From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #138 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Monday, September 1 2003 Volume 02 : Number 138 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:07:07 -0600 From: Steve Perry Subject: RE: [AML] Perceptions of Errors (clarified) On Wednesday, August 27, 2003, at 04:14PM, Annette Lyon wrote: >If something as dramatic as the Manifesto were given today, how many of us >would think, "Hmm. Not inspired this time," and move on? Or a reversal of the manifesto? That would be _my_ test. :-) Steve - -- skperry@mac.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:11:54 -0700 From: John Dewey Remy Subject: RE: [AML] Uplifting Writing Thom Duncan wrote: > > It has been my experience that a writer whose FIRST > thought is not offend or to strengthen and uplift will > invariably fail to do either. With that paradigm > driving their writing, writers will invariably find > themselves saying things like, "I [can't] show Joseph > drinking wine on the afternoon of his martrydom. It > will offend my mother." Thus, imo, losing an > opportnity to give us insight into Joseph Smith that, > prophet though he was, he was also human enough to > find comfort in the fruit of the vine at a very trying > time of his life. I tend to be prone to hero worship, and I often have a hard time when I realize just how human my heroes can be. However, I don't think that the solution to my problem is to hide my head in the sand, to shut my eyes to the frailty of the people I respect and admire. The author that Thom describes above caters to the ostriches among us. I agree with Thom that this (class of) author loses "an opportunity to give us insight"--they leave us without depth, like photographs of Rodin sculptures. The Bible does a better job of giving us rich prominent characters than most works of LDS Church history (which tend to lean to one dimensional, positive or negative portrayals--see _Under the Banner of Heaven_, for example). - - God calls all sorts of obviously imperfect people in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible: Noah, Aaron, David, Saul, Jonah, etc. - - Moses--who spends two chapters equivocating and resisting his call before he finally gives in. - - Mark's portrayal of Jesus: he often seems exasperated with those closest to him: "How is it that you do not understand?", "Why are ye so fearful? how is it that you have no faith?" - - The Twelve: they argue with each other about who is the best, they are impetuous and lack faith and understanding, and yet, when Jesus tells them that one of them will betray him, the Eleven are humble and introspective enough to ask, "Is it I?" - - The Bible seems to shout out: "God's children are flawed! He works through them in spite of/because of this!" I think that our multimedia culture, with its tunnel-vision emphasis on image and soundbites and public relations (and the institutional Church certainly participates in this), exacerbates the problem of the "perception of perfection." Many among us would have our Church leaders be little Saviors in miniature, with but minor imperfections, so as not to offend the perfection of God and Christ. I love one of President Hinckley's daughter's reactions to his being called as a GA: "I was aware of the human weaknesses my parents displayed, so Dad's call came as a little crisis of faith for me. I thought, 'How could the Lord call somebody like my dad who's so average and sometimes lacking?...I guess the Lord is just going to have to work with what he's got'" (from _Go Forward with Faith_, p. 198). I think that he's done a pretty good job. John Remy UC Irvine - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:02:27 -0400 From: Sam Brown Subject: [AML] Making Mormonism Bear Lucrative Fruit (was: BofM Movie Fireside) Hello, Margaret was right on to allude to the "money-changers" in the temple apropos this discussion of the BofM fireside. I think this is a rich area that needs a little more careful thought. Just a few examples that might merit discussion. 1. General Authority books. I've thought a lot about this, and I've talked to a variety of church leaders about this. Their books, by and large, sell because of their calling in the kingdom. They differ little if any from the writings that could be generated by any on this list, or any of a multitude of CES instructors, BYU grads, or doctrinal/inspirational hobbyists. In a certain sense, the purchase of these books allows one to participate in the joy of celebrity. This is a common phenomenon in the world at large: we won't read books by Colin Powell, Hillary Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and so on because they are well-written. We read them because they allow us to participate in the cult of those greater than we are. i see the same thing as I wander through Deseret Book on the devotional aisle. Given that these are exclusively a function of their church calling, is it moral for them to retain royalties? I would suggest that it represents a conflict of interest and priestcraft, but what makes it hard is that these really are wonderful people who for whatever reason haven't considered the ethical dimensions, and we're not a society that is particularly open to e.g. a mass letter to SLC requesting that GAs not get royalties for writing devotional literature. I'm actually all for giving a better stipend if that's what required. 2. Stephen Covey. Here is someone without particularly high authority in the church (though his original dust jackets included careful reference to his tenure as a mission president) who managed to repackage some basic Gospel insights and sell them to insensate hordes of future business leaders and aspiring entrepreneurs. His books, to my jaundiced eye, are insipid retellings of moral truths designed to make a) Covey rich, b) the reader participate in the American delusion that all excellence-focused greed/aspiration will be rewarded. Was it wrong for Covey to make millions off repackaging Gospel insights for non-Mormons? Is it priestcraft or just raw American entrepreneurial ingenuity? Is there an incendiary analogy to someone swiping a chandelier from the temple to sell it at a flea market? I vaguely associated Hyrum Smith and company with this phenomenon, exploiting our hypertrophic zeal in carrying forward the Protestant work ethic. 3. Orrin Hatch. This whole controversy about ethics being reported on the list brings it to focus. He uses, apparently with little success, his prominence to sell a collection of "patriotic" songs. This seems to speak to the same celebrity/vanity issue as 1) above, but with less obvious implication of priestcraft. 4. Beehive Clothing. This one I have no idea about. The money changers were actually, if you read contemporary scholarly commentary, considered an appropriate innovation, as offerings had to be given in sacred coin rather than the secular money of the evil Roman Empire. They charged money for the right to give offerings, but they facilitated the offerings. It's not clear to me why we pay money for garments or for temple clothing rentals. It's a great way to make the users the ones who subsidize an activity, but this isn't a toll road. I wonder why this isn't paid from tithing, particularly for the poor (though establishing who is and is not poor could be a demeaning process around something so sacred), why money changes hands in the temple. I wonder whether there's a better way to do it. 5. Living Scriptures. I remember in the late 90s watching a small group of slick-haired, Nuskinned returned missionaries descend on our ward outside Boston and begin making introductions, schmoozing, reporting that they were "doing an internship" in the area. They collected ward lists, established contact networks, and within about a week were openly peddling their mawkish cartoons about the Book of Mormon. It felt evil to dismiss them from church, as they were card-carrying, endowed LDS members, but there they were, invading our church lives with the explicit goal of making money. In protest, I decided that I will never purchase anything from that company. I can't comment on their current status. 6. Deseret Book. Someone who knows the DB mafia should let them know that putting their insignia on temple schedules or anything distributed at a temple is wholly inappropriate. In addition, this community standards censorship debacle is another reminder of what happens when business and religion are mixed, and I think it's showing its fruits: good literature is eliminated from a community's main supplier of fiction, and a quasi-ecclesiastical group with strong ties to church leadership restricts itself, at a certain level, to books with a conflict of interest, as in (1) above. 7. Mormon novelists writing for a non-Mormon audience. Brady Udall and Judith Freeman have done the best job of writing successful fiction based on Mormonism, selling it to an outside audience. While Red Waters is a decent novel per se, I doubt sales would have been impressive if it had not taken advantage of our voyeuristic fascination with polygamy. Udall's fiction ("Buckeye the Elder," and _Edgar Mint_) uses Mormon characters to great advantage, though those works would stand if you made the characters odd Protestants because they are written so well. Is there anything wrong about that? Is this an inane question? I keep slowly mulling over the idea of a novel called _Mothers and Daughters_, an updated version of Turgenev's classic _Fathers and Sons_, based in a traditional family on Salt Lake's East Bench. If it were to be successful, it would be as a function of its exploration of the strangeness of upper-middle-class Wasatch Front Mormonism. Is that exploiting my religion for profit? I don't have great answers, just an anxious awareness that we could do better. - -- Yours, Samuel Brown, MD Massachusetts General Hospital sam@vecna.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:03:46 -0500 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] _Irreantum_ Issue on Romance >ESSAYS >Don't Call My Book a Bodice-Ripper! Or, The Value of Romance Fiction, I await this and its associated articles with much anticipation. I can understand about every other type of literature but, wrt romance, I just don't get it. It seems to me to be a form of benign pornography where the nasty parts happen in the reader's mind. Stories which, if the exciting parts were detailed, the genre's own fans (at least the LDS ones) would be embarassed to read. Had my ex been the reader of romances I would have wondered what was wrong with me as a huband. Just as she would rightly wonder what was wrong with her had I been reading Penthouse at the kitchen table. I called Romance a "genre" abve. I think Romance is a genre wannabe. Unlike true genres (horrors, fantasy, mystery, sf), which have intrested readers running the gamut of age and gender, Romance readers are for the most part, women who share a certain age and marital dissatisfaction. I'm hoping Barbara's article and the others will help to persuade me differently. But I have tried to read these novels and I can't more than a page in. They must be talking to someone other than me because I just don't get it. - -- Thom Duncan - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:33:04 -0500 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Killer in Best Picture Oscar Winner - --- Original Message --- From: "Preston Hunter" To: aml-mag@lists.xmission.com Subject: [AML] Mormon Killer in Best Picture Oscar Winner >"Chicago," released in 2002, won the Academy Award for Best Picture. This >movie features a blatantly anti-Mormon reference which trades on old and >inaccurate religious and ethnic stereotypes. It has long been my hope that we never have a Mormon Defense League, or some similar organization that rides on free publicity to make its organzation more well known in the world. I would hope that we as Mormons will choose to be less sensitive to non- favorable portrayals of us or our life-style. I would hope we can take the high ground and not write letters to the editor every time a book or movie comes out that tries to portray us with a broad brush. I'm never impressed when some organzation makes the papers because its core constituants are complaing about such and such. Most recently, a jewish organization up in arms over Mel Gibson's Christ movie. I am always wondering how loyal to their own organization that group is or are they using the automatic buzz about the movie to get their names in the papers so the next time they go out and ask for donations (they are always non profit groups) they will be seen as a viable organization. I think the best and the only really powerful way to combat negative publicity about Mormons is to produce art that will change people's minds. The more movies like "Brigham City" there are, the more people will evenutally come to understand that "we are not weird." - -- Thom Duncan - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:44:11 -0600 From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: RE: [AML] BofM Movie Fireside > As a student at BYU many years ago, I attended a married student ward in > the > Deseret Industries building. I remember walking into sacrament meeting > and > the guy in charge of programs handed me one. He just happened to be a > Beneficial Life agent, and lookey here, at the bottom, he'd printed the > slogan, "Is Your Life Beneficial?" with his name and phone number. > Greg Taggart I recall being in Provo ward for a few months (just before the Y2K flop) and the Elder's Quorm president *every SUnday* somehow managed to work in a mention that he was employed by Emergency Essentials. Oh, and half the lessons he gave were on being prepared with your food storage and emergency supplies. While thos lessons used GA quotes and Church policy, I felt it was a bit self-serving. I think, though, that this is where the arts (especially film and literature) can help out. As Margaret Young pointed out once about a different type of person, I feel these guys are like somewhat like cockroaches - if we can shine the light on them in the right way, they'll scatter. - --ivan wolfe - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:51:50 -0600 From: "Peter Chamberlain" Subject: RE: [AML] BofM Movie Fireside That's pretty funny. A couple of years ago the McDonald's across the street ran a conference special on extra value meals. Breakfast came with coffee and lunch/dinner came with caffeinated coke. The problem this scheduling causes is when to take the young men out to ice cream for sitting through priesthood. Peter Chamberlain Senior Estimator Westcon Microtunneling (801) 830-8481 pchamberlain@westcon.net - -----Original Message----- Boy, you think the BofM fireside was close to the edge, what about BYU football. I dunno, guess I've been out of the loop too long, sounds to me like straight out of the Sugar Beet. Chris--is Tad Walch one of your writers? - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:53:30 -0600 From: Tom Matkin Subject: RE: [AML] Street Painting in Italy The street painter toils with chalk on some ephemeral eddy in the constant river of human passage. The painting has its peculiar genre, always a little too bright, too jangling, too loud to hold, but meant to catch my attention. Beauty so out of place here on the grimy asphalt, that it's wrong enough to surprise and delight. So European. Sacred ground for a day and then back to being the common indistinct pathway of everyman, only now, for weeks to come it will be smudged with faded colored chalk and indifferent to the rain that took away its virtue in the first place. Madonna or Rembrandt or Elvis (usually the Vegas one) it doesn't matter, it is a street painting for Heaven's sake! As old as footsteps. A cousin to the elaborate ice sculptures, magnificent sand castles, and amazing buskers who decorate and prowl around the beaches, footpaths and parkways of life. The painter stands just back, and watches me stop, satisfied at first to have reeled me in, but then hoping I'll throw my coins in the basket too so she can paint again another day. You paint on girl. Paint on. Tom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:36:24 -0600 From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Perceptions of Errors (clarified) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Duncan" > > > Bill Willson wrote: > > > > >If humans are not perfect, and GA's are humans, then it stands to reason > >that Ga's are not perfect, but they are more perfect than any of the rest of > >us, > > Thom replied: > "More" perfect? Is that like "almost" pregnant. Someone is either > perfect, or they are not. GAs are no more or less perfect than any > other mortal who walks the earth. I do agree with you, though, in that > there are problems if we hold them to the extreme of either spectrum. > So? I know I'm not perfect, but it doesn't take a huge stretch of imagination to translate "more perfect" to "almost perfect," or "closer to perfection." Anyone knows one can't be almost pregnant, that is ludicrous. Surely you must be nit picking just a bit. I can't agree with, "Someone is either perfect or they are not." As far as I know, Jesus was the only perfect mortal to walk the earth. Nor do I agree with, "GAs are no more or less perfect than any other mortal who walks the earth." They certainly are "more perfect" than you or I, and hopefully we are a little further along the way toward perfection than say, the average dissident ranting and raving against the church on Temple Square Plaza. And yes, I agree, there are problems if we hold them to the extreme of either spectrum. Bill - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:01:12 -0600 From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Perceptions of Errors (clarified) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Hume" > Probably the strongest thing that drew me to the Church was that the > missionaries said, "Don't believe this because we say so. Pray about it and > you'll get an answer." I've also been taught to listen prayerfully to the > conference talks. There have been many, many times when I have felt the > Spirit witness to me the truth of something I was hearing. There has also > been at least one time when I leaped to my feet in outrage and said, "That > is not right!" I think all of us leap to our feet on occasion, when we hear dark doctrine coming from supposedly reliable sources. That is why we have the spirit of the Holy Ghost to help us along and sort things out. We need to write about how the spirit can guide and direct us away from error, and help us too recognize the truth. I remember twice in the latter half of the last century coming home from priesthood steamed, because I had been taught that I couldn't be a good member of the church and be a member of a union, and similarly not a good member if a Democrat, or a liberal. Sorry, but to my mind that's just plain not true. The spirit has prompted me to think that if Christ were on the earth today, he quite possibly could be a liberal, or a Democrat, or a union member. I hope no one will accuse me of blasphemy here. Bill Willson - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:37:20 -0800 From: Stephen Carter Subject: RE: [AML] Heavenly Mothers >===== Original Message From Clark Goble ===== > ___ Tom ___ >| I've been looking for a reference for an anecdote about >| heavenly mothers that someone told me Joseph Smith had >| said. Here is what my friend said: Joseph Smith was >| once lying on the ground looking up into heaven when he >| said to a friend beside him: "Do you know what I see? I >| see a father, a mother, and a son." Apparently later >| church leaders edited out mother and replaced it with >| Holy Spirit. > ___ It sounds to me like Joseph was interpreting clouds. Just after "a father, a mother, and a son," he probably said, "and that cloud there looks like a curelom, don't you think?" I apologize if that joke was too obvious. Stephen Carter Fairbanks, Alaska - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:11:12 -0600 From: "Eric Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Caffeinated Drinks Well, sure. Lot's of people can't stand the taste of the stuff, and = that says nothing about their political or religious views. =20 I was simply trying to convey my sense of how the Diet Coke issue seems = to play out in our culture. Diet Coke drinking seems to me to be = perceived as having something of a political component. It probably = doesn't, actually, but that's how it seems to be perceived. Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:12:35 -0600 From: "Kim Madsen" Subject: [AML] AML-List Members in Theater? (was: Fiddler on the Roof Performance) Nan McCulloch wroteL "'Not every woman in the world is a Yente,' but I am blessed to play her for a season." This cracks me up and intrigues me, because I also do theater...I'm in rehearsals for a production of THE SCARLET PIMPERNEL right now. Then I thought of Thom, and Scott and so many others (not to mention the professional filmmakers/screenwriters that rear their heads here), and I wondered "how many people on this list are theater rats as well?" C'mon, 'fess up, by a a click of the mouse--how many of you have performed in plays/musicals in your lives. How many still do? You can answer me off list so we don't clog this place, if you prefer (kcmadsen@utah-inter.net). [MOD: I'm fine with doing this on AML-List, though I'll probably compile responses into a few compilation posts if there are very many.] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:15:06 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Ordination of Elijah Abel He is not entirely accurate. The men were sealed but not as mates, but more along the lines of being sealed as family members, like brothers. I can't remember exactly who the two guys were. But I seem to recall that John Taylor was sealed as a son to Joseph, or something like that. It was done all the time in those early days. Thom Barbara Hume wrote: > At 01:59 PM 8/23/03 +0000, you wrote: > >> Apparently, there are a number of people wondering about the veracity >> of the claim that Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel to the priesthood. > > > A gay friend of mine says that Joseph Smith also presided over a > marriage between two men. Anybody know anything about that claim? He > gave me no documentation. > - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:17:49 -0600 From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] BofM Movie Fireside Lisa Tait wrote: >Whatever the product or situation, I just don't see any appropriate way to >use the church as a marketing avenue. > I do. Let everyone advertise whatever they want under the understanding that these advertisements aren't officially supported by the Church. A special bulletin board in each chapel, or something like that. Thom > > - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:18:41 -0600 From: "Kim Madsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Caffeinated Drinks Nan said: "Sorry to spoil your exercise in type-casting, but I hate the taste of Diet Coke preferring just regular Coke w/caffeine. I am also a Republican, who craves challenging history and searches out unconventional as well as conventional doctrine. I do my teaching whenever I get around to it and always wear my hats at a jaunty angle." And not only are my hats at a jaunty angle--they are RED...while sometimes the rest of me wears purple. I'm that age, you know. I hate COKE in every form, but that's because I dislike the taste of colas. I like root beer and Fresca is my fav. I vote all over the map which causes my Democratic good friend to roll his eyes. We are humans first, Mo's second. No one can categorize us. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:33:18 -0600 From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Changing the Words (was: Is It Funnier with the Profanity?) - ---Original Message From: Jongiorgi Enos Orson Scott Card has contributed two bits to this discussion. I found it interesting that he used it as an opportunity to discuss artistic arrogance. http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2003-08-10-1.html Jacob Proffitt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:00:21 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] _Irreantum_ Issue on Romance At 09:03 AM 8/29/03 -0500, you wrote: >I'm hoping Barbara's article and the others will help >to persuade me differently. But I have tried to read >these novels and I can't more than a page in. They >must be talking to someone other than me because I >just don't get it. Of course they're talking to someone other than you. Just as Clive Cussler is talking to someone other than me. But I don't make rude remarks about that type of literature just because it doesn't resonate with me. The fact that 55% of the paperback market in the country is romance tells you that there is a market. And they are not porn! They are about love, not about sex--never mind the ones to which Sturgeon's Law applies. For some reason, books about people killing people are fine, but books about people finding love are bad. Go figure. barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:13:17 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Uplifting Writing At 05:40 PM 8/28/03 -0600, you wrote: >What's wrong with having >the > > purpose of honestly exploring and portraying human reality, both the good > > and the bad, and letting the chips fall where they may with regards to how > > people view the LDS Church? I've been intrigued by the use of the word "exploring" in discussions of this kind. I'd love for some listers here to tell me how they perceive that concept. Does it mean portraying? Does it mean showing both sides of an issue? Does it mean showing that certain things exist with no attempt to explain them or deal with their significance? Does it mean dropping an ambiguity in the laps of the audience and calling it good? Does it mean avoiding any indication that something might be good, or that something might be bad? barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #138 ******************************