From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #421 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Friday, August 10 2001 Volume 01 : Number 421 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:38:37 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments >Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit margins = going >on=20 >here. Read this brief article from the National Center for Policy = Analysis=20 >(which I found quite easily by searching "R rated movies" at >google.com).= The=20 >URL is Look, I enjoy the wholesome sport of Hollywood bashing as much as the next = man, especially after seeing Pearl Harbor. But there isn't anything = sinister going on. A few quick points while unpacking: 1) There's no such thing as Hollywood. There does not exist some = mysterious entity trying to undermine people's morals by making dirty = movies. Studios mostly don't even generate their own material anymore. = Studios are deal brokers and distribution networks. What you have are a = whole bunch of people trying to make pictures, and hoping to make = profitable ones. Studios don't go "we better release more PG-13 movies = this next year." They take it on a case by case basis. They say: "I like = this story, and I think we can get Mel Gibson for it, and there's a part = for maybe Christine Ricci, and I think Jonathan Demme might be interested = in directing." Disney is sort of any exception; Disney does generate its = own material to a greater degree than other studios tend to. That's the = reason Disney is generally known as 'The Evil Empire.' Far and away the = worst intellectual property thiefs in the industry. And Disney, for the = most part, does not specialize in family fare. Check out Touchstone = releases for content. 2) All films are trying to tell a story. All stories involve conflict and = the best conflicts revolve around sex and violence. And films frequently = revolve around characters in highly volatile situations, where even the = most mild-mannered folks might be tempted to, uh, express themselves = forcibly. Thus more films are rated R than anything else. 3) Ratings do matter--they exist almost exclusively as a marketing tool. = Once a picture gets greenlighted, a battle begins, between the executive = producer, who's usually there to look out for the studio's financial = interests, and the creative team. But, believe it or not, for the most = part, studios would rather not interfere, and would rather let artists = work. And most of the time, studios are trying to tone things down, not = spice them up. =20 4) It almost goes without saying that there is no correlation whatsoever = between the potential negative or positive moral impact of any film and = its rating. =20 Conclusion: The story drives the rating. The story also determines the = success of the picture. So Medved's conclusion is "Hollywood should find = better stories to make movies out of." And that's just a great big d'uh. = There's not a studio exec in the world that would disagree with it. Oh, one p.s. Do you want to see better films? Did you pay to see The = Straight Story? The Iron Giant? The Dish? Searching for Bobby Fischer? = If you didn't, then you're part of the problem. Great films, great family = values, and they all tanked. It may be true that there are movies we = shouldn't go see. It's just as important to emphasize that there are = pictures we SHOULD see. =20 Eric Samuelsen =20 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:57:09 -0600 From: "Ethan Skarstedt" Subject: RE: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Chris Grant said: >There were a lot of responses to D. Michael's original "this >just doesn't happen" post pointing out actual events in the >lives of the posters or their acquaintances mirroring actual >events D. Michael said occurred over and over in Weyland's >stories. By not focusing on internal conflicts, did these >responses miss the point, also? Actual events and inner conflicts are two different animals, and D. was dealing with them separately, thus the need to refer to a different part of his post when discussing it. =20 "In the same message in which you said that Weylandesque conversions don't happen in real life, you praised the Mad Max films." So no, they did not miss the point of the first part of Michael's "this just doesn't happen" post. They dealt with the relevant part of it. >In any case, let's look at internal conflicts. Mad Max had >to face internal conflicts such as: "Do I use this sledge- >hammer to administer the coup de grace to this athletic, >violent giant I've been battling in a cage match now that >his helmet has come off and I can see, to my great surprise, >that he apparently has Down's Syndrome?" I assume that the >argument that the internal conflicts of Mad Max are of the >sort that happen in real life while the internal conflicts >of Weyland's characters do not would require this internal >conflict to be stated in a more general way: "Do I risk my >own physical well-being to show mercy to another?" To be >fair to Weyland, any argument that the internal conflicts >of Weyland's characters just don't happen in real life >should state those conflicts at the same level of >generality. Building on Scott's message about choices being between two rights more often than not, I say that Mad Max's choice (stated in generic terms by Chris) "Do I risk my own physical well-being to show mercy to another?" is between two right things, self-preservation and mercy. The Jack Weylandesque choices that are being bandied about so much seem to be, stated specifically, "Do I marry this non-member now or do I try and convert them first?", and stated generally, "Do I disobey the prophet and common sense or do I go along with both of them?" The choice is obvious and therefore boring. (these kinds of choices do crop up in real life but that doesn't make them interesting) The generic form of the Mad Max choice also crops up in real life but does not have an immediately obvious answer and carries some consequences for making the right decision, to show mercy, and is therefore interesting, to me anyway. =20 >>It seems like so many of the morality tales just have >>characters doing what they do for no apparent reason. >>[...] >>They rarely choose a less than optimal path. >I've always associated rationality with choosing optimal paths. >Are you saying that people who live lives ruled by reason tend >to make more sub optimal choices than people who don't? I believe that Scott was saying that the choices made by Weylandesque characters always *end up* being the optimal choice whereas, in real life, choices that look optimal up front, (those chosen by people whose lives are ruled by reason/rationality) often turn out, to their grotesque surprise, to be sub-optimal. Dealing with the irony and complications caused by such a choice and exploring why it turned out to be bad while looking so good up front is interesting and has application in readers lives. - -Ethan Skarstedt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:33:15 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] My Vanity Site At 02:52 PM 8/8/01 -0600, you wrote: >Well, I finally went and put up a vanity site. Which is to say, I did >it months ago and I'm just now getting around to telling people about >it. I put my poetry and some random essays up for just anyone to read. >I'm the only author featured, please forgive me that conceit. If you >want to have a go at it, please head over to http://Jacob.Proffitt.com. > I welcome comments and even critique if you feel >like sharing. Nice, clean interface! Do you plan to add a section called "My Fiction"? barbara hume - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:28:44 -0500 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Mormon Monasticism I was just reading a historical overview of the development of the early Christian Church in the Mediterranean and Europe, when I came across the following passage: "Today, when the ideal of the Christian life is normally taken to be that of active charity towards one's fellow men, it is perhaps hard to grasp the idea; but it should be recognized that monasticism is not just a quirk of Christianity at one stage of its development; most of the world's great religions, some older than Christianity, practice it. Indeed if the reality of prayer as a means of access to God is acknowledged, it is hard to deny that a life dedicated to prayer is justified." (Martin Scott, _Medieval Europe_, p. 12) It may be true, as this author suggests, that monasticism as such is simply not much regarded in modern Western culture. But even looking at other modern religions, it strikes me that Mormonism is (for a combination of social and doctrinal reasons) perhaps the least accommodating to any kind of monastic life: i.e., a deliberately simplified life dedicated to religious devotion (narrowly considered), usually with some degree of separation from general society, often in seclusion or sharing association with member of a (non-familial) community. The closest I can come is in thinking about the life of some older members, stereotypically single sisters, who live close to the temple and dedicate as much of their time as they can to working in the temple. I think this raises some potentially interesting questions from a perspective of Mormon letters: * Is there any kind of accepted "monastic" Mormon lifestyle? Is the example I gave above an accurate one? Are there others? * Is the monastic lifestyle something that has attraction for certain classes of people/types of personalities today? If so, what are those personality types or key characteristics? * What are the key features of a monastic lifestyle? E.g., is it really possible for a married couple to be "monastics"? (I'm reminded of Scott Card's science-fictional Catholic religious order that consisted of married couples who were supposed to remain celibate. A very odd, but fun, fictional invention.) How close does a married mission come to a true "monastic" experience? Can you be monastic in your lifestyle while holding down a job? Is being a community a necessary part of the experience? * What are the options for a committed Mormon with monastic tendencies? What stresses are (or aren't) laid upon such members in a family- and activity-oriented Church? How could these be depicted in a work of literature? Would this be something that would interest very many people? * Can you think of literary examples from Mormon literature of characters you would consider as having monastic tendencies? How were they handled? Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:01:53 -0700 From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Church" >There is a church called The Church of Christ so calling our church The >Church of Jesus Christ would be confusing for alot of people. "A lot" would seem to be a serious overstatement of the case. There are a handful of small independent churches that use the name, and another handful of Mormon schismatic groups that use the name. All told, there is a grand total of probably fewer than a couple thousand people belonging to churches that use the name. And those 20-some small churches probably don't even know about -- let alone interact with -- one another. - --lmg - ----- MEET MY KIDS>> http://www.pagoo.com/signature/pagoo28 WHAT ARE WE WRITING NOW? Do you have your copy of LauraMaery's book " Mormons on the Internet 2000"? Thousands of LDS Internet resources, categorized, reviewed and rated. New sections on Internet safety, teaching helps, resources for senior Saints. Hundreds of Hotlinks, a top-25 list, and a list of honorable mentions. Did you make the list? Order your copy of Mormons on the Internet 2000 at . - --------- Have an LDS Internet resource? Post it to the Mormons on the Internet submission site. It's easy! Just find your category, and submit your resource. It'll appear on the site almost immediately! . - --------- Visit our Web site at - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:21:44 -0700 From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] Orson Scott Card I just recently finished the second novel in the series (Shadow of the Hedgemon (sp)) and I feel this series is going to be as good as the Ender series. I highly recommend the Ender series (Ender's Game, etc.). I didn't know the "Pastwatch" was going to be a trilogy series. The Redemption of Columbus was so good it seemed to stand alone. Any word on what the other novels in that series will be named? Jerry Tyner - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:52:57 -0600 From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Aspirations for Mormon Lit (was: Creative Use of Language) On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:11:46PM -0600, Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > Terry L Jeffress wrote: > >I don't believe that Scott has closed his mind, but rather, he has > >judged Mormon literature against a background of works that provide > >that substantial satisfaction that lasts long beyond the actual > >reading of the text -- that feature of literature that Kenneth > >Burke calls "equipment for living." > > Maybe I expect too much. I do want to read a book that changes the > way I think forever after. I read such books regularly outside the > Mormon market, and I find them in many genres. So far, only Richard > Dutcher's _Brigham City_ and J. Scott Bronson's _The Whipping Boy_ > have really satisfied me as meeting this arbitrary criterion within > the Mormon market. In literary circles, we often talk about common story traits such as character, plot, and setting, but it seems to me that we too often ignore one of the most powerful aspects of a story -- persistence. To me, _persistence_ describes the ability of a story to stick in our heads, to make us think of aspects of the story for days, weeks, or even years later. Which stories can you bring to mind at any time? Which stories bring themselves to your mind uninvited? Stories that we remember easily and often spring to mind exhibit a high quantity of persistence. A story that exhibits persistence does not necessarily imply a high quality story. For example, most people would agree that pornography has a high persistence, that graphic images or text stick in our minds much more easily than other forms of art and literature. Of course, not all persistent stories offer pornography. We have many cultural stories with high persistence. In the United States we frequently retell the stories of young George Washington and the three little pigs. In LDS culture, we retell the story of Joseph Smith's first vision and the pioneers coming to the Salt Lake valley. As individuals, we have our own set of persistent art. Certain stories keep coming back to us. For me, the stories that keep coming to mind don't always coincide with the stories that I loved at first reading. For example, when I read Nabokov's _Lolita_, I felt awe at the fluid language. If anyone asks me for an example of fine modern literature, I usually point them to Nabokov. But my mind much more readily conjures up scenes from _Gattica_ or Robert van Wagoner's _Dancing Naked_ than from _Lolita_. I have found that over time I tend to reread the stories which have haunted me in one way or another; I reread the stories that persist. Often, I reread a story to try to regain the emotional response I remember from the first reading or to confirm my memory of the text. Did character X really say he hated Y before Y chased X with the hedge trimmer? And sometimes with a rereading, I find that the persistent elements of a story never existed in the original at all. My mind used the story as a basis for its own persistent fiction. We all seem to agree that we want better Mormon literature. For me, none of the Mormon literature I have read so far really has the quality of persistence. I might enjoy reading the story at the time, but the stories don't seem to stick. Nothing from the story pops into my head at random to make me smile or want to share with those nearby. Above, Scott said that he wants to read literature that "changes the way [he] thinks forever," which I think partly includes the quality of persistence. For literature to alter our view of the world, that literature must constantly bring itself to mind so we can compare the literary world with that of our own. We have discussed a desire to see more _edge_ to Mormon literature. We have also talked about art that cheats -- art that does not deserve the emotional response it evokes from the viewer or reader. Could an artist create artificial persistence in a similar way? I think an artist could easily leave the edge and move into the area of shock. Shocking literature would certainly have more persistence, but that does not necessarily produce the effect we want. Maybe one cannot purposely write stories that exhibit persistence -- you just have to have the right combination of elements that resonate with the audience. In looking for the next step in Mormon literature, I agree with Scott that I would like to see more edge. I also want to read stories that have persistence. I don't necessarily want the stories to change the way I think, but I do want them to give me food for thought. - -- Terry L Jeffress | Find a subject you care about and which | you in your heart feel others should | care about. It is this genuine caring, | not your games with language, which will | be the most compelling and seductive | element in your style. | -- Kurt Vonnegut - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 15:41:51 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? At 10:11 PM 8/7/01 -0600, you wrote: >But yes, I am talking about "mainstream" stories in general (whatever >mainstream means...). Not because I think it's a better type of story, but >because I think it poses fewer barriers to entry for the average Mormon >reader. Not a comment on quality, but on general accessibility. Thanks for your interesting answer to my question. I don't object to literature that challenges my comfort level if it's done for a reason. If a story forces me to face the fact that I am complacent, or prideful, or selfish, that's good. Once I see those flaws and accept the fact that they are there, I can do something about them. I object to a story that seems to be trying to gross me out just for the fun of it--that's sophomoric. I agree (sadly) that literary fiction offers more accessibility. I have read some novels that would make wonderful, meaningful, uplifting films, but since they were marketed as romance fiction few people will ever know about them. Had they been marketed as mainstream or even as women's fiction, things might be different. Barbara R. Hume, Editorial Empress Complete range of writing and editing services High-tech a specialty TechVoice, Inc. (801) 765-4900 barbara@techvoice.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:56:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert J Woolley Subject: Re: [AML-Mag] RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > lives more validity than they truly have in the "real" world. How else > do you explain that *every* sympathetic fictional Hollywood U.S. > President is a liberal? When you say, with emphasis, *every*, it is just begging for counterexamples. I thought of two within about 10 seconds. Harrison Ford in "Air Force One." Bill Pullman in "Independence Day." Do you think that these characters are not sympathetic? That they are liberal? Or would you like to rethink your use of "*every*"? [Robert J Woolley] - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:06:39 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments "Eric D. Snider" wrote: > John Williams: > > >Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit margins going on > >here. Read this brief article from the National Center for Policy Analysis > >(which I found quite easily by searching "R rated movies" at google.com). The > >URL is > > > >http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd102400e.html: > > I'm not sure how literally we are take the word "sinister" here. (I > mean, does he really mean everyone involved is left-handed?) The > numbers do show that R-rated films are not as financially successful > as films with other ratings. But that doesn't necessarily mean that > Hollywood is making them anyway for some evil purpose. For one thing, > that assumes "R-rated movies" are evil. I'd be more likely to ascribe > it to bad business sense or artistic reasons (the old "some movies > couldn't be made with less than an R rating" argument). Couldn't it be just the fact that R-rated movies tend to be the ones that garner Oscars? Getting an Oscar for a film that may not do well in the box office is like a massive infusion of capital to a producer or a studio for future productions. Thom - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:22:30 -0700 From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] GA Interview for Irreantum Boyd K. Packer would be another suggestion. Jerry Tyner - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:34:20 -0600 From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:10:38PM -0700, Katrina Duvalois wrote: > Bishop Bishop > Elder Humble and Elder Meek > These sound like character names in "As the Ward Turns"! > Katrina D. Do you mean Hilton, Joni. _As the Ward Turns._ American Fork, Utah: Covenant Communications, 1991. ISBN 1-55503-364-4. $12.95. (Still in print, by the way.) I don't recall these characters in particular, but I do remeber a very funny scene involving a jello salad. - -- Terry L Jeffress | I have never met an author who admitted | that people did not buy his book because | it was dull. -- Somerset Maugham - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:33:55 -0600 From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Moderator Musings on Misinterpretation >===== Original Message From aml-list@lists.xmission.com ===== >Jonathan Langford wrote: > >> * If you find yourself thinking uncharitable thoughts about the intelligence >> or understanding of the person to whom you are responding, consider *very >> strongly* the possibility that you are misunderstanding what he/she is saying. >Thom wrote: >I agree that communication is a two-way street, but you may be asking the >impossible here: for us to second-guess the motive of another person and to >assume, in every case, that we are the one in the wrong. It just may be that >the >other person actually IS an idiot and deserves to be told so. [MOD: Not, >however, on this list...] I sometimes find myself thinking uncharitable thoughts about my OWN intelligence. But I'm not offended by it :) - --John. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:41:49 -0600 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: [AML] Email Essays (was: My Vanity Site) - ---Original Message From: Barbara Hume > > http://Jacob.Proffitt.com. > > I welcome comments and even critique if you feel > > like sharing. > > Nice, clean interface! Do you plan to add a section called > "My Fiction"? Why thank you! I have all the tools to busy it up, but decided I'd rather just let it be simple. Thanks for reinforcing that decision. I'm not sure if I'll add a "My Fiction" section. First, I haven't written any fiction I want my name on, yet. Second, if I *do* write fiction (I have two projects planned at this point with enough detail that it might actually happen), I'll be writing for publication. I wouldn't want to mess up any rights with a generally available web site. I'll cross that bridge if it ever approaches. Essentially, anything on the site now is stuff that I consider unpublishable. There isn't much market for poetry (er, I considered submitting to Irreantum, actually, and Chris is certainly free to see if there is anything there he'd like to use) and the "Thoughts" section is all political and/or economic essay--another non-existent market. We *could* discuss what I consider to be a new literary genre if we wanted. Since many of us publish in it, it might be interesting to see if it qualifies as a genre and what rules might apply. I'm talking about the email essay of course. Almost any post by Scott Parkin, Eric Samuelson or myself (not an exclusionary list, just pointing out some of those who tend to exemplify what I mean) tend to fall into this category. By which, I mean not just an email that is part of a discussion, but emails that try to communicate some thought or idea as completely as possible. They can be in response to another's email, but will typically be 75% (or better) the author's own words (as opposed to quoted text from the message being responded to). I don't know if I'm trying to elevate a trend to genre status or not. Personally, the time spent crafting many of my replies can best be measured in hours. I'll read through a proposed post several times for flow and clarity and sometimes I'll ask Melissa to read over it to make sure I'm making sense before sending it off. I'm hoping that I'm not the only one who does that because many of the list posts are more concise and better thought out than my own and I'd hate to think y'all are able to do that in a first draft. My thought is that anything that takes that kind of effort is a minor form of publishing and might bear some scrutiny to find common conventions and tools. I guess the question is, is it just email or is there something more there? My "Thoughts" section is exclusively composed of these email essays. I think they are structured differently than a typical essay, though, and I'm not quite sure why. I only know that certain things are more effective than others. Maybe a bit of a cross between essay and editorial column. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:57:36 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Don't most people think of Mormon missionaries as monks among men? Mormon = missionary life is certainly monastic not in social seclusion but in = ascetic simplicity and other ways. And I would even argue that because = missionaries are supposed to be so incredibly focused on baptizing people, = they lead a sort of monastacized social life, if that's possible. They = interact with people, but they must maintain tunnel vision and--ideally--no= t allow any non-missionary impulses to deflect their purpose (romantic, = career interests, hobbies, cultural interests except maybe on P-day). = Maybe that's one of the reasons the Church started a missionary community = service program, to lessen such pressures on missionaries. In the most = extreme cases of a certain kind of missionary zeal, people almost become = commodities rather than individuals, lumps of plastic to be shaped, or = bees--as at the Huntsville, Utah, monastary--to be managed into manmade = hives. In the Mormon missionary worldview, the mission boundaries are the = walls of a monastery and the local citizens are what the missionary-monks = expend their repetitive manual labor upon (doorknocking).=20 Regardless of the amount of talking to people and serving that missionaries= are supposed to do, the whole endeavor has a very monastic feel to it, a = feeling of seclusion and denial from the world. Right now, my missionary = memoir starts with a scene of missionary work on an island within = Australia, and the main character (me) feels a sort of vertigo from being = upon an island within an island. Later I develop that image into Mormonism = as feeling like an island and a mission as feeling like an island within = Mormonism. Maybe I'll have to develop that image into the memoir's title: = An Island within An Island: Memoirs of a Mormon Missionary. Chris Bigelow - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:16:07 -0600 From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:49:33PM -0600, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > If rated G really rocks like these people claim, why isn't Don Bluth > a household name? Titan AE (the last movie I know about from Don > Bluth) is an awesome movie. But my understanding is that it lost > money (again, who knows? But supposedly, Don Bluth has said he lost > money, though I can't remember where I read that--supposedly he'd > know). Your example does not fit your own criteria. _Titan A.E._ got a PG rating for action violence, mild sensuality, and brief language. - -- Terry L Jeffress | I write to find out what I'm talking | about. -- Edward Albee - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:20:12 -0600 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: [AML] RE: Medved's Arguments - ---Original Message From: Robert J Woolley > On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > lives more validity than they truly have in the "real" world. How > > else do you explain that *every* sympathetic fictional Hollywood U.S. > > President is a liberal? > > When you say, with emphasis, *every*, it is just begging for > counterexamples. I thought of two within about 10 seconds. > Harrison Ford in "Air Force One." Bill Pullman in "Independence Day." > > Do you think that these characters are not sympathetic? That > they are liberal? > > Or would you like to rethink your use of "*every*"? I haven't seen "Air Force One" so I probably shouldn't use "every" in any case. I'll say that with Independence Day, I didn't get a sense of politics at all. Not surprising for a movie that dealt with the aftermath of an alien invasion. Hard to be liberal or conservative when the White House was just blown up. Can't give handouts to homeless *or* corporations when both just became moot points. Movies I *have* seen with U.S. Presidents? "Dave", "Dick", "Wag the Dog", "Contact", and, um, I'm drawing a blank here. Truthfully, my comment was probably just an example of my continuing disgust with "Dave" and Barbara Streisand. Conservative actors find themselves dis-invited to Hollywood social functions (and their careers suffer accordingly) when they express their opinions in public and that irks me. How many of you can name *a* conservative actor, director or producer? I'll bet you can name more who are liberal than conservative by 3 to 1. My real point, though, is just that the stories that movies tell are skewed by the beliefs of those making them--essentially what we've been saying about LDS art. Frankly, come to think of it, my point goes better to show how Hollywood is motivated more my dollars than by ideology. Conservative ideology may be under-represented in the movies that are produced, but not by anywhere near the ratio that would be suggested by their under representation in the Hollywood population. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:21:01 -0600 From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments >John Williams: > >>Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit margins going on >>here. Eric Snider wrote: >I'm not sure how literally we are take the word "sinister" here. (I >mean, does he really mean everyone involved is left-handed?) No. Geez, no. In fact, if I had known what a tizzy the word "sinister" was going to provoke, I would have withheld. What I should have said was "complicated." And the little blurb on the ratings/profit inconsistencies was included merely to provide an example of Medved's arguments (since we were consistently referring to "Medved's argument" without mentioning anything specific), not to demonstrate the evil nature of everything hollywoodish, and NOT to say that every "R" rated movie is evil. I agree, Hollywood should not be understood as a monolithic entity, by which I mean there are all kinds of people there, motivated by all kinds of things. But my point was (and I think Medved would agree here) the dollar bill is not the bottom line for everyone there, but rather, one of several factors. If everyone in Hollywood were motivated ONLY by money, then the aforementioned statistics on ratings would certainly receive greater attention than they do. - --John. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 18:13:31 -0500 From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Moderator Musings on Misinterpretation At 09:07 PM 8/8/01, Jonathan Langford the AML-List Moderator wrote: >Folks, > >We have a pretty good discussion going right now, in my opinion. However, >over the last several days I've been noticing what looks like--from my >perspective (both as a reader and as the moderator)--some misinterpretation >of each other's positions, in several current threads on the list. [=85] > >So, some suggestions to keep the conversation going smoothly: > >[snip] And if those don't work, there's always the option of singing a hymn, such= as "Let Us Oft Speak Kind Words" (#232) "School Thy Feelings" (#336) "Should You Feel Inclined to Censure" (#235) ;-) - --Ronn! :) - --------------------------------------------------------- I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - --------------------------------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 18:02:46 -0500 From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons At 03:42 AM 8/9/01, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I never complained about an isolated Weyland story that presented one of >these conversions. It was the relentless pattern of story after story >where boy meets girl, and days later girl is taking missionary >discussions. The occurrence was never foreshadowed or justified by >circumstances or characterization. It just happened, as if this was how >things always happen, without comment. Having not read a lot (if any) of this type of fiction, I have a question: does Weyland (or someone else) ever write stories where it's a non-member guy who falls for a Mormon girl and converts, or is it always a male RM continuing his missionary work after returning home? If the latter, does anyone have any ideas why the other version is not used? - --Ronn! :) - --------------------------------------------------------- I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - --------------------------------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 19:21:50 -0600 From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Jonathan Langford wrote =20 It may be true, as this author suggests, that monasticism as such is simp= ly not much regarded in modern Western culture. But even looking at other modern religions, it strikes me that Mormonism is (for a combination of social and doctrinal reasons) perhaps the least accommodating to any kind of monastic life: i.e., a deliberately simplified life dedicated to religious devotion (narrowly considered), usually with some degree of separation from general society, often in seclusion or sharing associatio= n with member of a (non-familial) community. The closest I can come is in thinking about the life of some older members, stereotypically single sisters, who live close to the temple and dedicate as much of their time = as they can to working in the temple. ____________________________________________________________ =20 It seems to me our missionary program, more than fills the bill of the mo= nastic requirements of a Christian organization. God's Army portrayed thi= s very well, and depicted the monasticismness present in the church. Then= of course there are numerouse books about missionary experiences out the= re to draw from. =20 I'm not sure if these examples are monastic enough to fill the requiremen= ts of the average investigator, because our missionaries only serve for t= wo years as opposed to a life time. But there are many older missionary c= ouples who go on multiple missions after they retire, I would think this = would do the trick. The church sends out missionaries, on medical mission= s, church construction missions, welfare missions, teaching missions, and= all these missionaries devote their full time to the service of the Lord= . =20 Maybe someone needs to write a book which focuses entirely on all the dif= ferent types of missions being served through the church's great missiona= ry program. They could call it "Called to Serve" or Saints in His Service= " or something like that. Maybe it could be written as an anthology of mi= ssionary experiences, with a chapter or section on each type of missionar= y service the church offers. =20 Just adding my two cents worth. =20 Bill Willson - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #421 ******************************