From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #55 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Thursday, June 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 055 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:57:47 -0400 From: Shawn Ambrose Subject: RE: [AML] Where's our LDS Amy Tan? Todd Robert Peterson wrote: "There are more members now outside the States than inside, but our literature does not reflect that. It should. What about the Mormons in Compton? in Bangladesh? Saudi Arabia?" Annette Lyon replied: "There's a lot more to us as a people than "Utah Mormons." Even so, I know that if I venture into writing another book located elsewhere, it may not have a prayer to see the light of day in this market." The inability to market outside the Wasatch Front has everything to do with money. Mormons exist in Utah in sufficient concentration to financially support Mormon bookstores. Beyond that, not only Mormon bookstores, but Mormon bookstores that carry books other than Deseret Book and Bookcraft. Here in Ohio if you want LDS books, you either join Deseret Book's book club, you have relatives in Utah send you books, or you go to the bookstore near the temple-for us, a two hour drive to Columbus, Ohio. We can't afford to run to the bookstore often. Because it's a four hour round trip, when we go to the temple, we usually don't have time to go to the bookstore also. This almost completely eliminates the vast number of Mormons who can't or don't travel to the temple. I recognize the problem, but until we become either much wealthier, that we could buy more books, or become sufficient numbers of Mormons to support bookstores en masse, the problem will not change. Perhaps a philanthropist would be willing to support a bookstore, but that's a huge investment, only to lose money. Melinda L. Ambrose - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:32:10 EDT From: Derek1966@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Where's our LDS Amy Tan? Thom Duncan wrote: <> There was an interesting column by Jerry Johnston in the June 28, 1989 Deseret News entitled "Waiting for a great Mormon Novelist" that spoke about this very idea. I clipped the article for my files. I don't know that something this old would be available on search sites, but I could type it and post it if anyone was interested. John Perry - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 00:07:42 EDT From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN 'Gods' paints poor picture of Mormons: Seattle WA Times From: Kent Larsen To: Mormon News Subject: MN 'Gods' paints poor picture of Mormons: Seattle WA Times 29May00 A4 Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 07:10:00 -0400 [From Mormon-News] 'Gods' paints poor picture of Mormons Seattle WA Times 29May00 A4 http://www.seattletimes.com/news/entertainment/html98/gods29_20000529.html by John Hartl: Seattle Times movie reviewer SEATTLE, WASHINGTON -- The Seattle Times' John Hartl isn't too impressed with the popular LDS movie "God's Army" which opened this past weekend in the Seattle area. Hartl gives the film just one and one-half stars, but doesn't go very far in explaining why. But Hartl does give a description of some of the scenes in the movie, claiming that the movie doesn't paint a pretty picture of Mormons. Hartl focuses on some of the moments when the missionaries in the movie act like teenagers, but also portrays other elements of their lives as not pretty. He says the missionaries "coerce" a reluctant Catholic to accept Mormon concepts and focuses on other places where the missionaries are faced with unresolved doctrinal issues. But while Hartl focuses on these issues in the film, he never comes out and says exactly what he thinks doesn't work. His biggest hint is at the end of the article, when he notes that the film's writer, producer and director, Richard Dutcher, is "mostly preaching to the converted." He goes on saying, "And when his character insists that no one here is out to convert anyone, he's at his least convincing." >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:14:41 EDT From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Divorce (was: Sexuality in LDS Literature) Thom: I have tried to see the downside to adultery in the case of these two people but have yet to find any. _______________ In your story of their story, will you be able to include the grief and torment they went through as they lost their Church membership (or probably were at least disfellowshipped)? Will you include their struggle to obtain forgiveness from the Savior. Will you discuss the blessings they missed along the way, the sleepless nights, the anguish of wondering if the Lord still loved them? Will you consider the price they had to pay to merit the blessings of the atonement? Will you describe the peace they finally obtained as they became ready to be readmitted/ returned to fellowship, along with the wondering and wait after baptism (if required) until their blessings were restored? It will make a great story. Feel free to use the outline (unless I get it written first)! :-> (Actually, even if I get it written first.) Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:36:18 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Where's our LDS Mark Twain? Thom Duncan wrote: > Is it really possible for the "Great LDS Writer" to be an active, > mainstream, member of the Church? > IMO, the great LDS writer (i.e., that LDS writer who will successfully > speak to the outside world about us) will be someone who is comfortable > spinning at the outer edges of Mormonism, rather than someone completely > involved. He/She may be marginally active, if at all, and will have a > generally positive understanding of the church but will be sufficiently > removed from orthodoxy so as to be able to look at the religion and > culture with an objective eye. A person afraid of "giving offense," > especially to their leaders, will not have enough artistic drive, imo, > to achieve greatness outside of the LDS church. The idea that great literature has to be negative literature doesn't sit well with me. Ah, but it has to tell the truth. Well then, the idea that telling the truth has to be negative also doesn't sit well with me. Is _Tom Sawyer_ a great book? I would classify it as such. Does it show the people of Missouri with all their foibles? Sure. Is it negative? Not even. Was it offensive to the people it depicts? I would think only to the most easily offended. Did Mark Twain become a Missouri outsider looking in to write it? _Tom Sawyer_ was a book written by an author who cared very much about--I would say loved--the people he wrote about, foibles and all. I don't get the impression it was written by someone condescendingly looking down from the outside. I don't see why a similar book couldn't be written about Mormons, lovingly showing them in all their human glory without giving any hint that the core of their existence is being criticized. In fact, I question whether some of these overly critical books about Mormons are honest. As much as I've praised Peterson's _Backslider_, I don't think it represents an accurate picture of typical Mormons. I don't think it communicates to outsiders what being a Mormon is all about--in fact, I think it reinforces an inaccurate impression that we're a bunch of semi-loony cultists. Is this sort of thing necessary for literature to be great? - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:36:53 -0700 From: eedh Subject: [AML] Re: Galaxy Quest D. Michael Martindale wrote: "Howard's advice to aspiring writers is to find the perfect day job. He says that corporate America is extremely inefficient, and there are many jobs out there that offer you lots of free time while on duty that you can use to write. They're not career track jobs by any means, he warns, but if you're serious about becoming a writer, you should get one of them. I agree with him completely. I ought to know: I have one of those very jobs." Please, I'm dying to know. What are these jobs? - -Beth Hatch - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 06:53:22 -0700 From: "Kenny Kemp" Subject: [AML] RE: aml-list-digest V1 #54 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 8:43 PM To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #54 Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:57:07 -0600 From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] _Galaxy Quest_ > one of the screenwriters of _Galaxy Quest_ is LDS. I don't > remember his name * [MOD: Can someone provide more information about this author?] Dave Howard was in my ward when I lived in L.A. several years ago. We were both writing screenplays. _Galaxy Quest_ is not Dave's first screenplay; he is primarily a playright. His story of _Galaxy Quest_ (originally titled _Captain Starshine_) is instructive and a little depressing. The truth be known, Dave is a great writer whose screenplay was 95 percent re-written by an A-list Hollywood writer and Dave had to threaten a lawsuit to get his name on the film. This is an old story: a creative, unique screenplay gets into the hands of a studio committee who has no artistic sense whatsoever. They fear that because the writer is an unknown, the things they find funny or fascinating or revealing in the screenplay are really not funny or fascinating or revealing and so they hire a _real_ writer with a proven track record. This is code for someone whose movie happened to do well, but no one really knows why any movie works. Why was _Wild Wild West_ such a flop? Or _Maverick_, which was written by the godfather of screenwriters, William Goldman (_Princess Bride_)? The bottom line is Dave's experience is not at all unique and it has happened to more than a few. My hope is that Dave can parlay a screen credit (a huge deal, truly) into an opportunity for his own work to make it to the big screen. SciFi is his favorite genre and he has a few stories there that would make good films. One other word: his play _Adam Alone_ is a true bit of joy. It postulates what would have happened if Eve had eaten the apple and gotten kicked out of the Garden, leaving Adam to live in perpetual innocence, while she got on with life. They continue to communicate across the boundary and it soon becomes clear that while Eve's live is hard and often unhappy, Adam is the one who made the wrong choice. [Kenny Kemp] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:42:23 -0600 From: "Jerry Enos" Subject: [AML] Divorce As the child of divorce I have to respond. The pain does end and I would rather see my parents seperate but happy then together and in pain. Also their are reasons to divorce for the children. My step mother finally divorced Dad because he was starting to physically abuse the kids still at home. He had, and still does, verbably abused us for years. Sometimes it is in the best interest of the children to divorce. But no matter why a divorce accures there is always pain when it happens. Just as when a death of a loved one accures, you have to go throu the grief process. What I'd like to see is a good depiction of the effects of divorce without the assumtion that the parents are the only ones affected by it. Like death, the intire family is affected, all the loved ones are. Is there a story out there that shows this? Konnie Enos - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:35:24 -0500 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Where's our LDS Amy Tan? I'm going to speak boldly and in a way that could come across as not only vain but trucculent. Point #1 The primary reason that there is not an LDS Amy Tan is that the audiences don't really want it in large enough numbers, and the publishers know it. There is not enough money out there (or people willing to spend it) to finance the building of a literature. Deseret loved my book of short stories (or said that they did) and so did the editors at Signature, but the former said that there's no market for that kind of thing and the latter said they didn't have any money for it because fiction always loses them money. The stories have been published in Dialogue, have won the Sunstone fiction contest, and will be appearing in Irreantum. Some have even attracted favorable responses, though not publication, from Esquire, StoryQuarterly, and Glimmer Train. Friends of mine, like John Bennion and Margaret Young know what I'm talking about. But still people worry. They worry that they'll lose money on the books, so the books never get made. It's the same everythere, but LDS publishers should let the big books fund the small ones. Without some sort of patronage, the kind of literature of which we've been speaking will *not* take off. The audiences have to be created and somebody has to go out on a limb. Point #2 Jonathan Langford mentioned his distaste for the > the widespread belief, in some circles, that "Mormon literature" must be > literature that is culturally *about* Mormons as a people. This is a very important thing to stamp out. There are almost no Roman Catholic priests in O'Connor's writing, yet she is held up to the world as a Catholic writer. What she has done is integrate the theology at the level of the language and at the thematic level. She writes of grace and salvation and mystery and epiphany, yet her stories are full of "grotesque realism," horrible people who do horrible things. A vital and engaging Mormon literature is going to involve our beliefs on family, salvation, progression, and repentance. It will not try to convert people or hold people to their beliefs. The scriptures are for that purpose. Literature has other jobs, and I think that one of them is to create opportunitites to practice empathy. Point #3 Most of our big time contemporary writers are not fully active in the church (as Thom Duncan pointed out). To name names would be in horrible taste, but suffice it to say, there are at least a half dozen national-level writers who exist on the margins of the church because no room has been made for them. To paraphrase recklessly from the BYU mission statement booklet, "There is no such thing as a risk-free literature (the booklet says "education" in the place of "literature"). The general body of the church does not want either of those things to be true. We are, generally, like sheep: we value safety over risk. This is incomprehensible to me because the riskiest thing any of us have ever done is side with Christ. To have chosen the plan of agency is more dangerous for some than BASE jumping off the Transamerica Tower or free climbing El Capitan in Yosemite. Still, we all made that choice. Why did we all become such ninnies, worrying about art and so forth? The over-availability of credit is going to destroy more temple marriages than any novel or collection of short stories ever will, and how many Saints have four, five, six credit cards but won't read serious fiction because they're scared that it will drain the holiness out of the home. Give me cash on the barrel head and LOLITA any day. Point #4 Barbara Hume said that > One reason I don't read more LDS fiction is that I do NOT want to > read about the Wasatch Front or BYU. I set only one of the twelve stories in my collection in Salt Lake. One is set in the Price area. One is in the mountains Uintahs. One is set outside Brigham City in a polygamist compound. Three are in Arizona. One is in Rwanda. One is in Buenos Aires. One is in Portland, Oregon. One is in Tacoma, Washington. One is in California. I have a friend who is coming back from a mission in Albania. I don't want to hear about the MTC or about any of that stuff I've heard a million times when he comes home. I want to know what it was like to be a missionary who spent his time working in a refugee camp during the NATO operation. To be over there as a missionary in a time of war which was caused by a centuries' old religious conflict, now that will be a good story, even if--I'm sorry to say--he baptized nobody. Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:32:30 -0600 From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Where's our LDS Amy Tan? - -----Original Message----- I don't know if Heavenly Father is really very interested in mortals' fiction--but if he is, we won't have a worthwhile Mormon Amy Tan unless that person is doing all they can to exercise their faith as an artist, while at the same time not knuckling under to the limitations of Mormon culture, which doesn't allow for much good, original, compelling art. Did Heavenly Father create Mormon culture, or did he allow us to create it ourselves by simply taking the safest, least-challenging, lowest-common-denominator road? Satan has already demonstrated many times that he can and will try to get negative Mormon themes into the national consciousness through artistic means. The flip side to that has yet to be done much--and Heavenly Father, in typical fashion, leaves it to us to initiate things. Chris Bigelow I agree with Chris. In fact, Cornerstone is dedicated to finding a Mormon Amy Tan. So if any of you out there think you've got the manuscript that will do it, send it here. We just have to produce the art. I really think the market will take it from there. Richard Hopkins - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:09:16 -0600 From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: FW: [AML] Where's our LDS Amy Tan? - -----Original Message----- From: Thom Duncan To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 9:25 PM Subject: Re: FW: [AML] Where's our LDS Amy Tan? >An active Mormon saying the things about our culture that Amy Tan says >about hers, will be in trouble with somebody, if only the local ward >members who can't believe how Sister Jones can write such sexy love >scenes while still being the Relief Society President, or how Brother >Smith can have that antagonist say "that word" and he being a High >Priest and all. The Chaim Potok of Mormonism will of necessity be an >"insider" outsider, or else he will not have enough objectivity to write >about us in a way that will resonate with non-Mormons. >Thom [Duncan] Okay, so Cornerstone is not looking for an exact duplicate of Amy Tan as a Mormon. :-) Richard Hopkins - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:41:16 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Where's our LDS Amy Tan? Please do type it, if you will. * * * * * * Interested in novels, stories, poems, plays, and films by, for, or about = Mormons? Check out IRREANTUM magazine at www.xmission.com/~aml/irreantum.ht= m. >>> 05/30 8:32 PM >>> There was an interesting column by Jerry Johnston in the June 28, 1989=20 Deseret News entitled "Waiting for a great Mormon Novelist" that spoke = about=20 this very idea. I clipped the article for my files. I don't know that=20 something this old would be available on search sites, but I could type = it=20 and post it if anyone was interested. John Perry - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:25:17 -0600 From: Matthew Hamby Subject: Re: [AML] Where's our LDS Mark Twain? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------F2B9249497E97DBDB79C33BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about Dutcher's "God's Army"? Doesn't that count as an accurate description, looking from the inside. It was certainly a good depiction of typical events in my mission. > Thom Duncan wrote: > > > Is it really possible for the "Great LDS Writer" to be an active, > > mainstream, member of the Church? > > > IMO, the great LDS writer (i.e., that LDS writer who will successfully > > speak to the outside world about us) will be someone who is comfortable > > spinning at the outer edges of Mormonism, rather than someone completely > > involved. He/She may be marginally active, if at all, and will have a > > generally positive understanding of the church but will be sufficiently > > removed from orthodoxy so as to be able to look at the religion and > > culture with an objective eye. A person afraid of "giving offense," > > especially to their leaders, will not have enough artistic drive, imo, > > to achieve greatness outside of the LDS church. - -- Matthew Hamby mdh25@byu.edu icq Pager # 4779109@pager.mirabilis.com "Do what you love, the money will follow" - Marsha Sinetar - --------------F2B9249497E97DBDB79C33BF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="mdh25.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Matthew Hamby Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mdh25.vcf" begin:vcard n:Hamby;Matthew tel;pager:n/a tel;cell:n/a tel;fax:n/a tel;home:(801) 223-9935 tel;work:(801) 378-2600/378-7428 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;757 East 1350 South;Orem;UT;84602;Yemen version:2.1 email;internet:mdh25@byu.edu x-mozilla-cpt:;26656 fn:Matthew Hamby end:vcard - --------------F2B9249497E97DBDB79C33BF-- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:28:11 -0600 From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce My husband and I were just (half) joking about writing a book about divorce. We both were in lifelong, temple marriages that ended at just about the same time. At the time, he was devastated by his divorce, while mine was a long time coming. Neither of us planned on remarriage. But we found each other, and we are happier than we ever thought humanly possible. Further, we are acquainted with many, many people, single and remarried, who say something like that: we had no idea one could be so happy. And even FURTHER, our kids (I say our kids, because that's what we say as a family, but really they're MY kids that have become OUR kids) are much healthier and happier than they've ever been in their life. So what do you think about this great title: _Divorce, A Wonderful Part of the Eternal Plan_ :)? Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 435-637-8744 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:59:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Creative Writing Master's Programs We've talked about the language requirement for admission into an MFA program. Could someone tell me what other requirements to expect? Do I have to have already published? Will a writing sample be required? How hard is it to get into one? ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:43:44 -0600 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Galaxy Quest On Tue, 30 May 2000 23:36:53 -0700, eedh wrote: >D. Michael Martindale wrote: >"Howard's advice to aspiring writers is to find the perfect day job. He >says that corporate America is extremely inefficient, and there are many >jobs out there that offer you lots of free time while on duty that you >can use to write. They're not career track jobs by any means, he warns, >but if you're serious about becoming a writer, you should get one of >them. I agree with him completely. I ought to know: I have one of >those very jobs." > >Please, I'm dying to know. What are these jobs? Off the top of my head: - -Security guard - -Computer operator (the kind that babysits the big mainframes, feeding = them paper or tapes on request) - -Some Executive Secretary positions - -Shipping clerk - -Fireperson Note that all of these jobs are places where a human has to wait for an external signal to begin work. That's the key element. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:47:46 -0700 From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] Where's our LDS Mark Twain? "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > _Tom Sawyer_ was a book written by an author who cared very much > about--I would say loved--the people he wrote about, foibles and all. I > don't get the impression it was written by someone condescendingly > looking down from the outside. > > I don't see why a similar book couldn't be written about Mormons, > lovingly showing them in all their human glory without giving any hint > that the core of their existence is being criticized. In fact, I > question whether some of these overly critical books about Mormons are > honest. As much as I've praised Peterson's _Backslider_, I don't think > it represents an accurate picture of typical Mormons. I don't think it > communicates to outsiders what being a Mormon is all about--in fact, I > think it reinforces an inaccurate impression that we're a bunch of > semi-loony cultists. I like the Tom Sawyer example. Some of the best satirists have a natural affection for the thing they are making fun of. I recently saw _Luminarias_, a small-budget independent comedy about a group of hispanic women negotiating issues of love, race and culture (http://www.sleepinggiantweb.com/luminarias/). The film presents the kind of exagerated stereotypes of latino culture that only an insider can get away with. I saw it with a mostly hispanic audience that hooted and cheered at each depiction of these stereotypes--the young mexican waiter driving around town listening to mexican music in a mariachi outfit and a tricked-out pickup truck, the unemployed relatives living 10 to a room, the rich, respectable uncle who turns out to be a drug dealer, etc.. The film was interesting because it included enough cues for outsiders to understand what was going on but it was even funnier if you caught the insider cultural references. I think you could make a film about mormons using this approach, but church members tend to be so image conscious that I'm not sure they could laugh at themselves in this way, particularly if they know that the film is also intended for outsiders. However, I disagree with your assessment of _The Backslider_. I think it works because we do see ourselves in it, or at least a part of ourselves. Frank is spiritual in his own way, but his spirituality is immature. If you were to use the moral/spiritual development framework in Fowler's _Stages of Faith_, Frank would be stuck at one of the very literal stages typical of young children. We all go through these early stages. And aspects of previous stages often stay with us even though we progress to a more adult-like perspective. The holding on to earlier stages is particularly true in mormonism, where the emphasis is on following the moral guidelines given to us by our leaders (as opposed to developing our own internal moral compass). While I don't know many church members who are as extreme as Frank, I see elements of his perspective in myself and other church members I know. Perhaps we know intellectually that God doesn't work the way Frank envisions Him, but emotionally, Frank's feelings of guilt, his vision of God as a strict taskmaster and his perception that God expects us to sacrifice the pleasures of life still resonate with us. - -- Rob Pannoni Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:03:08 -0600 From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Divorce Jerry and Thom seem to be talking about divorce where there is abuse. What about divorce where there is love, but two people just don't get along? When you write about divorce by LDS people try to see it from the child's *eternal prospective*. My son said, "Dad, you promised this would never happen to our family. Now you've ruined our geneology." Nan P. McCulloch - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:33:37 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Sexuality in LDS Lit On Tue, 23 May 2000 11:15:52 Thom Duncan writes: > is it inconceivable, > for instance, that a Mormon could write a story about Mormons who > have affairs and learn that the person they have the affair with is THE > ONE, not the person they married? Wait a minute, Thom, when did you read my unwritten novel _Purple Twinkies_? It's about two teenagers who live on the streets of Spokane together, get pregnant, get married. Husband joins the military to bring some kind of stability to his life and get professional training. Wife has two more children before she's 20--in a hurry because she's afraid she may have health problems later that will preclude having children. Her testimony and spiritual desires overcome her alienation from the Church and she goes through the temple. Husband is something between a pagan and an atheist and doesn't oppose her going through the temple, but doesn't particularly support or love her. One of his military buddies is an inactive LDS who comes to live with them. Through the wife's influence and testimony he becomes active in the Church again and seeks the Melchizedek priesthood. Through all this the wife has become increasingly alienated from her husband, has been separating herself emotionally from him, and finally thinks of their marriage as over. Then she hops in bed with his army buddy. The two eventually understand what they've done, and at first try to repent on their own, but finally go to their bishops. She's excommunicated, he's not. Eventually they marry. It's unwritten partly because I've been trying to define the story's narrative voice, and partly because of language. It would have the fiercest language this side of That Championship Season (or, Glengarry Glenn Ross, from what Eric Samuelsen has said about David Mamet). There's a lot of abuse in the story. Not much physical abuse, but a lot of sexual exploitation, a lot of head games and emotional battering, and both husband and wife engaging in fierce verbal assaults on each other. That phrase, "engaging in fierce verbal assaults on each other," suggests the complexity of the situation. We think of _engaged_ as a love term, and _engaging_ is a synonym for _charming_, and while I hope the story would be engaging, the language wouldn't be. I have considered different ways of approaching the story, for example, telling it from a parent's pov and not quoting the exchanges, but that only tells us what it's like from the outside. Shortly before reading Thom's piece I recalled the narrator's comment in Thomas Berger's _Little Big Man_ about how he is bowdlerizing the old old man's words, then lets off with a string of profanity, and says, something to the effect of, "That was nothing compared to what he really said." (Can't quote it, loaned my copy years ago before I had read anymore than that forward.) It ocurred to me, why not tell the story from the wife's pov, then I started thinking about opening lines: >>>>> I'm not going to tell you what we said to each other all those hours on the phone. You already know the words anyway, and if I tell you we were yelling and talking about physically impossible things you'll know exactly what we said, and you've probably said them yourself, and if you haven't, get down on your knees and thank the Lord. So if you want to hear dirty words stop reading right now, and go listen to "Me So Horny." <<<<< That defines a rhetorical stance, separates the adult who is writing a story her children will probably read someday from the child she was, and allows the story to be told in frank detail without being overwhelmed by the ugliness of the life she was living. Now I just have to decide if I really want to enter into that world enough to write the story. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:44:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Re: Where's our LDS Amy Tam? So, on plods the Mormon Amy Tan/Mark Twain debate.... Thom made a comment about how the great Mormon Writer will be a outsider or insider on the fringe - so more of a Levi Peterson than an Orson Scott Card. Thom claims that only such a one can be truly Objective. Eugene England once complained about this view as it is held at the U of U. I once heard him say words to the effect that at the U of U they've become convinced only non-religous people can be truly objective about religion because us believers are too close to the source. YET - the same "objective" nonbeleivers would never admit that perhaps the reverse would be true, that believers would then be objective about nonbelief. (personal gripe follows - literary connection is in following paragraph - skip this paragraph and go to the next if you don't want to hear how I've suffered at the hands of liberals): I've come across this attitude before myself, and it usually comes down to "Only athesists (or at least agnostics) can be truly objective in any field. Religous people have accepted an irrational faith and so can never be counted on to be rational." This attitude lost me a debate in high school that I had actually won. It was on abortion, and I was obviously more prepared than my opponent. I had more statistics, studies, and other facts to back me up, while my opponent kept repeating "It's my body" over and over again. Why did I lose? My opponent finally charged that "as a religous beleiver he is not objective and cannot truly comprhend the issues at stake. His faith clouds his reason and if he really was objective and rational he would see my side of things." My bad luck the three judges happened to be the three most avid atheists (one a former Mormon) on the faculty. (end personal gripe, begin literary discussion) In Mormon literature why would a Virginia Sorenson or a Levi Peterson be considered to be more objective than a Scott Card or a Dave Wolverton/Farland? Both Card and Wolverton are fairly mainstream (if a bit on the edges of such), have a great love for the church and its people, actually believe in the doctrines, yet can precieve our foibles fairly well. Why are "backslider" and "A Little Lower than the Angels" greater than "Saints" or "The Runelords." I think we have our Mormon Amy Tan/Mark Twain. The names are Orson Scott Card and Dave Wolverton/Farland. But they are faithful members. So does that automatically cast them out of the running? I tend to think it shouldn't. Perhaps it's the fields of Sci-Fi and Fantasy that rule them out. I don't know. But I tend to agree with Eugene England in his "Pastwatch" essay where he said that Orson Scott Card is the closest person we have so far to a Shakespeare of our own. - --Ivan Wolfe - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:21:24 From: Marilyn Brown Subject: Re: [AML] Sexuality in LDS Lit How does the other .01 percent arrive? Marilyn Brown At 04:34 PM 5/23/00 -0600, you wrote: >There are over 5 billion of us on this planet, and I dare say that 99.99 percent of us arrived here by sexual means. >[Dave Wilkinson] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #55 *****************************