From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #779 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Tuesday, July 23 2002 Volume 01 : Number 779 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:43:46 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Institutional Repentance ___ Margaret ___ | Scott, HOW do you suggest we repent AS AN INSTITUTION? ___ What does it even mean to repent as an institution? I mean I understand that institutions change, which is the essence of repentance. But I honestly don't quite fathom what we mean by institutional repentance. If it is just change, hasn't the institution already done this with the 1978 revelation? Do you mean individuals within the institution who haven't adopted the change? But if so, doesn't that suggest that the problem isn't institutional change but individual repentance? Further wasn't institutional racism really mainly a manifestation of individual racism? Other than structural changes that took place in 1978 (the theological nature of which is still debatable) what did the institution (rather than individuals) do wrong? Unless we mean by institution not the structure/organization but the institution as the aggregate of the individuals belonging to it. Color me confused over this frequent rhetorical treatment of institutions as people. I don't mind it as a rhetorical trope but get hopelessly muddle headed when I try to comprehend it when it moves from trope to reality. ___ Margaret ___ | Can we as Mormon writers/artists help that process along? ___ I'm not quite sure what this means either. I mean I can understand writing as aiding people in seeing others as authentic human beings thereby helping eliminate racist thinking. One advantage of literature is that it enables us to experience things that we don't have the opportunity of experiencing directly. Given the "Mormon belt's" seeming lack of cultural/ethnic diversity this can be of great help. I think that 50% of racism is simply ignorance from a lack of encounter those who are "different." So in that regard literature can certainly help. I half wonder if one of the greatest aids to reducing racism wasn't the miniseries _Roots_ back in the 70's. - -- Clark Goble --- clark@lextek.com ----------------------------- - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:53:00 -0700 From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] "Choose the Rock" > I want to ponder this and here is my question. What is >the average age of a GA at this moment? And what is >the youngest age they are usually made a GA? >snip I don't know for sure, but the average age must be somewhere around 60 +/- and I don't think there are any who are made GA's before 30 -35.. My guess would be that the majority of them have been thoroughly exposed either first or second hand to Rock and Roll and for that matter just about any other form of music there is. The thing is I'm sure they all (GA's) have a very well tuned and finely adjusted censoring system and they monitor their intake of the wide diversity of media saturation we are all exposed to every waking moment. I think we all have to learn to do that for ourselves and only the very young and immature need to be monitored by their parents or adult mentors. Regards, Bill Willson - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:01:16 -0600 From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] Tooting My Horn For anyone who might be interested, I will be signing copies of my novel, "Lost Without You," this Saturday, the 27th. I will be at the Orem Seagull from 11:30 -1:30 and the Provo Seagull from 2:00 - 4:00. For those who remember, this book is the happy ending to the story I related in my critique post last winter. :) Annette Lyon - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:21:14 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Faith-Building Literature? I wrote: >> Then we're asking, is there stuff out there that, if we read it, = will=20 cause us to question our testimony >> so substantially that we might stop believing in God or in the = Church.=20 And to that question, I would >> say that the answer is an absolute, unequivocal, no. It is not = possible=20 that anything could be written >> that would cause us to lose our testimony, if indeed a testimony is=20 something worth having. To which John Remy replied: >I have come across a lot of material over the years-fiction,=20 >>history, science, writings from other religious perspectives which = have=20 >challenged my basic convictions in several of the fundamental principles = of=20 >the gospel. I apply the same conscience, the same open mind, and = similar=20 >techniques to these new perspectives which I applied when first discoverin= g=20 >gospel truths, and sometimes my heart and mind tell me that the new=20 >principles make more sense than the LDS ones. Well, sure. And that's all to the good, isn't it? In part, the gospel is = a never-ending search for truth, and of course we'll read stuff that = challenges previously held assumptions on a whole variety of matters. But = will it destroy a testimony, this constant process of discovery and growth = and challenge and change, this constant search for knowledge and understand= ing? Will a life long engagement with the world of ideas ultimately = destroy a firmly held, spiritually based testimony? I'll go to my grave = insisting that testimony can only be enhanced by a search for truth, and = that a testimony that says 'this book disturbs me, these ideas challenge = what I believe, I will therefore read no more" is not, in fact, a = testimony at all, but only an opinion. Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:17:29 -0600 From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Utopias >>> russa@candesa.com 07/22/02 10:50 AM >>> > >I would also hold out the City of >Enoch as an example that it is possible to eliminate scarcity--however, the >references to it give us no idea of how they achieved their lack of >poverty. The people of Enoch "solved" the problem of scarcity, they didn't eliminate it. The scarcity axiom of economics says that there is a limited supply of goods. If I have something and give you some of it, there is less for me. I put "solved" in quotes, because the scarcity axiom still applied to them. The people of Enoch still had demand for goods. They ate. They needed to stay warm and dry, etc. There was still a limited supply of goods. You could eliminate the scarcity problem by tapping into an infinite supply ("Earl Grey, caffeine-free, hot"), but I don't think that's how they did it. Solving the problem of scarcity means to find an optimal match of a limited supply of goods with everyone's demand. A socialist system could achieve this ideal with an omniscient central planner, but OCPs are notoriously scarce (!), so I don't think that's how Enoch's people did it, either. Besides, about the only other thing that we know about the people of Enoch was that they were righteous enough to be taken up to heaven, and having an OCP doesn't imply anything about a people's righteousness. I think it's safe to say that there's a direct connection between the righteousness of the people of Zion and the fact that there was no poor among them. The people achieved a level of empathy and compassion that they were able to recognize and provide for one another's needs as if they were their own. "I have two loaves of bread, but I see that he doesn't have any. I'll give him one, and I won't feel any sense of loss, because fulfilling his needs is as satisfying to me as fulfilling my own." The city of Enoch would still have been subject to natural disasters or other forces that create shortages of goods (unfilled demand), but everyone would suffer equally. Everyone would also grow equally wealthy in good times. Presumably, the people of Enoch (being people) would still vary in their demand for various goods. Not everyone would want identical houses or to drive the same car, but no one would feel envious when they looked across the fence. MBA (Morgan B. Adair) - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:55:31 -0500 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Repentance Margaret asked: > Scott, HOW do you suggest we repent AS AN INSTITUTION? Can we as >Mormon writers/artists help that process along? To which I reply: I think it's dangerous for us as private individuals to act in ways that might be seen as calling the Church as an organization or Church leaders (past or present) to repentance, as might be the case if we called for the Church to "repent" of past policies regarding blacks and the priesthood. If such repentance is needed, I think most active members are inclined to think that it would come in and through priesthood authorities; to publicly call for it seems to call for a politicization that I think most active LDS are likely to think is really out of place, for artists or anyone else. On the other hand, I think art provides a prime opportunity to call us to repentance of our individual and cultural sins, our intolerance, and the like, and to help convey in human terms the cost of policies of the past and present. Church leaders have spoken out against intolerance. It's certainly appropriate for Mormon art to take on this theme, as Margaret and Darius's work has done. And I think it goes further than that. If there's a process of preparation that's needed in order for change to take place--including repentance, where needed--art can help prepare the hearts of the people for that. As Mormons, our understanding of the dynamics of revelation, as I understand it, places a high emphasis on the preparedness of the people to receive revelation; even Pres. Kimball's own declaration made reference to the role played by prayer in obtaining the revelation changing this policy. Art can help prepare the way for such changes--not by calling for change, but by inviting thoughtful self-examination. If you really believe in the principle of continuing revelation, it seems to me that once the hearts of the people are ready, further light and knowledge will come. So far as I can tell, Margaret's and Darius's work has done as much, in terms of helping prepare the way for us as a people to repent of our intolerant past, as any specific work of art could do. Other works of art can do more of the same, in this and other areas. But I think they'll be most effective--and honest, as works of art--if, like Margaret's and Darius's work, they focus on telling true stories powerfully, rather than agitating for a particular action or viewpoint. To the degree that Mormon art is seen as agendized, as pushing for a particular course of future action, to that degree I think it will be marginalized and denied much of its power to change the hearts of people. Just my opinion. Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not AML-List jlangfor@pressenter.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:08:49 -0500 From: "Robert Means" (by way of Jonathan Langford) (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Library Position at BYU [MOD: I've included the text of the listing below.] Jonathan, Gideon Burton suggested I pass along to you this job opening at the Harold B. Lee Library at BYU  for posting on the AML website. This is a faculty position for a Theatre, Media Arts, and Communications Subject Specialist, and we hope we might attract some AML members out there. I ve attached the job description and the listing with BYU Employment (anyone interested can also get to BYU Employment via http://www.byu.edu/hr/employment/faculty.html , position # 001410). Thanks for your help. Robert Robert S. Means English & American Literature Librarian 5525 Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 voice: (801) 422-6117 fax: (801) 422-0466 robert_means@byu.edu ANNOUNCEMENT OF FACULTY VACANCY Position: Theatre, Media Arts, and Communications Subject Specialist Available: December 1, 2002 Description/Environment Brigham Young University, a privately owned and operated university of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, located in Provo, Utah, invites application for a tenure track faculty position in the Public Services Division of the Harold B. Lee Library. The library is seeking a dynamic individual who can perform well in a rapidly changing environment. The Theatre, Media Arts and Communications Subject Specialist is responsible to develop collections, provide reference and advanced research assistance and bibliographic instruction in the subject areas associated with the Theatre & Media Arts and the Communications Departments at Brigham Young University. Brigham Young University, an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer, is sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and requires observance of Church standards. Preference is given to applicants who are members of the Church. Responsibilities: oDevelop and manage print, non-print, and electronic collections for the library in the subject areas of media arts studies, theatre arts studies, theatre arts education, acting, production design, theatre design, technology, communication studies, broadcast journalism, print journalism, advertising and marketing, public relations, and mass communications. oAct as faculty liaison with university faculty and program administrators in the assigned subject areas of expertise oPlan, promote, and implement instructional programs for undergraduates, graduates, and faculty. oProvide reference and advanced research assistance to patrons in person, through digital channels and over the phone. oIn collaboration with faculty, plan and implement digital library projects in support of teaching and research. oServe on library committees, working groups, and task forces. oParticipate in research, publication, and other professional development activities Qualifications Required: oMLS from an ALA-accredited institution required oA Bachelor of Arts in Theatre & Media Arts, Visual Arts, or Communications required. oAn advanced degree in related subject field preferred. oAbility to provide advanced research assistance in assigned subject areas oExperience in an academic library setting preferred. Ability to work effectively with faculty, students, and other professionals in a research library setting. oSubject expertise to assess the curricular and research needs of the University and to build the collections to meet these needs oDemonstrated interest in information technologies and a high degree of computer literacy. oExcellent interpersonal skills including the ability to work collaboratively with colleagues, faculty, students and the general public oFlexibility in adapting to changing departmental and organizational priorities and to ever-changing technological environments Salary and Benefits This is a tenure track position with faculty status, generous insurance, and retirement benefits. Salary is commensurate with experience and academic/professional qualifications. This is a twelve-month appointment with twenty-two days annual leave and additional professional development time available. To Apply Send BYU Faculty Application (available at http://byu.edu/hr/employment/faculty.html), resume and names of three references to Cali O'Connell, Administrative Assistant, 2068 HBLL, Brigham Young University, Provo UT 84602. Email inquiries to cali_oconnell@byu.edu Application Deadline: September 30, 2002 - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:56:47 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Folklore in Our Religion (was: Elijah Able Society) At 05:14 PM 7/20/02 -0600, you wrote: >Yep. It's amazing how folklore manages to >fill in the spaces where truth hasn't flowered. Reminds me of my >neglected garden. As soon as my grand-baby arrived, all my petunias got >abandoned and have now been overrun by weeds. But the Mormon religion provides such a rich and fertile ground for such errant growth! When I was a Protestant, I never worried too much, for example, about the next life; I was saved, so I would go to Heaven and praise God all day and float around and pluck a harp. Didn't sound at all exciting -- about all you could say for it was that it was better than the lake of fire and brimstone and the imps with the pitchforks. Maybe that's why we didn't bother speculating. But this! Oh, my gosh! Families forever? What about mean old Great-Grampa Fisher, who thought the right thing to do was to whale the tar out his children to prove how godly he was? Plural wives, eh? Well, we'll just see about that! Will there be libraries there, where we can read all the stuff we didn't have time to read here? More do the point, will that information actually stay in our celestial brains, rather than dribbling out like it does here? Will we be resurrected fat? If we were when we died, that is. Will the people who think they're the only ones who deserve to go to the highest kingdom have their own space so they don't have to see the rest of us? Will I mess up so bad that I will be condemned to that eternal servant class, and have to endure an eternity of celibacy on top of the decades of it I've had here? You call that heaven? As you can see, I've had a lot of fun with speculating. The usual response I get is to chill out and "wait until you get there, assuming ." We just have so much more material to work with! barbara hume, whose favorite speculation comes from a business colleague, who posits that my husband was killed in the Napoleonic Wars - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:27:33 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] "Choose the Rock" See, here's the thing. There've been a lot of posts on this thread, and = throughout them all I've seen the same assumptions: there's 'wholesome' or = 'edifying' or 'uplifting' music, and then there's rock, which we like a = lot better and think of as a lot more fun, but which probably actually = isn't 'wholesome' or 'edifying' or 'uplifting.' And we all have to be = really careful, even us rock fans, to be sure we're listening to the more = 'edifying' rock bands, or at the very least leavening not-good-for-us fun = music with actual real 'edifying' music, like Mozart or the Tab choir. =20 When I wondered if there were any GA's who rocked, I intended to implicitly= challenge those assumptions. I think those assumptions are inherently = false. I think there's just music. I don't think there's anything = particularly edifying or spiritual about Mozart or the Tab choir. I love = Mozart. I write Spoken Words for the Tab, have sung in choirs professional= ly most of my life and am reasonably familiar with much of the choir = literature, grew up on opera with a father who is a professional opera = singer, and was a classical music DJ for years. I like the Tab choir. = It's not lowbrow music at all, especially since they're started doing = those amazing Mac Wilberg arrangements. They've improved mightily. When = I say I think there's nothing inherently spiritual about classical music I = say that from the perspective of someone who knows classical music, plays = it all the time and loves it. I just think there's nothing inherently = unspiritual about rock music. I have felt the spirit bear witness to my = soul while listening to, and singing, classical music. I have felt the = same spirit bear an equally strong testimony while listening to Jethro = Tull, or AC/DC or Metallica. Or Keb Mo, or Muddy Waters, or Robert = Johnson. Or Waylon Jennings or George Jones or Loretta Lynn. Or Miles = Davis. There's no difference. It's just music. So when I wonder if = there are any GA's who rock, I mean, are there any GA's who deeply love = hard core rock and roll, and have enjoyed the same deep communion with the = Spirit while listening to the Who, or Pink Floyd, or The Clash, or Elvis = Costello, that I have felt. 'Cause I know some of 'em have felt the same = communion with the Spirit that I have felt while listening to the = Rachmaninoff Third, or to Brahms German Requiem. Well, two addenda. It's not 'just music.' Music is a wonder and a = miracle, really, that human beings can create instruments and sounds that = can affect us so powerfully. I can't live without music in my life, = pretty much all the time. I certainly can't write without music. In = fact, I can't write anything without first finding exactly the right kind = of music to inspire me on this piece. =20 Second, of course I can't generalize from my own experience. I don't know = if this is off-list guidelines, but in his talk The Arts and the Spirit of = the Lord, Elder Packer talks about how some pieces of music help him feel = the spirit and others don't. He's telling the truth of course. I cannot = feel the spirit when I sing hymns in church, for example, not most of the = time. Our organist is pretty bad, the tempi are always too slow, and = there's never any energy or life in the conducting or singing. That's = okay; we just don't happen to live in a very musical ward right now, = that's all. Other wards I've lived in, the hymns have been sung with = some vigor, and they're been a valuable part of my spiritual life. I = doubt I could feel the spirit while listening to Britney Spears. (Though = her cover of "Satisfaction" is brilliant.) There are some sounds I think = I'd probably better avoid if I want to feel the spirit, not because the = music is bad, but because it carries with it associations that I personally= find spiritually detrimental. But the edifyingness of any piece of music = is highly, highly subjective. It's all just music. Not rock, or jazz or = country or classical. Music. Those classifications are useful musicologic= ally. But not spiritually, not at all, not even a little.=20 Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:52:24 -0600 From: "Scott Parkin" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Utopias Morgan Adair wrote: > I put "solved" in quotes, because the scarcity axiom still applied to > them. The people of Enoch still had demand for goods. They ate. and > Presumably, the people of Enoch (being people) would still vary in their > demand for various goods. Not everyone would want identical houses or to > drive the same car, but no one would feel envious when they looked > across the fence. Right. There's a fairly common assumption that the socialist ideal requires that each and every person receive exactly the same goods in exactly the same proportions in order to meet some ideological concept of "equal" or fair. But I'm not sure this is a useful assumption. If there are twelve people, but only eleven eggs is it really equitable to force all to do without eggs since the resource is scarce and there's no easy way to divide eleven eggs among twelve people? Why? Can't one person choose to do without an egg today and another does without tomorrow? Or better yet, why can't we evaluate the peoples' need for eggs and supply the one person who needs one egg for pancakes, the other person who needs three eggs for a birthday cake, a third person who needs two eggs for his custard with their six total eggs since no one else has expressed a need for eggs today? We can then either put the remaining five eggs in the egg bank for tomorrow when the demand will be for sixteen eggs. Of course another answer is to distribute all eggs every day and let the people manage their own use, either storing eggs on a daily basis against future need or bartering among each other to redistribute scarce resources among those who need them. I know a woman who is getting old and feeble and has a hard time caring for herself. A service does her shopping, a nurse drops by to see her every two weeks, and she receives government support in the form of eggs, beans, rice, cheese, and milk. She has little use for any of those things, but is afraid to pass on her weekly allotment for fear that she will be removed from the list and not receive the perishable items on those few occasions when she actually needs them. During a recent visit we found that she had eggs in her fridge with a January expiration date, and cheese with a December expiration. She had powdered milk so old that weevils had infested it, and bags of beans that were several years old and had never been opened. There was no real scarcity there, only a fear of it. As a result, useful resources were wasted because she didn't trust the system to meet her occaisional need. She had learned years ago that the system didn't care about her as an individual, so her trust in that system vanished, with fear and hoarding as its result. Which suggests that a change of heart is the first thing that needs to occur to make any system work at optimum efficiency--even here in the United States. Which is, of course, what happened in Enoch. There's no evidence that they evenly distributed every resource, but there is evidence that those with need received what they needed and others did not feel need. We keep trying to create these pure definitions--socialism requires all or nothing distribution, and capitalism requires a vast poverty class in order to ensure the wealth of a few--but none of these pure systems is or can be considered perfect. Why do we have such a hard time imagining systems based on one foundation that use the principles of other systems--anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy is sought after an implemented in combinations previously untried or unimagined? Because if the will of this or any other people were only to ensure the total prosperity of the community and not the individual wealth or power of a few of its members, the possibilities are truly boundless. Maybe such a thing is impossible, but I'm not sure it is. We claim to want to become as God; at some point we need to show that potential in exceptional works. If not in reality, why not in fiction? Scott Parkin - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:51:50 -0700 From: "Kim Madsen" Subject: RE: [AML] 3 LDS Lit Queries Travis Manning wrote: >Is labeling Mormons instructive? I think the best (most hilarious) "labeling" job of Mormon-ness was done by Robert Kirby in his column titled "Five Kinds of Mormons". I think it was originally published when he worked at the Orem paper...sorry I can't remember the name of that paper...Utah County Journal or something like that? I believe the column was re-published when he moved to the SL Trib. Unfortunately, it wasn't one of the columns collected into either of his compliation books, and it's probably over five or six years old, so I don't know how to direct anyone to it. If you missed the column first time around, you could probably drop him a line at his very public email published in the Trib three times a week rkirby@sltrib.com and ask him where you could find a copy. If you've never read the description of a Nazi Mormon, you really ought to. A convert in our ward, a gentleman from Jamiaca who converted here in Utah--a temple-worker, ex-bishopric member, our high-priest group leader--emphatically states often that although he loves the gospel of Jesus Christ and believes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be Christ's church on earth, he will NEVER be a Mormon. Mormonism, to him, is strictly a cultural thing and has nothing to do with the gospel. Being a born and bred cultural Mormon, as well as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have to agree with him. That line of reasoning probably only holds true for the state of Utah, where our sheltered roots have led to a weirdness not found in the rest of the church. By the way, according to Kirby, there are only three true Mormons alive on the face of the earth right now, but each Mormon thinks he/she is one of them... Kim Madsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:56:42 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Utopias - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clark Goble" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 11:54 AM Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Utopias > ___ Scott ___ > | Since a perfect system cannot be implemented without a > | perfect dictator it's foolish to try, or even to imagine > | a system other than our own. All we can do is wait for > | Christ to come and do it for us. > ___ > > Just a minor theological quibble. My understanding is that the ideal of the > gospel is more a kind of anarchy where all involved are so good that their > choices are always in harmony. I would hope this is not the case because it implies that we must ultimately all come to think alike. It's always been my wish that the true Mormon utopia would not undermine free choice but that it would be more tolerant of different choices than our own Mormon society is today. This would be a true utopia. A world where all believed an acted in harmony would be a prison, afaic. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:01:37 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Repentance - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clark Goble" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: RE: [AML] Institutional Repentance > ___ Margaret ___ > | Scott, HOW do you suggest we repent AS AN INSTITUTION? > ___ > > What does it even mean to repent as an institution? I mean I understand > that institutions change, which is the essence of repentance. But I > honestly don't quite fathom what we mean by institutional repentance. If it > is just change, hasn't the institution already done this with the 1978 > revelation? Do you mean individuals within the institution who haven't > adopted the change? But if so, doesn't that suggest that the problem isn't > institutional change but individual repentance? > > Further wasn't institutional racism really mainly a manifestation of > individual racism? Other than structural changes that took place in 1978 > (the theological nature of which is still debatable) what did the > institution (rather than individuals) do wrong? It allowed the untruths of certain very important Apostles and their Sons-in-Law to be published with the apparent agreement of the Church. We realize now that Mormon Doctrine by McConkie contained thousands of doctrinal errors and even though it was initially quashed, it was eventually published. Several generations of Mormons were influenced by MD and its personal opinions posing as official doctrine. The institution (meaning the Church) could have insisted that the book never be published and even now, could insist that it be taken off the market. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:27:40 -0600 From: "Nan McCulloch" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Utopias > Come to think of it, though, you're going to need some flexibility in > this because you'll have certain functions that require a great deal of > mobility. Freighter Crews, long-haul truckers, theater/music/comedy > groups, Airplane crew etc. You'll need to be able to have services > available for them, so you can't be entirely dependent on a local bishop > for all your needs. Of course, given adequate communication > infrastructures, mobility is less of a concern, but you still have to > have a way to allocate responsibility (stewardship) in geographically > challenging situations. > We used to run a barter business. The people who started the business were convinced that it would be the forrunner to the United Order. Anyone with goods or services could join and trade. Members could accumulate barter points to spend in the system any way they wished. It worked very well until the Government decided to tax the trades. Some clients felt that hard goods were more valuable than cleaners or pest control, but if people willingly choose to live the United Order it can work very well. Nan McCulloch - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:29:44 -0600 From: "Nan McCulloch" Subject: [AML] LARSON, _Wake Me When It's Over_ _Wake Me When it's Over_ A play written and directed by Melissa Leilani Larson Eric, thank you so much for recommending this good work. I was happy to = donate to this worthwhile project. My husband and I drove to California = the day after seeing the play and we spent lots of time talking about = it. The play is about a young man who has chronic fatigue syndrome. I = know several people who have this disease, so I have a frame of = reference. Although Ben and Grace love each other, the reality of their = complex, somewhat hopeless situation calls for more than love to exact a = solution. Their problem is complicated by Ben's overprotective mother. = Much of the storyline is revealed through Ben's frequent dreams. Both = Ben and Grace feel extreme guilt. Grace avoids having a life that = doesn't include Ben, because she feels sorry for him. Ben feels guilty = that he is preventing Grace from having a full life. Even though their = intimacy has dwindled and their communication is suffering, they still = have a sweet rapport with each other. Even when their strained = situation is most obvious, the love that they feel for each other comes = through. They are darling together. Ben has joined a chat room to talk = to other people who share his disease. He establishes a friendship with = a girl and they frequently talk. One day Grace, unknown to Ben, joins = him and azure_skies for a conversation. I was sure that Ben and Grace = would rediscover their lost communication through this chat-room. It = seemed obvious where this triangle was heading. I was so relieved that = I was wrong. The outcome of the play is not predictable. The play is = well written, well cast and well directed. Melissa shows wisdom beyond = her years. I liked the slides showing the chat-room conversation. That = worked well for me. My only problem was combining the two plays. = _Cinderella_, although entertaining, was more like an entreact. It was = not a compatible or satisfying companion piece,=20 Nan McCulloch - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:07:27 -0600 From: "Nan McCulloch" Subject: [AML] David Wilcox Lyrics I love all music, but the music I love most has great lyrics. Because I = am old I know I am outnumbered here, but have any of you listened to any = of David Wilcox songs? http://davidwilcox.com/HIUTTL.html When I hear = these lyrics, I think of Steve Perry's music. Does this music speak to = any of you as it does to me? Nan McCulloch - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:44:59 -0700 From: "Kathy Fowkes" Subject: Re: [AML] Linda ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ (Review) > At 12:53 PM 7/15/02 -0600, you wrote: > >. And while I admit that I haven't researched modern revelation, the > >idea of the gathering to Jackson County seems more folklore than > >doctrine--yet that gathering in that place is a consistent element of Mormon > >apocalyptics. > > I see no reason to believe that the whole eleven million of us will trash > what we have and migrate to boring Missouri. This planet is covered with > children of God who need what the church has to offer, and they'll need it > even more in the dark days. The faith will be where the stakes of Zion are. > The church has not spread over the earth only to contract to a single > (overcrowded) space at some point. > > barbara hume, frustrated with ideas that float around freely with nothing > to hold them up unless they are her own half-baked notions Given all the prophecies regarding Zion that exist, and aren't very hard to find, really (D&C is a great place to begin), and after reading all your commentary regarding what y'all seem to deem folklore, I have one question. In your estimation and conversation, does prophecy that is not in the four standard works, or even prophecy that *is* in the four standard works, equal folklore? Because if it does, I object to the definition. Given what's been said in this discussion, I haven't seen a big distinction made between the two, and it's confusing the heck out of me. The building of the city of Zion *is* doctrine and has been since Adam's day. It's been prophecied in all four standard works, as well as spoken of by most of the prophets since Joseph Smith. In 1833 the location of the New Jerusalem, the City of Zion, was given by revelation, right down to the temple complex, how the city would be layed out, and quite a bit more. Wilford Woodruff testified later: "The plan which he presented was given to him by vision, and the future will prove that the visions of Joseph concerning Jackson County, all the various stakes of Zion and the redemption of Israel will be fulfilled in the time of appointed of the Lord." (_Journal History_, April 6, 1837.) I think the problem comes when we misunderstand the various meanings of Zion. Zion is the pure in heart, and Zion the City, the New Jerusalem, is more correctly called the center-stake or center place of Zion. Like putting up a tent, the stakes of Zion in which we all live have been placed before the center stake goes up, raising the tent, to be semi-symbolic. the City of Zion, the New Jerusalem prophecied to be built in Jackson County, Missouri, and its temple, will be built when enough members are sufficiently pure enough to do it. It cannot be built up without a people pure in heart, and sanctified sufficiently to do the building of it. (D&C 105:5). Only some members will be called to live there and build the city and the temple to which the Lord will come prior to His coming to usher in the Millenium. Like Linda said, some are already there paving the way. I know many of you have little respect for Gerald Lund's fiction. I think he's done shoddy work there myself (and now that he's a general authority I hope I won't be struck by lightening for stating that opinion yet again ;-)). But his compilation of prophecies regarding the second coming of Christ is in my estimation very well organized and worth owning and reading. _The Coming of the Lord_, first published by Bookcraft in the 1971, and back in print since 1996, is great for those of us who don't have time or the means to delve into volumes and volumes of archives and old journals, etc. I know many of you have resources regarding all these prophecies, but I don't. I've been very grateful Lund put this together. It's an easy read, but very eye-opening. He uses little commentary, IMO. Just enough to organize it all, without getting in the way of the quotes themselves and the prophecies they contain. It goes right to the sources from which the folklore originated. For me, getting to read the prophecies in their original wording, and having their original sources documented, has been a delight. But the scriptural prophecies are sufficient evidence that we as a church and people look to the East with hope and expectation (and for me after visiting there last year, with longing) for very good God-given reasons, and not for some fog-ridden folklore that's been handed down--using the literary definition of folklore, ie: an often unsupported notion, story, or saying that is widely circulated. (merriamwebster.com). The building of Zion, the people as well as the city, was the prophet Joseph's main goal -- sanctify the people so they could build the City of Zion and be ready for the coming of the Lord. It's so well documented it isn't funny, so how is this folklore? Kathy Fowkes - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #779 ******************************