From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #347 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Tuesday, June 5 2001 Volume 01 : Number 347 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:29:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Critique of Writing (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) Barabra R. Hume wrote: > I can't think of any professional writer I know who wasn't turned down for > publication at first. Generally it's true - but MK Wren (a guest at LTUE in 2000) actually got her first novel submission accepted and published. But she got a few rejections after that before finally becoming established. - --Ivan - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:14:26 -0600 From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Symbolism and Emotional Honesty On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:57:11AM -0500, REWIGHT wrote: > Oh, I realize writers use symbolism. I've done it myself, both in the book > I've written and the one I'm currently working on. When I think of > symbolism I think of CS Lewis and his Chronicles of Narnia. > > But sometimes, a rose is a rose and an apple is an apple, and the author had > no intention of putting any symbolism into it. And some teachers like to > find symbolism in everything. And most teachers don't get the opportunity > to speak the the writer to find out if that's what was meant. Yet they > teach as if they do know. Of course there's nothing wrong with supposing, > or guessing, as long as we recognize that's what we're doing. Teachers find symbolism in everything because Writing depends on symbols. The word "rose" printed on a page is not a rose. When you use the word "rose," you evoke in the reader not just the generic image of a prickly shrub with pinnate leaves and showy flowers, but you also evoke the personal experiences the reader has had with roses, both real and in art. An author may deny the use of symbolism, but the author made a conscious decision to use a rose instead of a carnation, a lily, or some other flower. And frankly, what the author meant doesn't matter. Only what the reader has experienced while reading the text matters. When I write about literature, I don't tell you what the author meant. Instead, I discuss the experience and meaning that I got from the text, and I use examples from the text to demonstrate how I arrived at a position. I enjoy looking at how the symbols in the text create a deeper meaning than you can find with just the base meaning of an author's words. - -- Terry Jeffress | If you can't annoy somebody with what you | write, I think there's little point in AML Webmaster and | writing. -- Kingsley Amis AML-List Review Archivist | - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:58:37 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Temple in Fiction REWIGHT wrote: > > Artists tend to start believing that they are above rules. I personally believe the should. I'll explain why down below. > Artists on the other hand, have the chief purpose of entertaining. No, that's the chief purpose of entertainers. Artists are more like secular prophets. It is their duty to look at the world around them and to point out its beauties and, sometimes, its ugliness. Does a prophet necessarily worry about whether a particular teaching is politically correct. Does he refuse to teach morality because it may offend immoral people? No, he tells the truth as he sees it to be. Artists should act under the same paradigm, with only this difference; they should not claim superior knowledge from God. When they do that, they usurp authority they don't have. > Certainly not a good enough reason to break > covenants for. I've covenanted to have no sexual relations with anyone but my wife, but if I'm cast in a play and it requires me to kiss another woman, I will. I don't see that as breaking a covenant. By the same token, if I have a character swear or commit an adulterous act, I don't consider that as breaking covenants, either. I'm just describing the act. Now, if I ADVOCATE such actions, then I'm on shaky ground. - -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - -------------------------- Shameless Plug - ------------------------------- Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 03:52:52 -0400 From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: Re: [AML] Missionary Stories Scott, Many thanks for your lengthy and intelligent response about the missionary narrative genre. The danube book finally arrived at my door, and I've read it so now I can offer a more informed response to the points you raise. You say, "I can't really explain my frustration with the 'missionary story' genre except to say that most stories focus around one of two things-"look how silly young Mormon men are and isn't it a wonder that they get any good work done," and "look at the spiritual growth/spiritual demise that such a focused experience led these generally unprepared young men to experience." In regards to Danube I can see how this criticism applies, though I don't think that exposing silliness was the main accomplishment of the work. Mitchell captures an intense post-mission nostalgia more than anything else. The nostalgia oozes out of every page, particularly the last hundred or so. Although the romance story with Magdalena at the end packed the novel into a trashy Mormon romance genre, if I choose to read Magdalena as the figurative symbol of his Austrian mission, then it multiplies the nostalgia, physicalizes it, and redeems the last 70 pages of the book. If that symbol is wishy-washy, or ultimately untenable, and I'm not entirely decided if it succeeds or not, then I think I'm going to cut out those last 70 pages and burn them. But the first 130, while revealing silliness and being driven a large part by anecdotal folklike telling of tales, I think goes beyond the two points you criticize above. There is a sort of Keroucian on-the-road feeling to it, a bounding energy and voice. However, I have to differ with Craycroft about the Henderson_Rain_King reference-what exactly was the parallel there? Just that Bellow is a religious writer and Mitchell too? two picaresque novels? In Henderson the Rain King the narrator has a tremendous I-want-I-want-I-want energy that is driving him forward, compelling his adventure through Africa. Mitchell's Barry, however, didn't seem to have that. Barry isn't driven by much, unless you count the King Follet spiritual experience at the beginning. (actually this lack of motive is an interesting characteristic in Mormon missionary narratives. Traditional Christian narratives (the few that exist!) begin with a conversion of sorts, and then the converted goes to convert. The M. missionary, however, begins the endeavor like a vision-quest.) What Barry does have driving him in the book is post-mission nostalgia, a characteristic that accurately describes the mental attitude of returned missionaries, and drags one back instead of forward (or forward in a back-looping kind of way). I agree that much of the first 130 pages of Mitchell's novel is anecdote driven. A lot of the interest arises out of Austrian culture rather than close human-nature examination, or something like that. (And actually, I didn't see the foundations laid for the Magdalena-Barry love affair, which prompts my embrace of the Magdalena as false symbol of Barry's'mission-which means their possible marriage will end in bitter misunderstanding, yes! Judith Freeman ruined her first novel, The Chinchilla Farm (may God help her with titles), with a happy romance ending in the last 3 pages. Perhaps this is the mandate of the mass Mormon crowd). I also agree that the issues should be caused in the missions, not reflected in them, as you say. The frivolity gets old, the childish voice gets old, one wants a more mature narrator who won't be so boyish. This is partly why Sister Fronk's perspective seems to be so suspenseful. Aren't sister missionaries much more demure? Actually I'd love to see a sister missionary pov in which the sister suffers from a tremendous lack of self-esteem, trudges through the streets and contemplates stepping in front of buses, tries to outdo the brother missionaries just to prove her equal ability, while inside she has no desire at all to really preach the gospel, only to occupy her forlorn life. I'm getting so sidetracked. The question seems to be, what would characterize the perfect Mormon missionary narrative? You say, "more human thought as oppposed to iconically Mormon thought. Or less focus on questions of truth, and more on how and why faith works (or fails, though I think we have few well-done stories of how faith succeeds than we do of failure) in the lives of people." I agree with you here, though I think Dutcher's film committs foible number two on your list. The Kansas Elder desires to know truth, and when he gets his testimony, game over. That story is quite an archetype in Mormon iconography-the idea that one desires to know if the church is true, then prays, receives an answer, and voila, all problems are now solved, the narrative conflict now begins the stage of denouement. That is so simple (and untrue) except perhaps for the simple-minded. The most interesting stories are those that defy that whole pattern. It comes back to the desire for a genre-breaker. What missionary narrative will break that genre? I think it must have at least several qualities: (1) A readability by Mormon and non-Mormon audiences. Mitchell's book is practically unintelligible to non-RMs, much less non-members, at least I think. If one focuses on human interaction, human communication, and those other Shakespearianlike observations of our nature, I think the narrative could straddle the fence and live in both worlds. (2) Strip the falling-in-love-with-investigators-or-members theme, drop the we-broke-the-rules-this-badly theme, and cut out all the anecdotal missionary folklore that gets to be like a string of jokes (great for shooting the bull before priesthood, though.) (By the way, there's a motherload of funny missionary folktales in _Contemporary Mormonism_.). And (3) more interesting missionary meditations on the world around him/her. I'm going out on a limb here, this point is just a hunch, but I think it would blow the world away to see an interesting reflector (non-pedantic) behind the nametag-and it would dispense with the frivolity. Tom J. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:41:57 -0600 From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Missionary Stories >Although the romance story with Magdalena at the end packed the novel into a >trashy Mormon romance genre Again, I must protest the automatic coupling of the words "trashy" and "romance." Sturgeon's Law applies, of course, across all genres. But why books about people who love each other are denigrated while books about people who kill each other are praised is beyond me. BTW, I've read quite a few novels that are marketed under the category of "Mormon romance," and I haven't considered any of them trashy. (If you want trashy romance, read something like "Sweet Savage Love," which started the whole bodice-ripper thing.) Rachel Nunes, Anita Stansfield, and Jennie Hansen, among others, write books with strong characterization, compelling plots, and dialogue appropriate to the characters. They know how to use the techniques of fiction writing as well as do many people who write li-fi. barbara hume barbara@techvoice.com Regencies reign! - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 07:08:36 -0300 From: renatorigo@bol.com.br Subject: Re:[AML] Hitler LET=B4S FORGET HIM !!!!! - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:03:40 -0600 From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: [AML] MCCOURT, _Angela's Ashes_ (was: Negative Reactions to Writing) On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:50:05PM -0500, REWIGHT wrote: > It irked me that the writer of Angela's Ashes made it to the best > seller list. Now call that the response of a frustrated, jealous, > would be writer. :-) I don't know. But he seemed to break ALL the > rules. . . . With the Angela's Ashes it sounded more like someone > just droning on and on. It took me a while to get used to Frank McCourt's prose style in _Angela's Ashes_. I think that McCourt did not use direct quotation, because he sees his entire work as a paraphrase. He presents the work as a memoir and not as fiction. Since many of the people McCourt describes are still alive and could possibly find fault with direct quotes, McCourt never quotes anyone. Besides, how accurately could you reproduce the conversations you overheard as a sever-year-old? I think McCourt purposely created the droning feeling you got from reading _Angela's Ashes_. McCourt's childhood had almost nothing positive about it. His happiest times occur while hospitalized and away from his destructive family. But McCourt creates such a vivid image of life in Ireland for the poor and working classes, that I couldn't put the book down. ObMormonLit: McCourt seems to blame much of the poverty in Ireland on the Catholic church. When McCourt leaves Ireland, he also finally feels free to leave the Catholic church. The saints in Winter Quarters and early Salt Lake City, live in similar poverty to McCourt. As a run-of-the-mill saint, it would have been easy to blame Joseph Smith and the other leaders for the poverty of the saints. Was there a huge exodus of saints to escape combined poverty and Mormon oppression? In either case, do we have any literature that shows the poverty of the early saints with the same power McCourt uses to describe Ireland? - -- Terry Jeffress | Backward ran sentences until reeled the | mind. -- Wolcott Gibbs AML Webmaster and | AML-List Review Archivist | - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:06:34 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Temple in Fiction Ronn Blankenship wrote: > > For some people, vot is verboten includes not only anything at all from the > temple ceremony itself, but anything at all that even makes one think of > something in the temple ceremony. Unfortunately, nobody can predict how an > individual member of their audience will react, and after having or > witnessing a few incidents in which someone took offense at a very minor > oblique reference to the temple ceremony, most of us conclude that the only > safe thing to say about the temple is nothing at all. Perfect example. During a production of my musical Prophet (back in 1974), Joseph's shirt comes untucked during the tar and feathering scene. An audience member complained that "Joseph" wasn't wearing his garments. The actor puts on the garments. Next night, his shirt comes untucked. An audience member complained that they saw Joseph's garments. It was somewhere around that period of time when I stopped trying to think ahead as to what would or would not offend someone. Now I just do what *I* want to do, what feels artistically valid to *me*, knowing that some will like it and some will not. - -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - -------------------------- Shameless Plug - ------------------------------- Don't miss the Playwrights Circle Summer Festival at UVSC! *J. Golden* - a one-man play by James Arrington, starring Marvin Payne *SFX5* - 5 original short science fiction plays *Peculiarities* - a new full-length play by Eric Samuelsen For more information about the Playwrights Circle and our summer festival: http://www.playwrightscircle.com - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:43:04 -0500 From: Craig Huls Subject: RE:[AML] Influencing Mormon Culture REWIGHT wrote: > > It kind of reminds me of a line in City Slickers. Billy Crystal is at > the > cattle ranch, a woman comes up to him, says hi, and introduces > himself. His > first reaction was "I'm married." So now I have to ask a question and > I'd > like honest responses. Do men really think that when a woman says Hi, > it's > always a come on? See that's where the fear comes in. If I touch a > member > of the opposite sex, will he think of it as a come on? Will his wife > beat > me up? Will my husband leave me taking the children with him? Will I > live > out my days in the church in shame and infamy? > > Anna Wight > > Sister Wight, I hope non of the above are considerations. I've been single for 8 years after a 31 year marriage. The first 3 years I was single were tough, as ward members who had hugged before all of a sudden stopped. I'm an older brother at 61, perfectly harmless but lovable. I would not allow the 'culture' to get in my way and after complaining a time or two in Gospel Doctrine and from the Stand in F&T meeting and once or twice in PEC things changed. I get my hugs and my handshakes warm and wonderful. AS HPGL I spend alot of time with the Widows and Single Sisters of the Ward and they appreciate a hug too that is a non intimidating, non sexual hug. I always ask first though! One Sister said to me not long ago. "It is neat to have a Brother Friend who I can love who does not feel intimidated and doesn't think I am trying to drag him off to the altar!" I told her, "That's why I only date Methodist Women!' we laughed and hugged! Incidentally, it is why I do not attend local Singles events. First Singles dance I went to in DFW area a year after my divorce, I felt like a slab of beef at a Texas barbecue! Dance one dance and the Sister wanted to know the balance of your bank account the expiration date on your Temple Recommend and did you have a beach home anywhere and if your folks didn't cross the prairie in a covered wagon then how long had you been a convert! This whole cultural thing came up in HP group yesterday and we had a wonderful non contentious though powerful discussion about it. When members coming from Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic and Hindu backgrounds along with some of us warped ones from the "Wasatch front" can hold such a discussion without ire, it helps you to know that HF is still in control. Our reason for the discussion was to help converts understand the difference between doctrine and practice. Such things as the color of the bread at the sacrament whether you use the right hand or not to take of the sacrament raised some interesting points. There are some very strange ideas that are not covered in the CHI that need to be addressed to keep people from taking local practices and turning them into doctrinal stands inappropriately. A whole other thread not appropriate for this list. This thread has been discussing what we as artists might portray to the outside world. I will end this chapter of my book with a very cultural issue. We had a Ward dinner couple of years ago and assignments were made for different people to bring items to compliment the Baked Ham the ward was providing. One delightful Sister who is very special, had only lived in Texas 4 months. Her assignment was to bring a green salad. When she arrived she apologized profusely as she handed a large baking dish that had a delightful orange Jell-O concoction with fruit set in it. She said: "I am really sorry but I was out of Lime Jell-O" She has since learned that green salad in Texas means greens like in lettuce etc.... We helped her feel comfortable, but we haven't let her forget about it! :-) Now if you folks in the Valley don't understand send me a private email and I will explain! - -- Craig Huls mailto:dcraigh@onramp.net - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:57:35 -0500 From: James Picht Subject: [AML] Emotional Honesty (was: WEYLAND, _Ashley and Jen_) REWIGHT wrote: > Emotion on the other hand is honest. ?! That's quite a remarkable assertion. I know that the emotions that people display aren't always honest. Sometimes they're entirely manipulative. I know that the emotions I feel aren't always honest. Sometimes I've been manipulated into feeling them. Sometimes emotion blinds us to the truth, which is why we shouldn't often make important decisions in the heat of strong emotion. As they say, when your heart's on fire, smoke gets in your eyes. One of our hymns tells us not to smother our emotions, but to let wisdom's voice control. Intellect without emotion is a terrible thing to contemplate - the cold, passionless intellects of _The War of the Worlds_ - but emotion without intellect is terribly pathetic. Honesty is a quality associated with truth, and truth doesn't exist without reason. I'm not going to argue for the primacy of intellect over emotion (I imagine my feelings on this are clear), but I think that in a church whose doctrine puts so much emphasis on reason as a path to enlightenment, we spend way too much time extolling the virtues of feeling. Jim Picht - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:56:51 -0600 From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Female Writer Wanted >I didn't even make the attempt to describe the emotions, just what they >did to her. Then, I imply Marcus's insensitivity. Hopefully, though, >some readers will realize (through this scene and many others throughout >the story) that Susan's just really good at not letting Marcus hear her >cry so that she can play the martyr ... but for no one but herself. >Susan is as complex a character as I have ever created, and hopefully a >believable one to males and females alike. I came to her through >observation, informal interview, imagination and possibly a little >inspiration. When I wrote my play, "Stones," I got to the part where >Christ begins to describe to his mother the Atonement that he will suffer >in the garden and she stops him, saying that no man could do that, that >it would kill him. He says, "It won't kill me. And it's not going to >happen today." To which she responds, "Yes it is. If you tell me today >... it happens today. And every day until I die." That seemed to me a >uniquely female or motherly reaction. It wasn't something that I have >ever felt or even imagined. Not until the moment that I wrote it. And I >still have no idea where the idea came from. Scott, I think that you have correctly identified and portrayed female reactions in both these pieces. Women do enjoy playing the martyr, even when they don't realize they're doing it. My family has intelligently chosen to ignore my whines and moans when I get into martyr mood--I can indulge myself as long as I want without bothering anybody, because they just go on with their lives. In fact, if anyone responds with sympathy to one of my complaints, I am actually startled. As for Mary's response, it is completely accurate. If something happens to one of the people I love, my entire life is colored by it and devastated by it. None of the good things in my life can really comfort me. If I knew my son were going to suffer some hideous fate, I would never be happy again. At least, that's the way I feel about it. Barbara R. Hume Editorial Empress barbara@techvoice.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:53:38 -0500 From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Hale Theater > > I'm a recent import to Utah Valley and definitely do count my blessings. I > came from being heavily involved in an award-winning theatre in rural Utah > that had the same calculus as we do here, with the addition that we had to > worry about casting the stake president's son as Joe Cable in a high school > production of South Pacific because Joe doffs his shirt. The SP went > ballistic and the show was almost closed. Yes, having clean theatre is a > blessing. There are also knee-jerk reactions that make it a two-edged > sword. > > -- Scott Tarbet I bet the SP had no problem with his son doffing his shirt to play church basketball.:-) Anna Wight - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:44:04 -0600 From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Temple in Fiction At 07:20 PM 6/2/01 -0500, you wrote: >For some people, vot is verboten includes not only anything at all from the >temple ceremony itself, but anything at all that even makes one think of >something in the temple ceremony. Glenn Larsen had Apollo and Serena "sealed" in Battlestar Galactica, and Dave Woverton had Han Solo and Princess Leia "sealed" while kneeling across from each other at the altar in his Star Wars novel. I had no qualms about those little references, which I think should be pleasing to Mormon members of the audience. barbara hume barbara@techvoice.com Regencies reign! - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #347 ******************************