From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #196 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Thursday, November 16 2000 Volume 01 : Number 196 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:26:29 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Orson Scott CARD Speech > The best picture last >year was "American Beauty." It has the same message as "Philadelphia >Story," but makes no attempt to hide it this time. It has no redeeming >social value. It is evil from beginning to end. This is how far we have >come. Apparently, Scott didn't see the same movie I did. He makes the same mistake in condemning "American Beauty" as evil as do those who say that "Death of a Salesman" has no redeeming value because it's a tragedy that ends in the suicide. In both works of art, it's between the lines where the real message lies. It's what you talk about on the way home from the theatre. "Amercian Beauty" show us what's wrong with our society but doesn't lionize it, as Card seems to be implying (or D. Mike inferred). To be a totally evil film, the main character in American Beauty would have to NOT die and his wife would NOT regret her affair. The movie is about as conservative in family values as you could ask for. Only we see the flip side, the results of going against traditional family values. The characters end up suffering for their mistakes, as our religion tells us will happen to all unrepentant people. Thom Duncan - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:55:09 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (SL Tribune review) I swear, I used the "cheese" imagery about Deseret Book before I read the = Naparsteck review. . . . [see his last paragraph below]. Chris Bigelow <<>> - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:47:55 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life >It was found that the amount of porn >consumed in Utah County per capita exceeds the national >average. I'd really like to see the research on this. I live in Utah County, and = if someone were to ask me where one should go to rent a pornographic = movie, or buy a pornographic magazine, I would have absolutely no idea = what to tell them. I quite literally don't have any idea where in town = such items are found. And I'm from a small town in Indiana, very Bible = Belt and conservative, and I probably would be able to tell someone where = in that town such materials were found. =20 I remember the case; it wasn't in Provo, but in American Fork, and they = didn't see the Marriott from the courtroom, I don't imagine, since you = can't see the Marriott from AF. I even wrote a play about the case. As I = recall, the offending video store won the case but lost the war--the owner = was driven out of business by the protesters. And copious tears were shed = by all. . . . Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:31:40 -0800 From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (SL Tribune review) At 05:20 AM 11/15/2000 +0900, you wrote: >One More River to Cross is packaged too well. >Nov. 12, 2000. > BY MARTIN NAPARSTECK >SPECIAL TO THE TRIBUNE > >One More River to Cross > >By Margaret Blair Young and Darius >Aidan Gray; Bookcraft; $19.95 >Combine that with the chapter titles ("Higher Ground," "Didn't My Lord >Deliver Daniel," "The Family of God"), all from the Bible or the Book of >Mormon or a hymn or some other religious source, and with the religious >epithets at the opening of each chapter (example: "I know that it shall be >well with them that fear God, Ecclesiastes 8:12"), and the reader is left >with the impression that this novel is less about creating a fictional world >and more about getting the reader to accept an official church version of >history (the publishing company is owned by the church). I think this entirely misses the point. The inclusion of the "epithets" (a curious word, eh?), naming the chapters after often non-LDS hymns, etc., gave me the feeling that I was part of an experience not unique to the LDS church, but to society as a whole during that period. To say that this book promotes the "official church version" of the story just boggles me. When did the Church ever say that Elijah Abel was ordained by JS, but that the ordination was taken away by others who felt it wasn't PC? - --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com [MOD: I'm going to chip in my two bits here and save a post, since List volume is running heavy. What I understood Naparsteck to say--not entirely clearly--was that the packaging of Young and Gray's book was unfortunate, because it made it *look* like it was an "official"-type correlated Church history version, when in fact that wasn't the case. One can dispute his take on the packaging--I can't, of course, because I haven't seen the book--but I don't think he's saying that the book's *contents* are sanitized.] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:42:55 -0700 From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback I wasn't able to attend the conference because I had just been gone from home the weekend before for the Utah Council of Teachers of English conference. Too many conferences are held in the fall to attend them all. Anyway, here's some feedback on some of the topics you asked about. > 2. What would you change to make it more valuable to you? > I saw a list of speakers and although they were great, I've heard many of them > numerous times and couldn't justify more money to hear the same topics I've > heard them speak about before. > > 4. Do you prefer having a catered lunch, or would you rather fend for > yourself? Fend for myself. > > 7. What are your feelings about using UVSC as the location? I don't mind > attending conferences generally at UVSC. It's nice not to have to always drive > to SLC. > 8. Do you like the time of year the conference is held (November), or > > would you prefer another? Spring or summer ususally works better for me. Too > many fall conferences with my teaching and other obligations. > 9. Was the length of the conference about right, or would you prefer a > > longer conference (evening sessions, more than one day)? One day, no > evenings. > > 12. If you were to design the schedule for next year, what are some > > sessions you would want to include? Teen markets and screenplays > > > 13. What guests would you like to see? > I'll agree--Richard Dutcher and Anne Perry > - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:20:58 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback Christopher Bigelow wrote: > You've grasped something something kind of ethereal about the Young/Gray plenary session that I still don't really get. I wonder if the Young/Gray presentation would have been more suited to the AML's annual academic conference. I guess I could just think of a lot of things I'd rather have heard them talk about, such as how two people collaborate to write a book and maybe more about the publishing process. Certainly some of the presentation (especially Margaret's part) was useful and interesting for a writers' conference---I just thought it didn't send me away satisfied as an ending for a writers' conference. As one of the insiders on the planning of the conference, let me say that we had all sorts of interesting ideas on sessions to include in the conference, but couldn't begin to fit them all in to one day. We had to pick and choose and get what we thought was a good mix for the varying types of people we expected to attend. Ending the conference with Young/Gray had everything to do with scheduling challenges and nothing to do with lining up a closing wallop to a writers conference. I can see your point that, as a WRITERS conference (as opposed to a LITERATURE conference), more about the craft of writing might have been a better ending. Perhaps Dean Hughes would have been the best closing speaker. But again, we barely managed to juggle the schedule into place as it was. On the other hand, considering the theme "Extending Our Culture," the Young/Gray session hit that issue square on, and closed the conference with a high-level, issues-oriented approach to the theme that I think was a good general closing, even though it may not have fit exactly what you wanted personally. (And besides, I sat next to you during that session, and you snoozed now and then. Maybe you just slept through the craft of writing stuff.) ;) - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:41:11 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] VAN WAGONER Interview in Irreantum Cathy Wilson wrote: > I think that it's more important to get past our visceral reactions to the > characters and find the meaning in _Dancing Naked_, which is that our > feelings, responses, character, and ways of being in the world are forged in > our backgrounds: family, childhood, maybe our chromosomes. This is an interesting philosophy on how to receive literature. I'm not sure I agree with it. Isn't the meaning of a work of fiction exactly how it makes you feel viscerally--your emotional reaction? Otherwise, didacticism would be a desired characteristic of fiction, not a disfavored one. Maybe someone will throw a book in the fireplace that hits too close to home, but the message likely seeps through some cognitive pore anyway and starts working on the reader at a subconscious level. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:50:33 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life >>A friend who teaches abnormal psychology at BYU stood on my >>front porch in North Orem once and told me, "Thom, you would be >>shocked if I told you how many people, many within walking >>distance, many whom you know from this ward, are involved in the >>most disgusting aspects of human behavior: spouse abuse, child >>sexual molestation. > >If your friend really knows of people in your ward who are >involved in child sexual molestation, why is he gossiping to >you about it instead of turning them in? He wasn't gossiping. He gave no names. At the time, he was in the Bishopric and was indeed counseling many of these people. >>My first Bishop had an affair with the RS president, stole all >>the tithing money in our ward, and ran off with her. > >When your RS president defecates on your stake president's >front porch, let me know. So now it's a matter of degree? What about a RS president who went through the garbage of a fellow saint on Welfare to make sure she wasn't spending the Church's money on frivolaties? If you were trying to say that, just because you've never known a RS president who deficated on her Bishop's front porch, it therefore could never happen, I think you would be mistaken. In any event, the point Peterson was making was not the nature of the RS president's rebellion but that she rebelled authority. His particular spin on that is what makes it fictional. The fact that RS presidents have done similar things is what makes it real. >[...] >>>Apparently autoerotic asphyxiation does happen, but is it >>>realism or something else that has induced Signature Books to >>>publish two novels on the subject in the last 5 years? >> >>Apparently, it happens enough in our culture for President >>Hinckeley to mention during the last Priesthood Conference. It's certainly dramatic as far as literature goes. Maybe that's all the author's have in mind, nothing more. >>>In Kathryn Kidd's _The Alphabet Year_, there's a three-year-old >>>boy who lives in Salt Lake City and is almost always buck naked >>>when he's in public. When he visits a fire station, he "burn[s] >>>his private parts by sliding down the fireman's pole naked". >>>Realistic? I don't think so. >> >>Because you've never seen it? > >Maybe I've lived a secluded life. Everyone who knows of a three- >year-old who, who while visiting a fire station, "burned his >private parts by sliding down a fireman's pole naked", raise your >hand. That's why it's called fiction. A writer's exaggeration of reality to make a point. Thom Duncan - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:46:56 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life Let's not shoot the messenger, just because we don't like the news or want to believe it. My friend did not pull these statistics out of a hat. He is, after all, a teacher of abnormal psychology, and has availability to numbers that you and I can only guess at. I can't really think of a way to tie this into Mormon literature, except to say this: We as a people share many of the hang-ups in more or less equal proportions with the larger society. When we can admit that, and write about those hang-ups in an honest way, the rest of the world will start to pay attention to us. If we persist as writers to make the experiences of the minority of Saints (in my opinion) as the norm, then we will fall on deaf ears to the larger world. Thom Duncan >-----Original Message----- >Unfortunately - anecdotal evidence from someone who has only >really had contact with the "abnormal" and does not spend his >time with or studying or being involved with the "normal" is not >very convincing. Those who work with the "abnormal" often >become convinced everyone is abnormal because that is all they >work with. I know policeman who are convinced nearly everyone >is a criminal - yet statistics don't really back that up - but all they >do is deal with criminals so that's all they see and all they see in >others - regardless of the truth. > >--Ivan Wolfe - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:58:55 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (SL Tribune review) > One More River to Cross is packaged too well. > Nov. 12, 2000. > BY MARTIN NAPARSTECK > SPECIAL TO THE TRIBUNE > That is unfortunate, partly because such didacticism never produces good > literature, but more because hidden beneath that packaging is a fine novel. > One More River to Cross is good cheese didactically wrapped. When I read this article in the newspaper, my first impression was, "Ah, Martin has learned a new word, and now he's showing it off." That new word would be "didacticism." He throws it around like he knows what it means, but his examples don't maintain the illusion. I haven't read _One More River to Cross_ all the way through yet, but I have read all the introductory stuff and the first chapter and a half. I don't know what Naparsteck is talking about. I didn't get any sense of didacticism or a big, hairy effort to convince anyone of anything. I just found interesting information about the authors and why they wrote the book. Extracting the chapter titles from scripture is a perfectly acceptable aesthetic decision to me, especially in a book about religious people. The information at the end of the chapters about the historical sources it was based on is an appreciated addition, and one I'd like to see in all historical fiction. An effort to convince us? All these things seemed to me like nothign more than two authors being considerate enough to include some additional interesting information. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:43:31 -0700 From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback I was at the writers' conference, and I'm so glad I went. I almost = didn't make it. It was worth the time, worth schlepping the baby around...everything. Strangely, most of the people who have been chiming= in are ones I didn't see there! But it's true, it was great to put faces to names. >1. Was the conference worth attending? Why? Well, I just *said* it was....Seriously--this is harder to answer than it looks, especially after midnight. The thing about this conference was = that there were people at all stages of writing and being published, from the girl who sat next to me at lunch and was so excited at having just = started trying to write, to those who are already successful in the market. And everywhere in between. It was very heartening. >2. What would you change to make it more valuable to you? Huh. I wished it could have been longer...more sessions. As it was, I missed out on several things I wanted to see, and I had to leave early = and hated that necessity. >3. Was the admittance fee fair, or do you think it should be different? I don't know about fair. It was affordable to me. >4. Do you prefer having a catered lunch, or would you rather fend for >yourself? Was the lunch priced fairly? The lunch was one of the best parts, since everyone mingled and they let = the unwashed masses (me) sit at a table with people like Rachel Nunes and = Kenny Kemp, who is a very funny guy. >5. Which sessions were most valuable to you? The one about SF and the LDS market, of course, since that's what I = write. That was really great, especially learning how Utah figures in the = national market for SF. I can't find my notes now, drat, so what follows is hopelessly imprecise. Scott Parkin said that he'd talked to a bigwig = from Del Rey (one of the biggest fantasy publishers around) and HE said that = Utah was the third highest market in the US for speculative fiction, according= to their data. Wow. >7. What are your feelings about using UVSC as the location? Were the >facilities acceptable? Where would you prefer the conference be held? UVSC itself isn't bad--that is, I don't mind driving down from Salt Lake. The campus was very confusing. And the directions and signs weren't = really adequate. I'd prefer BYU but that's just because I'm more familiar with = the facilities, even after the extensive remodeling. Also, the ballroom = where the plenary sessions were held was nice, but the entrance was right at = the front of where everyone was facing, and I arrived late and felt too conspicuous to enter for the opening session. > >8. Do you like the time of year the conference is held (November), or >would you prefer another? Doesn't matter to me, except that I do worry about storms since I have to travel down the valley to get there. > >9. Was the length of the conference about right, or would you prefer a >longer conference (evening sessions, more than one day)? I said I would prefer a longer conference simply because there was so = much I wanted to do. In reality, the single day format was just about as much = as I can fit into my schedule. > >10. How did you like the guests of honor: Margaret Young, Darius Gray, >Dean Hughes? I am really sorry that I didn't manage to stay around to hear Margaret = Young and Darius Gray (though I did wait long enough for their book to show up = on the sale table). Dean Hughes was wonderful. The thing I enjoyed most = about all the sessions I attended was when the writers would speak about the creation of their books. I love hearing the stories behind the = stories--and that is more educational than a lecture, too; hearing how someone = resolved writer's block, or how an idea became a novel, shows me how I can do it myself, possibly. Or at least gives me an idea about a new way to = approach my own problems. > >11. Did you attend any of the performance sessions (BYU student films, >"I Am Jane" performance, literature readings)? Did you enjoy them? Would >you like to see other types of performance sessions? >13. What guests would you like to see? Michael Collings. Somebody in the SF session cited his "Taliesin" series= of poetry, and then this last issue of Irreantum had some of it in the essay= he wrote...and it was just amazing. I've heard him speak before on fantasy; I'd like to hear him talk about other subjects. >15. Any other comments? One of the best things that came out of this conference was completely unexpected: while feeding baby Cordelia (sidebar: it's nice to go places where people associate that name with high culture and not with "Buffy") = I noticed a woman who looked very familiar, and it turned out to be an old friend from Steven Walker's Christian Fantasy class who I hadn't seen in years. That just rounded out the day for me. I spent my entire book = budget in one blow and still didn't get everything I wanted; I came home = energized and ready to tackle this book that is having such trouble getting born. Wonderful, all around. Melissa Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:08:26 -0700 From: Gideon Burton Subject: RE: [AML] Which Virginia Sorensen First? 1. Angels 2. Evening and Morning 3. Nothing Long Ago I think The Evening and the Morning is a better developed novel, more psychologically complex, but it does not engage Mormon culture and history the way that A Little Lower than the Angels does and isn't as accessible as Angels. They're all must-reads, though, for anyone serious about Mormon Literature. Sorensen has to be in the top 5 or 10 on anyone's list. Gideon Burton - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:58:11 -0700 From: Neal Kramer Subject: Re: [AML] Which Virginia Sorensen First? Chris: I'd humbly suggest: Most essential: >Sorensen, A Little Lower Than the Angels Next: >Sorensen, Where Nothing Is Long Ago Last:>Sorensen, Virginia, The Evening and the Morning All three are very worth your time. Neal Kramer - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:23:57 PST From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] The Best American Writers An interesting list. Where did it come from? I find it especially=20 interesting that so many of the authors are contemporary and "minority." I= =20 have other comments interspersed below... [MOD: My "take" was that this was Renato's compilation of titles that had=20 been suggested over the List, in response to his previous post--which I=20 think had a definite slant toward modern/contemporary.]=20 >Here is the list : > >1) Saul Bellow >2) Issac Singer >3) Philip Roth (The second in the list) >4) Barbara Kingsolver Kingsolver's good, but ranked #4?? >5) Willa Cather >6) Toni Morrison >7) Charles Dickens (very known in Brazil) Dickens is British, not American. He's also the ONLY author on this list who= =20 doesn't belong to the 20th century... >8) Cormac Mc Carthy (The champion of the list) >9) Larry Mc Murtry McMurtry's good, too. But #9?? In America, to my knowledge, he's somewhat=20 popular but not read a great deal in the universities. >10) John Gardner I love Gardner, but he's considered by many to be too archaic in his values= =20 (i.e. he was very anti-postmodernism). I'm also not sure how Gardner makes= =20 it onto the list and not his student, Raymond Carver... >11) Ezra Pound ( very known in Brazil - a classic) >12) T.S Eliot (very known in Brazil - a classic) >13) HD (What=B4s HD?) Hilda Doolittle was a poet during the early part of the 20th=20 century--associated with the same era as Pound and Eliot. >14) Willian Carlos Willians >15)Sherwood Anderson VERY VERY VERY interesting (and perplexing) that Anderson makes the list,=20 but not Hemingway or Faulkner... >16) Steven Crane >17) N Scott Monaday >18) Leslie Marmon Silko >19) James Welch Welch is good, too--but I'm not sure he's even read that much in Native=20 American literature courses, let alone in broader American literature=20 courses, in America. >20) Alice Munro (A canadian) >21) Margareth Atwood (Another canadian) >22) Willian Trevor (An Irish) None of these three would likely appear on a list of great AMerican writers= =20 in America, because they aren't American...But I LOVE Alice Munro... >23) Thomas Pynchon >24) Don Dellilo >25) Robert Coover >26) Carole Maso I'm surprised Maso is big down there. She's practically unheard of, from=20 what I can surmise, up here. She's a very experimental writer, but nowhere= =20 near the stature of Coover, Dellilo, or Pynchon (in America). >27) John Updike Updike is VERY good, most of the time. He ought to be higher (usurping=20 writers like Welch, Kingsolver, and McMurtry). Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at=20 http://profiles.msn.com. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:31:34 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life >I feel it is important and some may disagree with me on this, but I like to >base my stories on factual evidence. The NYT (which I take to mean New York >Times) article could be valuable in helping us to write about real life and >real people, but is distracting if just overblown. Does it have to accurate to be "worthy" of a fiction writer's talents? Even if overblown, if one Temple Recommend holding member is involved in such things, wouldn't that be enough justification to base a story on? Regarding another thread and the incredulity that some have expressed about a naked young man sliding down a fireman's pole. It's rather a given to anyone who has made a study of human behavior that anything that can be imagined has been done by someone, somewhere. If a writer can think of it as a fictional device, then rest assured that someone else on this big planet has thought of the same thing and has done it. Reality? As the old saying goes, "Truth is stranger than fiction." Thom - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:19:19 GMT From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life I come to this topic with a slightly different POV. For various reasons, I hear a lot of stories--both in my work, where people confide in me, and just as a person. Somehow people can peg a listener and they tell her their stories. I hear a lot. I am convinced that, at least among some LDS people I have met, there is much pornography consumption. Men say so, and their wives tell me their worries about their men and pornography. Parents tell me their kids are into it. KIDS tell me they're into it. (I must tell you that I keep stories confidential :) ). It's not hard to hypothesize why: we Mormons can be weird about sex. Thomas More in _The Care of the Soul_ suggests that sexuality is basic to our human nature, and if we deny that, it will find a way for expression. So those many Mormons who aren't married might find their way through pornography. What about the married people that get into it? One family therapist suggested that improper sex has more of a kick to it for people like us Mormons who have been warned against sex all their lives. Another take might be what I heard from a schoolteacher in a Mormon town: "It's for those of us who want to save our marriages. . . " He was suggesting that pornography was an outlet for people whose troubled marriages had stopped their sex lives (evidently a common Mormon problem, from some of the stories I sometimes hear). Cathy Gileadi Wilson - --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: (No, or invalid, date.) From: "Marilyn & William Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Dickens (was: Real People) Tracie! Yes, Dickens was always considered a hack writer. Of course he = was more than that. That's why I never judge somebody--say, like Lee Nels= on--until time has passed. (STORM TESTAMENT keeps selling, and also his = other books. He sells DOZENS, HUNDREDS of books. All of the old ones keep= selling! Something like 100 a month.) I'm just saying, I don't judge. = I do judge Lee's spelling and grammar, etc. Sometimes it's atrocious. But= he's getting better. One thing about Dickens was that he kept learning. = His last novels were built on elaborate metaphorical formulas. He was ast= ute and nobody realized it until later. Thanks for asking! Marilyn Brown = - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: (No, or invalid, date.) From: "Marilyn & William Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Which Virginia Sorensen First? Ha, Chris! Well, okay. I'd read WHERE NOTHING IS LONG AGO because it's = short and more personal. Grin. Marilyn - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:35:14 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Writers' Conference Feedback I was meditating. >>> "D. Michael Martindale" 11/14 11:20 PM >>> wrote: (And besides, I sat next to you during that session, and you snoozed now and then. Maybe you just slept through the craft of writing stuff.) ;) - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:26:36 -0800 (PST) From: Albert Wang Subject: [AML] Michel HOUELLEBECQ, _The Elementary Particles_ Hi Everyone, I highly recommend reading the fairly recently released book The Elementary Particles by Michel Houellebecq. It is the most brilliant satire against the evils of the counterculture and the 60's mentality which has been revered in our society. The book is very moral and even burns down American commercialism. I love its controversial ideas and its celebration of humanism. It reminds me a lot like DH Lawrence with more learning and a scientific slant... sincerely, Alfie Wang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:15:57 -0700 From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: [AML] KINGSOLVER, _Poisonwood Bible_ (was: Dickens) My LDS book club is also reading Poisonwood Bible right now. I read it in less than a week this summer and loved it! Fascinating history of a time and history I knew little about as I was only in grade school when the events in Africa took place. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 03:43:12 MST From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: [AML] Bob HUGHES, _Behind Blue Eyes_ Hi AML List, My latest book (_Behind Blue Eyes: Sonnets from the Vietnamese_, from Mark Standen Publishing) has been published recently here in Bangkok. It is a mixed format poetic memoir of Vietnam. If anyone is seriously interested in it, please contact me at bobernice@hotmail.com for more information. (Richard H. and Tom M. I already have your addresses.) regards, Bob Hughes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:45:22 -0600 From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] The Best American Writers Jason Steed wrote: > An interesting list. Where did it come from? I find it especially > interesting that so many of the authors are contemporary and "minority."' > I don't think the list is supposed to in order of importance, just in order of how they were suggested on the list. Since I posted the first three authors, I must say they would not be on my own top 10 list of important 20th Century American authors except Bellow. Authors I would include based on importance are: William Faulkner, Thomas Pychon, e.e. cummings, John Irving, and a little know author F. Ross Lockridge Jr. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:32:07 -0500 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Real Life This seems to imply that being Mormon leads to hang-ups that make it more likely a person will indulge in pornography. From my experience (hearing the stories) that's not the case. It's just that we call it pornography and believe that it's evil. A large segment of society thinks it's perfectly normal. We have friends who have kids who have been introduced to pornography. It's been hard for them to get disentangled from. But always the kids have been introduced through web sites handed out by other kids at school. The difference between the Mormon kid and the friend is that the Mormon kid knows it's wrong, feels all the guilt and stuff that comes with that knowledge, and so forth. The friend, more often than not, has parents that don't care what there are doing, and chances are, if there is a father, he's doing it too. Pornography came up in a conversation with some close non-member friends of ours. She said, "Of course he looks at pornography. Everybody does. It's all over the locker room at work. It's just a normal guy thing." I, on the other hand, would be crushed to find out that my husband was involved in pornography and all that. I don't believe it's normal---well, I believe it's pretty far into that 'natural man' realm, unacceptable, and a grievous sin. Cathy said, "One family therapist suggested that improper sex has more of a kick to it for people like us Mormons who have been warned against sex all their lives." Would this fall into the "sinning against greater light and knowledge" realm? Sin does have a kick to it when someone's first involved. But I imagine that, even for Mormons (and any other person who would consider it a sin), the kick would wear off exposure by exposure. Isn't that suppose to be one of the hideous things about pornography, drugs, and other habit forming behaviors and substances? The kick just isn't there after awhile, and so the person is drug deeper and deeper into the filth trying to find satisfaction in something that isn't capable of satisfying. Obviously all this is generalizing. There are many good people who aren't members of the church that find pornography unacceptable. Having said all that, I agree that you can find within Mormon culture anything you can find outside of it. David and I always chuckle, though with a tinge of sadness, when people want to send their kids to BYU to clean them up. You can find anything in Provo you can find anywhere else in the world. Though I do think you have to actually want to find it. OSU is the major university here. The main street by campus is a building after building of bars, clubs, and adult-themed stores. The people who hang around the fringes of campus are some of the most bizarre looking people I have seen anywhere. The street the institute is located on is known for the parties thrown by the frat houses-the kind that make the papers because of the drunken brawls, burning furniture, and overturned cars. It is a totally different world than BYU-or most other private Christian schools for that matter. Bringing this back to a literature discussion-does it happening even once in Mormondom make it fair game for a story. Well, who am I to say what an author should or shouldn't write. However, neither should an author expect that a story dealing with some of these heavier issues will be welcomed with open arms. I listen to the women in RS. They don't want to read 'stuff like that'. Especially not from Mormon authors. A lot of them just never have to deal with those particular problems, and don't want to become involved vicariously. Others, who have had to deal with things of that nature really are looking for something spiritually uplifting, and they don't think they will find it in that kind of story. Those that might actually connect with it in some way will probably not find it. We have one small LDS bookstore. Only half of one wall is devoted to fiction. Most of that is the Rachel Nunes type of romance/adventure. Oh, it is way past my bedtime, and this has turned almost into an epic. So, wherever you are, goodnight. Tracie Laulusa - -----Original Message----- I come to this topic with a slightly different POV. [large snip] Cathy Gileadi Wilson - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #196 ******************************