From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #312 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, May 2 2001 Volume 01 : Number 312 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:45:38 -0400 From: "Neill, Gregory" Subject: RE: [AML] Church Problems in Lit I feel odd responding to this since it is my first post, but this thread really hits home for me at the moment... I just finished that Donna Hill biography over the weekend. It was one of the most faith-promoting things I have ever read--precisely because it doesn't gloss over potential controversies in the prophets life. By showing just how human he was (which is something he often admitted himself), the book left me with an even stronger belief that Joseph Smith was divinely inspired. For me, the works that gloss over or appear to hide controversy are more faith-damaging than a work like _Joseph Smith: The First Mormon_. When you have an honest question or concern, the last thing you want to hear is: "I know the Church is true ...." Perhaps if there have been times you have had doubts, even if they were not serious ones, you could share those feelings and how you overcame them with your friend. For me, these sorts of struggles are an integral part of my testimony. I visited an Episcopalian church with a friend of mine yesterday. The talk (I suppose they call them sermons!) was very good and seems applicable here. The priest made the statement that often the greatest gift we have to give others is our brokenness. By this he said he meant the things we learn from painful wounds that we receive in life. He said we should embrace those experiences, realizing that often the gift we receive from enduring through these experiences is really inseparable from the painful experience itself. Heavenly Father is present in the story of Joseph Smith, and the history of the Church. But He is just as present in the stories of our lives. Told in the spirit of honesty and openness, these personal stories and testimonies can be just as powerful for affecting change or leading folks to the Gospel as missionary discussions or Church publications. Sometimes more so. But as Alma said, you do have to at least have the desire to believe. So as others have said, if this is just a case of looking for a reason to leave then you probably will not be able to change things. Good luck! - -Greg Neill - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:54:10 -0600 From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit This will probably be a very "sideways" response to Margaret's question, but I think it has some validity. During the years of my first marriage, I met just about every variety of Mormon discontent in the world. I used to say I met every kind of apostate there is :). They all came to visit our house :). During that time, I noticed that most of them were dicontented because of other root causes in their lives. I took to saying, "And what is the main thing that bothers you about. . . ." whatever their rant was at the moment. It took few questions (albeit open-hearted and kindly intended questions) to arrive at some basic anger or pain unrelated to the doctrine at all! And if the individual were not ready and willing to get to some of the core issues, I think it became apparent to me as a listener that there was something more going on than doctrinal discontent. In just about every case, the conversation turned to other, more basic, intense issues. During those discussions, I mostly listened rather than defended . . .after all, there's no defending doctrine (nor history for that matter), when you get right down to it. It just is, and you live around it and with it and through it :). . . . . Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 1400 West 2060 North Helper UT 84526 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:25:08 -0600 From: Boyd Petersen Subject: [AML] Church Problems in Lit on 4/30/2001 12:07 PM, Margaret Young at margaret_young@byu.edu wrote: >Have you found LITERATURE for or against Joseph Smith to be valuable, or >merely a continuation of a long, maybe endless dialogue? Has anyone been >HELPED by an explanation someone has of a Church problem? One of the books that has always helped me when encountering dissonance has been Eugene England's _Dialogues with Myself_ (especially the essay "letter to a college student") and _Why the Church is as True as the Gospel_. Like Margaret, I've found debates about specific points of doctrine or history often generate more questions than answers, and eventually one has to take religious claims on faith. England's books have offered me great hope that answers are available to the questions if I search, but, more importantly, that faith can be just as rigorous approach to a question as reason. - --Boyd - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:25:59 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] AML Contest Deadlines Approaching Just a reminder about two contests sponsored by the AML: Irreantum Fiction Contest The Association for Mormon Letters is pleased to announce the first annual Irreantum fiction contest. Because Irreantum is a literary quarterly dedicated to exploring Mormon culture, all contest entries must relate to the Mormon experience in some way, either explicitly or implicitly. As long as an entry doesn't exceed 8,500 words, any fictional form will be considered, including short stories and excerpts from novels, screenplays, and play scripts. Any fictional genre is welcome, including literary, mystery, romance, science fiction, fantasy, historical, and horror. The first-place author will be awarded $100, second place $75, and third place $50 (unless the judge determines entries are not of sufficient quality to merit awards). Winners agree to give Irreantum first publication rights. To facilitate blind judging, entries should be submitted with a removable cover sheet that includes the author's name, address, telephone number, e-mail address, and manuscript title-the author's name should appear on no other page of the manuscript. Stories should be double spaced in easily readable type. Entries will not be returned. Submit manuscripts by May 30, 2001, to Irreantum's fiction editor, Tory Anderson, P.O. Box 445, Levan, UT 84639. Unpublished Novel Contest If your novel manuscript is ready, you could win the $1,000 Marilyn Brown Unpublished Novel Award, which is administered by the Association for Mormon Letters. Manuscripts must be postmarked by July 1, 2001, and mailed to: Marilyn Brown Novel Award, 125 Hobble Creek Canyon, Springville, UT 84663. Please submit manuscripts copied on both sides of the paper and bound with a comb binding. To facilitate blind judging, put no author identification on the manuscript and include a sealed envelope containing your name, address, phone number, and manuscript title. Include a self-addressed envelope for notification of contest results, and provide sufficient postage if you want your manuscript returned. The contest, which takes place every other year, was won last time by Jack Harrell, whose winning novel manuscript is under contract with Signature Books. Honorable mentions went to Dorothy Peterson, Laura Card, and Alan R. Mitchell, whose novel manuscript has been published by Cedar Fort as Angel of the Danube. Chris Bigelow - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:40:20 -0700 From: "Stephen Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Favorite Moments in LDS Lit. I wanted to do a more thorough answer to Steve's question, but am really pressed for time. I'll give just one answer, though I have many more. I would re-read the scene from the Homecoming series by Orson Scott Card where Zdorab decides to marry a woman for the sake of having posterity despite his homosexuality. It seemed vaguely familiar. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:08:51 -0700 (PDT) From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit - --- harlowclark@juno.com wrote: > And telling stories. Stories make people human, > rather than philosophical > arguments. The problem with arguments about chickens > and crossing the > plains is that they invite counterarguments, that, > yes, the chickens did > cross the plains to get to the other side, but the > real reason, the > archetypal reason, the reason the Great Coopmaster > drove them across the > plains before the railroad came, was to test them > and put them through an > ordeal. The Morrises have never been much for ordeals and so waited until the railroad was finished, waited until that golden spike was driven, before they converted (London) and came across the plains on the train. Of course then we atoned for our tardiness by living in places like Logan and Kanab. But Harlow is right about stories. I got some wild ones in my family tree and that has led to all manner of variations among us descendents. And it is these stories that in part keep me in the church. I see/hear about folks triumphing in spite of the failures of their parents. I see/hear about folks drifting off to one road or the other (from the John Birch Society to Manti splinter groups to Affirmation). I see the weaknesses and strengths, trials and triumphs of those who stay and those who leave and I am constantly reminded that peace doesn't come through what one knows or claims to know, but how one chooses to love and forgive and try to live up to covenants made. Yes, I get caught up in the maelstrom now and again---all these questions, all this strange history. And yet I can't shake the feeling that the test always is to be obedient despite one's historical moment, despite the weaknesses of those around us. Would I be more comfortable with the doctrine and decisions of the brethren if it fit perfectly into my world view? Of course. Do I look nostalgically at the past and yearn for the dynamic, revolutionary days? Sometimes. One of the most important things my mission taught me is that the Lord has to use the people that are here in the context of the society that they're in, and the opening up of attitudes, the discarding of prejudices takes a long time---probably generations. And I don't understand it, but sometimes the most interesting, sensitive, intelligent people don't make the best pioneers. This is something that will (I hope) haunt my writing in the future. The kind of people that I attracted in Romania were so smart and cosmopolitan--were exactly the kind of people the church needs everywhere, and especially there--but very few of them had the stomach for pioneering. Several knew the Book of Mormon was true, but couldn't commit to joining the community of saints. A few joined but didn't stay. And as always those who stayed surprised me. It was a humbling experience to realize that I can't judge as well as I thought I could who makes a 'good Mormon.' And so I rehearse the stories of the people I met in Romania often, realizing that their stories have changed in the meantime, but trying to learn from their brief narratives. The common thread being that when each of them glimpsed the ideal, the pure knowledge of our religion, they burned with understanding. How that then translates into action is the mystery I'm trying to explore, but I know it's there and I know they saw it. What this is leading to is Margaret's question about the various Joseph Smith accounts of the first vision. I agree with the other posters---trying to use the historians explanations isn't going to work, especially not if your friend is looking for reasons to leave. But what might be a good thing to share (and this is something that it seems like from your post you are already doing) is your stories and the stories of others she might respect. Stories about how you resolve issues, why you stay, and your story of Joseph Smith and why that story is important to you. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:29:58 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] AML Treasurer Needed The AML is currently in need of a treasurer. Following is a job description. If you are interested, please contact Chris Bigelow at chris.bigelow@unicitynetwork.com (I will forward candidates to the AML Board for a final decision). TREASURER Manage the AML checkbook, including reconciling monthly banking statements, paying bills, reimbursing AML staffers for expenses, and keeping signature cards up to date with current president, mail clerk, and treasurer. Submit sales tax refund requests. Train the mail clerk/bookkeeping assistant as to which software program and format to input financial transactions into for treasurer's analysis and use. Perform accounting duties, such as tracking expenses and income in useful categories and forecasting the AML's obligations. Handle any legal, government, nonprofit status, or taxation issues that arise, including audits, annual reports, and other paperwork. This includes supplying financial data needed for such initiatives as grant applications. Provide financial reports to the board, at the minimum a yearly financial statement but also perhaps quarterly reports on the AML's financial status and other info as needed on demand (such as current checking account balance). Supervise the registration tables at all live AML events. As needed, coordinate and train volunteers to man the tables. Afterward, turn over all info needed for the mail clerk/bookkeeping asst. to update financial ledgers and mailing lists. Chris Bigelow - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:09:46 -0600 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Bravo! I say welcome back, Renato Rigo. And I was thrilled to find somebo= dy from Brasil on this list! Is it true? Can this really happen? Marilyn Bro= wn - ----- Original Message ----- From: renatorigo > I Think these things don=B4t mind.... The important things are: When you become a member of the Church , your family gets better, your life gets better, your professional success increases, you get happier. When you abandon the church your life transforms into a big confusion,.. Word of a member that abandoned the Church for some reasons (the same you told) and came back to It again... Renato Rigo S=E3o Paulo Brasil renatorigo@bol.com.br - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:14:10 -0600 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Dutcher to Film Joseph Smith Movie in Palmyra: Rochester NY WHEC TV10 Why is everyone always worried if "its' for profit?" This isn't communism, is it? If someone performs a great service, shouldn't they be rewarded for it? Then they can turn around and hire people, give them something to do that's meaningful, and make the world go around. Marilyn Brown - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 10:23:57 -0600 From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] LA Book Festival This past weekend was remarkable. My co-author and I were invited to participate in the HUGE book festival at UCLA. We were invited by a bookstore which is not affiliated with the Church. My understanding of how most people view Mormons (outside of Utah)--specifically in regards to race--was magnified beyond any comfort zone at that festival. Darius and I hadn't realized that our signing wasn't just a two-hour thing, but basically all the time we could give over two days--Saturday and Sunday. There were several other authors with us in our booth (and hundreds of authors--many of them very famous--elsewhere at the festival). One of the authors who shared our booth, a gorgeous black woman, looked at our book (about Black Mormon pioneers) and said, "I thought Mormons viewed Blacks as one step above a monkey." Darius was able to joke with her (and very soon they were great friends), but he whispered to me, "I love the support I get from my community." The insight hit me hard--of what a BLACK person must go through to be a member of a church which has had restrictive racial policies. I had heard it from some BYU students--that other non-Mormon blacks view them as "Uncle Toms," but the festival was to open my eyes much further. There were over 100,000 people at the festival both days. As they approached us and looked at the book, they said things like, "Mormons and blacks--that's an oxymoron!" "I thought Mormons didn't even let Blacks join their Church!" "I thought Mormons didn't let Blacks into Utah!" "Mormons! They're racists!" As I cite these quotes, you need to understand that they are exact quotes, and were repeated time and time again. I would say that 90% of the people who talked with us (and there were many) started the conversation with a comment about Mormons as racists. It was a rather rude awakening to me. I realized that whenever we've talked about the book or the issues behind it, we've done so to a Mormon crowd--a crowd which understands the context. Often, our audience has included Black converts who are so thrilled to get their side of the story in Mormon history. But this was not a Mormon crowd, and I saw something I haven't seen before--and something I doubt many of us see because we're not front and center talking about Mormons and Blacks. Darius and I were there with a specific issue, which is not the issue most Mormon speakers address. At the end of the two days, I was feeling almost desperate to get on a national stage and talk about who we Mormons are, what our history is regarding race (even owning up to aspects of it which we'd be more comfortable covering up), and really talking. I wanted Oprah to drop by. (Didn't happen.) We actually sold quite a few books, and the bookstore wants us back there next year after Volume 2 is out. I want to go even better prepared, with a full sense of how we are perceived, and with better tools for teaching AND understanding. By the way, several of the folks we met at the festival (non-Mormon) also came to the fireside we did on Sunday night. The fireside was packed, and we may have made the stake president a little nervous by being as frank as we were about race and Mormonism. As it happened, I had phoned home Sunday afternoon to be sure my family was still intact. My husband reported that our son's Sunday school class had had a q/a period--taught by a really wonderful guy, a recent law school graduate and former member of our bishopric. The "blacks and the priesthood" issue had come up, and this great YOUNG man (in his twenties) explained that Blacks were denied the priesthood until 1978 because of the curse of Cain. My son spoke up and calmly said that that wasn't true. The teacher then went on to explanation #2: That Blacks had done something bad in the pre-existence. My son didn't let that one go by either. Bruce (my husband) suggested that our stake maybe needs a Genesis fireside. We've got the old traditions still swimming around us and nobody has ever really stood up and said, "The following beliefs are FALSE..." At the end of the day, besides being exhausted, I was feeling the urgency to speak to more audiences and with greater boldness. The issue is NOT going to go away. It would be nice is we could simply say, "The statement of 1978 continues to speak for itself" and magically make the folklore MANY MORMONS STILL CARRY about Blacks disappear, but I promise that is NOT happening. The folklore is definitely still with us, and we are definitely still perceived as a racist Church. Blacks who join us do so at risk of losing friendships and family--and so you'd better believe that they have testimonies when they join. We must serve them better. We must realize who they are and the tremendous strength they bring with them. We must be willing to fully receive them and welcome their gifts. The Freedman Bank Project was a tremendous bridge--but its presence will not magically heal the false traditions we are still passing down to our children, nor will it magically heal the perceptions non-Mormons have of us. We have miles to go before we can even thing of sleeping. [Margaret Young] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:05:47 -0600 From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Margaret Young wrote: >Serious question in this vein: One of my good friends is struggling with the >fact that Joseph Smith gave different versions of the First Vision. Since my >first husband was deeply into anti-Mormonism, I am very familiar with all of >that--and much, much more. I have been hesitant to enter into debate with >her. I think this is the toughest situation for a converted Mormon to deal with. We believe in the fact of the event and the reality of the things that followed--or at least we very much want to. Some of us are bothered by the differing accounts, and some of us are skeptical enough of all recorded history to put those differences down to ordinary human fallibility and the inevitable changes of perception over time. Which is where I come down on a lot of this stuff. Frankly, I doubt some of the details of all of Joseph's accounts, so the fact that some of those details change from telling to telling has never bothered me. Every memory comes in a context, and as we learn more we tend to recast old memories in light of new knowledge. The human brain is very capable of reprogramming itself to alter long-held memories so that they match the new contexts we create for them. Certainly the contexts that Joseph had for remembering events changed over the course of his life as he learned more and more about the true nature of God and his plan. As adults, how often have we convinced ourselves that moments of childhood joy were really illusory? Especially after we've learned that our parents may have had marital problems? I know that at eight years old I thought my parents were devoted to each other and that's when I formed many of my beliefs about how a husband should treat his wife. My father demanded that I respect and honor my mother, and I took that as a true statement of how the world should work. But years later when I discovered that he had been unfaithful to her when I was eight (now I understand why my grandfather baptized me, not my dad...), that knowledge forced me to rethink what I remembered as an eight year-old (and ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, and twenty-one year-old). Now the wise words my father spoke about honoring my mother were revealed as the hypocritical lies of a man trying to convince himself that he hadn't dishonored his own wife, and/or of a man trying to repent of his own sin by brainwashing his child with ideas that his own actions clearly didn't support. Therefore, though I can't specifically remember it, there must have been unbearable tension in my home that led to a host of little cruelties that I'm sure must have happened. So my childhood must really have been a miserable limp from day to day in a house devoid of real love or respect, and any joy that I remember must surely have been manufactured by my own fevered brain. Bunk. We're so ready to accept that our best beliefs were somehow false, and are gladly willing to reprogram our own memories to correct that error. Yet we are more skeptical when told that some remembered wrong never actually happened--or at least not the way we've come to remember that it has. Which was at least part of the basis of discussion about Martha Beck's book, and which I think applies here with equal relevance. I'm fortunate in that I've always doubted the details of any story told by anyone. Consciously or otherwise, I believe we tend to alter the details--and even the contexts and meanings--of our own memories to make them more directly address the issue we're trying to support with that memory. Every story comes in a context, and I believe people honestly tell their stories as truly as they can--within that context and setting and current set of accepted beliefs. And I believe that all those things, and thus the context in which the memory comes, can change from day to day and year to year. We seek the stories that confirm our beliefs. That's human nature--we want to believe that our current conclusions are right, otherwise we have to admit to being wrong, aka stupid or duped. When a faithful Mormon suddenly changes a long-stated positive belief in order to reveal the "true" story of Mormonism's checkered past, other antis praise them for finally overcoming the brainwashing of their past (just as faithfuls praise the repentant for overcoming their own prior brainwashing). So... What can you do? I don't know. I've never tried to "recover" a friend who's begun to lose faith, because I believe that they will perceive such an effort as somewhat less than sincere, and that will close doors faster than any other thing I could do. But I have tried to talk to them about the issues they have. I have tried to tell the story of my own belief, including the thought process that led me to it--and the doubts or questions I had and how I've come to resolve them for myself. It's hard, but I think you can defuse some of the negative energy and bring the discussion into realm of individual belief and hope and idea. Conceding that some stories are probably not completely accurate as told can either fuel the fire or effectively douse it, depending on the person and the context. But in the end, you can only tell the story as you believe it, and remind your friends that your belief is as precious to you as theirs is to them. At that point, they may choose to reject the beliefs you hold dear. I have several friends who are adamantly opposed to the Church, but we've agreed not to debate that issue anymore. We often discuss individual events or books or experiences, but we don't debate ultimate truth anymore. The best I can do is try to be a good and honest person who is unafraid to say what I believe, and hope that eventually the anger that fuels their disbelief will fade, and that a long history of memories of one good Mormon friend will have some weight when they finally decide to rethink their reasons for believing as they do. Sorry for the long, rambling post. This is a difficult issue, and one that I don't think has any pat answers. Unfortunately, in trying to come up with something all I've done is flail at the issue with some stream of consciousness, unstructured philosophical flotsam that bubbled to the top of my brain as I thought about the question. In this case, I can only tell my own story. I'm fortunate in that I'm a mnemonic relativist and I doubt all memory, thus I come to my own conclusions for my own reasons, and use other people's stories as illustrative, not authoritative. In the end, nothing can be absolutely proven--even the historians have to take the widely differing stories on faith and choose which ones they accept as more and less authoritative. Which is why I think you need to tell your own story your own way as often as opportunity permits--be that in the form of spoken testimony, essay, or fiction. In the telling, you discover your own conclusions again and rethink your belief in a modern context. If that story changes over time, so what? Faith evolves, as do beliefs. Are there parts of each telling that remain the same? These are the core truths that have been unshaken by time and context. And while it's possible that the only one who will be touched by your testament is yourself, I believe oneself to be a worthy audience as well. >As of now, I have mostly >expressed my love for her and not entered into the fray. I believe the >Spirit is the answer, and many questions become pretty irrelevant when one is >firmly grounded in faith (which is not an oxymoron). At the same time, don't be afraid to speak the truth about what you believe. The Spirit has many means of influence, and I think personal expression is one of the most powerful. The hard part is to deliver that expression without the (often inevitable) "therefore I think you're goofy and need to fix your broken belief." I suppose that idea is implied in any disagreement, but saying it out loud is almost never productive. But you know that. Your work has proven that time and again. >Have you found LITERATURE for or >against Joseph Smith to be valuable, or merely a continuation of a long, >maybe endless dialogue? Has anyone been HELPED by an explanation someone has >of a Church problem? Depends on who, when, and in what context. I think every testimony can have value, but you never know which one will have power. Books or stories that I have found to be intolerably trivial have had deep and powerful impacts on friends of mine. My father found clear articulation of his own doubts in what I consider to be a cheesy Mormon novel that was lent to him by a friend. The book didn't directly convince him to change his beliefs--he found the arguments to be as trivial as I did--but the fact that a faithful Mormon had admitted to the real power of those doubts gave him a few more weeks of thought time in which to consider his own beliefs and the reasons for them. And those few weeks may have been the difference between coming and going. It's one of the many reasons that I defend all Mormon literature--even the stuff I find unbearably trite, or the stuff I find smug, or the stuff I find hopeless. You never know which presentation might trigger a person to think a new thought, so you dare not stamp out any of the forms. Heaven knows, some of the literature that has had the most powerful impact on my own thought is stuff that I have so violently disagreed with that it pushed my mind down paths completely unimagined by the author, and led me to beliefs directly opposed to the author's. So, yeah. I have a personal experience with Mormon literature helping to reclaim someone close to me. Not because the trite story itself had power, but because it was one of several influences that helped open a line of reasoning in that person's mind that led to more important discoveries. Not specifically about Joseph Smith, but definitely about overall testimony--of which Joseph Smith is an inevitable component. >(And be careful on this one. Darius and I did a >fireside recently wherein an older sister announced that a black man had >explained to her that blacks hadn't EARNED the priesthood before 1978. She >believed it. It's a frightening thing when someone gets satisfaction and >comfort in believing a lie.) We all find comfort in lies at one time or another. It's why we should never stop telling the truth as we understand it--so that those well-meaning lies can be replaced with more substantive truths, or portions of truth. If the lie stands alone, it takes little effort to destroy that weak foundation. If the lie is surrounded by truth, its impact is reduced until it has no meaningful effect on the foundation, and attacking it will not topple the faith that rode (briefly) upon it. Scott Parkin - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 13:24:26 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit Cathy Wilson wrote: > > This will probably be a very "sideways" response to Margaret's question, but > I think it has some validity. During the years of my first marriage, I met > just about every variety of Mormon discontent in the world. I used to say I > met every kind of apostate there is :). They all came to visit our house > :). During that time, I noticed that most of them were dicontented because > of other root causes in their lives. I took to saying, "And what is the > main thing that bothers you about. . . ." whatever their rant was at the > moment. It took few questions (albeit open-hearted and kindly intended > questions) to arrive at some basic anger or pain unrelated to the doctrine > at all! And if the individual were not ready and willing to get to some of > the core issues, I think it became apparent to me as a listener that there > was something more going on than doctrinal discontent. In just about every > case, the conversation turned to other, more basic, intense issues. I'm glad you said, "In just about every case," because I can't believe that it's true in every case that people leaving the Church always do so for hidden reasons. Just as I don't personally believe the creed of the Church of Scientology, for instance, because it just doesn't seem right to me, I can believe that people can come to not believe the doctrine of the LDS church, and have that unbelief be entirely unrelated to any personal issues. In fact, I know it can, because I know several ex-Mormons who tell me that they are in a place in their lives where they just no longer believe. Another reason I can't believe it is because of what such a belief says about those who aren't of our faith or are and have fallen away. To me, it seems to say that there must be something wrong with you as a person if you don't believe or no longer believe. I know there are people who've left the church who were offended by a Bishop, or felt constricted by the teachings of Boyd K. Packer, etc. But I also know people who've left who, while sitting in Sunday School, had the same reaction that I do when I listen to Pat Robertson: "What nonsense." They just flat out don't believe the doctrine anymore. Thom - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:41:42 +1000 From: Helena Chester Subject: Re: [AML] Church Problems in Lit This is a brilliant response! I am honoured to be part of such a deep thinking group. Helena Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: [snip of entire post] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:26:25 -0600 From: "Peter Chamberlain" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Dutcher to Film Joseph Smith Movie in Palmyra: Rochester NY WHEC TV10 I find it very interesting that this missionary only feels that making = money from a movie is "evil". I wonder if he feels the same way about The = Work and the Glory or all of the music, videos, plays and "art" that is = produced by church members. I wonder if he ascribes more acceptable = motives (faith promotion) to everyone except Dutcher. Peter Chamberlain >>> wwbrown@burgoyne.com 05/01/01 06:14AM >>> Why is everyone always worried if "its' for profit?" This isn't communism, is it? If someone performs a great service, shouldn't they be rewarded for it? Then they can turn around and hire people, give them something to do that's meaningful, and make the world go around. Marilyn Brown - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:14:26 -0600 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: [AML] First Vision Accounts (was: Church Problems in Lit) On Tue, 1 May 2001 12:05:47 -0600, Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: >Which is where I come down on a lot of this stuff. Frankly, I doubt=20 >some of the details of all of Joseph's accounts, so the fact that=20 >some of those details change from telling to telling has never=20 >bothered me. Every memory comes in a context, and as we learn more we=20 >tend to recast old memories in light of new knowledge. The human=20 >brain is very capable of reprogramming itself to alter long-held=20 >memories so that they match the new contexts we create for them.=20 >Certainly the contexts that Joseph had for remembering events changed=20 >over the course of his life as he learned more and more about the=20 >true nature of God and his plan. I haven't done any in-depth analysis of the (was it three?) different accounts offered by Joseph Smith of the first vision, but it seems to me that as people who write we might have a unique perspective on his = accounts. The first vision was a pretty significant, and lengthy, event--one that contained a good number of things that have never been recorded. Joseph Smith never said about any of the accounts that they contain the *entire* events of the first vision. It's kind of like the people who say that = the Bible is false because the only children of Adam and Eve mentioned in Genesis are males (and therefore couldn't have populated the Earth). As writers, we should be aware that the entire event would have been = impossible to recount (even if it ended with what *has* been related) and as = students of the Book of Mormon, we should recognize that there are many things = that just aren't recorded, often by God's direct command. Another thing that writers should be attuned to regarding the differing accounts is that it is often necessary to tailor your accounts to the audience and circumstances of the telling. I'm pretty sure that the circumstances and audience for each retelling was different in = significant ways. Obviously, Joseph will emphasis certain things depending on who he= is writing to and recount those events that are germane to the point he is making. I would reserve the "faltering memory" argument only in instances of = direct contradiction. Anything else is explainable in audience selection and an event that was likely much broader than has ever been recorded. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #312 ******************************