage of scripture helps me become more = charitable or forgiving, or how I can improve my family relationships = through applying this scripture. And men are often more interested in = some sort of esoteric discussion, like how such and such proves the = truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or something. I prefer the comments of = the sisters in the class, and prefer to call on women if I have a choice = in the matter. And I've reached a point where participation is about = 60-40 female to male, and my class tends to be SRO; they've had to move us = to a bigger room, and now it's packed too. I don't know that I'm anything = special as a teacher, but we do have some lively and wonderful discussions = in there, and it's sort of the highlight of my week. Where this helps me as a writer is, I think, that it helps me create more = interesting female characters. I think one of the biggest challenges all = of us share is the ability to create characters of the other gender; men = writing convincing women characters and women writing convincing male = characters. And Sunday School is, for me, a wonderful place to learn how = to improve my abilities in this area. I think it's because in Sunday = School, we're talking about very very important issues, issues that matter = to all of us in the most profound ways. By listening carefully to the = women in my ward comment in Sunday School, I think I learn more than I = would in a more casual, less structured conversation, about what matters = to women, how women think, how women perceive the world, which does = differ, I think, from the way men perceive the world. I tend to think of = Sunday School as my weekly writing lesson. It is, in any case, a = treasured time for me. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 10 Jan 2001 12:05:23 -0600 Does anyone out there know whether the 2000 BYU Lewis Playwriting Contest for Women has been judged yet? I know it was delayed for a host of reasons, but it is January now and the contest is normally judged around August. Entries for each year are usually due in March and it's usually announced by now (I usually see the announcement here come through on the List.) Will the contest be held in 2001 at all? Yes, there's personal interest here--I had a play entered. Thanks for any further information you may have. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 2 Date: 10 Jan 2001 09:02:48 -0700 Cast Away was great! MB ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 10:01 AM > Cast Away (which I saw in Moab over the weekend) came pretty close. > > Thom > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 10 Jan 2001 09:05:01 -0700 Your comment, Eric, reminds me of the three or four years the RS got the opportunity to study LITERATURE, (of all things) in their cultural lessons! Cracroft wrote the books--and I think Lambert helped. Anyway, that was one of my favorite times! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ruth A. Starkman" Subject: Re: [AML] Alan MITCHELL, _Angel of the Danube_ (Review) Date: 10 Jan 2001 09:42:51 -0800 Glad to hear _Angel_ is selling well. I'm not surprised. It's a good, fun book. As for the missionary journal genre, it's definitely interesting to the non-member not only as an amalgam of coming-of-age story, spiritual journey and travel novel, but for the mission itself--something non-members can hardly imagine having done at 19 and 20, and are very curious about. Andrew Hall's comments also made me think that _Angel's_ depiction of the comraderie of the mission would be a big attraction for returned missionaries. --Ruth Starkman - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 10 Jan 2001 12:52:40 -0700 I saw "Traffic" over the weekend too. It's a phenomenal movie, quite = thought-provoking and stylistically mesmerizing, with terrific performances= . Some of the plot strands strain credulity a little at times, but the = strengths far outweigh the weaknesses. To me the U.S. war on drugs is a prime example of relying on the arm of = flesh, something that even religious people do all too often when trying = to resist sin and change behavior. Watching the film from that Mormon = point of view was quite interesting. The war on drugs seems to be = emphasizing all the wrong things. This movie made me think and feel much more than any I've seen in awhile. = Although it ends on a slightly up note, it is most definitely not = redemptive. Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: RE: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 10 Jan 2001 21:30:26 GMT Nan asked, > Cathy, in your work as a healer, do you see the *sub-conscious mind* at > work? Yes, in fact, that's probably where most of the pertinent information for healing comes from. In the protocols I learned (from the Upledger Institute in Florida, founded by Dr. John Upledger, an osteopath that created the modern form of CranioSacral Therapy), there are specific techniques for accessing that information. It's serious and playful at the same time and if the person is ready and willing, it can be wonderful to see how it works. I don't know how the subconscious mind is specifically related to the spirit, but I do feel that our spirits know pretty much everything; we just need to find a way to access that info (sometimes dreams, sometimes other ways). Cathy Cathy Gileadi Wilson This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 10 Jan 2001 17:59:38 -0700 On Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:15:57 -0800 (PST), R.W. Rasband wrote: >Just saw Steven Soderbergh's epic new film "Traffic", >which is about the war on drugs. In Utah Sen. Orrin >Hatch, a church member, has received criticism for his >cameo in the R-rated film; in fact, he has issued a >statement regretting his participation. He did? The quote I saw from him is that he was happy to be in it and doesn't regret it. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 10 Jan 2001 17:48:16 -0800 (PST) Also, if there was ever a movie about "secret combinations" whose object is "to murder and get gain", _Traffic_ is it. A chilling examination of human selfishness and the propensity of some to make a good living off the terrible suffering of others. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: [AML] Literature in Relief Society (was: Telepathy and Magic) Date: 11 Jan 2001 00:36:12 -0500 At 09:05 AM 1/10/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Your comment, Eric, reminds me of the three or four years the RS got the >opportunity to study LITERATURE, (of all things) in their cultural lessons! >Cracroft wrote the books--and I think Lambert helped. Anyway, that was one >of my favorite times! Marilyn Brown > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm Actually it was that way for many years, almost until the consolodated schedule began. When I was growing up, one of my favorite magazines was the _Relief Society Magazine_ becuase it contained a lot of neat stuff about literature. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 11 Jan 2001 00:24:07 -0700 mcnandon wrote: > After reading the book I > became convinced that Heavenly Father uses our sub-conscious mind as well as > WE use our own sub-conscious. Our subconscious mind seems to act like a data processing device (but with highly intuitive processing abilities that computers lack). It has no volition whatsoever, nor can it seem to make any value judgments on the relevance of one piece of data or another. All of those traits seem to reside in the conscious portion of our minds. From our point of view, it's as if we dump data into the subsconscious mind, which then works on that data in as mysterious a fashion as computers do to most people, then spits out results. I have wondered if the veil that is drawn over our minds actually divides our minds. After all, the knowledge and memories we have from the pre-existence must have gone somewhere. The entirety of our volition and value judgments resides on the mortal side of our minds, along with something like a _tabula rasa_ that we can write our earthly experiences on. Meanwhile, the rest of our eternal minds, the part where no conscious volition or ability to make value judgments resides, contains all the information from our former lives as well as amazing skills at data processing that we don't understand, all hidden from us behind the veil. Yet we seem to have some sort of connection between the two. We seem to be able to interact with that subconscious mind like a black box, not understanding it but being able to utilize its abilities in a way where we have very little control. If my speculation is correct, perhaps this conduit between our conscious and subconscious minds is the means of communication we have with the celestial realm and with God. God interacts with the subconscious portion of our minds remaining in his presence behind the veil, and that in turn passes the interaction along to our conscious minds in mortality. This would certainly explain why the state of mind called "being in tune with the Spirit" is so vital to communication with God: our minds themselves are the conduit to heaven. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters (was: CARD, _Lost Boys_) Date: 11 Jan 2001 09:17:16 -0600 Regarding Terry Jeffress's comments on unity and authorial control of a story, Jonathan Langford wrote: > This theory of the story that Terry propounds is a common one--the notion > that every element of a story should be carefully crafted and meaningful, > under the author's control, contributing to the overall effect of the > story--but it's not the only possible theory of storytelling, nor do I > think it is the most persuasive theory. Then he discusses the ideas of Mikhail Bahktin to really good effect. An author is in "complete control" in the same way that a parent is in "complete control" of their children. Control in this sense is an illusion we often present to ourselves in order to believe that complete madness is NOT, in fact, ruling our lives. -- Todd - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 11 Jan 2001 09:19:34 -0700 >On the heels of a vote by the Provo School Board to ban all >R-rated movies from schools, Brigham Young University is >considering adopting a similar policy for its classrooms.=20 >The timing of the two policies is purely coincidental, said >university spokeswoman Carri Jenkins. Now in draft form and >under review by department heads, BYU's policy has been in the >works for more than two years.=20 Thought some of you might be interested in an insider's perspective on = this one. Plus, I really really want to rant to good friends about this. = Forgive me in advance. We got a draft of the memo mentioned in this Trib article. The university = is trying to formulate a 'visual materials policy' which presumably would = involve any use of any visual materials in any class. Except that the = draft doesn't do that; it's about 90 percent aimed at film clips shown in = class. It's important to note that the draft of the policy we saw does = NOT ban R rated movies from classes. In fact, it says that we CAN show = clips from R-rated movies if we absolutely have to, while hedging that = permission with some truly astonishingly Pharasaic qualifications and = amendations. The draft of the proposed policy that we saw is an amazing document. I = mean, the 'visual materials policy' for BYU should be stated in two = sentences: "Professors can show anything they want to in class. Students = who disagree with a professor's choice of materials should follow = established university grievance procedures." That's what the policy = should be, and it's the de facto policy currently in place. It's also = what the de facto policy will be, no matter what document comes out of = that committee. But what we saw was this ten page monstrosity, full of misapplied = scripture and anecdotal material suggesting that anyone who would even = think of disturbing students by showing 'inappropriate' material in class = ought to be really really ashamed of themselves. My favorite was a story = from some professor in which he said that when he was in graduate school = he was asked to read a novel (unspecified) which he felt uncomfortable = with, and that he'd chosen not to read it, and although he'd failed the = class, he felt great about himself and glad he hadn't read it. =20 Well, bushwa. How about an anecdote from someone who was asked to read = something that really disturbed him, and who went ahead and read it, and = had a life-changing positive experience? Like what happened to me the = first time I was asked to read Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy. Or how about = a testimony from someone who saw a film full of sexual and violent = imagery, who nonetheless had a deeply spiritual, life-and-faith affirming = experience? =20 Besides, the whole idea of such a policy document offends me. Does the = administration seriously imagine that we don't think carefully and = responsibly about the choices of material we show in the class? My film = colleagues are some of the most careful, conscientious, spiritual, = responsible people I know. Under no circumstances whatsoever would any = member of the faculty at BYU ever show a film intended to damage students = spiritually or hurt anyone's testimony or connection to the Holy Ghost. I = say that unequivocally. =20 Anyway, we all marked the thing up, and sent it back, and we'll have to = see what happens to it. One of two things will happen. First of all, the = document might come back saying, in essence, 'show anything you think is = appropriate or necessary.' If so, we're all fine. Second, the document may say 'you shouldn't show R-rated films.' We'll = ignore it, of course, because we have to; you cannot teach film responsibly= without showing at least clips from the most important and valuable films = that have been made. (And for the eight millionth time, I repeat: the = motion picture rating system is completely without value of any kind) You = cannot, for example, teach documentary filmmaking without showing = documentary films, and most of the best of them (and the ones that best = exemplify the principles of documentary filmmaking) have been rated R. = And then someday, some student will complain, not to the department but to = some General Authority his parents know or something. And a faculty = member will lose his/her job. And we'll have another big mess. In other words, we're going to continue to do our jobs. This document can = either give us some cover, or not. And all we can hope for is that it = does. =20 Eric Samuelsen =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 11 Jan 2001 10:40:22 -0700 > On Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:15:57 -0800 (PST), R.W. Rasband wrote: > > >Just saw Steven Soderbergh's epic new film "Traffic", > >which is about the war on drugs. In Utah Sen. Orrin > >Hatch, a church member, has received criticism for his > >cameo in the R-rated film; in fact, he has issued a > >statement regretting his participation. > > He did? The quote I saw from him is that he was happy to be in it and > doesn't regret it. > > Jacob Proffitt He claims he was told the movie would be no worse than a PG-13 and that's why he particpated. [Thom Duncan] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 11 Jan 2001 10:48:33 -0700 Where was it that I read that Freud said it was the UNCONSCIOUS? Is there some way to tell the difference? Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- > Cathy, in your work as a healer, do you see the *sub-conscious mind* at > work? [snip] > > Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 11 Jan 2001 10:56:23 -0700 > Besides, the whole idea of such a policy document offends me. > Does the administration seriously imagine that we don't > think carefully and responsibly about the choices of material > we show in the class? My film colleagues are some of the > most careful, conscientious, spiritual, responsible people I > know. Under no circumstances whatsoever would any member of > the faculty at BYU ever show a film intended to damage > students spiritually or hurt anyone's testimony or connection > to the Holy Ghost. I say that unequivocally. Not only that, the "shocking" effect of certain movies can be greatly mitigated by the instructor. When you know why a filmmaker does something, and also how it is done, the shock of certain scenes can be lessened. I entered junior college at the age of 17, an art major. My first class, the year I turned 18, was life drawing. I remember thinking, How can I survive this? Drawing real live naked people. How can I concentrate? The day came. The model (and she was gorgeous) came out, dropped her robe. She was as naked as the day she was born. Instead of going into an extreme state of lust (as I had supposed), I found myself concentrating on how to draw her as well as I could. IOW, the possible erotic effect seeing her alone may have had was erased by, first being in a room where everyone else was fully clothed and we were concetrating on our incipient drawing skills. I remember being amazed. I had previously seen pictures of naked women in magazines and was certain I would react the same way in art class. It didn't happen. Seeing segments of R-rated films, even the "naughty" parts would be similarly de-activated with a skillful teacher. Pre- and post-film discussions would let students know what would be happening, why, and they would be looking at the film with critical eyes, instead of audience eyes. When you know, for instance, how the special effects guys make a head explode, you are never shocked thereafter (at least I'm not). You may be amazed (how DID they do that?) but never shocked. This idea that literature shouldn't disturb you is nonsense. Aren't the scriptures disturbing (at the same time that they are comforting) to sinners? Being disturbed can be a good thing, if it leads to the changing of a life. And don't get me started on what this proposed policy has to say about what BYU *really* thinks about the adulthood and spiritural maturity of its students. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 11 Jan 2001 14:02:14 -0700 On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:19:34 -0700, Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: >Well, bushwa. How about an anecdote from someone who was asked to read = something that really disturbed him, and who went ahead and read it, and = had a life-changing positive experience? This happened to me in my American Lit class. We read Leslie Silko's _Ceremony_. The professor warned us ahead of time that it would likely offend us and he offered an alternative if we wanted to--which I thought = was a perfect way to handle the issue (something probably not possible in a = film class, but it worked in Am Lit). Anyway, I read _Ceremony_. It wasn't = all that offensive, frankly, but I could see how it might have been to others (harsh language and really harsh situations). It was dark and tough to = get through. But I was rewarded with a very good and life-changing = definition of good and evil. One I am still working into my theology. It joins = _One Hundred Years of Solitude_ as a book I really need to re-read since I've graduated. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Literature in Relief Society Date: 11 Jan 2001 14:05:48 -0700 On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:36:12 -0500, Richard Johnson wrote: >Actually it was that way for many years, almost until the consolodated >schedule began. When I was growing up, one of my favorite magazines was >the _Relief Society Magazine_ becuase it contained a lot of neat stuff >about literature. >Richard B. Johnson I have begun collecting these. They are a gold mine of wonderful information about our past. They combine some really fine original work = by women with some interesting philosophical and literary analysis. They = look to me like they could constitute a kind of graduate degree for women. = I'm sad such quality material isn't available to LDS women today. Since I'm = by nature a computer geek, I've been toying with cataloging the ones I have. It's yet another task on my already impossible list of things I should do= if I get the time... Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 11 Jan 2001 17:28:28 -0700 >On Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:15:57 -0800 (PST), R.W. Rasband wrote: > >>Just saw Steven Soderbergh's epic new film "Traffic", >>which is about the war on drugs. In Utah Sen. Orrin >>Hatch, a church member, has received criticism for his >>cameo in the R-rated film; in fact, he has issued a >>statement regretting his participation. > >He did? The quote I saw from him is that he was happy to be in it and >doesn't regret it. > Yeah, he made several statements to the effect that he thought it was a good movie with some thought-provoking ideas. If he issued a statement regretting his participation, I have yet to see a newspaper report that fact. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 02 Jan 2001 00:28:07 -0700 Michael, I liked your comments. I have read that the subconscious has no *conscience.* Because of this, I have wondered why we feel uncomfortable or guilty when we misbehave in our dreams. Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Date: 12 Jan 2001 01:04:57 -0700 Eric: > I judge the success or failure of my GD lessons on how many women > participate. Maybe this is sexist of me, but my experience is > that women are interested in a discussion of how the scriptures > help us with our everyday lives; in how this passage of scripture > helps me become more charitable or forgiving, or how I can > improve my family relationships through applying this scripture. > And men are often more interested in some sort of esoteric > discussion, like how such and such proves the truthfulness of the > Book of Mormon or something. I prefer the comments of the > sisters in the class, and prefer to call on women if I have a > choice in the matter. And I've reached a point where > participation is about 60-40 female to male, and my class tends > to be SRO; they've had to move us to a bigger room, and now it's > packed too. I don't know that I'm anything special as a teacher, > but we do have some lively and wonderful discussions in there, > and it's sort of the highlight of my week. Are there any houses for sale in your ward? I need addresses. Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 12 Jan 2001 11:21:11 -0700 Jung was the proponent of the unconcious. Thom > -----Original Message----- > > Where was it that I read that Freud said it was the > UNCONSCIOUS? Is there > some way to tell the difference? Marilyn Brown > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: RE: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 12 Jan 2001 12:34:00 -0700 (MST) > > And don't get me started on what this proposed policy has to say about what > BYU *really* thinks about the adulthood and spiritural maturity of its > students. > > Thom Duncan I just talked with a member of the comittie, and if the majority (all but one person) of the comittie had had there way - the policy would be very open-ended and liberal. But the chair (now retired - so changes will most likely come) inisted on preparing a statement that was more of a sermon on the evils of media rather than a statement on media usage. The committie was forced to integrate that into their more "liberal" policy, so the document comes across as something of a disjointed hybrid. The person I talked to was responsible for actually writing the final draft and she tried to make it as seamless as possible, but when you have two very different documents that must be melded, it is going to come out ambiguous and open to interpretation by whoever wants to be the most offended. Give them more credit - the media committie is made up of real people making real decisions - we shouldn't treat them like some monolithic entity that can be easily discarded because they aren't real people. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Literature in Relief Society Date: 12 Jan 2001 12:39:41 -0700 On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:05:48 -0700, Jacob Proffitt wrote: >I have begun collecting these [RS Magazine]. They are a gold mine of = wonderful >information about our past. They combine some really fine original work= by >women with some interesting philosophical and literary analysis. They = look >to me like they could constitute a kind of graduate degree for women. = I'm >sad such quality material isn't available to LDS women today. Speaking of which, can anyone tell me a) how long the magazine was in publication and/or b) how many issues in total we're looking at? We inherited a bundle of them from my great-grandmother, and got more when = our church library cleaned out its shelves. But I don't know how complete a collection it is. > Since I'm by >nature a computer geek, I've been toying with cataloging the ones I = have. >It's yet another task on my already impossible list of things I should = do if >I get the time... Don't get me started on *that*. If it's true that the shoemaker's = children go barefoot, it's even more true that the database programmer's wife has = no book database.... :) Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 12 Jan 2001 13:17:42 -0700 On Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:28:07 -0700, mcnandon wrote: >Michael, I liked your comments. I have read that the subconscious has = no >*conscience.* Because of this, I have wondered why we feel = uncomfortable or >guilty when we misbehave in our dreams. Training. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 12 Jan 2001 13:25:01 -0700 > Give them more credit - the media committie is made up of > real people making > real decisions - we shouldn't treat them like some monolithic > entity that can be > easily discarded because they aren't real people. I'll let you and others give them more credit. But as for me, as each day passes, I feel to thank God that I never followed through on my once strongly held desire to return and teach at BYU. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 12 Jan 2001 14:18:55 -0700 Ivan Wolfe wrote: >Give them more credit - the media committie is made up of real >people = making >real decisions - we shouldn't treat them like some monolithic >entity = that can be >easily discarded because they aren't real people. Quite so. I stand corrected and in need of apology and repentance. = Obviously, I judged the people who created the document in question. In my defense, let me say that we can really only base a response to a = text on the text itself, and this text was a disaster. I didn't see much = evidence of a more liberal bent anyplace in it. What I saw was a full-out = attack on contemporary media. I'm glad to hear that a more tempered = document might become the final outcome. I cheerfully and hopefully await = it. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: RE: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 12 Jan 2001 17:32:06 -0600 >This idea that literature shouldn't disturb you is nonsense. Aren't the >scriptures disturbing (at the same time that they are comforting) to >sinners? Being disturbed can be a good thing, if it leads to the changing >of a life. >Thom I think we, as a culture, are still having the same problems that the Puritans had. (Remember _The Crucible_.) Things may not be simply as black and white as we might wish. When I went to Utah State University (much different from BYU), I was dating a girl who was required in one of her classes to watch the film, "The Breakfast Club," which just happens to be rated-R. She refused and the instructor wouldn't to budge on the requirement, so she got a zero on the assignment. She felt proud for not compromising her values. But she missed one of the greatest movies of the 80's, as well as one of the movies that has affected my life the most. It was a little rough in places, but it couldn't have been done any other way. It didn't have the rough parts just to have them, as many movies do. There was a specific point, and the movie hit it hard. "The Breakfast Club" remains one of my all-time favorite films (among many others), and I dare say that she missed out immensely. Now I can appreciate her strong will to "stay straight," but you know, life isn't always "straight." We are taught that there must be opposition in all things, as life is full of opposition (and it needs to be that way). To ignore opposition is just as wrong as to embrace it. Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 12 Jan 2001 15:29:05 -0800 (PST) Michael Rawson reported on KUTV News Jan. 5 that Hatch had issued a statement saying that rough elements in the film were gratuitous and that he was sorry he had participated in it. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ethan Skarstedt Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 12 Jan 2001 21:45:58 -0800 I am a firm believer in the idea that truth can be found anywhere. There are of course some sources that so predominantly spew forth filth that it's better to let the nuggets of truth that tumble out along with the sludge pass by ungathered. The line between the two situations: too much filth to warrant the search for the nugget and too much truth to warrant foregoing the search, is a wavy one. It is, frankly, imossible for us mortals to draft a document that can be an accurate guide in all situations. Therefore, it is necessary, as Mr. Samuelson points out, to judge the material on a case by case basis, the most efficient way to do this being to let the professors make their own decision and handle the objections in the same manner, case by case, through the same process that is used everywhere to handle compaints, the one Mr. Samuelson describes. And what will the criteria that the professors use to judge be, one might ask? In the case of professors at BYU the answer is simple. The same criteria that any member of the LDS faith would use, the guidance given in scripture and over the pulpit, etc... Simple answer. Unfortunately, from the general tone and content of the document it sounds like the "management" at BYU believe themselves to be far more responsible and moral than the general faculty and must therefore draft some kind of specific guideline, their judgement being so much more reliable than those whom they manage. This is also a standard tactic of people who are afraid of taking personal responsibility but are nevertheless required to make decisions; just do something so silly that it will be ignored by those below you but to which you can point as evidence of having done something. (This also comes in handy when the complaints arrive as it turns everyone below you into a convenient scapegoat) The two attitudes, holier than thou and fear of personal responsibility, are often found together. Too bad the administration and bureaucracy at BYU is absolutely riddled with them. Ethan Skarstedt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 13 Jan 2001 01:07:46 -0700 Brown wrote: > Where was it that I read that Freud said it was the UNCONSCIOUS? Is there > some way to tell the difference? Yes, I've been told there is technically a difference between the "unconscious" and the "subconscious." Personally, I'm not sure what, nor am I sure I buy the difference. Without noticing it until someone pointed it out to me, I have adopted the term "subconscious" almost exclusively. I think I "subconsciously" recognized that I didn't agree with the label "unconscious." I don't think the part of the mind we are talking about is totally UNconscious. It's not out there in some distant cognitive limbo. We are aware of its operation in certain ways. I think it operates _below_ the conscious level--SUBconsciously--and has a consciousness of its own of sorts, just no volition or value judgment. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Literature in Relief Society Date: 13 Jan 2001 12:53:47 -0700 What run to be resurrecting the R.S. Magazine! I am an antique who actually got my start there! I tricked them into publishing my very first poem ever published by sending it from Quebec so that they thought I was a Canadian sister! Then I went on to publish stories there! About old ladies! So that when I met Vesta Crawford, she said, "Oh, I thought you were much older!" Ah, memories! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Writer Orson Scott Card Says This Tour His Last: Hatrack River Press Release Date: 13 Jan 2001 20:30:28 -0600 River Press Release 6Jan01 A2 [From Mormon-News] LDS Writer Orson Scott Card Says This Tour His Last PASADENA, CALIFORNIA -- Feeling the effects of age and family responsibilities, LDS writer Orson Scott Card announced that his current book tour will be his last. While Card will still visit bookstores occasionally for book signings, he says this will be the last time that he takes a trip to do a string of book signings. Card also announced that he is planning a science fiction convention around his Ender's Game novels, starting in the summer of 2002. In his announcement, Card cited his age (nearly fifty), the effect the tours have on his family, and the effect the tours have on his writing as factors that led to his decision. "I enjoy the actual signings, the chance to meet those who read my books and hear what they care about and look for in the work I do," says Card. "It's the surrounding problems, like jet lag, lost sleep, lack of real exercise, and being away from home, that are taking too high a toll." Card also said that he is in a position where he doesn't have to sacrifice being at home when his six-year-old comes home from school, and the tour keeps him from that for a period of more than two weeks. In addition, he finds that he can't write anything substantial for weeks before a tour and about a week afterwards. "Presumably, if given a choice, everyone would rather have more books than more autographing sessions," read a written press release sent out by Card. But Card also pleased fans with the announcement that he plans to start a series of conventions centered around his "Ender's Game" books. EnderCon I is tentatively scheduled for the summer of 2002, the 25th anniversary of the publication of the novelet version of "Ender's Game" in the science fiction magazine Analog. Source: OSC Announces Last Signing Tour OSC Press Release 6Jan01 A2 http://www.hatrack.com/news-reviews/2001-01-06.shtml >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 15 Jan 2001 13:08:46 -0700 How dare an institution such as BYU, claiming to be a place of higher learning, presume to issue arbitrary standards that restrict the "academic" pursuits of its educators? What an undignified and unseemly imposition! These institutional bureaucrats want nothing more than to reserve all the perqs to themselves. Of course we all recognize that BYU should operate under exactly the same rules as all other universities. And we laud the "academic freedom" that affords professors at all other universities absolute freedom to do and say whatever they wish without restriction or censure. --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 15 Jan 2001 14:18:25 -0700 On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:29:05 -0800 (PST), R.W. Rasband wrote: >Michael Rawson reported on KUTV News Jan. 5 that Hatch >had issued a statement saying that rough elements in >the film were gratuitous and that he was sorry he had >participated in it. KNRS ("Family news radio") on Jan. 4th played clips of Hatch saying that = the film had a hard subject and it dealt with it harshly and that he was = proud to have appeared in it. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Literature in Relief Society Date: 15 Jan 2001 14:38:44 -0700 On Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:53:47 -0700, Brown wrote: >What run to be resurrecting the R.S. Magazine! I am an antique who = actually >got my start there! I tricked them into publishing my very first poem = ever >published by sending it from Quebec so that they thought I was a = Canadian >sister! Then I went on to publish stories there! About old ladies! So = that >when I met Vesta Crawford, she said, "Oh, I thought you were much = older!" >Ah, memories! Marilyn Brown How interesting! In digging for my shoe polish kit yesterday, I came = across my collection of R.S. Magazine from Melissa's Grandma. They span 1953 through 1958. Melissa made the discovery that the earliest one we have (1941) is volume *28*. The magazine apparently started in 1914 (and is stated as such in the front) and continued almost 50 years. I'd have to = do some research to find out, but I'd bet it stands a reasonable chance of being the earliest/longest running women's magazine. If anyone is closer= to research facilities than I am and want to track down some statistics, I'd= be interested in where it stands historically. The publishing data in front of VOL. 28 NO. 3 (March, 1941) states: Published Monthly by the General Board of Relief Society Editorial and Business Offices: 28 Bishop's Building, Salt Lake City, = Utah, Phone 3-2741, Ex. 243. Subscription Price: $1.00 a year; foreign, $1.00 = a year; payable in advance. Single copy, 10c. The Magazine is not sent = after subscription expires. Renew promptly so that no copies will be missed. Report change of address at once, giving both old and new address. Entered as second-class matter February 18, 1914, at the Post Office, = Salt Lake City, Utah, under the Act of March 3, 1879. Acceptance for mailing = at special rate of postage provided for in section 1103, Act of October 8, 1917, authorized June 29, 1918. Stamps should accompany manuscripts for their return. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 15 Jan 2001 15:29:14 -0700 Jim Cobabe wrote: > > Of course we all recognize that BYU should operate under exactly the same > rules as all other universities. And we laud the "academic freedom" that > affords professors at all other universities absolute freedom to do and say > whatever they wish without restriction or censure. No, it should operate under real rules that make sense rather than arbitrary based on fear of the media wherein BYU student are treated like children rather than the adults they are. Either Joseph's teaching correct principles while the people govern themsleves means something or it doesn't. And please make a list of any university where a professor can say whatever he/she wishes without restriction or censure? I know of none. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Literature in Relief Society Date: 15 Jan 2001 21:27:21 -0700 On Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:53:47 -0700, Brown wrote: >What run to be resurrecting the R.S. Magazine! I am an antique who = actually >got my start there! I tricked them into publishing my very first poem = ever >published by sending it from Quebec so that they thought I was a = Canadian >sister! Then I went on to publish stories there! About old ladies! So = that >when I met Vesta Crawford, she said, "Oh, I thought you were much = older!" Marilyn, that is so funny! I love everything about these magazines. I think some of it is that "antique" aspect, but mostly it's astonishing to discover the extent of the subjects it covered. Poetry, short fiction, scholarly essays, lessons...and frequent articles talking about the same issues that face Mormons today. While we're on the subject: In one of the contest issues, a poem by = Alice Morrey Bailey won second runner up. I know this name, but I can't = remember from where or why. Either she's someone who publishes in Mormon circles = or she's from our old ward in Vancouver, but it's driving me crazy. Can = anyone save my sanity? Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic Date: 15 Jan 2001 22:00:30 -0700 I agree with you about the "subconscious and unconscious," Michael, and to think I have felt forced to say "unconscious" all these years because of Jung! Well, I guess we can just boot him off the screen! MB - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] WATSON, _Mormonism, the Faith of the Twenty First Century_ (Review) Date: 16 Jan 2001 07:16:08 GMT Review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Edward K. Watson, "Mormonism, the Faith of the Twenty First Century",=20= Vol. 1 1998, Liahona Publications, 437pp + endnotes + index + Scripture=20 reference guide=20 Hardback, $39.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle Before commenting on the book, I'd like to supply a few statistics about= =20 the book: 1. The Introduction is 91 pages long. 2. The list of abbreviations is 21 pages long (including reference work= s=20 cited) 3. The list of definitions is 4 pages long. And all this comes before the book proper begins. =20 Additionally, the blurb on the back flyleaf makes the following=20 statement: "Edward Watson uses forty Bible versions and more than sixty Bible=20 Dictionaries, Hebrew-English and Greek English Lexicons all of which are= =20 from the leading non-Mormon scholars in examining the usage and=20 interpretation of pertinent biblical words and passages. He also draws = from Kabbalistic writings, Rabbinical literature, the Pseudepigrapha,=20= Apocrypha, the Church Fathers, Philo, Josephus, Dead Sea Scrolls, Targum= s=20 and even theoretical physics and modern cosmology in presenting Mormon=20= thought in a logical and biblical manner." The point? It appears Bro. Watson has been very, very busy. No one can= =20 accuse him of being lazy in his research. Having said all that, let's get into the book proper. "Mormonism" is=20= just one of a projected set of volumes designed to explain, and defend, = the faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. =20 Encyclopedic in nature, and thoroughly apologetic in design, It grabs a= =20 question, turns it upside down and backwards, and squeezes every piece o= f=20 information possible out of it. Volume 1 comprises three sections, each dealing with a broad topic. =20= Section 1, "Heavenly Father," explores the nature of the Father. 18=20= subdivisions approach the issue from a different perspective. #10, for= =20 example, asks the question, "Can God be Called Man?" Many scriptures=20= follow, along with a rationale for answering the question either in the = affirmative or the negative. The following subdivision, #11, "Many Earl= y=20 Christians Believed God Has a Physical Anthropomorphic Body," cites earl= y=20 church fathers in their support of this idea. Subsection 14, "A Tale of two Cosmologies: Multiversal and Universal," i= s=20 a fascinating discussion of the nature of the universe, time, space, and= =20 other concepts. Section 2, "Jesus Christ," discusses the nature and person of the Son. = Section 3, "The Holy Ghost," finishes out the discussion of the Godhead = with an extended discussion of Unitarianism vs. Trinitarianism. Clearly, this isn't a book one just sits and reads and pooliside. It is= =20 the kind of book you go to when you need support and reference on a=20 specific question regarding LDS theology, providing tools that the=20 average member will find useful. Very intriguing are two opening statements, one called "Warning to=20 Mormons" and the other "Warning to Non-Mormons." The first is a simple = two-paragraph warns members not to depend on this book, or on scholarshi= p=20 at all, to produce a testimony. He understands that tools like this boo= k=20 may lead toward self-righteousness and pride as members present their=20= critics with strong arguments. This is not his design. The "Warning to Non-Mormons" is much more exhaustive. In five strong an= d=20 non-compromising questions, Watson urges non-Mormon readers to "be hones= t=20 with yourselves and with God," embracing those ideas which are=20 demonstrably true and provable. I thoroughly enjoyed perusing this volume. I've found myself turning to= =20 it for clear, sound discussions of questions concerning Mormon theology.= =20 And while Watson uses hundreds of sources and tackles some very difficul= t=20 questions, his method is designed for comprehension and appeal to the=20= non-scholar. For example, pages 148-188 contain an extended discussion of the theodic= y=20 question, titled "God and the Problem of Evil"? An example of the plain= =20 discussion follows: "Mormonism teaches we are actually uncreated 'intelligences.' This=20 central portion of our being is the very core of who we are. Our=20 'Intelligence,' the foundation of man's spirit wasn't created by God."=20= (p. 157) "Mormonism views God as working with self-existent intelligences. He is= =20 thus limited. He can be all-good but the evil in the world is not his=20= responsibility. He is simply doing his best being limited by our=20 free-will, the pre-existent nature of Good and Evil and by the causality= =20 of the universe." (p. 159) And while some contemporary Mormon literature works its way around some = of these difficult issues, Watson attacks them head-on, neither dodging = issues nor spouting cliches to support them. I'm very glad to have this book, and highly recommend it to serious=20 students who will appreciate a major work of research and scholarship. = I anxiously await further volumes in this series. The publisher, Liahon= a=20 Publications, lists an address at 41-7188 Edmonds St. Burnaby, B.C.=20 Canada V3N 4X6. They also have a website at www.liahonapublications.com= . --=20 Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 16 Jan 2001 10:41:08 -0500 Jim Cobabe wrote: ... And we laud the "academic freedom" that affords professors at all other universities absolute freedom to do and say whatever they wish without restriction or censure. Jim, There are restrictions everywhere. I teach at an institution where academic freedom is respected and fought for by teachers and administration alike. We are partners in this, not adversaries, which separates us from BYU, I think. But even here in New York, a bastion of liberality and strong unions, there are clear boundaries. We do not have "absolute freedom to do and say whatever [we] wish without restriction or censure." While the hyperbole and sarcasm from your post are not lost on me, I'm not sure they help my distant colleagues at the Y who are struggling to (a) do the job they were hired to do to the best of their abilities and (c) compromising their curriculum due to political in-fighting over who can best goose-step in unison. Because I majored in Theater and Cinema at BYU, the current debate hits close to home. Film is sooooo unfairly treated due to that stinkwad Hayes Commission and its successors. How about if we applied the MPAA ratings to books and plays, the Bible and the Book of Mormon, Anatomy textbooks, Art textbooks, and then made the policy universal at BYU--No R-rated literature of any kind. Let's see how those other faculty would react when all their resources for teaching hit the "Banned" list. Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Year in Review, Pt. 1 Date: 17 Jan 2001 01:57:39 +0900 What is a cultural genre without a year-in-review? And what is a year-in-review without a largely ignorant reviewer? That's me! So here is my own personal year in review of Mormon Literature, based on what I've read and the reviews and notices that I have seen here on AML. I'll start with the novels. While I haven't read a stand- out, knock-me-down great Mormon novel this year, there were several very very good ones that were both challenging and faithful, probably as many as I've ever seen in a year. Here are my four favorites so far: Margaret Blair Young and Darius Gray's One More River to Cross (Deseret). This is a momentous book, probably the most important book about Mormonism published in the last few years. As a novel, there are a few problems, but this really isn't a novel anyway. With a few exceptions, the writing style is typical MBY excellence. I'm going to talk about it in more detail in a review one of these days. Alan Mitchell's Angel of the Danube (CFI/Bonneville) What a fun, fun book. It is a great depiction of missionary life's ups and downs in 1970s Vienna Austria. The writing is great, the funny parts funny, the characters interesting, and the use of German folklore gives the story an unexpected dimension. The protagonist's introspection is engrossing and credible, without taking away from the crisply moving plot. I'm afraid that some casual readers will be put off by all the tomfoolery (but not irreverence) that the missionaries get involved in, but I'm going to give my copy to my very straight-laced bishop friend who served in Austria in the early 80s anyway, I think he'll enjoy it. Eric Samuelsen's Singled Out (Cornerstone) It was much earlier in the year when I read this, and I never did write a review, so it is somewhat fuzzy in my memory now. But I remember that I loved it. Great, great characters, and great dialogue (as befits a novelization of a play). We get to know characters at the margins of Mormon society, like a divorcee, a new member who retains many of her party-girl mannerisms, and a scared single mother on the run, and we enjoy discovering their Christ- like natures as well as their quirkiness and faults. Dean Hughes's As Long As I Have You (Deseret) This is the fifth and final installment of the Children of the Promise series, which I have loved from start to finish. In this volume, the surviving members of the Thomas and Stoltz families finally are reunited in Salt Lake City after World War II. But it isn't all a celebration, as the individual family members have to deal with the horror and guilt associated with fighting in the war, unease over profiting from the war, racism, and a lot more. This series is in many ways as "important" as One More River to Cross. Both are revisionist historical fiction, reminding us of a portion of our history not often remarked upon. And like Standing on the Promises, racism and intolerance, including among the mainstream Mormon culture, are key elements of the book. Hughes should be applauded for not ending the series on a self-congratulatory, chauvinistic note. Of course, that is what I expected of him. In fact, I think the series is the most significant anti-war work that Mormonism has ever produced. If you want symbolism or postmodern irony, these aren't the books for you. The characters sometimes seem a little more 1990s than 1940s, and there is so much going on that the very difficult issues, like Alex's gradual recovery from his war traumas, could use some deeper exploration. But Hughes is a fantastic writer, with a great sense of his historical period at the family and personal level, tackling some difficult themes with credibility and skill. Curtis Taylor's The Dinner Club (Forward). This is close behind the first four as an honorable mention. It appears to be basically self-published, and could use some editing. Still, it is an engrossing description of a man suddenly beset with a truck-load of troubles, centering on his wife's abandonment of the family, and the spiritual transformation towards which the experiences lead him. Also, there are several I haven't read yet that I have heard very good reviews of and hope to read. These include John Bennion's Falling Toward Heaven (Signature), Marilyn Brown's The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass (CFI), Orson Scott Card's Sarah (Deseret), and Benson Parkinson's Into the Field (Aspen). That's a big heapin' helping of quality Mormon literature, all of which challenge our assumptions and prejudices, while remaining essentially Mormon. How have the different publishers done? Deseret: This is the first full year of the mega-Deseret, after the merger with Bookcraft. So, we have a traditionally conservative publisher, sponsored by our very (in terms of public relations matters) conservative Church, which comes close to dominating the market, at least in sales. Well, surprisingly, Deseret made some bold choices, and put out a good deal of quality material. Clearly it has made a commitment to publishing Mormon- themed fiction, and someone over there is making some good decisions. What stands out the most, of course, is Brown and Gray's One More River to Cross, the first of the "Standing on the Promises" series about Black members of the Church. It took a lot of guts to publish this series, which deals head-on with the prejudices held in the membership about blacks and the myths surrounding the Priesthood ban. While Joseph Smith is portrayed very positively (rightly so, apparently), other revered members are depicted with a variety of shades of ignorance, condescension, and bigotry. And it can not help but get tougher in the next volume, which will probably cover the period in which Brigham Young clearly states the Priesthood ban. I hope Deseret Books knows what is coming, and won't loose their nerve with the series. As I said, it is among the most important things they are doing now. Also, they managed to get nationally-known Orson Scott Card to write a second work of historical fiction based on the Old Testament for the smaller LDS market (Sarah), with two more scheduled for the future. Dean Hughes published the fifth and final installment of the fantastic "Children of the Promise" series, and Robert Farrell Smith published the third installment of his funny "Trust" series. With Kathryn Kidd apparently finding the "Guide to . . .:" business more profitable, Smith is our reigning humorous fiction practitioner. Also they published Tom Plummer's third collection of essays, Second Wind: Variations on a Theme of Growing Older. And in juvenile fiction, besides the annual Weyland book, C. B. Andersen's The Book of Mormon Sleuth is apparently pretty good. Meanwhile Gerald Lund, their main fiction moneymaker, came out with two books, one about the handcart companies which was pretty poorly written, and the first of a new big series of historical fiction about Christ and His Apostles. Outside the literature world, they have come out with a wonderful edition of the Book of Mormon for the family (I forget what it is called exactly), with the basic text supplemented by illustrations, definitions of difficult words and concepts, and other useful stuff. It is a beautiful book, which I hope to buy one of these days. Which brings me to my last point, the covers. Apparently they've hired some skilled people in the design department, because the covers and other design aspects are way ahead of what was coming out of Deseret and Bookcraft a few years ago. The beautiful cover for One More River to Cross is a good example. Covenant: Covenant is the biggest independent Mormon publisher, and they sure did put out a lot of fiction titles this year. In fact two of their most popular authors, Rachael Nunes and Anita Stansfield, published three novels each! Yikes. Covenant also took a page out of Deseret Book's book by beginning a multi- volume historical fiction series, this one based on the Book of Mormon, by David Wooley. I read the first chapter, and the writing is only fair to poor, so we'll see if it does well. I haven't read any of the other Covenant titles, they don't seem to be what I am interested in. Signature: Our main "alternative" press was relatively inactive in the literature front this year. Usually they put out a couple of literary works a year, but this year they only produced John Bennion's novel Falling Toward Heaven. I have read the three excerpts that have appeared over the last nine years, and it looks like it will be a challenging, interesting book. Perhaps I should also count William James Adams's Sanpete Tales: Humorous Folktales from Central Utah. Anyway, things should pick up from Signature next year, with three titles scheduled for publication: something called Madame Ridiculous and Lady Sublime by Elouise Bell (essays, I assume) in January, House of James and Other Stories by Lewis Horne in April-June, and Heroes of Nature, a novel by Margaret Young in October. Cornerstone: Richard Hopkins' new publishing house is off to a pretty good start, with Eric Samuelsen's great novel Singled Out, and Linda Adams and Michael Ritchey's speculative novels, which have gotten fairly good reviews here on the AML-list. Now Cornerstone has absorbed Horizon, and I have high hopes that we can see some more good things from them. Cedar Fort International: CFI has always published pretty bottom-of-the-barrel adventure novels, but they published two excellent novels this year. Apparently their sudden improvement in taste is due to Marilyn Brown's new partnership in the organization, as the first novel is Brown's piece about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which Richard Cracroft gave a glowing review, and Alan Mitchell's great first novel Angel of the Danube, which won an honorable mention in Marilyn's unpublished novel contest last year. Trends: Historical fiction. With the big success of Lund's Work and the Glory series, multi-volume, hardback-only historical fiction novels practically dominate the shelves of Mormon fiction. Deseret still rules the roost, with Hughes wrapping up his Children of the Promise series, and Lund and Young/Gray starting up new ones. Covenant also is jumping in with the Wooley's Book of Mormon series, and Marilyn Brown continues to mine the genre for interesting things. Last days. Again, following the success of the "Left Behind" series, it only makes sense that we will see more Mormon novels set in the last days. Actually there was only one new one in 2000, Linda Adams's Prodigal Journey, the first in a series. But there are two other recent series with new volumes scheduled soon, Pam Blackwell (Ephriam's Seed) and Kenneth Tarr (The Last Days, CFI). Missionary novels. They were all written before God's Army came out, so the film wasn't the cause of the trend, but it was serendipitous that there were three novels about the missionary experience (and its aftermath) came out the same year as the popular movie. Parkinson's Into the Field is the sequel to The MTC, and follows the missionaries we met in the first novel to France. Mitchell's Angel of the Danube is set mostly in Vienna, with the last part covering the protagonist's first months home from the mission. Bennion's Falling Toward Heaven starts off with the protagonist serving in Houston, and then moves into his post-mission life. Young and Gray's One More River to Cross also has a few chapters about Elijah Abel's mission during the Kirtland period. In the national presses, Richard Paul Evans and James Michael Pratt continue to rake it in with their popular weepies. One more thing, there was no major work of fiction about Mormons by an "outsider" or even an "insider/outsider" (or Jack Mormon, or dunno what to call them, someone with a Mormon background that has publicly become estranged from the Church to one degree or another, someone like Kirn, Van Wagoner, or Judith Freeman). Here is a list of the major novels from the year of which I am aware: Adams, Linda. Prodigal Journey. Cornerstone. First in a new Last Days series. Arnold, Marilyn. Sky Full of Ribbons. Covenant. Bennion, John. Falling Toward Heaven, Signature. Brown, Marilyn. The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass. CFI. Card, Orson Scott. Sarah. Deseret. Evans, Richard Paul. The Carousel. Simon and Schuster. Gardner, Lynn. Jade and Jeopardy. Covenant. Heimerdinger, Chris. A Light in the Storm. Covenant. Hughes, Dean. As Long as I Have You. Vol. 5, Deseret. Children of the Promise series. Jolley, JoAnn . Promises of the Heart. Covenant. Lund, Gerald. Fire of the Covenant. Deseret. ----, Fishers of Men, Deseret. First in the Kingdom and the Crown series, about Christ's ministry. Marcum, Robert. White Out. Deseret. McCloud, Susan Evans. Kirtland. Deseret. Mitchell, Alan. Angel of the Danube. CFI/Bonneville. Nunes, Rachel Ann. Love on the Run, A Greater Love, Tomorrow and Always. Covenant. Parkinson, Benson. Into the Field, Aspen. Pearson, Carol Lynn. Will You Still Be My Daughter. Gibbs Smith. Pratt, James Michael. The Lighthouse Keeper. St. Martin's Press. Ritchey, Michael. Disoriented. Cornerstone. Rowley, Brent. Missing Children: Light Traveler series. Was at Covenant, then #3 self-published by Golden Wings Enterprises. Samuelsen, Eric. Singled Out. Cornerstone. Prose version of the play How We're Wired. Smith, Robert Farrell. Love's Labors Tossed: Trust and the Final Fling. Deseret. Stansfield, Anita. A Star in Winter, Towers of Brierley, Gables Against the Sky. Covenant. Taylor, Curtis. The Dinner Club. Foreword Press. Wooley, David G. Pillar of Fire. Covenant. Vol. 1 of The Promised Land series, historical fiction about the Book of Mormon. Nine novels projected. Young, Margaret Blair and Darius Gray. One More River to Cross. Bookcraft. First of the Standing on the Promises series Later in the week I'll do posts on short stories, plays, essays, and young adult fiction. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: RE: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 16 Jan 2001 10:52:31 -0700 (MST) > I'll let you and others give them more credit. But as for me, as each day > passes, I feel to thank God that I never followed through on my once > strongly held desire to return and teach at BYU. > > Thom I rather enjoy BYU _ i know this isn't arelated topic to AML - but since you feel it is okay to insult BYU - I would like to defend it. If you don't like it - that's fine. But I enjoy BYU - it's not perfect - but after visitng other colleges and being treated like a reactionary Aryan Nationalist, it's nice to be somewhere where I can actually take the gospel seriously. I'd like to write more if I had the time - but the people who drafted the media document were for the most part willing to let the professors decide on their own what they wanted to do and use. That does not sound like the right-wing fascists you seem to think they are. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Turk325@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 16 Jan 2001 13:05:25 EST In a message dated 1/16/01 8:25:39 AM, ThomDuncan@prodigy.net writes: << No, it should operate under real rules that make sense rather than arbitrary [ones] based on fear of the media wherein BYU student are treated like children rather than the adults they are. Either Joseph's teaching correct principles while the people govern themselves means something or it doesn't. And please make a list of any university where a professor can say whatever he/she wishes without restriction or censure? I know of none.>> Nice comment. Kurt. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 16 Jan 2001 18:46:44 -0600 So, I take it nobody knows the answer to my question(s) here? Thanks, Linda At 12:05 PM 1/10/01, you wrote: >Does anyone out there know whether the 2000 BYU Lewis Playwriting Contest >for Women has been judged yet? I know it was delayed for a host of >reasons, but it is January now and the contest is normally judged around >August. Entries for each year are usually due in March and it's usually >announced by now (I usually see the announcement here come through on the >List.) Will the contest be held in 2001 at all? > >Yes, there's personal interest here--I had a play entered. > >Thanks for any further information you may have. >Linda Adams >adamszoo@sprintmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] Liahona Publishers (was: WATSON, _Mormonism_) Date: 16 Jan 2001 22:30:43 GMT Folks, I've gotten some updated information on the Watson review posted = today. I hope the listowner can fix the review with the new internet=20= information. Thanks. --=20 Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com > (1) To find out more about the book visit Edward Watson's personal > homepage at http://members.home.net/ewatson/ . (The > www.liahonapublications.com website has been taken down because of > disagreement with the domain host over the payment method. Consequentl= y, > one won't be able to access it.) > (2) Autographed or dedicated copies of the book can be purchased > directly from Edward Watson by contacting him at ewatson@home.com. S&H= > and taxes are waived for direct orders. The book can also be purchased= > from Amazon.com, any LDS bookstore that deals with Granite Distributio= n, > and any major bookstore chain such as Borders and Barnes & Noble that= > deals with Partners West. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Turk325@aol.com Subject: [AML] Liahona Publishers (was: WATSON, _Mormonism_) Date: 16 Jan 2001 13:10:28 EST In a message dated 1/16/01 8:28:58 AM, jeff.needle@general.com writes: << I anxiously await further volumes in this series. The publisher, Liahona Publications, lists an address at 41-7188 Edmonds St. Burnaby, B.C. Canada V3N 4X6. They also have a website at www.liahonapublications.com. >> I tried the web address three times and each time got back "No such address." Any suggestions? Kurt. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: plus two Subject: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 16 Jan 2001 12:28:40 -0800 (PST) The few experiences I have had in writing dialogue (two or three screenplays, a couple of short stories)have exposed that, for me, this is the most difficult part of a creative work. When I do write dialogue the result always seems shallow, or false---it doesn't ring of authenticity. Perhaps that's why the screenplays worked best---with those I had a collaborator so we could bounce phrases of each other and try and pick what sounded most 'natural.' But I'm not here to whine about what I find difficult---that's what writers groups are for. What I would like is some help finding examples of well-written dialogue in Mormon fiction. I especially would love to hear of examples that are not pioneer, or provincial Utah speakers, but rather are post WWII/contemporary and/or educated/urban/suburban Mormons speaking. Anything come to mind? Or to be more general: Does anyone have any theories or observations of how 'contemporary' Mormons speak? What do they speak about? Do they exhibit any linguistic patterns that mark them as Mormon? ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] I'm So Proud! Date: 17 Mar 2001 13:30:08 -0500 Hey all, for those who live in NYC, a friend of mine is booked to give an hour presentation in New York City at an agency called Housing Works. Housing Works is a social agency for people living w/AIDS and HIV. Her name is Margie Shaheed and she is a poet who has published several books and works quite a bit with the community. She has bowled me over (and thus why I'm announcing this) by asking my permission to open her reading with a poem I wrote, _The Walking Wounded_. Of course I said yes! Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 17 Jan 2001 11:19:01 -0700 >Does anyone have any theories or observations of how >'contemporary' Mormons speak? What do they speak >about? Do they exhibit any linguistic patterns that >mark them as Mormon? >~~William Morris One thing I've noticed in the 30 years I've been in the Church is a particular voice pattern when they read Scriptures. The voice starts low, then continues rising until it drops on the last syllable of the line. On the next line, the pattern starts again. It's a bit mind-numbing, but for all I know, it may be common to many people not accustomed to the concept of trying to read aloud with feeling. In the Southern Baptist Church that I came from, Scriptures were read with great feeling, especially the hellfire-and-damnation passages! We loved those! What a Baptist preacher could do with Second Nephi! In general, I don't think you'll notice so much a common linguistic pattern, since that is so influenced by education level and regional dialect, as a noticeable underlying belief system that comes through in a person's communication. I can't help noticing that the speech of many people today is tinged--well, drenched, actually--in cynicism, sarcasm, and despondency, while the speech of many of the Mormons I know reflects a firm belief that things will turn out all right in the end, no matter how long it takes and even if matters won't get straightened out until the next life. The fact of that life after this one has a soothing effect on despair. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History (was: Year in Review) Date: 17 Jan 2001 13:18:06 -0700 I am always flattered when I'm confused with Marilyn Brown. Andrew, you got my name write in the first part of your post, but gave me some color in the second part. Actually, Darius Gray's wife, Leslee, is white. His neighbor, on first meeting the Grays, said, "So you're black and she's white, and together you're the Grays." He thought it very funny. I appreciate Andrew so much. It's clear he actually reads the material he's reviewing. One of the most frustrating things as a writer is to read a review wherein the reviewer obviously did a very cursory read (if that). Marty Napersak, at the SL Tribune, reviewed the book somewhat less favorably than either Jeff Needle or Andrew Hall, and summarized the plot as involving Elijah Abel's and Jane James's marriage. In order to have come up with that, he would have had to completely miss about six chapters--wherein the relationships between Elijah and his wife MARY ANN ADAMS, and Jane Manning and her husband ISAAC JAMES are described. Not sure what to do when that happens. Write the Trib and request a second reviewer who will actually read the text? Ignore it and hope others ignore it too? Anyway, the reviews on this list are always done with great integrity--even when the reviewers recognize flaws in the writing. (And Andrew, I am eager to hear your views of the novel's flaws, since we are still working on the second installment and could maybe improve some aspects of it.) Now, speaking of Marilyn Brown: At the AML conference, Ron Carter suggested by implication that maybe she shouldn't have published a book about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. He asked the rhetorical question, "Do we really need to review some aspects of our history?" I find that troubling. I find it especially troubling today, since I just got a note from a friend announcing that she is leaving the Church. The historical problems AND THE COVER-UPS just got too much for her. Notice that I am linking this subject to the list via my own work and my twin's (Marilyn Brown's). Help me out here. The subject of what we should or should not be writing, being Mormons, is a frequent topic of discussion. Can we have a little more of it? I'm also extremely interested in how you individually have dealt with the Church's historical problems and held onto your testimonies, and how you've helped others through their own problems. If it gets too personal (or if Jonathan feels it's off-topic), please e-mail me individually. I need to hear from you SOON. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: [AML] Website and Reviews Archive Update Date: 17 Jan 2001 14:22:28 -0700 Chris has updated the information in the Irreantum section of the AML website (www.xmission.com/~aml). And we have made some general changes, such as updating the staff list and removing old events. I have also updated the reviews archive with the following new reviews: No. Title Author Reviewer --- -------------------- ------------------- -------------- 408 Sarah Orson Scott Card Rose Green 409 The Passageway Laurel Mouritsen Jeff Needle 410 Angel of the Danube Alan Rex Mitchell Ruth Starkman 411 Angel of the Danube Alan Rex Mitchell Andrew R Hall 412 Mormonism Edward K. Watson Jeff Needle Statistics ---------- I thought I would look at the number of reviews we have posted each year since the inception of the list: Year Reviews Posted ---- -------------- 1995 41 Average posts per year: 66 1996 56 Total posts: 395 1997 93 1998 71 1999 59 2000 75 Because some posts include multiple reviews, the total posts is lower than the number of reviews listed in the archive. My challenge: In this new century, Mormon publishers will publish more titles than in any previous year. Lets try to review more than 100 titles in this first year of the new century. 2001 Challenge: Reviews Posted 3, Reviews to meet challenge 97 -- Terry L Jeffress AML Webmaster and AML-List Review Archivist - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 17 Jan 2001 14:35:31 -0700 On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 12:28:40PM -0800, plus two wrote: > Does anyone have any theories or observations of how > 'contemporary' Mormons speak? What do they speak > about? Do they exhibit any linguistic patterns that > mark them as Mormon? Oh my heck, let me think. You know, I just can't think of even one single instance of Mormons talking different from the genitiles in the mission field. -- Terry L Jeffress AML Webmaster and AML-List Review Archivist - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] ROGERS, _A Call to Russia_; Abrahamic Tests Date: 17 Jan 2001 14:45:32 -0800 (PST) I am currently reading Thomas F. Rogers' missionary journal "A Call to Russia" (published by BYU Studies) and am quite impressed. Will probably review it for the list when I finish. For now, let me just say that it combines great intelligence and style with precious spiritual insight--it's probably already a classic in the field of LDS missionary literature. Joseph Smith once said something to the effect that anyone who wants to inherit the celestial kingdom has to be tried even as Abraham was tried when he was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. I interpret this to mean that each of us will be asked to endure something that risks putting our entire worldview at stake. (These tests are especially hard for intellectuals, who pride themselves on rationality and being able to figure things out. The whole point of the test is to try one's fidelity, not one's intellect.) If I may be presumptuous, I would guess that Rogers' "Abrahamic trial" came when his play "Huebener" (about Mormons in Nazi Germany) was banned from performance and publication during the 1980's. Another intellectual might have left BYU and the church. But Rogers stayed faithful, eventually the Berlin Wall came down, the play was performed and published again, and he was able to serve as mission president in Russia and have the extraordinary experiences recounted in his book. Do we really believe the Lord will bless us after the trial? ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 17 Jan 2001 15:59:51 -0700 On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:46:44 -0600 Linda Adams writes: > So, I take it nobody knows the answer to my question(s) here? > >Does anyone out there know whether the 2000 BYU Lewis Playwriting > >Contest for Women has been judged yet? All I know is that for the past three or four or five years I have been a preliminary judge. They give me five manuscripts and I read as much of them as I can stand to read and try to come up with some constructive criticisms. (Over the rears I have run into three or four readable plays. Believe it or not I actually got one called Flush! or something like that. It was a Sondheimesque musical that took place in a public bathroom.) I have never known who the winners turn out to be or when they are announced. Sorry. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 17 Jan 2001 15:59:51 -0700 On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:46:44 -0600 Linda Adams writes: > So, I take it nobody knows the answer to my question(s) here? > >Does anyone out there know whether the 2000 BYU Lewis Playwriting > >Contest for Women has been judged yet? All I know is that for the past three or four or five years I have been a preliminary judge. They give me five manuscripts and I read as much of them as I can stand to read and try to come up with some constructive criticisms. (Over the rears I have run into three or four readable plays. Believe it or not I actually got one called Flush! or something like that. It was a Sondheimesque musical that took place in a public bathroom.) I have never known who the winners turn out to be or when they are announced. Sorry. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rob Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 17 Jan 2001 17:42:46 -0700 Jim Cobabe wrote: Of course we all recognize that BYU should operate under exactly the same rules as all other universities. No, private universities do NOT have to operate under ANY rules, and neither does any other private organization. They set their own rules. That's what being private means. I don't agree with everything done at BYU (such as the media issue right now), but the fact remains that BYU has never intended to be just another university. It has very different goals. I believe that the people writing the media guidelines have good intentions. They may be a bit paranoid and Puritanical, but that doesn't make them evil. I keep hearing about the lack of "academic freedom" at BYU. The reality, in my opinion, couldn't be further from the truth. At most universities students are expected to accept or embrace highly liberal ideas. Conservative ideas, religion, etc. cannot even be discussed, or the student/professor/whoever is lashed out at. I can't remember the guy's name or university, but a tenured professor was recently bashed and threatened by expressing a viewpoint contrary to popular feminism. He ended up resigning. (The full story was on Dr. Laura's TV show the other day I don't recall all the details.) This kind of this is nothing new. I've heard about how restrictive BYU is for years, and I'm sick of it. The reality is that, barring anything blatantly anti-GA or anti-LDS, you can pretty much discuss anything under the sun, conservative and liberal. That is not the case elsewhere. It may sound ironic at first, but BYU has MORE academic freedom than most other places. (Okay, I'm ducking for the backlash.) Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 17 Jan 2001 18:23:52 -0700 Notable frequency of "...and it came to pass..."? --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 17 Jan 2001 19:26:14 -0600 At 04:59 PM 1/17/01, you wrote: > > >Does anyone out there know whether the 2000 BYU Lewis Playwriting > > >Contest for Women has been judged yet? > >All I know is that for the past three or four or five years I have been a >preliminary judge. They give me five manuscripts and I read as much of >them as I can stand to read and try to come up with some constructive >criticisms. (Over the rears I have run into three or four readable >plays. (I'm sorry, I just _can't_ help this one--) So, over whose "rears" were you reading at the time? ;-> I know I've made it into the "final" round before with my entries, but I was also fairly aware of why. (;-) read: not a heck of a lot of real competition) They were hoping that introducing a reading fee (which, yes, I paid) might help improve the quality of those entries. But in the meantime, it's a contest with an average of 40 entries, 30 or so of which are--well--by your own account, insufferable, and I'm interested in the judging because I believe it's a contest that (some year) I might just have a half a shot at winning. Maybe. (I think I do better than the "Flush!" musical you describe, anyway...) I appreciate your taking the time to write in, Scott. Thanks! Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ethan Skarstedt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 17 Jan 2001 19:02:34 -0800 > > Does anyone have any theories or observations of how > 'contemporary' Mormons speak? What do they speak > about? Do they exhibit any linguistic patterns that > mark them as Mormon? > > ~~William Morris > > I'm in the National Guard and so spend a bit of time each month with a group of men who are predominantly non-LDS. (Why there are so many more of our non-member neighbors in the National Guard than there are in the general population I don't know but there it is) I -have- noticed a trend in their speech patterns and how they differ from Mormon's. That trend is simply that they are more direct and unapologetic in their communication. When held side by side in my mind the difference can be simply defined by saying that the Mormon's speech is more smarmy, less definite, aimed more at making the person being spoken to feel good than to achieve effective communication. It could be argued that this is simply because I am listening to military men rather than 'regular' people but I would disagree with that argument on the following grounds: There are some mormons in the National Guard and they speak as I have described, even in that setting. The difference is rather startling when you hear the contrast for the first time. Secondly, I know plenty of non-members outside the Guard, my own family included, and their mode of speech tends to be generally more direct. I have theories on why this is but that is another matter. Ethan Skarstedt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 17 Jan 2001 19:44:51 -0700 Jim Cobabe wrote: > ... And we laud the "academic freedom" that affords professors at all other >universities absolute freedom to do and say whatever they wish without >restriction or censure. Tony Markham replied: >There are restrictions everywhere. I comment: I think Jim was making a humorous overstatement. In other words, a joke. Obviously there's no such thing a pure bastion of academic freedom. The best any of us can do is choose which restrictive environment we want to exist in--one that limits expression by banning certain ideas or presentations, or one that limits expression by strongly encouraging one set of ideas while ignoring another. We tend to define freedom as that which supports our own intellectual, social, or behavioral tendencies. Whatever encourages me to do what I want is freedom, and whatever pushes me to do what I don't want is oppression. To some degree, the term is fluid and relative, and makes any discussion of alleged academic freedom effectively fruitless. There isn't enough agreement on exactly what academic freedom really means. Having said that, I land pretty much in the middle of this one (surprise, surprise). I wish BYU as an institution more fully trusted both its faculty as students to be able to think critically and draw the best knowledge they can from any source--an arbitrary ban on R-rated movies strikes me as mistrust of the motives and capacities of both students and faculty. It limits some real opportunities for powerful discussion and learning. Not enough opposition in some things. Then again, the sponsoring institution is a morally conservative church running a private university with a clearly stated mission of providing an education in an environment free of certain moral, cultural, and social biases that are otherwise very much represented in the world at large. They've stated their broad boundaries quite publicly, and invite those unwilling to function within those boundaries to seek another environment. I wish BYU was open to more divergent approaches, but I accept that they're not. Fortunately, other universities exist where I can study those things that BYU will not teach. I have the freedom to pick and choose. Scott Parkin (who is really, really tired right now, so please pardon the ramble; it's much harder to write concisely than not...) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 17 Jan 2001 22:27:29 -0500 It's interesting that I heard something very similar on Rush Limbaugh the other day-and I don't listen to him very often, so it's a bit of a coincidence. From memory the gist was that in universities, especially Ivy League, there is a very liberal agenda. Students are practically brainwashed with it. Conservatism, capitalism, and being religious are not just frowned upon but persecuted. He went on at some length about the "religious left". Quite interesting in a Rush Limbaugh kind of way. But I'm not sure that I agree that BYU has more freedom. They are very selective about who they hire and who they admit in the first place. So the percentage of students or faculty that are going to push edges is not as high as it would be if they let just anyone attend. There is a very strict honor code-an assumption of basic moral values. Sometimes I think we *do* get a little too paranoid about what is and isn't acceptable. 'We' meaning members of the church. Not that I want to see a bunch of what I would consider sleaze. But who am I to decide that for someone else? Ideally I think you are right. The gospel should be freeing, not controlling. It ties into some things I've been thinking about a lot lately. I won't go into it all because it's already pages in my journal. But, in summary, I think that, as a church-not the institute itself, but the members who are part of it-we are too exclusive. We do not welcome everyone into our midst with open arms and nurture their tiny seeds of faith. I find that most members want other members, and investigators, to be showing forth some really great fruits before they consider them worthy of the honor of even looking into the kingdom. I don't always agree with what Eric, Thom, D. Michael, or some of the other frequent posters say. But I am so grateful for all their comments. They make me think, ponder, consider, and search. Tracie Laulusa -----Original Message----- I've heard about how restrictive BYU is for years, and I'm sick of it. The reality is that, barring anything blatantly anti-GA or anti-LDS, you can pretty much discuss anything under the sun, conservative and liberal. That is not the case elsewhere. It may sound ironic at first, but BYU has MORE academic freedom than most other places. (Okay, I'm ducking for the backlash.) Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 17 Jan 2001 22:53:57 -0600 >One thing I've noticed in the 30 years I've been in the Church is a >particular voice pattern when they read Scriptures. The voice starts low, >then continues rising until it drops on the last syllable of the line. On >the next line, the pattern starts again. It's a bit mind-numbing, but for >all I know, it may be common to many people not accustomed to the concept >of >trying to read aloud with feeling. How funny--I wondered if I was the only one who noticed that. It happens when missionaries learn other languages, too--they may speak more or less normally in running conversation, but whenever they start to read scripture or say something of Spiritual Significance, you know because of the strange intonation pattern that happens. I've heard it on a mission in Chile and in two different extended periods of living in Germany. Rose _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Wanted: Cinderella's Father Date: 17 Jan 2001 22:23:17 -0600 For some reason, this struck my funnybone. I must be aging. I stumbled into this online at last Friday's (January 12, 2001) Deseret News. Theater editor Ivan Lincoln compiles an Auditions column, in which he writes, "THE SCERA CENTER in Orem has already started rehearsals for "Into the Woods," but a 50-year-old (or thereabouts) man is still needed to play Cinderella's father." Thinking (or more accurately not thinking) this might be my ticket to fame and fortune, my brain quickly restarted when the commute factor kicked in (I'm several states away). I guess 50-year-old men who want to play Cinderella's father are hard to come by. So here's a big chance for somebody else who would like to enjoy a real mid-life (or thereabouts) crisis. And in the off-chance there really is someone out there, Ivan Lincoln continues, "Those interested in auditioning can call the SCERA at 225-2560 or send an e-mail to mskate@usa.net." Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 17 Jan 2001 22:02:38 -0800 On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:42:46 -0700 Annette Lyon writes: > I keep hearing about the lack of "academic freedom" at BYU. The reality, > in my opinion, couldn't be further from the truth. At most universities > students are expected to accept or embrace highly liberal ideas. > Conservative ideas, religion, etc. cannot even be discussed, or the > student/professor/whoever is lashed out at. I have heard this sentiment several times on AML-List, and I keep wanting to ask, "What liberal university did you go to?" I went to a very liberal (votever dot meinz) university in the least-churched city in the country (i.e., Seattle has the fewest churches per capita of any major American city), and noone challenged me on my religious attitudes or tried to force me to accept highly liberal ideas. Indeed, the day we discussed my story "The Covenant Breaker" in David Bosworth's class I got a reaction I would hardly have expected at a secular university. There's a scene where a returned missionary meets at church a boy he's molested a couple of days before. "Oh, God," he says. The boy answers, "No, it's just me, Brendan." David's comment to the class was, "Sometimes it's nice to be reminded that when we say things like that we _are_ taking the Lord's name in vain." That was a very diverse class. We had an observant Jew who announced she wouldn't be in class one day because of Yom Kippur (falls in October, right?), a practicing Methodist, a New Mexican who wrote a Christmas miracle story that I didn't like the first time I read it because I was reading it askew, but it keeps haunting me, so I know it's a good piece--wish I could get ahold of her. (Anyone heard of Pamela Seltzer?) We also had a high school teacher from Alaska who I think was an atheist but was very taken with Inuit spirituality, and a Jack London existentialist (who didn't much like me, perhaps because we both have strong and strongly contrasting world views and try to reflect the whole of our views in everything we write, and another atheist (?) who later teamed up with the Seattle 5th ward primary president's inactive husband to write a hard-boiled detective novel. And this very diverse group probably liked the story better than a Mormon audience would have, even though that audience would have felt more resonance in the opening passage describing a baby blessing. And it's not just the faculty who were respectful of people's rights to express their opinions. The UW Daily (Rag) had a faculty advisor who let them publish whatever they wanted--didn't think his role was censor, and some of the letters to the editor were close to libelous. But they published a lot of letters from conservative students, one who always signed "In His Name." There was also an active conservative student movement on campus. A much wider divergence of opinion than I saw at BYU, and yet it reminded me of BYU in one way. The Daily Universe was always running letters from students who would say, "So-and-so, I don't know how anyone with a testimony could say such-and-such." The Daily ran letters like, "So and so you blankety-blank blanker-blanking blank of a blank (I'll leave you to fill in the blanks) you really need help for saying that, and I hope you get the blankety blank help you get (whatever you fill the blanks in with will be mild) you blankety blanker." That is, students (much more than professors) at both universities would try to disenfranchise people who disagreed with them, but I had good experiences both places, though I suspect my very LDS fiction got a better hearing at the secular university than it would have at the sacred. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 17 Jan 2001 22:04:14 -0700 >On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 12:28:40PM -0800, plus two wrote: >> Does anyone have any theories or observations of how >> 'contemporary' Mormons speak? What do they speak >> about? Do they exhibit any linguistic patterns that >> mark them as Mormon? In prayer and testimony meeting, Mormons are always thanking God for "the opportunity..." To be here, to worship, to have the gospel, for our callings, etc. I wonder if this has to do with our concept of free agency--we don't thank God for making us Mormon or good or smart or holy, but for giving us that opportunity. But aside from the Mormon speech patterns, which I consider distinct from Utah speech patterns, I believe most of the speech comes from the local culture where Mormons reside. Barry Monroe speaks mostly like a Californian, but with Mormon and German nouns thrown it. And as most missionaries would agree, no self-respecting California dude would ever say "flip." Only male missionaries from the Intermountain region would say the f-word. My working hypothesis is to use local culture and throw in a few Mormon words and phrases. And I am grateful for the opportunity to share my thoughts... Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 17 Jan 2001 22:11:49 -0700 Scott Parkin: --- I wish BYU was open to more divergent approaches, but I accept that they're not. Fortunately, other universities exist where I can study those things that BYU will not teach. I have the freedom to pick and choose. --- I tend to agree with such moderate expression of interest. Personally I rather enjoy most "R" media. Probably most BYU students and staff are responsible enough to use such material without significant risk to any of them. Here's the rub, though--it is the escalation of hyperbole from the liberals. The more protests, the more antagonistic the rhetoric from dissidents and naysayers, the more polarization between groups that might otherwise settle their petty differences in a reasonable fashion. When extreme voices cry out so shrilly that their freedom is being infringed, making a mountain out of a molehill, it becomes a self-fulfulling prophecy. BYU administrators are forced to take _some_ kind of action on matters they might have been inclined to ignore, had it not been thrust in their faces. I consider this and all similar forms of mutual antagonism to be nothing less than ironic just rewards. --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History (was: Year in Review) Date: 18 Jan 2001 01:06:35 -0700 Margaret Young wrote: > He asked the rhetorical question, "Do we really need to review some aspects > of our history?" I find that troubling. I find it especially troubling > today, since I just got a note from a friend announcing that she is > leaving the Church. The historical problems AND THE COVER-UPS just got > too much for her. Maybe the "whitewashed" history was necessary for a while for a fledgling religion--maybe--but it's coming back to haunt us now. We could get away with it as a small, eccentric sect that no one paid much attention to, but now that we are receiving the recognition and acclaim we've craved all these years, along with that comes the detailed scrutiny of our history. Now the "whitewashed" version isn't holding up, and people like Margaret's friends are losing their testimony of the entire Gospel because of the credibility gap caused by our reworked history. Perhaps the truism "Honesty is the best policy" should have been more carefully considered all those years. We teach that our leaders, even our prophets, are not perfect. Yet we still seem to need them to be _almost_ perfect, or somehow they're not called of God. Cute little foibles are okay to make them more endearing, but big whoppers of mistakes are frightening. But why? Noah got drunk and lay about naked. Jacob stole his brother's birthright by subterfuge instead of trusting that God would fulfill his promise in due time. Moses took credit for a miracle of God and was denied entrance into the promised land. Eli couldn't fulfill his responsibilities as a father and God had to destroy his sons. David committed adultery and murder. Peter denied Christ three times. Paul spoke against marriage, which is a requirement for exaltation. Joseph Smith lost 100+ pages of sacred scripture because he refused to accept God's instructions. Brigham Young taught questionable doctrine that has been repudiated by subsequent prophets. These are not little foibles. Prophets have a long history of making huge mistakes. Trying to pretend the mistakes don't exist does what any disingenuousness does: destroys one's credibility. So my response to your plea... > Help me out here. The > subject of what we should or should not be writing, being Mormons, is a > frequent topic of discussion. Can we have a little more of it? I'm > also extremely interested in how you individually have dealt with the > Church's historical problems and held onto your testimonies, and how > you've helped others through their own problems. ...is, we should write about whatever we want, as long as we're honest with the truth. Isn't honesty supposed to be a basic virtue of the Gospel? Why doesn't it seem to be a valued virtue in the Gospel's literature? I've held onto my testimony by repudiating the unworkable folk doctrine that our leaders need to be "almost perfect." Rather than discouraging me, this reassures me. Maybe I have a better chance at exaltation than I thought. Maybe Christ's atonement really does make up for our human weaknesses, as long as we're trying to make progress in the right direction. Whether this helps anyone else with their testimony, I have no idea. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History (was: Year in Review) Date: 18 Jan 2001 00:26:25 -0800 On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:18:06 -0700 Margaret Young writes: > He asked the rhetorical question, "Do we really need to review some > aspects of our history?" Yes, I suppose we do, not to embarrass our culture or hate ourselves, but to understand and to testify--we can choose how we interpret our personal and institutional and cultural tragedies and sufferings and weaknesses and strengths. > I find that troubling. I find it especially troubling today, since I just got > a note from a friend announcing that she is leaving the Church. The > historical problems AND THE COVER-UPS just got too much for her. I am so sad. People on the edges of the Church and culture are often my subjects though I don't know they would particularly like what I write about. I feel great empathy for people on the edges. (Though I doubt I practice much empathy.) > Notice that I am linking this subject to the list via my own work and > my twin's (Marilyn Brown's). Help me out here. The subject of what > we should or should not be writing, being Mormons, is a frequent > topic of discussion. Can we have a little more of it? I have a whole group of e-mails I started working on over the Christmas hiatus (love Robert Benchley's classic, "Filling that Hiatus," I always wondered as a boy what a hy-a-toose was. Love the part where he eats the doily--or was that a different essay?) about what we should write about. > I'm also extremely interested in how you individually have dealt with > the Church's historical problems and held onto your testimonies, and > how you've helped others through their own problems. One of the Swearing Elders, McMurrin, I think (though it could be Grandpa's cousin Obert Tanner) has an essay called, "Is Religion the Denial of History." I haven't read it yet, but I imagine we all hope that repentance is the denial of history "I the Lord will remember it no more." And if true religion is true repentance or true forgiveness, maybe the sins of the past can mean something different than a cause to leave. I think one big help for me was when Armand Mauss gave his "Angel and the Beehive" talk at BYU and said that the only people anti-Mormon writing can affect is people who think about religion in the same way as the anti-Mormon writers. Another thing that helped a great deal was my growing understanding that all interpretation is choice. Another thing that helped me was a comment Owen Clark (yes, part of the clan, different branch) made one day. Fine gospel doctrine teacher in the ward next door (Seattle 3rd) and I used to linger in the RS room after EQ (It was too small for the RS Sisters--love those acorn-names) and talk to him as the 3rd ward high priests filed in (last I heard he had been called as President of the Aaronic Priesthood in that ward). "What are you writing, Owen?" He told me that he had begun noticing that the institutional behavior of the post-manifesto church (100 years) was strikingly like the behavior of people he treated for post-traumatic stress. ("Lucy, you need to see a puh-see-a-key-a-trist." Every time I work on an assembly line I find myself singing, "Lucy in the ca-andy fac-tory, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum.") "The Church was raped by the federal government," he says. I think about that a lot, and compare it to the number of posts I've written about my own wounds and never sent. I find Jan Shipps' writings helpful. > If it gets too personal (or if Jonathan feels it's off-topic), please e-mail me > individually. I need to hear from you SOON. > > [Margaret Young] Sorry for the pitiful offering. That capitalized SOON and the late hour compels me to send this off with less deliberation than I might otherwise. Maybe more later. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 18 Jan 2001 07:58:14 -0700 I would suggest that the way to write Mormon dialogue is to spend some = time really listening to Mormons dialogueing. I absolutely love to stand = in a long line, for example, the longer the better. Perfect eavesdropping = time. Most of the time, when I eavesdrop, it's in circumstances where the = eavesdropees might catch me. And I'm a big ugly guy--appallingly = conspicuous. So lines are good. I'm writing this early in the morning, and for health's sake, I've been = parking as far from my office as reasonably possible. So here are the = snippets of conversation I overheard at BYU, this morning, while walking = to work. A: So, like, he calls me, right, and I'm all, 'hey, it's good to talk to = you,' and I'm, like, thinking, 'who are you?' B: Totally. I hate that. A: So anyway. . . . A (A different A, obviously): No, see, no, deathbed repentance is-- B: Okay, not like the Catholics, but still--. A: Completely . . . there's this verse in I think Alma--. A: Revolver, it's maybe the fifth best Beatles album--. B: No, see, people who have really studied this think it's the transitional= --. A: Sgt. Peppers is-- B: It's--. A: See, that's the most important album of-- A: It's the most boring class in the history of. . . . That's one morning, one walk. Now, the Beatles album arguers, I followed = a bit, but they saw me and lowered their voices. The rest of them I heard = just by listening to people. =20 IMHO, that's how you learn how to write dialogue. Reading helps some. = Listening helps more. Listen to people. Be nosy. And if you have a = choice of the long line at the grocery store, or the shorter line, take = the longer one. People talk about the most interesting things in grocery = stores. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 18 Jan 2001 08:11:19 -0700 Okay, I owe Linda a huge public apology for this one, and I will follow up = and try to find out why you didn't get your letter about this. The = department secretary who actually runs the contest left about the time we = finished up this year's contest, and that's the best explanation I can = think of. Linda's own history with the contest is a bizarre one anyway--I = can't think of anyone who's had worse luck with not getting informed and = stuff. Anyway, the Lewis contest is finished. A woman from Chicago won, in a = rather interesting play about an artist married to a mountain climber, who = has a hard time getting over it when he's killed on the top of Everest. I = don't recall the name of the playwright or the play, which is a sign of = incipient senility, because I read the part of the mountain climber at our = staged reading for it. Linda's play, which I liked better than the = mountain climber/artist play, was in the finals, but was edged out in = votes cast by the other two finalist judges. =20 For all of you out there who would like to be playwrights and who happen = to be female, I am rather proud of the Lewis Playwriting Contest for = Women, which I have been part of now for about four years. It was started = by Susan Lewis, quite a good Mormon writer, who graduated from BYU in the = early eighties (and who, FWIW, I also dated very briefly in the seventies.)= =20 It's not an LDS oriented contest; we haven't had an LDS winner for years. = But BYU administers it, and we would love to produce the winning play. In = fact, we did last spring, a wonderful play, Voices From Black Canyon, = about the building of Hoover Dam. (Best Dam play ever written). Our = local critics killed it--it got lousy reviews and consequently poor box = office--and I didn't see the production. Experimental plays are hard = enough to get audiences to see anyway, and one bad review is absolute = death . . . which is why critics have a professional obligation, I = believe, to give dark, difficult, odd plays reviews 50% better than they = want to give them, just so they have a tiny chance of succeeding. I was = in England at the time; maybe the production wasn't very strong. But it's = a terrific play. =20 Anyway, if any of you have a play in you, write it, send it in. And a = million jillion apologies to Linda. We'll do better by you next time, I = promise. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce Grant" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 18 Jan 2001 08:36:33 -0700 I lived 30 years in Korea, taught Korean to missionaries for years. The strange intonation pattern carries into Korean, even. ----- Original Message ----- > >One thing I've noticed in the 30 years I've been in the Church is a > >particular voice pattern when they read Scriptures. The voice starts low, > >then continues rising until it drops on the last syllable of the line. On > >the next line, the pattern starts again. It's a bit mind-numbing, but for > >all I know, it may be common to many people not accustomed to the concept > >of > >trying to read aloud with feeling. > > How funny--I wondered if I was the only one who noticed that. It happens > when missionaries learn other languages, too--they may speak more or less > normally in running conversation, but whenever they start to read scripture > or say something of Spiritual Significance, you know because of the strange > intonation pattern that happens. I've heard it on a mission in Chile and in > two different extended periods of living in Germany. > > Rose - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 18 Jan 2001 08:50:39 -0700 I should have posted this before now, but here it goes . . . I'd like to invite all members of the AML-list, friends and family and = anyone else who wants to come, to a performance of a new play of mine, = titled What Really Happened. It's in the Nelke Theatre, in the HFAC = (Harris Fine Arts Center) on the BYU campus. Performances are tonight = (Thursday, Jan. 17), tomorrow and Saturday (Jan. 18, 19) at 7:30 p.m. = Admission is free. What Really Happened is a play about the power of rationalization. A nice = young couple, Cath and Rich, begin by telling you that they are going to = tell you all about what really happened, that it really wasn't so bad, and = that it really wasn't their fault anyway, so you shouldn't blame them. = Over the course of the play, you learn what they did, and realize that it = was horrifying. I don't want to give too much away. =20 This is an example of what I call Under The Radar Theatre. The play is = very dark, and quite disturbing, and unquestionably the sort of thing that = we couldn't do at BYU on the season. But a student, Lesley Larson, read = it, and loved it, and she decided to get some friends (including some of = the finest actors in our department) and produce it herself. I like the = play a lot, but I recognize that it's not the kind of play we can do here, = and so am thrilled to have a production under the radar. I haven't = advertised it much, though, because I'm a little worried about it. It's a = very weird play, and the kids weren't memorized as of last Saturday. But = last night, the dress went very well indeed, and so . . . Anyway, you're all invited to come. There's very little bad language (the = b-word, as in female dog, gets used a little) but it's very disturbing, = even to me, and so I won't be bringing my two younger children to see it, = and suggest you don't either. If you can make it, let me know what y'all = think of it. Anyway, a free date. Can't beat that. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] ROGERS, _A Call to Russia_; Abrahamic Tests Date: 18 Jan 2001 09:03:17 -0700 A couple of points of clarification: The first staging of _Huebener_ was not really controversial; in fact, it was (as Carol Lyn Pearson described it) an "EVENT." The Arena theater sold out nightly. The problem came when we (I was in the cast) were invited to take the show to California. Then Pres. Monson saw it and said it was a good show, but he was concerned that "Huebener was not Joseph Smith." Implications: Might some people follow Huebener's example in taking bold action which action would be more dangerous than edifying? Might their bold action result in leading others astray rather than "building the Kingdom"? Of course, I don't know what Pres. Monson's thoughts actually were, only that he said "Huebener was not Joseph Smith" and repeated it several times. It is worth mentioning that _Huebener_ IS published in Rogers's book of plays, _God's Fools_, and that the play was done again at BYU--this time on the Pardoe stage--some ten years ago. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 18 Jan 2001 09:40:27 -0700 Ivan Angus Wolfe wrote: > > > I'll let you and others give them more credit. But as for me, as each day > > passes, I feel to thank God that I never followed through on my once > > strongly held desire to return and teach at BYU. > > > > Thom > I rather enjoy BYU _ i know this isn't arelated topic to AML - but since you > feel it is okay to insult BYU - I would like to defend it. If you don't like it > - that's fine. But I enjoy BYU - it's not perfect - but after visitng other > colleges and being treated like a reactionary Aryan Nationalist, it's nice to be > somewhere where I can actually take the gospel seriously. I graduated from BYU. I attend its theatre programs. I think they turn out killer computer programmers, great businessmen, excellent atheletes I don't, however, worship the school. I do not give money to it even though they ask me every year. My biggest problem is not that BYU is different from other schools, but that it is not different enough. I was a recent convert when I attended back in the 70's, still naive enough to think that things politics, jealousy, and power-plays didn't exist in Church instititions. I actually believed (and partly joined the Church because of) teachings related to "we believe in truth wherever it is found." Sometime after my frist semester, I lost my innocence. I realized that, despite the fact the Church ran the university, underneath it all -- and despite the protestations to the contrary -- BYU was just like any other school, an institution hopelessly embroiled in the principles of the world, only not the liberal principles that had plagued my junior college (where, BTW, I was treated with great respect and my religious standards were not only supported but lauded by fellow students.) No, BYU is not perfect, but it shouldn't strive to be above the fold in certain respects? If the most distinguishing thing that separates BYU from other institutions is that BYU bans R-rated movies from adults, then, in my estimation, we've missed the mark. Bringing this back to writing, I'm still a little confused as to how an institution, a non-living being without feelings, can be insulted. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 18 Jan 2001 09:49:34 -0700 Rob Lyon wrote: > I've heard about how restrictive BYU is for years, and I'm sick of it. Some of us are saddened that BYU, like many secular universities, seems to be caught in Politically Correct Hell. At BYU, politically correct skews to the conservative agenda. At other schools, it may skew to the liberal side. Why can't BYU be above all that, and throw political correctness to the wind? Political correctness, a trapping of the world, show have no place at BYU. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 18 Jan 2001 10:08:24 -0700 harlowclark@juno.com wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:42:46 -0700 Annette Lyon writes: > > I keep hearing about the lack of "academic freedom" at BYU. The > reality, > > in my opinion, couldn't be further from the truth. At most universities > > students are expected to accept or embrace highly liberal ideas. > > Conservative ideas, religion, etc. cannot even be discussed, or the > > student/professor/whoever is lashed out at. > > I have heard this sentiment several times on AML-List, and I keep wanting > to ask, "What liberal university did you go to?" I went to a very liberal > (votever dot meinz) university in the least-churched city in the country > (i.e., Seattle has the fewest churches per capita of any major American > city), and noone challenged me on my religious attitudes or tried to > force me to accept highly liberal ideas. I attended El Camino Junior College in 1967, (and met my wife of 30 years there, but that's another story). Liberal Southern California. The Hippie movement was still strong, and wouldn't completely die until 1969. On my campus there existed a Free Sex Club, a Marxist Club. as well as a Campus Crusade for Christ. I was in a play where I played a drunkard. My drama director was an alcoholic and gay. During one of the rehearsals, he gathered the class together to address an important issue, my being LDS (I don't know how he knew that, but he did.) He wanted to make sure that no one in the cast would do what he'd seen done a couple of years earlier to another Mormon actor, slip the "stage" booze with real booze, which resulted in ruining the entire performance. On any occasion thereafter when anyone commented on my religious values, it was always with respect, admiration, and -- sometimes -- amazement ("How can you NOT take drugs and still be so creative?). My working career has followed a similar track. In the days before sensitivity training, I had a supervisor who apologized for his occasional use of profanity. The only time my worth as a human being has ever been questioned was by fellow members of the Church (a now-retired BYU professor who questioned my testimony because I had written a rock musical on Joseph Smith, to name one.) Atheistic, alcoholic, drug-taking, hippie homosexual rock musicians have always accepted me with open arms. Church-going, family-supporting, Conservative Mormons have been the ones who've made me feel like an outsider. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 18 Jan 2001 10:14:49 -0700 Jim Cobabe wrote: > Here's the rub, though--it is the escalation of hyperbole from the liberals. This may be the pot calling the kettle black, or the classic chicken and egg argument, but I'll say it anyway. Extreme voices cry out because they have not been heard while using kinder words. There's no reason to scream if you're being listened to. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: [AML] Re: Mormon Dialogue Date: 18 Jan 2001 11:29:19 -0600 I've been trying for years to understand the source of the uniquely Utah/Mormon "dialect." I don't know as if it's so much Mormon any more, as it is Utah. As I see it, the common "Utah Dialect" is an unconscious attempt by the speaker to act humble (whether he or she is doing this to act humble or just mimicking others, I don't know). The tone usually has low, hushed quality, and somewhat monotone. And it always drops off at the end. Women have it more often than men. (My mother-in-law is a great example.) Interestingly tho, the "dialect" is often only used when expression certain feelings, like bearing a testimony or telling a compelling religious story. One of the best examples of this "dialect" is one of Coventant's latest radio commercials for one of it's books (_Pillar of Fire_ maybe?) that can be (at least last month) heard on KSL radio. It's a PERFECT example of the Utah/Mormon dialect, as they practically "bear testimony" of this book. Maybe in 100 years the "Mormon Dialect" will be as pronounced as, say, the Texan dialect. And let me also add that this dialect BUGS THE HECK OUT OF ME! Darvell Hunt Pleasant Grove, UT _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 18 Jan 2001 17:46:26 GMT As others have already said (more eloquently), the R rating is fairly meaningless. I've seen PG and PG-13 movies that sent me reeling because of their absolute immorality, and R movies that uplift and make joyous :). Our cultural view is skewed by language and our pre-set reactions to things. For example, I was stunned by the recent announcement from BYU that students and faculty could have ONE ear piercing but not TWO or more, according to the new dress code. That's absolutely silly, if you look at it clearly. What makes one piercing lovely and of good report and two piercings morally corrupt :) ? Cathy Gileadi Wilson [MOD: A preemptive request here. Let's not get into the pros and cons of the body piercing discussion. List volume is quite high right now, and this isn't a central topic for us.] This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History (was: Year in Review) Date: 18 Jan 2001 11:57:59 -0700 (MST) > I'm > also extremely interested in how you individually have dealt with the > Church's historical problems and held onto your testimonies, and how > you've helped others through their own problems. If it gets too > personal (or if Jonathan feels it's off-topic), please e-mail me > individually. I need to hear from you SOON. > > [Margaret Young] For me it's realy cognitive dissonance ;) Actually - I feel liek Bruce R. McKonkie did (in a quote Leonard Arrington cited frequently) that the best defens of the church is a true and honest accounting of our history. That woul dinclude all the warts - The gospel may make people better (and perhaps even perfect in teh very long run) - but it has yet to produce perfection "on the spot" and we are all human. Merely by the law of averages the Church has to have had some scoundrels, losers and "bad dudes" in its past. The main thing is focus - when writing or relating history is the purpose to show our often faulty history in order to prevent against the same happening again, to open the eyes of the modern saints, to show us all that Mormons are just humans trying to get by, or to tear down the church and show that because no one has yet to be perfect it must be false? I'm not a big fan of the current trend of "Cultural studies" in English departments - but there are a few concepts that I feel are valuable and useful. One of them is "subversion and containment." In this concept - a text "subverts" whatever values it is trying to teach by questioning them, showing them in unfavorable lights, etc. But then, at some point, the text will "contain" the subversion by ultimatly supporting the issue at hand and either discounting the criticisms or showing them to be misguided (yes - it's a simplification of the concept - but it works for now). One problem we have as authors and artists is that sometimes the "subversion" can go too far, so that no amount of contaiment will ever bring the reader/audience back. So - as an author of whatever (history or whatnot) it is possible to show so many of the warts and sins of past Saints that the readers (no matter how much the author tries to contain the criticism) are totally subverted and will never be reclaimed. It is a danger. Not one I fell either Marylin Brown or Margaret Young and Darius Grey have crossed (both did very well, IMHO) - but something to look out for. ---Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 18 Jan 2001 14:02:12 -0600 Annette Lyon wrote: > At most universities students are expected to accept or embrace highly liberal > ideas. Conservative ideas, religion, etc. cannot even be discussed, or the > student/professor/whoever is lashed out at... It may sound ironic at first, > but BYU has MORE academic freedom than most other places. Never having taught at or attended BYU, I can't comment on that. I've attended and taught at several other universities (well, five), and agree that they aren't hotbeds of intellectual tolerance. Faculty members are very rarely intolerant of conservative students; rather, they assume that their views of the world are right and shared by all but Newt Gingrich, Tom DeLay and their minions - they're one-sided. Students, on the other hand, often think that free speech should be reserved for people who say the right things. My students are a restive and intolerant bunch, and I eye them as a French aristocrat would have eyed his peasants in 1780 if he'd had any foresight. I barely dare raise a word against affirmative action lest they hang me as a racist. I did hear recently from our college director that a certain senior faculty member was horrified by a picture on my door - a picture of me in Alaska holding a shotgun (bear repellent) and looking unhappy (the haze over my head was mosquitos). It was the gun, of course; he feared that it sent a violent message to our students and wanted a letter of reprimand to be entered into my file. Cooler heads prevailed and I was informally told that I might want to be careful of what I put on my door. Pictures of pit bulls and Edward Gorey limericks now hang there - let him interpret them as he likes. In some ways academia is indeed a secular religion, and complaints I've heard leveled at the church and at BYU wrt taste, orthodoxy, and artistic (intellectual) homogeneity could just as easily be leveled at the Harvard law school or the UT English department. My colleagues have been initiated into the mysteries, our students are our acolytes, and they accept our word (so long as it's orthodox) as having the weight of authority. Academia should be a hotbed of skepticism, but instead it's full of people who take a quasi-religious approach to knowledge based on prior belief (faith). Should R-rated film be banned from BYU, along with other adult-oriented art and literature? If we think of it as just another university, I don't see any reason why not (substitute racially insensitive for adult-oriented and it could be de facto university policy anywhere). I've never been under the impression that BYU was superior to other universities, so I look at such a policy sadly as just another example of what's wrong with American academia. Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 19 Jan 2001 08:40:42 -0700 Annette Lyon wrote: >At most universities >students are expected to accept or embrace highly liberal ideas. >Conservative ideas, religion, etc. cannot even be discussed, or >the >student/professor/whoever is lashed out at.=20 This notion is fairly popular and quite broadly circulated, however my = experience is that it's not particularly true. In certain humanities = disciplines, at a few schools, there does exist a kind of post-structuralis= t orthodoxy, where a fairly knee-jerk acceptance of the ideas of Foucault = and Derrida is required. But to suggest that 'conservative' political = ideas are banned on universities across the country is inconsistent with = my experience, certain pieces of anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. I = taught at two other schools before coming to BYU, and I belong to four = major scholarly organizations whose meetings I attend regularly, and this = notion that 'conservatives' can't express themselves on campus isn't at = all the case. Most of my colleagues at other institutions lament that = campuses across the US are getting more conservative all the time. Not = more liberal. And I think they're right. Besides, the unspoken implication of your statement is that BYU is a = 'conservative' institution of higher learning, most others being 'liberal.'= But heck, I teach here, and I'm practically a socialist, I'm so far = left. =20 >I can't remember the guy's name >or university, but a tenured professor was recently bashed and >threatened= by >expressing a viewpoint contrary to popular feminism. He ended >up = resigning. Who, where, when, what point of view, in what discipline? These kinds of = things do happen occasionally, of course, because some feminists can get = pretty obnoxious sometimes, a trait they share with, oh, dairy farmers, = CPA's, software engineers, conservative talk show hosts, time share condo = salespeople, pest control technicians, ad copywriters, truck drivers, = bartenders. . . .=20 Okay, so I've gotten that off my chest. Fact is, Annette's pretty much = right about BYU. >I've heard about how restrictive BYU is for years, and I'm sick of >it. = The >reality is that, barring anything blatantly anti-GA or anti-LDS, you >can >pretty much discuss anything under the sun, conservative and >liberal.=20 I know some pretty reasonable people who got kicked out for saying pretty = reasonable things. I'd like to think that that era is behind us, but it = probably isn't. I mean, there are still people who walk around the = bookstore checking to see what books certain infamously liberal professors = have ordered for their classes, and then complaining, not to the administra= tion, but to certain General Authorities. That does happen. But it's = isolated; BYU's own version of conservative political correctness is just = as obnoxious as the liberal political correctness that sometimes holds = sway at other institutions. But in neither case does political correctness= get very many people fired all that often. Neither brand should ever get = anyone fired. But the millennium has yet to arrive. >BYU has MORE academic freedom than most other places.=20 No, about the same; less freedom in most areas, a lot more freedom in = other areas, so it probably balances out. I personally love teaching at = BYU. I love the kids. And I absolutely love to be able to bear my = testimony in class. I absolutely love being able to apply my understanding= of the gospel to the theories and practices of my discipline. I = absolutely love being able to write about my religion and my culture. And = I'll say it again, I love the kids. BYU students are some of the finest = human beings collectively on this planet, most of the time. They care, = and they think, and they give of themselves, and their idealism and energy = keeps me young. Every once in a long while the administration does = something dumb and irritates me. That's one percent of a job that's 99% = wonderful. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 18 Jan 2001 13:11:18 -0700 I said: > >(Over the rears I have run into three or four readable plays. Linda responds: > (I'm sorry, I just _can't_ help this one--) > So, over whose "rears" were you reading at the time? ;-> Well, all the rears in Flush! of course. Don't you just love a great typo? Sometimes they speak volumes, don't they? Too bad Freud's head was full of cigars or we might be able to make something of my little slip of the keyboard. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 18 Jan 2001 15:36:48 -0500 At 10:02 PM 1/17/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >That is, students (much more than professors) at both universities would >try to disenfranchise people who disagreed with them, but I had good >experiences both places, though I suspect my very LDS fiction got a >better hearing at the secular university than it would have at the >sacred. > > >Harlow S. Clark I think that you are right about students. Professors, on the other hand, get less latitude in many schools. In my nearly forty years in academe, I have seen the hard hand of censorship, lack of tenure, and a variety of other problems hit those who are conservative (and vocal about it). It is, sort of, the reverse of the BYU situation. I was the "outside man" on a search committee in Political Science one time and saw a really competetent, even exciting candidate turned down because, in the words of one committee member "I can't believe that anyone who has really studied political science could still 'knee jerk' to that conservative b*** s***." I had a biology professor attack me in a general faculty meeting because I had (at that time) five children (We had one more later just to give him a thrill). I don't remember the exact wording (in the sixties, there are a lot of things I don't remember about the sixties) but he stated that no Polluter of the Earth like me really belonged on a Liberal Arts Faculty. I never applied to BYU in spite of a couple of mild recruitment mentions because I didn't want to adjust my concept of theatre to the standards that existed at the time (Once, in the late fifties I attended a performance of _The Importance of Being Ernest_ at BYU wherin instead of serving tea, they served cocoa.) and I didn't want to shave my beard, but I really think that the academic "atmosphere" at the "Y" is probably not really much different that anywhere else. The criteria for examination are just different. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yeechang Lee Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 19 Jan 2001 11:50:41 -0500 (EST) I don't have any meaningful personal experience with BYU's alleged restrictions on academic freedom, though I (will) have three Y alum siblings and of course have heard all takes on the issue over the years from friends and acquaintances. (Personal background: Grew up in NYC, graduated from Bronx Science and Columbia, served my mission in Nevada, now with an investment bank in the Bay area. LDS arts exposure mostly limited to the _Great Brain_ series, the Philip Barlow-edited _A Thoughtful Faith_, the two James Talmage classics, and the laughable LDS music heard on my mission. LDS arts claim to fame: Possibly only person alive to have had seminary, Institute, and college classes from Richard Bushman.) Columbia fits the "liberal eastern school" label as well as any other. I can't say I can recall a single time I felt personally uncomfortable as a Mormon there. There was one instructor who make some pretty disparaging remarks about religion, and I wish in retrospect that I'd said something about it. But individually, my teachers and fellow students were uniformly accepting of my church membership. An estimate I've seen that says Columbia is about 15% Jewish sounds about right to me. I would not be surprised if Jews were the single largest religious denomination on campus. The _Columbia Daily Spectator_ ran some article on its cover about a Jewish organization or activity at least once a week, if not more often. This is not to say anti-Semitism didn't exist, but certain Judaism was seen as a "norm" in a way that doesn't exist outside NYC, Hollywood, and the top universities. Evangelical Christian groups weren't always treated by the paper quite so nicely--a fair amount of dark talk about the imminent threat to American democracy from the "religious right," and so forth--but considering that journalists and columnists who write for a living raise this specter all the time too, I didn't find it a big deal. Of course, the primary objection the paper had with the "religious right" was with their conservative politics. This merely reflected the prevailing leftist-tinged sentiments of the campus and the city. In practice, I also found acceptance of my political beliefs from others *on an individual basis*. Collectively, things were quite different. In particular, a pretty awful thing happened in November 1998; Nat Hentoff of the _Village Voice_ wrote a column (http://faculty-web.at.nwu.edu/commstud/freespeech/cont/cases/hecklers1.html) which accurately describes the incident. I'm not sure what this incident says about people other than that there are cowards everywhere in a crowd and that the idea of a "mob mentality" is very real. At the same time, I'm fairly sure that nothing like this would have happened at BYU. I can't see a riot nearly breaking out over the mere presence of, say, Jesse Jackson and Patricia Ireland somewhere on the BYU campus. "Yes," you may reply, "but that just means Mormons are more polite." Well, doesn't that count for something? [Yeechang Lee] -- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Year in Review, pt. 2 Date: 19 Jan 2001 05:38:07 +0900 The Largely Ignorant Reviewer returns for pt. 2 in his Mormon Literature Year in Review. Warning, your millage my vary. Short Stories: It was a pretty thin year for short stories. In fact, if it weren't for the recent rise of Irreantum as an outlet for short fiction there would hardly be any at all. This was largely because of the halt in publication in the first part of the year of our two most reliable journals featuring Mormon short fiction, Sunstone and Dialogue. Dialogue made a comeback, under its new editors the Chandlers, and published three issues in fairly rapid succession in the second half of the year (all of which are officially dated 1999). The first didn't have any stories, but the second (32:3) was a special AML-sponsored issue, containing four pieces of fiction. The fact that Neal Chandler himself is a published short story author (and professor of literature, I think, in Ohio) certainly bodes well for more good stories in the future. Sunstone finally came out with an issue in the Fall, with one short story. Hopefully these two journals will be back to normal next year. There were two collections of short stories published that I know of, both by non-Mormon, literary presses. Darrel Spencer taught at BYU for quite a while where he helped train a number of AML-listers out there, I think. Now he is at Ohio University. His collection, Caution: Men in Trees, won the Flannery O'Conner award. This collection of stories is less experimental and more accessible than his two earlier ones, but it still is going to appeal to a very small audience, I think. As I read them, I could see that this was a skilled author, but I kept thinking of excuses of other things to do rather than finish the collection. It was just kind of dull. I felt the same way about the recent Paul Rawlins collection (but not the recent Irreantum story) and Brady Udall collection, and the Wayne Jorgensen story in Dialogue. Just not very interesting. It isn’t that I don’t like "literary" authors, I loved Mary Clyde’s 1999 collection "Survival Rates". These stories just seemed to lack enough juice to encourage me to read more. Anyway, the other collection of stories is Brian Evenson’s Contagion and Other Stories. I haven't seen it, and haven't heard word one about it yet except for a newspaper review quoted in Irreantum. There were also several novel excerpts published in magazines, including two by Young/Gray, and ones by Bennion, Brown, and McColm. My favorite stories I have read so far are all the stories from the most recent Irreantum (especially Rawlins, Hunter, and Peterson) and Chris Bigelow's one in the 2:2 Irreantum. I also liked the Reed McColm story--even though the ending (brave little sick boy convinces his mother to get baptized through the force of his pluck) seems a little manipulative, I still fell for it all the way, and the overall writing was great. It is supposed to be from a forthcoming novel, I hope it gets published. And how about that Thayer fable/story in Dialogue? It seemed like quite a switch from his usual stories. I haven't read the Ottesen story in Sunstone yet, maybe I should subscribe. Our speculative fiction regulars continue to plug away, especially the ever-busy Bell. Actually, there were no SF novels by any of our mainstays in 2000. But really that was an anomaly, Card had novels about Bean and Ender published late in 1999 and early in 2001, and Wolverton/Farland was about the same with Runelords novels in 1999 and 2001. Of course there were also quite a few stories published in BYU's literary journal Inscape and the science fiction magazine Leading Edge, but they flew below my radar. (Is there a database for literary magazines? I bet people like Clyde and Rawlins are publishing stories out there, I just don’t know where they are.) Short Stories Allred, Lee. "The Greatest Danger." In Drakas! ed. S. M. Stirling, Baen Books, 2000. Bell, M. Shayne. "At Bud Light Old Faithful." Interzone Feb 2000. "Homeless, With Aliens," Science Fiction Age 8, March 2000. "Balance Due." Asimov's, Dec. 2000. Bigelow, Christopher K. "Daughters of Hysteria." Irreantum, 2:2, 2000. Bronson, Scott. "And the Moon Became as Blood." Irreantum, 2:1, 2000. Brown, Marilyn. "The Black Canary." Irreantum, 2:1, 2000. "Aftermath" Irreantum, 2:3 2000. Excerpt from Wine-Dark Sea. Dalton-Woodbury, Kathleen. "The Janitor’s Closet." Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Fantasy Magazine. Spring 2000. Evenson, Brian. Contagion and Other Stories. Wordcraft, 2000. Hunter, Rodello H. "The Day of the Dog" Irreantum 2:3, 2000. Jorgensen, Wayne. "Measures of Music." Dialogue, 32:3, Fall 1999 (2000). McColm, Reed. "There is Always Someplace Else." Dialogue, Fall 1999 (2000). Novel excerpt. Ottesen, Carol Clark. "The Embroidered Jacket". 1997 Sunstone prize winner. Sunstone, May 2000. Peterson, Dorothy. "The House." Irreantum, 2:3 2000. Petersen, Todd Robert. "Long After Dark." Irreantum, 2:2, 2000. Rawlins, Paul. "Faith of the Fathers." Irreantum, 2:3, 2000. Spencer, Darrell. Caution, Men in Trees. University of Georgia Press, 2000. Thatcher, [Bruce] Franklin. "Luther and the Dragon." Realms of Fantasy 7, 2000. "The Lion Sleeps." Irreantum, Autumn 2000. Thayer, Douglas. "Brother Melrose.” Dialogue 32:3, Fall 1999. Juvenile Of last year’s juvenile novels, I have read exactly none, so I can’t say anything about them. But from the descriptions, several of them look like they take on pretty tough themes. The genre also seems to be dominated by women. I've enjoyed Louise Plummer's books in the past, and I see her new one is in my library, so I'll probably read that sometime. Covenant appears to be the only publisher within the Mormon publishing community challenging Deseret in this genre. Andersen, C.B. The Book of Mormon Sleuth. Bookcraft. Fun, inventive story, one AML reviewer said. Bartholomew, Lois Thompson. The White Dove. Houghton Mifflin. Fantasy/adventure, about a monarchy and democracy. For ages 9-12. Blum, Vicki. The Shadow Unicorn. Scholastic Canada. Brady, Laurel Stowe. Say You Are My Sister. Harper Collins. For children age 9-12, deals with African- American issues in 1944 Georgia. Crane, Cheri. Sabrina and Kate. Covenant. Hulme, Joy N. Through the Open Door. HarperCollins. Children’s book about frontier-era Mormon. She has written several children’s books. Plummer, Louise. A Dance for Three. Doubleday. About teenage pregnancy. Her earlier books were usually romantic comedies, but this is a more serious book. Set in SLC, with Mormon characters. Torres, Laura. November Ever After. Holiday House. For 12 and up, deals with religion and homosexuality. Author has also published several popular craft books. Weyland, Jack. Ashley and Jen. Deseret. Also I assume there were YA short stories in each issue of the New Era, but I couldn't tell you anything about them. In my final post I'll discuss plays, essays, and web magazines. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 18 Jan 2001 14:24:18 -0700 Chris Bigelow said: > To me the U.S. war on drugs is a prime example of relying on the > arm of flesh, something that even religious people do all too > often when trying to resist sin and change behavior. Watching the > film from that Mormon point of view was quite interesting. The > war on drugs seems to be emphasizing all the wrong things. I doubt you're really advocating reliance on prayer to fight the drug epidemic. Other than a general societal healing by turning to God, what measures do you advocate that don't rely on the arm of flesh? -- Scott Tarbet [MOD: I'm interested in the response too, but need to encourage us to make a literary connection if possible.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 18 Jan 2001 14:47:19 -0700 > My working hypothesis is to use local culture and throw in a few Mormon >words and phrases. And I am grateful for the opportunity to share my >thoughts... I've also noticed that people are grateful to stand on their feet this day to express their gratitude. You sure don't hear that anywhere else. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History (was: Year in Review) Date: 18 Jan 2001 15:21:16 -0700 On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:18:06 -0700, Margaret Young wrote: >Help me out here. The >subject of what we should or should not be writing, being Mormons, is a >frequent topic of discussion. Can we have a little more of it? I'm >also extremely interested in how you individually have dealt with the >Church's historical problems and held onto your testimonies, and how >you've helped others through their own problems. If it gets too >personal (or if Jonathan feels it's off-topic), please e-mail me >individually. I need to hear from you SOON. I have a good friend who is related to the missionary in Texas who was beaten. He served his mission in Haiti. He has a long-standing = frustration with the Church PR machine and discrepancies between his own experiences = and Church releases. In the case in Texas, the elder (his brother-in-law) is= in *much* more serious a condition than was reported in *any* church outlet. Church PR continues to paint his condition and recovery in terms that = vastly overstate his actual condition--they reflect more hope than reality. Working as an AP in Haiti was an additional eye opener. Only new missionaries were in the country legally, for example (visa's are only = given for three months and the missionaries just bribe their way out of the country). A lot of emphasis is placed on obeying the laws of the land, = but when the rubber meets the road, some things turn out to be, er, = negotiable. Yet his testimony remains strong. He puts it in this phrase: "The church= is true, if not always truthful". Personally, I don't hold truth to be the absolute good some people hold = it to be. I strive to be honest in all my dealings, but I temper that honesty--hopefully with compassion and not self-interest. I don't know = the details of any church scandals or anything that was done to cover them = up. I don't have any trouble imagining that they may exist and it doesn't disturb me. People do things for different reasons. We don't know the = full history of anything and we frankly wont. Ever. Knowing it all is vastly overrated as a good thing, anyway. If something is being covered up that= is important to my salvation, I'd be concerned. But nothing is. The beauty= of the gospel is that I don't depend on the Church for my salvation. The Church provides saving ordinances, and those ordinances are important and they are true. We have the prophet who is led by God to give us what we need to aid us in our salvation. We follow him to our benefit and ignore him to our peril. But the best message of the gospel is that there is no proxy between us = and God. In effect, I don't care what happened at Mountain Meadows or who covered what up. I don't care what Porter Rockwell did or did not do at = the behest of anyone or on his own. Those things do not impact *my* = salvation. My testimony is based on Joseph Smith being a true prophet, President Hinckley is a true prophet, Jesus Christ is my savior, and God exists, = loves me, and has provided everything I need to draw closer to him and be like him. Nowhere in there is any kind of belief in the perfection or infallibility of Joseph Smith, President Hinckley or anyone except God = and Jesus Christ. So even if the Church is not always truthful, it is still True. Please note that it isn't that I don't find things interesting. And I = don't advocate ignorance as a good. I like knowing things and I'm glad when others take the time I don't have to find things out and tell me about = them. I'd certainly prefer to know the truth to being fed a lie. However, it = will take more than finding out about the sins of others to pull me away from = the gospel or the Church. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 17 Jan 2001 23:49:22 -0600 >Now, speaking of Marilyn Brown: At >the AML conference, Ron Carter suggested by implication that maybe she >shouldn't have published a book about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. He >asked the rhetorical question, "Do we really need to review some aspects >of our history?" I find that troubling. I find that troubling too. Of course, the Massacre itself was a very troubling event. But my answer to that question is yes. Yes, we do. Excuse me. But would anyone settle for anyone asking that exact question of the Holocaust, just because it was and ugly and brutal segment of history? Or slavery? I don't think so. At the end of our lives is any one of us going to get away with squirming in our seats in front of the Lord, saying, "Do we really need to review _that_ part of my life?" And He will say, "Okay, sure, that was unpleasant, let's skip it." No, rather, I think we're going to know exactly everything He has paid for. I apologize, but this kind of attitude gets to me. You have to clean a wound before it can heal. And to get a wound clean, somebody's got to look at it. >Help me out here. The >subject of what we should or should not be writing, being Mormons, is a >frequent topic of discussion. Can we have a little more of it? I get really tired of the whole discussion of "shoulds." I think the "shoulds" are the _major_ reason that has prevented us as Mormon artists from creating much in the way of excellence and caused mediocrity instead. I think it's time to move on from worrying about what we "should" be doing and just do _something._ Turn off that editor and write. Oh, but I talk big. I'm really just full of hot air, and I worry about what I "should" do as much as anybody. Everything--from I _should_ be doing laundry, sleeping, or planning meals , I _should_ be working on my next manuscript right now (Richard Hopkins will second that one!!), I _should_ write about this, I _should_ write about that, I _shouldn't_ include x or y content in a Mormon novel for a Mormon audience. But I find, much of the time, those "shoulds" actually keep me from going out and (to quote _God's Army_) "do[ing] some good." I even wrote a poem about my husband reading over my shoulder saying, "You shouldn't publish that..." (Based on real experiences. But he never tells me I shouldn't have _written_ something. Two very, very different things.) That said, I'm also on the side that is tired of reading faithless stories, stories critical of the Church, its doctrine, policy, or leaders. But I'm also tired of reading fluff. So I say we should write more of what's in our hearts. Less what we think others want to hear. Tell your story. Make it true to your heart. If the story you want to tell is Mountain Meadows, so be it. I wish I could come up with more on this, but it's late and I'm tired (like the guy in that Blockbuster commercial.) My thoughts aren't all completely coherent. Linda ========= Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 18 Jan 2001 16:46:12 -0700 > Ron Carter suggested by implication that maybe she > shouldn't have published a book about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. > He asked the rhetorical question, "Do we really need to review some > aspects of our history?" If we're going to review history at all it would be unconsionable to pick and choose only the aspacts that reflect well on our behalf. You can bet that many a Mormon would bristle if any history textbook about the state of Missouri left out the extermination proclamation and other aspects of the state's history in its dealings with Mormons. Why then should Mormons try to brush aside any negative aspects of our history in dealings with Missourians? History cannot be painted in broad strokes. Thge story of a People is made up of the the individual lives of its people. What a glorious thing it is for us to say that our ancestors (even if they are ancestors only in the spiritual sense) crossed the plains and carved out a new world in the desert. Fine. But not all of those people were terribly noble. Some of them were real whiners. But its the powerfully noble and the midling noble and the not so noble and the downright ignoble who make up the People and tell the whole story. > I just got a note from a friend announcing that she is > leaving the Church. The historical problems AND THE COVER-UPS just > got too much for her. Well, now I don't really know what to suggest about that. Every day I come closer to the deep conviction that people do just what they want to do. If they decide that they don't like what they're doing, they repent and change. But, I understand that brains can get screwed up by twisted training. A Good Mormon girl I dated in high school went Bad while I was on my mission. When I got home and didn't call her for six weeks she called me and wanted to get together. After dinner she asked me why I wasn't interested in seeing her any more. Blah, blah, blah and she was having a hard time figuring out why she had gone Bad. I suggested that she had been brought up to believe that she should -- and could -- become a Perfect Little Mormon Girl. But that one day she figured out that that was impossible and had no substantial belief system that could compensate for coming to that truth, so she went with the opposite of the Perfect Little Mormon Girl since that was pretty much the only other thing she felt she could be. She started freaking out. We dropped the subject. Point being, perhaps your friend doesn't have the belief system available to her that allows even high standing authorities of the church to practice subterfuge in a church that purports to contain all the truth necessary for salvation. Many of us understand that if the people running and simply being in the church were better than they are, Christ might already have come by now. Perhaps Joseph Smith was becoming that good of a person. He was told that if he lived to be eighty he would see Christ come in his glory. The process of becoming a Zion people is a long one, filled with mistakes and perhaps even a bit of larceny along the way. But that doesn't make it unworthy of our efforts to make it happen. We forgive, we overcome, we move on. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: RE: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 18 Jan 2001 17:46:45 -0500 but after visitng other >colleges and being treated like a reactionary Aryan Nationalist, it's nice to be >somewhere where I can actually take the gospel seriously. ===================================== One could jump to interesting, albiet unwarrented, conclusions based on this statement. I'd like to write more if I had the time - but the people who drafted the media >document were for the most part willing to let the professors decide on their >own what they wanted to do and use. That does not sound like the right-wing >fascists you seem to think they are. ======================================== But doesn't this really beg the real issue? So some particular committee, consisting of particular individuals, does not commit egregious excesses, the real issue is that such a committee exists. And as long as it exists, there is the potential for mischief, and thus a chilling effect. How many faculty feel constrained, just because such a committee does exist? The make-up of committees can change. The history of these things suggests that no one is safe when such devices exist. And those who are most vulnerable are people such as yourself, who are without guile, feel comfortable, on the inside, unsuspecting, but then, willy-nilly, find yourself targeted. The only constraints I am aware of, at my university, are those that are recognized in the broader laws of the land--constraints arising out of such things as sexual harrassment, or rank violation of professional ethics. But, let the record show, I only teach political science, and there's no need to use provocative visual aids there. Merlyn Clarke > > > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 18 Jan 2001 17:48:45 -0600 > >On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 12:28:40PM -0800, plus two wrote: > >> Does anyone have any theories or observations of how > >> 'contemporary' Mormons speak? What do they speak > >> about? Do they exhibit any linguistic patterns that > >> mark them as Mormon? Recently on another list, someone said one of the great things about being LDS was the collection of unique words, such as Rabbanah Rahleenos Rameumptom Urim Thummim Kolob Shinehah Kokob Kokaubeam Olea Gnolaum Senine Seon Shum Limnah Senum Amnor Ezrom Onti Shiblon Shiblum Leah Antion Baurak Ale Baneemy Gazalem E - beth - ka -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shelly Choong" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 18 Jan 2001 18:45:34 -0800 Michael Martindale wrote in part: > > I've held onto my testimony by repudiating the unworkable folk doctrine > that our leaders need to be "almost perfect." Rather than discouraging > me, this reassures me. Maybe I have a better chance at exaltation than I > thought. Maybe Christ's atonement really does make up for our human > weaknesses, as long as we're trying to make progress in the right > direction. > > Whether this helps anyone else with their testimony, I have no idea. Helps mine. I work from this angle myself and have found that I find strength, courage and hope from the reality that God's forgiveness covers some pretty big stuff--such as the lost of the first pages of the Book of Mormon, Peter's denial, etc. One of my favorite stories in the Bible is about Jonah, who tries to run away from his duty to the Lord--the consequential process of repentance and forgiveness that Jonah goes through is full of all kinds of lessons about fear and mercy--not to mention the typifying of Christ and His three days in the grave. These stories show me the true nature of God and His ever reaching mercy. Plus it makes it very clear that He really does understand mortality. I think this is one of the biggest lessons the scriptures can teach us and the lesson comes through the weaknesses of the prophets. Also, when one looks at the mistakes of those men who are leading, it makes their triumphs all the more glorious--and helps me understand that they really do rely on Heavenly Father. They have too because they are so mortal. Shelly [Johnson-Choong] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 19 Jan 2001 00:56:30 -0700 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > (Best Dam play ever written). This pun is the best argument for capital punishment I've seen in a while. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 19 Jan 2001 07:16:16 -0700 William Morris asked: > What I would like is some help finding examples of > well-written dialogue in Mormon fiction. I especially > would love to hear of examples that are not pioneer, > or provincial Utah speakers, but rather are post > WWII/contemporary and/or educated/urban/suburban > Mormons speaking. Anything come to mind? Sure. Eric Samuelsen's _Singled Out_. Scott Card's _Lost Boys_. But this doesn't mean that there is such a thing as Mormon dialogue. Eric's Mormons sound like Eric ... generally. And Scott's Mormons sound like Cards. I know many of that clan and have listened to the way they talk ... and Scott really knows how to capture the Card (some foreign word for "specific quality of sound"). Which leads to your general question: > Or to be more general: > > Does anyone have any theories or observations of how > 'contemporary' Mormons speak? What do they speak > about? Do they exhibit any linguistic patterns that > mark them as Mormon? Only in what they talk about. Other than that, Mormons talk just like everybody else. Mormons from the South speak with a Southern accent. Mormons from Australia say things like "G'day" and "Mate." Mormons from Utah say "ignarnt" and "we was" while Mormons from UC Provo say "Daddy bought it for me so I guess, like, I guess I'll have to finish school if I wanna keep it. I wish it were red, though." As far as I'm concerned, the thing to really pay attention to when writing dialogue is the emotional states of the characters speaking. By the time you've got them talking you have already figured out who they are (I would imagine) and so you don't have to keep reminding yourself that this one is eductaed, this one is not and so forth. Dialogue flows from Characters who are Feeling something in a Situation. The only thing that should tag them as Mormon is the topic of conversation. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" "Anybody who sees live theatre should come out a little rearranged." Glenn Close - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 19 Jan 2001 07:31:04 -0700 > It was started by Susan Lewis, quite a good Mormon writer, > who graduated from BYU in the early eighties (and who, FWIW, I also > dated very briefly in the seventies.) And who also acted in Eric's fine (first?) play, "Playing the Game." She did a good job. It was one of the first plays I saw at BYU ... Holy Cow! ... NINETEEN years ago! Saw some very good acting by the likes of Alan Stark and Laura Wardle. Saw just how versitile a black box theater can be. Basically had a great theatrical experience and was a bit inspired by that play to give it go myself a year and a half later ... scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 20 Jan 2001 07:16:46 -0700 William, Sometimes Mormans do talk in such a way that you can pick them out in a crowd. It's not always fool proof because some other religions use some of the same words we do they just have slightly different meanings. But if you can take in their words and their apperance at the same time you have a better chance of guessing right. (This usually works best if they have already been endowed. They tend to dress to higher standards.) However, from personal experience I know that I figured out someone, that I later met, was a member by listening to a tape they spoke on. It was produce for an organization we belong to that is not associated with the church and the subject was not religion but after a few minutes of listening I figured out that he was a RM and that he and his wife were married in the temple. They were both avoiding the subject of religion so they never came right out and said it but I was right about them. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 19 Jan 2001 08:55:18 -0700 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > > I would suggest that the way to write Mormon dialogue is to spend some time really listening to Mormons dialogueing. Eric, what you said ... it was ... like, totally what I ... no, I mean it, it was great advice ... Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 19 Jan 2001 09:26:29 -0700 >IMHO, that's how you learn how to write dialogue. Reading helps some. Listening helps more. Listen to people. Be nosy. And if you have a choice of the long line at the grocery store, or the shorter line, take the longer one. People talk about the most interesting things in grocery stores. Interesting examples of some dialogue that would need a bit of work in a literary masterpiece. BTW, I find that more and more the conversations I overhear in grocery-store lines are in Spanish. Now, I can understand Spanish spoken by Americans with an American accent, but I have great difficulty with the real thing! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 19 Jan 2001 09:55:51 -0700 I've noticed a similar phrasing difference (I'm originally from Indiana) when people pray aloud in Utah. They seem to pause in similar places and not where a natural pause would be in speaking. In other words, they don't stop at the comma breaks but more often between the subject and the verb or between adjectives and nouns. They also use words differently from their real meaning, ie: praying for moisture (dew, condensation) instead of rain or snow with water content. People from Spanish Fork/Payson area will say they have to "be to" somewhere rather than using one verb or preposition or the other as is grammatically correct in the context. [LuAnn Staheli] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Clinton Epitaph from Book of Mormon Date: 19 Jan 2001 13:48:42 -0700 As we release Clinton from the American presidency with a vote of thanks, let us member that it's possible to be both a good ruler and a morally flawed person. To me, Clinton most resembles the king described in Ether 10:11-12 in the Book of Mormon: And [Morianton] did do justice unto the people, but not unto himself because of his many whoredoms; wherefore he was cut off from the presence of the Lord. And it came to pass that . . . the people became exceedingly rich under his reign. Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Re: Mormon Dialogue Date: 02 Jan 2001 08:04:39 -0700 Having moved to Utah recently, I can't agree more that the Utah dialect is terrible. I work in theater and I hate to hear these pronunciations. For instance Mr. Dale would be Mr. Dell. It is not just an attitude, it is improper vowel pronunciation. I have tried to make suggestions to several directors, but they can't get through to some people so they don't try. I am glad I gave up directing. Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Starling" Subject: [AML] Joseph Smith Movie? Date: 19 Jan 2001 14:36:32 -0700 Maybe ya'll on the list can help with this one... (my Georgia roots are = showing) I seem to remember sometime in the last couple of years a rumor about a = movie on Joseph Smith being planned by someone who was connected with = "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure". Does that ring a bell with anyone? How about any other rumors of Hollywood movies in the works about Joseph = Smith? Thanks for the help, Robert Starling - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 19 Jan 2001 15:13:36 -0700 On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:40:42 -0700, Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: >>I can't remember the guy's name >>or university, but a tenured professor was recently bashed and = >threatened by >>expressing a viewpoint contrary to popular feminism. He ended >up = resigning. > >Who, where, when, what point of view, in what discipline? These kinds = of things do happen occasionally, of course, because some feminists can = get pretty obnoxious sometimes, a trait they share with, oh, dairy = farmers, CPA's, software engineers, conservative talk show hosts, time = share condo salespeople, pest control technicians, ad copywriters, truck = drivers, bartenders. . . .=20 I actually clipped this one because of the amazing quote by Ms. = Dixon--the internal contradiction was too good to pass up. I heard it first on the radio while traveling to Washington in October. I hunted the quote down later. Here's a synapsis from a newspaper: A tenured professor, from the sociology department at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, resigned under protest because his department would = not let him conduct a course on "Political Correctness." Professor Richard Zeller was chastised by the director of BGSU's women's studies = department, Ms. Kathleen Dixon, who said, "We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech." [Jacob Proffitt] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 19 Jan 2001 15:57:51 -0700 Scott Tarbet wrote: <<< I doubt you're really advocating = reliance on prayer to fight the drug epidemic. Other than a general = societal healing by turning to God, what measures do you advocate that = don't rely on the arm of flesh? >>> I don't think the war of drugs can ever be won by any means short of the = Second Coming. Once Pandora's Box is open, it cannot be shut. To me, the = gospel is all about survival of the fittest, with the winners going to the = celestial kingdom. Drugs make the casualty rate higher, but so be it---God = has seen fit to allow more trials and testing at this time. I took = pyschedelic drugs myself during the early 80s, but fortunately they = weren't the addictive kind and I was able to grow past them and am a = stronger, more insightful person for the experience (unless I altered my = brain's serotonin capacity more than I thought and am still paying the = price emotionally).=20 I think it's fine for society to try to mitigate the bad effects of drugs = through positive alternatives such as treatment programs, but ultimately = it's up to families to help each other out at the personal level rather = than bureaucratic, as mine did me. You can't effectively combat drugs = directly, but you can try to replace them on a person-to-person level, = which to me has nothing to do with guns, raids, and the government trying = to stick its fingers in a dike with countless holes. And I think that was = the accurate message of _Traffic_.=20 How about a novel that portrays Mormonism as spiritual survival of the = fittest, which is what it is when you look past all the Christian = paradoxes? Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. >>> "Scott Tarbet" 01/18 2:24 PM >>> Chris Bigelow said: > To me the U.S. war on drugs is a prime example of relying on the > arm of flesh, something that even religious people do all too > often when trying to resist sin and change behavior. Watching the > film from that Mormon point of view was quite interesting. The > war on drugs seems to be emphasizing all the wrong things. -- Scott Tarbet [MOD: I'm interested in the response too, but need to encourage us to make = a=20 literary connection if possible.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] Clinton Epitaph from Book of Mormon Date: 19 Jan 2001 23:00:41 -0000 Chris, After almost every discussion of Clinton I have with a friend of mine, she always brings up this scripture, and has been bringing it up for at least a couple years.  And who says the BOM doesn't speak of our day? - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 19 Jan 2001 16:05:42 -0700 I swear to you the following is true:=20 One of my students last semester at Salt Lake Community college wrote the = following in a paper: "I'm sure that Ritalin can help some people, but I = don't know what the dill is with doctors prescribing it to so many = people." I also hear a Mormon accent that comes when people are trying to be extra = nice, like when making a request or offering veiled criticism. It's kind = of a sing-songy accent that I can't think of a better way to describe. Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Movie? Date: 19 Jan 2001 16:11:01 -0700 On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:36:32 -0700, Robert Starling wrote: >I seem to remember sometime in the last couple of years a rumor about a = movie on Joseph Smith being planned by someone who was connected with = "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure". Does that ring a bell with anyone? Ooo. Keanu Reeves as Joseph Smith. I'd pay to see that. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 19 Jan 2001 16:18:29 -0700 Another Utah phenomenon is transposing vowels. "I bought it at a sell." Southern Utahns refer to "over/down home." Do these occur elsewhere? Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 19 Jan 2001 16:23:18 -0700 My golly gracious sakes alive, someone still remembers Playing the Game? = Scott is very kind to mention it. And no, it wasn't my first play, it was = my third. My first play was about baseball and Kierkegaard (don't ask), = and was so bizarre, Charles (known as Chuck) Metten, upon reading it, = decided I was just the guy to write his play about Joseph Smith. So he = gave me an outline and said "fill in the blanks." The result was Letter = >From A Prophet, about Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail, and easily the worst = play in the history of Church history plays. Chuck directed it, and I = remember it fondly. Just re-read the thing the other day, with a kind of = horrified fascination that anyone could have expected actors to speak = dialogue that wooden, and also, with genuine curiosity as to what would = happen next--I'd totally forgotten the plot. =20 How about this for a thread: y'all remember your first attempts to Be A = Writer? Have you re-read old stuff and forgotten having written it? It's = fun, isn't it? I love reading early Samuelsen; he was a pretentious bore = of a writer, but his heart was in the write place.=20 Eric Samuelsen (with further apologies to D. Michael) =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 19 Jan 2001 17:26:04 -0700 Just want to add a word. I finished reading Dean Hughes' AS LONG AS I HAVE YOU, and I thought the things they talked about were pretty Mormon. There was a lot of dialogue and it sounded right on to me. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Year in Review, pt. 2 Date: 19 Jan 2001 18:20:25 -0700 --------------3A865EB4C12B9256F88C8461 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew, A Dance for Three by Louise Plummer is an excellent novel, but definately for more mature girls--high school age recommended--due to the opening scenes of implied and sometimes descriptive sexual intercourse and necking. However, the topic is timely and well-handled in this novel. It's a good look for girls who are considering becoming sexually active because of "he loves me and I love him" beliefs. Life does not work out the way Hannah, the main character, at all thinks it will. Reality sets in quickly! When it comes to excellent YA literature with a Mormon flair or character here and now, don't forget Carol Lynch Williams. Carol published two books this past year, Carolina in the Morning and Christmas in Heaven for the mainstream YA market. If anyone is interested, see my reviews of both titles at Amazon.com under signature "allstars." --------------3A865EB4C12B9256F88C8461 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew,
A Dance for Three by Louise Plummer is an excellent novel, but definately for more mature girls--high school age recommended--due to the opening scenes of implied and sometimes descriptive sexual intercourse and necking. However, the topic is timely and well-handled in this novel. It's a good look for girls who are considering becoming sexually active because of "he loves me and I love him" beliefs. Life does not work out the way Hannah, the main character, at all thinks it will. Reality sets in quickly!

When it comes to excellent YA literature with a Mormon flair or character here and now, don't forget Carol Lynch Williams. Carol published two books this past year, Carolina in the Morning and Christmas in Heaven for the mainstream YA market. If anyone is interested, see my reviews of both titles at Amazon.com under signature "allstars." --------------3A865EB4C12B9256F88C8461-- [LuAnn Staheli] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Moderator Note Date: 20 Jan 2001 16:12:13 -0600 Folks, Just a reminder to people to sign your posts. Thanks. Jonathan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 19 Jan 2001 20:06:36 -0700 Thom Duncan wrote: >This may be the pot calling the kettle black, or the classic chicken and >egg argument, but I'll say it anyway. Extreme voices cry out because >they have not been heard while using kinder words. There's no reason to >scream if you're being listened to. Extreme voices cry out because they want to be accepted, not listened to. I would argue that most voices are heard--be they liberal or conservative or anything else. People scream because they can't accept that others don't have the same opinion. They scream because they want others to believe as they do and tell them that their belief is right. They scream because they don't trust that others are as intelligent or discerning or capable as they are. I think people hear the extreme voices; they just don't agree with them. And you know what? I think it's okay not to agree. Please pardon the cranky response, but I'm really tired of people villianizing anyone whose opinions or conclusions differ from their own. I still believe that good, righteous, reasonable people can come to equally valid but different opinions on pretty much anything without there being a need for one of them to be wrong. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 19 Jan 2001 21:45:00 -0700 I noticed the funniest thing when I moved to Utah a few years ago. This is not a Mormon thing but a Utah Mormon thing. People who didn't know I was LDS would make a reference to the church but instead of just saying it, they would mumble into their hand. One person told me that the person who watched her son when she went back to school was her "mishmnry cmpanyn". Another person told me he couldn't come to a meeting because his wife had "yng wommn's" that night. I nearly burst out laughing. Both relaxed considerably after I told them that it was ok, I was Mormon too. Debbie Wager - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "thomasb5" Subject: Re: [AML] BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes Date: 19 Jan 2001 19:31:36 -0600 On another list that I am on, we were discussing the statement by the Church regarding watching R-rated films. Several members who live in other countries said that in their nations, they do not have the same rating system and in one case, they did not even have a rating system. I agree with your statement about films that can uplift you or downgrade you regardless of their rating. Besides, why are we allowing people who select the ratings to make choices for us when we have no idea about who they are or what their values and beliefs are. Rick T [MOD: I'd like to encourage us to stay away from a discussion of the rating system in the abstract at this time. This is one of those topics that we seem to need to discuss every so often on the List, but I think it hasn't been all that long since the last time this topic came around. So while I'll go ahead and post comments like this that come through in the context of the BYU policy--which is certainly one of our current topics--I'd rather we didn't get into the full-blown ratings system discussion at this time. By the way, has anyone else noticed that the original article heading seemed to suggest that a complete ban on R ratings is part of the draft, while according to Eric Samuelsen this isn't actually there? Also, if the policy draft is not a confidential document, I would welcome a copy to post on the List--or if there's some online location to which a link could be posted, I'd welcome that too. I always favor having a chance to see the document one is ranting about...] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Mormon Dialogue Date: 20 Jan 2001 00:31:27 -0700 mcnandon wrote: > Having moved to Utah recently, I can't agree more that the Utah dialect is > terrible. Why is one dialect more "terrible" than another? The only reason your theater English is considered proper is because it happened to be the dialect of English the king spoke at the time society decided to choose a "superior" dialect. Except that even that dialect has been Americanized considerably since then. What you think of as proper English would sound terrible to someone speaking the "King's English." -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 20 Jan 2001 00:52:10 -0700 Linda Adams wrote: > I get really tired of the whole discussion of "shoulds." I think the > "shoulds" are the _major_ reason that has prevented us as Mormon artists > from creating much in the way of excellence and caused mediocrity instead. > I think it's time to move on from worrying about what we "should" be doing > and just do _something._ You and me both. This is what it sounds like to me when someone uses a "should" on me: "You're evil because you don't think exactly like me." Do any of the people who use the word "should" a lot think that's what they're saying? I seriously doubt it. But I find it hard to interpret what they're saying in any other way. I have no problem with people expressing their beliefs--even strongly--and defending them with solid arguments. But that's not what a "should" is. A "should" is someone asserting the truth of something as if it were self-evident, and becoming judgmental toward someone who doesn't accept their statement. What says they're sense of morality is better than mine? Put simply, we ought to trust the motives of fellow Saints, even if we may question their good judgment. And when we do question their judgment, we need to do it in a tentative way: "It seems to me," or "I think," or "In my opinion." But not "You should." And because life likes to be messy and avoid convenient little packaging, I'm convinced everyone _should_ think like I do on this. Isn't it self-evident? > I'm really just full of hot air, and I worry about what > I "should" do as much as anybody. "I should" is okay. It's "you should" that's a problem. > Everything--from I _should_ be doing > laundry, sleeping, or planning meals , I _should_ be working on my next > manuscript right now (Richard Hopkins will second that one!!), I _should_ > write about this, I _should_ write about that, I _shouldn't_ include x or y > content in a Mormon novel for a Mormon audience. But I find, much of the > time, those "shoulds" actually keep me from going out and (to quote _God's > Army_) "do[ing] some good." Well, yes, there's that. But it's a different issue. "You should" encroaches where people have no business going. "I should" is a personal choice that may restrict your talents more than necessary, but at least it's you doing it to yourself. > I even wrote a poem about my husband reading > over my shoulder saying, "You shouldn't publish that..." (Based on real > experiences. But he never tells me I shouldn't have _written_ something. > Two very, very different things.) Not to me they aren't. It's still a "should." "If you publish that, you know what's going to happen, don't you?" is a much better approach that let's the speaker express his concerns and lets the listener hear and consider them, without robbing the listener of dignity and respect. "Should" is spoken to subordinates, not peers. (Which is why prophets inspired by God can say "should"--in other words, "thou shalt." They're speaking for God, and we _are_ subordinate to him.) > That said, I'm also on the side that is tired of reading faithless stories, > stories critical of the Church, its doctrine, policy, or leaders. But I'm > also tired of reading fluff. So I say we should write more of what's in our > hearts. Less what we think others want to hear. Tell your story. Make it > true to your heart. If the story you want to tell is Mountain Meadows, so > be it. Naughty, naughty, you said "should." Of course, we don't want to play silly semantic games either. We often use "should" when we are actually expressing our opinion in the arena of ideas, and everyone reading it recognizes that fact. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between a "should" that's expressing an opinion and a "should" that's attempting to control others. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Movie? Date: 20 Jan 2001 02:34:33 -0700 >Maybe ya'll on the list can help with this one... (my Georgia roots >are showing) > >I seem to remember sometime in the last couple of years a rumor >about a movie on Joseph Smith being planned by someone who was >connected with "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure". Does that ring >a bell with anyone? > >How about any other rumors of Hollywood movies in the works about >Joseph Smith? > >Thanks for the help, >Robert Starling The Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com), which is amazingly thorough even on films still in production, lists a few movies that feature characters named "Joseph Smith." But none of them are at all what you're talking about. The director of "Bill & Ted" has a film coming out in 2001, but it's called "Rock Star," which unfortunately probably is not about the prophet. If such a film is in development, it must still be in very early development, or else it would probably be listed on imdb. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Linda Adams Updated URL Date: 20 Jan 2001 16:33:10 -0600 FYI, I have moved my website from Xoom/NBCi to a new and I hope permanent location with my account at Earthlink/sprintmail. Please update your links and bookmarks. Thanks! The new address is: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo (This change does not affect the AML-List Living Room URL.) Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: [AML] Mormon Arts Festival Date: 20 Jan 2001 15:40:41 -0700 Hey, does anyone know what is going on with the Mormon Arts Festival? I got a letter last year saying they were going to a once-every-two-years format but I haven't heard anything about MAF this year. Wasn't it usually sometime in early March? Anyhow, just wondering. Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Extreme Voices (was: BYU May Ban 'R' From Classes) Date: 20 Jan 2001 16:20:17 -0700 Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > Thom Duncan wrote: > > >This may be the pot calling the kettle black, or the classic chicken and > >egg argument, but I'll say it anyway. Extreme voices cry out because > >they have not been heard while using kinder words. There's no reason to > >scream if you're being listened to. > > Extreme voices cry out because they want to be accepted, not listened > to. I would argue that most voices are heard--be they liberal or > conservative or anything else. > > People scream because they can't accept that others don't have the > same opinion. They scream because they want others to believe as they > do and tell them that their belief is right. They scream because they > don't trust that others are as intelligent or discerning or capable > as they are. I'm more than delighted to share my radical ideas with anyone in a calm, well-modulated voice. But when the hearer gets to make the rules, defining what is shrill and what is not, then what can you do but scream? There ARE some people who just don't want to hear anything contrary to their own pre-conceived ideas and will choose to label anything that differs from that as contention. > I still believe that good, righteous, reasonable people can come > to equally valid but different opinions on pretty much anything > without there being a need for one of them to be wrong. Granted. But what do you do when you're trying to communicate with bad, unrighteousness, or unreasonable people? Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] WHALEN Book Title--Reliable? Date: 20 Jan 2001 23:16:31 GMT I purchased a copy of William J. Whalen's "The Latter-day Saints in the = Modern Day World" to day at a library book sale. Anyone know if this is a reliable source? Thanks. --=20 Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Lawsuit Over "Children of the Promise" Dismissed: Deseret News Date: 20 Jan 2001 19:07:13 -0600 News 16Jan01 A2 [From Mormon-News] Lawsuit Over "Children of the Promise" Dismissed SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- The memoir of an LDS soldier who survived a Japanese POW camp during World War II is historical fact, and can't be copyrighted, ruled US District Judge Dale A. Kimball last week. Kimball's ruling threw out the lawsuit filed by the former soldier, Gene Jacobsen, against LDS author Dean Hughes and his publisher, LDS Church-owned Deseret Book. Hughes used Jacobsen's story as the basis for one of the characters in his "Children of the Promise" series, Wally Thomas, but, according to Judge Kimball, the account in Hughes' novels "expanded over time and geography" more than Jacobsen's story. "It is clear to this court that Wally Thomas is not Gene Jacobsen." Jacobsen filed his copyright claim a year ago, after Deseret Book had published the third novel in the series. But Judge Kimball pointed out that it took Jacobsen three years to raise any objection to the inclusion of his story in the novels. "Had Jacobsen voiced his disapproval in 1996, Hughes would have had the opportunity to take the offending material out of the books," he wrote in his decision. In fact, Hughes claimed that he sent a copy of an early draft of his first novel to Jacobsen, suggesting that he let him know if the treatment in the novel bothered him, and got a note back saying that Jacobsen, "looked forward to the finished product." Jacobsen's attorney, Brent O. Hatch said his client intends to appeal because the Judge dismissed the case on a "technical" legal point. "One of the things that's troubling is that the judge completely ignored all of the evidence that Mr. Hughes had copied from Dr. Jacobsen's work," Hatch said. Source: Judge dismisses lawsuit against publisher, author Deseret News 16Jan01 A2 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,245014309,00.html By Maria Titze: Deseret News staff writer >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: plus two Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 20 Jan 2001 19:21:18 -0800 (PST) Wow. Thanks to everyone for the responses, whether they were general or specific observations, book recommendations, or writing tips. You've given me a lot to think about. I wish I had the time to respond to each of the posts. Just a few things I'd like to add: My favorite Southern Utahn phrase is "Aww fer cuute!" Many of the women in my family, especially those who grew up during the 30's, 40s, and 50s use this phrase. I highly recommend it to any of you who aren't particularly sure what to say when you have pictures of babies thrust in your face. Several list members identified a constellation of discourse markers that Utah Mormons use-----mumbling, strange set phrases, awkward pausing. Ethan Skarstedt went so far as to use the word 'smarmy' in his observation that National Guard members seem more direct in their communication than Mormons. I can see some interesting literary implications in these observations. For instance, I think it'd be interesting to see a play or read a piece of fiction that has several scenes where a character goes through various outward personae. Does he or she speak in the same way when speaking with non-Mormons versus when at church versus when conversing with Mormon friends versus when speaking to his/her family in the home? What are the implications of the various registers?----or even scarier, what if that register never changes? Have you met people who seem to speak in the same tone, use the same smarmy phrasing no matter what discourse community they're speaking to? I wonder about those kind of people---what kind of interior life it takes to be that way (almost) all the time. I could also, however, picture a great piece of fiction with a character who mumbles, uses set phrases, reads the scriptures in a monotone etc., but who in some other way (perhaps in the way he or she relates to nature, or speaks to children, or prays alone) is incredibly vibrant and in tune with some aspects of the gospel. Finally, an observation of my own. It seems to me that there is a particular discourse pattern among Mormons that is used to explain major decisions. This pattern, I believe, takes its cue from Doctrine and Covenants Section 9 where the Lord through Joseph Smith explains to Oliver Cowdery the process of translating. Verse 8 is the one that most applies: "But behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." I have found that Mormons often use words that reference this verse and mimic this pattern as they speak about personal decisions, like where to go to college, or how many children to have etc. It happens most often, I think, in formal church settings (Elder's Quorum meeting comes to mind), but in others as well. I recall my parents using this patter as they explained to me why, when my dad lost his job, they decided not to leave the Bay Area and move back to Utah (I, rational teenage that I was, couldn't understand why we wouldn't go where the cost of living was lower). One of the more interesting manifestations of this came at Steve Young's retirement press conference: "But for today, obviously, this is a tough decision. But I know that I have made the right one because I have studied it out. And I really feel it in my heart, and I can't deny it. And so I retire from the great game of football today." Notice that he omits the praying part for the national audience, but the rest is all there (and by assumption the praying part is there for his Mormon audience to automatically fill-in---and they do because he mimics the language of the D&C so closely). What I find so interesting about this pattern is that it involves both rational and irrational thought----we study and we feel. And both have to be there. I don't fully know what implications that this observation might have for Mormon literature, but I'm sure there are already examples out there that employ (maybe even subvert) this pattern. ~~William Morris NOTE: It is odd to me to see my messages coming from "plus two." I wish that they more properly announced me, but my work e-mail is the 'william morris' one. I use this one for the list because it helps me keep things organized (and is more private than my official one). rareyellow refers to yeti, the yellow tabby cat who lives with us. plus two is, of course, my wife and I. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cratkinson Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 21 Jan 2001 07:15:47 -0800 (PST) Chris Bigelow wrote: I swear to you the following is true: One of my students last semester at Salt Lake Community college wrote the following in a paper: "I'm sure that Ritalin can help some people, but I don't know what the dill is with doctors prescribing it to so many people." ~~~~~~~~ I worked in a real estate (pronounced "rill astate") office for a short time. One of the realtors (pronounced "rill-a-ders") whose name was Dale (pronounced "Dell") announced one day that "this sell felled." It took me a few minutes to figure out that he meant that the sale had failed. However, I think this is a Utah accent - maybe even a Spanish Fork accent - more than a Mormon one. -Christine Atkinson _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Moderator Note Date: 21 Jan 2001 12:55:30 -0700 Just a reminder to Jonathan how grateful all of us are that he is doing this job for us so we can talk to each other. Thank you so much, Jonathan! You're a trooper! Sincerely, Marilyn Brown (And don't be shy! Put this note on there!) [MOD: Aw, shucks...] ----- Original Message ----- > Folks, > > Just a reminder to people to sign your posts. Thanks. > > Jonathan > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History (was: Year in Review) Date: 21 Jan 2001 13:10:10 -0700 I peeked at this entire message and was very excited about being a twin to Margaret! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History (was: Year in Review) Date: 21 Jan 2001 13:15:02 -0700 Michael Martindale wrote: "Trying to pretend the mistakes don't exist does what disingenuousness does: destroys one's credibility." Thanks to everyone sticking up for dealing with history. Part of the A-ONE-MENT that Christ expects of us is to understand being human and accept it. We can accept others' mistakes if, as you say, they humbly repent and teach us something. That's what I hope we'll get returning to the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Anyway, I love those people and feel heartbreak for what they suffered. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Year in Review, Pt. 1 Date: 21 Jan 2001 13:44:38 -0700 When I got to the bottom of the barrel I let fill up while I was on vacation I found Andrew Hall's wonderful SUMMARY and wow! Also, I found the rock-bottom reason for Margaret's agreeing to be my twin! And I was happy about all of it. Thank you, Andrew for producing this doc. We appreciate all you do. And I am anxiously looking forward to seeing more from you! Sincerely, Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Hughes Lawsuit Dismissed (Deseret News) Date: 22 Jan 2001 12:16:28 +0900 Tuesday, January 16, 2001 Judge dismisses lawsuit against publisher, author By Maria Titze Deseret News staff writer Historical facts cannot be copyrighted, a federal judge said last week when he dismissed a lawsuit by a World War II veteran against a Provo writer and Deseret Book Co. Gene Jacobsen, a resident of Washington County, says Deseret Book and author Dean Hughes used portions of his personal history in a four-volume series of fiction books called "Children of the Promise." Hughes writes about the experiences of a character named Wally Thomas, who was a Japanese prisoner of war in the Philippines for more than three years. "Wally Thomas is Gene Jacobsen," the suit alleged. But U.S. District Judge Dale A. Kimball read both the memoir and the novels and disagreed. "The character of Wally is a complex character that is placed in various settings," Kimball wrote in an order released Friday. "Only a portion of his story takes place in the Philippines and Japan . . . the memoir deals only with Jacobsen's experiences in a limited matter and does not expand much over time and geography as do Hughes' novels. "It is clear to this court that Wally is not Gene Jacobsen." Kimball also said that factual stories cannot be copyrighted: Copyright laws protect originality, but no one can copyright facts. "In reading the memoir it appears to this court that although it is a thoughtful work of courage, honor, discipline and perseverance, it is a historical work that is not protectable under the copyright laws," Kimball said. But Jacobsen's attorney, Brent O. Hatch, said the judge has dismissed the case on a "technical" legal point and that his client intends to appeal. "One of the things that's troubling is that the judge completely ignored all of the evidence that Mr. Hughes had copied from Dr. Jacobsen's work," Hatch said. Jacobsen is an emeritus professor of education administration at the University of Utah. Hatch said that Hughes testified in a deposition that at times he paraphrased from Jacobsen's journal. He also said a Deseret Book internal memo indicated that Jacobsen's manuscript — which was rejected twice for publication by the company — could not be published because the stories had already appeared in Hughes' novels. "Clearly, our story hasn't been told yet," Hatch said. Deseret Book attorney Mary Anne Q. Wood said the judge was "exactly right in his decision." Hughes dedicated the first book in the series to Jacobsen, Wood said. "He knew about it and waived any opportunity to object." In his ruling, Kimball said Jacobsen did not "express any disapproval" of the series until 1999, after the third volume had been published. "Had Jacobsen voiced his disapproval in 1996, Hughes would have had the opportunity to take the offending material out of the books," Kimball wrote. "For Jacobsen to wait until three volumes of the series had been published before voicing his disapproval, when it is clear he had ample opportunity to let Hughes know of his disapproval as early as 1996, results in extreme prejudice to Hughes." Hughes said that he sent an early version of the first book to Jacobsen with a note that said, "I don't want to do anything you wouldn't feel good about, so let me know if anything is either wrong or somehow troubles you." Hughes said Jacobsen responded in March 1999 with a note that said he "looked forward to the finished product." But Jacobsen told the court he never read the material and that the excerpts he did glance at did not include anything from his memoir. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] Gerald LUND, _The Freedom Factor_ (Review) Date: 22 Jan 2001 06:11:35 GMT Review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Gerald N. Lund, "The Freedom Factor" 1987, Deseret Book Company Hardback, 295 pages, $12.95 (There may be a paperback reprint of this book.) Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle By now it may be a bit redundant to review an older book by Lund. He ha= s=20 since written so voluminously and with such acclaim that earlier works=20= may not engender much interest. But given the spurt of republication of= =20 Lund's works, they may be worth a second look. The volume I have is an = original hardback printing from 1987. The hero of "The Freedom Factor" is a young senatorial aide named Bryce = Sherwood. The Senate is getting ready to consider, and likely approve, = a=20 bill that will essentially affect the constitutional role of checks and = balances, but at least appears to open the process to more people, and=20= keep any one branch from gaining too much power. During a press conference, a young activist named Leslie Adams openly=20= challenges Sherwood to seriously consider the implications of such a=20= bill. Despite their differences, they develop a personal relationship=20= that blooms into a strange bedfellows romance. Following the press conference, one of the major movers behind the bill = invites Sherwood to his office, and offers him a major role in its=20 passage, to be followed by a Senate run and, possibly, a run for the=20= White House. =20 Enter Nathaniel Gorham. Gorham was one of the original signers of the=20= U.S. Constitution. The signers have gathered in the spirit world to for= m=20 a committee to decide on what must be done to keep this bill from=20 passing. Gorham appears to Sherwood in hope that his influence, along=20= with that of his new love interest, would convince him to join the=20 opposition. When nothing seems to be working, Gorham decides that=20 desperate measures must be taken. And now the roller coaster of this book begins. In the twinkling of an = eye, Sherwood is transported, not to the past or the future, but to an=20= "alternative universe" that strangely coexists with ours. He finds=20 himself on a very different American continent, a place where the=20 Constitution was never ratified. As a result, the nation is divided int= o=20 several zones, only one of which allows the kinds of freedoms we enjoy=20= here. The bizarre twist to the story is that all of the people he knew in THIS= =20 universe exist, with the same names, in that OTHER universe. Sherwood's= =20 confusion is often amusing, and always dangerous. He must somehow find = his way through this strange world, a world where credit cards don't wor= k=20 and ordinary people don't call the police. "The Freedom Factor" traces Bryce Sherwood's gradual awakening to the=20= real danger in circumventing the Constitution. Despite some problems=20= with continuity, the book is nicely done and an enjoyable read. Young=20= people will particularly enjoy the vivid action scenes and the frequent,= =20 and sometimes unpredictable, plot twists. And for those who treasure the Constitution, it is a lesson in the value= =20 of patriotism and the importance that even one, although young and=20 idealistic, can make. --=20 Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: [AML] Alice Morrey Bailey (was: Literature in Relief Society) Date: 22 Jan 2001 07:42:50 -0700 Melissa, this is a week late, I know. Did anyone ever tell you about Alice Morrey Bailey? She was a sweet old lady who wrote a novel about space or heaven (I forget the title--something like zillmarillion?), lived in a big old house in central Salt Lake City and wrote poetry for years. A big name in the poetry society, she is now gone. I know, I know. I'm calling her "old lady" when she was probably younger than I am when I first saw her walk away with all the poetry prizes. Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- While we're on the subject: In one of the contest issues, a poem by Alice Morrey Bailey won second runner up. I know this name, but I can't remember from where or why. Either she's someone who publishes in Mormon circles or she's from our old ward in Vancouver, but it's driving me crazy. Can anyone save my sanity? Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 22 Jan 2001 09:36:08 -0700 J. Scott Bronson wrote: >> > Point being, perhaps your friend doesn't have the belief system available > to her that allows even high standing authorities of the church to > practice subterfuge in a church that purports to contain all the truth > necessary for salvation. We've been talking about typical Mormon speech. The above reminds of another typical Mormon trait: judging those who leave or disagree with us as deficient in someway. So certain are we of our religious convictions that surely (we reason), someone choosing to leave the Church must have some unrepentant sin, must have never had a "real" testimony, is seeking to justify their actions. I suggest that, as Mormon writers, need to re-assess that attitude. Those of us who wish to speak more powerfully to the outside world have to work hard at fighting against this tendancy. For, if we truly believe it, won't that belief slip past our best efforts to hide it? We must be able to accept the idea that other, clear-thinking people just may disagree on the principles we hold dear. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: [AML] Dian Saderup (Query) Date: 22 Jan 2001 11:38:14 -0600 Listmembers, Does anyone out there happen to know whatever became of Dian Saderup? About twenty years ago she published some very compelling short fiction, poetry and essays in Sunstone, Dialogue, Century II, etc . . . I was in a class with her at BYU in 1982 - haven't really seen her work in print since then. Perhaps she's publishing under a married name? Thanks for your help, Reed Russell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: Re: [AML] Extreme Voices Date: 22 Jan 2001 12:43:41 -0700 In one thread, Thom Duncan wrote: --- I'm more than delighted to share my radical ideas with anyone in a calm, well-modulated voice. But when the hearer gets to make the rules, defining what is shrill and what is not, then what can you do but scream? There ARE some people who just don't want to hear anything contrary to their own pre-conceived ideas and will choose to label anything that differs from that as contention. --- In another thread, a different Thom Duncan: --- The above reminds of another typical Mormon trait: judging those who leave or disagree with us as deficient in someway....We must be able to accept the idea that other, clear-thinking people just may disagree on the principles we hold dear. --- Admittedly, I was already pretty confused. But now I'm dizzy. How to reliably discern between "clear-thinking people" and those who "don't want to hear anything". Oh, well. I don't suppose we'd agree on that either. --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Extreme Voices Date: 22 Jan 2001 13:47:12 -0700 On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:20:17 -0700, Thom Duncan wrote: >> I still believe that good, righteous, reasonable people can come >> to equally valid but different opinions on pretty much anything >> without there being a need for one of them to be wrong. > >Granted. But what do you do when you're trying to communicate with bad, >unrighteousness, or unreasonable people? Recognize that communication is impossible and go somewhere else. Bad, unrighteous or unreasonable people aren't going to get anything out of = you yelling no matter how high the volume. Once a conversation degenerates = to this level, communication is over and all you can hope for is to clearly state your position for the benefit of outside observers. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:23:46 -0700 It's a small thing, but reading some of the posts reminded me of a non-LDS wedding my brother and his family attended. The minister performing the ceremony frequently said, "Amen" throughout, and my little nephew (I think about three at the time) kept calling out "Amen" every time he heard it. Afterward, another LDS person approached my brother and said, "Are you LDS, too? I figured you had to be after listening to your son." Most religions don't have the congregation repeat "amen" after a prayer, so I guess that's a trait that makes us stick out a bit. Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: [AML] Judgement (was: Dealing with Mormon History) Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:00:58 -0700 On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:36:08 -0700, Thom Duncan wrote: >The above reminds of=20 >another typical Mormon trait: judging those who leave or disagree with=20 >us as deficient in someway. So certain are we of our religious=20 >convictions that surely (we reason), someone choosing to leave the=20 >Church must have some unrepentant sin, must have never had a "real"=20 >testimony, is seeking to justify their actions. I suggest that, as=20 >Mormon writers, need to re-assess that attitude. What other options are there if you believe that the Church is True? I believe that the church is true, so someone leaving it is leaving The = True Church. Sin, denial, or soft foundation--what other option is there? = The only other option is that the church isn't true--not an idea I am willing= to entertain just because someone else left it. I'd be happy to re-asses my attitudes, but I need to know what other options you feel are there that don't violate the assumption that the Church is True. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Alice Morrey Bailey Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:42:40 -0700 On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:42:50 -0700, Brown wrote: >Melissa, this is a week late, I know. Did anyone ever tell you about = Alice >Morrey Bailey? She was a sweet old lady who wrote a novel about space or >heaven (I forget the title--something like zillmarillion?) That's it. She wrote _Stellarian_. I knew that name was familiar! = Thanks, Marilyn! Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:59:24 -0700 I think it'd be >interesting to see a play or read a piece of fiction >that has several scenes where a character goes through >various outward personae. Does he or she speak in the >same way when speaking with non-Mormons versus when at >church versus when conversing with Mormon friends >versus when speaking to his/her family in the home? Well, not too long ago I was speaking to my bishop in his office and explaining my outrage at some sort of injustice. I realized that a word had escaped my mouth that was, shall we say, inappropriate in a bishop's office. (No, not THAT word--I would NEVER use that word.) Anyway, I clapped a hand across my mouth and felt my face grow hot. He just laughed. Clearly, he understood that we have different speaking styles for different audiences. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Year in Review, Pt. 3 (Drama, Essays) Date: 23 Jan 2001 08:24:55 +0900 Today the Largely Ignorant Reviewer looks at drama and essays. Drama: Unlike the novels and short stories, of which I have read a good number, I saw only one Mormon play the entire year, since I don't live in Utah. Also, what with Sunstone publishing only one issue all year, there were very few plays appearing in print. The only exceptions were Eric Samuelsen's Bar and Kell, a one-act from his Three Women trilogy, which appeared in the Spring Irreantum, and undergraduate Nicole Christensen's play which appeared in Inscape (the BYU undergrad literary journal). So this review is based almost solely on what has been reported on AML-list, and Eric Snider's reviews in the Provo Herald. Eric Samuelsen and Tim Slover continue to be the leaders in the field. Slover didn't have any new plays this year, but he will have a new play produced at BYU next month, Hancock County, about the trial of the assassins of Joseph and Hyrum. (Oh, wait, I checked the BYU schedule, and Hancock County isn=81ft there. Was I wrong? Or was it cancelled for some reason? Susan Howe's Burdens of the Earth is going to be produced, did BYU decide to replace one Joseph Smith play with another?) Several of Slover's earlier plays were restaged, however. God's Fishermen (cowritten with James Arrington) was done somewhere earlier in the year, I forget where. March Tale, about Shakespeare, was produced by ARTE at the Castle Theatre in Provo (directed by Scott Bronson and featuring Thom Duncan—that was the one play I saw), and Joyful Noise (about Handel) played Off-Broadway in February with the Lamb's Theater, as well as a production by the Pioneer Theatre Company in Salt Lake in December. Slover obviously has a good thing going with plays based on historical figures. Eric Samuelsen had two plays produced at BYU this year. First, in January, a small production called "Three Women", which was made up of three one acts, "Bar and Kell", "Community Standard", and "Judgment". Soon thereafter came a main stage production, "A Love Affair With Electrons", about the life of Philo Farnsworth, with scenes done in parody of today's TV shows. It sounded pretty fun. Eric also turned the 1999 play, "The Way We're Wired," into the novel Singled Out. Margaret Blair Young and Darius Gray, with the Genesis Group, turned a portion of their "Standing on the Promises" series into a play, "I Am Jane", about the pioneer black sister Jane Manning James, and featuring lots of 19th century spirituals. It was performed at the Genesis Group's meetinghouse, then the Browns' Villa Theatre, and a few other places after that. BYU also produced a main stage production of undergraduate Nicole Prado's "Sy's Girl". Eric Snider gave it a fair to poor review, but Eric Samuelsen came strongly to Prado's defense. I've heard good reviews from a couple of people who saw it. Other productions at BYU included Char Nelson, Denise Cutliff, and Kirsten Haskell's The Blacker the Berry, an adaptation of Wallace Therman's Harlem Renaissance novel. It was a joint production of the College of Humanities, Theater department, and the Utah Humanities Council. The play was also performed a couple of times in Salt Lake City, including at a Baptist church. That certainly sounds interesting. Are the three authors BYU students? Did anyone see the production? Also undergraduate Nicole Christensen's Spaces between Us: The Dialogues of Il and Elle, which was produced through the BYU Mask Club (student-run productions), appeared in Inscape. And, of course, the year ended with James Arrington's= =20 "Farley Family Christmas". Arrington is the head of the Theater department at UVSC now, so maybe we'll see more Mormon plays produced there. This year Karla Huntsman and the Deseret Dance Theatre performed her Woman in the Wind: The Drusilla Hendricks Story there. Huntsman is a BYU theater adjunct faculty, and a descendent of Hendricks. Hendricks' husband was shot and paralyzed at the Battle of Crooked River. The performance included dramatic vignettes, music, and choreographed movement. Also at UVSC was something called the First Annual 10 Minute Play Festival, which included Scott Bronson's one- act On the Romance of a Dying Child. Speaking of Bronson, the Provo Theatre Company held a reading of his Stones: Two Plays About Sacrifice. The two one-acts were "Alters," about Isaac and Abraham, which appeared in Sunstone a couple of years ago, and "Tombs", a new play of a conversation between Jesus and Mary as she prepares His tomb. Another reading of note was Paul Cracroft's "Sam's=20 Place", about Sam Weller. Utah Valley is the center of the Mormon theater world, with BYU at the epicenter. But perhaps the theater most active in producing recent Mormon plays was the Little London Dinner Theater in Pleasant Grove, which opened in 1999. In 1999 a musical adaptation of "Charlie's Monument" by Marvin Payne, Susan Evans McCloud, and Newell Daley was produced there. Plays by Mormon authors produced there in 2000 included former BYU student Josh Brady's comedy "Great Gardens!" (which first appeared at BYU in 1998), James Arrington's "The Mylaynniul Farley Dinner Party" in January (which basically was his Christmas play, with a few changes), Steven Kapp Perry's "Polly: A One-Woman Musical" (which first appeared in 1992), Perry and Payne's new marriage comedy "Wedlocked" (which first appeared at BYU in=20 1999, and also appeared at SCERA in 2000), and Marvin Payne's (new, I assume?) "A Little London Christmas", which featured lots of beautiful Christmas songs with a brief dramatic framework. Wow, who is doing the programming at Little London? Has it been getting good audiences? Other new plays appearing in Utah Valley theaters included Bill Brown's 50s play "Riot at Flo's Cafe" at the Villa, and youngster Erica Glenn's "Dancing Shoes," an adaptation of a novel, at the Valley Center Playhouse. Outside of Happy Valley, in Salt Lake the only Mormon play of note that I know of (besides Joyful Noise) was Julie Jensen's Two-Headed, about 19th century rural Utah, polygamy, and Mountain Meadows, produced by SLAC. It appeared off-Broadway in May. Oh, there was also that Christmas pageant musical at the new Assembly Hall. Marianne Hales Harding's one-act Hold Me appeared in a New York drama festival, and a new play, Next Rest Stop 78 Miles, was read at the Utah Shakespeare Festival. Harding was the playwright-in-residence at the festival this year. Finally, Neil LaBute's Bash : Latterday Plays, which appeared Off-Broadway and in London in 1999, was shown on the Showtime cable network in August. Perhaps for the first time there is a Utah theater critic who consistently reviews plays both in Salt Lake and Utah counties (as well as Tuhancan and Cedar City), including the "Mormon" plays. That is Eric Snider of the Provo Herald. And a really great thing about Eric is that he keeps all of his reviews in an archive on his web site, so one can go back and check past reviews. It made writing this column much easier, thanks Eric. Anyway, he reviewed thirteen of the productions I mentioned above, or a little more=20 than half of them. Of the plays he reviewed, two Little London Dinner Theater productions received A- grades, Brady's "Great Gardens!" and Perry's=20 "Polly". Close behind (B+), in Eric's estimation, came Samuelsen's "A Love= =20 Affair with Electrons" (BYU), Arrington's "Farley Family Xmas" (BYU), and Slover's "March Tale" (Castle Theatre). Next (B) came Jensen's "Two Headed" (SLAC) and Perry and Payne's "Wedlocked" (SCERA). Here are all the Mormon plays he reviewed: "Farley Family Xmas" (2000)/BYU (12/9/00) B+ "Great Gardens!"/Little London Dinner Theater (5/19/00) A- "Joyful Noise"/Pioneer Theatre Company (12/1/00) B- "A Little London Christmas"/Little London Dinner Theater (12/15/00) B- "A Love Affair with Electrons"/BYU (3/12/00) B+ "March Tale"/Castle Theatre (9/3/00) B+ "The Mylaynniul Farley Dinner Party"/Little London Dinner Theatre (1/14/00)= =20 B- "Polly: A One-Woman Musical"/Little London Dinner Theater (3/3/00) A- "Riot at Flo's Cafe"/Villa Playhouse Theatre (Little Brown Theatre)=20 (10/20/00) B- "Sy's Girl"/BYU (10/1/00) C- "Two-Headed"/Salt Lake Acting Company (2/11/00) B "Wedlocked"/Little London Dinner Theater (4/21/00) B- "Wedlocked"/SCERA Showhouse (1/26/00) B Ah, a good year in review should have a handicap for who will win the yearly awards, in this case the AML drama award. I=81fm not sure which are= eligible, but I assume Great Gardens! and Wedlocked, which had small productions at=20 BYU earlier, but had their first full stagings in 2000, would be. Either of= =20 those are possibilities. Samuelsen and Slover have dominated the category in the last few years, so I'd say Samuelsen's A Love Affair with Electrons has an excellent chance, but Jensen's Two-Headed, with productions both in Salt=20 Lake and New York, may be the odds on favorite. "I am Jane" or one of Harding Hales' plays also probably have outside shots. Major films written and/or directed by Mormons in 2000. With Mormon themes: Richard Dutcher's God's Army Kieth Merrill's The Testaments: Of One Fold and One Shepherd. Without Mormon themes: Neil LaBute's Nurse Betty. Screenwriter David Howard's Galaxy Quest. Don Bluth's Titan A. E. Essays: Doctrinal books perhaps should fall into this category, but there are a lot of them, and I haven't tried to keep track, so sorry. There were two collections of published essays that I know of: Plummer, Tom. Second Wind : Variations on a Theme of Growing Older. Shadow Mountain, October 2000. Williams, Terry Tempast. Leap. Pantheon, 2000. This is the third year in a row Plummer has published a collection of=20 essays, and his 1998 collection won the AML essay prize, so he must be doing something right. I haven=81ft read any of them. I did receive Williams' (or Tempast-Williams?) Leap for Christmas, and it is very sumptuous. As reviewers have pointed out, Williams uses the 15th Century Flemish painter Hieronymus Bosch's triptych "The Garden of Delights" as a jumping-off point. I liked Refuge, Williams' most well-known work. Well, not liked, I was=20 immpressed and moved, but it was painful to read. The things she has=20 published since then, especially Desert Quartet, haven't done much for me. I am easily put off by new agey writing, and she talked like that much too much for my= taste. That is still there in Leap, but it is either more muted or she has more interesting things to say with it this time, because I fell very easily into her languorous rhythms (I haven't finished it yet, though). Of course a large number of personal essays have appeared in Dialogue, Sunstone, Irreantum, and The Ensign over the course of the year. My final installment will cover web magazines. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Judgement (was: Dealing with Mormon History) Date: 22 Jan 2001 16:52:04 -0700 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:36:08 -0700, Thom Duncan wrote: > > >> The above reminds of >> another typical Mormon trait: judging those who leave or disagree with >> us as deficient in someway. So certain are we of our religious >> convictions that surely (we reason), someone choosing to leave the >> Church must have some unrepentant sin, must have never had a "real" >> testimony, is seeking to justify their actions. I suggest that, as >> Mormon writers, need to re-assess that attitude. > > > What other options are there if you believe that the Church is True? I > believe that the church is true, so someone leaving it is leaving The True > Church. Sin, denial, or soft foundation--what other option is there? The opinion that they might actually no longer believe the teachings. You don't believe the teachings of the Episcopal Church. Episcopalians might think you are ignorant, a sinner, but as far as you're concerned, you consider yourself possessing greater light and knowledge. I'm suggesting that certain -- in fact, I personally know some -- people have left the Church because they don't believe its doctrine. They have committed no great sin, they don't hate the prophet ... they just don't believe. Rather than judge their reasons, I feel compelled to accept them as valid from their POV. Failing that, I would find myself in the uncomfortable position of having to second guess them. > I'd be happy to re-asses my > attitudes, but I need to know what other options you feel are there that > don't violate the assumption that the Church is True. > One could maintain the idea that other's churches are as true to them as ours is to us. I've been a Stake Missionary about four times in my life, not to mention my full-time mission. Part of my job as a SM was to try an activate inactives. I found that if I approached that job with the pre-conceived idea that the only reason they were inactive was because someone had obviously hurt their feelings, I failed. If, otoh, I approached them as an equal, as someone who didn't disparage their heterodox beliefs, I was more successful in re-activating them. I suggest that, as writers, we may have better success speaking to non-Mormons if we try to put ourselves in their shoes more often then we typically do. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Dian Saderup (Query) Date: 22 Jan 2001 19:46:46 -0700 Reed Russell wrote: >Does anyone out there happen to know whatever became of Dian Saderup? >About twenty years ago she published some very compelling short fiction, >poetry and essays in Sunstone, Dialogue, Century II, etc . . . >I was in a class with her at BYU in 1982 - haven't really seen her work in >print since then. Perhaps she's publishing under a married name? Last I heard (1997), Dian Saderup Monson was a doctoral candidate in American literature at Brandies University and instructor of Honors at BYU. Some of her recent publications: "Drawn." _Sunstone_ 14 (August 1990): 36. "Earl." _New Era_ [19] (October 1989): 48-50. "For Brother de Mik. " _Dialogue_ 20 (summer 1987): 42-43. "The Grace of the Court." _Dialogue_ 17 (spring 1984): 88-97. "Obviously Arthur." _Dialogue_ 22 (fall 1989): 102-16. "One of the Martin Company." _BYU Studies_ 20 (summer 1980): 348-49. Reprinted in _Coming to Zion_, ed. James B. Allen and John W. Welch, 140-41. Provo, Utah: BYU Studies, 1997. "Pilgrims in Time." _Dialogue_ 22 (spring 1989): 99-105. "Turning." _Dialogue_ 20 (spring 1987): 156-64. Saderup, Dian, and William Cottam. "Living Histories: Selected Biographies from the Manhattan First Ward." _Dialogue_ 25 (winter 1992): 58-79. [Mary Guluzian, Walter David Clinton Johnson, and Clara Solyom Orsi] Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Re: Mormon Dialogue Date: 02 Jan 2001 12:10:05 -0700 Michael, your point is well made, but I think there is a difference in speaking with a regional accent and just pronouncing words incorrectly. Maybe I am more sensitive because my daughter does broadcasting and she would be out of a job if she spoke with a Utah accent. I hate to hear anyone say (I)talian, (I)ran and (I)raq. Nan McCulloch -----Original Message----- Why is one dialect more "terrible" than another? The only reason your theater English is considered proper is because it happened to be the dialect of English the king spoke at the time society decided to choose a "superior" dialect. Except that even that dialect has been Americanized considerably since then. What you think of as proper English would sound terrible to someone speaking the "King's English." -- D. Michael Martindale - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: [AML] Brigham Young Opera (Query) Date: 02 Jan 2001 13:08:57 -0700 In 1961 I lived in Long Beach, California. I saw an opera on T.V. about Brigham Young. It was wonderful. It was beautifully done--sensitive, inoffensive, attractive actors, lovely music. The subject of polygamy was touched on. I remember a new wife looking at one of the older wives. I have been trying to find information on this opera for years, but have been unsuccessful. Are there any old timers out there that can help me? Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 02 Jan 2001 13:09:08 -0700 At one time I made a list of interesting Mormon prayer language. I don't know what became of it. I have heard people say that they _get down on their hands and knees_ to pray. I hear old timers say _what Thou would'st have us 'to do'_ instead of just 'do.' I hear many 'repetitious redundancies' such as 'we ask and pray.' I would love to compile another list, so could you help me out? Nan McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 22 Jan 2001 23:50:52 -0600 >What Really Happened is a play about the power of rationalization. A nice >young couple, Cath and Rich, begin by telling you that they are going to >tell you all about what really happened, that it really wasn't so bad, and >that it really wasn't their fault anyway, so you shouldn't blame >them. Over the course of the play, you learn what they did, and realize >that it was horrifying. I don't want to give too much away. >[snip] >Anyway, you're all invited to come. There's very little bad language (the >b-word, as in female dog, gets used a little) but it's very disturbing, >even to me[.] Eric, Two questions: 1) Can I read it? I'm 2000 miles from BYU. 2) The basic idea sounds like the premise behind LaBute's "Bash," which I've read about on this List. Are the two plays anything alike? And a comment: I've become a major fan of "Inside the Actors' Studio" on the Bravo Channel. Sunday they aired the interview with Spike Lee. At the end of the show the MFA students get to ask questions, and a woman playwright stood and asked Mr. Lee how he could go all the hard places his characters take him with so much bravado, saying she admired that, but that in her own writing she often became afraid when this happened to her. When her writing started going places she wasn't sure she wanted to go. His response was basically that you can't be afraid. If this is your chosen profession, you can't be afraid, because if you don't go where it's taking you, your writing won't have any heart. I really liked his answer. Food for thought, considering your apparent feelings about this play, without having read it/seen it for myself. How does this relate? Linda =========== Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Lewis Playwriting Contest Judging Date: 22 Jan 2001 23:38:43 -0600 >Okay, I owe Linda a huge public apology for this one, and I will follow up >and try to find out why you didn't get your letter about this. The >department secretary who actually runs the contest left about the time we >finished up this year's contest, and that's the best explanation I can >think of. Linda's own history with the contest is a bizarre one anyway--I >can't think of anyone who's had worse luck with not getting informed and stuff. Thank you! I figured, if I stood around clearing my throat long enough, somebody might speak up. Grin. Glad to know the details, and nope, I never did get my letter. I agree, my contest history is decidedly bizarre. For the rest of you: My (and apparently, only my) entries and return letters have been lost, misplaced, misfiled, re-entered... you name it. But I still like entering anyway. On the off-chance some year I might actually win! >Linda's play, which I liked better than the mountain climber/artist play, >was in the finals, but was edged out in votes cast by the other two >finalist judges. Cool, it sounds like I'm getting closer, anyway. You really liked it better, or are you just saying that to be nice? (BYU's more than welcome to consider producing it of course...) Frankly, I wasn't sure it _could_ win, since "Shandralee's Wedding" is more of a comedy, and my drama teacher in high school insisted that comedy _never_ wins dramatic contests. Truth? I'm too busy writing my sequel to enter again this year, but I have another (decidedly bizarre) play idea sitting on a back burner for the 2002 Contest. >For all of you out there who would like to be playwrights and who happen >to be female, I am rather proud of the Lewis Playwriting Contest for >Women, which I have been part of now for about four years. I second this motion--Eric first encouraged me to enter a few years ago, although I had never tried writing drama. He said, "go for it." And as Scott Bronson attests, the vast majority of the entries are so unreadable (really? musicals about public toilets? Oy!), that it stands to reason if you can write at all, come up with some characters and a plot and lines, you have a good shot at making the final judging cut. (Have the odds or quality of entries changed any, Eric, with the introduction of the entry fee?) I love theater but my current lifestyle (read: FIVE LITTLE KIDS) doesn't allow me much involvement with it. Writing a play, for me, is a real adrenaline rush, more so than anything else. Having a contest to enter gives me a reason to write it. Even if my stuff always gets lost, and to date has never been produced and may never see the stage. :-) I enter every other year or so, and enjoy the "rush" in the process. I encourage any others of you women writers out there to try this one. What have you got to lose? >Anyway, if any of you have a play in you, write it, send it in. And a >million jillion apologies to Linda. We'll do better by you next time, I >promise. > >Eric Samuelsen All million jillion accepted, Eric! And none really needed. I'm just happy to know What Really Happened. Maybe I ought to send my next entry in on neon-yellow paper or something. You think? Or you could just tattoo "Check on Linda's Lewis submission!" on your forehead. :-P (Just so long as I NEVER win because somebody feels sorry for me. Which there's no danger of, I'm sure.) Thanks again! I like knowing I came close. That's fun. Maybe one of these days you could introduce a 2nd & 3rd place or Honorable Mention category in the judging. Has that ever been thought of? Linda =========== Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 22 Jan 2001 23:39:10 -0700 Thom Duncan wrote: > Those of us who wish to speak more powerfully to the outside world have > to work hard at fighting against this tendancy. For, if we truly > believe it, won't that belief slip past our best efforts to hide it? If we truly believe it, why shouldn't it slip past? That's what an author's supposed to do: present the world as he sees it. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] ADAMS, "Elsa at the Pool" Published Online Date: 23 Jan 2001 00:51:08 -0600 Hi all, My short story, "Elsa at the Pool," has been reprinted online in _Friction_ magazine. (I believe it will also appear in their upcoming print version.) It first appeared in _Lynx Eye_ last year, and I thought some of you might want to take a look at it. http://www.frictionmag.com/ Click on the link on the left frame for Fiction and it'll come up. It's not exactly, well , a Mormon story, except that I wrote it and claim it. Also the _Friction_ editors played with it some and I don't particularly like their edits. For example, my first words were "A man sat..." and they changed it to "He sat..." Stuff like that. (If you'd like to see the original, I can e-mail it to you privately.) I'm not sure I should complain to them, except that I honestly don't believe they improved it. Rather the opposite. Oh well... _Lynx Eye_ got it right the first time. This story was my first short fiction sale. It brings up a good discussion for the List, though. What do you do with editors who mess up, rather than improve, your writing? In your opinion? Who's right, and how can you tell, as the biased author? Linda ======== Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 22 Jan 2001 23:26:27 -0700 >>> ersamuel@byugate.byu.edu 01/18/01 08:50AM >>> > >What Really Happened is a play about the power of rationalization. =20 >A nice young couple, Cath and Rich, begin by telling you that they=20 >are going to tell you all about what really happened, that it really=20 >wasn't so bad, and that it really wasn't their fault anyway, so you=20 >shouldn't blame them. Over the course of the play, you learn what=20 >they did, and realize that it was horrifying. I don't want to give = too=20 >much away. =20 I saw the Saturday night performance of _What Really Happened_ at=20 the Nelke Theatre, BYU. Is it safe at this point to say that what Cath=20 and Rich did was to "extract" Rich in a very cruel and calculating way=20 from a relationship with his former girlfriend, Jackie? (There, I've = done=20 it.) It seems obvious to me to compare this play with Neil LaBute's _In the=20 Company of Men_, so obvious that I wonder if Eric was conscious of=20 the similarities between the characters in the two works while writing=20 his play. LaBute's Chad and Howard are perhaps a bit more evil than=20 Cath and Rich, because Chad and Howard play their cruel trick on=20 Christine just for kicks. Cath and Rich have the highest motivation=20 (so they tell themselves): true love. Of the four antagonists, only=20 Howard's conscience is clearly troubled. Of the two victims, LaBute's Christine is more innocent than Samuelsen's=20= Jackie. Offhand, I can't think of anyone I've known personally who are as=20 cruel as Chad, Howard, Cath and Rich. It's hard to identify with=20 people that evil. Rationalization is a universal activity, however=20 (except for the few of us who are perfect, and those who are in=20 touch and comfortable with their evil side), so nearly everyone=20 can see a bit of themselves in Cath and Rich. MBA (Morgan B. Adair) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 23 Jan 2001 11:04:01 -0700 Just a quick note to say I took advantage of Eric's "under the radar" announcement of this play, and I was glad I did. The dialogue was terrific, the story compelling, and the performances quite good, especially the two principle roles. I was pretty neutral about the "interludes" with the characters leaving the straight narrative and doing bizarre, offbeat things that revealed their inner emotional states. Also, I wasn't quite sold on Jackie making her terrible decision. Maybe more time or dialogue or something needed to be spent on that. I found Jackie's motives and mindset the least clear and convincing of any of the characters. Thanks for a great night of FREE theater. Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 23 Jan 2001 10:13:50 -0700 I'll take Eric's invitation. I remember in third or fourth grade, the teacher had an area of the = classroom where we could go after we finished our normal assignment. One = day I picked up a little device with two wheels you spun to randomly = generate a creative writing topic. I spun the wheels, and I came up with, = "Write a story about what it's like to be a hamburger." I went back to my desk and pulled out a piece of paper and wrote my first = sentence: "Sometimes your pickles slide out." And then I hit my first = writer's block. I stared at the paper awhile longer, and then I put it = away with new respect for the people who could come up with imaginative = stories. Actually, as a kid what I mostly did was DRAW elaborate scenarios rather = than write them. I had only average drawing skills, but I remember getting = quite caught up in the little worlds and scenarios I created. Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. >>> "Eric R. Samuelsen" 01/19 4:23 PM >>> How about this for a thread: y'all remember your first attempts to Be A = Writer? Have you re-read old stuff and forgotten having written it? It's = fun, isn't it? I love reading early Samuelsen; he was a pretentious bore = of a writer, but his heart was in the write place.=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paynecabin@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Year in Review, Pt. 3 (Drama, Essays) Date: 23 Jan 2001 13:34:53 EST Andrew asked, << Wow, who is doing the programming at Little London? Has it been getting good audiences? >> During the year in question, I was the artistic director of the Little London Dinner Theatre. That's the simple explanation why nearly all of the plays were written either by me or my buddies. Turnouts have been astoundingly good. At the end of the year, I retired from that exalted position. First play of the new season: Joseph And The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. Marvin Payne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ethan Skarstedt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 23 Jan 2001 11:45:42 -0800 Smarmy. > > I also hear a Mormon accent that comes when people are trying to be extra nice, like when making a request or offering veiled criticism. It's kind of a sing-songy accent that I can't think of a better way to describe. > > Chris Bigelow > > -------- > For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT 84663. > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 23 Jan 2001 11:44:54 -0700 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > Just a quick note to say I took advantage of Eric's "under the radar" > announcement of this play, and I was glad I did. I saw you there, sitting down a couple of rows and to the left of me, Scott and Lynne Bronson. > The dialogue was > terrific, the story compelling, and the performances quite good, > especially the two principle roles. > > I was pretty neutral about the "interludes" with the characters > leaving the straight narrative and doing bizarre, offbeat things that > revealed their inner emotional states. Also, I wasn't quite sold on > Jackie making her terrible decision. Maybe more time or dialogue or > something needed to be spent on that. I found Jackie's motives and > mindset the least clear and convincing of any of the characters. Here's my take on Jackie's motives. They weren't clear because they were underdeveloped, but because they were meant to be mysterious. Remember we never heard the notes she wrote to (I forget his name). I think that was because it was left up to us to know if she was really a stalker or just a woman scourned. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 23 Jan 2001 12:49:09 -0700 True story: This morning I went to the district spelling bee (where the winners of the school bees compete on their way to the state bee--my son came in fourth, btw). The pronouncer, in explaining the rules before the bee began, said that he would pronounce some of the words "better" than the dictionary pronunciation because dictionaries use a lot of schwas to account for regional diffferences in pronunciation, but *here in Utah we use purer vowel sounds than in other parts of the country*!!! This is not an exact quote but accurately represents what he said, I believe. However, there were only two words he pronounced differently that I would have expected. Debbie Wager (who still wishes from time to time that the job offer that brought her to Utah had been somewhere else). - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 23 Jan 2001 13:27:31 -0700 HOORAY! I want the story about the pickles sliding out! That is SO GOOD, Chris, and demonstrates your great talents. Please finish the story! Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 10:13 AM I'll take Eric's invitation. I remember in third or fourth grade, the teacher had an area of the classroom where we could go after we finished our normal assignment. One day I picked up a little device with two wheels you spun to randomly generate a creative writing topic. I spun the wheels, and I came up with, "Write a story about what it's like to be a hamburger." I went back to my desk and pulled out a piece of paper and wrote my first sentence: "Sometimes your pickles slide out." And then I hit my first writer's block. I stared at the paper awhile longer, and then I put it away with new respect for the people who could come up with imaginative stories. Actually, as a kid what I mostly did was DRAW elaborate scenarios rather than write them. I had only average drawing skills, but I remember getting quite caught up in the little worlds and scenarios I created. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Judgement (was: Dealing with Mormon History) Date: 23 Jan 2001 12:56:31 -0700 On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:52:04 -0700, Thom Duncan wrote: >> I'd be happy to re-asses my >> attitudes, but I need to know what other options you feel are there = that >> don't violate the assumption that the Church is True. >>=20 >One could maintain the idea that other's churches are as true to them as= =20 >ours is to us. I can't go there. I can accept that they might perceive that their = church is true on the same level that I perceive my church to be true. But that doesn't actually make their church true. And I am not able to make the = leap that just because they perceive their church to be true that it therefore *is* true, if only for them. How can a church be true to some people and not true to others? Why should I be concerned with spreading the gospel = if I run the risk of bringing people away from their True church? Our = Church directly contradicts ecumenical reconciliation (which is why we aren't on many ecumenical councils--we get kicked off when we refuse to validate = other churches). I can treat them with respect. I can accept that they are worthy of love and help and human consideration. But I cannot validate = them in their claim or even allow that they *might* be right. We claim that we are the only True Church on the face of the planet. It = is a central and core doctrine. That doesn't make other churches evil, but = it does mean that someone who settles for a church where they are = comfortable is settling for less than the truth. It is a modern-day heresy to claim that there is such a thing as a = universal Truth. But it is also a core LDS doctrine. We claim that not only is = there a universal Truth, but that we are the universally True Church. We claim that *only* our own baptism is valid. We claim that *only* our = ordinances lead to "heaven". Not even the Catholics claim that any more. But we = still do. Will only Mormons enter heaven? Of course not. Jesus wasn't a "Mormon", technically. But only those who willingly and sincerely = partake of the ordinances we administer can enter heaven. Period. We harbor the one true priesthood of God. Only our ordinances penetrate eternity. All other churches might be nice and help people be good, but they will not = (can not) have any validity in the eternities. So I cannot accept the idea that others' churches are as true to them as ours is to us. To do so violates the assumption that the Church is True. >I've been a Stake Missionary about four times in my life, not to mention= =20 >my full-time mission. Part of my job as a SM was to try an activate=20 >inactives. I found that if I approached that job with the pre-conceived= =20 >idea that the only reason they were inactive was because someone had=20 >obviously hurt their feelings, I failed. If, otoh, I approached them as= =20 >an equal, as someone who didn't disparage their heterodox beliefs, I was= =20 >more successful in re-activating them. That's fine, but that has nothing to do with what you say about accepting their faith as valid as our own. We are taught to treat people as = equals. We are taught to not disparage their beliefs. We are taught to help all = men as we are able. Making assumptions about why someone is inactive is, ultimately, wrong. Helping them make the gospel active in their lives is the whole of the goal. [Jacob Proffitt] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Alice Morrey Bailey Date: 23 Jan 2001 13:53:18 -0700 Giggle giggle! I think I should get a prize for "The Most Murdered Title." Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 2:42 PM On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:42:50 -0700, Brown wrote: >Melissa, this is a week late, I know. Did anyone ever tell you about Alice >Morrey Bailey? She was a sweet old lady who wrote a novel about space or >heaven (I forget the title--something like zillmarillion?) That's it. She wrote _Stellarian_. I knew that name was familiar! Thanks, Marilyn! Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 23 Jan 2001 14:13:22 -0600 At 11:13 AM 1/23/01, you wrote: >How about this for a thread: y'all remember your first attempts to Be A >Writer? Have you re-read old stuff and forgotten having written it? It's >fun, isn't it? I love reading early Samuelsen; he was a pretentious bore >of a writer, but his heart was in the write place. Great thread. I can't go back quite so far as Chris, but I have found some drafts of stuff I wrote in high school. Dreadful, dreadful stuff. There's a sci-fi novella I titled "The Planet," a (supposedly scary) horror story I called "The Trees, and scads of teen-angst very bad poetry I can't even stand to read. The sci-fi story made my dad wrinkle up his nose with distaste when a bad guy got kicked in the groin, I remember that much. (I think that was because his 16-yr old daughter had written it; he loves SF, action-adventure, and westerns.) The last sentence of the horror story, which is supposed to scare the socks off the reader, is: "She was all alone with the trees." (read this with your best creepy ghost story voice, that might help.) Oh boy. The poetry I won't even go into. I think I'm glad that back then I didn't know it was so awful. I may have given up. (At least, I'd like to _think_ I've improved since then.) Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 23 Jan 2001 15:49:13 -0700 Morgan asked:=20 >It seems obvious to me to compare this play with Neil LaBute's >_In = the=20 >Company of Men_, so obvious that I wonder if Eric was >conscious of=20 the similarities between the characters in the two works while >writing=20 >his play.=20 This is a very interesting question. I am, of course, very familiar with = Neil's work, and I have seen In the Company of Men, both the play and = film. In all honesty, ITCOM didn't consciously occur to me while I wrote = What Really Happened. But the parallels Morgan points out are very = interesting. Perhaps there was a subconscious influence of some kind. =20 >LaBute's Chad and Howard are perhaps a bit more evil >than=20 >Cath and Rich, because Chad and Howard play their cruel trick >on=20 >Christine just for kicks. Cath and Rich have the highest >motivation=20 >(so they tell themselves): true love. Of the four antagonists, only=20 >Howard's conscience is clearly troubled. I think Rich is pretty troubled too, though not as troubled as Howard is. = But neither Howard or Chad justify their own actions. The entire point of = WRH is the frantic attempts by Rich and Cath to make us understand how it = wasn't really their fault. =20 >Offhand, I can't think of anyone I've known personally who are >as=20 >cruel as Chad, Howard, Cath and Rich. It's hard to identify with=20 >people that evil. Rationalization is a universal activity, however=20 >(except for the few of us who are perfect, and those who are in=20 >touch and comfortable with their evil side), so nearly everyone=20 >can see a bit of themselves in Cath and Rich. I haven't met anyone that rotten either, except in history books. There, = we meet loads of them, right? But personally, no. Well, there was that = guy in eighth grade. . . . The thing is, I wanted to show Rich and Cath as people who make a series = of choices, each of which leads to the next choice, and each of which is = easily rationalized. Chad says to Howard, in ITCOM, 'let's hurt someone.' = That's upfront, from the beginning; he's going to find someone and hurt = them. While Rich and Cath both say, 'we never meant to hurt anyone, we = wouldn't hurt a fly.' Turns out, of course, that what they do is even = rottener than what Chad and Howard do. But from the outset, they're just = a couple of kids in love. =20 So the character arc for Rich isn't 'I want to do something rotten.' It's = 'I'm here with a girlfriend I'm tired of, and here's someone new. Okay, = I'll dump the old girlfriend, and be with a new one. Oops, the old = girlfriend doesn't want to give me up. Well, tough. Oops, she's = pregnant. Now what do I do?' And it proceeds downhill from there. They're not the same play. Was I influenced by Neil? Interesting = thought. I didn't think so at the time, but the question of influences is = an interesting and complex one, n'est pas? Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 23 Jan 2001 15:57:47 -0700 Okay, I had a student in my office today, and she wants to write a play = about her family. Her father, it turns out, was once a bishop. His wife = became ill, and he hired a housekeeper. Gossip spread throughout the ward = about the relationship between the bishop and the housekeeper. None of it = true, BTW. The Stake President investigated, held a court. Released the = father as bishop, but took no further action. The gossip continued = (largely spread by my student's grandmother, it turns out). A court was = held. Her father was cleared. Gossip continued. A couple years later, = he was excommunicated. And the gossip wasn't true--it wasn't ever true. = Or so says my student, and her story rings true. It's a terrific story, and will make a wonderful play, I predict. But = then my student said to me, "I wonder if I should write this play. It = might make the Church look bad." That's a very tough issue, isn't it? Part of me thinks she should write = it. Part of me says 'so what? Ecclesiastical abuse happens. D&C 121, = tells us, in fact, that we should expect ecclesiastical abuse, that it's = anticipated.' I think it's could become a wonderful cautionary tale, and = also a play that's very important for a young woman struggling with her = own issues. =20 But can I lightly pass over her concerns? I don't think so. The part of me that says she should write it won, and that's what I = encouraged her to do. I really do think it's healthier for us to tell the = truth, and admit that these sorts of abuses do happen from time to time. = But I don't want to pretend that this is an easy, cut and dried issue. It = isn't. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Year in Review, pt. 2 Date: 23 Jan 2001 18:37:40 -0700 One correction: >Dalton-Woodbury, Kathleen. "The Janitor=92s Closet." Marion Zimmer=20 >Bradley=92s Fantasy Magazine. Spring 2000. This was actually written by a Katherine Woodbury, not our Kathleen. Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Valerie Holladay Subject: [AML] Editing Changes (was: ADAMS, "Elsa at the Pool" Published Online) Date: 23 Jan 2001 17:57:46 -0800 (PST) --- Linda Adams wrote: > What do you do with > editors who mess up, rather than improve, your > writing? In your opinion? > Who's right, and how can you tell, as the biased > author? As an editor and a writer, I've been on both sides. Not too long ago, *Dialogue* republished an essay that was originally a presentation at an AML conference. When I saw the edited version, it wasn't greatly changed, but there were some changes that didn't work for me and didn't say what I had wanted them to say. But what those changes communicated to me, because of my experience as an editor making similar kinds of changes and not always succeeding, was that my original words and phrasing hadn't "worked" for the editor, who had changed them, hoping to clarify them, perhaps based on his/her own knowledge of that particular audience, or maybe just out of personal preference. Regardless of the rationale, I gave some other suggestions, rather than ask/tell the editor to keep my wording as it was. With some other equally good options, I hoped that one of them would work well for us both. (To be honest, I haven't reread the article so I don't know if the changes were made. I didn't like those changes, but in the grand scheme of my existence, they obviously weren't "fighting words"; they didn't change the intent of my article or undermine it or call into question my ability as a writer, so I can live with it. Although one editor in another magazine some years back put a very ugly dangling modifier in my article and didn't give me a chance to see it before it went to press. Yuck!) On the other side of the fence, now. As an editor I'll make changes that I think clarify or tighten or brighten the author's language (more or less depending on how familiar I am with the author). Some authors feel comfortable with that approach, others really hate any changes at all. And sometimes I make a poor judgment call, although I hope those times are in the minority. If an author responds with, "this doesn't work for me," I'm not glued to "my way." But if the author responds with "hey, put that back the way I had it," that doesn't solve the problem that I felt needed to be addressed. Sometimes it's a small thing, a slight nuance, and while I think my suggested change is an improvement, if the author doesn't like it, no big deal; it's their book and it doesn't compromise our reputation for quality. Sometimes there is a serious problem to be solved. The writing shows inconsistent character development or may have peculiar connotations beyond the author's intentions. Sometimes it's just the wrong word, like saying "I was mortified" instead of "I was terrified" or "she inferred" rather than "she implied"). When authors don't see the reason for the change and don't ask, I think they may be missing out on an opportunity to learn more about their craft. The change may be because the editor sees or knows something the author doesn't (although, yes, it may simply be a matter of personal). And yes, the author may well have more information about something than an editor does - which is why it's nice to communicate and not be overly protective or defensive about one's own words or demeaning and belittling about another's words). Unlike some writers, I've never been "butchered" by an editor, although I've disagreed with what editors did or wanted to do to what I'd written. I've had more experience editing than being edited, and I hope that means something (that I'm not just here because I was in the right place at the right time when there was a job opening). Some writers feel I've helped them improve their writing and others have hated almost every single change I've suggested. (One author said he/she would be "embarrassed" to include one of my changes in his/her book, and I'm not talking about a love scene. Naturally I thought it was a valid suggestion or I wouldn't have made it.) My only conclusion is that writing and editing are both very personal and very subjective; writers and editors both feel they have some ability or they wouldn't be doing what they do. I'm still working on a theory for positive writer/editor dynamics, but I think it may come down to communication, tolerance, and respect. In fact, when I became a full-time editor I started to shy away from some of the writers' organizations I belonged to. I just couldn't handle the abuse :-(. And all this is just my reaction to Linda's experience after a long day trying to juggle the kinds of questions editors face on a daily basis from themselves, the authors they work with, the writers who submit manuscripts, and the other people in the business who are working on other sides of the equation, all trying to put the different pieces together into a meaningful, congruent whole even though writing and publishing are often two different entities living at opposite ends of the universe. Signed, Valerie Holladay (A tired mostly fiction editor who at times would like the kind of brainless work Chris Bigelow described that leaves sufficient energy at the end of the day to go home and write and I'm "off-duty" so please don't anyone edit or proof this post and send it to me and tell me I'm in the wrong profession :-) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 23 Jan 2001 22:51:00 -0800 On Wed, 03 Jan 2001 Andrew Hall writes: > What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about faith and/or religion? > What was it about it/them that you liked? A day of Pleasure, by Isaac Bashevis Singer, also Joseph and Koza or The Sacrifice to the Vistula, also "A Sabbath in Lisbon," and of course, that wonderful scene where "Gimpel, The Fool" decides not to desecrate the bread dough. Measure for Measure and King Lear and The Winter's Tale by Shaxbeard Revelation and Parker's Back and (especially) Good Country People, by Flannery O'Connor Cathedral and A Small, Good Thing by Ray Carver. He wouldn't have thought of himself as a believer, but his stories are often quite religious, these two particularly, in how they deal with estrangement and at-one-ment. The Last Gentleman and The Second Coming, by Walker Percy. Like Williston Bibb Barrett I am deaf in my left ear, and just as confused by the world as him. I love the last 20 pages of the Second Coming where Will reaches out to God through serving other people, and the part where Allie breaks out of the asylum. I was a bit disappointed that Sutter Vaught doesn't play much of a role in The Second Coming. I've remained, for 10 or 12 years, halfway through Love in the Ruins, but I want to finish it so I can read The Thanatos Syndrome, then The Moviegoer and Lancelot. I think I could turn out as good a stylist as Percy--now I've just got to find the stories to tell. Endless Mountains by Reynolds Price. Bruce Jorgensen said he thinks its about the resurrection of the body and I think he's right. It's also about the ambivalence we have towards/from those we save and who save us. "Nine Mysteries," a sequence of poems in his first volume, "Vital Provisions." I especially like "Naked Boy" Where Jesus shows up on Passover morning to make a chicken coop for his friend. And I love the passage in "The Dream of a House" where he says, "Will I be alone," and the angel opens the closet to show him a man Nailed to a T-shaped rig-- Full-grown, his face eyelevel with mine. Eyes clamped. He has borne on a body No stronger than mine every Offense a sane man would dread-- Flailed, pierced, gouged, crushed-- But he has the still bearable sweet Salt smell of blood from my own finger, Not yet brown, though his long Hair is stiff with clots, flesh blue. A Bed by the Window, by M. Scott Peck--Murder mystery in a nursing home, where prayer plays a part in solving the mystery. The Blood of the Lamb, by Peter DeVries. Inspired by his daughter dying of leukemia I think I read (in How to Light a Water Heater and Other War Stories, a collection of newspaper columns I came across in 1976 when I was moving books from the old BYU library into the new BYU library (And those freskids who started in 1999 thought _they_ had the new library.)) The narrator comes to some peace with his faith after the death, only to find a tape his daughter recorded telling him how much she liked a rather nihilistic essay he had written. I particularly love the scene where he throws the cake in the statue's face. Death Comes for the Archbishop and Sapphira and the Slave Girl by Willa Cather. Moses, Man of the Mountains, by Zora Neale Hurston--Read about half of it in grad school when I was looking out literature drawn from religious folklore. Gotta find another copy and finish it. Jesus Tales, by Romulus Linney. A hoot and a holler as the Perry New York branch mission leader DeWayne Cox would say. The long, opening story, "Old Man Joseph and His Family," is wonderfully funny, Joseph's frustration and anger at this miracle-performing baby. And of course, I've got to mention Stephen Minot's Surviving the Flood, great story for anyone who loves Noah. Narrated by 900 year old Ham, prisoner in the "tower of which hath been spoken." Louis Owens' The Sharpest Sight is a wondrous piece about the Choctaw afterlife meeting the Catholic afterlife, sorta. Mundo Morales, who's looking for the body of his friend, has a ghostly grandfather who pops in and out of his patrol car giving him advice and helping the girl Mundo's murdered friend killed understand her death and cope with it. "Attis McCurtain spun in the river, riding the black flood, aware of the branches that trailed over his face and touched his body, spinning in the current of the night toward something he could feel coming closer, rising up to meet him. He knew he was dead, and in death an ancient memory had awakened, a stirring in his stilled blood, moving with him and around him on the flood." And Attis's brother Cole is also looking for the body, and his Uncle is using his spirit power trying to help change the narrative that destroyed Attis, and stop it from destroying Cole. The scene where Attis's father makes a sweat lodge for a girl who's just been raped and, who he knows might have killed Attis, is quite moving. Interestingly, I learned at the 1999 RMMLA convention that Owens sharply criticizes Sherman Alexie in Mixed Blood Messages for being too nihilistic. (Hmm, well, I'm starting to get caught up on my e-mail) Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Faith(fu)less Fiction Date: 23 Jan 2001 23:13:17 -0800 January 20, 2001. I was reading Linda Adams 1/17 post, "Dealing with Mormon History," and saw her comment, "That said, I'm also on the side that is tired of reading faithless stories, stories critical of the Church, its doctrine, policy, or leaders. But I'm also tired of reading fluff."=20 It occurred to me that some people think anything negative is faithless, and I realized that Peter rebukes Jesus after the Transfiguration because he thinks Jesus's prophecy about going to Jerusalem and being killed. is telling a faithless story. (A bit like the woman I met on my mission who told me she had always been a bit disappointed in Jesus for saying, Eli, Eli, Lama Sabacthani. "He should know that God is always with us.") The idea of the Lord dying is horrifying. Think of President Hinckley standing up in conference and saying, "I'm going to Jerusalem next week without my bodyguard and I'm going to be scourged and nailed to a cross," and you get some idea of how Nephi felt to have a vision and learn what few people knew, that his God would be tortured to death, some idea of how Alma felt reading the prophecies to learn that the Savior of the world would be nailed to a cross. Then I realized I had said all this in a story I wrote for Christmas. It's very short, so I'll include it. It grew from a long discussion with D. Michael Martindale and Scott Parkin at the Writers' Conference about the ethics of writing fiction from the POV of historical people. The Dog's Feast Harlow S. Clark "You've been reading the prophecies again," Peter said. "The ancients didn't love the prophecies," Jesus said, walking further. "They killed Zenos and Isaiah, stoned Zenock. Didn't like what they said about death." He wondered how his twelve would take the words, how he could tell them. A meal, yes. A good type for his death. He would hold up a piece of bread, say, "This is my body," then tear it to pieces, but they would think Sustenance, not broken, torn=97just as the phrase Lamb of God did not bring them a picture of slit throat and blood over lintels. "You always brood when you read the prophecies," Peter said. "Like a hen gathering her chicks," Jesus answered. They had walked a few minutes before Peter said, "Oh, her brood." "Yes." They came to Sidon, to Simon's house. They would eat and rest, but a crowd formed and a woman asked for him. "Greek," Simon said. "Old Phoenician family."=20 She knelt before him. "My daughter. You know she has an unclean spirit." Jesus remembered the centurion in Capernaum. "He loves our people," they had told him, "built us a synagogue." As they led him toward the house, the man came out, stopped him. "I am not worthy for you to enter my house, Lord. But you don't need to. I am a man of power. I say =91Go,' and people go, =91Do this,' and people do. You are a man of greater power. You need only speak and my servant is healed." Jesus loved him. "He is whole." Those outside the covenant had greater faith. He wanted to say, "She is healed," but heard himself say, "The children of the kingdom eat first. It's not fitting to take the covenant food and toss it under the table for the dogs." She looked at him. Held his eyes. "Yes Lord, but the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs." Her eyes, her words, were a hand thrust into his wound, breaking a crumb of his flesh. She knew. Knew what his twelve did not want to know, what the ancients had killed not to know. "Go your way for your saying. The devil is gone out of your daughter." Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 24 Jan 2001 00:20:06 -0700 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > How about this for a thread: y'all remember your first attempts to Be A Writer? My first "novel" was called _Lost In Space_ (I just can't figure out where I got that idea). I wrote in in grade school. My friends seemed to make their way into it as characters. Partway in, I started reading it to them at school during lunch. They got such a kick out of being characters in it that I started tailoring the writing to what I thought would get the best reactions from them. Like for example, Don Plumb became "Big King Plumb from Planet X." (Please remember, this was grade school.) Guess you could say it was my first attempt at "writing for the audience." The manuscript was lost long ago. Pray it stays lost. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tarbet, Scott" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 24 Jan 2001 09:54:44 MDT > I worked in a real estate (pronounced "rill astate") > office for a short time. One of the realtors > (pronounced "rill-a-ders") whose name was Dale > (pronounced "Dell") announced one day that "this sell > felled." It took me a few minutes to figure out that he > meant that the sale had failed. > > However, I think this is a Utah accent - maybe even a > Spanish Fork accent - more than a Mormon one. > > -Christine Atkinson I was born and raised (partly) here in Utah Valley, and was always taught by my diction-conscious mother that "Amercan Fark is where you git up in the marnin, put on yer sharts, and feed carn to the harses with a fark." [Scott Tarbet] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 24 Jan 2001 10:26:49 -0700 I got my bachelor's degree at a small communications college called = Emerson College in Boston. It started out as a school of oratory, and as a = holdover from that origin all students were still required to take Voice = and Articulation in 1988. In introducing ourselves, when I said I was from = the Salt Lake City area, the teacher said I would probably get an A, = because there's almost no urban Utah accent--it's the closest thing to a = clean, standard American accent. I don't think he meant that as exclusive = to Utah but probably applying to many midwestern states (most of which = start with a vowel). And I agree--except for some occasional Mormon smarmy-ness (and of course = transplanted accents from elsewhere), Salt Lake county has a very clean, = indistinguishable, vanilla accent. However, it starts to warp once you get = very far into Davis and Utah counties. Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Year in Review, Pt. 3 (Drama, Essays) Date: 02 Jan 2001 10:55:10 +0800 >Andrew asked, ><< Wow, who is doing the programming at >Little London? Has it been getting good audiences? >> >During the year in question, I was the artistic director of the Little London >Dinner Theatre. That's the simple explanation why nearly all of the plays >were written either by me or my buddies. Turnouts have been astoundingly >good. At the end of the year, I retired from that exalted position. First >play of the new season: Joseph And The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. And coming up ... a couple Neil Simon plays, "The Wizard of Oz," and some other old chestnuts. This after I publicly praised Little London for doing shows that were new and different. Oh, well. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Changes Date: 24 Jan 2001 17:51:24 GMT > > --- Linda Adams wrote: > > > What do you do with > > editors who mess up, rather than improve, your > > writing? In your opinion? > > Who's right, and how can you tell, as the biased > > author? > As a freelance editor, my experience has been that writers almost always love what I suggest. I think if an editor seems to mess up your writing, you need to talk face to face or on the phone to understand why she made the changes. If her reasoning doesn't wash for you, then you know you've got a crummy editor. But I can say as a writer that sometimes I just love things I've written, but they're really not that good. THEN I need that editor. Cathy Gileadi Wilson This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Faith(fu)less Fiction Date: 24 Jan 2001 12:31:01 -0700 On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:13:17 -0800, harlowclark@juno.com wrote: >January 20, 2001. I was reading Linda Adams 1/17 post, "Dealing with >Mormon History," and saw her comment, "That said, I'm also on the side >that is tired of reading faithless stories, stories critical of the >Church, its doctrine, policy, or leaders. But I'm also tired of reading >fluff."=3D20 > >It occurred to me that some people think anything negative is faithless, >and I realized that Peter rebukes Jesus after the Transfiguration = because >he thinks Jesus's prophecy about going to Jerusalem and being killed. is >telling a faithless story. (A bit like the woman I met on my mission who >told me she had always been a bit disappointed in Jesus for saying, Eli, >Eli, Lama Sabacthani. "He should know that God is always with us.") I think this is a common misperception. Speaking for myself, I can say = that I don't care if a story has negative elements or not. The gospel has negative elements (as you point out). The negative has to exist for opposition and contrast. I don't want stories that have no negative content. What I am tired of is content that is antagonistic to the = church or gospel. Note, I don't even care if it is antagonistic to individuals unless those individuals are set up to represent the church or gospel. >The idea of the Lord dying is horrifying. Think of President Hinckley >standing up in conference and saying, "I'm going to Jerusalem next week >without my bodyguard and I'm going to be scourged and nailed to a = cross," >and you get some idea of how Nephi felt to have a vision and learn what >few people knew, that his God would be tortured to death, some idea of >how Alma felt reading the prophecies to learn that the Savior of the >world would be nailed to a cross. Yes. That is horrifying. And stories about that should be disturbing. Scott Bronson's _Stones_ was very disturbing. And very intense because = it showed and humanized some very disturbing aspects of the gospel. But it = was ultimately faithful because it comes from the standpoint that the gospel = is true--that people can and do follow God, even when it hurts. Pain in the service of God is disturbing, but necessary in many ways. My positions against the faithless hogwash I see so much of is in no way = a denial of the negative aspects of Earthly life. I just want stories that explore issues from a position that Christ lives and is active in our lives--not that life is beautiful and trials don't exist. That = *shouldn't* be too much to ask. >Then I realized I had said all this in a story I wrote for Christmas. >It's very short, so I'll include it. It grew from a long discussion with >D. Michael Martindale and Scott Parkin at the Writers' Conference about >the ethics of writing fiction from the POV of historical people. I liked your story. I didn't find it disturbing or faithless in any way. It assumed that Christ is God. That He knew and accepted His sacrifice. = It showed that he cared deeply about his apostles and worried about them. = What is faithless about that? And I'd kind of like to take this moment to tie in a post by Eric = Samuelsen about his student who wanted to relate her personal story. Frankly, I = don't think it is even important if her experience is true, it is still her experience. I would like to see the play she ends up writing. I am glad that she is concerned that "it might make the church look bad". I think that if she is concerned with that, she can take steps to make sure she deals with individual choices and their ramifications. Our leaders have = no claim to infallibility. I have profound personal experience with the reverse situation where a church court wrongly cleared an individual and = the devastation that caused for whole generations. Both stories *should* be told--as warning, as aid in understanding, as comfort to the suffering, = and even as accusation. But the target needs to be the individuals, not the gospel. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 24 Jan 2001 10:48:49 -0800 At 10:51 PM 1/23/2001 -0800, you wrote: >On Wed, 03 Jan 2001 Andrew Hall writes: > > What are your favorite non-Mormon stories about faith and/or religion? > > What was it about it/them that you liked? > Graham Greene's "The Power and the Glory." Wonderful story about an alcoholic priest in search of redemption. Also his "Monsignor Quixote." --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Cobabe" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 24 Jan 2001 12:49:49 -0700 When I lived in central Utah, to hear someone pronounce "CARN", "FARK", etc, was always a fascination. I have long wondered, how is such local affectation introduced into language? I heard similar local color living in Huntsville, Alabama for a couple of years. In the kindergarten class, terms like "fixen'" and "fetch" were used to illustrate proper grammar. And of course, "y'all" is ubiquitous. --- Jim Cobabe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 24 Jan 2001 12:56:01 -0700 I just think "Big King Plumb from Planet X" has the greatest sound to it! Yes! Please repeat three times rapidly! Aren't your lips having fun! I wouldn't mind hearing more about Plumb! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Faith(fu)less Fiction Date: 24 Jan 2001 12:58:45 -0700 So nice, Harlow. "Breaking a crumb of his flesh." Beautiful. Thank you. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 24 Jan 2001 09:14:42 -0700 I wrote (or rather, started writing) my first novel at age 11. It was, of course, pure drivel. But I thought it was wonderful. My mother had told me that when O' Henry first submitted some of his stories to a publisher, they were rejected because of spelling errors and general sloppiness. Eventually he found an editor who was able to look past all that to the masterful storytelling beneath. Now, I don't know how much of that story is true, but I was very inspired by it as a child who was not the world's greatest speller--so inspired, in fact, that when I wrote the cover letter to the editor which was to accompany my manuscript (oh, yes--I was that determined), I ended it with the poignant plea to "Remember O' Henry!" My favorite piece of early writing, however, has to be the poem I wrote at age 15, apparently under the spell of some zealous seminary teacher. :-) Oh wicked world! Entreat me not For I have seen the better part And cannot, but there, at peace reside. Oh wicked world! I scorn thy ways Thy lusts and passions wither cold . . . For the life of me, I couldn't figure out where to go from there. I mean, how do you top "wither cold"? Ah, well. What a fun romp down memory lane! Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paynecabin@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 24 Jan 2001 15:17:25 EST Why write about the first attempt when you can just publish it? This was composed when I was about eight, and therefore, unfortunately, accountable. I think I had film rights in mind, because the title page says the Laste Gunfire script At the starting of our story there are tow pals thay were both crooks. Lets look in on them and see whats going on. Thay are robing the bank after they robed the bank thay ran off in a clowd of dust and ran into the forest there thay broak camp. by and by thay hered foot beats it was a possie. and they neuw what that ment so thay paked up and ran off. the next day thay were out scouting and low anbehold Indians ataket them. Thay ran and ran ontill the Indians lost their trail. Prety soon one of the two pals realised that it was wrong to be a crooke so he cwit doing wrong soon he liked doing good so much that he didint want the bad around. word got to his pal about this so he sent aman to tell the good pal that he wanted to have a showdoun so the good pal met the bad pal in the street thay moved far apart then drawed the good pal won and that was the last gunfire. the end Marvin Payne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarieUtah@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 24 Jan 2001 15:30:29 EST In a message dated 1/24/2001 10:09:28 AM Mountain Standard Time, dwager@vii.com writes: << Debbie Wager (who still wishes from time to time that the job offer that brought her to Utah had been somewhere else). >> Is it because we have a regional accent? Or quaint speaking mannerisms? I wouldn't dream of moving to another part of the country, then berate the inhabitants for speaking in a manner that *I* personally find laughable. How do you speak? Where were you raised? Were the folks in your state all Shakespearean orators? I'm a bit offended, but I'm not going to apologize for it (even though we are taught to play nice and try not to offend with our opinions). I grew up in Utah County, my ancestors were pioneers (like those of many on this list) They came from different states and countries. Each settler brought a little bit of his/her home in the form of traditions, folk practices, superstitions and speech. We're a mini-melting pot. The little quirks in our speech, the words we use, the way we pronounce them...these things help make us the unique and (I think) interesting people that we are. I realize that I sound like I lack a sense of humor. I usually love to laugh at our shared foibles--Mormon humor can be really fun. But for some reason, this topic was starting to touch a nerve. Shirley Hatfield (who pronounces creek as "crick" and says "Amer'can Fork.") - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] ADAMS, "Elsa at the Pool" Published Online Date: 24 Jan 2001 15:48:09 -0500 Linda Adams wrote: > Hi all, > > My short story, "Elsa at the Pool," has been reprinted online in _Friction_ > magazine. (I believe it will also appear in their upcoming print version.) > It first appeared in _Lynx Eye_ last year, and I thought some of you might > want to take a look at it. > > http://www.frictionmag.com/ The story pales to the photo--lovely! Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 24 Jan 2001 14:03:08 -0700 Deborah, Which district? I'm in Nebo. I did a practice spelling bee in my classroom and some of the students had trouble with my Indiana accent (despite the fact that I've lived in Utah 17 years) Of course, they also seemed to have some question in the school spelling bee where the pronoucer was a Utah native. Go figure! Lu Ann Staheli Deborah Wager wrote: > True story: > > This morning I went to the district spelling bee (where the winners of the > school bees compete on their way to the state bee--my son came in fourth, > btw). The pronouncer, in explaining the rules before the bee began, said > that he would pronounce some of the words "better" than the dictionary > pronunciation because dictionaries use a lot of schwas to account for > regional diffferences in pronunciation, but *here in Utah we use purer > vowel sounds than in other parts of the country*!!! This is not an exact > quote but accurately represents what he said, I believe. However, there > were only two words he pronounced differently that I would have expected. > > Debbie Wager (who still wishes from time to time that the job offer that > brought her to Utah had been somewhere else). - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 24 Jan 2001 14:14:20 -0700 I've always wondered if I'm supposed to salute my "patriotical blessing;" display the team I "won" on my mantle, consider morning dew as the "moisture" that was prayed for, and use my "bat tree" as a Halloween decoration instead of to run my car. Maybe they can tell me "down to the BYU." We talk about this very subject quite a bit in the English/writing classes I teach. Oops. Have to go--a "sliver" in my finger. Hoosier translations: patriarchal blessing; beat the team; rain or water content; battery; at BYU; splinter. Right, Eric? ; ) Lu Ann Staheli - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: [AML] Duplicate Book Title Names Date: 24 Jan 2001 17:58:57 -0600 I've got a question concerning the title to my current novel, which I hope to be submitting to LDS publishers soon. I had it finished a few years ago as a novella, but decided to rewrite it into a novel after comments from a few friends. Today I noticed on Horizon Publishers' web page that they already have a book by the same title, tho it's not a novel. I was quite disappointed to see that. I know that you can't copyright a book title name, but duplicate titles can lead to confusion. The title of my novel is _The Fingerprints of God_. The name of this new book by Horizon is _Fingerprints of God -- Evidences from Near-Death Studies, Scientific Research on Creation, and Mormon Theology._ Is this title conflict going to bother anybody, particularly an editor of a prospective publisher? Changing the title of my novel is just not an option. The story is based on the title, which is patterned after a poem of the same name that I wrote back in college in 1987. I could never convince myself to change the title. Darvell Hunt Pleasant Grove, UT _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] ADAMS, "Elsa at the Pool" Published Online Date: 24 Jan 2001 20:16:02 -0600 >Linda Adams wrote: > > My short story, "Elsa at the Pool," has been reprinted online in _Friction_ > > magazine. > > http://www.frictionmag.com/ > >The story pales to the photo--lovely! > >Tony Markham Thank you, Tony. I was, BTW, five months pregnant at the time of that photo. Linda ======= Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Changes Date: 24 Jan 2001 20:56:39 -0600 At 07:57 PM 1/23/01, you wrote: >Sometimes there is a serious problem to be solved. The >writing ... >may have peculiar connotations beyond the author's >intentions. I'm happy to report that we've solved the problem without too many ruffled feathers. Turns out the above was indeed my problem, in the sentence where I had the biggest problem with their changes. Which was: my sentence: She looked at him, staring, her eyes helplessly falling all over his person. edited version: She looked at him, staring, her gaze running over his strong body. The editor felt my sentence could be read as real eyeballs dropping everywhere, which is a valid observation. He also apologized for fixing it to a phrase that didn't work well. (The second sentence doesn't convey all the nuances of meaning the sentence needed.) We've worked out something together which is better, I think. The surprising part was finding it in print that way; the editors I've worked with before would have passed this significant of a change on to me before printing their edits. (I suppose I've been spoiled.) I really appreciate Vallerie's and Cathy's information on the editing side. Both posts made a lot of sense. I'm always willing to change my wording, but I do like to know why sometimes. Or at least have the opportunity to approve changes or suggest my own. I'd agree it's good advice not to go running around saying, "Change it back! Change it back!" If there wasn't something wrong in the first place, the editor would have left it alone. That said, some changes can be largely personal preference. These I didn't even bother fighting over, although I still like my way better. Such as: My Way: "Oh?" she said, raising her brow. Her turn to be amused. Their Way: "Oh?" she said, raising her brow, her turn to be amused. The second is more grammatically correct, I suppose, but A) I've been sick and I can't diagram this sentence right now to figure it out, it's making my head hurt, B) on the surface it appears to be mainly a change in rhythm, and C) even if my way is less grammar-friendly, I was aware of that when I did it and I retain the right to like it better. But it wasn't worth the effort to go ask why they did that. In fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't worth the effort to go over it just now, either. Let's all hope my antibiotics kick in soon so I can write posts that make more sense. Or at least are more worth the trouble of reading. :-) Linda ===== Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Duplicate Book Title Names Date: 24 Jan 2001 20:11:07 -0700 Book titles are duplicated all the time in the massive publishing world, but it might cause a bit of a problem with a market as small as the LDS market still remains. Of course, anyone who was looking for the book would check the book description to see if it was fiction or non-fiction. Hopefully they will also know the author. With what I've learned of the publishing world, I wouldn't feel so strongly about my title that I'd NEVER give it up if I were you. Those feelings just might lose you a book contract. I've seen many talented writers never get published because they were adamant about titles, content, length, character names, etc. to the point the editor/publishing house decided they weren't worth the trouble to deal with. The title can still serve as a theme, even if your publisher prefers to drop it as the actual book title. Good luck! Lu Ann Staheli - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 24 Jan 2001 22:28:48 -0500 At 02:14 PM 1/24/2001 -0700, you wrote: >I've always wondered if I'm supposed to salute my "patriotical blessing;" display the team I "won" on my mantle, consider morning dew as the "moisture" that was prayed for, and use my "bat tree" as a Halloween decoration >instead of to run my car. Maybe they can tell me "down to the BYU." We talk about this very subject quite a bit in the English/writing classes I teach. Oops. Have to go--a "sliver" in my finger. Hoosier translations: >patriarchal blessing; beat the team; rain or water content; battery; at BYU; splinter. Right, Eric? ; ) >Lu Ann Staheli I'm sorry, but I have lived in eight states since I was married and have traveled as an actor or director or teacher or convention goer to another fifteen or so. Every one of those states had distinctive speech patterns or dialects. In most of those states citizens of the state feel free to make jokes about their own dialects. Here in the South, performers and writers from Andy Griffeth to Lewis Grizzard have had great fun with the different state dialects. (And be aware that there is no such thing as a "Southern Accent", the accent is West Virginia is as different from Georgia or from Louisiana as it is from Utah) Having said that, I really feel that for anyone (outsider) to come into an area and make fun of the regionalisms in that area shows a degree of smug parochialism that is really embarrassing. Be aware that you (the outsider) sound as ridiculous to the locals as they sound to you. I don't care where you are from, you have linguistic quirks that identify you as a resident of that area. By the way, the comment, that Salt Lake City has a very clean Midwestern American accent (What is striven for on television) is accurate. The saddest thing about dwelling on the regionalism is that one builds a wall that prevents real communication at a variety of levels. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paynecabin@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 24 Jan 2001 22:24:16 EST I've enjoyed the humorous aspects of everyone's reports on the way central and southern Utahns speak. But I wonder if anyone has gotten serious and actually researched where "mell" (what the postman delivers) and "harse" (what he used to deliver it on) come from. Different parts of the state were settled, all within a rather short time, by very specific nationalities of emmigrants. And it's all astoundingly well documented. There has to be some reason why we talk the way we do, other than that we're bumpkins. I don't know much about the development of dialect, but I'm pretty sure nobody ever called a meeting and said, "How about if from now on we all say 'fell' instead of 'fail.'" And I can't imagine one hugely influential wooden-eared individual mispronouncing a particular vowel and having it catch on generally. One shot in the dark at how certain rhythms and intonations developed in "religious" discourse would be that some of us are imitating favorite general conference speakers. This is easy for me to imagine. But Elder L. Tom Perry (one of my favorites) learned from the people he grew up with to say "harshoe bend in the Mississippi" (he was talking about the site of Nauvoo, and I thought he meant "harsh 'U' bend"). Where did his people learn it? A side question: When Elder Perry lived for a long time in Boston, taking pains to keep his sojourn there from becoming a Salt Lake colonization, why didn't he unlearn that way of speaking? Maybe it was a part of him that we should understand and try to preserve. This is hard for me to say, because people who don't talk like the guys on the news get on my nerves. But that's my problem. I once met a lady who felt passionately that we should universally adopt simplified spelling, so that "cough" would be "kof" and "bough" would be "bow." (Not to be confused with "bow," which would be "bo.") She thought it would solve lots of problems in education, particularly among disadvantaged kids. But the weird way some things are spelled is, for me, part of their meaning. On the same trip where I met this lady, one of my travelling companions was Lyle Shamo, now the head of the church's audio-visual department. I always thought, "What the heck kind of name is 'Shamo' anyway? How flat and wierd." Then I found out that his ancestors were French. Voila! The name suddenly made perfect sense to me! Rich, interesting, but somebody had tinkered with the spelling! (I don't know French--it was probably "Chamieux" or something, and meant "enchanted torrent through the black stone.") I wonder what we might lose in our language culture if we tinker with the pronunciation, "fixing" it. This is outside the world of right/wrong or even standard/substandard. Again, where's the research? Marvin Payne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Duplicate Book Title Names Date: 24 Jan 2001 20:29:33 -0700 on 1/24/01 4:58 PM, Darvell at DHunt@cornerpub.com wrote: > The title of my novel is _The Fingerprints of God_. The name of this new > book by Horizon is _Fingerprints of God -- Evidences from Near-Death > Studies, Scientific Research on Creation, and Mormon Theology._ Is this > title conflict going to bother anybody, particularly an editor of a > prospective publisher? > > Changing the title of my novel is just not an option. The story is based > on the title, which is patterned after a poem of the same name that I wrote > back in college in 1987. I could never convince myself to change the title. Can't copyright a title, can you? Good thing, since songwriter Steven Curtis Chapman had a #1 Contemporary Christian hit by that title a few years back. :-) Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 24 Jan 2001 23:02:14 -0600 Another feature of the Utah accent that hasn't been mentioned is the higher-than-normal use of post-syllabic glottal stops. (The name isn't "Rachel," it's "Ra-?chel"; you aren't a "teacher," you're a "tea-?cher.") Also, an introductory linguistics course I had several years ago at the University of Illinois indicated that there were some similarities between accent in the Utah region and western Illinois. The textbook is in storage, so I may be wrong, but I *think* the point in question was the Spanish "Fark" effect. Another distinguishing feature of the Utah accent to me (I was born in NJ and grew up in Arkansas, by the way), is a very strongly pronounced "r." I don't know how to describe it except to say that it is very tight, kind of the opposite of the British "r" in say, the word "father." Rose _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Duplicate Book Title Names Date: 24 Jan 2001 20:15:01 -0800 Note also that there's a book called "The Fingerprint of God" that deals with the Bible codes. Not an LDS book, but virtually the same title. --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 25 Jan 2001 00:30:46 -0600 At 12:49 23-01-01 -0700, Debbie Wager wrote: >True story: > >This morning I went to the district spelling bee (where the winners of the >school bees compete on their way to the state bee--my son came in fourth, >btw). The pronouncer, in explaining the rules before the bee began, said >that he would pronounce some of the words "better" than the dictionary >pronunciation because dictionaries use a lot of schwas to account for >regional diffferences in pronunciation, but *here in Utah we use purer >vowel sounds than in other parts of the country*!!! This is not an exact >quote but accurately represents what he said, I believe. However, there >were only two words he pronounced differently that I would have expected. Which were? -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 25 Jan 2001 00:40:45 -0600 At 12:49 24-01-01 -0700, Jim Cobabe wrote: >When I lived in central Utah, to hear someone pronounce "CARN", "FARK", >etc, was always a fascination. I have long wondered, how is such local >affectation introduced into language? > >I heard similar local color living in Huntsville, Alabama for a couple of >years. In the kindergarten class, terms like "fixen'" and "fetch" were >used to illustrate proper grammar. And of course, "y'all" is ubiquitous. It solves the problem that standard English has by using the same word for both the singular and plural forms of the second person personal pronoun. What is really amusing is to hear a Yankee use "y'all" when talking to _one_ person. -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Faith(fu)less Fiction Date: 25 Jan 2001 02:24:05 -0700 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > Speaking for myself, I can say that > I don't care if a story has negative elements or not. The gospel has > negative elements (as you point out). The negative has to exist for > opposition and contrast. I don't want stories that have no negative > content. What I am tired of is content that is antagonistic to the church > or gospel. Note, I don't even care if it is antagonistic to individuals > unless those individuals are set up to represent the church or gospel. I don't even care if the story has characters that are antagonistic to the Gospel. To me, all a story needs to have to be "faithful" is: 1. Be truthful (brutally truthful if necessary). 2. Accept that LDS theology is the true worldview (that's _real_ LDS theology, not every pseudo-doctrine that comes down the pike). This should automatically be subsumed under number one if you're a believing Mormon. In the case of science fiction and fantasy, I would modify this requirement to say that some metaphorical substitute for the Gospel would qualify (e.g., magic for the power of the priesthood). 3. Offer the possibility of redemption (in a literary sense) to every major character (whether the character accepts or rejects the offer). Since I don't believe in fatalism, I also think this falls under category number one. Well, maybe with Satan and his angels I'd make an exception, but no one else. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 25 Jan 2001 02:37:32 -0700 Brown wrote: > I just think "Big King Plumb from Planet X" has the greatest sound to it! > Yes! Please repeat three times rapidly! Aren't your lips having fun! I > wouldn't mind hearing more about Plumb! Marilyn Brown I hardly remember anything after all these years, but I do recall that King Plumb liked eyeballs in his salad. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 25 Jan 2001 02:41:56 -0700 Paynecabin@aol.com wrote: > This was > composed when I was about eight, and therefore, unfortunately, accountable. But that's for moral accountability. Aesthetic accountability starts somewhere around seventeen, I think. I believe that's in Doctrine and Covenants section 140-something-or-other. Otherwise how could you account for the existence of Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 25 Jan 2001 09:41:34 -0700 MarieUtah@aol.com wrote: > Is it because we have a regional accent? Or quaint speaking mannerisms? I > wouldn't dream of moving to another part of the country, then berate the > inhabitants for speaking in a manner that *I* personally find laughable. How Shirley and the list, I'm terribly sorry to have given the impression that I am offended by the regional dialects of those around me. On the contrary, I frequently speak out in defense of regional dialects and informal spoken English as being valuable, self-consistent, and actually the "real language," where formal written language is an attempt to standardize and freeze language in a form in which it was never actually spoken. My offense is at the smug self-righteousness I see in increased measure since moving to Utah (both in myself and others). I do recognize that Californians can be just as smugly self-righteous, but I'm frequently blinded to it because its much harder to see some of those things in the mirror. In the post you were replying to I was commenting on the "we don't have an accent here" attitude as it corresponded to the discussion we have been having, particularly regarding Utah vowel sounds, not on the vowel sounds themselves. In the interest of posting more frequently to this list I have made several flippant comments on this thread without thinking through the ramifications of what I was saying. (If I reread and evaluate my posts I always end up deleting rather than posting.) I apologize to any who have been offended by what I have said and I will attempt to strike a more careful balance in the future. Debbie Wager - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 25 Jan 2001 09:36:30 -0700 > I don't care where >you are from, you have linguistic quirks that identify you as a resident of >that area. My ex-husband was from West Virginia, and he insisted that he had no accent. He would get really irritated when one person after another told him they could tell he was from West Virginia by his accent. In Virginia, where I joined the Church, we could tell when a visitor was from Utah by the way he or she pronounced the word "ward." For us, it rhymed with "sword," but for them, it rhymed with "card." A dead giveaway. Even inside Virginia, not a very large state, I could identify a Richmond accent as different from my own. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 25 Jan 2001 10:06:18 -0700 > I wonder if anyone has gotten serious and >actually researched where "mell" (what the postman delivers) and "harse" >(what he used to deliver it on) come from. . . . I wonder what we might lose in our language culture if we >tinker with the pronunciation, "fixing" it. >Marvin Payne It seems to me that I read in an article in the Ensign quite a few years ago that the unique pronunciation endemic to Utah resulted from attempts to create a different sort of alphabet--to standardize on "the language of Deseret" or some such thing. Does anyone else remember references to a new alphabet? I seem to recall that certain sounds were assigned to certain symbols. Such a fiddling with the language might have resulted in the "American Fark" syndrome. A skilled on-line researcher might be able to find it. I can't even be sure now whether I read it in an Ensign before 1972 or after--different databases, right? barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brent J. Rowley" Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Changes Date: 25 Jan 2001 12:39:08 -0700 For what it's worth, Valerie, I was very impressed with the editing you did on my first book. I wish we could have had the chance to work together more. I DID learn a lot, and I DID appreciate all your recommendations and suggestions. (Well ... okay ... most of them.) Like they say, "two heads are better than one." And now that I'm self-published, I have to wear the editor's hat as well as the writer's hat on the same head. I always worry that I might really flub up without someone else seriously (and professionally) looking at my work. IMHO, a good editor is worth their weight in gold. A bad editor is a writer's worst nightmare. I believe the key to success is that both the writer and the editor be willing to give and take, and that both be more interested in the finished product than in 'pride of authorship' (or 'pride of editorship,' as the case may be). Keep up the good work. -BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 25 Jan 2001 14:52:04 -0700 How about: "Thy lusts and passions wither cold, especially since I've grown so old." Roy Schmidt >>> Sharlee Glenn 01/24/01 09:14AM >>> [snip] My favorite piece of early writing, however, has to be the poem I wrote at age 15, apparently under the spell of some zealous seminary teacher. :-) Oh wicked world! Entreat me not For I have seen the better part And cannot, but there, at peace reside. Oh wicked world! I scorn thy ways Thy lusts and passions wither cold . . . For the life of me, I couldn't figure out where to go from there. I mean, how do you top "wither cold"? Ah, well. What a fun romp down memory lane! Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: plus two Subject: [AML] Mormon Regionalism (was: Mormon Dialogue) Date: 25 Jan 2001 14:02:48 -0800 (PST) --- Richard Johnson wrote: > Having said that, I really feel that for anyone > (outsider) to come into an > area and make fun of the regionalisms in that area > shows a degree of smug > parochialism that is really embarrassing. Be aware > that you (the outsider) > sound as ridiculous to the locals as they sound to > you. I don't care where > you are from, you have linguistic quirks that > identify you as a resident of > that area. ---And--- > The saddest thing about dwelling on the regionalism > is that one builds a > wall that prevents real communication at a variety > of levels. Since I started this whole thing off, I thought that I'd back up Richard on this and say that linguistic differences should not be used as an excuse to indulge in parochialism. At the same time, it seems to me that while list members are bringing up all these regionalisms, it's all in good fun----one of the great features (albeit a sometimes ambiguous one) of a lot of regionalist literature is the ability to poke fun at the quirks of one's particular region, and I think that its okay for both outsiders and insiders to bring them up (and when it comes to Utahisms, we've had both). Of course when it comes to communication barriers, it helps if insiders are indulgent about letting outsiders (and let me just say that I'm oversymplifying this dichotomy just to help me think out what I want to say----we're all pretty much mutts when it comes to cultural influences) use the local materials in their literature, conversation etc. And it helps if outsiders use those local materials in a way that is nuanced, or complex, or shadowed, or multi-dimensional and respectful. Or rather, in a way that shows that the outsider appreciates the richness of the local culture. Now for a tangent on literary regionalism: Regionalism is another one of my particular interests and so while I understand what Richard is saying about dwelling on regionalism being a barrier to 'real communication,' I also want to state that in my opinion regionalism is not dwelt on/with enough (especially in literary studies---although that is beginning to change---although at the same time there is still the tendency to focus on hybridity and 'border zone' works that arise from regionalism(s) rather than the more traditionalist works). I am, of course, here broadening regionalism to move beyond linguistic differences to it's literary and cultural definition. This is nothing new to writers and critics of Mormon fiction, whose work is not given the same attention as those authors from either cosmopolitan or more established regional traditions. And since Mormonism is seen as a Intermountain West phenomenon its literary works suffer from the triple bind of: 1. coming from a religious tradition that is viewed with ignorance, hostility, or suspicion; 2. coming from the literary West, which has typically been ignored by the East coast publishing and media establishment 3. coming from the Intermountain West rather than the West Coast (which has a little bit more cachet when it comes to the literature of the west). Of course, the weird thing about the field of Mormon literary studies is that we have our own traditional center (Wasatch Front) of literary production, consumption and publishing, and so weirdly enough, it is the 'other' (often urban/cosmopolitan)authors who perhaps feel 'regionalized.' But what this field of Mormon literature offers (a traditional center with a large diaspora) is an engrossing mix of literatures (and we're starting to see this more and more, I think) produced from the center out into the periphary, embracing works both regional and cosmopolitan, rural and urban (and hybrid). Since the common thread is a common faith (rather than a particular literary movement or region) Mormon readers/writers/critics have the chance, if appreciative, interested, and indulgent to enjoy and be exposed to a variety of regionalisms and to think about how those -isms relate to the big -ism of Mormonism. ~~William Morris, stating the obvious and still saying 'collar' when I mean to say 'color' and then overpronouncing and saying 'colour' like I'm some English fashion designer, so I come off as both pompous and hick-like, which is exactly what I am----the ultimate Utah/California, rural/urban, Berkeley educated/small-town raised hybrid (but no cyborg implants yet). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 25 Jan 2001 16:27:21 -0700 On Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:40:45 -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote: >What is really amusing is to hear a Yankee use "y'all" when talking to=20 >_one_ person. In the area of Texas where I attended high school (the Dallas-Fort Worth area) "y'all" is the singular form, "all y'all" the plural. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: plus two Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 25 Jan 2001 16:21:47 -0800 (PST) --- "Barbara R. Hume" wrote: > It seems to me that I read in an article in the > Ensign quite a few years ago > that the unique pronunciation endemic to Utah > resulted from attempts to > create a different sort of alphabet--to standardize > on "the language of > Deseret" or some such thing. Does anyone else > remember references to a new > alphabet? I seem to recall that certain sounds were > assigned to certain > symbols. Such a fiddling with the language might > have resulted in the > "American Fark" syndrome. A skilled on-line > researcher might be able to > find it. I can't even be sure now whether I read it > in an Ensign before > 1972 or after--different databases, right? > > barbara hume > I can offer a bit of an answer since I have actually done research on the Deseret alphabet for use in a short story I'm working on. While your thesis, Barbara, is a good one---that the alphabet led to "American Fark" syndrome---the problem is that the Deseret alphabet never actually was that widespread. The amount of materials printed in it was rather small (the Book of Mormon [my family owns one---that how I first became interested in it], a school primer, and I believe some headstones in Parowan, or was it Payson?). The idea behind it was to help the immigrants from western and northern Europe learn English without having to deal with all the spelling vagaries that are part of our language. The alphabet was based on phonetics, with symbols (they are actually quite interesting looking) for each of the sounds used in the English language. Indeed, while it is unlikely that the Deseret alphabet influenced speech patterns in Utah, one can reconstruct to a certain extent the accent of those living in Utah at the time by comparing the differences between how the word is spelled in English and its Deseret alphabet analog (which works because as I mentioned above all the symbols were phonetic). But the alphabet never really took off. It wasn't taught in the schools for very long (less than a year or two, I think), and even then it was just a few teachers who would use it. So while the Ensign article might have made the case that the alphabet affected pronunciation, the research I have done wouldn't support the idea. There's more to be had out there---a google search will bring up links to a couple of guys who are actually keeping the alphabet alive somewhat. There are even computer fonts available that reproduce the characters. I remember reading a 'secular' article on it at one time and they emphasized the 'separatist' nature of the project. Brigham Young (he was the main force behind the alphabet which was devised by a English convert named George Wyatt) supposedly was going to make it so that all State of Deseret discourse (meeting notes, the newspaper etc.) would be inaccesible to gentiles. How much that is true I don't know, but it's a fascinating idea that immediately captivated me. A paper written by my institute teacher at Diablo Valley College (he's like one of two or three guys who did major research on it) focuses more on its use to help Second Language Learners, but who knows what iconoclastic ideas were behind its adoption. On the whole, however, the Saints just never got into it. ~~William Morris, who has read too much Borges and Kafka so the idea of forgotten alphabets obsesses him a little too much and find its way into his writing. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 25 Jan 2001 19:17:50 -0700 > It seems to me that I read in an article in the Ensign quite a few years ago > that the unique pronunciation endemic to Utah resulted from attempts to > create a different sort of alphabet--to standardize on "the language of > Deseret" or some such thing. Does anyone else remember references to a new > alphabet? The "new" alphabet was a real phenomenon, and is still probably available a lot of places. There is a little area of the childrens' section at the Church History Museum in Salt Lake where the alphabet is displayed on a chalkboard in a little "schoolroom." I think they have handouts of it there to give to the children passing through. It's influence on present day Utah accents was being discussed in various classes at BYU in the (gulp) mid 70's when I was there. When you consider that for nearly half a century, Utah embraced an influx of emmigrants from all over Europe bringing with them their various languages and settling in such a concentrated manner, it's a wonder the local dialect isn't more affected. There was, of course, emmigration occurring all over the country during that time, but outside of NYC, I don't know of any place that got such a sustained and lasting per capita influx and from such a variety of places as Utah did. The Deseret Alphabet was supposed to be a unifying remedy for that language problem, but it didn't really catch on. I wonder sometimes what Utah would be like today if it had. (That would make a good piece of speculative LDS fiction, don't you think?) Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Year in Review, Pt. 4 (LDS Web Magazines) Date: 26 Jan 2001 12:20:34 +0900 This is an update of a column I wrote last year reviewing the different Mormon web magazines. I mentioned at the time that the magazine with the most new content every week was Meridian Magazine, but thought that Beliefnet's Mormon page or Harvest Magazine had more potential. Well, so far Meridian continues to outstrip the other two by far in terms of content, and although it prints a lot of dross, there is enough good things to make it the only magazine worthy of a weekly visit. Meridian Magazine (www.meridianmagazine.com) is run by Marnie and Scott Proctor, former editors of This People. Every week there are several new articles posted, and usually there is one worth reading. It has improved significantly in the last few months, but there is still lots of schmaltz and boring material. Mystery writer Anne Perry's monthly snoozer of a column is a good example of that. Meridian does include quite a few short articles on literature, which may be the most appealing to AML-listers. Richard Cracroft has done several columns on his lists of "essential books" for one's library. These have included a lists of essential books on Joseph Smith, other essential Mormon biographies, and the great British and American novels, with commentary. Richard J. Matthews of the BYU religion department also has a column in which he has been reviewing new LDS inspirational and doctrinal books. There are some other general book reviews as well. The most enjoyable read so far is Marvin Payne's column, "Backstage Glances". It sounds like it might be about the theater, but so far they have been mostly about the problem of figuring what to write a column about. Payne indulges (at least here) in the Harlow Clark extended-and-imbedded-parenthetical-comments school of writing, and is pretty funny. I also like Truman Madsen's recent columns on religious topics. Be aware that Meridian also contains a lot of conservative social commentary. It has a constantly updated news bar, with stories and opinions taken largely from what appear to be fundamentalist and conservative news outlets. Anti-UN commentary is especially frequent, not only from the national news stories, but also stories about or by Richard Wilkins, our own home-grown anti-UN activist who has gotten a lot of institutional support from BYU. I have mixed feelings about Wilkins' positions, but I thought his recent Meridian column was totally whacked out. If the International Criminal Court treaty goes through, the Pope might be in danger of arrest for his support of the institution of marriage—Puh-leeze. Dallas Robbins' Harvest Magazine (http://www.geocities.com/cloudhill/) has the potential to be a more serious, interesting magazine, but so far it just hasn't had nearly enough content to keep it on my radar. After a somewhat interesting start early in the year, it went on hiatus for the summer. It came back in August with a fantastically interesting interview of Professor Woodworth of BYU on efforts by his organization towards aiding third world development, and a long defense of humanism by another BYU professor. Since then, however, there has been no new content. Dallas is on AML-list, I believe. Does Harvest have a future, Dallas? (Oh, I just checked the site, and all of the articles have been taken down, with a sign saying that the magazine is on hiatus again.) Beliefnet (http://www.beliefnet.com/index/index_10044.html) is a web magazine with articles and columns about all different kinds of religions. Each religion, including Mormonism, has its own sub-page. Beliefnet started strong early in the year, landing Orson Scott Card as a columnist, and including interesting content by Eugene England and others. In the second half of the year, however, things have pretty much died away. Card contributes a column about every other month, as does historian Jan Shipps, and Linda Hoffman Kimball writes a light essay about every month, and that is about it. A new web magazine has appeared since my first column, called Element: an e-journal of philosophy and theology (http://www.nd.edu/~rpotter/element4.html). Is affiliated with the e-mail list LDS-Phil, and edited by Dennis Potter, a professor at UVSC. It is the web equivalent of a scholarly journal, rather than a magazine. Its first issue is on the nature of God, and includes five articles by scholarly authors, including James E. Faulconer, Blake Ostler, and Eugene England. Only that issue has appeared so far, so we'll see if it sticks around. There is one other area of Mormon web sites that I didn't address before that I'd like to mention this time. That is Mormon news summary magazines. There are two major news magazines of which I am aware. The first is the Church's own LDS Daily news (http://www.lds.org/ldsnews/). Every day it provides brief summaries and web links to newspaper and magazine articles about Mormons and the Church, as well as Church press releases. The service used to be provided by the Infobase LDS-World organization, but now the Church itself does it. Predictably, it avoids any controversial subjects, however. For that, you need to go to Kent Larson's Mormon News page (http://www.mormonstoday.com/index.shtml), which is updated weekly. Larson is more selective in what stories he chooses, and includes negative stories as well as the positive ones, like articles this week about a former Bishop and a missionary who have been arrested on molestation charges, or an earlier series of articles about tensions between the Mormon and non-Mormon communities in Gilbert and other Arizona towns. He also includes stories about Mormon art and literature (which Kent also posts for us on AML-list). He does an excellent job, and I check his site out every week. Both sites have a service where you can sign up to have the news sent to you, daily from the Church-run one, and weekly from Kent's page. [MOD: Slight correction here: Larry Jackson is actually the person who forwards literary/artistic articles from Mormon News to AML-List. Thanks, Larry!] Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 25 Jan 2001 20:39:12 -0700 My question is how these odd pronunciations are to be included in fiction and/or how they would used effectively in fiction and/or to what purpose? Part of the reason I ask is that I tend to weary very quickly of stories that try to faithfully reproduce regional accents by spelling words strangely. At some point it stops being interesting and just gets hard to read. Odd grammatical constructions that use ordinary words don't fatigue me at all, though. Word choice and speech patterns make a far more interesting difference in characters than painstakingly recreating regional accents does. Real character differentiation comes in actions and outlooks, not in accents. Or at least so think I... Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 26 Jan 2001 01:34:11 -0600 Just a few more comments on 1)dialect and 2)dialogue: Dr. William Labov (THE man for dialectology in the U.S.) says that the or/ar swap in Utah has diminished since 1972, when he first started doing studies of it. (Of course, his evidence of this is based on a VERY small sampling, if I may be allowed to point that out from my lowly non-professorial position. But perhaps it is a work in progress.) At any rate, we all have different dialects in the church (remember, over half the church population lives outside the U.S.), but we (in the U.S.) do also sort of see a Utah accent as a "Mormon" accent. [MOD: I'm snipping the remainder of this post and sending it out under a separate subject line.] Rose _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism (was: Mormon Dialogue) Date: 26 Jan 2001 01:03:46 -0700 William Morris wrote: > Of course, the weird thing about the field of Mormon > literary studies is that we have our own traditional > center (Wasatch Front) of literary production, > consumption and publishing, and so weirdly enough, it > is the 'other' (often urban/cosmopolitan)authors who > perhaps feel 'regionalized.' But what this field of > Mormon literature offers (a traditional center with a > large diaspora) As some Mormon authors yearn to be accepted by the New York establishment, the above quote makes me wonder if an alternate route won't prove more effective in the long run. I don't think we're quite used to just how cosmopolitan the Church is becoming--especially those who grew up in Utah and always thought of the Church _as_ Utah (plus "the missionary field," which means "everywhere but Utah"). When I told people while attending BYU that I grew up in Minnesota, they would react in one of two ways: 1. "That must be some experience growing up in the mission field." (My response: "We've had a stake for years in the Twin Cities; we're not the mission field.") 2. "How did you join the church?" (My response: "I was born and raised in the church, doofus. It happens, even in Minnesota." Okay, I didn't add the stuff from "doofus" on. I just thought it.) My point is, we never thought of ourselves in Minnesota as "the mission field." That was reserved for northern Minnesota where they had branches instead of wards and reported to the mission president, not a stake president. Perhaps for someone like me, it's easier to see that the church really isn't Utah plus a mission field. Mormon literature has a vast potential worldwide market out there, already numbering over 10 million. Author Harold Bloom in writing about American religions believes Mormonism will become one of the main dominant religions in America. I think indications already exist that his prediction will come true. I wonder if the time will come when we don't have to hope/wish/pray/beg for New York to accept our literature or our culture. I wonder if the day will come when we will be dictating some publishing trends. Again I point to _God's Army_ as a role model. Dutcher didn't wait around hoping/wishing/praying/begging for Hollywood to accept him. And he did okay. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 26 Jan 2001 03:14:55 -0700 DISORIENTED by Michael Ritchey 1999 Cornerstone Publishing Hard cover, 280 pages $18.95 Get Thee to a Writers Group, Ritchey I wish I had never read this book. I approach this review with greater trepidation than any review I have written. I seriously considered never admitting that I had read _Disoriented_, and not writing any review. But integrity compels me to be honest and forthright with my reactions to any significant LDS book I have read. I would want the same from others when it comes to my writing. I had every reason to want to like this book. I am excited at the prospect of a developing LDS science fiction genre. I very much want Cornerstone Publishing to succeed. I even hope that I might be published by them one day. I consider Richard Hopkins as close to a friend as is possible with the limited association we've had to date. I asked my wife for _Disoriented_ for Christmas, and she obliged. I began reading with anticipation, all ready to enjoy it. But this book should never have been published. Not for any moral reasons. Not for any "faithlessness" toward the Gospel or antagonism toward the Church. Not for any lurid sex scenes or foul language or questionable themes. Author Michael Ritchie simply wasn't ready to have one of his books published yet. Already in his preface to the novel, I sensed there was trouble ahead. "I wanted my main characters to be good and likeable people." he says. "...Do these kind of people actually exist you ask? Of course they do!" When I read that, I asked myself, "Now, why would an author feel compelled to tell his readers that his characters are =91realistic, hones= t they are'?" I soon found out why. Ritchie employs a "by the numbers" characterization throughout the book that conjurs up barely adequate characters to get the plot done. Every major character goes through his obligatory contemplative flashback to fill in his backstory shortly after being introduced. Here is the Returned Missionary of Arrested Development who has immersed himself in his work, but has no love life and feels guilty for not being married. There is the Murderous Villain Abused in Childhood by his mother, whose whole motive in life is now to "make everyone pay fifty dollars every day" (beautifully embossed on the background of the cover art in case you missed the zillions of references in the book itself). Yonder is the Private Investigator Without a Personal Life, who manages to find true love in the end. And the main character, the Inevitable Girlfriend who draws the Returned Missionary of Arrested Development out of his accursed singlehood? Ritchey's handling of her backstory nearly made the book unstartable. He made a classic mistake that many fledgling writers make, but that any competent writers group would have spotted instantly: he took his exciting opening scene with the main character and, rather than introducing us to her and the book with that exciting scene playing out in real time, buried it in a dreadfully dull frame story as a contemplative flashback, with clockwork interruptions to the action so we could be reminded that the present is really the dull scene of flying from Arizona to Dallas. Only the determined reader will wade through the first three pages of frame story to find the scene that should have opened the novel. You know, the scene that actually makes the reader say, "Wow, I want to read more!" Which reminds me. Someone needs to take Ritchey's box of exclamation marks away from him. He keeps spilling them all over his manuscript. But I admit, the flashback-that-should-have-opened-the-book was intriguing, and made me want to read on. In the next section, we're introduced to the Returned Missionary of Arrested Development, who also spoonfeeds us his backstory in a contemplative flashback, so we know up front What He's About. By now I'm recognizing the characterization pattern here, sighing, and telling myself, "Okay, mainstream science fiction started out in the =91Golden Age' with lots of interesting ideas, action, and scientific mysteries, but with pedestrian characterization. I guess I can live with that again as LDS science fiction tries to jumpstart itself." And the action in this section delivered, once you waded through the backstory. The Murderous Villain Abused in Childhood stalks the Returned Missionary of Arrested Development, kills the wrong guy, burns down the building where all this is happening, and barely escapes the police so he can continue to threaten the protagonists in chapters to come. Exciting stuff. (Watch for the Villain's bacsktory in an upcoming chapter, delivered to us whole-cloth in a flashback.) The mystery of this science fiction story is why the environment of the Earth is deteriorating in inexplicable ways. (Thank heavens it didn't turn out to be gobal warming or the ozone layer this time.) The science fictional premise is that particles of matter have a sort of intelligence to them, and the Returned Missionary has figured out, at least in theory, how to manipulate matter at the most basic level by "disorienting" the intelligence of the matter so it can be controlled. Any Mormon worth his salt will see the origin of this premise, and perhaps most Mormons will buy the premise as a result. But everyone else will raise a skeptical eyebrow, saying, "Oh yeah?" Desperately needed feedback number two from the competent writers group: you didn't make your science fictional premise plausible enough. But the action and the mystery kept me reading as I endured marionette-style behavior from the characters (Returned Missionary needs to say this; Inevitable Girlfriend needs to do that). I half-expected to look up and see John Cusack's character from _Being John Malkovich_ pulling the strings. But the book was good enough, all the way up until Returned Missionary gives his life to save Inevitable Girlfriend--now his wife--from Murderous Villain in a wonderfully flashy, science-fictional way. Then the book gets BAD! "Holy cow!" I told myself. "He's killed off the protagonist already. What's he going to do now, follow him into the spirit world? (Snicker.)" Yep. He meets his father and receives the mission call to end all mission calls (save the whole world). One of those "You're needed for a mission in the spirit world" kinds of deaths, you see. "But Father," he pines, "I want to be with my wife. Can't you arrange things so I can be with her again?" "Already have," says Father. And here we come face to face with desperately needed feedback number three: everything's too easy in this novel. Practically every crisis Ritchey generates in his plot is resolved in the next paragraph or two. Returned Missionary wants to go back to his wife? Voila! He goes. Inevitable Girlfriend needs to be converted to Mormonism so Returned Missionary can marry her in good conscience? Abracadabra! She already believes most of he concepts of LDS theology, and becomes the ultimate Golden Contact. Inevitable Girlfriend's family needs to believe that her dead husband has returned from the dead as a disembodied spirit that only she can see and hear, and honest! she's not crazy? Presto chango! They're all inclined to believe that sort of thing anyway, and eat it up. Oh, and somewhere along the way in the spirit world scene, most of the science fiction mystery is cleared up, and now all the mystery that's left is what corrupt government official did what. (Of course it's corrupt government officials. Isn't it always?) In other words, the main thing that kept me reading disappears in chapter 8 of a sixteen-chapter book. Desperately needed feedback number four: keep escalating your tension, don't defuse it. >From then on, I read out of a sense of duty. Nothing worked for me; nothing was believable. The characters were cardboard and murkily defined. The dialog was often embarrassing. Things bothered me that I probably wouldn't have even noticed had I been enjoying the book. Scenes that were supposed to affect me emotionally only evoked snide comments from me a la _Mystery Science Theater 3000_. The tragic thing is, the novel could have worked, if Ritchey knew how to write. In this review, I've only hit the highlights of the flaws in this novel. In truth, I wanted to sit down with the manuscript and mark up page after page with comments--I wanted to be in Ritchey's writers group critiquing the thing. Every page would have bled with red markings by the time I was finished. Ritchey is in desperate need of feedback from a good writers group. He needs to learn how to jump right into the action from the first sentence, weaving in the characterization as he goes. He should be forbidden to utilize flashbacks until he has learned his craft. He needs to learn how to write effective dialog, how to escalate tension without losing it, how to nurture multifaceted characters, how to make speculative premises sound plausible, how to write about spiritual things without sounding hokey, how to avoid point-of-view violations, and umpteen other skills of an accomplished writer. He _can_ learn these things--he has the basic talent mulling around waiting for development. There were lots of moments peppered throughout the tedious writing that could have shined if not ensconced in dreck. Someone just needs to tell Ritchey he's got more developing to do. Cornerstone issued Michael Ritchey his journeyman papers long before he completed his apprenticeship. _Disoriented_ was not ready to be published. Ritchey, find a good writers group and workshop your next manuscript through them. I predict you'll come out the other end an author worthy of publication. --=20 D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths=20 Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: [AML] BARTHOLOMEW, _The White Dove_ Date: 26 Jan 2001 01:34:11 -0600 Does anyone know if a YA writer named Lois Thompson Bartholomew is LDS? I picked up a book called The White Dove off the new book shelf today (publ. 200, Houghton Mifflin Company), and several things in it make me think maybe she is. It's a first novel, so she's probably not known in many circles. The book is about a girl whose king father abdicated in order to establish a democracy, but the democracy was later overthrown by a group of "royalists" (term mentioned several times in dialogue, reminiscent of "king men") and she was captured. The book is about her escape back to the rallying democrats. The guy who establishes himself as king is named Comnor (Com for short). One of the people the ex-princess ends up staying with on her escape says, "No one will hire me as a governess now. I might teach something subversive like all men are alike before God and no one is better than another, or that each man should work for his own living and not glut himself on the labors of others." Later she says, "It is a great celebration...There will be games, dancing and feasting. All free of course--paid for by the taxes Com has placed on us." The characters also do things like say a prayer at a burial and other times. None of the things I mentioned would stand out alone, but collectively (yes, in both dialogue and narration), they seem to sound "Mormon" to me. Am I crazy? Does anyone know anything about this author? Rose _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Year in Review, Pt. 4 (LDS Web Magazines) Date: 26 Jan 2001 09:03:35 -0700 on 1/25/01 8:20 PM, Andrew Hall at andrewrhall@hotmail.com wrote: > Meridian Magazine (www.meridianmagazine.com) is run by Marnie and Scott > Proctor, former editors of This People. Scot and Maurine Proctor ;-) Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 26 Jan 2001 09:20:34 -0700 List member Morgan Adair has the nameplate to his office door at Novell written in the Deseret Alphabet. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: Re: [AML] BARTHOLOMEW, _The White Dove_ Date: 26 Jan 2001 09:26:25 -0700 >>> "Rose Green" 01/26 12:34 AM >>> Does anyone know if a YA writer named Lois Thompson Bartholomew is LDS? = =20 Yes, she is. I met her at a booksigning she did at BYU. I don't know = anything more about her--except I told her about AML, so she may be = listening. Tyler Moulton - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: [AML] Deseret Alphabet (was: Mormon Dialogue) Date: 26 Jan 2001 09:33:12 -0700 William Morris wrote: > There's more to be had out there---a google search > will bring up links to a couple of guys who are > actually keeping the alphabet alive somewhat. There > are even computer fonts available that reproduce the > characters. If anyone is interested in seeing what the alphabet looked like, here's a page featuring the characters and describing the sound used for each: http://people.delphi.com/deseret/home/a-a-lett.htm --Mike South [MOD: Apologies for not renaming this portion of this thread sooner. If we were still doing the archives manually, I'd be going in and renaming the messages that have already gone out on this topic. Sorry.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 26 Jan 2001 10:00:29 -0700 Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_. Review by D. Michael Martindale. Just guessing, but I think this book wasn't D. Michael's cup of tea. :-) That's too bad, but we've gotten favorable feedback on it from most quarters. Personally, I felt the plusses of the story outweighed its minuses. It has a fascinating plot (which you could sense from D. Michael's review), it moves well for the most part and it has some very inspiring moments. I also thought the villain was a fascinating character, quite apart from his backstory. Others who have reviewed it for us privately have said that they found the storyline so fascinating it made up for the writing flaws. The best reviews we've gotten on it, though, have come from the YA audience. That has been interesting. For those who are interested in the publishing process, we were entirely aware of the problems D. Michael pointed out. If we had had more time to edit the book before we had to get it in print, perhaps we could have worked some of them out, but on the whole, the feeling was that it worked best the way it was, for that particular author anyway. We're anxious to do better stuff, though. (BTW, we think Eric Samuelsen's and Linda Adams' books were particularly good examples of "better stuff.") The toughest thing I've had to do here is to get and train good editors. Everybody wants to be too nice. They aren't willing to get in and really help the author improve his story (assuming they could even figure out what it was about a story that needs improvement). So, D. Michael, how'd you like to come and do some editing for us? That was a very insightful review! Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 26 Jan 2001 12:45:30 -0500 Rose Green wrote: > Another distinguishing feature of the Utah accent to me (I was born in NJ > and grew up in Arkansas, by the way), is a very strongly pronounced "r." Rose's entry above reminds me of a time I was chatting with a fellow BYU undergrad, lounging around between classes in the HFAC. I, too, was raised (and born) in Arkansas and my accent is nearly identical with W.J. Clinton's, although in 1980 nobody had heard, or heard of him. The girl told me that I spoke English very well for a foreigner. Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: Re:[AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 26 Jan 2001 11:52:56 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: >DISORIENTED >by Michael Ritchey >1999 Cornerstone Publishing >Hard cover, 280 pages >$18.95 > > > Get Thee to a Writers Group, Ritchey > >I wish I had never read this book. I approach this review with greater >trepidation than any review I have written. I seriously considered never >admitting that I had read _Disoriented_, and not writing any review. But >integrity compels me to be honest and forthright with my reactions to >any significant LDS book I have read. I would want the same from others >when it comes to my writing. [..snip..] >D. Michael Martindale >dmichael@wwno.com Boy, Michael, I get the feeling that you didn't like this book! ;) I am very proud to say that _Disoriented_ was one of the best LDS genre novels that I have read thus far. Let me caveat that with the statement that I did think the characters were a shallow. But this isn't a story where the character need to change, or discover the purpose of life, or anything like that. It is an action/adventure story. It's a plot driven story and not character based -- like all of the James Bond movies. The characters are just the medium to tell the story. Who can deny that James Bond is nothing but a very shallow character? But I like James Bond movies. This novel made me think, it kept me entertained, and I _really_ liked it, throughout the entire book, not just parts of it. I must say that I predicted the ending and didn't really like how it turned out, but it was still good. I didn't love the book, but I did like it very much. It was a good read and I'd proudly recommend it. My father- and mother-in-law and sister-in-law all read it as well and couldn't put it down. There were a few things that bothered me, tho, like a .38 auto gun, where all .38's except a few rare ones are revolvers, but I could look past a few of these problems without losing too much of my suspension of disbelief. If Michael's review discouraged anyone from wanting to purchase this novel, then take courage in my recommendation. Read it for yourself and see. In contrast to Michael's words, I'm GLAD that I read this book! Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 26 Jan 2001 10:07:30 -0800 At 03:14 AM 1/26/2001 -0700, you wrote: >DISORIENTED >by Michael Ritchey >1999 Cornerstone Publishing >Hard cover, 280 pages >$18.95 > > > Get Thee to a Writers Group, Ritchey >Which reminds me. Someone needs to take Ritchey's box of exclamation >marks away from him. He keeps spilling them all over his manuscript. I very much appreciate this review. I came close to purchasing this book. I may hold off having read your summary. The comment above should be laminated. I'm reading (or rather, plodding through) a book by a man named Newell titled "World History for Latter-day Saints -- Vol. 1." He also fills his book with exclamation points, and clearly doesn't realize how distracting they are. When I'm finally through with the book, I'll post a review. It's a real oddity, and merits some comment. --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] BARTHOLOMEW, _The White Dove_ Date: 26 Jan 2001 12:10:31 -0700 Here's the news article that ran on AML-List last August when the book came out: [From Mormon-News] New LDS Writer's Character Relies on God PROVO, UTAH -- Lois Thomas Bartholomew's book, "The White Dove," has everything "Harry Potter" does not: a character who relies on her faith in God. The inspiration for Bartholomew's heroine, Tasha, came from a dream she had one night. "I had a dream about a woman and a girl running from someone and hiding in a shed," Bartholomew said. Tasha is a princess who watches her father abdicate his throne for the sake of democracy. Tasha's father is threatened by Comnor, a man who overthrows the people's elected leader, Marko. Tasha and her small group of followers flee King Comnor and struggle to rejoin Marko. "It is an exciting book. I am a mother, so I am often tired. I think, 'I will read just a few pages.' Then I start reading and I can't put it down," said Bartholomew's daughter-in-law Amy. The book was written with a theme for a national young audience of readers with themes that promote Bartholomew's Mormon's beliefs. "Being a Mormon, my mother has put some underlining themes that you don't see in other books for children, like a faith in God," Ruth Bartholomew said. "There are certain things worth sacrificing for: family, your country and freedom," Lois Bartholomew said. "The White Dove" is Bartholomew's first published novel. She is working on a sequel to "The White Dove." There are also plans for a boy's adventure book. "It is important for BYU graduates and LDS authors to publish to national audiences. We have a responsibility to do good in the world," Lois Bartholomew said. Source: Local writes her own children's book BYU NewsNet 12Aug00 A2 http://newsnet.byu.edu/show_story.cfm?number=10622&year=current By Kami Cook: NewsNet Staff Writer >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mcnandon" Subject: [AML] RE: Mormon Dialogue Date: 02 Jan 2001 20:51:24 -0700 Having been railed on and thoroughly chastised for _coming into an area and making fun of the way people talk_ may I make a final comment in my defense. I was born and raised in *this area* and I attended college at BYU, Utah State and Weber State. People choose the way they talk. My friend from England has an elegant English accent that she chooses not to use. Another friend moved to Texas for one year and picked up a Texas accent that she continues to use 20 years later. My children and I lived in Texas for 25 years and although we love Texas and consider ourselves Texans, we choose not to speak with a Texas accent. I don't care how people speak, except when it applies to theater. I believe in *excellence in theater* and it is annoying to me to see someone on stage portraying a well-educated, cosmopolitan person using their regional accent. It makes me feel that they are not giving their best effort. Yes, this is my problem and since I am a theatre-goer and an actor, I must deal with it. I support all theater and I will continue to do so, but I can't help but wish it was different. Nan P. McCulloch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] BARTHOLOMEW, _The White Dove_ Date: 26 Jan 2001 13:07:18 -0700 Will someone please inform us as to who the publisher is? Thanks much. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism (was: Mormon Dialogue) Date: 26 Jan 2001 13:17:39 -0700 I loved to hear Michael say maybe the time will come when we don't have to hope/wish/pray/beg for New York to accept our literature or our culture. Exactly! I'm assuming the time has already come. I know I've butted heads with New York and they are a foreign country. They just CAN'T publish our stuff--they would be laughed off. I know some reviews laughed at God's Army. Oh well. It was great, and we Mormons are more numerous now. My goal in life is to produce our stuff and make it REALLY GOOD. Thanks, Michael. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: plus two Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism Date: 26 Jan 2001 12:21:48 -0800 (PST) --- "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > As some Mormon authors yearn to be accepted by the > New York > establishment, the above quote makes me wonder if an > alternate route > won't prove more effective in the long run. I don't > think we're quite > used to just how cosmopolitan the Church is > becoming--especially those > who grew up in Utah and always thought of the Church > _as_ Utah (plus > "the missionary field," which means "everywhere but > Utah"). ---And--- > I wonder if the time will come when we don't have to > hope/wish/pray/beg > for New York to accept our literature or our > culture. I wonder if the > day will come when we will be dictating some > publishing trends. Again I > point to _God's Army_ as a role model. Dutcher > didn't wait around > hoping/wishing/praying/begging for Hollywood to > accept him. And he did > okay. I think that D. Michael has really hit on something that I only hinted at----the future strength of Mormon literature (and probably all LDS artistic production) should lie in the fact that the combination of regionalism (based on Mormonism as a religious culture) and cosmopolitanism (based on the wide range of local cultures where Mormons are to be found) can create a fascinating hybrid effect----a wide field for artistic production, grounded in Mormon history, theology and cultural practice but reflective of the Mormon experience in its various locales (Minnesota, Romania, Oakland). This wide field has been very fruitful for LDS science fiction, and I think that there is evidence that it is providing excellent fodder for literary fiction as well. Although I am not the best judge of this since my exposure is limited---it remains a problem being out on the West Coast. [Even though there is a significant Mormon population in the Bay Area, access to works remains difficult, especially if you can't afford to buy a lot of books---I'd love to create a regional library of Mormon literature based near the Oakland temple. Yes, I know Inter-Library Loan is available, but it can be unwieldy and the fines often pile up because I forget due dates.] Of course, for things to really take off, the market for LDS publishers needs to continue to mature and grow. This is where publication like _Irreantum_ come in. For growth, you need exposure, and for exposure you need venues that feed readers into specific titles (i.e. reviews, author profiles etc.) My family members are avid, sophisticated readers who have stayed away from the Mormon fiction market because they still see it as producing inferior product. However, when I saw them over the holidays, I came bearing the latest issue of _Irreantum_ in hand and my parents and brothers and sisters all looked at it rather hungrily. They all especially wanted to read the Richard Dutcher interview (even though none of them had seen the film they had all heard of it and wanted to see what he had to say). So to get back to what D. Michael mentioned in his post, I too think that the 'alternative' route is a good one, and I'm seeing more and more signs that it is possible. Now I just hope that it can be steadily sustained on all ends (production, publishing, distribution, review and news) for a while. ~~William Morris, who is right now working at University PR, so while this isn't my preferred career track, who knows, I could become the first Mormon literary super agent. Watch me spin, baby! Press release and book tour, anyone? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 26 Jan 2001 10:36:43 -0700 How about: "Thy lusts and passions wither cold, especially since I've grown so old." Roy Schmidt HA! Love it. Maybe you should just go ahead and finish the poem, Roy. Or maybe that does finish it. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Re: Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 26 Jan 2001 13:54:05 -0700 I've not read the book, and having read D. Michael's review, I don't intend to. Let me tell you why. Sure, the book may have a nice plot, it's characters need not to well-drawn (My own Moroni Smith isn't the deepest character in LDS fiction). But there are certain truths in regards to writing modern fiction that only the greats can break and not pay the price. One of those is the sparse use of exclamation points. Another is the overuse (or the use at all) of flashbacks. Every book on writing I've ever read seems to agree that a writer who has to resort to flashbacks isn't telling his story from the right starting point. And explanation points (like the too often use of adverbs) is a glaring mark of amateurishness. The existence of these two elements alone tells me that, one, the author is too new and inexperienced for my time. His story may be marvelous despite all that; he may be a genuis who, like Charles Dickens, doesn't understand grammar or punctuation but whose story-telling skills are worth the clunky prose. He may have found a way, in the face of the hundreds of failed examples preceding him, to use extensive flashbacks to his advantage. If so, I'll wait for other reviewers and perhaps history to confirm that fact and then I'll read the novel. At this point, I'm not willing to invest the money in a book that shows such signs of being so amateurish. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] "The Big KSL Holiday Broadcast" (Musical) Date: 26 Jan 2001 14:40:37 -0800 (PST) (Sorry this review is belated--but here it is before January ends, at least:-) I was only vaguely aware of the Provo Theatre Company when I received as a gift tickets to the Christmas show "The Big KSL Holiday Broadcast: A Musical Salute to the Golden Age of Radio (it ran from Nov. 24-Dec. 30.) They have a nice little theater in a renovated old church in downtown Provo. The revue was presented as a sort of "Prarie Home Companion"-ish radio broadcast from church-owned Salt Lake City station KSL-AM that spanned the years from the stock market crash to the end of the Second World War. The lively music of the era alternated with comedy bits and news items from that time. The non-musical material was compiled by the director, Tim Threlfall, and Dean Hughes, who should be very familiar with the subject because of his LDS-themed novels dealing with the war. It was a very enjoyable evening of theater with a thoroughly professional cast. I mean it as a compliment when I say it was the most perfect old-fashioned "roadshow"-type presentation I've seen in a long time. The standout cast members were Daniel Law, (very funny as Jack Benny and Charlie McCarthy), and pretty Amy Ashworth, who delivered the sizzling tune "Hit Me With a Hot Note and Watch Me Bounce." One particularly amusing moment came when the news reported that the Democrats once again dominated the local elections, especially in Utah County (although some in the audience didn't seem to find this very funny--a reminder of how much some things change.) My immediate reaction to much of this was to reflect how ephemeral popular culture is. Who now remembers Fibber McGee and Molly, Lum and Abner, or even Jack Benny and Will Rogers? Fifty years from now our grandchildren will shake their heads in incomprehension at the mention of Dave Letterman or Jay Leno. Visiting the past must be like landing on the surface of the moon: alien, but in some ways strangely familiar. The most jarring "alien" thing about the evening was how innocent it all was. Remember, these 16 years were the worst in American history (if you don't count the Civil War.) And yet the comedy and music reflect only in the most oblique way the anguish the country was going through. But that is a recurring theme in human nature--remember the good, forget the bad. I'm sure it rings true in conservative Utah County. From now on I will keep an eye open for future productions from Provo Theatre Company. It may be their next shows won't be so conservative--in the past they put on David Mamet's "Oleanna." Mamet in Provo--now that would have been something to see. ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 26 Jan 2001 15:11:28 -0800 (PST) I attended the Saturday night performace and was quite impressed. Eric's work featured subjects and language that I'm sure haven't been seen much on BYU stages, and that's all to the good. The cast was first-rate; the production easily compared to anything put on at the U. of Utah's experimental Babcock Theater (although I doubt Eric's ethically challenging play will soon be produced there, because of its perceived politics. Eric calls himself a liberal, but I would classify this play as part of the "consevative avante-garde"--David Lynch and Tom Wolfe also produce stylistically adventerous work that has a morally tough, even traditional core.) "What Really Happened" does echo a little of Mamet and Labute, although Samuelson has a more observable sense of humor. In the discussion afterwards, he indicated he might take out some of the laughs in the first act. I think this would be a mistake. We need to begin to identify early on with the characters so we can be sucker-punched in the second act by their despicable acts. Readers of this list will know that Eric is a very funny guy; what was interesting to me was the deeply serious uses to which he puts his comedy. I really hope this play gets a larger audience; I also hope this is the beginning of an encouraging trend of artistic courage at BYU. ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 23 Jan 2001 16:00:23 -0700 Linda asked: >Can I read it? I'd be happy to make this available on the List, if no one objects. Or I = could just email it to Linda, if you don't mind a hundred page file = showing up. What do y'all think? Eric Samuelsen [MOD: I'm willing to put it up on the List if there's interest in using this as a jumping-off point for discussing artistic trends among Mormon artists, a la R. W. Rasband's recent post. Or people can e-mail Eric individually for a copy, although he informs me that he'll be out of town for a week. As a general rule, we've tried to keep AML-List from becoming either a critique group for works in progress or a publication outlet for creative work--not because those things are negative in the least, but because they're not central to the purpose of the List as currently constituted, and could easily change the tenor of the List. However, we do occasionally allow posting of creative works either as a prompt for discussion (not critique), as an illustration, or as an aside... Anyway, I'm willing to do it this time if there's interest, or we can handle it the other way and let people contact Eric directly.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Turk325@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 26 Jan 2001 18:16:08 EST In a message dated 1/26/01 4:13:46 PM, glennsj@inet-1.com writes: << How about: "Thy lusts and passions wither cold, especially since I've grown so old." Roy Schmidt HA! Love it. Maybe you should just go ahead and finish the poem, Roy. Or maybe that does finish it. >> Could we drop the "so" to maintain the meter? "Thy lusts and passions wither cold, especially since I've grown old." Kurt. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 26 Jan 2001 16:24:24 -0700 Can't resist this one. I don't remember my earliest attempts (I've been writing since I can remember), but I know my first attempted novel was in either first or second grade and titled, "Mean Marvin the Mouse," about a mouse who pulled the girls' (girl mice) hair at school. In third grade I turned to helping hamsters escape in "Richmond's Runaways." Almost everything was anthropomorphic back then. The first peek into successul was a non-fiction book I wrote when I was eleven called, "Helpful Hints for Kids." My mother told Ardeth Kapp about it, gave it to her, and Deseret Book actually considered publishing it. (I was told later they decided not to because they didn't think it had enough of an audience, which they probably didn't back then.) Instead, The Friend magazine decided to do a "Friend to Friend" piece on me and my book. We were living in Finland at the time, but we came home the month it came out, so the headline wasn't accurate when it said, "Meet Annette of Helsinki, Finland." Fun stuff. Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 26 Jan 2001 16:20:47 -0700 > People choose the way they talk. This is an interestin' idea. I'm not sure it works all the time, though. Just today I noticed that I was leavin' the final "g's" off the verbs I was usin'. That's the way I grew up talkin', and I hate it, but sometimes it sneaks up on me. I think it makes me sound like a hick, but there it is. I notice that my grandsons, born and raised in Utah, come down so hard on that final "g" that it sounds almost like a "k"; while I'm goin' somewhere, they are goink somewhere else. I know that one's childhood accent is supposed to return under stress, but if you have a suggestion for doin' away with those old habits, I'd be pleased to hear about it. I'd also like to knaow haow to stop raollin' those vaowels araound and araound in my maouth before I let 'em come aout. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism Date: 26 Jan 2001 16:27:15 -0700 This comment makes me think of that Western movie in which Gene Wilder was a Polish rabbi who came to the American west to marry, and Harrison Ford was the outlaw who befriended him. Wilder's rabbi found himself in an alien culture that bewildered him, but the strength of his faith carried him through. And when he reached the Jewish community, he joined with the people there who shared his beliefs and his cultural heritage, symbolized by the wedding ceremony with the crushed wineglass and everything. (I do find it hard to imagine marrying Gene Wilder when Harrison Ford is standing right there, but it was a movie. . . . .) I can envision something like that with a Mormon protagonist. Not sure I could write it, though. barbara hume >I think that D. Michael has really hit on something >that I only hinted at----the future strength of Mormon >literature (and probably all LDS artistic production) >should lie in the fact that the combination of >regionalism (based on Mormonism as a religious >culture) and cosmopolitanism (based on the wide range >of local cultures where Mormons are to be found) can >create a fascinating hybrid effect----a wide field for >artistic production, grounded in Mormon history, >theology and cultural practice but reflective of the >Mormon experience in its various locales (Minnesota, >Romania, Oakland). - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 26 Jan 2001 16:51:14 -0700 On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:00:23 -0700, Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: >Linda asked: > >>Can I read it? > >I'd be happy to make this available on the List, if no one objects. Or = I could just email it to Linda, if you don't mind a hundred page file = showing up. What do y'all think? > >Eric Samuelsen > >[MOD: I'm willing to put it up on the List if there's interest in using = this=20 >as a jumping-off point for discussing artistic trends among Mormon = artists,=20 >a la R. W. Rasband's recent post. Or people can e-mail Eric individually= for=20 >a copy, although he informs me that he'll be out of town for a week.=20 > As a general rule, we've tried to keep AML-List from becoming either a=20 >critique group for works in progress or a publication outlet for = creative=20 >work--not because those things are negative in the least, but because=20 >they're not central to the purpose of the List as currently constituted,= and=20 >could easily change the tenor of the List. However, we do occasionally = allow=20 >posting of creative works either as a prompt for discussion (not = critique),=20 >as an illustration, or as an aside... Anyway, I'm willing to do it this = time=20 >if there's interest, or we can handle it the other way and let people=20 >contact Eric directly.] We've done this before with a play (Gadianton) for the list to read. I enjoy the ensuing discussions very much and would love to process Eric's = new work. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 26 Jan 2001 16:52:40 -0700 Sorry, but most of my poetic endeavors begin with something like: There was a young girl from Nantucket. I'll leave the serious stuff to Ogden Nash. Roy >>> Sharlee Glenn 01/26/01 10:36AM >>> How about: "Thy lusts and passions wither cold, especially since I've grown so old." Roy Schmidt HA! Love it. Maybe you should just go ahead and finish the poem, Roy. Or maybe that does finish it. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] BARTHOLOMEW, _The White Dove_ Date: 26 Jan 2001 16:49:35 -0700 On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:07:18 -0700, Brown wrote: >Will someone please inform us as to who the publisher is? Thanks much. Houghton Mifflin Co. Melissa Proffitt [MOD: Thanks to others as well who sent this information.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] SLOVER, _Joyful Noise_ Date: 26 Jan 2001 15:58:33 -0800 (PST) I saw this production at Pioneer Memorial Theater, the University Of Utah's professional company. It ran from Nov. 29 to Dec. 16. What a witty, inspiring play this is! Even if you don't love Handel's "Messiah" (which I do) you will get a kick out of it. Slover's curmudgeonly composer is a funny, touching, marvelous creation. He makes up for his worst moments by his breadth of vision (would that we all could do the same.) This play excells at portraying the sheer *effect* music has: when Mrs. Cibber sings (acapella) the "Coventry Carol" when auditioning for Handel, you could hear a pin drop in the theater. It's a magical moment. The play is also a bracing call for artistic freedom; to think that many at the time thought setting scripture to "popular" music was blasphemous, even obscene is to examine how changable our notions of propriety are. Slover also reminds us that love and forgiveness are as real as hatred and contention. In less sure hands the ending would seem sentimental; but the reconciliation of the characters here seems earned. I hope someday everyone gets an opportunity to see this on a stage. (I remember seeing Tim Slover in student productions at BYU; his dad also taught one of the best political science courses I took there. He was a lonely Democrat on that faculty:-) ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 26 Jan 2001 17:03:03 -0700 On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:20:47 -0700, Barbara R. Hume wrote: >> People choose the way they talk.=20 > >This is an interestin' idea. I'm not sure it works all the time, = though. Barbara, you do NOT talk this way :) I think it's uncommon for people to be able to turn off their = dialects--for one thing, you have to be aware of the difference between your speech and other regions' dialects. But it is possible. I also left Texas without = a drawl, though it's always bugged me that I can't reproduce the dialect at all (it's not what you hear on TV). But I think my maintaining a = standard "neutral" accent came from my involvement with the drama program; I had = an incentive to sound different and less, um, rural. My sister, six years younger than I, picked up a Texas accent immediately so she could blend = in. There's a lot of factors that affect the way we talk. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 26 Jan 2001 18:52:51 -0700 Okay, hold on now! It's not that full of exclamation points! :-) Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 26 Jan 2001 19:01:31 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 1:54 PM > I've not read the book, and having read D. Michael's review, I don't > intend to. Actually, I think Thom would enjoy the book a lot more than D. Michael did. (Hey Thom. Let's hope D. Michael doesn't review _Moroni Smith_.) :-) Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 26 Jan 2001 21:46:07 -0600 >Rose's entry above reminds me of a time I was chatting with a fellow BYU >undergrad, lounging around between classes in the HFAC. I, too, was raised >(and >born) in Arkansas and my accent is nearly identical with W.J. Clinton's, >although in 1980 nobody had heard, or heard of him. > >The girl told me that I spoke English very well for a foreigner. > >Tony Markham Glad to know I'm not the only "foreigner" on the list! Rose _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: [AML] Harvest Magazine (was: Year in Review, Pt. 4) Date: 26 Jan 2001 23:35:35 -0600 Andrew Hall wrote: "Dallas Robbins' Harvest Magazine (http://www.geocities.com/cloudhill/) has the potential to be a more serious, interesting magazine, but so far it just hasn't had nearly enough content to keep it on my radar. After a somewhat interesting start early in the year, it went on hiatus for the summer. It came back in August with a fantastically interesting interview of Professor Woodworth of BYU on efforts by his organization towards aiding third world development, and a long defense of humanism by another BYU professor. Since then, however, there has been no new content. Dallas is on AML-list, I believe. Does Harvest have a future, Dallas? (Oh, I just checked the site, and all of the articles have been taken down, with a sign saying that the magazine is on hiatus again.)" Andrew, Thanks for noticing my little magazine. As you have already seen, Harvest has had a rocky ride over the past year. Due to lack of time and help, I have put Harvest on hold for an indefinate time period. I have had a specific editorial vision for Harvest that has only been partially realized on the web; and so I believe the only way Harvest will continue in the future is in a print version. I don't know when that will happen, or even if it will. So now I am going to focus on my own writing and sometime in the near future I'll be making more concrete plans for Harvest. Dallas Robbins cloudhill@hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 27 Jan 2001 00:51:15 -0700 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > It's a terrific story, and will make a wonderful play, I predict. But then my student said to me, "I wonder if I should write this play. It might make the Church look bad." > > That's a very tough issue, isn't it? > But can I lightly pass over her concerns? I don't think so. > But I don't want to pretend that this is an easy, cut and dried issue. It isn't. Then let me pass lightly over, cut, and dry the issue. Yes, she should write it--no question, no hesitation. It doesn't make the church look one miniscule bit bad. It makes the bishop and the grandmother look bad. One bishop and one elderly member are not the church. I've said it many times before, and I guess I'll keep saying it again: our leaders are not perfect, and what in the world makes us think we're doing the church any good by pretending they are? It's called disingenuousness; it's called lack of credibility; it's called lying or self-delusion, depending on who we're being dishonest with. This all seems _very_ cut and dried to me, and if even our most audacious artists like Eric Samuelsen hesitate to speak out against the abuses of power that happen--yes--even in the church of the Lord, what hope have we that abuses will ever be exposed and remedied? Does it really help to build up the kingdom of God to turn a blind eye to abuse of power? Maybe the writers of the four Gospels erred by telling us how Judas Iscariot betrayed Christ. Doesn't that story make the church look bad? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 27 Jan 2001 06:22:15 -0700 >From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) > > > People choose the way they talk. > >This is an interestin' idea. I'm not sure it works all the time, though. > >barbara hume > Sorry, but I would agree that people choose the way they talk, and choose to revert back to earlier speech patterns. My wife consciously lost her heavy accent after emigrating to the US in order to avoid the teasing from her classmates. She has never reverted to the accent, under stress or not. Having lived for the past decade in several non-English speaking countries, we have developed what expats know is an "international" accent. What that means is you speak with no discernible accent in order to be clearly understood. I love it when someone tells me they can't tell where I'm from based on my accent. To me that means I have succeeded in communicating, and not letting any accent get in the way. I would agree with a separate comment that trying to recreate accents in writing is a distraction. Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: Re: [AML] First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 27 Jan 2001 06:23:22 -0700 >From: Turk325@aol.com> > >In a message dated 1/26/01 4:13:46 PM, glennsj@inet-1.com writes: > ><< How about: > >"Thy lusts and passions wither cold, > >especially since I've grown so old."> > >Roy Schmidt > >Could we drop the "so" to maintain the meter? > >"Thy lusts and passions wither cold, > >especially since I've grown old." >> >Kurt. > > Meter is very subjective, sometimes it is clear, sometimes not. The challenge for the poet writing in meter is to make it unmistakably clear. In this poem, one could argue that the meter is okay as originally presented, iambic tetrameter: Thy LUSTS and PASsions WIther COLD, esPECially SINCE i've GROWN so OLD. Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN "Two Headed" in Los Angeles: Los Angeles Times Date: 27 Jan 2001 12:05:52 -0600 [From Mormon-News] "Two Headed" in Los Angeles LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA -- Mormon playwright Julie Jensen's "Two Headed" is being performed in Hollywood's John Anson Ford Theatre through February 25th, giving Los Angeles audiences a chance to see the show, which has previously been presented in Salt Lake City and New York. In yesterday's Los Angeles Times, theater critic Michael Phillips reviewed the play, which explores the effect of polygamy and the Mountain Meadows Massacre on the lives of two women over 40 years. The play's two characters, Hettie and Lavina, are just 10-years-old in the first scene, which occurs just after the massacre. Each of the four succeeding scenes is ten years later than the previous scene, and the play shows the two women maturing, entering polygamous marriages, and struggling to deal both with the massacre and with the difficulties of polygamous families. Phillips says "There's a coiled anger to Jensen's work," and adds that the performance is "a thing of precision and short, sharp conversational shocks." After pointing out that one of the actresses overdoes her part, Phillips also has some criticism for the play, as written, which he says has "too much of the savage truth-teller in Lavinia." He also adds that the way Jensen points out the contrasts between her characters "awfully neatly and clearly" robs the play and its story "of a layer of myster." But, Phillips hastens to add, "Two Headed" has other things going for it. Source: A Journey Across 40 Years of Friendship Los Angeles Times 23Jan01 A2 http://www.latimes.com:80/print/calendar/20010123/t000006448.html By Michael Phillips: Times Theater Critic >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: Mormon Dialogue Date: 27 Jan 2001 12:40:17 -0600 No, no, no! Y'all is singular. You'all is plural. Don'tcha know? (Leastways herein' it is.) :-> Larry Jackson _______________ Ronn Blankenship: >Jim Cobabe: > And of course, "y'all" is ubiquitous. What is really amusing is to hear a Yankee use "y'all" when talking to _one_ person. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: Mormon Dialogue Date: 27 Jan 2001 12:39:25 -0600 I watched a young speller in another bee agonize over the spelling of a word the pronouncer had properly pronounced with the schwa sound. The speller know that the letter in question was either an "a" or an "e", but wasn't sure which. He asked that the word be repeated. He asked for the definition of the word. He asked that the word be used in a sentence. All of these requests were allowable under the rules of the spelling bee. The lady was very classy and savvy and pronounced the word identically each time. After the young speller had exhaused all of his attempts to determine the proper spelling from the pronunciation, she made it very clear she know what he was trying to do by saying, "the proper pronunciation of this word includes the schwa sound. You will have to decide whether the letter is an "a" or an "e". Please spell the word." He guessed "a". I remember thinking I would have spelled the word with an "e". He got it right. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 27 Jan 2001 13:22:29 -0800 (PST) The Deseret News reports today (Jan. 27) that Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah regrets his appearance in the new movie "Traffic" because of its vivid depictions of violence and drug abuse. The article can be found online at http://www.deseretnews.com I don't think Hatch has anything to apologize for, but he may be trying to placate his more conservative constituents. ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: Dealing with Mormon History Date: 27 Jan 2001 12:03:06 -0600 I also think she should write the story. But, it is very difficult to write this story without knowing what happened in the disciplinary councils, especially the third one. If in fact the father/bishop was wrongfully excommunicated, the story becomes one of another weak leader/stake president caving in to the grandmother. If the excommunication was warranted, the story becomes one of a father/bishop and presumably a very good man covering up a wrongdoing while serving in a leadership position, agonizing over it and finally coming to grips with it and desiring to repent. Will the Church be hurt? In the first case, some, but the truth is still there that mistakes can be made if the council is not properly held. This responsibility lies squarley at the feet of the presiding officer, and the perception that the decision is wrong causes a questioning of the inspiration of our leaders, who are not perfect. In the latter case, I see no harm to the Church. I suppose this would fall into the "justice is finally done" category. But, there may well be some reaction on the part of the family. In my experience, the decisions of councils are nearly always correct. The problem lies in the fact that members of the council are not at liberty to discuss the details, and the individual member is often not willing to reveal the truth, either. So the member's friends sometimes feel he/she was dealt with wrongfully. The story will be better told if she is able to learn from her father what truly happened. That answer, if found, will also determine how difficult it will be for her to tell the tale. In either event, a large part of her story might be how she personally copes with the situation, whichever it turns out to be. Larry Jackson _______________ Eric Samuelsen: ... a student ... wants to write a play about her family. Her father ... bishop ... was excommunicated. And the gossip wasn't true--it wasn't ever true. Or so says my student, ... It's a terrific story, ... But then my student said to me, "I wonder if I should write this play. It might make the Church look bad." I think it could become a wonderful cautionary tale, and also a play that's very important for a young woman struggling with her own issues. The part of me that says she should write it won, ... ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: Year in Review, Pt. 4 (LDS Web Magazines) Date: 28 Jan 2001 22:32:57 -0600 [MOD: Larry Jackson is actually the person who forwards literary/artistic articles from Mormon News to AML-List. Thanks, Larry!] You're welcome. Mine is the easy part. Kent Larson and his folks at Mormon News do the real work. I would add that Mormon News sends daily news, along with a weekly news digest, to those who subscribe to the e-mail list. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 29 Jan 2001 08:55:16 -0700 "Richard R. Hopkins" wrote: > Okay, hold on now! It's not that full of exclamation points! :-) That's true. They seemed to proliferate in the preface and first part of the book, but calmed down to normal for the bulk thereafter. I guess Ritchey spilt them all at the beginning of the manuscript. > Actually, I think Thom would enjoy the book a lot more than D. Michael did. > > (Hey Thom. Let's hope D. Michael doesn't review _Moroni Smith_.) :-) I don't actually wish I hadn't read it--now that I've put out my infamous review and don't have to dread writing it anymore. There are some positive things I can say about the book. The premise was a fascinating science fiction idea. Several of the action scenes were exciting. The decision to write such a matter-of-fact and speculative depiction of the afterlife was courageous (as was the decision to publish it). Ritchey _does_ have potential as an author, and merely needs to traverse the same learning curve as any other author. The book is important historically as one of the first genuine LDS science fiction books. I would still have wanted to read it for that reason alone, even if I had received negative feedback about it before doing so. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Changes Date: 29 Jan 2001 09:46:42 -0600 I've wanted to take on this topic all week long, and particularly after seeing insightful posts from Valerie Holladay, Cathy Wilson, and others. So I'm going to write about it now, and at quite a few paragraphs' length too--even though what I'm saying really doesn't connect clearly to the issues others have raised in this thread. So feel free to skip the rest of the post; I'm writing chiefly to indulge myself, not to make a particular point in the conversation... Like Valerie and Cathy, I make a lot of my money (such as there is) editing, and consider myself at least as much an editor as a writer at heart. In fact, a lot of the writing I do is a lot like editing, in that it involves reshaping already existing texts--which must often then be approved by the people who wrote the texts to begin with. I identify several different styles and levels of editing. Here are a few: * Editing for grammar/usage. This is perhaps the type of "editing" we most often think of, though in my opinion it's less important than some of the other categories listed below. I sometimes see some very odd editing that takes place under this rubric, based on an inexperienced (or mis-experienced) editor's mistaken notions of what constitutes "correct" grammar, often based on remembered rules from a high school English class. But English is not a rule-based system. Rather, I'd say that this type of editing is largely a matter of settling on usage that is appropriate and expected for the particular audience/genre of writing. What's needed, then, is a sensitivity to style and usage, and a gift for doing the minimal revision necessary to "fix" problems. * Editing for "house style." There are many areas in English where several alternatives are all perfectly acceptable. These include many instances of spelling (gray vs. grey), punctuation (comma before terminal conjunction in a series), typography (% vs. percent or 4 vs. four), and (most miserably) bibliographic style. A mark of professionalism in a publishing house (whether that's a book publisher or an in-house desktop publishing group) is consistency in these matters. There's a theory that even though 99% of the public never notices these matters, still the reading experience is smoother, with fewer hesitations and interruptions, if consistent rules are followed. And so we get massive tomes like the Chicago Manual of Style, AP style guide, etc., devoted largely to saying which of several options one particular publisher or professional group has decided to follow. This type of editing takes up an enormous, horrendous amount of an editor's time. It's also generally accepted that this type of change can be made without the author's okay--that it is, in fact, a matter of the publisher's discretion, not the writer's. This can lead to conflicts if, for example, a writer wants _grey_ for its atmosphere, and the publisher wants _gray_ because it's the more common American form. * Editing for clarity. This may be the single most important part of the editor's job in 90% of cases. Inherently, an author knows what he or she meant, and therefore cannot easily tell when that meaning does not come through clearly. Often, as Valerie indicated, even if an editor's suggested changes don't work, they signal a point where the author has failed to communicate the meaning (at least for that reader). I would caution here that it's always possible to overinterpret and see ambiguities where most readers wouldn't find them. This is particularly the case when one spends too long looking at individual sentences. After a while doing this, I start to find that every conceivable wording begins to look like it has problems. It's almost certainly true that any sentence in English can be misinterpreted--so you have to be reasonable in where you draw the line. When I think I may be starting to strain at gnats, I will often reread an entire section at normal speaking speed to try to see whether the problem I'm looking at disappears in context. In my opinion, this type of editing is usually best handled through a back-and-forth process with the author, if that's possible. After all, if the problem is one of clarity, it's certainly possible that the editor's interpretation of what was meant will itself be incorrect. I'll often propose an alternative wording in these cases just to convey more clearly what I think the problem was and to give my own "best guess" about what the author meant--but that's always subject to the author's review and feedback. If my proposed edit doesn't capture the author's meaning, I find that the best step at that point is a face-to-face (or voice-to-voice) conversation to clarify what was meant. * Editing for consistency or correctness of detail (e.g., character's height, historical dates). As an editor, you point out anything of this sort you see--or silently correct it if it seems clear to you what the author meant. However, I often find that what looks like inconsistency is actually a problem of clarity--that is, it looks like it's wrong, but really there's a distinction the author is making that isn't communicated clearly to the audience. So it's often better to query the author. In general, the author has to be the one who is responsible for content--though there are certain types of fact that I will always check as a matter of course. (For example, I always check out Internet sites as part of my final editing pass just to make sure the URL is correctly transcribed and the site hasn't shifted.) Some of my most glorious editing triumphs have come when I was able to point out some trivial fact that the author had missed--for example, the time I noted (in proofing a BYU Studies article, I believe) that Frederick Douglass's last name has two s's. Basically, though, it's the author's responsibility to get it right. * Editing for gross structural or content problems (e.g., plot doesn't work, character doesn't hold water, organization of the story is completely wrong). In my opinion, if this type of problem is encountered, it shouldn't be the editor's job to fix it--unless you're being hired essentially to rewrite the work. This is often the case in my job, where I work with material created by people who are content experts but don't think of themselves as writers at all. What I generally do in that case to take the best stab at what I *think* they were getting at, then give it back to them so they will tell me where I guessed wrong. But as I say, that's not really an editor's job--it's a writer's (or ghostwriter's) job. In the case of a piece of creative work, when problems are encountered that are this deepset, the best an editor can do (in my opinion) is outline the problems and suggest possible avenues that *might* work for fixing them, then return the work to the author for revision. Responsibility for attempting the revisions and fixing the problem then rests with the author. Be it noted that there's no guarantee changes suggested by an editor will fix the problem. As a writer, you may have to play detective to figure out what the problem really is: i.e., "What problem in what I wrote could have led the editor to say *that*?" Sometimes, you may decide that the problem is that the editor is simply not a part of your audience, or wants a different story than the one you wrote. If you suspect this may be the case, you may want to get second opinions on the suggested changes by people whose opinions on writing you respect and who you know have some interest and enjoyment in your work (not, however, "loyal friends" who can be relied on to be indignant in your behalf). But ultimately, you're the one who knows what story you were trying to tell, and you're the one who has to figure out how to fix it. * Editing for length. This usually happens in specific circumstances that should be clearly understood between an author and editor: for example, in an article written for a newspaper or magazine. The timeframe in such cases often doesn't allow for reconnecting with the author for review. I'd think that this case should seldom arise with printed creative work, although I guess it happens all the time in dramatic performances. * Editing for stylistic smoothness. This area is a particularly tricky one with creative works, where the author presumably has his or her own style and voice that are part of the attraction of the writing. The editor's job in this case is to attempt to detect lapses, then fix them in a way that leaves the work sounding like the author's own prose--ideally, more like the author's own prose than the original. This can work quite poorly if the editor's natural style is very different from the author's. In fact, this is one of those areas where very good writers can sometimes be very poor editors of another writer's work, because their own distinct style sense gets in the way. On the other hand, when this works well it can lead to improvements that both the author and the editor feel good about. In non-creative work, of course, stylistic distinctiveness is not usually one of the goals--in fact it's often a distraction. In these cases, stylistic editing is directed toward the goal of eliminating anything that might interrupt or jar the reader. Unfortunately, that may mean stripping an engagingly written piece of much of its personality, so it doesn't stand apart from its bland brothers. After all, if smoothness is the goal, a flavorless white sauce is smooth... I had other thoughts I could go into with regard to editing, but I'll stop (for now at least)... Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 29 Jan 2001 12:03:42 -0500 At 06:22 AM 1/27/2001 -0700, you wrote: >>From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) >> >> > People choose the way they talk. >> >>This is an interestin' idea. I'm not sure it works all the time, though. >> >>barbara hume >> > >Sorry, but I would agree that people choose the way they talk, and choose to >revert back to earlier speech patterns. I am very fond of anecdotal situations that lead to conclusions, but almost anyone who spends time working with people who are _trying_ to limit or eliminate an accent could tell you that "SOME" people choose the way they talk" but some do not. Hearing patterns are learned so thoroughly by some individuals that they simply cannot differentiate certain sounds. Among foreign speakers, one of the oldest cliches is the "r" "l" substitution made by many orientals. It is a cliche because it is real-- not with all speakers but with enough to make it real. It is real because those speakers cannot hear the "r" sound. We, as individuals tend to evaluate others by our own experience. Some times it works but there are so many paradigms different from our own that we must be very careful in assuming that what one has accomplished can be accomplished by all. I once had a college student with a terrible (as I thought) speech defect. As I got to know him better I discovered that he was a hearing child of deaf parents. His abilty to hear certain subtleties in both consonants and vowels was seriously compromised by childhood experience- not by deafness. He eventually achieved a degree of what we might call normal speech but it took therapy, work, and a great deal of frustration. It might be noted that though he was born in the South and when he learned to speak it was without a Southern Accent, when I last saw him he could not differentiate (hearing) between a southern accent and the normal accent of one of our students who came from Queens (and showed it when she spoke). Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: [AML] _Odd Couple_ Performance Date: 29 Jan 2001 10:05:35 -0700 I know it's a long way away. But I think somebody ought to come and see a very professional ODD COUPLE at the Villa's Little Brown Theatre in Springville. Scott Wells is a professional director who has run an entire successful theatre in North Carolina. It's a great show! (Of course I would say that--AND hilarious) Odd Couple runs Fri, Sat, and Mon at 7:30 p.m. Tickets $6-8.Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 29 Jan 2001 09:09:50 -0700 I'm willing to take my licks for whatever inadequacies D. Michael may find in _Moroni Smith_. Whatever else he may find, he won't find useless flashbacks nor too many exclamation points. :-) Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism Date: 29 Jan 2001 10:59:30 -0700 > I loved to hear Michael say maybe the time will come when we don't have to > hope/wish/pray/beg for New York to accept our literature or our culture. > Exactly! I'm assuming the time has already come. I know I've butted heads > with New York and they are a foreign country. They just CAN'T publish our > stuff--they would be laughed off. My experience with my editor at HarperCollins has been exactly the opposite. I was nervous about submitting my first book, as it has rather direct references to faith and God and family and not too subtle Mormon values. My editor jumped on those things, and encouraged me to not only keep them in, but expand them. The end result is not blatant, and not Mormon, but definitely Christian (without being "Christian".) The second book I submitted is set in Utah, and very definitely about Mormons. I'm not sure why I submitted this in the first place, as it is entirely written in blank verse. With those HUGE strikes against it, the reaction to this book has been interesting. My editor informed me right away it can't be published as blank verse, but also informed me the editorial committee was so intrigued by it--Mormon-ness, blank verse and all--they instructed her to offer me a two book contract for this and an as-yet untitled and unwritten book, to discourage me from taking my little Mormon "poem-book" as I call it elsewhere. Since then, my editor and I have been struggling to figure out what format this book works in. As for content: her biggest concern is that I have not gone far enough in presenting the Mormon culture and setting. Granted, this is just one editor, but she's one of the foremost children's book editors in NY and has a couple of Newbery Award winners under her belt. I expect the world of children's literature is less fearful of Mormonism than adult literature, but I've been very encouraged by both my editor and agent not to shy away from Mormon and/or Utah themes. I've heard of similar experiences from one or two other children's authors with other editors and publishers as well (Putnam, Bantam Doubleday Dell and Holiday House.) Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: [AML] Local Author Month at the Read Leaf Date: 29 Jan 2001 10:31:38 -0700 Would it be appropriate to post this on the list--there are a few AML list people involved in this, and some authors listers might be interested in... thanks, Laurel [MOD: Absolutely!] > February Is Local Author Month!! > Here at The Read Leaf we're declaring February "Local Author Month!" Every > Thursday evening in February at 7:00 p.m. come listen to local authors talk > about and read from their books. And all of the authors will hang around > afterwards to sign copies of their books for you! You can bring your own or > buy them at The Read Leaf. > > Meet the Authors > Thursday, February 1, 7:00 pm > Marilyn Brown, author of many books including her most recent novel about > the Mountain Meadow Massacre, The Wine-Dark Sea of Grass, and Kjirstin > Youngberg, author of The Promised Twin. > > Meet the Authors > Thursday, February 8, 7:00 pm > Come revel in faraway places with Edna Smith Browne, whose novel Seabird is > set in Nova Scotia, and Anne Bradshaw, whose novel Terracotta Summer is set > in the United Kingdom. > > Meet the Authors > Thursday, February 15, 7:00 pm > Join our Third Thursday Book Club with authors Laurel Brady (Say You Are My > Sister, HarperCollins) and Betty Briggs (Quality Concealed and Image of > Deception, Sunrise Selections). > > Meet the Authors > Thursday, February 22, 7:00 pm > Science fiction and fantasy fans, listen up! Come meet Dave Wolverton, > author of many national titles, including several books in the Star Wars > series and David Richardson, author of The Enchanted Palace. > > The Read Leaf > 164 South Main St. > Springville, UT 84663 > Local 801-489-1390 > Toll-free 877-287-1332 > Fax 801-489-5179 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Re: Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 29 Jan 2001 11:40:57 -0700 (MST) > >D. Micahel reviewed: > > > >> DISORIENTED > >> by Michael Ritchey > >> 1999 Cornerstone Publishing > >> Hard cover, 280 pages > >> $18.95 I must say AMEN to all of his insights. I nearly reviewed the book, but unfortunately I could not be as civil as D. Michael was. The least offensive parts of my (discarded) review - never mind. I must remain civil. However - I will point out a few more weaknesses in the book that bothered me: First there are the "Moral lessons" the book teaches: 1. Meditation is evil - anyone who meditates will eventually be possessed by Satan. (it's like a drug - light meditation will lead to deeper meditation which will lead to contact with evil spirits which will lead to deals with the Devil and possesion by said evil spirits). 2. All Vietnam war vets are psychopaths (I might have let this slide if only one character had been a Vietam vet and a psychopath - but there were at least three - and I don't recall any well - adjusted Vietnam vets anywhere in the book) 3. Mormons don't believe in Metaphysics (perhaps not - but all those articles written on "Mormon metaphsyics" by BYU professors and others -like Sterling McMurrin - might disagree). I must say I was sort of impressed when the main character died (very few writers will kill a main hero so early on) - and wasn't too bothered by following him to the spirit world (but by that point my expectations were very low). But then (Spoiler warning to those who may still want to read it): He gets brought back from the dead in a very dubious way - perhaps his dissolved body might be reconsituted - but does his spirit have to rejoin it? the book was full of plot holes - no real terror for the main characters, and a too easily wrapped up ending where everything turns out okay (He even fooled me - I started to get some respect when it looked like a few things would never be resolved and thus the heroes would still have consequences following them after the book ended - but alas - no such luck. Everything finally does get resolved). AndI agree with D. Michael that the exclamation points are overused. One does not need them to make a point. Sentences like "The sun was hot! The ground was moving!" were all too common. When 90% of the exclamtion points are not in the dialouge it reveals weak writing - the author isn't confident that the narration or description will stand on it's own and so puts in !!!!!!s so as to give it some punch, I guess. If this is the beginning of Mormon Sciecne Fiction - it is a very early stage in the evolutionary chain - must move out of the seas at some point - beginning. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 29 Jan 2001 14:56:12 -0600 Either way is fine with me. Linda > >I'd be happy to make this available on the List, if no one objects. Or > I could just email it to Linda, if you don't mind a hundred page file > showing up. What do y'all think? > > > >Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] _Odd Couple_ Performance Date: 29 Jan 2001 15:17:51 -0600 At 11:05 AM 1/29/01, you wrote: >I know it's a long way away. But I think somebody ought to come and see a >very professional ODD COUPLE at the Villa's Little Brown Theatre in >Springville. Scott Wells is a professional director who has run an entire >successful theatre in North Carolina. It's a great show! (Of course I would >say that--AND hilarious) Odd Couple runs Fri, Sat, and Mon at 7:30 p.m. >Tickets $6-8.Marilyn Brown One of my favorite plays! I wish I was in Utah to see it. Marilyn, you don't say the actual dates here--is that this Friday? Linda ====== Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism Date: 29 Jan 2001 14:57:16 -0700 On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:27:15PM -0700, Barbara R. Hume wrote: > This comment makes me think of that Western movie in which Gene Wilder was a > Polish rabbi who came to the American west to marry, and Harrison Ford was > the outlaw who befriended him. Wilder's rabbi found himself in an alien > culture that bewildered him, but the strength of his faith carried him > through. And when he reached the Jewish community, he joined with the > people there who shared his beliefs and his cultural heritage, symbolized by > the wedding ceremony with the crushed wineglass and everything. (I do find > it hard to imagine marrying Gene Wilder when Harrison Ford is standing right > there, but it was a movie. . . . .) The Frisco Kid (1979) directed by Robert Aldrich For more info, see the Internet Movie Database: http://us.imdb.com/Details?0079180 -- Terry L Jeffress AML Webmaster and AML-List Review Archivist - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: plus two Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism Date: 29 Jan 2001 16:44:52 -0800 (PST) A little bit more on Mormon regionalism: Jan Shipps has written a rather recent article for Beliefnet.com about the 'M' word i.e. Mormon. She sees the rejection of this designation by many of the (esp. young) saints as a move away from a regional Utah-based Mormonism. Her essay ends: "It seems obvious to me that in moving to curtail use of the Mormon label, the church is marking the move away from a past in which being a peculiar people meant being part of an ethnic group whose homeland is located in the inter-mountain West. Other than their being a temple-going people, exactly what the new essence of Latter-day Saint peculiarity will be is not entirely clear. But the history of the way signs of LDS peculiarity have been modified as situations have changed indicates that this particular Church of Jesus Christ and its members will find ways to keep themselves set apart well into the latter days." I think in my recent theorizing about a new kind of Mormon regionalism, I am expressing the hope that literature will contribute fruitfully to the 'new essence of Latter-day Saint peculiarity.' I think it must for cultural documents that are portable, easily transmissable [that don't rely upon the close ties of a small community to be passed on and reproduced] allow for a cross-fertilization of experience and thinking. That is to say, as much as I agree with and respect the mission of the official church magazines, obviously they by themselves can not constitute the sole peculiarity of Mormons---and if they do, I shudder to think of the form that Shipp's 'set apart' will take. That reminds me. How long before we have a large enough market that it's worthwhile for an LDS publishing house to translate our 'major' literary works into other languages (especially Spanish)? ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Dialogue Date: 29 Jan 2001 21:26:20 -0700 > People choose the way they talk. Not everyone is even _aware_ of "the way" they talk, and even fewer choose it. My in-laws, for example, have many regionalisms that many would classify as "uneducated." They are very aware of the importance of "proper" English, but aren't always aware of what that is. Last summer on vacation my mother-in-law corrected her daughter's grammar (don't remember how right now). But not two minutes later she herself said something like, "The dishes need washed." She was completely unaware of her own grammatical error. As for myself, I didn't pick-up on the Utah accent until I had been away from Utah for a good period. Then I heard a friend's voice on tape, and freaked out at what a hick she sounded like. You have to be exposed to a lot of types of speech to consciously choose one. Even with such expsure, certain people are more aware of different dialectal differences, registers, etc. than others. _Those_ people "choose" the way they talk. Most people, like my in-laws, don't. I'd hate for someone to judge my in-laws as stupid by thinking they chose to talk that way. They are far from stupid. Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] RE: Mormon Dialogue Date: 27 Jan 2001 09:13:51 -0500 At 08:51 PM 1/2/1997 -0700, you wrote: >Having been railed on and thoroughly chastised for _coming into an area and >making fun of the way people talk_ may I make a final comment in my defense. >I was born and raised in *this area* and I attended college at BYU, Utah >State and Weber State. People choose the way they talk. My friend from >England has an elegant English accent that she chooses not to use. Another >friend moved to Texas for one year and picked up a Texas accent that she >continues to use 20 years later. My children and I lived in Texas for 25 >years and although we love Texas and consider ourselves Texans, we choose >not to speak with a Texas accent. I don't care how people speak, except >when it applies to theater. I believe in *excellence in theater* and it is >annoying to me to see someone on stage portraying a well-educated, >cosmopolitan person using their regional accent. It makes me feel that they >are not giving their best effort. Yes, this is my problem and since I am a >theatre-goer and an actor, I must deal with it. I support all theater and I >will continue to do so, but I can't help but wish it was different. > >Nan P. McCulloch As the primary "railer", please let me clarify that I did not, and would not identify any particular person who posted. In fact I specifically identified folks who were from an area and made a good living poking fun at their own accents and areas. (Hear Andy Griffeth's _What It Was Was Football_) My comment was for those who _did_ come from outside and criticize, and who identified themselves as being in that situation. I agree with what you have to say about theatre, though it is not true that all people "choose" to speak the way they do. Adopting or changing a pronunciation pattern is very difficult for "some" people. The just really can't hear the difference. When directing _A Lion in Winter_ (some thirty years ago) I had a young actress playing Alais who simply could not get rid of her Southern accent. She spent hours with a therapist, more hours in front of a tape recorder and the result was that if the mention of her accent occurred in rehearsal she broke down in tears. It reached the stage where she was concentrating on speech so much that she lost all sense of character. Finally, to avoid recasting her (in a college play that only had a five week rehearsal period anyway) I told her that we would just accept that she was from the "South of France" and to concentrate on the character. Interestingly enough one of the judges for the American College Theatre Festival made a comment in his critique that he found it interesting and useful that I chose to differentiate Alais from the English rulers by "giving" her that accent. I guess he didn't know that the English royalty at the time spoke mostly French. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Craig Rossiter" Subject: RE: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 29 Jan 2001 21:32:01 -0800 I saw _Traffic_ this weekend. From my perspective as a law enforcement career person, it was a very accurate portrayal of drug trafficking, abuse, and corruption. It was a very disturbing film; disturbing to see what I have basically understood for a long time, that we are losing the "war" on drugs, and that the demand for illegal drugs is the major part of the problem. That is the appeal of drug legalization-it may take the profit out of illegal trafficking. The movie was very well done, and I was amazed that 2.5 hours had passed when it was over. Several others in the theater around me made the same comments. I don't remember exactly what Hatch said, he had a 15 second part in the film, but it seemed like something you would expect him to say. Sure, it was vivid. It was authentic, in my opinion. Talk to anyone who has been involved with cocaine or heroin. It is vivid. Craig Rossiter - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Re: First Attempts to Be a Writer Date: 29 Jan 2001 23:27:44 -0600 Bob Hughes: Meter is very subjective, sometimes it is clear, sometimes not. The challenge for the poet writing in meter is to make it unmistakably clear. In this poem, one could argue that the meter is okay as originally presented, iambic tetrameter: Thy LUSTS and PASsions WIther COLD, esPECially SINCE i've GROWN so OLD. _______________ I don't know my tetrameters from my iambics, and maybe this should go under the subject Mormon Dialogue. (And I do not wish to offend anyone.) So, with those disclaimers out of the way (makes a lawyer proud, doesn't it?) ... Perhaps someone thought the word "especially" has four syllables instead of three: esPECialLY since I'VE grown OLD. So, is the poet challenged to know whether a person thinks a word has three or four syllables? And is it worth squishing a four syllable word into three to keep the added meaning of the extra "so", the dictionary notwithstanding? Larry (who has not yet posted his first attempt to be a writer) Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 30 Jan 2001 01:27:58 -0700 Darvell wrote: > Let me caveat that with the statement > that I did think the characters were a shallow. But this isn't a story > where the character need to change, or discover the purpose of life, or > anything like that. It is an action/adventure story. It's a plot driven > story and not character based -- like all of the James Bond movies. It wasn't shallowness of character that botheres me. It was falseness of character. James Bond may be shallow, but he's his own man, his shallowness is well developed, and you can expect certain behavior from him in certian situations. The characters in _Disoriented_ weren't developed, in my opinion, not even shallowly. They were given a two-dimensional backstory, then manipulated around by the author as the needs of the plot dictated. I didn't feel any definition to the characters. Just place holders for required behavior. > I must say that I > predicted the ending and didn't really like how it turned out, but it was > still good. Amen to that! It was one of my "Mystery Science Theater 3000" remarks earlier on, and it turned out to be the real ending! (Wish I could tell the rest of you what I'm talking about without spoiling the ending.) > If Michael's review discouraged anyone from wanting to purchase this novel, > then take courage in my recommendation. Read it for yourself and see. In > contrast to Michael's words, I'm GLAD that I read this book! I have very mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I hope my review doesn't cause the book to tank. Like I said, I do hope Cornerstone succeeds big time. On the other hand, I would really like to see better stuff coming out so LDS SF doesn't get the same negative rap that general LDS literature has received for so long. I don't want people picking up _Disoriented_ and saying, "If this is LDS science fiction, then I don't like LDS science fiction," like too many of us did with earlier LDS mainstream fiction. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 30 Jan 2001 01:50:46 -0700 Jeff Needle wrote: > I very much appreciate this review. I came close to purchasing this > book. I may hold off having read your summary. Oh, dear, it's happening. I'm going to come across as completely contradictory and say, I don't think my horrendous review should discourage people from buying and reading the book if they were planning on it. Especially someone like you, Jeff, who seems on the way to becoming the official Reviewer of Record for LDS literature. I think it's an important work in the budding genre of LDS science fiction. It would be like not reading Frank Herbert's _Dune_, because you heard that one guy at the BYU science fiction symposium last year berate it as an awful book, labeling weaknesses many of the things most readers think are strengths. Apparently, like _Dune_, most people enjoyed _Disoriented_ in spite of its flaws. Maybe I'm just a lone, raving lunatic out there, like that fellow at BYU whose opinion of _Dune_ didn't go over well at all. After all, I have a very personal interest in LDS science fiction. I took _Disoriented_ very personally. Part of it may be that I've already done a great deal of thinking about what LDS science fiction would be like, so the things _Disoriented_ tried to do didn't catch me by surprise like it might other people. Maybe reading _Disoriented_ will be like the movies. If a movie is hyped too much, it may be incapable of living up to the hype. But if you hear it's really bad and go into the theater expecting nothing, you may actually enjoy it more than you would have. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism Date: 30 Jan 2001 02:24:09 -0700 William Morris wrote: > This wide field has been very > fruitful for LDS science fiction, and I think that > there is evidence that it is providing excellent > fodder for literary fiction as well. Thanks for the reminder. LDS authors are disproportionately represented in mainstream science fiction, and the publishing industry has noticed! In science fiction, I think LDS authors are ahead of the curve that general LDS authors are trying to follow. But there is a caveat. The LDS authors got there way by writing good mainstream stuff--not LDS stuff. Orson Scott Card had a rule for himself that he would never have any Mormon characters in his stories. He has since broken that rule--like just about every other literary rule he's held himself to--but it was probably a wise policy to follow as he established his career. In other words, LDS science fiction authors used an "infiltration" strategy, rather than one of confrontation. Before the rest of the world knew it, they were well established in science fiction. > Of course, for things to really take off, the market > for LDS publishers needs to continue to mature and > grow. This is where publication like _Irreantum_ come > in. For growth, you need exposure, and for exposure > you need venues that feed readers into specific titles > (i.e. reviews, author profiles etc.) Pssst, don't tell anyone--it's a secret. But I'm planning on doing an Internet counterpart to what you're suggesting here. Nope, that's all I'll say for now. > ~~William Morris, who is right now working at > University PR, so while this isn't my preferred career > track, who knows, I could become the first Mormon > literary super agent. Watch me spin, baby! Press > release and book tour, anyone? What a hoot. A Mormon William Morris agency. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] "The Big KSL Holiday Broadcast" (Musical) Date: 30 Jan 2001 02:31:08 -0700 "R.W. Rasband" wrote: > From now on I will keep an eye open for future > productions from Provo Theatre Company. It may be > their next shows won't be so conservative--in the past > they put on David Mamet's "Oleanna." Mamet in > Provo--now that would have been something to see. I watched a filmed version of "Oleanna." I understand what you mean with "conservative," but it was humorous to see non-conservative applied to that piece, since it was a biting indictment of political correctness, which is traditionally considered a liberal cause. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism Date: 30 Jan 2001 09:42:45 -0700 The key, Laurel is YOUNG PEOPLE AND CHILDREN. It is a different world. Try mainstream. Nice, though! I'm so glad for you! Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- > My experience with my editor at HarperCollins has been exactly the opposite. [large MOD snip] > > Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] _Odd Couple_ Performance Date: 30 Jan 2001 09:44:59 -0700 Every Friday, yes. The play closes Feb. 12. So every Friday, Sat. and Monday until Feb. 12. Do see it. It is EXCELLENT! (239 S. Main in Springville, 7:30 p.m.) Marilyn Brown ----- Original Message ----- > > Marilyn, you don't say the actual dates here--is that this Friday? > > Linda - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: [AML] Poetic Stress (was: First Attempts to Be a Writer) Date: 30 Jan 2001 10:02:02 -0700 > >Perhaps someone thought the word "especially" has >four syllables instead of three: > > esPECialLY since I'VE grown OLD. > >So, is the poet challenged to know whether a person >thinks a word has three or four syllables? And is it >worth squishing a four syllable word into three to >keep the added meaning of the extra "so", the >dictionary notwithstanding? > >Larry (who has not yet posted his >first attempt to be a writer) Jackson As I mentioned, the challenge for the poet writing in meter is to make it unmistakably clear. You can force the line, as you have proposed, but it doesn't sound natural. Seldom would you ever have any stress on the final syllable of the word "especially." It could happen, but the meter would have to be so firmly established earlier in the poem to make you think it was a natural pronunciation when you got to that word. I don't think the two line ditty that was presented establishes that rhythm. One of my biggest mistakes in the past was to try and force meter, to count syllables instead of listen to natural stresses. It was an especialLY hard lesson for me to learn. - Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kellene Adams Subject: [AML] Two Requests for Information Date: 30 Jan 2001 10:47:58 -0700 I'm not sure if this request is appropriate, but thought I'd try: I am currently working on a compilation (for personal use primarily, although it may turn into something else depending on what I end up with) of Christmas/New Year traditions from countries and cultures around the world. I have spent quite a bit of time searching online and in libraries and am not finding as much as I thought I would. Does anyone out there have any ideas/suggestions/observations about places I may go to do this type of research? While I'm at it, I am also currently putting together another issue of Pioneer Magazine (a publication produced by the Sons of Utah Pioneers). Our next issue is on education, and we are at the very beginning stages of hammering out the next issue. In reading the list the last few days, I thought an article on the Deseret Alphabet would be great. Any other article suggestions about pioneer (1847-1869) education? Also any volunteers for writers? We can't pay (it's all a labor of love) except in complimentary copies and profuse praise and gratitude. I've worked with a couple people from the list in past issues and received wonderful articles and ideas. Thanks! Note to Mod: If you feel okay about posting this, you can have them reply to either request to me personally (kelleneadams@earthlink.net). Thanks, BTW, for your great work. I sure enjoy reading this. . . Kellene [MOD: Thanks! And requests of this sort are certainly on-target for the List as I see it.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 30 Jan 2001 10:56:16 -0700 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > Jeff Needle wrote: > > >> I very much appreciate this review. I came close to purchasing this >> book. I may hold off having read your summary. > > > Oh, dear, it's happening. > > I'm going to come across as completely contradictory and say, I don't > think my horrendous review should discourage people from buying and > reading the book if they were planning on it. Then what good is a review? With so little precious time to spend on reading, any review that saves me some bucks and time is greatly appreciated. > I think it's an important work in the budding > genre of LDS science fiction. It would be like not reading Frank > Herbert's _Dune_, because you heard that one guy at the BYU science > fiction symposium last year berate it as an awful book, labeling > weaknesses many of the things most readers think are strengths. LDSF has been budding since 1990, with Tennis Shoes, Gerald Lund, and Moroni Smith. _Disoriented_ is far from a trailblazer, so can be ignored on that level alone. And no, it would be like not reading the other Dune books, which did indeed stink. Dune actually is good. Disoriented sounds, based on your and the other review, like amateruish drivel. > Apparently, like _Dune_, most people enjoyed _Disoriented_ in spite of > its flaws. Again, thers is a difference. Dune won a Hugo. Maybe I'm just a lone, raving lunatic out there, like that > fellow at BYU whose opinion of _Dune_ didn't go over well at all. No, you are a voice in the wilderness. > > After all, I have a very personal interest in LDS science fiction. I > took _Disoriented_ very personally. As you should. I've read some of your short stories. You are miles above the author of Disoriented in writing style, sence of story, and ability to characterize. > Part of it may be that I've already > done a great deal of thinking about what LDS science fiction would be > like, so the things _Disoriented_ tried to do didn't catch me by > surprise like it might other people. You and I suffer from the same disease. As SF fans, we've read the best the genre has to offer. Once you've worshipped at the feet of the masters, it's very difficult to find solace in the works of lesser mortals. I've seen too many well-produced plays in my life to ever be satisfied again with a Road Show. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gideon Burton Subject: RE: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 30 Jan 2001 11:10:05 -0700 The first thing I did after seeing Traffic was go home and have a frank chat with my 12 year old son about drugs (which we both laughed about because he truly is above suspicion), but when I probed him about the general environment at his Middle School, he told me he regularly sees marijuana being smoked by 7th graders. We talked some more. Traffic is the sort of film that would offend mainstream LDS viewers. I suspect they would see it as a worldly exploitation of drugs. I would argue against it being exploitative. The movie is shocking, but showed restraint in a number of instances where other directors/writers would not have held back. It focused the shock effect appropriately, in my opinion, toward its central themes. It is not a diatribe against government efforts to stop drugs; rather, it shows the government's best intentions, partial successes, and ultimate limits in being able to stop drugs. The movie makes you realize how many borders drugs crosses--not just US/Mexican, but especially the borders between public and private, appearance and reality. Drugs are more deeply embedded in our culture, community, economy, and homes than we realize, and at each of these places drugs cause lasting damage (and at each of these levels there is a place to take action). To me the movie was a sobering wake-up call, not an exploitation film. Senator Hatch should have been proud to be associated with something more apt to engage real thought about the drug problem than many a political sermon could do. Gideon Burton - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: [AML] Author's Say in Book Layout Date: 30 Jan 2001 16:07:06 -0600 Question--How much say does an author (excluding someone who is both author/illustrator of a picture book) have over the book layout? I recently read a book that had a terribly distracting layout, as far as I was concerned. It looked almost double-spaced and yet had very narrow margins, especially in the gutter (is that the right word? in the middle). It almost looked like someone had just copied out their own typed-up manuscript and bound it. I guess it was supposed to look like that, though, because it was published by Alfred Knopf. Regardless of publisher, I would HATE to have a book end up looking like that. Is the author just stuck with it, or can one complain about the packaging? Rose _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 30 Jan 2001 22:19:39 GMT You realize what you've done, don't you? You've taken away my excuse fo= r=20 not spending more money on books. =20 As a confirmed biblioholic, I need for people to tell me, NO! Don't buy= =20 more books!!!! You are preventing my recovery. Thanks for the clarification. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 1/30/2001, 12:50:46 AM, "D. Michael Martindale" =20= wrote regarding Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review): > Jeff Needle wrote: > > I very much appreciate this review. I came close to purchasing this= > > book. I may hold off having read your summary. > Oh, dear, it's happening. --=20 Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Handling Agents Date: 30 Jan 2001 15:50:59 -0700 Here's an update on my marketing efforts for my memoir _Confessions of a Mormon Missionary_ (I've dropped the _A Southern Cross to Bear_ title for now.) Four agents said yes to my snail-mailed query letter, and all 4 have rejected all or part of the manuscript. Over the past few weeks I've cut about 30,000 words and tried to tighten things up, and the other day I sent out a bunch more e-mail queries to agents. Now I have 14 more solid requests for readings. Apparently I have a killer query letter, but my manuscript ain't clearing the infield yet. (Hopefully this new version will do better.) I thought agents would disregard e-mail---I initially got a lot of bad addresses and autoreplies, but I started getting good replies within less than an hour and a phone call within two hours. My question is, a New York agent named Richard Curtis telephoned and asked for a 10-day exclusive look at the manuscript, which I thought was reasonable, so I let the other 13 know I'd be delaying them a couple of weeks. But I just got the following e-mail: <<>> Does anyone have any advice (or good articles/book chapters to refer me to) that will help me understand how to handle agents? Are exclusives a bad idea? I'm already kind of into it up to my knees. Also, anybody heard of Susan Schulman, 454 W. 44th St., New York, NY 10036? She wrote back: <<>> By community, she's referring to Mormonism. It's a lot of fun being popular at the dance, but I'm looking for a spouse. (By the way, I also have yes answers from editors at Villard Books, Henry Holt, and Chicago Review Press, but I'm putting them off until I see if an agent will take me on and handle the submissions.) Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT 84663. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cratkinson Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Changes Date: 30 Jan 2001 14:52:48 -0800 (PST) As a copy-editor, I found Jonathan's post quite interesting. I've edited mostly for grammar/usage problems, although I often find many of the other types of editing he mentioned bleeding into my work. I happen to have the kind of brain that remembers that twelve chapters ago, on the right-hand side, toward the bottom of the page the character had steely blue eyes and now he has moss green eyes. (My brain also likes to remember movie lines, obscure facts and other useless trivia but feels no need to recall where I put my car keys five minutes ago. ) So editing for consistency, clarity and detail is second nature. <<* Editing for gross structural or content problems (e.g., plot doesn't work, character doesn't hold water, organization of the story is completely wrong). . . . As a writer, you may have to play detective to figure out what the problem really is: i.e., "What problem in what I wrote could have led the editor to say *that*?" >> This is great advice. The most frustrating editing experience I've had was a woman's first novel. I edited it fully - twice! The first time, the poor thing was red from front page to back. Besides the spelling, grammar, punctuation and consistency errors (two characters changed names halfway through, one changed spelling randomly and thirteen of seventeen characters had names beginning with "D") it had gross structural and content problems. (Thank you, Jonathan. I couldn't have thought of a nicer way to say it.) When I returned the manuscript to the author the first time it was full of questions like, "Where are they for this scene?" and "Why did Sally do this?" and "This speech doesn't sound like it's coming from Fred. It doesn't match the way he speaks in the rest of the book." Instead of doing what Jonathan suggested and reviewing the problem areas for clarity, flow and structure, the author explained to me why she'd written what she had. I don't know how many times I told her that the questions were simply meant to point out areas that were confusing or vague and each time she simply insisted on explaining her choices to me. I finally had to tell her rather forcefully (not my favorite way to approach these things) that I wasn't asking the questions because I wanted to know the answers, but because they weren't answered in the novel. She finally understood - or so I thought - and began her revisions. When I got the novel back for the second pass, she had "fixed" the problem areas by including lines like, "They were in the South Pacific," and "Sally did it because she felt that it was the best choice in the situation." She answered my questions in the text just as she had in person. Obviously, this is a writer without a great deal of skill or understanding, but some people I've worked with are so attached to what they've written that they're not willing to "play detective." They're more likely to shrug off the obvious stupidity of the editor for not understanding what they meant. So, here we get to the reason I'm writing this: I think the *trust* between writer and editor is the most important piece of the relationship. If the writer trusts the editor, the changes and suggestions will be considered more seriously and the writer will know the editor is considering his voice and style during the editing process. I don't think an good editor (or writer, on the other side of this coin) is someone you can randomly choose, but more someone you can work with and train to be good - for you! -Christine Atkinson _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: RE: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 30 Jan 2001 23:45:40 > >Traffic is the sort of film that would offend mainstream LDS viewers. I >suspect they would see it as a worldly exploitation of drugs. I would >argue >against it being exploitative. I whole-heartedly agree with this. Drugs are certainly not glamorized in the film. To the extent that the film is "about" drug use (it's more about the war on drugs), it's a cautionary tale: If you use drugs, you're going to wind up screwed up, strung out or dead. It's the old discussion we've already had here several times, about whether it's necessary to show the bad stuff in order to emphasize the good. In this case, the messages would not have been nearly as profound if the drug use and dehumanization associated with it had been glossed over or merely implied. As with "Requiem for a Dream," it wouldn't have been enough to tell us that the characters wallowed in hell; we have to go there with them. Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Handling Agents Date: 30 Jan 2001 17:06:01 -0700 Hey, Chris! You have done more with your astounding query letter than I have done in a lifetime. You're going to hit, I just feel it in my bones! My request is that you save the letters of all these people and their addresses so the rest of us can look at them! Bless you! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Author's Say in Book Layout Date: 30 Jan 2001 14:05:55 -0700 Rose Green wrote: > Question--How much say does an author (excluding someone who is both > author/illustrator of a picture book) have over the book layout? I recently > read a book that had a terribly distracting layout, as far as I was > concerned. It looked almost double-spaced and yet had very narrow margins, > especially in the gutter (is that the right word? in the middle). It > almost looked like someone had just copied out their own typed-up manuscript > and bound it. I guess it was supposed to look like that, though, because it > was published by Alfred Knopf. Regardless of publisher, I would HATE to > have a book end up looking like that. Is the author just stuck with it, or > can one complain about the packaging? Some regional presses might let an author have limited say in the layout/design of a picture book, but not the national publishing houses. An author usually doesn't even get to help choose the illustrator. I'm surprised that a book published by Knopf would be so poorly designed. Perhaps it is *supposed* to look amateurish. What is the title? Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Regionalism Date: 30 Jan 2001 14:15:04 -0700 Laurel Brady wrote: > My experience with my editor at HarperCollins has been exactly the opposite. > I was nervous about submitting my first book, as it has rather direct > references to faith and God and family and not too subtle Mormon values. My > editor jumped on those things, and encouraged me to not only keep them in, > but expand them. snip > The second book I submitted is set in Utah, and very definitely about > Mormons. I'm not sure why I submitted this in the first place, as it is > entirely written in blank verse. With those HUGE strikes against it, the > reaction to this book has been interesting. My editor informed me right away > it can't be published as blank verse, but also informed me the editorial > committee was so intrigued by it--Mormon-ness, blank verse and all--they > instructed her to offer me a two book contract for this and an as-yet > untitled and unwritten book, to discourage me from taking my little Mormon > "poem-book" as I call it elsewhere. Laurel, this is so cool! What, specifically, is the subject matter of the "little Mormon poem book?" I wish they'd let you keep the blank verse. Hey, haven't they read _Out of the Dust_? :-) Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Handling Agents Date: 30 Jan 2001 18:00:40 -0700 > (By the way, I also have yes answers from editors at Villard Books, > Henry Holt, and Chicago Review Press, but I'm putting them off until I > see if an agent will take me on and handle the submissions.) Chris: In my opinion (which may or may not be worth anything) an editor in the hand is worth a lot more than any number of agents in the bush. If you have an editor sold on your ms, you can easily get an agent at that point since you've already done the hard work. And, even if you do have an editor begging to buy your ms, I would always recommend having an agent handle the negotiations, even though it's going to cost you 15% off the top. A good agent will without exception be more than worth the fee, particularly if you're trying to build a career, not just sell a book. Good luck! Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 30 Jan 2001 18:46:03 -0700 Just some thoughts and comments on Ivan's review. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 11:40 AM > Ivan Wolfe said that one of the hidden messages in _Disoriented_ is: > 2. All Vietnam war vets are psychopaths (I might have let this slide if only > one character had been a Vietam vet and a psychopath - but there were at least > three - and I don't recall any well - adjusted Vietnam vets anywhere in the > book) I believe the detective, who was a major character and a good guy was a Vietnam vet. Am I wrong or did that fact receive less emphasis than it should have? > I must say I was sort of impressed when the main character died (very few > writers will kill a main hero so early on) - and wasn't too bothered by > following him to the spirit world (but by that point my expectations were very > low). > > But then (***Spoiler warning*** to those who may still want to read it): > > > > He gets brought back from the dead in a very dubious way - perhaps his dissolved > body might be reconsituted - but does his spirit have to rejoin it? I thought it was fairly obvious that sending his spirit back was an option determined by "the powers that be" in the spirit world, not something that occured automatically. The villain, too, was "reoriented" but his spirit was not given the option of returning. The return was facilitated by the fact that the hero spent very little actual time in the spirit world. Did that come across? The reconstitution of the hero's body at the end seemed inevitable to me based on the physics premise. That's probably why you guys figured it out from the start. Frankly, I was surprised how few people anticipated that. So what did you feel was wrong in going with the obvious? Is this writing skill, or personal taste? Personally, one of my pet peeves is the penchant of some writers to posit the occurence of events that could not have happened just to make their story seem different. I think an author needs to set up an event so it has a high probability of occurance, or they should make their story out of what, in fact, is most likely to occur. (Not that what does happen is always foreseeable, of course.) Am I missing something? > the book was full of plot holes - no real terror for the main characters, and a > too easily wrapped up ending where everything turns out okay (He even fooled me > - I started to get some respect when it looked like a few things would never be > resolved and thus the heroes would still have consequences following them after > the book ended - but alas - no such luck. Everything finally does get > resolved). This criticism is very curious to me. What's wrong with everything turning out okay, resolving all the consequences? Personally, I feel an author is sloppy if he or she doesn't tie up the loose ends in a fictional story. Am I the only one who feels that way? Isn't that a characteristic of escapist literature? Isn't scifi mostly escapist in nature?Does my taste tend toward the juvenile on this issue? Help! Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Handling Agents Date: 30 Jan 2001 21:17:24 -0700 Christopher Bigelow wrote: >My question is, a New York agent named Richard Curtis telephoned and >asked for a 10-day exclusive look at the manuscript, which I thought >was reasonable, so I let the other 13 know I'd be delaying them a >couple of weeks. Richard Curtis is very well respected agent, and is someone you would probably do very well to work with. I would love to have him as my agent. What he's asking for with the 10-day exclusive is the ability to shop it around to find out whether he can sell it. I suspect he believes it's a sellable book but he wants to make sure before he commits to representing it. So... Do what you need to do, but know that Richard Curtis is a well-respected agent, and consider his request for an exclusive to be very good news. If he agrees to represent you, that probably means he has a tentative buyer in the works. At that point you just need to pick an agent that you think has the contacts and track record of successfully negotiating deals in your market. Curtis has a very good reputation in sf genre circles as being one of the high-value guys that can help move you into film and other media. I don't have much information about his work with other categories. In any case, you could do much worse. I know of some books (I believe one was subtitled, "Being Your Own Literary Agent") but I'll need to research to give you specifics. Sounds like some good possibilities are brewing for you. I wish you the best of luck and success on your effort. I think this underscores my personal belief that Mormonism is now sufficiently accepted by the mainstream that we can start selling a variety of novels that deal explicitly with Mormon spirituality and social mindset. We're seen as at least slightly exotic right now, and people are interested in the inner minds of real Mormons, not set pieces in an expose. I look forward to hearing what happens. Be well. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Student Actress Sues U of Utah Over Play Text: Salt Lake Tribune Date: 30 Jan 2001 21:25:38 -0600 Tribune 25Jan01 A2 [From Mormon-News] LDS Student Actress Sues U of Utah Over Play Text SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- University of Utah student Christina Axson-Flynn has filed a lawsuit in federal court claiming her constitutional rights to freedom of speech and religion have been violated by the faculty of the U's Actor Training Program. University theater professors allegedly refused to let Axon-Flynn omit two offensive words from an in-class performance, in spite of them allowing a Jewish classmate to miss an entire assignment to observe Yom Kippur. In a January 4th deposition, student Jeremy Rische said he was excused from an in-class assignment, later tutored and allowed to take a test he missed for observing Yom Kippur, a Jewish holy day. University spokesman, Fred Esplin believes the allegations are groundless. "The university does not discriminate on the basis of gender, religion or ethnicity, and that's what we expect the court will ultimately determine," Esplin said. James W. McConkie, the attorney representing Axson-Flynn said, "The state has no compelling reason as to why it's essential she say the word 'God' in order to get a good education." "Our client is not trying to affect what is taught, how it is taught, what the curriculum is, what is in the curriculum and what isn't," McConkie said. In filings last November, attorneys Alain C. Balmanno and Peggy E. Stone urged U.S. District Judge Tena Campbell to weigh any alleged violations to Axson-Flynn's constitutional rights "against the backdrop of the university's freedom to determine its curriculum and how to instruct the students in the curriculum." When admitted to the University of Utah, Axson-Flynn, who is a member of The Church of Jeus Christ of Latter-day Saints, believed she would be allowed to adhere to her religious beliefs. However, in a review session at the end of semester, she was told she wold have to "modify her values" or drop out of the program. Alan Balmanno, the assistant Utah attorney general who is representing the University faculty said the Axson-Flynn and Rische cases are distinctly different. "To accommodate him on this very different type of requirement doesn't require the university to change its curriculum," Balmanno said. "If you take that proposition to its limit, if you have 25,000 students you could have 25,000 curriculums." Sources: Filing: U. Treated Religions Differently; LDS Student Argues U.Treated Her Differently Salt Lake Tribune 25Jan01 A2 http://www.sltrib.com/01252001/utah/65633.htm By Brooke Adams: Salt Lake Tribune Student sues U., cites religious bias Deseret News 24Jan01 A2 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,245016219,00.html By Maria Titze: Deseret News staff writer Woman says professors hostile to LDS beliefs >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Date: 30 Jan 2001 22:55:55 -0800 On Tue, 09 Jan 2001 15:09:42 -0700 "Travis Manning" writes: > Ironically, my wife and I read Lewis'_Great Divorce_ on our > honeymoon,somewheres between Salmon, Idaho and Salt Lake City. > > Don't remember the book much. That whole month of July 2000 was a > blur. > > Travis K. Manning How delightful. Donna and I began our honeymoon somewheres between Salmon, Idaho and SLC, UT--closer to Salmon, actually, in Challis, a town of 1000 or two, with about that many in the cemetery, maybe more. I believe Challis appears in one of Zane Gray's novels, Judith Freeman lived there for a time, about 4 years ago, maybe still does, and there's a reference to it in Wayne Carver's "With Voice of Joy and Praise,"' in Levi Peterson's anthology, "Greening Wheat." The Pahsimeroi valley, between Challis and Salmon (Norwegian bachelor farmers and all that) is the subject of a local novel called _Pahsimeroi_. We got married in Idaho Falls on Saturday, spent the night in Challis, went to church the next day, then my parents took us over to the Y Inn for dinner and we saw Ollie and some other friends and headed for Jellystone (for I am a bear of very little brain), but we only made it 56 miles to Salmon, however, the off-season had just started the day before, odd that Labor Day weekend isn't part of the on-season, so we got a room cheap at the Wagonwheel (I think.) Jellystone burned the next year, and we didn't get back there for our 10th anti-verserary because by then Donna's mother had regained enough health to make the gruelling trip from under-doctored deep rural northern Idaho Bo Gritz country (roughly the setting of Michael Tunnell's _Mailing May_, which I found in the Lindon Elementary library after reading about in on AML-List (3/10/00)) to the medical paradise of Utah County on a bed in her hometeacher's van. We go to Challis at least once a year, for Memorial Day, and every year the Veterans conducting the ceremony get older and older. Donna's father would be 113 or 114--WWI veteran. "Your grandfather, you mean." Odd that in a town that small with a family that large school teachers wouldn't know that detail. We were last in Challis at the end of August, when my brother-in-law had driven his Windstar across Utah and Idaho with a draped coffin in the back, our families in our Windstar. While my mother-in-law was dying I sat by her bed one night and started reading a book I was supposed to review, Kenny Kemp's _I Hated Heaven._ It was not lost on me that I was reading a book about death, but I didn't choose it for the subject. I read it that weekend. Interesting experience. Will make a good review. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] tentative LTU&E symposium schedule/call for panelists Date: 30 Jan 2001 23:41:07 -0700 It's time once again for Life, the Universe, & Everything XIX, the science fiction and fantasy symposium at BYU. The symposium will be March 1-3 (the weekend after the AML conference) and it's FREE (except the Saturday banquet). Guests of Honor are Harry Turtledove, Tracy Hickman (a Mormon), and Jeanne Cavelos. Below is a TENTATIVE schedule of panels; others will be added as this only includes the writing and media panels but not the art, academic, and create-your-own-world panels. Anyone who would like to be on a panel (or has suggestions), please contact Charlene Harmon at charleneh@aol.com For more information, see http://www.jps.net/helgem/ltue/ Marny Parkin http://home.airswitch.net/MormonBib/ _________________________ Hi, everyone! This is a tentative schedule. I'm still making changes (rearranging, deleting). This is also a call for panelists. Some of you have replied. (Thank you!) Anyone else interested in being on a panel (or donating to the auction), please let me know. :) Charlene Thursday evening will be a reception (location TBA, probably off campus). Friday evening will be a cabaret (talent show) and fashion show (for costumes). Saturday evening is the banquet (tentatively a Medieval Feast again), followed by the Charity Auction (donations WELCOME). TENTATIVE schedule for LTUE 2001 Thursday, 1 March 2001 10:00-10:50 Opening Ceremonies 11:00-11:50 Main Address: Jeanne Cavelos Noon-12:50 Arthur C. Clark and 2001: a look back (Dave Powell, Bruce Thatcher?, Helge Moulding, Fantasy and Video Games 1:00-1:50 Creating story ideas: Where to look and tools to help (Sue Kroupa,Janus Daniels, Maurene Jensen, The oral storytelling tradition 2:00-2:50 Digital filmmaking and streaming media on the Internet (Helge Moulding, Carolyn Nicita, Amy Larsen, From Captain Underpants to Harry Potter: Writing Children's Novels 3:00-3:50 Copywrite and the writer (Sue Kroupa, Helge Moulding, Creating memorable villains: Disney, Shakespeare, etc. 4:00-4:50 Horror: Scare vs gore Creating your own game 4:00-4:50 Reading: Tracy Hickman 5:00-5:50 What you need to look for when you edit (Barbara Hume (M), Cara O'Sullivan, Bruce Thatcher, Janus Daniels (M), Maurene Jensen, Mary Anne Mohanraj) Q&A: Tracy Hickman Role-playing 101: So you want to play a game? (Charlene Harmon, Aleta Clegg, 6:00-6:50 LOTR: The godfather of fantasy? (Helge Moulding, Joining a fan club Friday, 2 March 2001 10:00-10:50 From Apollo to the Space Shuttle and beyond: postulating the future of space travel (Carol Paton, Laura, Bruce Thatcher, Helge Moulding, Music in SF&F (D. Michael Martindale, 11:00-11:50 Main Address: Tracy Hickman Fought Like Dragons: Sci-Fi, Fantasy, and Mormon Thought Noon-12:50 Playing Games as a way to get story ideas (Kathleen Woodbury, Carol Paton, Roddenberry's legacy: Star Trek and Beyond 1:00-1:50 Networking for writers: how to do it and does it work? (Barbara Hume, Bruce Thatcher, Sue Kroupa, Mary Anne Mohanraj, Lee Allred, Role-playing: Being a good player (tips and tricks) 2:00-2:50 Writing to a deadline (Carol Paton, Lee Allred, Role-playing: Creating and using good monsters 2:00-2:50 Foundations of Story (Tracy Hickman) 3:00-3:50 Reality is in the details: It's the little things in your story that make it memorable (Barbara Hume, Bruce Thatcher, Carol Paton, Sue Kroupa, Krys Morgan, SF&F on the stage: How to make it work and do you want to? 4:00-4:50 From dry fact to drama: using both fact and fiction in alternate histories and historicals (Kathleen Woodbury, Lee Allred, Sue Kroupa, Repeating History: Why does SF Media reflect and shadow real Earth history? (Jenna Eatough, Helge Moulding, 5:00-5:50 CYOW: RPG: Creating a believable and fun world to role play in (Charlene Harmon, Aleta Clegg, Marketing your screenplay/play 6:00-6:50 How to tell a good ghost story (Maurene Jensen, Krys Morgan, Tricks to making your own movies Creating your own Jedi costume Saturday, 3 March, 2001 8:00-10:00 Killer breakfast: Star Bores Episode II (Tracy) 10:00-10:50 Writing fantasy for the LDS market (Tyler, Lee Allred, Bruce Thatcher, Krys Morgan, Scott Parkin, The Pirate Panel: Pirates in SF&F (Aleta Clegg, 11:00-11:50 Main Address: Harry Turtledove Noon-12:50 The heart of darkness: How dark should your villains be? (Bruce Thatcher, Maurene Jensen, A. L. Carlisle, Scott Parkin, Editing your own movie 1:00-1:50 How to keep your series of books interesting to the reader (Krys Morgan, Live or die: The players guide to guerilla dungeoning (Tracy Hickman) 2:00-2:50 Making writing workshops work (Julia, Brooke, Kathleen Woodbury, Thom, D. Michael Martindale, Janus Daniels (M), Mary Anne Mohanraj) Putting it together: The little things your costume needs to succeed (Carol Paton, 3:00-3:50 Web publishing: Where to do it and why? (Ken Rand, Mary Anne Mohanraj, Helge Moulding, Space Simulators in Utah 4:00-4:50 Diction, Dialog and Dialect: Is how your character speaks as important as what they say? (Kathleen Woodbury, Sue Kroupa, Evil reformed: The new anti-hero (Forever Knight, Angel, etc.) 5:00-5:50 Makeup demo, or how to become a Klingon in ten easy steps (Carol Paton, Rich Screenwriting how to: you have a great idea, now what? 5:00-5:50 Casting call: blending fictional and historical characters in your novel 6:00-6:50 Star Wars Episode 2: Separating fact from fiction - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 31 Jan 2001 07:14:58 -0700 > Working as an AP in Haiti was an additional eye opener. Only new > missionaries were in the country legally, for example (visa's are > only given > for three months and the missionaries just bribe their way out of the > country). A lot of emphasis is placed on obeying the laws of the > land, but > when the rubber meets the road, some things turn out to be, er, > negotiable. As far as the government of Mexico is concerned I was never a missionary there. According to my visa I was a basketball instructor for the Mutual Improvement Association. (Anybody who has met me knows what a laugh *that* is ;-d) Because of centuries of abuse, foreign missionaries are specifically forbidden by the Mexican Constitution. But the Missionary Department arranged my visa without any unwieldly concern for the truth or the law. What that taught me is that the Church operates with an assumption that a higher good supercedes any legality. I guess honest in heart trumps honest in fact. > Nowhere in there is any kind of belief in the perfection or > infallibility of Joseph Smith, President Hinckley or anyone except God and > Jesus Christ. So even if the Church is not always truthful, it is still > True. Only the Godhead and their Atonement are unchangeable. The Church is very changeable, its programs and emphases changing constantly, as they certainly must. The people of the Church are more changeable still. -- Scott Tarbet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] SODERBERGH, _Traffic_ (Movie) Date: 31 Jan 2001 08:06:27 -0700 We had just the kind of chat Gideon describes with our children last month--not after seeing _Traffic_, but after my cousin died of a heroin overdose. My cousin either knew he was going to die, or overdosed on purpose. He told his parents he wanted his obituary to include a warning to all young people--which it did. It said, "Gill wanted young people to know that his death was caused by his addition to heroin." The funeral was remarkable: Mormon types, recovering drug addicts, family. The stake president, who looked "typically Mormon," opened his talk by saying, "Quite a collection we have here, isn't it. Some of you have hardly ever missed church, and others have hardly ever attended. But we're all here because we loved Gill. I am not a drug user myself, but my father was." He then told of the pain of witnessing his father hauled off to jail and not understanding why the policemen could not see his father's goodness, as he did. He told watching his father's decline, knowing the tremendous potential that was being wasted. It was a remarkable testimony. Honestly, I am a bit embarrassed at Orrin Hatch's embarrassment over appearing in _Traffic_. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Handling Agents Date: 31 Jan 2001 08:10:43 -0700 Exclusives are great ideas, Chris. If an agent requests it, it indicates some commitment. What we all need to remember is that it is very difficult for an agent to SELL a Mormon book wherein the author actually seems to believe in Mormonism. It happens, but it's rare. My experience when I worked with an agent was that she was excited about my work but couldn't sell it. However, she said that the publishers at E.P. Dutton had said, "We've been waiting for a really good Mormon book." They were in the midst of re-structuring, so they didn't take it, but maybe now is the time--if that company still exists. It's worth a try. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Handling Agents Date: 31 Jan 2001 09:39:37 -0700 When I get a chance, I will type up and post a full list of all agents/edit= ors I've come across who are showing openness to Mormon themes (21 so = far). One of the reasons is to put them on Irreantum's mailing list--maybe = some will get into the habit of scanning our magazine for interesting = authors. I do hope my ms. catches on with someone, but if not I still = consider this query experience to be helpful in breaking Mormon writing = into the mainstream, as least for us to discuss some query strategies and = start grooming more agents/editors to look at Mormon stuff. I hope anyone = else working along similar lines will share your experiences with us, as = well as names/addresses of anyone showing openness to mainstream Mormon = writing. Chris Bigelow -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. >>> "Brown" 01/30 5:06 PM >>> Hey, Chris! You have done more with your astounding query letter than I = have done in a lifetime. You're going to hit, I just feel it in my bones! My request is that you save the letters of all these people and their = addresses so the rest of us can look at them! Bless you! Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 31 Jan 2001 09:57:34 -0700 Richard R. Hopkins wrote: > This criticism is very curious to me. What's wrong with everything turning > out okay, resolving all the consequences? I haven't read the book, but I'll give my opinion in general terms, using a specific example. There's nothing wrong with everything turning out all right in a novel, as long as it has been well prepared for by the author. Sometimes, it doesn't. Even the greats fail in this regard. One of my favorite Stephen King novels is _The Stand_. The ending literally comes out of nowhere. The story is over due to *nothing* done by the protagonists, with whom we've lived for over 800 pages. It's a Deus Ex Machina ending in a quite literal sense (the finger of God appears and touches off an atom bomb). At that point, all the suffering, all the deaths, all the dangers, the protagonists had gone through up to then seemed to be pointless. As I said, I haven't read _Disoriented_ but if ends like that, that may be what Ivan is talking about. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Turk325@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Mormon History Date: 31 Jan 2001 12:11:52 EST In a message dated 1/31/01 9:30:17 AM, starbet@timp.net writes: << What that taught me is that the Church operates with an assumption that a higher good supercedes any legality. I guess honest in heart trumps honest in fact.>> But do you disagree with this? If you're a Dutch partisan hiding Jews in your basement, what do you say when the Gestapo bangs on your door? "Yup. I gotta be honest. Lemme show you where they are"? I suggest there IS a hierarchy. Kurt. [MOD: I'm allowing this through, but with the caution that we're straying dangerously far into off-topic territory, in the sense that this looks like it's becoming a discussion of "doctrines or policies of the LDS Church," which is off-topic "except as they affect how Mormons read and write" (quoting the AML-List Guidelines). Any further comments along these lines should take pains to establish a more explicit literary connection.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] SAMUELSEN, _What Really Happened_ (Performance) Date: 31 Jan 2001 10:49:01 -0700 ***SPOILER ALERT*** Eric said: > What Really Happened is a play about the power of > rationalization. A nice young couple, Cath and Rich, begin by > telling you that they are going to tell you all about what really > happened, that it really wasn't so bad, and that it really wasn't > their fault anyway, so you shouldn't blame them. Over the course > of the play, you learn what they did, and realize that it was > horrifying. I don't want to give too much away. I've thought about this for several weeks now to let my feelings mellow after I saw the Saturday performance. After proper simmering I think it boils down to this: "What Really Happened" tries to ride the tiger and gets eaten. I had read and was intrigued by Eric's capsule description (above) before I went, and waited through the 1st act for the rationalization to begin to unfold. The characterizations were strong as were the acting and staging. So it was with considerable dismay that I realized soon after the 2nd act curtain that the central issue in WRH was going to be abortion. I'm aware that the *intended* central issue is rationalization, but abortion is so horrifying and such a societal hot button that it instantly takes center stage, drastically upstaging the more subtle issues purportedly at the heart of the piece. >From that point on I squirmed. When I saw one of the main characters for whom the playwright and actors had carefully crafted my sympathy abruptly transformed into a monster before my eyes, cold-bloodedly and graphically describing the nauseating clinical details of late term partial birth abortion, I fought back a momentary urge to walk. But clearly the piece had engaged my mind and my heart, albeit negatively, and I needed to stay. The discussion afterwards was interesting and instructive: Eric quipped in response to an inquiry as to why he wrote the piece that he had been alone, away from his family, lonely, and wanted to write a really dark, dismal piece. Eric, you succeeded. Clearly this dark, dismal piece isn't an anti-abortion diatribe, but it would work very well as one. -- Scott Tarbet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 31 Jan 2001 10:56:37 -0700 >This criticism is very curious to me. What's wrong with everything turning >out okay, resolving all the consequences? Personally, I feel an author is >sloppy if he or she doesn't tie up the loose ends in a fictional story. Am I >the only one who feels that way? Isn't that a characteristic of escapist >literature? Isn't scifi mostly escapist in nature?Does my taste tend toward >the juvenile on this issue? Help! > >Richard Hopkins I strongly agree with you on this, Richard. A novel is a work of art, not a slice of life, which is often sloppy and tedious in places and frustrating and unsatisfying. That isn't what I want in a novel, especially, as you say, in something I read for pleasure. I am very much disturbed by the society I live in, and I don't want my reading to be tainted by the persistently pervasive notion that fiction must, willy-nilly, reflect the grimness and horror of what the evening news thrusts in our faces. H'mmm, this feels familiar--we had a lengthy discussion on this issue several months ago on this list. We had to work hard to accept the viewpoints of people who had very different opinions about this matter. I hope we don't get into another long argument here. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Michael RITCHEY, _Disoriented_ (Review) Date: 31 Jan 2001 11:16:23 -0700 (MST) > > You [D. michael] and I suffer from the same disease. As SF fans, we've read the best > the genre has to offer. Once you've worshipped at the feet of the > masters, it's very difficult to find solace in the works of lesser > mortals. I've seen too many well-produced plays in my life to ever be > satisfied again with a Road Show. > > Thom Duncan Thom - I'm with you on that - I am the same way - after having read teh best (and worst) SF has to offer - Disoriented left me angry and embittered. However - at the same time - your last comemnt bothered me - i've seen wonderful plays - but I could be satisfied with a road show because I only expect so much from one. Road shows are curious beasts, but they are a genre all their own - so I don't even compare them to professional or even semi-professional community theatre. However - Disoriented was not like a Road show. It is put in the guise of serious Mormon SF - and after haveing been exposed to Orson Scott Card, Dave Wolverton/Farland, M. Shayne Bell, and even Gerald Lund (not as good as the previous, but still fairly good - Lund seems to know his way around SF a bit better than Ritchey, who is still taking cues from the pre-Golden age of SF days). Ritchey's main problem, I've decided, is that he didn't stick with what he does well. I must say he had a few well-plotted action scenes. If he had taken a cue from Edgar Rice Burroughs and decide to only give characterization and moral ponderings the most cursory token attempts and instead stayed focused on what he did well (which was action and a fairly decent scientific premise) he may have done better. But he tried to do things he still needs work on learning how to do - and he tried to do them more often then what he does well. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm