From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #831 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Friday, September 13 2002 Volume 01 : Number 831 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:39:33 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] RE: Definition of Mormon Well, I reckon, having started this durn thread, I should toss in one more = little ol' 'pinion on her. =20 Ivan suggests that I'm watering the term Mormon down so much that = absolutely anyone could say 'I'm Mormon,' and there'd we all be, stuck = with that person as a Mormon. Is that that huge a problem? Are there = really clamoring multitudes of folk up to their elbows in evil who want to = call themselves Mormon? =20 Okay, so there's the occasional Ted Bundy sorts. Don't y'all start = throwing stuff at me, but isn't it pretty healthy to acknowledge that some = Mormons are also evil? That Mormonness does not convey righteousness goes = without saying, but that Mormonness equates to some basic standard of = decency seems similarly questionable. Joseph Smith was a Mormon. He was = the prophet of the Restoration and we quite properly revere him. So was = John C. Bennett, who had a few things he needed to work on. Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:30:40 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] Box Office Report Sept. 6 02 <<< PRODUCER SEEKING LEADING MAN (non-SAG): We can't say very much about this, because the official announcement hasn't been made yet, but we have recently received word of a new multi-million-dollar LDS-themed major motion picture that will soon go into production. [...] Incidentally, the word is that this film is not just a one-time effort, but a series of films are planned to follow. >>> Could this be anything but a film version of the Work and the Glory? I suppose it could, but Work and the Glory is the likeliest guess. Chris Bigelow - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:31:54 -0600 (MDT) From: Fred C Pinnegar Subject: Re: [AML] Civil Rights and Mormon Lit I would like to see that manuscript when it is ready for the light of day. Regards, Fred Pinnegar, Owner FCP Publishing/ Sharpspear Press > harlowclark@juno.com wrote: > > > I recall D. Michael Martindale and Jason Steed talking about collecting > > stories from non-white, non-Utah Mormons a couple of years ago, and I > > wonder how that project is coming. We need it, and more like it. > > Died on the vine, mostly from being choked by other cares of the world. > But it's something I wouldn't mind reviving. The two potential editors > also preferred different approaches. Jason was more interested in > collecting existing published stories. I was more interested in > soliciting new ones. > > -- > D. Michael Martindale > dmichael@wwno.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:01:24 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] MARTINDALE, _Brother Brigham_ (Review) I remember reading this manuscript in a writing workshop and REALLY liking it, although the last third or fourth or so needed more work. It was quite compelling and unpredictable, and largely satisfying. Very entertaining and even titillating to read. It was one of those books I thought about between reading sessions and looked forward to getting back to. My biggest concern with the book was just not being able to envision who would ever publish it, because it's written for a Mormon audience (I would wager) but has too many graphic and other uncomfortable elements for any of the mainstream publishers. But I too would like to see it go somewhere. Signature? Chris Bigelow - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:35:00 -0400 From: "robert lauer" Subject: Re: [AML] Neil LaBute Interview in _Salon_ Margaret Young wrote: >Hoping not to sound too judgmental here, but my personal policy is to NEVER >speculate about the "real" reasons for somebody's excommunication etc. I >consider those particular proceedings absolutely confidential. I couldn't agree more. In 1984 I was excommunicated at my own request over doctrinal differences. I had embraced Evangelical Christianity, was planning to go to Duke University and get my Divinity Degree and, having returned to the United Methodist Church, was employed as the Lay Pastor of a small congregation in Rescue, Virginia. I eventually decided against going into the ministry, and over a decade later, after finally gaining a testimony of the Restored Gospel, was rebaptized back into the Church. During my years out of the Church, I occasionally communicated with a few faculty members at BYU. Sometimes there was a space of several years between those communications. What I found fascinating was these faculty members had been told "the reason" for my excommunication from OTHER BYU faculty members with whom I had had absolutely NO communication. For instance, it appears to have been common knowledge that I was excommunicated because of sexual immorality. (Since I had been a theatre major, it was "naturally assumed" that I was gay.) The other story was that I had been excommunicated because I had secretly been a Mormon Fundamentalist (aka a polygamist). The other rumor was that the Church had excommunicated me because I had written a play, "Digger", about Joseph Smith's career as a money-digger. The reality was, of course, much different. I was morally clean at the time of my excommunication. I had never been a Fundamentalist. In January 1983 the Church requested a copy of "Digger" to read. Their response was that, aside from some different interpretations of a few historical events, the play was not "anti-Mormon" or offensive. My excommunication was at MY request. It was over doctrinal issues: I had become a Born-Again Christian. And my Bishop and Stake President spent nearly two years trying to talk out of leaving the Church. When I told them that I did not believe in Priesthood, that I didn't believe there was such a thing as "One True Church"--their response was that as long as I intended to obey the commandments (which was indeed my intention), the doctrinal issues were not important. At that time, considering myself an Evangelical, I was prepared for quite a different experience. Part of me wanted the local Priesthood to condemn me; that would have played into the image of the Church as an abusive, tyrannical cult. But my Bishop, Stake President and High Council were loving, tolerant and, even after my excommunication, wrote me and encouraged me to come back to the Church or at the very least continue to obey the commandments. What I find interesting is that so many members who have never been involved in an actual excommunication paint a much uglier picture of process than is actually justified. Granted, the experiences of others may have been different from my own.But when I hear members speculate about the reasons for another's excommunication or disfellowship, I tend to lose respect for them. To be blunt, I'm tempted to regard them as either petty or simply idiotic. ROB.LAUER _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:46:32 -0600 From: "Paris Anderson" Subject: Re: [AML] Sept. 11 Tape How 'bout George Harrison's "Here Comes The Sun?" That's all I can think of. Funny how your mind works sometimes. That's a beautiful guitar. He was a beautiful man--Concert for Bangladesh. I cried when he died. Here comes the sun Here comes the sun and I say It's alright Paris Anderson - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 01:01:09 +0000 From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Richard Rust [MOD: A correction: Richard Rust's column here on AML-List was, as I understand, based on, not the precursor to, his book.] I saw this article about Richard Rust and his continued teaching while battling with cancer in today's LDS-News, the Chruch's daily list of news stories about the Church and members. Richard was a participant in AML-List in the early days, writting a column on literary aspects of the Book of Mormon, which eventually was published as _Feasting on the Word: The Literary Testimony of the Book of Mormon._ Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book and Provo, Utah: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1997. http://www.news-observer.com/front/News/story/1715365p-1730851c.html A list of his Book of Mormon-related publications is found on Gideon's Mormon Literature page: http://humanities.byu.edu/MLDB/Who/B-RUSTRI.HTM Also a 1995 talk on LDS literary criticism: http://humanities.byu.edu/MLDB/rustlds.htm Andrew Hall Fukuoka, Japan _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:38:28 -0600 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] MARTINDALE, _Brother Brigham_ (Review) I thought that was a great review, too, Michael. Isn't it great when somebody in a public way actually understands what you are trying to do? Thanks to Jeff. Marilyn Brown - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:00:52 -0700 From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Definition of Mormon I knew Gary Gilmore was a Mormon, but I'd be very surprised if Ted Bundy was. I recall nothing about that in all the publicity I heard about him. Notably, when he wanted to repent (sort of) he asked to see an Evangelical Christian, James Dobson. Are you sure about this information? Richard Hopkins - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:16:56 -0700 From: "Kim Madsen" Subject: [AML] Jeff CALL, _Mormonville_ Found! My search is over. Just wanted everyone to know that Deseret Book in Bountiful came through after all, and called me today saying they had received the 10 copies of MORMONVILLE (by Jeff Call)that I ordered for my bookgroup. And this without ever talking to the manager, confirming the order or pre-paying as I was told I would have to do. I rushed right over and picked mine up tonight. I'll be reading into the wee hours. Kim Madsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:11:46 -0700 From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Sept. 11 Tape All the suggestions have been great. How about a classic, one without lyrics to wrap it all up. "Liebestod (sp?)," from Wagner's _Tristan and Isolde_. In the opera it is the entrance of Tristan and Isolde into heaven. Give's me goosebumps. Richard Hopkins - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:07:33 -0700 From: The Laird Jim Subject: Re: [AML] Brewvies on 9/9/02 9:48 AM, Thom Duncan at ThomDuncan@prodigy.net wrote: > > THE LAIRD JIM: > > It is very hard not to feel superior when around people who are drinking > or drunk. > > ME: > > I find it very easy. I just think of my many quiet sins (such as > unrighteously judging others who drink) and my feelings of superiority > disappear. Also, I will have to take issue on your apparent equating of > drinking and being drunk. Agreed, sloppy drunks who try to have sex > with a lamppost can be pretty pathetic but I've supped with many a > wine-bibber who remains charming, entertaining, and cogent throughtout > the evening. That being said, I believe there is great wisdom in living > a life of abstinence as long as we avoid the trappings of believing that > all others who don't share our views are benighted sons and daughters of > Satan. > > Thom > > I don't mean superior in any religious sense. It's purely a negative thing. I'm not as weak, not as stupid, not as maudlin, not as depressed, not as neurotic, etc. I don't believe your own assertion, however. Anyone who claims that pride is easily overcome is deceiving himself. Like me old missionary companion who said "Elder Wilson, I consider myself a very very humble person, and you should follow my example and be humble like me." I always always lose humility contests because I'm too arrogant...and proud of it. Jim Wilson aka the Laird Jim - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:14:06 -0600 From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Sept. 11 Tape Sand and Water by Beth Neilson Chapman All alone, I didn't like the feeling All alone, I sat and cried All alone, I had to find some meaning In the center of the pain I felt inside All alone, I came into the world All alone, I will someday die Solid stone is just sand and water, baby Sand and water, and a million years gone by I will see you in the light of a thousand suns I will hear you in the sound of the waves I will know you when I come, as we all will come, Through the doors, beyond the grave All alone, I heal this heart of sorrow All alone, I raise this child Flesh and bone, he's just Bursting towards tomorrow And his laughter fills my world, and wears your smile All alone, I came into the world All alone, I will someday die Solid stone is just sand and water, baby Sand and water, and a million years gone by - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:19:25 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Sept. 11 Tape On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:46:00 -0400 Tony Markham writes: > Anyhow, would anybody like to suggest a song or two for my project? > I'm all ears! Reading all the responses, I'm aware of how little I know of contemporary music, but I do have strange eclectic tastes. Oddly enough, when I think of death and music to comfort me, I think of "Go to Hell," by Ryan Shupe and the Rubberband. Their "Snow" is a fine elegy--an intimate song for a dead prophet, very much a counterpoint to the sense of immense tragedy 9/11 carries. I love Cherie Call's "Lasagna" from her _Taken_ album, though I've only heard it on the _Encore '99_ sampler album, and "The Potato Song," which I've heard a few times on Schickele Mix, but I don't know who wrote it. (Speaking of Schickele, how about "Iphigenia in Brooklyn" by the youngest and oddest of J.S. Bach's twenty-odd children, P.D.Q.) Julie De Azevedo's "Out of Jail." Kurt Bestor's "Song of the Children." Something by Steven Kapp Perry, maybe "I'll Love Whatever's Left of You." "Todd's Song" on Envoy's Stand Up album "Ondi-Ahman" by Kenneth Cope >From Clayne Robison and Reid Nibley's Sabbath Song I would choose "Prayer of Dedication," Robert Manookin's setting of Orson Hyde's prayer on the Mount of Olives." I particularly love the image in these lines: "Incline them to gather That they come like clouds of doves to their windows" I also like the way Clayne sings "If a Man Die, Will He Live Again," from Cundick's _The Redeemer_. Maybe "The Ballad of Dan Jones" or "The Martyrdom" from D. Michael Martindale's General Prophet Joseph Smith. Of non-LDS work (an oxymoron since that would be defined as everything that is not virtuous, not lovely, and not of good report) the first thing I think of is something from _The Lotte Lenya Album_. "Vom Ertrunkenen Maedchen" (Ballad of the Drowned Girl), is a haunting song, as is "Lost in the Stars." I might choose "The Saga of Jenny" for grim comedy. Something from Penderecki's Utrenja (The Entombment of Christ) might be good, but I only heard part of it 25 years ago, when Tom Rogers played some for me. >From _Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris_ I find "Marieke" particularly haunting, especially the Flemish(?) chorus. >From Bernstein's Mass, "A Simple Song," "I Don't Sing Gloria Anymore," and "How Easily Things Get Broken." "Unchained Melody." "Slip Slidin' Away" by Paul Simon (I think) Patsy Cline, "Just a Closer Walk with Thee," and "Crazy." Something from Stephen Sondheim, maybe from "Four Black Dragons" from Pacific Overtures ("And we thought it was the end of the world -- And it was."), or "Liaisons" from A Little Night Music, or something from Sweeney Todd, The Demon Barber of Fleet Street. Maybe something from The Foggy Bottom Boys, and something by Lotte Lenya. And, of course, there should be something from John Kander and Fred Ebb's soundtrack for Scorcese's film _New York, New York_, perhaps "You Brought a New Kind of Love to Me" because every time I hear Liza M. sing that the spirit of Groucho comes upon me and I sing, "If the old moo-cow could moo like thou she'd moo a lot sweeter than she do now. You brought a new kind of mooooooood to me." "But the World Goes 'Round" is also a very nice song. I would love to see that film again. I wonder if it was released on video. And something by Lotte Lenya. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:15:45 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] World Without Credit [MOD: I'm glad to see that Harlow does, in fact, give me credit--so to speak--] On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 I wrote: On Talk of the Nation yesterday (Aug 8) Neil Conan (the non-barbarian) asked "How will you commemmorate Sept. 11?" And one of the things I'm going to do is think about this question: If your neighbor had just been murdered would you go to your neighbor's family and say, "The best thing you can do in response is spend a grundle of money, because if you don't the murderers have won." ++++++++++++++++++ And I have been thinking about that all day, as I worked in the light rain up in Midway to scape some land and get part of an old pasture ready to plant asparagus. I hoped to write this this morning, but instead wrote a letter to my missionary son, Mason (Argentina, Bahia Blanca) who only gets to read and write his e-xalted mail on Wednesdays. It occurred to me about 20 years ago that the Church's strong emphasis on staying out of debt was a fairly radical economic doctrine if you apply Kant's dictum and say that when you make a choice you have to imagine what kind of world you'd live in if everyone faced with the same choice were to choose as you're about to choose. Credit is so tightly integrated into our economy that if people stopped using it that would have a drastic effect. Our standard of living as a nation would go down. And that's one of the main things our prophets and apostles emphasize when they talk about not going into debt: Don't keep up with the Joneses (or down, if you're keeping up with Davey Jones), accept a lower standard of living. Be satisfied with it. So here's my invitation to the rest of the List. (A love letter, actually, but treat it as an invitation, and forgive me (and remind me) if I leave your name out.) Imagine a world without credit. What would it be like? I suspect the images would be either utopic or dystopic. Utopic if you imagine the kind of world Neal A. Maxwell did in _Of One Heart_, where there's no need for borrowing because there's no poverty and no envy. Dystopic if you imagine the kind of world Mohammad Yunus writes about, the world billions of our Father's children live in, where they can't get any kind of economic power to pull themselves out of poverty because the people who hold power think the poor aren't worthy of being pulled out of poverty. I've been imagining what list-members might write all day. I think Robert Lauer and Eric Samuelsen would write plays with very different economic and political assumptions. Linda Adams might include something about that in Prodigal Journey. Jacob Proffitt could write about his decision to take a lower standard of living rather than work Sundays. Our twins, Marilyn Brown and Margaret Young might write about the United Order and the Church in South America. Barbara Hume has a unique position because of her interests in Sci-fi and romance. Sci-fi is well known as a social comentating genre, romance less so. Maybe a sci-fi romance? I'd love to see what Thom Duncan and D. Michael Martindale and Scott Bronson come up with, and to hear Debra Brown's new song, "Credit-swilling Mormons." It would be neat to see what Scott Parkin comes up with (genetically damaged stripper meets salvific cat?), B.J Rowley could give it a time travel twist. Alan Mitchell could talk about trying to get Richard Dutcher to do a screenplay for a movie about life without credit. (This is not supposed to get funny--I'm serious (Oh, it's not funny? Good. I had myself worried there for a minute.) This could be very much a part of Ed Snow's novel about missionaries and homeless people in Boston, _The Mission Home_. Cathy Wilson could write some fine poetry around the issue, and several could write about credit and baby exhaustion. I'd be interested in what Darlene Young and Angela Hallstrom and Gae Lyn Henderson have to say. I'd love to see the Native American fantasy setting Susan Kroupa might give. It would be interesting to see what Ethan Skarstedt and The Laird Jim would do, as well as Grant Taggart, Eric Dixon, Fred Pinnegar and Ivan Wolfe. I wonder how Darvell Hunt treats related themes in his Mormon Christmas Carol? Eric Snider's comments would be worth looking at, and John Remy could make some interesting parallels between living without credit and living as an atheist with a testimony. I would think Jerry and Kathy Tyner could write movingly about living without certain kinds of emotional credit that come from being involved certain ways in a culture. Jerry's sentence from 3/26/02 still haunts me (partly because it sounds like myself): "Having lived with a husband who you thought was a flake for so long (22 1/2 years) and then realizing there really was something wrong (I thought I was a flake as well) is a very interesting experience." Julie Kirk could do a street painting. Kathleen Woodbury, Kathy Fowkes and Kari Heber would have something to say, I'm sure, as would Larry Jackson. I'd love to see how Levi Peterson would treat this theme. Lu Ann Staheli could give a perspective on how (lack of) money affects teenagers. Indeed, I'd be fascinated by what the whole YA contingent came up with. I think the last 20 pages of Sharlee Glenn's _Circle Dance_ (the part that should be a whole nother novel) is a vision of a world that doesn't need credit because people had a sense of being common-bonded. I'd like to see what Laraine Wilkins or Lynette Jones, or Annette Lyon or Marianne Hales Harding, or Karen Tippetts or Nan McCulloch or Rich Hammett would say. I suspect Paris Anderson's vision would be wonderfully disquieting and dark, and William Morris's Kafkaesque or Borgesian. Paul Browning could write about his neighbor Shirtless (say it ain't so) Joe, Richard Dutcher could do the film and Preston Hunter could give us a box office ranking on the project. Robert Slaven could talk about credit and grape juice, and I'm sure Ronn Blankenship and John Williams would have good things to say. Richard Johnson could set a story in Finland and show us what that hammer in the outhouse is used for. Russ Asplund could work it into a Rabbi story, and Susan Malmrose and Terry Jeffress would have good things to say. That's a survey of my in-box. I've included Clark Goble and Tony Markham, haven't I?Then there's Chris Bigelow, Todd Petersen and The Sugar Beet crowd. Jana Remy could assign book reviews and Jeff Needle turn in 10x as many as he signed up for. Andrew Hall could poll us about it, Morgan Adair could put together a bibliography, and Marny Parkin could collect the best of it for Eerie Aunt Hums (Hey, this could become the basis for a themed issue. What think ye?) And of course Jonathan Langford could keep it within list guidelines and give the idea a sci-fi slant. And we could probably get Hollow Cluck to write an AML Symposium paper. Harlow S. Clark, who is serious about this--or as serious as he sometimes gets. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:30:26 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Sept. 11 Tape Smashing Pumpkins: "Today." Gustav Mahler: "Kindertotenlieder." Rufus Wainwright: "Hallelujah" Woody Guthrie: "This land is your land." Fatboy Slim: "Praise you." Keb Mo: "Last Fair Deal Gone Down" Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:57:06 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Definition of Mormon This discussion reminds me of something I saw in Seattle 11 or 12 years ago. I was over in the Green Lake area, maybe shopping at Albertson's there (the one where Matthew later overflowed his diaper and had poop dripping from the shopping cart by the time I could rush him to the car, where he squirted me good and brown when I got the diaper off--he loves that story, and it wasn't the only time), and for some reason I walked up the hill and past the Seventh-Day Adventist church. It may have been a Saturday, but I don't recall any signs of a service in progress. There were some Adventists picketing the church, though. Seems there was an Adventist congregation in Hawaii, and the SDA Church was suing them to stop them from using the name Seventh-Day Adventist. The picketers felt such action was less in the spirit of Adventism and more in the spirit of a big business protecting its trademark. They didn't want to see their church acting as if it was a giant corporation. I appreciate Hugh Stocks Sept. 10 story about Sterling McMurrin's devotion to the Church, especially this comment, "he watched every session of every conference and wrote copious letters to the speakers who touched his heart; he was deeply hurt at any suggestion that he would ever do anything to harm the church." The story goes that David O. McKay told Bro. McMurrin that if he was hauled before a Church court he, DOM, would be the first witness on McMurrin's behalf. > freely denied any belief whatsoever in the religious > claims of the church, and who almost certainly did not attend church > meetings or participate in church functions during much of his life. Most interesting. There was an independent student paper for almost two years at BYU in the early '80's called The Seventh East Press. It irked the administration by being a little too independent. When Blake Ostler published an interview where McMurrin denied belief in the Book of Mormon as an angelic gift ("I decided at age 10 that angels don't bring books to boys"--close paraphrase) the administration used that as an excuse to ban the paper from campus. When Blake reprinted the interview in Dialogue no-one said a thing about it. I had sort of assumed from the controversy surrounding that ban that McMurrin's views were previously unknown, but it occured to me after what Hugh says that this was already well known, and Blake could hardly avoid it and be a responsible interviewer. I also appreciate John Remy's Sept 9 comment: > I myself am an active Church-goer, show up to help with moves on > Saturday mornings, pay my tithing and call the family to prayer > every morning and evening, but I have no testimony of the > truthfulness of the doctrinal teachings of the Church of Jesus > Christ of Latter-day Saints. I consider myself an atheist, but I > can swap missionary tales and reminisce about my conversion > years ago. > Am I Mormon? Would I be presumptuous if I answered that question from what Luther called the epistle of straw. What an odd thing to call an epistle you don't like, since straw was what the Egyptians took away to punish the children of Israel in their brickmaking. If straw is necessary for the congregation of Israel to do its work, what would it mean to the doctrine of said congregation if straw were taken away? Anyway, that great strawman Seamus said, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this: To visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world" (James 1:27). Notice that pure religion is not a matter of belief, but of doing. I also love Thomas Hardy's "The Oxen." Christmas Eve and twelve of the clock. "Now they are all on their knees," An elder said as we sat in a flock By the embers in hearthside ease. We pictured the meek mild creatures where They dwelt in their strawy pen, Nor did it occur to one of us there To doubt they were kneeling then. So fair a fancy few would weave In these years! Yet I feel, If someone said on Christmas Eve, "Come; see the oxen kneel "In the lonely barton by yonder coomb Our childhood used to know," I should go with him in the gloom, Hoping it might be so. Considering the ferocity of some of Hardy's depictions of society and religion I find that last line tremendously comforting, "Hoping it might be so." Hoping. Like the last line of Stephen King's "Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption:" I hope. (I just noted Hardy's dates 1840-1928--88 years. My father recently turned 2 years younger than that. I hope he lives two or 12 or 20 years past that. I don't think he will, though. He has a heart murmur. I feel cheated--he had uncles/great uncles reach 100 and beyond--and I fight the feeling that if he really loved me he wouldn't be in such an all-fired hurry to return home.) Hmm, is it good form to end a post with a parenthesis? Well, maybe parenthetical is what it feels like to always ask yourself if you can be called a Mormon or not. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:47:23 -0700 From: "jana" Subject: Re: [AML] Jeff CALL, _Mormonville_ I just finished reading _Mormonville_. It's very funny. I had to keep reading passages of it out loud to my husband. While there were a few elements of the book that were a little too sweetly wrapped up at the end, I'd give this book a hearty thumbs-up. Jana Remy - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:37:55 -0700 From: "Jerry Tyner" Subject: RE: [AML] Sept. 11 Tape A few more suggestions: My Life ("There are places I remember...") The Beatles Yesterday - The Beatles On Your Shore - Enya (Watermark album) Just Passing By - Doug Walker (Stone in the River album) Hie to Kolob - Dave Tinney (He Leadeth Me album) El Shaddai - Dave Tinney (Same) Face to Face - Dave Tinney (same) In Remembrance (Album by Tim Windwalker Crawford) Sacred Spirit 1 and 2 (Albums - Native American Chant) Voices (Album CD by Douglas Spotted Eagle - featuring Closer to Heaven; = Tears Alone; I Miss You; and We are Still Here) Prayer of a Child (or Child's Prayer from Quest for Camelot by Celine = Dion and Andrea Bocelli_ Many John Denver and Enya albums Classical: A Time For Us - Zefferelli's Romeo and Juliet What is a Youth - Same Pachelbel Canon Toccata Fugue in D minor by JS Bach (or almost anything by Bach) Jerry and Kathy Tyner Orange County, CA - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:56:52 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Accuracy in Published Sources >There were a lot of people there but only a handful really saw what > happened. > Even those who saw what really happened probably didn't really see what happened. It's pretty much a given nowadays that even eye-witnesses differ as to actual facts. I suspect that now one really knows what really happened in totality. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:06:58 -0700 From: "gtaggart" Subject: RE: [AML] Definition of Mormon Harlow Clark wrote, "I appreciate Hugh Stocks Sept. 10 story about Sterling McMurrin's devotion to the Church, especially this comment, "he watched every session of every conference and wrote copious letters to the speakers who touched his heart; he was deeply hurt at any suggestion that he would ever do anything to harm the church." The story goes that David O. McKay told Bro. McMurrin that if he was hauled before a Church court he, DOM, would be the first witness on McMurrin's behalf." Have I been missing e-mail from this list? I'd love to see the entire story. For me, I'd never deny someone the right to call themselves Mormon, though I'd argue that they're doing so deceptively if they're at the same time actively working to harm the church. I'm thinking here of the many antis who begin their screed with, "I'm a fifth generation Mormon," then betray little or no knowledge of the Church in what they write. I've known my share of beer swillers who'd fight for the Church almost as hard as they would for their next beer. Drunk they might be, but at their core they remain Mormon. Why deny them that right just because the word Mormon comes with the smell of alcohol on it? Then Harlow quoted, John Remy's Sept 9 comment: > I myself am an active Church-goer, show up to help with moves on > Saturday mornings, pay my tithing and call the family to prayer > every morning and evening, but I have no testimony of the > truthfulness of the doctrinal teachings of the Church of Jesus > Christ of Latter-day Saints. I consider myself an atheist, but I > can swap missionary tales and reminisce about my conversion > years ago. > Am I Mormon? I agree with Harlow that "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this: To visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world" (James 1:27). Notice, Harlow wrote, "that pure religion is not a matter of belief, but of doing." I agree; in fact, I'd rather have doers of the word helping with those Saturday morning moves than those who believe they may be able to help. Finally, thanks for quoting Hardy's poem, "The Oxen." I was not familiar with it. I'm in the middle of "Jude the Obscure" right now. The poem is beautiful: Christmas Eve and twelve of the clock. "Now they are all on their knees," An elder said as we sat in a flock By the embers in hearthside ease. We pictured the meek mild creatures where They dwelt in their strawy pen, Nor did it occur to one of us there To doubt they were kneeling then. So fair a fancy few would weave In these years! Yet I feel, If someone said on Christmas Eve, "Come; see the oxen kneel "In the lonely barton by yonder coomb Our childhood used to know," I should go with him in the gloom, Hoping it might be so. Don't we all? Greg Taggart - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #831 ******************************