From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #63 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Thursday, June 8 2000 Volume 01 : Number 063 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:54:23 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] PARKINSON, _Into the Field_ (review) Neal Kramer wrote: > At this point in the story--about 100 pages in--I wondered whether I was reading a novel or a memoir. I had to shake myself a little to remember I was reading LDS fiction. Mormon fiction has not shown us many missions in this much turmoil. Missionary stories have tended to focus on the teaching and the baptizing--or the sexual misadventures of individual > elders and sisters. Mormon folklore, on the other hand, is replete with whispered rumors of missions or zones gone bad, with elders being rebuked, sent home, and generally chastised. Through this missionary underground we even hear of mission presidents suddenly released or church troubleshooters coming to clean up the mess. So I was beginning to wonder > whether I was feeling honest suspense (How and when will this change!?) or I was reading the overwhelmingly bitter experience of an elder beaten down by his mission. (Not unusual for European missionaries at all.) > I also think that is a fairly accurate view of the the feelings of many young missionaries, though the laziness of some elders seems slightly exaggerated to me. I haven't read the book, but from yoru descriptions of it - I don't think the laziness can be exaggerated - I had two (in a row even and they were my first two) companions who would sleep in till noon, go out on pretense of tracking, but really to work on their latest bike tricks like mastering bunnyhops or wheelies, and then flirt with some of the local Lao girls (Lao speaking mission stateside), come back to the apartment about 6 pm and play cards with the other missionaries until midnight. Parkinsosn's novel sounds somewhat softer than what I experienced. Luckily, my next three companions (one I spent 10 months with) were amazing and I finsished my mission on a great note with honest, sincere and earnest missionaries. > Ultimately, however, this is a book about surviving adversity by receiving small gifts of grace. Each missionary who honestly seeks to serve finally finds a blessing. > I especially enjoyed how Parkinson allowed these little revelations to sneak up on you. AMEN to that. Sounds like Parkinson has finally written a book that is true to the missionary experience. I was on a mission and was discouraged because my work did not seem to fit the mold of stories in the New Era or the church videos I'd seen. A Mission really was drudgery and hard work, waiting for those "small gifts of grace" that kept you going until the next one came along. Of course, I also feel that the church films and New Era stories have a purpose and should continue. But there needs to be more of what it seems Parkinson has written (and Dutcher has filmed - though Parkinson's seems to go deeper from the review). - --Ivan Wolfe - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:21:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Edgar Snow Subject: [AML] Re: Sexuality in LDS Literature As I've followed this thread off and on I've been reminded of an important work of Mormon literature that contains significant amounts of frank sexuality: The Song of Solomon. Sure, it's not considered scripture (see the JST footnoted statement from Joseph Smith), but I think we still consider it acceptable literature. Why even the LDS institute manual covers it, as I recall. And, even though Joseph thought it uninspired, a direct quotation from The Song of Solomon is used 3 times in the D&C: "As fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and as terrible as an army with banners" (see SoS 6:10 and compare to D&C 5:14; 105:31; and 109:73). I find this all very curious (for me, of course, that's the way I like things). If you believe the D&C language comes directly from God, how do you account for the quotes from SoS? If you believe Joseph had a lot of input in dictating the D&C revelations (which I believe must have been the case--another topic for another day), that means he likely read the entire SoS (there are only 8 chapters in the book) and liked this passage enough to quote it 3 times in revelatory contexts. Ed Snow ===== My collection of humorous essays entitled _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ has just been released and can be ordered from Signature Books at 1-800-356-5687, or from their website at http://www.signaturebooksinc.com/curious.htm or from Barnes & Noble at http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD&mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:29:01 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. ___ Tracie ___ | I'm not saying there aren't cases that the woman is not the | instigator but that > it seems that in the majority of cases | it is the guy | ___ Cathy ___ | I think this is a matter of who you run into. ___ I have to agree with Cathy. I personally have known more guys treated poorly by wives than vice versa. However Tracie brings up a good point. If you are writing about this, how believable your basic story is well be in large part determined by your audience. Rather than deal with divorce, let me use a different example with perhaps stronger emotion. Consider stories about abusive Bishops, such as Evenson's last novel. Many of us who've never had such encounters tend to be repulsed by the basic premise. That keeps us from getting into the book. Those who sympathize with the premise, because of their own past experiences, will buy into the book more. Now how this fact is dealt with depends upon the goals of the author. Are you trying to show to this ignorant audience the experiences of this other group? (I don't think Evenson was doing this - I think he was preaching to the choir) Likewise I think with divorce or even the issue of older singles, you have to deal with your audience. The average content "all is well in Zion" Mormon probably won't understand any of these situations unless put into a negative context. (i.e. anyone divorced is bad, anyone single is of their own doing, etc.) So if you are writing to this large body, you have to really show and explain how this could happen. It takes a lot of persuasive skills I think. - -- Clark Goble --- d.c.g@att.net ----------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 00 15:42:00 MDT From: cratkinson Subject: RE: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. Richard Hopkins wrote: >The problem is this: If you have a story about someone in their late >thirties or early forties, and you want a romance, how can you do it if = >the hero is not divorced? Do you have to write about a guy who's never >been married? Hello. My name is Christine Atkinson. I've been lurking here for a few fascinating weeks but felt the need to squawk a little on this topic. While I believe it's true that making the man a widower is the easiest an= d nicest way to get around the Why Is He Single? dilemma, it is not the mos= t interesting and is certainly not the most realistic. As a 30-year-old si= ngle woman (Yikes! Unlettered and unmarried. Can I possibly fit in here?), I= can tell you that there are very few widowers my age out there. In fact, I d= on't think I know even one. There are a few more never-been-marrieds than wido= wers, but the truth is, most unmarried men around my age are divorced. = Listening to his divorce horror story and looking at pictures of his kids= are things I've come to expect on a date. I've met my share of jerks and los= ers but I've also met nice guys whose marriages simply didn't work out. If I refused to date divorced men for the reasons people have cited here for n= ot having the main character be a divorcee, I'd not only miss meeting the ni= ce guys, I'd probably never leave my house! I suppose my point is that I'd certainly prefer reading about characters who've learned a few things and made better decisions the second time aro= und to reading about a perfect man whose perfect wife died and he was perfect= ly sad until he met a perfectly lovely woman and remarried to perfect wedded= bliss. An exaggeration, I know, but real people are more interesting to = read and to write than are characters who've never made mistakes, never had regrets, never wished for a cosmic undo in their lives. = I'm a sucker for a good romance, but - maybe because this is the reality = I live with - I'd much rather read about flawed people making it work than perfect people finding instant joy. I don't really want to read the Morm= on version of a Harlequin Romance. I've been fascinated by the posts on this topic so far. Especially by th= e fact that there have been indirect comments about single men in their thi= rties and forties being problematic or weird, but there have not been any simil= ar comments about women. Why? Is it just that we are unwilling to say thes= e same things about women or is there a different perception of unmarried women? Christine Atkinson ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:59:33 -0600 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:17:32 -0700, Rob Pannoni wrote: >People change and grow. Sometimes their growth takes them down separate >paths. Why not a novel about a marriage between two good, faithful >people who simply find that after many years together their paths have >diverged? Perhaps they have simply exausted all of the possibilites of >the relationship. Personal growth has turned to stagnation. There is no >animosity, just a shared sense that they have come to the end of the >road. Perhaps the same spiritual witness that bound them together is >now saying it's time to move on, even though there is no reason they can >point to that anyone else would understand. The lack of a logical >reason for the breakup might make this the most heartbreaking tragedy of >all. Your scenario assumes that people grow independently. I don't think that people do. We are influenced by those around us. If a couple is growing independent of each other then something is seriously wrong. When you = get married, you're supposed to pay attention to one another. Couples who = grow apart do so because they are neglecting something important--whether intentional or not. I have a hard time imagining such a thing happening = in a home where the Spirit is a welcome guest. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:12:47 -0700 From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. You're a single man in his 30s? Hey, I have a single daughter in her 30s! Don't worry, she's not at all like me! barbara hume >As a single man in his 30's I am greatly troubled by some of the >generalizations I have been reading in this discussion. If some of us seem >"weird", maybe its partly because of anxiety produced by having to face >attitudes like these on a regular basis from other members. I >half-humorously thought that Steve Young made it a little more acceptable >for the rest of us--obviously I was mistaken. > >R.W. Rasband - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:07:03 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. ___ Richard ____ | Actually, I've seen the most recent statistics. The divorce rate | in Utah is notably below the national average, which itself has | dropped to about 25%, surprisingly low in my mind. ___ After constantly castigating people for quoting hearsay as facts, I went and did it myself. I've heard about the high divorce rate so much of late that I was starting to believe the rhetoric around here. Thanks for the stats. Where did you find them? Are they available online? So get rid of everything I said about high divorce. I still think it is pretty high here in Provo. But that's just anecdotal evidence. (I'm amazed at how many people seem to get divorced around here - usually because they were idiots while dating because of the pressure to marry here) ___ Richard ___ | ...but imagine a hero in his early forties and still unmarried. ___ I guess that would depend upon the story. I mean in Hollywood films and most novels the hero is single. Often the hero is also in his late 30's or early 40's. i.e. Tom Hanks, Arnold Swartzenegger, Mel Gibson, etc. For a Mormon, it certainly would be unusual, however. But then whether that is a good or bad thing really depends upon the goal of your story and the audience you are writing for. If you want a character the audience will empathize with more, then you want to character to resemble them. If you want to show the audience something they tend to repress, then perhaps a different character would be best. And of course if you are writing a archetypal romance, then having a single or divorced character is a must. For such a book I'm not sure a single character is worse than a divorced one though. In some ways a single person might be better because a lot of the baggage Mormons associate with divorce wouldn't be present. But of course there is the additional baggage that people tend to think single males over 25 to be at best odd and at worse a threat. ___ | If a hero is, say, a bishop, and his wife "goes off the deep end" and | divorces him. What issues do you see arising? ___ Well at a minimum there is the issue of the church wanting all leadership positions held by non-divorced men. I know they strongly discourage calling divorced men. (Purportedly because they will be biased in dealing with divorce, or so I'm told) The man wouldn't be able to work in the temple either. (The over 31, male and single rule) I'm rather sure that whether guilty or not many in the congregation would blame the Bishop for sinning in some way as well. Heaven knows there will be lots of pressures on the poor fellow. However that might make an interesting story. Of course I'm not sure the average member would appreciate it. - -- Clark Goble --- d.c.g@att.net ----------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:53:52 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. ___ Christine ___ | I've been fascinated by the posts on this topic so far. | Especially by the fact that there have been indirect comments | about single men in their thirties and forties being | problematic or weird, but there have not been any similar | comments about women. Why? ____ It has a long tradition in Mormon literature and speaking, unfortunately. It goes back at least to Brigham Young who said any man over 25 who was single was a threat. Unless they've changed the rhetoric of late in the single-adult firesides, there was always an undertone that it was the man's responsibility to take care of the over 25 women. If they weren't then they weren't magnifying their priesthood. Go back through talks in the 70's and early 80's and the rhetoric was a lot harsher. They've toned it down of late, probably due to the changing demographics (which follow national trends). However it is still strong, especially in Utah. I'm sure that with little effort I could collect a series of quotes, but it really is a bit afield for this list. Having said that though there are plenty of comments about weird single women as well. It's just that most guys know better than to bring them up. It's especially difficult for a single guy who never has been married to date a divorced woman with kids. I rarely even do it anymore just because the whole thing is so difficult to deal with in my ignorance. ___ Christine ___ | If I refused to date divorced men for the reasons people have cited | here for not having the main character be a divorcee, I'd not only | miss meeting the nice guys, I'd probably never leave my house! ___ It is difficult to write or speak about what you haven't experienced. Isn't that one of the first things they teach you in creative writing? Write what you know about. That's not to say you can't push the boundaries. However the further you get away from your own experience the less authentic it sounds. It is a very good author indeed who can write about backgrounds other than their own and do it well. Consider a suburban Mormon trying to write _Boyz in the Hood_. Probably wouldn't come off terribly well. In the same way I suspect the average American Mormon, especially in the west, married fairly young and really doesn't know what it is like to be single in ones thirties. They judge it by their experiences when they were 18-22. If they went to BYU it is even more distorted. They wonder, "why can't they just do what I did," not realizing that the entire environment and options are different. (i.e. where exactly do you go to meet someone over 25, other than bars and clubs?) The same is true of people trying to deal with divorcees and so forth. Outside of the main areas of Mormonism, where there are probably a greater number of people who've joined the church as singles or divorced, things are probably different though. I know they were back home where 'nuclear families' are the minority. - -- Clark Goble --- d.c.g@att.net ----------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:06:34 -0700 From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: RE: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. >I'm a sucker for a good romance, but - maybe because this is the reality I >live with - I'd much rather read about flawed people making it work than >perfect people finding instant joy. I don't really want to read the Mormon >version of a Harlequin Romance. Perfect people finding instant joy is certainly not what romance novels are about. > >I've been fascinated by the posts on this topic so far. Especially by the >fact that there have been indirect comments about single men in their thirties >and forties being problematic or weird, but there have not been any similar >comments about women. Why? Is it just that we are unwilling to say these >same things about women or is there a different perception of unmarried >women? Women are perceived as being desperate to marry, and men as desperate to avoid it. I don't know where these stereotypes came from--probably from the time when women had to marry or starve, and men had to watch out for being targeted as meal tickets. Besides, there seem to be many more women out there, and the ratio gets worse and worse as people get older. We've all seen the rows and rows of blue-haired widows in church, but never rows and rows of bald-headed old coots. I read someplace that if all the marriagable men in America actually got married, there would still be 3 1/2 million women left over. So the single guy in the novel Richard is talking about will probably know at least one woman whose theory is that with the odds so bad, she might as well concentrate on fame and fortune and forget about men. barbara hume - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:56:53 -0600 From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. Another interesting topic for some LDS novelist would be to depict how a ward treats a divorced person. I know I was treated with infinite kindness but incredible distance. Russell was treated like an invisible man. Some divorced men are not even home taught till they are remarried--validated, made into a person again. The reality we have to examine is--many many latter-day saints get divorced. Half, I hear. I never thought I'd get divorced, but, well, I did. For about four years I was a divorced woman, and treated VERY differently than I was/am as a married woman. As I follow the discussion here, I can't help but notice the stereotypes--if a person is divorced, there has to be something WRONG with him or her. Maybe. (YOu can certainly get that impression at the singles dances. . .oy!) But then again, maybe not. Someday I will find the courage to write about how I experienced choosing marriage both times; the first time, I felt I should marry even though I didn't know the person well. The second time, ah well, with apologies, it's Saturday's Warrior again :). Marriage made in heaven. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 435-637-8744 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 11:27:20 -0600 From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Cover Letters for Picture Books In a *query* letter you explain your project simply, outline the competition, specify your expertise or familiarity with the material and demonstrate that there is something additional "out there" for the editor to read. An editor will not want to take on a project too similar to one already published or in the works. You state that if they are interested you will send them a full outline or first chapter of your proposed book. A *cover letter* is usually not necessary, but if you do send one remember that less is more. Just give information that is important to the understanding of the manuscript or tell why you are the perfect person to write it. (I paraphrased this info from Jane Yolen's _Writing Books for Children._) Nan McCulloch - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:00:26 EDT From: CDoug91957@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Sexuality in LDS Literature In a message dated 00-06-07 19:26:22 EDT, Ed Snow writes: << As I've followed this thread off and on I've been reminded of an important work of Mormon literature that contains significant amounts of frank sexuality: The Song of Solomon.... And, even though Joseph thought it uninspired, a direct quotation from The Song of Solomon is used 3 times in the D&C: "As fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and as terrible as an army with banners" (see SoS 6:10 and compare to D&C 5:14; 105:31; and 109:73).>> I'm glad someone besides me has noticed this! But not everyone appreciates having this pointed out. About 25 years ago, my Gospel Doctrine teacher in a Provo ward was the son of a very well known and popular LDS writer on scriptural and political topics. He warned us against reading the Song of Solomon because it was "sheer pornography." I pointed out the D&C uses of the S of S, and he said, in some consternation, "Well, you have to be very careful with it." The same teacher refused to discuss in class the story of Judah's encounter with Tamar (Gen. 38) because it was such a "tawdry tale." (If he had learned to read the scriptures in a so-called "literary" way--the subject of a recent thread--he might have been able to see how that story stands in counterpoint to Joseph's encounter with Potiphar's wife.) << If you believe Joseph had a lot of input in dictating the D&C revelations (which I believe must have been the case--another topic for another day),>> This touches on another recent thread (Reading the Scriptures), on the problem of the authorship of the scriptures, whether they are to be read as human artifacts with special divine approval or as dictated directly by God. <> Or, if the scriptures are dictated by God (the position I think my old Gospel Doctrine teacher would take), He must have read the S of S and liked this passage enough to quote it. I think the point I'm really trying to make here is that these two polar opposite reactions--Ed's and my GD teacher's--to the Song of Solomon and the Prophet's use of it (I agree with Ed's view on that) are indicative of the width of the chasm between literary and nonliterary LDS and between LDS views of sexuality. Literary treatment of sexuality involves not only a problem of decorum, as measured against some absolute standard, but also a serious problem of audience. Colin Douglas - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:40:40 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. I'm glad Richard has decided to make his protagonist a divorced man. >From what has been said here, it sounds like such a protagonist is desperately needed. I'm appalled at the statements made about divorced men. Words like "bigoted" and "ignorant" come to mind, but I'm afraid if I use them, Jonathan will bump my message, so I won't. Are there those of you who really believe that men are substantially more defective than women, more at fault in relationships, more screwed up if things don't work? If so, why are these attitudes considered acceptable, when comparable ones about race would be mercilessly condemned? Or comparable ones about women, for that matter? Write about that divorced protagonist, Richard. Show a normal example of such a person as an antidote to the two-dimensional villainous image that is apparently so rampant. Showing people of non-white race as normal in films and television shows helped to combat the utterly unrealistic image many whites had of them. Some of that medicine ought to help in this case too. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 23:21:17 JST From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] FILLERUP, _Beyond the River_ Several people have mentioned that they are impressed by Levi Peterson's _The Backslider_, but aren't ultimately satisfied by it because the characters are too bizarre to relate to, or because of what they see as a too negative view of the Church. For those people (in fact for all of you) I strongly recommend Michael Fillerup's 1996 novel _Beyond the River_, (Signature). I just finished reading it a few weeks ago, and although I don't feel up to writing a full review (besides, there is a better one than I could write already in the archives), I must say that we are blessed to have such an excellent LDS artist in Fillerup. He is as good a "literary" writer as Peterson, although he does lack Peterson's flair for humor. Like Peterson he depicts struggles with faith in deep, intriguing ways, which certainly forced me to stop and reexamine my own ideas and actions. His characters tend to be much more "regular Mormon guy" types, however, with the kind of family and Church pressures that are more familiar to the average reader than the situations Peterson depicts. I don't think that is what makes him so good, I don't mind Peterson's weirdness, after all. But I would think it would make his work more accessible. Instead, however, we haven't talked about him hardly at all here on the list. The list members were supposed to read the book once in 1996 for our short lived monthly book club, but only a couple of people wrote in to say anything. I find his low profile very surprising, since he has written so much great Mormon literature. Since the late 1980s he seems to have had at least two quality short stories published in Dialogue or Sunstone every year, and seems to win a First Prize in the Sunstone fiction contest every year. His 1980s stories were collected in the 1990 book _Visions and Other Stories_ (Signature). Half of the stories are set on Indian reservations in the Southwest. Now there are more than enough stories out there for another collection. For example I loved his story "Pioneers," (Dialogue, 1997), which juxtaposes the challenges faced by the pioneers with the different (but just as tough) problems of a contemporary Mormon father. These are great stories, although I admit they are often quite a downer. Fillerup has now joined Peterson and Margaret Blair Young in my trimvurative of great "literary" contemporary Mormon writers. Oh, speaking of MB Young, that reminds me of another subject. We have also talked about depicting divorce in literature, and in her collection of stories _Love Chains_ (Signature, 1997), Young depicts the impact of broken LDS marriages, remarriage, and blended families in simple but powerful ways. She is really my favorite of the three, somehow her work satisfies something in me more than any other LDS author. Now I'm off to bed, because we need to get up by 3:30 to get into Tokyo in time to catch a plane to Fukuoka, to attend the Temple Dedication there on Sunday. It'll be my first dedication, and President Hinckley will be there. Plus we used to live in Fukuoka, so we're looking forward to seeing our old friends. Andrew Hall Nagareyama, Japan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 14:17:20 -0400 From: Richard Johnson Subject: RE: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. At 03:07 PM 6/7/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Well at a minimum there is the issue of the church wanting all leadership >positions held by non-divorced men. I know they strongly discourage calling >divorced men. (Purportedly because they will be biased in dealing with >divorce, or so I'm told) The man wouldn't be able to work in the temple >either. (The over 31, male and single rule) I'm rather sure that whether >guilty or not many in the congregation would blame the Bishop for sinning in >some way as well. Heaven knows there will be lots of pressures on the poor >fellow. However that might make an interesting story. Of course I'm not >sure the average member would appreciate it. > > >-- Clark Goble --- d.c.g@att.net ----------------------------------- You just live in the wrong part of the country. Around here we have divorced High Counselors, divorced Elders Quorum Presidents, and singles over 30 in all kinds of positions (Execultive Secretaries, EQP's, Young Men's Presidents, Ward Clerks and assistants, as well as the occasional Bishop's Counselor and Branch President. About the only callings from which they are restricted are Bishops and Stake Presidents). I don't know about the temple, we have one of the small temples, and a lot of people are going up for training.. I confess I find myself bridling at some of the cliche characterizations of unmarried (not divorced) men over thirty that have been posted. Somehow I think many of these cliches are products of "Happy Valley" culture. I have three unmarried sons between thirty and forty. One has problems and is effectively out of the church, but I think the other two are pretty cool. (actually, so is the other one--) Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 09:24:24 -0500 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. Clark Goble wrote: > Rather than deal with divorce, let me use a different example with perhaps > stronger emotion. Consider stories about abusive Bishops, such as Evenson's > last novel. Many of us who've never had such encounters tend to be repulsed > by the basic premise. That keeps us from getting into the book. Those who > sympathize with the premise, because of their own past experiences, will buy > into the book more. Evenson took the basic premise of a corrupt bishop from horror stories he had been told by frinds of his in the church. So, in a sense, anyone who is upset by that book, needs to also be upset, to a certain extent, by some coorupt things that unfortunately exist, not only in our church, but in ALL churches. So, the issue is not what we'd like in our literature, but that which reflects what happens in our world. The scriptures tell us that Satan is going to lead many of us to hell by getting us to say "all is well in Zion." (something Clark also alluded to). As writers are we going to join Satan in creating a climate where Satan can clap rings into our noses or are we going to use our talents to point out the lapses in Zion, the potholes and problems? If you think all is well in Zion, talk to the bishops in Provo/Orem. Dean Hughes was a bishop (or in a bishopric) in Provo for a time, and he told me that he saw every crime in his ward short of murder. Why we feel this overwhelming need to write only about active, good-doing people escapes me. For example, I'm in the Elder's Quorum in my ward, and I look at our ward list of 179 and count 45 to 50 active people which is approximately 25%. The literature that we've been talking about directly concerns a small percentage of the experience in my church community. Of course, these numbers are only for the purpose of illustration, but I think they point to something interesting. Great literature is often "tragic" (a term I use loosely). In other words, it covers people who blew it, who messed up their lives, the lives of their families, and the existence of their countries. And in those tragic stories, they usually aren't redeemed (i.e. Macbeth loses his head, Hamlet gets skewered, Oedipus carves out his own eyes and wanders the countryside.) What about LDS tragedy? Certainly church hitsory is rife with it. Emma Smith's story might be considered tragic in some ways. Mountain Meadows. I do not think that there is any danger in kids taking Macbeth as a role model. In fact, that concern is absurd. However, if literature is merely to entertain (Horace would say "delight") then I guess we should want it to simply match our tastes. But the other half of Horace's dictum is that it should also instruct, which is not always pleasurable or what we want. Literature that instructs should show us the results of bad choices, give us some sense that, in some cases, one can act with so much pride and with so little concern for others that there is no turning back, that sometimes we do get on a train with a one-way ticket to Palookaville. Although we can repent, people do not always do it. It seems reasonable to me that our literature should, in some ways, deal with that. Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:52:38 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Movies in 2000 With occasional lapses, I try to note all movies I see in my planner, and for my journal periodically I type them up and either grade them or rank them in order of my preference. Following are my movies noted so far in 2000, ranked in my order of personal liking and also grouped into three broad categories: Thumb clearly up, for me: High Fidelity Wonder Boys Erin Brockovich God's Army U-571 Run Lola Run (did I forget to note "The Insider," or did I see it last year?) Thumb vascillating: Gladiator (too "epic") Being John Malkovich (too silly in parts) Your Friends and Neighbors (not memorable) The Talented Mr. Ripley (airbrushed, remote) Three Kings (jumbled, overdone) The Cider House Rules (too sentimental) The Hurricane (longish) The Sixth Sense (second viewing; not as satisfying as first time) Bowfinger (not to be taken seriously) Galaxy Quest (not to be taken seriously) The Straight Story (slow, simplistic) The Winslow Boy (slow, muted) Boys Dont' Cry (opaque) Hideous Kinky (slow, laborious) Hillary and Jackie (turned into melodrama) My Life So Far (not memorable) My Son the Fanatic (slow, laborious) The Limey (cold) Thumb clearly down: Return to Me (cloying) Twin Falls, Idaho (boring) Anna and the King (conventional) Dinosaur (kiddie) The Story of Us (unconvincing) Dogma (obnoxious) (By the way, for last year I thought "Election" was a lot better than "American Beauty.") In the interest of getting to know each other's tastes more, does anyone else want to give us their recent movie listing in some form or another? And maybe some of these are worth discussing from a Mormon POV. Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Interested in novels, stories, poems, plays, and films by, for, or about Mormons? Check out IRREANTUM magazine at www.xmission.com/~aml/irreantum.htm. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 14:03:31 -0400 From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. At 05:12 PM 6/7/2000 -0700, you wrote: >You're a single man in his 30s? Hey, I have a single daughter in her 30s! >Don't worry, she's not at all like me! > >barbara hume > Me too! Clark, take note ;-> If she saw this post I'd be a dead man. I think she is convinced that if they still had arranged marriages I would ship her off to the first available slot. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #63 *****************************