From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #206 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, November 27 2000 Volume 01 : Number 206 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 06:44:37 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: MN Mormon Website Criticized For Copyright Violations > From: "Alan Jones" > A couple years ago I read a series of science fiction books > and soon realized that the author took the stories of the > Book of Mormon and put them into a futuristic world > on another planet. I doubt the author did this to hurt > the church. In this case since the books were new then > I contacted the church legal offices. They told me > they were aware of the books and that they were taking > actions they felt appropriate. I felt good that they > were aware but is was up to them as to whether > it would be a big deal or another little thing. This is obviously Orson Scott Card's "Homecoming" series, and contrary to Alan's apparent assumption, is not copyright violation. Copyright addresses the right to _copy_ the words of an author. It is not possible to copyright ideas. Nor is it possible to copyright history, as believing Mormons consider the Book of Mormon to be. Alan was completely out of line contacting the church legal offices about it, and their response to him I would guess was a polite way of brushing him off. Card goes into this accusation in depth in an article on his website titled "An Open Letter from Orson Scott Card to those who are concerned about 'plagiarism' in The Memory of Earth," located at: http://www.hatrack.com/osc/articles/openletter.shtml - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 08:36:25 EST From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Writer Gives Thanksgiving Thoughts In LA Times: Los Angeles Times From: Kent Larsen To: Mormon News Subject: MN LDS Writer Gives Thanksgiving Thoughts In LA Times: Los Angeles Times 18Nov00 D1 Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:00:00 -0500 [From Mormon-News] LDS Writer Gives Thanksgiving Thoughts In LA Times LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA -- LDS writer Kathleen Lubeck Peterson again shared her thoughts in the Orange County edition of the Los Angeles Times, telling her neighbors about her family's history and how that history frames Thanksgiving for her. Peterson writes of a Danish boy's hunger for food in the 1800s, comparing that to her father's spiritual hunger while growing up in a non-religious household. "Hunger comes in many guises," writes Peterson. She then points out that Thanksgiving lacks meaning in the face of hunger, and suggests that those truly thankful share what they have with others, because God gives us all we have. "We are His. He feeds us. He has bought us. All that we have is a gift from Him. And we, following His example, must give the good gifts, too." Peterson is a resident of Irvine, California and a former seminary teacher. She writes the articles she submits to the Times as part of her service in the LDS Church's Public Affairs. Source: Give Thanks For Hungers Satisfied Los Angeles Times 18Nov00 D1 http://www.latimes.com/editions/orange/20001118/t000110775.html By Kathleen Lubeck Peterson >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 08:18:58 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ >What can >we add? The Shaken Faith story has been written! At least for a decade or >two. What can we add? Since Laake does an abysmal job of writing in this book, revealing more about her own inadequacies than she ever hopes to about problems in the Church, I suspect a book that took the view that there is a systemic problem within the Church and that it does foster sexual aberration of a certain kind would be worth writing. What you're saying is why write a novel about Joseph Smith because Vardis Fisher did in the the 30's. Well, he did it rather poorly, again seeking to smear more than explore. Until Laake, or anyone else, gets the Shaken Faith story right, I think it's worth the effort for others to keep trying. It's not everybody's cup of tea. But some of us have been down that Shaken Faith road. Some of us are traveling down it now, trying to hang on by whatever's left of our fingernails. In a church where one seems to be surrounded by people who "know" the truth, it is quite refreshing to occasionally hear a familiar voice, even if it is as poorly sounded as Deborah Laake's. Thom - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 08:21:24 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism >I suspect, however, that the >perfect universal box has not been built, and that it would be >useless to try to define one since each person sees and learns in >their own way. Scotto, So what you're saying is that the Gospel cannot be contained within a "locked" box? Thom (making a quick and weak political joke and then retreating swiftly) Duncan - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:06:35 -0700 From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: [AML] Thank You (was: Researching Martin & Willie Companies) To the several of you who provided me with references and referrals for researching the Willie and Martin handcart companies, THANK YOU! very much. I'm trying to follow up on all the sources you've pointed me to, and in the search have found a number of others as well. It seems that over the past several years, with the several anniversary celebrations (Utah statehood, pioneer reenactments, etc.) there has been a lot said and written about many Mormon and pioneer events. Even with all that, there is so much more to be found in the individual stories, and some of the less well-publicized episodes recorded in diaries and journals. Thanks again, for your help! Laurel Brady - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:35:56 -0700 From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: [AML] Copyright Violations and EFM Interesting that the subject of copyright violations comes up the same day EFM is mentioned. I haven't picked up a volume of EFM since the 70's, but in the editions available then, there were hardly any source attributions, few original author's names even mentioned, no notices of permissions obtained and other fairly blatant no-no's. This was the source of quite a bit of discussion in some of my BYU classes at the time. Has this changed in the newer editions? Laurel Brady - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 08:36:25 EST From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Proclamation on the Family: Deseret Book Press Release From: Kent Larsen To: Mormon News Subject: MN Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Proclamation on the Family: Deseret Book Press Release 22Nov00 S3 Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:20:00 -0500 [From Mormon-News] Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Proclamation on the Family SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- In 1995 the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints published "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." In it, these Church authorities boldly declared revealed principles and doctrines about the relationship between the sexes, marriage, and family life. "Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Proclamation on the Family" (Bookcraft, $39.95), edited by David C. Dollahite from the School of Family Life at Brigham Young University, is a compilation of essays by more than 80 well-respected LDS Church theologians, sociologists, and lecturers that explores the Proclamation in depth. The book offers hundreds of practical tips for strengthening marriage and family relationships, guiding children, and helping families in all kinds of challenging circumstances. The rich doctrine and key principles of the Proclamation are studied and evaluated, helping Church members learn its doctrines and apply them in their lives. "Strengthening Our Families" wil be used as a textbook in the Department of Marriage, Family and Human Development at BYU. It is an invaluable source of inspiration and understanding to general LDS readers, parents, teachers, and Church leaders. About the Editor: David C. Dollahite is a professor of marriage, family, and human development at Brigham Young University. He teaches the popular course on the Proclamation on the Family. He was assisted in preparing this book by a sizeable number of other BYU professors and assistant professors in his department. See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573458244/mormonnews More about "Strengthening Our Families: An In-Depth Look at the Proclamation on the Family" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: (No, or invalid, date.) From: "Marilyn & William Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) As I thought about my comments in relationship with Jacob Proffit's "lost= - -faith" cycle, I wanted to say one more thing. I went back to Paul Rawlins' story and wanted to say that I did not feel = it was a "lost-faith" story. I really liked it, as a matter of fact. I = think Jacob's comments are good, because he is bravely standing up for = "resolutions in sight" but as I read Paul's story FAITH OF THE FATHERS = I find that "resolution in sight." I think it's a beautiful story about = the way our people often need to find reasons and explanations when God = takes the life of a young person, or some other unexplainable thing happe= ns. But if we say "it was an accident, tragic and unfortunate beyond word= s," this does not need to destroy our faith. And then when we offer our = own personal gift of human compassion: "I am sorry, very sorry," we are = making the only connection that can heal, really. It is our warmth with = each other, our caring and love that offer the resolution in sight. Maybe rethink that one, Jacob? And please don't stop reading all the IRRE= ANTUM stories? We love your brave comments! Marilyn Brown - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:06:54 -0800 (PST) From: Subject: RE: [AML] Inspiration and Art - --- Mike South wrote: > Todd Robert Peterson wrote: > > > I'm a little mixed up. Does this mean that art > can not be inspired or > that > > it can't be the result of the spirit? I have a > problem here because I > think > > that art comes from a place very much like the > place that my faith comes > > from. I think that the ability to see as an > artist, can, in many ways, > > be a gift of the spirit. > > > One of the big mistakes I think we make is > thinking that art is its own > > thing, that it is set over on one side, away from > most of the rest of > > things. > Mike South wrote: > I don't mean to imply that art can't be inspired -- > far from it. I simply > mean that no matter how inspired the artist is, the > art is still filtered > through the artist. > > Personally, I think this is a good thing. If we > simply "channeled" the > spirit onto paper or canvas or keyboard, that would > surely take away a great > deal of our free agency and thus take away from our > opportunity to learn > something from the experience. It would certainly > make art something set > aside from the rest of life. > > Instead, we take what inspires us and we use our own > experiences and > abilities to communicate it to others. Adding this > dash of ourselves into > the artistic recipe makes the art more palatable to > some people, and less so > to others. I think this even holds scripturally -- I > like Nephi's writing > better than I like Alma's. Both were certainly > inspired by the same source, > and I've learned something from each of them. But, > when it gets right down > to it, I identify with Nephi's experiences with his > brothers more than I do > with Alma's experiences of preaching to large > crowds. > I agree with the discussion above. May I add another aspect? I actively pray for inspiration when I sit down to write--that I'll be guided as I work on the piece to produce that which is pleasing to Father and beneficial to those who will read it. That doesn't mean I expect to "channel" a story--although on occasion I have had concepts or ideas pop into my mind at certain points that I realized later weren't *just* my imagination. And it certainly *doesn't* mean that what I produce has any spiritual value beyond being (hopefully) a good piece of thought-provoking fiction. But I do believe we're every bit as entitled to inspiration about our artistic pursuits as we are to any other aspect of our lives: family matters, Church callings, you name it. - --Diann Thornley __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:58:53 -0800 From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ Alan Mitchell wrote: > > In other words, why write a book about a Presidential Impeachment trial > after a similar one had so much publicity a couple of years ago? What can > we add? The Shaken Faith story has been written! At least for a decade or > two. If you kept strictly to this approach you could eliminate nearly all literature and art as being derivative. Some people like to claim there are no new stories left. I wouldn't go that far, but most literature commonly considered "great" recycles the same themes because these are the themes that are most important to human beings. And the same plot lines get recast all the time. The artistry is in putting them in a new light. > No harm meant to her by me. She was just mentally insane, as the Salon > article says. That is sorta evident by her book. I wonder how non-Mormon > readers come away after reading it? Do they believe Mormonism drove her to > it? Do they think it will do that to everyone? And do they think she is > normal? I don't recall the Salon article using the word "insane." She was depressed. That puts her in the same category as a substantial percentage of women both in and out of the church (and probably as many men, although depression is not as often diagnosed in men because it tends to manifest as addiction). There can be many causes of depression, but an inconsistency between ones inner values and one's outer lifestyle is certainly a likely candidate. So in a sense, the church may have been partially responsible for her depression. The same way I think the church interacts with the idiosyncrasies of some of Levi's fictional characters to produce toxic results. To blame the church as Laake apparently did is too simple. The interaction is much more complex and subtle than that. In that regard, I think Levi's fiction is more insightful on this issue than Laake's biography. But people develop in relationship to their surroundings. Culture affects people. And it affects different people differently, the same way a certain movie may be uplifting to one person and damaging to another. Is it the movie maker's fault if a movie has a bad effect on some viewers? I've heard some people on the list argue yes and others argue no. Is the church responsible for any bad effects it may have on certain people? Take away the emotional reaction that such a question is likely to generate and I think you are left with more or less the same question. I don't find value in trying to establish blame, as Laake apparently did. I think gaining insight into the interaction is much more useful. That is why I like Levi's work. I think it explores this theme thoughtfully without resorting to either whitewashing or finger pointing. Levi's characters don't have to be "normal" to illustrate the ways in which the church may affect us. And that effect may still be there, even if it is infinitely more subtle than it is in extreme cases, fictional or real. - -- Rob Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:36:42 -0800 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] MN Mormons Oppose "Godspell" I've stayed out of this discussion for lack of time but I keep wanting to do some rhetorical analysis. But first, a story. Recently I was interviewing a man selling his house to Lindon city because they had put in a 90 foot telecommunications tower a few years back which had lowered his property value. At one point he changed the subject, looking across the street to where a car lot was leasing land from the city. "I'd like to know what kind of pull he's got with the city." He then said he didn't think the land the man was leasing would be suitable for the fire station the city plans to build there, wondered if it would even be big enough. "I think they'll end up taking that restaurant next door. I don't know how she stays in business. There aren't five people in a day who go there. This Vietnamese woman owns it, got some money from the government to get started. I sure hate to see my taxes go to support someone from Vietnam. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not prejudiced against any group. I just don't think our taxes should go to support some Vietnamese woman who won't go out and get a real job." Despite the quote marks it's only a close paraphrase. I didn't write it down. It wasn't germane to the story I was researching, and people who say things like that make me uncomfortable enough that I choose not to spend much time around them. I was thinking he might make an interesting profile (in addition to the news story) until he said that. But why profile someone I don't like and give him a forum for his hurtful remarks? Of course, if his remarks had pertained to what I was writing about I probably would have included them, but it makes me wonder if I would have published John Rocker's comments if I had interviewed him. I hope I would have. Phrases like, "Now don't get me wrong. I'm not prejudiced against any group," or "Let me be perfectly honest," invite verbal subversion, which is what happened early in this thread. A lot of this thread has dealt with reactions to these two statements from 10/31/2000: > The Mormon parents, including Valerie Bentley-Ballif, > whose 17-year-old son Chris wanted to be in the musical > until he read the script, objected to the play, saying that > it is offensive and "inappropriate" for a public school. "He > wanted to be in the musical, until he read the script," says > Bentley-Ballif. "And he said, 'Mom, I can't do this. This is > offensive." [snip] > Bentley-Ballif said she found the portrayal of Christ's > crucifixion as an electrocution on an electric fence, > particularly offensive. "I'm not a zealot. But that was > offensive." Richard Johnson's immediate response, 10/31/ was to verbally subvert Bentley-Ballif. > The heck she's not a zealot. As far as I am concerned SHE is offensive. > Sometimes I am embarrassed to share the same church membership > with people who feel they have the right to micromanage the activities > of others. Verbal subversion is a way of protecting ourselves against lies. The phrase comes from Paul Fussell's book Wartime. Fussell starts one chapter by wondering what it was about WWII that "drove soldiers to constant verbal subversion and contempt," coining phrases like snafu, fubar, tarfu, fubb, and others. They would relish the irony that some of their phrases have entered the language as harmless expressions you might hear over the pulpit. ("Due to some snafu the Smiths have been in the ward several months and we have just now received their records.") Certainly, when they called something fu (either beyond all recognition, beyond belief, things are really, or even situation normal all) they didn't mean fouled up. They meant their acronyms as obscenities, offensive words to fight back against the offensive circumstances they were trying to survive. That is, the soldiers were trying to verbally subvert a PR campaign they knew would deprive the folks back home of any knowledge of what war was really like. (Incidentally, when _Saving Private Ryan_ (Oh, come on, can't you think of a good pun? Darning Public Irene? ) came out in July of 98 I heard an interview with Fussell and some other vets while we were driving down toward Cedar City (always reminds me of Bruce Jorgensen's "A Song for One Still Voice," his comment about the locals calling it Cedar) on our way to LA for my nephew's wedding). They were pleased that someone had finally tried making a movie that showed what they experienced during the war. When I hear comments about people not wanting to see that kind of carnage, I think, well, those aren't the people Spielberg is trying to pay a debt to.) One other bit of rhetorical analysis, It's significant both son and mother said, "It's offensive." What does is signify? Well, I keep remembering my marriage and family class from Larry Beall at the UW Institute (in his private practice he's done a fair amount of marriage counseling, but that's not the only class he teaches. When I left Skedaddle (second reference in one post to a story in _Greening Wheat_) he was talking with Bro. Carver who got shipped off to Moab about the early Christian Fathers. (Bro. C. told us about a book he read once arguing that Jesus was a Pharisee, that certain passages only make sense if he is a Pharisee and that the tension between him and the Pharisees was a very early and deliberate textual corruption--That's what my Jesus novel is going to be about.)) used to say about the difference between "You make me so mad," and "I get so mad when you do X." There's a lot of pressure in our culture to assign offensive qualities to art rather than say we are offended. I don't know why. Perhaps we don't consider it OK to be offended by something unless that thing is inherently offensive. But there are dangers in that. We might start thinking that anyone not as offended as we are is not in tune with the Spirit. Harlow S. Clark (who has more to say, later) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:12:17 -0500 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Diann wrote in response to my questions about art and faith and gifts of the spirit: > I believe that art *can* be inspired and be the result > of the workings of the Spirit--but that's not an > excuse for working hard to develop and increase and > polish what we produce--in other words, to do the > requisite revising and editing and all. Nor would I > ever consider it "set in stone," like scripture. Absolutely, and it is just the same with faith. It starts as a gift, but if you do nothing with it, it withers. It is this aspect of the comparison, more than the others that I think is of the most importance. The spirit, we should remember never got ANYONE of of doing any work. In fact, the spirit often causes more work for us, because we are prompted and prodded into action. In life as in art, our inspirations do not EVER let us sit back on our heels. I think of our scriptures that castigate people for taking no thought save asking the Lord or the ones that tell us that the Lord should not have to command in all things. Often times when someone says that their art comes from a place that is like the place that their faith comes from there is someone else who hears: "art equals faith." If anything art is congruent to faith, but it is in many cases a gift of the spirit, which we know must be magnified or lost--we have parables aplenty to warn us of that. - -- Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:23:00 -0500 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Scott Parkin made the following distinction: > Rather than "uneducated," perhaps I should have used > "uneducable" in some of those places. It's one thing to be short of > knowledge, it's another to be unwilling to seek new knowledge. and what an important one it is. Some people literally revel in the fact that they are NOT open to new ideas. That is going to be a particularly bad place for Mormon people to be when previously sealed and untranslated scripture comes into being, when the 12 temples start going up in Missouri. But in terms of this discusssion, the fact that people are uneducable is a horrible thing sometimes. In painting these additudes kept some truly wonderful painters from being accepted, and I'm not talking about Picassso, Max Ernst, and the like. I mean such shocking and lewd quacks like Monet and and Cezanne. The history of the Impressionists' coming-into-being, should be a lesson to us all in this debate: just because we don't get it, doesn't mean that it's not worth getting. It might take some energy to do so. It is this energy, I think, that a great many people (LDS or not) are completely uninterested in investing. I talked about work in another post, and it plays a part here. Also someone said that they know plenty of Mormons who just sigh and say that they'll never understand Isaiah. We'll we should all try since he is quoted at length by so many Book of Mormon prophets, even Christ relys on his words for a spell in 3 Nephi. I think that anti-Intellectualism, as we have been discussing it, is spawned, in part, by intellectual laziness. - -- Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:39:22 -0700 From: Tom Matkin Subject: Re: [AML] MN Fishers of Men: Deseret Book Press Release [From the news release]: .> Like a much-loved movie you see over and over, knowing the ending but > finding new things to revel over each time you watch it, this story > is both familiar and vibrantly new. We meet Jesus through the eyes > and views of three families, who have heard about him -- with > curiosity and some skepticism -- and then come to know him. > I listened to this book yesterday as I drove from Utah back to Canada. (It was only 6 hours, so I also listened to the last volume Dean Hughes opus on WWII, which pretty much filled the whole time for me.) I found the characters much more vivid and comfortable than the wooden fictional folk in the Work and the Glory series. I don't know if it made a difference that it was the talking book I was using and that I read the other from the page. Either that or Lund is learning his craft. I teach EM seminary and the lessons we have been studying followed the emphasis in this book pretty closely. I'm thinking I could give a lot of make up credit to any of my students who demonstrated that they read this book. :-) Tom - -- Tom Matkin www.matkin.com "The men who try to do something and fail are infinitely better than those who try to do nothing and succeed." - - Lloyd Jones - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:39:13 -0700 From: Mike South Subject: [AML] Alma vs. Nephi (was: Anti-Intellectualism) I wrote: >> I think this even holds scripturally -- I like Nephi's writing >> better than I like Alma's. Both were certainly inspired by the same source, >> and I've learned something from each of them. But, when it gets right down >> to it, I identify with Nephi's experiences with his brothers more than I do >> with Alma's experiences of preaching to large crowds. And then D. Michael wrote: > Perhaps this is because we received Nephi's words directly, while Alma's > words were _filtered_ through Mormon's abridgement. I think you're correct here. Most of the scripture we have that came directly from Alma's mouth are his sermons (when he spoke in the first person). Those are the parts I tend to think of when I think of Alma's writing and, frankly, I've never been very good at sitting through a sermon. The rest of his story is told through Mormon's abridgement. Which still makes my point -- because of the differences in how Alma's story and Nephi's story are told (i.e. because of choices each author made in how to present his inspired material) I respond differently to each one. I realize this highlights my personal weaknesses and eccentricities more than it says anything about Nephi's, Alma's, or Mormon's writing abilities. I'm just grateful that Father saw fit to include his messages in more than one way in the scriptures so that someone as dense as me will still get the it . - --Mike South - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:57:39 -0700 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) On (No, or invalid, date.), Marilyn Brown wrote: >I went back to Paul Rawlins' story and wanted to say that I did not feel= it was a "lost-faith" story. I really liked it, as a matter of fact. I = think Jacob's comments are good, because he is bravely standing up for = "resolutions in sight" but as I read Paul's story FAITH OF THE FATHERS I = find that "resolution in sight." I think it's a beautiful story about the= way our people often need to find reasons and explanations when God = takes the life of a young person, or some other unexplainable thing = happens. But if we say "it was an accident, tragic and unfortunate beyond= words," this does not need to destroy our faith. And then when we offer = our own personal gift of human compassion: "I am sorry, very sorry," we = are making the only connection that can heal, really. It is our warmth = with each other, our caring and love that offer the resolution in sight. The reason I had such a strong reaction to "Faith of the Fathers" is = because I was so frustrated with the father. The gospel has a great deal to say that is tailored exactly for such situations. I'm not asking for a tract= on "proper" gospel reactions to tragedy in the story, but would a prayer = that actually is answered be so much to ask? Could we see the hand of God *at all*? Or even a man who supposedly represents a universal church type actually *try* to find answers in prayer, scripture, or ecclesiastical advice? As a father, I kept waiting for this man to turn to any of the myriad avenues available to him to help his ailing family out. That he turned instead to some adolescent homily for his understanding is just disturbing and the implication that I should accept the story as an = insight to fathers of faith is absurd. Note that this is a very personal reaction and I recognize it as such. I don't expect my reaction to be universal or even representative of anyone else who might read the story. But I do find my reaction similar to my reaction to reading other stories and so I *am* trying to point out that = I am tired of stories that purport to represent a general LDS perspective = that nevertheless display a lack of anything like an active, loving God in = them. Or active faith on the part of the protagonists. >Maybe rethink that one, Jacob? And please don't stop reading all the = IRREANTUM stories? We love your brave comments! Marilyn Brown I'm certainly willing to re-examine my reaction to "Faith of the Fathers" and/or discuss it at length. I rather doubt my opinion of it will = change, though. My opinion of Maureen Whipple certainly hasn't and a lot of = people I respect oppose me on that one. I *am* reading the rest of the stories, but mainly due to a sense of duty because I opened my big mouth. So far, I've only read the first three. I've also been saving Chris Bigelow's response to reply to because I think that editorial intent and reader assumptions are important. As to the other two stories: I'm not a fan of cowboy/frontier stories = though I found it interesting having a family pray that their deception will = work. I *really* liked Dorothy Peterson's "The House". What a wonderful story. The gospel is at the heart of this story even though it is essentially = about a, um, I don't know, lapsed? Mormon. Not only is it well and engagingly written, but the characters drew me in immediately and the conclusion = left me reeling in a good way. I particularly like how by the end I am = willing to remap my relationship to characters, including the house, and I'm = happy to put some symbolism there and tack on "The House of God" or some such sappy thing. I am really glad I didn't miss this story as that would = have been tragic. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:24:35 -0200 From: "renatorigo" Subject: RE: [AML] Inspiration and Art > In my opinion the process of creating a book is an architectural process. In my case when I create a book (I=B4m not a writer for profession but I have some plays and books that I=B4ve been writing since I was 17) I could explain my process of creation as below: 1. Have an Idea (we need inspiration) 2. Estructure the Idea - the basic structure of the book 3. Development of the Idea (We have to create caracters , the sceenes, the situations, the personalities...the psychology conclusion of each paragraph...Here we need writing technic, literature background and inspiration) 4. Final review - verify the main points, writing mistakes, and mainly the coerence of each step of the book...of each personality. Well, this is my process....I don=B4t know if it=B4s ok because I never published a book...(I intent to publish my first one next year). I would like to have everybody describing its own process during the creating of a book... And Then we could verify the importance of the inspiration in each process... Renato Rigo renatorigo@ig.com.br - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:27:22 -0700 From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art (was Anti-Intellectualism) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism Diann Thornley wrote: > I believe that art *can* be inspired and be the result > of the workings of the Spirit--but that's not an > excuse for working hard to develop and increase and > polish what we produce--in other words, to do the > requisite revising and editing and all. Nor would I > ever consider it "set in stone," like scripture. > > In my own experience, the inspiration has come as a > single idea here and one there, which I am left to > develop and flesh out on my own; I've never had a > complete plot flow into my head with every detail > described. Rather, as I work with one idea, and > develop it, another insight may--or may not--appear. > I suppose it could be compared to line upon line, here > a little and there a little. I have a question on this thread that I'd like to run past the group. It's really not one specific question, but deals with the extent and nature of the inspiration we receive in the way Diann describes. The circumstances that prompt my question come from the experience of George F. Handel when he was writing the Hallelujah Chorus for Messiah. He relates that a vision opened to him and he saw and heard a heavenly choir singing the Chorus before the throne of God. He wrote it down as he heard them sing it. (Great tear blotches on the original manuscript attest to the powerful spiritual experience this was for him.) Now here's what is curious to me. Who actually wrote this Chorus? It is unquestionably in Handel's style. Did he write it in the pre-existence? Was he plagorizing, halucinating, or was his pre-existent work revealed to him in this experience? Is that how we receive inspiration for our art? How do you suppose all this works? Richard Hopkins - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #206 ******************************