From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #399 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Thursday, July 19 2001 Volume 01 : Number 399 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:42:08 EDT From: BroHam000@aol.com Subject: [AML] Spring 01 (Humor) _Irreantum_ Okay, I read virtually the whole Spring 2001issue of Irreantum, and I enjoyed most of it. I feel perplexed though, about what I perceived as the prevailing notion that by and large we are a humorless people. This has never been my experience, and I am a lifelong member. My experience is that we are quite jocund and jovial. It has been my experience that many of us (myself definitely included) take ourselves way too seriously and need to loosen up, the key to which is, I believe, humility and gratitude. I detected a fair amount of cynicism and sarcasm in most of the humorous offerings I read, and frankly - while you may get some degree of satisfaction from seeing straight-laced members of The Church with egg on their faces - since pride is the problem, I don't see sarcasm as being really effective in remedying it. I appreciated Brother Snow's examples of the Prophet Joseph Smith's sense of humor in the introduction; I can't imagine the kind of total good cheer expressed in the quote about laughing "from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet," shaking "every bit of flesh in him," as being engendered by some piece of wry wit put forward at someone else's expense. Every example of good humor I saw in Brother Snow's introduction was what I guess I would call "gentle humor". It brought to mind this vignette from The Magician's Nephew: "So they all let themselves go. And there was such merriment that the Jackdaw himself plucked up courage again...and said: "'Aslan! Aslan! Have I made the first joke? Will everybody always be told how I made the first joke?' "'No, little friend,' said the Lion. 'You have not made the first joke; you have only been the first joke.' Then everyone laughed more than ever; but the Jackdaw didn't mind and laughed just as loud till the horse shook its head and the Jackdaw lost its balance and fell off, but remembered its wings (they were still new to it) before it reached the ground." This is gentle humor; it "uplifts and enlightens" (Section 50 is a great guideline for any kind of human interaction). If C.S. Lewis would have had Aslan say, "No, you are the first joke, you dork!" some of us would find that really funny. The the brunt of the jab, though, in this case the Jackdaw, would have been wounded, mortified, diminished. Where is the good in that? And that's what we're about - doing good, right? I have a friend whom I look upon as a kind of a savior to me because she helped me lighten up at a time when I carried some very heavy burdens and felt to grieve unnecessarily over them. At first I found her humor a bit over the top, and it still may be on occasion - I guess that's her issue - but mostly I found myself able to partake more of the joy of living when I started accepting the inherent goofiness that comes with being mortal. I still chuckle when I remember my daughters' reports of how my friend referred to another lady at a girls' camp as "Sister High Blood Pressure" in reference to her short temper and impatience. If this good-natured poking fun ever got back to Sister High Blood Pressure, I would hope she had the humility to accept and appreciate it, and even to let it be a factor for change. The more I think about it, the more apparent it is to me that, like anything else, before we venture upon a course of risk-taking in the humor department, we ought to first seek the Spirit, and abide in it. I guess what I really want to say is that the general membership of the Church is a good-natured lot, and that it is natural to be so by virtue of our membership. I found the prevailing attitude of the offerings in this most recent issue of Irreantum to be a little too sour in that regard. And by the way, as my daughter said to a Utah teenager online the other day, what makes some of you guys think that anyone outside Utah is interested that you have the audacity to use profanity? Virtually every time I read it in one of your pieces, I get the idea that the writer has some kind of "authority" issue, and is taking a rather adolescent pleasure in using profanity for shock value. I feel tired when I read it. I want to say, "Why do you seek to interrupt my rejoicings?" I think the work of the Kingdom can go along much better without it. My best to you all. Linda Hyde - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:11:43 -0600 From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature >Now, if an adaptation of Romeo and Juliet included an explicit sex scene >but neglected the getting married part then I'd say that adaptation >became as much a story of the danger of unbridled passion as it was a >story about damage inflicted by familial feuding (or scheming >priesthood). The power of the sex (whether it is legitimate or not) >would fundamentally alter my perception of that story. The only reason >the story isn't fundamentally about the danger of unbridled passion is >because they seek the advise of the priest and get married. Their >passion is bridled in an ultimately important way. It so is not! They may have gotten married, but it was their unbridled passion and total recklessness that cost them their lives and that stirred up ye ol family feud. The marriage was an extension of their teenage loopiness, not a serious covenant made by two mature people--remember just five minutes prior to the whole Juliet idea he was professing similar undying love for Rosalinde. >Jerry McQuire. I love this movie, too. I use Jerry McQuire as a >counter-example to show how the explicit sex is a needed part of this >story. Seeing Jerry's resignation during sex is a vital part of his >relationship with his girlfriend and shows us his reach for a better >morality. Two things that couldn't have been shown as well any other >way. The scene sums up his character as well as that of his girlfriend >giving us a great baseline for his character changes later on (and shows >that his change isn't as sudden as it would otherwise seem). The sex >scene was not gratuitous and its power strengthened the story. I must disagree strenuously. First of all, that wasn't just "explicit," it was practically pornography. It was so incredibly graphic that I was completely shocked to see it in mainstream movie. Who saw Jerry's face in that shocking flash of flesh? There were plenty of other things that serve as a baseline for Jerry's character and even if you really really wanted to show his great resignation during sex there was no real need to get that graphic. It took me out of the story completely. Marianne Hales Harding _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:19:38 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Chris Grant wrote: > Since you mentioned 3 stories by Card, I thought you might be > interested in related comments Card made several years ago > about "NYPD Blue": > > "It must be said: Never, not once, has any of the > nudity been remotely important to the storyline. Never, > not once, has it been anything other than the series- > creator's adolescent need to say nanner-nanner, I got > away with it. Stories are not advanced by nudity, they > are broken up by it, As long as he is referring to the stories in NYPD blue, I would agree. But I hope he's not talking universally, because I think there are some scenes that are advanced by nudity. (The concentration camp scenes in _Schindler's List_, for instance.) WRT NYPD, I have to agree that the nudity lends little to the story, and I think the producer may have come to that conclusion, the show having virtually no nudity this last season. At least Bochco is an equal opportunity nudity purveyor, having revealed Dennis Franz' corpulent derriere to the TV viewing world. - -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:22:58 -0700 From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Ronald WALKER et al., _Mormon History_ Indeed -- I'm learning a lot from the book. I didn't know he was involved with the Hoffman stuff. Thanks for the post. [Jeff Needle] [MOD: My recollection (as an intern at BYU Studies at the time) is that *all* practicing Mormon historians were involved one way or another with the Hoffman stuff... And very scary it got, too, when it started looking like someone was sending letter bombs to Mormon historians.] - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharlee Glenn" > > I was Ronald Walker's research assistant back in my undergrad days at BYU. > I spent hours and hours squinting at copies of early 19th century American > newspapers on microfiche for him, searching for references to salamanders > and such. Despite the fact that he was duped by Hoffman (he was convinced > that the so-called Salamander Letter was authentic), he's a fine > historian--and a good man to boot! > > Sharlee Glenn > glennsj@inet-1.com > > > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:28:24 -0500 From: "Darvell Hunt" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers "Scott and Marny Parkin" wrote: >You seem to be saying that one must either write for money or for >love, but I simply disagree with the premise. Actually, I didn't say that. I said that I hadn't been able to sell a novel yet because I had been writing for passion without giving much consideration to marketability. I also said that I'm trying to do both of these with my current novel, for which I have a LOT of passion and I think matches the LDS market much better than anything that I've written thus far. Some writing can only be for passion and some is obviously written mostly for marketability. But I believe it's possible to write for both. I want to learn _how_ to write for both. Some have done it already and I see the results. I haven't been able to do it yet, but I hope to soon. Now I've said enough. I think I'll go sit at the back of the class and listen for awhile. Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:09:21 -0400 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Thom and Steve, very interesting observations. I heard once somewhere that a painting should 'say' something. Otherwise, you might as well snap a photo. A think a photographer who is an artist might take exception to this statement. Because, as in any other medium, there are photos and then there are photos. One of the most moving exhibits I have ever seen was a collection of black and white photographs of, I think mostly Auschwitz. The way they were composed individually, and then collectively had an astonishing impact on me. And the choice of black and white vs color was also a part of making the exhibit a work of art. I was also thinking of how this applied to illustrations in children's books. Some pictures are just illustrations. They represent the words on the page and do not add anything else. Other illustrations seem more like your definition of art. In what I have learned to call a 'true picture book' the pictures tell a story of their own as well. In some cases they even totally contradict the actual written word to make it say something that the text alone does not say. Oh, and what about jacket cover illustration. Doesn't that sometimes become art? Some covers are so well done. Tracie Laulusa - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:39:07 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Kenny Kemp Signs Deal >--- Alan Smithee, Jr. Isn't this the name that directors use when they don't want to put their real names in the credits? barbara hume - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:03:51 -0600 From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Anne Wight wrote: >I love Utah. But it annoys me tremendously when Utah Saints think that >everyone is like them. Utah is it's own distinct culture far different from >everyone elses. Some of us are just born to play the contrarian... ;-) I agree with you that Utah Mormons often assume that the rest of the world is like their corner of the world, but I think that idea extends to pretty much every other community, too. There is a baseline American culture that exists nearly everywhere, and it's probably the one broadly reflected in TV and film. But there's also a unique element to every community that clearly differentiates every place from every other--even within Utah. I currently live in a tiny, rural Utah town whose primary industry is fruit growing, and the local culture is radically different from that of Provo (about 30 miles away), including a substantially lower proportion of LDS among our population. I grew up "in the mission field" as a semi-active Mormon, and lived in some pretty diverse locations including San Francisco, Denver, Washington DC, and Chicago before moving to Utah as an adult. Each of those places had their own broad cultural mores, and each community exerted its own pressures. As the only Mormon in my high school in the northwest 'burbs of Chicago I dealt with a unique set of pressures. Mine was a sexually active but conservative school--many people led chaste lives, and those who were overtly active were often despised as having no taste or limits. The group of people I hung out with (band, choir, and theater, mostly) were actually some of the most physically touchy, yet sexually inactive in the school. They liked to flirt and touch, but they had clear limits and they respected each others' limits. The pressures that most hit my school were drugs and conspicuous consumption. I lived a short 25 miles south of the Wisconsin state line, where the drinking age was only 18 (it was 21 in Illinois). The most popular sport in my school was the kegger bash. The second most popular was a precursor to modern Raves with lots of loud music and an assortment of drugs. As the only Mormon in my high school, I had an enormous pressure to be the good guy all the time. Problem was, I wasn't a very good guy. I didn't talk about my Mormonism much, partly because I knew I wasn't a good example and partly because I didn't want to deal with the expectations. Which is a good thing, since I was also a teen alcoholic. In my case, the isolation from Mormon culture caused me problems that I don't think most Utah Mormons have to deal with. My friends never really had to deal with the morality of drinking alcohol--to them they were just jumping the gun on a perfectly legal and acceptable behavior. Sure, they committed mischief, but not sin. For me, though, I had to overcome (or ignore) the whole sin-thing. I started drinking young (about 10; serious by 12) and was a full-fledged lush at 16 and pretty much out of control and unable to stop. My friends thought I was a little hard core, but not too far over the line. But inside my head, I knew I was doing evil. And those who do evil are evil. Therefore, I was evil and to be despised by the people that I had a moral responsibility to--the Mormons. I felt completely estranged from the community that should have been my solace. If there had been any other Mormons in my school who also drank I might have seen a path back, a belief that maybe my sin was not utterly detestable. I might have felt a community with the saints that could have provided me with a hope of redemption. But I didn't have that. I was completely alone, and in my own mind I was damned. Here in Utah, that issue is completely inverted. I listen to kids challenge each other to morality contests all the time. Some of them one-up each other with how pure or chaste or sinless they are, because that's the common experience, the common language and set of assumptions. I've listened to other Mormon kids viciously mock those who seek to uphold the morality they learned at church. They point the finger from within the culture, creating a betrayal that I never had to consider while growing up in Chicago. To prove their Humanity many think they have to sin, and having sinned now find themselves lost between the extremes in the culture that should have protected them. A completely different set of pressures that are no less devastating than those that I faced in Chicago. Living in the heart or Mormon country doesn't mean that social pressure is eliminated; it just takes a very different form. I would argue that the form is sometimes more damaging than direct temptation because it tears at you from within the allegedly safe walls of your community. All of which is tangential to your comments to Michael, but only somewhat so. I'm not sure that Utah kids have it any easier than those outside our would-be Zion. The pressures are different, not less. I cringe just as much when I hear the rest of the country mock Utah's sheltered simplicity as I do when Utahns minimize the social and ethical challenges that don't make their way into Utah. I think both camps are wrong. It's hard all over. All that changes from place to place are the details of the struggle, not the fact of it. Which is one of the many reasons I think we need to expand our definitions of Mormon literature to deal with a wider variety of locations, cultural assumptions, and situations--not all of which require the language of cultural Mormonism. Just because a Utah Mormon has told a story set in Provo doesn't mean another can't tell--or sell--a story that deals with the same issues from a New England perspective. Telling all our stories in all our permutations is how we create the global community of saints, and discover where our similarities outweigh our differences. That's how we become one people. So let us glory in our differences, recognize that we all struggle with our own unique issues, and try to find ways to overcome whatever challenges we face. Minimizing the other guy's problems may make us feel better about our own failures, but it does nothing to solve them, and it certainly doesn't create the community of saints that can support all of us in our time of need. We create and change our own culture with our art. I believe that through literature, through telling true stories of our individual struggles (whatever they may be), we can knit together our diverse Mormon communities and build a true Zion that spans the world. If we can only stop one-upping each other about how much harder our own lives and problems are. Scott Parkin - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Snow Subject: [AML] Upcoming Penguin Lives Bio of Joseph Smith Penguin Books has announced as a part of its Penguin Lives biographical series that Jacksonian historian Robert Remini will author a short 150-200 page biography of Joseph Smith. It should be published at about the time as Dutcher's movie is distributed, which should also coincide with Joseph's 200th birthday anniversary. I've not read any of Remini's historical works, but he's written about Jackson, Clay and other Jacksonian figures. He's an emeritus professor at the Univ. of Illinois. If you're unfamiliar with them, the Penguin Lives series presents short, readable, but a bit pricy, biographies of American and world figures written by prominent authors, usually with a literary flair. Ed Snow ===== Read free excerpts from _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_, a Signature Books Bestseller at http://www.signaturebooks.com/bestsell.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 02:18:39 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Jacob Proffitt wrote: > I didn't say you should shy away from it, only that you should treat it > with the power it has. If you don't, you will lose me as a > reader/viewer. I _did_ think you were saying, "Sex is powerful, so you'd better not use it." Now that you've clarified things, I think we may more or less agree. In fact, I think you may have presented a good definition of "gratuitous sex." I define it as sex which is not integral to the story--apparently just thrown in for the effect. You may have pinpointed the mechanism behind it: ignoring the power of sex in people's lives. Sex which doesn't affect their lives is gratuitous because it's a lie. Sex which affects the characters' lives is sex which then becomes integral to the story, because it changes the story. And therefore ceases to be gratuitous. > A literature without sex may be considered incomplete because > it doesn't contain all possible human experience but it is hardly > telling a lie. I hate it when people try to tell me that my life is > driven by sex. It isn't. Sex is a powerful part of life, and a part > everyone has to deal with, but it is just a part. I can't do more here than say I disagree. Sex doesn't have to enter every story--although a character's attitude toward sex ought to be one of those background things an author knows about the character, even if it remains subtext in the story--but if a body of literature which claims to reflect the lives of a distinct group of people, like for example, LDS literature, never reflects a powerful aspect of their lives like sex, then how can it be an accurate reflection? There's a big difference between not reflecting all possible human experience and leaving out a significant aspect of human experience. Fortunately, LDS literature has not left sex out entirely--but there have certainly been attempts to make it that way. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 02:25:56 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture REWIGHT wrote: > Sorry D. Michael, but Utah Saints are in a different culture than Saints in > the rest of the world. > I love Utah. But it annoys me tremendously when Utah Saints think that > everyone is like them. Utah is it's own distinct culture far different from > everyone elses. It annoys me when people assume, because I live in Utah now, that I'm just another ignorant Utah Saint. I grew up in Minnesota and didn't move to Utah until I was well into being an adult. I was one of AT MOST four Mormons in my whole high school. I wasn't speaking in ignorance. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 03:25:56 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Chris Grant wrote: > Since you mentioned 3 stories by Card, I thought you might be > interested in related comments Card made several years ago > about "NYPD Blue": > Stories are not advanced by nudity, they > are broken up by it, as the audience stops thinking > about what happens next and is either attracted to or > repelled by or shocked about or simply distracted by > somebody's breast or butt. I simply have to disagree with him here, although I assume he's talking specifically about stories in visual media, since he's had his share of nude scenes in his books. But I take the same stand here as with the "sex is powerful" issue. Nudity stops or advances the story based solely on whether the storyteller handles it well or not. Even KSL was willing to air the nudity in _Schindler's List_ (while balking at the F-word), a tacit acceptance of the notion that nudity can be integral to the story. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 08:20:59 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] GILMORE, _Shot in the Heart_ (Deseret News) Tom Johnson wrote: > > Since you brought up Gilmore and someone is making a movie of JS, I just > have to ask this question. In his book, Gilmore says that the mobsters who > killed JS dragged him down to the ground and shot him in the heart so that > his blood would drop onto the ground in some kind of ....I can't remember. > the blood atonement stuff wasn't until BY, right? Anyway, does anyone know > if that's true, that they shot him in the heart etc? or is it folklore. > > Tom It's folklore. Joseph fell out the window, or jumped. He wasn't shot in the heart but did bleed while lying on the ground. - -- Thom Duncan Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 18:35:57 From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature > >Chris Grant wrote: > > > Since you mentioned 3 stories by Card, I thought you might be > > interested in related comments Card made several years ago > > about "NYPD Blue": > > > Stories are not advanced by nudity, they > > are broken up by it, as the audience stops thinking > > about what happens next and is either attracted to or > > repelled by or shocked about or simply distracted by > > somebody's breast or butt. > D. Michael: >I simply have to disagree with him here, although I assume he's talking >specifically about stories in visual media, since he's had his share of >nude scenes in his books. Doesn't the quote indicate he's referring to "NYPD Blue" specifically? Or did Chris misidentify it? For what it's worth, I agree with Scott about "NYPD Blue." I'm an avid fan of the show, and while there's not as much nudity as some would have you believe (it occurs maybe twice a season, at least the past few years), I've never seen it add anything to the story or characters. I think the idea is to make the show "gritty" -- the same reason they use rather foul language (which, by the way, DOES add to the show). Eric D. Snider _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:56:11 -0600 From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: [AML] Re: Fiction in Church Mags >>>Rich Hammett: >>>BTW, did anyone ever come up with documentation=20 on the "no fiction in church mags" policy? My returned=20 missionary e-mail list thinks that I made the whole thing up. Being curious, I called The Friend a couple weeks ago and spoke with three = different editors who each told me the same thing: no more fiction, but = there is still room for "true-life stories." Tyler - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:18:43 -0600 From: Russ Asplund Subject: RE: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Okay, I have lived in Utah for all of my life that I can remember. My family history with the church stretches back for generations. And yet, I am a middling liberal democrat, like to dye my hair odd colors--or shave it off entirely at present. I like loud music, write stories based on Jewish Mythology, and have struggled and sinned enough that I can't imagine judging anyone else. I also have a firm testimony and take joy in teaching six year old kids in primary. So I have been raised a Utah Saint, but I don't think I fit anyone's preconceived notions of what a Utah Saint should have turned out like. My point? Not only is each culture distinct, each person is distinct. That is what I value about literature, it lets me see the world from someone else's eyes for a while. My other point is that it bothers me when people stereotype Utah Mormons. Because it doesn't describe me, and it often leads people like me to feel disenfranchised from our culture. Russell Asplund russa@candesa.com "Art is a lie which makes us realize the truth." -Picasso - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:35:05 -0600 From: Russ Asplund Subject: RE: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Why is her parallel any more false than your assessment that Olsen is an illustrator because he doesn't fit your preconceived notion of what an artist should be? And you seem to me to be arguing almost exactly backwards. An illustrator would try to tell a story with their picture. An artist simply tries to create something of beauty, whether it is representational, abstract or symbolic. Now, that art can be bad, good, great, or anywhere along that spectrum. It might move some people more than others. But that doesn't mean we get to call what we like art and dismiss everything else as illustration. Or accuse others of "expects less" just because they expect differently. Russell Asplund russa@candesa.com - -----Original Message----- From: Thom Duncan [mailto:ThomDuncan@prodigy.net] Someone recently disagreed with my assessment of Greg Olsen as an illustrator not an artist. To support Olsen as an artist, she used what I consider a false parallel, that being that she and her daughter were moved by the painting, and therefore it is art to her. Nature can be moving. Seeing a majestic landscape can literally take one's breath away. Is that art, however? Or is that just mankind reacting to overwhelming beauty? I don't deny that Olsen's Christ looks like a real person, an attractive person at that. The alabaster walls of Jerusalem in the background are beautifully rendered. The picture is definitely "pretty." But, to me, it's static. It's not just a snapshot of something happening in time. It has no past or future. Is Christ sitting because he's tired? Can't tell. He's too clean to have been walking the streets of Jerusalem all day. What does his expression tell us about what he thinks about Jerusalem? To me, it tells me nothing. Christ's face is expressionless. He could just as easily be looking at a tree, or a rock. Christ isn't sitting as real people sit, he's posing. None of this means, however, that a person who expects less out of our community's artists can't be moved by such paintings. But then we're talking about matters of taste, and not the nature of art. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:01:49 -0700 (PDT) From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels The thread about artists vs. illustrators got me stuck on another tangent: One of my Mormon literary interests is considering forms of writing that may be particularly suited to capturing Mormon philosophy and culture. I've floated two of those ideas to the list already---parables and collaborative writing. Here's the next one: graphic novels. In particular, I think that it would be a fascinating way of capturing the experience of LDS missionaries---a way that could enlarge the genre of the missionary story. When I was on my mission, I came across a little comic-book pamphlet ominously titled Vizitatorii (the Visitors). I think an investigator gave it to me. It was part of a series of Christian (of the born-again vareity, I believe) illustrated tracts put out by a guy located in Chico, CA. The visitors are, of course, LDS missionaries and the tract warns against their evil ways--even debunking their doctrines and exposing their methods. The basic plot: an older women is falling under the influence of the elders. Her young, attractive, college student niece appears one day and takes the elders apart using 'logic' and bible verses. The illustrations are actually quite good. I recall one panel where one of the elders faces is completely tensed and the sweat is streaming down his forehead. The ending is hilarious. As the two defeated elders walk away, one of them begins to express doubt---the other threatens to tell the mission president (I forget what term was used) who would send the doubter off to 're-education camp' (the MTC). So I began by thinking of how one would do a parody of Vizitatorii, but then that seemed hard because it was already kind of a parody, but then I turned to thoughts of Art Speigelmann's _Maus: A Survivor's Tale_ which I haven't read all the way through yet but have read a lot about... My point is that I think the epic-journey kind of structure of the LDS mission (plus the many strange characters one often meets in the course of doing the work) lends itself to the graphic novel form. Anyone else had these thoughts? Any comments on graphic novels as a form--possibilities and limitations? I'm not very familiar with the genre, but I have flipped through some and read reviews of others and it seems as a genre to be stretching beyond the violent, anti/super-hero mode. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:57:02 -0700 From: "???n ??e" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture I knew that sooner or later, the topic of "Utah Mormon Culture" was going to head its ugly rear. A wise former moderator of this list once headed me off from making a comment about Utah Mormon culture that I'm sure would have angered a few people. I don't even remember what I was going to say, but I'm sure it was injudicious. I've lived all over, and though I grew up Mormon, after a fashion, was not always in the company of the local Mormon culture. Since becoming an adult, I settled mainly in the Portland, Oregon area, where I live now. What began to change my mind was a four-year relocation to Columbus, Ohio. I started to see that what I thought was a Utah Mormon culture was merely a stereotype that some of us outside of Utah believe in but is not necessarily true. The reason Columbus, Ohio made a difference in my thinking was that in the four years we lived there, many circumstantial changes had a surprisingly large effect on the local Mormon culture. Add to that the broader experience of leaving Portland and then returning to it four years later, where other changes had triggered interesting cultural effects here. In Columbus, the following factors existed: * There was a bedrock of old Mormon families in the area that had been there when there was little more than a ward to cover the whole city. * It had grown to have three stakes each of which covered large territory in outlying areas. * It was in the Washington DC Temple district making for an 8-10 hour drive for temple worship. * The stake center was shared by two wards and two stakes. * There was a mixture of wards and branches in the stake. One of the wards was about 70 miles away. Some of the branches were closer as the crow flies, but down old rural roads that made them more difficult to get to and from. * Within our ward, there were the Westerville residents and the Columbus residents. Westerville was an old village that was now an extension of Columbus. Mostly separated by the outerbelt I-270 freeway, Westerville had a lot of very well-off families. The Columbus side of the ward was not well-off at all and partially slummy. * There was a deaf colony in the ward boundaries, not enough for a unit of their own. All of these factors and more made for a difficult cultural adjustment for my family and me. We lived on the Columbus side of the ward. Our teenagers went to an entirely different high school than the other teens in the ward. Ours was an inner city high school with all of its problems. The other high school was a suburban high school with all of its problems. The old-family people didn't seem to realize that the new-family people keenly felt the differences. The travel distance to church meetings, for home teaching, to stake conference, and for socializing made for interesting culture. So many things changed when a building was being remodeled and people had to travel an hour each way to the building. When the Columbus temple was built, there were big cultural changes that came with it. When some deaf people converted, the need for interpreters grew. The Gospel Essentials class was being taught in ASL. I remember that when the Utah-raised choir director had us open to "The Wintry Day," a Jewish-raised convert commented that the song had little application to Ohio saints, to which the Utah-raised husband of the choir director responded that the pioneer heritage belonged to all saints everywhere. Even more significant to my outlook was moving from the Portland, Oregon area, where the Church was purported to be the second largest denomination next to Roman Catholic, to the Columbus, Ohio area where the Church was barely known, and then back to Portland after some pretty significant changes. When we returned to Portland, the urban stake we had left had been decimated by members moving to the suburbs, mostly to the Washington state side of the Columbia River where housing costs were lower. The changes to the culture of urban Portland Mormons seemed significant. Wards that used to be burgeoning with converts were struggling to stay alive, while outlying stakes were talking about splitting. This year, a reorganization reduced the number of wards in that stake. My overall belief about culture now is that it is closely tied to circumstances and that small changes in circumstances result in large changes in culture. Even things like the view of the authority of priesthood leaders changes, not just from place to place, but from era to era. I moved out of what I used to call, under my breath, The Unrighteous Dominion stake. I called it that after a high councilor reemed a counselor of mine and then said in an aside to me, "A little unrighteous dominion now and then doesn't hurt." From association with some of the people from that stake now, they seem to have softened a great deal now that they're not the highest baptizing stake in the Church. I have come to believe that referring to the "Utah Mormon Culture" is no more than a stereotype. I think the cultures in the church change drastically from stake to stake and ward to ward, based on leadership styles, geography, ethnicity, history, and a little bit of randomness. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #399 ******************************