From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #735 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Friday, June 7 2002 Volume 01 : Number 735 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:20:23 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Baby Exhaustion Jacob Proffitt wrote: >We need to seriously take our teen >and early twenty men aside and tell them to pull their head out. It >*isn't* all about them. Their life isn't going to be forever marred if >they fail to attain that *next* level of professional recognition. Most >of us figure it out in our thirties or forties, but by then, we've >missed the most interesting part of our kids' lives and added a lot to >the burden of our poor wives. Why aren't we telling people about these >things? The baby exhaustion, sure. But we need to tell the men that >their career isn't the most important thing that will ever happen to >them and these family-killing obsessions aren't justified. All of which I agree with . . . up to a point. In my case, there really = was no choice. I wanted to be an academic, not because it was some = selfish goal of mine, but because it's absolutely the only thing in the = world I had a chance of being good enough at to support a family at = anything beyond subsistence level. As it was, I didn't finish my = dissertation until I was 33, and I worked HARD. That meant some very = tough, very lean years, for me and for my wife, and I still feel tremendous= guilt over the sacrifices she made for me. But I'd do the same today, = knowing what I know today. Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:45:23 -0600 From: "Jana Pawlowski" Subject: [AML] Re: Virus Heads-up FYI, I've received at almost 3 viruses daily just since joining the AML list again. Luckily my networld server has something built in that catches them and reports them to me, along with the Norton Anti-virus. Jana Pawlowski - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:50:54 -0800 From: Stephen Carter Subject: RE: [AML] Censoring Comments >===== Original Message From "Gae Lyn Henderson" ===== I had already exceeded my self-imposed comment limit. >The fact is that the class does not have an unlimited tolerance for Sister >Henderson-thinks-shes-an-intellectual-tries-to-liberalize-our-thinking type >statements. If only they knew the restraint I show and the empathy I >have for their irritation at my volubility. > >Anyone else censor themselves this way? Censoring myself is the rule rather than exception. I'm under the impression that I have a good sense of what a group will accept and what it will reject outright, and it seems that the priesthood group I go to (the Sunday school class is far too large for any kind of substantive commentary to go on) has no use for inquiry. This was all speculation until a few weeks ago when I was asked by the EQ president to teach a fairly innocuous lesson on "How to Teach Your Children the Plan of Salvation." My EQ pres knows me pretty well, and probably thought I couldn't go too far astray on that topic. Well, I tried to. But they wouldn't let me. My main teaching tool is to bring up a counterpoint whenever a point is made (Joseph Smith and I get along really well when he talks about seeking truth by proving contraries) and then ruminate on it for a little while. So when one guy said that understanding the plan of salvation led to a bettering of life and a happier person, I brought up Job, who, in my reading, was a deeply conflicted man. But they refused me my observation (the missionaries especially, who also know me). No, Job was happy on the inside because he understood the plan of salvation. We almost got somewhere when one fellow said the scriptures promise that children will always return to the true principles taught to them (interestingly, a woman during sacrament meeting bore her testimony quite sincerely along the same lines), so, being the brat I am, I brought up Lamen and Lemuel (and there are plenty of similar types in the OT). The class explained L and L to me by saying that free agency is always at play. I tried to inquire about what they thought the relationship was between free agency and the promise they were talking about, but they, as a group, avoided the question with amazing verbal dexterity. I don't think I was on the way to break testimonies. In fact, I think it would have been very fruitful to explore the mystery of agency, especially as it regards children. But they didn't want to go there. What I think I figured out is that when the people in my particular ward come to church, they are coming to enter an affirmative atmosphere. They don't want to inquire, they want the optimistic parts of the gospel affirmed over and over again. I can certainly see the value of that. But it doesn't help me much. I get bored and start writing Sugar Beet articles in my head. That's why I value the AML list so much. Its my church away from church. The other funny thing about that lesson was that four people fell asleep, and four others got up and left. I'm not sure what that meant. So I guess I want church meetings to perform a different function than most of my ward members want. Stephen Carter Fairbanks, Alaska - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:00:11 -0600 From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Virus Heads-up > It is a good personal policy to never open any attachment that you don't > know is coming. I ask friends to send me an advance email describing any > attachment they plan to send me. If someone sends me an attachment without a > head-up that it's coming, I write back and ask them to tell me what they > sent and why. I don't open any attachment without this information. > > Rex Goode Okay, here's my question. I got the dreaded KLEZ virus, and I'm still trying to figure out how. I NEVER open attachments unless I know they're coming. So, I didn't catch the KLEZ by opening an attachment. I do remember, however, clicking on an e-mail to delete it and having a window pop up showing a file being downloaded. How exactly does this work? Anyone? And how do I prevent it from happening again? Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:37:53 -0700 From: "Kathy Fowkes" Subject: Re: [AML] Virus Heads-up I received an email from you, Marvin, on June 3rd, but it had no attachments. It was just completely blank and went to my Juno address that I almost never used. I knew you hadn't sent it, and that likely there was probably a virus you must have picked up and which can use your address list to send itself out without you knowing about it. Hopefully my antivirus program caught it and that's why there was no attachment when I got to it, but I don't really know how these things work, so..... I opened it this morning, and intended to at least let you know about it. What motivates a person to write a virus anyway? And then take it the next step and send it out. I can't fathom the mental and emotional processes that go into virus authorship. Is it power? Hate? Or just plain past feeling, and looking for a thrill? It's like graffiti on a downtown city wall, only worse, because the damage is exponential. "I was here" to the nth degree. What a waste, to use one's gift not to create oneness, wholeness, and healing, but to create destruction, despair, and pain. The emptiness of the heart that creates to destroy -- I can't imagine making that choice. I tried it once in a conversation when I was a teenager, and it was so painful and frightening, because I really had a talent for it with all the venom of my childhood I could spew around, (and guilelessness is *not* a word the Lord would use to describe me, I'm afraid) that I vowed never to do it again. I didn't want to live with that much darkness in me, or the guilt of the hurt I'd inflicted. I comfort myself with the fact that at least I was baptized after that one, not before, so my guilt and accountability weren't as great as they would have been. I know I still screw up and hurt people accidently far too often for my liking, and that feels bad enough. It's the deliberateness of a virus that has me shaking my head. You know, though, that could be a really interesting way of showing a particular emptiness in a character's life, if he (or she!) wrote and sent out more and more complex and destructive viruses in the wee hours of the night, while living a "normal" life by day. That's way too appealing to let slide, someone most have already done it before. Anyone know of a twist of this kind? Was it done well? There are so many scenarios that this could be used for. Wish I could write decent fiction..... Kathy Fowkes - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:07:17 -0600 From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Accepting Each Other's Offerings [MOD: As Gae Lyn suggests, there's part of her forwarded message from an acquaintance that raises issues inappropriate for broad discussion on AML-List. However, I think that contextualized as Gae Lyn has done, it's appropriate as one person's reaction--perspective. If anyone wants to pursue that dimension of the discussion further, however, it will require some care to avoid getting further off-topic or otherwise violating List guidelines...] Echoing Tracie, Scott is thoughtful, honest, and careful in this post. Part of his conclusion: > > So how does one tell such stories without snivelling? Without > sounding like > we're just trying to jerk tears? Where's the line between sharing > difficult > experience or questions or doubts, and throwing ourselves a pity party? > > I hate the fact that I cringe when people speak eloquently about the > difficulties of baby exhaustion and the stress of being a Mormon mother. I > know that stress, and I know that I've contributed to it in my own > family--and I feel terrible about it and want to do what I can to > alleviate > it. At the same time, my whole role as a Mormon father is based around my > ability to provide a good home for my family, yet I hear very little about > the stresses on Mormon men--and I know that men tend to cut each > other less > slack than women do; we can be pretty hard on each other, just as > we're hard > on women, so there's not much of a community of support for those > of us who > feel overwhelmed but are men. The thing that amazes me about your post Scott is how analytical you are about your reactions. I'm fascinated to see that mental process reproduced in writing. Most of my family members would say, "give it up and go watch TV or something." But I'm truly glad to find this kind of careful self-examination presented. I value it. Why? I'm not sure I can analyze why. I reach my limits of understanding sometimes. And I agree with you throughout your post. Even I thought my post on baby exhaustion was one-sided, negative. Yes, a steady diet of such thoughts might indeed be a simple pity party. But I guess the point for me was that I believe cultural expectations have forced many of my life decisions. I believe this holds true for many Mormons, both male and female. I'm not sure whether I think that making decisions because of expectations is always such a good idea. I think some of us are more compliant, more idealistic, more literal in our acceptance of what is preached, but also more vulnerable to social pressure from other idealistic souls. The reason I want to share some of my life story is because I wish I had been more self-determining in my decisions. Whether it is good for anyone else to know about that is not something I am sure about. It feels important for me now, at my rather advanced age, to assert my voice, to be honest, to say what I really think. That feels good and I don't want or need any pity. On the contrary, I'm happy. I know there are list guidelines about not saying anything that is critical of church doctrine or of leadership. I recognize that sometimes this kind of thinking is pushing the limits. But somehow I believe that for the healthy growth of LDS people, we definitely need this kind of forum. I have an example here that may or may not pass Jonathan's inspection. It is a story from a friend of mine, F. Nelson Henderson. He was active in the church, served a mission, married in the temple, and after 17 years was divorced. At that time he also started seperating himself from the church. So if that takes away his credibility as a storyteller from anyone on the list, stop reading now. But I feel he is honest in telling how he sees it. He asked me to post this on the list. I told him I didn't think it would get on. But here it is: "I remember the anger I see in my wife's face in an otherwise neutral family photograph. Now years later, I still see that silent anger despite her denial at the time. I believe she repressed her forbidden (unchristian) feelings. After the divorce, she was free at last to let that anger rise. I've heard she did some serious work getting over the anger. How could I have been a part of it? Such was never my intention, but surely I contributed significantly. Not to escape my responsibility, I've thought a lot about how it happened. I believe we are setup for it, similar to how you were "setup" for all those pregnancies. I think the Mormon culture (and theology) promotes an unhealthy male-female dynamic. I think one root cause of anger in Mormon women is the destruction of her autonomy. Mormon women learn to interact deferentially, as if powerless, in their relationship to both the church and to their husband. However, powerlessness is a fundamentally harmful posture. The example of no family planning (resultant 15 years of pregnancies and nursing) illustrates the extreme extent to which female autonomy is destroyed. Imagine in hind-sight, not owning the decision to conceive and to raise a child. By this I do not mean the teaching against birth control by the church. But rather I mean the broad public silence by most Mormon women in failing to publicly organize and oppose this outrageous teaching. Fundamentally, how could Mormon women be told by ANYONE what her family planning decisions should be. Hence, this unhealthy dynamic (taught as vital to her religious devotion) then enters into a marriage. What else could be expected other than the anger naturally resulting from the repression of her own self-interest and self-love. She is understandably confounded by the dominant Mormon teachings of sacrifice and obedience." Take it for what you wish. Gae Lyn - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 01:06:11 +0000 From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] ADAMS, "Yellow China Bell" (Deseret News) Deseret News Wednesday, June 5, 2002 'China Bell' rings powerfully Passionate play is not for the timid or children By Genelle Pugmire Deseret News staff writer YELLOW CHINA BELL, by LeeAnne Hill Adams, directed by Megan Sanborn Jones, produced by the Brigham Young University Department of Theatre and Media Arts, through June 15 (excluding Sunday and Mondays) in the Margetts Theatre, Harris Fine Arts Center, tickets $12. Running time: 1 1/2 hours (no intermission). Deep in the catacombs of Brigham Young University's Harris Fine Arts Center, behind the black doors of the Margetts Theatre, you will find perhaps one of the most provocative and passionate plays ever to hit a BYU stage. It is intense, powerful, shocking and revealing. It is not meant to entertain and amuse. It is meant to teach, expose and cause emotion and thought. It is called "Yellow China Bell." This play is not for the timid and is not for children. There is a rape scene and violence that will make people uncomfortable, as it should. However, it is done as carefully and as tastefully as a rape scene can be done. It does not bring embarrassment to the University or its standards. "Yellow China Bell" (based on a real-life experience) is the story of a young woman, 15 year-old Mina, who is kidnapped from her family in Armenia and taken to Volgograd, Russia, where she is forced to marry her abductor. Her only joy comes from conversations with an Armenian woman, Zara; from her prayer book; and from a song about a yellow China bell =97 clear, free and resonant. The scenes are vignettes of past, present and future events connected with present-day dialogue. It is of one woman's journey to find ownership of herself, her body and of her ability to choose. Diane Lynn Rane gives an outstanding performance as Mina. Her facial expressions and body language fill the void of script. Her "husband" Victor is played forcefully by Jesse Ryan Harward.=20 Zara, the modern, in-control Armenian student is played by Laura Reyna. The chemistry between these three actors brings bold intensity to the script. In fact, the story is told more by the action and reactions in body language than any words could. Daryl A. Ball plays Arture, the "friend" and business partner to Victor. Ball's character is to be hated, and he does a great job in making the audience do just that. Other cast members include Laurel Sandberg as Mama, Naira Galoustian as Akchik/young Mina, and Shelley Burton, Amanda R. Schutz and Veronica Naimova as the women. Kudos to director Megan Sanborn Jones. As she says in the audience's= =20 program notes, "This play has been a difficult, yet moving experience for all of us involved in the production. We have learned more about ourselves and about the universe outside our worlds." Congratulations also go to the BYU theater department for allowing such a production. Copyright 2002 Deseret News Publishing Company _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 11:20:04 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Re: Scott Card's Talk At 02:43 PM 6/4/02, you wrote: >CORRECTION: Orson Scott Card's grandfather Lester's last >name is PARK, not CARD. (Lester Park produced the first-ever >feature Mormon commericial feature film, "Corianton", way >back in 1931. The full story is here: >http://www.ldsfilm.com/ar_aesthetic.html Thanks for including this link! I enjoyed these comments on Mormon art. Almost all of Card's books have something in them I dislike in between the passages I like a lot -- but I thoroughly enjoy his discussions about being a Mormon and a writer (even when he points out the foolishness in some of the things I might have done myself). One of my favorite books is his A Storyteller in Zion. He addresses several of the issues we've dealt with on this link, and he doesn't waffle about his opinions. Spot on! Barbara R. Hume Provo, Utah - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 22:41:33 -0500 From: "kumiko" Subject: [AML] Historical Mormon Film Tidbits Okay, I usually don't interrupt you with all the little historical research we do, preferring to update the list with current stuff. But this one was so interesting I thought I'd pass it along. When screenwriter Elliott J. Clawson's father died, George Albert Smith, then member of the Council of Twelve Apostles was one of the speakers at the funeral. Another speaker was President Rudger Clawson of the Council of the Twelve, Elliot's uncle. Not familiar with Elliot J. Clawson? He wrote "The Phantom of the Opera", which starred Lon Chaney, in the 1925. IMDb lists four Academy Award nominations for him, for "The Leatherneck", "Sal of Singapore", "The Cop" and "Skyscraper". Over 70 of his stories or screenplays were produced by Hollywood, including important films like "The Kaiser, the Beast of Berlin" (1918). Elliot's brother was cinematographer Dal Clawson, who photographed over 50 Hollywood films -- about twice as many as Frank Young (Brigham Young's grandson). This makes Dal Clawson one of the most prolific Latter-day Saint cinematographers in history. Reed Smoot (still very much alive) could catch up to him with just a few films. Yet more things to make you go Hmmmm.... You may have occasionally heard references to the "Nine Old Men". They were the people who started with Walt Disney when things were in an embryonic stage, and they stayed with him through the good times and the bad. They are: Les Clark Ward Kimball Ollie Johnston Frank Thomas Marc Davis Milt Kahl Woolie Reitherman Eric Larson John Lounsbury Eric Larson and Les Clark were both born in Utah. Eric Larson and Les Clark were animators (one of the two was usually the animation director or supervising animator) on a number of movies you may remember: Pinocchio, Fantasia, Bambi, The Three Caballerosm, Make Mine Music, Casey at the Bat, Peter and the Wolf, Melody Time, Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, Lady and the Tramp, Sleeping Beauty, One Hundred and One Dalmatians, Mary Poppins, Song of the South, Steamboat Willie, Fun and Fancy Free. Another young man from Utah was Jack Kinney, legendary Disney director famous for his Goofy cartoons. His more than 70 films include: Mickey Mouse Disco (1979); 1001 Arabian Nights (1959); Chips Ahoy (1956); Casey Bats Again (1954); The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad (1949); Goofy Gymnastics (1949); Melody Time (1948); Make Mine Music (1946). Many of these were written by his brother Dick Kinney. - - Preston Hunter - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:04:57 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Exhaustion (Baby and Otherwise) ___ Jana ___ | I wholeheartedly agree that the single life is just as, or | really, more exhausting. ___ Hmm. It is exhausting, although for quite different reasons. If I stay up until 5 in the morning having fun, then yeah, I'm just as tired as if I stayed up until 5 watching a fussy baby. But it isn't quite the same thing. I think there are numerous stresses on singles, especially those of us over 25. However those primarily relate to unique religious issues that I'm not sure non-Mormons face. i.e. in an LDS context, where do you go to be social? Given the emphasis on having a family, guilt and the stress of finding such is a constant preoccupation for singles. etc. In terms of regular stress and exhaustion though, I don't think we have it anywhere near the same. I mean just think of all the money that I'd be spending on extra food, children's clothes, medical care, diapers, etc. Now I get to spend it on books, video games, and travel. I'd imagine that this comes back to haunt one once they reach retirement age, however. Then you have no "safety net" and I suspect there is a lot of loneliness as well. - -- Clark Goble --- clark@lextek.com ----------------------------- - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:59:55 -0600 From: "Eileen Stringer" Subject: Re: [AML] Stresses on Men Ivan Angus Wolfe wrote: > What is odd to me is how this seems to get translated by the local leaders > (nearly all of whom I've been noticing are doctors and lawyers) to "have no debt > at all - and invest all your money." I have never had any of my local leaders (and both my grandfathers, my father and an uncle were my bishops at various times in my life and all had debt at the time they were bishops) tell me that all debt was evil. I have been encouraged to get out of debt and avoid debt if possible. I have had a couple of my bishops use President Tanner's "Constancy Amid Change" pamphlet as a guideline in a classes about wise money management and planning a budget, but never once did the pound the pulpit and tell us to never ever go into debt. We were encourage to avoid it if possible and not go into debt unnecessarily. > Maybe I'm the only one, but my mission president once gave a zone conference on > how to become wealthy. Neither of my mission presidents gave any conferences, zone or otherwise on how to become wealthy, none of my 5 siblings mission president's did this, neither did my grandparent's mission president, my parent's mission president or my close friends who went on missions had their mission presidents divulge any get wealthy techniques. My sister who was just married this past weekend noted that in their pre-marital counseling sessions their bishop encouraged them to budget wisely and try to avoid debt, but stated that some debt was unavoidable in today's society and sometimes the best they could do was learn to manage their debt wisely so that it did not become a millstone. He gave them President Tanner's pamphlet as well along with a couple of others I don't recall right now and wished them well. Eileen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:43:56 -0600 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Money Matters (was: Stresses on Men) - ---Original Message From: Ivan Angus Wolfe > Then Jacob wrote: > > It had better be careful if it wants to show how damaging it is to > > follow the brethren. Like I said, you don't stay out of debt by > > earning more. > > I'm not saying we shouldn't follow the brethern - they always > talk about "nessecary" vs. "unnessecay" debt. Well, by itself, that's an ambiguous statement. But in context, you'll find that pretty much all debt *is* labeled as unnecessary. The only exception I heard growing up was a house and it is only lately that I've heard allowance made for a family car. The trouble is, even that can be reinterpreted ambiguously (what size house, what kind of car, etc.). President Kimball said it best--those who understand interest earn it and those who don't pay it. Debt is a form of voluntary slavery that doesn't ever sleep and is best avoided. > What is odd to me is how this seems to get translated by the > local leaders (nearly all of whom I've been noticing are > doctors and lawyers) to "have no debt at all - and invest all > your money." Well, not an entirely inappropriate message. Whether you're a doctor, lawyer, brick layer, convenience store clerk, computer programmer, whatever, it's by far best to have no debt at all and invest as much as you can. And I have to admit that I'm concerned about the too inclusive "invest all your money." I've never heard anybody advocate such an unwieldy extreme. What I usually hear is, at its most extreme, "invest all you can." > Maybe I'm the only one, but my mission president once gave a > zone conference on how to become wealthy. My bishop just > gave a presentation on how to invest money for maximum > benefit under the guise of staying fiscally responsible - and > always - it was "any debt is bad." Any debt *is* bad. Even debt on a house isn't a happy thing and is best avoided. Sure, all things in measure, but with debt, there just isn't much to recommend it. Debt, like alcohol and cigarettes, is a way of making short-term, seemingly beneficial decisions that bind you to long-term detrimental effects. But when it comes right down to it, I think that the important point (and the reason we have these lessons in church) is that we should learn how money works. Not that we should be obsessed by it. But we *should* recognize that money is a prominent and important part of our society. There are certain laws and rules that money follows and we are significantly better off if we understand those rules and learn to implement them. Anyone will benefit by knowing how money functions and how to make wise financial decisions. But even if you *don't* learn all the ins and outs, the simple rules of "avoid all debt" and "invest all you can" will keep you out of 98% of the financial problems Americans tend to face--even if you don't understand why. I mean, how much freer are you to tell the boss that, no, you *won't* work late every night this week (or on Sunday, or whatever) if you are substantially out of debt and able to take a pay-cut if you need to get a new job? The one (person, company, entity etc.) who earns the interest has the power/freedom. You can use that freedom/power any way you want. Many people use any power/freedom they have to pursue more money. What I'm trying to say is that we should use our power/freedom to bolster our families and it is worth sacrifice (of power, money, stuff, or prestige) to be able to do so. And just to reassure that I'm not attempting to be holier than thou, here, I'm not by any means a paragon of fiscal virtue. I've only recently taken steps to eliminate my debt and it's bad timing because my newfound resolve accompanies a substantial decrease in my earnings (25%-30% decrease). I wish I had earlier applied the measures then that I am applying now and I wish I understood earlier what I do now. Debt = *bad* is a rule I've learned with some intense personal discomfort. Jacob Proffitt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:50:04 -0400 From: Richard Johnson Subject: [AML] RE: Money Matters (was: Stresses on Men) >I'm not saying we shouldn't follow the brethern - they always talk about >"nessecary" vs. "unnessecay" debt. . My bishop just gave a presentation on how to invest >money for maximum benefit under the guise of staying fiscally responsible - - and >always - it was "any debt is bad." > >--ivan wolfe You don't get much poorer than I was for a long time. Supporting two, then three, then four kids on graduate assistantships and fellowships introduces one to federal surplus commodities handouts (wonderful, it was the only time my kids ever ate butter and drank real milk that wasn't mixed in the blender the day before) etc.,etc. but frankly if the bishop really knows what he is talking about a presentation on how to invest money for maximum benefit would be a terrifically valuable presentation in most wards. I have four sons. The youngest started investing when he and his wife didn't have the proverbial "pot nor a window" (if you haven't heard this saying contact me off list for the whole thing). He also has become really seriously committed to food storage and preparedness. As a result, when he was out of work (with house payments, two kids, a stay at home wife and army reserve monthly drill income his only reliable income). When he was out of work the bishop kept asking him if he needed help- - he didn't. Now he is back at work (in a good paying job,)he is still in good shape and still investing. He will always have what he and his family need. The investment bug came as a result of what his bishop taught him when he and his wife were still undergraduates at BYU. My other three sons do all right. One is a college librarian, one is a carpenter (with a summa cum laude degree in sociology and computer information systems) and one is a free spirit, fencing coach, occasional high school teacher and, in his own words a guard bum (Applies for full time training or other stuff in the National Guard whenever all else fails), but non of them, in spite of being single and really _able_ to afford it have ever invested and though they could cope with being unemployed for a time it is mostly because they don't have dependents. In other words one shouldn't knock good advise even if it comes from the bishop. One never knows how good it might be. (Actually, doing a little investing before I retired sure makes a handy supplement to the pension I get) As for debt. None of the "Brethen" I've listened to said "don't go into debt at all" They just say except for a house or _maybe_ a car be very hesitant to go into debt. Anyone who has been in the position of giving out welfare knows how frequently the dire straits that families get into are the result of stupid debt. That guise of being fiscally responsible is a pretty good guise. Richard B. Johnson, (djdick@PuppenRich.com) Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool. I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www.PuppenRich.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:26:13 -0400 From: Kimheuston@aol.com Subject: [AML] Single Parenting Another book moms might want to look at is my _Single Parenting_ book, published a while ago by Deseret Book but still generally available. I've been a married full-time mom, a married part-time working mom, and a single, full-time working mom, and all have had both their special challenges and their special beauties. I've always felt stress and beauty in the proportion that seems emblematic to me of all situations of rapid growth, even now that I'm only left with two practically self-sufficient teenage boys at home (and a daughter away at college and a son on a mission in Asia.) It's always too much without Christ, and always eventually powerfully beautiful with him. Kimberley Heuston - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:21:30 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Censoring Comments At 09:57 PM 6/4/02, you wrote: >Now I make a point to say something if I disagree with an >item being presented (I see this as the main problem with Sacrament Meeting, >by the way--no interactivity). Once a brother in my ward gave a talk about how his wife always gave birth without the benefit of painkillers, because that was The Natural and Right Way That God Intended. He boasted of the fact that his wife produced all their children in a state of agony. As far as interactivity goes, if the glares the sisters in the congregation gave him could slice, the man would have been gelded where he stood. He was fortunate he did not make his speech in Sunday School, where he could have been lynched from the basketball standard. There would not have been enough husbands in the crowd to save him. Barbara R. Hume Provo, Utah - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 10:23:52 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Baby Exhaustion Book At 02:19 PM 6/4/02, you wrote: >. So, feel free to >jump in with your top-five (or top-ten) challenges as a young mother. . . >I'd welcome it. I do think you need to address the issue of the attitude of the community the young mother lives in. In some parts of the Mormon subculture, a young woman is looked down on if she wants to pursue her own interests rather than pop out a baby every year. In some parts of the country, a young woman is considered weird if she prefers staying at home with a good-sized number of kids rather than building a career. People are affected by the waves of disapproval that come their way unless they have a good deal of self-confidence, and let's face it -- most young women in our culture don't have that. Barbara R. Hume Provo, Utah - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:21:52 -0500 From: "Angela Hallstrom" Subject: Re: [AML] Baby Exhaustion Book - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kellene Adams" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 3:19 PM Subject: [AML] Baby Exhaustion Book > I'd love suggestions for the chapters (which I started to outline above). > I'm talking to a few family counselors/therapists to get a feel for what > they feel some of the most common and most challenging problems might be, > but I'd like to balance that with other sources as well. So, feel free to > jump in with your top-five (or top-ten) challenges as a young mother. . . > I'd welcome it. > > Thanks, Kellene Kellene, this seems like such a great idea. It's wonderful that you already have some interest. You mentioned a lot of important topics to explore in your chapters already, but here are a few things I would touch on: 1. Don't get caught up in comparing your children to other people's children. The more children I've had (three now) and the older they get, the more I look at the mother I was almost six years ago when my first son was born and want to laugh at how tied-up-in-knots I got over milestones, growth charts, signs of a supergenius I.Q., worry that because he didn't walk until he was 14 months old that he would be picked last for baseball teams the rest of his life, etc., etc. After talking to my mom about this, she tells me that her generation was a lot less hung up on the whole milestone thing (possibly because there were fewer "What to Expect" books and parenting internet sites?). Although it's important to be aware if your child seems to really need some help catching up in one area or another, many young mothers--especially of first babies--are just tense, tense, tense about what their babies do and when. I guess my overall point would be to let your kid be whomever he or she is; relax and enjoy your child even if he isn't a supergenius or has issues with biting the other kids in nursery or is afraid to go down the slide at the park when everybody else's kids seem to love it. Don't feel like early childhood is some giant test that your baby must pass with flying colors or else she is doomed to a mediocre life. 2. Don't be afraid to do what works, for yourself or for your baby. That goes to letting them cry it out at night or bringing them into your bed, feeding them formula or breast milk (I formula fed my first two and breast fed my last one. All three are healthy and happy and wonderful.), putting them to bed at night at 7:30 or 11:00, giving them a pacifier or not, when to take away the bottle, and on and on. Mothers are their own best judge. Make a decision and feel okay that you know what's best for you and your child. 3. I don't know how much beyond babyhood your book intends to go, but the whole idea of baby "classes" and early childhood gymnastics and basketball and music and everything else can be a little overwhelming. I still struggle with it. My oldest son is going to be six and has taken swimming, karate, t-ball and basketball, but (I am not kidding you) I feel somehow guilty that I have yet to sign him up for soccer, like I have let him down on the soccer front and he is already dangerously behind other kids his age. All three of my kids are under six, and still I feel a little frazzled about the "necessity" of signing my kids up for things, and the pressure starts as early as two years old. So there are a few ideas. I know that there are tons more, but these are the ones off of the top of my head. Good luck with the book. I would love to see it in print. Angela - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #735 ******************************