From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #226 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, January 8 2001 Volume 01 : Number 226 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 10:44:55 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic I don't know about telepathy. But what about witchcraft? I just read a very interesting book about witchcraft, written by a witch. = Hereditary Witchcraft: Secrets of the Old Religion, by one Raven Grimassi. = Learned a lot. But let me tell you about my two grandmothers. My father's mother was Norwegian. We called her Bestemor. When my father = was very young, he remembers an annual trip to the 'woman of the woods.' = His mother would take him to visit the 'woman of the woods' and she would = perform a very elaborate ceremony. She'd take bits of string and measure = him, all sorts of esoteric measurements, like he'd hold his arms out and = she'd measure from index finger to index finger, and she'd measure his = head, and then she'd measure stuff like the circumference of his tongue, = stuff like that, and she'd cut the string to the appropriate length. Then = she took all these bits of string and burn them, and stir the ashes, and = then she'd make a kind of tea from the ashes, and then she'd read their = fortune in the tea leaves. This was an annual ceremony, taking place = mid-summer. My grandmother insisted that he and his sister, my aunt, = follow this ceremony. Now, in Grimassi's book of witchcraft, I read about this particular = ceremony, the summer string ceremony. It's listed as a kind of Italian = witchcraft. The 'woman in the woods' was a witch. And my grandmother was = an active member of the Church, one of the few active members in her small = town in Norway. So my grandmother was a member of the Church, and a veil = worker, and a believer in witchcraft. =20 So was my maternal grandmother, and especially my maternal great-grandmothe= r. Both of them read tea leaves, and both of them used tarot cards, and = both of them practiced palmistry. And both were very active in the Church = and temple workers and active in Relief Society. My father to this day = believes in palm reading. And both my grandmothers believed in other bits = of folk magick. Like the idea that cats will suck out the life of a = newborn child; stuff like that. =20 We're all of us very very uncomfortable with the notion that Joseph Smith = practiced folk magick, and that Lucy Mack Smith had some odd beliefs = relating to these kinds of practices. But we don't have to go very far = back in our history to find practices that are very very similar to = witchcraft. Personally, I think it's all very very interesting. I = certainly have colleagues who believe in the healing power of crystals and = similar things. I have an aunt who is a stock holder in the Jubilee mine, = which is one amazing piece of Mormon folklore. I just don't know that = Mormonism is all that far removed from folk religions. We're pretty = buttoned-down nowadays, we Mormon types, pretty staid. And I like knowing = that we have that wonderful strain of loopiness in our culture. Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 10:48:28 -0700 From: Mike South Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Jonathan Langford wrote: =20 > I think that an individual person's experience (male or female) in Sunday > School classes and other Church settings is likely to depend highly on th= e > particulars of that ward, that meeting, that teacher, etc. I've been in > classes--I'm in one right now--where comments seem to be welcome from > pretty much everyone (though I've heard comments from some class members > who get fed up with people, presumably such as myself, "interrupting" the > lesson with their comments). I've been in other classes where my comment= s > tended to bring on a kind of glassy-eyed response from the teacher--not I > think because they were particularly controversial, but because she didn'= t > know quite how to deal with them, since they weren't part of where she wa= s > planning to go with the lesson. Right now I teach Elder's Quorum a couple of times a month and I really welcome (indeed prefer) having all kinds of comments from the group. I'm lucky because the group I teach seems perfectly willing to participate. (I spent the last four years teaching 14=AD15 year old kids in Sunday School, an= d it took quite a while for them to feel comfortable enough to comment at any length). I've been in too many classes where the teacher seems determined to get to the end of the lesson no matter what. Comments are often brushed aside so that the next point can be made. I usually end up not commenting in these classes because (as has been mentioned by others) it takes me a while to formulate what I want to say. By the time I work it out, the teacher has moved on. My preference is to lead more of a group discussion. The majority of us hav= e been going to our meetings long enough that we've covered the ground that most lessons teach several times over. Instead of covering the area from point A to point Z again, I'd rather spend time at point C or D digging and getting a little under the surface. So in my class we get comments, comment= s to those comments, and then a few more comments, jokes, and scripture references from the quorum members. More often than not, the group hits mos= t of the points the lesson brings up before I get there. But now those points are made much more interesting because they're illuminated by stories and experiences members of the group have actually had, not by a quote from a manual. Anyway, I rarely get through more than about a third of the lesson, but I think I'm learning much more from these discussions that I would from the same lesson on charity or obedience I've been hearing since I was six. - --Mike South - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 10:48:55 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Can we count movies? Robert Duvall's The Apostle. The Dreyer film Ordet. = And Babette's Feast. Plays? Ibsen's Brand and Peer Gynt. Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:11:25 -0700 From: Mike South Subject: Re: [AML] (On Stage) Transcendence in Film, Pt. 1 Eric R. Samuelsen wrote > For now, I'd like to exclude films about angels from my genre. Heck, I can > define a genre any way I want to, and I don't like films about angels. Angels > in films always seem like something of a copout, and a somewhat sentimental > copout to boot, like we're afraid of real transcendence, and so let's cute > things up with a be-winged John Travolta smoking and belching at us in > Michael. Look no further than the Disney kiddie sport film Angels in the > Outfield, for example. Or that maudlin TV series starring Michael Landon/Roma > Downey. 'Nuff said. Sorry, couldn't help jumping in here. I think one possible exception to your exception might be Wim Wender's "Wings of Desire". The angels there were far from the "let-me-show-you-how-things-really-are-and-then-you'll-be-changed- for-the-better" bunch you mentioned. I think it even fits into your transcendence category well, though it does stop short. I think it could be argued that it is (as I recall -- it's been a few years since I've seen it) about someone moving from their first estate to their second estate (though not in the traditional way). About learning how much joy can be found in this life in spite of the pain. I haven't seen "City of Angels" (the American re-make) but I heard it really doesn't hold up well to the original. The sequel "Far Away, So Close" tried to expand the story and introduce a theme of sacrifice and redemption, but I found it a little clunky by the end and it didn't hold my interest the same way the first film did. - --Mike South - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:50:28 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Irreantum E-mail Change The e-mail address for the AML's Irreantum magazine has now officially changed to irreantum2@cs.com. The old address, irreant@cs.com, has been closed. You can use this e-mail address for anything related to the magazine, including letters to the editor, manuscript submissions or queries, and subscription change of address. - -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT 84663. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:54:03 -0800 (PST) From: Darlene Young Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures > > Since moving back to > >Utah, there is no balance of thought in our > meetings. I miss that. I don't > >consider myself an intellectual, but I still feel > intellectually deprived. I've experienced the same thing since moving to Utah (and from Berkeley, too!), but I'm beginning to discover something . . . It's not that there are not articulate female thinkers in Utah. I think it has more to do with tradition in a ward and the way lessons are taught. I was asked to substitute teach Relief Society and I decided NOT to give the traditional (for this ward) all-preaching-no-questions lesson and instead came up with intriguing, interesting questions. The kind of questions that I want to answer in class. (I have been sleeping through the boring lessons so far. No questions asked, at least not any worth answering.) ANYWAY, surprise! There are intelligent, interesting women in this ward! I just never saw it because no one bothered to ask anything interesting and thus no one bothered to answer. I don't know how to change the problem since I am not a regular teacher. But it's enough to make me a little more daring about raising my hand and interrupting the more timid and boring teachers with a question about something that really MATTERS to me. Maybe if I do, more women will do so too, until we actually have discussions going regularly. ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 14:50:28 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures Isn't this off topic? I could go on about my teaching approach and = experience in the Church, but I don't know what it has to do with = AML-List. [MOD: Perhaps I'm simply tolerating this because it takes off on a post I originally made...but it seems to me that patterns of discourse within Mormon culture is one of those peripheral but related topics--like, for example, telepathy and magic--which, while not a central part of AML-List's subject of Mormon literature, nevertheless has a logical connection to it. Now is probably a good time, though, to encourage all of us to nudge the focus back toward patterns of discourse (and their effect on Mormon letters) rather than getting into the pros and cons of various styles of gospel teaching. It's certainly appropriate, though, to point out that those different styles exist, and speculate about the possibilities for Mormon fiction of exploring tensions between such different styles of discourse...] - -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 14:52:13 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Now that you mention films, _The Third Miracle_ with Ed Harris, released = not long ago, was a deep account of faith and religious experience. - -------- For a sample copy of IRREANTUM, a Mormon literary quarterly, send $4 to = the Association for Mormon Letters, 262 S. Main St., Springville, UT = 84663. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:01:27 -0700 From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: RE: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures > I was asked to substitute teach >Relief Society and I decided NOT to give the >traditional (for this ward) all-preaching-no-questions >lesson and instead came up with intriguing, >interesting questions. Good for you! The best Sunday School teacher I ever had always started the class by bringing up something highly controversial. We'd all argue about it in class, then rush home after meetings to examine our Scriptures to find out what was the truth (well, actually, to find support for our own positions). The point was that we rushed home to examine our Scriptures. . . . barbara hume - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:46:38 -0700 From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Religious Stories Then there was "Elmer Gantry." Roy >>> "Eric R. Samuelsen" 01/05/01 10:48AM >>> Can we count movies? Robert Duvall's The Apostle. The Dreyer film Ordet. And Babette's Feast. Plays? Ibsen's Brand and Peer Gynt. Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:09:31 -0800 (PST) From: plus two Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Characters Jonathan Langford wrote: "I recall, for example, Bakhtin's theory of the novel, which, as well as I can explain (or indeed understand) it, talks of the novel as a space inhabited by many different voices, mediated perhaps but not necessarily under the control of the writer--indeed, to the degree that all the voices of the novel are the writer's voice in disguise, I believe Bakhtin would label the story not truly a novel at all. In a sense, the story becomes the occasion of the conversation between characters, in the Bakhtinian definition." - ------ I would have to agree with Jonathan's rendering of Bakhtin's theory of the novel here. And as you might guess from what Jonathan wrote----Bakhtin has a rather narrow definition of what a 'true' novel is. Since very few authors are able to cede 'control' of the dialogue to their characters, there are very few true novelists. Dostoevsky, of course, is the prime example, and Bakthin obssesses over his work. Dickens is another author who manages this level of novel-ness. Looked at one way, Bakhtin's discussions of the novel don't offer a lot of hope for a great Mormon novel (by Mormon I mean simply one that features Mormon characters) written by a faithful Latter-day Saint author because (and some critics have already suggested this) the faithful Mormon writer won't be able to create that separation between him/her and the characters of his/her novel that is necessary to let a true, rich dialogue play out on the page---the author will be too invested in the project. And I kind of came to this conclusion after I first encountered Bakhtin's work---it feeds into that whole expatriate writer thing. The great authors critical of yet haunted by the beliefs/institutions they left behind. This is the whole spirit of the 'lost Generation' of Mormon authors-- Maureen Whipple, Virginia Sorensen etc. But then I got to go back to Bakhtin's prime example. I don't know that much about Dostoevsky, but I have read _The Brothers Karamazov_, and in that work I find that all the characters, heretical or faithful, are richly drawn, and beneath it all there is an affirmation of christian principles (and I'm sure that this conclusion too is up for debate). I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not sure that the expatriate writer could write a character like Alyosha---flawed, questioning, but full of faith and light. At the same time, Bakhtin's theory probably means that Mormon Characters can't be 'sheltered' for any reason from the demands of the novel. What I mean by 'sheltered' is what Jonathan and Terry have been hashing out: That if as a reader you (and I am) are looking for Mormon characters that are part of a vibrant novel ala Bakhtin's definition, then those characters need to be in a messy, open field (that is the novel) of dialogue rather than carefully placed into a narrative where every detail adds up to a symbolic whole (although, I like this kind of work also and think such works should be written and read). I don't know how well I've expressed myself (this is always a problem when Bakhtin gets introduced), so I'll try to end with a related point that might clarify things: Bakhtin believes that characters need to be open and engaged---they can not be static and closed-off. What I'm looking for are Mormon characters who are open and engaged, who participate in the central tensions of the gospel (for instance, the gap between the preached ideal and the lived real), who recognize are tempted by, perhaps even succumb to the evils of the world, but who maintain a hope in Christ and a trust in the plan of happiness. And I want to see these Mormon characters interact with (come into dialogue with) other richly drawn characters who don't share that same trust, but hurt, teach, befriend, repudiate, clash with the Mormon characters. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:39:53 EST From: Turk325@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Editorial: Micro-Politics and Power Structures In a message dated 1/5/01 2:35:52 PM, daryoung@yahoo.com writes: << I don't know how to change the problem since I am not a regular teacher. But it's enough to make me a little more daring about raising my hand and interrupting the more timid and boring teachers with a question about something that really MATTERS to me. Maybe if I do, more women will do so too, until we actually have discussions going regularly. >> Track down the Ward Teacher Trainer. (I don't know the official name. I'm the [whatever] in our ward, but I don't know the name of the calling.) Offer your insights. Tell him or her exactly what you've written here. Encourage him or her to develop the teacher training. It can be done. Kurt Weiland. [MOD: See my earlier comment on Chris Bigelow's query regarding this thread. I don't want to cut off this discussion, but we need to make sure the focus gets back to a more literary connection.] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:29:56 -0500 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Telepathy and Magic I have moments of deja vu quite frequently. I find it disturbing to all of a sudden realize I'm living in a piece of a dream. About witchcraft. Wow. Talk about a can of worms. But is it really any different than the Chinese/Oriental/Astronomical type of things participated in by segments of our society? I've given a little more than a cursory glance to some of these disciplines. They seem to have some basis in results. Yet, it seems to me we are counseled as members to not participate, at least in those things considered occult. Something about the power of Satan to interfere with those channels. (I'd have to look it up.) It also occurred to me that the Lord has asked us to seek him for answers and direction in our lives. If we're consulting the stars, boards, sunlight through windows and so forth, we probably aren't listening too closely to the Holy Ghost. Just my opinion. Wouldn't even begin to make judgements about what happened so long ago. The world was a different place. The church was a different place. (I don't recall any related question on a temple rec. interview. Am I just forgetting one?) Tracie Laulusa - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 17:51:59 -0700 From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Telepathy and Magic My mother says there was a woman in the Southern Utah town=20 where she grew up who everyone referred to as a witch. I'm not=20 sure exactly what she did to earn the title, but my mom went to her=20 once to have her cure a wart on my mom's hand. The witch told=20 her to rub it with a potato, then throw the potato over her shoulder=20 as far as she could, and not watch where it landed. The wart=20 disappeared within a few days. About 15 years ago, the illuminaries of western folklore (Anthon S.=20 Cannon, Jan H. Brunvand, Austin E. and Alta S. Fife, Hector Lee, and William A. Watson) compiled a book called Popular Beliefs and=20 Superstitions from Utah. It's 500+ pages of short entries like "If a=20 woman eats a boiled egg on her wedding day, she will have a baby=20 girl within a year," with the date and location the belief was collected.= =20 Superstition and folk magic were part of American culture until about=20 WWII, but have since mostly been replaced with a belief in science. MBA - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:08:08 -0700 From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Alan MITCHELL, _Angel of the Danube_ (Review) Ruth's review of my book is quite a compliment coming from a non-Mormon German professor. Also, by including my email address on the back cover, more comments are coming to me from non-members. All seem to "get" the book, and like readers everywhere, they all see it a little differently. Concerning Jerry Johnstone's review of Angel of the Danube in the DNews, in which he basically said it's a great book but nobody will buy it. Why? Not because it's racy, which it isn't, or predictable, which it isn't, but because it doesn't meet the IMAGE we have engraven (my metaphor). I hope for the sake of others writing missionary fiction that the genre is successful. The Missionary genre has two things to offer the reader: 1. a protagonist that really changes, and 2. a glimpse into another culture(s). I hope the editors reviewing Chris Bigalow's book will see the possibilites. Alan Mitchell - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #226 ******************************