From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #473 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Thursday, October 4 2001 Volume 01 : Number 473 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:44:58 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Lit Class for Enrichment Night At 11:40 AM 10/2/01 -0600, you wrote: >So if you had a captive audience of about thirty mostly older women for = >an hour, what would you tell them about literature? First you might want to talk to them about what literature is. Some may think the term refers only to those ponderous, boring, pretentious books people are forced to read in high school and college (the books Mark Twain referred to as the ones "everyone wants to have read, but nobody wants to read"). Then you might tell them some of the great stories from literature. If you're really mean, you can tell the stories up to exciting part and make them go read to find out what happened! You might talk to them about various tastes in literature and that one preference is not necessarily inferior to another. In other words, don't take an elitist approach. Once I did a thing on romance literature for a church group, and I played them a funny scene from a book on tape, done by a good reader. They said, "Hey, I didn't know these things were funny!" so I know I taught them at least something. barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:53:07 -0500 From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] Reasons for Evil (was: Religious Fundamentalism) The following has been sitting around in my inbox for a week, and I finally decided it either has to go or get an answer. Since deleting it takes me a second and then leaves me a half hour to read freshman essays, I decided to answer it. Paris Anderson wrote: > I may be right about this (I usually am) but I believe evil exists so that > good can exist. Awful, terrible, bad things happen so that wonderful, > charming, very good things can follow. Awful, terrible, bad things happened > to the Jews in WWII, but they were given a homeland soon afterward. We might say that God let Job's family be destroyed so he could give him a new one. I'm not certain that Job would have enjoyed looking at it that way, and I'm not certain that the new family was perfect compensation for the old one. I think it's a gross error to claim that awful things have to happen so that good things can happen. If the existence of good requires the existence of evil, I suggest that it's because the two are eternally coexistent and that morality isn't possible if evil choices are precluded. It doesn't require that evil choices actually be made, but only that we can make them if we wish. If the world had wanted them to have it, the Jews could have had their homeland without the Holocaust. The Holocaust was necessary to the creation of Israel only because it takes spectacular guilt to induce acceptance of dangerous policy with little apparent near-term benefit for the policy maker. But that's only because politicians aren't often selfless, not because good has to be paid for with blood out of some eternal principle. I suspect that evil and suffering must exist in the world for the same reason conflict must exist in a novel - without it, nothing interesting happens. A novel filled with predestined characters doing predestined things might seem a bit flat. Why does the little girl run away - because she's frightened, because she hopes to see her grandfather, because she wants to catch her runaway cat? No, because she's predestined to do so, has no say in the act, and what she thinks doesn't really enter into it. How dreary, unless you like reading _Oedipus_ over and over again. I can't do a great and wonderful thing if I don't have any choices, nor can I do evil - I just act my part. As a Mormon I don't believe in the infernal engine, so I don't believe evil _must_ be realized. I only believe that it _can_ be, and that's why I can be moved by accounts of heroism and virtue. And that's why I don't need there to be any death or mayhem in the story for it to ring true or be moving. > A terrible thing happened on September 11, but something good will come out > of it. Perhaps, though that doesn't have to be the case, and there's no telling that the good will outweigh the bad. We just hope that it will. In God's grand plan and his own time all bad can be turned to good, but I'm sure he'd have been happy to see the story run otherwise, the people seeing their sins and resolving to do better without ever suffering the smiting - Ninevah managed it, afterall. Jim Picht - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:59:28 -0700 (PDT) From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Emmeline Wells (was: Lit Class for Enrichment Night) - --- Amy Chamberlain wrote: > Hi, all. I'm wondering if any of you can help; I've been asked to teach > = > an Enrichment class on "Learning to Love Literature." This topic is so = > wide-open that nothing brilliant has hit me yet.=20 > > So if you had a captive audience of about thirty mostly older women for > = > an hour, what would you tell them about literature? I would especially = > like to talk about the great LDS writers out there (I've been playing = > around with a title like "Beyond The Work and the Glory," but that's as > = > far as I've gotten.) I'm incredibly jealous. I've always wanted to do a Relief Society Enrichment Night (or for that matter a Priesthood Enrichment Night) that was a lecture/poetry reading based on the life and works of Emmeline Wells. I've even toyed with the idea of extending it into a dramatic performance based on her letters and poetry, kind of a hybrid lecture/drama. With me doing narration and analysis of the poetry and actors reading her poetry/letters and even acting out some events from her life. So I guess what I'm saying is that I vote for including Emmeline Wells - --EXCEPT-- I don't think that her work is currently in print. Her poetry is beautiful, intimate, and sometimes heart-breaking. While I have become an Orson F. Whitney fan, I find her work touches me more because it's more personal. And I like that in a poet. Whitney is too didactic although I still think that he has some interesting stuff. I suppose one could call her a bit of a sentamentalist, but most home literature was either sentimental or didactic. Hers is some of the best. And her life... She was a strong woman---a suffragist, the (3rd, 4th?) Relief Society General President, and a fabulous writer. But she also struggled with things like the loss of children, the concept of polygamy, the roughness of life in the West, etc. This is probably not what you had in mind. It would probably be better and easier to focus on more current works. I'm just saying my appreciation for Mormon Literature was increased by reading Well's volume of poetry _Musings and Memories_. I suppose this doesn't help with the question of how you should approach things philisophically, but I've been waiting for an excuse to hype some interest in Emmeline B. Wells. NOTE: For a decent biographical sketch on Wells see: http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/w/WELLS,EMMELINE.html ~~William Morris [MOD: By all means, let's have a discussion of Emmeline, then!] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 15:07:34 -0400 From: Tony Markham Subject: [AML] John D. LEE, _Mormonism Unveiled_ Someone mentioned saving an early LDS novel from a library 0.25 sale. I also grabbed up a couple of goodies once as the University of Arkansas was clearing out its basement. One that seems of interest to the current discussion is John D. Lee's _Mormonism Unveiled_. It has an 1891 publication date, all the color plates are intact and in excellent condition, but is marred by the ugly library tape they put on the spine and a few other library id stamps. I thought it would be worth a quarter. Some years later when I was in desperate financial straits I called Sam Weller's bookstore and was hoping for a decent offer but they said it was only worth about $5. Not enough to cover postage. I kept it. I found it to be much more engaging than _The Giant Joshua_ whose prose was so turgid it put me to sleep. Tony Markham - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 14:06:01 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Paul BAILEY, _For Time and All Eternity_ Linda Adams wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone ever heard of a fiction work by the title _For Time and All > Eternity,_ by Paul Bailey? I "rescued" this 400-page volume from the public > library's 25-cent book sale. Published in 1964 by Doubleday, it states in a > facing page that "It is an attempt to portray with truth and fidelity the > great Mormon anti-polygamy crusade of the 1880s, but, with the exception of > a few actual historical personage, all characters in this book are entirely > imaginary and fictitious." It's dedicated "To my grandmothers... who lived > their lifetimes in the 'Principle'..." > > Sounded scary enough I felt I ought to spring for the quarter and save it > from the hands of unknowing Gentiles. :-) Doesn't look to be well-read. > However, I have no intention of reading it myself unless I'm thoroughly > convinced otherwise by List members that it's one not to miss. Anybody want > it? I can ship it out book rate if you cover shipping. > Anything by Paul Baily is worth reading. He is one of the unsung heroes of Mormon literature. He has written fiction and non-fiction about Mormons, always objectively, I might add. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 14:14:26 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Last Days Lit (was: _Left Behind_) Barbara Hume wrote: > At 05:33 PM 10/1/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I would like to see a gripping page-turner of a story that assumes an > >eschatology distinct from that of evangelical Christianity. > > The Left Behind books must be gripping page-turners, since they sell so > well. I've read them all, though I've gotten them from the library--didn't > like them well enough to buy them, but want to know what happens next! > > Tyler, what are a few major points where you think an LDS novel based on > the last days would differ from a novel written by an evangelical Christian? First of all, there would be nothing about a rapture, because Mormons don't teach that. Secondly, the Anti-Christ is not a single person, but more symbolic of an attitude prevelant in the last days. The Prophet would have to pay an integral part in the events since he is to turn over the keys to Christ at the Adam Ondi-ahman. The Left Behind books may be interesting but are so far off what Mormons teach that I'm surprised so many LDS even find them worth their time. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:40:39 -0700 From: jltyner@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: [AML] Re: LDS Last Days Lit Wow, I think Tyler has brought up an interesting topic and sort of issued a challenge-How to write an interesting and engaging book or books about the Last Days. Our Moderator also asked for comments about the challenges of researching books for the fiction market. My thoughts are this: Whether such books would be in the fiction or non-fiction category the research would or should be as extensive and accurate as possible. With a theme like the Last Days that would be difficult. You would obviously use the Scriptures and Writings from Modern Prophets and other General Authorities and sift through other sources of commentary on the topic. Here's the rub: some of it is very subjective and some of the comments of GA's would be considered the last word and etched in stone on the matter. Whoever takes this challenge on should be prepared that they may elict more than the average amount of criticism from many sides. Even if the setting/people/place in these books were deliberately fictional I would hope the author would make it clear in a introduction or opening pages that some of this is the author's conjecture and opinion on the matter. I would hope this for fiction in general, especially historical novels/fiction genre. I know it would seem obvious that most people have sense enough to know that an author can take a lot of artistic license in their fictional works, but you'd be surprised how many people young and old I've talked to who take docudramas and historical fiction as fact because they've never bothered to think about it or look into it themselves, they trust the author/writer to only tell them the truth or their version of the truth anyway. Anyone up to the challenge? Kathy Tyner - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 15:44:07 -0600 From: "Tory C. Anderson" Subject: Re: [AML] WHIPPLE, _The Giant Joshua_ I think Whipple's _Giant Joshua_ is a wonderful book. Did it make me uncomfortable at times while reading it? Yes. Does she seem off on some of her portrayals of Mormon doctrine? Yes. Did I find the ending a little disappointing? Yes. But do I think _Giant Joshua_ is one of the very few novels (count fewer than the fingers on one hand) that can be called great, and did I love the book? Yes, YEs, YES! While being aware of the character Clorinda's faults and frailties, I named my first daughter (who is now five-years-old) Clorinda. I feel that Maureen, in spite of any doctrinal or historical mistakes in the book, wrote very honestly. Her end result in _Giant Joshua_ was honest if not accurate. I feel that many of today's Mormon novels are more accurate than they are honest. But putting aside accuracy and honesty, I have to agree with an earlier poster that _Giant Joshua_ was a dang good read. I visited St. George for the first time after I had read the book and I saw a richness there that I never would have seen without the book. Tory Anderson - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:02:25 -0600 From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Elizabeth MOON, _The Deed of Paksenarrion_ "I confess, I like Paks even better than Elizabeth Bennett!" Speaking as a lover of Jane Austen--if this is possible, then I've *got* to read this series! Annette Lyon - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:04:56 -0600 From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Cornerstone Contact Info I've been trying to contact Richard Hopkins of Cornerstone Publishing, but both e-mail addresses I had didn't work. Does anyone know how to reach him? Annette Lyon - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 16:31:09 -0500 From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Paul BAILEY, _For Time and All Eternity_ Hi, I've had two offers for the book already, so I can't accept any others. Thanks! Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:19:30 -0500 From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Last Days Lit (was: _Left Behind_) I often describe my book to non-members as "similar to the _Left Behind_ series, but with a Mormon/LDS worldview." The non-LDS people I know who have read my book (_Prodigal Journey_) have responded to it as enthusiastically as members have, so I know that it does appeal to both markets, though currently it's only sold through LDS outlets. Cornerstone's long-range goal is to bring it to the national market. My question in this post might be moot from Tyler's POV (since he's hoping to acquire something for Covenant, and I'm already working with Cornerstone), but of those of you who have read _Prodigal Journey,_ I'd like to know how well you feel my book fits within his hoped-for expectations: >I too would like to see a book/series set in the context of what we do and >don't expect of the last days from a particularly LDS POV. > >I would like to see that the author has done her/his homework to become >familiar with what has been said on the subject--both from established and >speculative sources, and that they recognize the difference. > >I would like to see a gripping page-turner of a story that assumes an >eschatology distinct from that of evangelical Christianity. > >I would like to see a faithful tale that wouldn't alienate the market with >gratuitous inclusions (I imagine I'll hear objections from Thom and others >on this, so I'm ready), but which could still speak to a broad >audience--something I would read even if I weren't being paid for it. > >And I would love to see all of this expertly woven together in brilliant, >artistic, gifted, masterful prose. > > I'd _like_ to argue that I've already done all this. Grin. But I won't be that vain. The book can speak for itself whether I managed it or not. If I haven't, I'll keep trying. (And no, Vol. 2 is not out yet, but should be finishing up soon, provided I can stop being a slug and get a move on it.) On a side note, I'm happy to see Tyler use the word "eschatology." It's a cool word meaning "the study of the end times," or Last Days. (Makes you sound real smart when you throw it into casual conversation, better even than "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.") One of the difficulties I encounter in my research and study for this series is that as Latter-day Saints, we have a far more flexible eschatology, with much more room for variables, and more openness to alternate ways scriptural prophesy could possibly be fulfilled. From what I understand, the events presented in the _Left Behind_ series are as evangelical Christianity believes them to be, in EXACT order, without variation. The method of the "Rapture" may vary from what _Left Behind_ presents; but the chronology, sequence, and even duration of each end-time event is very set and specific in their eschatology. That almost makes it easy for the writers of that series: they only have to imagine the "how." Everything else is spelled out to the letter. I, however, have to come up with everything nearly from scratch. (Personally, I find much flexibility when I read the revelations and prophecies about future events, and am curious where they came up with this particular sequence. Nevermind that we've added a whole slew of _other_ events they're not even aware of: the Restoration itself for one, the council at Adam-ondi-Ahman, the return of the City of Enoch, for others.) When I set out to plan the first (and now, future) volume(s) of my series on the Last Days, focusing on the establishment of Zion on the American Continent, I found there are infinite possibilities available for fiction. The lovely thing is that each one of us could write a fictional Last Days series, using the same scriptures and references, each story would be completely and radically different from the next, and no one of them would necessarily be "wrong" in any way. At one booksigning, I was asked whether my book was "true." With a smile I explained that there were so many possibilities, and since I didn't know the future more than anyone else, it couldn't be "true." It's a story. A fun one to write, and I hope exciting for others to read. But still only a story. (I would literally freak out if any events I wrote about actually _happened_ the way I wrote them.) But there is also that: Latter-day Saints tend to have a near-compulsion to want EVERY-thing in life to be as true as the Restored Gospel itself. That's another issue that has to be conquered in _any_ LDS Last Days series. (For an example I cite how many Mormons tend to think Lund's fictional Steed family were real people... As a group we are particularly gullible to take historical Church fiction as truth.) I explain that my series is like an "alternate history," or "parallel universe," in the hope to avoid this sort of confusion. I've been asked, for the second book, to provide with it a sort of scriptural "index" giving the references I used to come up with my fictional plot points. Probably a good idea, as long as nobody thinks those are the _only_ possible interpretations. Well: gotta run make dinner. I should've been typing my next chapter instead of typing this... Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:53:36 -0600 From: luannstaheli Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Killed Eric, Thanks for clarifying. This was a story I had heard on KSL-TV as I recall. Lu Ann "Eric D. Snider" wrote: > >[MOD: Can someone confirm this from an official source? Also, I find it > >interesting that several List members have written in with different > >information about who was/was not killed. Anyone care to make a connection > >with the challenges of doing the research needed for accurate fiction?] > > > >There were twelve family members from Springville, UT, also killed. I believe > >they were LDS. > > This story is highly suspect at this point. The Daily Herald was > contacted about it, and we've been unable to reach the surviving man > whose family allegedly was killed. The convenience store that's > collecting donations for him refused to give his current whereabouts, > and said only that he used to work there but wouldn't say whether he > still did. Our reporter wasn't able to get much further with it than > that, and we dropped it. We heard of other news outlets (print and > broadcast) also dropping the story over the course of a few days, so > I think they may have been similarly suspicious. > > Eric D. Snider - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:57:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] re: Juanita Brooks Query - --- jltyner@postoffice.pacbell.net wrote: > We've had a string > of postings and inquiries about Juanita Brooks and a > question about her possibly destroying incriminating > information about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. > The only thing we based all this on was an unsubstantiated > accusation in an unflattering article that cited no footnote or > source! (snip) > Back to Juanita Brooks-It seems to me the initial inquiry about her > was willing to believe that she would be capable of doing such a > thing as destroying valuable evidence based on such a vague > accusation when everything about her and the struggle she went > through to get that book published should have leaned more to > the belief that she would do no such thing. In other words, she > deserved the benefit of the doubt based on the integrity she > showed all her professional and personal life. The burden of > proving such an assertion should be with the author of the article > cited! > Has anybody bothered to contact the author and inquire about their > source? We of all people should harbor a certain suspicion about > such things. There have been cases where someone was a so-called > "expert" on the Mormon Church and made the rounds on the Anti-Mormon > lecture circuit until someone bothered to look into their credentials > and expose > them and their credentials as fraudulent. Same thing goes for certain > "Faith- > promoting" stories that have gone around the Church and later are found > to untrue and are added to "The Mormon Myth" file. I guess those are > our > versions of "Urban Legends" some of which get spread around the Church > as well. I hope this adds something to the conversation. > Kathy Tyner (1) The initial inquirer (which was me) was not willing to believe this story was true and said so. In case there is any further misunderstanding. I DO NOT BELIEVE JUANITA BROOKS DESTROYED DOCUMENTS. The purpose of my posting was to nail down the origin of this particular story. Thanks to Morgan Adair for getting to what is apparently the right source. (2) I have written to the author of the article, care of "American Heritage" magazine, questioning the story and asking what the source is. We shall see if I get a reply. (3) I do not believe it is spreading "urban legends" or "anti-Mormon rumors" to try to ascertain over the internet the truth or falsity of a story. Isn't that what the net is for, ideally: to find the truth? ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 00:39:40 -0600 From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: RE: [AML] The List and the WTC [MOD: We've had an interesting discussion here, but I think it's time to move on. I think I'll let Scott have the last say here on this question of whether and when war is justified, unless someone comes up with a new, more explicitly literary tie-in.] Jacob Proffitt wrote: >---Original Message From: Scott Parkin > > And I do want to point out that the reason the Anti-Nephi-Lehis were > > able to convert and repent was because at least one faction of the > > Nephites chose not to fight, deciding to give their own lives rather > > than take the lives of their enemies. I do not and will not accept > > that urging restraint is somehow wrong in this or any other case. > >No. Those who allowed themselves to be meekly slaughtered were a group >of Lamanites who had been converted by Aaron and his brothers. They >took the oath not to take up arms and were slaughtered (1,005 died) by >their fellow Lamanites who weren't converted who then converted after >all (more than had been slain). The combined group then left their >lands and went to the Nephites rather than die at the hands of Lamanites >so hardened that even the unresisted slaughter wouldn't stop them from >wiping out all the Lamanites who had converted. *All* of the pacifists >in the Book of Mormon are Lamanites who took the oath not to take up >arms ever again. The Nephite anti-war efforts were the Kingmen who took >up arms to overthrow the government at home. I stand corrected. But the point remains that among those converted to the gospel were both those who believed in fighting war and those who didn't (I was also working under the idea that once converted, the Lamanites became Nephites). The gospel unified people despite national heritage and fundamentally different desires with regard to individual response to war. The Nephite war against the Lamanites was justified (as I believe war against Bin Laden, the Taliban, and other terrorist groups is justified). But given that justification, members of the church could have very, very different views on what the best response to war was. That was my only real point. > > Here is where the context changes for me. When I talk about > > literature, I mean all of it--not just the stuff written for or about > > the coming war. We will see a great deal of what I would consider > > propaganda during the course of the war, and it serves the purpose > > for which it was created. > > > > But the other stuff, the literature written because someone felt a > > need to tell a story--be it about war, peace, slavery, mercy, grace, > > fishing, baseball, love, money, or corruption--the stuff told out of > > a desire to understand some idea or thing that was not chosen to fit > > a wartime agenda, is what I prefer to read and hopefully create. > >My point is that in the event of a war, even this so-called >non-propaganda literature is connected to the war. There is no such >thing as non-propaganda wartime literature. You can't do it. The very >effort to leave out the war becomes affected by the war. War is too big >to leave art independent. Any art that tries will be subsumed by that >effort. I thought about that after sending the previous post. It's quite arguable that all literature is connected either to war or to the peace between wars, but then again so is everything else, including art, culture, music, and entertainment. I understand your point, but I still believe that we need to tell the stories we need to tell if for no other reason than the enrichment of our own souls and the communication of our ideas to others. If they're all toadies to war, so be it. I've argued before that all literature is propaganda to some cause, so I guess the argument that all literature is a response to war or its lack is fair, though I think incomplete. Still, given the choice of fighting our wars in story and fighting them in fact, I would rather literature was the chosen battlefield. >You cannot be disconnected from a war just because you feel like it. >When you rage against an enemy or sorrow at the poignancy of loss, you >are a part of what is firing the shots even though you personally might >be disconnected from it and your story doesn't mention anything about >it. Unless you choose not to fight the war at all. Unless you choose to fight it metaphorically in story instead of literally on the battlefield. >Personally, I've decided I'd rather kill than allow someone to kill >my family (and that includes letting them kill me). If someone messes with my family, all bets are off. If it's just between me and them, right now I'd rather die than kill. Different responses. I think each is justified in its own way. >Our discussion is about >ideologies, though, and when it is right to fight as one people against >another and what that means to our literature. For me this whole discussion has been about the rights that individuals have to believe differently but with equal righteousness. It appears we're arguing different points. >Wars aren't about >justice and that they shouldn't be about vengeance, and they don't >really have much to do with what decisions individuals might make for >themselves. Then why fight the war? The only reason I can see to fight is to either punish (vengeance) or to eliminate the ability of evil people to harm us (justice). Either of these is justified, though the search for justice is more correct in my mind. To me the decisions of individuals is what starts the war, what determines how it will progress, and what eventually ends the war. It is by our personal decisions that we will be judged at the last day. If the decisions of those individuals don't matter, what is our purpose in being here? Scott Parkin - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 01:19:04 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Last Days Lit (was: _Left Behind_) In my youth, oh about a gazillion years ago, I was fascinated by the last days. Everyone around me said I'd probably live to see the Second Coming, which for sure would mean I'd live through all the events of the last days. These books coming out about them, whether generally Christian or specifically LDS, would have fascinated me. But these days, I just don't seem to get worked up about the books. I'm trying to figure out why. Is it perhaps because I'm not so sure I'll live to see the Second Coming after all? Am I just one more generation out of many who thought the Millennium was imminent, but it appears the Lord is still "delaying the day of his coming"? Or is it because I seem to be living a number of those prophesies today, so it isn't some exotic, captivating science fictional future anymore? Or maybe it's because I've heard so many goofball predictions of what's going to happen which now seem absurd, that I just don't have much interest in hearing any more? There just isn't enough information available to make any truly educated guess about how this or that prophecy will be fulfilled. I'm just quietly waiting to see how things really unfold. Or maybe I'm too old to be fascinated by such glitzy topics anymore. They've run their course--they've exhausted their potential for me. But I'm sure there are still lots of younger folk out there, still enamored of glitz and the idea of living until the Second Coming, who will keep such books alive and selling. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 10:17:56 -0600 From: margaret young Subject: [AML] _I Am Jane_ Performance Reminder--we're showing _I Am Jane_ Thursday Oct. 4 at 7:30 p.m. and Friday Oct. 5 at 4:00 and 7:30 p.m. in the Fort Union Stake Center in Midvale. Address: 540 E. 7200 S. (behind a new fire station). If you know anyone who'd be interested in coming, please tell them about it! I have no idea if we'll get an audience at all. Because we lost the facility we were scheduled to use and had only 13 days to find a new place and get publicity out (as well as re-stage the show), we've been in a bit of a bind. So any help you could give would be great! [Margaret Young] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:55:36 GMT From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Last Days Lit (was: _Left Behind_) Thom writes: The Left Behind books may be interesting but are so far off what Mormons teach that I'm surprised so many LDS even find them worth their time. Of course, the problem with LDS apocalyptic is that we share a lot of LORE, such as the supposed reinstatement of polygamy, our particular imaginings of what the United Order will be, our personalized versions of wars, destructions, plagues and so on--stuff like that--but so far as I know, there's not a great deal that's specific from our modern prophets on what will actually happen. In my 25-year-long education on the last days :), I was exposed to MANY slightly LDS viewpoints on the subject. I've read one of Pam Blackwell's books, but found that her point of view again is based on popular lore. (Lots of errors and not-great writing as well, though I admire her effort). So . . .if we try such novels, what DO we put in? Personally, I'm less interested in destruction, gloom and doom, and more interested in how God will create a new thing--Zion. We have hints but nothing specific in what THAT will look like. Cathy Wilson - --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:53:24 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Danites (was: Juanita Brooks Query) On Tue, 02 Oct 2001 11:17:45 Morgan Adair writes, replying to R. W. Rasband's query about the charge that Juanita Brooks destroyed evidence about the Mountain Meadows Massacre: > I asked historian (and author of a forthcoming book about Mountain > Meadows) Will Bagley about this and he said that the charge against > Brooks was made by Bart Anderson and was first printed in Jay > Shelledy's editor's column in the SL Tribune in March 2000. He also > said that he doesn't know a single historian or > anyone that knew Brooks who believes it. > > MBA Bagley was the guest on KUER's Radio West this morning, Oct. 3, talking about the Danites. Had some interesting things to say about violence in early Utah and blood atonement. He feels there's irrefutable historical evidence for some accounts of blood atonement, but that violence is often a part of new religious movements, and the violence in frontier Utah doesn't have negative implications for the present-day Church any more than the Inquisition has negative implications for present-day Catholics. The show will be rebroadcast at 7 p.m. (KUER is the UofU's public radio station, 90.1 FM, www.kuer.org), and is probably in their audio archives. I haven't visited their site in a long time. Harlow Clark (who just heard Utah Atty Genl on "Talk of the Nation" talking about the angry reaction to his demanding an apology from Northwest Airlines for kicking some Arab-Americans off one of its flights. I'm proud of him.) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 13:52:12 -0600 From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Last Days Lit (was: _Left Behind_) Yes, Thom, they are doctrinally off the mark a lot, but they are adventurous, fun, and get me studying Revelations too see what *my* take is on the subject. I thoroughly enjoy the series and can't wait for the next book to come out. just like I can't wait for the Harry Potter movie & next book. May not reflect my vision of how the world is & will be, but, darn it all, they're fun! Marianne Who is looking forward to reading the next Dean hughes book series too - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #473 ******************************