From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #131 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, August 25 2003 Volume 02 : Number 131 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:58:36 -0600 From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: [none] > From: Christopher Bigelow To: "'aml-list@lists.xmission.com'" Subject: [AML] (SL Trib) Utah Speculative Fiction Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:57:40 -0600 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: aml-list [MOD: Thanks, Chris, for forwarding this. Sigh... Brings back memories!] Utahns devour and write a galaxy of fantasy fiction=20 By Christy Karras=20 The Salt Lake Tribune=20 It may be the culture. It may be religion or the landscape. Maybe it's something in the water. Whatever the reason, Utah has some of the nation's most prolific producers and ravenous readers of science fiction and fantasy, known in the book world as "speculative fiction."=20 Organizers of the Utah Book Awards, given annually for outstanding recent work about Utah or by Utah authors, discovered this two years ago, when they put out the word that writers in the genre were welcome to enter the fiction division.=20 "We just got overwhelmed with genre entries," said Julie Bartel, teens' librarian at the Salt Lake City Public Library and a member of the Utah Center for the Book committee that chooses award winners. The contest garnered twice as many speculative entries as mainstream ones.=20 Science-fiction author M. Shayne Bell became a finalist that year, even though judges had little experience with genre fiction. Science-fiction and fantasy authors "are really asking important questions, but they look more like entertainment," said Chip Ward, who heads the Utah Center for the Book. "If you're not used to that genre, it's hard to know if it's really serious or not."=20 Last year, for the first time, the Utah Center for the Book created a category for speculative fiction, with an award partly funded by CONduit, Utah's largest science-fiction convention.=20 The number of entries for the award highlights the number of science-fiction and fantasy writers in Utah. "Getting into the convention side of things, you realize how many writers there are who live here or have ties to here, and how many people here read science fiction and fantasy," said Bartel, a CONduit board member. "You start to wonder why."=20 =20 A religious influence: Many science-fiction and fantasy authors in Utah are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- which may seem paradoxical, since Mormons are known for being pragmatic and conservative.=20 The Mormon culture is "a little repressive, but it's also a culture that believes in things you can't see, things you take on faith. Whatever side of the religion question you come down on, it works really well," said Bartel, who is not LDS. "Where so many people spend so much time thinking about the big questions, it's got to have some influence."=20 Links between the church and science fiction can be traced largely to one man and one LDS institution. Marion "Doc" Smith, a professor in the English department at Brigham Young University, taught a science-fiction writing class for years before his death last year. That class produced many published writers, including Bell and Dave Wolverton; a publication, Leading Edge, printed by the English department; a science-fiction and fantasy club; and an annual symposium called "Life, the Universe and Everything."=20 After Smith's retirement, English professor Sally Taylor and linguistics professor Linda Adams began advising the club and symposium, which draws about 500 people every spring.=20 "Philosophically, one reason that Mormons do so well in science fiction is that, I think, science fiction is one of the genres people are writing in that has the highest ethical standard. . . . There are codes and rules and honor that I think fits well with a believing people," Adams said. Mormons also believe in a "premortal existence" and an afterlife, and that this is not the only world God will ever create. "A lot of things that seem fanciful to other people don't seem so out of the ordinary to the LDS," Adams said. "As a Mormon, it's not hard to believe in something you can't see and hear and touch right now."=20 Television and film also show evidence of Mormons' interest in science fiction, Adams said, noting that 1970s TV series "Battlestar Galactica" had many LDS writers. She has even found an occasional Mormon influence in episodes of "Star Trek."=20 "The fact is, as a Mormon you believe that there is life on other planets. We're kind of a science-fiction religion," said Wolverton, who studied poetry and literature as well as Smith's science-fiction classes at BYU.=20 About 20 years ago, Wolverton sent a story to the Writers of the Future contest, a worldwide competition originally set up by science-fiction writer and Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, and won the grand prize. Based on that, he got a three-book contract with a major publisher -- a success story almost unheard-of in the literary world.=20 "It was a little overwhelming at first," he said in a telephone interview from his home in St. George. His first book landed at No. 3 on The New York Times best-seller list. "All of a sudden, I had this reputation I had to live up to."=20 Wolverton is one of a sizable group of Utah residents who have won or placed in the contest. "It's been a joke that so many Utah writers have won Writers of the Future," said Susan Kroupa, who selects fiction for the Orem public library and has written many speculative-fiction stories.=20 Like other writers, Kroupa believes speculative fiction is a good place to explore ethical issues. She counts Orson Scott Card, who is LDS, as one of her influences. "I realized the issues I wanted to talk about -- moral, societal and cultural things that were interesting to me -- I saw how well he handled in his science fiction and fantasy. It seemed a more acceptable place to examine that than in mainstream writing."=20 Card, who lived in Utah before moving to North Carolina a few years ago, says he's not surprised to find Mormons interested in the genre. "We have no qualms about the idea of life on other planets, faster-than-light travel, ancient 'lost' civilizations, supernatural events with natural explanations," he told The Salt Lake Tribune in an e-mail message. "We view all problems as solvable, and regard human nature as being fundamentally good and humans as capable of far more, intellectually and morally, than we have yet seen in history. These are attributes of mainstream science fiction, so Mormons are comfortable in that milieu.=20 "However, the reason is really deeper than this. . . . Science fiction allows writers to deal with all the most powerful, troubling and/or difficult religious, moral and cosmological issues. Where else can you write apocalyptic, eschatological, epistemological and redemptive fiction with any kind of clarity?"=20 The road for LDS writers has not always been easy. Tracy Hickman, a devout Mormon, began his career writing role-playing games such as Dungeons and Dragons -- considered dangerous by some church members. "I was called out of church one day by a member of the stake presidency who took me out and sat down with me and asked me about my work, asked if there was anything about my work that was contrary to my beliefs," said Hickman, author of more than 50 titles, most of them in the Dragonlance series. He believes problems lie not in the genre but in a few individuals who misuse it.=20 "Everything I ever wrote, I always made sure that it was a story of ethics and a story that taught morality."=20 =20 A community of believers: Not all of Utah's speculative-fiction writers are LDS, which leads many to believe other factors are also at work. Ken Rand, who teaches writing and has published numerous stories including the collection Tales of the Lucky Nickel Saloon, once counted and came up with at least 50 Utah writers in the genre. "Yes, many Utah science-fiction writers are Mormon. . . . But there are and have been many Utah science-fiction writers who are not Mormon. And how do you account for the many atheists in the genre, including Heinlein and Asimov? The genre is a huge umbrella."=20 Rand (who is not LDS) says it may be partly the landscape itself, which inspires him. "I write a lot about the West, mostly Wyoming, but a lot of my stories are set in, or somehow related to Utah, particularly the west desert. I loved that landscape, where you could be in a spot and look around and know there is nobody within a hundred square miles of where you are."=20 Rand and others also say the helpful community of writers in Utah keeps the genre strong. "The feeling of community among science-fiction writers comes from the fact that we're all fans -- from the newest writer to the biggest publisher -- we all love reading this stuff," he said. "And we help each other. Paying forward is not just a clich=E9, it's something we do regularly as a habit, as a commitment to the betterment of the genre. The way it works: If I teach somebody who becomes a Great Writer, as that writer goes up, so does the entire literary field, and so do I with it."=20 For every Utah writer, there are many more readers. L.E. Modesitt, a prolific author whose 2002 science-fiction book Archform: Beauty won the first speculative-fiction Utah Book Award, attributes the genre's popularity among readers partly to the state's young population. Science fiction and fantasy are popular with teenagers, a group that makes up an oversize chunk of Utah's people. It is also a group notoriously reluctant to read. According to librarian Bartel, if teens read at all, it's likely they're reading speculative fiction.=20 "A lot of teens that I've talked to just lately here have mentioned that they're reading about important things" in science fiction, Bartel said, from cataclysmic battles to important social questions. "They feel like they don't have that sort of a big thing in their lives." In real life, "You can't go out and discover another country. . . . Getting a job and going out and becoming an adult doesn't seem that big or important.=20 "There's a disillusionment that kids go through when they realize they're not going to become king of the world, they'll become an accountant or something. A lot of mainstream fiction doesn't address big questions like that."=20 Ruth Hanson is chairwoman of the Reading for the Future program, which asks fans and authors to donate science-fiction and fantasy books to schools and libraries to encourage reading. The program also sponsors workshops and activities to teach educators how to incorporate speculative fiction into curricula. "It's really good for certain people, especially teenage males who are bored," Hanson said. "It's a way to ignite the spark of imagination and invite them to explore things that in the real world it might be emotionally hard to deal with."=20 Hanson believes the genre is popular throughout the state because people here tend to be technologically literate, and because Utah has a high rate of literacy in general.=20 Another draw for speculative fiction: Compared with those in other genres, speculative-fiction writers tend to eschew gratuitous sex, violent images or foul language, making the books more appealing to Utah audiences.= =20 "There are only a handful of authors who really do that in the field. . . . As far as I know, none of them live in Utah," said Modesitt, who is not LDS. "I don't do graphic violence. I don't dwell on chopped-up intestines and that sort of stuff."=20 And where sex is concerned: "If you know about sex, I can't write it as well as you know it, and if you don't know about sex, I'm the last person you should find out about it from."=20 For most readers, the genre is, most important, an effective and entertaining form of escapism. After a Modesitt book signing last week, Dave Willoughby said he reads speculative fiction to explore "other lands, other worlds, to see what would happen there. I can see this world just by opening my eyes."=20 Kristina McIntyre, who leads a monthly science-fiction/fantasy book group at the Barnes & Noble bookstore in Sugar House, agrees with many authors when she says regardless of fans' age or religion, they read it mostly because it's good stuff. "A lot of us grow up with stories about heroes and magic, and it kind of speaks to the mythology that's inside everybody," she said.=20 =20 Flights of fantasy=20 =20 L.E. Modesitt and Ken Rand will speak about writing speculative fiction at the Great Salt Lake Book Festival, Sept. 13 at noon at Salt Lake City Library's Main Branch, 210 E. 400 South.=20 =20 The event is free and open to the public. For information, go to www.utahhumanities.org.=20 - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:05:06 -0500 From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Retraction Regarding Horizon Some months ago, I posted a somewhat inflammatory letter regarding my experiences with Horizon Publishers and its President, Duane Crowther. Since then, Horizon Publishers has stated that due to a previously unmentioned foreclosure sale, they believe that they did own rights to my book and were acting legally and honestly when they offered my book for sale without first requesting my permission to do so. I have asked Horizon for further documentation of these claims, then consulted yet again with my attorney, before posting this needed and sincere apology. I was unaware of this foreclosure sale, which Horizon claims involved my contract, at the time I wrote the previous post. Neither Horizon or Cornerstone ever mentioned this to me at any time, either verbally or in writing, and my questions regarding the matter are not yet fully answered. However, I should never have said the things I did regarding my personal feelings, or made any public allegations regarding the honesty of the company or Mr. Crowther himself. I am truly sorry for any damage my words may have done to Horizon Publishers or Mr. Crowther's character, and wish to retract my allegations at this time completely. I am very sorry for this error in judgment. I also respectfully request the Moderators to please permanently remove the offending words from the AML-List Archive. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Linda Adams - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:12:31 -0600 From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: [none] > From: Christopher Bigelow To: "'aml-list@lists.xmission.com'" Subject: [AML] (SL Trib) Utah Speculative Fiction Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:57:40 -0600 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: aml-list [MOD: This is a resend, in hopes it will come through with the subject line= =20 this time.] Utahns devour and write a galaxy of fantasy fiction=20 By Christy Karras=20 The Salt Lake Tribune=20 It may be the culture. It may be religion or the landscape. Maybe it's something in the water. Whatever the reason, Utah has some of the nation's most prolific producers and ravenous readers of science fiction and fantasy, known in the book world as "speculative fiction."=20 Organizers of the Utah Book Awards, given annually for outstanding recent work about Utah or by Utah authors, discovered this two years ago, when they put out the word that writers in the genre were welcome to enter the fiction division.=20 "We just got overwhelmed with genre entries," said Julie Bartel, teens' librarian at the Salt Lake City Public Library and a member of the Utah Center for the Book committee that chooses award winners. The contest garnered twice as many speculative entries as mainstream ones.=20 Science-fiction author M. Shayne Bell became a finalist that year, even though judges had little experience with genre fiction. Science-fiction and fantasy authors "are really asking important questions, but they look more like entertainment," said Chip Ward, who heads the Utah Center for the Book. "If you're not used to that genre, it's hard to know if it's really serious or not."=20 Last year, for the first time, the Utah Center for the Book created a category for speculative fiction, with an award partly funded by CONduit, Utah's largest science-fiction convention.=20 The number of entries for the award highlights the number of science-fiction and fantasy writers in Utah. "Getting into the convention side of things, you realize how many writers there are who live here or have ties to here, and how many people here read science fiction and fantasy," said Bartel, a CONduit board member. "You start to wonder why."=20 =20 A religious influence: Many science-fiction and fantasy authors in Utah are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- which may seem paradoxical, since Mormons are known for being pragmatic and conservative.=20 The Mormon culture is "a little repressive, but it's also a culture that believes in things you can't see, things you take on faith. Whatever side of the religion question you come down on, it works really well," said Bartel, who is not LDS. "Where so many people spend so much time thinking about the big questions, it's got to have some influence."=20 Links between the church and science fiction can be traced largely to one man and one LDS institution. Marion "Doc" Smith, a professor in the English department at Brigham Young University, taught a science-fiction writing class for years before his death last year. That class produced many published writers, including Bell and Dave Wolverton; a publication, Leading Edge, printed by the English department; a science-fiction and fantasy club; and an annual symposium called "Life, the Universe and Everything."=20 After Smith's retirement, English professor Sally Taylor and linguistics professor Linda Adams began advising the club and symposium, which draws about 500 people every spring.=20 "Philosophically, one reason that Mormons do so well in science fiction is that, I think, science fiction is one of the genres people are writing in that has the highest ethical standard. . . . There are codes and rules and honor that I think fits well with a believing people," Adams said. Mormons also believe in a "premortal existence" and an afterlife, and that this is not the only world God will ever create. "A lot of things that seem fanciful to other people don't seem so out of the ordinary to the LDS," Adams said. "As a Mormon, it's not hard to believe in something you can't see and hear and touch right now."=20 Television and film also show evidence of Mormons' interest in science fiction, Adams said, noting that 1970s TV series "Battlestar Galactica" had many LDS writers. She has even found an occasional Mormon influence in episodes of "Star Trek."=20 "The fact is, as a Mormon you believe that there is life on other planets. We're kind of a science-fiction religion," said Wolverton, who studied poetry and literature as well as Smith's science-fiction classes at BYU.=20 About 20 years ago, Wolverton sent a story to the Writers of the Future contest, a worldwide competition originally set up by science-fiction writer and Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, and won the grand prize. Based on that, he got a three-book contract with a major publisher -- a success story almost unheard-of in the literary world.=20 "It was a little overwhelming at first," he said in a telephone interview from his home in St. George. His first book landed at No. 3 on The New York Times best-seller list. "All of a sudden, I had this reputation I had to live up to."=20 Wolverton is one of a sizable group of Utah residents who have won or placed in the contest. "It's been a joke that so many Utah writers have won Writers of the Future," said Susan Kroupa, who selects fiction for the Orem public library and has written many speculative-fiction stories.=20 Like other writers, Kroupa believes speculative fiction is a good place to explore ethical issues. She counts Orson Scott Card, who is LDS, as one of her influences. "I realized the issues I wanted to talk about -- moral, societal and cultural things that were interesting to me -- I saw how well he handled in his science fiction and fantasy. It seemed a more acceptable place to examine that than in mainstream writing."=20 Card, who lived in Utah before moving to North Carolina a few years ago, says he's not surprised to find Mormons interested in the genre. "We have no qualms about the idea of life on other planets, faster-than-light travel, ancient 'lost' civilizations, supernatural events with natural explanations," he told The Salt Lake Tribune in an e-mail message. "We view all problems as solvable, and regard human nature as being fundamentally good and humans as capable of far more, intellectually and morally, than we have yet seen in history. These are attributes of mainstream science fiction, so Mormons are comfortable in that milieu.=20 "However, the reason is really deeper than this. . . . Science fiction allows writers to deal with all the most powerful, troubling and/or difficult religious, moral and cosmological issues. Where else can you write apocalyptic, eschatological, epistemological and redemptive fiction with any kind of clarity?"=20 The road for LDS writers has not always been easy. Tracy Hickman, a devout Mormon, began his career writing role-playing games such as Dungeons and Dragons -- considered dangerous by some church members. "I was called out of church one day by a member of the stake presidency who took me out and sat down with me and asked me about my work, asked if there was anything about my work that was contrary to my beliefs," said Hickman, author of more than 50 titles, most of them in the Dragonlance series. He believes problems lie not in the genre but in a few individuals who misuse it.=20 "Everything I ever wrote, I always made sure that it was a story of ethics and a story that taught morality."=20 =20 A community of believers: Not all of Utah's speculative-fiction writers are LDS, which leads many to believe other factors are also at work. Ken Rand, who teaches writing and has published numerous stories including the collection Tales of the Lucky Nickel Saloon, once counted and came up with at least 50 Utah writers in the genre. "Yes, many Utah science-fiction writers are Mormon. . . . But there are and have been many Utah science-fiction writers who are not Mormon. And how do you account for the many atheists in the genre, including Heinlein and Asimov? The genre is a huge umbrella."=20 Rand (who is not LDS) says it may be partly the landscape itself, which inspires him. "I write a lot about the West, mostly Wyoming, but a lot of my stories are set in, or somehow related to Utah, particularly the west desert. I loved that landscape, where you could be in a spot and look around and know there is nobody within a hundred square miles of where you are."=20 Rand and others also say the helpful community of writers in Utah keeps the genre strong. "The feeling of community among science-fiction writers comes from the fact that we're all fans -- from the newest writer to the biggest publisher -- we all love reading this stuff," he said. "And we help each other. Paying forward is not just a clich=E9, it's something we do regularly as a habit, as a commitment to the betterment of the genre. The way it works: If I teach somebody who becomes a Great Writer, as that writer goes up, so does the entire literary field, and so do I with it."=20 For every Utah writer, there are many more readers. L.E. Modesitt, a prolific author whose 2002 science-fiction book Archform: Beauty won the first speculative-fiction Utah Book Award, attributes the genre's popularity among readers partly to the state's young population. Science fiction and fantasy are popular with teenagers, a group that makes up an oversize chunk of Utah's people. It is also a group notoriously reluctant to read. According to librarian Bartel, if teens read at all, it's likely they're reading speculative fiction.=20 "A lot of teens that I've talked to just lately here have mentioned that they're reading about important things" in science fiction, Bartel said, from cataclysmic battles to important social questions. "They feel like they don't have that sort of a big thing in their lives." In real life, "You can't go out and discover another country. . . . Getting a job and going out and becoming an adult doesn't seem that big or important.=20 "There's a disillusionment that kids go through when they realize they're not going to become king of the world, they'll become an accountant or something. A lot of mainstream fiction doesn't address big questions like that."=20 Ruth Hanson is chairwoman of the Reading for the Future program, which asks fans and authors to donate science-fiction and fantasy books to schools and libraries to encourage reading. The program also sponsors workshops and activities to teach educators how to incorporate speculative fiction into curricula. "It's really good for certain people, especially teenage males who are bored," Hanson said. "It's a way to ignite the spark of imagination and invite them to explore things that in the real world it might be emotionally hard to deal with."=20 Hanson believes the genre is popular throughout the state because people here tend to be technologically literate, and because Utah has a high rate of literacy in general.=20 Another draw for speculative fiction: Compared with those in other genres, speculative-fiction writers tend to eschew gratuitous sex, violent images or foul language, making the books more appealing to Utah audiences.= =20 "There are only a handful of authors who really do that in the field. . . . As far as I know, none of them live in Utah," said Modesitt, who is not LDS. "I don't do graphic violence. I don't dwell on chopped-up intestines and that sort of stuff."=20 And where sex is concerned: "If you know about sex, I can't write it as well as you know it, and if you don't know about sex, I'm the last person you should find out about it from."=20 For most readers, the genre is, most important, an effective and entertaining form of escapism. After a Modesitt book signing last week, Dave Willoughby said he reads speculative fiction to explore "other lands, other worlds, to see what would happen there. I can see this world just by opening my eyes."=20 Kristina McIntyre, who leads a monthly science-fiction/fantasy book group at the Barnes & Noble bookstore in Sugar House, agrees with many authors when she says regardless of fans' age or religion, they read it mostly because it's good stuff. "A lot of us grow up with stories about heroes and magic, and it kind of speaks to the mythology that's inside everybody," she said.=20 =20 Flights of fantasy=20 =20 L.E. Modesitt and Ken Rand will speak about writing speculative fiction at the Great Salt Lake Book Festival, Sept. 13 at noon at Salt Lake City Library's Main Branch, 210 E. 400 South.=20 =20 The event is free and open to the public. For information, go to www.utahhumanities.org.=20 =09 - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:59:56 -0400 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: Re: [AML] Perceptions of Errors (clarified) Well I can tell you the jist of a personal experience (without naming other names). I was speaking with a member who I know quite well, who is well read, scripturaly fluent--in other words, not someone who has never studied, thought, taught etc. I mentioned something I disagreed with that an apostle had said, and he was appalled. The discussion went further, and I stated that I didn't believe that everytime the OT in specific stated that something was commanded by God that it really was. He was ready to have me committed. This member, within this discussion, used several recently mentioned quoted,--will never lead you astray, speaks the word of God....... and, I think, D&C 1:37-38 to tell me how wrong I was for questioning, or at least disagreeing with, the written or spoken word. As far as he is concerned I am fast on my way to apostacy. I was in a similar discussion in a RS pres. meeting. I don't remember what policy triggered the discussion, though I believe it was a policy and not a doctrine, but the other pres. members were quite frustrated with me because I wouldn't just buy the "because the prophet said it" line. Wait, I do remember now. It had to do with visiting, or rather being prohibited to visit, a mostly inactive member of the ward that had just been arrested on child molestation charges. Not convicted mind you. Arrested. Tracie - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:02:12 -0500 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Reference in SWAT - --- Original Message --- From: "Bill Willson" >Here is to good writing designed to strengthen and uplift. IMO, writing designed to do this will ultimately do neither. The ONLY goal a writer of fiction (including Mormon fiction) should have is to tell a story about real people. If any other purpose conciously enters in, that original purpose will be damaged. What will happen to the LDS writer who writes first to tell the truth? Their writing will strengthen and uplift. Uplifting is a by-product of good writing, not a goal in and of itself. Thom - -- Thom Duncan - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:24:37 GMT From: cwilson@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Reference in SWAT Interesting that this bit of dialog could be construed to "villify" the church by misconceptions. I saw it as nicely tied into our discussion on caffeinated drinks and the care of the body. The guy in the movie came across as a real person who knows he's falling short and feels a proper amount of guilt about it. That's what I liked about the exchange; instead of a holier-than-thou guy, this was someone who failed to live up to expectations though he still seemed to believe. Cathy Wilson - --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:45:53 -0700 From: "Kathy Tyner" Subject: Re: [AML] Perceptions of Errors (clarified) To answer you question Matthew, I have heard the postulation that anything a General Authority or Leader of the Church says over the pulpit or in the Ensign is basically infallible or should be considered doctrine. I have heard it since I joined the Church in my teens. I have heard this said in SS and RS classes by teachers more times than I can count and many in the class ascenting to the premise, despite also having had the quote from Elder McConkie about being wrong read in class too. I have heard it in High Council talks, I have heard Bishops and Stake Presidents state it in one form or another. Most of the rank and file members I know believe this. I live out here in Southern California and it has always been thus. Members of course, understand that GAs are human with faults like everyone else. At least they would tell you that if you asked them. But, on an emotional level I think they believe that most GAs have transcended all things and it is a rare case when they fail in some way. They would argue that they are able to separate the fact that the Brethren fall prey to human frailties, but are certain when they speak from the pulpit, all they say is from the Lord himself. And they tend to think anyone else who doesn't view it that way is, "on the high road to apostacy". I didn't say the Brethren say this necessarily-but it is said by the rank and file all the time, and nothing much is done to have anyone think otherwise. And maybe that's worry some out there have: Perhaps too much free thinking might be a dangerous thing. Funny thing is, I've read things from Joseph Smith that had him encouraging it. Kathy Tyner Orange County, CA - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:53:28 -0700 From: "Kathy Tyner" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Reference in SWAT It doesn't hurt to show someone as human either. Some people are frankly put off by Latter-day Saints because of this super-pious image many of them work so hard to maintain. Now if the character is also shown to be a caring and compassionate human being who is doing their best to live the Savior's higher law, I believe someone might still show interest in the Church despite the member's having had a Coke or something. If the character both imbibes "forbidden" beverages and doesn't give a rat's rear end about anybody, chances are folks will dismiss him as a hypocrite. Kathy Tyner Orange County, CA - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:46:21 EDT From: JanaRiess@aol.com Subject: [AML] This List Hello friends, I just wanted to take a moment and tell you all how much I have come to love this list. This afternoon I laughed long and heartily at Chris's story about listening to Metallica while editing the Conference talks; then the very next message was Margaret Young's beautiful post about the death of her friend's husband, and how they are coping. It brought me to tears. I don't always have time to read the posts, and rarely have time to contribute much, but this list has been a great blessing for me, and I just wanted you to know. It makes me more optimistic about Mormon literature and about Mormonism in general. I also greatly enjoyed meeting many of you last week in Salt Lake and Provo. Thanks for making me feel so welcome. Jana Riess - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:51:10 -0700 From: John Dewey Remy Subject: RE: [AML] Perceptions of Errors (clarified) Matthew Lee wrote: > ...My question is, where > is this idea of non-erroring General Authorities > coming from among you on this list? > > It's clear that everyone who has posted a reply > is aware that the concept is not doctrinally correct > and it's not taught as doctrine by those with > authority to do so. What I want to know is where are > the members of this list hearing the opposite? > I've included, following my comments, three quotes that members sometimes draw upon to defend the infallibility of the GA's. I'm not saying that these are not problematic. I've provided links to where you can find them on the Church's website if you want to read them in context. Unfortunately, there seems to be more official teaching against freedom of thought in recent times. I know that there are a couple of old quotes where Brigham Young and his contemporaries exhorted the saints against blind obedience of even the highest authorities (and I believe that BY also has a couple more that contradict this counsel), but I can't think of what they are right now. Several years ago, Jana (Remy) gave me _An Abundant Life_, Hugh B. Brown's memoirs. He is now one of my favorite apostles. His book has some real gems in it--including: "We should be dauntless in our pursuit of the truth and resist all demands for unthinking conformity...Tolerance and truth demand that all be heard and tha competing ideas be tested against each other so that the best, which might not always be our own, can prevail." and, "We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. The Church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members of orthodox or heterodox as it is tha they shall have thoughts." 1. From the Doctrine and Covenants, in the excerpts at the end of Official Declaration #1: "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)" http://scriptures.lds.org/od/1 2. In the November 1979 Ensign, N. Eldon Tanner's First Presidency Message: "Today there are many issues under debate as controversies rage all around us. It should be evident to all that we need divine direction, as men and women who argue their causes seem to be unable to come to workable or peaceable solutions. It is sad indeed that the world does not know or accept the fact that in our midst is a prophet through whom God can direct the solution of world problems. "True Latter-day Saints have no such dilemma. They know that the messages of the prophet have come from the Lord and have the concurrence of all the General Authorities, who are men of vision and integrity, and who themselves try to keep in tune with deity. They are not, as some would suggest, following blindly and acting without their own agency to speak and think for themselves. Through prayer to our Heavenly Father each of us can have the assurance that the course we choose has his divine approval. "Why should there be any debate over the moral issues which are confounding the world today? From the beginning God has made his position very clear in regard to marriage, divorce, family life and love of children, immorality, chastity, virtue, and the high and holy role of women. Through his prophet today he reiterates the Old and New Testament teachings which are clear on these matters. "...[Satan] is the author of the debates on moral issues. He has sworn to thwart the purposes of God. He it is who deceives and lays in wait to promote his cunning schemes, promising the riches of this world as a reward to those who follow him. "...We cannot serve God and mammon. Whose side are we on? When the prophet speaks the debate is over." http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1979.htm/ensign% 20august%201979%20.htm/first%20presidency%20message%20the%20debate%20is% 20over.htm?fn=document-frameset.htm$f=templates$3.0 3. In General Conference, October 1992, speaking in the context of "deceivers" who are "misleading members to gather to colonies or cults," Boyd K. Packer said: "Come away from any others. Follow your leaders who have been duly ordained and have been publicly sustained, and you will not be led astray." http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1992.htm/ensign% 20november%201992%20.htm/to%20be%20learned%20is%20good%20if%20.htm?fn=do cument-frameset.htm$f=templates$3.0 In the way that I've included them here, we see a progression from: 1890: Infallibility of the "President of the Church" 1979: Infallibility of "the prophet" [could this be interpreted to include all 15 who are called as "prophets"? How about those who are called to be local "prophets" with limited jurisdiction?]. Other general authorities are also closely associated with the incontestable authority of the prophet in this message. Those who do not debate are "True Latter-day Saints"; those who debate are "those who follow [Satan]" 1992: "Duly ordained" and "publically sustained" leaders will not lead you astray. This progression is probably more a result of an accident in my selection of quotes than of an actual percolation over time of the perception of sacred, infallible authority lower and lower down the priesthood hierarchy. John Remy, UC Irvine - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #131 ******************************