From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #61 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, June 7 2000 Volume 01 : Number 061 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:23:22 -0600 From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Multiple Points of View D. Michael Martindale wrote: >Valerie Holladay wrote: > > > I know there's a school of thought that says a book or > > story can only have one POV, and while I agree that > > too many POVs can clutter a scene and dilute the > > emotion and reader-character connection, if done well, > > the characters can reveal themselves through what they > > say (and don't say) and how they say it. > >What school is that? The vast majority of novels I read have multiple >points of view. A number of "How to Write a Bestseller"-type books suggest that one of the hallmarks of successful (read "sells a lot of copies") novels is a fairly rapid rotation among three to five POVs. I know it's fairly common in some genres, including thrillers and epic fantasy. I think the rule most of us were pounded with was that switching POV within the same scene was bad form. Some even suggest staying with a single POV throughout a single chapter. This seems general wisdom in the modern writing establishment. Which can make reading some older fiction (as recent as the early-to-mid 1900s) an odd experience. This one-POV-per-logical-scene concept is relatively new, but it's informed at least one full generation. I was reading Maureen Whipple's "The Giant Joshua" and was often distracted by POV changes not only with the same scene, but within the same paragraph--and several times within the same sentence. It was wonderful for getting many different thoughts into the same scene, but it was definitely confusing at times for my weakened, modern sensibility. I like the idea of one POV per scene. Sure, use dialog and observation to show us how all the characters feel, but only give us the direct perspective of one character at a time. FWIW. Scott Parkin - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:29:52 -0700 From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] FOWLER, Stages of Faith Skip Hamilton wrote: > > The paradox and miracle of > truely good "faith" literature is that without being able to fully see, > some come close to offering a "shared" literary perspective of which other > thoughtful individuals may catch a glimpse. A literature which only > claims to speak of "my god" falls into Fowler's trap. A literature > which struggles to show "our God", through the efforts of its characters > and writer to portray that veiled reality, offers itself as more > successful literature to me. I must say that despite the fact that I find Fowler's framework useful, I have some sympathy for this view (if I understand what you are trying to convey). I think that Fowler's framework is perhaps too individual-centric--too quick to discount the value of spiritual community and shared belief. Even those who reach stage 6, the pinnacle of the hierarchy, are often part of communities, although typically they build their own. Balancing the needs of the community with the individual progress of its members is one of the great dilemmas of religious life. - -- Rob Pannoni Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:34:08 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. Jacob Proffit: <<>> One thing I'd like to see literature explore is whether God ever sets = people up in marriages that he knows will--and should--end in divorce. I = believe he does, just in the same way he may allow someone to contract a = disease that requires a traumatic cure. To say that any man who marries = the "wrong" woman has made an error in judgment denies the possibility = that the Spirit led him into that decision--but as a trial, not a = blessing. That is what happened in my case; I believe I earned the trial = in consequence of some unchaste behavior earlier in life. By submitting to = a difficult spouse and making the best of the marriage covenant, I believe = I had the opportunity to demonstrate repentance for earlier misuse of = marital relations--and the divorce, instigated by the other party, came as = a sweet relief to me. That's another great theme for Mormon literature: in = what way are our trials customized by God to help us in our personal = pathways of repentance and perfection--or to what degree do they come from = our own errors or from chance? I guess my point is that a bad marriage = can be orchestrated by God and is not necessarily always the result of our = own bad judgment. Divorce is very often misused, but sometimes it is a necessary cure. Is it = necessarily a failure if you have to take chemotherapy to eradicate a = malignant tumor? Of course, your earlier lifestyle choices may have = contributed to the formation of the tumor. The trick is to make sure = YOU'RE not the malignancy in the marriage (and although both partners make = mistakes, in cases of divorce one person is usually quite flawed in some = way, morally or emotionally or mentally or spiritually). In any event, = divorce as an element of contemporary literature has all kinds of = interesting potential for exploring the mortal condition. Speaking from experience, Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Interested in novels, stories, poems, plays, and films by, for, or about = Mormons? Check out IRREANTUM magazine at www.xmission.com/~aml/irreantum.ht= m. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:34:37 -0600 From: Steve Perry Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. > From: "Tracie Laulusa" > > I think, because it seems the majority of marriages break up because the man > is unfaithful or decides he want to marry his careers or what have you, > women have a very hard time sympathizing with, or believing a story that > puts the guy in a "no fault" position. Hmmm, wouldn't the story be more interesting if he _doesn't_ start from the "no fault" position. He's got somewhere to go--several different directions in fact--and she's got more to wonder about, misunderstand, etc. :-) Steve P. S. In _any_ real human relationship, is there really such thing as a "no fault" position for either person? That's something worth exploring in a book. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:34:06 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. ___ Jacob ___ | A man who has been single all his life is problematic. In my | experience with singles wards (as an outside observer watching | friends), it has become clear that any strong, faithful man | will not have trouble finding a strong faithful woman willing | to be his companion. ___ I'll try to keep this on literature... I promise. But... If all is wanted is finding a strong faithful woman who wants to get married, then of course you are right. But then that's probably why the divorce rate has been getting so high. All that people feel is needed is a strong faithful companion. The importance of a RELATIONSHIP is somehow devalued. Where does this devaluation come from? Presumably our literature. At least I can't see where else people would learn this pernicious idea. ___ Jacob ___ | Any story that deals with a man who has been single all his life | and wants to treat him as a romantic subject needs to account for | how he has managed to remain single and doesn't want to be any | more. ___ Basically what I think Jacob and others on that side of the discussion are saying is that anyone who doesn't fit into the ideal LDS archetype will not be believable to an LDS audience. I'd say that probably these non-ideal folks are coming to make up the majority of the church, of course. As someone said last week, a divorce with no real blame isn't believable to this 'ideal' Mormon community. I agree. However perhaps what literature ought to be doing is showing that these 'ideal' situations aren't that realistic. There are a lot of people in the church divorced through no real fault of their own. Who are single and don't have these weird emotional issues Jacob alludes to. And so forth... (For the record I'm 30 and single, so I may be a bit touchy on the issue) - -- Clark Goble --- d.c.g@att.net ----------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:37:19 -0600 From: Steve Perry Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. > From: Jacob Proffitt > Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. > > Frankly, Eric Samuelsen's "the Way We're Wired" was an > excellent example of the post thirty romance. The main heroine was a > divorcee and you could see her overcoming the effects of that divorce even > though she was in no way personally responsible for it. I agree that the heroine and her daughter see it this way. The book doesn't really tell us, but lets us either believe her or not. Steve - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:06:30 -0600 From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. Tracie writes: Now, don't jump all over me. I'm > not saying there aren't cases that the woman is not the instigator but that > it seems that in the majority of cases it is the guy I think this is a matter of who you run into. Many of the women I know (me, too) have experience with men that were impossible--abusive, unresponsive, weird in a variety of ways. On the other hand, my husband Russell has many friends whose first wives were impossible--irresponsible, unresponsive, just plain mean. I have almost never met any women like that, but there you are. The bottom line is that divorce, like marriage, is so individual. I think that you cannot categorize divorcees, men or women. That is what would make a story about such individuals fascinating. The important stuff is how a remarriage works--how the spouses deal with the old stuff from the other relationships, how the kids and parents interact, how the new partners create a better relationship. I know from my present experience--and my observation of a number of second marriages--that you can have the fairy tale late in life. "Who could have known?" Russell and I chuckle (in a Slavic accent) as we ponder the joy in this second marriage. To be absolutely realistic, though, you'd need to write about the single years too. Tell you what: someone describing the LDS Singles Dances could have a heyday :). Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 435-637-8744 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:30:15 -1000 From: "Randall Larsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Peter SAMUELSON, Joseph & Emma Movie Harlow Clark and Listmembers, Orson probably wouldn't have settled for the part of Joseph. He would have played God or Satan. On the carthage jail scene: The roseblood works here.. I was reading an anti-mormon book whose title escapes me the book says that Joseph said O lord my God, if there is a God, as he fell. Of course everyone since Reed Durham knows that Joseph was trying to give the masonic distress call O Lord My God is there no help for the window's son. Roseblood and window are related in ways I can't explain here. > > At the time I was working with Orson Welles. I asked Orson if he was > > interested in the project. Too religious he mumbled. > > He passed up the chance to play up the Nauvoo Expositor angle, "It might > be kind of fun to start a newspaper." He could have had Joseph Smith call > out "Rose Blood" as he leaps from the window. > > > I sent a letter to Redford's Warner Bros. office asking Redford > > if he was interested in playing Joseph. I got a polite letter back > > wishing me luck. It seems Redford always plays winners. > > The martydom scene would have been out of character. > > We know Joseph had a gun in Carthage Jail, Redford could simply have > reshaped history a bit, given Hyrum (played by that guy that makes salad > dressing) a gun and had them rush out of the jail at the mob, then freeze > the frame while we hear volley after volley of shots. For dramatic effect > he could have had a voice-over say, "Hand me that bowie knife," You see it doesn't work because Joseph's not an outlaw at least he does not think of himself as one. > > How much do you tell however, the Plural marriage and Polyandry is > > difficult for lifetime members of the church to understand. We have > > not experienced living the principle. How much can you tell to a > > non-member audience? > > (Shifting tone.) There's an enthymeme, here, an unstated premise. People > usually don't state premises that seem obvious, but I'm not sure it's at > all obvious that if lifetime members have a hard time understanding > polygamy and polyandry non-members will have an even more difficult time. > One reason lifetime members have such difficulty is that our culture is > hesitant to talk openly about them, and for good reason. Many of us > descend from people who might end up in prison if they talked about > polygamy. > I acknowledge the unstated premise. My dad still can't acknowledge that some of his ancestors were involved in authorized post manifesto polygyny. > > Non-Mormons don't have that psychic wound to contend with about polygamy > and might be able to accept the practice as part of the story's moral > universe if it were presented from the right pov, which might be the > magical realism Jerry Johnston was talking about in his "Waiting for the > Great Mormon Novel." Agreed. When I was at Berkeley Nightfall at Nauvoo was required reading in Religion Class. So the gentiles got better history than those who took the course from Hyrum Andrus. > > > Hopefully I will have a shot at doing Joseph's story someday. > > > I will ask my agent to pitch my treatment one more time. > > Tell him to pitch it as God's Army, the Prequel, or maybe God's General: > Prophet Joseph Smith. > Those are reasonable suggestions. Joseph was sort of a Patton type. > (No, it'll never fly, people don't like to laugh an be serious in the > same post, doofus.) > > Harlow Soderborg (also a Lloyd, a Boyce and a Waldron) Clark > _______________ Thanks. Randall Larsen _________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:42:13 -0600 From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Jobs for writers > > < writing or editing project for hours on end without taking those breaks. > >From my experience, if you simply write straight through, the well runs > dry, the brain loses its springiness, and a whole host of other > unappetizing metaphors. That is why I complain so much about being a ghostwriter. I use up all the juice on other people's stuff. When people ask me what kind of writing I do for a living, I have replied "Prostitutional." Russell has asked me not to say that, though. He says it denigrates the very good work that I do and that it just makes him feel bad for me :). If I could just put together a couple of months doing the creative work I have blossoming inside, with the time and focus I use on others' projects, I imagine I could do some miraculous creating. :) Cathy - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:46:30 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Sexuality in LDS literature On Sat, 20 May 2000 14:07:42 Melissa Proffitt writes: > the fact that sex is *private* has become > transmuted to mean that it's *dirty*. Remember that _obscene_ doesn't mean _dirty_, it means _off-stage_, the skene being the performing space in a Greek theater. Sex is obscene not because it's dirty but because it's not to be shared with an audience. But words pick up connotations, and it's difficult to keep something that is secret (and privacy is a form of secrecy) from being shameful, especially if the secrecy involves the vulnerability and intimacy of nakedness. > A good novel is like a window into someone else's life--as though the > characters are real people who just happen to be able to tell you > what they're thinking. To some degree, reading a description of > sex between such characters is like peeking through their > bedroom window. I wrote a short novel several years ago about a philosophy student at BYU whose marriage is in deep trouble but he doesn't know it except in his dreams. I thought I was writing about exhaustion, about the physical toll having a new baby in the house takes on parents, about the physical toll of getting up at three a.m. to work and trying to go to school full time and have some kind of night life, that is about the lives of people I saw around me. I found as I reworked the story, and after, that I was writing about not only the exhaustion of a marriage, but the exhaustion of the wife's sexual resources and desires. I found I had created a character with a deep ambivalence towards sex. Interesting how characters develop themselves, and how you don't always know when you're exploring something where you'll end up. (I love that line in Roethke's "The Waking," "I learn by going where I have to go.") It can be disquieting to find yourself in an unfamiliar sexual world, as either a reader or writer. >While I can understand readers not wanting to read graphic > descriptions of sex, it's their objecting to even the mention of beds > or nakedness or kissing that scares me. It suggests a fearfulness that > cannot possibly be healthy for a married couple--particularly one that > has children and has therefore presumably had sex at least *once.* I'm not sure reticence is the same as fearfulness. I have occasionally edited personal materials out of my posts, not out of fear particularly, but a certain shyness (no, I haven't tried powder milk biscuits--don't know any Norwegian bachelor farmers), a privacy. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:32:18 -0700 (MST) From: dlaulusa@copper.net Subject: [AML] Cover Letters for Picture Books I have a question mainly for picture book writers. What are the main differences between a cover letter and a query? I have read _Children's Writer's and Illustrator's Market_ and numerous articles on the web with out finding any answer. The consensus seems to be the author sends the entire picture book manuscript and, instead of a query, a cover letter. But I can't figure out what exactly should be in the cover letter-except somewhere the statement that you are making simultaneous submissions if you are. Anyone have any knowledge? Tracie - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:28:47 PDT From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] _The Testament of One Fold and One Shepherd_ My sister and her kids were in town this week from Phoenix, so one of the things we did was go see "The Testament of One Fold and One Shepherd" at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building in Salt Lake (I have been too intimidated to get tickets before this because of stories about large crowds.) It seems almost irreverent to comment on this film as if it were just another movie, because it isn't. There's the old saying, "Thou shalt not read the Bible for its prose." Keeping this in mind, here are a few observations. This film is fully the equal of the most expensive, elaborate Hollywood-produced effort. The sound, special effects, costumes, sets, photography and acting are on the same level as anything made for a paying American audience. This is the first church film this can be said about; its a quantum leap over even "Legacy." The decision was obviously made to make this film as entertaining as possible, given the restraints imposed by respect for scripture. Thus, the climax somewhat resembles a Spielberg-Lucas movie set in ancient America. I did not feel, however, the annoyance I frequently feel at the manipulations of a big-budget flick. Here the technique was in a good cause. It is impossible to tell one ethnic group from another in this film. Everyone has the same light brown skin. The words "Nephite" and "Lamanite" are never uttered. At one point the father, Helam, has to literally save the life of his grown son, Jacob, who has fallen in with a secret combination. I thought how rare it is you see a depiction of a strong competent male parent these days. Because our culture worships youth, most parents, and especially most fathers, are depicted as boobs. Whereas in real life it is very common for young people (myself included) to make stupid mistakes out of sheer inexperience, and then your parents have to bail you out. The link between generations is a strong theme is this film. The villain, Kohor (the leader of the secret combination), has a pseudo-British accent--he sounds like Olivier in "Richard III." I half-facetiously wonder how well this will go over with English tourists. Lastly, the finale of this film is really something to see. I feel awkward describing it in words because of the events involved. Suffice it to say it has been shot and edited with the utmost forcefulness and will rock you back in your seat. Hours later, after the spiritual impact had faded somewhat, I thought to myself "Now, *that's* how you end a movie!" The most important thing you will take away from "Testaments", of course, are your feelings. My own were humbled and grateful. It has been designed as a missionary tool, but this film is a must-see for LDS audiences, if only to find out what the church and its artists can accomplish when they really set their minds to it. R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:58:39 PDT From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. >A man who has been single all his life is problematic. In my experience >with singles wards (as an outside observer watching friends), it has become >clear that any strong, faithful man will not have trouble finding a strong >faithful woman willing to be his companion. Even if he's ugly, fat, bald >AND disabled. He can even insist that his wife-to-be is cute. A single, >faithful brother past his thirties has something weird going on--he's being >too picky or he has some other hang-up that is preventing him from >marrying. >The hang-up can be external (like with Steve Young having complicating >factors of fame and riches) or internal (like he's gay or wants something >unrealistic or harmful in his wife). Either way, something is wrong and >needs to be taken care of before marriage is advisable. Any story that >deals with a man who has been single all his life and wants to treat him as >a romantic subject needs to account for how he has managed to remain single >and doesn't want to be any more. As a single man in his 30's I am greatly troubled by some of the generalizations I have been reading in this discussion. If some of us seem "weird", maybe its partly because of anxiety produced by having to face attitudes like these on a regular basis from other members. I half-humorously thought that Steve Young made it a little more acceptable for the rest of us--obviously I was mistaken. R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #61 *****************************