From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #217 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, December 11 2000 Volume 01 : Number 217 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 16:03:03 -0600 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Moderator Note) Folks, We're probably largely past this point in the discussion by now, but I'd like to request that we try to keep to a certain side of a rather subtle line in our discussion of judgments and decisions by General Authorities. That is, while it's fine to talk about the difficulties raised by institutional constraints--including the decisions by General Authorities--and the (perhaps unfortunate) consequences for art, it would be better if we stopped short of statements that could be viewed as criticisms of General Authorities acting within their callings. Examples of statements that (I think) are okay for our List: * "It's sure hard to make a good play when you have to adjust to outside requirements coming from General Authorities." * "It was a much better play before we had to make the revisions that the General Authorities required." * "I think the revisions made the play less likely to touch the hearts of non-members." * "I think the Church would be better served if it simply hired artists to do the job and then let them do it instead of micromanaging." But not: * "The General Authorities should not have done what they did." The first four statements make a judgment of the artistic results of policies, or whether a particular procedure seems wise within the artistic realm. The last example makes a judgmental statement about the General Authorities themselves, acting within their calling. A fine line, but a potentially important one. Obviously, other people would draw the line elsewhere, not here. For that matter, I haven't necessarily been drawing the line at this point myself--but after consideration, I think this is where I would prefer to draw it from this point on. So rather than deal with this on a case-by-case basis and leave people wondering what my rationale is for my decisions (if any), I thought it would be best simply to spell out my thinking for everyone concerned. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator (who is hoping to get back to being more unobtrusive one of these days...) - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 16:01:05 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Anti-Intellectualism I haven't much to respond to in Harlow's brilliant post. But I would like = to comment on one aspect of his discussion. On the list, we haven't said much about the current Presidential controvers= y, nor do I propose to say much about it now. However, I have recently = read a Walter Williams column which corresponded, actually, to an email I = received from a friend. In both cases, the writers looked at the states = which voted for Bush and the states that voted for Gore, and attempted to = draw certain moral conclusions about the voters in each. In Williams' = column, for example, he said that voters for Bush tend to be from the = Bible belt, which suggests that they are God-fearing and patriotic, which = suggests in turn a certain moral bent. My friend's email pointed to a = higher degree of education in Gore-voting states, suggesting that smarter = people voted for Gore than Bush. And so we get to judge each other on a = grand national scale, judgment raised to levels of super-patriotism. Bush = voters are moral! (and Gore voters, by implication, less so.) Gore voters = are smart! (And Bush voters, by implication, dummies.) And so on. And perhaps we're doing the same thing on the Church culture level, = extolling, on the one hand, the presumed child-like faith (and implied = faithlessness in the other camp) of church conservative/laypersons, and = the presumed intellectual polish (and implied naive ignorance of the other = camp) of liberals/intellectuals. =20 We can't do this, folks. Someday soon, the courts, likely enough, will = decide who won the election, and the winner will be the President, = deserving and needing the support of the American people. And we're all = brothers and sisters together. Family squabbles are permitted, briefly. = Family quarrels must be mended. Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 14:53:08 -0800 From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Orgazmo There's a howlingly funny (and incredibly poor taste) adult cartoon comedy here in the States called "South Park." Its creators put together this spoof of Mormon missionaries for a full-length film. The idea is that a missionary is enticed into starring in a series of porn movies. Their depiction of Mormon life is spoofed relentlessly. It is definitely not a "kosher" LDS production, and it's not particularly well done. But it DOES have its moments. I actually bought the tape, and found myself alternately amused/offended. At 03:45 PM 12/7/2000 +1000, you wrote: >Could someone please fill me in on this movie. It doesn't sound like a >kosher LDS >production, but from this post appears related to LDS lifestyle in some way. > >Helena [Chester] > - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 17:54:48 -0700 From: "Marie Knowlton" Subject: [AML] Note from Marilyn Brown
Greetings, everyone!
Marilyn Brown is having computer difficulties and hasn't been able to go online for a week. She says to tell you that she misses you all dreadfully and will be back as soon as she gets her computer fixed or gets a new one. She would like for someone in Salt Lake (perhaps Darlene?) to make reservations at Guadalahonky's if we are expecting a big group to show up. She will try to be there but may not be able to, due a prior commitment at the theatre.  (I'm going up there and look forward to meeting many of you!   Marie ).

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[MOD: I believe Chris Bigelow is taking care of this.] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 19:23:52 -0800 From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] National Inroads for Mormon Lit

Congrats, Christopher! I just have a comment or two about Elizabeth Wales's response:

> Does anyone know Elizabeth Wales at LEVANT & WALES, LITERARY
>AGENCY, INC.? She used to be an editor at Viking Penguin. She called
>and asked for the first few chapters of the manuscript and said
>something like, "We have been expecting some good writing to come out
>of Mormonism, because it has such extreme dogma." What do you think
>she meant?

This kind of response, though I wish it didn't, puts me on the defensive a little. Not because of the assertion that Mormonism has "such extreme dogma," but because of the implication that Mormonism's dogma ought to be what produces "some good writing." In other words, this kind of response makes me wonder what Elizabeth is looking for. Is she hoping to find the juicy piece that "exposes" Mormonism for what it "really" is--an oppressive, repressive, cultish, extremist, sexist, homophobic, or [list a number of other "exposable" traits here] group that is supposedly is? (Admittedly, Mormonism can and does assume some or all of these traits at times, depending on how they're defined or perceived...)

What I mean is, it seems to me that though there are a lot of admirable memoirs out there, there are also a lot of 'em that boil down to someone whining about what a hard-done-by life they've had, and then making money off it in book sales. And Elizabeth's response feels, to me, like that's what she's looking for--someone to write about what a hard-done-by life the "extreme dogma" of Mormonism imposes on its members, so that money can be made (let's face it, the country would love to read about an "insiders" "exposure" of the horrors of Mormonism).

Of course, I'm not even remotely suggesting that this is what your book is about--and your cover letter seems to make that clear, and it's a good one, by the way. And I would certainly go ahead and see how far you can get with Elizabeth, by sending her ms pages, etc. But if it were me, I'd probably be a little wary of her expectations.

But then, I might be acting paranoid, or touchy. I could be reading too much into what she says... Again, though, congrats on the responses you've received, and good luck!

Jason


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- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:21:22 -0600 From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Slover's "Joyful Noise" Plays Salt Lake City Also: Salt Lake Tribune From: Kent Larsen To: Mormon News Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:30:00 -0500 Subject: MN Slover's "Joyful Noise" Plays Salt Lake City Also: Salt Lake Tribune 1Dec00 A2 [From Mormon News] Slover's "Joyful Noise" Plays Salt Lake City Also SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- LDS playwright Tim Slover's award-winning play "Joyful Noise" is being presented in Salt Lake City this Christmas season. The play was reviewed last week in the Salt Lake Tribune, which said it "blends gentle humor with moments of pathos, and is underlaid with an interesting (and topical) debate about conflicts that arise between organized religion and artistic expression." Reviewer Baker adds that the show is a "practical product for regional theater" with a connection to the Holiday season that makes it appealing. As previously reported in Mormon News, the play is also being produced in Atlanta. While Baker says that the play shows "Tim Slover to be a clever and talented playwright," she is not without some criticism. Baker says that the changes experienced onstage by the characters need more justification, and finds the moral changes experienced by some characters in the play's final minutes "convenient" and says they "don't quite ring true." Baker also criticizes this production, complaining that the thin-sounding recording used for the chorus doesn't do justice to Handel's work. Nevertheless, Baker recommends the play, and suggests that it is well suited for regional theaters. She says the plays small cast and modest staging requirements make it easy to put on, and "Add to that the fact that one of the most enduringly popular pieces of classical music ever written is woven into this play . . . and it's apparent that Slover has come up with a marketable product." "Joyful Noise" continues at the University of Utah's Simmons Pioneer Memorial Theater through December 16th. It also continues in Atlanta's 14th Street Playhouse through December 24th. Source: Slover's Clever 'Joyful Noise' Rates a Hallelujah or Two Salt Lake Tribune 1Dec00 A2 http://www.sltrib.com:80/12012000/friday/49431.htm By Celia R. Baker: Salt Lake Tribune >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 22:57:24 -0600 From: Terry L Jeffress (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Folk Etymology (was: _Savior of the World_) On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 08:11:20AM -0700, Scott Tarbet wrote: >This reminds me of Chesterton's wager that he could get a made-up word >introduced into the English lexicon and into wide use in a period of a few >months, as evidenced by it appearing in print in the Times of London from a >writer unacquainted with the wager. The word: "quiz". The folk etymology for "quiz" goes something like this: Supposedly a Dublin theater owner, James Daly, made a wager in 1791 that he could get a new word in circulation in 24-hours. He then hired street urchins to write the word "quiz" on the walls around the city and won the bet.* So far, no one has produced concrete evidence to validate the story, and the OED lists evidence of the word as early as 1782 and the alt.usage.english clams as early as 1775. Most dictionaries, including Merrimam-Webster and the American Heritage, list the etymology as "origin unknown." - -- Terry L Jeffress AML Webmaster and AML-List Review Archivist * For references to the James Daly story, see your nearest search engine or the following: http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-qui1.htm -- Michael Quinion's site is worth exploring for its vast collection of word-related information and trivia http://www.wilton.net/wordorq.htm#quiz http://www.landfield.com/faqs/alt-usage-english-faq/ -- warning LARGE file but lots of interesting tidbits - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 05:00:23 +1100 From: Helena Chester Subject: Re: [AML] Orgazmo Jeff Needle wrote: > There's a howlingly funny (and incredibly poor taste) adult cartoon comedy > here in the States called "South Park." Its creators put together this > spoof of Mormon missionaries for a full-length film. The idea is that a > missionary is enticed into starring in a series of porn movies. Their > depiction of Mormon life is spoofed relentlessly. Thanks for this information. We get "South Park" in Australia, but TV viewing (except for BYU-TV) is not something I make a lot of time for, and I've only watched one episode in my whole life. I found it really funny, but not the sort of thing I would routinely watch. Helena - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 00:09:07 -0600 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] _Savior of the World_ (Drama) Scott Tarbet wrote: > IMO an artist is anyone who sets out to make art. Does that make anyone who sets out to fix teeth a dentist? I know this takes us in a different direction, but this is a perspective that really causes some problems. Something does separate people who can play music from musicians and people who write from writers. I'm not 100% sure what that is but I have some ideas. As for my initial comment, I don't think it is apples/oranges in the least. - -- Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 09:55:47 -0600 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Mod. Note: Message Formats Folks, Several messages have come through recently that are in HTML format. Some List members have difficulty reading these messages, which come through with a great deal of coding on some e-mail programs. I'd like to encourage everyone to send messages in simple text format. Please also avoid making use of special features such as "curly" quotes, bold, italics, etc., in the messages you send. All of these come through as peculiar characters, or get lost entirely, in noncompatible e-mail programs. Lamentably, the e-mail world is still rife with noncompatible programs. I'm not technically savvy enough to know exactly what it is that causes the problem in various cases, nor am I able, at this end, to change the format so that things go out as originally intended--so I can't give specific recommendations on what to do to avoid these problems. (Any of our more technically knowledgeable types should feel free to chime in here with specific suggestions.) All I know is that if it's not plain text, there are some folks who can't read it clearly. Thanks to everyone for your help on this. And please, if there are messages that come through that you can't read, let me know. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:09:01 -0700 From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: RE: [AML] Folk Etymology (was: _Savior of the World_) Ack! I knew I should have checked my facts before I related that little chestnut! - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 09:17:32 -0500 From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: [AML] Orgazmo Jeff Needle wrote: >There's a howlingly funny (and incredibly poor taste) adult cartoon comedy >here in the States called "South Park." Its creators put together this >spoof of Mormon missionaries for a full-length film. There have also been some Mormon moments on South Park itself. In an episode where fireworks have been declared illegal in Colorado, the South Park town fireworks display consists of a giant (twelve stories tall, if I recall correctly) snake (the kind that spews a tail of ash when you light it on fire). This snake goes out of control, wreaking fiery havoc throughout the nation, including a scene in Utah where missionaries are baptizing someone in a river with the strains of "The Spirit of God" playing in the background. The snake burns them all to a crisp. In a more recent episode, after Saddam Hussein causes a lot of trouble for Satan in hell, he's finally sent to heaven as punishment (he enjoys hell too much), and the only other people in heaven are Mormons (although they say that God is a Buddhist). Their primary heavenly activities consist of putting on pageants that depict the evils of tobacco, alcohol and other social ills. But I'm with Jeff. South Park is frequently tasteless, but it's also howlingly funny -- in fact, it's the most consistently funny TV show I've ever seen (it even beats the Simpsons in my book, which would have been unthinkable a few years ago). Barry Fagin wrote a good piece for Reason magazine about deciding whether to let his kids watch this show: http://www.reason.com/0005/fe.bf.goin.html The verdict: a few selected episodes, with parental supervision and post-show discussion. He ends with this statement: "If this is a moral sewer, it's one I'm proud to swim in." Me too. Eric D. Dixon "The two-holed button concealed its apprehension." -- Edward Gorey - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:01:04 -0700 From: "Scott Tarbet" Subject: [AML] What Is Art? (was: _Savior of the World_ ) I said: > > IMO an artist is anyone who sets out to make art. And Todd asked: > Does that make anyone who sets out to fix teeth a dentist? Overheard at the art supply store: "Ma'am, I've got to see your picture ID from the State Art Licensing Board before I can sell you that tube of cadmium yellow! You know it's a controlled substance!" ;-) Sure, there's good art and there's bad art, just as there are good artists and artists barely worthy of the name. But when a five year old feels the thrill of creation as she slaps paint around or raises her little voice in song or twirls across the living room, and wants to feel that thrill again, how is she not an artist? Art isn't in the training or the peer acceptance or the societal acceptance or even in the competency -- it's in the heart. - -- Scott Tarbet - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 17:20:41 +1100 From: Helena Chester Subject: Re: [AML] Orgazmo Helena Chester wrote: > Jeff Needle wrote: > > > There's a howlingly funny (and incredibly poor taste) adult cartoon comedy > > here in the States called "South Park." Its creators put together this > > spoof of Mormon missionaries for a full-length film. The idea is that a > > missionary is enticed into starring in a series of porn movies. Their > > depiction of Mormon life is spoofed relentlessly. > > > I love comedies that do realistically humourous takes on religous groups, as long as they are not obsene, so you have wet my appetite for this one. I enquired at the local video store and they can get Orgasmo in from another store for me to rent. Now the only thing I have to consider Jeff, is, is this something Dr. Laura would watch? On BYU-TV yesterday, Ann Edwards Connors was giving a very entertaining talk at a women's conference and she contrasted (negative correlation) herself to Dr Laura. Your opinions about Dr. Laura seem to be shared by both male and female LDS people. Helena - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:43:31 -0600 From: Todd Robert Petersen Subject: Re: [AML] What Is Art? Scott Tarbet: > Sure, there's good art and there's bad art, just as there are good artists > and artists barely worthy of the name. But at what point are they no longer worth the name? Is that in their heart as well or is it in their work or their dedication? I grant that there are bad artists and good ones, but I also believe that there are people who are not artists, just like there are people who are not dentists. I brush my teeth and floss and use mouthwash occasionally, but that does not make me a dentist. Likewise, someone might draw a picture here and there or write a poem or one-act or story or keep a journal, but that does not grant them the ability to rightfully call themselves artists. A five year-old slapping paint or singing is certainly expressing herself and it is, without a doubt a wonderful thing. She becomes an artist when she becomes consumed and defined by her desire to make, not when she simply wants to feel the sensation again. I think that point at which a person becomes an artist and not someone who simply makes art is when they find themselves working when they don't really feel like it. At this point it's no longer dabbling or playing or anything like that. The true artist, unlike the amateur (the lover of a thing) is someone who has dedicated a significant portion of their life to the pursuit of their art. It really has nothing to do with how good they are, though becoming better is a common side-effect of the dedication. > Art isn't in the training or the peer acceptance or the societal acceptance or even in the competency -- it's in > the heart. I'm not so sure this is true. If it were, I might then be able to say that I have the heart of a dentist so nevermind the fact that I did not go to dental school, that I am not a member of the ADA, that I never took the board exams, or that no other doctors will refer patients to me. Similarly, the crafts fairs that dot the United States are places where lots and lots of wonderful (and not so wonderful) things are displayed, but the juried ones have better stuff. Anyone who goes to those things with any regularity will tell you that. I guess I'm trying to say that Scott's definition of an artist opens things up so wide that it ceases to have any useful meaning as a distinction. If everyone can be an artist, then no one is, really. The fact that art is something a few people seek with any real depth or dedication gives it a particular distinction that is valuble. I believe that among the artisticly-inclined there are dabblers, hobbyists, die-hards, the dedicated, and the obsessed. Somewhere between the die-hard and the obsessed, the true artist lies. I am not willing to say that the artistic impluse doesn't exist in lots and lots of folks, young and old alike, but I would like to assert that there is an important difference between someone being called an "artist" and someone being called "artistic." - -- Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #217 ******************************