From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #51 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Friday, May 26 2000 Volume 01 : Number 051 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:49:47 -0600 From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] swimwear in Mormon literature This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFC650.16F1EC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm new to the list, and intended to lurk for a bit, but I think I've = got an answer to the swimwear question brought up earlier. (By way of = intros, I write mostly novels, tinker in articles and essays, and stay = at home with my three little ones.)=20 As a kid in the early 80's (and as a BYU brat) I'd go swimming at the RB = with my family. Back then they issued what was affectionately called the = "whale suit." It was cut straight across at the bottom, and the black, = bulky material was thick and absorbent--when wet the suit would = literally hang off your body (not exactly the modest look they had been = going for). As a result, the straight cut felt like "pant legs." Women = would roll up the extra material just for mobility, or sometimes request = a suit two sizes too small in hopes it would fit decently when wet. In = the late 80's (I'm pretty sure it was 87 or 88--someone who attended BYU = then might know for sure), they got new suits with new material and a = new cut. They used the same ones when I graduated in 95: blue, with a = slightly rounded cut around the leg, and (if I remember right) a BYU = logo. Hope this helps! Annette Lyon - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFC650.16F1EC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm new to the list, and intended to = lurk for a=20 bit, but I think I've got an answer to the swimwear question brought up = earlier.=20 (By way of intros, I write mostly novels, tinker in articles and essays, = and=20 stay at home with my three little ones.)
 
As a kid in the early 80's (and as a = BYU brat) I'd=20 go swimming at the RB with my family. Back then they issued what = was=20 affectionately called the "whale suit." It was cut straight across = at the=20 bottom, and the black, bulky material was thick and absorbent--when wet = the suit=20 would literally hang off your body (not exactly the modest look = they had=20 been going for). As a result, the straight cut felt like "pant legs." = Women=20 would roll up the extra material just for mobility, or sometimes request = a suit=20 two sizes too small in hopes it would fit decently when wet. In the late = 80's=20 (I'm pretty sure it was 87 or 88--someone who attended BYU then might = know for=20 sure), they got new suits with new material and a new cut. They used the = same=20 ones when I graduated in 95: blue, with a slightly rounded cut around = the leg,=20 and (if I remember right) a BYU logo. Hope this helps!
 
Annette Lyon
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFC650.16F1EC60-- ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:30:37 EDT From: CDoug91957@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Comments? (Reading the Scriptures) (resend) In a message dated 00-05-25 14:12:15 EDT, you write: << While I don't consciously feel that critical review of the scriptures has anything inherently wrong with it, I think that I (many of us?) have some of that baggage to which Kathleen refers. >> Maybe we could avoid exciting sensitivity to the word "criticism" by using "exegesis" or "close reading." Colin Douglas cdoug91957@aol.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:29:02 -0700 From: eedh Subject: Re: [AML] Creative Writing Master's Programs I sent this message to Darvell earlier today, but thought maybe someone else might be interested in it: Vermont College, part of Norwich University, offers an MFA in Writing. Here's a few quotes from a sheet in their information packet: "Unlike most writing programs--which require you to live on or near the campus during your enrollment--our Program brings students together with a diverse group of experienced writers and teachers from around the United States twice each year for brief, 12-day residencies on our Montpelier, Vermont campus. "Designed to be noncompetitive and nurturing, workshops, lectures and readings encourage you to participate as a peer, learning from faculty who see themselves as writers who are simply further along in their careers. "Following the residency, you return to your home and complete an individualized, semester-long study plan from the comfort of your own writing place." "...we invite you to contact us with any questions you might have. Even better, we will provide you with a list of graduates in your area who can talk about what it's like to be a student." "If you have questions, please contact Louise Crowley at (802) 828-8840. Or, if you prefer, you may address email queries to crowley@norwich.edu." >From what I understand, the program takes a couple years to complete. Hope this information is helpful. - -Beth Hatch - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:40:01 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Ethics Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > I agree with everyone about the sanctity of the artist's vision (i.e. "Can > you imagine someone telling Mozart or Beethoven that they put the wrong > note, or an incorrect musical phrase, in their symphony? Can you imagine > someone telling Picasso that he put the eyes in the wrong place, but the > editor fixed it for him?"). But we are not, in large part, talking about > geniuses here, but even if we were, can you imagine telling T.S. Eliot that > he should have cut massive sections out of "The Waste Land?" > > Wait a minute, that did happen, and the guy who made the cuts was Ezra > Pound. Some people argue that T.S. Eliot's career would have never taken > off without Pound's help. Stein did similar things for Hemingway. Gordon > Lish for Ray Carver. The fact that something is art is no excuse for lax > standards. No question authors need the help of an editor to improve their writing. The unacceptable thing is when the editor makes changes without the author's knowledge, input, or consent. I don't imagine editors are always geniuses either. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:54:36 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Creative Writing Master's Programs Darvell wrote: > For over a year now, I have felt compelled to return to college to get a > masters degree in creative writing to further my career as well as my > talents in the LDS writing world. I've been working for 8 years in my > field as a computer programmer with my BS degree in computer science, but > now I want to expand my education by getting a master degree in writing. > > Does anybody know how I can go about doing this? The question I'd be asking is, WHY are you doing this? In my opinion, one of the most useless things you could do to become a writer is to get a degree in English or writing or whatever. What do those professors know about writing in the real world? You'd be better off getting a degree in almost anything else, so that you actually have something to write about. Otherwise you could end up adding to the endless piles of "literary" works about starving authors or college professors with mid-life crises, because that's what you would know about. If you got a degree in anthropology, you could write stories about primitive people. If you got a degree in physics, you could write clever and convincing technological science fiction. If you got a degree in mythology, you could write fantasies basd on ancient myths. If you got a degree in history you could write historical novels and bring the past to life for people. Psychology, and you could write horror or psychological thrillers. The possibilities are endless, as long as you study something that isn't about writing. My attitude seems to be a common one among many accomplished authors, not least with Orson Scott Card. He says, get hold of the English department's reading list and read all that great literature, but for heaven's sake, don't listen to one word about what the English department says about how to write. If you want to get a master's degree, that's wonderful. But never think that there is any correlation between a degree and a writing career. Especially between a literary degree and a writing career. Your career would be furthered to a much greater degree if you spent that time and energy writing than jumping through academic hoops to get a degree. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:15:43 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Where's our LDS Amy Tan? Jonathan Langford wrote: > Scott Parkin, in years past, has raised > concerns on this list to the effect that having been raised in Chicago, he > feels no real affinity for Intermountain West/Wasatch Front culture, and > assumptions that these represent how Mormonism ought to be depicted in > literature leave him out. Me too. I was raised in Minnesota, and although I am living in Utah now, I ain't no Utah Mormon! All the traditional trappings of Utah culture bore me. Pioneers bore me. Cowboys bore me. Farmers bore me. Native Americans bore me. Desolate landscapes bore me. Environmental issues bore me. Small towns bore me. If these are what Mormonism is about, Mormonism bores me. But I have never been bored by Mormonism, so there must be more to it than that. The problem is, the biggest market for LDS art is Utah. So the artist's audience is mostly Utah culture Mormons. Does this mean that I as a Utah outsider have a "white man's burden" to expand the horizons of the art of all you boring Utah Mormons? (Please notice tongue in cheek.) - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:30:53 PDT From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Ethics Thom wrote: >I am dead serious. If an editor makes changes that make me look like a >better writer, I welcome it. I'm more than willing to accept credit for >a particular passage that I may not have actually written. OTOH, if the >change makes me look worse, I fight tooth and nail for my POV. > >You've seen my musical PROPHET. There's one scene in there of which I >wrote not a word, neither lyric nor dialogue. Nevertheless, it is a >good scene, audiences seemed to like it. My credits say "Book and Lyrics >by Thom Duncan." I'm perfectly content to have people think I wrote the >scene and the lyrics to the song (I did edit it to make it "fit" better, >though.) Another scene, which I did write, was suggested by my >director. I wrote it, the show was better. So what if it wasn't my >idea? Also, a key line that Joseph speaks was suggested to my by Marvin >Payne. It was a good line, it provided a missing piece in Joseph's >characterization, so I kept it in the final version. Ok, true. Most writers accept suggestions and then take credit for them. But I think the spirit of this relationship (between the suggestion giver and the suggestion taker) is such that this is ok--the suggestions are _meant_ to be taken (or not taken), and usually the giver doesn't expect credit--though often there is some acknowledement made to those who help with a piece (especially if it's a book, where there is space for an acknowledgements page). What you're suggesting, though, Thom, is very disturbing to me. You're flaunting a sense of dishonesty (which I'm not sure is intended--I don't know you well enough). You don't seem to give any nod to the notion that one must give credit where credit is due; if the credit is good, you want it--if not, you don't (in fact you'll fight against it). What kind of priciple are you promoting? Perhaps you're just trying to provoke conversation--I have a friend who enjoys the reactions he gets when he says mildly shocking things--but do you really mean to stand by the implications of your post? How would you feel about Isaiah taking credit for what he wrote, because it was good, without acknowledging God? How do you feel about the possibility that 'editors' (posing as translators) could have altered the scriptures to say something other than what God said, because they thought it sounded better? If either of these scenarios bothers you, you must not really believe what you say you believe...If neither of these scenarios bothers you, well, I'm not sure how, then, to react... Jason Steed ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:31:13 EDT From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Creative Writing Master's Programs In a message dated 00-05-25 21:12:06 EDT, you write: << Darvell, I forgot to mention this to you before, but there's a school in Vermont (the name escapes me) that offers a degree program through correspondence--I think you have to fly to Vermont once a year for a week-long workshop, or something like that--and it's a very well-respected program, too. You might look into it... >> The school is called Norwich University. It provides a two year program that you visit the campus twice a year for eleven days in a row. You need to go to the school five times and you get to help design you course of study with your instructors. I'm researching the program right now and one of the nice things about is you don't have to take your GRE. They offer two different programs one for children writing and the other adult. In the children writing area they have some very respectable staff like the highly awarded Susan Fletcher and Newberry Honor winner Norma Fox Mazer. They also have visiting authors like Newberry Winner and some of my favorite authors like Katherine Patterson and Lois Lowry. There website is www.norwich.edu/vermontcollege and they have a ton of detailed information there. Lisa J. Peck - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:35:57 -0700 From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] Editing Ethics > I've decided that good editors are to be hugged on sight--they can save us > from ourselves, or drive us to new heights. Bad editors should > be mugged on > sight... or simply edited--perhaps their writing hand? > Steve I agree, Steve! Here's a hug for Valerie Holladay and JoAnn Jolley! (Can I do that on this list??) Lynn Gardner [MOD: Virtual hugs not merely tolerated but encouraged!] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:35:58 -0700 From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] Re: Sexuality in LDS Literature > I can understand why some members feel uncomfortable reading about sex > in literature. And maybe even mildly suggestive literature puts > hard-to-control thoughts and desires into some people's heads and they > know that they are better off just avoiding it altogether. > Beth Hatch And this is probably the hardest part of all...some DO have that problem, while others could read something very suggestive and not have a second thought about it or any kind of improper visualization. My purpose in writing about my husband and wife characters is to portray the fun married people can have, the joy they can feel being together. I guess I'm trying to educate my younger readers that marriage can be "all in all," as opposed to what many of them are seeing in their parents' strained relationships. We have a new bishop in my ward who is incredulous at the number of problem marriages he's having to deal with. My hope is that through fiction, I can show that, of course, there are problems, but by communication, empathy, work, and lots of love, these can be overcome. I want to help this new generation find what my husband and I have after 42 years of marriage. No, it wasn't always like this. We had those not-so-wonderful times, but they made the good times that much better. (Burning away the dross leaving pure gold!) I don't want to be sexually blatant. I'm not comfortable writing love scenes at all. I simply want to convey the wonders of a relationship, how a caress from someone you love and who loves you can make a bad day go away and can heal a whole lot of ills. I'm a believer in "closing the bedroom door." But I also want to show that love begins in the kitchen instead of the bedroom. Lynn Gardner - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:36:00 -0700 From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] Editing Ethics Fiction is art, and the artist ought to have complete control over how > it is presented. If the editor (representing the publisher who is > forking out the money for publication) wants something changed because > he thinks it affects the quality, impact, or marketability of the book, > he has the right to say so, but always, always it should be the author > who fixes it, or at least agrees to the fix...But never should the change just be made without the author's consent, and even worse, knowledge. To me that's immoral. > D. Michael Martindale Amen! When an author makes mistakes that need to be corrected, the editor should discuss these with the author before changing them. Sometimes an editor in a hurry, or scanning for grammatical or punctuation errors could miss the literary intent of the author. Deleting a single sentence, without a careful read, can be disastrous for a carefully worded paragraph that the author slaved over for two hours -- constructing it exactly as he/she intended the reader to receive it. But thank heaven for editors who care about that single word being plural or singular or where the comma really belongs!! And thank heaven for editors who make us better than we might have been. Lynn Gardner - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:50:39 -0600 From: Matthew Hamby Subject: Re: [AML] Sexuality in LDS Lit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------79608618C517686BBD540F52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thom Duncan wrote: > Granted, I know of many other cases of friends caught in adultery which > didn't turn out this well, where the new wife or husband was much worse > than the first one, etc. But in this case, the idea that adultery > *always* has a downside seems not to be true. I think that it is important not to confuse a presumably and apparently happy ending with there being no downside. The two individuals involved in Thom's account are both happier now, and enjoy their lives and each other more fully now than they ever previously did, and for that I rejoice for and with them. In my experience, however, that just frankly does not equate with there being no down side to the whole story. I can think of a good number of reasons why I think that that is the case, but in particular I am thinking of consequences that reach beyond their individual happiness. If their marriage produced any children, for example, are we to infer from the statement that there was no downside, that those children suffered in no way from the adultery and ensuing divorce? To say thus seems naive and inaccurate. Regardless of how miserable the marriage was beforehand, it is very difficult for me to picture children preferring Daddy's infidelity and divorce over "Mommy and Daddy changing and just getting all better." Note that I don't refer to childrens' realistic expectations, but expectations don't need to be realistic to be real. Personally, I am an advocate of divorce in many circumstances. There are times when a marriage just doesn't work out, and everyone would be happier if it just ended. That doesn't mean that there is no down side to its coming to an end, and it certainly doesn't mean that unhappiness proceeding from infidelity preceding the divorce is nullified by an otherwise happy ending. I understand, in a sense, what Thom is saying, but if I were to read a story (or a post on the AML list, apparently) that portrayed there being, literally, no down side to any story regarding infidelity, I would discount it as fantastic and unreal. Glossed over at best. (There's the literature tie in . . .) In the end, whether the resulting couple/couples are happier than they were previously or not, I can't imagine a believable situation in which infidelity occurs and no one, at any time, suffers. Betrayal does not open the doors of happiness. The eventual results of betrayal may turn out to be pleasing, but the betrayal itself is not. In the midst of betrayal, the feelings are merely those of betrayal, to the individuals concerned and to those unfortunate enough to get caught in the blast radius. A happy ending does not take away the feelings of grief in the midst of the trouble, it just makes them easier to bear once the healing takes place. - -- Matthew Hamby mdh25@byu.edu icq Pager # 4779109@pager.mirabilis.com "Do what you love, the money will follow" - Marsha Sinetar - --------------79608618C517686BBD540F52 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="mdh25.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Matthew Hamby Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mdh25.vcf" begin:vcard n:Hamby;Matthew tel;pager:n/a tel;cell:n/a tel;fax:n/a tel;home:(801) 223-9935 tel;work:(801) 378-2600/378-7428 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;757 East 1350 South;Orem;UT;84602;Yemen version:2.1 email;internet:mdh25@byu.edu x-mozilla-cpt:;26656 fn:Matthew Hamby end:vcard - --------------79608618C517686BBD540F52-- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:10:33 -0500 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Ethics Jason Steed wrote: > Yes, there are many sloppy writers out there. And if they can get help in > workshops, from peers, from editors, they should. And often they are better > off for it. But that's all in collaboration--I think what most of us (or > myself, at least) were upset about was the fact that some of this 'editing' > takes place without the author's consent, or even knowledge. Don't you agree > that's wrong? No, not in all instances, because sometimes sloppy writers get trucculent even when they are dead wrong. It is sometimes necessary to just have at it as an editor. In many cases making editorial suggestions is like trying to comment on someone's kissing. Writers get embarrassed when someone points out that they've been sloppy or careless or less than diligent. In the case of Lish and Carver, Carver fought some of Lish's revisions, even though Lish was ultimately right. Yes, consent is the issue. But some writers have blind spots that they fight to keep. Some people simply don't know what is needed and react poorly to suggestions. This prompts some (but not all) editors to just make the necessary changes on the sly. Who wants the fight when the deadline is hanging over your head. Now, adding your own writing (as was mentioned) is a big problem. An editor is obliged to keep a writer's style in tact. Some writers, on the other hand, need to chill a little and try to see when aid is being rendered. Still, one must defend one's darlings, which doesn't mean insisting that they are angels when they are not. Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:33:10 -0500 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Where's our LDS Amy Tan? Sarah Smith wrote: > She's not a fiction writer but Terry Tempest William's work seems to be > well known and enjoyed among non-LDS readers. . . I haven't read her new book, > Leap, but the reviews seem to indicate that this book is explicitly LDS, and > as all her writing is, human. I have just finished Terry's new book LEAP, and it is something every one of us should read. To say that it is explicitly LDS is to miss the point to a certain degree. It is fully LDS. It is Terry, and as always, it will engage some and annoy others. The more copies of that book we buy, incidentally, the more likely it will be to see Mormon writing taking it's part in the New York Pantheon. In an interivew I am working on with Brian Evenson, there is a section where he discusses why Mormon literature hasn't taken off at a national level. The gist of it is this: during the last forty years, Mormons have fought tooth and nail to be mainstream, so we are no longer peculiar, and in many respects we have lost our cultural identites as peculiar people. I think he's right, and Terry's new book brings us back to the every-day mysticism that is (or rather was) part of the early church. It is insufficient to write about Mormons in the suburbs anymore or Mormons crossing the plains. There are more members now outside the States than inside, but our literature does not reflect that. It should. What about the Mormons in Compton? in Bangladesh? Saudi Arabia? Furthermore, we must write about what makes us different, that's what the Irish writers have done, and the African ones, and the Carribian, and the East Indian. We also have to be less concerned with pleasing the orthodoxy. Milton did not do that, nor did Dante, nor did Shakespeare, nor did Flannery O'Connor. The big Mormon book is not going to apologize for LDS values. Stegner told us that years ago, and it is still true. LEAP does not apologize or evangelize, not in the least. That is one of its many virtues. Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 05:00:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Sexuality in LDS Lit I based this on Joseph Smith, as a young > man of fourteen, and, by his own admission, as sin-laden, if not more > so, than other young men his own age, having a vision of the Father and > Son. > > Thom [Duncan] > But doesn't Joseph say that he was not guilty of any heinous sin but merely guilty of frivolity and light heartedness? Even in his other (Non PGP) versions where he says he is sinful, he never says he has comitted sexual sin (which the scriptures are very clear on being next to murder in seriousness). - --Ivan Wolfe - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:34:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Darlene Young Subject: [AML] Realistic Art (was: Time and God) Marvin Payne says, "Heaven is still out of reach, and so are most of the answers." I'm not sure I can explain this right, but I feel that so many LDS writers believe the opposite of this, or at least think they should, or at least write like they do--and this belief (that we know most of the answers) is false. Thus its incorporation into story, song or drama makes the artwork false. When I read/see/hear such artwork, I feel manipulated. I feel I am the object of propaganda. In my own writing, it is a constant battle to eliminate this "everything works out for the best if only you are righteous" sort of overtone because I grew up on it and it is really a part of me. But when I can eliminate it, my work is so much better. My stories and poetry become more realistic, more a slice of life that others can relate to and respond to without feeling preached to. And I think that it is in the true observation of reality that we find God, in the appreciation of things as they are. Too often we get so caught up in "eternal perspective" that we overlook the aspect of faith that deals in the present. Literature can build this kind of faith. We see so many examples of "faithbuilding" literature which works by showing the happily ever after, the future blessings of righteousness. But think of the times you have been moved by the beauty of individual moments in literature or art. That's the greatest thing about art: it puts a frame around moments so that we can stand back and appreciate them, individually. Summing up: let's remember that we DON'T have all the answers. Even when we have a testimony of "happily ever after," we certainly don't understand how it works in any life, and especially in our own, until we are done with this life and move beyond the veil. Our art is better when we lose the moralizing attitude of being all-knowing and right. ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:49:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Sexuality in LDS Lit Throughout this conversation we have mentioned examples in literature in which sexual acts were referred to without being described. I would like to hear from some of you readers some examples of literature in which sex acts were actually described in a way that you felt enriched the reading and did not in any way offend you. Also, I am interested in examples of sex acts described within LDS literature and whether you felt they were integral to the stories they were part of or whether they were non-essential (or, on the other hand, whether embellishment would have improved the piece). Anyone? One that comes to mind to me is a short story by Neal Chandler in his _Benediction_ collection (and unfortunately I can't remember the name of the story) in which the entire framework of the story is built around a sex act between a husband and wife. Through what happens in the bed we see all of the problems in their marriage. As I read this story, I squirmed a little because I knew that if I had been viewing it in a film I would be required by conscience to turn it off. But I feel that the story was amazingly effective and truthful and it has remained with me (no, not just because of the pictures it created!) and affected my life. Come to think of it, there is another story in the same collection in which a married couple is desperately trying to find a place in their house to have sex and not be interrupted by the kids. It's a delightful story and a great example of sex within our culture. I'd like to hear more examples. ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:52:57 -0600 From: "Jim and Laurel Brady" Subject: Re: [AML] Creative Writing Master's Programs I guess it's time for me to de-lurk because I'm going to ask a questions on this topic, and I don't want to just barge in as a perfect stranger. My name is Laurel Brady, and I'm a writer--first of three novels out this fall from HarperCollins, and a couple of projects in the works with an LDS publisher (which I should probably be working on, instead of surfing...). I'm also a mom, with eight children. In the back of my mind, I've always wanted to get a master's degree, and assumed BYU would be the only logical choice since it's close. However, BYU requires a level of proficiency in a foreign language before you can apply. I've studied three foreign languages, but none to the level they require, and it's been twenty+ years with no usage, so I've retained little. I assumed I would be excluded from applying because of that--except I've heard of a couple of people who've been through the program without any foreign language proficiency at all--including my own sister in law. When I asked her how she did it, she shrugged and said, "I just applied and they accepted me. Nobody said anything about a language." Does anyone on the list have any info about this requirement being waived? If it's possible, I'd like to get the degree because the more I learn, the more I find there is to know. Laurel S. Brady - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:57:00 -0600 From: "Jerry Enos" Subject: Re: [AML] Sexuality in LDS Lit Thom wrote: > > I have tried to see the downside to adultery in the case of these two > people but have yet to find any. When they converge at the weddings of > their children, they are kinder to each other than they ever were while > married. They both are more content then they ever had been together. [snip] > > I may try to write the story someday, including the act of adultery > (which I would have to imagine -- the man is a close friend, but he > didn't provide details!). In writing the story of your friend won't you have to protray the heartache that he and his new wife must have gone through to get back into church activity. Isn't that the consequences of adultry, whether or not the eventual outcome is good? Konnie Enos - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:38:39 -0700 From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] Sexual Structure in Art (was: Sexuality in LDS Lit) deborah weagel wrote: > > Much has been written on the list about sex as the subject matter. I'd > like to address the concept of the sexual act as being a structural element > in fiction. It's fascinating to think that the human artistic impulse might be rooted in the primal biological impulse to create life. Given the passion that art can evoke in both the artist and the recipient, this seems reasonable to me. There is nothing more fundamental than sexual instinct. In fact, it probably touches every facet of our lives. Whether it is literature or music, people do seem to respond to the slow build-up of tension followed by a sudden release. Cetainly that's explicitly true for the blues (and its rock and country derivatives) with its repetition of verbal and musical phrases as well as its structured progression of chords. It is also interesting to note that creating art, like having children, is a way to achieve earthly immortality--to leave something of yourself behind when you move on. I'm sure that also ties in to the biological survival instinct. Whether "poly-orgastic" literature or music will have as much artistic power as traditional forms that work toward a single climax, I have no idea. I suppose, being a man, I'm ill-equipped to either create or enjoy such a structure, at least at the primal biological level. But it seems to me if art is rooted in sexual biology, then women's creation of poly-orgastic art would be spontaneous and natural. You would see differences in pattern in the works of men and women. Can you give examples of popular music or literature that you believe has this structure? It is certainly true that certain genres like romance seem to be dominated by women. I've also noted that certain kinds of hard rock music seem to appeal almost exclusively to males. Perhaps "testosterone rock" is a form that resonates more in the male sexual experience. For a contrasting view, you migh look at Camille Paglia's book _Sexual Personae_. She also believes that art is inseparably tied to the erotic. But as I recall, her thesis is that creating art is a male or "Apollonian" impulse (although she may have been focusing on visual art, I can't recall). According to Paglia, the urge to create, to improve nature, to give hard-edged form to natural chaos is masculine. The female impulse is more like nature itself--chaotic, unpredicatable, messy--containing at the same time the ability to create and nurture life and the ability to destroy it as a predator devours its prey. Of course, according to Jungian psychology, we are all a mixture of the masculine and feminine. So this doesn't mean that a woman can't create art, only that it is something driven by the masculine within her. Paglia's characterization of masculine and feminine energy aren't new. They are well-known archetypes that run through many cultures. I don't know if I buy her premise, but it's another interesting lens through which to look at the artistic universe. - -- Rob Pannoni Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #51 *****************************