From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #345 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, June 4 2001 Volume 01 : Number 345 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 16:48:06 -0400 From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Symbolism and Emotional Honesty REWIGHT wrote: > And some teachers like to > find symbolism in everything. And most teachers don't get the opportunity > to speak to the the writer to find out if that's what was meant. Yet they > teach as if they do know. No, offense, but you must have had a run of terrible teachers. Last semester in my SciFi class, one of the books I wanted to teach never came from the publisher. So I was caught short and decided, "What the heck, I've got all these remaindered copies of Jaxon Files in boxes in my basement, let's use those." I approached the experiment with fear and trembling. It was going to be nice to be able to say with absolute certainty that this is exactly what the author (me) intended, but I was taking a big risk putting my book out there alongside "Stranger in a Strange Land," "We," and "Ender's Game." In fact it felt the height of arrogance to even presume, and I told my students that. But they seemed to enjoy the experience. On the student evaluations, turned in anonymously in a sealed envelope and withheld from the teacher until after final grades had been turned in, the kids were uncharacteristically effusive regarding that particular text. Next time I teach the class, I'll put it in the syllabus and actually make them pay for their copies. Tony Markham - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:17:46 -0600 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: [AML] Hitler (was: Symbolism and Emotional Honesty) Steve wrote: > on 5/31/01 1:04 AM, harlowclark@juno.com at harlowclark@juno.com wrote: > >> but I would like to >> discuss honesty, and the ways people get emotional reactions from other >> people. Cornsidering how a passionate orator like Madolf Heatlump (who >> only had one--I miss John Lennon) can create passion in a crowd emotion >> in art and culture might be worth discussing. > > > As a kid in Logan, UT, I was standing in the LDS meetinghouse foyer when > some adults were asking elderly Sister Durtschi how Hitler had gotten the > Germans behind him. She thought for a minute and said, "If you had been > there with us, if you had once heard him speak, you would have followed him > to the ends of the earth." Then she shook her head and muttered something > in German which I have always wished I'd been able to understand. On my mission, I got to talk honestly with some Germans who were there as well and they say much the same thing if you can establish an honest bond with them (it isn't something they'll casually admit). They have a great deal of shame about it. Hitler is an interesting orator to hear. Politicians then were expected to be rousing because swaying a crowd made good film shorts (which was the media draw of the day). There's lots of yelling and emotion that looks ridiculous to modern sensibilities, particularly if a less-emotional translator is involved. I remember well my shock the first time I heard Hitler and understood what he said. For one, he has a thick southern accent. For another, there is definitely a charismatic pull to his oration. His language flows and draws sympathy in a natural, energizing way and his conviction is absolute. He is certainly one of the best orators of his day. In the calm of reason and benefit of hind-sight, you understand how damaging his words are, but in the heat of emotion he can be very energizing and there is no doubt that he commands attention. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:21:26 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted REWIGHT wrote: > > More than I wanted to know.:) But...it's still not the same thing. There's > a whole lot of emotions involved in childbirth, which men feel to some > extent, but for a woman it takes up her entire being at that time. (Emotions > that I'm sure you did not feel on the toilet). Also pain is not just in one > area during childbirth. It encompasses the whole body (unless she's got > drugs). Some women experience no pain at all. Would that make their experience invalid. > Emotions involved in childbirth? For me there was joy, fear, > anger, embarrassment, humiliation, frustration, wonder, curiousity, > anticipation, etc. Far too many to pinpoint. And pain? "Hold my hand, > but don't touch me. Rub my back but don't touch me." Men may have heard > this, but they don't understand how a woman can want to be touched but not > want to be touched. Yes, they can. Men are not completely oafs. > Yet women understand this. As much as men want to be > involved in the birthing experience (and they should be with their wives at > this time) and as much as men have tried in history to take the birthing > experience away from women (at one point female midwives were illegal), it > still remains a woman's experience, and until science or God makes it > possible for men to go through this it will always be. Men can jump up and > down and say "I know, I know, I know. I held her hand, I was there. I know > exactly how she felt", the truth is he doesn't know. How do you know he doesn't know. You cannot be in his head anymore than he can be in yours. > Most men have the > humility to admit this and would not insult their wives or other women by > stating anything else. But it's not an insult for a woman to suggest that a man doesn't have the capacity to understand the miracle of childbirth? > A man could make the attempt to write of childbirth, and might do a passable > job, but he will never know. And a female writer who has experienced > childbirth would probably be able to do a better job. If she was a good writer, perhaps. > Someone said "Pain is pain, joy is joy, grief is grief." But that's not > true. Writing is not about creating reality, but about creating verisimilitude, the semblance of reality. A blow-by-blow account of childbith by even the most skilled woman is guaranteed to be death on toast. But write about the emotions -- and all you listed men can and have felt -- and I don't think, giving two skilled writers of either sex, that one could do better than the other. > Getting burned is a different pain from getting cut. The joy > attached to an accomplishment is different from the joy attached to a > newborn baby. The grief of losing a parent is different from the grief of > losing a child. Just because someone has experienced a migraine headache > (or in your case, cramps) doesn't mean they understand the pain of > childbirth. My wife gave birth in a hospital where the woman next door was screaming her lungs out. My wife, OTOH, did all the LaMAze steps, the breathing, etc. and delivered with far less (outward) agony. As I said above, women in primitive tribes deliver children while squatting in the fields, bite off the umbilical cord with their teeth, and continue hacking away at the corn stalk. Birthing is as varied an experience as any human experience, despite what I interpret as your attempt to make it a monolithic female experience. And because it is, above all, a human experience, another sensitive human, male or female, should be able to explain the process in fairly realistic terms. - -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - -------------------------- Shameless Plug - ------------------------------- Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:45:54 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Temple in Fiction "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > According to Richard Dutcher, we can tell any kind of story as long as > it's done from a faithful point of view. I agree with him. But just how > far can we take this? > > Specifically, I've been wondering how intimately we can handle the > temple in our fiction. There must be a million fine stories waiting to > be told about the temple and what goes on in there. On the other hand, > much of what goes on in there is sacred and not to be casually discussed > outside its walls. I think we are too "sensitive" with the goings-on in the temple. We seem to forget, for instance, that the Scriptures (available to all) also teach about chastity, sacrifice, and consecration. The WAY it is taught in the temple may be different, but I'm not aware of any new teachings that can't be also found in the scriptures. The Book of Revelation is ripe in temple imagery, for instance. > A marriage is a common event in fiction of any kind. What if the > marriage is a temple sealing? How much can we discuss? How much can we > show? There are only two aspects of the temple sealing ceremony that you would have to avoid, neither of which would greatly lessen the overall simplicity and majesty of the ceremony. You could also include every word the sealer says and not breach any protocol of which I am aware. > You may have a dramatic scene in mind during a temple recommend > interview. How much detail about the interview and the questions is it > appropriate to put into fiction? All the questions and all possible answers could be treated. They are published in a document (the CHI) which any member of the Church can see if they so desire, so they are not "sacred." > Dare I even suggest a scene during the middle of an endowment session? Yes. I can see it being done without breaking any commitments on your part. > A person's first visit to the temple is a situation rife for dramatic >If not, how detailed do we dare get? How much would offend > our fellow Saints? Ah, now THAT's the 64 thousand dollar question, and perhaps the most important, even more important than this question: >More importantly, how much would offend God? God is much not as offended over things as many of his children are. But if you want your fellow Saints to buy the story or book your write based on the temple, please disregard everything I said. It doesn't matter, in the long run what is actually verbotten to talk about, what matters is what your audience THINKS is verbotten. - -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - -------------------------- Shameless Plug - ------------------------------- Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:52:39 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Critique of Writing (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) At 01:05 PM 6/1/01 -0600, you wrote: >This question is interesting to me on a personal level. My mother-in-law >reads and writes romance novels. I read one of her books--it was good, but >needed a little polishing on a technical level. She wasn't interested in my >comments. She told me she'd already decided not to pursue it because she'd >submitted it to a publisher and they'd rejected it. But when I pressed her >on this, it turned out that the "rejection" letter ACTUALLY ASKED HER TO >SUBMIT FUTURE BOOKS FOR REVIEW. I couldn't believe she'd taken this as a >personal affront! To her, it meant she'd failed. So I'm very interested in >people's reactions to criticism of their writing. I can't think of any professional writer I know who wasn't turned down for publication at first. To start, a writer looks for positive encouragement, as your MIL got! And even if the publisher had rejected it, another might like it. There are mailing lists, critique groups, contests, all kinds of support mechanisms in place for the romance writer! Tell her to join the RWA and get onto those lists! As an example of the kind of help that's available, The Beau Monde, an organization for romance writers who set their books in the Regency period, has a mentoring program in which it teams up a published writer with an unpubbed writer so the first can help the second. I was teamed up with a Regency writer named Jessica Benson, and she is an excellent critique partner. (I had reviewed a couple of her books, and she gets the chance to twit me about that all the time!) It's hard to write the kind of thing you like in a vacuum. No one I know in real life writes the kind of novel I enjoy, so meeting and learning from my favorite writers on the lists is a big part of my life. One of the best traditional historical romances by an LDS writer is, in my opinion, Her Norman Conquerer by Malia Martin. The story takes place at the time of the Battle of Hastings--the hero is Norman, the heroine Saxon. The scene about Harold's wife going onto the battlefield after it was all over to find his hacked-up body among the other hacked-up bodies was a killer. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 17:48:51 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Hitler (was: Symbolism and Emotional Honesty) As a kid in Logan, UT, I was standing in the LDS meetinghouse foyer when >some adults were asking elderly Sister Durtschi how Hitler had gotten the >Germans behind him. She thought for a minute and said, "If you had been >there with us, if you had once heard him speak, you would have followed him >to the ends of the earth." A woman I spoke to in Germany told me that Hitler put meat on their sandwiches. Pretty basic. In one of my novels, I wanted to deal with the idea of where the villains get all those henchmen to follow them and do their dirty work. I posited that the villain found out what they wanted and gave to them, or rather made them believe that he would do so. barbara hume - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:03:17 -0500 From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: Brazil Rachel Ann Nunes (noon-esh): I am trying to translate two words and that=20 neither I or my Portuguese husband can=20 figure out. (It's computer related and he's=20 been in the U.S. a long time.) Renato Rigo: Send me the complete phrase that contains=20 the words you want to translate into Portughese=20 and I=B4ll try to help you if I can. _______________ It is since a phrase of computer, the computer=20 could translate it not? I have run over some=20 sites of internet that own a programs to translate=20 one other language into documents. Usually=20 Espanol is the biggest often choice. I have seen=20 not a translator of Portughese, still. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:50:05 -0500 From: "REWIGHT" Subject: [AML] Negative Reactions to Writing (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) >I tried to read Angela's Ashes, >a best seller that was made into a movie. I couldn't get passed the first >chapter. Why? Because I couldn't stand the way it was written. No >conversations, all telling, no showing. To this day I can't tell you what >the Dickens David Copperfield was about and I read the entire thing. So would you therefore conclude that these were poorly written books, or that they're just bad, and that no one with taste should read them? No, I wouldn't come to that conclusion. Obviously many people saw things in these books that I didn't and certainly their opinions matter. I admit that as a writer, trying to be careful to show what's happening and not just tell, it irked me that the writer of Angela's Ashes made it to the best seller list. Now call that the response of a frustrated, jealous, would be writer. :-) I don't know. But he seemed to break ALL the rules. On the other hand I liked Huckleberry Finn even though it broke all the rules. Why? Maybe because it was written in the moment. Maybe I could hear Hucks voice speaking. With the Angela's Ashes it sounded more like someone just droning on and on. Now I know people are going to jump on me about that. In my opinion, Angela's Ashes is poorly written and Huckleberry Finn is extremely well written. But if someone disagrees with me, I think that's entirely fair. After all, how many parents want to burn Huck Finn? On a new topic: I would be interested to hear why you think (as you've said more than once now) that if you ever did get published, all the criticism would be negative. To me that seems unnecessarily self-derogatory and a little fearful. Have you already circulated your novel among friends and had both positive and negative responses? Or do you think it's because it's your first book and you don't know what reaction to expect? I like your new topic. Yes, it's fear talking here. Extreme fear. I know what rejection letters are like (although I haven't had a chance to recieve any for this book yet) and I'm preparing myself for them. It's far more fun to visualize great fame and success, appearing on the Oprah Winfrey show for her book of the month club, purchasing that mansion for my family with my private studio loft, and signing autographs, but, I tell myself I'm more likely to recieve the rejection letter. If I prepare myself for it, I can better cope with the rejection of my baby, and turn around and send it out rather than collapse on the floor in a heaving mess, never to darken the post office door again. I did have another writer critique the first few chapters, and she said she was thourougly enjoying it. I've talked about it with other people who seem to show a genuine interest and mention that they would like to read it. My family on the other hand, has no desire to read it. Perhaps because it might put them in a dillema if they don't like it. What can they say? Lie and say it was wonderful, or tell me outright that it sucks. Sometimes I tell myself that I should think positively, but these days it's enough to keep telling myself that one day my children will be out of diapers. They will...I hope. That's the dream. I don't know what the reaction will be. On top of it, I've sent it to two LDS publishing houses, and I realized the other day that employees of those publishing houses may very well be on this list. I've been shooting off my mouth a lot. My manuscript may cross their desk one day, they might possibly remember me from this list, and decide that there is no way they want to work with me, thinking that I'm an opinionated witch who isn't open to suggestions and can't even write a decent email. (To the oh so talented editor who may be reading this, I am willing to listen to suggestions.) Furthermore, I refuse to announce to the world that I am a great writer. I like to make people laugh, but not that much. In the meantime, I am working on a second novel trying to forget the first one exists. It will be months before I hear anything, unless someone really doesn't like it and garbages it after the first page. Then I might get my rejection letter faster. As for your mother-in-law, I would be more than happy to have someone make suggestions that make my work better. And if a publisher made that request of me, I would be working my fingers to the bone trying to get other things out to him. It sounds like she doesn't understand how this business works. If you get any kind of letter that isn't a standard form, then you've made some headway. Anna Wight - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 01:15:08 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted REWIGHT wrote: > > it's still not the same thing. There's > a whole lot of emotions involved in childbirth, which men feel to some > extent, but for a woman it takes up her entire being at that time. (Emotions > that I'm sure you did not feel on the toilet). Also pain is not just in one > area during childbirth. It encompasses the whole body (unless she's got > drugs). > Just because someone has experienced a migraine headache > (or in your case, cramps) doesn't mean they understand the pain of > childbirth. This was the expected response, which I had hoped to assuage by using words like "extrapolate" and "part of" the childbirth process. I'm not talking about a deep down, gut understanding of an experience I've never had (whether I ever can have it or not). I'm talking about taking pieces of information here and there and everywhere you can get hold of it, grabbing every bit of personal experience that is remotely similar, even if way off in degree, and extrapolate from all that to create a facsimile of understanding which you encode into symbols called words. Then a woman will pick it up and read it. If I've done a superior job of research and preparation, I will have gotten a sufficiently close approximation with my symbols called words that they will evoke the memories of childbirth she has personally experienced, and she will proclaim that I got it just right. I don't have to truly understand childbirth to do that, because everything is communicated through symbols, and people fill in symbols with their own personal experiences. The men who pick it up and read it will never know if I got it right anyway, so I'm covered there too. If you're an editor looking for an author to write a convincing scene of childbirth, you'd probably be wise to find a female author who's been through it. But if you're a male author who needs a childbirth scene in your book, you shouldn't shirk from writing it just because you've never experienced it. You just do your best to get the symbols as close to right on as you can. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:37:36 -0500 From: "Christopher Bigelow" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] re: Temple in Fiction The temple is one of those kneejerk areas in Mormon culture where people can get pretty irrational. I once had a missionary companion get extremely upset with me for discussing the carpet color and carpet sculpture patterns of various celestial rooms. At Irreantum, our editorial staff was split early on about a short story that included some kind of temple imagery or scenes inside the temple. I don't remember all the details, but I'm sure it didn't disclose actual language or rite details. Still, some editors felt that anything even remotely skirting the possibility of temple sacrilege would offend and alienate many readers, which is probably true. I find that kind of attitude often has a "slippery slope" logical fallacy behind it--in other words, the irrational fear that if we take any step in that direction, however small, we will inevitably get drawn onto a slippery slope that must carry us to a complete fall (in this case, probably a _Godmakers_-style mockery). So it is better to overcompensate and stay WAY far away from any imagined slippery slopes. Mormon culture is FULL of slippery-slope logical fallacies (for one, the attitude about R-rated movies), often disguised as "avoiding the appearance of evil" or "better to be safe than sorry." I'm not saying there is no such thing as slippery slopes and that Satan doesn't operate by subtly attaching flaxen cords one at a time, just that fear of slippery slopes is taken too far in Mormon culture and has become too dominant in the Mormon mindset. (In fact, in many ways that attitude IS the modern Mormon mindset.) Chris Bigelow - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #345 ******************************