From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #330 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, May 21 2001 Volume 01 : Number 330 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:37:12 EDT From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed In a message dated 5/18/01 4:12:42 PM Central Daylight Time, ThomDuncan@prodigy.net writes: << I am one of those (apparently, in the Church) rare individuals who gets no motivation from the lives of perfect people. OTOH, when I am made aware of their faults, their problems, their pain, and how they overcome that, them I am motivated. >> Now I know why I missed AML so much. It was Thom speaking so much for me. Violet Kimball - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:16:43 -0600 From: Eileen Stringer Subject: Re: [AML] Roy CLARK, _Keeping Up Appearances_ >Bruce - Bruce is Violet's husband. He's got a penchant for wearing women's >clothing. He's a turf accountant, which I think is British for grass-seed >salesmen or something like that. Actually it is British for "bookmaker" as in one who determines odds and receives and pays off bets. Eileen Stringer eileens99@bigplanet.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] Roy CLARK, _Keeping Up Appearances_ Maybe I'm giving too much away but I have an aunt and uncle (faithful LDS; he's a patriarch and she's the stake music director) who are frighteningly similar to Hyacinth and Richard. He discovered "Keeping Up Appearances" and now occasionally refers to my aunt as "Hyacinth". Three cheers for the British comedies on KUED-TV. Seems unlikely they would ever be shown on KBYU... R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com - --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:29:55 -0700 (PDT) From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Casting Dispersions (was: Marilyn BROWN, _Wine-Dark Sea of Grass_) - --- Jeff Needle wrote: > > > "What Has All the Fuss Been About?" > > > >I can't remember the first time I heard about the > Mountain Meadows > >Massacre. But ever since that day, it was always in > the context of a > >shameful act that cast dispersions upon the Church. > It's a favorite of > >anti-Mormon writers and speakers. An uncomfortable > hush seems to fall > >upon any group of Mormons whenever its > hyper-alliterative name is > >mentioned. > > > It is only because I'm very tired and a little giddy > that I ask what the > phrase "cast dispersions" means. Well, I'm no linguist but according to the OED, to cast is to "plaster or daub," and a disperion is a "type of intimate mixture in which one substance is present in a large number of separate small regions distributed throughout another, continuous, substance; examples are emulsions (one liquid in another) and AEROSOLS (a solid or a liquid in a gas). [bold mine]" So my guess is that it has something to do with 'tagging' or other forms of graffiti. I was not aware that the Anti-Mormon crowd had become so urban and hip in their smear tactics. What 'hood do most of them represent? Do they all have their own tagger sigs? [Anti-M, korihorjr, M=M (Mormon=Mason)] ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:28:35 -0500 From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Bestsellers: Behind the Smile Expands, Standing for Something Drops: Kent Larsen From: Kent Larsen To: Mormon News Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 23:30:00 -0500 Subject: MN Bestsellers: Behind the Smile Expands, Standing for Something Drops: Kent Larsen 17May01 A4 [From Mormon-News] Bestsellers: Behind the Smile Expands, Standing for Something Drops NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- While Marie Osmond's "Behind the Smile dropped off the Barnes & Noble 100, it joined four other lists, including Amazon.com's and the New York Times' Hardcover Non-fiction titles , as well as the Wall Street Journal's Nonfiction titles. Meanwhile, President Gordon B. Hinckley's Standing for Something dropped out of first place on the LDS bestseller list to number three, while the lower end of the list changed dramatically. In addition to Osmond's book, Stephen R. Covey's "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" also appeared back on a number of lists, showing an overall weakness on the lists. On the LDS Bestseller list, the most dramatic rise was "Mothers of the Prophets," which jumped from #8 to #2, probably on a surge in sales of the title for last week's Mother's day holiday. The current titles on US National bestseller lists are: Nothing Like it in the World, by Stephen Ambrose A history of the building of the transcontinental railroad in the US. Ambrose, a highly regarded historian, details the involvement of Mormons in building crucial portions of the road, including the driving of the "golden spike" in the heart of Mormon territory. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 25 28 Barnes & Noble (May 17) Top 100 17 34 New York Times (May 20) Non-Fiction Hardcover [Independents - 3] The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey This ten-year-old personal management classic is still selling strongly. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 89 - Amazon.com (May 17) Top 100 23 11 Amazon.com (May 17) Non-Fiction Paperback 62 69 Barnes & Noble Top (May 17) Top 100 13 - New York Times (May 20) Paperback Advice 148 120 USA Today (May 17) 4 4 Wall Street Journal (May 11) Business Behind the Smile: My Journey Out of Postpartum Depression, by Marie Osmond with Marcia Wilkie and Judith Moore Osmond's tale of how she survived and learned to deal with postpartum depression. Currently on the following bestseller lists: This Last List 13 - Amazon.com (May 17) Non-Fiction Hardcover 9 - New York Times (May 20) Non-Fiction Hardcover [Chains - 4] 121 88 USA Today (May 17) 11 - Wall Street Journal (May 11) Nonfiction Bestsellers in LDS Bookstores: This Last Title 1 2 The First 100 Temples by Chad S. Hawkins Deseret Book 2 8 Mothers of the Prophets (Revised Edition) by Leonard J. Arrington and Susan Arrington Madsen Deseret Book 3 1 Standing for Something: 10 Neglected Virtues That Will Heal Our Hearts and Homes by Gordon B. Hinckley Three Rivers Pr 4 3 Expressions of Faith by Greg Olsen Deseret Book 5 10 Arise and Shine Forth: Talks from the 2000 Women's Conference Deseret Book 6 6 Legacy of Love by Lucile Johnson and Joann Jolley Covenant Communications 7 7 Women of Destiny (CD) Deseret Book 8 5 Walking in the Light of the Lord by President Gordon B. Hinckley Deseret Book 9 12 The Possible Dream (BYU Women's Conference Talk on Cassette) by Smoot, Mary Ellen Deseret Book 10 4 The Promise of Discipleship by Neal A. Maxwell Deseret Book 11 - A Quiet Heart by Patricia T. Holland Deseret Book 12 - Hearts in Hiding by Betsy Brannon Green Deseret Book 13 - Arise and Shine Forth (CD) Deseret Book 14 10 The Message by Lance Richardson American Family Publishing/Origin Book Sales 15* 8 Latter-Day History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Edited by Brian Kelley and Petrea Kelley Covenant Communications 15* - The Kingdom and the Crown by Gerald N. Lund Shadow Mountain * Indicates tie LDS Books rankings reflect sales rankings at approximately 50 LDS bookstores, generally in the Western United States. Mormon News is actively seeking to expand both the quality of these rankings and the number of stores participating. Bookstores and other vendors of LDS books are urged to contact Mormon News at editor@mormonstoday.com to participate. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 21:28:27 -0600 From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: [AML] Barnes & Noble Writing Workshops [MOD: The following message was forwarded to us by Barbara Hume.] >Subject: [RWAalert] Writer’s Digest Books and Barns & Noble > >Harold asked me to post the following information. > >Claudia >RWAlink listowner > >Permission is granted to forward this to RWAlink chapters and members. >====================== > >On October 4, 2001, 7:00 PM, Writer’s Digest Books will be hosting the >second annual World’s Largest Writing Workshop at all Barnes & Noble >stores across the country. Last year, thousands of writers gathered at >over 500 stores to share their work, concerns, and their knowledge. > > We are currently looking for authors with books currently in print to >volunteer as workshop leaders in their local Barnes & Noble stores. >Taking part on this nationally publicized event gives you the chance to >sign and sell your books, promote your writing program or association, >and help start writing groups in your community. > > The general framework for the event is a talk, given by you, on your >writing area of expertise, a signing of your work, and then an open mike >for the attendees. Plenty of materials will be provided to the stores >for on-site, creative exercises. This framework may change from store to >store. > > If you are unable to lead a workshop, we do hope you will join us on >October 4th as a participant. > > For more information on leading a workshop, contact Mary Poggione at >Writer’s Digest Books, at 1-800-289-0963, ext. 272 or e-mail me at >wlww@fwpubs.com. Please include your name, e-mail, address, phone, your >books, the topic about which you would speak, and any other comments or >questions. Your personal information will only be used in connection >with this event and only with your permission. > > > > >Community email addresses: > Post message: RWAalert@onelist.com > Subscribe: RWAalert-subscribe@onelist.com > Unsubscribe: RWAalert-unsubscribe@onelist.com > List owner: RWAalert-owner@onelist.com > >Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/RWAalert > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 21:36:54 -0600 From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema >_The Graduate_ is, imo, an excellent example of how a disgusting story >(an older woman having a affair with a younger man, her daughter's >fiance) can be done with elegance and taste. Thom, would it be a disgusting story if it were about an older man having an affair with a young woman? Or would that be "perfectly normal"? barbara hume Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress TechVoice, Inc. barbara@techvoice.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:48:41 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) katie@aros.net wrote: > In an interview quoted in a paper posted > there, he even states that he doesn't try to be a great writer and use literary > techniques and so forth. He feels that this can get in the way of the story. > So he may be aware of more of this sort of thing than we give him credit for. Sorry, but that sounds like a cop out to me (and I am at your mercy assuming that you've passed on the intent of his quote correctly). Am I to honestly believe that all the great writers who developed literary techniques over the centuries were working hard to develop something that would make their stories worse? If Jack Weyland really believes what this quote attributes to him, then he doesn't understand literary techniques. How would you like to overhear your doctor say, "I just think those surgical techniques they taught me in medical school get in the way of the operation"? Those literary techniques are the tools of the trade. If Jack doesn't want to use the tools of the trade, why is he in the trade? Frankly, I consider that attitude to be an insult to all writers who struggle to master the tools of their trade. > Still, I think he could handle things like the backstories more carefully. If > anything, they would call less attention to themselves, thus making his stories > run more smoothly. Why doesn't this bother his editors? It's bugged me every > single time, including when I read his work as a youth and didn't know exactly > what about it bothered me. The man has talent and can tell a good story. I'd > really like to read something of his and thoroughly enjoy it, without being > able to pick out irritating passages where he takes literary shortcuts that, > unfortunately, look just like "something Jack Weyland would do." You are proving my point, Katie. I'm not asking Jack Weyland to stop being Jack Weyland. I'm asking him to be a better Jack Weyland with the more experience he gets. No one is impressed with somebody who does the same thing year after year and never improves. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 01:04:49 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed Thom Duncan wrote: > I am one of those (apparently, in the Church) rare individuals who gets > no motivation from the lives of perfect people. OTOH, when I am made > aware of their faults, their problems, their pain, and how they overcome > that, them I am motivated. Here here! I can admire a perfect person. I can't learn a great deal from him how to overcome my own weaknesses. How about if we remember that there has been only one perfect person, all recent assertions on this list to the contrary notwithstanding. Christ stands as a model of what the perfect person is like. It's good to have that model so we know what we are sriving for--we have an idea in what direction the final destination is. But when drug addicts want to escape their chains, who do they turn to? The near-perfect Mormon who does everything right, or the former addict who has successfully kicked the habit? When an alcoholic finally admits to himself he has a problem, where does he find the instructions and the motivation to overcome his disease? In the speeches of testimony meeting? Or the speeches of recovering alcoholics at an AA meeting? Do I find encouragement in the life of a Mormon who seems to have been born righteous, following every little bit of the Gospel like falling off a log? Or the member of the church who has struggled against temptation and succeeded, or failed, then recovered through repentance? The former I cannot duplicate, because I don't know how he's doing it. The latter's life is a textbook on how to do it, teaching by example. Frankly, I don't believe the former exists. I believe every "effortlessly" righteous life is a life with unseen tribulations that brought that person to that level of goodness. I think the argument we're having about this stems from people thinking that, because we want to see fallible characters in our fiction, we're celebrating the sinner. Not so. We're celebrating the struggle to overcome weakness and partake of the healing power of the atonement. Every human being but Jesus must deal with that struggle--it's universal. So why shouldn't it appear universally in our literature? - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:22:34 EDT From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: [AML] Female Writer Wanted FEMALE WRITER WANTED. We (Zion Films / Excel Entertainment) are looking for a female, returned missionary writer to do a spin off novelization of "God's Army". Please me call ASAP 344-8764. Thanks! Emily Pearson Managing Director Zion Films - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 01:19:21 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Dutcher Joseph Smith Project William Morris wrote: > I think that if I was making the film, I would leave > the first vision and the translation of the Book of > Mormon alone---I mean, they'd get referenced somehow > to set up the opening of the film, but I'd do the bulk > of the film from, say, Zion's camp to the martyrdom. > I just thing that that part of the story is too iconic > to deal with easily. I'm not saying that it's 'too > sacred' and shouldn't be portrayed for propriety's > sake or anything like that. Perhaps it's because I > think that that period of Joseph's life is too firmly > pre-conceived in people's minds. I'm just the opposite. I'd rather concentrate on the beginnings, the iconic stories, precisely because people have firmly preconceived notions about them. I'd like to make them less iconic and remind people that they were real events that really happened. Which probably means people would accuse me of treating them irreverently, because I didn't depict them "iconically." - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:06:55 -0700 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema Thom Duncan wrote of Kieth Merrill: >This is a man who said that the film "In and Out" is bad because it promotes the gay lifestyle. Nothing could be further from the truth.< Oh pleeeze! Anyone who doesn't recognize that Hollywood has a big time gay agenda is simply not paying attention. Check out "Victor Victoria", "My Best Friend's Wedding", "Big Daddy" or any of a dozen TV shows this past season with major gay characters. Plain and simple, they assault our values at every turn. That's precisely why we need people like Mitch Davis and Richard Dutcher. Gary Davis - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 11:34:05 -0600 From: LuAnnStaheli Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Apparently no one needs to! We can't keep a Weyland book on the shelves of our classrooms and libraries at the junior high. probably 3/4 of my girls read at least one Weyland book each term. Kids don't care about P.O.V. , styles, etc. They just want a good story. "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > Although it sounds > like Weyland has made some progress by the way you describe his handling > of bulemia, it's also apparent that he has made no progress in other > areas since those early short stories. Why has no one pulled him aside > and told him about point of view or the handling of exposition and > backstory yet? - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:33:56 -0600 From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] Apology Both Andrew Hall and Richard Cracroft have drawn my attention to my glaring error. I had not picked up on the fact that Richard was reviewing only novels in his _Meridian_ list,, not short story collections. The truth is, I read my e-mail extremely fast these days, because my main focus is trying to finish writing a huge book. I'm feeling really bad about my cursory understanding of what Richard's objective was, but even worse about my own rather arrogant and unappreciative tone. Richard is truly a gift to Mormon letters. He and Neal Lambert were the initiators, in my thinking, of contemporary Mormon literary criticism when they published _22 Mormon Writers_. He is one of the three most important Mormon critics today, I believe, and his list is really quite remarkable. Can you imagine one man knowing so many works of Mormon literature well enough to be able to compile such a list? (All right, Jeff Needle could probably do it too.) Anyway, I have become convinced that I'm rushing through the list's posts too fast to be able to give really thoughtful responses, and so will likely hold off until volume 2 of the trilogy is finished. [Margaret Young] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 13:51:51 -0700 From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Re: Public Domain >The Church sued the fellow who posted the Book of Mormon to the web under >a different title, Yes, I'm quite familiar with that whole brouhaha. He posted not an out-of-copyright edition, but rather a recent edition, one that incorporated all the headers written by BRM. The guy wasn't LDS -- in fact, knew little about the Church and had no interest whatsoever in it -- but republished the BOM under the title "The Bible II" or some such thing. He was quite provoked about being hit with the legal machine. The entire situation was amusing. - --lmg - --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. - --------- . - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 17:02:17 -0600 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed On Thu, 17 May 2001 16:34:34 -0700, Frank Maxwell wrote: >Later in the quarter, I was chatting after class with another girl, who >said there were lots of Mormon kids in her high school (in an affluent = San >Francisco Bay Area city). (In this regard, "lots" might equal only 10 = or >20 percent.) But she said that none of them were her friends. The = Mormon >kids were snobbish, she said, and just hung out with each other. I told >her I was sorry to hear that. I was saddened because the LDS kids who = had >a chance to make a positive impression apparently hadn't. And all I = could >do was damage control. But I knew what she was talking about, because = when >I myself had moved to that general area, I'd observed a similar >cliqueishness, or exclusivity, in the LDS young adults who were raised >there. I'd be a little careful about calling our youth cliquish. I'm not = doubting that it can happen, but from my experience, a High Schooler's = "standoffish" tends to equate with "doesn't go to our parties" and "isn't participating= in our activities". In my High School, the LDS members weren't considered standoffish. I was. The other LDS members went to the parties and participated in the "activities". They were friends with each other as = well as friends with others. But they weren't friends with me. Because I was "standoffish". Which is to say, I wouldn't drink alcohol. And I = wouldn't fool around. And I wouldn't sneak out after curfew (well, except for = prom night which turned out alright but probably shouldn't have). Many activities deemed appropriate by teen peers are directly counter to gospel standards. Not hanging out with people who drink alcohol can = equal, in many High Schools, not hanging out with non-members. Which strikes = many non-members as, well, holier-than-thou and too-good-for-you and cliquish = and any number of other adjectives designed to make sinning people feel = better about what they are doing. Personally, I'd just as soon have my children be considered cliquish than have them hanging out with certain types of other kids. Not that they should only hang out with Mormons, but they should certainly be hanging = out only with good kids with strong moral standards who won't pressure them = to drink, see bad movies, or engage in inappropriate physical relationships. Unfortunately, that standard could easily translate to "only hanging out with Mormons"--a circumstance I will not blame my children for. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 15:45:59 -0600 (MDT) From: katie@aros.net Subject: [AML] Jack WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ > > I was reading Katie Parker's review of _Ashley and Jen_ this morning > (5/15/01) and it occurred to me, what if Jack Weyland had included a > scene, because it's a bulimia novel, where Ashley purges after taking > the > sacrament? Imagine the reaction such a scene might get. (Hey, maybe > I'll > use that in my male anorexia novel.) > Actually there is a sacrament scene in _Ashley and Jen_(pp. 129-130): <<<<< They were singing the sacrament hymn, but she didn't sing. She didn't feel like singing because she didn't like the sound of her own voice. *I'm doing so good,* she thought. (refers to her not having eaten anything yet today) She closed her eyes for the sacrament prayer. (words of the blessing on the bread are quoted here) She said "amen" along with her roommates and then continued her train of thought. *What will I do after church? I'll be so hungry by then. And the girls will want me to eat with them...I could pretend like I was taking a nap, but they might wake me up when it was time to eat, but I could say I was too tired to eat then. That might do it. And then I could wait until everyone's gone and then I could drive out in the country and have the brownies I put in the trunk yesterday.* (she likes to binge and purge alone in the country so no one knows about it) *That's what I'll do.* She smiled. *I'm doing so good.* The bread came to her. She put a tiny piece in her mouth, but a short time later she brought a tissue to her nose with both hands and got rid of the bread into the tissue. *I'm doing so good,* she thought. >>>>> It's interesting that you bring this up. When I first read this, my reaction was more along the lines of "Poor girl. She's so messed up she doesn't even appreciate the sacrament anymore" rather than of being outraged at the possible meaning behind her gesture of spitting out the sacrament bread. It's obvious to me that she didn't mean it in a blasphemous way. It also never crossed my mind that Jack Weyland could be promoting this other meaning. I would be somewhat surprised to hear of anyone offended by this scene in the book; it seems obvious to me what the author's intent is. ('course, there's always someone...) But if it were made into a movie, that might be different. Again, they'd have to show at least part of the ordinance, and maybe that's what makes the difference for a lot of people. Also, they'd have to somehow show Ashley actually spitting the bread out, which would be a gruesome addition. Maybe it could be done more delicately, as Weyland did. But if they wanted to show it in a way that left no room for doubt as to what she did, an easy way would be to show her not chewing after she takes the bread, and then spitting into a trash can or something later on. It could give the whole scene a different feel. At any rate, without a voice- over to tell Ashley's thoughts during this time, the meaning of her actions would be less obvious. On the other hand, if this scene were taken in context with the rest of the show, you'd think it wouldn't be that hard to figure out... - --Katie Parker - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 16:10:35 -0600 (MDT) From: katie@aros.net Subject: Re: [AML] WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_ (Review) Quoting Thom Duncan : > > I'm currently reading Stephen King's _Dreamcatcher_. I'd say a third > of > it is backstory, but it's not done in such a way as to draw attention > to > itself. Of course, King has intentionally broken every known law in > fiction writing and still manages to sell books in the millions of > copies. I'm one of his devoted fans and will be until the Grim Reaper > snatches one of us from the planet. > > I've only read one Weyland book, and it was years ago, so I can't > comment on how well he does it. > And I haven't read any King, but here's one instance in _Ashley and Jen_ that bugged me (pp.54-55): <<<<< (Ashley and Jen are sitting in sacrament meeting keeping themselves entertained instead of listening to the talks.) Jen...turned the program over and made a list of boys their age in the ward, drew a column, put a heading on it, "Hot or Not?" The first name on the list was Nathan Billingsley. Ashley shook her head and wrote "Not." Nathan was their same age, the youngest child in a large family... He had been born long after all the other children, and it had been like he had grown up without any brothers and sisters. Nathan had gone through middle school and high school being made fun of by others. It wasn't totally his fault. His mother set him up for it. In seventh grade, she was told by a choir teacher that Nathan could sing better than any boy his age. Thinking he had the potential to be an opera singer, she poured her energies into helping him achieve her goal...(and the next page is a complete discourse on Nathan's life and how he ended up as such a geek. The bottom line is that once he sang soprano in high school choir and never heard the end of it.) >>>>> It's heavy-handed, and apparently not even told from Ashley's point of view. The scene where Nathan sang soprano is even shown, but there is no indication that Ashley was actually there when it happened (thus explaining her ability to tell us the scene), or precisely how much she knows or why she knows it. There is also more background concerning his mother, and more details about choir such as the fact that Nathan sat between two football players who bugged him, and so forth. There is no reason why Ashley would have known any of this or even cared about it. All she would know is that everyone thinks he's a geek, and maybe that he sings too much and sang soprano once in choir. That's all *we* need to know, is her perception of him and reasons why *she* feels that way. If, for some reason she is really aware of these details, how does she know them? Did Nathan confide in her? Was she friends with someone in choir? Did she overhear Nathan's mother talking to her mother and bragging about his wonderful singing abilities? These missing elements could provide more depth to the story and to her relationship with Nathan later on. Well, the short answer here is, this entire page was not told from Ashley's point of view. It was told from the narrator's. Somehow, the narrator knows what everyone is thinking, although usually he follows Ashley. Period. End of discussion. It's the easy way out. - --Katie Parker - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 06:48:07 -0600 From: Richard Cracroft Subject: Re: [AML] Cracroft's LDS Classics (Meridian) Thanks, Andrew, for stressing my caveats in making the list of novels. I was afraid that some of your readers would take issue with me for not listing some works for a general audience. And I was right. Richard Cracroft - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:32:21 From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Cinema > > >_The Graduate_ is, imo, an excellent example of how a disgusting story > >(an older woman having a affair with a younger man, her daughter's > >fiance) can be done with elegance and taste. > >Thom, would it be a disgusting story if it were about an older man having >an affair with a young woman? Or would that be "perfectly normal"? > >barbara hume In my opinion, what's disgusting about the story is not so much the age difference, but the fact that Mrs. Robinson is a married woman -- and the mother of the guy's girlfriend to boot. That's the creepy part. Would it be just as unsettling if it were an older man and a younger woman? If the man is polygamist Tom Green and the "woman" is a 13-year-old girl he plans to marry, then yes, it would be nasty. And if we're talking about movies, then anything involving hairy barnacle Sean Connery and a younger woman is automatically repulsive. Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:40:46 -0600 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed On Sat, 19 May 2001 01:04:49 -0600, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >> I am one of those (apparently, in the Church) rare individuals who = gets >> no motivation from the lives of perfect people. OTOH, when I am made >> aware of their faults, their problems, their pain, and how they = overcome >> that, them I am motivated. > >Here here! I can admire a perfect person. I can't learn a great deal >from him how to overcome my own weaknesses. Why not? Seems to me that someone who has attained some degree of perfection might be very useful in describing how they got there. It = isn't like they are born that way. They had to do it through effort and hard work. And since when is it a bad thing to learn from someone who has = done it? Isn't that what teaching is all about? I try to be around as many = good people as possible. Not because I dislike bad people or shun them, but because I can learn from good people how they overcame their bad = impulses. If they are willing to talk honestly about what they have done and how = they overcame adversity, I'd be more than willing to pay attention (or even cash). Though that probably points out why such people aren't great characters = in a book. It'd be more useful (interesting) to find out how people *become* perfect than to depict accurately how they *are* perfect. I take comfort that people exist who have solved the majority of the gospel problems. = I'm not in competition with them for limited space in heaven. Any help they = can offer, even just by example, is useful to me in my own eternal = progression. Jacob Proffitt *Note please that perfect in this post is a relative term and that nobody= is really perfect, just some people are closer than others :) - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:52:00 -0700 (PDT) From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Mormons as Flawed - --- "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > Do I find encouragement in the life of a Mormon who > seems to have been > born righteous, following every little bit of the > Gospel like falling > off a log? Or the member of the church who has > struggled against > temptation and succeeded, or failed, then recovered > through repentance? > The former I cannot duplicate, because I don't know > how he's doing it. > The latter's life is a textbook on how to do it, > teaching by example. > Frankly, I don't believe the former exists. I > believe every > "effortlessly" righteous life is a life with unseen > tribulations that > brought that person to that level of goodness. > > I think the argument we're having about this stems > from people thinking > that, because we want to see fallible characters in > our fiction, we're > celebrating the sinner. Not so. We're celebrating > the struggle to > overcome weakness and partake of the healing power > of the atonement. > Every human being but Jesus must deal with that > struggle--it's > universal. So why shouldn't it appear universally in > our literature? I agree with this line of reasoning and recognize that all of us are flawed and struggle with temptation and that that struggle makes for compelling literature, so I'm not sure I can further this specific discussion, but I do want to express a literary preference. As an aside: I remember as a teenager asking my parents about Mormon literature and my dad and mom quoting something that one of my dads' Spanish professors at BYU said, that is that Mormons will never produce a significant literature because they're not tortured enough, or because they lead prosaic lives, or because they 'know' all the answers, or something in that vein. Now my parents don't agree with this sentiment, but they used it to help me understand some of the obstacles Mormon writers face (in their opinion). So here's my preference: I want to read something that refutes this BYU prof's opinion in a specific way. Yes, I am captivated by and can enjoy the literature of 'backsliders.' I see a value in dealing with stories that break the Mormon stereotype, that deal with hard issues and grievous sins. But I would love to read a novel with a protaganist that is a pretty darn good and faithful Mormon, but struggles with some of the 'lesser' issues (it makes me nervous to try and classify sinnings since all sin can be repented from) like how to appropriately demonstrate rightous indignation. Or how to motivate others while still respecting free agency. Or how to balance learning and humility. How to fine tune a relatively rightous live. I want the flaws to be there, but to be in a minor key. I do think, however, that this kind of literature is incredibly difficult to write as compelling drama. One of the writers we often point to as an example for Mormon literature is Flannery O'Connor. I love her work, but at the same time, it often depends on putting characters in extreme (often violent)situations and through their responses to those situations to say something profound about grace and Catholicism. Good stuff, but I'm looking for much finer strokes, I think. My only thought on how to do this is to somehow copy the delicate, wound-up tension of a Henry James novel, but even those usually have a gross immoral act as the underlying cause of the exquisite tension found in his well-(over?)wrought scenes. Plus James with his dense sentence structure has a fairly limited readership. Anybody have examples of Mormon literature they think fit my preference? Anybody have this same preference and have some ideas about how to succesfully capture it? ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #330 ******************************