From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #5 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, April 2 2003 Volume 02 : Number 005 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:33:26 -0700 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Elizabeth Smart Robert Slaven wrote: > PS-Is there any LDS fiction that deals with rape in our culture? I'd love to see some. Hi Listers! I'm still lurking. (Trying hard to keep from getting involved with all of your wonderfully intelligent discussions so that I can concentrate on my writing, but I do read them rapidly and find you all fascinating!) But I just can't help responding to this post. Yes, BRIGHAM CITY is "fiction" (though film) and it's about rape. We do close our eyes to it, and wish it would go away. Sexual abuse is rampant right now. There has been a streak of acceptance of sex outside of "lawful commitment" in films, tv, art, that has fed promiscuity. AS Brigham Young said, we can portray evil if we call it evil. We have certainly ceased to call sex outside of law and certain "bounds" "evil." Most romances in today's world culminate in the sexual act upon the first flush of infatuation. Most films promote the idea that you are stupid to adhere to the old mores. And it is the promotion and focus upon sex that is poisoning our society. (Not sex itself, which is great, but the misappropriation of it.) Yes, Robert, as I write the novel, (I'm on page 120 and haven't even reached the screen play yet) I am dealing with sexual promiscuity, child abuse, and rape in Richard Dutcher's outstanding film BRIGHAM CITY. There could be more LDS literature dealing with it (if hopefully Deseret Book would allow it on the shelf). We as a people cannot ignore it. The Elizabeth Smart debacle is just one of thousands of problems. And like Wes Clayton in the film, we often find ourselves over-trusting or uncomfortably looking away. When it hits so many times in your own experiences with acquaintances and family you get a knee jerk! Profoundly! Marilyn Brown - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 09:45:22 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male Clark Goble wrote: > _True Lies_ notwithstanding, James Cameron always has had strong female > characters. (And even there the film was partially about the > transformation of the Jamie Lee Curtis character into an empowered > woman, despite some underlying misogyny) Something I've always admired > in him. One could argue, as I mentioned, that some shows have tried > this. i.e. _Charlies Angels_. _Charlie's Angles_ explored the empowerment of bimbos, not women. > _Aliens_ was amazing because it was a fully empowered female, but one > that still recognized some gender differences. Indeed the underlying > theme of the movie was motherhood. The final battle is the battle > between two mothers - Ripley with her adopted daughter and the Alien and > her brood. What was so fascinating to me was how Cameron managed to > make Ripley powerful *without* simply adopting a male view of > empowerment. > Compare this to what Cameron does in _Terminator 2_. There the mother > character is dehumanized by adopting a masculine view of female > empowerment. She has rejected her motherhood to prepare her son, thus > adopting a kind of stereotype of fatherhood over motherhood. It sounds like you're implying that the _Aliens_ empowerment was superior to the _Termintaor 2_ empowerment. Maybe from the point of view of social engineering, but from a literary point of view, both are equally desirable. The empowerment of Ripley in _Aliens_ was true to character. The empowerment of Sarah in _Terminator 2_ was also true to that character and the correct sort of empowerment to use in that film. Leadership was forced upon her, and leadership was a foreign concept to her up to that point. She dealt with it by going to the extreme: becoming strong in a masculine, stereotypical way. For Ripley, leadership was already a part of her character, and it was better integrated into her whole human identity. She could be strong and gently nurturing at the same time without falling out of character. It took a crisis of conscience for Sarah to rediscover some of her gentler side. Both characters are excellent ones. Both contribute to a film literature that encourages the empowerment of women. Even Curtis in _True Lies_ fits this mold. There _are_ weak women who are treated condescendingly by men. To have one in a film, then have her discover empowerment, is a great thing. That's how literature should be. We don't want across-the-board Ripley's in all our stories. That would be nothing more than a politically correct swing to the opposite extreme. We want literature that represents the whole spectrum of human experiences, with each story addressing one small part of that spectrum. We even need stories that show weak women remaining weak women throughout their lives, because they exist. What we don't want is too much of one representation throughout the literature. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 22:02:59 -0600 From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Physics and AML-List At 12:32 AM 3/28/03, you wrote: >Not to put down Linda's writing, but the last days kind of speculation >doesn't excite me. (I like her book because of the story and characters, >not the speculation, which is all wrong. I know--I've seen the future >myself in my own speculations.) That's mostly all LDS spec fiction has >done so far. I almost skipped this thread, then I caught my name here. Thanks, I think? Just to make sure this is clear: DUH, my speculation is "all wrong!" I did that on purpose. Do you think I'd be dumb enough to publish what Really Will Happen? Even if I _knew??_ Argk! The last thing I need is a wide-eyed cult-following claiming I'm a prophetess and throwing flowers in my hair wherever I walk. Linda Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://www.alyssastory.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:57:46 EST From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] _Kadosh_ (Movie Review) Thanks, Stephen, for bringing this film into our discussion. I saw "Kadosh" at the Tower Theater in Salt Lake back in 2000. I highly recommend the film to LDS writers and filmmakers. I don't recommend the Tower Theater, however. You'll enjoy the experience of "Kadosh" much more at home on your television screen. I agree with Stephen's conclusion that the orthodox Jewish culture is the film's antagonist. That's pretty much the only way to read the film. And I agree that the orthodox community, if they know or care about this movie, must feel angered and betrayed by the filmmaker. Was he ostracized from his community? Was the orthodox Jewish community, in fact, his community? I don't know the background of the film. What I find even more interesting than Stephen's post, is Jacob's response to Stephen's question: "Was it worth it, in the eternal scheme of things, for Gitai to have alienated himself from his spiritual community in order to create such a magnificent work of art? I mean, as far as the religious community of his youth is telling him, he's probably damned now. I wonder, has he sold his birthright for a mess of pottage? In the end, is this film, with all its power, pottage? Jacob said (I'm paraphrasing) that it is a moot question because the orthodox Jewish doctrine is wrong, the community is worshipping in falsehood, and therefor Gitai has done nothing wrong and is better off outside the community. Interesting. I see Jacob's reasoning, but I can't help recoiling at the underlying arrogance of the statement. Orthodox Judaism is as true to its adherents as Mormonism is to its most devoted adherents. The same mental and spiritual and social anguish that a Mormon feels in leaving his community is felt by the Orthodox Jew who is leaving his community. Losing faith, and losing one's community, is an emotionally violent experience. A Jewish artist/writer/filmmaker creating from his experience and faith and community deals with the same things a Mormon or a Catholic does. The dangers, the emotions, the fears, the struggles...they're the same. To the artists. To minimize another artist's experience simply because his doctrine and his community are, in our eyes, "wrong" is a dehumanizing act. By lessening his experience, we distance ourselves, we empathize less. We certainly are not comforting the afflicted or "mourning with those who mourn." I have more to say on this subject, but I have an appointment I have to get to. More later... Richard Dutcher - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 15:25:11 -0700 From: "th. jepson" Subject: Re: [AML] Validity of Memory and Nonfiction . Mr. Manning's comments regarding my first scriptural example (the people of Benjamin crying as one voice) seems very likely--that King Benjamin had a written covenant the people were asked to accept and that, perhaps, they all spoke it together simultaneously. This is a very reasonable explanation, and I adopt it as my working assumption regarding these verses. As for my second example (the runners sent to investigate the alleged murder of the chief judge), I claimed that the thoughts expressed between these runners as they ran full tilt were probably the truth of their sentiments and not the actual words. If I understand his rebuttal, Mr. Manning agrees with me. What I believe he is actually taking issue with is my word choice, suggesting as I did that Mormon "got away" with something. What I suggested he "got away" with was telling the truth without using a word-for-word transcription of the runners' actual dialogue. Not that he somehow lied and invalidated the Book of Mormon or even 1/10th of that statement. I'm concerned that anyone interpreted me in this way. In fact, the whole purpose of my original post (which I thought I titled "Validity of Memory and the Book of Mormon") was that nonfiction does not mean taperecorded transcription, but actual events, honestly told. This is the contract with the reader Mr Manning spoke of, and I agree with him that Mormon never broke that contract. I don't know of any "discrepancies" in the Book of Mormon that need rectifying, and I certainly don't amuse myself by pretending I would be the one to so rectify. And that's the truth. - -------------------theric jepson _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:06:00 -0700 From: Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Books on the Bedside Table >_The Runelords: Wizardborn_, by David Farland: Not only is The >Runelords series arguably the best fantasy I've ever read (I haven't >decided if I like Lord of the Rings or Alvin Maker better, and I >don't really see why I should choose.), it contains the two best >romantic subplots I have ever read in any genre (Borenson/Myrrima >being the second one). In this latest installment, Gaborn is still >trying to figure out what being the Earth King is all about, and The >Great Big Bad Guy really isn't as Big as we thought he was. When, >oh when, is the fourth book coming out? There has to be one! We >needs it. We wants it. It is our precious. The fourth book, _The Lair of Bones_, is supposed to be out in September. You know that Dave is LDS, right? And the last Alvin Maker book, _The Crystal City_, is supposed to be out in November. Yes! I can finally read the series (I stopped after the second book to wait for the series to be finished). And the sequel to Anne Perry's _Tathea_ should also be out in September. Marny Parkin [MOD: Sadness. If I understood Scott Card correctly at this year's BYU sf&f symposium, _Crystal City_ is *not* the last book in the series...] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:13:09 -0500 From: "Jamie Laulusa" Subject: Re: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male Deborah Wager: >I even recall seeing something like it in a movie once, where a beautiful, >intelligent Woman fell for a younger, insecure boy who thought the 3 best >books ever written were the scriptures. :-) Yeah, he did get a testimony by >the end of the movie and he grew up a little, but I'd put it in the same >category. > But I seem to remember that she had some issues of her own along the lines of conciet and arrogance that she grew out of before the end of the movie. In fact, her character started out a lot like Cammie in "Single's Ward", but she got over it and was nice and I liked her a lot by the end. I think the relationship in "God's Army" was pretty nicely balanced. And I remember the line, "The Bible, The Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants. Yeah, those would definitely be my choices," as being very sarcastic. He struck me as more of a "Catch-22" sort of guy. Flippant. And he probably read Animorphs as a kid. JMO ~Jamie Laulusa _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 18:20:26 -0700 From: "David Hansen" Subject: RE: [AML] Words and Music I enjoyed R.W.'s comments about music - but I was confused about his Wagner paraphrase, "[Wagner}observed than words and music are incomplete art without each other, that they naturally fit together to give a more complete aesthetic experience." Following which he gave a fantastic review of the Orchestra at Temple Square's recent concert which had precious few "words" involved. I'm one to believe that words and music can go together to create true communication, but that neither are necessarily "incomplete" without the other. In my view, it all depends on what you want to communicate. Music certainly is more abstract, and in that sense is more adept at communicating concepts than words. Words, while not devoide of emotion, are more suited to communicating facts than music. One of the enticements and problems with popular music today, in my opinion, is that the music itself communicates on an immature level. I compare it to having a conversation with a 13 year old boy. "How was your day?" "Fine." "What did you do?" "Nothin'." I also was at the OTC concert and echo RW's comments on the fantastic performance. Having performed with Barlow Bradford for 10 years in a different capacity, I feel a much greater understanding for the power of music, by itself, to communicate things that can only be known emotionally. The OTC performance was bittersweet for me knowing that it would be Barlow Bradford's last performance with OTC. (He didn't mention it at the concert, BTW.) It seems that the church has recently changed its policy from wanting the "finest orchestra in the world" to wanting the "finest VOLUNTEER orchestra in the world." (One wonders whether the church would ever settle for the "finest volunteer accountants" or the "finest volunteer lawyers," but that, I suppose, is another thread.) The Monday following the concert, Barlow formally resigned from the Tab Choir effective April 1. The Tab Choir's new mission statement talks about the missionary efforts of the Choir. In essence, it says that it's the dog and pony show to get missionaries in the door to teach the gospel with "words." This belies the fact that the Tab Choir and the OTC can teach the gospel very well with their music. Of course I'm not saying that we don't need FT missionaries. But rather that music can be a powerful force to communicate to people the concepts of the gospel where words fail. We need them both - combined and separate. Let me also be the first to say that I was overly optimistic several years ago when I joined this list about the new Tab Choir changes and the new church theater in the Conference Center being a new boon for arts and artists in the church. Hah! Eric Samuelsen (or should I say, Oscar Robertson :)), among others, took a definite "I'll believe it when I see it approach," and tried to limited avail to temper my enthusiasm. Unfortunately, it turned out that these concerns were all too true. Perhaps if I didn't care so much about the status of arts in the church it wouldn't have been such a blow. All is not lost by any means, but it just means that I can't see it happening under the church's institutional control. I'm glad you found a choir, RW. If you ever want to come to Salt Lake to sing, we'll save a spot for you in Utah Chamber Artists. (Who BTW are performing on May 12 at the U's Gardner Hall at 7:30. Tickets $15, $10 for students.) Dave Hansen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:37:37 -0500 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: Re: [AML] Books on the Bedside Table Jamie said: > _Mystique_, by Amanda Quick: I picked it up expecting a fantasy, and got a > sex-laden romance instead! How vexing! Mom liked it, though, she went and > got Quick's entire library. How interesting to be on the receiving end of family stories told in public. Especially ones exaggerated a bit. I believe what we actually checked out was the book-on-tape read by Barbara Rosenblat--and that is why I enjoyed listening to it. I love Barbara Rosenblat (and George Guidel). I must admit to finding explicit sex rather embarrassing to read, and even more embarrasing to listen to, though I have friends who say the steamier it is the better they like it. I listened to a couple Amanda Quick books-on-tape; I've been practically living in the car the past few months. I had a much harder time trying to read her--just not a gripping read. I had the same reaction to Harry Potter. I thought I should read the books, since all the kids were, but couldn't get past a few pages. I ended up listening to them on CD and enjoyed them quite a bit. Tracie Laulusa - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 15:10:25 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] FW: Kim CLEMENT, "Hole in the Roof" Jongiorgi Enos wrote: > > This is an unusual post. I don't know if Jonathan will find it > appropriate, but I feel it speaks directly to several of the issues that > concern the list, so I pass it along for your (all of your) judgment and > comments. Appropriate? It was one of the most appropriate messages I've ever read on this list. It's appropriate and relevant not only for LDS artists, but all LDS members generally. And to think it had to come from a Christian of other persuasion than ours. I could give this article as a sermon in sacrament meeting without changing hardly a word (including "shit", which was a powerful way to illustrate my objection to bean-counting morality). A lot of listeners would be shocked, but I think most would get the point. (And I'd probably never have to speak in sacrament meeting again.) This article has also fired me up to get started writing the next novel I've been planning. Tnat novel will accomplish much of what this article is talking about--at least _I_ think it will. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:50:35 -0800 From: Robert Slaven Subject: Re: [AML] Artists' Personal Lives From: Robert Slaven > Subject: Re: [AML] Artists' Personal Lives > Look at the big honkin' fuss so many people made when the Beatles came out > with 'Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds' and there was all this fuss about the > Beatles using pot or LDS or whatever. But both Berlioz' _Symphonie ^^^ Oy! Is that some kind of Freudian slip where I'm associating the gospel with hallucinogens? Or did I just have the 4th Star Trek movie running through my head? %-) Methinks I need more sleep.... ObLiterary: My wife telling me tonight that after I finish the two database contracts I'm working on, I should work more on my stories and invite her help, especially with my weakest area, dialogue. That sure came out of the blue! I've got a long-ish SF story in my head that relates to the whole Jackson County thing, and a novel about cloned prostitutes (don't ask!) that's sort of a sequel to a short story I've already written (2 rejection slips down...). We'll see if any of that bears fruit. Robert - -- Robert & Linn-Marie Slaven www.robertslaven.ca ...with Stuart, Rebecca, Mariann, Kristina, Elizabeth, and Robin too For when two beings who are not friends are near each other there is no meeting, and when friends are far apart there is no separation. - Simone Weil - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 2003/03/14 - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:37:34 +0000 From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: Re: [AML] War and International Liberal Mormons John Williams asked: I guess a more broad question might be, does someone who does not speak English have any access at all to the more complex, heterogeneous intellectual history of Mormonism that has emerged in the last fifty years? In Japanese, no. There was a intellectual Mormon journal published in 1988-2001 called "Mormon Forum" which had some translations of things going on in the English-speaking Mormon intellectual world. As one might imagine, it had a very small subscription base. The Japanese members who I have talked to about the war seem a bit confused about why the US thought it was necessary, and are very concerned, but are not actively speaking up against it at all that I can see. Kind of like the general response in Japan as a whole, there has been some protests, but not a big upsurge of opposition, like there is in other parts of the world. Andrew Hall Fukuoka, Japan - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:30:22 -0800 From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: RE: [AML] Packaging of Fiction Many of the older books are published in regular-sized packaging. And, as such, they are generally less expensive than their larger cousins. Sadly, some of the authors have, like Lund, become writing machines. Their books become less interesting as time goes on. I recently found the first nine volumes of the Left Behind series at DI. The first six were boxed; the other three were loose. All in mint condition. Naturally I bought them. I may even read them. I had previously read 1 1/2 of them, but can't remember much about them. - ---------------- Jeffrey Needle jeff.needle@general.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:37:32 -0800 From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: RE: [AML] Anita STANSFIELD, _To Love Again_ (Review) This review is very much appreciated. It gives me something to look for in her books. The comment below was puzzling. If Deseret Book is willing to special order books, why remove titles from their review archive? These were books sold by their outlet, and they are still willing to order them. Very curious indeed. - ---------------- Jeffrey Needle jeff.needle@general.com > -----Original Message----- > The customer reviews on deseretbook.com were interesting, at least until > the book and its reviews were removed from the website. While most > customer reviewers of Stansfield's books rave about the high emotional > intensity, real life problems and solutions, and high quality of > her writing, > two of the three reviews of this book were somewhat negative. > Admittedly, two is a small number to base any sweeping judgments on, > but they are nonetheless interesting. This quote from one of > them says it > all: "This book left me feeling bothered and troubled, and left > behind it an > obvious lack of the Spirit in my home for several days." This sort of > material is something that many readers of LDS fiction just > aren't looking > for. > - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:14:31 -0700 From: "Eric Russell" Subject: Re: [AML] War and International Liberal Mormons I guess a more broad question >might be, does someone who does not speak English have any access at all to >the more complex, heterogeneous intellectual history of Mormonism that has >emerged in the last fifty years? > >John Williams >--UC Irvine > No. At least not in Brazil. Scriptures, the Liahona, institute manuals and a few books by Talmage. That's it. No Deseret Book materials. But then, I really don't think there would be much interest even if there were. Very few reach out to things such as the Talmage books, much less things further outside the standard circle. Very few have access to any internet connection and exceedingly few have the extra money to pay for something as peripheral as Mormon themed literature if it did exist in Portuguese. Even fewer have the academic or intellectual interest to do so even if they could. Also, church culture hasn't evolved enough that something like a "liberal Mormon" even exists. I don't think they would understand it if you tried to explain. Right now a "liberal Mormon" in South America would be someone who drinks, goes to church on occasion, and thinks "tithing" means pocket change. Sure, people have different opinions about the war, but one's opinion on the matter is about as religiously and socially significant as your favorite kind of ice cream. It doesn't mean anything. I really don't think there is currently any social demand for any such liberal or academic outlet. There might be for that random intellectual, but right now "Jesus the Christ" fulfills the needs of the intellectual fringe. Basically, if the literary Mormon community ever reaches South America, it won't be for a very long time. Eric Russell _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:29:27 -0700 From: "Eric Russell" Subject: [AML] RE: New Mormon Lit Forum It all sounds like a good idea. But there's something I still haven't figured out: what kind of intelligent comments really need to be said that can't be said on the AML-list? Eric Russell _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 23:58:04 -0700 From: "Nan McCulloch" Subject: Re: [AML] Conservative Literary Theory? Yes, I love to read Camille Paglia and darn it, I love to read William F. Buckley as well. Nan McCulloch - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 00:24:18 -0700 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Artists' Personal Lives - ---Original Message From: Robert Slaven > Many, many, *many* people in the world think so. They=20 > forgive Kurt Cobain for taking drugs and being unpleasant and=20 > blowing his brains out. They forgive Jimi Hendrix for=20 > smashing guitars and choking on his own vomit. They forgive=20 > Michael Jackson for being, well, Michael Jackson. And they=20 > forgive Roman Polanski for taking advantage of a 13-year-old. >=20 > Are we Mormons doomed to artistic mediocrity because we=20 > haven't had a Holocaust? Because we don't generally go out=20 > and get drunk/stoned/raped/raping/whatever on our nights off? Everybody has *some* suffering in their life. Everyone has bills to pay = and a number of unpleasant individuals in their lives. I think you need to evaluate what kind of a bar we're trying to raise here. Are we looking = for a cop-out to explain our lack? Or can we find counter-examples that = would be more instructive? Many artists didn't suffer *that* = much--Michelangelo, Da Vinci, Shakespeare. Pleasing a patron was a pain and all, but hardly something that puts them out of our reach. I don't think we need to = suffer more and I don't think we've been all that mediocre. I mean, 99% of everything produced is crap. I think we have a bit of an advantage as = only about 90% of LDS stuff is crap :) Jacob Proffitt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 23:57:59 -0800 From: "Jongiorgi Enos" Subject: Re: [AML] BofM in Mormon Lit Lisa Tait asks: "What are some other BofM stories that might lend themselves to fictional treatment?" Some that I've thought about: Gideon Abis Hagoth Amaleki (son of Abinidom) Coriantumr vs. Shiz The wars of Captain Moroni Moroni (son of Mormon) and those pesky 40 years he wandered as a loner between his first burial of the plates and his final comments... Just to name a few. Jongiorgi Enos - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 01:12:32 -0700 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Conservative Literary Theory? - ---Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen >=20 > Point in part is, for a lotta folks, when you write=20 > 'conservative literary theory' they read 'reactionary=20 > fundamentalist literary theory.' I mean, conservatism is in=20 > part cultural, a reaction against certain presumably=20 > retrograde cultural trends that can easily (and not always=20 > inaccurately) be demonized as 'anti-family.' We see it a lot=20 > in film criticism, or television criticism. In Mormon=20 > cultural circles, there's a lot of anti-TV rhetoric and a lot=20 > of anti-Hollywood rhetoric; it even surfaced here, on the=20 > List, when we got into the R-rated movie thread (which=20 > believe me I don't want restarted). Like it or not, that=20 > rhetoric is usually labeled 'conservative.' Bill Bennett is=20 > usually labeled a 'conservative cultural critic.' =20 That's mainly the liberal view of conservative criticism. I don't think it's anything that would resonate with or engage conservative = literature. I'll explain that better below. > If y'all don't want to go there, and I sense you don't, you=20 > need to clarify that position. There are actual ideas behind=20 > the ideology which we call political conservatism. Those=20 > ideas could well provide the philosophical basis for literary=20 > criticism. So who are you citing? 'Liberal' criticism, I=20 > gather, is the stuff derived from Derrida and Foucault and=20 > Althuzzer and them thar guys. Real philosophers, whose ideas=20 > have very broad implications and applications, which is why=20 > post-modern and post-structuralist ideas permeate every part=20 > of the academy. So who are your guys? Camille Paglia,=20 > maybe? She's a self-declared pagan and lesbian, but she=20 > loathes Foucault and is not an uninteresting thinker. =20 > Levinas? But be careful there, we lefties have already claimed him. =20 >=20 > Interesting project, though. Keep us posted. Well, I *am* thinking mainly in broad neo-con terms. I think you're = kind of fighting the last war with the whole "anti-anti-family", "preserve = tradition just because" thing. Most conservatives I respect have moved deeper = than that and are quite comfortable in a modern world of cultural upheaval = and diversification. As such, we'd look to figures like Andrew Sullivan, = P.J. O'Rourke, Steve Forbes, and yeah, Camille Paglia (she isn't so much conservative as she just comes up with some of the most interesting = ideas). I'd claim Derrida, though conservatives would corrupt his ideas by re-inserting some of the universalism he's breaking down. In fact, that might be an interesting way to define conservative literary theory. You could call it neo-post-modernism--concerned with the distance separating "other" while reaching out towards universal chaos-touched themes of = shared culture and identity. Jacob Proffitt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:47:00 -0700 From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] War and International Liberal Mormons John Williams said: Nearly every poll confirms nowadays that just about 7 of every 10 Americans s So, when my home teachers explain that D&C 98 justifies the use of preemptive violent force in Iraq (seriously, I'm not kidding, they shared that just before the message on Family Home Evening), I'm certainly shocked, but not shaken by it. Because I am situated firmly within a solid discursive community of people who do not think that way, I feel a kind of solidarity. I am also not so easily swayed by talk of how patriotism and nationalism are paving the way for the preaching of the gospel in Iraq. In other words, I may be only 1 in every 10 Mormons, but I do have access to a valuable discursive connection with those other 1's. I think you raise some really important issues here. We had one member of this list from outside the U.S. for awhile but now he seems to have dropped out. I believe that members of the church in other countries do not have a chance to hear the 10 percent view. In fact, I feel that only an occasional post on this list gives me that 10 percent view, even though I strongly am in that camp. Rather, my community at the University of Utah for example is one that tends to believe that all Mormons share the 90 percent's views and they therefore do not easily find much commonality with Mormons. In fact the constant "in your face" nature of religious difference in Utah tends to polarize people into camps so strongly that listening to alternative views is very difficult. I obviously need to read my issues of Dialogue and get a subscription to Sunstone if I want to survive in the church. My family and church friends and my ward members seem to think so differently than I do. I feel more and more isolated and more and more like I don't belong. On-line community can help. But is it enough? I think real face to face conversation and friendship is what I need. It feels like writing on a list like this, where I probably am still in the minority (we have strong conservative voices here) just aggravates people. I like dialogue and discussion and I enjoy reading the other points of view but I also want to belong. Let's face it the sense of community and belonging that the church provides is one of the strongest positive things that people experience from membership. But when you start to feel that you don't belong, it goes in exactly the other way. In other words, I need people and where am I going to find them? More and more the people that think like I do are not LDS. I keep trying to keep a foot in both camps, but it is pulling me apart. So thank you John Williams for giving me a a chance today to feel not completely alone! Gae Lyn Henderson - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:06:10 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Artists' Personal Lives Susan wrote, re: Polanski and The Pianist: >Why give not him an Oscar, then, if it's such a great film? (I haven't = seen >it, I'm taking your word for it. :) Great question. But, see, the notion of a 'best film' or 'best director' = is essentially preposterous, as the Oscars proved this year for the = umpteenth time. The Pianist won the Oscar for Best Screenplay, Best = Director and Best Actor. But it didn't win Best Picture. So how can a = film be the best written film of the year, with a superb screenplay = realized by the best directing job of the year, and with the leading actor = giving the best acting performance of the year, and it's still not the = best picture? I guess that darned sound editing really musta let it down. I thought all five films nominated this year were excellent films. I saw = all of them and loved 'em. But if, instead, the five films nominated had = been Unfaithful, Insomnia, Punchdrunk Love, Adaptation and About Schmidt, = I would have said the same; they nominated terrific films, and I'd have = been happy if any of them had won. =20 Quick aside: actually, I did think this year that one film was in fact = vastly superior to the others, so much so that it almost needs its own = category. And I also knew it wasn't going to win. I'm referring to The = Two Towers. Peter Jackson's achievement in those films is so remarkable, = I think it's getting overlooked. Dick Stuart hit 66 home runs in the = minor leagues one year, back in the early '60's. It didn't get him a = major league job. Nobody thought of him as a major prospect. His = achievement was so astonishing, they tended to write it off as a fluke, = and get all excited instead about some prospect who hit 35 homers. (I = know, I know, you baseball fans out there are going to point out that Dick = Stuart's nickname was Dr. Strangeglove, that there were reasons why he = didn't make it to the Show. The analogy only holds up so far, I admit = it.) =20 Point is, you're more or less picking one really good film and honoring = it, and if you're going to do that, I think character counts. I think it = matters. If Martin Scorcese had won for Best Director, I would have been = thrilled, not because Gangs of New York was a great film (I'd put it in = the 'noble and ambitious failure' category), but because he's a great = director, with a slew of great films under his belt, and it'd be about = time. I think everything should count, basically, and that's why I didn't = have a problem with Halle Barry winning the Oscar last year, not that her = performance was so stunning she HAD to win it, but because black women = have been historically overlooked, so why not count that too? The Pianist = was a wonderful film, and it was beautifully directed. Ten other films = were as good, and as well directed. So count everything, and don't give = the Oscar to a convicted pedophile. Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #5 ****************************