From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #113 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Tuesday, July 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 113 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:40:38 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing On 7/24/2000 Marilyn Brown writes: > Harlow wrote: "I wonder how our esthetics would change if we looked > at art as proffered gift rather than as potential gift (German for > Poison) > > But I may not have quite > understood the last sentence (above). What did you mean by looking > at art as a POTENTIAL gift? That the potential might be the poison > it would fester were it hooked with religious symbolism, etc? Thanks > as always for your insight. Marilyn Brown Odd what sticks in one's mind from classes nearly 25 years ago. (Oy, do I feel old!) As a freshguy at BYZ I took a German class from Arthur Watkins (I think that was his name). We were reading part of a play by Schiller (Mina von Barnhelm comes to mind, but I'm not even sure if that's his play) and one of the characters gives another something to eat, which she does, then cries out, "Gift, gift" and dies. Brother Watkins explained that at one time it was common enough practice to give someone a gift of poisoned food that the word _gift_ came to mean _poison_. I believe a work of art is a gift, but is sometimes regarded as gift, as something that may look appealing but hide poison on the inside. In a way this perception is the doing of literary theorists and critics. The two most significant books of lit crit/theory of the last 50 years may be Leslie Fiedler's(I read that name just now and thought of Tevye's wonderful voice on the Yiddish cast album saying, "Wie, wie, wie . . . ein fiedler aussem dach.") _No! In Thunder_ and Lionel Trilling's _Beyond Culture_. When I say significant I don't necessarily mean important, I mean that they signify everything that has happened in literary theory since people like Trilling established modern lit as an academic subject after the war. The idea that literature says no! in thunder, and that the artist exists and should exist outside--beyond--culture informed the way literature was taught me from high school through graduate school and still informed the way it was taught when I was at UVSC a couple of years back. I became aware of the approach when I skipped some classes at Provo High one afternoon and hiked up the hill to hear Marden Clark give his BYU centennial lecture, "Art, Science and Religion: The Profounder Challenge" (in _Liberating Form_ (edited by one HSC with a note to him in the dedication)). We were hometeaching Harvey Fletcher at the time (who first observed brownian motion--though he was only a grad student at the time, so he didn't get credit for it: at his funeral several said they thought he should have shared his professor's Nobel prize for the discovery), and MJC made a reference to his scientist friends and said that while science can posit a universe without God, literature often cannot posit a universe with a loving God, given the immense evil in the world and the suffering of innocent people. Scientists can reconcile their profession with their religion fairly easily, he said, if they want to. Artists often cannot. Thus literature is a profounder challenge to religious belief than science. I've been thinking about this lately because my niece sent me a Deseret Book called _Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought with LDS Theology_, ed. by David L. Clark, for Father's Day. It's a group of LDS scientists tackling the difficult science-religion questions with kid gloves--taking great pains to establish their credentials as faithful members of the church. I could put together a similar book of literary critics, but I wonder if DB would publish it. We simply do not trust literature and art the way we do science, even though writers and artists serve as mission presidents, relief society presidents, stake presidents, primary presidents, bishops YW presidents, and in other callings as faithfully as scientists. Part of the mistrust is the profounder challenge literature can make to religious belief. But, as Dr. Clark said in his essay, those who take up that profounder challenge are missing the true profounder challenge, the challenge to create literature that affirms goodness not simply by condemning evil but by making good, and the lives of good people, dramatic and appealing. Anyway, that essay was my introduction to Trilling's essay, which I sought out and read a few years later. About 10 years ago I decided it was time to start presenting papers to the AML. A great deal of what my essays have done in that time is an implicit--sometimes explicit--response to Trilling. Trilling recognized the tremendous energy of literature between about 1830 and 1950, and that that energy was directed at culture, but I don't think he recognized the source, which I believe was part of the pentecostal outpouring that accompanied events like the dedication of a new temple and the publication of a new book of scripture. I believe literature and art was tool and beneficiary of that energy, and helped to break apart corrupt kingdoms so the Gospel could be restored. I think my essays have understood, though, that there is a tremendous cost to the perception that art acts against society, that we need to rethink our image of art. My major project for the first half of last year was a complex essay called "Lucid Dreaming," which Gina Clark (one of these people like Hugh Brown Brown's mother who married someone with the same last name), wonderful poet, reshaped with the simple comment, "You've set yourself a task with that title." I hope the essay is both lucid and dreamlike. I suspect it's what all my essays have been striving for, the lucidity of good litcrit with the dreamlike quality of a good personal essay. The lucid dream I take my readers through begins with literature as death and ends with literature as a gift the reader shapes along with the writer. It's sat a year, still a good piece, and I'll likely be presenting it at Sunstone (if they can schedule me for a morning session). My that was a long explanation of a bilingual pun. Was it lucid, or is everyone nodding off into a dream-like state? H. Soderborg C. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:06:10 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] AML-Sponsored Sunstone Session The Assoc. for Mormon Letters is sponsoring the following session at this year's Sunstone Symposium: Thursday, August 3, 4:45-6:15 p.m. (Salt Lake Marriott, 75 S. West Temple) Panel: Little Mormon Magazines: Sinking, Swimming, and Treading Water Abstract: The eagerness of Mormons to communicate about issues of interest has led to the launching of many special-interest periodicals, beginning in 1833 with the _Evening and Morning Star_ in Independence, Missouri. But not all of these little ships make it past shoals to the deep ocean of exciting voyages. This knowledgeable panel will identify their secrets for assuring prosperous publishing. Moderator/panelist: Lavina Fielding Anderson, president, Editing Inc. Panelists: Tory Anderson, former editor, _Wasatch Review Int'l_ Tessa Santiago, editor, _The People_ Chris Bigelow, coeditor, _Irreantum_ * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:27:06 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons <<>> That one was HILARIOUS. And another funny religion-related one recently = was about God answering a little boy's prayer for a cure to a terrible = disease. The answer was no. There have been many others. I look forward all week to Wednesdays, which is Onion day. Chris Bigelow - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:27:05 -0600 From: Steve Perry Subject: [AML] Perspective (LDS) on Harry Potter Meridian Magazine online has an interesting LDS perspective on Harry Potter which I very much enjoyed and agreed with. Steve Perry http://www.meridianmagazine.com/articles/000721potter.html - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: (No, or invalid, date.) From: "Marilyn & William Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Okay. I'm curious. You experienced both the simple and the essential in = the polygamist colony? Cathy, can you elaborate please? Marilyn Brown - ---------- > I just went with a colleague on a trip to Colorado City--to promote my = book > _Simple and Essential_ and promote essential oils. This article sounds= like > what we experienced there. (For the blessedly uninformed, Colorado Cit= y is > a big polygamist colony). > > Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson > Editing Etc. > 15 East 600 North > Price UT 84501 > > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: (No, or invalid, date.) From: "Marilyn & William Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] PLUMMER, _A Dance For Three_ (Review) Melissa, may I please say this is an excellent review. When you get into = all the "threes" it echoes the kind of connective awareness that I love = a reviewer to present. And you do a masterful job. Thank you. Marilyn Bro= wn - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:18:40 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Volunteers Needed for Envelope Orgy [MOD: I'm not even touching that subject line...] With several big events coming up, the Association for Mormon Letters is doing a large (for us) mailing to our membership and other interested parties. We need some help to label, stuff, and sort about 1,200 envelopes with flyers. The flyers are for: fundraiser featuring Chieko Okazaki, writers conference, Irreantum subscriptions/AML memberships, the annual AML literary symposium, and AML-List/AML website. We are looking for 5-6 people who can meet at 6:00 on Tuesday evening, August 15th, in Provo or Springville (either at Chris Bigelow's Provo house or Marilyn Brown's Villa theater--if you volunteer, let us know your preference as far as travel goes). The reward will be not only helping further the cause of Mormon literature but also pizza on the AML's tab (no sauce or pepperoni grease on envelopes, please). Come for an hour or until the job is done, whatever you're able. Let us know ASAP if you're a firm volunteer, because if we don't get enough, we need to pursue other avenues (kidnapping BYU students for our labor camp, for instance). Chris Bigelow, chrisb@enrich.com * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:57:14 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer The Pioneer Magazine (a small but proud publication produced by the Sons of Utah Pioneers) is looking for a good writer to author a piece about pioneer medicine or health. The next issue of the magazine (which will come out in September) is featuring the program where the Church subsidized the medical education of selected members to go back east and earn a medical degree. We have that piece already in hand. However, we want a smaller sidebar piece about health and medical practices during the pioneer era (1847-1860s). We are looking for something about 2,000 words in length and easy, accessible reading; our audience is interested in history but are not necessarily avid historians. Much of the article could be exceprts from people's own stories, journals, etc., or it might be a closer, in-depth look at a specific aspect of medicine or health during that era. Now here's the caveat--the magazine is currently struggling to stay alive (have you heard that sob story before?), and we are hoping to find a good writer who wants a clip for his or her portfolio--and nothing else. At this point in time, the magazine is unable to pay (we may possibly be able to pay $100, but that is uncomfirmed at this point). We are hoping in the near future, however, to have more solid financial backing, so we may be able to pay for future articles, but not this time. This article might be worth getting a foot in the door. . . (how does that sound for humble begging?) Anyway, if anyone is interested, please email me (kellene Adams, managing editor) at tkra@uswest.net. And by the way, if any of you have any queries or already-written stories you'd like us to consider, I'd be happy to do so. Our main interest is pioneer articles featuring aspects of life in Utah from 1847-1869 or so. Again, we can't pay yet, but if you're already got a piece written or simply want a great clip for your portfolio, give us a thought. Thanks for your time. [Forwarded thru Chris Bigelow] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:57:22 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ at Sunstone I had to type up the preliminary program info on the _God's Army_ session at Sunstone for a friend, so I thought I may as well forward it here too: Plenary session, 8:00 p.m., Thursday, August 3 (Salt Lake Marriott) "Mormonism on the Big Screen: What to Make of Richard Dutcher's Motion Picture Success, _God's Army_" Utahns have flocked to see _God's Army_ more than any other movie this year. Since opening in SLC in March, it has played, is now playing, and continues to open in major cities throughout the U.S. What are people saying about a movie based on the exploits of an apartment of Mormon missionaries serving in L.A.? Does its success mean that there's a viable big-screen market for LDS films and LDS audiences? Is _God's Army_ the breakthrough _Saturday's Warrior_ for Mormon film, and can we now expect a flood of copycats? What lessons should be learned about telling Mormon stories to Mormons? And is Mormonism at the point where orthodox artists can tell their stories in ways that resonate within and beyond the LDS community? Come, here what thoughtful critics and the filmmaker have to say. Panelists: - -Troy Williams, film student, U of Utah - -Geoff Pingree, director, Institute for Documentary Filmmaking at Documentary Center, George Washington U. - -Barbara Bannon, theater critic, _Event News Weekly_; editor, Sundance Film Festival catalog - -To be announced - -Richard Dutcher, writer, director, and cast member of _God's Army_ * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:27:50 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] MN LDS Drama Teacher Leaves Legacy: (Phoenix) AZ Republic This is a great loss. Ron Selim's son, Jeremy, is a current BYU student, = in the Theatre department, and a finer young man does not walk the = earth--hard working, kind, generous, bright. Ron was a wonderful father, = in addition to his remarkable accomplishments as a teacher. High school = theatre teachers can do an amazing amount of good in the world. Eric Samuelsen=20 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:55:40 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Jason, in a most thought provoking post suggested that=20 >I tend to=20 >disagree with Plato because I think there are ways of knowing, >and bits = of knowledge, that I only obtain through art--knowledge >that comes not by = reason or rational (logos), but through the >mythos and pathos art can = provide. >On the other hand, Plato's realm of ideals/ideas is divine in >nature,=20 What Plato really did was privilege the Logos, suggest that knowledge = obtained through reason was superior to other forms of knowledge. In the = Ion, he argued that the realm of art is divine in its origins, and = therefore suspect; the artist doesn't know where his ideas came from, = while the philosopher does, having reasoned them out. =20 The ideal forms of Plato are a particularly interesting idea, I think; = this notion that any actual chair isn't an ideal chair, because it's = flawed and mortal; the only real chair is the ideal form for chairness, of = which all actual chairs are merely imitations. I'm reminded of those odd = passages in Moses 3: 5-7, where the Lord mentions, as though in passing, = the idea that all things were created spiritually before they were created = physically. =20 I've felt this from time to time, this odd feeling that I'm not so much = writing something as discovering it, unearthing it, that my characters = already exist, and wait for me to give them breath. I think that art = exists as a kind of training ground for Gods in embryo. I think learn how = to say "let there be light" as artists, where the stakes are relatively = low. And I don't think it matters whether our experience of art is as = creators or spectators; both are valuable. For that reason, I place lessons learned from art at the very top of my = own epistemological hierarchy, just slightly below and to the right hand = of revelation. In fact, I think that great works of art are precisely = what Nephi is talking about in 2 Nephi 29:11. I think he's talking about = Hamlet and A Doll House and Huckleberry Finn every bit as much as he's = talking about the Koran. =20 Jason continued: >He may not have the details right part of me does understand >how he = might mistrust art--which can so easily be misinterpreted, >misused, = misguided, etc. (hence, the relegation of it to the realms >of 'conjecture'= rather than 'knowledge'). I prefer conjecture to knowledge. I don't think the realms of knowledge = are very large at all. Conjecture is what passes for knowledge for most = of us most of the time. And as long as we acknowledge that what we think = we know we only think we know (conjecture), we're on much safer ground, as = it engenders the pleasing sort of humility necessary to salvation. I know = precious little, and what I do know is mostly tentative. And that's a = good thing. =20 >Take, for example, the scriptures. They are much, much closer to >a work = of art than a doctrinal, theological or philosophical >treatise; they rely = much more on mythos and pathos than logos, Precisely why the scriptures are so infinitely more valuable than any = philosophical treatise ever written. >I think art is the attempt at some form of knowledge, and the >quest for = knowledge is always necessary and valuable; thus art >is necessary and = valuable, especially as a right-brained, mythical >alternative to = left-brained reason.=20 As long as the quest remains a quest, sure. As long as certainty = continues to elude us, sure. I don't know what the right brain/left brain = stuff has to do with this (I tend to find those studies pretty suspect). = I do trust a half-understood, half-remembered myth far more than the most = soundly grounded scientific fact, and infinitely more than the most = exquisitely reasoned syllogism. =20 >But I do wonder how necessary art will be after this life. Is it = >possible that the Mormon version of Plato's Republic is the=20 >Millenium? (Instead of an ideal philosophical state with a=20 >philosopher-ruler, we'll have a theocracy--which seems a fair >enough = parallel.)=20 Right now, from my admittedly limited, non-Millennial point of view, I'd = say that if there isn't any art then, I don't want any part of it. I = think it's going to be a haven for artists. >And is it possible that in that state, wherein we will have=20 >direct access to the divine, to true and pure knowledge, through >what I = can only presume will be daily direct revelation--is it >possible that in = that state, the ambiguity and uncertainty of art will >not only be no = longer necessary, but no longer desirable? (Plato >allowed poets into his = ideal=20 >state, but only to sing praises to the state, etc.--can we imagine = >anything other than hymns of praise in the presence of Deity?) What a frightening, unendurable thought. For me, the single greatest idea = of the Restored Gospel, is the idea of a dynamic, as opposed to a static = heaven. An eternity where we sing hymns of praise to the Almighty as our = only form of artistic expression is, very simply, hell. Heaven is a realm = where we continually learn and grow and develop and serve. And what will = we learn? How to create. What is God's art form? As Marvin Payne so = memorably put it a couple of years ago, we're living in it. Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:53:31 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors I read Catcher in the Rye when I was fifteen. It changed my life. I had = never read a book that spoke to me so personally, that seemed so true. I = mean, in most ways I'm nothing whatever like Holden Caulfield. But that = voice, that amazing voice. I heard it in my head for years. =20 Maybe it's a guy thing. My son loves it like I do. My daughter and my = wife, not so much. Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:22:28 -0500 From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] CARD, _A Storyteller in Zion_ At 01:18 PM 7/24/00, you wrote: >That postage is a bit pricey for >me, however. > >Chris Bigelow Chris, I'm just curious, why do you fuss about postage when you live in Utah and can pick these books up at any LDS bookstore, postage-free? Have gas prices increased that much in Utah too? ;-) I agree it's a bit high too--but I'm a little more stuck with such things, living in Missouri. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:26:43 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] CARD, _A Storyteller in Zion_ I do most everything I possibly can by e-mail and snail mail. I even mail = my tithing each month. (I dislike the phone and errands.) I hate the feeling of going to a book store or a sacrament meeting with = something nagging at me--"Oh, there's a book I need to remember to pick up = or an envelope I need to remember to give to someone." I prefer to keep my = mind free to enjoy and daydream. I make a lot of serendipitous discoveries in bookstores (and try to avoid = them because I always spend too much), but if I know in advance I want a = specific title, I always just order it on the spot via Internet so it's = off my plate. (That reminds me, Linda, I need to order YOUR book. I balked = because it wasn't yet on Amazon or BN.) Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/as= p/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=3DEB00016373. >>> Linda Adams 07/25 12:22 PM >>> At 01:18 PM 7/24/00, you wrote: >That postage is a bit pricey for >me, however. > >Chris Bigelow Chris, I'm just curious, why do you fuss about postage when you live in=20 Utah and can pick these books up at any LDS bookstore, postage-free? = Have=20 gas prices increased that much in Utah too? ;-) I agree it's a bit high too--but I'm a little more stuck with such = things,=20 living in Missouri. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com=20 Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo=20 Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo=20 My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html=20 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:22:00 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Following is the URL for a crazy letter in the Provo Daily Herald [MOD: disapproving of _God's Army_] that highlights the challenge of trying to create real, human art within the Mormon culture. Does someone want to reply--or is it not worth the time and effort? http://www.heraldextra.com/dh/dharc2000.nsf/4b499bca6a38efe4852567a2004c781e/8725683900647b0787256926002c5702?OpenDocument This kind of attitude is so depressing to me--or is it the only safe way to make it back to our Heavenly Father? Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:45:58 -0700 From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: [AML] SALINGER, _Catcher_ (was: Great Authors) >I read Catcher in the Rye when I was fifteen. It changed my life. I had never read a book that spoke to me so personally, that seemed so true. I mean, in most ways I'm nothing whatever like Holden Caulfield. But that voice, that amazing voice. I heard it in my head for years. > >Maybe it's a guy thing. My son loves it like I do. My daughter and my wife, not so much. Perhaps it is. I grew up in the South in the fifties. When I read this book as an adult, I was astonished. I had NO IDEA that those sweet boys I went to school with used language like this among themselves. I never heard it. I certainly never heard or saw the f-word. I never even knew the f-word for that other bodily function--the ones people simply pretended never happened. To me, the book is indicative of the fact that males and females are brought up in entirely different cultures. This is true not only in LDS communities, but in--well, probably all human communities. Salinger brought to life a culture that resonates with a segment of the population that includes Eric Samuelson. It made me appreciate the fact that the males I knew edited their speech around me and my girlfriends! barbara hume - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:23:36 EDT From: MarieUtah@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer In a message dated 7/25/00 2:11:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, ChrisB@enrich.com writes: << However, we want a smaller sidebar piece about health and medical practices during the pioneer era (1847-1860s). We are looking for something about 2,000 words in length and easy, accessible reading; our audience is interested in history but are not necessarily avid historians. Much of the article could be exceprts from people's own stories, journals, etc., or it might be a closer, in-depth look at a specific aspect of medicine or health during that era. >> For someone who might be looking for source material I found a "Medical Notice" by a Dr. Priddy Meeks reprinted from the Jan. 9, 1845 Nauvoo Neighbor in the October 1953 Utah Historical Quarterly. Dr. Meeks's journal, among other articles of pioneer medicine, was published in Volume X (1942) of the UH Q. I hope this helps if someone was interested. =D Shirley Hatfield - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:45:12 PDT From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing >Jason, in a most thought provoking post suggested that > > >I tend to > >disagree with Plato because I think there are ways of knowing, >and bits >of knowledge, that I only obtain through art--knowledge >that comes not by >reason or rational (logos), but through the >mythos and pathos art can >provide. > > >On the other hand, Plato's realm of ideals/ideas is divine in >nature, Eric responded: >What Plato really did was privilege the Logos, suggest that knowledge >obtained through reason was superior to other forms of knowledge. In the >Ion, he argued that the realm of art is divine in its origins, and >therefore suspect; the artist doesn't know where his ideas came from, while >the philosopher does, having reasoned them out. > >The ideal forms of Plato are a particularly interesting idea, I think; this >notion that any actual chair isn't an ideal chair, because it's flawed and >mortal; the only real chair is the ideal form for chairness, of which all >actual chairs are merely imitations. I'm reminded of those odd passages in >Moses 3: 5-7, where the Lord mentions, as though in passing, the idea that >all things were created spiritually before they were created physically. Jason notes: This is what I meant by calling the realm of the ideal "divine"--that Plato privileges it over all others, and that it is characterized by an eternal, spiritual nature as opposed to a mortal, material one. When Plato names the divine as the source of art, I don't think that's his reason for calling it suspect. I think most of the time he feels art is NOT divine in origin--THAT is why it is suspect. He simply argues for the potential of art to be divinely inspired--and I think that he would say that when it IS so inspired, it is good, but that it is rarely so, therefore suspect. Eric continues: >For that reason, I place lessons learned from art at the very top of my own >epistemological hierarchy, just slightly below and to the right hand of >revelation. In fact, I think that great works of art are precisely what >Nephi is talking about in 2 Nephi 29:11. I think he's talking about Hamlet >and A Doll House and Huckleberry Finn every bit as much as he's talking >about the Koran. I agree with this: in this mortal life, as I was saying before, art provides a way of knowing that philosophy cannot. But I don't think we should privilege it over all other ways of knowing. Knowledge is a sacred thing--the one thing we should be after--and we should be after it _by any means possible_. It never ceases to amaze me that artists can be so wary and disdainful of science and philosophy. The reverse is not true with anything approaching the same frequency (in other words, most scientists pursue, simultaneously, the study of art or literature or music, while very VERY few artists pursue the study of, say, physics). To me, EVERY way of knowing ranks "just slightly below and to the right hand of revelation." Revelation is the ONLY way of knowing that deserves privileging. >Jason continued: > > >He may not have the details right part of me does understand >how he >might mistrust art--which can so easily be misinterpreted, >misused, >misguided, etc. (hence, the relegation of it to the realms >of 'conjecture' >rather than 'knowledge'). and Eric continued: >I prefer conjecture to knowledge. I don't think the realms of knowledge >are very large at all. Conjecture is what passes for knowledge for most of >us most of the time. And as long as we acknowledge that what we think we >know we only think we know (conjecture), we're on much safer ground, as it >engenders the pleasing sort of humility necessary to salvation. I know >precious little, and what I do know is mostly tentative. And that's a good >thing. I'm not sure I agree with this, though perhaps you're not saying what you mean, or meaning what you say. We are commanded to seek knowledge, to be like God (and God relies on knowledge, not conjecture). True, the realms of knowledge may not be large (by that I suppose you mean that we don't actually KNOW a whole lot)--but that doesn't mean we should favor NOT knowing over knowing. If you simply mean to suggest that we shouldn't prefer knowledge to conjecture because it can lead to pride, or because our "knowledge" may turn out to be false, etc., then that's fine. I agree. But any true seeker of knowledge will readily abandon a previously held "truth" if a "truer" truth is uncovered. I think the root of the problem here is that you're shifting what was meant by conjecture. You seem to privilege it as a more humble claim than the claim to knowledge--but I would simply call this humility, yet a claim to knowledge nevertheless (i.e. I believe I know this, but recognize that I could be wrong). What I think Plato meant by conjecture is that the claim to knowledge is SO unreliable through art as to make it worthless (i.e. I really have no way of saying that I know this, I'm just guessing). One thing to remember is that, in defending the greatness of art as a way of knowing, we are of course defending GOOD art. And good art (even according to Plato) can be divinely inspired, and thus can offer knowledge far beyond and superior to conjecture. It is the vast majority of "art" (BAD art) that Plato mistrusts, and that can offer little more than conjecture. And in a decree similar to the Word of Wisdom (forgive the analogy), Plato dismisses all art because so much of it can be bad in so many ways for so many people. again, Jason continued: > >Take, for example, the scriptures. They are much, much closer to >a work >of art than a doctrinal, theological or philosophical >treatise; they rely >much more on mythos and pathos than logos, and Eric responded: >Precisely why the scriptures are so infinitely more valuable than any >philosophical treatise ever written. Well, I may have overstated things here, and I think you do as well, in your response. When I said "scriptures," I was referring primarily to the Bible and Book of Mormon--and still but generally to these. Yes, the majority of the OT, and much of the Gospels, and a great deal of the BofM, are built on mythos and pathos. But in fact there are many passages in the Bible and BofM that rely more on logos (much of Paul, for example; and Alma will frequently reason out an argument). And the Doctrine and Covenants is MUCH closer to theological treatise than to epic poem. So, again, I'm not sure you should privilege art so highly over philosophy. Both are indispensible. > > >I think art is the attempt at some form of knowledge, and the >quest for >knowledge is always necessary and valuable; thus art >is necessary and >valuable, especially as a right-brained, mythical >alternative to >left-brained reason. > >As long as the quest remains a quest, sure. As long as certainty continues >to elude us, sure. I don't know what the right brain/left brain stuff has >to do with this (I tend to find those studies pretty suspect). I do trust >a half-understood, half-remembered myth far more than the most soundly >grounded scientific fact, and infinitely more than the most exquisitely >reasoned syllogism. Again, this kind of privileging is limiting, in my opinion. Why can't science or philosophy offer you anything? We're supposed to learn of all things pertaining to the kingdom of God--don't physics, anthropology, philosophy, biology, mathematics, as well as aesthetics and art, pertain to that kingdom? This is, it occurs to me, very similar to the genre debate. How can any of us privilege one genre over another? None is inherently superior to another--each is merely a different way or mode of writing (or knowing). Each has its strengths and weaknesses. I tend to read more of one genre than another because it suits me--I understand it better. But wouldn't I be edified by the study of others? Should I dismiss them or mistrust them because they aren't "my" genre? No. Nor should we mistrust science and philosophy because they aren't art (or vice versa). We can be edified by them all, in different ways. > > >But I do wonder how necessary art will be after this life. Is it > >possible that the Mormon version of Plato's Republic is the > >Millenium? (Instead of an ideal philosophical state with a > >philosopher-ruler, we'll have a theocracy--which seems a fair >enough >parallel.) > >Right now, from my admittedly limited, non-Millennial point of view, I'd >say that if there isn't any art then, I don't want any part of it. I think >it's going to be a haven for artists. I didn't mean to suggest that there wouldn't be art. Plato banished art from his republic, but I wasn't suggesting that parallel with the millenium. I simply meant that Plato envisioned an ideal state, as does Mormonism. > > >And is it possible that in that state, wherein we will have > >direct access to the divine, to true and pure knowledge, through >what I >can only presume will be daily direct revelation--is it >possible that in >that state, the ambiguity and uncertainty of art will >not only be no >longer necessary, but no longer desirable? (Plato >allowed poets into his >ideal > >state, but only to sing praises to the state, etc.--can we imagine > >anything other than hymns of praise in the presence of Deity?) > >What a frightening, unendurable thought. For me, the single greatest idea >of the Restored Gospel, is the idea of a dynamic, as opposed to a static >heaven. An eternity where we sing hymns of praise to the Almighty as our >only form of artistic expression is, very simply, hell. Heaven is a realm >where we continually learn and grow and develop and serve. And what will >we learn? How to create. What is God's art form? As Marvin Payne so >memorably put it a couple of years ago, we're living in it. Yes. Again, I think you misunderstood me, and then you went on to shift the meaning of words I was using. I wasn't suggesting a static heaven--in fact, I was saying just the opposite. There will be constant learning and growth--eternal progression. And nowhere did I say that hymns of praise would be our ONLY form of artistic expression. But actually, Plato saw the artist as "lower" in rank than the philosopher; might we draw a parallel to the Mormon concept of God and the angels? According to the D&C, there will be those who are consigned to a fairly static eternity--they will progress only so far, and there remain. This is the Mormon form of damnation, and it exists at every level save the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Can't we say that, for those who fail to achieve this highest (and ideal) state, they will be in hell, unable to "create"--their only available expression being to serve and praise God? Sounds like Plato's poets to me. Those who do achieve the highest state will be able to continue to create, but here I think you're shifting the meaning of "art." Yes, we talk of the world and God's creations as His "art"--but this is metaphorical, no? Isn't art, _by definition_, an imitation of a reality (and this is not just Plato's definition)? When I suggested the possibility (and that's all I'm doing--I'm just speculating here) that art might be unnecessary in the next life, specifically in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, it was because I cannot conceive of a need for artistic creation when ACTUAL creation is possible. The artist is a god-wannabe; to aspire to art is to aspire to godhood, to aspire to creation. But no ACTUAL world is created, only an artistic (i.e. imitative) one. Again, that has all the value in the world, in this life. But what value can it have, I wonder, in a life where ACTUAL creation is sought? Art is absolutely necessary as a way of knowing NOW; but in that Ideal state, when one can always have revelation to outweigh all other ways of knowing, what might be the necessity of art? Just thinking... Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #113 ******************************