From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #1017 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, March 26 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1017 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:46:15 -0800 From: "Jongiorgi Enos" Subject: Re: [AML] Physics and AML-List > D. Michael Martindale wrote: And isn't that a fascinating piece of irony, that the restored gospel uses culture [19th Century American Puritanical Conservatism] derived from apostate theology as the basis for its own culture? Yes, and sad, too, but that's not the LDS culture I choose to live in. It intersects and crosses paths with where I want to live, and that's quite frustrating, but I mostly ignore it and go about my own thing. Currently, I've been growing my hair (and actually my beard, too) out long for a series of roles. I'm quite the ragged prophet looking guy. Actually, I'm looking pretty much like I did for John The Baptist (yes, that was all my own hair). I think most of the people in my ward put up with it, because they know about the acting thing, but I also know there are many that are driven batty by my current looks -- especially when I officiate in something. I really do ignore those people (chuckle at them, sometimes). And that's just the stupidest most superficial example of our Puritanical impositions. Anyway.. off-topic. So back to Physics! D.M.M: > Comparing LDS theology to physics is a gold mine of story ideas for a nearly nonexistent subgenre of LDS literature that fascinates me: LDS speculative fiction. I'm looking forward to reading Linda Adams speculative fiction, and I am a fan of speculative fiction myself. One day, reading "New York Review Of Books" I stumbled upon an article (that I will have to dig out again), where this guy describes a theory which would include multiple universes. It was like reading a footnote to the King Follett discourse. Clark Gobel would probably disagree with the guys ontology (and he'd have the right), and I certainly admit it was over my head, but it kind of blew me away. There is absolutely no reason why and LDS sci-fi writer could not delve into that concept of multi-God, multi-universe exploration in a story. It'd be fun; it'd be a blast; it might even be totally mind-blowing and moving. But it would always be fringe. Few scientists (I think) really agree with it; few thealogeans agree with it; many LDS readers might be put off by it. I don't know. When it comes to LDS sci-fi, I've never been particularly intriged. Obviously O.S. Card is disguising a lot of his stuff as allegories, so its fun to pick out (if you're "in the know"), but it's not being crammed down anyone's throat. One of my main problems with projecting LDS culture into say, the far future, exploring space, etc. (like in all those good old sci-fi stories I read so much of and loved so much for so many years), is that I just don't see us going out that far before the Second Comming. Unfortunately, and even though "nobody knows the hour or the day" I think we have this concept in our minds as modern Mormons, that the Second Comming will be within the 21st century, and most believe it will be within three generations. And if that is a pervasive believe in the "culture" (I'm just guessing, but I think it is), then there is a big check in the suspension of disbelief factor to read about Latter-day Saints in say, space. Wouldn't it be cool to do a kind of handcart story where the pioneers are acutally limping along in these old, derelict space ships going from a dead earth to a new planet: Zion?! Yes! But would anyone care, outside of the novelty of it, because we just all KNOW that we'll be in the Millenium before anythign like that would happen. My brother, for one (a Mormon maverik: 36 and never married), is not sure that he wants to be a "God" in the LDS construct. He would much rather be given the right to have a space ship and just travel around, learning, sharing, helping... kind of a space "Kung Fu" if you remember that old show. He wants to rocket ship the melennium, not hang out and do temple work. I don't know. The Terrestial Kindom is a glory, after all, these people are not prisoners or damned souls. They are happy in their sphere. Why couldn't they tool around the stars instead of having billions of kids? Don't know about that one. Jongiorgi - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 00:23:44 -0800 From: "Jongiorgi Enos" Subject: [AML] re: Books on the Bedside Table I'm manic about lists. (I'm manic about a lot of things.) But I love to = read lists and responses about what other people are reading. Being = insane about books, I like to read about books. I keep lists about books = that I will want to read some day, so that I don't forget them. I will = look over these lists before browsing at a bookstore, or before going = online for bargain book hunting. So reading other people's lists of = books helps me make my own lists of what I might want to read in future. = So Richard's reading thread struck a cord with me. (A dangerous one, = probably!) I should also point out that Richard has directly influenced my reading = several times in our long friendship. You know, he got a lot of flack = (or, perhaps just ribbing) from that list of "best books" scene in God's = Army. But he wasn't making that one up, those really, really are on his = list of best books. In fact, Richard is the one that finally got me to = read Grapes Of Wrath. Well, why bother, you know: I'd SEEN the movie! = Anyway, after bugging me for a long time, he finally pulled an old copy = of it off of his shelf and handed it to me and said: Here, READ IT! And, = even though it was about a year later, I did. I couldn't believe what I = had been missing for so many years. I loved it. Anyway, I read a lot. When I'm in a big writing phase, I don't read as = much, but between projects, much more. In 2002, I read about 200 books, = but this year, since I'm writing a lot more, It will probably be down = significantly, to around 50. And when I'm writing, my consumption of = non-fiction goes way up, usually in the form of research, whereas = between writing bouts, I consume a lot of fiction, for pleasure and also = research. Since January, some of my non-fiction reading (ones that I would = recommend, generally) are as follows (in alphabetical order, not order = of preference):=20 The Child That Books Built: A Life In Reading, Francis Spufford. I'm = about halfway through. This is a wonderful, personal study of children's = lit that I am finding fascinating. (And it's filled with lists of his = personal favorites that I've never read that I'm having to add to my = lists!)=20 The Coalwood Way, Homer Hickam. Hickam's the "Rocket Boy" guy who's = first book was made into the film "October Sky." Fun stuff. This is an = amazing example of how he has found structure to autobiography. While = somewhat episodic, this book is nonetheless plotted very much like a = novel, with respect to how symbols and character arcs are introduced and = they pay off by the end. Very interesting. The Demon In The Freezer, Richard Preston. Terrifying small-pox = revelations. Don't read if you're scared about he war, terrorism, etc. = Part of my research for a possible film project, I'm boning up on bad = bugs. Preston's Hot Zone is up the same alley. Empire Express: Building The First Transcontinental Railroad, David = Haward Bain. Read it for a role I was preparing for, but if you live = history, you'll love Bain. There are some very interesting revelations = about Brigham Young and some of the history of the Utah Saints that = overlap this time period. Very interesting stuff. Hagakure: The Book Of the Samurai, Yamamoto Tsunetomo. I am kind of a = Sinophile, actually, and am always reading at least one or two Japanese = books, both non-fiction and fiction. Last year, I discovered Yasunari = Kawabata and I absolutely love him: Sound Of The Mountain, Beauty And = Sadness, Snow Country, A Thousand Cranes. Talk about getting a lesson in = restraint in prose. Subtle, powerful stuff. In The Land Of Pain, Alphonse Daudet, translated and edited by Julian = Barnes. Brilliant, reads in one setting. Mind expanding. An exercise in = writing extremes of human experience by using simplicity and = recognizable images. Lost Lands Of The Book Of Mormon, The: A Geographical And Historical = Study Using The New York Setting, Phyllis Carol Olive. Absolutely = fabulous, if you are into that kind of thing. I've already recommended = it to Richard directly. It's for anyone who has trouble with a = Mesoamerican Book of Mormon setting. The Mother Tongue: English And How It Got That Way, Bill Bryson. Bryson = is hilarious and wonderful. Every writer will delight in this short romp = on the language. Nothing Remains The Same: Rereading And Remembering, Wendy Lesser. = Excellent blending of literary criticism and autobiography, and a study = of how our perceptions change. Chapters on books I had never read where = less interesting to me. The Seven Sins Of Memory: How The Mind Forgets And Remembers Daniel L. = Schacter. Wonderful. I don't always agree with Schacter, but he's the = best writer on the topic of memory today. If you don't like science, = this is still good for writers and actors because it deals so well with = behavior with respect to memory. The Story Of Language, Mario Pei. This is an old text, and I haven't = finished it, but I'm loving it so far. Story: Substance, Structure, Style, And The Principles Of Screenwriting, = Robert McKee. The "uber-book" of screenplay. A lot of McKee is easy to = poke fun at, and some of this feels like going back to school and = picking things apart so much that you loose the point. His dissection of = some of the scenes from "Chinatown" are just moronic. But in between the = eye-rolling, there are gems. And forcing yourself to the discipline he = demands is a great exercise once and a while. I'm in the middle of my = second read. The Tao Of Physics: An Exploration Of The Parallels Between Modern = Physics And Eastern Mysticism, Fritjof Capra. I love it. A bit too New = Age or simplistic for some, but I loved the digest of various religions, = which I like to study, and his is an interesting thesis. Wagons West: The Epic Story Of America's Overland Trails, Frank McLynn. = I've just started it, and it is great so far. The last chapter covers = the Mormon migration. From my scanning ahead, he seems to do a fair = summary. Watershed: The Undamming Of America, Elizabeth Grossman. I got = interested in water issues, especially as they concern California = specifically and the West in general, after reading Marc Reisner's = brilliant Cadillac Desert: The American West And Its Disappearing Water = in 2001. Grossman talks about how some of that is changing. I haven't read a lot of fiction yet this year, mostly children's books = and short stories, and most of my reading has been geared to the kind of = stuff I'm writing at the moment, so there is a recognizable theme, shot = through with some fun indulgence. Fiction: Because God Loves Stories: An Anthology Of Jewish Storytelling, Steve = Zeitlin. I just started this, on the recommendation of a friend (one of = my several non-LDS guy friends who's married to an LDS gal), and I'm = loving it so far. Jews can tell a story better than anyone, even better = than the Big Fat Greeks! We (Mormons) try to compare ourselves to Jewish = artists, but folks, do we have a long way to go. This is going to inspire a digression, which should perhaps be its own = thread. A friend asked me once: So there are 14 million Jews and about = 11 million Mormons. We both have a persecuted history, we both identify = ourselves with the same origin stories and the same destiny (The Chosen = Ones); so why are there so many great Jewish artists and so few Mormon = ones? I'll leave that discussion for another time. Boone's Lick, Larry McMurtry. I love McMurtry. Not just cuz I'm = half-Texan, or cuz he's also a book collector. This guy teaches lessons = about stripped-down, effective prose. Study his use of adjectives and = his dialogue. He makes it effortless. McMurtry is also the king of = creating natural plot occurrences that are so organic, bizarre, = out-of-left-field, that they seem like real life. It's a neat trick, to = plot like there is outline. Terrible things, wonderful things, = non-sequitor things, it all shows up. This book is not definitive, of = course, but a fun, short romp. >From A Buick 8, Stephen King. Okay, I'll admit it. I read everything the = man writes. He's my break from the more "high-brow" stuff, and I'm not = embarrassed to admit it. What King does best is take real people and put = them in unreal situations and watch them dangle. No matter how = outrageous the events may be, the folks watching it happen are drawn = from such reality that they sing. He's growing funnier and more savvy as = he ages (and survives near death). If you can get past language and = blood and guts, this guys can teach you something about writing. Hours, The, Michael Cunningham. Okay, brilliant. You know, I had an = epiphany when I picked up this book (and this is going to get us onto = another digression, but I can't help it - isn't that was this exercise = is about; to spawn discussion?).=20 Okay, so every so often, I will pop into an LDS bookstore and just start = randomly selecting books off the fiction rack. I put these books through = a little test. I just read the first page. I'm not reading for content, = per se. I'm not reading for story. I'm just reading for prose. I just = want to see: how good a writer is this? Do the sentences sing. Is there = something about these words that sets them apart. And you know what, = there almost never is. Well, it just so happened that I had done that = experiment the day before I picked up Cunningham's thin little = award-winner. I don't even remember what the LDS book was, but I threw = the thing away from me in disgust after a single paragraph. Then, the = next day, I pick up The Hours, after all, the movie was making a lot of = fuss at the nominations, and instantly, I'm hooked. From the first = sentence, you know this guy is an amazing writer. By the end of the = first short chapter, I was breathless. Prose, friends. This guy's got = it. Painted House, A, John Grisham. You know, I tried. But John Grisham just = can't write. He really can't. And this was supposed to be his first = "literary book." Just because NOTHING HAPPENS does not make it LITERARY! = Bad book. And it COULD have been good. It was not his story that was = bad, it was that his telling lacked any true artistry. In the hands of a = great writer, Painted House could have been wonderful. As it was: = Vanilla when you want Rocky Road. Still Wild: Short Fiction Of The American West, 1950 To The Present, = Larry McMurtry, editor. You want to talk about some brilliant short = stories, here you go. Of course the list of authors give it away. = Crackling. Again: prose, people. (So, yeah, I'm stuck in a Western = theme, but this is good writing for writing's sake.) The Tale Of Genji, Murasaki Shikibu. I have been slowly feasting on this = the world's probably oldest novel, and I am loving it. Even lover of = things Japanese that I am, this is lyrical, wonderful stuff. Truly = foreign, a transportation to another world. The concentration on poetry = is spectacular, and makes you think about symbolism and language in a = whole new way. I'm reading the new annotated translation, and the notes = are fabulous, indispensable. I'm loving it, and will probably be at it = for at least another year. I Should Be Extremely Happy In Your Company: A Novel Of Lewis And Clark, = Brian Hall. This is one of those situations like Michael Cunningham = where I picked this up while browsing and was overwhelmed by the writing = on the first page, so I had to buy it. I'm not finished, and parts of = the writing style (he moves from the perspective of several different = narrators, and jumps around in time) are challenging, but it is worth = the struggle. A marvel of language. There are a billion Lewis and Clark = books out there, but this one is written. This is art, however you frame = it!=20 My favorite books from the past 12 months were (in alphabetical order): Non-Fiction: The Diving Bell And The Butterfly, Jean-Dominique Bauby = (stunning); John Adams, David McCullough; the whole series of James = Herriot's Lord God Made Them All books; Me Talk Pretty One Day and = Naked, David Sedaris (hilarious); The Most Beautiful House In The World, = Witold Rybczynski; My Dark Places, James Ellroy; Reading Chekhov: A = Critical Journey, Janet Malcolm; Reviving Ophelia: Saving The Selves Of = Adolescent Girls, Mary Pipher; Shot In The Heart, Mikal Gilmore; and Zen = In The Art Of The Tea Ceremony: A Guide To The Tea Way, Horst = Hammitzsch. Of the 100 or so fiction books I read in the last year, the following = were the best, with respect to the writing: The Black Dahlia, James = Ellroy (very rough, but electric); Caesar's Women, Colleen McCullough; A = City In Winter, Mark Helprin (don't be fooled, it's not a kid's book); = The Corrections, Jonathan Franzen (what a voice!); Empire Falls, Richard = Russo; The Forsyte Saga, John Galsworthy (I was amazed at how much I = liked these old chestnuts from earlier in our century; wonderful = character studies, humor, observation); The Fourth Treasure, Todd = Shimoda (brilliant, not well known; it blends Japan, neurology and art = in a most fascinating way!); Independence Day, Richard Ford (see, = Richard Ford and Richard Russo are two guys who can write men who are = struggling, and yet come off as strong, in the end: real, but not = wimps); John Henry Days, Colson Whitehead (tour-de-force; worth all the = fuss this book got last year); Libra, Don DeLillo (also try his amazing = and unsettling Underworld, which is an even better book); The Tombs Of = Atuan, Ursula K. Le Guin (I had never read the second of the famed = Earthsea books; Le Guin is great, worth it, and reads better as an adult = than it did when I tried her at 14); When We Were Orphans, Kazuo = Ishiguro; The World At Night, Alan Furst. And then, I'm going through a lot of kid's lit, reading out loud to my = kids at night. After plowing through the obvious and ever-wonderful = Chronicles of Narnia, The Hobbit, The Rats of NIHM and some other = classics last year, we are now reading Edward Eager's books. Eager's a = little dated, and has a lot of references to other books (Ivanhoe, = Little Women, etc.), that my kids are unfamiliar with (being 6 and 8), = but fun, nonetheless. Happy reading, Jongiorgi Enos - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 07:12:21 -0700 From: Kim Madsen Subject: RE: [AML] Fw: Banned Book from Cedar Fort D Michael wrote: "Hmmmm... I'm thinking of my own novel right now. Getting it banned should be a piece of cake." Thought you might be interested to know that the women of my LDS bookclub, whom you graciously allowed to read your unpublished manuscript, were musing the other day on how it would probably be possible to sell your book to the national market in light of the Elizabeth Smart thing. They also expressed concern that it would confirm LDS people as nutcases in the national eye, and that a national publisher would probably want to add purient sex to the story. That seems to be the focus of the national media on the Smart case--what were the gory details, please. Kim Madsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 08:38:39 -0700 From: Kim Madsen Subject: RE: [AML] Role of LDS Writers D. Michael Martindale wrote: "Someone in authority says "appropriate," and the statement they use the word in is reasonable. But because "appropriate" is not defined--indeed cannot be institutionally since everyone has their own definition--those who waive their right to think automatically assume their own personal definition, then demand that everyone accept it as the official definition." Ok, I've probably posted too much today, but I have to share this real life example. Last week in Sacrament meeting we had wheat bread in the trays. I was mildly surprise, as this is not something we see often. I wondered if someone had made a special dietary request or something. Later I learned from my friend/neighbor/home teachee/ that he was called to task by the bishop because of the wheat bread. (he's in the YM presidency and in charge of the sacrament set up stuff.) He was told "it's official policy to use only white bread". My friend questioned that. He asked if he could see that policy as it appears in the Handbook. The bishop and his second councilor looked it up. It wasn't there. It's apparently not policy. Then the bishop said "we will NOT have brown bread again. It's an accepted fact that white bread better represents the intent of the Sacrament, and we should conform to tradition." When my friend questioned why that was, where the tradition comes from, he was told that it's a matter of approaching a "Celestial" form of being. Conforming, he was told, was the end result of everyone having their intentions aligned with that of God. Remember, all you AML folks, I live in Utah. My friend and I are having a hard time with the bishop's line of reasoning. I am choosing to "wu-wei" it (be the rock in the stream and let the chaos flow around me). My friend is still chewing on it. Ain't human beings fascinating. Bet God is up there laughing, shaking his head, trying not to cry, all at once. Kim Madsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 12:49:15 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Elizabeth Smart Found Alive katie@aros.net wrote: > Actually, in a way, I think you've already written it. Your setup in _Brother > Brigham_ has some striking similarities. Okay, the story's not the same, but > still... But my true crime book on Elizabeth's abduction would earn me millions more than _Brother Brigham_ ewver would. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 13:24:43 -0700 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Anita Stansfield in the News At 07:57 AM 3/20/03 -0800, you wrote: >The following article appeared in today's San Diego Union-Tribune. I direct >your attention particularly to the fourth-from-last paragraph, and would be >interested in your thoughts on the sentence the publisher decided to snip. > >http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontrib/thu/currents/news_1c20romance.html This article came up on the Georgette Heyer mailing list. We had a slew of posts with the heading "Mormon romance novels." It gave me an opportunity to mention the discussions among Mormon authors about this point. It interests the list because some romance readers dislike following the characters into the bedroom, while another contingent says that you can't have a satisfactory romance if there is no evidence of sexual attraction between the hero and heroine. So our niche market is not the only place where this debate goes on. barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 13:39:38 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male Clark Goble wrote: > Notice though how this type is allowed in comedy but not other kinds of > shows. In drama when the woman is *too* strong or *too* powerful she is > considered a b---h. Think of the Joan Collins character in "Dynasty." > In action films and shows this is even more dramatic. The male has to > stick to the old archetype of the rescuer of the damsel. When the roles > are reversed the show isn't typically successful. Although I believe > "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Charlie's Angels" tried to do this - > you'll note that the male side kick's role is typically very different > from most hero stories with males rescuing women. And in that > compatriot of Hercules "Xena," we had no male sidekick at all. Instead > we have a female acting the role, more or less avoiding all the > interesting takes on husband - wife relationships. (And further Xena > often ends up just being a male with breasts leading to claims of > lesbian subtexts in the show) How about _Aliens_? Popular movie, serious drama, and the kick-butt action hero was a woman, who also played a nurturing mother to the orphan girl without falling out of her heroic character. The weak characters were all male, but importantly, not all the male characters were weak. The strong ones were able to accept the leadership of Ripley as if nothing was amiss, simply because it was obvious she was the best "man" for the job. Ripley in this movie may very well be the best female protagonist in the history of film. She's certainly one of the best. In addition to this acceptance of a female hero, what I really like about the movie was how gender issues never entered into any of the relations. Even the contentious power plays had nothing to do with gender and everything to do with competence. The weak military leaders that resented Ripley's intrusions did not resent them because she was female--they resented them because she was civilian and usurping their authority. Those that acknowledged Ripley's competence didn't even think twice about her being a woman--they accepted her for what she could do. About the only moment I can recall in the whole film that acknowledged the existence of any gender bias was this scene (paraphrased from memory): The tough Marines (both male and female, by the way) are preparing to embark on their mission. Ripley goes up to the hard-boiled sergeant (who was black, and happily this film treated race as a non-issue as much as it did sex) and says, "I feel like a third wheel around here. Is there something I can do to help?" "I don't know," says the sergeant. "Is there so mething you can do?" A slight disgusted look crosses Ripley's face. "Well, I'm fully rated on that forklift over there." The sergeant adjusts his well-chewed cigar with his lips and says, "Be my guest." She straps into the giant waldo-style forklift, grabs a huge container, walks over to the sergeant (displaying obvious skill at operating the machine the whole time) and says, "Where do you wnat it?" The sergeant looks at a nearby (male) marine, laughs, and says, "Over there, please!" A brief moment of wondering if the "woman" could do what she claimed she could do (and I'm not even sure it was her womanness that was at issue, or her civilianness). But the instant she demonstrated her skill, the tough Marines accepted her without batting an eye, or trying to save face for their previous doubt, or any sort of hedging over their male ego. Now that's how life is supposed to be! And our overall attitude toward our literature as well. I am so weary of the whole "battle of the sexes" thing. I wish storytellers everywhere--and I fully intend to do this myself--would just tell their stories however they think they should be told, and gender stereotypes be damned. If the story needs a weak female character up against a strong male character, write it. If it needs the opposite, write it, whether comedy or drama. If they should be equals, but each contributing different strengths (which I like the best), write it. If it outrages the politically correct thin-skinned, who gives a rip? - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 23:52:43 -0700 From: "Ben and Jessie Christensen" Subject: RE: [AML] Elizabeth Smart (Moderator: this might be a repeat; my email died after I sent it the first time. However, if it is a repeat, please post this instead of my first message) Clark Goble: >That's not to discount what some are terming brainwashing. However >brainwashing is often taken to be very overstated as a real >psychological phenomena. (The recent media frenzy notwithstanding) Yes >there is psychological trauma. And yes strong people can make bad >choices appear persuasive. But by the same token God can't force anyone >to do anything either. For all I know he was inspiring many people to >question the girl. If she denies being Elizabeth Smart, what can God >do? I will admit that I had many of the same questions during the first few days after she was found, but unfortunately my understanding increased with the revelation that Elizabeth's kidnappers were charged with sexual assault. She was not just "brainwashed", she was raped. By a man who kidnapped her at knifepoint and told her that God wanted her to be his wife. Whether or not you believe in the validity of brainwashing, rape is a devestating physical and psychological weapon to use against anyone, especially a 15-year-old Mormon girl. I've been thinking in the last few days that rape is particularly terrible in our culture because we have placed such a high value on chastity before marriage. How many of us have had the old Sunday School lesson with the candy that gets sticky and dirty because everyone has touched it, or the one about how no one wants an apple with a bite out of it? (For some reason we forget that repentance gives us a brand new candy) Anyways, we tend to look down so much on loss of virtue that we sometimes don't think about the circumstances in which it was "lost." (When that came up in Charly I wanted to punch Sam in the nose. I would have left him right then and there.) There was a rape case here at BYU where the guy dumped the girl at the Provo Temple afterwards and taunted her by telling her that she could never go inside. Talk about psychological trauma. I guess my point is that I now realize why Elizabeth must have, at least subconsciously, thought her place was with the sickos who kidnapped her. Jessie Christensen PS-Is there any LDS fiction that deals with rape in our culture? _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:09:44 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] AML-List Moderator Practices >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com >[mailto:owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Proffitt > >If someone has ulterior motives or values destructive >discourse over preservation of community, they can take a >nice, worthwhile list like this one and turn it into a battle >field. There's no way to protect the community outside of >reasonably strong moderation. I mean, it's one thing to >protest in front of a government building with a bullhorn. >It's quite another to do so in my living room or some other >place of peaceful gathering. Okay, so what you do is have a semi-moderated list. That is, if a sufficient number of people think that Joe Schmo is just bloviating with no content and making every body mad, the moderator can delete the poster and make it impossible to receive or to post ever again to the list. I'm on a list where one guy was so full of himself that it soon became evident he didn't want to engage in adult conversation. The moderator ex-communicated the guy. End of story. >Yeah, but who is going to map out the line between "reveling >in excess" and "reaching inside our core"? Here's a radical idea. If no one complains to the moderator, the idiot is allowed to post. In other words, let us defend ourselves by majority means if possible. > They look awful >similar and the problem is that once the line is crossed, >there's really no going back. We're all grown-ups and all, >but we dance around some pretty sensitive areas that lie near >and dear to our hearts. Missteps are painful and can do real >damage even when intent is pure. Either ignore the sensitive stuff or complain online and tell the guy to shut up. How hard can that be, people? Thom Duncan - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:21:14 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com >[mailto:owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jongiorgi Enos >If I am a "strong" and/or "proactive" person, and I did not >want to go to church, for whatever reason, I would NOT go. As >a passive or compromising person, I would go even if I did not >want to, for the sake of my wife. Hey, there are a lot of >reasons in life to compromise, but when it comes to religion, >why be lukewarm? Be either in or out. So when Susan uses an >example of a man who would be out if the wife weren't there, >is this not speaking exactly to the stereo-type we are discussing? Or she could be speaking a male so hightly sensitive to his wife's feelings that he wishes to cause her no embarassment by staying home, thus labeling her as a woman married to an inactive man. Yes, the guy could be going to church because he's a wimp, but it may also be because he cares more about his family's reputation than his own discomfort. I would call such a man a hero of the first order. > >I'm not trying to paint Sis Malmrose into a corner, but I am >interested in a deeper look at the concept, because I, too >have encountered men who would not be there if it were not for >their wives, and personally, I'm not very interested in that >kind of a man, in a dramatic sense. Is that why a lot of LDS >fiction is weak? Look at that man as a martyr for the sake of his marriage and you have all the drama you might want. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 09:17:12 -0600 From: "Angela Hallstrom" Subject: Re: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male Scott Parkin wrote: > Angela Hallstrom wrote: > > > ...there's so much more condemnation that > > comes down on women if they admit to wanting to just watch movies and write > > stories and talk to interesting people on the phone all day long, > > laundry-and-visiting-teaching-be-darned. It seems obvious to me that this is > > the reason why women in the church seem to me to have a much bigger problem > > with guilt then men do (generally speaking). > > As a man who was unemployed for eighteen months, let me say that my own > experience on the matter varies with yours. My wife was (and correctly so) > viewed as the responsible one next to her lazy, slugabout husband who should be > working three jobs at MacDonalds instead of lazing about collecting unemployment > insurance. > > My point is that I don't think anyone is particularly free of expectations. > Certainly men don't get any free ride--any more than women do. . . In the end I'm not sure it matters > who has it worse; things seem suboptimal for all of us at one time or another, > and in one way or another. > > I think it's difficult to claim one set of expectations takes a higher toll than > another set does--they all force us to either grow or shrink. I don't envy > anyone their private struggles. > This is why I don't post very often: I end up writing something quickly and emotionally that doesn't precisely represent what I'm trying to say, then I read it a couple of days later and think, "Oh, I didn't really mean *that*." So I apologize if my post gave the impression that men are free from expectations and women are unduly burdened, because that isn't what I intended. My husband shoulders tremendous burdens, burdens I don't have to carry because he does, and I am incredibly grateful to him for that and honor everything that he has to take on by virtue of being a man. My post was more in response to Christopher Bigelow's previous post. In it, he made this observation: "By putting women on a spiritual pedestal, we can defer most of the spiritual effort to them, conserving our own energy for things we see as more practical and pressing, like our jobs and our pleasures. By aggrandizing women spiritually, we take pressure off ourselves . . . " I was simply agreeing that I have experienced this expectation in my life. I was challenging the stereotype that, as a woman, I *want* to do my visiting teaching more than my husband wants to do his home teaching, therefore it's easier for me to get off the couch and do it. A lot of women in the church are incredibly hard on ourselves because we are subtly taught (through our culture, mostly) that, by virtue of being female, our desires are somehow more pure or more refined than men's (and I'm not talking about sexual desires here, I'm speaking more of our desires to be good or do good). And I do think that, in general, women are still more likely to struggle with guilt over not measuring up than men are, although I'm not entirely sure as to why. However, Scott's post got me thinking about men's unspoken pressures, most particularly to *want* to go out there and be aggressive and work all day long and make a ton of money and be successful by worldly standards. I used to be a high school English teacher (an occupation I thoroughly enjoyed without having to worry much about the low pay), and, right now, I'm getting my MFA in writing part time while I stay home with my kids, something I couldn't be doing if I was also expected to provide for my family. It even made me wonder: is it harder in our culture (even more specifically in Mormon culture) for men to pursue artistic endeavors like writing because they are expected to be spending so much time "making money?" Could be. So, Scott, point taken. We've all got our burdens and our expectations to shoulder. Thank you for writing and helping me to see it from another angle. Angela Hallstrom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #1017 *******************************