From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #590 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, January 28 2002 Volume 01 : Number 590 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:10:34 -0500 From: "Amelia Parkin" Subject: Re: [AML] Garbled Sayings For inspiration you could read the "Rachel" sections of Barbara Kingsolver's novel _The Poisonwood Bible_. Her character Rachel Price spends her entire lifetime spouting such malapropisms and they can be hilarious. And if you're in for a wonderful and poignant read, read the whole book. amelia parkin - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:52:54 -0500 From: "robert lauer" Subject: [AML] Hymn Singing (was: Life in Mormon Culture) On LDS culture, Tony Markham wrote: >Our culture reflects the same priorities. We're filled with truth and >light, but Boring! In the last year and half I noticed something that I think is related to this: that is, THE WAY WE SING HYMNS IN MEETINGS!!!!! Good grief! I thought it was just my ward, but in the last three years I've changed wards three times due to working in various parts of the countries. It's universal in the Church: we think slow and plodding is reverent!!!! Now I've had vocal training. I've made a living performing in musical theatre. I have a pretty good range and I have vocal stamina; but, Holy Moses!!!!! I can't sing two measures on Sunday morning without nearly fainting in the pew! The songs are sung SO DARN SLOWLY! An Anglican friend of mine once referred to Episcopalians as "God's Frozen People." Musically, I think Mormons are well on there way to claiming that title for themselves. Musically we are the biggest bunch of BORES on the planet! I've spoken to investigators and recent converts and the majority of them agree that music in meetings is PAINFUL!!! And we're the Church with the world's most famous choir! How ironic is that? How does poor Gladys Knight stand it on Sundays? To go from a religious tradition with such passionate music (Gospel and Black Spirituals) to a tradition in which the members are musically atrophied must be Hell for the poor woman! Okay. Now I've vented. I'll take a few deep breaths. I should be fine in just a minute. ROB. LAUER _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:07:30 -0700 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Ayn RAND, _Atlas Shrugged_ - ---Original Message From: harlowclark@juno.com [snip] > Based on what I've heard in this discussion I don't think > Rand would like Benjamin's ideas. Rob Lauer may have a > different take on her possible attitude toward Benjamin, but > if Andrew Hall's 18 Jan 2002 comment accurately reflects her > ideas, I suspect she would likely consider him foolish, maybe > dangerous. There are two modifiers that are important to King Benjamin that are often overlooked that are particularly significant in relation to Ayn Rand. The first is an emphasis that Ayn Rand would agree with. King Benjamin's exhortation not to withhold your substance when it is requested has an important modifier. King Benjamin's story has as its basis that without your aid, the petitioner will die. Each time the beggar is mentioned, his request for sustenance is accompanied by "that he die not." This is a metric that Ayn Rand is more than willing to support--human life being so important to her. Condemning a stranger to death when you can save him with a little self-sacrifice is a sin and one that King Benjamin makes very clear is a serious one. The parallel is particularly striking when he compares that situation to that of God--who saves us when we request saving from eternal death even though it requires such a large sacrifice by Him. The second important modifier is probably the biggest way that Ayn Rand departs from King Benjamin. King Benjamin tells us that a large part of sin is that we judge the petitioner. Ayn Rand, on the other hand, is perfectly comfortable with judging others and, indeed, encourages it. I doubt that Ayn Rand would consider King Benjamin dangerous, but I'm pretty sure she'd consider him foolish. Actions inspired by their respective teachings might not look terribly different on the outside, IMO. Either way, you help those who require your aid--being personally responsible for truly helping them in a way that matters. Either way, the responsibility is deeply personal. Where they differ is in their attitudes. Ayn Rand believes that the person is all and that God plays no role in the interaction whereas King Benjamin is very concerned with Heavenly Father's perspective. Jacob Proffitt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:14:35 -0500 From: "robert lauer" Subject: RE: [AML] New Yorker article On the side stepping of LDS doctrine in the NEW YORKER story, Jacob Proffitt wrote: >I understand this. The problem is that the concept is too complex to >explain to a contemporary U.S. Christian in a short interview. With a >reporter who isn't usually *that* interested in understanding the answer >(he wants to obtain, not understand, an answer), it just isn't worth it >to answer even partially. Any answer you give is going to be inadequate >so it's better just to move on. I would tend to disagree with this. The reporter who wrote the NEW YORKER story in the Church DID understand the doctrines, and he presented them in a very pithy manner. "As man now is, God once was..."etc. is NOT hard to comprehend. As for contemporary U.S. Christians, they are NOT the audience of THE NEW YORKER. In fact, most Americans are NOT Christian in anything but the broadest sense. Devout Christians are a minority in the U.S. And why should Latter-day Saints be particularly concerned about them anyway? Current mainstream religious notions are much more New Age/ Self Help oriented, any way. The LDS doctrine of God's humanity and humanity's potential divinity, while blasphemous to devout Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, is something that actually appeals to the mainstream American public. (That's because from a philosophic point of view, Mormonism is the most American religion around--while Orthodox Christianity is a hold-over from the late Roman era and Middle Age Europe.American thought tends toward Aristotle; Orthodox Christianity tends toward Plato.) In the end, anyone reading the NEW YORKER comes away understanding the basics of our doctrine--thanks to the explanation given by the reporter. But given the poor explanation that Church reps gave in the piece, the reader probably assumes that the Church is embarrassed by its theology and is now trying to distance itself from it. And I tend to think that such an assumption on the part of the reader is pretty close to the truth of the matter. (On this, I hope that I am wrong.) ROB. LAUER _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:37:18 -0800 (PST) From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] Ayn RAND, _Atlas Shrugged_ - --- "Eric D. Dixon" wrote: > For that matter, your character could read a lot of Rand and just not > understand it. I remember someone on another LDS mailing list told a > story about a guy who would bring "Atlas Shrugged" to church with his > scriptures, and acted pretty haughtily toward other ward members. Later, > the ward found out he had been systematically abusing his wife. Clearly > this was a guy who latched onto Rand's glorification of the individual > without understanding the corollary that all other individuals are to be > respected as well... > I believe I was the one who told that story, and I'm pretty sure it was on this list. When I was the elders quorum instructor in our ward I met this fellow, who was very conservative theologically (especially about the place of women in the home.) I'm moderate to conservative politically but moderate to liberal theologically, so we politely clashed on a few occasions. Once in a while he brought "Atlas Shrugged" to church along with his scriptures. One day we discovered his wife had checked herself and her kids into an abused women's shelter in Salt Lake. He disappeared from Heber shortly thereafter. A few years ago I saw a letter to the editor from him on the Wasatch Wave newspaper web site, sent from Alaska. He said he was a former resident who was denouncing the various corruptions that had been allowed to flourish in Wasatch county. Is this an unfair example of a Rand follower? Maybe, but a thing like that sticks in your mind. Mary Gaitskill's searing novel "Two Girls, Fat and Thin" has a major sub-plot that is a "roman a clef" about Rand and her early followers. Apparently their aggressive overconfidence masked raging personal insecurity and inadequacy. Raymond Chandler once wrote of his fictional creation, Philip Marlowe: "He has about as much social conscience as a horse. He has a private conscience, which is an entirely different thing." One could define a social conscience as the fear of what others think of you; and a private conscience as how you judge yourself to be living up to what you have been taught about morality. It is the difference between socialism and capitalism (and why one doesn't work while the other does.) As far as I can tell, Rand confused social conscience with private conscience and tried to obliterate conscience altogether. No one was going to make her feel bad about what she did, ever. ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:26:00 -0700 From: "Richard C. Russell" Subject: Re: [AML] New Yorker article - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Johnson" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 6:42 AM Subject: Re: [AML] New Yorker article > The New Yorker article, while for the most part accurate, failed to explain > why anyone would want to be Mormon--a pressing question for an essay on the > fasting growing religion in the world. Have you seen growth figures for any of the following? Islam? Seventh Day Adventists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Pentacostals? (My figures are at the office so I can't provide them) We may have been at one time the fastest growing. But not any more. ********************************************* Richard C. Russell, SLC UTAH www.leaderlore.com, lderlore@xmission.com "There is never the last word, only the latest." ********************************************* This e-mail is a personal communication sometimes intended merely for the sake of discussion. Its contents represent solely the opinions of the author and not necessarily those of the author's employer nor those of any organization with which the author may be affiliated. It is specifically not intended to be a representation of LDS Church doctrine. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:52:59 -0500 From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Books By Your Bed The concept of "books by your bed intrigued me/ I actually wondered what I might discover about my self by checking them. Like Jonathan I have a 'by your bed" that is deep, so I really only identified those "on top" or that are, or have recently been part of my evening reading. A fairly worn Triple Combination. I am now in the 14th chapter of Alma. ENCHANTMENT Orson Scott Card. Don't know too much yet, Just started. INTO THE FIELD Ben Parkinson -Interesting book which I really like, but which irritates me a lot. I liked his first book better. I am on my second reading to try to analyze the things that irritate me. STANDING FOR SOMETHING Gordon B Hinckley. My daughters gift for Christmas. Haven't started it yet. ANGEL OF DEATH Jack Higgins. A fun pot boiler-thriller THE TALKING GOD Tony Hillerman. Also a thriller but Hillerman makes me think a lot. ATTORNEY FOR THE DAMNED Collected and Edited writings of Clarence Darrow. Third reading. THE GNOLE Alan Aldridge and others. Mild and interesting fantasy, with some great pictures to which I often refer in my post university retirement life as a puppeteer and doll maker. THE AMERICAN RELIGION Harold Bloom. Folks in communication studies get Bloomed to death, though not usually by Harold. I really liked this book. I began to read it at a time when, due to illness, my cognitive skills were in doubt. Fighting my way through Bloom reinvigorated my mind. I am grateful and I read bits of it over and over. EAT DRINK AND BE MERRY Dr Dean Edell of radio fame. I picked this up at a remainder booth in a store called Tuesday Morning. It is a wonderful book for a person, thanks to an illness they have been trying to clearly diagnose and treat for eleven years, who has gradually become a quack addict- hypochondriac, herb eating, nut. Really an excellent book. I would like to give it to friends but when I checked they didn't even have it at Amazon. THE GHOST OF THE REVELATOR L.E. Modesitt Jr. An alternate history which I picked up with the idea of writing a review since the book cover tells me that much of it happens in the Mormon Nation of Deseret. It is interesting but not grabbing and it hasn't gone to Deseret- - yet. THE BEAN TREE Barbara Kingsolver. Another book I greet with mixed feeling. My wife and I argue about it a lot. She loved it. I read it with interest and appreciation. I guess that is about it. I received Card's _Sarah_ for Christmas and found it one of the few Card Books that I enjoyed, but tired of, reading in spits and spurts. I also received Dean Hughes new book, but my wife carried it over to her office (she decided to unretire this semester and is teaching at the university st the same time she is finishing the last organizational stuff for a charter school she and some friends created and got funded. (It opens in June.) I keep telling her she is too busy to finish it and if she would just bring it home, I could read it. Not the same thread, but a comment on a similar one. I was a pretty consant reader as a child, but I don't remember anything I read until I picked up RABBLE IN ARMS by Kenneth Roberts. I was in the seventh grade, and that day I became a READER. I read everything he wrote, gave new copies to all of my children as they reached a stage when they would appreciate it. (One of them was in the third grade, but when he finished the Tolkien Trilogy and the HOBBIT, he asked for something historical.) I don't hear much about Roberts anymore, and haven't read him for awhile, but I think he was- perhaps is- one of the very best of the popular "best seller" type authors. The historicity of his work is remarkable (even if one of his heroes in two or maybe three of the books was Benedict Arnold. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:24:33 -0200 From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: Re: [AML] New Yorker article The reason Hinckley shys away from the man-God doctrine in public is because he wants to promote the church as a Christian church, and the man-God doctrine is the reason other Christian church's reject our claim to Christianity. At least that's what I gather from reading a Newsweek article on Mormons, which was much mroe positive than the New Yorker's. The New Yorker may have been trying to provide more balance to the topic. http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/622787.asp#BODY Tom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:14:16 -0700 From: kathy_f@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] New Yorker article Now that I've read the article, I wanted to throw in my two cents worth. Did anyone else notice that Wright started out strong, with what appeared to be a clear theme, but then as he got into the "beleaguered" history, especially all that stuff about the current polygamous marriages occurring in the state, he just sort of floundered from one fringe subject to another, until he limped out a conclusion that all in all was completely empty of meaning? My husband and I both just sat there and said, "Huh?" after reading the concluding paragraph regarding Tolstoy's alleged comments about the church. We were both completely lost as to what Wright intended to say -- was Tolstoy for or against the church? If it was just me, I'd figure I was just misunderstanding his point, but it was as confusing to my husband, who is far more intelligent than I am. (I read the article out loud to him... all of it. Having the flu gives a mom more time to read... ;-)) We laughed over a lot of it, but there was one thing that we both got a bit steamed over. I would like to give that guy in Atlanta a piece of my mind. How dare he presume to speak for us all when he said we pretty much stay in it for the culture. HELLO???? That fella was definitely not speaking for me and mine, obviously, and apparently is clueless as to what the church is all about. But I already said all that in the Life in Mormon Culture thread and won't repeat myself beyond the statement that, dang, if this was only about the culture, I doubt I would still be here! I'm in it for the long haul because I KNOW whose church this is, with all its unusual and breathtaking history of a people striving to come unto Christ. I'm not ashamed of the church's polygamous past, only sad that it wasn't lived righteously by everyone who practiced it. I'm also deeply saddened to think that Lee and his men could have massacred all those people. I am not willing, until I see the alleged proof, to even speculate that Brigham Young ordered those settlers to be murdered in cold blood. That just doesn't sound like the man whose discourses and personal history I have read. Regardless, it was an interesting, often funny, article that my husband and I both enjoyed reading. I could wish he had gotten just one thing right, though -- missionaries go out and teach about Jesus Christ and the Mormon message, not "Joseph Smith and the Mormon message." Kathy Fowkes kathy_f@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:03:12 +0000 From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Mormon Characters in Lit (BYU Newsnet) Author includes LDS character in book By Adrianne Barrett NewsNet Staff Writer 1/22/2002 Although exposure has been negative in the past, more mainstream novels are featuring LDS characters than before. "As we get larger as a church and people, it keeps getting easier to write about our culture," said Dean Hughes, author of the "Children of Promise" series. Hughes has had difficulty in the past including church members as characters in books for the national market. "It's one thing to mention a character's religion, but something else to get into it a great deal," Hughes said in an interview last April. Hughes tried to include a boy being baptized who was disappointed that his father didn't show up, in a book he was working on last April. "My editor couldn't handle that," Hughes said. Since April, that same editor has changed his mind. He is letting Hughes include a church member as one of two main characters in "Soldier Boys," the World War II novel Hughes is currently working on for national readers. "I think part of what is changing is the realization that certain books about or by Mormons have done very well financially," Hughes said. "The best example is President Hinckley's Standing for Something." Hughes said his editor was aware of how successful Hughes' "Children of Promise" series was in the LDS market and felt the same people would want to read "Soldier Boys." It may be getting easier to include church members as characters in novels, but it hasn't always been that way. Authors in only 12 western, 9 historical romance, and 13 science fiction novels have represented LDS church members in the last 21 years, according to Michael Austin's article "Mormons In Popular Literature Bibliography: 1979-2000." What little exposure there has been hasn't always been accurate or positive. The history of Mormonism in America is intimately bound up with the history of bad literature, according to Austin's article. Mormons were portrayed negatively as the antagonists in the very first modern mystery novel, Arthur Conan Doyle's "A Study in Scarlet," according to the article. Church members have been featured the most as characters in mystery novels. Forty authors have included church members as characters since 1979, according to Austin's article. Preston Hunter, a computer programmer in Texas and author of www.adherents.com, a Web site that examines world religions from a sociological perspective, agrees with Austin. "In the mystery genre, many novels feature main characters who are lapsed Mormons, or Mormons weirdly at variance with the official church," Hunter said. Austin's article indicated some of the most popular mystery writers working today are church members, including Anne Perry. Other LDS writers publishing outside Utah include Orson Scott Card, Chris Crowe, Bernice Rave, Dave Wolverton, M. Shayne Bell, Elizabeth H. Boyer, Paul Fisher and Ann Chamberlin, according to a web page about LDS authors. Copyright =A92002 BYU NewsNet _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:04:00 +0000 From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] ARRINGTON, _J. Golden_ (Performances) Salt Lake Tribune, Sunday Jan 20 Coming Up: Theater Golden Opportunities: Trolley Square Live! recently opened a multiple-theater space for live productions at Trolley Square, 700 E. 500 South, Salt Lake City. "J. Golden" is James Arrington's one-man show about the life of J. Golden Kimball, beloved "swearing apostle" of the Mormon Church who died in 1939. Arrington stars. Opens Friday; runs Fridays and Saturdays at 7 p.m. and Mondays at 8 p.m. through Feb. 23. "The Miss Tree Pageant" is an interactive show built around a murder at a beauty pageant. Opens Friday; the open- ended run is Fridays and Saturdays at 9:30 p.m. Tickets to either show are $12; $8 for seniors and students. Families of up to six are $40 on Mondays for "J. Golden." "Knock Your Socks Off" improv troupe performs Mondays at 8 p.m. Tickets are $6. Reservations are recommended for all shows. Call (801) 942-5976. Copyright 2002, The Salt Lake Tribune _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:35:21 -0600 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] High List Volume Folks, As of now (almost noon Monday, Jan. 28, before I've sent out any message for the day), there are 62 messages in the in-box. That represents more than two days' worth of AML-List volume. Of course, as I go through these it may turn out that I can consolidate some, or that they will be bumped for other reasons (e.g., duplication of a news announcement that's already been covered), but that's still a pretty tall mountain to climb... Overall, I'm pleased: this speaks to a lot of active participation in threads that are clearly of current interest to AML-List members. However, clearly I'll have to do some cutting and/or deferring of messages I think are less germane. For right now, I'd like to ask your patience in bearing with me as I work out from under. Please understand also if not all your posts make it to the List. I'd encourage those of you, especially, who are regular posters to think in terms of which comment you want most to make, and try to limit yourself to a comment or two a day for the time being. If high list volume continues, I'll also be trying to steer the conversation toward more purely literary topics (as I've already been trying to do). Please understand, however, that there is still unfinished business on some threads that I will be trying to get through the system, even though these topics may have been officially "closed" already. And thanks again for your participation. Even on a day like today when my head is stuffed up and I'm tending a semi-sick toddler, and behind on my work projects (but grateful to have at least a little work right now), I'm still pleased that the problem is *too much* good stuff, not enough... [P.S. This post won't count toward our limit of 30 posts per day.] Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #590 ******************************