From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #187 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Saturday, October 11 2003 Volume 02 : Number 187 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:54:30 -0600 From: Clark Goble Subject: Re: [AML] Movie Moratorium ___ Randall ___ | I guess I naively believe that the muse will | always inspire a work that could be a great | film. Socrates Muse as you point out was not | appreciated by his contemporaries so he would | not have been produced as a filmaker. | ___ Actually I believe the problem with Socrates was the people didn't feel=20 he was listening to the muses. Remember that the charge against him=20 was leading youth into atheism. (Or words to that effect) He went=20 about undercutting the religion of the time. One can't help but wonder of the "state" of this muse/daemon. Some=20 argue that Socrates was being satirical, or at least engaged in=20 "negative theology." i.e. I don't know what the muse is, but I'm=20 trying to follow it. And others see it in more neoPlatonic terms as=20 the source of some abstract quality. That seems a bit of a diversion, until one asks the obvious question:=20 to a Mormon what is a muse? I think you are trying to argue for some sort of inspiration. But I=20 see a problem in that the "muse" most artists listen to might be=20 creative, but it is often hard to tie it to the light of Christ or the=20 Holy Ghost. In such as case what is the muse? Is it the artist's=20 creativity? Exactly what is this thing that one ought to be true to? ___ Randall ___ | On the subject of Muses, I recommend we take another look | at Nibley's great article in his book the Ancient State: | | Three Shrines Sophic, Mantic, and Sophistic. | | What part does the Mantic play in ART? ___ Of course Nibley appears to be largely a platonist of some sort. =20 Perhaps a different question might be, why adopt the rhetoric and=20 conceptual schemes of late antiquity when they clearly are apostate? =20 (Besides which if we are appealing to late antiquity I'd probably=20 choose the Stoics, which will definitely throw you off) BTW - if we invoke Plato, how do you respond to his views on artists=20 and poets? How do you respond to _The Republic_? ___ Randall ___ | However, I raise the question how much of the | author's work is really "original." ___ Of course one can ask that without invoking inspiration. Given that=20 artists work with objects that pre-exist, those objects have a=20 constitution which is beyond the artist. Thus any art is in part,=20 unoriginal. ___ Randall ___ | In earlier ages more credit was given to | inspiration and a shared ethos. The chinese for | example reveled in an idea that was "copied many | times." ___ Once again interesting since one reason Plato had such a bad view of=20 artists/poets was that they were copies of copies. Further he has=20 Socrates taking a rather negative view of acting I think, when he=20 critiques the ability of people to read the speeches of the Sophists=20 without understanding them. i.e. that secondary productions are=20 inferior because they lack that life that original works have. There is also that idea in Greek thought that art is letting a thing=20 show itself. Thus in a very real sense, creativity in the modern=20 sense, was frowned upon. i.e. the artist as creator. Rather what was=20 valued was that which was eternal and thus unoriginal. Not a copy mind=20 you - but the thing itself. It doesn't take much reading of ancient literature to see that how they=20 viewed art and literature was very different from what we do. It=20 wasn't the issue of *copying* but rather than there was one true thing=20 behind reality that was let to shine forth. Copying implies a focus on=20 the representation rather than the thing itself. Repetition in the=20 ancient world was something else entirely. Exactly how that bears on movie making, I can't say for sure. =20 Obviously though our culture values the original and distrusts the=20 "same." This was once inverted. We've discussed before these "eternal=20 things which shine forth." The archetypes that underlay myth. And=20 they are in our films. It is interesting to me that many of those who have criticized film and=20 tv here have done so because of the unoriginality of those shows. =20 Ignoring that issue for the moment, it is interesting that we do have=20 that as a value. Curious, no? Which takes us full circle back to the muse. Were the muses singing=20 their songs of eternity? In which case it seems that they couldn't be=20 singing creativity of the modern sort. Or were these the ancient=20 muses? Does this mean that the true Hollywood muse listeners are=20 people like Glen Larson or Aaron Spelling are the ones listening to the=20 muses? Of course that would upset many, wouldn't it? Clark Goble - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:47:54 +0000 From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: Re: [AML] If you could have your wish... 1. The Producers Yeah, same story as the movie, with just more, more, more. Big=20 entertainment doesn't get much better. Remember, however, how the film had=20 some vaudville-style va-va-va-voom naughtiness, the play has more of it, in=20 case you have kids with you. 1a. Urinetown. I can't reccomend it enough, actually funnier then The=20 Producers, about as good of music, and much more interesting in a cerebral=20 sense. This is the play we talked about for days afterwards. And it=20 probably has a smaller chance of making it to your regional theaters=20 eventually (although a traveling company will be doing it in Utah soon). 2. Chicago. For all the reasons that the movie was good, plus a lot more=20 Fosse dancing. A big difference is the costumes. Remember in the=20 dream/dance scenes in the jail, how the women wore very little clothing? In=20 the play, it is like that the whole time. And the theater is not that big,=20 so you are right there with all these tall, half-dressed women for a long=20 time. It made my wife nervous the whole time she watched it, so she did not=20 enjoy the show much, but then she liked the movie when it came out. 3. Hairspray. Haven't seen it, heard it is a fun show. Not a kid's show,=20 but even though it is based on a John Waters movie, I don't think it has anything objectionable. Is Throughly Modern Minnie still playing? That is also a very fun show. We=20 walked in for free after intermssion after we left a show we hated. You can=20 do that for most Broadway shows. Lion King--Impressive sets/costumes/puppetry, but the music and story don't=20 do too much for me. Good enough, but save it for the inevitable regional=20 touring company. Caberet--I have not seen the new one, it certainly got good reviews, but be=20 aware that the debauchary level is cranked up high. Phanotm-Hated it. Haven't seen the others. Is Bernadette Peters still in Gypsy? I would see that if I had the chance. I'm back, by the way, although I still probably won't post much for a little=20 while. I enjoyed catching up on the posts I missed. I am still in Japan,=20 waiting to complete our daughter's US visa. The adoption was completed this=20 week, and the visa should take another month or so. Jen went home to start=20 teaching at the University of North Texas, north of Dallas, and the rest of=20 us will join her as soon as we can. Andrew Hall Fukuoka, Japan _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. =20 http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=3Dfeatures/es - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:02:37 -0500 From: "Linda Kimball" Subject: Re: [AML] If you could have your wish... I LOVED Urinetown. It knows the name is a turnoff - in fact there's a song about the way the title will turn off audiences. The play is extremely funny, campy and smart. The actors are fabulous and the music/lyrics put them through their paces. How that woman sings "It's a Privilege to Pee" is still a mystery to me. What a range! The play is thoughtful about our pc/environmental issues. It's told with an over-the-top twist (if you really have a thing against pee-references, then this is not the story for you), gently bends a taboo (who DOES like pee references!?- besides 8 year old boys) to talk about something common to all of us and makes a point about consequences of our actions. It's coming to Chicago in December (where I live) and I definitely plan to go again. I wish I'd written it. My 2 cents worth - Linda Kimball - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:52:22 -0500 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Stock Emotions and Sentimentalism - --- Original Message --- From: Jonathan Langford >To put it another way: What is sentimentality, and how do we recognize >it, and why is it bad for us, both as creators of art and as consumers >of art? > Saturday's Warrior has a classic sentimental scene: Where little Emily is begging Jimmy from the Pre- Existence to do the right thing. It is sentimental because we are moved by the scene because Emily is just so damn cute. And who, but the bigest curmudgeon, isn't moved by a cute kid? Those kinds of scenes are easy to write. Get the same reaction from a typically unlikeable character and you've accomplished something as a writer. For instance, can you write a scene where Hitler comes across as sympathetic to the families of Holocaust Survivors? Do that and you can be sure your character isn't pure sentimental. - -- Thom Duncan - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:17:16 -0400 From: Sam Brown Subject: [AML] deviant artists Hello, I agree artists are deviants in mainstream society, just as prophets are. In a sense I think they both represent people afflicted by a vision of society that disrupts their ability to function normally in that society. (I think Hugh Nibley has described this fact well, though I can't remember which book it's in). Perhaps this is another approach to understanding kitsch: art produced by an artist who is not thereby pushed outside society. And they aren't pushed out of society because what they're expressing is the same thing that everyone in the society has learned to express in the same circumstances. Rather than being afflicted with special sight, they are merely patient enough to commit to paper the predictable thinking of the majority of society. This underlies my nauseated impatience with most genre fiction and much of contemporary cinema. My only reservation about Thom's post on this topic is his failure to mention two of our greatest artists, both clearly deviant in this sense: Neil Labute and Brady Udall. - --=20 Yours, Samuel Brown, MD Massachusetts General Hospital sam@vecna.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:45:59 -0600 From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] If you could have your wish... Linda Adams wrote: > If you had a nifty chance for a trip to New York, and were planning on > a > > Broadway show, which of these would you pick and why? Depends on what you're looking for. Pure entertainment? You can't beat "Thoroughly Modern Millie." If Sutton Foster is still playing the lead, this is a can't miss. Also, despite its rather unsavory title, Urinetown is a great show. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:13:12 -0600 From: Steve Perry Subject: [AML] Announcing "The Cricket & Seagull" Hi AMLers, Here is an announcement of a new project that just got off the ground=20 today -- and this time it's not just for those in the Northern UT area,=20 it's for anyone with a 56K or faster connection. Once you see what it is, feel free to send me names of LDS authors=20 you'd like to hear/see featured. You can send the names off-list. Here's the blurb: =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D ANNOUNCING "THE CRICKET & SEAGULL" Meridian Magazine announces the beginnings of Meridian Radio! Starting=20 today, you can always find the latest edition of "The Cricket & Seagull=20 Fireside Chat" on MeridianMagazine.com. Every two weeks "The Cricket & Seagull" will be the=20 faithful-but-informal voice bringing music and interviews of interest=20 to Latter-day Saints and their friends to a world-wide audience. And,=20 unlike regular radio, you can listen on demand when=20 you have time, even while reading your AML posts! Songwriter & playwright Steven Kapp Perry starts today bringing us the=20 experiences, knowledge, and passions of authors,=20 artists, musicians, scholars, and fellow Saints -- all in their own=20 unique voice. Pull up a chair and join us for "The Cricket & Seagull=20 Fireside Chat"! Listen at: http://www.meridianmagazine.com/radio =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D We now return you to your regularly scheduled list! Thanks, Steve Perry - -- skperry@mac.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:12:05 +0000 From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] LAWSON, "Day of Defense" (Newspaper reviews) Friday, October 10, 2003 'Day of Defense' is windily offensive A low point in LDS-targeted filmmaking By Jeff Vice Deseret Morning News DAY OF DEFENSE - * - Andrew Lenz, Brooks Utley, Michelle Wright, John Foss,=20 Allan Groves, Lillith Fields, James Westwood; rated PG (violence). "Inherit the Wind" this ain't. Although, come to think of it, "Day of=20 Defense" is pretty windy. However, seemingly endless scenes filled with religious and theological pontificating aren't the only things wrong with this drama, which is based on A. Melvin McDonald's best-selling novel. This well-intentioned but considerably flawed film is so stagy and so ham-fisted that it practically begs to be mocked by audiences, and it wears out its welcome in a hurry. On the surface, "Day of Defense" would seem to have a lot going for it, not the least of which is a premise based on a subject - religious freedom - that's been on a lot of minds lately. Especially locally. The subject is examined through the experiences of two LDS missionaries - Elder Burke (John Foss) and Elder Davis (Allan Groves). They've just arrived in Marysville, a (fictional) Midwest community that's not exactly open to proselytizing. In fact, the town has a law that prevents anyone from preaching within city limits unless they have a license to do so. And the only way to get such a license is to go before the Christian Town Council, which seems dead- set against giving them one. So to prove their point, they take their disagreement to the courts. However, they've got quite a challenge facing them when they have to convince the public defender, Thomas Bryant (Andrew Lenz), to even take the case. He's extremely reluctant to do so. And it's not just because he's afraid to incur the town's wrath. It turns out the prosecuting attorney is his best friend, James Radner (Brooks Utley), who wants to preserve the status quo at all costs. This film may mark the low point of the recent glut of LDS-specific filmmaking. Its message is hammered home with such a lack of subtlety, and its characters are so unlikable, that you may wish for them to fail in their efforts. And the rather amateurish performances by all involved don't help. Utley and James Westwood (one of the film's producers) practically twirl moustaches as the villains, while Lenz (who also wrote this adaptation) sometimes has the look of a deer caught in the headlights. "Day of Defense" is rated PG for two brief scenes of violence (a scuffle and a vehicular accident, which is overheard but not shown). Running time: 102 minutes. Copyright 2003 Deseret News Publishing Company FRIDAY October 10, 2003 Short Takes: Movie reviews in brief By Sean P. Means The Salt Lake Tribune Day of Defense Rated PG for thematic elements; 102 minutes; opening today at area theaters. Where's the ACLU when you need it? That's what two LDS missionaries (John Foss and Allan Groves) should be asking when they arrive in a town where a "Christian town council" issues licenses to control who can proselytize, First Amendment be damned. The elders are arrested and assigned a public defender (Andrew Lenz) who must prove in court that Mormons are Christians. This windy entry in the Mormon Cinema genre (based on a Deseret Book title by A. Melvin McDonald) delivers its message with all the heavy-handedness of a Jack Webb anti-communist propaganda film, handicapped by stilted dialogue, wooden acting, shoddy cinematography and an oppressive power-ballad soundtrack. Even the faithful may find it a longrow to hoe. Copyright 2003, The Salt Lake Tribune. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:53:53 -0600 From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: [AML] Harry Potter=20 I agree with both Linda and Melissa about Harry Potter 5. Was it too long? I'll say. Tedious? You bet. It took me the entire summer to slog through volume 5. I kept reading for the same reason I keep going to those long, boring PTO meetings--out of duty, because I'm a mom. I also happen to be a writer of children's books, which puts additional weight on the already heavy obligation I feel to read Harry Potter. I finally finished the book a couple of weeks ago. I even started enjoying it toward the end. And here's where I have to agree with Melissa. J.K. Rowling knows what she's doing. Even if I don't particularly care for her stuff, most kids and many adults eat it up! They can't get enough of it, they want the books to be 2000, 3000 pages long! "Ah, it ended too soon," my eleven-year-old complained as he reluctantly closed the book after reading the final paragraph and looking in vain for page 871. "When will the next one be out!?" Like Linda, I become very impatient with Harry--and Hagrid, and Ron, and Hermione, and Dumbledore, and . . .[insert name]--who don't ever seem to *learn* anything from the previous books. Where's the growth? Where's the character development? And why does Dumbledore always save the day at the end? It's a cardinal rule of children's books that the kids themselves should solve the problem. The Harry Potter books just don't feel like good literature. They just don't reflect real life. (Well, duh. They're about witches and wizards and giants!). Okay, okay, but you know what I mean. Even in fantastical settings, the characters should feel *true*. But maybe the HP characters are true. Maybe they are actually truer to life than they are to the conventions of literature. Isn't the frustration we feel with Harry's thickness the same frustration we feel with Laman and Lemuel? Isn't it the same frustration we feel with ourselves when we continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over and over again? And, like it or not, the truth is that kids *can't* always solve their problems by themselves. They're kids, for Pete's sake. Anyway, it will be interesting to see where Rowling takes Harry in books 6 and 7. I guess I'll have to read them to find out. Groan. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:31:52 -0700 From: Harlow S Clark Subject: Re: [AML] Literature on the Mountain Meadows Massacre OK, I finally read this message. TURN AGAIN HOME, Herbert Harker, Random House, 1977, has somewhat to do with the Massacre. For books written before 1950, John D. Lee is a character in JOSHUA THE GIANT. He saves someone's life, Erastus Snow's, I think, which adds poignance to his own execution. Indeed, because we know what is coming, the whole scene has added poignance as we read it. If you want plays as well as fiction: TWO-HEADED by Julie Jensen was produced in 2000 by Salt Lake Acting Company, and there are some reviews of it in the AML-List archives (which I have all 90 or so megabytes of) for that year FIRE IN THE BONES by Tom Rogers Harlow S. Clark On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:59:45 -0700 "jana" writes: > Hi folks: > > I am working on a list of fiction that mentions the Mountain > Meadows Massacre--it could be a huge part of the storyline, > it could be a one-liner. So far my list is pretty short, > and I'm not sure of all of these are fiction: > > RED WATER, Judith Freeman > THE FERRY WOMAN, Gerald Grimmett > WINE-DARK SEA OF GRASS, Marilyn Brown > THROUGH BONDS OF LOVE, Anna Jean Backus > THE FANCHER TRAIN, Amelia Bean > SATAN'S CARAVAN, Grace Conlon > THE MORMON AND MR. SULLIVAN, Hugh Wynn > TURN AGAIN TO MOUNTAIN MEADOWS, Chris Arrington > > Can ya'll help me with my list? I'm particularly interested in > knowing of any books prior to 1950 that deal with the MMM. > > Thanks!, > Jana Remy > UCIrvine ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:22:19 -0500 From: "Walters, Isaac C" Subject: RE: [AML] If you could have your wish... You can find out more information about some of your less well know options in American Theatre Magazine. There is a cover story about "The Donkey Show" in the January 2002 edition and one about "Urinetown" in the February 2003 edition. If you are also liberally minded about content you might also consider Mary Zimmerman's "Metamorphoses". Don't know if it's still running, it is supposed to be spectacular. Isaac Walters - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:50:24 -0600 From: Margaret Blair Young Subject: Re: [AML] Work & Glory Movie or I'm glad Eric Snider supplied the actual numbers for the BOM[b] movie. I had a sense it was failing miserably. My husband still wants to see it, but I think he'll have to take someone other than me. (Please volunteer to me personally.)=20 When the movie was first announced, I had a sick feeling about what it would be--and apparently, from what Michael M. said, I was pretty right about the cardboard characters. What interested me was that after a scathing review of the BOMM appeared in BYU's _Daily Universe_, my students began talking about it.=20 Without exception, all were appalled that the movie had ever been made. One student was really upset over a preview she'd seen which depicted Nephi KISSING a woman. This simply did not fit into the YW Handbook and can anyone really believe that our heroic Nephi would actually engage in some Hestonesque kissing?=20 Did they kiss back then? Anyway, not a single one of my students had any desire to see the movie. One offered to see it if the class would pay for his ticket--just so he could report. I was genuinely surprised by this reaction and, I admit, heartened. I do wonder what all they were reacting to. I still wonder why the target audience didn't respond to the movie at all, as it seems from Eric's numbers. Does this mean there's hope? Is it possible that the Mormon movies that have succeeded have done so either because of quality (Richard Dutcher's) or because of humor (a sure key to the Mormon heart)?=20 Incidentally, after Bruce and I heard Richard's lecture on the best movies he'd seen, we began watching them. Not all are available. We saw Tarkovsky's _Solaris_ and have decided to attend BYU's "International Cinema" rather than the cheap movies we've been going to for our dates. I spoke with Tom Rogers last week and told him about what we were seeing. He was thrilled that we had discovered Tarkovsky, though he said _Solaris_ is his least favorite. As for our reaction--honestly, our lives are changing. We have stayed up way past bedtime to talk about the implications of the films. Bruce told me yesterday that he couldn't stop thinking about _Solaris_. Well, I think Richard has raised the bar for himself and for others. I see Richard as our best hope right now for a Mormon movie that can change lives, but I suspect there are other LDS film makers on the rise who will join in a greater effort that what we saw last year. Maybe the cycle of lousy movies is waning and disappointed moviegoers can invest in the Utah Filmmakers Alliance or _The Prophet_. (Or feel free to invest in _Eleventh Hour: Blacks and the LDS Church_.) - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:11:57 EDT From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: [AML] Hooray for "Holywood" In a message dated 10/9/03 9:00:24 PM Mountain Daylight Time,=20 eric@ericdsnider.com writes: > My point, I guess, is that Mollywood films' success will probably > prove to be the same mixed bag as that of Hollywood films'. I would like to make one very heart-felt request. Can we all please stop referring to LDS Cinema as "Mollywood?" For one thing: nobody outside the white American LDS population would even=20 "get it." For another thing: it misrepresents many of the films that have been made.=20 "Brigham City" came out of Mollywood? Give me a &*%#@! break. If at least some of our films were being made by highly conservative Relief=20 Society sisters, then, alright. It would fit. If you want to watch me spontaneously vomit, just say "Mollywood" in my=20 presence. If for some horrible, self-hating reason we decide to actually apply this=20 label to LDS film, then I'm getting out. "Holywood," fine. "Mollywood," I'm gone. Richard Dutcher [ed.: I vote for Holywood, myself. --Jacob] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:13:01 -1000 From: Randall Larsen Subject: Re: [AML] Good Ideas (was Movie Moratorium) Jongiorgi, I don't have any investors chomping at the bit at the moment. When I said there was always money for good ideas, I didn't mean that the artist wouldn't have to do his homework. From observation I would say it usually takes a year to two years to raise the money for a big project. Those producers who have good track records can borrow from the bank as long as they have a distribution guarantee and their organization can get a completion bond. In my experience the investors arrive on the scene many times when we have nothing to show them. About 1986 I was sitting in the airport in Nice when Soraya Khashogi (ex-wife of multi-billionaire) Adnan Khashogi sat down next to me. She wasn't afraid to talk to me because (she said) she had seen me arrive on a charter flight the day before. She also remembered me from when I was a customer at her ex-husbands bank in Walnut Creek California. We talked for about an hour since we were both waiting for our charter flights to come in [mine was actually a scheduled flight that wasn't due until the next morning (I had spent my budget at the festival du film so I was spending the last night in the airport)]. I told her my experience in Hollywood with 3D movies etc. I mentioned a script I was writing about the lives of the rich and famous. I asked her, "If the very rich family in my story was living in London, where would the kids go to school." She said "well all of my friends send their children to Millfield school." I asked her "would the Kids arrive in chauffered limosines?" She said. "yes some do; however she added that the children are usually very embarrased about how rich they are. They prefer to be brought to school in an unpretentious car. "If I sent my children to school in the P-6 (rolls)," she said, "they would get teased by all their classmates." She gave me many other insights that helped make my story realistic. After a while, She started asking me questions. What did I think about investing in Utah. I was for it--"Utah will be the next Silicon Valley." She also told me that the Khashogi organization had been asked to invest in a 10 million dollar 3D cartoon. She wanted to know what I thought about that idea. I told her that 3D works best for Kids who are always curious about "new technology." I said that if it was a good story they ought to go for it. Well it turns out that the film-- a sci-fi cartoon with a somewhat adult story line was a real loser. I understand they lost big time on the deal. Now if I had had a project ready to submit to them I might have got funding myself. As it sits now, the Khashogis are probably not in the mood to receive a submission from me. Most people I am convinced (including myself) are too busy making a living to realize any of their serious dreams. Unless one is born with a gold spoon in his mouth, he is going to have a hard time finding the money and the energy to realize his dreams. I think those that do realize their dreams have just made up their minds to do so. They are ready when opportunity knocks. You are are welcome to look me up if you get to Hawaii. About all I can promise at this point is good weather. However, I am open to collaborating on projects (I have equipment and expertise just no money). kind regards, Randall Larsen Honolulu, Hawaii - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:14:58 -0600 From: "Eric Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Negative Themes and Artistic Value I would love to know which contemporary films "glamorize adultery and murder." I can hardly think of a single film I've seen in the last five years which does either. I can think of lots of pop culture which DEPICT adultery or murder. I can think of plenty of films which show enough skin that those who watch them might be TEMPTED to commit adultery. But I can't think of a single one which glamorize murder or adultery. Specifics, anyone? Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:00:30 -0600 From: "Eric Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] If you could have your wish... I'd see Urinetown. Don't be put off by the title; it's great. I also really like Take Me Out, the only play (as opposed to musicals) on Broadway right now. It's exceptionally well written, and superbly performed, but then the subject matter, a homosexual professional baseball player, may not be your cup of tea. I love baseball, and liked the play, even though the writer got his baseball wrong. It's got lots and lots of nudity, which some find off-putting. But man, is that list depressing. Can you believe it, how irrelevant and touristy and corporate Broadway has become? I was just in New York, and of course, there's still stuff to see, but it's all off and off off. Elia Kazan just died, and of course looking at that string of plays that guy got to direct in the fifties is remarkable. But geez, Streetcar AND Death of a Salesman AND Sweet Bird of Youth and fifty other plays just as important. And there was a time when Broadway WAS important, when it was culturally vital, when the most pressing concerns of mainstream American culture were dramatized on a regular basis. Not any more, alas. So, really, my answer to your if you could have your wish question is, don't bother. New York's a great town and I love it, but don't bother. Go to London instead. Theatre still matters there. Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:51:31 -0600 From: "Jonathan Neville" Subject: Re: [AML] Negative Themes and Artistic Value I would say that the scriptures are more than laced with dark elements. When the people were living harmoniously, a few pages in 4 Nephi covered hundreds of years. Most of the scriptures, like most literature, documents the struggles within human nature. Since human improvement is the conquest of determination over inclination, the struggle appeals to us. It catches our attention and holds it, as long as the tension endures. We wouldn't be reading about Paul if everyone had simply accepted what he preached. The fascinating thing is how he continually fought against the Greeks, Jews--even his fellow apostles--to establish the gospel in the lives of the people he met. In my view, this is one of the weaknesses of LDS literature (especially the DB approved material). Characters confront "trials and tribulations" but there is not much at stake, because we know up front that all will end well. In contrast, the scriptures end in tragedy, with apostles and prophets murdered, nations falling into disbelief, doctrines corrupted, etc. So it seems to me that great literature boils down to telling the reader, "don't worry, no matter what happens, if you remain true and faithful to your convictions it will ultimately turn out okay." Sort of restating D&C 122:8, which is the single verse that pretty summarizes all of mortality. The more a character struggles with reality, and the deeper the conflict, the more appealing (and inspiring) the story can be. I don't understand why the objective should be to create art that is "positive in nature and presentation," except to suggest that what appears to be a tragedy in mortal perspectives will ultimately (in the eternal world) produce perfected beings. [Jonathan Neville] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:00:08 -1000 From: Randall Larsen Subject: Re: [AML] Movie Moratorium D. Michael Martindale > I don't buy that one. There are a bunch of good ideas around that=20 > don't=3D20 get produced. Hollwood doesn't want good ideas. It wants=20 > bankable ideas. > > Now if you're talking about television, I might agree. Few good=20 > ideas=3D20 floating around there. Yes, there might be a few good ideas that never make it to the top of the slushpile. New filmakers (or new scriptwriters) can self-produce if they have an idea that doesn't require a big budget. Unless someone has an idea for a sequel to a succesful movie, its usually not the ideas that are bankable but the stars, the writer, or the director. About 1982 I got a distribution guarantee from Roger Corman to do Jekyll and Hyde in 3D. He even agreed to put up half the budget. That is probably the exception that proves the rule against "bankable ideas." Corman thought Jekyll and Hyde was a proven classic that could always make money if done low budget with a clever twist. I wasn't able to raise my half of the money so our group lost out on that one. But it was the idea in that case that was bankable. I think U.S. television does ocassionally present some good scripts. There are some good mini-series, tv movies, and documentaries. The English make some great television (and far too many documentaries). While I lived in England I saw some wonderful television. Rosemont's production of Ivanhoe was probably my favorite. kind regards, Randall Larsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:04:16 -0600 From: "Jongiorgi Enos" Subject: Re: [AML] Work & Glory Movie or "Do The Math" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Adams" > > But--just curious--how do you get Jackman on a budget of $4.5 mil?=20 > Doesn't he pull in more than that per picture? You make the film for $3.5 and give him a mil. If he's used to getting less, you have to wow him with the script. That's how RD got Val's committment letter. Val's used to making more than $1 mill, but even with a $7 mill budget for Prophet, there is no way he could be offred more. His agents wanted him to get $3 mill, but RD said no can do. Val read the script, became facinated by the character, and said, okay, if you can get me $1 mill, I'll do it... even though my agents don't want me too. Could you make "Work and the Glory" for $3.5 mill? I could. But I wouldn't be able to buy a house when I was done. I'd take $50,000, get all the other above the line to do the same, and make the film. The only way you can possibly spend $7.4 on a film like WAG is to pay yourself huge salaries...unless of course, they have budgeted to have two or three stars in that mix, attempting to do what I have suggested. But seriously, WAG is not that big a deal. Period peice, sure, but it's actually a fairly intimate, small story. I have absolutely no comprehension why it should cost so much. Same with TOSOH. These are good filmmakers, but they come form the school that they should personally inrich themselves BEFORE the film is made, rather than put their risk in with the investors and make thier serious money AFTER the film is made... or not. Are they are so afraid that the film won't make money that they have to pay themselves a fortune up front and pad the budget with high salaries? Do they think that "Hollywood" ALWAYS pays high salaries and that's just the way it is? High salaries are based on merit. Sometimes they are wrong even then, but those who truly command high salaries in Hollywood have PROVEN that they deserve it. These filmmakers have not proven that. I have not proven that. I would be embarassed to take more than DGA scale to direct a film. I have no track record. I know what I can do, but nobody else does. Truthfully, not even I really know. I would love to see the top-sheet of the budget for WAG. I bet I know what it says. I bet you the above the line (that is the part that pays for cast, producers, director, script) is fully 50% of the entire negative cost (the below the line, or the part that pays for everything else). Perhaps I'm wrong. I hope so. If so, then my statement that I could make WAG for 3.5 is not such a big claim. THEY are making WAG for 3.5. The rest of the budget is going to line a very few people's pockets at the top. Mayby I'm wrong. Maybe they plan on shooting on 70mm and using a 20:1 ratio. Maybe they will actually be filming in Japan instead of Upper Canada Villiage. Maybe they will have an A-list star. Maybe they will digitally create the character of Joseph Smith entirely in a computer, a la Gollum, just so he'll look EXACTLY RIGHT. Otherwise, I can't figure it out how you spend $7.4 on a story like that. It's just not that big a movie. Would I LIKE to be able to afford a house after a single film. Yes. I'd love it. But not until I deserve it. Just my opinion. Jongiorgi Enos - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #187 ******************************