From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #130 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Friday, August 22 2003 Volume 02 : Number 130 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:24:36 -0700 From: "Kathy Tyner" Subject: Re: [AML] Perceptions of Error among Leaders I've been fortunate enough to have leaders who got irritated by ward members who wanted them to make their every decision for them. One of my bishops had a big wood placard on his desk that said in big letters: "HAVE YOU PRAYED ABOUT IT?" And on occasion, some of the GAs have expressed some exasperation about members being overly dependent on the Brethren for everyday choices. I was particularly taken aback in an Ensign article when Elder Packer brought up people who pray about what kind of style they should choose to do their house in: Tudor, Spanish, etc. He said, "Does it occurr to you that the Lord doesn't CARE what style you choose? He just cares that the house is built to safety standards so the inhabitants are safe inside and that it was obtained by honest means." Didn't the woman who wrote, "Secret Ceremonies" say her first husband was so obsessed with micromanging his life that he prayed about whether he should have eggs for breakfast? Arbitrary rules with no seeming context drive me nuts. If you can give me a good reason for it, they I will go along. And there have been times when I really questioned something, went home, prayed about it and felt it was right for me and usually for my family. There have also been times when I was asked to go along with something that had me wondering and the Spirit told me to go with it. Later on, I could usually see why it was a good thing. Maybe the Lord knows how stubborn I am, so I have to be told directly. ;-) I think the real question here is that Obedience for it's own sake has become enshrined in our classes and many tomes sitting on the shelves of church book stores. How about Obedience, not for it's own sake, but for the right reasons? After all, when all is said and done, will it not be the intent of our hearts and the content of characters that we will be judged by God on? Kathy Tyner Orange County, CA - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:57:46 -0700 From: "Kathy Tyner" Subject: Re: [AML] Religious Fundamentalists as Murderers I'll give a hearty second to Annette's recommendations of John Douglas' books. I think the one she was trying to remember the title of is: "The Cases That Haunt Us". "Mindhunter" is another excellent one. Douglas was an adviser on "Silence Of The Lambs" and the model for Jody Foster's superior in the movie. Scott Glenn played her boss and spent time with Douglas to get a feel for him and the work. Douglas has written and talked about how in talking with Glenn he found him against the death penalty, and had certain attitudes about criminal justice in general. Douglas made him sit down and listen to a series of audio tapes a child predator/murderer made when he tortured the little boys he abducted before he killed them. He had Glenn weeping. He wanted him to know what his world was like and what the people he helps the police to catch are like. I'll also confirm that what Annette says about Douglas and choice. Douglas is emphatic about no matter how much a compulsion a criminal may have, he still always has a choice. If they are really insane, how come they plan their crimes away from where they will be seen, use subterfuge and try to cover them up? There are other people that have rough childhoods and who don't choose to hurt others, in fact, many of them try and make life better for others. And while he concedes that many of the criminals he's dealt with do come from bad childhoods, he also points out some come from good backgrounds and still choose to commit crimes. Douglas does not feel that religion tends to make for creating murderers more than anything else in the criminal's life, it just might be the facade they use or hide behind. He is very skeptical of people that "get religion" in prison as they seem more interested in getting out than in paying for their crimes. If they are sincere, fine. He just thinks society shouldn't take a chance by letting them out to test it out and see. One of his favortie phrases about the desire to "rehabilitate" some of these hard-core sadists, rapists and murderers is: "How can you rehabilitate someone who was never "habilitated" in the first place?" His Mormon connection is the accounts of the so-called "mormon mafia" that was at the FBI in the years he was there. He doesn't speak ill of this by the way, he expresses admiration for a number of his mormon colleagues. He mentioned one who had a sign in his office, "He Who Fails At Home, Fails At Life." He tells of an anecdote about one of the LDS law-enforcement officers who came to take a program at the FBI headquarters at Quantico. Seems he set the guy up for a practical joke, and how flustered the guy was, but was a good sport when they let him in on what was really going on. I think he helped to train the Chief of Police in Provo, that's his connection there. He also has a weekend radio show in Los Angeles right now. Kathy Tyner Orange County, CA - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:16:36 -0500 From: "Lisa Tait" Subject: Re: [AML] Great and Noble Ones - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Young" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 10:58 AM Subject: [AML] Great and Noble Ones There > are these moments when we leave the somewhat irrelevant discussions and > participate in the heart-wrenching efforts to unite ourselves and give > comfort when we REALLY live up to our covenants to mourn with those that > mourn or when we (like my friend standing with her children on the rock) > defy the powers of Satan that would divide us and have us blame God for > our personal tragedies and maybe for institutional errors. These > moments show me the core of my faith and remind me why I still believe. Margaret, I'm sure I speak for many when I say thank you for this lovely and moving post. You've expressed something I've often tried to put into words--the core of faith in spite of the hassles of membership--and you've also challenged me to examine my heart and make sure that that core is intact. Especially this week when the childish and uncharitable behavior of a ward member has inflicted a lot of pain in our family. Lisa Tait - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:49:07 -0600 From: jeffress@xmission.com Subject: Re: [AML] Caffeinated Drinks I probably should have used [sic], since I did a lot of cutting and pasting, especially on the organic compound names. (Physics majors never did go in for all that chemistry mumbo jumbo.) Perhaps since that particular refence came from Oxford, the Brits spell Xanthine differently along with all those other crazy variants on "normal" English. :-) Thanks, Ronn!, for the addendum. - -- Terry - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:38:30 -0700 From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Dale W. NELSON, _A Latter-day Saint Perspective on the Lost Thanks for the information, I appreciate it. - -- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:40:09 -0700 From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] FW: Eric D. Snider update: All Fired Up This sounds nuts. A sad development. I hope you land something soon. - -- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:32:59 -0600 From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Perceptions of Error among Leaders [MOD: Without taking this thread further in the direction of allocating blame, I'd like to invite a discussion of how specific ideas change/become transmuted as they pass through various cultural filters: e.g., Conference talk to counsel from the bishop; practice to folk doctrine. What happens when one person's "established doctrine" turns out to be, in someone else's opinion, just a matter that church members may disagree about? How is/can/should this be reflected in our literature?] - ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Michael Martindale" > Bill Willson wrote: > > > So it isn't necessarily the errors of the GA's we need to be worrying about, > > it's the misinterpretations and errors of the rank and file that get us into > > trouble. > > But since one nearly always results in the other, we do need to worry. > But which is the real cause of the trouble, the GA's propensity to err on the side of righteousness, or the rank and file's tendency to take the guidelines to the extreme? Does a guideline from the GA's about modesty for instance, make it alright for some self-righteous member on the stake dance committee to stand at the door of a church dance and humiliate a young woman who has her skirt or dress cut a little too short? Or does the word of wisdom give a high priest serving on the city council the authority to use his position to pass a city ordinance prohibiting the grocery stores from selling beer or wine on Sunday? Should we be voting to close public recreation venues just because of the commandment to "honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy"? Where is the principle of agency in this kind of leadership? Where is the opportunity for progression if we try to legislate righteousness? I think this sort of thinking completely undermines the result of the War in Heaven. Joseph Smith gave us a good basic outline to follow when he said, "Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves." This did not absolve the rank and file from using good common sense, and applying the principles and guidelines to affect the spirit of the law, and not lean so hard toward serving the strict letter of the law. I don't think the members of the church should be so infantile, as to require instruction in every facet of the application of the correct principles and guidelines set out by the GA's. Bill Willson, writer http://www.iwillwriteit.com http://www.latterdaybard.com Here's a great place for LDS artists to show and sell their work. http://www.minutemall.com CHECK IT OUT! - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:45:58 -0600 From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Reference in SWAT - ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Michael Martindale" > Bill Willson wrote: > > > > From: "Cathy Wilson" > > > > > Very cute. > > __________________________________ > > > > I agree that dialogue is funny, but it can be damaging too. > > This is a good example of the rank and file's misinterpretation of the > > guidance from our GA's in favor of safe choices, and spreading of false > > doctrine based on correct principles taught by our leaders. (see earlier > > post on ...errors among leaders). I'm sure the writer was trying to either > > spread some doctrine, or else deliberately vilify the intolerance of church > > doctrine, either way, it is incorrect and damaging to the church's public > > image. > > Or maybe the writer was just trying to provide a cute moment in the > movie. Since when does cuteness justify damaging the image of anyone, or the image of the church members? I guess we as a group of writers have to use our agency to decide whether our purpose is to strengthen the image of the church and attract our readers toward investigating it more seriously, or denigrating the church and its members into shame. Here is to good writing designed to strengthen and uplift. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:55:40 -0600 From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Perceptions of Error among Leaders - ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Michael Martindale" > When Jesus condemns the Pharisees, I think he's speaking as much to us > in modern times as he was to his contemporaries. Are we piling on our > own set of ad hoc rules that we demand each other live, because we > somehow don't think the principles of the gospel are good enough to > teach us to govern ourselves? > > Caffeinated drinks. > [snip] > > Are we sure we're not the Pharisees too? > Thank you D, for a very interesting list of topics to attempt to write essays on. I think in some ways some of the members of our church have drifted too far toward the Pharisees way of thinking and acting. Perhaps we all do at times, as we try to lead and guide our families toward the correct path, as we see it. Bill Willson, writer http://www.iwillwriteit.com http://www.latterdaybard.com Here's a great place for LDS artists to show and sell their work. http://www.minutemall.com CHECK IT OUT! - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:45:49 -0600 From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] ROWLING, J.K., _Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix_ (Review) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darvell Hunt" > > Maybe there's hope for me as a writer after all. > > Veering a little bit from the original post on Harry Potter, I'd like to comment on my reading of _Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets_ by J.K. Rowling that has lifted a bit of the doubt from my own mind of whether or not my writing has any hope of being published. > . . . When suddenly I realized that Lord Voldemort could not be an ancestor of Salazar Slytherin, but rather a descendant. I smiled big. If Rowling can make a word-use blunder like that, maybe there's hope for me. > . . . if I can see that somebody who is as sucessful (and now rich!) as J. K. Rowling and can still make mistakes like this, then maybe I should pick up my pen again (okay, keyboard) and start a new project. > When I read this post I found myself in complete sympathy with Darvell, and my heart went out to him. Writing is a very tough affliction to overcome. Many very good writers give up or get lost in the shuffle before they even have the courage to call themselves writers. We have to keep reminding ourselves that not all writers become authors, but all authors were once writers. This is the reason I set out a few years ago to write a motivational book to help writers in denial to begin to see themselves as writers and therefore potential authors. May I offer some further insight to the process of writing with the following excerpt from my, as of yet unpublished, but copyrighted book - "You Just Might be a Writer"? (c) 2002 Chapter Eight - Rewriting Rewriting is very similar to the plot of the movie Groundhog Day starring Bill Murray. The first time through the writer finds all the mistakes like typos, spelling errors and little personal idiosyncracies in the writing style, then the writer goes back and finds all the adverbs and adjectives which are blatantly unnecessary or misused. Now the first draft is complete, and the real work begins, fleshing out, trimming, honing, fine tuning, and fixing the all important word choices. Groundhog Day is a perfect model for learning how to rewrite. A writer rewrites just like Bill Murray did; he just kept on changing, revising, polishing, cutting here, adding there, rearranging, tightening, expanding the story over and over and over endlessly, until one day, by some stroke of fate, he got it right. You just might be a writer if . . . you mentally rewrite the endings of stories you read or movies you see. when you finally get something published, and you are reading your own personal copy, there it is, right in the middle of page forty-nine, a blaring typo. you begin to realize you can never find all the typos by yourself. you discover a typo in the published work that wasn't in your original manuscript, and you really get ticked-off. you suddenly realize that nothing you ever write will be perfect or even just exactly the way you originally intended it to be. every time you read something you have written, you want to change something. making changes to your manuscript, suggested by the copy editor, is like a root canal, but after it's over you feel so much better. you believe rewriting is a necessary evil just like taxes, unions, and welfare. you fill three wastebaskets full of discarded copy before you can fill a 9 x12 manila envelope with a manuscript fit to be seen by an editor. no matter how many times you have rewritten a piece of work, you still want to read it one more time before submitting it. you can't believe it when you find something you need to change on your last read through. you sometimes find yourself staring at the pages of your manuscript, telling yourself, "I know there's a mistake in there somewhere, and I'm not quitting until I find it." after umpty-ump rewrites you finally accept the fact that it will never be perfect, so you send it off to the editor anyway. _______________________________ Darvel if you think you are a writer you are one. Don't let the uphill struggle to publication discourage you, just keep on writing every day. That is what writers do. Bill Willson, writer http://www.iwillwriteit.com http://www.latterdaybard.com Here's a great place for LDS artists to show and sell their work. http://www.minutemall.com CHECK IT OUT! - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:08:45 -0600 From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: RE: [AML] Val Kilmer and Joseph Smith Denzel? Hmm. I for one have never swooned over him. Viggo, on the other hand . . . Annette Lyon - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:58:50 -0600 From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Reference in SWAT - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Duncan" > Methinks thou doth protest too much. This is in no > way damaging to the church's images. What it DOES do > is make the Mormon people appear more human, which can > never be a bad thing. > > "Yes, World, it is true. We don't all avoid drinking > Diet Coke. Some of us don't pay a full tithing all > the time. Sometimes we, like you, fail in our family > responsibilities. We are just like you. Normal in > every way." Yes we are all normal and we all have faults and weaknesses, but why not portray Mormans as being intelligent about the struggle with the nature of our humanity and alter the dialogue to make it appear more like we were comfortable with our agency rather than obsessed with appearances even if they do not conform to our own perception of reality? Maybe something like: The protagonist brings in a couple of Dr Peppers and the older agent says, "Don't tell my wife I'm swilling this stuff, she thinks I'll go to hell if I do. When we got married, I converted to Mormonism and some people in the church have extended the church's laws of health to include anything with caffeine in it. We're supposed to keep our bodies clean, but I personally only accept the ban on hot drinks like coffee and tea, along with alcohol and tobacco." and later The protagonist comes into the office and there's the Mormon guy eating McDonalds, including some more Dr Pepper. The guy says, "You're eating and drinking hellfire and damnation to your soul," And the Mormon guy responds, "The only difference between you and I is the difference in the temperature of our caffeine. Just don't tell my wife. Personally I'm more worried about avoiding the secretaries low cut neckline than what's in my soft drink." Bill Willson, writer http://www.iwillwriteit.com http://www.latterdaybard.com Here's a great place for LDS artists to show and sell their work. http://www.minutemall.com CHECK IT OUT! - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:04:49 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] ROWLING, J.K., _Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix_ (Review) Other such examples. Harlan Ellison describing a a centaur in a story entitled "Minotaur." Larry Niven in Ring World describing the earth as orbiting in the exact opposite direction it actually does. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:04:49 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Val Kilmer and Joseph Smith Is he that bad and actor or is George a bad director. I just finished watching the Professional with a young Natalie Portman. She was marvelous in that. In SW, she sucked big time. Some actors need great directors to be good (Gregory Peck was among them). Other actors (like Gene Hackman) nail their performances every time no matter who the director is. Thom >-----Original Message----- >I said I would take responses seriously >(except the obviously joking), but in one case I respectfully >have to disagree: Hayden Christensen can't act. > >Jongiorgi Enos - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:04:49 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] Perceptions of Error among Leaders >-----Original Message----- >OTOH, when I suggested that we make the investigator in one of=20 >our videos=20 >black, that suggestion got bounced upstairs from person to=20 >person (though I=20 >don't know precisely who got involved) before the word came=20 >back down, "No,=20 >you can't do that, because the Church isn't baptizing many=20 >blacks.=B9 You=20 >can make him Hispanic, though." So he got a stereotype=20 >Hispanic name like=20 >Hernandez or Melendez or something like that in the script. =20 >Of course,=20 >when it came time to shoot the finished product, the actor=20 >they got to play=20 >the part was drawn from the available pool of talent: typical=20 >Happy Valley=20 >white bread. We had similar problems when we wanted to show one of the actresses as pregnant (she was in real life so we went with it). It was a problem but we managed through. Ultimately, we succeeded in doing a training video for Stake Missionaries still used to this day. One of the stake missionaries is a black man (actor Isaac Thomas). We felt it was quite a coup back in those days. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:20:24 -0500 From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Val Kilmer and Joseph Smith Okay, I'm finally catching up. I enjoy both Viggo Mortensen and Hugh Jackman's performances and they're both admittedly nice to look at. Given the choice I'd vote for Hugh to pull it off better. Viggo might be too old. And no one has suggested the one name that absolutely every single woman I know swoons over (including myself, and I honestly do not pay much attention to these things): Orlando Bloom. (Legolas the Elf and the Will Turner in Pirates of the Carribean) He's proven he can change hair and eyes successfully. If swooning is what is wanted... :-) he's your actor. Even sisters who normally do not talk about such things have been overheard at church saying things like "Legolas is HOT." It's pretty funny. It's his eyes. Contacts or not. And some kind of stage presence that is more commanding than I've noticed in a long, long time. I know nothing of his personal life or how he's handling his rocketing stardom. But that -look- in his eyes--he could do it. On the flip side, although I'm a Kilmer fan, I'd pick him last in this lineup. And to flip back, he might be the only one of the group spiritually nutty or open enough to Joseph's life story that could be sincere enough to portray it. I saw him on The Actor's Studio a while back, where Lipton asks a series of questions at the end, the last of which is, "If Heaven exists, what do you want to hear God say when you arrive?" Usually the actors come up with a short quip. Kilmer, however, went into a long discussion: "Now-- I've seen her, and this is what she said..." OTOH maybe you *don't* want him playing Joseph.... :-) Best of luck. Linda - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:36:20 -0500 From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Heavenly Mothers (was: Episcopalean Revelation) >which states that her reason tells her that we have a mother in Heaven. I >was surprised both by her conclusion and by her considering it >reasonable--I'd never heard anything about a heavenly mother in the >Southern Baptist Church! It was, shall we say, a paradigm shift for me. Mm. No. Actually, "The rest of the story" is that Eliza R. Snow's own mother had recently passed away when she wrote the song. It's far more likely she meant eternal families, and that her mother and father would be with her in Heaven. There has never been a denial of the concept of a Mother in Heaven, although it's common knowledge that this is the usual interpretation of "O My Father." But to my recollection it's never been preached from the pulpit either, as doctrine. Linda Adams - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:37:42 -0500 From: Ronn! Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Caffeinated Drinks At 12:49 PM 8/21/03 -0600, jeffress@xmission.com wrote: >I probably should have used [sic], since I did a lot of cutting and= pasting, >especially on the organic compound names. (Physics majors never did go in >for all that chemistry mumbo jumbo.) Um . . . I majored in physics. ;-) (Actually, a double major in math=20 and physics.) To be fair, though, I did once upon a time consider chemistry as a=20 profession before deciding on astronomy, so perhaps I do know a bit more=20 about chemistry than the "average" physicist (whatever that might mean),=20 and it comes in handy when the topic is the chemistry which goes on in the= =20 atmospheres or on the surfaces of other planets, or the needs of possible=20 extraterrestrial life forms . . . >Perhaps since that particular refence >came from Oxford, the Brits spell Xanthine differently along with all those >other crazy variants on "normal" English. :-) Possibly, though I don't think I've ever seen "zanthine" as an alternative= =20 spelling (though that is indeed the way it is pronounced). The spelling,=20 etc., of most chemical names is standardized by the IUPAC ("International=20 Union on Pure and Applied Chemistry", IIRC), though, so there is really=20 minimal variation from country to country. (There are both books and web=20 sites where you can find the IUPAC rules for naming organic compounds, and= =20 said rules are very extensive.) >Thanks, Ronn!, for the addendum. You're welcome, though as I said, I was just being nit-picky. - -- Ronn! :) Ronn Blankenship Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science University of Montevallo Montevallo, AL Disclaimer: Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions contained=20 herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the=20 official position of the University of Montevallo. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:09:16 -0600 From: Fred C Pinnegar Subject: Re: [AML] FW: Eric D. Snider update: All Fired Up I am sorry to see Eric leave, but it is also a good time to get out of the Herald. There was a time when I had a fairly high opinion of it, but I think that it is on a down-hill, left leaning, rolling tumbling skid, and I don't know how much longer I will be with them myself (subscription wise, not employment). I have loved and appreciated Eric's work for a long time, except, of course, when he has made fun of things near and dear to me. I wish him all the best, and, as we sometimes say of those how have died, he is going to a better place. Fred Pinnegar - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:31:33 -0600 From: Elizabeth Walters Subject: Re: [AML] Val Kilmer and Joseph Smith I've watched Attack of the Clones more times than I care to admit and I guess we'll agree to disagree on Hayden's performance. He's definitely no Oscar caliber actor yet, but based on the fact that Star Wars movies have never been known for acting quality I thought he handled himself o.k. Some scenes more than others of course. I think he's done well in other movies like "Life as a House" and "The Virgin Suicides." I'd take him over half of the rising young actors out there right now. Just my opinion of course [Elizabeth Walters] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:54:33 -0700 From: "Richard B. Johnson" Subject: RE: [AML] Caffeinated Drinks [MOD: Thanks to Richard and others who have responded. I think we've about beaten this aspect of this thread to death...] Actually according to the latest information sent to my temple president, one can attend the temple, complete ordinances (even perform Baptisms) with facial hair but one cannot be an ordinance worker with facial hair.(Ordained veil workers who are not regular (scheduled) ordinance workers are still allowed to work the veil, but, I understand, not in all temples Richard B. Johnson; Husband, Father, Grandfather, Actor, Director, Puppeteer, Teacher, Playwright, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool. I sometimes think that the last persona is most important and most valuable. Http://PuppenRich.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:11:48 -0700 From: Harlow S Clark Subject: [AML] Re: Dialogue Call for Papers on War and Peace Went up to SLC last Wednesday to hear Martin Luther King III speak. I hope to write some about that. Talked with Karen Moloney, Levi's co-editor. She said she had hoped to receive some more hawkish papers for the War and Peace issue, because you can't present both sides of an issue if you only have papers from one side. Three names came to mind immediately from list discussions, Jacob Proffitt, Jim Wilson and Scott Parkin. Jacob for his comment that people who are against war are never willing to say what they think would constitute a just war, Jim for his passion in general, and Scott for his ability to see the ambiguities and nuances on both sides of an issue and write thoughtfully about them. And I think other list members could write well on both war and peace. I told Karen I'd mention her desire on AML-List. Unfortunately, papers are due Sept 1. A lot has happened in the last week and I haven't had much time to e-mail, so I apologize for the short notice. Harlow S. Clark - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Lee Subject: Re: [AML] Perceptions of Errors (clarified) Thank you for all of your replies. I think I need to clarify my question. My question is, where is this idea of non-erroring General Authorities coming from among you on this list? It's clear that everyone who has posted a reply is aware that the concept is not doctrinally correct and it's not taught as doctrine by those with authority to do so. What I want to know is where are the members of this list hearing the opposite? My post was triggered by Eric Samuelsen's comment, "Isn't it about time that we Mormons acknowledge that General Authorities, even Apostles, can and do make mistakes?" and D. Michael Martindale's reply, "It's not only about time, but decades overdue." In my circle of influence, with the exception of lists like this, I never hear these kinds of comments. What I've picked up on from these posts is a frustration with those who promote the non-erroring perspective. However, I would like to assume that there really aren't any members of the Church who truly believe in perfect General Authorities. But if that's not the case, then who are these people and why do they have the power to affect so many of you if they are so clearly out of step? What I've seen in the replies to my post (and in other posts) are a few mentions of the occasional person in a Gospel Doctrine class (usually an older person) who speaks dogmatically about subjects they probably haven't studied since the early 1970's. Some have mentioned administrative problems when working as an employee or contractor for the Church that have caused disillusionment on some level (this could be a whole separate topic). Wilford Woodruffs comments about not leading the Church astray (D&C OD 1) have been brought up but just as quickly put into perspective, which voids them out as an issue. Others have mentioned their personal dissatisfaction with Church policies and actions, but none of these situations have answered why statements like the one made by Eric Samuelsen are received on this list with nods of approval. That's the mystery to me. Matthew R. Lee - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:20:25 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] (Des News) Snider Firing Daily Herald fires writer over story on 'Rumors' 'Mysterious' source was the reporter himself By Leigh Dethman Deseret Morning News PROVO - A Daily Herald columnist was fired Tuesday for allegedly violating the paper's ethics policy. Eric D. Snider said he was fired for referring to a "mysterious" source in an Aug. 8 news story. Snider, however, was quoting himself. "There was a lapse in judgment made where I ought to have said up front there might be a conflict of interest - someone else should write the story," said Snider. Snider's story was about the Pleasant Grove Theater's plans to remove obscenities from the Neil Simon play "Rumors." Snider said he was curious about the legality of changing a copyrighted script, so he anonymously called Samuel French Inc., a company that handles the copyright. The play was scheduled to open for a two-week run August 14 - but the curtains never opened. Simon revoked the theater's rights to perform the play unless the script remained intact. Snider said the letter Samuel French Inc. sent to the Grove Theater indicates the office was acting on information brought to their attention by Simon's attorney. "I was under the impression it was not because of me they were acting," Snider said. In Snider's story about the play, he wrote, "How Samuel French learned of the alterations is a mystery worthy of Agatha Christie more than Neil Simon." A clarification in Thursday's Daily Herald said it is the policy of the Herald to make every effort to fully identify its sources and to make clear all relevant circumstances in news stories. Daily Herald Publisher Al Manzi said would not confirm or deny Snider's firing, saying the newspaper does not comment on personnel issues. "We made the correction to Eric's story today," Manzi said. "That's all we feel comfortable commenting on out of respect for Eric and because of our internal policies." Snider was not the only tipster from the Herald. Features writer Brent Merritt, who was slated to be the lead in the Grove's production of "Rumors," also called Samuel French Inc., Snider said. Merritt was only reprimanded for his actions and kept his job at the newspaper, Snider said. "We certainly will not cast him again," said Gayliene Omary, one of the owners and a producer at the Grove Theater. "I don't know his intentions. If he's an enemy, we don't want to have people here that want to destroy our theater. We want people that work with us and help us along." Omary said her theater lost a lot of money when "Rumors" did not go on. "I just wonder why he felt so compelled to do that and not to come to us first," Omary said. "It almost seems like he contrived a story; made up a story to excite things." Snider was hired at the Daily Herald after graduating from Brigham Young University. His popular column "Snide Remarks" brought him fans and enemies in Utah Valley. He started Garren's, an improvisational comedy group. Snider left the group in 1997 but recently returned to the local comedy-performance scene with Comedy Sportz. Snider said moving to a new place intrigues him, but leaving his local celebrity status might be hard to swallow. "I never planned on staying in Utah," Snider said. "I never planned on staying at the Herald forever. I had to leave the Herald eventually, and maybe this is the kick . . . I needed to go do something else." - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:17:57 -0500 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Heavenly Mothers Linda wrote: >"The rest of the story" is that Eliza R. Snow's own >mother had recently passed away when she wrote the song. It's far more >likely she meant eternal families, and that her mother and father would be >with her in Heaven. This is an interesting interpretation, but I find it hard to understand, given the wording of the song as we currently have it. I don't know the historical context of the writing, which may be as you have suggested. But looking at the song with an interpretive eye, it's hard for me to see it as referring to anything other than heavenly parents. Consider the first and second verses. These, it seems to me, are clearly about God: "holy habitation," the reference to a spirit residing there, and the "thou" as the one who sent Eliza to earth and put a veil over her memory of pre-Earth life. This continues in the first part of the third verse, with its reference to being taught to refer to "thee" as a Father, although she "knew not why" until "the key of knowledge was restored"--an apparent reference to the Restoration, through Joseph Smith, as explaining that God is literally the father of our spirits. I can't see how these lines could possibly refer to her earthly father. Given this consistent focus for the first two and a half verses, it seems a stretch to argue that the second half of the third verse, with its famous question, "In the heavens are parents single?" is suddenly talking, not about God, but about earthly parents in the hereafter. Thematically, this second half of the verse, with its reference to "truth is reason," seems to extend the idea from the first half, which is that new knowledge through the Restoration suddenly makes the title of "Father" for God much clearer. It's hard for me to read this as anything but an additional, logical conclusion that Eliza R. Snow is drawing, that a Mother in Heaven must exist, based on the literal reality of God as our Father as revealed through the Restoration. This conclusion seems confirmed by the fourth verse. Granted, the first two lines, "When I leave this frail existence, when I lay this mortal by, Father, Mother, may I meet you in your royal courts on high?" could conceivably refer to meeting earthly parents again, though use of the term "royal" and of Eliza requesting *permission* to meet them again seems to argue against this. The last two lines, however, seem to make it clear that it is deity to whom Eliza is speaking: "Then at length, when I've completed all you sent me forth to do" appears, again, to refer to the notion of being sent to earth, while "With your mutual approbation let me come and dwell with you" is appealing to Father and Mother both (as indicated by "mutual") for approval to come and "dwell with you." Unless we're arguing that Eliza thought that earthly parents would judge us on our earthly performance (an interesting but peculiar notion), it seems to me that this has to be a reference to divine judgment (which apparently Eliza sees as jointly shared among both heavenly parents). So she is speaking to a set of two parents who first sent her to earth, then will be judging her, with the goal being for her to live with them again. Who could this be but God and his consort? Linda: What is your source for this interpretation? Jonathan Langford Speaking as myself, not AML-List moderator jlangfor@pressenter.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #130 ******************************