From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #525 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Friday, November 23 2001 Volume 01 : Number 525 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:35:52 -0800 From: "Richard Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Tasteful Ellipses D. Michael Martindale wrote: > Ultimately, my standard is, is it true? [snip] To further clarify my standard, D. Michael is completely correct in saying that the standard I propose is fulfilled in his standard. With the standard I suggested, I'm hoping to get a little more specific than simply that it's true. It's hard for me to apply that standard clearly in every situation because it's stated very broadly. But the standard I suggest is also very broad--enough so that I'm afraid it may not be clear. It is not that the story must resolve in a good way. It is not that good must receive its due reward and evil its just punishment. It is that good is not portrayed in a way that would lead the reader to believe that it is actually evil, and evil is not portrayed in a way that would lead the reader to believe that it is good. This is being true, as D. Michael suggests. Contrary to what Thom said, I think what is good and what is evil is fairly clear (though I think it's fun in fiction to play with the line between the two). It is given unto all men to know good from evil. So I think we really know the difference, especially as authors. This standard would NOT, for example, eliminate Midnight Cowboy because, though the behavior was degrading *to the characters*, it was clear to the viewer that it was, in fact, degrading behavior, something evil to be avoided. The author did not try to make the degrading behavior look as though it was good or had a positive impact on the characters. It was accurate in portraying reality, where evil is evil and good is good. It would, however, eliminate the movie Natural Born Killers (among others), and most PG-13 movies that try to convince youth it's good to jump into bed with anyone you "love." See where I'm going with this? What think ye? Richard Hopkins - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:46:10 -0800 From: "Richard Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Point of View Linda Adams wrote: > I find it interesting that Richard Hopkins (my editor/publisher) brought up > this topic, because he was a _complete_ stickler with me on POV while > editing _Prodigal Journey,_ often finding violations I had missed after > several rewrites and asking for certain changes to preserve continuity. > (Changing your mind, Richard? Don't.) Don't worry, I'm not going soft on you, Linda. I'm exploring a range and hoping that by discussing this topic we can all improve our writing. What I have noticed, and why I felt so strongly about POV for Linda's first novel, has been mentioned by one of the commenters on this subject. The more you stay in a character's head, the more you are drawn into that character's world. That, ultimately, is what books can do that no other medium can accomplish as well. That's why I, personally, think it is so important in most novels to follow the POV rules so carefully. That said, I have noticed that, in some scenes in my own work, the point is not to be drawn into the scene, but to learn some things or to "watch" something from a more universal perspective. What I'd like to know is any advice writers have in this group about how to tell the difference and when to use the more cinematic style, if at all, while not damaging the story. Let me get specific. I'm editing a World War II story right now that has a terrific love story and a lot of exciting combat scenes. The writer is very skillful at presenting the combat scenes cinematically. She accomplishes this sometimes by jumping from one POV to another and sometimes by taking a universal POV. The transitions are flawless, but they are POV violations. I don't think enforcement of strict POV rules during those scenes will help this kind of writing. Am I out to lunch? Richard Hopkins - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:04:47 -0700 From: "K.D. Enos" Subject: Re: [AML] Point of View Until I read this post I didn't realize that I had a scene in one of the stories I'm working on that bounces between two characters. Most of the time I'm in the lead ladys head but for a few sentences I'm in the lead man's head. I probably better find another way to do that scene. Konnie Enos - ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda Adams > I find it interesting that Richard Hopkins (my editor/publisher) brought up > this topic, because he was a _complete_ stickler with me on POV while > editing _Prodigal Journey,_ often finding violations I had missed after > several rewrites and asking for certain changes to preserve continuity. > (Changing your mind, Richard? Don't.) [snip] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:28:00 -0700 From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Short Stories Wanted I'm forwarding this to the list. Permission to do so is granted in the text itself - -------- Original Message -------- Hello. I'm hoping you have a minute to help me. I'm collecting short stories to publish. Acceptable genres include mystery, suspense, romance, western, horror, humor, science fiction, fantasy and folk/fairy tales. Personal essays are also acceptable, provided they are based on true accounts and they motivate, amaze, inspire or boggle the mind. The publication is intended for a general audience, so please keep the stories clean--no graphic language, sex or violence. Story length must fall between 1,700 to 2,200 words. Writers will receive a byline and a royalty upon publication. One catch or two: I'm interested in writers who can produce multiple quality stories, so please submit 2 to 3 stories initially. Also, I won't be accepting electronic submissions or queries. If you have a few stories that you would like me to consider, please send them to Steve Hansen, P.O. Box 543, Pleasant Grove, UT 84062; I?m very anxious to read them. You will hear from me if your stories are being considered for publication or if you send me a SASE or email address. If you are not a writer but know someone who is, please forward this message to her or him. A million thanks for your time. Steve Hansen P.O. Box 543 Pleasant Grove, UT 84062 - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:41:32 -0700 From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: [AML] YOUNG & GRAY, _One More River to Cross_ (Review) Young, Margaret and Darius Gray: Standing on the Promises, Book 1: One More River to Cross, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, 2000, 330pp, bibliography. $19.95. I have looked forward to reading this book for some time. The stories of early African-American pioneers are an important part of the history of the Church, and have been neglected far too long. For that matter, the stories of Native Americans, Hispanics, Orientals, etc. are just about unknown. This is too bad. Margaret Young and Darius Gray have done an outstanding job of acquainting us with a group of black Saints including Elijah Abel, Jane Elizabeth Manning, Isaac James, Samuel Chambers, Green Flake, Hark Lay, Oscar Crosby and others. While I had at least heard of Flake, Lay and Abel, the rest were new to me, and I found this both exciting and disturbing as I thought I knew something of Church history. Accordingly, I looked for Brother Abel in the index of Robert's history, and the Story of the Latter-day Saints for entries and found nothing, and I wonder why? Having been born and raised in Baltimore, I was fascinated to learn that Elijah lived in Maryland too. The story of the Manning family in Connecticut is interesting, and makes me reflect that the condition of Blacks in the North were often quite similar to that of those in the South, with the notable exception that those in North were free to move and seek their own employment. I refer more to the economic situation. The bibliography provided gave me lots of areas for further study. While I enjoyed the book very much, and look forward to future volumes, there are a number of things that bothered me. Perhaps this is minor, but the story is being told by someone, but I was never able to figure out who is doing the telling. I wish the characters were more fully developed. I got to know a lot ABOUT the individuals, but never felt like I got to KNOW them. Maybe that feeling will be resolved in the works which follow. Parts of the book seemed forced or contrived. For instance Elder Merkley tells Elijah a story about a confrontation he has with horsemen. It's a great story, but didn't seem to fit, or at least not to flow well into the story line. The thing that I find most disturbing are the chapter end notes. I LIKE chapter end notes, particulary in works of historical fiction, but these bothered me. I would prefer the author simple present the source and/or a little of the background, but to repeat, almost verbatim, the story that I have just read is, to me, very tedious. With that said, please buy or borrow this book. It is a must read. Roy Schmidt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:15:34 -0700 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Eternal Feminine in Lit The idea Man cannot be saved without Woman and that Woman embodies divinity here on earth. Also, woman cannot be saved without the man. The man draws me upward and embodies divinity. I'm a crusty old toothless hag, and needed man to bear me up. Marilyn Brown (grin) - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:46:04 -0700 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Tasteful Ellipses YESSSS! Though a questionable honor, Eric, it certainly does take some of the sssting out of those rejections in which you and I (and others) have been wallowing for the past lifetime--creating those pieces of art which are too "wild" for Mormon audiences, yet much too "Mormon" for the world. You deserve kudos--for your CREATIVITY! And a I send those kudos!! Plus . . . . If you don't think there's a problem, my dear AML friends, The NEW YORKER printed an article in this last week's issue that made me laugh out loud! The name of the article is YOU CAN'T SAY THAT, and it's about censorship in broadcasting (supposedly done by the Standards and Practices Board). And I quote. "Even if only three per cent of a show's audience gets upset by a particular word or image, that's still a population the size of Salt Lake city that's up in arms. (In fact, it usually is Salt Lake City.) Now, this is so GREAT! Like Eric's award, we are FINALLY MAKING A SPOT FOR OURSELVES ON THE MAP! HOORAY! Marilyn Brown - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:48:24 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Point of View Thom Duncan wrote: > Agreed. Here's a way, however, to insert a quasi-POV into the other > characters head without breaking the original POV: "Jack wondered, as > he kissed Abigail, if she thought it was as exciting as he did." Absolutely. I do that all the time. And it's not a POV violation. Your POV character can interpret and guess and imagine and wonder at other characters' thoughts and feelings to the author's heart's content. It's not a POV violation, because it's still the POV character's thoughts. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:34:28 -0700 From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Eternal Feminine in Lit Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > women? And how would the Romance genre fit into your analysis? As far > > as I can tell, the single greatest specifically LDS audience is LDS > > women buying Romance novels. Rachel Nunes and Sharlee Glenn(?) could be > > useful reads here. Huh? I've never read an LDS romance novel, let alone written one. Sharlee Glenn(?) glennsj@inet-1.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #525 ******************************