From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #78 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Tuesday, June 10 2003 Volume 02 : Number 078 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:26:25 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Dan BROWN, _The Da Vinci Code_ ___ Barbara ___ | And why would Jesus leave two women to be widows, knowing | he was going to be murdered and had no wordly goods to | leave them? ___ Remember that the early Christians lived a form of the united order. So all things were held in common. Thus this really wasn't that big of an issue. ___ Barbara ___ | Does the Bible ever say Mary Magdalene was a prostitute? Or | is it one of those notions that spring up, such as that the | sin in the Garden of Eden was a sexual sin? ___ It's likely impossible to discern that. Some see it on the basis of John 10. But that is problematic for many reasons. The tradition certainly was dominant in Gnosticism and potentially from an early period. But they had a Madonna/whore dualism due to their views on matter. (The whole issue of chastity is fundamentally tied to matter) But of course appealing to the Gnostics is problematic. Also one might expect that anti-Christians would make such comments. Just think of all the anti-Christian comments Jewish rabbis said about Jesus. ___ Barbara ___ | Polygamy was not customary at that time among the Jews, | was it? ___ It was uncommon among the rich and virtually non-existent among the poor. I ought to look it up before speaking, but I seem to recall one of the complaints about Herod being his polygamy. If there was polygamy we'd expect some comment on it somewhere. But we don't find it. On the other hand the early Mormons might simply point out parallels with polygamy in the pre-Utah period where it too was done in secret. But I personally think that when Orson Hyde, Orson Pratt or Eliza R. Snow bring up Christ as being a polygamist they are simply proof-texting to justify their own practices. It is hard to read that back into the early texts just because Mary and Martha are mentioned. ___ Barbara ___ | It does seem to me that a marriage, even in that misogynistic | culture, would be important enough to mention in Jesus' life | story. ___ Well the early Mormons did argue that it was mentioned in the story. The marriage feast where the water was turned into wine was Jesus marriage. They also saw the final act of Mary anointing Jesus' feet as significant and the first appearance of Jesus after the resurrection as significant. (Without speaking of the significance) But you are right, the main argument against Jesus being married was the fact that it isn't unambiguously mentioned. Clark Goble - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:52:19 -0400 From: Sam Brown Subject: [AML] Re: Restrictions on Being Alone Hello, Following this thread vaguely, it's struck me that these restrictions we impose (probably justly on our clergymen, probably inappropriately on ourselves) on friendships between marrieds of opposite sexes is indicative of a much larger problem in our society, the sexualization of encounters/relationships. As I may say some controversial things, I should note that a) I'm a happily married hetero, and b) I'm politically and socially very liberal (and don't require others to be either a) or b)). Oh, yeah, and I think adultery is horrible, vile, and the most heinous sexual relationship between consenting adults, though I don't think society should regulate our sexuality. A few scenarios. 1. I'm at church with my brother. We scratch each other's backs. A member of the audience angrily growls that he's going to "pound the homos." 2. I'm at church with a close male friend, and we give each other back rubs. A female member reprimands us for the "appearance of evil." 3. Male characters in a fiction piece I'm writing touch a lot (never any pudendal contact). Readers of the piece call the contact "confusing," and "homo-erotic," which were not my intent. 4. A friend's father was a bishop in a Western ward. He takes on a recent divorcee as a project for service. He ultimately leaves his wife for this younger woman. 5. A man is distracted by the beauty of his brother's wife and finds it difficult to carry on normal conversations with her. (multiple permutations here) 6. A wife shares a hotel room with an old male friend. Her husband doesn't mind, but her family is scandalized. They demand that she give up old friendships with males. 7. A woman complains that she is deprived of male friendships other than her husband. She finds little sympathy from her peers. 8. A cabbie explains to me in detail (the same day another cabbie shares similar insights) that it's not infidelity unless you love the person you're with, and that men are evolutionarily required to have sex broadly because their capacity to orgasm is indifferent to the identity of the partner. I haven't worked this out yet, though I'd like to approach it somehow in fiction. Our sexualization of relationships ironically neuters our attempts to build friendship. I miss touching my male friends, something that is so charged in current society that I risked being physically attacked by enforcers of a homophobic status quo. I think heteros would benefit vastly from increased capacity to touch non-sexually, as I feel more rooted and connected when I'm able to be affectionate with my friends than when I'm not. I think we lose out on enormous potential sources of good learning and feeling when we sexualize relationships between men and women who are maritally attached to someone else. Our incapacity to understand and deal with the vagaries of physical attraction hinder our ability to have close relationships across the sexes. I encourage my wife's friendships with other men because I know what we share goes beyond sexual attraction and shared interests. I'm not threatened. The problem is in marriages at risk, self-centered individuals poorly invested in the marital relationship. There the intrusion of the simplest similitudes of the marriage covenant from outside (sexual attraction, time spent in proximity, similar interests) has great capacity to disrupt and destroy. So the question, as it so often does, goes something like this: how do we establish a system that can help to protect the weak (those who would sexualize non-sexual encounters or could not distinguish heterosexual friendships from marital relationships) while not forcing mature individuals to sacrifice normal and appropriate intimacy? The current approach carries a spiteful subtext of woman as temptress/succubus that shares a surprising amount with chador and other repressive approaches to female modesty. I don't think there's a great way to resolve it on a social level. I think there are ways to do it on an individual level, with scrupulous attention paid to the health of one's own marital relationship. Attempting, with spouse present, to listen to another's spouse and learn about them as humans, picturing women as men and vice versa, then thinking through how that would affect interactions. Having single people over of both sexes, sharing friends as a couple. The individual who referred to someone as "Sister Smith" perpetuates a way of thinking that is, in my view, petty, smug, self-righteous, and alienating. I hope there will be a future moment when the individual could apologize to the people so casually branded with a prophylactic Scarlet A. - -- Yours, Samuel Brown, MD Massachusetts General Hospital sam@vecna.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:12:45 -0700 From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] SSA in Mormon Lit Thom, The theory doesn't account for you. That's why I'm not sold on it myself. I would, however, venture to say that no theory can explain everyone and no theory can be completely applicable to a given person. I doubt any of the theories I've enumerated would be the sole factor in deciding anyone's sexual orientation. I suspect it's a combination of a lot of things in any person. I'll even add that each theory is more based on political biases than on science, including the born-that-way notions. I suppose one of the main reasons I don't subscribe wholly to any of those ideas is because I would hate to be so easily explained. Rex - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:13:57 -0400 From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Sickbed Reading & Viewing Eric, I figure you've seen most of the mainstream stuff that's worth seeing and only some off-beat straight-to-video or limited-release may have slipped past you. That said, I have to second, third, or fourth the _Donnie Darko_ recommend. I only heard of it when it showed up on cable and the description was so far from the substance of the film that I nearly passed it over. An amazing film. For reads, I'd highly urge you to grit your teeth and try to overcome a wise aversion to sci-fi/fantasy. I love it, but it's mostly a waste of time. But a big exception is LDS writer David Farland's (Wolverton) _Runelords_ series. Pay no attention to the embarrassing artwork on the covers. These are fine and moral books that carry a real indictment against capitalism. Heal, Heal! Tony Markham - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 08:16:43 -0700 From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: Re: [AML] Dan BROWN, _The Da Vinci Code_ >>Although I can >>remember his grandmother telling me Christ couldn't have been married to Mary >>Magdalene because she had been a prostitute. It had to have been Mary and >>Martha. Barbara Hume asks: >Does the Bible ever say Mary Magdalene was a prostitute? Or is it one of >those notions that spring up, such as that the sin in the Garden of Eden >was a sexual sin? Er, pardon the pun? The Mary Magdalene tradition conflates Mary Magdalene (Matthew 27:55) with the "woman in the city" (Luke 7:37-50) who annointed the Savior's feet and with Mary of Mary-and-Martha fame. The word "prostitute" is never used in scripture, though the unnamed woman in Luke IS described as a "sinner." You may decide for yourself whether or not they are all the same woman. I think the best argument in favor of the conflation, and the belief that Jesus would have been married to said conflated woman, is that observant and devout Jews do not ever touch a person of the opposite sex to whom they are not married. No, not even a handshake. So THERE, those of you who argue over the propriety of men being alone in the room (or car) with their non-wife. Orthodox Jews would say you don't go nearly far enough. Quit shaking hands! - --lmg - --------- OUR NEWEST WRITING PROJECT: Homeschooling Step by Step, Prima Publishing, Spring 2002. Everything you need to know about how to homeschool legally and effectively! How does your state rank? What's your child's learning style? What about college? Find teaching tips, teaching strategies, and more than 100 solutions to homeschooling's toughest problems! - --------- A message from LauraMaery (Gold) Post Web site: E-mail reply: - --------- . - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 08:34:30 -0700 From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: Re: [AML] Dan BROWN, _The Da Vinci Code_ >And why would Jesus leave two women to be widows, knowing he was going to >be murdered and had no wordly goods to leave them? Say, could that be a >reason to bring back to life the brother they lived with, and who most >likely provided for them? Actually, why leave one widow? Why marry more >that one woman anyway? Polygamy was not customary at that time among the >Jews, was it? Virtually ALL men marry knowing they'll be leaving a widow. From an eternal perspective, that's not really a factor, is it? Besides, Jewish law explicitly provides for widows. Jesus DID have brothers. WRT your question about the practice of polygamy under the Roman occupation, you'll find this web site educational: . - --lmg - --------- OUR NEWEST WRITING PROJECT: Homeschooling Step by Step, Prima Publishing, Spring 2002. Everything you need to know about how to homeschool legally and effectively! How does your state rank? What's your child's learning style? What about college? Find teaching tips, teaching strategies, and more than 100 solutions to homeschooling's toughest problems! - --------- A message from LauraMaery (Gold) Post Web site: E-mail reply: - --------- . - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 12:56:35 -0600 From: Cathy Wilson Subject: [AML] Re: SSA in Mormon Lit Rex writes: In many ways, it confounds me that the gay community doesn't latch onto an >environmental cause as its preferred explanation. There is still room in such an >explanation to hang upon it calls for tolerance, respect, and equal rights. >There is still room to say they don't know what causes it but that people should >respect their right to choose how they will deal with it. Most gay people I've known have experienced some kind of early sexualization in their lives. IOW, they've had early sex experiences. (It may be that people aren't going to call these experiences abuse; that's another topic). I feel that we learn sexuality the same way we learn everything else; by watching and by experience. I think that in some religious points of view, as in some Catholic thought, masturbation and same-sex experiences aren't equal sins as hetero-sex. It could be a very interesting exploration in story or novel, how an adult excuses him/herself and proceeds to sexualize a kid. Cathy Wilson - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 08:54:18 -0500 From: "Preston Hunter" Subject: [AML] GREENAWAY, _The Tulse Luper Suitcases 1: The Moab Story_ (Movie) Latter-day Saint characters, including "bad guys" and a love interest for the film's hero are featured in a new film that was screened at this year's Cannes Film Festival last week. Peter Greenaway is a British filmmaker who now lives and works in The Netherlands, where he has been able to obtain funding for his films. The new film that he screened at Cannes is "The Tulse Luper Suitcases, Part 1: The Moab Story." It is the first part of an 8-hour trilogy. The trilogy is part of a larger project which includes an extensive website, a video game, books and 92 DVDs. According to IMDb.com, the budget for this film was $10 million. That may b= e the budget for the entire 8-hour trilogy, which I think was filmed all at once, and simply split into 3 films because 8 hours is too long for a singl= e film. This film is Greenaway's 4th nomination for the Golden Palm (Palme d'Or), the top award at the internationally prestigious Cannes Film Festival top prize. Greenaway was previously nominated for "The Draughtsman's Contract," "The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover" and "Prospero's Books." - - Preston Hunter Here are some excerpts from various articles about the film: http://www.screendaily.com/story.asp?storyid=3D12773 The Tulse Luper Suitcases, Part 1: The Moab Story Jonathan Romney in Cannes 05 June 2003 Dir: Peter Greenaway. UK-Neth-Sp-Lux-Hung-It-Ger-Russ. 2003. 126mins. The project revolves around the career of adventurer, collector and polymat= h Luper, a figure who flitted in and out of Greenaway's early films. The stor= y traces Luper from childhood in Wales in the 1920s, through his adventures i= n the Moab Desert, Utah, to imprisonment in Antwerp railway station in 1938. Hunting for vanished cities in Utah, Luper (Feild) falls foul of the crypto-fascist Mormon family Hockmeister, after glimpsing the vampish Passion (Dharnernas) in her bathtub. Luper is captured and submitted to various indignities, but hits it off erotically with Passion. *** http://www.nowtoronto.com/minisites/cannes/2003/report0524.php CANNES DAY 11 Saturday, May 24 CANNES, France =AD Staggering into the light after 126 minutes inside the min= d of Peter Greenaway is an experience as surreal as any three Fellini movies.= The Tulse Luper Suitcases - Part I: The Moab Story is the beginning =AD the end will come Greenaway knows when and in what medium =AD it could conclude i= n a website, or a DVD-ROM, and may well. It=B9s a thin, repetitive drama =AD youn= g Tulse lives in a red brick rowhouse, wants to find lost things, goes to Uta= h to find lost cities, wanders into an extremely dysfunctional Mormon family = =AD Greenaway has something like Lars Von Trier=B9s vision of America as a place of baroque yahoos =AD and winds up in Belgium writing on natural history for The Times on the eve of WWII. I think. by John Harkness * * * * http://www.red-mag.com/may29/moab.html theReel =A0 Moab Desert and LDS Church Receive New Interpretation in New Cinematic Art Project By Jeremy Mathews For the first part of his ambitious project about a man who spends his life in prisons, concrete and abstract, UK director Peter Greenaway chose Utah a= s the key location. The typical Utahn, however, won=B9t likely be proud of the association since the state isn=B9t exactly shown in a loving light=8Bunless Mormons stripping a man, painting honey on his... and tying him to a pole i= n the desert is a nice light. =B3The Tulse Luper Suitcases, Part I. The Moab Story=B2 played Saturday in competition at the Cannes Film Festival and marks the beginning of a trilog= y that is only part of a giant multimedia project that includes 92 DVDs, an expansive Web site and a video game. The project is a giant biography of a fictional writer, loosely based on Greenaway himself, who spends his life traveling from prison to prison, never able to escape trouble... In the 1930s, the young Luper finds himself in Utah, where he encounters hi= s first imprisonment after the punishment his parents gave him as a child. After he=B9s caught looking at a Mormon woman bathing naked in the middle of the desert, Tulse is arrested, charged with trespassing, tortured (includin= g the aforementioned honey-on... stuff) and beat up. Numbers appear on the screen to count the number of times Tulse is hit, which is at about 40 when the first film ends. The Moab desert is based on the account of a man who hasn=B9t been there, so it looks like a combination of Spanish and Egyptian deserts, with trees and other things. Only a few still photographs show Moab as we know it. Despite the intentionally incorrect landscape, Greenaway has in fact been t= o Moab. =B3The project obviously deals with all sorts of ideas of fate and superstition and religion,=B2 he said. "And many, many of the items and products originate from autobiographical events. [Cinematographer Renier Va= n Brummelen] and I were in Moab about eight years ago... and we trespassed on some property of the national parks just outside Moab and were almost arrested." Greenaway was also interested in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Mormons Tulse meets appear again in Belgium, where they are helping the fascist party. =B3The whole phenomenon of new religions related to landscape and the persona of people like Brigham Young and the way that the Mormon communities have organized the deserts and their use of metaphors from the desert=8Afascinated me deeply,=B2 Greenaway said. =B3I=B9m interested in the way religions are constructed. How you take what you need, how you organize your beliefs according to how you want to structure your life. And I think that Mormonism, for me=8Band I speak as an absolute atheist=8Bis an extraordinary, very almost contemporary example of how to construct a religion. And that t= o me was a fascinating investigation.=B2 Greenaway=B9s insights might offend some Utahns, but the project is on the fringe of cinematic art, so they probably won=B9t have to face it head on. * * * http://www.kasanderfilm.nl/tulseluperproduction/synopsis.htm film 1 the moab story a short synopsis the TULSE LUPER SUITCASES covers some sixty years of recent history from 1928 when the existence of a substance called Uranium was to be considered, to the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War in 1989. Tulse Luper, a writer and a project-maker, is caught up in a life of prisons. There are a total of sixteen prisons in the story starting in Sout= h Wales, when Luper is ten years old, locked up for three hours by his father in a coalhouse for running the gauntlet of a series of backyard gardens to sign his name on a crumbling brick wall that collapses. Twelve years later in 1938 in Moab, Utah, Luper is arrested through his contact with an American-German family about to travel to Europe to engage exploitatively in the Second World War. Four members of this family, deeply fascinated with Luper, will act as his jailers, with others interested in uranium, around Europe for the next ten years. In the Cold War years he is imprisoned in Moscow and Siberia, before appearing in Hongkong and Kyoto. I= n the 1980s Luper was apparently sighted in Beijing and in Shanghai. He was last seen in a Manchurian desert. Luper learns to use his prison time, writing on the prisons walls, inventin= g projects in literature, theatre, film and painting, and engaging with his jailers in all manner of plots, schemes and adventures. Because of their responsibilities, jailers are as much prisoners of their prisoners as they are freemen, and this connection of jailer and prisoner permeates this project and provides a great deal of its drama. As Luper's reputation as a writer and project-maker grows in Europe and America, so his person becomes more fictional. A large 'Luper' Symposium an= d Exhibition is held in the Brooklyn Museum in New York. Many Luper lecturers offer their theories and propositions on the various stages of Luper's life= . The central exhibit of the conference and exhibition is a collection of 92 suitcases - 92 appropriately being the atomic number of Uranium - suitcases that Luper had supposedly been associated with in his travels and prisons. Over the years, the suitcases come to light all over the world. On the last evening of the 'Luper' New York Conference, a long awaited Lupe= r suitcase - suitcase 92 - is opened...... * * * http://movies.yahoo.com/news/va/20030524/105379559300.html Cinema Stale, Passive, Needs Reinventing-Greenaway Saturday May 24 9:59 AM ET Outlandish British film director Peter Greenaway wrote off today's cinema a= s formulaic and predictable, as he presented his latest bizarre visual feast on Saturday. Greenaway, whose "The Tulse Luper Suitcases, Part 1: The Moab Story" is the first in a trilogy, also suggested film festivals like Cannes are obsolete... The new piece tracks Greenaway's alter-ego hero Tulse Luper through a historical voyage around the world, from wartime Wales to warped adventures with Mormons in Utah and on to Europe. Essentially an eight-hour film cut into three, the movie plays around with narrative, script and avant-garde visuals to produce something most will either adore or utterly loathe. The story begins on a stage set and moves to the Utah desert where Luper soon finds himself tied to a post, his genitals smeared with honey, fightin= g off flies. Greenaway said people should see the film more than once to appreciate it. "I make no apology for saying these are films that should be seen many times. I want to make films that can offer up their meaning only after repeated viewing." He did not say if the DVDs were also compulsory viewing. "Shakespeare wrote a play called Hamlet in which you have to take in all yo= u want to know about him in 2-1/2 hours. I can stretch my hero's life to 3,00= 0 light years," Greenaway said... - ----- http://www.salon.com/june97/greenaway2970606.html THE SALON INTERVIEW PETER GREENAWAY CONTINUED What's next for you? I'm working on this huge project that's going to be 18 hours long. It's called the "Tulse Luper Suitcase." Tulse Luper is a sort of alter ego I created many many years ago -- Tulse to rhyme with pulse, and Luper is the Latin for wolf. So he's the wolf on your pulse. And the metaphor for the film is that there's no such thing as history, there are only historians; it's about the subjectivities of history. It starts by discussing American fascism in 1933 in Utah, and finishes at the end of the Cultural Revolution in Manchuria, in China -- from one desert to another. A huge, enormous spread. But also it's the history of uranium, which is the ultimate America= n treasure, which has put you where you are. Now with the end of the Cold War= , your treasure is being buried again, which relates to the origins of the Mormons, who are always looking for treasure. And I play all sorts of games with the mnemonics of USA and U for uranium. Christopher Hawthorne is a writer and editor living in Berkeley. * * * http://www.tribnet.com/24hour/entertainment/movies/news/v-southsound/story/= 8 97406p-6251859c.html Director Peter Greenaway's goal: 'reinvent' cinema By CLAIRE ROSEMBERG, Agence France-Presse Tulse Luper himself is a writer and project-maker who is jailed 16 times in the trilogy, which begins in Wales, shifts to Utah's Moab desert and the Mormons, then goes on to Antwerp where Luper is arrested by Belgian fascists... Along with the three films, the project notably includes the making of a TV series of 16 40-minutes shows, a three-year website, books, 1001 loveletter= s and 92 DVDs about the 92 suitcases that feature in the film. The Tulse Luper film is Greenaway's fourth nomination for Cannes' top prize= , the Palme d'Or. Earlier successes include critically-acclaimed "The Draughtsman's Contract," "The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover" and "Prospero's Books." * * * http://movies.yahoo.com/cannes/news/fsc/20030527/105408133000.html Greenaway Unpacks TULSE LUPER SUITCASES Tuesday May 27 5:22 PM ET Tulse Luper =AD where =B3tulse rhymes with pulse,=B2 explained Mr. Greenaway at a press conference holding his wrist with doctor-like briskness, and =B3luper i= s Latin for wolf=B2 as in =B3the wolf on your pulse=B2 =AD is a man who makes best us= e of his time while in captivity, which is most of the time. There are a tota= l of 16 prisons in his life =AD one for each episode of The Moab Story, the trilogy=B9s first part, from the coalhouse his father locked him in at 10 whe= n Luper ran the gauntlet of a series of backyard gardens to sign his name on = a crumbling brick wall to a desert prison in Moab, Utah, and bathroom arrests in Antwerp during WWII... Covering sixty years in the world=B9s recent history from the discovery of Uranium in 1928 to the collapse of the Berlin wall in 1989 and the end of the cold war, the film follows Tulse Luper=B9s (J.J. Feild) adventures from his childhood in South Wales to his excursions in Moab Utah, where he runs into a family of German-American Mormons who become his jailers for the nex= t ten years in Europe. Jailers and prisons, both physical and mental, become = a theme for the aspiring professional prisoner who hopes to make an art of th= e craft of captivity. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:42:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] Deseretnews.com: "Farley Family Reunion" Still Has Touch 'FARLEY FAMILY REUNION' STILL HAS TOUCH This Utah classic still works. You'd think that a series of bits about the kind of family reunion that everyone in Utah has attended -- at least once -- would wear thin after a while. FULL STORY: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1%2C1249%2C505037757%2C00.html ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:37:43 -0500 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] SSA in Mormon Lit Okay, I've persuaded myself to give my own brain dump on this issue... I lack Rex's knowledge base, particularly regarding formal SSA theories and how they play out in the Mormon community. However, here are some of the ideas that I've heard tossed around with regard to origins of SSA. As regards my own personal opinion: based on both observations and logic, I'm inclined to believe both that (a) no single theory accounts for everything, and (b) there are many different homosexualities (so to speak), and the origins of sexual attraction for one person may be quite different from those for someone else. Why should this surprise us? We see constant evidence that in the realm of heterosexuality, sexuality means entirely different things to different people; why should we expect to find it any different in the realm of SSA? I'd also draw attention to the difficulty of figuring out exactly what same-sex attraction means. Does it refer to surface-level default sexual attraction--who you have crushes on, what gender enters your thoughts at sexual moments? Does it refer to individuals you have, or could have, sexual relations with (a rather different matter)? Does it refer to who you crave emotional intimacy with? Does it refer to who you want to establish a lifelong partnership or relationship with? I don't think that these are always the same groups for us as individuals. Anyway, back to my original mission of trying to describe some various origin-notions of SSA: * First, there's the genetic determinism theory, already mentioned by Rex--the "gay gene" theory. He's already said plenty about the political and scientific problems of this one. I'll just add that I've heard of research suggesting that identical twins separated from birth have a higher-than-chance likelihood of both being homosexual if either one is homosexual, which would suggest a genetic component, at least; but I don't know how reliable that research is. Anyway, that gets us into the next category, which is... * The contributing genetic component theory. This accounts for many of the flaws of the earlier theory by suggesting that there's a kind of genetic predisposition which can then be triggered by environmental or other factors, but that this is only one factor, not a "cause." I'll add that this seems much more plausible to me: I find it easier to believe that there could be genetically influenced personality traits which, poured into the cauldron of a specific family and social upbringing, could lead to same-sex attraction, than that something as nuanced as sexual feeling could be directly determined by genetics. * There's the pregnant blood-chemistry/fetal trauma theory. I think someone mentioned this one already, with regard to the theory that hormonal fluctuation during pregnancy might contribute to homosexuality? Anyway, I don't know what the evidence for this one is. * There's the arrested-development theory: an old idea that arises (in part) out of the Freudian theory of stages in sexual development. It's based in part on the recognition that same-sex experimentation seems fairly common in late childhood and early adolescence, when girls are still being avoided, and assumes that for those who carry SSA into childhood, there's something that simply got stuck and failed to move ahead. This is certainly not a popular theory in the gay community, but I can see how those who hold onto an LDS perspective might feel that there could be some truth in it. Some version of this theory may be popular with some SSA Mormon men because it suggests that SSA can at some point (eternally, if not in this life) be "outgrown." * There's the sexual imprinting theory. Cathy Wilson mentioned one version of this: that sexual activity can sexualize children at a fairly early age. Of course, there are many homosexual men who haven't been exposed to sex until they seek out sexual experiences for themselves, which would seem to eliminate that explanation in their case at least. However, I recall running across the suggestion once that fantasizing about male genitals (particularly in a context of early puberty) might increase the chances of homosexuality. I don't know what evidence there may be behind this idea, but it does seem to extend the possibilities for sexual imprinting as having an impact in cases where there is no overt "sexual initiation" to point to. * There's the missing-father/male-figure theory, one of the most popular among those who reject the genetic explanations: the notion that those who grow up homosexual have in many cases experienced a void in the area of male intimacy, which they attempt to make up through acting out on a sexual level. Relating on the most basic level of masculine identity, as it were. >From what I have observed, there are elements of this theory that resonate with many SSA LDS men. There are at least two versions of this theory, one focusing on male intimacy in childhood, the other focusing on male connections during adolescence. The second version includes feeling alienated from one's peers because of "different" interests: art and books, for example, as opposed to sports and cars. Both versions seem to have some resonance for many SSA men--though as other posters have pointed out, there are of course many men with "nontraditional" interests who are fully heterosexual, as well as SSA men who share traditional male interests. * There's the mostly discarded fear-of-females theory, combined with a perhaps more subtle fear of family responsibilities in general. Although I don't believe that you hear this much anymore from those with professional credentials in this field, I think it still has some cultural currency; and it does seem to resonate with some SSA men (from what I've seen). Of course, it's hard to tell cause from effect in this case: are you attracted to other men because you fear women, or do you fear intimacy with women because your real attraction is to men? This theory I think also has connections with the "feminizing" theories: that if your socialization is predominantly feminine, you may want up both alienated from men (but wanting a deeper connection to them) and scared of women (and avoiding intimacy with them). I find this one interesting in a Mormon context in part because, if there's any truth in it, it suggests that for some youth, our emphasis on the responsibilities of marriage may backfire by making marriage even scarier than it would otherwise be. * Homosexuality as response to population pressure. As a science fiction writer I love this one, but I admit that I don't know that I've ever come across anyone who took it seriously. Sigh. * Homosexuality-as-easier. This postulates that it's basically easier for men to connect to men, and women to women, and that if the male-female socialization fails for some reason, the "easier" nature of same-sex relationships may kick into gear. (Note that this seems to contradict the notion Rex mentioned that sexual attraction arises out of a sense of mystery. I wonder if there's some way of combining/reconciling both ideas?) * The fluid sexuality theory. This suggests that for many men, sexuality can go in many different directions, and experience (and choice) play a role in determining where it does go. One variation of this is the falling-in-love theory, which postulates that some men may wind up "gay" because they fall in love with someone who happens to be male. * The sexuality-as-misdirected-intimacy theory. According to this notion, the villain of the piece may be our modern society for (a) reducing and (b) sexualizing male-male contact. This idea often goes hand-in-hand with the deficient-in-male-intimacy theory mentioned above, but uses a kind of crossed-wires metaphor instead of emphasizing the idea of unfilled needs. Practically speaking, this can be an important distinction, since behavior that is seen as trying to fill unmet needs (according to one metaphor) could instead be seen as reinforcing incorrect patterns (according to the other metaphor). **** Many of the preceding ideas are often encountered in some kind of combination with each other. I've separated them out to reflect, not actual theories that have been advanced by specific specialists (which I don't know very much about), but rather some of the different component ideas that I've heard tossed around, of which theories might be made. Obviously, there's a lot that could be done with these various theories in creating literature that features SSA Mormon men. I don't think it's necessary to arrive at any definite conclusion about which theory or theories you favor in order to write convincingly about SSA; but in a Mormon context where SSA is seen as something to be overcome, there's clearly going to be a lot of concern about causation, if only to try to determine what kinds of therapy/treatment/endurance may be best for living toward that goal. Notice, too, that these different theories have very different implications in terms of whether you consider public tolerance of homosexuality to be a problem or not. Using the labels I've coined above, if you believe in the sexual imprinting theory, or the homosexuality-as-easier theory, or the fluid sexuality theory, then it follows logically that greater public tolerance of homosexuality could lead to a greater incidence of homosexuality. Other theories, on the other hand, would suggest no positive link between public tolerance and sexuality. In fact, some of the theories would suggest that intolerance of homosexuality could lead to an *increased* incidence of homosexuality by bringing increased suspicion on expressions of male-male intimacy. One of the interesting points about some of the theories Rex mentioned as being currently in favor among many SSA Mormon men and their LDS therapists is that they seem to suggest not repression but channeling as a way of dealing with homosexual feelings. That kind of approach works better if you believe that homosexuality isn't really about homosexuality at all, as it were: if you believe instead that it is a misdirecting of something else. Behavior (such as physical, nongenital touching--e.g., hugs) that could be seen as fueling the fire in some contexts can become a positive thing if seen in this light. It's a very complex mixture of ideas, particularly when you add specifically Mormon beliefs such as the eternally decreed nature of heterosexual marriage, the embracing of sexuality as a part of eternal human nature, and the notion that as children of God anything that is truly a basic part of us must in essence be a good thing, even if misdirected. **** One final point. Margaret Young listed several pieces of Mormon writing that deal with SSA in a Mormon context. I would add Carol Lynn Pearson's memoir _Goodbye, I Love You_, about her husband Gerald, despite its (in my view) vaguely smug and self-satisfied tone in talking about issues of SSA and the Church. But I find it interesting that none of these (except possibly for the John Bennion piece, which I haven't read) fall within the category I originally asked about: that is, literary depictions of faithful mainstream LDS facing the struggle of managing themselves in a way that fits the Church's guidelines. Most of the works Margaret mentioned were nonfiction. Some were clearly non-mainstream in focus. What I didn't see any mention of was characters--either main characters or minor characters--for whom SSA was simply a fact of life with which they struggled. Mormon literature, even faithful Mormon literature, even DB-appropriate literature, seems able to deal (in some constricted ways) with issues of heterosexual misconduct, drugs, intellectual doubt, handicap, and other similar challenges (internal or external) to faithful LDS living. But I do not see that *in Mormon literature*, there is so far any space that has been taken up with characters, youth or adult, main characters or supporting cast, for whom SSA is dealt with in corresponding fashion. And yet I believe that for SSA individual within the church this *is* the mainstream experience--that there are more youths and men struggling to live by Church teaching in this area than leaving the Church over it, though of course I can't know if this is the case. In any event, it seems to me that these stories are not making it into our literature, where they could provide a much more realistic way of thinking about the issue--and more interesting, well-rounded characters. In my view. Anyway, enough (and more than enough) said on this issue, by me at any rate. I suppose that unless I'm going to write a story myself, I really don't have much call to complain any more about it... Jonathan Langford Speaking as list member, not list moderator jlangfor@pressenter.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #78 *****************************