From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #907 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, November 27 2002 Volume 01 : Number 907 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:40:23 -0600 From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] New DB Policy Just a quick note before I go on vacation for Thanksgiving. I've been following this thread with a good deal of interest. I haven't read Evans' book either, but I get the definite idea that he might be promoting the concept that "emotional adultery"--the 'love story' in his book--as OK, and it definitely is not. So, I'm with Marilyn and Margaret on that. If that's what it is. Where immorality is shown as an acceptable alternative, wickedness=happiness, or 'covenants aren't important if your spouse is a scumbag,' then I agree that DB shouldn't carry it. (I had the same concerns with the Stansfield book _first Love and Forever._) That's not to say Evans' book is "smut" or "explicit," which it most likely is not. >>The problem is that if they won't sell Mormon Literature of a certain "type," whatever that "type" might be, other LDS publishers won't publish that "type." That gives DB extraordinary power in the Mormon publishing marketplace, and it effectively limits the freedom of expression for Mormon writers. >Dorothy W. Peterson<< This is nothing new at all. It's already true, and has been that way for years. ALL the smaller LDS publishers are *already* at the mercy of DB's willingness to carry their books on the shelves. DB's deciding not to carry a book (especially from an unknown writer/small pub. house) is the kiss of death. If you cannot market through Deseret Book (unless you *are* Richard Paul Evans and are also carried in national stores), your book will fail. I was asked to remove two fairly mild sentences from _Prodigal Journey_ before publication, just in case a reader *might* complain and get the book pulled from the shelf. The publisher could not run that risk. I understood that, and made that small concession, although I still believe the scenes in question read better with those tidbits of information than without them. Basically, I see this as an official announcement of an unwritten-but-enforced policy already in existence. The only thing new here is that they've made it public. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo/linda - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:23:10 -0700 (MST) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Adultery and Consequences > Okay, I'll take the bait. I would have been VERY surprised if Deseret > Book had decided to sell _Heresies of Nature_. It has long been my > understanding that DB has a policy on not selling Signature books. (And > incidentally, _BYU Studies_ won't review anything done by Signature.) > [Margaret Young] I assume we mean fiction on both points? I've seen DB carry nofiction by Signature, and I've read reviews of nonfiction by Signature in BYU Studies. - --ivan wolfe - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:46:42 -0800 From: "Jerry Tyner" Subject: RE: [AML] New DB Policy Katie Parker wrote: Maybe these people are shutting themselves off from some valuable = reading=20 material. To each his own. You snooze, you lose. We have our free = agency to=20 choose, among many other things, what we're going to read. That = applies to=20 everyone. Maybe some of these people will consider themselves morally = superior=20 to lowlifes who read such things as (gasp!) _The Scarlet Letter_. = Again, they=20 probably already did, anyway. Such a stance doesn't seem morally = correct to=20 me, but who am I to judge anymore than anyone else? =20 I like the way Katie put this. If those 350 people who were surveyed (I = agree with Katie - way too low a number to base any policy on) want to = narrow their reading that much it is their loss.=20 I have always abided by this scripture: D&C 130:18 - 19 18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it = will rise with us in the resurrection. 19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life = through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much = the advantage in the world to come. I, along with Katie, will never judge anyone. Everyone has their reading = preferences and has a right to choose. But, we should not narrow our = horizons or we may not find all the "Truth" that there is in the world = for us as individuals. Any guesses on if there will be a "Books Read" = section in our book of life which will have what we read, why we read = it, what we learned from it? Oh, my, another interesting vision of = Heavenly Father at his Computer/Journal.=20 I do not read Gerald Lund's books either but that is because they do not = appeal to me. I have other friends who swear by him. I would much rather = read Margaret Young's. I only go to Deseret Book down here if there is a = specific book I'm looking for which is Church published (i.e. DB or = Seagull and most of the time as reference for a talk I'm giving on a = specific subject). When I go to DB or Seagull it is for a book by an = Apostle or like the fictional books about John the Beloved by Thomas Eno = ("My Name is John", "Awakening", and "Deep Water"). I like books that = grab you right off not make you wait ten chapters to figure out what the = heck is going on. I'm that way with Science Fiction as well as any other = kind. I also go to DB and Seagull for the music and art but not for = general fictional books. I can get else where. Way too narrow a = selection to begin with. Jerry Tyner Orange County, CA - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:11:46 -0800 From: "Jerry Tyner" Subject: RE: [AML] New Age Mormons? Glen Sudbury Wrote: After all, the reasoning goes, isn't a bit presumptuous to read = literature, poets, when we already have "the most correct book ever = written?" Besides that our language of the restoration suggests to some almost an = overwhelming amount of truth already in our possession. Phrases such = as, "the dispensation of the fullness of times, the times of the = restoration of all things, a time when all that is hid is revealed, = truth floods the earth, and so forth... suggest satiety" as Dr. Terryl = L. Givens recently pointed out in a talk at BYU. =20 Western medicine, like churches, even the Church, often assumes or = pretends to have answers because it has become very good at putting = labels on problems. Literature, good literature, goes about doing good = as the Savior did. Prevention, in every area of our lives is better = than cure. =20 To me "new age Mormons" suggests a taking of responsibility to be a = prophet oneself. Of accepting the reality of the heavens being opened = not to just Prophets but that answers can come to us as we read, and = think about the words and between the lines of all good books. Great art is often produced by those who have suffered and struggled = physically and metaphysically, body and mind. Church members and the = body of the saints have suffered much of body in these latter days. I = wonder however if we have suffered enough in mind to produce the great = literature for which we hunger on this AML site and in our private = lives. =20 As I was reading Glen's post I started wondering what he was saying = (refuting some of what had been said) until I got to the end. If the = "Dispensation of the Fullness of Times" and the "Restoration of All = Things" were complete I'm sure the Prophet and Apostles would say so. We = have a long way to go. Is the time short? Want to play the "definition = of" game? My key, the one I personally use, is the constant use and exercise of = "the Gift of the Holy Ghost" in order to discern "truth". Am I going to = teach that "truth" I receive to others? Not unless I'm prompted to. I = definitely will not teach it as doctrine in Church! That is not my place = (and hopefully never will be). ;-) I shared an experience on this list that happened to me last weekend. = There were some other things that occurred around that same time that = are sacred to me which I will share only with my family and close = friends when the Spirit moves me. The overriding principle I learned for = myself last weekend was what it really means to struggle in the Spirit = for an answer. I also learned that what we need is not always what we = think we want when it comes to answers to our life's questions which = often can only come from our Father in Heaven. I could not talk loud = (above a whisper; my daughter told me my voice was cracking to which I = responded it was far beyond cracked - it was broken) for three days = after that.=20 Glen seems to ask if we as a people have suffered and struggled enough = to create great art? I think with each great work comes a struggle. Look = at the Savior's life. How many times did he go off alone and struggle in = the Spirit? And we only have a fraction of the Scriptures in our = possession. Each time we create, each time we wish desperately for an = answer to a prayer, we must put forth the Herculean effort to learn or = do what Heavenly Father wants us to do (which we were foreordained to = do) and we must be willing to pass through an emotional and physical = fire of one kind or another. I'm sure Margaret Young could tell you = about that experience. Are we, each of us as individuals, willing to = give "the uttermost farthing"? If we answer "yes", then we need to go to = the Lord and ask Him what it is we need to do and what He expects from = us as a sacrifice in return. Then great works will come forth. Personally (for myself) I know that last weekend was only a fraction and = a start of the many things I have yet to do and learn. I only pray as I = walk that "road" I am strong enough and ready for each trial as it = manifests itself. I keep reaching for that "Hand" and for the first time = last weekend I experienced my hand being held by "His". It was awesome! = I only pray I am worthy of that feeling more than just that once. If I'm = not I know I will miss it terribly. :-( Jerry Tyner Orange County, CA - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:02:40 -0700 From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: [AML] Y'All Need to Get Out More At 10:18 PM 11/21/02, you wrote: >I think Richard should use a scene like this in "Brigham City II". >It would be priceless, in my opinion. Oh! Oh! Wes pulls a guy over for speeding, and instead of showing his driver's license, the guy flashes his temple recommend. I'll bet that has happened many times. I wonder what happened to anyone who tried that on Robert Kirby in his cop days? barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:06:14 -0800 From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Levi PETERSON, _The Backslider_ "Night Soil" is my favorite. Levi won't remember this, but we met some years ago at Sunstone. He was doing a book signing, or some such thing, and I really wanted to meet him. I told him about my fondness for "Night Soil" and my displeasure with the small print in "The Backslider" . - ---------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:00:48 -0800 From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] CHEYENNE, _The Keystone_ (Review) Andrew, thank you for this review. I came close to ordering the book, after reading about in the Book of Mormon Archaeology Digest (I think that's the name of the broadside). It sounds like the stuff heartburn is made of. What I want to know is, How did you ever get a copy in Japan??? At 08:40 AM 11/22/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Title: The Keystone: The Day Alma Died >Author: b. v. cheyenne (pseudonym), with Glen E. Sudbury and >Michael E. Coones. >Publisher: Keystone Project. Salt Lake City. >2002. 749 pages. www.keystoneproject.com - ---------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:43:22 -0700 (Mountain Standard Time) From: "Brian Utley" Subject: Re: [AML] CHEYENNE, _The Keystone_ (Review) To Andrew Hall:=0D =0D Thanks very much for your honest and lengthy review of our book, THE KEYSTONE: The Day Alma Died. The authors very much appreciate your cand= or. Certainly we agree with many of your comments, particularly where editor= ial concerns are mentioned. Actually there were six editors, some with considerable credentials that worked on the book. Obviously, the copy editors left something to be desired and we are trying to rectify that in the second printing. However, as for many other issues you raise, we disagree to varying degrees. The archaic style, the didactic approach, t= he wordiness, etc., are moot considerations that we actually prosecuted with deliberation, and there may be more going on here than you realize, based= on your cursory reading---as many readers are telling us who actually are revisiting the book over and over. (Curious, that.) In this wise, it occurs to us that it might have been good for you to finish the book, whi= ch acknowledges that it merely is the first installment in what is alleged t= o be a "soap opera." The "plan" actually does come together at the end of = the "day"---as it will continue to come together in future installments. But= , that not so minor point aside, we again thanks you for your kindnesses an= d your frankness. We will certainly take to heart your suggestions as we a= re nearing completion of the second episode in the series, Children of Darkn= ess Children of Light. Many readers tell us they are reading the book not o= nce but twice, and even three and four times, finding illumination that esca= ped them upon a first reading. They will appreciate any improvements we can make in future installments of the series. And I tell you with sincerity that your comments in this regard have great worth to us.=0D =0D Your friends=0D =0D "b.v.cheyenne"=0D Glen E. Sudbury=0D Michael E. Coones=0D =0D - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:06:24 -0700 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] CHEYENNE, _The Keystone_ (Review) How come I'm still on the list? I tried to get off? I LOVE Andrew Hall's critical comments on this book! Why can't critics get it into their heads to write like this? DUMP on the bad, but then FIND SOME GOOD IN IT! I salute Andrew, and I'm going to send this to the Daily Herald to show them it can be done! Marilyn Brown - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:01:22 -0800 (PST) From: Marie Knowlton Subject: Re: [AML] Adultery and Consequences Scott wrote: This is a universe that I can get into; one where God will kill people for you so that you won't have to be a martyr for too long. (Referring to "First Love and Forever"). Yep! And I for one am sick of those "warm fuzzy" solutions (like Emily's husband getting killed in the car wreck so she can be with Michael, whom she's loved all along, anyway). Most of the time, real life doesn't work out so neatly, and we are left to chew on moral dilemmas that are far less simplistic and clear-cut. I applaud Richard Paul Evans for having the nerve to write about that in his new book. Yes, the heroine turns to another man for comfort and support. This is not adultery. Evans shows us that the characters are choosing not to violate their standards and covenants. Situations like this can and do happen. Life gets messy. The boundaries are not always black and white, the line between Christlike compassion and love not always discernable, and love has more different forms and manifestations than we can possibly analyze in a Sunday school class. I wish more of us had the courage and insight to write these difficult subjects, and to handle them in such a sensitive and realistic way, as Evans has done. [Marie Knowlton] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:05:49 -0800 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Orrin HATCH, _Square Peg: Confessions of a Citizen Senator_ On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:11:59 -0800 "Steve Perry" wrote, in the "Y'All Need to Get Out More" thread: > Like most of the "sins" of LDS folks, this one is a shared behavior > with many people in many denominations. Just last week I answered > a phone at Prime Recordings from a Protestant minister ordering choir > music by Orrin Hatch and Janice Kapp Perry. I assume that the 800 > number didn't clue him in that he was calling Utah. He said "maybe > you didn't know Hatch is a Mormon, but... he's a good man anyway." > I wanted to say "Lots of us try to be," but I just took his order and > sent him his music. > > :-) > > Steve This morning (Nov 25th) on NPR's Morning Edition Bob Edwards said, "He's the most conservative of conservatives in the Senate, but able to make coalitions with the most liberal of liberals" or something like that, and I thought, Orrin Hatch, and that's who he was introducing. Hatch has just published a new book, _Square Peg: Confessions of a Citizen Senator_. He implied that one meaning of the title is that committed liberals and committed conservatives can work together to get things done that liberals might think conservatives wouldn't do and vice versa. I don't much like Hatch's politics, but I'd like to read and review this book because a lot of what he said parallels or resonates with my sense that labels like liberal and conservative are more markers of rhetorical style than of different worldviews. Edwards asked about the word 'confessions' in the title and Hatch said he regretted his vote against Martin Luther King's birthday as a federal holiday. He said his vote was practical, that he didn't think federal workers needed another paid holiday, that it would and has cost about a billion dollars a year. He said he wasn't considering the feelings of people whose ancestors had lived under "despicable slavery," and should have voted differently. One day 12 or 13 years ago some of the people I was working with wanted to make January 15 a company holiday. I didn't sign the petition because, while it joys me to see a holiday in honor of Dr. King, I didn't want a 4th paid day off in 6 weeks and then nothing till Good Friday (not a big holiday in Seattle, but the company that bought our company and too many others to avoid eventual bankruptcy, was headquartered in Joizy, or somelikewhere where in spite of all the religious overtones they call that Friday good for a day off). Of course, it wasn't a choice between adding Jan. 15 or February-compromise-between-honest-Abe-&-cherry-chopping-George day as a company holiday, so it wasn't as if by not adopting MLK's birthday we could have had another paid day off a little later in the year. Or maybe it was a choice between holidays. I don't recall if the company was considering adding another, and I didn't discuss my reasons for not signing the petition, but I've often wondered whether I would have done a better thing by signing it. I also think about a comment I read from some leftist commentator or other, who said that the medieval (or earlier) Catholic Church instituted a multitude of holy days to limit the economic power of the lower classes, who couldn't keep a day holy and also earn money on that day. One final thing, after talking about the need to protect the rights of artists to the income that comes from their creations, Hatch said U2's Bono came to him for help on some projects having to do with African AIDS and such, and about the third time Bono came into his office he said, "Let's hear your music senator." Hatch played some. "That's beautiful, senator, but the brothers aren't going to sing it, because of who you are." Hatch asked what he should do about it. "Change your name." Bono thought about it for about 15 seconds and suggested, "Johnny Trapdoor." Hatch told Bob Edwards he had taken the advice, so if you see any songs by Johnny Trapdoor you'll know who wrote them. I wonder if they'll have music by Janice Von Trapp Doerr. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:22:35 -0500 From: "Walters, Isaac" Subject: RE: [AML] Pain and Art - -----Original Message----- Scott Parkin wrote: There's no requirement that the author suffer the pain themselves, but there is an essential need that the author have considered that kind of pain from very close and that the author be deeply (perhaps even intimately) familiar with it to portray it well. There are greater and lesser pains (I strive to be as great a pain as I can), but it seems to me that the essential requirement of conflict in fiction is dissonance--aka, pain. Maybe small pain. Maybe simple yearning. But without some darkness against which to depict the light the story stops short of great, I think. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---- I would agree that an artist must be able to understand the pain of others. Unfortunately, I think it is this sensitivity which so often leads to their own pain in the world. Riffing off your statements about dissonance, let me share my personal favorite theory of art that goes along a little with dissonance, but not quite. It comes from James Joyce via a Joseph Campbell talk on art and spirituality. Joyce says there are two types of art: good art and bad art and he associates good art with the static and bad art with kinetic. When he's talking about kinetic art, he's talking about art that attempts to move you. He says that if it tries to move you with desire then it is pornography. (Joyce's term not mine.) All advertising art falls into this category. You see the pretty woman with the teeth the same color as the refrigerator, and you suddenly have a desire to buy a refrigerator. Joyce says that if it attempts to move you through fear then it is didactic. Unfortunately, I find that most religious art produced in the church falls into the category of kinetic art. You can decide for yourself if it is attempting to move you through desire or fear or both. In contrast, Joyce says that good art is static in that it stops you and you have to deal with it before you can go on. Again there are two types. If it stops you with fascination then that is the beautiful. For me it could be a sunset, a spider spinning a web, a child asleep. Art that stops you with annihilation is the sublime. I'm not sure I understand exactly what this means, since I think I may have only encountered this one time in the arts. I do, however, associate this with my own encounters with God. At those times, I encounter something so much bigger than myself, so much beyond my comprehension that in order for me to progress, in order for me to come to a greater understanding, who I am has to be destroyed and put back together again in such a way to encompass this encounter. I believe this is what Alma is talking about when he describes having experienced a mighty change in your hearts and having the image of God engraven on your countenance. For me it is the process of revelation. I think this moment of the sublime is what you are getting at when you talk about the need for dissonance in art. I agree somewhat, but I'm almost afraid it's too small an idea in relation to the sublime. I would also point out, that while an individual may often experience pain leading up to the sublime, quite often the sublime itself paradoxically transcends pain. If there is pain, then it is swallowed up in the wonder and the joy of the new self. As an artist I believe I have made one beautiful moment that fits Joyce's definition. I have yet to create the sublime. It is my goal. Let me also strongly recommend a truly incredible book that deals with some of these issues called "The Grace of Great Things" by Robert Grudin. It deals with inspiration, beauty, and love in all creative activity and also describes common habits of great creative minds. I find this list a much more compelling idea of how an artist should live than the simple notion of the suffering artist. [Isaac Walters] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:07:05 -0700 From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] New DB Policy On Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:16:21 -0800 (PST), r talley wrote: >There seems to be some kind of notion that Deseret >Book will now decide which books we can and can't >read. How ridiculous. DB never has and never will >choose what I will read. They choose what you read if they only carry a certain selection. If you shop at Deseret Book for LDS novels, you cannot read what they do not = sell. But it's still a good point that even if Deseret Book doesn't carry a = title, it doesn't keep you from ever reading that book. When I go to Deseret = Book, it's usually because I need a cheap Book of Mormon and the distribution center is (ick) downtown. I buy books online or from Barnes & Noble and I've never had trouble finding anything that was in print. So I really don't care what kinds of novels they sell. But in my opinion the thing = to do here is write a letter if you're upset by the new policy (or a = different letter if you support it), like...shoot. I forgot who posted that nice = long letter. I thought it was ideal. On the other hand, there was some concern expressed about whether the store's refusal to buy certain kinds of books will have a negative impact= on the overall LDS publishing field. I could see this being a reasonable = fear, and I hope it never happens. >I live nowhere near a DB, but when I do go into one, I >expect certain items, just as I expect certain items >at other stores. I certainly wouldn't expect to buy a >"Happy Meal" at Home Depot and I wouldn't expect to >find something offensive at DB, I only expect Church >related materials. Then they shouldn't carry any non-LDS fiction at all and forget about the "offensive material" issue. (I hope you didn't seriously mean to imply = that anything not Church-related is offensive, because that hasn't seemed to = be your opinion so far.) I went the rounds last year with some woman in an online forum who believed Deseret Book should not carry the Harry Potter books because they weren't Church related. To her credit, she didn't believe they were evil, just not the sort of thing that, in her words, "brought the Spirit." And she pretty much thought the same thing about books in general: if it wasn't published by a Church member on an = explicitly LDS subject, it shouldn't be in Deseret Book. I don't know what I think about that. I'm influenced by the fact that I just don't shop there much any more, and that it is a very good source for doctrinal works and = Mormon, um, kitsch. But one final question: Who gets to decide what's offensive? Is = something only offensive when it's explicit, or is it okay to depict illicit love = if you pan away before two people start doing something nasty? I find the movie "Titanic" so offensive that I refuse to see it regardless of = whether the naughty bits are edited out. Does my definition win, or what? I'm asking seriously now, and I'm not making fun of you, Rebecca, because I really do want to know what you think. Melissa Proffitt (yes, that was really three final questions) - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #907 ******************************