From: "C Davis" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 01 Feb 1998 12:33:57 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2F0D.AAFE1320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is definitely listed in the inventory of items in Undaunted Courage. = Unfortunately, I( don't have the book anymore so I can't give you a page = number. I do remember that Lewis used it to impress some Natives along = the route. -Craig -----Original Message----- From: JON P TOWNS To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:23 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery =20 =20 Well Rick I am a student of the Corp of Discovery also and have = several books on the subject but I have a memory problem. Where!!! I = have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 = cal) but where I read it I don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it = and tell the list because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone = on the list can remember. Later Jon Towns=20 =20 ---------- : From: Rick Williams : To: hist_text@xmission.com; hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery : Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:58 PM :=20 : Hail the list! :=20 : I've had an interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery = : used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a = : non-military member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called=20 : Kentucky "nine." :=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2F0D.AAFE1320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It is definitely listed in the = inventory of=20 items in Undaunted Courage. Unfortunately, I( don't have the book = anymore=20 so I can't give you a page number. I do remember that Lewis used = it to=20 impress some Natives along the route.

-Craig

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Other guns of the Corp of Discovery

Well Rick I am a = student of the=20 Corp of Discovery also and have several books on the subject but I = have a=20 memory problem. Where!!! I have read and know for a fact = that=20 the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I = don't=20 remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list = because it=20 will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list can = remember.=20 Later Jon Towns

----------
: From: Rick Williams = <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu>
:=20 To: hist_text@xmission.com;=20 hist_text@xmission.com
:=20 Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery
: Date: = Friday,=20 January 30, 1998 2:58 PM
:
: Hail the list!
:
: I've = had an=20 interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery
: used = beside the=20 pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a
: = non-military=20 member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called
: = Kentucky=20 "nine."
:=20

= ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2F0D.AAFE1320-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: andersons@mcn.net (Norman Anderson) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 01 Feb 1998 13:53:17 +0000 Rick, I, too, am working on a character for Lewis and Clark. It seems that concrete information on their weapons is tough to find. However, there is a terrific Lewis and Clark web site at http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index.html compiled by Jay Rasmussen. In one of is sub directories is a section on the firearms of the expedition. That site is http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index.html. That site discusses what we know and gives references in Gary Moulton's Journals and in the work of Carl Russell (Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men). Regarding the Air Rifle, it still exists apparently and is in a museum at Virginia Military Institute. The web site which provides a photo is http://www.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html It is .36 caliber and could fire about 7 shots once it was pumped up. It may have been used to impress the Native Americans along the route, but in an accidental discharge, it nearly killed a woman on what can be considered the very first day of Lewis's journey (Moulton, vol. 2, page 65). >From what reading and research I've been able to do, the Harper's Ferry 1803 would be a good choice but other weapons were definitely in use. Clark reports shooting an Elk 4 times with no success because of his rifles small size. Charboneau carried an "elegant fusil", and from the number of birds the expedition killed, they must have had a number of smooth-bore weapons. Good luck in your research; what you offered in you posting was informative and impressive. Norman Anderson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 01 Feb 1998 19:58:12 EST In a message dated 98-01-31 14:23:32 EST, you write: << know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) >> I could be wrong on this, but I believe that there was only one on the trip and that it was a personal possesion of Lewis. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 01 Feb 1998 19:46:46 -0800 (PST) On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Rick Williams wrote: > Here's my problem--It is well documented that Lewis had delivered 15 > "short" rifles from the arsenal along with slings, cartouche boxes > etc; I can even find a receipt and payment for fifteen shooting bags > and powder horns, but I cannot find any documentation describing the > "other" rifles taken or their source. Rick >From the following book... Ross, A., (1956). The Fur Traders of the Far West. University of Oklahoma Press. He has a chapter on the weapons and illustrations of the following rifles that accompanied the Lewis and Clark Expedition. U.S. flintlock musket, 1795 "Elegant fusil" (P. Bond, London, 1776-1800) U.S. flintlock "Kentucky" rifle, contract of the 1790's U.S. flintlock rifle, 1803 Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois Date: 01 Feb 1998 22:13:07 -0700 Longtrail, I read the article some time ago and enjoyed it very much. It stimulated quite a bit of thinking. I'm not sure if it's possible to interpret another culture except through our own cultural values and beliefs, but interpreting the accounts of the Iroquois in the western fur trade through the culture of a Victorian European and then again through our present culture seem hazardous. The problem with trying to get a correct perspective on the Iroquois, Metis, and many other of the subcultures of the fur trade is that they didn't record their own journals so we can only see their history colored by the values and beliefs of another culture. The construct we envision of that period in history was captured and described in only one of the many languages spoken, and through only one of the many cultures whose people participated in the fur trade. That all leads me to wonder if they were indeed "naughty," or just not understood and interpreted as objectively as possible. Thanks, D.Tippets P.S. Is there a cold wind blowing down down the Mussleshell this February? -----Original Message----- >Did an article a while back called "Those Naughty West Coast Iroquois" >if'n yer interested it can be read at: > > http://www.lib.uconn.edu/NativeTech/essays/wiroquois.html > Longtrail > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 01 Feb 1998 21:08:38 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2F55.90FF0680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This discussion has been one of the better ones . I noticed that one page said the barrel was 31 cal and the other was 36 cal I don't know where I thought it was 50 cal but I warned everyone that I had no memory. I knew that 50 cal was built by someone. I like the Lewis and Clark site it's a good one. later Jon T ---------- : From: Norman Anderson : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery : Date: Sunday, February 01, 1998 5:53 AM : : Rick, : I, too, am working on a character for Lewis and Clark. It seems that : concrete information on their weapons is tough to find. However, there is : a terrific Lewis and Clark web site at : http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index.html : compiled by Jay Rasmussen. In one of is sub directories is a section on : the firearms of the expedition. That site is : http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index.html. : That site discusses what we know and gives references in Gary Moulton's : Journals and in the work of Carl Russell (Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the : Mountain Men). Regarding the Air Rifle, it still exists apparently and is : in a museum at Virginia Military Institute. The web site which provides a : photo is : http://www.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html : It is .36 caliber and could fire about 7 shots once it was pumped up. It : may have been used to impress the Native Americans along the route, but in : an accidental discharge, it nearly killed a woman on what can be considered : the very first day of Lewis's journey (Moulton, vol. 2, page 65). : : >From what reading and research I've been able to do, the Harper's Ferry : 1803 would be a good choice but other weapons were definitely in use. : Clark reports shooting an Elk 4 times with no success because of his rifles : small size. Charboneau carried an "elegant fusil", and from the number of : birds the expedition killed, they must have had a number of smooth-bore : weapons. : : Good luck in your research; what you offered in you posting was informative : and impressive. : : Norman Anderson ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2F55.90FF0680 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This discussion has been one of the = better ones . I noticed that one page said the barrel was 31 cal = and the other was 36 cal I don't know where I thought it was 50 cal but = I warned everyone that I had no memory. I knew that 50 cal was = built by someone. I like the Lewis and Clark site it's a good one. =   later Jon T
----------
: From: Norman Anderson = <andersons@mcn.net>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp = of Discovery
: Date: Sunday, February 01, 1998 5:53 AM
:
: = Rick,
: I, too, am working on a character for Lewis and Clark. = It seems that
: concrete information on their weapons is tough = to find. However, there is
: a terrific Lewis and Clark = web site at
:         http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index= .html
: compiled by Jay Rasmussen. = In one of is sub directories is a section on
: the firearms of = the expedition. That site is
: =         http://www.vpds.wsu.edu/lcexpedition/resources/index= .html.
: That site discusses what we = know and gives references in Gary Moulton's
: Journals and in the = work of Carl Russell (Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the
: Mountain = Men). Regarding the Air Rifle, it still exists apparently and = is
: in a museum at Virginia Military Institute. The web site = which provides a
: photo is
: =         http://www.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html
: It is .36 caliber and could fire about 7 shots = once it was pumped up. It
: may have been used to impress the = Native Americans along the route, but in
: an accidental discharge, = it nearly killed a woman on what can be considered
: the very first = day of Lewis's journey (Moulton, vol. 2, page 65).
:
: >From = what reading and research I've been able to do, the Harper's Ferry
: = 1803 would be a good choice but other weapons were definitely in = use.
: Clark reports shooting an Elk 4 times with no success because = of his rifles
: small size. Charboneau carried an "elegant = fusil", and from the number of
: birds the expedition killed, = they must have had a number of smooth-bore
: weapons.
:
: Good = luck in your research; what you offered in you posting was = informative
: and impressive.
:
: Norman Anderson

------=_NextPart_000_01BD2F55.90FF0680-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mohawks/Hendrick Date: 02 Feb 1998 08:47:33 EST In a message dated 98-01-27 01:23:14 EST,Ted Hart wrote that the address for the museum (5 Nations) was: << Ganondagon State Historical Site 1488 Victor-Holcomb Rd Victor, NY 14564 >> The center has expanded and has a new address it is: 7000 County Road 41, Victor NY 14564. Phone # 716-924-5848, Fax # 716-742-1732. The center is in the process of building/reconstructing a Long House on the property which I believe will be dedicated this coming summer. Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: parched corn Date: 02 Feb 1998 08:21:11 -0600 Ok ye old corn parchers, what kind of corn do you parch? Do you dry sweet corn, use field corn, or grow the old kind of corn. Thanks much, Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois Date: 02 Feb 1998 07:24:08 -0700 -----Original Message----- >Hi again, I just tried accessing my article "Those Naughty West Coast >Iroquois at the site I mentioned yesterday and couldn't get it. >So I suggest you go to the main site > > http://www.lib.uconn.edu/NativeTech/NativeTech.html >Once there, choose "Essays and Articles". You should not have a problem >with doing it that way. Sorry for the mistake. Longtrail > >Thanks, I thoroughly explored the site a couple of months ago. Has anything new been added of late? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 02 Feb 1998 07:52:42 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BD2FAF.8ABD83A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: JON P TOWNS To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:06 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous =20 =20 Wasn't there only 19 deserters? =20 =20 Jon, Dean, Longtrail, et al: =20 I'm not sure where this going. I've been eagerly awaiting the = chance to read the Master's Thesis being written on the Iroquois role = rather than launch into my own research project. Until then, what I'm = passing on is just hearsay from the Fur Trade Symposium in Pinedale. =20 I believe what will be documented is that not just many of the = Northwest Company engagees hire out of Montreal were Northeastern = Indians or mixed bloods, but also many of the trappers hired out of St. = Louis were also French-speaking Indians and mixed bloods originally from = the Northeast. Last evening I explored some of the Metis geneology web = sites and found evidence of family connection to both the St. Louis and = New Orleans areas. In fact, it appears some think of the Cajuns as = southern Metis. As late as 1816, St. Louis was still considered by many = to be a French town with strong economic connections to Lower Canada. =20 Etieane Provoust's pre-1825 history is a good example of this = migration pattern for northeastern men seeking their fortunes and = adventure. I haven't seen any evidence that he was Metis, but his = hometown of Chambly is in the area where many of the Metis engagees of = the NWC came from. =20 On one of the Metis geneology sites one authority said that between = 1800 and 1850 all the Indians in the area had their identities recorded = with anglo names so ancesteries are fairly easy to trace back that far, = but not easy to trace beyond 1800. When you look at these Metis web = sites you see that there is tremendous effort being put into tracing = Metis bloodlines, apparently because documenting Indian ancestary in = Canada makes Metis eligable for native claims on land. =20 I'd bet a dram at Western Nationals that when the dust settles, = we'll find that many of the trappers hire in St. Louis had blood ties to = many of the men hired by the NWC in Montreal. ---------- : From: Dean Rudy : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous : Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:04 AM :=20 : > I believe they have documented that almost half the trappers at = the 1824 : > rendezvous were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that a lot of = those were the : > trappers who defected from Peter Skene Ogden's Brigade. Long = before then the : > Northwest Company employed Iroquois as "hunters."=20 :=20 :=20 : I assume you mean the 1825 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical = about 50% : Iroquois, would be interested to see the research. The majority = of the : men who : defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are named in = Kittson's : Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 percent. =20 : Ashley wrote: : "On the 1st day of july, all the men in my employ or with : whom I had any concern in the country, together with twenty-nine, = who had : recently withdrawn from the Hudson Bay company, making in all 120 = men, : were assembled in two camps near each other about 20 miles distant : from the place appointed by me as a general rendezvous" :=20 : Many men are named in Ashley's accounts. One could do some = geneology to : determine which were Iroquois, but they don't have obvious = Iroquois names : (except for the Ogden bunch). I think it would be difficult to = determine. :=20 :=20 : >=20 : > The following offer some evidence that Black Harris may have = been one whose : > roots went back to Iroquois along the St. Lawerence: Alfred = Jacob Miller : > depicted him as very dark complected and with sparse facial = hair. Miller : > also recorded him wearing a hunting-hood hat of the type that = has it's : > origens among the Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common = Iroquois : > name. He is closely associated with many of the French-named = trappers. : >=20 : =20 : There's a biography of Harris in Hafen's Mountain Men series: : Harris, Moses "Black", by Jerome Peltier, vol IV pg. 103-117 : I haven't had a chance to look it up, but I bet that will shed = some light. :=20 : -Dean =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BD2FAF.8ABD83A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Monday, January 26, 1998 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous

Wasn't there only 19=20 deserters?

Jon, Dean, Longtrail, = et=20 al:

I'm not sure where = this=20 going. I've been eagerly awaiting the chance to read the = Master's=20 Thesis being written on the Iroquois role rather than launch into my = own=20 research project. Until then, what I'm passing on is just = hearsay from=20 the Fur Trade Symposium in Pinedale.

I believe what will = be documented=20 is that not just many of the Northwest Company engagees hire out of = Montreal=20 were Northeastern Indians or mixed bloods, but also many of the = trappers=20 hired out of St. Louis were also French-speaking Indians and mixed = bloods=20 originally from the Northeast. Last evening I explored some of = the=20 Metis geneology web sites and found evidence of family connection to = both=20 the St. Louis and New Orleans areas. In fact, it appears some = think of=20 the Cajuns as southern Metis. As late as 1816, St. Louis was still=20 considered by many to be a French town with strong economic = connections to=20 Lower Canada.

Etieane=20 Provoust's pre-1825 history is a good example of this migration = pattern for=20 northeastern men seeking their fortunes and adventure. I = haven't seen=20 any evidence that he was Metis, but his hometown of Chambly is in = the area=20 where many of the Metis engagees of the NWC came from.

On one of the Metis = geneology sites=20 one authority said that between 1800 and 1850 all the Indians in the = area=20 had their identities recorded with anglo names so ancesteries are = fairly=20 easy to trace back that far, but not easy to trace beyond = 1800. When=20 you look at these Metis web sites you see that there is tremendous = effort=20 being put into tracing Metis bloodlines, apparently because = documenting=20 Indian ancestary in Canada makes Metis eligable for native claims on = land.

I'd bet a dram at = Western Nationals=20 that when the dust settles, we'll find that many of the trappers = hire in St.=20 Louis had blood ties to many of the men hired by the NWC in=20 Montreal.
----------
: From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
: Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 = rendezvous
:=20 Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:04 AM
:
: > I believe = they have=20 documented that almost half the trappers at the 1824
: > = rendezvous=20 were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that a lot of those were = the
:=20 > trappers who defected from Peter Skene Ogden's Brigade. Long = before=20 then the
: > Northwest Company employed Iroquois as=20 "hunters."
:
:
: I assume you mean the 1825=20 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical about 50%
: Iroquois, = would be=20 interested to see the research. The majority of the
: men = who
:=20 defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are named in = Kittson's
:=20 Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 percent.
: = Ashley=20 wrote:
: "On the 1st day of july, all the men in my employ = or=20 with
: whom I had any concern in the country, together with = twenty-nine,=20 who had
: recently withdrawn from the Hudson Bay company, making = in all=20 120 men,
: were assembled in two camps near each other about 20 = miles=20 distant
: from the place appointed by me as a general=20 rendezvous"
:
: Many men are named in Ashley's accounts. = One could do some geneology to
: determine which were = Iroquois, but=20 they don't have obvious Iroquois names
: (except for the Ogden = bunch).=20 I think it would be difficult to determine.
:
:
: = >=20
: > The following offer some evidence that Black Harris may = have been=20 one whose
: > roots went back to Iroquois along the St. = Lawerence:=20 Alfred Jacob Miller
: > depicted him as very dark = complected and=20 with sparse facial hair. Miller
: > also recorded him = wearing a=20 hunting-hood hat of the type that has it's
: > origens among = the=20 Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common Iroquois
: = > name.=20 He is closely associated with many of the French-named = trappers.
:=20 >
:
: There's a biography of Harris in Hafen's = Mountain Men=20 series:
: Harris, Moses "Black", by Jerome Peltier, vol = IV pg.=20 103-117
: I haven't had a chance to look it up, but I bet that = will shed=20 some light.
:
:=20 -Dean

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BD2FAF.8ABD83A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 02 Feb 1998 08:00:15 -0700 Dean, Is Kittson's journal on the website? Dave P.S. Made an Indian efigy hood yesterday; my wife laughed hysterically and said it is the stranges thing I've ever made. She calls it my batman hat. I'm starting to see why they fell out of fashion. The experimental archeology business is full of risks -- ridicule being one of them. -----Original Message----- >At 07:00 PM 1/26/98 -0800, Jon Towns wrote: >>>>> > > > Wasn't there only 19 deserters? > > ---------- > > > >Well, good question. Gen Ashley himself said there were 29, so I won't argue with him. But could be he was referring to all the ex-HBC men, and not just those who deserted on the Weber that spring. HBC clerk William Kittson kept a detailed journal, as did Ogden. (http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/kitjrl.html) > >Kittson names the following individuals as deserting between May 24 - 30, 1825. The edition of his journal I have stops on June 1; there could have been more desertions later in the season. > >The names with an asterik were probably Iroquois. > >Alexander Carson >Charles Duford >Martin Miaquin* >Pierre Tevaiiitagon* >Jaques Osteaceroko* >Ignace Deohdiouwassere* >Ignace Hatchiorauquasha (or Grey)* >Laurent Karahouton* >Baptise Sawenrego* >Lazard Kayenquaretcha* >Joseph Perreault >Louis Kanota >Montour >Antoine Clement >Annance >Prudhomme >Sansfacon* >Theery Goddin >J. Bte. Gervais >Fras. Sasanare* >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com >Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: parched corn Date: 02 Feb 1998 10:48:35 -0500 Jim, Any dried corn will do. Dried white flint corn is probably the most authentic, although yellow is right too. I've done field corn which is actually probably closer to 18th century corn than any other we have today. All work well. Remember to parch in a dry skillet. Grease will make the corn go bad alot quicker. Heat a skillet to medium heat and roast until the kernal has turned a golden to dark brown. It will make a sound like popcorn while parching. Make sure not to burn it. It is ready when it will crush to a coarse powder. I like to mix a little raw sugar and pounded jerky with mine for the perfect trail food. Good luck. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jolighthouse@webtv.net (jo tiger) Subject: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 02 Feb 1998 11:17:19 -0600 Can any of you mt. men tell me how to tan a deer hide leaving the hair ON? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 02 Feb 1998 11:41:27 -0500 Dave wrote: P.S. Made an Indian efigy hood yesterday; my wife laughed hysterically and said it is the stranges thing I've ever made. She calls it my batman hat. I'm starting to see why they fell out of fashion. The experimental archeology business is full of risks -- ridicule being one of them. Dave, What fell out of fashion, the hats or wives? Mine laughed histerically at my first attempt at centerseam mocs almost 20 winters ago. Called them my "Peter Pan" shoes. Almost traded her for a gun! Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) Subject: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 02 Feb 1998 14:13:39 -0600 Jo Tiger asked if anyone could tell how to tan a deer hide with the hair on. The question I have is why would anyone want a deer hide tanned with hair on? The answer is the same as with the hair off, just omit the de-hair step. Tim Austin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Mohawks/Hendrick Date: 02 Feb 1998 19:46:06 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of CTOAKES@aol.com > Sent: Monday, February 02, 1998 8:48 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mohawks/Hendrick > > > In a message dated 98-01-27 01:23:14 EST,Ted Hart wrote that the address for > the museum (5 Nations) was: > > << > Ganondagon State Historical Site > 1488 Victor-Holcomb Rd > Victor, NY 14564 >> > > The center has expanded and has a new address it is: 7000 County Road 41, > Victor NY 14564. Phone # 716-924-5848, Fax # 716-742-1732. > > The center is in the process of building/reconstructing a Long House on the > property which I believe will be dedicated this coming summer. THANKS for the info! Regards, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 02 Feb 1998 17:39:59 -0600 (CST) >Dave wrote: > >P.S. Made an Indian efigy hood yesterday; my wife laughed hysterically and >said it is the stranges thing I've ever made. She calls it my batman hat. >I'm starting to see why they fell out of fashion. The experimental >archeology business is full of risks -- ridicule being one of them. > > >Dave, >What fell out of fashion, the hats or wives? Mine laughed >histerically at my first attempt at centerseam mocs almost 20 winters >ago. Called them my "Peter Pan" shoes. Almost traded her for a gun! > Must be something about hats. I wear my red wool Toque in the winter, and people call me "Santa." It was really bad in December. Adding the Cross of Lorraine didn't help much. I can't remember how many times I uttered the words "...French-Canadian fur trappers." At least a few more people have been enlightened. Thankfully, two of our students already knew (both from Quebec). Another person called it a tobbagan hat. Close enough I guess. Maybe I should have ordered the green one. <:-) Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 02 Feb 1998 16:26:50 -0800 > The answer is the same as with the hair off, just omit the de-hair step. > > Tim Austin Have you done it? Dale Nelson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Forrest Smouse Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 02 Feb 1998 18:07:18 +0000 --------------8528499A2AC6E510D719DCB7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jo tiger wrote: > Can any of you mt. men tell me how to tan a deer hide leaving the hair > ON? I have heard several persons asking this same and I have always wondered why anyone would want a deer hide with the hair on. Many years ago I was give a moose hide that was tanned hair on and the tanning was an excellent peace of work. The problem is no matter what I did or where I put it, the hair won't stay in and gets all over everything. I know several people who have deer hides with the hair on and they have the same problem. If you still want it hair on the tanning process is no different than that of tanning without the hair. You just wash the oils out of the hair and don't remove the hair. Forrest Smouse Uintah Basin Applied Technology Center Smouse Geneology --------------8528499A2AC6E510D719DCB7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

jo tiger wrote:

Can any of you mt. men tell me how to tan a deer hide leaving the hair
ON?

I have heard several persons asking this same and I have always wondered why anyone would want a deer hide with the hair on. Many years ago I was give a moose hide that was tanned hair on and the tanning was an excellent peace of work. The problem is no matter what I did or where I put it, the hair won't stay in and gets all over everything. I know several people who have deer hides with the hair on and they have the same problem. If you still want it hair on the tanning process is no different than that of tanning without the hair. You just wash the oils out of the hair and don't remove the hair.

Forrest Smouse
Uintah Basin Applied Technology Center

Smouse Geneology --------------8528499A2AC6E510D719DCB7-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jolighthouse@webtv.net (jo tiger) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 02 Feb 1998 20:42:17 -0600 Thanks for the info. Why hair on? Well, my deer hunting friend thought it would make a pretty throw rug or wall tapestry if it had the hair. I donno. Kinda like why you leave the "hair" on a fur coat, maybe? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barry Powell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: parched corn Date: 02 Feb 1998 22:51:08 -0500 At 08:21 AM 2/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >Ok ye old corn parchers, what kind of corn do you parch? Do you dry >sweet corn, use field corn, or grow the old kind of corn. > >Thanks much, > >Jim > > I always used dry sweet corn but field corn will work if the sugar content is high enough. BP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barry Powell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 02 Feb 1998 23:00:56 -0500 At 11:17 AM 2/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >Can any of you mt. men tell me how to tan a deer hide leaving the hair >ON? > > I use 10 gallons of water, 10 lbs. of salt, and 2 lbs. of alum. Mix well in a tank of some sort. Flesh the hide and submerse in the mixture. Turn it and stir it twice a day for 4 or 5 days. Remove from solution and dry, then rub warm vegetable oil into the skin side and work it around a post to soften it. I have one that I did 15 years ago and the hair is still on tight. We use ours as a rug or blanket when in camp. BP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 02 Feb 1998 20:25:29 -0800 (PST) Rick, A good resource for the guns carried by the Corps of Discovery is listed in Carl P. Russell's book, "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" on pages 37-43 (Rifles with Lewis and Clark), pages 43 & 44 (Pistols) and pages 44 & 45 (Meriwether Lewis's Air Gun.) Hope this helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ >: From: Rick Williams >: To: hist_text@xmission.com; hist_text@xmission.com >: Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery >: Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:58 PM >: >: Hail the list! >: >: I've had an interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery >: used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a >: non-military member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called >: Kentucky "nine." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: smoothbore fix Date: 03 Feb 1998 05:52:33 GMT On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:25:44 -0500, you wrote: >Hello the list, > >Well, found out the trouble with my smoothbore not suckin down those=20 >.600 ball. Considering some of the shotgun/smoothbore topics lately,=20 >some of you are going to get mad at me. I took it back up to Fort=20 >Chambers Gun Shop where I got it and we checked it out. Well, it=20 >turns out it is jug choked! No wonder it was shooting shot so well. >Anyhow, good thing I didn't put a ball thru it. Now here comes the=20 >part that may make some of you mad, I left it to have the jug=20 >choke reamed out. My original purpose was to have something I could=20 >shoot either shot or ball, so I'm having this done. Man, she did=20 >shoot a great pattern though. I hope I can get a decent one=20 >afterwards. We couldn't even get a .570 ball down very easily until=20 >about an inch and a half down the bore and then it just fell in. I'm=20 >afraid the choke would act as an obstruction, so I thought it best to=20 >get it reamed. >That's the scoop. I'm now waiting not so patiently to get it again! Scott, I may have missed several messages from this point on. This is the last message I saw. From my reading (and I stress reading, no personal experience here) my understanding is that a jug-choked bore has essentially no effect on patched ball accuracy once the barrel is properly adjusted. I assume adjustment means judicious filing/relieving of the bore to make the patched ball/shot load fly in the proper direction. Would putting more taper on the jug choke alleviate the flyers found in the patched round ball, or does the choke really need to be totally removed? I don't have one of these smooth-bore types, but would like to know the answers to my questions just in case I hit the lottery or something. A smoothbore or some sort (actually a Bess probably-someone as bad a shot as me needs all the lead he can get) is next on my "needs" list. Much obliged for any info you care to share. Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Killingsworth Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 02 Feb 1998 23:33:44 -0800 WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) wrote: > > Jo Tiger asked if anyone could tell how to tan a deer hide with the hair > on. > > The question I have is why would anyone want a deer hide tanned with > hair on? > > The answer is the same as with the hair off, just omit the de-hair step. > > Tim Austin There can be some really cool coats and such made using hair on leather. There are several uses for hair on. Soaring Eagle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 02 Feb 1998 22:22:31 -0800 JON P TOWNS wrote: >I have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles Greetings Jon, Many moons ago I paid a visit to Ft. Clatsap a few miles west of Astoria, Ore. on the northern oregon coast, and while there I also toured their museum. They had on display (replica?) air guns used by Lewis & Clark that used a spheariod air tank that attached about where a magizene would go on a modern rifle. Very interesting. To all who are interested, The 21st Annual Muzzle Loading Arms & Pioneer Crafts Show put on by the Cascade Mtn. Men will be held on March 7 & 8 1998 at the King County Fair Grounds in Enumclaw, Wa.. This is a fun little event with at least 100 tables of merchants, organizations, displays, demos and such spanning F&I to cowboy action groups. Hours are 9am to 5pm. Admission is $3.00, 12 and under are free. Info # is 206-763-1698 Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: parched corn Date: 03 Feb 1998 02:12:20 EST In a message dated 98-02-02 10:44:50 EST, you write: << Do you dry sweet corn, use field corn, Yes < or grow the old kind of corn. >> Would try it if I had seed. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Ft. Frederick Rifle Raffle Date: 03 Feb 1998 10:43:08 -0500 Hello List(s) For those of you who bought tickets for the rifle raffle. Last night's number was 947 and no ticket was sold for that number. Therefore, Maryland's Tuesday evening pick 3 number will be used and so on until we get a winner. So thanks to all who bought tickets and good luck. I'll report when we get a winner. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kat Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 03 Feb 1998 11:07:31 -0500 no, then you would have been an elf. Could you please post your source for the hat? Kat begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@00`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`2 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````5P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&AI'1 ;&ES=',N>&UI``(P M`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````'0```&AI'1 ;&ES=',N>&UIG9O=7,`I@X!!8 #``X```#.!P(` M`P`+``<`'P`"``T!`2" `P`.````S@<"``,`"P`'``,``@#Q``$)@ $`(0`` M`#(Y-S=#0C9!03@S,$)$,3$X,3DX-C(T,30V-C-".3 V`/0&`0.0!@`X`@`` M$P````L`(P```````P`F```````+`"D```````,`+@```````P`V``````! M`#D`8,D7U;TPO0$>`' ``0```"P```!213H@371-86XM3&ES=#H@27)O<75O M:7,@870@,3@R-2!R96YD97IV;W5S``(!<0`!````%@````&],+W5%PD6#62< MQ#%IE@H``!X`'@P!````!0```%--5% `````'@`?# $````/```` M:V%T0&IA;G)I>"YC;VT```,`!A!=6*CB`P`'$$4````>``@0`0```$8```!. M3RQ42$5.64]55T]53$1(059%0D5%3D%.14Q&0T]53$193U503$5!4T503U-4 M64]54E-/55)#149/4E1(14A!5#]+050````"`0D0`0```,@```#$````4 $` M`$Q:1G7TB*0Y_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S973N,@8`!L," M@S(#Q@<3`H.Z,Q,-?0J ",\)V3L5_W@R-34"@ J!#;$+8&[P9S$P,Q0@"PH4 M(@P!`F,`0"!N;RP@=))H"? @>0A@('<(8 AL9" 1P'9E(&(%">$@`Y%E;&8N M()X@"%$;X1MR"U!E81'PN1W0;W,%0!MQ!8$HJQ+TPO0$>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````R! ` end ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J2HEARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 03 Feb 1998 11:11:22 EST Need anyone be cautioned about wearing "fur on" coats in the woods during hunting or even non-huntng seasons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 03 Feb 1998 11:01:24 -0600 Yes, have plenty that I used for the floor of my tepee, did not finish them entirely since they were going to be a floor and did not need to be real soft on the flesh side. Because of the hair going all the time, it gets everywhere, and thus makes it not a good idea to tan a deer hide with hair on. The stuff gets everywhere, and the crazy thing is that they never look like they have less hair. Have 2 large ones from MN that have had for 15 years, still lots of hair comes off, but not sign of them getting to be less hair. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 03 Feb 1998 11:02:47 -0600 That is true, however, not deer. Have several things with hair on, not deer, bobcat, fox, coyote, skunk, bear to name some, but not deer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: smoothbore fix Date: 03 Feb 1998 14:42:08 -0500 Roy, >From what I understand, I was mistaken in calling what I have "jug choking". A jug choke is where the barrel is cylinder bore to a certain point towards the muzzle end of the barrel and then it flares out for a short distance before returning to cylinder bore for the remainder of the distance. My barrel goes from 20 gauge at the breech and tapers (is choked) down to 24 gauge at the muzzle. To shoot a ball thru a jug choke, from what I'm told, is no problem. To shoot one from a tapered or choked barrel like mine could be an invitation to disaster. A ball quite possibly could wedge itself on the way out and then the barrel would look like a banana peel (along with my head). The fix for my gun is a simple removing or reaming of the taper to make it a cylinder bore. Hope this clears it up. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim or Maryellen Majoros" Subject: MtMan-List: smallpox Date: 03 Feb 1998 16:24:40 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD30C0.3A5A6A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hello, We are doing a project on smallpox and we were wondering if you had = pictures on smallpox and the history of smallpox. PLEASE WRITE BACK = A.S.A.P!!! Our projects due the 19th of febuary 98' THANK = YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Email me back at cats@ncweb.com ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD30C0.3A5A6A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

hello,

We are doing a project on = smallpox and we=20 were wondering if you had pictures on smallpox and the history of = smallpox.=20 PLEASE WRITE BACK A.S.A.P!!! Our projects due the 19th of febuary 98' = THANK=20 YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

&nbs= p; = ; =20 Email me back at cats@ncweb.com

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD30C0.3A5A6A60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Flying Cloud Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 03 Feb 1998 13:57:16 -0800 tigrbo1 wrote: > > JON P TOWNS wrote: > >I have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles > > Greetings Jon, > > Many moons ago I paid a visit to Ft. Clatsap a few miles west of > Astoria, Ore. on the northern oregon coast, and while there I also > toured their museum. They had on display (replica?) air guns used by > Lewis & Clark that used a spheariod air tank that attached about where a > magizene would go on a modern rifle. Very interesting. >> > Best regards, > > Terry Smith Hi terry They now say the air that was on display at the fort is the same type as used by Lewis, the one he used had the air tank in the stock. -- Jim Ellison, http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 03 Feb 1998 16:27:15 -0600 (CST) >no, then you would have been an elf. Could you please post your source for >the hat? > >Kat My red toque (voyageur's hat) came from Jas. Townsend. 16.00 plus shipping as per the Spring 1998 catalog. ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: parched corn Date: 03 Feb 1998 17:59:15 -0600 At 01:12 AM 2/3/98 , NaugaMok@aol.com wrote: >< or grow the old kind of corn. >> > >Would try it if I had seed. >NM > Historic seeds for corn, beans, squash, melons and more; are available for free (if you send back fresh new seed from your crop) from: Agricultural Research U.S. Dept of Agriculture National Seed Storage Colo State University Fort Collins, CO John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 03 Feb 1998 17:03:49 -0800 WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) wrote: > > Have several things with hair on, not > deer, bobcat, fox, coyote, skunk, bear to name some Did you brain tan them, and if so how did you go about smoking them? When I do buckskin I force the smoke through the hide. I'm inclined to think that a smoke house only gives a surface smoke and is less than satisfactory. I won a green coyote hide as a blanket prize one time, and I alum tanned it, then made a hat. The alum drew water out of the air, and the inside of the hat would be wet, sometimes actuall dripping water, and I couldn't get it rinsed out good enough to stop it, so had to throw it away. Dale Nelson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HKUSP9410@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: parched corn Date: 03 Feb 1998 21:19:58 EST In a message dated 98-02-03 10:38:14 EST, you write: << Would try it if I had seed. NM >> Check an issue of the Mother Earth News. They have a seed exchange for people who want to keep the old types of fruits and vegetables alive and prospering. If you don't see what you want they give addresses to write to... Watch yer TopKnot Missouri Mule ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: parched corn Date: 03 Feb 1998 22:14:46 PST You can place the corn one kernel deep in a shallow pan and do your parching in a medium oven and wait for the popping sound. As you say, keep away from the grease. I have known folks that ground up Corn Nuts purchased from the snack counter, but these are plenty greasy. I have also used blue corn (which also turns brown when parched). I once traded a man about two pounds of crushed, parched blue corn (pinole) for a pewter "turtle" spoon worth about $15, and he thought he got the best of the bargain. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ---------- > > Jim, > > Any dried corn will do. Dried white flint corn is probably the most > authentic, although yellow is right too. I've done field corn which > is actually probably closer to 18th century corn than any other we > have today. All work well. Remember to parch in a dry skillet. Grease > will make the corn go bad alot quicker. Heat a skillet to medium heat > and roast until the kernal has turned a golden to dark brown. It will > make a sound like popcorn while parching. Make sure not to burn it. > It is ready when it will crush to a coarse powder. > I like to mix a little raw sugar and pounded jerky with mine for the > perfect trail food. Good luck. > > > Your most humble servant, > Scott Allen > Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick > Fairplay, MD > http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Air guns Date: 03 Feb 1998 18:04:30 -0800 Flying Cloud wrote: > Hi terry > They now say the air that was on display at the fort is the same type as used by Lewis, the one he used had the air tank in the stock. Greetings Jim, Perhaps Ft. Clatsop needs to tweek their displays a bit. Have you been there lately? what condition is the fort in these days? Great web site you've got. Do you get to any events up here in washington? Will you be at the M/L Arms & Pioneer Crafts Show in Enumclaw (king cnty Fair Grounds)in march? Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Nisqually Schedule Date: 03 Feb 1998 20:21:30 -0800 Greetings all, As a public service announcement (baltant plug) here is the list of events at Ft. Nisqually for 1998. Ft. Nisqually is a Hudson Bay Co. trade fort circa 1855. The fort is located at Point Defiance Zoo & Park in Tacoma, Washington. Hours are : Jan. 1 to Apr. 1 open Wednesday-Sunday 11am-4pm Apr. 2 to May 24 Open Wednesday-Sunday 11am-5pm May 25 to Sept. 7 Open daily 11am-6pm Sept. 8 to Dec. 31 Open Wednesday-Sunday 11am-4pm Admission: Adults $1.50 - Children .75 cents Admission charged weekends: Apr., May, Sept., Oct. Admission charged daily: June, July, Aug. All buildings open and staffed. For information: 5400 N. Pearl St.,#11 Tacoma, Wa. 98407 Ph# (253)-591-5339 -Events Are- Feb.21-LECTURE:"Murder at Butler Cove" by Dave Crooks at 2pm Mar.21-LECTURE:"Restoration of the Factor's House" at 2pm Apr.18-LIVING HISTORY DAY: 11am to 5pm Admission May 16-QUEEN VICTORIA'S BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION: 11am to 5pm Admission Jun.27-LECTURE:"Wilkes' Expedition" by Clint Cannon 2pm Free with fort admission Jul.24-LECTURE:"Peter Skene Ogden" by Jerry Ramsey 7pm Aug.8&9-BRIGADE ENCAMPMENT: 11am to 5pm Admission Sep.19-LIVING HISTORY DAY: 11am to 5pm Admission Oct.2&3-CANDLELIGHT TOUR: (Reservations required. Tickets go on sale September 1) 7pm to 11pm Oct.23&24-STORYTELLING:"Bonfires, Beaver Pelts & Bogeymen" 7pm Admission Nov.14-LIVING HISTORY DAY: 11am to 5pm Admission Dec.5-NINETEENTH CENTURY CHRISTMAS:1pm to 4pm Admission Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: parched corn Date: 03 Feb 1998 21:32:37 EST Maybe you could check out the Heirloom Hertiage...I believe that's what they're called. They deal primarily with antique vegetables, fruits, and crops that are rare. You could try the Cherokee corn or the Blue Corn which tortillas are made from...or whatnot. Wouldn't be able to help you on the address though. Still am trying to locate the Mohawk address. Forgot to explain that when you inquire of the seeds you are expected to mail back the same amount that you got and keep the rest so that way the seeds can go to some one else. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 04 Feb 1998 13:12:14 EST Well, the door flap on my Lodge is deer hide with the hair on. Stands to reason it would do a better job of holding in the heat and holding out the cold with the hair on. Haven't had any problem with the hair coming out all over everything either. Do have a Moose "Cape" with the hair on and I do experience the same problem as Forrest on this one, leaves hair everywhere. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Flying Cloud Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Air guns Date: 04 Feb 1998 10:33:54 -0800 tigrbo1 wrote: > > Flying Cloud wrote: > > > Hi terry > > They now say the air that was on display at the fort is the same type as used by Lewis, the one he used had the air tank in the stock. > > Greetings Jim, > > Perhaps Ft. Clatsop needs to tweek their displays a bit. Have you been > there lately? what condition is the fort in these days? Great web site > you've got. Do you get to any events up here in washington? Will you be > at the M/L Arms & Pioneer Crafts Show in Enumclaw (king cnty Fair > Grounds)in march? > > Best regards, > > Terry Smith Yes, Donna and I spent the day at the fort this last summer, the air gun is no longer on display, we where able to pick several books on Clark for our great nephews who are direct decendents of Clark. -- Jim Ellison, http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Air guns Date: 04 Feb 1998 07:29:06 -0800 > > They now say the air that was on display at the fort is the same type as used by Lewis, the one he used had the air tank in the stock. It has been a while since I read about the air rifle but as I recall it had a spherical air tank forward of the trigger guard area. After so many shots it had to be unscrewed and attached to a hand pump to recharged. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides Date: 04 Feb 1998 14:16:49 -0600 (CST) >Jo Tiger asked if anyone could tell how to tan a deer hide with the hair >on. > >The question I have is why would anyone want a deer hide tanned with >hair on? Well, for one thing they make nice bedding. In camp I sleep on 7 or 8 hides, spread out in my tent, that I've processed with the hair on. I lay them on the bare ground, hair side up. With the hides below me, my wool blankets and buffalo coat above, and a wool hat, I keep pretty toasty on the coldest nights. The hollow hide hairs keep cold away while the thickness of the skin keeps moisture off. Remember, with the hair on, the epidermis on the hair side adds an extra layer of water resistance, and the hairs give you the dead air space for insulation. I have never felt cold or moisture through a deer hide that has the hair intact. They're also nice to sit on when there's nothing but wet or snowy ground, and it's always a nice neighborly way to share when you have company over. There are a thousand uses for hair-on hides. Sweet dreams, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Flying Cloud Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Air guns Date: 04 Feb 1998 13:55:10 -0800 Dennis Fisher wrote: > > > > They now say the air that was on display at the fort is the same type as used by Lewis, the one he used had the air tank in the stock. > > It has been a while since I read about the air rifle but as I recall it > had a spherical air tank forward of the trigger guard area. After so > many shots it had to be unscrewed and attached to a hand pump to > recharged. > > Dennis Hi Dennis The original air gun has been found, it is now in a museum in the midwest somewhere according to the curator at Fort Clatsup. The one they had on display turned out to be different type than originally thougth to have been carried by Lewis. The one they found has the tank in the stock with a seperate hand pump. -- Jim Ellison, http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Killingsworth Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 04 Feb 1998 15:22:29 -0800 WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) wrote: > > Yes, have plenty that I used for the floor of my tepee, did not finish them > entirely since they were going to be a floor and did not need to be real > soft on the flesh side. > > Because of the hair going all the time, it gets everywhere, and thus > makes it not a good idea to tan a deer hide with hair on. The stuff gets > everywhere, and the crazy thing is that they never look like they have > less hair. Have 2 large ones from MN that have had for 15 years, still > lots of hair comes off, but not sign of them getting to be less hair. Thye reason the hair comes off is that it was not set properly when the tanning was done. I refer you back to a reply to this same line a few days ago and will not take space to reinterate the method. We use the large mule deer hides we get here in Idaho for floor coverings a lot and also for capes over our skins in the winter. They work great and we do not have a problem with much hair loss at all. Soaring Eagle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names Date: 04 Feb 1998 21:04:55 -0700 Sorry, I can't help you with the Mohawk. I'm just starting learn about the Iroquois in the West. I grew up (as much as I have grown up anyway) in Jim Bridger's back yard -- thinking that Old Gabe was the first mountain man to see most of this country. It has been quite a revelation as I grow long in tooth to discover that while Jim Bridger was still just a lad in St. Louis that Iroquois mountain men employed by the NWC were exploring Idaho as far south as the Bear River. -----Original Message----- >-----Original Message----- >From: David Tippets >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 8:09 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names > > >>I don't have the information to document it, but hope this grad student's >>research is published this year and it may include something about Black >>Harris. I met him at the Sept. fur trade symposium in Pinedale, but can't >>remember his name. He's one of Fred Gowans' grad student's, however, and >we >>should be able to ask Gowans for an update on the research. > > >[snip] > >David, you seem quite knowledgeable about the Iroquois. I'd like to know if >you know anything about a Mohawk chief named Tiyanoga, also known as >Hendrik. I've not had much success in gathering data. > >Thanks, > >Fred > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Watches (was: Time and Damascus Steel) Date: 04 Feb 1998 21:13:46 -0700 Thanks, you Gottfreds! It's fun to stike gold when you don't even expect it. Have pictures of any of the mentioned watches been published in any of the literature that you have cited? Thanks, Dave. -----Original Message----- >I'm turning this one over to my husband too! Jeff responds once more: > > "David Tippets" wrote: >>One interesting item from David Thompson's journal during his early years >>with the Hudson Bay Co. prior to his defection to the North West Fur Co., is >>that just as soon a clock was available that the HBC considered dependable >>and accurate enough to calculating longitude the Company immediately shipped >>Thompson one from England. There were no details about what the timepiece >>was like. > >Thompson first received two watches from the Hudson's Bay Company in 1792, >although the type and maker are not known. Both of these watches gave him >trouble, as he sent them for repair the following year, and borrowed a pair >from Joseph Colen, the Governor of York Factory. The following year (1794) >his watches returned from repair along with 'a second & stop watch with 2 >case val[ue] [pounds]12.12 - with spare glasses and keys per Jolly ordered >[serial] No. 310'. >This watch was made by Joseph Jolly, 11 Dean Street, Fetter Lane, London. >Jolly supplied watches to other early HBC explorers such as Peter Fidler >(No. 291) and Malchom Ross (No. 292) (Jeff & Angela Gottfred, "The Life of >David Thompson", in _Northwest Journal_ vol. V, citing Smyth). > >These Jolly watches appear to have been good quality 'common' watches, and >not the much more accurate 'pocket chronometers'. Even though pocket >chronometers were available, Thompson was not equipped with one. As late as >1810 he complains about the accuracy of his 'common watches'. I have >computed his watch rate during December 1810 to January 1811 at 4 seconds >per hour fast, plus or minus 9 seconds per hour. Such a watch would be >useless for direct computation of longitude. > >The pocket chronometers or 'deck watches' made by Arnold, Earnshaw and >Broeckbank were worth around 25 Guineas in 1806. Such pocket chronometers >were as accurate as a second or two per day. Note that even this is not >accurate enough for direct computation of longitude many months after the >watch is set. (How much the watch gains or loses in any time period is >irrelevant, what matters is whether the rate of gain or loss is constant. My >Seiko quartz watch gains 0.5 seconds per day - however, its rate is so >constant that I can compute GMT to one second accuracy after a year (leap >seconds notwithstanding!). Pocket chronometers did not have such constant >rates.) > >The better English made 'common' watches of the period (circa 1800) would >have used a rack lever escapement (the detached lever escapement used in >modern mechanical watches did not emerge until about 1814). >Pocket chronometers used a spring detent escapement (Arnold began producing >these in the early 1780's), required no oil, and keep just as good time >today as they did when they were first made 200 years ago. (Landes, David S. >_Revolution in Time : Clocks and the Making of the Modern World_. Belknap >Press : Cambridge, Mass, 1983. ISBN 0-674-76800-0.) > >It is also an interesting historical note that Harrison's famous >chronometers simply proved that accurate time-keeping was possible. His >designs (with the exception of the retaining power) did not survive his No. >4. The pocket and boxed marine chronometers of Arnold &c. had completely >different 'guts'. (see Sobel, Dava. _Longitude : The True Story of a Lone >Genius Who Solved the Greatist Scientific Problem of His Time_. Walker & Co. >: NY, 1995. ISBN 0-8027-1312-2) > > >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 05 Feb 1998 00:08:09 -0800 (PST) Sorry to disagree, but deer/elk hair is hollow and no matter how you tan the hide, the hair breaks off all the time and falls out. Beaver, buffalo and other types of hides do not have hollow hair, therefore the hair stays in. That is not to say that deer/elk with the hair on cannot be used, it just means that you will have to deal with hair falling out. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ > Thye reason the hair comes off is that it was not set properly when the >tanning was done. I refer you back to a reply to this same line a few >days ago and will not take space to reinterate the method. We use the >large mule deer hides we get here in Idaho for floor coverings a lot and >also for capes over our skins in the winter. They work great and we do >not have a problem with much hair loss at all. > >Soaring Eagle > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "L. A. Romsa" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply -Reply Date: 05 Feb 1998 08:14:31 -0700 > Thye reason the hair comes off is that it was >not set properly when the >tanning was done.=20 >Soaring Eagle I too have heard this! Although I don't have any personal experience, = YET!!!, I have been told that if the hair is not set properly it becomes = hollow ( like a straw) and easily breaks off. BrokenJaw. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J2HEARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 05 Feb 1998 11:27:56 EST Jerry's right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jolighthouse@webtv.net (jo tiger) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 05 Feb 1998 09:35:23 -0600 Thanks to all you Mt.Man guys for the great info on tanning deer hides w/hair on. I think my deer hunting friend can now proceed at his own risk, if he has the "brains* to do it! :) I figured when I surfed on to this bunch, y'all would KNOW! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 05 Feb 1998 11:03:43 +0000 I agree with jerry,deer/elk hair is hollow and brittle.July deer you will find is more like fur.When I say like fur its not as hollow or brittle as fall kills or as thick.Some indian reservation start hunting in july which I feel is more suitable for hair-on tanning plus the hides are thinner.I have worked with summer hides(as I call them)and find them much easier to work with. Best regards Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Deer hides Date: 05 Feb 1998 09:56:47 -0800 I'll have to throw in with Jerry, We both been sleeping on furs and hides for years ( me, 'bout 40 years!) Jerry is a lot younger and handsome'r too! Anyway, even on the best tanned deer and elk hides the hair will fall off, not because it comes of the hide so much as it BREAKS and falls off. On a poorly tanned hide the hairs will come off like a dog shedding. The worst of all hides is antelope and carabou. Their hair is hollow tubes, and they break very easily. Deer and elk hair is not really hollow, but has a shape that looks like it is. I get to see antelope, Mule deer, and elk hair all the time. I pick little bunches of it off our barbwire fences. Coyotes and badger will leave a little hair on the bottom rung of wire as well. The old 'yotes will hit that wire running full out, when they see my .22-250 stick out of the farm truck window! Over the years I've found that I prefer to use something like canvas layers on my lodge floor, then I put down my deer and elk hides. Being tanned in basically a salt and alum solution, the dressed hides are like a sponge to moisture. It is not a good idea to lay them directly on the ground as they will suck up moisture from it and in a few days they will start to turn blackish with mold. Lay them atop another ground cover and they won't go bad on you as long as you keep them dry. I have a rather large Black bear hide that I use over my HB blanket and have never been cold with it, even in -0 weather. Buffalo hides are great, but in most cases, their price is even more crazy than what they get for HB's & Whit's. A sign of the times I guess. I smile everytime I see someone ask how to tan deer hides, because for those that have done it......we know just how much work it is! Like other things we make, they may be tiresome and hard to do, but when finished....we sure are proud of our labors. I'm fixing to drop 13 big beaver into the pickling mix at present....and I'm not looking forward to the labor part, but they'll sure look nice when I put them in their willow hoops and hang'em on the cabin walls! Regards, _M_ MAnywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Moses "Black " Harris Date: 05 Feb 1998 13:38:58 EST Howdy All I recently spoke with Dr. Fred Gowans and Lynn Clayton who is a graduate student of Dr. Gowans about Moses Harris and whether he was an Iroquois. Both indicated that while it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility, there certainly is no conclusive proof that he was. (None that they are aware of) Certain clues lead one to believe that he probably was not. Most of the Iroquois trappers in the west adopted French names and Moses Harris certainly doesn't fit that mold. In Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan writes " His given name was Moses, and he was born, it is said, in Union County, South Carolina..." Alfred Jacob Miller describes him as " of wiry form, made up of bone and muscle, with a face apparently composed of tan leather and whip cord, finished off with a peculiar blue-black tint, as if gunpowder had been burnt into his face." One thing I do know is that he certainly was a man to be admired for his incredible stamina and survival skills. Imagine walking from Bear Lake in Northern Utah to St. Louis in mid winter! And again several years later from the Wind Rivers to St. Louis, both times with Bill Sublette. That's Some! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 05 Feb 1998 13:51:12 -0600 (CST) >Sorry to disagree, but deer/elk hair is hollow and no matter how you tan the >hide, the hair breaks off all the time and falls out. Beaver, buffalo and >other types of hides do not have hollow hair, therefore the hair stays in. >That is not to say that deer/elk with the hair on cannot be used, it just >means that you will have to deal with hair falling out. > Most of my hair-on hides are 8-10 years old or more, and still have most of their hair. They are just as thick and soft as the day they were shot. Granted that deer hair does fall out, as with most skins, but very little at a time on mine, and at this rate it could be fifty years or more before I have unservicable deer hide sleeping mats. Scraped, salted, and preserved right, the skin will remain in good shape indefinitely. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle Raffle Winner Date: 05 Feb 1998 14:04:03 -0500 Hello the list, Well, we have a winner of the Jack Garner Pa Poorboy rifle raffled by the Friends of Fort Frederick. Mr. Gary Smith of Hedgesville, WV is our lucky winner. Thanks to all who supported us. We are planning another raffle to happen during the 4 days of our 18th Century Market Fair in April. More guns and the tickets will be sold during the fair and the drawings held then also. Will provide more info as it developes. Again, thanks to all. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Flying Cloud Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 03 Feb 1998 15:21:21 -0800 Flying Cloud wrote: > > tigrbo1 wrote: > > > > JON P TOWNS wrote: > > >I have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles > > > > Greetings Jon, > > > > Many moons ago I paid a visit to Ft. Clatsap a few miles west of > > Astoria, Ore. on the northern oregon coast, and while there I also > > toured their museum. They had on display (replica?) air guns used by > > Lewis & Clark that used a spheariod air tank that attached about where a > > magizene would go on a modern rifle. Very interesting. > >> > > Best regards, > > > > Terry Smith > > Hi terry > They now say the air that was on display at the fort is the same type > as used by Lewis, the one he used had the air tank in the stock. > -- > > Jim Ellison, http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd Hands are to fast the air gun at the fort WAS NOT THE SAME as used by Lewis -- Jim Ellison, http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kat Subject: RE: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply -Reply Date: 05 Feb 1998 15:50:36 -0500 I have a hide in my shop on commission and as a display piece. It has the hair left on, and it sheds like a dog. We are forever sweeping up hair bits. I don't know where the artist got the piece from, so it may not have been a good hide in the first place. Dick, a gentleman I know who does beautiful brain tanning has always taken the hair off because of this problem. As an aside, does anyone know of a period use for the hair once it has been removed from the hide? Kat begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B$4`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`Z $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````5P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&AI'1 ;&ES=',N>&UI``(P M`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````'0```&AI'1 ;&ES=',N>&UI2 M4F5P;'D`?Q !!8 #``X```#.!P(`!0`/`#(`) `$`$4!`2" M`P`.````S@<"``4`#P`P``T`! `L`0$)@ $`(0```#4W,C@U-T-&-S4S,D)$ M,3$X,3DX-C(T,30V-C-".3 V`-\&`0.0!@#8" ``(0````L``@`!````"P`C M```````#`"8```````L`*0```````P`N```````#`#8``````$ `.0!@XIFU M=S*]`1X`< `!````,0```%)%.B!-=$UA;BU,:7-T.B!T86YN:6YG(&1E97(@ M:&ED97,@+5)E<&QY("U297!L>0`````"`7$``0```!8````!O3)WM/(D(ZBC MGC\1T;89W.RPP' 0```>`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````#P`` M`&MA=$!J86YR:7@N8V]M```#``80-:^5D ,`!Q!Q`0``'@`($ $```!E```` M24A!5D5!2$E$14E.35E32$]03TY#3TU-25-324].04Y$05-!1$E34$Q!65!) M14-%251(05-42$5(04E23$5&5$].+$%.1$E44TA%1%-,24M%041/1U=%05)% M1D]2159%4E-710`````"`0D0`0```*4%``"A!0``9 P``$Q:1G7@YR:S`P`* M`')C<&Y&_0GXK\F3RH? M*=TI7R>/*U0Y#E ?+J0P`2@C, `"@G-T>>IL!Y!H">!T```34 /P4&1C=&P* ML5PR6&&89&IU,7 %$&=H!4([%C(,`6,)P#)@`S!S;GQE>!DTYF)A%Q!D`B UH#5&YS'0,Y [D2 Q,3,.4#:?_S>O M.+\`43G\`* T;CQ_/8;_,20/P#Z//Y] KPY0.>]##]M$'SVS,P*"$Q!C-F!+ MH9,SD#VP=&DYD"!$`1"H875L!4!0"L!A"<#@87!H($8"(38D)4#H9FDM#Y X M`4 Y,% SZTP1&'H=&4Z-B0V3_]1#U(?_U,O M5#DQP#VC#B%+H3JV#E";56]6?E(Y@1-)X,/=X<'%1`8!N6# `8 GP3:#O?0`"`37@7E)E`/!] M`#& DG >@%QV")!W:PN _F1K0("B!/ '0"A1#\" HOQZ:PY0#@!Q(CV"@H4" M$-YO!4(7(1+R6,!M"U%8P* @0SI<7%<`;T[AWFU/, ,0!Y"%,$T-X -@Y'-O M`8 @3P$@#>!_\%ILU[2>T]<&%-\970:+$P$X"PP8AM>2 QP&]P( (@TB %H&UM! %IM;$`<'\U M($M M($]L'* "V"U0'#C")"'("X@205 %N $(/9T,="T,6D%P#&@AK$"(/XL MMH--P+51"8 $(&=P1J"WMO*%<+?P5[1Q&O @?W';8>*U4'=&L3W"=;60N,.: M8DW <[?QNM%N)P5 \FNQ`2!WB;*XCNY #8;F ?X:0 MN=(`P+5 $U"X(DWQ8O\)X;2!OW $<+2GN()NT!<`UP5 "U&WTD0-X&NY@;]@ M_WU!,: #@K0@OA7 P$MP!Y'WP>!.4$W09DY@O2!.P,+R7P!P.X*X,P= ;9!Y MN&%A[T:@PP2XPX:@9L'1@9"RD/\3@(:@N'$$`+>0`V "8(20_;?P0;;AMG$` MD $`N8#&`_T`<'D"(!. OA/*,970@&#?!1#"<,: M\ 1@9] U( -2N'3MM,$_"H4*A4M8L-'&&A $``#3, ````,`$! ``````P`1 M$ `````#`( 0_____T `!S!@XB9@=S*]`4 `"#!@XB9@=S*]`0L``( (( 8` M`````, ```````!&``````.%`````````P`"@ @@!@``````P ```````$8` M````$(4````````#``6 "" &``````# ````````1@````!2A0``MPT``!X` M)8 (( 8``````, ```````!&`````%2%```!````! ```#@N, `#`": "" & M``````# ````````1@`````!A0````````L`+X (( 8``````, ```````!& M``````Z%`````````P`P@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````$84````````# M`#* "" &``````# ````````1@`````8A0```````!X`08 (( 8``````, ` M``````!&`````#:%```!`````0`````````>`$* "" &``````# ```````` M1@`````WA0```0````$`````````'@!#@ @@!@``````P ```````$8````` M.(4```$````!`````````!X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`--/TW``## !K(4` ` end ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bamafan@Traveller.COM (PHIL PETERSEN) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 06 Feb 1998 02:57:25 GMT Joe knows what he is talking about. I have first hand knowledge. We would all be well served listning to he and Longtrail. Grasshoppa >I agree with jerry,deer/elk hair is hollow and brittle.July deer you >will find is more like fur.When I say like fur its not as hollow or >brittle as fall kills or as thick.Some indian reservation start hunting >in july which I feel is more suitable for hair-on tanning plus the hides >are thinner.I have worked with summer hides(as I call them)and find them >much easier to work with. Best regards Joe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Air guns- I want one Date: 05 Feb 1998 23:02:01 EST Does any one know if there are any gun makers making muzzle loading air guns ??? I've always wanted one !!!! Does any one know anything about the St Vitus Corp ??? I've heard stories around the camp fire at Voo that during the Napoleanic wars, the English sniped at night using these flashless rifles and the victims would jump up twitching and fall down dead like those stricken with the St Vitus Dance. Is that story true ???? Any other info out there ??? Watch your topknot JS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply Date: 05 Feb 1998 23:40:08 EST In a message dated 98-02-05 10:08:30 EST, you write: << Sorry to disagree, but deer/elk hair is hollow and no matter how you tan the hide, the hair breaks off all the time and falls out >> I'll tell my door flap to start losing it's hair pronto, apparantly it doesn't know any better. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moses "Black " Harris Date: 05 Feb 1998 21:42:08 -0700 Re: Black Harris You sure know more about Black Harris than I do, but I wouldn't discount his potential for having a NE Indian lineage by his Christian name. One of the things the Iroquois in the West became famous for were four attempts to travel from Flathead country to St. Louis to get a Priest to teach the Salish about Christ. They were finally successful, resulting in Father DeSmet, Father Point, and other black robes heading to the Rockies to teach the Indians. His British surname is not conclusive either, as there were enough Scots and English in Lower Canada to help the French mix Iroquis blood. A Canadian Park Ranger told me last summer that there are even Irish-sired subgroups of Metis. Being born in South Carolina, however, doesn't seem to contribute much to the arguement. -----Original Message----- >Howdy All > > I recently spoke with Dr. Fred Gowans and Lynn Clayton who is a >graduate student of Dr. Gowans about Moses Harris and whether he was an >Iroquois. Both indicated that while it's not entirely out of the realm of >possibility, there certainly is no conclusive proof that he was. (None that >they are aware of) > Certain clues lead one to believe that he probably was not. Most of the >Iroquois trappers in the west adopted French names and Moses Harris certainly >doesn't fit that mold. In Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale >Morgan writes " His given name was Moses, and he was born, it is said, in >Union County, South Carolina..." Alfred Jacob Miller describes him as " of >wiry form, made up of bone and muscle, with a face apparently composed of tan >leather and whip cord, finished off with a peculiar blue-black tint, as if >gunpowder had been burnt into his face." > One thing I do know is that he certainly was a man to be admired for >his incredible stamina and survival skills. Imagine walking from Bear Lake in >Northern Utah to St. Louis in mid winter! And again several years later from >the Wind Rivers to St. Louis, both times with Bill Sublette. That's Some! > >Todd Glover > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flatheads looking for Holy Book Date: 06 Feb 1998 00:12:23 EST Dave, In your post re: Moses Harris you referenced the Flatheads who came East looking for spiritual guidance. I've always heard that too and have seen nothing to refute it. However, in the PBS Lewis and Clark special, did you catch when they said that was not the reason the Flatheads came to St. Louis? I was surprised to hear that. Anyone else notice that? Anyone have any documentation that's not why they came? Jim Hardee AMM 1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Door flap Date: 05 Feb 1998 21:17:52 -0800 Lodgepole, don't ever lose that door flap, you'd never be able to replace it, it's gotta be one out of a 1000! regards, Manywounds ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 05 Feb 1998 22:27:39 -0700 Kat, I assume that you are asking the source for the Indian effigy hood. I started with what appears in paintings by Alfred Jacob Miller and are interpreted in the Mountain Man Sketchbook. Comments from people who reproduced these hoods were that they were hard to keep on the head without tying them on under the chin. Then I observed in a couple of sketches by a 19th Century artist named Eastman, that the effigy hoods worn by the Ojibwa appeared much more form fitting than those depicted by Miller, however, Eastman showed people wearing them in mid winter while Miller showed mountain men wearing them during the spring or summer when they may not have wanted tight woolen blanketing around their heads. I also located two sketches by Ellsworth Jaeger from the Buffalo Museum of Science showing Penobscot Indians in effigy hunting hoods. Jaeger's sketches, like Eastman's, showed form fitting effigy hoods. After cutting out the blanket pieces as suggested in the Mountain Man Sketchbook, I tacked them together then made the tailoring adjustments needed so that it would actually fit my head. It'll stay on in a strong wind blowing down the Yellowstone in winter with no chin strap needed. I wish Alfred Jacob Miller had stayed in the Rockies for four seasons and given us a year-round view, rather than just a summer perspective. Had Miller done that, I suspect he would have painted close fitting effigy hoods more like those depicted by Eastman and Jaeger. -----Original Message----- >no, then you would have been an elf. Could you please post your source for the hat? > >Kat > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply -Reply Date: 06 Feb 1998 08:01:42 -0500 Kat wrote: . As an aside, does anyone know of a period use for the hair once it has been removed from the hide? Kat, We have several books on Indians and in a couple they tell of balls of leather with a small rock in the center (for weight) and stuffed with deer hair before sewn shut. We have made several for our kids and given many away. The children think they are great and play for hours at rondys with them. Also, it was used to stuff winter mocs, but after trying this, I wouldn't recommend wearing socks at the same time! Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Valley Subject: MtMan-List: FW: 1837 Smallpox & Jeffery Amherst Date: 06 Feb 1998 09:49:47 -0500 Hello the list - Earlier this week, or last, I seem to recall that someone asked for information pertaining to smallpox. Although I deleted that message, I found the following entry dating back to the month of June within a reference file I maintain. Hope it helps. OBTW, does anyone out there know if the man who won the rifle in a raffle recently, is the same Gary Smith who lived in NH at one time and went by the handle of 'Sour Dough' ? -- Ron Valley ---------- Sent: Thursday, June 19, 1997 10:38 AM I'm not a doctor, but smallpox infected blankets were used during Pontiac's Rebellion by Amherst. I just did a web search and found the following link http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/nativeweb/subject/amherst/lord_jeff.html check it out! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rkleinx2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moses "Black " Harris Date: 06 Feb 1998 11:25:43 EST >>One thing I do know is that he certainly was a man to be admired for his incredible stamina and survival skills. Imagine walking from Bear Lake in Northern Utah to St. Louis in mid winter! And again several years later from the Wind Rivers to St. Louis, both times with Bill Sublette. That's Some!<< Moses Harris in 1846 also helped open the Southern Route to Oregon ( Applegate Trail). Dick (in Bremerton,WA.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: MtMan-List: smallpox Date: 06 Feb 1998 13:15:19 +0000 I found this book to be very informitive. It cost about 8 bucks or so. AN ETHNOHISTORICAL INTERPERETATION OF THE SPREAD OF SMALLPOX IN THE NORTHERN PLAINS UTILIZING CONCEPTS OF DISEASE ECOLOGY By Michael K. Trimble A study conducted for the National Park Service=20 Midwest Region Midwestern Archeological Center Lincoln, Nebraska Under Purchase Order Px-6115-9-054A Department of Anthropology College of Arts and Science University of Missouri-=C7olubmia Columbia, Missouri 65211 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks Subject: MtMan-List: Re: M. Harris in Ore. Date: 06 Feb 1998 13:15:55 -0800 To add to Dick Klein's recent post on Moses "Black" Harris, a little more info into his later life can be found at: http://www.emigrantswest.com/trail.htm One of my "Research Passions" is to locate information leading to the history of the later and last days of these " Men of the Mountains" we hold so close to our hearts. I remember somewhere, someone made the statement that "It was a crying shame that in-depth interviews were not made with the remaining Mountain Men befor their deaths" So many died in obscurity, without giving their biography's to us or at least passing along their side of so many great tales of adventure. I guess at the time things were different and so much history was still being made. Things like Custer's wipe out on the Little Bighorn in '76. I'm sure it was these new history making occurances in the West that kept the reporters busy. A close example would be why so few WWII soldiers were interviewed for their stories, The Korean War (police action) broke out only a few years after VE-Day in 1945. I remember when I was a kid, all the fuss was about interviewing the remaining Civil War Soldiers and writing down their stories of the battles before the survivors were all gone. This was because there was a lull in really major news, between WWI & WWII. Investigative reporters were looking for something interesting to sell to magazines or to their papers. So much in the West was happening, our Mountainy Men were of little interest to the public at the time and sadly they slipped away from the biographers of the day. I would like someday to finish documenting the final days of "OUR BOYS" and where they are buried. Only a handful of their resting places are known to us. Through research we can only hope to locate more. Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alisa Greet Subject: MtMan-List: Help Date: 04 Feb 1998 22:14:54 -0600 Information on Verendrye Brothers activities in the Big Horn Mountains during 1742 or 1743 needed. Help us find links! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A passing Date: 06 Feb 1998 20:10:02 -0600
Buffler Chip just called to let me know Charles Hanson passed away Wednesday.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Killingsworth Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Door flap Date: 06 Feb 1998 21:21:28 -0800 Dave Parks wrote: > > Lodgepole, don't ever lose that door flap, you'd never be able to > replace it, it's gotta be one out of a 1000! > > regards, Manywounds I don't want to get involved in a long discussion and stir-up hate and discontent, but I have to stand by my statement that has been backed up by several on this list. That is, "properly done" there is not a problem with falling hair on even deer. I stand silent on the subject after this. Soaring Eagle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Allana & Jolie Novotny Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 06 Feb 1998 23:08:49 -0800 For your information, in the Omaha World-Herald Friday, February 6, 1998, founder of the Fur Trade Museum at Chadron, NE Charles Hanson has died, "He died Wednesday at his new home in Kearney, Neb. He was 80." Funeral scheduled for 10am Monday at Nelson-Harris Funeral Home in Holdrege. I know some of you knew him. no@gpcom.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: FWD: Hoax Date: 07 Feb 1998 00:04:00 -0700 >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:01:50 -0700 (MST) >X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt >To: >From: Bob Kilpatrick >Subject: Hoax > >Have you heard of book "thirty one years in the plains and in the >mountains" by william f. drannon or drannan? I believe it may be a >hoax. author describes too many instances w/ Kit carson & many >other coincedences esp.w/ Modoc war which I doubt. > >-- >This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address > "Bob Kilpatrick " >may be incorrect. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Xcavatr@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Philip Creamer Date: 07 Feb 1998 02:49:05 EST Greetings, I would be interestd in any information any of you could provide regarding a well-known gunsmith--Philip Creamer. Primarily, I am concerned with his activities in the St. Louis area from 1806-1845. I am currently doing research on a log house that is believed to have been Creamer's first residence on his arrival to the St. Louis region. Any background info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Xcavatr@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply -Reply Date: 07 Feb 1998 06:32:02 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3392.19879680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know that the natives on the west coast wore hair on hides to help shed the rain in the winter. Oh by the way does anyone know how to tell when its winter in the NW rain forest?? Give up! Its warmer in the summer. As Lewis said many times in his journals while on the Pacific coast ( All wet and disagreeable) Later Jon T ---------- : From: kat : To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com' : Subject: RE: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply -Reply : Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 12:50 PM : : I have a hide in my shop on commission and as a display piece. It has the : hair left on, and it sheds like a dog. We are forever sweeping up hair : bits. I don't know where the artist got the piece from, so it may not have : been a good hide in the first place. Dick, a gentleman I know who does : beautiful brain tanning has always taken the hair off because of this : problem. As an aside, does anyone know of a period use for the hair once it : has been removed from the hide? : : Kat : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3392.19879680 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I know that the natives on the west = coast wore hair on hides to help shed the rain in the winter. Oh = by the way does anyone know how to tell when its winter in the NW rain = forest?? Give up! Its warmer in the summer. As Lewis = said many times in his journals while on the Pacific coast ( All wet and = disagreeable)
Later Jon T

----------
: From: = kat <kat@janrix.com>
: To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'
: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides = -Reply -Reply
: Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 12:50 PM
:
: = I have a hide in my shop on commission and as a display piece. It has = the
: hair left on, and it sheds like a dog. We are forever sweeping = up hair
: bits. I don't know where the artist got the piece from, so = it may not have
: been a good hide in the first place. Dick, a = gentleman I know who does
: beautiful brain tanning has always taken = the hair off because of this
: problem. As an aside, does anyone = know of a period use for the hair once it
: has been removed from = the hide?
:
: Kat
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3392.19879680-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Philip Creamer Date: 07 Feb 1998 11:33:48 -0500 Private---- HAVE CHECKED ALL OF MY BOOKS THAT I USE FOR REFERENCE ON DATING AND RESTORING RIFLES. PHILIP CREAMER IS NOT LISTED. A BASIC LIST I CHECKED ARE: 1.THE PLAINS RIFLE BY CHARLES E HANSON 2.GREAT GUNS BY PETERSON 3. THE PENNSYLVANIA KENTUCKY RIFLE BY KAUFFMAN 4. THE KENTUCKY RIFLE BY THE KENTUCKY RIFLE ASSOCIATION 5. THE HAWKINS RIFLE BY JOHN BAIRD 6. FIFTEEN YEARS IN THE HAWKINS LODE BY BAIRD 7. PATCH BOXES AND BARREL MARKS BY CHANDLER AND ABOUT 7 0R 8 OTHERS (ie THE RECREATION SERIES )THAT I SOMETIME USE JUST TO FIND A NAME OR BACKGROUND DATA. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU WRITE OR CONTACT THE FOLLOWING: THE ST LOUIS HISTORICAL SOCIETY, THE ST LOUIS COUNTY TAX ASSESSOR, THE ST LOUIS GUN COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION (THERE IS SEVERAL WHO COLLECT ONLY ST LOUIS GUNS)( IF YOU CONTACT ME @ E-MAIL HAWKNEST4@JUNO.COM I CAN GIVE YOU A STARTING NAME YOU CAN ALSO GIVE ME A PHONE CALL THE NUMBER IS BELOW), THE GEMMNER MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE CLUB, THE MISSOURI HISTORICAL SOCIETY. WHEN I GET TOTALLY LOST I USUALLY CALL OR WRITE TO LEE GOOD WHO IS THE CURATOR OF A GUN MUSEUM IN OKLAHOMA (SAME TOWN AS WILL ROGERS WAS BORN IN) AND AN EXPERT IN FINDING NAMES OF GUNSMITHS SINCE HE HAS A EXTREME GOOD LIBRARY OF MAKERS AND A DATABASE TO TRACK THEM. HE US TO BE IN MUZZLE BLAST MAGAZINE EVER MONTH WITH LETTERS TO HIM ASKING FOR INFORMATION . GEORGE SHUMWAY WHO WRITES MANY BOOKS CAN ALSO GIVE YOU A LINE ON THE GUN MAKER, AND IS AN EXPERT ON LOCATING A MAKER. I DO A LOT OF RESTORATION AND THESE ARE WHERE I USUALLY START TO GET A BASE. SOMETIMES YOU WILL EVEN FIND SOMEONE WHO HAS ONE OF THE MAKERS GUNS THAT THEY CAN SEND YOU PICTURES OF. A MAN BY THE NAME OF KIP RAP (sp) IN ST LOUIS IS ALSO A EXPERT ON ST LOUIS MAKERS OF ST LOUIS RIFLES AND HAS A LOT OF PICTURES. I CAN GO ON FOR A LONG TIME ON THE TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS THAT I HAVE HAD TRYING TO LOCATE A INDIVIDUAL MAKER AND TO GET BACKGROUND ON THEM . FOR THE RESTORATION OF THE LOG CABIN CONTACT BETTY JO QUIBELL @ 813-799- 2510 WHO IS AN EXPERT ON LOG HOME RESTORATION. SHE IS PRESENTLY LIVING IN A LOG HOME BUILT IN THE MID 1800 IN SAFETY HARBOR FLORIDA. AND IS THE OLDEST RESIDENCE IN THE AREA. HOPE I HAVE BEEN OF SOME HELP TO YOU AND SORRY FOR THE LENGTH OF THIS EPISTLE. "Hawkeye" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 02:49:05 EST XCAVATR@aol.com writes: >Greetings, > > I would be interestd in any information any of you could provide >regarding a well-known gunsmith--Philip Creamer. Primarily, I am >concerned >with his activities in the St. Louis area from 1806-1845. I am >currently >doing research on a log house that is believed to have been Creamer's >first >residence on his arrival to the St. Louis region. Any background info >would >be greatly appreciated. Thank you. > >Xcavatr@aol.com > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: Charles Hanson Date: 07 Feb 1998 09:46:43 +0000 It is hard to believe Charles is gone. I think he has done as much for the history of the fur trade as anyone I know. His research showed the way for the rest of us and I don't know of anyone else who can lay claim to establishing a museum like he and his wife did. It is too bad that his last years had to be embroiled in a family fight, but then he certainly wasn't a man to back away from one when he knew he was in the right. We will all miss him and my heart goes out to his wife. Charles - may your journey be a good one and I hope you will welcome me into your camp someday. Don Keas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J2HEARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: M. Harris in Ore. Date: 07 Feb 1998 12:10:54 EST Dave, I live in Napa, Ca. As you are no doubt aware, many a trapper and mountain man migrated in their later years to California. I have personally been to the gravesites of the folowing: James Clyman................Napa, Ca. It is believed there are some of the more obscure mountain men burried there also. They have a graves registry there and are willing to help with historical documentation. James Walker.................Martinez, Ca. James Kirker...................Somersville, Ca. It is believed he is burried in an unmaked grave in a town that no longer exists (Sommersville). It used to be a mining community is the 30's and had it's own graveyard. I think I remember seeing the reminents of it some 30 years ago off the side of the road between the cities of Pittsburg and Concord along Kirker Pass Road. Thought this info might help in later research. John Funk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Symposium-2000 Date: 07 Feb 1998 20:50:24 EST For those who didn't make the Fur Trade symposium in Pinedale last September, you may want to start making long range plans for the next one. It will be held at Fort Union Trading Post National Historic Site near Williston, ND. It will be sometime in September 2000. The tentative focus is the Upper Missouri fur trade, 1802-1895. For further details and questions, contact Robert Thomson at r.wolfe@mailexcite.com Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Windhams" Subject: MtMan-List: New Skinners co. Date: 08 Feb 1998 18:16:37 -0800 Ahoy camp, for those of ya out in the calif. area we've started a new page with treckers items, a list of rendezvous in the so. cal area and a camp full of hospitality, I won't act like I have no intrest, but the goods are fair and the grog devine check us out when you have the time, know of an event let us know and it's posted, no charge for club or bus. jus want the sprit alive. note: trappers beware our righs are under fire the tree huggers want the right to trap for ever vanished in ca.the bill has the numbers to be put to a vote ! oh yea the page can be found at http:www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: khall@spacetech.com (Ken Hall) Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader Videos Date: 08 Feb 1998 04:08:45 GMT Hail the list: I have read with interest the very positive reviews of Hershel House's how to videos on the MLML web site and I was wondering if anyone has viewed the Homer Dangler videos? Would purchasing these videos in addition to the H. House give a broader scope or are the techniques so dissimilar that the comparision would raise more questions than answer. Thanks very much for your input. /Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gemini <"gemini@socket.net"@socket.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Skinners co. Date: 08 Feb 1998 08:49:14 +0000 The Windhams wrote: > Ahoy camp, > for those of ya out in the calif. area we've started a new page with > treckers items, a list of rendezvous in the so. cal area and a camp > full of > hospitality, I won't act like I have no intrest, but the goods are > fair and > the grog devine check us out when you have the time, > know of an event let us know and it's posted, no charge for club or > bus. > jus want the sprit alive. note: trappers beware our righs are under > fire > the tree huggers want the right to trap for ever vanished in ca.the > bill > has the numbers to be put to a vote ! > oh yea the page can be found at > http:www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html Can't seem to locate your site. Netscape tells me no name specified. Crazyman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: New Skinners co. Date: 08 Feb 1998 09:41:06 +0000 I'm not surprised they want to eleminate trapping in California. They did that to us here in Colorado and mostly the Californicators that led the fight. You guys have a fight on your hands and I hate to say it, but I'm going to guess it is a losing battle for you. Emotions count for a lot more than common sense when it comes to voters. The Windhams wrote: >Ahoy camp, >for those of ya out in the calif. area we've started a new page with >treckers items, a list of rendezvous in the so. cal area and a camp full of >hospitality, I won't act like I have no intrest, but the goods are fair and >the grog devine check us out when you have the time, >know of an event let us know and it's posted, no charge for club or bus. >jus want the sprit alive. note: trappers beware our righs are under fire >the tree huggers want the right to trap for ever vanished in ca.the bill >has the numbers to be put to a vote ! >oh yea the page can be found at >http:www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id AEB27E702A8; Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:28:50 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y1R29-0007Hu-00; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:20:09 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y1R27-0007HV-00; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:20:07 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id >AAA25711 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:20:06 -0700 (MST) >Received: from mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22] > by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y1MKU-0006N3-00; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:18:46 -0700 >Received: from dry.jps.net [208.25.63.253] > by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y1MKT-0003B5-00; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:18:45 -0700 >Received: from test (ila-port295.jps.net [206.18.125.206]) > by dry.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA27269 > for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:18:44 -0800 (PST) >Message-Id: <199802080218.SAA27269@dry.jps.net> >From: "The Windhams" >To: "hist _text mailing list" >Subject: MtMan-List: New Skinners co. >Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:16:37 -0800 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Priority: 3 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881269967 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply -Reply Date: 08 Feb 1998 02:54:57 -0500 FOR THOSE OF YOU OUT THER THAT DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT DEER HIDES WITH HAIR ON THEM. DEER HAIR IS HOLLOW AND WHEN WALKED ON WILL BREAK OFF AND SHEAD. IF YOU HAVE A DEER OR SIMILAR HIDE ITS ONLY USE CANNOT BE ONE WHERE IT IS WALKED ON ONLY AS A HANGING OR IN CLOTHING THAT WILL NOT BE WALKED ON. DEER HAIR IS AN EXCEPTIONAL HAIR BECAUSE OF ITS HOLLOWNESS FOR FISH FLYS BECAUSE OF ITS HOLLOWNESS WILL FLOAT. MOST OF THE SO CALLED RUGS MADE OF DEERHIDES THAT ARE TANNED ARE USUALLY BEST USED AS A WALL DECORATION OR AS A CLOSURE FOR A LODGE DOOR OR FOR A WRAP. I HATE TO SHOW MY STUPIDITY BUT I ALWAYS THOUGHT THIS WAS THE REASON FOR TANNING DEER SKINS WITH HAIR ON THEM THEY SHOULD NEVER BE USED AS RUGS. THEY CAN BE USED AS BED COVERS AND THE LIKE BUT YOU MUST EXPECT THE HAIR TO SHED WITH USAGE. JUST BECAUSE IT IS SHEADING IS NOT A SIGN THAT IT IS A BAD HIDE OR THAT IT HAS BEEN TANNED IMPROPERLY. "Hawkeye" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart Subject: MtMan-List: New Skinners co. Date: 08 Feb 1998 13:31:06 -0800 For those having trouble with the previously listed link it's: http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html Medicine Bear ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 08 Feb 1998 16:49:49 EST Hoy, the net! I appreciate all the knowledge you hivernants have shared with this here pilgrim! Let me hit you up for one more... My wife and I go to a week long camp every year with my work. I am afraid I have no choice in this one! Every body else has "tin tipis" with all the fixin's... we have a small car. With my love of buckskinning, and two camp outs or more each year, we are thinking of getting a tipi for it. (We don't have kids yet but plan to start on that one soon enough!) So here are my questions: What are the best tipis at a good price? How can we move them around with a small car? And the most important one... HOW DO WE KEEP OUT MOSQUITOS AND OTHER PESTS? Your advice is appreciated as usual. Thanks, John Fleming Detroit, Michigan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Skinners co. Date: 08 Feb 1998 19:00:26 EST In a message dated 98-02-08 13:58:27 EST, you write: << > has the numbers to be put to a vote ! > oh yea the page can be found at > http:www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html Can't seem to locate your site. Netscape tells me no name specified. Crazyman >> Crazyman, He forgot the // in the url. try it again at this address: http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Poison lead balls Date: 08 Feb 1998 20:22:49 EST In the "Journal of a Trapper" edited by Haines, on page 52, Russell talks about a Delaware Indian that was shot with a "poisoned ball" in the leg. The ball lodged under the knee cap and the man died within four days. I've never heard of such a thing and what kind of poison could the Blackfeet have used? I don't think your basic bacteria can work that fast...... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: California and Trapping/hunting Date: 08 Feb 1998 18:00:26 -0800 (PST) On 8 Feb 1998, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > I'm not surprised they want to eleminate trapping in California. They > did that to us here in Colorado and mostly the Californicators that led the > fight. You guys have a fight on your hands and I hate to say it, but I'm > going to guess it is a losing battle for you. Emotions count for a lot > more than common sense when it comes to voters. Isn't California the state that banned mountain lion hunting until the big cats started eating voters/joggers? It's kinda funny, but with the large influx of out-of-state city dwellers coming to live in rustic Idaho, we fight every year it seems to keep hunting rights. Last election it was a fight to be able to run bears with hounds. Can't wait to see what's up next time. At least they don't bother them crazy fools what shoot frontstuffers.... yet. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Lewis & Clark Date: 07 Feb 1998 15:07:32 -0800 Jim Ellison/Flying Cloud wrote: > Yes, Donna and I spent the day at the Fort Clatsup this last >summer, the air gun is no longer on display, we where able to pick >several books on Clark for our great nephews who are direct >decendentsof Clark. Greetings Jim, How completely cool that your great nephews are decendents of Clark. How old are they? And do they realize the significance of their lineage? What a coup when it comes time to do a report on the Corps of Descoverary for history class. Judith and I will look you up at the Enumclaw show in March, Keep your powder dry. Best regards, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Anti-Skinners Date: 08 Feb 1998 18:09:58 -0800 Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > >I'm not surprised they want to eleminate trapping in California. They >did that to us here in Colorado and mostly the Californicators that >led the fight. You guys have a fight on your hands and I hate to say >it, but I'm going to guess it is a losing battle for you. Emotions >count for a lot more than common sense when it comes to voters. Greetings to the Cal. Crowd, Don't be discoruaged. The anti gun types from California knew for a fact that I-676, mandatory registretion law, was going to pass here in Washington. They used hype, rhetoric, emotion charged testamonials, half truths, lies and rigged poll results in their bid to win. In the end we sent them back south with a size 10 boot print on their butts. My advice is attend all the meetings and news confrences and present your side of the story. Be neat, clean, articulate and above all professional. Make them stick to the facts and you do the same. Best of luck, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: JACQUES LARAMIE Date: 08 Feb 1998 21:22:45 -0700 >Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:02:27 -0700 (MST) >X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt >To: >From: MITCH LARAMIE >Subject: JACQUES LARAMIE > >JACQUES LARAMIE IS MY GREAT GREAT GRAND UNCLE. >THE YEAR OF HIS BIRTH IS UNKNOWN, HOWEVER, HE WAS KILLED BY >INDIANS AND WAS HIODEN IN A BEAVER DAM. HE WAS ONE OF A FEW >MEN TO DISCOVER THE OREGON TRAIL. HE DIED IN THE YEAR 1821. >THE LARAMIE MOUNTAINS, LARAMIE PARK, LARAMIE COUNTY AND THE CITY >OF LARAMIE ARE NAMED AFTER HIM. WE LOVE HISTORY AND >ARE PLEASED TO OFFER YOU THIS INFORMATION. YOU CAN CONTACT >THE CITY OF LARAMIE, WYOMING TO GATHER ALL THE INFO YOU NEED. >MOST OF THE LARAMIE'S SETTLED IN FLORISSANT, MISSOURI AND ARE LOCATED >THERE AND ABOUT. THANK YOU. > > >-- >This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address > "MITCH LARAMIE " >may be incorrect. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stephen C. Merritt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Lewis & Clark Date: 08 Feb 1998 23:13:59 -0600 At 03:07 PM 2/7/98 -0800, you wrote: >Jim Ellison/Flying Cloud wrote: > >> Yes, Donna and I spent the day at the Fort Clatsup this last >summer, the air gun is no longer on display, we where able to pick >several books on Clark for our great nephews who are direct >decendentsof Clark. > >Greetings Jim, > > How completely cool that your great nephews are decendents of Clark. >How old are they? And do they realize the significance of their lineage? >What a coup when it comes time to do a report on the Corps of >Descoverary for history class. Judith and I will look you up at the >Enumclaw show in March, Keep your powder dry. > >Best regards, > > Run into more Clarks as time goes on!! Clark is my great-great-great-whatever grandpappy! :-) Stephen Merritt mailto:scmerritt@mindspring.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 08 Feb 1998 22:06:02 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD34DD.BEA2D0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John you make it very hard to give you a good answer. A small car won't work with out a lot of rework to carry to the poles even if you go with small car for one thing you eat up a lot of room with the bag of canvas so I don't know where you are going to carry you food, camp kitchen box, clothes, bed rolls and etc. Back in the late 60's my hunten pardoner we went up to Trout Lake in the UP about 25 miles + from the big Mac bridge. We had a 18' tent, cooking gear, lanterns, stoves and guns. That ain't all I shot a deer a 8pt about 250# nice buck. What made this so funny is we were driving a 66 VW. We lived near Battle Creek and had to drive back 300 miles home. When we finely got the deer on the top of that car he looked like he was making love to the love bug. We got a lots of looks on our way home. At the game check at the bridge the game wardens were laughing so hard they had tears running do their cheeks. My point is get a small trailer there is some small ones that are light. pack as light as you can you will learn, get a small wall tent which would be correct and you can put in small wood stove to put in it later. A large wedge tent would be good also. Anyway good luck getting all that Poop in the car. I have had from 22' tepees, wall tents, wedge tents, lean to. I use a truck and it is full and I pack light. Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi : Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 1:49 PM : : Hoy, the net! : : I appreciate all the knowledge you hivernants have shared with this here : pilgrim! Let me hit you up for one more... : : My wife and I go to a week long camp every year with my work. I am afraid I : have no choice in this one! Every body else has "tin tipis" with all the : fixin's... we have a small car. With my love of buckskinning, and two camp : outs or more each year, we are thinking of getting a tipi for it. (We don't : have kids yet but plan to start on that one soon enough!) So here are my : questions: : : What are the best tipis at a good price? : : How can we move them around with a small car? : : And the most important one... HOW DO WE KEEP OUT MOSQUITOS AND OTHER PESTS? : : Your advice is appreciated as usual. : : Thanks, : : John Fleming : Detroit, Michigan ------=_NextPart_000_01BD34DD.BEA2D0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John you make it very hard to give you = a good answer. A small car won't work with out a lot of rework to = carry to the poles even if you go with small car for one thing you eat = up a lot of room with the bag of canvas so I don't know where you are = going to carry you food, camp kitchen box, clothes, bed rolls and etc. = Back in the late 60's my hunten pardoner we went up to Trout Lake = in the UP about 25 miles + from the big Mac bridge. We had a 18' = tent, cooking gear, lanterns, stoves and guns. That ain't all I = shot a deer a 8pt about 250# nice buck. What made this so funny is = we were driving a 66 VW. We lived near Battle Creek and had to = drive back 300 miles home. When we finely got the deer on the top = of that car he looked like he was making love to the love bug. We = got a lots of looks on our way home. At the game check at the = bridge the game wardens were laughing so hard they had tears running do = their cheeks. My point is get a small trailer there is some small = ones that are light. pack as light as you can you will learn, = get a small wall tent which would be = correct and you can put in small wood stove to put in it later. = A large wedge tent would be good also. Anyway good = luck getting all that Poop in the car. I have had from 22' = tepees, wall tents, wedge tents, lean to. I use a truck and = it is full and I pack light. Later Jon Towns =

----------<= br>: From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi
: Date: Sunday, = February 08, 1998 1:49 PM
:
: Hoy, the net!
:
: I = appreciate all the knowledge you hivernants have shared with this = here
: pilgrim! Let me hit you up for one more...
:
: My = wife and I go to a week long camp every year with my work. I am = afraid I
: have no choice in this one! Every body else has = "tin tipis" with all the
: fixin's... we have a small = car. With my love of buckskinning, and two camp
: outs or more = each year, we are thinking of getting a tipi for it. (We = don't
: have kids yet but plan to start on that one soon enough!) = So here are my
: questions:
:
: What are the best tipis = at a good price?
:
: How can we move them around with a small = car?
:
: And the most important one... HOW DO WE KEEP OUT = MOSQUITOS AND OTHER PESTS?
:
: Your advice is appreciated as = usual.
:
: Thanks,
:
: John Fleming
: Detroit, = Michigan

------=_NextPart_000_01BD34DD.BEA2D0C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California and Trapping/hunting Date: 09 Feb 1998 07:10:56 EST Didn't know there were still people running hounds after bears still nowdays. Are they Plotts or Walker hounds? Mine is a Louisiana Leopard Catahoula. They used to run bears but now days we use them mostly for deer or hog hunting in the South. Heard Plotts are excellent hounds but tend to run after cold scents and make alot of trouble for hunters becuase they have to track them days after hunting...with catahoulas you don't have that problem becuase they will track fresh scent only. Personally I think it's more sensible to run hounds after bears...would you rather get clawed up by a bear or have your dogs handle it much more effieciently than you? Same thing with wild hogs here....you will not want to stand in the path of a 500 lb sow bearing down on ya...here we do have some idiots whose idea of a good time is to go mano-a-mano with a hog with just a knife and they do end up in the hospital saying how fun it was. With dogs you have less of a problem. Was wondering if the economy of Idaho is so good that people from out of state are moving in? If this isn't appropriate for this list then e-mail me in private. Thanks. TedHart@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 09 Feb 1998 09:51:20 EST In a message dated 98-02-09 00:10:27 EST, John Fleming Detroit, Michigan wrote to ask: << What are the best tipis at a good price?>> In the past year I have seen 4 good USED tipis's for sale. And in fact my neighbor up the road plans to put his on the market this year. I have slept in it and it was in fine shape (Spring Valley Lodge I think). If you want you can contact me direct off the list at ctoakes@aol.com and I can give you his Phone # and E-mail address. But I would say that from Detroit East you will find them for sale used at good prices as many of the eastern F&I and Rev War events do not allow them. <> With 20'+ poles the Small Car will either need an ingeniuos roof rack (custom) or a trailer. I know several people with converted boat trailers to carry the poles and some gear. And there is a knife and walking stick dealer goes by the name of Peddler that carries his on top of his old Buick with a bolt on front and rear upright. << And the most important one... HOW DO WE KEEP OUT MOSQUITOS AND OTHER PESTS?>> As one of the few lodges that you can have an open fire in the bug problem is not bad, but as with all pre-mosquito net era tents you will get bugs in if there are bugs about. When my family first got into this life (some call it a hobby) we barrowed and used at one event each a; Tipi, Baker, Monster Wedge, Wall and Marquis. Liked the Tipi for space but I did not have a vehicle for the poles, same was true of the Baker and the Marquis (lots of poles). Ended up with a Wall for the family and have recently been planning on buying a 1750 French Bell Back Wedge for my wife and I for the short weekenders. Of all the Wedge (except for the leantoo ,limited privacy,and ground tarp) is the least to carry and the quickest to put up. But if you really want a tipi I'm sure you can find a welding shop that can come up with a Pole Rack that will work. And I must say that laying down at the end of a fine day and looking straight up at the stars is a great way to go to sleep. You Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 09 Feb 1998 11:16:32 -0500 My wife and I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and can barely get out short weekend stuff all in it. I bought a Monster Wedge from Panther just for weekend events. I have a 12x12 wall, and it makes no sense to drag all that along for 3 days. Its just 3 poles and 14 stakes, and the bag. Thats it. Easy to pack in a small car, and poles will fit on any standard roof rack. For the long ones, it takes my 6x12 trailer to haul all of it. We just GOTTA pare this down!! You'll find that the amount of "stuff" you have will grow to fit your transportation, then you buy a trailer, etc... I do agree with the others, that with a "small" car, you will have a hard time getting all your gear in it for the events. A Monster Wedge may do you better as there are only 4 poles, no ropes (unless you want to add a couple front and back), and it is plenty big enough for 2 people and gear if you are just starting out. There are many things you can add... cook box, fly, furniture, etc... but that can come later for the most part. If you want a list of the basics we take to a "shortie", email me at sea@naplesnet.com and I will send it to you. SeanBear aka Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Any Boy Scout Voyageur Explorers? Date: 09 Feb 1998 12:57:51 -0600 The following is a post I found on a Scout newsgroup. Jim Voyageur Posts.... Date: 7 Feb 1998 20:17:20 GMT From: bampam38@aol.com (BAMPAM38) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: rec.scouting.usa I am the president of a voyageur Explorer Post in Michigan. I am wondering if anyone would be willing to share how they got their voyageur Posts off the ground, and started. Any information will be appreciated. Heidi Post 2048 Gerald R. Ford Council Michigan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 09 Feb 1998 12:52:59 -0700 Time-- David Tippets asked if there are any pictures of the watches Jeff referred to in his previous post. I'm sorry to say that there aren't any. _Revolution in Time_ does have some nice B&W plates showing the way watches got thinner throughout the history of watchmaking, however. Touchwood-- A while back, someone briefly mentioned that on the frontier, touchwood was used to start fires much more frequently than charred cloth. I would like to add my hearty agreement to this. In my reading of Canadian fur trade journals & memoirs (1774-1821), I have found : 7 references to touchwood 1 reference to "tatters hanging from grey birch" 1 reference to charcoal 1 reference to punk or "dried rotten wood" Thompson-- Barbara Belyea has just put up a web site which has a lengthy excerpt from her edition of David Thompson's Columbia Journals. It's at http://www.telusplanet.net/public/belyea Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 09 Feb 1998 15:45:02 +0000 We have one from Earthworks which is in Ridgeway, Co. It is 800-288-3190. Great TP, reinforced at all weak points with leather. Good price too. Moving it with a small car? Probably can't since the poles for a 16 footer are 20 to 22 feet. Keeping out pests? If you have a fire, the smoke will keep them out. Usually pests aren't that big a problem. Don and Phyllis Keas DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY JFLEMYTH wrote: >Hoy, the net! > >I appreciate all the knowledge you hivernants have shared with this here >pilgrim! Let me hit you up for one more... > >My wife and I go to a week long camp every year with my work. I am afraid I >have no choice in this one! Every body else has "tin tipis" with all the >fixin's... we have a small car. With my love of buckskinning, and two camp >outs or more each year, we are thinking of getting a tipi for it. (We don't >have kids yet but plan to start on that one soon enough!) So here are my >questions: > >What are the best tipis at a good price? > >How can we move them around with a small car? > >And the most important one... HOW DO WE KEEP OUT MOSQUITOS AND OTHER PESTS? > >Your advice is appreciated as usual. > >Thanks, > >John Fleming >Detroit, Michigan > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id AA6550901BE; Sun, 08 Feb 1998 21:47:33 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y1l20-0001Gt-00; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:41:20 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y1l1w-0001Fl-00; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:41:16 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id >VAA24090 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:41:15 -0700 (MST) >Received: from imo26.mail.aol.com [198.81.19.154] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y1ecs-0001rM-00; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:50:58 -0700 >Received: from JFLEMYTH@aol.com > by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id IIAVa18883 > for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:49:49 -0500 (EST) >From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com >Message-ID: <7140fa91.34de287f@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:49:49 EST >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881269980 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Lewis & Clark Date: 09 Feb 1998 15:53:03 -0600 (CST) >> How completely cool that your great nephews are decendents of Clark. >>How old are they? And do they realize the significance of their lineage? >>What a coup when it comes time to do a report on the Corps of >>Descoverary for history class. Judith and I will look you up at the >>Enumclaw show in March, Keep your powder dry. >> >>Best regards, >> >Run into more Clarks as time goes on!! Clark is my >great-great-great-whatever grandpappy! > >:-) Maybe Clark was the *real* Father of our Country?? ;-) Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 09 Feb 1998 18:59:40 PST Before you buy a tipi look at a medium sized tallboy pryamid tent. You can put it up with one pole in the center, two poles outside set up as shears or with no poles at all by tying it to a convenient overhanging limb. Plus you can actually transport one in a small car. You might stuff a tipi cover, liner and ozan into a small car but I want to see where you carry a couple of dozen poles. Good luck, one way or the other. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ------- > Hoy, the net! > > I appreciate all the knowledge you hivernants have shared with this here > pilgrim! Let me hit you up for one more... > > My wife and I go to a week long camp every year with my work. I am afraid I > have no choice in this one! Every body else has "tin tipis" with all the > fixin's... we have a small car. With my love of buckskinning, and two camp > outs or more each year, we are thinking of getting a tipi for it. (We don't > have kids yet but plan to start on that one soon enough!) So here are my > questions: > > What are the best tipis at a good price? > > How can we move them around with a small car? > > And the most important one... HOW DO WE KEEP OUT MOSQUITOS AND OTHER PESTS? > > Your advice is appreciated as usual. > > Thanks, > > John Fleming > Detroit, Michigan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 09 Feb 1998 20:20:53 EST Thanks for all your advice on lodges... And for any more that may be coming. I was looking for a tipi at first just because of the room and comfort, but I think it is a bad idea right now. A couple of you mentioned 'marques'. This is a new one for me. What is it and where can I get some info on one. Also, some time back some of you gave me some advice on flint locks. Based on it, I got a Wilderness Rifle Works Cumberland in .50 cal. from Bob G. at Thunder Ridge muzzle loading. It just arrived today, and I am finishing it now. If it shoots as well as it feels, I'll be having a good summer! I also look forward to doing more business with Thunder Ridge. Again, thanks! Being in on this group has been the best thing helping me get started. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DJZapfel@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Any Boy Scout Voyageur Explorers? Date: 09 Feb 1998 20:53:46 EST Hey I can send you some info as soon as I get it from my end. I got involved in the lifestyle through scouting and my younger brother attained eagle as an Explorer in Post 1776 in Milwaukee, WI. Milwaukee County Council at point in time had an extremely strong and active reenacting post. They might be able to help as well. Drop me a line and I will see what I can do for ya. Good Luck! Bus DJZapfel@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: RE: MtMan-List: tanning deer hides -Reply -Reply Date: 09 Feb 1998 20:04:05 -0600 (CST) >Kat wrote: > >. As an aside, does anyone know of a period use for the >hair once it has been removed from the hide? It's just a personal opinion, but pad saddle stuffing would be a good guess since it was probably more abundant than buffalo hair (also used in pad saddles). I would guess that more deer were hunted by tribes than buffalo, and more deer skins were tanned hair-off than buffalo, therefore, deer hair would have been in more abundance. Notwithstanding the fact that a male buffalo hide could be 6-8 times larger than a deer hide, but it was the smaller cow skin, not the bull, which yielded the most buffalo hair. Long hair only covered the shoulders and forward half of the bull's back, whereas it covered the entire body of the cow. (That's how you can tell them apart at a distance, btw.) Nevertheless, deer skins probably outnumbered buffalo hides in camp. Pardon me if I ramble, but saddle stuffing seems a logical, economical, and period use for deer hair. I tried stuffing a pillow with it once, but I could never stuff it enough for comfort to suit me. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 09 Feb 1998 21:20:22 EST Dear John (no pun intended) As far as ease of set-up, portability, storage and transport, there is nothing like a pyramid tent. They fold up relatively compactly, you can set them up with one inside pole, which can be cut in sections and sleeved for assembly; also, pyramids, if constructed properly can be hung from a branch, therefore requiring no poles and giving you maximun usable room inside. As far as a tipi, and the poles to set it up, you can get a trailer hitch builder to make a set of racks off the front and rear to carry them in, but with the poles, ropes, outer cover, inner liner, floor and/or rugs, you've got lots to carry. I have found the best arrangement for me is a trailer behind my car, then i can unhook when home and not have to drive a huge car around all the time. On a personal note, after living/sleeping/being in different types of lodges of all styles for the last 4 or 5 years, I would recommend a Panther Lodge without reservation. About the bugs/insects? When you find out, please lemme know, I might actually be able to get my arachnabugaphobic Senora to come to rendezvous. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California and Trapping/hunting Date: 09 Feb 1998 18:30:05 -0800 (PST) On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Ted A Hart wrote: > Didn't know there were still people running hounds after bears still > nowdays. Ted.... I'll email you privately since this has wandered from BP :) Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Lewis & Clark Date: 09 Feb 1998 17:49:39 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3583.17AF6340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did Clark have any children he claimed. I am not being a smart ass. I know he had family. I used to work for Adm Clark who was the commander of the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. Who also claimed relations to Wm. Clark. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Stephen C. Merritt : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Lewis & Clark : Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 9:13 PM : : At 03:07 PM 2/7/98 -0800, you wrote: : >Jim Ellison/Flying Cloud wrote: : > : >> Yes, Donna and I spent the day at the Fort Clatsup this last >summer, : the air gun is no longer on display, we where able to pick >several books : on Clark for our great nephews who are direct >decendentsof Clark. : > : >Greetings Jim, : > : > How completely cool that your great nephews are decendents of Clark. : >How old are they? And do they realize the significance of their lineage? : >What a coup when it comes time to do a report on the Corps of : >Descoverary for history class. Judith and I will look you up at the : >Enumclaw show in March, Keep your powder dry. : > : >Best regards, : > : > : : Run into more Clarks as time goes on!! Clark is my : great-great-great-whatever grandpappy! : : :-) : : : Stephen Merritt : mailto:scmerritt@mindspring.com ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3583.17AF6340 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Did Clark have any children he claimed. = I am not being a smart ass. I know he had family. = I used to work for Adm Clark who was the commander of the Puget = Sound Naval Shipyard. Who also claimed relations to Wm. Clark. = Later Jon T

----------
: From: = Stephen C. Merritt <scmerritt@mindspring.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Lewis & = Clark
: Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 9:13 PM
:
: At 03:07 = PM 2/7/98 -0800, you wrote:
: >Jim Ellison/Flying Cloud = wrote:
: >
: >> Yes, Donna and I spent the day at = the Fort Clatsup this last >summer,
: the air gun is no longer on = display, we where able to pick >several books
: on Clark for our = great nephews who are direct >decendentsof Clark.
: >
: = >Greetings Jim,
: >
: > How completely cool that = your great nephews are decendents of Clark.
: >How old are they? = And do they realize the significance of their lineage?
: >What a = coup when it comes time to do a report on the Corps of
: = >Descoverary for history class. Judith and I will look you up at = the
: >Enumclaw show in March, Keep your powder dry.
: = >
: >Best regards,
: >
: >
:
: Run into more = Clarks as time goes on!! Clark is my
: = great-great-great-whatever grandpappy!
:
: :-)
:
:
: = Stephen Merritt
: mailto:scmerritt@mindspring.com

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Jim or Maryellen Majoros <cats@ncweb.com>
To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com>
= Date:=20 Tuesday, February 03, 1998 4:24 PM
Subject:=20 smallpox

hello,

&nbs= p; = ; =20 Email me back at cats@ncweb.com

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD3651.7647A6A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snowshoes Date: 10 Feb 1998 16:22:15 -0700 Debbi, I'll get back to you on this in a few days after I dig out my resources. One thing. Since you live in Vermont, you may see how close you asre to the Tubbs company. they make mostly the aluminum type now, but still may be in the traditional snowshoe business to a limited extent. If I were within ahundred miles, I's sure try to visit their manufactuing facility and see how the masters do it. Vic >I came across this email and am wondering if you might be able to help >me out. A friend of mines daughter wants to make a pair of snowshoes, >however we are having a difficult time finding any patterns or >instructions. I was wondering if you might be able to forward on any >information. > >802-362-0967 Fax >Debbi Wraga >RR 1 Box 2129 >Pawlet, VT 05761 > >Thanks for your help! > >Debbi > > >Ellis (paladin@agis.ag.net) >Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:03:56 -0400 > > Messages sorted by: [ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ] > Next message: Ellis: "AMM-List: Books for Randy" > Previous message: john and jessica sweet: "AMM-List: Re:" > Maybe in reply to: Ellis: "AMM-List: Snowhoes.." > Next in thread: Ellis: "Re: AMM-List: Snowhoes.." > >At 12:37 PM 8/3/96 -0700, you wrote: >>>Vic, >>> >>>I'd deeply appreciate any help you could provide on the making of the >>>snowshoes. I look forward to reading about your experiences in the >making of >>>snowshoes. >>> >>Sounds like you came to the right place, I'll try your e-mail on >monday. If >>iI can't get through, I snail it over to you. Looks like you'll have >plenty >>of help around. Let us know how it's going when you start. > >Got your package today. Good deal of excellent information on snowshoe >building. Deeply appreciate the help. Please let me know if I can ever >return the favor. I''l let you know how its going with the snowshoes. > >Regards, > >Ellis Delahoy > > Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin #1534 "Aux aliments du pays!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carlson Wagonlit Travel Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 10 Feb 1998 16:02:28 . I then went to RK Lodges. I personally >have 3 of them. They have excellent workmanship and prices. I haven't had >to wait more than 7 or 10 DAYS to have the tent in my hands. They are the >first people I try and deal with. > >Kat Hargus >Owner, Making Time >www.makingtime.com > Kat, Do you have the address/phone/e-mail/internet address to RK Lodges. It's time to buy a new one and I'm shopping around. Thanks. Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho travel@turbonet.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In tents mosquito discussion? Date: 10 Feb 1998 23:14:20 -0500 Ain't gonna touch that remark with a 10 foot center pole... Mouse would kill me if I did... SeanBear >BTW, I'm starting to make a point of putting up our tent--it's most definitely historic women's work!> > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 10 Feb 1998 22:43:54 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3675.5D61B580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roy I am glad you enjoyed my story, I have a lot of fun telling it over the years. The only thing I regret is that I didn't get a picture of it. I haven't seen my friend Jerry that I went with in 25 years but I bet He is telling the story and enjoying it like I have. Later Jon Towns ---------- On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:49:49 EST, you wrote: >Hoy, the net! > >I appreciate all the knowledge you hivernants have shared with this here >pilgrim! Let me hit you up for one more... > >My wife and I go to a week long camp every year with my work. I am afraid I >have no choice in this one! Every body else has "tin tipis" with all the >fixin's... we have a small car. With my love of buckskinning, and two camp >outs or more each year, we are thinking of getting a tipi for it. (We don't >have kids yet but plan to start on that one soon enough!) So here are my >questions: > >What are the best tipis at a good price? > >How can we move them around with a small car? > >And the most important one... HOW DO WE KEEP OUT MOSQUITOS AND OTHER PESTS? > >Your advice is appreciated as usual. I've read a few posts already replying. Jon Towns reply darn near ruptured me. I was in mid-swallow when I read it. Still mopping homebrew out of the keyboard. I have at one time or the other owned a Panther 10x16 wall tent, a 16 ft Nomadics tipi, an 18 ft Blue Star tipi, and currently have a 10 ft diamond (home made), a 12 ft. diamond (Panther) and an 18 ft Panther tipi, along with a 12 ft Panther Hunter's lodge. There are many good brands out there. A friend of mine has had a Spring Valley lodge for 10 years or more. His poles are about shot, but the lodge is still in good shape. Check out C&S Traders also. I don't own any of their merchandice, but have talked to folks who do. There are undoubtedly other good suppliers, but I have no experience with them, one way or the other. For simplicity of hauling for more than one person, I gotta recommend the 12 ft Hunter's lodge. It is extremely roomy for two adullts, and you can get by with one 8-9 foot pole. Two 10 foot poles used externally give you much more usable interior space. But for comfort and prestige (at least in the owner's mind), there's nothing like a tipi. You can build a fire in it to cook, stay warm, has lots of room, and you can get an awful lot of people in there for a party. But for pure practicality, ease of setup, I got to admit that hunter's lodge has everything beat I've tried. If you're set on a tipi, here's my experience, and it's a rather long post I've hauled tipi poles 3 different ways. Pick your medicine. The first was when I had a full size pickup truck with an aluminum capper top. I wouldn't try this with a capper that did not have interior aluminum ribs. A set of poles can run 350 lbs when real wet. I had this set up for canoes, originally. I had two 2x4 running lengthwise along the capper edge for 8 feet. I had 2-3 2x4 running crosswise at the front of the capper, and 1 2x4 crosswise at the back. All this wood was bolted through the metal capper frame in several places to hold it. The trick to this was to pile all the poles together in the middle, wrap the rope around them in the back, pull them into a bundle, and tie them off to both sides in the back. Then I did the same in the front of the capper, and took the excess rope and whipped it about 10 or so times very tightly around the poles from the front of the capper to the tips of the poles to pull them into a bundle. Next step was to retighten the back, and tie it off to the bumper so the poles were just resting on the 2x4 at the front of the capper. Then, go to the front, and tie the bundle to the front bumper straight down while putting some tension on it. That front bundle now acts like a spring pole, with each pole tip reinforcing the others. Never broke a tip this way on the road. Doing all this takes only slightly longer than it has taken me to type it. It's pretty simple (I mean, even I could do it), and I used this method for several years until I got rid of my truck. I upgraded to a third-hand Suburban, but it was the lap of luxury for me. So I found a used boat trailer, and found I could convert it to a bed 12 feet by 6 and a half feet with 3 foot sidewalls, so I took a lot more stuff, and my setup time stretched to some 4-5 hours due to all the stuff, and I got a hernia from loading/unloading it. I was saved from this contraption when returning from the 1991(?) SW in Newnata, Arkansas carrying my tipi, all the gear for 12 people, and two complete blacksmith shops. Twelve miles short of the Texas border, and half way across the Red River bridge, the axle on the trailer snapped. After what seemed to be several years later we finally got the rig stopped and on the side of the road. My partner in crime took the suburban to Texarkana, rented a 12 ft closed U-haul trailer, and we proceeded to load everything into it. I was reconciled to having to leave the poles, since there were no tie points to tie them to on the trailer. It was close to midnight at the time, and both of us had to be at work (some 6 hour drive away) by 8am the next morning. In desperation, I grabbed the 3 foam rubber mattresses, tossed them on top of the Suburban, tossed all the poles in the middle, and wrapped them all together like explained above. I tied the back tightly to the bumper braces on both sides, and did the same to the front. Ya know what? It worked great, and I used this method for poles for several years after. If it doesn't rain, ya can also sleep on the foam. I have a friend who has a short wheelbase full-size Dodge van. He uses heavy duty luggage racks and hauls his poles on these. This works pretty well now that he's figured out how to keep the racks from loosening up on long trips and falling off. Bottom line is you need a new vehicle or trailer for a tipi. Cover, liner and ozan pack up to the size of a grocery cart measured from the wheels to the top of the cart. If you're planning a family, you're gonna need a bigger vehicle or trailer to haul all the baby stuff anyway, even to go visit folks 10 miles away. Trust me on this. The only thing that takes more plunder than rendezvous is a baby. For a weekend, the diamond is my first choice if going alone, and the hunter's lodge if I have company. For a full week, the tipi is well worth the hassle of transporting it and setting it up. And frankly, I think there is absolutely no more wonderful feeling in this world than curling up with and holding the woman you love as you both watch the full moon rise across the smoke flaps. Roy Parker rparker7@ix,netcom.com, Booshway 1998 SouthWest Regional Rendezvous, Inc. Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith, and several other "B's", incuding BS.... SW Rendezvous info at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus ---------- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3675.5D61B580 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Roy I am glad you enjoyed my story, = I have a lot of fun telling it over the years. The only = thing I regret is that I didn't get a picture of it. I = haven't seen my friend Jerry that I went with in 25 years but I bet He = is telling the story and enjoying it like I have. Later Jon Towns =

----------
From: Roy Parker <rparker7@ix.netcom.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi
Date: Monday, = February 09, 1998 10:29 PM

On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:49:49 EST, you = wrote:

>Hoy, the net!
>
>I appreciate all the = knowledge you hivernants have shared with this here
>pilgrim! = Let me hit you up for one more...
>
>My wife and I go = to a week long camp every year with my work. I am afraid = I
>have no choice in this one! Every body else has "tin = tipis" with all the
>fixin's... we have a small car. = With my love of buckskinning, and two camp
>outs or more = each year, we are thinking of getting a tipi for it. (We = don't
>have kids yet but plan to start on that one soon enough!) = So here are my
>questions:
>
>What are the best = tipis at a good price?
>
>How can we move them around with a = small car?
>
>And the most important one... HOW DO WE = KEEP OUT MOSQUITOS AND OTHER PESTS?
>
>Your advice is = appreciated as usual.

I've read a few posts already replying. = Jon Towns reply darn near
ruptured me. I was in = mid-swallow when I read it. Still mopping
homebrew out of the = keyboard.

I have at one time or the other owned a Panther 10x16 = wall tent, a 16
ft Nomadics tipi, an 18 ft Blue Star tipi, and = currently have a 10 ft
diamond (home made), a 12 ft. diamond = (Panther) and an 18 ft Panther
tipi, along with a 12 ft Panther = Hunter's lodge.

There are many good brands out there. = A friend of mine has had a
Spring Valley lodge for 10 years or = more. His poles are about shot,
but the lodge is still in good = shape. Check out C&S Traders also. I
don't own any of = their merchandice, but have talked to folks who do.
There are = undoubtedly other good suppliers, but I have no experience
with them, = one way or the other.

For simplicity of hauling for more than one = person, I gotta recommend
the 12 ft Hunter's lodge. It is = extremely roomy for two adullts, and
you can get by with one = 8-9 foot pole. Two 10 foot poles used
externally give you much = more usable interior space.

But for comfort and prestige = (at least in the owner's mind), there's
nothing like a tipi. = You can build a fire in it to cook, stay warm,
has lots of = room, and you can get an awful lot of people in there for
a party. = But for pure practicality, ease of setup, I got to admit
that = hunter's lodge has everything beat I've tried.

If you're set on a = tipi, here's my experience, and it's a rather long
post I've = hauled tipi poles 3 different ways. Pick your medicine.
The = first was when I had a full size pickup truck with an aluminum
capper = top. I wouldn't try this with a capper that did not = have
interior aluminum ribs. A set of poles can run 350 lbs = when real wet.

I had this set up for canoes, originally. I = had two 2x4 running
lengthwise along the capper edge for 8 feet. = I had 2-3 2x4 running
crosswise at the front of the capper, and = 1 2x4 crosswise at the back.
All this wood was bolted through the = metal capper frame in several
places to hold it.

The trick to = this was to pile all the poles together in the middle,
wrap the rope = around them in the back, pull them into a bundle, and
tie them off to = both sides in the back. Then I did the same in the
front of the = capper, and took the excess rope and whipped it about 10
or so times = very tightly around the poles from the front of the capper
to the = tips of the poles to pull them into a bundle. Next step was = to
retighten the back, and tie it off to the bumper so the poles = were
just resting on the 2x4 at the front of the capper. Then, = go to the
front, and tie the bundle to the front bumper straight down = while
putting some tension on it. That front bundle now acts = like a spring
pole, with each pole tip reinforcing the others. = Never broke a tip
this way on the road. Doing all this = takes only slightly longer than
it has taken me to type it. = It's pretty simple (I mean, even I could
do it), and I used = this method for several years until I got rid of my
truck.

I = upgraded to a third-hand Suburban, but it was the lap of luxury = for
me. So I found a used boat trailer, and found I could = convert it to a
bed 12 feet by 6 and a half feet with 3 foot = sidewalls, so I took a
lot more stuff, and my setup time stretched to = some 4-5 hours due to
all the stuff, and I got a hernia from = loading/unloading it.

I was saved from this contraption when = returning from the 1991(?) SW
in Newnata, Arkansas carrying my tipi, = all the gear for 12 people, and
two complete blacksmith shops. = Twelve miles short of the Texas
border, and half way across the = Red River bridge, the axle on the
trailer snapped. After what = seemed to be several years later we
finally got the rig stopped and = on the side of the road.

My partner in crime took the suburban = to Texarkana, rented a 12 ft
closed U-haul trailer, and we proceeded = to load everything into it. I
was reconciled to having to leave = the poles, since there were no tie
points to tie them to on the = trailer. It was close to midnight at the
time, and both of us = had to be at work (some 6 hour drive away) by 8am
the next = morning.

In desperation, I grabbed the 3 foam rubber mattresses, = tossed them on
top of the Suburban, tossed all the poles in the = middle, and wrapped
them all together like explained above. I = tied the back tightly to
the bumper braces on both sides, and did the = same to the front. Ya
know what? It worked great, and I = used this method for poles for
several years after. If it = doesn't rain, ya can also sleep on the
foam.

I have a friend = who has a short wheelbase full-size Dodge van. He
uses heavy = duty luggage racks and hauls his poles on these. This
works = pretty well now that he's figured out how to keep the racks = from
loosening up on long trips and falling off.

Bottom line = is you need a new vehicle or trailer for a tipi. Cover,
liner = and ozan pack up to the size of a grocery cart measured from = the
wheels to the top of the cart. If you're planning a family, = you're
gonna need a bigger vehicle or trailer to haul all the baby = stuff
anyway, even to go visit folks 10 miles away. Trust me on = this. The
only thing that takes more plunder than rendezvous is = a baby.

For a weekend, the diamond is my first choice if going = alone, and the
hunter's lodge if I have company. For a full = week, the tipi is well
worth the hassle of transporting it and = setting it up.

And frankly, I think there is absolutely no = more wonderful feeling in
this world than curling up with and holding = the woman you love as you
both watch the full moon rise across the = smoke flaps.

Roy Parker rparker7@ix,netcom.com, = Booshway 1998 SouthWest Regional Rendezvous, Inc.
Buckskinner, = Brewer, Blacksmith, and several other "B's", incuding = BS....
SW Rendezvous info at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
----------

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3675.5D61B580-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: fortpit@pconline.com Subject: MtMan-List: Att Matt (RK lodge) Date: 11 Feb 1998 05:37:51 -0600 RK's are the best I have 3 also. They stand by there work. I went to that factory as I live in MN very nice people. I have a Marque, Bellback Wedge, and a very large rev war hospital wedge. Never had a problem with there product.........Ian Capt. Ian Fraser McClinter "SCOTTUS NOBILIS" the ROYAL TRIBE OF JUDAH http://www.pconline.com/~fortpit/ fortpit@pconline.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 11 Feb 1998 06:18:04 -0600 Scott Allen wrote: > > Gary, > > Touchwood is a gray to gray/brown horseshoe shaped fungus that grows > on the side of trees. I've mostly found it on old maple or oak. You > char it as you would cloth. It holds a spark much longer and hotter > than anything else I've seen. > > Your most humble servant, > Scott Allen > Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick > Fairplay, MD > http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT Scott, do you slice it before you char it? Getting to use this has been one of my goals this year, I tried doing one once before, but over chared it and it was very crumbly. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: fortpit@pconline.com Subject: MtMan-List: Att Debbi (snowshoes) Date: 11 Feb 1998 05:31:24 -0600 Dear Debbi: If you ask this fellow real nice, He will help you with any information you may need in the constuction of the snowwalker. He lives on the shores of lake Superior. I think he sleeps with the darn things. He is Part Ojibwa and learned the craft from his elders............Ian Oh yeah His name is pierre Gerard sgtsam@cp.duluth.mn.us Capt. Ian Fraser McClinter "SCOTTUS NOBILIS" the ROYAL TRIBE OF JUDAH http://www.pconline.com/~fortpit/ fortpit@pconline.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snowshoes Date: 11 Feb 1998 06:26:13 -0600 I made a pair of Tubbs snowshoes from a kit, it was a class offered at a local nature center. The kit we did used neoprene webbing, but I believe that they said they made a rawhide kit. Tubbs has a web page at: http://tubbssnowshoes.com/ Hope this helps, btw I was glad I did the class ($90) there are a couple of mistakes in the instructions, having taught the class a number of times, our instructor was aware of them. Jim /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue | \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snowshoes Date: 11 Feb 1998 07:59:33 -0500 Debbi, A good source for instructions is the book "Wildwood Wisdom" by Ellsworth Yeager. Very simple to follow instructions and it should be available in your local library. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Drannan Hoax Date: 11 Feb 1998 08:45:21 -0600 (CST) >>Have you heard of book "thirty one years in the plains and in the >>mountains" by william f. drannon or drannan? I believe it may be a >>hoax. author describes too many instances w/ Kit carson & many >>other coincedences esp.w/ Modoc war which I doubt. >> Yes, it is completely bogus. It is still collectable, however, because it is perhaps the best example of a purely ficticious "autobiography." Drannan had it printed in large quantities and personally marketed it. You can still find them in abundance. I think I paid 5.00 for mine about 12 years ago in a Milwaukee used book store. Don't get me wrong. It's an entertaining read as far as fiction goes, but don't believe a word of it. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 11 Feb 1998 10:22:35 -0500 Jim wrote: Scott, do you slice it before you char it? Getting to use this has been one of my goals this year, I tried doing one once before, but over chared it and it was very crumbly. Jim, Sounds like you may have charred it too long.I gather this stuff when it is small and have never sliced it, just threw it in my char tin along with any punkwood or cloth to char. Never had a problem. Watch your tin for flame and put it out immediately if flames are coming out the air hole. Watch for puffs of smoke indicating it is done, pull out of the fire, plug the hole, and let sit until cool enough to handle barehanded. This will insure you don't open it too quickly and cause the char to burn up. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Philip Huvler Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flashguards Date: 11 Feb 1998 10:59:57 -0500 (EST) At 05:46 PM 1/19/98 EST, you wrote: >How....the list, > I'm headed up to the "Rain de voo" in Olympia, WA next month and I'm trying >to fit a flashguard to my smoothbore. The lock is a "Tulle" type and has an >unbridled frizzen....so the guard just goes under the screw that the frizzen >rotates on......if I tighten it up, it goes up and down with the frizzen. Is >this correct? .. or should it remain in a fixed postion. If I tighten the >screw down, the frizzen will not flip up! Bumming me out....... >On my rifle, ( it has a large Siler) I've got a long screw and nut (it's got >a bridle) so not a problem.....and the flashguard remains fixed. >Steve >I pinned mine to the pan 2 little copper pins hold it > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Buesing Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In tents mosquito discussion? Date: 11 Feb 1998 09:06:12 -0700 Here's a web site for marquee and pyramid plus many other types. Can't vouch for them, just looks interesting. www2.strinz.com/tipi/ Tom B. Angela Gottfred wrote: > I > haven't found any documentation for marquees or pyramid tents for my area > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J2HEARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In tents mosquito discussion? Date: 11 Feb 1998 11:43:55 EST Angela, I have on occasions used the silk hankerchief I ware around my neck to lay over my face when mosquitos have become unbearable at night. It works to some degree but the critters have little problem "biting" right through it if they so choose. I suspect the silk hankerchiefs worn by the old ones were used for similiar things. John Funk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Philip Huvler Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 11 Feb 1998 10:10:27 -0500 (EST) >I have a 18'tipi with 27' poles I used drive to all the events in my Renault Alliance. the car suffered none from hauling this load and it was fun watching the police shuffling through their lawbooks trying to find a reason to stop me:) panther primitive as always been good to me and they stand behind what they sell Philip ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 11 Feb 1998 14:11:25 -0600 Scott Allen wrote: > > Sounds like you may have charred it too long.I gather this stuff when > it is small and have never sliced it, just threw it in my char tin > along with any punkwood or cloth to char. Never had a problem. Watch > your tin for flame and put it out immediately if flames are coming > out the air hole. Watch for puffs of smoke indicating it is done, > pull out of the fire, plug the hole, and let sit until cool enough to > handle barehanded. This will insure you don't open it too quickly and > cause the char to burn up. > > Your most humble servant, > Scott Allen > Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick > Fairplay, MD > http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT When starting a fire, would you use a whole "small" shelve mushroom (that's what I call them)? Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "L. A. Romsa" Subject: MtMan-List: BrokenJaw Date: 11 Feb 1998 13:31:50 -0700 Hey Caw, I replied to your smoke signal,, but I'm having=20 trouble with this server thingie. Did you receive my response? L.A.(BrokenJaw) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Windhams" Date: 12 Feb 1998 14:58:26 -0800 Don't remember who it was asking about snow shoes, but it sent me looking in all my books , knew I'd seen them things some where. there's a book by W. ben Hunt : called the complete how-to book of Indiancraft published by collier Books. on page#127 there are plans for building snow shoes, you'll have to blow the plans , unless you can read fine print, myself it would take 5 pairs of glasses to read. Good luck Rick http://www.ptw.com/~lazttanze/home/blackhawk/html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In tents mosquito discussion? Date: 11 Feb 1998 15:25:45 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3701.526FDE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit back in the mid 80's held some type of nationals near the Grand Coolie Dam in eastern Washington they call it Old Dusty but the deer flies and mosquitoes were real bad. So my son Pete rubbed garlic cloves on our skin and the bugs stayed away. Later Jon T ---------- : From: J2HEARTS@aol.com : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In tents mosquito discussion? : Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 8:43 AM : : Angela, : : I have on occasions used the silk hankerchief I ware around my neck to lay : over my face when mosquitos have become unbearable at night. It works to some : degree but the critters have little problem "biting" right through it if they : so choose. I suspect the silk hankerchiefs worn by the old ones were used for : similiar things. : : John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3701.526FDE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

back in the mid 80's held some type of = nationals near the Grand Coolie Dam in eastern Washington they call it = Old Dusty but the deer flies and mosquitoes were real bad. So my = son Pete rubbed garlic cloves on our skin and the bugs stayed away. = Later Jon T

----------
: From: J2HEARTS@aol.com
: = color=3D"#000000">
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In tents mosquito = discussion?
: Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 8:43 AM
:
: = Angela,
:
: I have on occasions used the silk hankerchief I = ware around my neck to lay
: over my face when mosquitos have become = unbearable at night. It works to some
: degree but the critters = have little problem "biting" right through it if they
: so = choose. I suspect the silk hankerchiefs worn by the old ones were = used for
: similiar things.
:
: John Funk

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3701.526FDE40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SAGERIDER1 Subject: MtMan-List: HIGH PLAINS Date: 11 Feb 1998 20:59:38 -0600 kat wrote: > > I am not bad mouthing Panther by any stretch. They have a wonderful > catalog. However -- I tried on two different occasions to order lodges from > them. Very basic off the shelf pieces. I was told a minimum of 16 WEEKS > before they could ship the first time, and a minimum of 12 WEEKS the second > time I tried to order from them. I then went to RK Lodges. I personally > have 3 of them. They have excellent workmanship and prices. I haven't had > to wait more than 7 or 10 DAYS to have the tent in my hands. They are the > first people I try and deal with. > > Kat Hargus > Owner, Making Time > www.makingtime.com > > Name: WINMAIL.DAT > Part 1.2 Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream) > Encoding: x-uuencode HELLO EVERYONE!! I am the booshway for the 1998 High Plains Regional Rendezvous being held in Brainerd, MN this summer. I would like to invite all of you and your families to this 1st ever event for MN!! Please check out the High Plains web page at: http://pages.prodigy.com/cedarcreekoutfitters/hp1998.htm I hope to see you all there......... Little Crow ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Date: 11 Feb 1998 21:38:45 EST Mr Newbill, Your e-mail name didn't work. Could you try to e-mail me direct? Thanks. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: darlene Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 11 Feb 1998 22:32:14 -0500 maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are & besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has been doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types of lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my wife & i. if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya a cold 1. shootshimselfAt 06:59 PM 2/9/98 PST, you wrote: >Before you buy a tipi look at a medium sized tallboy pryamid tent. You >can put it up with one pole in the center, two poles outside set up as >shears or with no poles at all by tying it to a convenient overhanging >limb. Plus you can actually transport one in a small car. You might stuff >a tipi cover, liner and ozan into a small car but I want to see where you >carry a couple of dozen poles. Good luck, one way or the other. > >Lanney Ratcliff >rat@htcomp.net >------- >> Hoy, the net! >> >> I appreciate all the knowledge you hivernants have shared with this here >> pilgrim! Let me hit you up for one more... >> >> My wife and I go to a week long camp every year with my work. I am >afraid I >> have no choice in this one! Every body else has "tin tipis" with all the >> fixin's... we have a small car. With my love of buckskinning, and two >camp >> outs or more each year, we are thinking of getting a tipi for it. (We >don't >> have kids yet but plan to start on that one soon enough!) So here are my >> questions: >> >> What are the best tipis at a good price? >> >> How can we move them around with a small car? >> >> And the most important one... HOW DO WE KEEP OUT MOSQUITOS AND OTHER >PESTS? >> >> Your advice is appreciated as usual. >> >> Thanks, >> >> John Fleming >> Detroit, Michigan >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: darlene Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 11 Feb 1998 22:44:41 -0500 At 11:34 AM 2/10/98 -0500, you wrote: hello the camp there are several types of this fungus that grow,here in central ohio we have what is known as shelf fungus & it works great fot touch wood,also punky type oak or maple work great for this also.just remember to char it out doors as it really stinks when charring. shootshimself >Gary, > >Touchwood is a gray to gray/brown horseshoe shaped fungus that grows >on the side of trees. I've mostly found it on old maple or oak. You >char it as you would cloth. It holds a spark much longer and hotter >than anything else I've seen. > > >Your most humble servant, >Scott Allen >Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick >Fairplay, MD >http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snowshoes Date: 11 Feb 1998 19:58:04 -0800 Todd and Debbi Wraga wrote: > > I came across this email and am wondering if you might be able to help > me out. A friend of mines daughter wants to make a pair of snowshoes, > however we are having a difficult time finding any patterns or > instructions. I was wondering if you might be able to forward on any > information. > > 802-362-0967 Fax > Debbi Wraga > RR 1 Box 2129 > Pawlet, VT 05761 Greetings Todd & Debbi The Complete How-To Book Of Indiancraft by W. Ben Hunt has info on some different types of snowshoes on pages 124-127. If you are unable to find the book, I'll be glad to copy the pages and send them to you. Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 12 Feb 1998 01:58:36 -0500 by the MSG that you were writing i think i must have missed something in the translation. if you are trying to make char cloth then it is quite simple. the only real problem is that you must use pure cotton or linnon. best method that i have found is to use a percussion cap box if you only want to make a small amount or a metal bandade box if you want a larger amount. best materials that i have found are old tea shirts, old towels, or old automotive grease rags. whatever you are using it must be clean. cut it into squares and pack in the metal container not over tight. the contaner should have a hole in it from a small finishing nail. place the container in the coles of your fire or in a barbicue pit. let it cook until it stops smokeing then take it out of the fire. plug the hole and let cool(CAUTION) dont open for at least 1 hr). the cloth should be very dark almost like charecole with it totally black. do not put your fingers on the char prior to using. only take out what you need and close up the contaner when not in use. i normally plug the vent hole so that it will not draw moisture. the best nest i have found is made from fine hemp thread totally unraveled and rolled in your hands to make it bunch up. it will ignite better if you put it in the oven and cook it for a while to get the moisture out of it. then place it in a bandaid box . i have built a many of a blaze in less than 10 seconds using this method. you must also have a good rock and a good steel-- i guard mine with my life and they are always in my shooting bag in my firebox. i always think one strike and one blow. when making my fires. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 e-mail:hawknest4@juno.com On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:11:25 -0600 Jim Lindberg writes: >Scott Allen wrote: > >> >> Sounds like you may have charred it too long.I gather this stuff >when >> it is small and have never sliced it, just threw it in my char tin >> along with any punkwood or cloth to char. Never had a problem. Watch >> your tin for flame and put it out immediately if flames are coming >> out the air hole. Watch for puffs of smoke indicating it is done, >> pull out of the fire, plug the hole, and let sit until cool enough >to >> handle barehanded. This will insure you don't open it too quickly >and >> cause the char to burn up. >> >> Your most humble servant, >> Scott Allen >> Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick >> Fairplay, MD >> http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT > >When starting a fire, would you use a whole "small" shelve mushroom >(that's what I call them)? > >Jim > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 12 Feb 1998 07:45:38 -0500 Jim wrote: When starting a fire, would you use a whole "small" shelve mushroom (that's what I call them)? Jim, I don't know if these are the same as your standard "shelf fungus". They are very small and yes, I use the whole thing. I usually have several in my tin and just strike spark into it (flint downward to steel instead of vice versa) until I get a glow on one. I take that one out and close the lid tightly to extinguish any others in the tin. From there it is just like using char cloth except you get a better and hotter coal from touchwood. Good luck! Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 12 Feb 1998 10:24:57 -0500 Michael wrote: by the MSG that you were writing i think i must have missed something in the translation. if you are trying to make char cloth then it is quite simple. Michael, Yes you did miss alittle. We were discussing alternatives to char cloth. Most of us are under the opinion that they didn't carry cloth to char, but used natural materials. Touchwood is one of the best I've found and there are many references to it in hisorical documents. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Spencer Subject: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 12 Feb 1998 08:02:49 -0800 Hello the List, There have been several messages concerning the best material for char cloth. It's important to note that all natural fiber fabric manufacturered in the U.S. is treated with a fire retardant by law. This fire retardant also makes your char harder to light. My favorite is raw cotton right off the plant, seeds and all. It will catch the smallest spark and burn better and hotter than any material I have ever seen. NO ONE who has used it has ever gone back to what they used before. Richard Spencer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 12 Feb 1998 14:28:21 -0600 (CST) >Hello the List, > >There have been several messages concerning the best material for char >cloth. It's important to note that all natural fiber fabric >manufacturered in the U.S. is treated with a fire retardant by law. This >fire retardant also makes your char harder to light. My favorite is raw >cotton right off the plant, seeds and all. It will catch the smallest >spark and burn better and hotter than any material I have ever seen. NO >ONE who has used it has ever gone back to what they used before. > >Richard Spencer I've been using unbleached muslin from the cloth store for years. By definition it is 100% cotton. I don't think it's treated. Even if it is, it still makes a great charcloth. It's also very cheap, at a couple o' bucks for a 60" yard. That'll keep you in charcloth for quite a spell. Since this is cotton country, the raw stuff is easy to get. Just drive down the road during the harvest and it's all over the place. It spills out of the trucks because they pack it VERY full. The best time to get it is October. That's peak harvest time around here, and the gins are running 24-7. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 12 Feb 1998 17:02:37 -0500 thanks for your input i guess i was a wondering child in the wilderness I do agree with you. I have made and used touchwood several times it works super, but i have never called it touchwood only char. I have read about touchwood in several journels but have always considered it as basic char, and i have used many different things to catch the spark and start a fire i guess from my ignorance. on one ocasionin the military i even used steel wool and a spark to get a fire started. when i was a kid there was an old man that came from oregon that setteled in my home town and was probably the first person that i ever saw that shot a muzzleloader and he always carried a fire box in his shooting bag. He never carried matches . he made his char from this moss groath that i speak of but never used the term touchwood. he was able to start a fire in almost any weather and that is who i learned from. when i knew him he was in his 80's and that was around 1950. he always carried a bunch of hemp tow which grew wild on his place and used that for his nest and to clean his rifle with. we got to be very good friends and he and i hunted and fished a lot together . i have never forgot a lot of the woods smarts lessons the man gave me. these lessons helped me a lot when i was in the military. He gave me one of his rifles which i still have today, and it still shoots as true as the day he gave it to me. I guess in different parts of the country there are many things that you can make char or touchwood from. i was raised in arkansas and there is a moss groath that i have used that works quite well. you still have to chare it in the same way as charcloth to get it to work well. it has been my experience that yes it will be a hotter starter but seems a little more difficult to get to catch the spark. thanks for your return comments keep your nose to the wind and your eyes along the skyline. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:24:57 -0500 "Scott Allen" writes: >Michael wrote: >by the MSG that you were writing i think i must have missed something >in >the translation. > >if you are trying to make char cloth then it is quite simple. > >Michael, > >Yes you did miss alittle. We were discussing alternatives to char >cloth. Most of us are under the opinion that they didn't carry cloth >to char, but used natural materials. Touchwood is one of the best >I've found and there are many references to it in hisorical >documents. > > >Your most humble servant, >Scott Allen >Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick >Fairplay, MD >http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 12 Feb 1998 17:57:47 PST In my 1910 copy of Francis Parkman's book "The Oregon Trail" Parkman describes the pyramid tent he took to the mountains in 1846. That was good enough for me. You also might request a back copy of the spring 1980 issue of the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly and read "Some Notes on Tents of the Western Fur Trade" written by Charles Hanson. If I run across more information I will forward it. This tent style is commonly held to be authentic but if you don't like their looks then it is probably not for you. I also thought they looked like crap until I saw a tent with an extra tall peak. The looks were improved and the actual living space inside was much better. I am six feet six inches tall and the increased living space was a major consederation for me. Plus, they can be put up in a fraction of the time required of other tents. I applaud your interest in autheticity and wish those who use Bakers and Whelens shared your need to be "right". Too many rendezvous tend to be nothing more that halloween weenie roasts, anyway. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net --------- > maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know > of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are & > besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has been > doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has > been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. > > this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i > step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types of > lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my wife > & i. > > if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask > where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya a > cold 1. > > shootshimselfAt 06:59 PM 2/9/98 PST, you wrote: > >Before you buy a tipi look at a medium sized tallboy pryamid tent. You > >can put it up with one pole in the center, two poles outside set up as > >shears or with no poles at all by tying it to a convenient overhanging > >limb. Plus you can actually transport one in a small car. You might stuff > >a tipi cover, liner and ozan into a small car but I want to see where you > >carry a couple of dozen poles. Good luck, one way or the other. > > > >Lanney Ratcliff > >rat@htcomp.net > >------- > >> Hoy, the net! > >> > >> I appreciate all the knowledge you hivernants have shared with this here > >> pilgrim! Let me hit you up for one more... > >> > >> My wife and I go to a week long camp every year with my work. I am > >afraid I > >> have no choice in this one! Every body else has "tin tipis" with all the > >> fixin's... we have a small car. With my love of buckskinning, and two > >camp > >> outs or more each year, we are thinking of getting a tipi for it. (We > >don't > >> have kids yet but plan to start on that one soon enough!) So here are my > >> questions: > >> > >> What are the best tipis at a good price? > >> > >> How can we move them around with a small car? > >> > >> And the most important one... HOW DO WE KEEP OUT MOSQUITOS AND OTHER > >PESTS? > >> > >> Your advice is appreciated as usual. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> John Fleming > >> Detroit, Michigan > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snowshoes Date: 12 Feb 1998 18:16:17 -0600 At 09:58 PM 2/11/98 , tigrbo1 wrote: >Todd and Debbi Wraga wrote: >> >> I came across this email and am wondering if you might be able to help >> me out. A friend of mines daughter wants to make a pair of snowshoes, >> however we are having a difficult time finding any patterns or >> instructions. I was wondering if you might be able to forward on any >> information. >> >> 802-362-0967 Fax >> Debbi Wraga >> RR 1 Box 2129 >> Pawlet, VT 05761 > Todd & Debbi, The best instruction I've found for proper manufacture of snowshoes; the old way; is in "The Boy Mechanic", Book 2 of 4, "1000 Things For Boys To Do", pgs. 35 to 40 & 43 to 46. Copyright 1915 by H.H. Windsor, Popular Mechanics Press, Chicago. Many interesting comments are included one warns: "No Indian maker would be guilty of using screws of other metal fastenings, but many of the cheap and poorly fashioned snowshoes are fastened at the heel with screws, thus making this a decidedly weak point, since the wood is quite certain to split after a little rough service." It suggests well seasoned ash as the preferred wood for frames with tightly mortised and tenoned joints. It discusses using fine mesh shoes on powder and open mesh on wet snow. Large shoes for cross country (like Alaskan pattern), Style like Michigan pattern for all around use, Bearpaws for woods travel, best on packed snow. It warns about too much lift (turn-up) at the toe, and discusses narrow vs. wide toes. Full instruction for cutting, bending and weaving are included. It also suggests that though Varnish makes the shoes a little more waterproof; the additional slipping hazard on rocks and logs; makes it less than an ideal treatment. It repeatedly refers to Indian made snowshoes as superior to those made in factories. It offers instruction for both the early single knotted thong foot attachment as well as for a leather binding. It notes snowshoes should not be used with heavy leather boots as they will wear out and chafe the filling. It recommends high-cut moccasins large enough to accommodate one or two pairs of wool socks. I have encountered several copies over the years at used book dealers. Book 2 is the best of the series and the most common I've encountered. I used to have a spare copy, may have traded it off, I'll look through my piles. Don't hold your breath. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Early Games Date: 12 Feb 1998 18:39:34 -0600 To the List:

The following is a request I received through participation in the on-line version of the game Oregon Trail II for school classrooms around the country. The question comes from one of the classes participating. I have requested additional details such as: what primary source?

John...

begin quote...
____________________________________________________________________________= ___

Another Wagon from our building asked this question in the discussion
area, but no one has responded. Do you have any ideas where we could find
out, if you don't know already?
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
Title: A game known as dare ball
Message:
We read in a primary source journal of a game played by the children
known as dare ball? Does anyone know how the game was played?

Thank You!
__________________________________________
_________________________________
end quote...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 12 Feb 1998 19:10:25 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD37E9.DF8B5500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Darlene you asked about time frame of the pyramid type tent or miners tent 1848 is as early as I can get it. The voyager's tent put out by Panther Primitive. 1985or6 found that out from an old Blackpowder report add. I wrote an article on primitive tents . I'll look it up and scan it and send it out e-mail. Later Jon T ---------- : From: darlene : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi : Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 7:32 PM : : maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know : of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are & : besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has been : doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has : been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. : : this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i : step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types of : lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my wife : & i. : : if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask : where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya a : cold 1. : : shootshimselfAt 06:59 PM 2/9/98 PST, you wrote: : >Before you buy a tipi look at a medium sized tallboy pryamid tent. You : >can put it up with one pole in the center, two poles outside set up as : >shears or with no poles at all by tying it to a convenient overhanging : >limb. Plus you can actually transport one in a small car. You might stuff : >a tipi cover, liner and ozan into a small car but I want to see where you : >carry a couple of dozen poles. Good luck, one way or the other. : > : >Lanney Ratcliff : >rat@htcomp.net : >------- : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD37E9.DF8B5500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Darlene you asked about time frame of = the pyramid type tent or miners tent 1848 is as early as I can get = it. The voyager's tent put out by Panther Primitive. 1985or6 = found that out from an old Blackpowder report add. I wrote an = article on primitive tents . I'll look it up and scan it and send = it out e-mail. Later Jon T

----------
: From: = darlene <darlene@sssnet.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi
: Date: = Wednesday, February 11, 1998 7:32 PM
:
: maybe you can do all = this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know
: of any = documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are = &
: besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my = family has been
: doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & = as of this day no one has
: been able to document these lodges to my = knoledge.
:
: this is the first time i have responded to anything = on this site & if i
: step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have = had several different types of
: lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a = 15x21 marque which is now just my wife
: & i.
:
: if ya = ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & = ask
: where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& = i might offer ya a
: cold 1.
:
: = &= nbsp; &n= bsp; shootshimselfAt 06:59 PM 2/9/98 PST, you wrote:
: = >Before you buy a tipi look at a medium sized tallboy pryamid tent. = You
: >can put it up with one pole in the center, two = poles outside set up as
: >shears or with no poles at all by tying = it to a convenient overhanging
: >limb. Plus you can = actually transport one in a small car. You might stuff
: >a = tipi cover, liner and ozan into a small car but I want to see where = you
: >carry a couple of dozen poles. Good luck, one way or = the other.
: >
: >Lanney Ratcliff
: >rat@htcomp.net
: = >-------
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD37E9.DF8B5500-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snowshoes Date: 12 Feb 1998 22:10:09 -0700 The information John has shared supports what is available in some still-in-print books that may be easier to get your hands on. The absolute Cadillac of snowshoe making books, is Henri Vaillancourt's, Making the Attikamek Showshoe. The easiest way to get the book is to order it from The Trust for Native American Cultures and Crafts, Box 142, Greenville, NH 03048. The Trust will also sell you ($200) or rent($40) you a video on making the beavertail snowshoe. The book gives detailed instructions with photographs on how to make traditional Indian winter moccassins and duffle socks. Henri is about as hard core as a person can be doing things 100 percent tradition -- see John McPhee's, Survival of the Birchbark Canoe, which captures Henri's dedication to traditional arts and crafts. The VW of books is Building Snowshoes, by Gil Gilpatrick. You can buy it online from the Boundary Waters Company, in Ely, Minnesota. If you really want to understand the philosophy of different patterns, E. Kreps, Camp and Trail Methods(copyright 1910), still available through Fur, Fish, and Game Magazine is a must read. This book also covers winter mocs and blanket socks. If you're still hungry for more, order the reproduction of the historic 1954 Faber Company Snowshoe Catalog from Craid McDonald, R.R. #1 Dwight, Ontario, Canada POA 1HO. The catalog is an education in itself. The Snow Walkers Companion, by the Conovers, is the best modern treatment on tradition winter travel with snowshoes. Amazon.com will be happy to sell it to you. The methods it describes are post rendezvous period, but some things probably overlap the pre-1840 period of the fur trade. It's a gem. -----Original Message----- >At 09:58 PM 2/11/98 , tigrbo1 wrote: >>Todd and Debbi Wraga wrote: >>> >>> I came across this email and am wondering if you might be able to help >>> me out. A friend of mines daughter wants to make a pair of snowshoes, >>> however we are having a difficult time finding any patterns or >>> instructions. I was wondering if you might be able to forward on any >>> information. >>> >>> 802-362-0967 Fax >>> Debbi Wraga >>> RR 1 Box 2129 >>> Pawlet, VT 05761 >> >Todd & Debbi, > >The best instruction I've found for proper manufacture of snowshoes; the >old way; is in "The Boy Mechanic", Book 2 of 4, "1000 Things For Boys To >Do", pgs. 35 to 40 & 43 to 46. Copyright 1915 by H.H. Windsor, Popular >Mechanics Press, Chicago. > >Many interesting comments are included one warns: "No Indian maker would >be guilty of using screws of other metal fastenings, but many of the cheap >and poorly fashioned snowshoes are fastened at the heel with screws, thus >making this a decidedly weak point, since the wood is quite certain to >split after a little rough service." > >It suggests well seasoned ash as the preferred wood for frames with tightly >mortised and tenoned joints. It discusses using fine mesh shoes on powder >and open mesh on wet snow. Large shoes for cross country (like Alaskan >pattern), Style like Michigan pattern for all around use, Bearpaws for >woods travel, best on packed snow. It warns about too much lift (turn-up) >at the toe, and discusses narrow vs. wide toes. Full instruction for >cutting, bending and weaving are included. > >It also suggests that though Varnish makes the shoes a little more >waterproof; the additional slipping hazard on rocks and logs; makes it less >than an ideal treatment. It repeatedly refers to Indian made snowshoes as >superior to those made in factories. > >It offers instruction for both the early single knotted thong foot >attachment as well as for a leather binding. It notes snowshoes should not >be used with heavy leather boots as they will wear out and chafe the >filling. It recommends high-cut moccasins large enough to accommodate one >or two pairs of wool socks. > >I have encountered several copies over the years at used book dealers. >Book 2 is the best of the series and the most common I've encountered. I >used to have a spare copy, may have traded it off, I'll look through my >piles. Don't hold your breath. > >John... >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer >kramer@kramerize.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: MtMan-List: Two booklets Date: 12 Feb 1998 22:11:57 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3803.3BA57B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few years ago I wrote two booklets, one on Tanning Hides and Wild game recipes. They have about a dozen pages each. $3.50 each or $6.00 for two post paid. This is to raise money for operations of the AMM Library. Send Check to Jon Towns. Jon Towns Chief Librarian P.O. Box 143 Manchester WA 98353 ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3803.3BA57B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A few years ago I wrote two booklets, = one on Tanning Hides and Wild game recipes. They have about a = dozen pages each. $3.50 each or $6.00 for two post paid. = This is to raise money for operations of the AMM Library. = Send Check to Jon Towns.
Jon Towns Chief = Librarian
P.O. Box 143
Manchester WA 98353

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3803.3BA57B40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 13 Feb 1998 06:34:21 GMT On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:43:54 -0800, you wrote: >Roy I am glad you enjoyed my story, I have a lot of fun telling it over >the years. The only thing I regret is that I didn't get a picture of = it. =20 >I haven't seen my friend Jerry that I went with in 25 years but I bet He= is >telling the story and enjoying it like I have. Later Jon Towns =20 Well, I finally stopped wheezing and the keyboard dried out by itself. Next time post a warning. No drinking anything while reading the following lines, or something like that. Reminds me of the time a buddy and I tossed an 18 ft. Grumman canoe on top of his VW, put all our gear inside, and headed off to the Boundry Waters for a two week canoe trip. The word "crowded" was coined to describe the interior of that Bug. We'd put our foam bedding on the luggge rack to cushion the canoe, and about half way across Wisconsin got pulled over by a cop for 'impersonating a weiner'...kid you not! =20 Evidently the tan foam we had under the canoe was flopping up along the side the canoe when we drove past his speed trap, he got to laughing and he couldn't resist pulling us over to tell the story. =20 Scared the s**t out of us since we were both in our very early 20's and neither of us were buckskinners at the time, and so had no experience confronting the forces of The Law. For a few minutes there we really did think we were going to go to a Wisconsin jail for violating some obscure law. We did share a laugh with the cop when he finally let us go, but frankly, it took some several years before we really thought it was funny. Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 13 Feb 1998 06:34:20 GMT On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:10:27 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >>I have a 18'tipi with 27' poles I used drive to all the events in my >Renault Alliance. the car suffered none from hauling this load and it = was >fun watching the police shuffling through their lawbooks trying to find = a >reason to stop me:) panther primitive as always been good to me and they >stand behind what they sell >Philip > I just love stopping for gas, lunch or whatever, and watching the locals eyeball all them poles and trying to come up with a reason why I'm carrying them. Most of them are too polite or shy to ask, but every once in a while, someone does, and I give them an honest answer. To all the others, I say nothing until just getting back in the truck, then I look at them real serious like, and say something like, "New fishing technique....Heard the bream (bluegills for you up North) are running, and I intend to catch me a passel of them." If you watch them in the rearview mirror, you can immediately see them glance back and forth, debate your sanity, and even wonder about what you know that they don't. I pulled this gag a couple of years ago in midday, went to lunch, then drove back to the same gas station to pick up something. When I returned I was swamped by a few locals trying to figure out my new fishing technique. Flatlanders is FUN! Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: MtMan-List: Flint, Steel and Char Cloth Date: 13 Feb 1998 06:34:11 GMT Several people have asked for this information recently. The following is a reprint of an article I posted in early October. The finished article was lost in a hard disk crash around Thanksgiving, and I have not recreated it. This is based on several years of experience, and an exchange on the Usenet group soc.history.living with several folks who also frequent this mailing list. Scott, see if you can find your own words in this! I'm sorry, but the article is NOT complete. If you've never made a flint and steel fire before, here's the gist of it. The following is a DRAFT copy. The actual article is only about half done. I=92m retaining the copyright for this article, since I hope to have it published for profit and make millions of dollars when Steven Spielberg turns this into a major movie.. The final article had all the contributors listed. I don't have them here, but pulled all the 1996-1997 exchanges off of Deja News by doing a search for "fire starting". When I rewrite this, full credit to all contributors will be given, especially for the info on charwood. The article needs a lot of wordsmithing. I have not done much except spell check it, so it is obviously not ready to go yet. =20 ---------------------------- There=92s a lot of ways to start fires. I=92m going to cover techniques I=92ve used off and on over the last 19 years. I=92ll also cover a few techniques that I do NOT have a lot of experience with, but other folks do I=92ll be straight with you when I report on something someone else recommends, but I=92ve only experimented with. If I don=92t like = the method, I=92ll tell you, but understand it may be because I don=92t have the technique down due to enough experimentation. Try it yourself. =20 We=92re going to cover charcloth making, striker selection, flint selection, proper tinder and then tie all this together into proper flint and steel firestarting. Char is usually made from cloth, but several people I corresponded with have used different natural materials. This will be covered later on. We=92ll also cover how to select and use a firebow, how to use your shootin=92 iron as a fire starter, char wood making and use, the burning lens (aka magnifying glass), and we=92ll end it with what I diplomatically call =93shortcut=94 (others may call it cheating) techniques some scum-sucking weasles use to get an edge on the competition, just so you have an idea of what to look out for. Charcloth Making =46orget all the stuff they told you in Boy Scouts about using dryer lint, picking up a rock and striking sparks, or rubbing two sticks together. It=92s hogwash. If you follow the recommendations in this article, make a batch or two of charcloth so you can see what is =93good=94 versus =93bad=94 select a flint as described, and have a good striker, you=92ll have flame in less than 15 seconds almost every time you try. My personal best at fire starting is 8.1 seconds, and that took third place.=20 Char is important because you need some material that will catch the sparks from your striker. You can have a marvelous striker and flint, and chuck sparks into dryer lint until the cows come home. And they come home about the time you have a spark catch in the dryer lint. =20 The reason you char cloth is to essentially turn it into pure carbon, kinda like a super charcoal briquette. You want a material that chars well, and has a lot of surface roughness to hold the spark from the striker until it can ignite the cloth. Dryer lint, et. al, has a much higher combustion temperature to keep a coal glowing than does char cloth. That=92s why it is so hard to start a fire this way. Good char cloth will grab a spark as soon as it hits. Start with 100 percent cotton or linen fabric. Make absolutely sure there are no synthetics. These will melt and burn and leave a fire-proof coating over what remains of the fabric. It also makes an awful mess of your char tin. Wool has its own fire retardant. Lore has it that you can=92t make char cloth out of wool, and I always believed it until I sat down to write these lines. I=92ve always accepted that wool won=92t work, but you know, I have never tired it. I will have to take a shot at it next time I make up a batch of char. I=92ve heard that using cloth with patterns makes inferior char cloth. In my experience, it doesn=92t seem to matter. New fabric such as left overs from shirt making need to be washed several times before you char them. Most material like this contains a something called a sizing, which is fine clay impregnated in the cloth to make it smoother and easier to cut for patterns. You can make char cloth from it, but the sizing leaves a bit more ash in the tin, and sometimes keeps a spark for catching as it seems to have to burn through the sizing first. Pure canvas from the sewing store works pretty good after being well washed. Flannel works well too if you make sure you do NOT get the flame-retardant kind. All of these things will work. To make char cloth you can=92t put out without water, you have to use a special type of cloth. Forget about blue jeans, cotton scraps, flannel, canvas, etc. The best stuff I have ever found for char cloth is called Monk's Cloth (available at almost any sewing center, at least here in Texas). It has 5-9 threads in the warp and the woof (?) (these are sewing terms I really don't understand, but it means the top layer weaves in and out of the bottom layer {going sideways of course} kinda like the plastic webbing you have on your aluminum framed lawn chairs, except this is all cotton, and is a lot thinner weave. Monks cloth looks a lot like a coarser weave of the gauze you=92d find in a first aid kit. For those of you who are wondering, I=92ve tried using gauze for char also. It crumbles too easily compared to the Monk=92s cloth for my taste, but catches a spark immediately. If I ever get access to a scanner, I=92ll upload a picture to the web. How do you make char cloth? Easy. Get some 100% linen or cotton, or if you=92ve been paying attention, get some Monk=92s cloth ( wash it once or twice first-a yard of this stuff will start hundreds of fires), cut it up into about inch and a half squares, no larger. When you have a decent handful of pieces, put them in your char tin. I fill my tin (one of the old, large shoe polish tins) so that the pile sticks out about three-eighths of an inch before putting the lid on. This compresses the cloth a little, but I=92ve never noticed a problem . If you really stuff the tin full, you=92ll find a lot of the material in the center is not properly charred. A little compression is ok, a lot is bad. A char tin is nothing more than a small metal can that has a tight fitting metal lid. A shoe polish tin or a pint paint can works great. The pint paint can doubles as a container when making char wood. We=92ll cover that later. Clean out all residue from the previous inhabitant of the can before your start. The real secret is to have a very tight fitting lid, and to close it down tight after you put in the cloth. Next, take a small nail, about a one inch finishing nail and poke a hole in the lid. =20 Now, find a small twig and sharpen it until it plugs the hole you just punched in the top as tight as can be. Set the twig aside, as you won=92t need it for a while. Now toss the can, lid up on the fire. I=92ve tried a bunch of different fires. Some work and some don=92t and = I don=92t know why. Campfires seem to make the best char cloth. Set it on the edge of the coals, and plan 2-5 minutes a side for cooking. Good charcoal fires work about the same. I=92ve tried this numerous times on my propane grill in the backyard, and on my coal forge, at both fast and slow heats, and never had any luck with making good char. My best guess is that even on =91slow=92 heat, it is still too = much for propane and coal. Okay, you have your char tin heating on the fire. More and more smoke is coming out the tiny hole you made (that=92s why you made it!). The smoke smells really nasty. Drop a burning twig across the hole to ignite the smoke if you or your neighbors have a sensitive nose. When the smoke trail is almost gone, flip the can over in the fire, wait 1-2 minutes, and flip it back over. If there is no more smoke pull the can out of the fire, and IMMEDIATELY stick the twig into the hole on the top. The twig is to prevent pulling air back into the can as it cools down. =20 This is why it is nice to make char toward nightfall. If the can starts glowing red, it tells you that you do NOT have an airtight seal, and that air is being sucked back into the char tin, setting the char on fire....that=92s why the can is a dull red in color...it=92s hot. If this happens, toss the charcloth out and start over. I once needed to make some char at rendezvous and had stepped on the lid, so couldn=92t get a good seal. Rather than go borrow another tin, I tried making up a thick mud of clay, smeared that around the rim, put on the lid, added a bit more clay to the seam and tossed it in the fire. It worked like a charm. If the char is brown, or even has white spots, it was not on the fire long enough. Put it back in the can and cook it some more. You should see more smoke coming out the hole as you finish charring the cloth. If the char is brittle, it has been overcooked or still had the sizing left in the cloth. Leftover sizing often also leaves a shiny residue in the can. If it is brittle, throw it away and start over. Good char should be bend double without any cracking or crazing while being uniformly black in color. You should be able to bend it in half with no problems. If it can=92t do that, it is overcooked and makes inferior charcloth. Yep, it will still start fires, just not nearly as quickly. Assuming none of these bad things happened, congratulations! You=92ve made your first char cloth! Now what? Selecting a Flint A lot of people think this is a no-brainer, but it is important. There are two things you want in a flint. The first is sharpness, and the second is hardness. A truly sharp flint is like a piece of broken glass. It is one molecule thick on the edge. No steel knife of any type can even begin to approach that sort of sharpness. Learn how to knap a flint for maximum sharpness. It makes a big difference in how strong a string of sparks you can toss from the steel. Some of the best flints I=92ve ever had have been flakes and spalls left around after someone demonstrated arrowhead making. They=92re small and exceedingly sharp. Rule of thumb is that the darker the piece of flint, the harder it is. And the harder the piece of flint, the lower it dulls. But I=92ve seen some awfully light colored flints throw some very impressive sparks. So I give sharpness the nod over the hardness of the flint. If you can find it, get a chunk of red jasper. Some parts of the country it is easy to come by, and others quite difficult. Here in Houston, where we=92re 100 miles or more from the nearest rock at ground level, I cruise gravel parking lots. Much of the gravel we get is flint, and there always seems to be a piece or two of red jasper. Red jasper is 2-3 times as hard as flint, and if sharp will really throw some truly awesome sparks that can still sizzle when they hit the ground.=20 Selecting a Striker There are two types of strikers. Good ones and bad ones. Initially, it can be hard to tell the difference. The best place to get a GOOD striker is at rendezvous from the smith who made it. If you buy it from someone other than the blacksmith who made it, test it out for 10-15 minutes. Rule of thumb is that you should be able to hold the striker at waist level, strike it with the flint, and have sparks burning at the top of your moccasins. When you find a striker that does this, keep striking for about 15 minutes. Some of the strikers available have only a case hardening. Those sparks you see are little bits of burning metal cut off by the flint (see why we want a sharp flint?) and ignited by the friction of the flint hitting the striker.. If you only have a case hardness on the steel the metal is hard for only 2-3 thousands of an inch, and after 10 or so minutes of striking, suddenly quit giving off a spark. You=92ve used up the hardness, and the striker is worthless. You=92ll pay a few bucks more getting a striker from the original smith, but you=92ll also get a lifetime guarantee, most likely. Make sure the striking face is smooth. If it is made from a file, make sure that there are no file marks left on the face of the striker, or near the edges where a flint can hit. Catching one of these defects can snap the striker in half, as it forces it to break along a fault line. Tinder Tinder is made out of dead plants, the finer the better. There=92s a lot of good material out there. Dead grasses rolled through the hands until they become fibers, tow used in taxidermy (the leftovers from the flax plant when the linen is removed), hay, pine needles, cedar bark ground up finely by hand and allowed to dry. You want to keep it fine, but not turn it into a powder. Tinder is the stuff that will take the glowing coal from you char cloth and suddenly burst into flame for building your fire. Get the deadest, driest stuff you can find, dry it some more, and then keep it dry! Making a Fire by Flint and Steel Okay, you now have good charcloth, a good flint, a good steel and some tinder. How do we go about turning this into a conflagration? No problem. First of all, you=92re going to split up some kindling. Then you=92re going to follow the three (3) steps below EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. Once you get these three steps down pay, you can start experimenting to improve your speed. The tender you have will burn for only a few seconds, so you have to get some larger stuff burning during that time. Start by getting some dry wood split into pieces about the size of match sticks, and gradually progressing until you are adding pieces about a half to inch in diameter. At that point there is no way the fire is going out unless the heavens open up. We=92re not going to get into types of fires. I like a tipi style, other like some of the many others. Use what works for you. 1. Strike the spark. If you=92re right-handed, hold the steel in your left hand. Hold the flint/jasper level in your right with 2-3 pieces of char on top of the rock. The sharp edge of the flint must point to yor right.Use your thumb to keep the char from slipping off and position it so that the char is even with the striking edge of the flint. Use the steel to whack the flint in a rather gentle motion. You=92re trying to shave off tiny pieces of burning metal with the flint, not bash down a building. If you have to hit it hard to get a spark, you=92ve got either a lousy striker or a dull flint. Band-Aids may be called for until you get a feel for the proper technique. Keep it up until you get a spark to catch on the char. If you have good equipment and Monk=92s cloth, only one or two whacks will be needed. You can see a small orange glow in the char where the spark has lodged. This glow may only be obvious in the dark unless you shade the cloth. If you can=92t see it and burn your thumb, it=92s lit.. 2. Blow it into flame Blow on it gently to sprea This can cause a massive blowing fit, d the fire and at the same time grab a handful of the tinder you=92ve already made up into a bird=92s nest about the size of a baseball. Tuck the glowing char down into the center of the birdsnest, pinch the birdsnest closed using your thumb and forefinger to compress it around the char cloth, raise it above your head slightly with your back to the wind, and gently blow on it. If your lungs empty, and no flames are in sight, turn your head to 90 degrees, grab a breath of fresh air, and resume blowing. You keep the nest above your head, plus turn it 90 degrees to keep from sucking the unlit smoke back in your lungs, which is detrimental to your Mt. Man image. 3. Starting the Fire When the flames suddenly erupt, drop the birdsnest into your firepit, add the kindling, and gently nurse the blaze into a full conflagration by adding slightly larger pieces of wood to the fire. Make up a pot of coffee, and invite the booshway over. He may not be impressed with your first-ever flint and steel fire, but he always appreciates a pot of coffee. =46irebows I=92ll be the first to admit this is not one of my areas of great expertise. But I have used a couple of systems, and have started a hundred or so fires this way, mainly for the benefit of the public. Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 13 Feb 1998 06:34:29 GMT On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:02:49 -0800, you wrote: >Hello the List, > >There have been several messages concerning the best material for char >cloth. It's important to note that all natural fiber fabric >manufacturered in the U.S. is treated with a fire retardant by law. This >fire retardant also makes your char harder to light. My favorite is raw >cotton right off the plant, seeds and all. It will catch the smallest >spark and burn better and hotter than any material I have ever seen. NO >ONE who has used it has ever gone back to what they used before. > Unless the law has been changed in the last year, the above is incorrect, at least on a federal level. Some states may have more restrictive requirements, but Texas is not one of them. Flame retardant is required only for pajamas and flannel intended for childrens use. It is also available for some pajamas for adult use. You can buy untreated flannel at any fabric store. Not all of it is untreated, and you have to ask for it, but you can easily get it. Last time I bought any was a year or so ago. If the laws have changed I'm unaware of it. Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 13 Feb 1998 06:34:18 GMT On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:00:13 -0500, you wrote: >I am not bad mouthing Panther by any stretch. They have a wonderful=20 >catalog. However -- I tried on two different occasions to order lodges = from=20 >them. Very basic off the shelf pieces. I was told a minimum of 16 WEEKS=20 >before they could ship the first time, and a minimum of 12 WEEKS the = second=20 >time I tried to order from them. I then went to RK Lodges. I personally=20 >have 3 of them. They have excellent workmanship and prices. I haven't = had=20 >to wait more than 7 or 10 DAYS to have the tent in my hands. They are = the=20 >first people I try and deal with. Kat, good point. I've ordered from Panther several times, and never had this kind of delivery problem. But I live in Houston, and they're in West Virginia. When I need stuff, it is toward the end of the rendezvous period up north, and the beginning of the rendezvous period here in the south. =20 Mebbe they have slack time then, and that's why I've not had lengthy delays in getting what I ordered. A couple weeks max is what I remember waiting for a wall tent, diamond, hunter's lodge, and an 18 foot tipi. It might have been longer than that, but I'm sure my memory would flag a 3-4 month delay. Maybe I just ordered at the right time of the year. Glad you mentioned RK. I didn't include them in my original post about suppliers. I've never owned an RK anything, but have two good friends who each have their tipis. Another quality outfit to order from, from what I've seen. One of these tipis is now into its 6th or 7th season, and still going strong. IMO, the caddilac of tipis is the Spring Valley. A buddy of mine (the one who uses temporary roof racks on his van in the original post) bought his in the fall of 1987 after the SW in Johnson City. The lodge is still going strong, almost as good as new, although the poles are just about shot. You pay a premium for one of their lodges, but it may well be worth it. Bottom line of all this is that there are quite a few very reputable suppliers out there making very good products. Some of the smaller dealers (C&S for example) make excellent products also, but are not as well known. Shoddy craftsmanship and materials quickly puts folks out of business, so you can expect decent construction and life out of any of the established suppliers. Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 13 Feb 1998 11:35:49 -0500 >On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:00:13 -0500, you wrote: > >>I am not bad mouthing Panther by any stretch. They have a wonderful >>catalog. However -- I tried on two different occasions to order lodges from >>them. Very basic off the shelf pieces. I was told a minimum of 16 WEEKS >>before they could ship the first time, and a minimum of 12 WEEKS the second >>time I tried to order from them. I then went to RK Lodges. I personally >>have 3 of them. They have excellent workmanship and prices. I haven't had >>to wait more than 7 or 10 DAYS to have the tent in my hands. They are the >>first people I try and deal with. > >Kat, good point. I've ordered from Panther several times, and never >had this kind of delivery problem. I've ordered 3 tents from Panther... 10x10 wall, a 12x14 wall, and a Giant Bell Wedge, and never had to wait more than 3 weeks MAX. Also, tents have all been of excellent quality, with nary a leak, etc... The 12x14 sttod up in 40-60 mph winds at the Alifia River Ronnyvous in January no sweat. Course, "I" was sweatin it a mite... but the tent (and Panther) dinna let me down... YS, Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 13 Feb 1998 23:47:13 -0800 (PST) There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade" by Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he mentions other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a painting by Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the book, "Alfred Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a tent that looks like it might be a Pyramid. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know >of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are & >besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has been >doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has >been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. > >this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i >step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types of >lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my wife >& i. > >if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask >where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya a >cold 1. > > shootshimself ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Sparks Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 14 Feb 1998 07:54:00 -0500 Dear Shootshimself: I have never replyed on this site either, but I can't pass up this time.I have been to the Eastern many times and been gate captain a couple. I have never heard the story of how you got your name . Love to hear it. We have a LARGE wall tent that my husband has rope all over it to keep it from flapping in the wind. It is very roomy and comfortable. We just got a little wedge tent that is also perfect for weekenders for the two of us. We can even fit three in it pretty comfortably if Laura goes with us. Wall tent is from Panther, the wedge is from Spring Valley, both are very reliable companys. Keep on shin'in and keep your powder dry, Little Beaver zaslow wrote: > There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am > aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade" by > Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he mentions > other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a painting by > Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the book, "Alfred > Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a tent that > looks like it might be a Pyramid. > > Best Regards, > > Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > > At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: > >maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know > >of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are & > >besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has been > >doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has > >been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. > > > >this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i > >step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types of > >lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my wife > >& i. > > > >if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask > >where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya a > >cold 1. > > > > shootshimself ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HawkerAmm@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Time, touchwood, & Thompson Date: 14 Feb 1998 18:16:50 EST Allan, On the larger ones (mostly from birches), I have found that they can be sliced (more easily sawed into slices) and charred in that shape. Seems to work fine. As you say, once a spark has caught, the char is near impossible to put out! Hawker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi -Reply Date: 15 Feb 1998 12:37:01 -0600 Lanny, Missed you this weekend. We had 14 members and prospective members in attendance. Weather good, some light rain, several nights cold, but a good time. Went on and gave the next boshway, Larry Pendelton, 40 or so dollars to purchase stamps and things, so that should help him next year. We all kept expecting you to come in any minute. Hope all is well. I am leaving to go to Orlando and will be gone for the entire week(business). Will contact you when I get back with a full report, since you are the "official scribe". Have a good day. Brothers, Tim Oh, it just dawned upon me why you did not make it, did not have pork chops. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Windhams" Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezous Date: 16 Feb 1998 13:33:37 -0800 For those of you in the california terriory, and surroundng areas, we would like to post your events , so all can look at them and pick the ones they can attend send to windham@jps.net or http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Harvey Subject: MtMan-List: American Fur Co. Date: 15 Feb 1998 19:15:31 -0800 To the list: I recently purcahsed a home in St. Charles, MI. On the house is a sign that states it is a local historical site. It was surveyed in March of 1853 and was sold to the American Fur Co. in 1859. Is the American Fur Co. a fur trade company or some other sort of business. I do realize "The Fur Trade Era" lasted to about 1840. Also, what type of fur trade era personas or characters would be appropriate to the Michigan area? What books or other resources would you reccomend to read about the Michigan area fur trade? If you couldn't tell I am fairly new to the buckskinnin' game but have monitored this list for a while and finally have some questions. Thanks to all for any help in advance, Jim Harvey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Omanson & Hollinger Subject: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen: a permissable topic? Date: 15 Feb 1998 17:56:59 -0800 Would a discussion on the equipment & weaponry of Kentucky frontiersmen of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries be a permissable topic for the List? Though, strictly speaking, outside the geographical and chronological limitations of the List, because the culture of the western mountain man evolved, in many respects, from the culture of the Kentucky frontiersman, would a discussion of the latter be out of place? I am researching several related individuals who were scouts and soldiers on the Kentucky frontier and on the western frontier in the War of 1812 and would like to hear the List's opinions as to likely weaponry and equipment carried, and the possibility of reproducing them today. Bradley Omanson West Virginia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi -Reply Date: 15 Feb 1998 19:11:45 PST Tim Sorry that I missed. Sounds like you had a good camp. I had to work 12 hours Saturday and 6 hours today. Bummer!! See you next time---with PORK CHOPS11 Lanney ---------- > Lanny, > Missed you this weekend. We had 14 members and prospective members in > attendance. Weather good, some light rain, several nights cold, but a good > time. Went on and gave the next boshway, Larry Pendelton, 40 or so dollars to > purchase stamps and things, so that should help him next year. We all kept > expecting you to come in any minute. Hope all is well. I am leaving to go to > Orlando and will be gone for the entire week(business). Will contact you when > I get back with a full report, since you are the "official scribe". Have a > good day. > > > Brothers, > Tim > > > Oh, it just dawned upon me why you did not make it, did not have pork chops. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 14 Feb 1998 16:14:33 -0700 Dear Zaz, et al, I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration period. Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of documentation. The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background. As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord paying Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be relatively confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a jump to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David Thompson found their way to the Rocky Mountains. You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. -----Original Message----- >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am >aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade" by >Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he mentions >other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a painting by >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the book, "Alfred >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a tent that >looks like it might be a Pyramid. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are & >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has been >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. >> >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types of >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my wife >>& i. >> >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya a >>cold 1. >> >> shootshimself > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen: a permissible topic? Date: 15 Feb 1998 16:25:00 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3A2E.43539660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I for one would like to hear or read about anything that would widen my education about Mt men whether they be in the Kentucky mountains or hills I think that the mountains back east are kind of funny I can look out side and see a mountain fifty miles away that is 14410' tall and remember it starts at sea level. If you put it in the rockies it would be over 20000 ft tall. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Omanson & Hollinger : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen: a permissable topic? : Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 5:56 PM : : Would a discussion on the equipment & weaponry of Kentucky frontiersmen : of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries be a permissable : topic for the List? Though, strictly speaking, outside the geographical : and chronological limitations of the List, because the culture of the : western mountain man evolved, in many respects, from the culture of the : Kentucky frontiersman, would a discussion of the latter be out of place? : : I am researching several related individuals who were scouts and : soldiers on the Kentucky frontier and on the western frontier in the War : of 1812 and would like to hear the List's opinions as to likely weaponry : and equipment carried, and the possibility of reproducing them today. : : Bradley Omanson : West Virginia : : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3A2E.43539660 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I for one would like to hear or read = about anything that would widen my education about Mt men whether they = be in the Kentucky mountains or hills I think that the mountains back = east are kind of funny I can look out side and see a mountain fifty = miles away that is 14410' tall and remember it starts at sea level. = If you put it in the rockies it would be over 20000 ft tall. = Later Jon T

----------
: From: Omanson & Hollinger = <homanger@host.dmsc.net>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen: a = permissable topic?
: Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 5:56 PM
: =
: Would a discussion on the equipment & weaponry of Kentucky = frontiersmen
: of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries = be a permissable
: topic for the List? Though, strictly = speaking, outside the geographical
: and chronological limitations = of the List, because the culture of the
: western mountain man = evolved, in many respects, from the culture of the
: Kentucky = frontiersman, would a discussion of the latter be out of place?
: =
: I am researching several related individuals who were = scouts and
: soldiers on the Kentucky frontier and on the western = frontier in the War
: of 1812 and would like to hear the List's = opinions as to likely weaponry
: and equipment carried, and the = possibility of reproducing them today.
:
: Bradley Omanson
: = West Virginia
:
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3A2E.43539660-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 15 Feb 1998 19:37:14 -0800 (PST) David, I completely agree with you. Just wanted to provide a starting point for those that wanted to know about the Pyramid tent and do some research on it. Also, I have also heard it argued that the tent in the Miller painting is actually a Tipi and Miller just didn't paint the poles for it (although I find that a bit hard to believe.) There is such a thing as artistic licence, though. Another thing about Darby's Sketchbook, he says he has references for the Pyramid dating it to the 1820s, but I would like to see them before taking it as gospel. As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is historically correct. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 At 04:14 PM 2/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >Dear Zaz, et al, > >I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically >because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at >least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it >wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration >period. > >Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages >11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >documentation. > >The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that >it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background. >As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of >the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the >British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord paying >Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the >common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously >engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. > >So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller >painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be relatively >confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life >weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a jump >to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had >worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. > >There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British >bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David Thompson >found their way to the Rocky Mountains. > >You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of >the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth. Date: 15 Feb 1998 19:52:54 +0000 I have tried just about everything over the years for char cloth. The absolute best I have ever found is lamp wicking. Tough as can be, it will catch and hold a spark better than anything. Don Keas rparker7 wrote: >On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:02:49 -0800, you wrote: > >>Hello the List, >> >>There have been several messages concerning the best material for char >>cloth. It's important to note that all natural fiber fabric >>manufacturered in the U.S. is treated with a fire retardant by law. This >>fire retardant also makes your char harder to light. My favorite is raw >>cotton right off the plant, seeds and all. It will catch the smallest >>spark and burn better and hotter than any material I have ever seen. NO >>ONE who has used it has ever gone back to what they used before. >> >Unless the law has been changed in the last year, the above is >incorrect, at least on a federal level. Some states may have more >restrictive requirements, but Texas is not one of them. Flame >retardant is required only for pajamas and flannel intended for >childrens use. It is also available for some pajamas for adult use. >You can buy untreated flannel at any fabric store. Not all of it is >untreated, and you have to ask for it, but you can easily get it. >Last time I bought any was a year or so ago. If the laws have changed >I'm unaware of it. >Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com >Full SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus >Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A3D6900106; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:16:38 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y3Ml3-0005Ts-00; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:10:29 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y3Ml1-0005TN-00; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:10:27 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id >IAA18901 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:10:26 -0700 (MST) >Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y3Egj-0004yS-00; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:33:29 -0700 >Received: (from smap@localhost) > by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) > id AAA06262 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 >00:32:20 -0600 (CST) >Received: from hou-tx63-15.ix.netcom.com(207.221.72.143) by >dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) > id rma006090; Fri Feb 13 00:31:53 1998 >From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth >Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:34:29 GMT >Message-ID: <34e9c9e2.2617286@smtp.ix.netcom.com> >References: <34E31D29.C0@eee.org> >In-Reply-To: <34E31D29.C0@eee.org> >X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881270084 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 15 Feb 1998 19:58:31 +0000 Susan Magoffin used a one pole pyramid on her trip down the Santa Fe trail in 1846. Don Keas David Tippets wrote: >Dear Zaz, et al, > >I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically >because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at >least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it >wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration >period. > >Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages >11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >documentation. > >The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that >it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background. >As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of >the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the >British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord paying >Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the >common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously >engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. > >So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller >painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be relatively >confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life >weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a jump >to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had >worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. > >There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British >bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David Thompson >found their way to the Rocky Mountains. > >You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of >the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. > >-----Original Message----- >From: zaslow >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi > > >>There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am >>aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade" by >>Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he >mentions >>other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a painting by >>Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the book, >"Alfred >>Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a tent >that >>looks like it might be a Pyramid. >> >>Best Regards, >> >>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >> >>At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know >>>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are & >>>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has been >>>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has >>>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. >>> >>>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i >>>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types of >>>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my >wife >>>& i. >>> >>>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask >>>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya a >>>cold 1. >>> >>> shootshimself >> >> >> > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id AC135C60210; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:53:23 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y4FeG-00059R-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:08 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y4FeC-00058Y-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:04 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id >SAA25097 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:03 -0700 (MST) >Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS02 [207.68.152.140] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y3yOS-0005Ei-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:21:41 -0700 >Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR02 - 207.68.143.138 by email.msn.com with >Microsoft SMTPSVC; > Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:21:57 -0800 >Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.245 by email.msn.com with Microsoft >SMTPSVC; > Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:24:39 -0800 >From: "David Tippets" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation >Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:14:33 -0700 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >Message-ID: <0dbfb3924230e28UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881270094 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SSavage846@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Co. Date: 15 Feb 1998 23:05:19 EST I believe the American Fur Co, was established by John Jacob Astor. There is an excellent book on the subject called "Astoria and Empire" by James P. Ronda . It is published by the University of Nebraska Press. Also the web page >http://www.thehistorynet.com/< use to have an article on John Jacob Astor. Regards Stephen C. Savage ssavage846@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SSavage846@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen: a permissible topic? Date: 15 Feb 1998 23:13:52 EST I think a discussion of Kentucky frontiersmen would be appropriate. To often the early frontier is ignored in favor of the American west of the Mississippi river, with lout realizing that the eastern frontier people lead the way to the western frontier. With out them there would have been no western frontier. Regards Stephen Savage ssavage846@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 15 Feb 1998 23:31:40 EST Richard, are you catching a spark with the raw cotton or do you char it first? Not much cotton in the Northwest, but we do have touchwood...... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barry Powell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen: a permissable topic? Date: 16 Feb 1998 08:47:25 -0500 I would appreciate a good discussion on eastern frontiersmen (Kentucky and otherwise). That happens to be my area of expertise anyway! BDP At 05:56 PM 2/15/98 -0800, you wrote: >Would a discussion on the equipment & weaponry of Kentucky frontiersmen >of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries be a permissable >topic for the List? Though, strictly speaking, outside the geographical > >Bradley Omanson >West Virginia > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth. Date: 16 Feb 1998 08:32:06 -0600 (CST) >I have tried just about everything over the years for char cloth. The >absolute best I have ever found is lamp wicking. Tough as can be, it will >catch and hold a spark better than anything. >Don Keas > But, since the lamps which used that wicking weren't developed until the late 1850s at the earliest, you'd do well to find something in addition to which would be appropriate for the rendezvous period, if that is what you're interpreting. That's why I use unbleached muslin. It catches a spark well, but it's also good for any American history black powder period. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Dadly-pattern knives Date: 16 Feb 1998 08:47:43 -0600 Washtahay- would appreciate any info in Re: the date of introduction of the Dadly or Dadley pattern knives. Thanks LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen: a permissable topic? Date: 15 Feb 1998 17:48:47 -0800 Omanson & Hollinger wrote: > Kentucky frontiersman, would a discussion of the latter be out of place? > I don't think it would be out of place, but I'm not the one who sets the rules either. > I am researching several related individuals who were scouts and > soldiers on the Kentucky frontier and on the western frontier in the Who are the individuals? That would be important to know when talking about likely equipment. > War of 1812 and would like to hear the List's opinions as to likely weaponry > and equipment carried, and the possibility of reproducing them today. > I can't see you having a problem with reproducing equipment and weapons. For starters you can't go to far wrong spending $5 on a Dixie Gun Works Catalog just for the shear volume of stuff and information. There are also lots of other sites on the Net that has free information and stuff for sale. But for specific help you need to give specific information. Dale ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen: a permissable topic? Date: 15 Feb 1998 18:44:27 -0800 Omanson & Hollinger wrote: > I am researching several related individuals who were scouts and > soldiers on the Kentucky frontier and on the western frontier in the War > of 1812 and would like to hear the List's opinions as to likely weaponry > and equipment carried, and the possibility of reproducing them today. Here are some links that may have some of the information you're looking for. They seem to be more orientated toward the longhunter of the 1700's.http://home1.gte.net/ott1/http://www.ccnn.net/~paladin/ http://www.gfw.k12.mn.us/~norifle/ Hope these help, Medicine Bear ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 15 Feb 1998 19:58:11 -0800 zaslow wrote: > Another thing about Darby's Sketchbook, he says he has > references for the Pyramid dating it to the 1820s, but I would like to see > them before taking it as gospel. As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand > reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is > historically correct. Okay, if the pyramid is pushing to envelope of "period correct" can anyone recomend a tent that is period correct and where it might be obtained? Thanks, MB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth/Lampwick Date: 16 Feb 1998 08:04:51 -0700 Henry, I was delighted to discover you have some information about the origins of lampwick. My historical interests in the origins and times of origin of lampwick extend beyond lamps and char. In the turn of the Century "how to" by outdoors people such as E. Kreps and Raymond Thompson, they describe lampwick as the traditional and preferred material for snowshoe bindings. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could steer me in the direction of any information that might shed light on just how early lampwick might have been a common trade item in the North. In a recent conversation with Canadian Park Ranger Craig McDonald, I learned much to my surprise that one of the reasons that lampwick is still preferred by many for snowshoe bindings is because it so readily absorbs water and freezes after the bindings are tied. What this amounts to is a binding that can be formed exactly to an individuals moccasin, but then freezes to to a semi-rigid binding that the foot can be twisted into, and out of, without messing with the knots. This allows rapid escape in an emergency, such as breaking through the ice on a lake, and easy entry into the binding without having to remove the mittens. The lampwick is tied in the same traditional Indian pattern as leather was previously tied in, requiring about 8 feet of lampwick per binding. This suggests, that once lampwick was in demand for snowshoe bindings as well as lamps, it was probably sold or traded in fairly long sections. Try finding it in a long piece nowadays. Please point me in the direction to learn about the origins of lampwick. Thanks! -----Original Message----- >>I have tried just about everything over the years for char cloth. The >>absolute best I have ever found is lamp wicking. Tough as can be, it will >>catch and hold a spark better than anything. >>Don Keas >> > > >But, since the lamps which used that wicking weren't developed until the >late 1850s at the earliest, you'd do well to find something in addition to >which would be appropriate for the rendezvous period, if that is what >you're interpreting. That's why I use unbleached muslin. It catches a >spark well, but it's also good for any American history black powder >period. > >HBC > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >************** "Make it so!" *************** > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth/Lampwick Date: 16 Feb 1998 10:37:22 -0600 (CST) >Henry, > >I was delighted to discover you have some information about the origins of >lampwick. My historical interests in the origins and times of origin of >lampwick extend beyond lamps and char. > David My mistake. I was under the impression that you were refering to the wide cotton wick made for kerosene lamps. Those are of mid-19th century origin. I am delighted to learn more about the precursors of kerosene lamp wick. Thanks for "en-lightening" me HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Book Sale Date: 16 Feb 1998 10:24:33 -0600 Washtahay folks- I am having what I hope will be my final book sale of the year. Contact me off-list for details. Details and the list will go out about 3PM central. Thanks. LongWalker, c. du B. Jim Colburn jc60714@navix.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 16 Feb 1998 10:47:44 -0600 (CST) >zaslow wrote: > >> Another thing about Darby's Sketchbook, he says he has >> references for the Pyramid dating it to the 1820s, but I would like to see >> them before taking it as gospel. As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand >> reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is >> historically correct. > >Okay, if the pyramid is pushing to envelope of "period correct" can anyone >recomend a tent that is period correct and where it might be obtained? > >Thanks, MB Sure. A wedge tent is definitely appropriate for the rendezvous period and well documented by darn near everyone. I'd use a miners tent for Bent's Fort's 1846 period events (thanks to Parkman who had one on the Santa Fe Trail that year). I would hesitate using them for the rondy period w/o good documentation. For those I rely on my wedge, or just bunk with someone else. There is usually more than a few lodges with plenty of extra space. Most tent dealers sell the venerable wedge. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Co. Date: 16 Feb 1998 11:27:09 -0600 (CST) >To the list: > > I recently purcahsed a home in St. Charles, MI. On the house is >a sign that states it is a local historical site. It was surveyed in >March of 1853 and was sold to the American Fur Co. in 1859. Is the >American Fur Co. a fur trade company or some other sort of business. I >do realize "The Fur Trade Era" lasted to about 1840. Jim, Welcome to the hottest history discussion list this side of the Civil War. You'll learn more than you thought you would about this topic. One thing I would caution is do not confuse the Fur Trade era with the Rendezvous period. The latter only lasted 16 years, while the former is still going on. The era many people erroneously refer to when they say the "Fur Trade" is the period between 1825 and 1840, when the fur trade companies designated a place in the mountains to meet trappers and exchange supplies for furs gathered the previous winter. Such events were called Rendezvous, a French word which refers to a meeting or gathering. Modern fur trade living history gatherings are, thus, called Rendezvous, or simply the Rondy, or colloquial variations thereof. What happened before 1825 and after1840? Before the historic rondy, the fur companies operated out of trading posts, or "factories" where goods and supplies were exchanged for furs. The person in charge of the post was called a "chief factor." The fur trade did not end in 1840. The rendezvous system did. After the last rondy in 1840, the fur companies went back to the old trading post system, where it had essentially begun. The fur trade is still with us today. Hudson's Bay Company, founded in 1670 for the sole purpose of trading furs, is still a viable trading company, and remains the oldest corporation in North America today. On the Southern Plains, as well as on the upper Missouri, there really was no break in the continuity of the trading post system. Bent's Fort on the Arkansas, as an example, was established at the height of the rondy period (1833) and thrived, primarily because the Bent St Vrain Co (BSV), proprieters traded for buffalo robes (as well as beaver, fox, otter and others.) Although the Bent brothers and Ceran St. Vrain had been beaver trappers, they were not tied to the beaver trade for their primary livelihood, which is why they outlasted the rendezvous. (What eventually became of Bents Fort and the buffalo robe trade on the Arkansas is another story.) After the beaver trade fell off, due to market anomalies and environmental damage, the buffalo robe trade (which btw is considered by historians as part of the fur trade story) continued to thrive through the middle 1880s. An indepth article on the buffalo robe fur trade is T. Lindsay Baker's two part article "Beaver to Buffalo Robes: Transition in the Fur Trade," which can be found in the _Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly_, Spring and Summer issues of 1987. T. Lindsay is one of the recognized experts on the buffalo robe trade, and a real nice guy. Welcome to a fascinating period in our history. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HughesDL@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: digest Date: 16 Feb 1998 13:08:16 EST subscribe hist_text-digest hughesdl@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Omanson & Hollinger Subject: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersman > mountain man Date: 16 Feb 1998 13:23:24 -0800 Firstly, thanks to Dale Nelson & Medicine Bear for helpful tips, which I will follow up on. I have a fair amount of information about several Kentucky backwoodsmen/soldiers, who were part of one family, but am holding off posting it until the Rule-maker, if there is one, says yea or nay. In the meantime, in order to establish more fully the relation between the culture of the eighteenth-century trans-Allegheny frontier and that of the Western frontier which followed, here are a couple of paragraphs from C.P. Russell's FIREARMS, TRAPS, & TOOLS OF THE MOUNTAIN MEN: "When Lewis and Clark recruited their party of explorers in 1803-4, they selected and "signed up" nine young backwoodsmen from Kentucky and obtained the transfer of fourteen hardbitten soldiers from the Regular Army. Two French boatmen and the half-breed interpreter George Drouillard completed the permanent party. All these men had experience in wilderness life and Indian contacts. Like the two leaders, most of them were well schooled in the circumstances and causes of recurrent Indian wars, as they had occurred in Kentucky and the Old Northwest. A number of them were seasoned hunters thoroughly skilled in trapping beaver; inherently or intuitively they were already "mountain men," although the term had not yet been coined." (p3) "From the beginning of their march, Lewis and Clark and their followers practiced the techniques of travel, trade, craftsmanship, and sustenance that later characterized the field activities of the Western beaver hunters. These were not new procedures; they were identical to those which most of the men had used all during their youth in Kentucky and north of the Ohio. Upon the return of the expedition, American trappers and fur traders in numbers occupied the Missouri, many of them going at once to the more promising beaver waters reportd by the explorers. They accomplished their occupation of the new country by employing much the same methods that their progenitors had adopted in taking the trans-Allegheny region and the Mississippi Valley. Their purposes, their procedure in Indian intercourse~ even their dress and personal equipment~ were essentially the same. Our concept of the American fur trade is marked by this continuity of the trade as an institution." (p4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: a111865@webtv.net (Tom Sherman) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #21 Date: 16 Feb 1998 12:32:35 -0700 i would like info on idaho events this year or any others in montana or wyoming need something to look forward to only three more months of winter left here.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 16 Feb 1998 15:01:38 EST In a message dated 98-02-14 07:51:01 EST, John Sparks wrote that his: << Wall tent is from Panther, the wedge is from Spring Valley, both are very reliable companys. >> Another source for info on tents and tents is: TENTSMITHS Deb and Peter Marques (pronounced 'Marks") have a web site with a lot of pictures and history of tents at www.tentsmiths.com. Their quality is excellent and they are real nice folks. And I give this praise well at the same time telling you that I too own a Panther wall tent (bought it before we got to know Peter and Deb) and I like my Panter a lot. From what I have seen every maker does some tents better then others but if you go with Spring Valley, Tentsmiths or Panter you will get your moneys worth. Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 16 Feb 1998 08:55:03 -0700 Jerry, I'm actually feeling pretty radical on this topic of late, and am in the mood to suggest a new way to document fur-trade period shelter types. This is what I suggest. Assemble 12 teams of 4 mountain people each (squaws welcome). Each team will be assigned 4 head of riding plus 4 head of packstock. The packstock will be loaded with everything needed for a years trapping in the mountains, as in leaving rendezvous. Goods will be packed in traditional mant'ied- fashion with sheeting, blanketing, pack covers, or other period correct packing fabric. The contest starts at daylight with the contestents riding through mountainous country without modern-maintained trails. They proceed through the day to where ever they happen to be at sunset, and are then givent he senario that an early September snowstorm is blowing in. While one member of each team gets a fire going, the other three have to unpack the stock and using only the pack covers and manties to build a shelter to house the group of four through the snowstorm. During the night, Coyote is allowed to throw buckets of water at the team from a distance of 10 feet. The next morning, judges inspect the teams and their shelters. Any shelter that kept their team warm and dry through the night is there upon considered a documented fur-trade era shelter -- licensed for immitation by others. Wonder if I could sell the idea as an event for this year's Western Nationals? The biggest problem is most of us usually travel and camp as though we were just the victims of a successful Blackfoot horse raid. We might have to first walk over the mountain to Fort Hall to first trade for, or steal, enough horses to enable us to have the contest. Dave -----Original Message----- >David, > >I completely agree with you. Just wanted to provide a starting point for >those that wanted to know about the Pyramid tent and do some research on it. >Also, I have also heard it argued that the tent in the Miller painting is >actually a Tipi and Miller just didn't paint the poles for it (although I >find that a bit hard to believe.) There is such a thing as artistic >licence, though. Another thing about Darby's Sketchbook, he says he has >references for the Pyramid dating it to the 1820s, but I would like to see >them before taking it as gospel. As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand >reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is >historically correct. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > >At 04:14 PM 2/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Dear Zaz, et al, >> >>I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically >>because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at >>least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it >>wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration >>period. >> >>Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages >>11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >>documentation. >> >>The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that >>it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background. >>As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of >>the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the >>British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord paying >>Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the >>common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously >>engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. >> >>So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller >>painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be relatively >>confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life >>weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a jump >>to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had >>worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. >> >>There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British >>bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David Thompson >>found their way to the Rocky Mountains. >> >>You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of >>the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 16 Feb 1998 08:45:40 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3AB7.42A6DD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pyramid tent would be fine if you are a buckskinner and your persona is in the time frame. I have seen some good size pyramid tents. But the wedge tent would work real well and is roomy for two or a wall tent is good and depending on the size are quite simple to put up. My first wife had a 22' Tipi crow set and what a pain in the donkey 35 ' poles I had a chev van and I needed a trailer to make me legal in WA I could only be 14 ' from the last axle that is why the trailer. I have a friend who has a 14' Tipi and does quite well the poles are shorter and the bundle you can carry in one trip. Look up Panther Primitive tents in excite search and it was the first one on the list no title they have good prices I am getting a wall tent this summer for new my bride. I have a 7 ' wedge now but want something bigger I like the wedge because three seven foot poles are nice. The wall tent will have 3 poles one 10' and two 7' I can still get them in the back of my truck. Until later Jon T ---------- : From: Frank Stewart : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation : Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 7:58 PM : : : : zaslow wrote: : : > Another thing about Darby's Sketchbook, he says he has : > references for the Pyramid dating it to the 1820s, but I would like to see : > them before taking it as gospel. As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand : > reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is : > historically correct. : : Okay, if the pyramid is pushing to envelope of "period correct" can anyone : recomend a tent that is period correct and where it might be obtained? : : Thanks, MB : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3AB7.42A6DD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Pyramid tent would be fine if you = are a buckskinner and your persona is in the time frame. I have = seen some good size pyramid tents. But the wedge tent would work = real well and is roomy for two or a wall tent is good and depending on = the size are quite simple to put up. My first wife had a 22' Tipi = crow set and what a pain in the donkey 35 ' poles I had a chev van = and I needed a trailer to make me legal in WA I could only be 14 ' from = the last axle that is why the trailer. I have a friend who has a = 14' Tipi and does quite well the poles are shorter and the bundle you = can carry in one trip. Look up Panther Primitive tents in excite = search and it was the first one on the list no title they have good = prices I am getting a wall tent this summer for new my bride. I = have a 7 ' wedge now but want something bigger I like the wedge because = three seven foot poles are nice. The wall tent will have 3 poles = one 10' and two 7' I can still get them in the back of my truck. = Until later Jon T

----------
: From: = Frank Stewart <MedicineBear@Hawken54.sparks.nv.us>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent = documentation
: Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 7:58 PM
:
: =
:
: zaslow wrote:
:
: > Another thing about Darby's = Sketchbook, he says he has
: > references for the Pyramid dating = it to the 1820s, but I would like to see
: > them before taking it = as gospel. As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand
: > = reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is
: = > historically correct.
:
: Okay, if the pyramid is pushing to = envelope of "period correct" can anyone
: recomend a tent = that is period correct and where it might be obtained?
:
: = Thanks, MB
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3AB7.42A6DD60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK Date: 16 Feb 1998 17:22:57 EST Ho the List Please indulge me if this is not appropriate use of the list I am truly sorry. I live in the NYC-Metro area and blackpowder brothers are far and few between. A local brother called me last night to say his son who was 16 years old passed away from a latent heart defect. Buckskin Marty Jaeckel has been shooting BP for over thirty years, and has been a mainstay in local area re-enactments, show & tells and shoots. If you could please see it in your hearts to spare a few prayers for his boy Brian, all the brothers in the concrete canyon (as few as we are) would be most obliged. Once again I am sorry if this is not an appropriate use of the list, and I am most sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Thank you Jseminerio@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Sparks Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK Date: 16 Feb 1998 18:05:08 +1100 I don't think this is an inappropriate use of the list. No matter what form of Diety we believe in, prayer to God, or the Great Spirit are always received. We will pray for this family. Jon and Sharon Sparks JSeminerio@aol.com wrote: > Ho the List > > Please indulge me if this is not appropriate use of the list I am truly sorry. > > I live in the NYC-Metro area and blackpowder brothers are far and few between. > A local brother called me last night to say his son who was 16 years old > passed away from a latent heart defect. > > Buckskin Marty Jaeckel has been shooting BP for over thirty years, and has > been a mainstay in local area re-enactments, show & tells and shoots. If you > could please see it in your hearts to spare a few prayers for his boy Brian, > all the brothers in the concrete canyon (as few as we are) would be most > obliged. > > Once again I am sorry if this is not an appropriate use of the list, and I am > most sorry to be the bearer of bad news. > > Thank you > Jseminerio@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 16 Feb 1998 12:17:39 -0800 Thanks Henry, that's good enough for me, I'm off to price a wedge tent! Watch yor backtrail, MB Henry B. Crawford wrote: > Sure. A wedge tent is definitely appropriate for the rendezvous period and > well documented by darn near everyone. > > Most tent dealers sell the venerable wedge. > > Cheers, > HBC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 16 Feb 1998 18:21:37 PST I did not "defend the authenticity" of the prymid tent per se. I provided a first person account of its use in the spring of 1846 by tourist Francis Parkman during his vacation to the mountains and said that was good enough for me. You are right, the design is so basic that it may have been used by cavemen. I do own two prymids and a wall tent, but I camp most often under a square sheet of canvas. Lanney Ratcliff ---------- > > Dear Zaz, et al, > > I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically > because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at > least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it > wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration > period. > > Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages > 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of > documentation. > > The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that > it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background. > As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of > the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the > British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord paying > Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the > common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously > engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. > > So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller > painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be relatively > confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life > weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a jump > to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had > worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. > > There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British > bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David Thompson > found their way to the Rocky Mountains. > > You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of > the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. > > -----Original Message----- > From: zaslow > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi > > > >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am > >aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade" by > >Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he > mentions > >other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a painting by > >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the book, > "Alfred > >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a tent > that > >looks like it might be a Pyramid. > > > >Best Regards, > > > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > > > >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know > >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are & > >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has been > >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has > >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. > >> > >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i > >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types of > >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my > wife > >>& i. > >> > >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask > >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya a > >>cold 1. > >> > >> shootshimself > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK Date: 16 Feb 1998 19:24:05 -0500 PLEASE FORWARD OR PLACE HIS MAILING ADDRESS ON THE LIST SO THAT WE CAN SEND OR PROVIDE INDIVIDUAL WELL WISHES. IN TIME THERE IS A PLACE AND A NEED THAT IS ULTIMATELY FULFILLED. OUR PRAYERS AND DREAMS ARE FORWARDED. MAY THE BIG MAKER LOOK OVER HIM AND LET HIS LODGE BE ALWAYS WARM AND HIS PATH BE ENJOYED WITH GOOD HUNTING, FAIR WEATHERA FULL COOKING POT AND CRITTERS TO SKIN. MAY HIS DAYS FOREVER BE FILLED WITH SUNSHINE AND GOOD WINDS THAT ALWAYS BLOW. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Co. Date: 16 Feb 1998 18:32:27 PST Amen on T. Lindsay Baker. We went to junior high shool and high school together (and were graduated together in the dim mists of pre-history---1965--- from Cleburne, Texas High School. Do not miss the chance to catch his portrayal of a buffalo skinner. He dresses as authentically as possible, including a wig, and screeches a loud, lurid song to gain the attention of the audience. Believe me it works. Always been a nice fellow, and still is. Lanney Ratcliff ---------- > >To the list: > > > > I recently purcahsed a home in St. Charles, MI. On the house is > >a sign that states it is a local historical site. It was surveyed in > >March of 1853 and was sold to the American Fur Co. in 1859. Is the > >American Fur Co. a fur trade company or some other sort of business. I > >do realize "The Fur Trade Era" lasted to about 1840. > > > Jim, > Welcome to the hottest history discussion list this side of the Civil War. > You'll learn more than you thought you would about this topic. > > One thing I would caution is do not confuse the Fur Trade era with the > Rendezvous period. The latter only lasted 16 years, while the former is > still going on. The era many people erroneously refer to when they say the > "Fur Trade" is the period between 1825 and 1840, when the fur trade > companies designated a place in the mountains to meet trappers and exchange > supplies for furs gathered the previous winter. Such events were called > Rendezvous, a French word which refers to a meeting or gathering. Modern > fur trade living history gatherings are, thus, called Rendezvous, or simply > the Rondy, or colloquial variations thereof. > > What happened before 1825 and after1840? Before the historic rondy, the > fur companies operated out of trading posts, or "factories" where goods and > supplies were exchanged for furs. The person in charge of the post was > called a "chief factor." The fur trade did not end in 1840. The > rendezvous system did. After the last rondy in 1840, the fur companies > went back to the old trading post system, where it had essentially begun. > The fur trade is still with us today. Hudson's Bay Company, founded in > 1670 for the sole purpose of trading furs, is still a viable trading > company, and remains the oldest corporation in North America today. > > On the Southern Plains, as well as on the upper Missouri, there really was > no break in the continuity of the trading post system. Bent's Fort on the > Arkansas, as an example, was established at the height of the rondy period > (1833) and thrived, primarily because the Bent St Vrain Co (BSV), > proprieters traded for buffalo robes (as well as beaver, fox, otter and > others.) Although the Bent brothers and Ceran St. Vrain had been beaver > trappers, they were not tied to the beaver trade for their primary > livelihood, which is why they outlasted the rendezvous. (What eventually > became of Bents Fort and the buffalo robe trade on the Arkansas is another > story.) > > After the beaver trade fell off, due to market anomalies and environmental > damage, the buffalo robe trade (which btw is considered by historians as > part of the fur trade story) continued to thrive through the middle 1880s. > An indepth article on the buffalo robe fur trade is T. Lindsay Baker's two > part article "Beaver to Buffalo Robes: Transition in the Fur Trade," which > can be found in the _Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly_, Spring and Summer > issues of 1987. T. Lindsay is one of the recognized experts on the buffalo > robe trade, and a real nice guy. > > Welcome to a fascinating period in our history. > > Cheers, > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ************** "Make it so!" *************** > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 16 Feb 1998 19:56:58 -0500 I DO BELIEVE IN AUTHENTISITY, AND HISTORICAL RECREATION BUT AFTER READING ALL THE RESPONSES TO THE TIPI / PYRAMID TENT ISSUE CAN ONLY STATE WHAT A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AND DEDICATED BUCKSKINNER ONCE SAID. QUOTE "DALE BLACK" IF IT WORKED AND WAS AVAILABLE IN THE MOUNTAINMEN TIME HE WOULD HAVE USED IT AND ALWAYS KEEP IT IN THAT SPIRIT AND YOU WILL ALWAYS BE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TIME YOU ARE TRYING TO DEPICT. THERE MUST HAVE BEEN 20 MSGS IN REFERENCE TO THIS TENT ISSUE. IN EFFECT IF YOU DONT FEEL THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IS PERIOD THEN DONT USE IT. IF SOMEONE SAYS IT IS NOT PERIOD THEN LOOK AT IT YOURSELF WITH AN OPEN MIND AND IF YOUR DWELLING ISNT PROPER AND THEN ANALIZE WHAT YOU ARE TRULY TRYING TO DO OR ACCOMPLISH. COMMON SENSE IS A KEY FACTOR IN YOUR PORTRAYAL OF THE TIME FRAME YOU ARE TRYING TO RECREATE. I'M SORREY BUT I HAVE READ A LOT OF GOOD COMMENTS AND A LOT OF HISTORICAL BACKGROUND AND DONT BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS SUBJECT. WHY NOT MAKE A LIST OF HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION OR A DATABASE OF GUNMAKERS THAT LIVED IN THIS TIME PERIOD A COMPLETE DATABASE WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE TO RESTORE GUNS WITH LITTLE OR NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT A MAKERS THINKING OR MANNER OF CONSTRUCTION THAN TRYING TO SECOND GUESS HIM. IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION. EVEN TO INCLUDE THE PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN. PLEASE LIST FORGIVE ME FOR THIS FOLLY BUT IT SEEMS TO BE BEAT TO DEATH BY NOW. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:21:37 PST "Lanney Ratcliff" writes: >I did not "defend the authenticity" of the prymid tent per se. I >provided >a first person account of its use in the spring of 1846 by tourist >Francis >Parkman during his vacation to the mountains and said that was good >enough >for me. You are right, the design is so basic that it may have been >used >by cavemen. I do own two prymids and a wall tent, but I camp most >often >under a square sheet of canvas. >Lanney Ratcliff > >---------- >> >> Dear Zaz, et al, >> >> I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, >basically >> because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been >at >> least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if >it >> wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western >emigration >> period. >> >> Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much >misinformation(pages >> 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >> documentation. >> >> The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation >is that >> it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the >background. >> As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of >any of >> the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, >the >> British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord >paying >> Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was >the >> common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was >previously >> engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. >> >> So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the >Miller >> painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be >relatively >> confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his >life >> weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big >a jump >> to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what >had >> worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. >> >> There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported >British >> bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David >Thompson >> found their way to the Rocky Mountains. >> >> You may have noticed that most of the people defending the >authenticity of >> the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: zaslow >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi >> >> >> >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that >I am >> >aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur >Trade" >by >> >Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he >> mentions >> >other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a >painting >by >> >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the >book, >> "Alfred >> >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a >tent >> that >> >looks like it might be a Pyramid. >> > >> >Best Regards, >> > >> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >> > >> >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do >not >know >> >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not >thinkthey are >& >> >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family >has >been >> >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no >one has >> >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. >> >> >> >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & >if i >> >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different >types >of >> >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now >just my >> wife >> >>& i. >> >> >> >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & >ask >> >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might >offer ya >a >> >>cold 1. >> >> >> >> shootshimself %%%%%%%%%%%END OF MSg%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 16 Feb 1998 19:59:26 EST After all these years I still don't get why people still scratch for any small piece of information to document (Justify) a pyramid tent. The way I see it, you either play this game historically correct, or you don't. If you do, then you choose a tent is eminently documentable--something like a wedge. If you don't want to be so accurate, you choose a pyramid. I mean, why choose a pyramid in the first place. They are about the same cost as a wedge. They are less poles. Two less. Big deal. They set up faster. My wedge tent is up in 7 to 10 minutes. What is this, a race? And what difference does a few minutes set-up make? So I ask you, "Do you want to be historically correct?", or "Do you want to set-up in record time so the time you have left over you can spend justifying and looking for that one grain of support that someone, somewhere, onetime, used a pyramid?" Whew, glad I got that off my chest, it's been crushing me. Guess you know the way my stick floats. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: list topics Date: 16 Feb 1998 20:30:51 -0700 At 01:23 PM 2/16/98 -0800, homanger@host.dmsc.net wrote: ...... Would a discussion on the equipment & weaponry of Kentucky frontiersmen of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries be a permissable topic for the List? Though, strictly speaking, outside the geographical and chronological limitations of the List, because the culture of the western mountain man evolved, in many respects, from the culture of the Kentucky frontiersman, would a discussion of the latter be out of place? and >I have a fair amount of information about several Kentucky >backwoodsmen/soldiers, who were part of one family, but am holding off >posting it until the Rule-maker, if there is one, says yea or nay. > ... Well, this here e-mail list administrator has been out of town for a few days, so I'm just now getting around to responding. Just back from a winter snowshoe-in camp, up in the Bear River Range of SE Idaho. When the camp fire finally melted all the way to the ground, we saw that the snow was about six feet deep. Shinin times! Anyway, as far as appropriate topics for this list, our main focus is the history of the mountain men in the Rocky Mountains during the early 19th century, and in equipment and living history skills related to that period and place. Topics directly related to that, like the late 18th century frontiersmen are a little off-center, but are close enough to be welcome. By the way, I don't know of any other e-mail lists specializing in the 18th century eastern frontiersmen, but perhaps there is one - I bet there's enough interest. While we're at it , lets talk about some other topics we tend to get on may be more appropriate to other e-mail lists. Although many of us use muzzleloading fire arms, technical discussions about gunsmithing, optimum loads, rules for competition, etc, can get quite involved, and there are one or two other excellent e-mail lists devoted to that. I'd suggest we focus our muzzleloader discussions on this list on their historical aspects, and appropriate use in living history activities. Another topic that can get very heated and _way_ off-topic are discussions about gun control and anti-hunting laws. There are other, very active mailing lists covering these, so lets not get too deep into that here, even though a lot of us are concerned about these issues. If anybody has any comments or suggestions on the operation of this e-mail list, please e-mail me on the side - drudy@xmission.com . - although I apologize in advance that I won't be able to respond to all messages. YMHOS Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 16 Feb 1998 20:11:20 -0700 Who was this Susan Magoffin, and where do I read about her trip? My great-great grandfather traveled the Santa Fe trail both ways in 1846, then traveled it both ways again in 1847. He kept a pretty good journal, but I don't recall him writing anything about running into Susan and her pyramid tent. He did mention in his journal on a number of occasions, however, that he didn't have any tent and wished that he did. He once weather a four-day blizzard under an overhanging river bank. Got so cold it froze their mules tails. Must of had a fire under that overhanging river bank because he kept the ink thawed out long enough to write in his journal. Can't build a fire in pyramid tent. Wonder if Susan would have kept him warm and the ink unthawed inside her pyramid tent. Then on the other hand, maybe he did run into Susan in her pyramid tent, but like our Commander and Chief, was enough of a gentleman to know that some stories should go untold. Tell us more about this Susan. I stand prepared to revise the family history. -----Original Message----- >Susan Magoffin used a one pole pyramid on her trip down the Santa Fe >trail in 1846. Don Keas > > >David Tippets wrote: >>Dear Zaz, et al, >> >>I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically >>because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at >>least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it >>wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western >emigration >>period. >> >>Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages >>11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >>documentation. >> >>The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is >that >>it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the >background. >>As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any >of >>the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the >>British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord >paying >>Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the >>common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously >>engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. >> >>So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller >>painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be >relatively >>confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life >>weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a >jump >>to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had >>worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. >> >>There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British >>bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David >Thompson >>found their way to the Rocky Mountains. >> >>You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity >of >>the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: zaslow >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi >> >> >>>There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am >>>aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade" >by >>>Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he >>mentions >>>other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a painting >by >>>Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the book, >>"Alfred >>>Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a tent >>that >>>looks like it might be a Pyramid. >>> >>>Best Regards, >>> >>>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >>> >>>At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not >know >>>>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey >are & >>>>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has >been >>>>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one >has >>>>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. >>>> >>>>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if >i >>>>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types >of >>>>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my >>wife >>>>& i. >>>> >>>>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask >>>>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer >ya a >>>>cold 1. >>>> >>>> shootshimself >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >>RFC822 header >>----------------------------------- >> >>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >> (SMTPD32-4.03) id AC135C60210; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:53:23 MST >>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) >> id 0y4FeG-00059R-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:08 -0700 >>Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) >> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >> id 0y4FeC-00058Y-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:04 -0700 >>Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) >id >>SAA25097 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:03 >-0700 (MST) >>Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS02 [207.68.152.140] >> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >> id 0y3yOS-0005Ei-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:21:41 -0700 >>Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR02 - 207.68.143.138 by email.msn.com with >>Microsoft SMTPSVC; >> Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:21:57 -0800 >>Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.245 by email.msn.com with Microsoft > >>SMTPSVC; >> Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:24:39 -0800 >>From: "David Tippets" >>To: >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation >>Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:14:33 -0700 >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >>Message-ID: <0dbfb3924230e28UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> >>Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Precedence: bulk >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>X-UIDL: 881270094 >>Status: U >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 16 Feb 1998 20:12:08 -0800 Michael Pierce wrote: > IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE > ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND > OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION. EVEN TO INCLUDE THE > PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN. Dean, Is this possible? I have a couple of originals that I could send jpegs of, but where would I send them etc. Dale Nelson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Living Documentation Date: 16 Feb 1998 21:05:46 -0800 (PST) David, Sounds a lot like what I want to do this summer (if I can get the time off my new job.) I want to go on a 5 - 7 day horse trip with only the bare essentials. Not sure where I will go or with whom. If a pack animal is to be used, will depend on how many are on the trip. If I go light, I can get away with carrying everything in my saddle bags and bed roll (which is how I would perfer to go.) I have made shelters like what you are speaking of on primative backpacking trips and its not that big a deal to do. Just need to take the time to do it right (and be in an area where there are materials that can be used to build a shelter.) I would never carry a tent (documented or not) on a horse trip because it is too heavy. Besides, a comfortable and adequate shelter could usually be made from a combination of either canvas tarps, blankets and/or natural materials. The only thing I would say is, it doesn't have to be a competition; I'd do it because I wanted to. I really only compete against myself anymore. As far as documenting any of this stuff, I really agree with Pat. Common sense will tell you if it is historically correct of not. Just because it is documented to have existed, doesn't mean they had it in the mountains at this time. There are lots of things which have been documented to have existed in "civilization," and might have been seen once or twice in the mountains, but that is the exception and not the rule. Just try and imagine if you could live for 150 more years and you saw someone trying to re-enact the 1990s dressed in all designer clothes from Paris. Wouldn't you think it was funny if they tried to represent their clothes as everyday dress that was commonly warn? Anyway, you may be part of the group that does not even care. Many don't and just want to have a good time, historically correct or not. I don't want to get started on this topic. As you can see I can go on and on. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 At 08:55 AM 2/16/98 -0700, you wrote: >Jerry, > >I'm actually feeling pretty radical on this topic of late, and am in the >mood to suggest a new way to document fur-trade period shelter types. > >This is what I suggest. Assemble 12 teams of 4 mountain people each (squaws >welcome). Each team will be assigned 4 head of riding plus 4 head of >packstock. The packstock will be loaded with everything needed for a years >trapping in the mountains, as in leaving rendezvous. Goods will be packed >in traditional mant'ied- fashion with sheeting, blanketing, pack covers, or >other period correct packing fabric. > >The contest starts at daylight with the contestents riding through >mountainous country without modern-maintained trails. They proceed through >the day to where ever they happen to be at sunset, and are then givent he >senario that an early September snowstorm is blowing in. While one member >of each team gets a fire going, the other three have to unpack the stock and >using only the pack covers and manties to build a shelter to house the group >of four through the snowstorm. > >During the night, Coyote is allowed to throw buckets of water at the team >from a distance of 10 feet. > >The next morning, judges inspect the teams and their shelters. Any shelter >that kept their team warm and dry through the night is there upon considered >a documented fur-trade era shelter -- licensed for immitation by others. > >Wonder if I could sell the idea as an event for this year's Western >Nationals? The biggest problem is most of us usually travel and camp as >though we were just the victims of a successful Blackfoot horse raid. We >might have to first walk over the mountain to Fort Hall to first trade for, >or steal, enough horses to enable us to have the contest. > >Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: photos of original artifacts Date: 16 Feb 1998 22:10:12 -0700 (MST) > > Michael Pierce wrote: > > IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE > > ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND > > OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION. EVEN TO INCLUDE THE > > PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN. > And Dale Nelson wrote: > Dean, > Is this possible? I have a couple of originals that I could send jpegs > of, but where would I send them etc. This sounds like a good idea. It usually doesn't work very well sending binary attachments to an e-mail list; better to put them on a web page and just post the address. Or e-mail them directly to me and I'll put them on a web server. It would be great to have an on-line "museum" of photos (and accompanying text) about original fur trade artifacts. I'd be glad to host (or link to) such a database as part of the "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade" web site... Dean Rudy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 16 Feb 1998 20:55:53 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3B1D.454852E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well said Pat, I have seen everything myself over 20 years of going to shoots , primitives events and re-enactment's the worst one is the Baker and Whelen lean-tos. I've seen some bakers set up that looked like a side show for traders. But I don't go to those kind of doin's anymore. This past summer at Fort Nisqually This guy and his wife came in and set up a wall tent show that took the cake. He had a camp trailer gas stove in his tent along with double bed. He had so much canvas that I was looking for the elephants to show up. To rub salt in the wound guess who was in the Tacoma news paper on the front page in color. He was asked not to come back next year. He also had more furniture in his tent then I do in my house. I didn't stick around and watch May Flower come in move him home we were broken down and gone before he started to pack. Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: Mtnman1449@aol.com : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. : Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 4:59 PM : : After all these years I still don't get why people still scratch for any small : piece of information to document (Justify) a pyramid tent. The way I see it, : you either play this game historically correct, or you don't. If you do, then : you choose a tent is eminently documentable--something like a wedge. If you : don't want to be so accurate, you choose a pyramid. I mean, why choose a : pyramid in the first place. They are about the same cost as a wedge. They : are less poles. Two less. Big deal. They set up faster. My wedge tent is : up in 7 to 10 minutes. What is this, a race? And what difference does a few : minutes set-up make? : : So I ask you, "Do you want to be historically correct?", or "Do you want to : set-up in record time so the time you have left over you can spend justifying : and looking for that one grain of support that someone, somewhere, onetime, : used a pyramid?" Whew, glad I got that off my chest, it's been crushing me. : Guess you know the way my stick floats. : Pat Surrena #1449 : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3B1D.454852E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well said Pat, I have seen = everything myself over 20 years of going to shoots , primitives events = and re-enactment's the worst one is the Baker and Whelen lean-tos. = I've seen some bakers set up that looked like a side show = for traders. But I don't go to those kind of doin's anymore. = This past summer at Fort Nisqually This guy and his wife came in = and set up a wall tent show that took the cake. He had a camp = trailer gas stove in his tent along with double bed. He had so = much canvas that I was looking for the elephants to show up. To = rub salt in the wound guess who was in the Tacoma news paper on the = front page in color. He was asked not to come back next year. = He also had more furniture in his tent then I do in my house. = I didn't stick around and watch May Flower come in move him home = we were broken down and gone before he started to pack. = Later Jon Towns
----------
: From: Mtnman1449@aol.com
: = color=3D"#000000">
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent = documentation.
: Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 4:59 PM
:
: = After all these years I still don't get why people still scratch for any = small
: piece of information to document (Justify) a pyramid tent. = The way I see it,
: you either play this game historically = correct, or you don't. If you do, then
: you choose a tent is = eminently documentable--something like a wedge. If you
: don't = want to be so accurate, you choose a pyramid. I mean, why choose = a
: pyramid in the first place. They are about the same cost as = a wedge. They
: are less poles. Two less. Big deal. = They set up faster. My wedge tent is
: up in 7 to = 10 minutes. What is this, a race? And what difference does a = few
: minutes set-up make?
:
: So I ask you, "Do = you want to be historically correct?", or "Do you want to
: = set-up in record time so the time you have left over you can spend = justifying
: and looking for that one grain of support that someone, = somewhere, onetime,
: used a pyramid?" Whew, glad I got that off = my chest, it's been crushing me.
: Guess you know the way my stick = floats.
: Pat Surrena #1449
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3B1D.454852E0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents Date: 16 Feb 1998 22:24:10 -0700 Hawk, Your analogy comparing rules of evidence to document the period correctness of rifles, compared to rules of evidence for pyramid tents, illustrates why revisiting pyramid tent documentation may not be just beating on a dead horse. If the example exposes multiple standards of documentation for different kinds of gear, then the value of periodically beating on the horse is that it reminds us to move out of our glass houses if we chose to throw stones. There seems to be two dominant schools of philosopy -- those dedicated to trying not to dwell long in glass houses once they find themselves inside, and those dedicated to explaining why they live where they do. Sounds like fun, going to a mid-1840's event at Bent's Fort; sleeping in a pyramid tent, carrying a pair of Walker Colts, riding a Santa Fe platter-horn saddle, showing off a new Hawken rifle, and listening to Kit Carson tell tales about paddling out to an island in the Great Salt Lake in an inflatable rubber boat with John C. Fremont. Then, if we get hungry, we can ride over to Pueblo and trade some Bent's Fort water melons for some bean and cabrito burritoes. After lunch we could rest under the shade of a cottonwood tree and watch the Missouri volunteer calvary parade by on their way south to spank the Mexican army. Then, as black thunder clouds loom in the west, we could beat our horses to get back to Bent's Fort and the shelter of our pyramid tents before the rain starts to fall. So many decades to live in, and so little time! To live in the decade with the pyramid tent, or to live in a decade before the pyramid tent -- that is the question. My apologies to Brother Chas who occasionally offers me the shelter of his pyramid tent. -----Original Message----- >I DO BELIEVE IN AUTHENTISITY, AND HISTORICAL RECREATION BUT AFTER >READING ALL THE RESPONSES TO THE TIPI / PYRAMID TENT ISSUE CAN ONLY STATE >WHAT A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AND DEDICATED BUCKSKINNER ONCE SAID. > >QUOTE "DALE BLACK" >IF IT WORKED AND WAS AVAILABLE IN THE MOUNTAINMEN TIME HE WOULD HAVE >USED IT AND ALWAYS KEEP IT IN THAT SPIRIT AND YOU WILL ALWAYS BE IN >ACCORDANCE WITH THE TIME YOU ARE TRYING TO DEPICT. > >THERE MUST HAVE BEEN 20 MSGS IN REFERENCE TO THIS TENT ISSUE. IN EFFECT >IF YOU DONT FEEL THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IS PERIOD THEN DONT USE IT. IF >SOMEONE SAYS IT IS NOT PERIOD THEN LOOK AT IT YOURSELF WITH AN OPEN MIND >AND IF YOUR DWELLING ISNT PROPER AND THEN ANALIZE WHAT YOU ARE TRULY >TRYING TO DO OR ACCOMPLISH. COMMON SENSE IS A KEY FACTOR IN YOUR >PORTRAYAL OF THE TIME FRAME YOU ARE TRYING TO RECREATE. > >I'M SORREY BUT I HAVE READ A LOT OF GOOD COMMENTS AND A LOT OF HISTORICAL >BACKGROUND AND DONT BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION OF >THIS SUBJECT. > >WHY NOT MAKE A LIST OF HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION OR A DATABASE OF >GUNMAKERS THAT LIVED IN THIS TIME PERIOD A COMPLETE DATABASE WOULD BE >VERY HELPFUL TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE TO RESTORE GUNS WITH LITTLE OR NO >KNOWLEDGE ABOUT A MAKERS THINKING OR MANNER OF CONSTRUCTION THAN TRYING >TO SECOND GUESS HIM. IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE >ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND >OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION. EVEN TO INCLUDE THE >PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN. > >PLEASE LIST FORGIVE ME FOR THIS FOLLY BUT IT SEEMS TO BE BEAT TO DEATH BY >NOW. > > "Hawk" >Michael Pierce >854 Glenfield Dr. >Palm Harbor, florida 34684 >1-(813) 771-1815 > >On Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:21:37 PST "Lanney Ratcliff" writes: >>I did not "defend the authenticity" of the prymid tent per se. I >>provided >>a first person account of its use in the spring of 1846 by tourist >>Francis >>Parkman during his vacation to the mountains and said that was good >>enough >>for me. You are right, the design is so basic that it may have been >>used >>by cavemen. I do own two prymids and a wall tent, but I camp most >>often >>under a square sheet of canvas. >>Lanney Ratcliff >> >>---------- >>> >>> Dear Zaz, et al, >>> >>> I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, >>basically >>> because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been >>at >>> least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if >>it >>> wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western >>emigration >>> period. >>> >>> Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much >>misinformation(pages >>> 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >>> documentation. >>> >>> The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation >>is that >>> it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the >>background. >>> As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of >>any of >>> the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, >>the >>> British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord >>paying >>> Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was >>the >>> common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was >>previously >>> engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. >>> >>> So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the >>Miller >>> painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be >>relatively >>> confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his >>life >>> weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big >>a jump >>> to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what >>had >>> worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. >>> >>> There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported >>British >>> bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David >>Thompson >>> found their way to the Rocky Mountains. >>> >>> You may have noticed that most of the people defending the >>authenticity of >>> the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: zaslow >>> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM >>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi >>> >>> >>> >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that >>I am >>> >aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur >>Trade" >>by >>> >Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he >>> mentions >>> >other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a >>painting >>by >>> >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the >>book, >>> "Alfred >>> >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a >>tent >>> that >>> >looks like it might be a Pyramid. >>> > >>> >Best Regards, >>> > >>> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >>> > >>> >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >>> >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do >>not >>know >>> >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not >>thinkthey are >>& >>> >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family >>has >>been >>> >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no >>one has >>> >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. >>> >> >>> >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & >>if i >>> >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different >>types >>of >>> >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now >>just my >>> wife >>> >>& i. >>> >> >>> >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & >>ask >>> >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might >>offer ya >>a >>> >>cold 1. >>> >> >>> >> shootshimself > > >%%%%%%%%%%%END OF MSg%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HIGH PLAINS Date: 17 Feb 1998 05:43:57 GMT If you shoot muzzleloaders or are interested in history, Texas or otherwise, the 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous may be what you're looking for. This years location is the first in the Houston, Austin, San Antonio, Corpus Christi area since 1990. Rendezvous is a collection of people from all parts of the country who are interested in recreating our history. We limit the timeframe from the French and Indian War (roughly 1750) to the end of the Rocky Mt. fur trade in 1840. =20 Tools, clothing, shelters, decorations and firearms that did not exist in the Rocky Mountains prior to 1840 are not permitted at any time. Muzzle-loading shoots, tomahawk, knife, and primitive archery contests, old-time craft demonstrations such as brain-tanning, blacksmithing, quillwork, gunstocking, bow-making, arrow-making, beading, mocassin making, leather work, flint knapping, etc will be held daily. =20 A large number of free traders will be present to supply articles ranging from custom ironwork, firearms, damascas knives, cloth, leather, tents, tipis, authentic jewelery, and whatever you might need will be there. The 1998 SWRR will be held near Shiner, Texas March 12 - 22. For the first time since 1990, the SWRR is south of spitting distance from the Red River. The SWRR is a collection of individuals who gather in one of 5 states (NM, OK, TX, AK, LA) once a year to recreate a fur-trade era encampment. Sites are selected two years in advance by the participants. The 1999 SWRR will be held in northern Oklahoma. The site of the 2000 SWRR will be determined by the participants during this rendezvous. The rendezvous is open to the public on March 14, 15 and 21 from 10am to 5pm for a $2 admission charge for those over 12 and under 60. Proper period dress, accoutrements and membership are required to enter the camp at any other time. =46or further information and a map, trader's guidelines, and the basics for rendezvous beginners, check out our web page at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus/swrr.htm If you have questions, drop the booshway (me) an email, and I'll respond as quickly as possible. =20 Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Date: 17 Feb 1998 09:12:26 -0500 Panther has a large 10x11x8 bell wedge that is great. I just ordered one to use for the shorter weenend events when it is not practicable to take the big tent and all of the poles and accoutraments with us. This is 3 poles and 16 stakes.... I think the total cost was about $425 with sod cloth and floor. YS, Addison Miller >Thanks Henry, that's good enough for me, I'm off to price a wedge tent! > >Watch yor backtrail, MB > >Henry B. Crawford wrote: > >> Sure. A wedge tent is definitely appropriate for the rendezvous period and >> well documented by darn near everyone. >> >> Most tent dealers sell the venerable wedge. >> >> Cheers, >> HBC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: photos of original artifacts Date: 17 Feb 1998 09:25:17 -0500 I too would be willing to host a WWW site for the storage and exhibiting of pix of old weapons and items, documents, etc... Addison Miller >> >> Michael Pierce wrote: >> > IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE >> > ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND >> > OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION. EVEN TO INCLUDE THE >> > PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN. >> > >And Dale Nelson wrote: >> Dean, >> Is this possible? I have a couple of originals that I could send jpegs >> of, but where would I send them etc. > > >This sounds like a good idea. It usually doesn't work very well sending >binary attachments to an e-mail list; better to put them on a web page and >just post the address. Or e-mail them directly to me and I'll put them on >a web server. It would be great to have an on-line "museum" of photos >(and accompanying text) about original fur trade artifacts. I'd be glad >to host (or link to) such a database as part of the "Mountain Men and the >Fur Trade" web site... > >Dean Rudy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: photos of original artifacts Date: 17 Feb 1998 09:17:49 -0500 DEAN I WOULD BE GLAD TO ESTABLISH AND MAINTAIN A DATABASE OF ORIGINAL WEAPONS, HORNS AND SHOOTING BAGS AND OTHER PHOTOES OF THE FUR TRADE ARTIFACTS. I WILL WORK ON ESTABLISHING A DATABASE WHERE PEOPLE COULD SEND THEIR ELECTRONIC DATA TO BE CATALOGED. GIVE ME A CALL AND WE WILL DISCUSS IT . I HAVE COPIES OF A LOT OF MY ORIGINALS ALREADY. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wdj@fox.nstn.ca Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list topics Date: 17 Feb 1998 05:41:39 +0000 I'm sure Kentucky talk would be welcome on mlml@vnet.net. It is run by Bob Spencer from KY. Also check out http://www.aye.net/~bspen/index.html. RED > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:30:51 -0700 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > From: Dean Rudy > Subject: MtMan-List: list topics > Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > At 01:23 PM 2/16/98 -0800, homanger@host.dmsc.net wrote: > ...... > Would a discussion on the equipment & weaponry of Kentucky frontiersmen > of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries be a permissable > topic for the List? Though, strictly speaking, outside the geographical > and chronological limitations of the List, because the culture of the > western mountain man evolved, in many respects, from the culture of the > Kentucky frontiersman, would a discussion of the latter be out of place? > > and > > >I have a fair amount of information about several Kentucky > >backwoodsmen/soldiers, who were part of one family, but am holding off > >posting it until the Rule-maker, if there is one, says yea or nay. > > > ... > > Well, this here e-mail list administrator has been out of town for a few > days, so I'm just now getting around to responding. Just back from a > winter snowshoe-in camp, up in the Bear River Range of SE Idaho. When the > camp fire finally melted all the way to the ground, we saw that the snow > was about six feet deep. Shinin times! > > Anyway, as far as appropriate topics for this list, our main focus is the > history of the mountain men in the Rocky Mountains during the early 19th > century, and in equipment and living history skills related to that period > and place. Topics directly related to that, like the late 18th century > frontiersmen are a little off-center, but are close enough to be welcome. > By the way, I don't know of any other e-mail lists specializing in the 18th > century eastern frontiersmen, but perhaps there is one - I bet there's > enough interest. > > While we're at it , lets talk about some other topics we tend to get on may > be more appropriate to other e-mail lists. Although many of us use > muzzleloading fire arms, technical discussions about gunsmithing, optimum > loads, rules for competition, etc, can get quite involved, and there are > one or two other excellent e-mail lists devoted to that. I'd suggest we > focus our muzzleloader discussions on this list on their historical > aspects, and appropriate use in living history activities. Another topic > that can get very heated and _way_ off-topic are discussions about gun > control and anti-hunting laws. There are other, very active mailing lists > covering these, so lets not get too deep into that here, even though a lot > of us are concerned about these issues. > > If anybody has any comments or suggestions on the operation of this e-mail > list, please e-mail me on the side - drudy@xmission.com . - although I > apologize in advance that I won't be able to respond to all messages. > > YMHOS > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com > Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Bent's Fort Date: 17 Feb 1998 09:35:48 -0600 (CST) > >Sounds like fun, going to a mid-1840's event at Bent's Fort; sleeping in a >pyramid tent, carrying a pair of Walker Colts, riding a Santa Fe >platter-horn saddle, showing off a new Hawken rifle, and listening to Kit >Carson tell tales about paddling out to an island in the Great Salt Lake in >an inflatable rubber boat with John C. Fremont. Then, if we get hungry, we >can ride over to Pueblo and trade some Bent's Fort water melons for some >bean and cabrito burritoes. After lunch we could rest under the shade of a >cottonwood tree and watch the Missouri volunteer calvary parade by on their >way south to spank the Mexican army. Then, as black thunder clouds loom in >the west, we could beat our horses to get back to Bent's Fort and the >shelter of our pyramid tents before the rain starts to fall. > That's exactly what I'm going to do come July. I just got my info on upcoming events that the Park Service is doing at Bent's, and one is the Santa Fe Trail Encampment July 24-26. Since I'm on their list of approved volunteers (aka the "A" list), I get invitations to participate. I think I'll portray a cook's helper this time. Looking forward to that one. See you on the Arkansas. >So many decades to live in, and so little time! To live in the decade with >the pyramid tent, or to live in a decade before the pyramid tent -- that is >the question. I do both. It's easier that way, and I won't be left out of events for lack of the proper equipment. I do it all from fur trade to buffalo soldier (I'm on the Fort Davis list as well.) Chers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************** "Make it so!" *************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HawkerAmm@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK Date: 17 Feb 1998 10:38:39 EST Please don't apologize. As far as I'm concerned, this is certainly an appropriate use of this list. Thank you for letting us know . We are all brothers in the eyes of Grandfather Above. Marty's loss is a loss to us all. Out thoughts are with Marty and his family and our prayers for Brian rise to Grandfather Above. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Archdale Subject: MtMan-List: Archdale information wanted Date: 17 Feb 1998 13:02:56 -0500 Hello all, = I am a new suscriber to the list and am searching for information details= of a possible ancestor of mine. I have the following information from the= Miles City STAR; "ARCHDALE DIES AT WOLF POINT Wolf Point, June 18, 1935. Henry Archdale, 73, outstanding leader and counsellor to the Assinniboine Indians, known affectionately thru- ou= t the Fort Peck agency as "The Hopper," has gone to the Happy Hunting Grounds. One of the most picturesque and remarkable figures in northeastern Montana, Archdale collapsed while conversing with his family and died instantly. Final rites were, held yesterday in the Catholic church at Oswego amid sorrowing; tribesmen and his many relatives Archdale was born Jan. 2, 1863, within the stockade of Fort Union on the Montana-Dakota line to an Indian mother and white father, Henry Archdale, an Englishman, who came to Montana territory for the American F= ur company. Though the son's education was restricted to a few months tutoring in the first school ever held at the old trading post near the present site of Wolf Point, he developed rapidly mentally and physically,= and at an early age could read and speak the white man's language. = At the age of 14 Archdale drove a freight wagon between Fort Union and Miles City and during these years his experiences were many and interesting. At one time he told of seeing a great herd of elk, perhaps 2.000, swimming the Missouri river near the mouth of the Musselshell, and= on another occasion he drove his wagon thru a great buffalo herd. At the age of 16 a rattlesnake sank its fangs into Archdale's leg and it was amputated below the knee. With crutches and artificial limbs difficul= t to obtain, he got along for years without either and thus was known as "The Hopper". For 20 years the man was an Indian interpreter for the government and in February, 1917, he and a son, James, presented testimony to a senate committee which eventually brought restitution to the Fort Peck Indians i= n the sum of $400,000. On five occasions Archdale journeyed to Washington to represent the Assinniboines in tribal matters before the Indian department or congressional leaders. He was married three times and to the several marriages fourteen children= were born." I have established that Henry's mother was called Kills Wood Woman, whom he married >>by indian custom<< in 1859. She was daughter of Got Wolf Ta= il and Walking Blue Mare. I have also established that one of the younger Henry marriages was to Nellie English, daughter of Colonel John English a= nd ? Moose ?. = If anyone can help me with unravelling this story, I would be most grateful. Peter Archdale, Clevedon, England. !^NavFont02F08A00007MGHHOA2FA7C ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: HBC today; lampwick Date: 17 Feb 1998 12:07:47 -0700 mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) wrote: >The fur trade is still with us today. Hudson's Bay Company, founded in >1670 for the sole purpose of trading furs, is still a viable trading >company, and remains the oldest corporation in North America today. Bravo! I might add a few points to update you folks south of the 49th to what the HBC is up to now. They no longer trade in furs (aside from fur coats); instead, they operate a chain of department stores as "The Bay" (but their formal name is still the "Company of Adventurers Trading into Hudson's Bay", and their 1670 charter is a prized possession). The Bay bought the Zellers discount department stores about 20 years ago; a few weeks ago, they bought K-Mart Canada. I believe fur trading and general stores are still carried on by the Northern Stores; this was the fur trading branch of the Bay in northern Canada until the Bay spun it off into its own separate division. The Northern Stores are now independent and operate under the name "North West Company" (which they are historically entitled to!). Three or four years ago, the Bay donated all their archival material and collections to the Manitoba Museum of Man & Nature in Winnipeg, along with the money to build a new wing to store & display it all. The Manitoba Museum also holds the full-size reproduction of the Nonsuch, the ship that carried on the HBC's first successful trading voyage to Hudson's Bay in 1668-1669. The reproduction was built in 1970 for the 300th anniversary of the HBC, and reenacted the trans-Atlantic voyage. Lampwick for snowshoes? I've studied lots of inventories and lists of trade goods for the North West Company and HBC dating to the 1774-1821 time period, and I haven't seen lamp wick listed. However, "gartering" is a common trade item that could well have been used to lace on snowshoes in the way David Tippets described. Gartering (also called ferreting) is a kind of coarse ribbon or tape meant to be cut to length and used as garters. Canadian fur traders imported it in very long pieces, easily 8 feet or more. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 17 Feb 1998 21:04:29 EST David-- More about Susan Magoffin??? Read "Down the Santa Fe Trail and into Mexico"' the diary of Ssuan Shelby Magoffin, 1846-47, published by Univ. of Nebraska Press, Bison Books, . What was your great, great grandfathers name? I'll see if she mentions him is her diary!! Happy reading. pat surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents Date: 17 Feb 1998 16:53:41 -0800 David Tippets wrote: > bean and cabrito burritoes. Pyramid schmiramid, those sound good!!! (okay, I'll behave myself now...my belly had to say that!) MB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bob killingsworth Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #21 Date: 17 Feb 1998 16:04:23 -0800 Tom Sherman wrote: > > i would like info on idaho events this year or any others in montana or > wyoming need something to look forward to only three more months of > winter left here.... Hi Tom, Please contact me off list if you would be interested in our ronny at the 1810-11 site of Maj. Andrew Henry's winter camp on Conant Creek near present day St. Anthony, Id. We are the Ft. Henry Buckskinners. Watch yer top knot, Soaring Eagle(Bob Killingsworth) pastor@srv.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dammiller@juno.com (David A. Miller) Subject: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man Clothing circa 1816-1825 Date: 17 Feb 1998 17:49:59 -0800 Ho the Camp!!!! I have a question that stays on my mind, even after countless times reviewing the threads of the past discussions. So for one last time, I want to touch this question as to: What "Pants and Shirts" would one find on a person working the fur trade in the rocky mountains during the years stated in the subject line? I know that some would leave the settlements with their cloth shirts and shoes, but after being in the mountains (not counting rendezvous times) what would you see if you were to cross an individual in the every day work habits? Was he all in leather. I mean, it has been well extablished that if he were to have leather, it would more than likely be of the brain tanned variety.......Did he where it as well? If so, how much of the wardrobe was entirely of leather? If not, then what was he using? and how did he come by it? Was there other types of tanned leather in the "Rocky Mountains"? I know what can be found in the east, But I live here in the Rockies, and want what was HERE. I am looking for the documentation for this subject, as I am planning to develop a persona of this era (after reading your many messages of persona developing on this service). Thanks, in advance, and I hope that I didn't drive to many of you old timers to drink with this "never ending" questioning. Dave _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 17 Feb 1998 21:44:18 EST Hello, Many thanks to those who gave me advice on log homes. Now I need the proper channels for this. Since I am restricted to Juno I've been unable to contact the proper e-mailing lists. If anyone knows of a good e-mail list please do let me know as it is pertaining to log cabin restoration or old home restorations. Am interested in talking with indiviuals who do this for a living and would like an apprentice...wouldn't mind relocating within reasonable distances. Have had experience in new house building but am interested in either restoration of log homes or old homes also new houses reproductions. Have gotten some info on one person in Ohio who does this and also another person in Penn. as well. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 17 Feb 1998 10:09:27 PST Sorry you were being crushed----hopefully your tongue was firmly planted in your cheek. What constitutes " historically correct"? If it WAS used, even if only once by one person then is it not historically correct? Easy setup is just that--easy--no, it is not a race. If common useage is the criterion to use then we all should simply roll up in a blanket on the ground as most trappers did. I use my pyramid tent only at buckskinner club rendezvous (never been to a "Rondy") in the midst of tents and accouterments of all kinds, the origins of some of which can be traced no further back than the turn of THIS century. I still manage to have fun, which is why I go in the first place. This whole silly flap is traceable to people answering someone's question of how to transport a tipi to rendezvous with a compact car, and their suggesting that there are other useable tents that can be much more easily carried. I wonder if there was ever a single mountaineer who carried around a tipi while plying his trade. I don't remember reading any journal that suggests that ( but I love to see tipis scattered around a camp). I have read many accounts of trappers wintering with friendly Indians and sleeping in tipis, but many others built crude huts and semi-enclosed lean-to's. I would love to hear those men laugh at this discussion. Lanney Ratcliff ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "L. A. Romsa" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents Date: 17 Feb 1998 13:47:58 -0700 Working to play(period correct) may be fun and exciting, but this = thread is reminding me of music. The old classical musicians just played = the music they felt. Years later, people started analyzing what they did = and why, and set rules! Did these players stick to these rules or did they just play what they = felt? In other words,, Didi the mountain man worry about rules or did they use = what ever means they could thing of, or copy, to make life, as it was, = easier? Some Mountain Men were more creative then others,,,,Don't ya = think? just a penny for my thoughts. BrokenJaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 17 Feb 1998 15:29:46 +0000 Look for the book the Diary of Susan Magoffin. It tells of her honeymoon trip as a teenage bride. David Tippets wrote: >Who was this Susan Magoffin, and where do I read about her trip? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: darlene Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 17 Feb 1998 21:50:18 -0500 dear little beaver sorry it took so long to get back to you.i don't know if everybody wants to hear the story,but hear goes. i had only been shooting b/p about 1 season when we were at a b/p shoot.i was shooting with a couple of freinds & we were talking & i forgot to put powder before the ball.dah!!!!! someone said let's give it a hot foot,& i said ok.he said that i should have enough powder to hit the target (30 yrds) & i said i don't think so.he then said well then shoot it at that tree (an ironwood,the hardest wood known to all man kind) so i did.as i pulled the trigger i could see the ball leave the barrel,it hit the tree & bounced bak & hit me in the forehead & i said oh s!!! i just shot myself.so there you have it. oh yea the only reason i did it on the list is so everyone can have a laugh. i think i know you but not quite sure.if you had an iguana at the eastern in 96 we talked alot about that. email me sometime & we can talk more. until our paths cross again your loyal servant shootshimselfAt 07:54 AM 2/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Shootshimself: I have never replyed on this site either, but I can't pass >up this time.I have been to the Eastern many times and been gate captain a >couple. I have never heard the story of how you got your name . Love to hear it. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Katona" Subject: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 17 Feb 1998 20:44:36 +0000 Jerry and the group- Traveling on just a saddle horse is really good. There is no better lesson on how to whittle your gear down to bare essentials. I did my 3 day loner on a borrowed mare in 83' in the Gila Wilderness. A great experience. Remind me some evening around a fire and I will tell you the whole story...forest fire and all. To gain a true feeling of what it was like in the old days, one must travel with one and preferably two pack critters. The way I read it is that every man had a critter for his personal belonging and another for trapping gear. It is sure a different experience! Hence the term, Hudson's Bay starts. I will be riding into the National this summer on my 16 hand appy mule and dragging two pack animals behind me. Two pack animals make life a lot easier on my 55 year old bones. Hope to see you there. Two Squaws Hiveranno AMM # 914 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man Clothing circa 1816-1825 Date: 17 Feb 1998 20:58:37 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3BE6.D1201720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- : From: David A. Miller : To: hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man Clothing circa 1816-1825 : Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 5:49 PM : : Ho the Camp!!!! : touch this question as to: What "Pants and Shirts" would one : find on a person working the fur trade in the rocky mountains during the : years stated in the subject line? : : Well here it goes read the Mt Man sketch books 1 and 2 . I am sure they were like us some could tan and some not David Thompson couldn't. Talked about throwing away Moose hides because there wasn't any women in camp to tan them. I know that the Mt Men would almost fight for the store bought cloths remember they didn't take homemec. and didn't learn how to sew. I am sure they traded with Indian women to make clothes with leather, and trade cloth which was very expensive. Read Osborne Russell's book will also help. Drop front pants and pull over shirt wool or cotton. Looks like you have got some reading ahead of you. later Jon T ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3BE6.D1201720 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----------
: From: David A. = Miller <dammiller@juno.com>
: To: hist_text@xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man = Clothing circa 1816-1825
: Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 5:49 = PM
:
: Ho the Camp!!!!
:
touch this question as to: = What "Pants and Shirts" would one
: find on a person = working the fur trade in the rocky mountains during the
: years = stated in the subject line?
:
: Well here it goes read the Mt Man = sketch books 1 and 2 . I am sure they were like us some could tan = and some not David Thompson couldn't. Talked about throwing = away Moose hides because there wasn't any women in camp to tan them. = I know that the Mt Men would almost fight for the store bought = cloths remember they didn't take homemec. and didn't learn how to sew. = I am sure they traded with Indian women to make clothes with = leather, and trade cloth which was very expensive. Read Osborne = Russell's book will also help. Drop front pants and pull over = shirt wool or cotton. Looks like you have got some reading ahead = of you. later Jon T

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3BE6.D1201720-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents-Reply Date: 17 Feb 1998 22:17:17 -0700 This has been an interesting thread - but I'd like to observe that that it's pointless to debate whether a particular style of tent should or should not be used at living history activities. Remember, e-mail list subscribers portray a wide range of historical personnas, in different time periods and geographic regions, and belong to a variety of organizations with different rules and standards of authenticity. What is valuable, though, is to share what historical information we have and let each person make their own decisions if an item is appropriate for their activites. As for Pyramid tents, a quick summary of the references I've heard mentioned so far: Francis Parkman's Journals, on the Oregon Trail in 1846 (mentions single pole tents, pg 1-425). Susan Magofin's Diary, 1846, Santa Fe Trail (pg?) A. J. Miller painting that shows what looks like a pyramid tent (Provo's tent, in "Catching Up", 1837). Has anyone mentioned Sage yet? Sage, Rufus. Rocky Mountain Life. page 37. On his way up the Platte in 1841, Sage make specific reference to a "small pyramid-shaped tent" in camp. A summary of references for wedge tents: A. J. Miller paintings that show what looks like a wedge tent ("Our Camp", "Crossing the River:moonllight" 1836) Uh, at the moment, Miller is the only wedge tent reference I can recall. Did anyone cite any other references for wedge tents that I missed? For the record, I don't use either type of tent when I can avoid it ! Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: Tipi documentation. Date: 17 Feb 1998 23:01:40 -0700 At 10:09 AM 2/17/98 PST, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: >I wonder if there was >ever a single mountaineer who carried around a tipi while plying his trade. > I don't remember reading any journal that suggests that ( but I love to >see tipis scattered around a camp). I have read many accounts of trappers >wintering with friendly Indians and sleeping in tipis, but many others >built crude huts and semi-enclosed lean-to's. >---------- > That sounds like a worthy challenge. Here are a few references I found that suggest trappers using their own lodges (not just visiting Indians). Journal of Peter Skene Ogden; Snake Expedition, 1828-1829 "Thursday 25th. ... We remained to make our tent poles(3) beyond this is no wood fit for the purpose. ... ......... Tuesday 30th Sept. Sent off 6 men with lodges to Burnt River from thence to go up River Malheur where we shall meet. ......" Editor T. C. Elliot makes the following note to the Thursday 25th entry: "These lodgepoles were destined to be dragged a long way and their marks across the Plains and mountains served to mark the track of future wagon and stage and railroads." JOURNAL OF ALEXANDER ROSS - SNAKE COUNTRY EXPEDITION, 1824 Tuesday, 10th of February. Our party was as follows: Thyery Goddin 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Joseph Vail 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Louis Paul 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses 1 lodge Francois Faniaint 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Antoine Sylvaille 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Laurent Quintal 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Joseph Annance 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Jean Bapt Gadaira 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Pierre Depot 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses Francois Rivet, interp 2 guns 6 traps 15 horses 1 lodge Alexander Ross 1 gun 6 traps 16 horses 1 lodge Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837 under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick & Co. 6 Indian Skin Lodges for Baling 1 Lodge for Packing for the Rocky Mountains Victor, Francis Fuller. River of the West (as told by Joe Meek) chap 9 "Having rested and refreshed themselves at the stream, they kept on without much delay until they reached camp in that beautiful valley of the Rocky Mountains called the New, or the South Park. While they remained in the South Park, Mr. Guthrie, one of the Rocky Mountain Company's traders, was killed by lightning. A number of persons were collected in the lodge of the Booshway, Frapp, to avoid the rising tempest, when Guthrie, who was leaning against the lodge pole, was struck by a flash of the electric current, and fell dead instantly. Frapp rushed out of the lodge, partly bewildered himself by the shock, and under the impression that Guthrie had been shot. Frapp was a German, and spoke English somewhat imperfectly. In the excitement of the moment he shouted out, " Py Gott, who did shoot Guttery ! " Accounts of Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company at Ft Hall On 18-Nov-1835, Osborne Russell purchased 1/4 of a lodge for $10.875 (chipped in with 3 companions). They spent that winter at "Mutton Hill", away from the fort. Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 17 Feb 1998 23:55:52 -0500 I think its kinda funny that at the Alafia River Ronny in Jan, there were ALL sorts of tents... from Marques, to tipis, to wall tents, to pyramid, etc... on and on... everything you can think of was there. That I know of, no one came up to anybody and told them that their tent was not "period". We were all there to have fun, and have fun we did ... SeanBear (aka Addison Miller) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 17 Feb 1998 23:38:37 -0700 Pat, Thanks for the citation on Ms. Magoffin. My progenitor on Santa Fe Trail's name was John H. Tippets. His journal is in Special Collection at the Utah State University Library in Logan, UT. It's unlikely he paused to dally with Ms. Magoffin; he didn't discover younger women for a couple of decades yet to come. Dave Tippets -----Original Message----- >David-- >More about Susan Magoffin??? Read "Down the Santa Fe Trail and into Mexico"' >the diary of Ssuan Shelby Magoffin, 1846-47, published by Univ. of Nebraska >Press, Bison Books, . What was your great, great grandfathers name? I'll see >if she mentions him is her diary!! Happy reading. >pat surrena #1449 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi documentation. Date: 18 Feb 1998 00:16:40 -0700 Dean, Didn't Ogden marry and Indian, and take her and his children with him on his expeditions? This suggests to me that if he was living in a tipi, he was living with an Indian and some half-breeds. A good share of Ogden's men also traveled with their Indian wives and families, did they not? As I recall, didn't he start his first Snake expedition with over 300 head of horses? You could move a pretty elaborate camp with that many horses. In effect, the Snake Brigade trappers always lived without he Indians because the married them and took them along to tend camp. Good idea! A few years ago, I participated in putting on the American Indian Math and Science Camp on the Flathead Reservation in Montana. Sitting around the fire one day with our tribal liaison, I observed that there wasn't much math in the Math and Science Camp. Our liaison, a Nez Perce, responded by promptly creating a story problem for the kids to solve. Roughly, this was the problem: If the camp's council lodge was made of buffalo skins instead of canvas; how many buffalo would it take, how much would it weigh, and how many horses would be required to transport the lodge? By the time the kids worked out the solution to the problem, this is what it came down to. No pack horse could carry that big of load directly on its back. The travois is required to distribute some of the load of a big skin lodge onto the the ground. Then more horses are required to transport the poles in travois fashion. That all works fine if you don't have to traverse sidehills to any significant amount. That's why major historic Indian trails, such as the Nez Perce Trail from the Palouse Prairie to the buffalo hunting grounds on the Mussleshell, go straight up and down ridges or stream bottoms. Horses can't pull heavily-laden travois across sidehills. The travois either swing downhill, or the travois start to bounce and flip over (not a good thing to subject a horse to). So the question is, would Ogden have want to slow his Snake River Brigade down by limiting their routes to places they could pull travois loaded with lodges? On the other hand, with an abundance of Indian women in camp, they could make winter lodges as winter approached. When time came to start the spring hunt, they could cut the lodges up into usable pieces of leather and once again travel faster and lighter. Dean, I recall hearing you say in the past that you thought mountain men often acquired tipis for their winter camps, but didn't use them the rest of the year. That's common sense. Happy travois trails, Dave -----Original Message----- >At 10:09 AM 2/17/98 PST, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: >>I wonder if there was >>ever a single mountaineer who carried around a tipi while plying his trade. >> I don't remember reading any journal that suggests that ( but I love to >>see tipis scattered around a camp). I have read many accounts of trappers >>wintering with friendly Indians and sleeping in tipis, but many others >>built crude huts and semi-enclosed lean-to's. >>---------- >> > >That sounds like a worthy challenge. Here are a few references I found >that suggest trappers using their own lodges (not just visiting Indians). > > > >Journal of Peter Skene Ogden; Snake Expedition, 1828-1829 >"Thursday 25th. ... We remained to make our tent poles(3) beyond this is no >wood fit for the purpose. ... >......... Tuesday 30th Sept. Sent off 6 men with lodges to Burnt River from >thence to go up River Malheur where we shall meet. ......" >Editor T. C. Elliot makes the following note to the Thursday 25th entry: >"These lodgepoles were destined to be dragged a long way and their marks >across the Plains and mountains served to mark the track of future wagon >and stage and railroads." > > >JOURNAL OF ALEXANDER ROSS - SNAKE COUNTRY EXPEDITION, 1824 >Tuesday, 10th of February. Our party was as follows: > Thyery Goddin 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Joseph Vail 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Louis Paul 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses 1 lodge > Francois Faniaint 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Antoine Sylvaille 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Laurent Quintal 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Joseph Annance 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Jean Bapt Gadaira 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Pierre Depot 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Francois Rivet, interp 2 guns 6 traps 15 horses 1 lodge > Alexander Ross 1 gun 6 traps 16 horses 1 lodge > > >Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837 under >charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick & Co. >6 Indian Skin Lodges for Baling >1 Lodge for Packing for the Rocky Mountains > > >Victor, Francis Fuller. River of the West (as told by Joe Meek) chap 9 >"Having rested and refreshed themselves at the stream, they kept on without >much delay until they reached camp in that beautiful valley of the Rocky >Mountains called the New, or the South Park. While they remained in the >South Park, Mr. Guthrie, one of the Rocky Mountain Company's traders, was >killed by lightning. A number of persons were collected in the lodge of the >Booshway, Frapp, to avoid the rising tempest, when Guthrie, who was leaning >against the lodge pole, was struck by a flash of the electric current, and >fell dead instantly. Frapp rushed out of the lodge, partly bewildered >himself by the shock, and under the impression that Guthrie had been shot. >Frapp was a German, and spoke English somewhat imperfectly. In the >excitement of the moment he shouted out, " Py Gott, who did shoot Guttery ! " > > >Accounts of Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company at Ft Hall >On 18-Nov-1835, Osborne Russell purchased 1/4 of a lodge for $10.875 >(chipped in with 3 companions). They spent that winter at "Mutton Hill", >away from the fort. > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com >Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Omanson & Hollinger Subject: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen Date: 18 Feb 1998 02:47:30 -0800 Here are a few preliminary facts on a family of Virginians who immigrated to Kentucky in the 1780s. I am only in the preliminary stages of researching them, and my sources are disorganised and of unknown reliability, being mostly family letters written about a century after the events described. I will provide further clues as I uncover them. The father of this family was Abraham Swango (anglicized from "Schwangau") a German who came over by way of Holland with his parents and two brothers in 1747, landing in Philadelphia in October of that year. The mother died on the voyage over and the father died very soon after landing. Saddled with considerable debts, the three brothers worked as indentured servants to a maker of Conestoga wagons for the next seven years. Once out of debt, the brothers seperated. William stayed on with the wagon maker until he could earn enough to lease a farm. He married a girl from Ireland, Ailsie Pyles, in 1760. Immediately thereafter the newlyweds leased a farm from George Washington in Frederick County, Virginia. They had seven children, including four sons. The three which concern us, James, Samuel and William, were born in 1762, '65 & '76 respectively. The father, Abraham, served under Washington somewhere "on the frontier" during the Revolutionary War (I haven't yet confirmed this). The eldest son, James, though but 15, joined up and served under Col Henry Lee in the Delaware area. By the fall of 1782 the family had purchased a farm in Berkeley County, Virginia (now West Va). But in the fall of 1783 the whole family pulled up stakes and joined a caravan travelling south into the Shenandoah valley and then eastward into the mountains. Their route was along the Wilderness Road, including stops at Ingles Ferry (where one account suggests that they met Mary Draper Ingles and heard first-hand her account of being captured by the Shawnee~ but I haven't tried to verify this yet), Moccasin Gap, Martin's Station, Cumberland Gap and stopped finally at Logan Station. (I haven't yet had a chance to trace this on a period map). They evidently began their journey in a Conestoga wagon but were told at Ingles Ferry that they would never get the wagon over the mountains, and so switched to a two-wheeled cart hauled by a pair of oxen. The family settled near Bryan's Fort for a couple of years, but then moved into what is now Gallatin County, a few miles west of Covington. Around 1783, James Swango, back from the war, joined the caravans travelling the Wilderness Road back and forth between Virginia and Kentucky, working as a scout, protector and hunter. Samuel Swango did the same work on the Wilderness Road for two years beginning in 1787, while William Swango worked the same route as a scout in 1801 & '02. In one letter from around 1900, a Swango relates a story told many times by an elder Swango that two of these brothers (I forget which two, but probably James & Samuel) were in a fight with Indians together and were seperated, with each believing the other had been captured and killed. In fact, both survived, but both lived to the end of their lives believing the other was dead, and each going to his grave without learning the truth. This sounds pretty implausible to me, but I'll withold judgement till I can gather further evidence one way or the other. After Samuel's stint as a scout, he married a girl from Frederick County, Va, Elizabeth Johnston (O'Banion) in December 1789. They apparently settled for a few years in Virginia, had two children, including a boy, Abraham, born in 1790 (about which we will hear more later). In 1794 they joined a caravan travelling into Kentucky, which included the Trimble, O'Hair, Murphy, Lacy, Landsaw and Kash families. Samuel and Elizabeth settled near Mt Sterling, had a couple more girls, then moved to better hunting territory on the Red River in Powell County 1797. This was frontier country, with no established communities, though there were neighbors. An account of Samuel's life at this time states that the economy was largely barter, clothes were chiefly of deerskin, food was centered around corn and game, including bear, from which they also used grease and skins for rugs, coats and even temporary roof thatching. The same account mentions too that Samuel's most essential possession was (natch) his muzzleloader. I'll provide more information as I accumulate it. One Swango was with George Rogers Clark at Vincennes, and Samuel's son, Abraham, fought against the British and combined tribes associated with Tecumseh in upper Michigan, after which he took a boat down the Ohio and Mississippi where he stood with other Kentuckians under Jackson and stopped the British at New Orleans. Details to follow. I would be greatly obliged to the List for any speculation or tips for further research regarding the probable weapons, garb & equipment of the Swango brothers in their careers as scouts on the Wilderness Road between 1783~1802 and on the Kentucky frontier in the 1790s. Also suggestions for replicating the same. I have begun shopping around hereabouts (Morgantown, West Virginia) for a vintage late 18th-c. or early 19th-c. muzzleloader, as many were made in this region and they still surface. I assume all responsibility for any historical errors & ignorances in the above account, and will accept all chastisement, ridicule & correction with good grace. I'm strictly a novice in these matters and fully expect to be set straight on a regular basis. Bradley Omanson, great-great-great-great-great grandson of Samuel Swango ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HBC today; lampwick Date: 18 Feb 1998 00:54:49 -0700 Angela, You've come through again. I've been wondering where I could get more information on gartering. Where's the mother load on this one? Did gartering come with decorative patterns during the pre-1821 period that you've studied? Craig McDonald currently sells lampwick in bulk. The Nothwest Company has, so far, been a big disappointment to me in that they don't seem to have much interest in serving serious modern or traditional outdoor needs. For shame -- you'd think that they'd at least carry crooked knives and duffle socks. They just don't make trading posts like they used to. Dave -----Original Message----- >mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) wrote: >>The fur trade is still with us today. Hudson's Bay Company, founded in >>1670 for the sole purpose of trading furs, is still a viable trading >>company, and remains the oldest corporation in North America today. > >Bravo! I might add a few points to update you folks south of the 49th to >what the HBC is up to now. They no longer trade in furs (aside from fur >coats); instead, they operate a chain of department stores as "The Bay" (but >their formal name is still the "Company of Adventurers Trading into Hudson's >Bay", and their 1670 charter is a prized possession). The Bay bought the >Zellers discount department stores about 20 years ago; a few weeks ago, they >bought K-Mart Canada. I believe fur trading and general stores are still >carried on by the Northern Stores; this was the fur trading branch of the >Bay in northern Canada until the Bay spun it off into its own separate >division. The Northern Stores are now independent and operate under the name >"North West Company" (which they are historically entitled to!). > >Three or four years ago, the Bay donated all their archival material and >collections to the Manitoba Museum of Man & Nature in Winnipeg, along with >the money to build a new wing to store & display it all. The Manitoba Museum >also holds the full-size reproduction of the Nonsuch, the ship that carried >on the HBC's first successful trading voyage to Hudson's Bay in 1668-1669. >The reproduction was built in 1970 for the 300th anniversary of the HBC, and >reenacted the trans-Atlantic voyage. > >Lampwick for snowshoes? > >I've studied lots of inventories and lists of trade goods for the North West >Company and HBC dating to the 1774-1821 time period, and I haven't seen lamp >wick listed. However, "gartering" is a common trade item that could well >have been used to lace on snowshoes in the way David Tippets described. >Gartering (also called ferreting) is a kind of coarse ribbon or tape meant >to be cut to length and used as garters. Canadian fur traders imported it in >very long pieces, easily 8 feet or more. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Archdale information wanted Date: 18 Feb 1998 01:44:43 -0700 Peter, I don't know how far this will get you, but if you don't already know, maybe it will help. I'm not too familiar with the history of Fort Peck Agency, but have had some experience working with native peoples from the other agencies in Montana. Some of Archdale's 14 children could have wound with memberships at a couple of other agencies that got large numbers of Metis descendents. If all Archdale's wives were Assinoboine, however, they probably stuck pretty close to their own tribe. As the frontier era came to a close in Montana there were a lot of Metis hunter and gather groups still living off the land with a nomadic lifestyle. Generally speaking, they weren't accepted by the large Plains Indian tribes that were dominant in Montana -- the Blackfoot, Crow, and Northern Cheyene. Rocky Boy and Fort Belnap Indian Reservations were created and provided a home for the smaller tribal and Metis groups who were not accepted by the larger tribal groups. You might check the Rocky Boy and Fort Belnap membership roles to see if you can find people who share your surname. There was also a fairly large group of Metis who set up camp on the edge of the city of Great Falls, Montana, and refused to go to the reservation. They remain a distinct cultural group in Great Falls today, and are referred to as the landless or Big Sky Indians of Montana. You can get the Great Falls telephone directory online and check the names. On the mountainous western side of Montana, the Flathead and Nez Perce accepted the mixed blood children. In fact, as the Rocky Mountain rendezvous-period fur trade came to a close, many of the mixed-blood mountain men married into the Flathead and Nez Perce tribes and lived happily ever after -- so to speak. Most of these Metis, however, were probably descended from people associated with the Northwest and Hudson Bay Fur Companies who opereated trading posts in in the heart of tribal lands, rather than the American Fur Company. The American Fur Company post highest upriver on the Missouri was in the heart of Blackfoot country, and there are a few tribal members today carrying the surnames of traders, so it might not hurt to check Blackfoot tribal roles for Archdale's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Interesting Webpage Date: 18 Feb 1998 03:28:39 -0800 (PST) Hi All... Found an interesting site the other day. It's called "Thuels Relic Shop" and has photos of some actual relics from the Rendezvous era. It's at: http://www.infolink.morris.mn.us/~rbanders/relic.html Usual disclaimer of nothing in it fer me, just some interesting info, nice pieces. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK Date: 18 Feb 1998 08:06:47 EST JSeminario, Thanks for leting us know about this tradgedy. I will pray for them, and I don't say that lightly. I am a Pastor! I am glad you can help give a little comfort to a family in a time that doesn't make any sense. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi documentation. Date: 18 Feb 1998 07:12:56 PST That is good information. Thanks for taking the time. Lanney Ratcliff ---------- > At 10:09 AM 2/17/98 PST, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > >I wonder if there was > >ever a single mountaineer who carried around a tipi while plying his trade. > > I don't remember reading any journal that suggests that ( but I love to > >see tipis scattered around a camp). I have read many accounts of trappers > >wintering with friendly Indians and sleeping in tipis, but many others > >built crude huts and semi-enclosed lean-to's. > >---------- > > > > That sounds like a worthy challenge. Here are a few references I found > that suggest trappers using their own lodges (not just visiting Indians). > > > > Journal of Peter Skene Ogden; Snake Expedition, 1828-1829 > "Thursday 25th. ... We remained to make our tent poles(3) beyond this is no > wood fit for the purpose. ... > ......... Tuesday 30th Sept. Sent off 6 men with lodges to Burnt River from > thence to go up River Malheur where we shall meet. ......" > Editor T. C. Elliot makes the following note to the Thursday 25th entry: > "These lodgepoles were destined to be dragged a long way and their marks > across the Plains and mountains served to mark the track of future wagon > and stage and railroads." > > > JOURNAL OF ALEXANDER ROSS - SNAKE COUNTRY EXPEDITION, 1824 > Tuesday, 10th of February. Our party was as follows: > Thyery Goddin 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Joseph Vail 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Louis Paul 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses 1 lodge > Francois Faniaint 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Antoine Sylvaille 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Laurent Quintal 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Joseph Annance 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Jean Bapt Gadaira 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Pierre Depot 1 gun 3 traps 2 horses > Francois Rivet, interp 2 guns 6 traps 15 horses 1 lodge > Alexander Ross 1 gun 6 traps 16 horses 1 lodge > > > Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837 under > charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick & Co. > 6 Indian Skin Lodges for Baling > 1 Lodge for Packing for the Rocky Mountains > > > Victor, Francis Fuller. River of the West (as told by Joe Meek) chap 9 > "Having rested and refreshed themselves at the stream, they kept on without > much delay until they reached camp in that beautiful valley of the Rocky > Mountains called the New, or the South Park. While they remained in the > South Park, Mr. Guthrie, one of the Rocky Mountain Company's traders, was > killed by lightning. A number of persons were collected in the lodge of the > Booshway, Frapp, to avoid the rising tempest, when Guthrie, who was leaning > against the lodge pole, was struck by a flash of the electric current, and > fell dead instantly. Frapp rushed out of the lodge, partly bewildered > himself by the shock, and under the impression that Guthrie had been shot. > Frapp was a German, and spoke English somewhat imperfectly. In the > excitement of the moment he shouted out, " Py Gott, who did shoot Guttery ! " > > > Accounts of Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company at Ft Hall > On 18-Nov-1835, Osborne Russell purchased 1/4 of a lodge for $10.875 > (chipped in with 3 companions). They spent that winter at "Mutton Hill", > away from the fort. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com > Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kat Hargus Subject: Re: MtMan-List: photos of original artifacts Date: 18 Feb 1998 08:00:55 -0800 I am a historical costumer. We're re-working our web-site with plans to include vintage and antique photographs. The inclusion of the pictures of museum pieces would be a wonderful addition to the site. I'll host the guns as well, but they could have a better home on a 'history of firearms' page. Kat Hargus owner, Making Time www.makingtime.com Addison O. Miller wrote: > > I too would be willing to host a WWW site for the storage and exhibiting of > pix of old weapons and items, documents, etc... > > Addison Miller > > >> > >> Michael Pierce wrote: > >> > IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE > >> > ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND > >> > OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION. EVEN TO INCLUDE THE > >> > PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN. > >> > > > >And Dale Nelson wrote: > >> Dean, > >> Is this possible? I have a couple of originals that I could send jpegs > >> of, but where would I send them etc. > > > > > >This sounds like a good idea. It usually doesn't work very well sending > >binary attachments to an e-mail list; better to put them on a web page and > >just post the address. Or e-mail them directly to me and I'll put them on > >a web server. It would be great to have an on-line "museum" of photos > >(and accompanying text) about original fur trade artifacts. I'd be glad > >to host (or link to) such a database as part of the "Mountain Men and the > >Fur Trade" web site... > > > >Dean Rudy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Date: 18 Feb 1998 05:35:51 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3C2F.1331C440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ScanBear: most people are polite and wouldn't come and say anything about anything. Also most haven't researched enough to feel comfortable to discuss any subject. Over the years I have found out that many people don't read except magazines and not good research books. Sometime reading captions under picture isn't enough either. You have to be careful how you approach people about their gear, I fell that I have research enough to hold my own. I usually ask what time frame that they are portraying and what their persona is. Believe me a lot of people I talk to don't know what persona is. But I guess I am more forward My brothers have a tendency to talk about something and don't tell the people about their problems with their gear. Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: Addison O. Miller : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. : Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 8:55 PM : : I think its kinda funny that at the Alafia River Ronny in Jan, there were : ALL sorts of tents... from Marques, to tipis, to wall tents, to pyramid, : etc... on and on... everything you can think of was there. That I know of, : no one came up to anybody and told them that their tent was not "period". : We were all there to have fun, and have fun we did ... : : SeanBear : (aka Addison Miller) : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3C2F.1331C440 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

ScanBear: most people are polite = and wouldn't come and say anything about anything. Also most = haven't researched enough to feel comfortable to discuss any subject. = Over the years I have found out that many people don't read except = magazines and not good research books. Sometime reading captions = under picture isn't enough either. You have to be careful how you = approach people about their gear, I fell that I have research = enough to hold my own. I usually ask what time frame that they are = portraying and what their persona is. Believe me a lot of people I = talk to don't know what persona is. But I guess I am more forward = My brothers have a tendency to talk about something and don't tell the = people about their problems with their gear. Later Jon Towns =

----------
: From: Addison O. Miller = <sean@naplesnet.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent = documentation.
: Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 8:55 PM
:
: = I think its kinda funny that at the Alafia River Ronny in Jan, there = were
: ALL sorts of tents... from Marques, to tipis, to wall tents, = to pyramid,
: etc... on and on... everything you can think of was = there. That I know of,
: no one came up to anybody and told = them that their tent was not "period".
: We were all there = to have fun, and have fun we did <grin>...
:
: = SeanBear
: (aka Addison Miller)
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3C2F.1331C440-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents-Reply Date: 18 Feb 1998 07:49:27 -0700 >A summary of references for wedge tents: >A. J. Miller paintings that show what looks like a wedge tent ("Our Camp", >"Crossing the River:moonllight" 1836) > >Uh, at the moment, Miller is the only wedge tent reference I can recall. >Did anyone cite any other references for wedge tents that I missed? > >For the record, I don't use either type of tent when I can avoid it ! > Dean, I seem to recall reading somewhere that Bill Sublette ordered segmented poles for his tent(s). Don't recall if the tents themselves were identified, Anybody know the resource? Barkin Dawg Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin #1534 "Aux aliments du pays!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Beating dead horses and pyramid tents-Reply Date: 18 Feb 1998 09:37:23 -0500 great summery of the information that has been gleamed from the groop. its now decision time for those who want a pyramid tent or what. a square piece of canvis has always worked well for me along with basic woods lore. I can use my lodge when i want to show off or have room for a group and i know both are historical and period correct. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:17:17 -0700 Dean Rudy writes: > >This has been an interesting thread - but I'd like to observe that >that >it's pointless to debate whether a particular style of tent should or >should not be used at living history activities. Remember, e-mail >list >subscribers portray a wide range of historical personnas, in different >time >periods and geographic regions, and belong to a variety of >organizations >with different rules and standards of authenticity. > >What is valuable, though, is to share what historical information we >have >and let each person make their own decisions if an item is appropriate >for >their activites. > > >As for Pyramid tents, a quick summary of the references I've heard >mentioned so far: >Francis Parkman's Journals, on the Oregon Trail in 1846 (mentions >single >pole tents, pg 1-425). >Susan Magofin's Diary, 1846, Santa Fe Trail (pg?) >A. J. Miller painting that shows what looks like a pyramid tent >(Provo's >tent, in "Catching Up", 1837). > >Has anyone mentioned Sage yet? >Sage, Rufus. Rocky Mountain Life. page 37. On his way up the Platte >in >1841, Sage make specific reference to a "small pyramid-shaped tent" in >camp. > > >A summary of references for wedge tents: >A. J. Miller paintings that show what looks like a wedge tent ("Our >Camp", >"Crossing the River:moonllight" 1836) > >Uh, at the moment, Miller is the only wedge tent reference I can >recall. >Did anyone cite any other references for wedge tents that I missed? > >For the record, I don't use either type of tent when I can avoid it ! > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com >Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersmen Date: 18 Feb 1998 11:28:13 -0500 Bradley, Check out my homepage listed below and you will find several links in our area to help you along with your search. If you have specific questions I would be glad to help. I'm only about 2 hrs east of you and grew up in your area. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carlson Wagonlit Travel Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #21 Date: 18 Feb 1998 08:28:28 >Tom Sherman wrote: >> >> i would like info on idaho events this year or any others in montana or >> wyoming need something to look forward to only three more months of >> winter left here.... Tom, You can drop me a note as well for info about the North Idaho Ronnys up around the Palouse region. Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho travel@turbonet.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: MtMan-List: Dead Horses & Tipis Date: 18 Feb 1998 09:26:22 -0700 Ho the List !! Someone mentioned cutting up leather tipis into smaller pieces for summer shelters. This begs the question : What time period would be appropriate for CANVAS tipis ?? Seems to me that in the early 1800's, tipis would have been made of leather. Could be that canvas tipis are as late in the rendezvous period as a pyramid. Just a thought. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Interested in Bent Brothers etc. Date: 18 Feb 1998 12:50:25 EST Was in Taos about a week ago to do research, and enjoyed the Kit Carson and Padre Martinez museums very much. However, when I went to the professed "Governor Bent Home and Museum" I was somewhat taken aback. The house is less a museum than a curio shop - two headed sheep and the like. The only artifacts belonging to Governor Bent and his family were a leather chest and some pictures, none conserved, all dusty, and shoved in some corner. The famous "hole in the wall" that his family used to dig out the adobe when under attack in 1847 is still there - as is the poker. The poker could easily by stolen, as it just leans against a wall. Half seriously, we inquired if we could purchase the property in hopes of turning it into a genuine (and respectful) museum to the mountain men, but the gentleman handling the cash register did not think it was for sale. How DOES an interested citizen go about nominating sites with extreme historic significance for Federally protected Historic Sites? And, as the house is privately owned, am I totally out of line? Thanks.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives Date: 18 Feb 1998 11:35:37 -0700 David, I can't provide a lot more details on gartering than I did in my last posting. However, the names of the different varieties of gartering suggests that they had different patterns (eg. Scotch gartering, London gartering, Turkey gartering, "none-so-pretties".) Also, if you've learned to finger weave, that seems a very likely type of historic gartering also. Marius Barbeau's study of the ceinture flechee (voyageur sash) found that many of the old people still doing fingerweaving at the time of his study (1930's, IIRC) were using it to make garters, not sashes. As for crooked knives, if you're looking, you might try Lee Valley Tools in Ottawa. They're online (sorry, don't have the address handy--search at www.altavistacanada.com), and they carry "Austrian Carver's Hooks" which look suspiciously similar to crooked knives, in left- and right- handled models. They also carry an amazing array of tools for building log homes, and some nifty reproductions of wrought iron nails and brads (yes, they all look the same, but none of them look like modern wire-cut nails). Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Tents and "historically correct" Date: 18 Feb 1998 11:36:16 -0700 Someone asked for documentation on wedge tents and someone else was discussing tipis. Many moons ago, I did some research on historic tents of the W. Canadian fur trade (1774-1821), and published the results in Northwest Journal Vol. VI. In a nutshell, there is good documentation for both wedge tents and tipis being used by the fur traders of the HBC & NWC. In fact, a Rindisbacher painting shows bell-backed wedges being used by the Selkirk settlers on Lake Winnipeg (see Peter Newman's _Caesars of the Wilderness_ for the picture, "Cold Night Camp on Lake Winipici"). Now, just before I duck, I'd like to talk about "historically correct" in general. The phrase "historically correct" is such a loaded term. It should never be seen as a black or white thing. Really, it's all just a question of how much evidence you've been able to find, and how good that evidence is for the persona and period that you are portraying.The further away your evidence is, in time and space, from your character, the weaker it is. Let's suppose you're trying to find evidence of 'X' being used in the Rocky Mountain fur trade in year 'Y'. Evidence of item 'X' being used in England is not as strong as evidence of item X being used in the USA. Evidence of 'X' being used in the eastern fur trade is not as strong as evidence of 'X' being used in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. Evidence of 'X' being used in the Rocky Mountain fur trade in year Y+20 is not as strong as evidence of 'X' in year Y+10, or, even better, year Y-10. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's all a matter of degrees, and new evidence will turn up all the time. Sometimes you'll even have to throw out old evidence you once thought was good. But if you picture yourself working your way up a ladder (with the occasional setback thrown in), you'll have a much more realistic view of "historical correctness"--it's a journey with a destination that you may not recognize once you arrive (if you ever do). But it's a fun trip! As you find more and more evidence of 'X' in a wide variety of sources directly relevant to your study area (eg. journals, inventories, archeological finds), your confidence & knowledge about 'X' will grow. Trying to find 'X' can become like a scavenger hunt; a passing mention of 'X' in an otherwise dull text can make it more exciting. Of course, you should also keep your eyes peeled for U, V, W, & Z--never know when you might want to use _them_! "It's so simple & effective, they must've done it" and similar expressions--sorry, but not necessarily. My standard rebuttal to this is one word : trousers. Men wore them, women didn't. Why not? Women certainly could have--they had the technology, but there were cultural reasons that kept them from doing so. Another example : crusie & Betty lamps. A crusie is a very simple oil- or fat-burning lamp. It's a small round metal pan with a lip/spout (picture a restaurant tin teapot cut down till it's only an inch high). A piece of cloth wick hangs out of the spout, to keep the end of the wick out of the oil, and burns. Problem : the wick also wicks oil out of the pan, so it drips onto the floor. Solution #1 : a double crusie--a crusie with another larger crusie hanging a few inches below, to catch the drips, so the oil isn't wasted or messy. Solution #2 : the Betty lamp. A wick trough inside the lamp supports the wick so that any oil dripping from the wick drips right into the lamp again. Simple, right? Yet crusies and double-crusies were used for decades (centuries, for all I know) before this simple solution was commonly adopted. These little innovations seem obvious only with hindsight. And now I guess I'll duck! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred Northwest Journal Online: www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/nwj.html agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <"tipis@mediaone.net"@Jacksonville.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Alafia Date: 18 Feb 1998 20:50:53 -0500 Addison is right when he sail no one says anything about the tents we live in at our events. But then no one ever says anything to anyone about tents anywhere unless it is stated in their rules before event takes place. Such as no tipis at a pr-1760 event where tipis did not happen. Or other such requirements. Also Alafia never questions anything about any outfit or camp. And I am talking clothing here. Anything from 1550 to 1890 goes at the Alafia. But remember, we are all having fun and we all know it. I am having fun.......:-) and I did have fun at the 1998 event. Linda Holley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man Clothing circa 1816-1825 Date: 18 Feb 1998 20:32:52 EST Dave, >From a guy that has been there and done that......Osborne Russell writes: "his personal dress is a flannel or cotton shirt (if he is fortunate enough to obtain one, if not Antelope skin answers the purpose of over and under shirt), a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, leggins, a coat made of Blanket or Buffaloe robe a hat or Cap of wool, Buffaloe or Otter skin, his hose are pieces of Blanket lapped round his feet which are covered with a pair of Moccassins made of Dressed Deer Elk or Buffaloe skins with his long hair falling loosely over his shoulders complets his uniform...." pg 82. This should get you into most pre-1840 rondys...if ya don't bring a bring a Pyramid tent.... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Iron Head - was Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi Date: 19 Feb 1998 05:03:16 GMT On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:50:18 -0500, you wrote: > > >dear little beaver > >sorry it took so long to get back to you.i don't know if everybody wants= to >hear the story,but hear goes. >i had only been shooting b/p about 1 season when we were at a b/p = shoot.i >was shooting with a couple of freinds & we were talking & i forgot to = put >powder before the ball.dah!!!!! >someone said let's give it a hot foot,& i said ok.he said that i should >have enough powder to hit the target (30 yrds) & i said i don't think = so.he >then said well then shoot it at that tree (an ironwood,the hardest wood >known to all man kind) so i did.as i pulled the trigger i could see the >ball leave the barrel,it hit the tree & bounced bak & hit me in the >forehead & i said oh s!!! i just shot myself.so there you have it. oh = yea >the only reason i did it on the list is so everyone can have a laugh. >i think i know you but not quite sure.if you had an iguana at the = eastern >in 96 we talked alot about that. email me sometime & we can talk more. > > until our paths cross again > your loyal servant shootshimselfAt 07:54 AM 2/14/98 -0500, you = wrote: >>Dear Shootshimself: I have never replyed on this site either, but I = can't >pass >>up this time.I have been to the Eastern many times and been gate = captain a >>couple. I have never heard the story of how you got your name . Love to >hear it. Darlene, surely one of your friends has already dubbed thee and named thee, in all buckskinner circles, Iron Head, forevermore until you set this name aside or earn a better name. If they haven't, I just did. Glad you came through the experience ok. We have a fine gentleman here in Texas named Iron Chest, who also got his name the hard way. Seems many years ago some targets were set up on the butt end of an old tomahawk block for a pistol shoot. The ball bounced back, caught him in the chest, and scared the $hit out of everyone, not to mention Iron Chest, when he hit the ground. =46ortunately, it was only a bruise, but nobody shoots at the endgrain of a block of wood anymore. As I'm sure eveyone in your neck of the woods will now discharge fouled charges into nice, soft pieces of dirt. =20 Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives Date: 18 Feb 1998 22:39:31 -0700 Angela, I have the Lee Valley Tools catatlog, and think it's fantastic. However, even though their crooked knife is of the traditional HBC pattern, it is made with stainless steel and a laminated handle. I'm sure it functions well, but the tradtional authenticity has been sacrificed. But then, the HBC also went to modern materials and handled the last crooked knife they sold with a yellow plastic handle. Guess I'll have to build my own -- as soon as I can figure out how build a forge in the backyard. Dave -----Original Message----- >David, >I can't provide a lot more details on gartering than I did in my last >posting. However, the names of the different varieties of gartering suggests >that they had different patterns (eg. Scotch gartering, London gartering, >Turkey gartering, "none-so-pretties".) Also, if you've learned to finger >weave, that seems a very likely type of historic gartering also. Marius >Barbeau's study of the ceinture flechee (voyageur sash) found that many of >the old people still doing fingerweaving at the time of his study (1930's, >IIRC) were using it to make garters, not sashes. >As for crooked knives, if you're looking, you might try Lee Valley Tools in >Ottawa. They're online (sorry, don't have the address handy--search at >www.altavistacanada.com), and they carry "Austrian Carver's Hooks" which >look suspiciously similar to crooked knives, in left- and right- handled >models. They also carry an amazing array of tools for building log homes, >and some nifty reproductions of wrought iron nails and brads (yes, they all >look the same, but none of them look like modern wire-cut nails). > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents and "historically correct" Date: 18 Feb 1998 22:55:35 -0700 I was hangin with ya until ya started talkin about why women didn't wear pants, because I understand that many a bonnie ladd up in your country wore skirts instead of pants. Gets back to this XY business you were talkin about. Some have one X and one Y, and others have one X and two Y's. Think that might explain the skirt and pant confusion, and maybe even the lamp problem as well. The people with just one Y used the Cruise lamp and the people with two Y's used the Betty lamp. I'm not sure if this hypothesis has been properly tested at Oxford, but I've got a nefew over there so I'll ask him to inquire amongst the men of letters if this X and Y business is really valid. I'll report back on this later. -----Original Message----- >Someone asked for documentation on wedge tents and someone else was >discussing tipis. Many moons ago, I did some research on historic tents of >the W. Canadian fur trade (1774-1821), and published the results in >Northwest Journal Vol. VI. In a nutshell, there is good documentation for >both wedge tents and tipis being used by the fur traders of the HBC & NWC. >In fact, a Rindisbacher painting shows bell-backed wedges being used by the >Selkirk settlers on Lake Winnipeg (see Peter Newman's _Caesars of the >Wilderness_ for the picture, "Cold Night Camp on Lake Winipici"). > >Now, just before I duck, I'd like to talk about "historically correct" in >general. The phrase "historically correct" is such a loaded term. It should >never be seen as a black or white thing. Really, it's all just a question of >how much evidence you've been able to find, and how good that evidence is >for the persona and period that you are portraying.The further away your >evidence is, in time and space, from your character, the weaker it is. Let's >suppose you're trying to find evidence of 'X' being used in the Rocky >Mountain fur trade in year 'Y'. Evidence of item 'X' being used in England >is not as strong as evidence of item X being used in the USA. Evidence of >'X' being used in the eastern fur trade is not as strong as evidence of 'X' >being used in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. Evidence of 'X' being used in >the Rocky Mountain fur trade in year Y+20 is not as strong as evidence of >'X' in year Y+10, or, even better, year Y-10. I guess what I'm trying to say >is that it's all a matter of degrees, and new evidence will turn up all the >time. Sometimes you'll even have to throw out old evidence you once thought >was good. But if you picture yourself working your way up a ladder (with the >occasional setback thrown in), you'll have a much more realistic view of >"historical correctness"--it's a journey with a destination that you may not >recognize once you arrive (if you ever do). But it's a fun trip! As you find >more and more evidence of 'X' in a wide variety of sources directly relevant >to your study area (eg. journals, inventories, archeological finds), your >confidence & knowledge about 'X' will grow. Trying to find 'X' can become >like a scavenger hunt; a passing mention of 'X' in an otherwise dull text >can make it more exciting. Of course, you should also keep your eyes peeled >for U, V, W, & Z--never know when you might want to use _them_! > >"It's so simple & effective, they must've done it" and similar >expressions--sorry, but not necessarily. My standard rebuttal to this is one >word : trousers. Men wore them, women didn't. Why not? Women certainly could >have--they had the technology, but there were cultural reasons that kept >them from doing so. Another example : crusie & Betty lamps. A crusie is a >very simple oil- or fat-burning lamp. It's a small round metal pan with a >lip/spout (picture a restaurant tin teapot cut down till it's only an inch >high). A piece of cloth wick hangs out of the spout, to keep the end of the >wick out of the oil, and burns. Problem : the wick also wicks oil out of the >pan, so it drips onto the floor. Solution #1 : a double crusie--a crusie >with another larger crusie hanging a few inches below, to catch the drips, >so the oil isn't wasted or messy. Solution #2 : the Betty lamp. A wick >trough inside the lamp supports the wick so that any oil dripping from the >wick drips right into the lamp again. Simple, right? Yet crusies and >double-crusies were used for decades (centuries, for all I know) before this >simple solution was commonly adopted. These little innovations seem obvious >only with hindsight. > >And now I guess I'll duck! > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >Northwest Journal Online: www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/nwj.html >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western Mountain Man Clothing circa 1816-1825 Date: 18 Feb 1998 22:04:38 -0800 Dave: I would like to add - during the winter working (trapping) months would the dress change from that at the rendezvou? Gail ===================================== > What "Pants and Shirts" would one >find on a person working the fur trade in the rocky mountains during the >years stated in the subject line? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 19 Feb 1998 05:54:40 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3CFA.DE608540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While looking for a new tent to buy I ran across this www.tentsmiths.com/page38.htm I thought it would for reference. Jon T. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3CFA.DE608540 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

While looking for a new tent to buy I = ran across this www.tentsmiths.com/page38.htm
I thought it would for = reference. Jon T.

------=_NextPart_000_01BD3CFA.DE608540-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bent's Fort Date: 19 Feb 1998 07:17:32 -0700 I'd appreciate learning about how one gets on the volunteer list for historic sites. I don't clearly understand from your message if there's a master list or if each site has it's own volunteer list. Sounds like the good life. Too bad time and money are limiting factors for most of us. Each decade of the 19th Century has it's own attractions and seductions. I'd like to play at being a buffalo hunter. I know places to get the Sharps "Old Reliable" -- just can't find enough buffalo to make a stand. -----Original Message----- > >> >>Sounds like fun, going to a mid-1840's event at Bent's Fort; sleeping in a >>pyramid tent, carrying a pair of Walker Colts, riding a Santa Fe >>platter-horn saddle, showing off a new Hawken rifle, and listening to Kit >>Carson tell tales about paddling out to an island in the Great Salt Lake in >>an inflatable rubber boat with John C. Fremont. Then, if we get hungry, we >>can ride over to Pueblo and trade some Bent's Fort water melons for some >>bean and cabrito burritoes. After lunch we could rest under the shade of a >>cottonwood tree and watch the Missouri volunteer calvary parade by on their >>way south to spank the Mexican army. Then, as black thunder clouds loom in >>the west, we could beat our horses to get back to Bent's Fort and the >>shelter of our pyramid tents before the rain starts to fall. >> > >That's exactly what I'm going to do come July. I just got my info on >upcoming events that the Park Service is doing at Bent's, and one is the >Santa Fe Trail Encampment July 24-26. Since I'm on their list of approved >volunteers (aka the "A" list), I get invitations to participate. I think >I'll portray a cook's helper this time. Looking forward to that one. See >you on the Arkansas. > >>So many decades to live in, and so little time! To live in the decade with >>the pyramid tent, or to live in a decade before the pyramid tent -- that is >>the question. > >I do both. It's easier that way, and I won't be left out of events for >lack of the proper equipment. I do it all from fur trade to buffalo >soldier (I'm on the Fort Davis list as well.) > >Chers, >HBC > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >************** "Make it so!" *************** > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interested in Bent Brothers etc. Date: 19 Feb 1998 11:55:33 EST I too have visited the sites in Taos on many occasions and feelthe same way about the Gov. Bent house--almost to the point of embarrassment. In fact, was there just last weekend including a visit at Turley's mill, where Turley and eight others were massacred just after Gob. Bent. If you are serious about buying or preserving the heritage of the Gov. Bent house, there are probably many avenues to persue. I might suggest, however, starting with Skip Miller, co-director of the Kit Carson museum just a few blocks away. He surely should have some information and likely knows the owners of the gov. Bent house. I hope you are successful. While it's in a beautiful area, it does little to support the history that occurred there. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KarmannMan@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: California Mountain Men Date: 19 Feb 1998 13:14:02 EST I live in Northern California, land of bad legislation, and I want to get into Mountain Man type activities including rendezvou's. I would appriciate any information that could come my way on these types of activites in Northern California, and maybee any organizations in the same area. Thanks Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alafia Date: 19 Feb 1998 11:23:46 -0600 (CST) >Addison is right when he sail no one says anything about the tents we >live in at our events. But then no one ever says anything to anyone >about tents anywhere unless it is stated in their rules before event >takes place. Such as no tipis at a pr-1760 event where tipis did not >happen. Or other such requirements. >Also Alafia never questions anything about any outfit or camp. And I am >talking clothing here. Anything from 1550 to 1890 goes at the Alafia. >But remember, we are all having fun and we all know it. I am having >fun.......:-) and I did have fun at the 1998 event. > >Linda Holley What's Alafia? ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Archdale Subject: MtMan-List: Archdale info Date: 19 Feb 1998 14:25:49 -0500 >>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:44:43 -0700 >>From: "David Tippets" >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Archdale information wanted >>I don't know how far this will get you, but if you don't already know, maybe it will help<< Thank you for replying - you have given me some great leads. May I ask a couple of supplementary questions? >>You might check the Rocky Boy and Fort Belnap membership roles to see i= f you can find people who share your surname<< >>so it might not hurt to check Blackfoot tribal roles for Archdale's.<< Are these available online? How can I check these from England?? Once again, thanks for your help. Peter !^NavFont02F021B0006MGHHIdB928 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives Date: 19 Feb 1998 17:05:06 -0800 David Tippets wrote: > > even though their crooked knife is of the traditional HBC pattern, it is > made with stainless steel and a laminated handle. I'm a horseshoer, and I'm thinking that a crooked knife and a hoof knife are about the same thing. I've never actually held a "crooked knife" but photos of same look just like a hoof knife. Hoof knives are made with wooden handles, come in a couple of sizes, and are made for both the left and right handed horseshoer. You might stop by a feed store or farm supply store and see what you think. Dale Nelson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bent's Fort Date: 19 Feb 1998 17:53:26 -0600 (CST) >I'd appreciate learning about how one gets on the volunteer list for >historic sites. I don't clearly understand from your message if there's a >master list or if each site has it's own volunteer list. Each site coordinates its own list of volunteers, because different sites have different manpower and historical needs. The phone number to Bent's Fort is 719/383-5023. Talk to their VIP Coordiantor, Greg Holt. They will send you an application. You have to justify your impression and your props. You will also be required to submit photos of yourself dressed in your outfit. The Fort interprets 1846 because that was a pivotal year for the BSV company, mainly because of the War. It was also the year they have the most documentation for, with descriptions from members of Kearny's Army of the West, and eyewitness accounts by Susan Magoffin. The summer event this year will commemorate Kearny's arrival at the end of July 1846. >Sounds like the good life. Too bad time and money are limiting factors for >most of us. Each decade of the 19th Century has it's own attractions and >seductions. I'd like to play at being a buffalo hunter. I know places to >get the Sharps "Old Reliable" -- just can't find enough buffalo to make a >stand. Well, I started living history 18 years ago. In the intervening time I made an effort to try to do as many periods as possible, for professional as well as personal reasons. You'd be surprised how much stuff you can accumulate in 18 years. I do buffalo hunters, Civil War, Buffalo Soldiers, and most any civilian frontier impresion. Of course I do Mountain Man, Santa Fe Trail, Texas Army, etc. Over the past 18 years I have collected or made the equipment needed to do all these impressions correctly. I have enough clothing to outfit about 6 or 7 guys, including Civil War/Early Indian Wars uniform, civilian outfits, 'skins, boots, shoes, socs, and mocs. There is also various knives, tools, lamps, cartridge belts, hats (boy are there hats!) campware, cookware, saddles, bullet molds, tents, and books, books, books and various and sundry other things. Yep you can accumulate a lot in 18 years. But the buffalo are still scarce. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Mountain Men Date: 19 Feb 1998 17:21:36 -0800 Matt, I live in Nevada but did get a flyer on the Brushy Creek Rendezvous in the Marysville area, May 1,2,&3. The Booshway is called Bonehead and can be reached at 530-589-5549. I'll bet he'll know about Northern Caliprunia, ahhh, I mean California buckskinners. Best to ya, Medicine Bear KarmannMan@aol.com wrote: > I live in Northern California, land of bad legislation, and I want to get into > Mountain Man type activities including rendezvou's. I would appriciate any > information that could come my way on these types of activites in Northern > California, and maybee any organizations in the same area. > Thanks > Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alafia Date: 19 Feb 1998 20:37:40 -0500 Refers to the Alafia River Ronnyvous... held each Janurary near central Florida, LAsts for about 11 days. Florida Frontiersmen sponsors it. Check their www page... Addison Miller >>Addison is right when he sail no one says anything about the tents we >>live in at our events. But then no one ever says anything to anyone >>about tents anywhere unless it is stated in their rules before event >>takes place. Such as no tipis at a pr-1760 event where tipis did not >>happen. Or other such requirements. >>Also Alafia never questions anything about any outfit or camp. And I am >>talking clothing here. Anything from 1550 to 1890 goes at the Alafia. >>But remember, we are all having fun and we all know it. I am having >>fun.......:-) and I did have fun at the 1998 event. >> >>Linda Holley > > >What's Alafia? > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >************* So Long, Harry ************** > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Archdale info Date: 19 Feb 1998 21:13:00 -0700 You can check the telephone directories for the reservation areas online, and then if Archdales pop up your can look up the telephone number for the tribal offices and give them a call. There seem's to be a rapidly growing number of tribal web sites, but I haven't had occasion to check for web sites at Rocky Boy or Fort Belnap. You might want to check Longtrail Snowbird's website for link's. They live up on the Mussleshell River inbetween the Yellowstone and Missouri Rivers. -----Original Message----- >>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:44:43 -0700 >>From: "David Tippets" >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Archdale information wanted >>I don't know how far this will get you, but if you don't already know, maybe it will help<< Thank you for replying - you have given me some great leads. May I ask a couple of supplementary questions? >>You might check the Rocky Boy and Fort Belnap membership roles to see if you can find people who share your surname<< >>so it might not hurt to check Blackfoot tribal roles for Archdale's.<< Are these available online? How can I check these from England?? Once again, thanks for your help. Peter !^NavFont02F021B0006MGHHIdB928 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives Date: 20 Feb 1998 09:52:48 -0600 (MDT) Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com David Tippets wrote: > > even though their crooked knife is of the traditional HBC pattern, it is > made with stainless steel and a laminated handle. I'm a horseshoer, and I'm thinking that a crooked knife and a hoof knife are about the same thing. I've never actually held a "crooked knife" but photos of same look just like a hoof knife. Hoof knives are made with wooden handles, come in a couple of sizes, and are made for both the left and right handed horseshoer. You might stop by a feed store or farm supply store and see what you think. Dale Nelson I've got a hoof knife that I have used as a crooked knife for carving and it works very well. I do NOT know however. how differently the two would be shaped. Regards, Rick Williams ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: Clothes Date: 20 Feb 1998 10:29:27 -0800 Hello to all: Am new to the list. I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau in 1837. It is winter in the Museum scene. Can someone help me with a catelog or two for my clothes. It is unlikely that I will make them! And my wife has already said........... you know! In the scene, I am camped near a Hudson's Bay trader, so could'nt I have wool rather than buckskin? Thanks Gail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J2HEARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives Date: 20 Feb 1998 15:30:37 EST Several issues back the Museum of the Fur Trade had an extensive article of "crooked knives". Just for info. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives Date: 20 Feb 1998 15:44:52 EST In a message dated 98-02-20 00:39:21 EST, David Tippets wrote: looking for crooked knives.>> Page 120 of Panther Primatives cataloge #11 lists "Green River Knives and has a crooked blade 'Buffalo Skinner 6" blade 10 1/2' overall. The also show a Sheep Skinner with crooked blade 5 1/4" that is 9 3/4" overall. both list for under $15, both have plain wooden handle with rivits and may be close to what you are looking for. Their info phone # is 1-304-462-7718 and their order # is 1-800-487-2684. Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Crooked Knives Date: 20 Feb 1998 11:41:24 -0800 There have been a couple of recent posts on HBC Crooked knives. These are not to be confused with the crooked knives used to trim horse hooves. The HBC crooked knife blade has a bend of about 15 degrees halfway down it's length. This bend is between the back of the blade and it's cutting edge, not a 180 degree turn at the end of the blade as with the crooked knife used on horses hooves. For years (before their demise) Herters of Waseca, MN. used to offer their "Guides Crooked Knife" it was a great knife and I owned a couple of them over the years. If you were to try to picture one, about the closest thing to come to one, would be the Russell Green River "Skinning Knife". It has the radical turn in the blade, halfway down. It works great on large hides like deer, elk, buffalo and cattle. But, I find it too big for 90% of the skinning I do on beaver, otter, coon, coyote, muskrat & mink. My favorite skinning knives are the Finnish Rapala 6" fillet knife, the Gerber "Pixie" and the Case #1520 "Trapper Knife". The latter remains in my pocket year-round. Spring is right around the corner and the Voo'ing season will be here before we know it. Now is the time of year I start getting itchy to go. It's a good time to go through my gear and make sure all is in order.....at least it's something to do that's related to our hobby during these ho-hum late winter days. Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Metcalfe Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700 What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a canvas covered wood canoe or kayak? -- William Metcalfe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives Date: 20 Feb 1998 14:43:55 -0600 At 09:52 AM 2/20/98 , Rick Williams wrote: >I've got a hoof knife that I have used as a crooked knife for carving >and it works very well. I do NOT know however. how differently the >two would be shaped. > A hoof knife makes a good crooked knife, better for smaller items like noggins, ladles, spoons and such with it's tight end curl. Most commercial crooked knife blades have a much more gradual and extended curve to the tip. Some are called canoe knife. the broader sweep is better for larger relief cuts like on trenchers and canoe ribs. Canoe knives generally have a longer section of straight blade than most other crook knives. These were also called a man's knife. A Swedish carver's hook knife is another form of crooked knife. These are currently cataloged by several suppliers. In viewing several hundred old crook knives over the years I can state with certainty there is no one standard for blade curve, shape or size. They are made in left and right hand versions, having both is less useful than you'd think. Some woodcarving tool suppliers have offered crook knife blade blanks over the years. Some of the better blacksmiths make fine blades. Woodcraft Supply used to offer one from Sheffield, I haven't seen it in the catalog in years -- but, I haven't recently looked closely. Good blades can be fashioned from old pitch fork tines, industrial hacksaw blade, or I've had good luck reworking sole knife blades purchased at Leather Finding Suppliers, and old butcher knives of good steel but no particular value. Handles are a personal expression of the maker/user many old ones I've seen are exquisitely and fancifully carved. Some are very plain. Traditionally you make your own handle. John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) (by way of Dean Rudy ) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Dead Horses & Tipis Date: 20 Feb 1998 22:43:56 -0700 "Sickler, Louis L" louis.l.sickler@lmco.com wrote : > What time period would be appropriate for CANVAS tipis ?? Seems to me > that in the early 1800's,tipis would have been made of leather. Could be= =20 > canvas tipis are as late in the rendezvous period as a pyramid. >From the journal of North West Company fur trader Alexander Henry the=20 Younger, at Pembina R. post: Dec. 4, 1803. "an Indian Tent of five families took fire and was burnt to=20 the ground and every thing consumed. They had just taken Debts to the amount= =20 of near 200 Skins. The Powder was saved, but never one skin of the Goods=20 will be paid by them." (Henry & Gough, 1:151) Apr. 10, 1804. "An Indian's tent of eight families caught on Fire by the=20 carelessness of the children, and was burnt to the ground and every thing=20 consumed. The four families that were burnt out in the forepart of the=20 Winter has now again their little property once more destroyed." (Henry &=20 Gough, 1:156) As far as I know, you can't burn leather--but then, I haven't really tried! On Hudson's Bay, in 1786 (from David Thompson's memoirs) :=20 "=85parties of three or four men [are formed], each for grouse shooting,=20 snareing hares &c. Each party has a canvas tent, like a soldier's bell tent= =20 with the top cut off to let the smoke out." (Thompson's Narrative, 28) Thompson was writing for an audience that might not be at all familiar with= =20 tipis. In the Fort Chipewyan area (N. Alberta), from the journal of Royal Navy=20 Midshipman Robert Hood, 1820 : "[Copper Indian Chief Gros Pied] preserved as much distance from them [his= =20 band] as a savage state will admit, occupying a canvas tent with his two=20 wives, and carefully avoiding all manual labour." (Hood, 138) What does this all mean? Well, I wouldn't call it proof, but it doesn't rule= =20 canvas tipis out, either. However, it is equally clear from the rest of my= =20 reading that leather was the usual material for all kinds of tents=20 (especially tipis) in my period (W. Canada, 1774-1821). Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: earlalan@srv.net (Allen Hall) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes Date: 20 Feb 1998 23:18:38 -0700 (MST) Hello the list, >> I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau in >1837. It is winter in the Museum scene. > Check out Osborne Russels book, "Journal of a Trapper". He was here in that year, on the Snake River Plateau. Good luck, Allen Hall in Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes Date: 21 Feb 1998 06:17:05 -0800 (PST) Gail, I am not an expert on Hudson Bay traders, but would say it would be fine to use wool since that would have been perfered anyway in winter. As far as clothes, what kind of money are you willing to spend? Wool cloth is not cheap and to buy already made clothes could cost well into the hundreds of dollars or even thousands (if you wanted to get very elaborate.) A book you might want to look into (because it has a lot of drawings) would be "Volume 1. The Fur Trade, A Sketchbook of the American Mountain Men" by Ted Spring. Track of the Wolf publishes it and it can be bought through their catalog at Track of the Wolf, Box 6, Osseo, MN 55369 Phone (612) 424-2500. their catalog is good and I would also recomment the Dixie catalog (which I don't have their address handy, but I believe they have a web site. Other books would be any of the Fur Trade Sketchbooks or Books of Buckskinning. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 At 10:29 AM 2/20/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hello to all: > Am new to the list. > > I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau in >1837. It is winter in the Museum scene. > > Can someone help me with a catelog or two for my clothes. It is unlikely >that I will make them! And my wife has already said........... you know! >In the scene, I am camped near a Hudson's Bay trader, so could'nt I have >wool rather than buckskin? > > Thanks >Gail > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtmannh@juno.com (charles l chalk) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 21 Feb 1998 09:47:59 -0500 Bill, Contact the Old Town Canoe Co. in Old Town, Maine. They carry all supplies to rework old canvas canoes including copper nails and some great literature. Did one myself a few years back. Plan on hard work and some bloody knuckles as you strech the canvas! Charles Chalk Merrimack, N.H. 03054 On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700 William Metcalfe writes: >What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a >canvas >covered wood canoe or kayak? > >-- >William Metcalfe > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <"tipis@mediaone.net"@Jacksonville.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Burning leather??? Date: 21 Feb 1998 14:06:18 -0500 OH! YES! you can burn leather. Just ask any of out brain tanners out there who have royalllllly screwed up smoking a hide. As the hide get dried out it burn. Just imagine the fires is these leather tipis and all the residue that has built up in the top area. It will burn. I lost a canvas one to fire and can imagine a leather one going up. Also....the earliest documentation I have on cloth tipis goes to about 1856....and that is just in a passing journal. But we use cloth today because who has 10.000$ to buy a buffalo hide tipi??????? Any lottery winners out there???? Linda Holley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Amos Polk--- gunmaker Date: 21 Feb 1998 19:34:43 -0500 MtMan list: can anyone provide any info about Amos Polk gunmaker--- type or style of rifles made, his working period, his location in this country, any info would be appreciated. I have exhausted my books that i have available and cannot find any info about this gunmaker. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 22 Feb 1998 15:29:42 EST In a message dated 98-02-21 18:37:56 EST, you write: << Contact the Old Town Canoe Co. in Old Town, Maine. They carry all supplies to rework old canvas canoes including copper nails and some great literature. >> They also build canoes -- some realy fine ones from what I understand. Not sure if they'll do bark, but they do do the old style canvas canoes. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jack-scratch@juno.com (Richard D Heyen) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 22 Feb 1998 15:14:12 EST I would think originaly some variety of pine tar would have been used. Of course the early mountain men didn't have to pack there canoes into or on yop of their suburbans, etc. Pine tar would be some what messy. I would recomend looking into some of the historical milk paints if you can find them. I don't know haw they react to water once dry but I believe that they would seal up canvas very well. I have been told this is called japaning. Milk paints date back to 1700's and earlier so they should fit any period your doing and I believe japaning goes back to the 1200's. Drew Heyen jack-scratch@juno.com On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700 William Metcalfe writes: >What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a >canvas >covered wood canoe or kayak? > >-- >William Metcalfe > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Horses & Tipis Date: 23 Feb 1998 06:54:27 -0700 When I mentioned cutting up hide tipis into usable pieces, I wasn't referring to using the old leather for tents, but rather for clothing and equipment. Most specifically, the best moccasins were made from the heavily smoked brain-tanned leather around the smokehole. The smoke and it's natural tars permeated the pores of the hides in the crown of the tipi and made it what was probably the most water repellent leather of that period. But also consider all the the leather gear that needed to be made and maintained by trappers and Indians living and working with horses on a daily bases. They needed bridles, pack saddles, hobbles, saddle bags, reins, trap sacks, knife sheaths, etc.. It's doubtful that much good dressed leather ever went to waste. Someone else can better address when canvas is first documented for a covering of the Plain's Indian style tipi. I have chased that one yet. Dave -----Original Message----- >Ho the List !! > >Someone mentioned cutting up leather tipis into smaller pieces for >summer shelters. This begs the question : What time period would be >appropriate for CANVAS tipis ?? Seems to me that in the early 1800's, >tipis would have been made of leather. Could be that canvas tipis are as >late in the rendezvous period as a pyramid. > >Just a thought. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 23 Feb 1998 08:14:41 -0500 I've found references to latex paint back to 1741. Find one in a colonial color and you should be fine. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 23 Feb 1998 16:27:17 -0600 At 07:14 AM 2/23/98 , Scott Allen wrote: >I've found references to latex paint back to 1741. WHERE?? John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <"tipis@mediaone.net"@Jacksonville.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Burnt tipis Date: 23 Feb 1998 18:03:38 -0500 It is very possible to burn down a tipi whether is made of canvas or buffalo hide. There is so much residue from smoky fires and the drying out of the leather that you can burn it down. Ask a brain tanner how may hides they have burned up just trying to put a nice smoke on leather. I have seen many go up in flames. Linda Holley PS>>>and I burned my own 12' lodge down to the ground by stupidity. Luckily I have 5 more to take its' place. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Harvey Subject: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 23 Feb 1998 20:57:22 -0800 Hello out there! Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns that would be of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn? Thankyou, James Harvey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 23 Feb 1998 19:04:52 EST In a message dated 98-02-23 15:56:40 EST, you write: << I've found references to latex paint back to 1741. Find one in a colonial color and you should be fine. >> could you tell what resource you got your information from? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 22 Feb 1998 20:58:42 -0600 At 02:29 PM 2/22/98 , NaugaMok@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-21 18:37:56 EST, you write: > ><< Contact the Old Town Canoe Co. in Old Town, Maine. They carry all > supplies to rework old canvas canoes including copper nails and some > great literature. >> > >They also build canoes -- some realy fine ones from what I understand. Not >sure if they'll do bark, but they do do the old style canvas canoes. >NM > Don't think Old Town ever built a birch bark canoe. They have built some fine boats including a beautiful 12' cedar strip boat many years ago. I do know where there is a nice 15' birchbark ready for the water -- if anybody wants one. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 22 Feb 1998 22:54:40 -0600 At 02:14 PM 2/22/98 , Richard D Heyen wrote: >I would think originaly some variety of pine tar would have been used. Pine Tar was used for sealing birchbark canoe seams and for streamside repairs on canvas. You can buy a can from a horse veterinarian, farm co-op, or cross country ski shop. I would >recomend looking into some of the historical milk paints if you can find >them. I don't know haw they react to water once dry but I believe that >they would seal up canvas very well. I have been told this is called >japaning. Milk paints date back to 1700's and earlier so they should fit >any period your doing and I believe japaning goes back to the 1200's. Milk paint is tenacious on wood but, the casein base won't long resist saturation with water. Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done with asphaltum varnish. Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with enamel, and some call this japaning. What was called japaning in the 1200's referenced work done in Japan. A lacquering technique never widely used in this country. Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus venicifera; was the first japaning. Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names appropriated for "new and improved" materials. During the early nineteenth century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and could refer to any of several classes of materials. It depended on what was the local usage. Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based product, rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called lacquer. Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface. Some techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning. If painted with any black surface material it could be called japaning. > >On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700 William Metcalfe wrote; >>What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a >>canvas >>covered wood canoe or kayak? >> >>-- >>William Metcalfe >> An upholsterers or cobblers plier will help in stretching the canvas over the frame. An old way to finish a canvas canoe, from the early 1900's, I've not found a period reference. A thin hot hide glue size (prepared in a double boiler) is applied to shrink and seal the canvas. When perfectly dry apply two coats of the best lead and boiled linseed oil paint, colour to fancy. The inside of the canoe is sealed with two coats of spar varnish. Real versions of most of these things are not generally available because lead is toxic. Hide glue is still available. Modern alternatives would include airplane fabric dope (toxic to apply) along with the commercial sources (most likely also toxic) others have mentioned. In any case sizing the fabric with hot hide glue would be a good idea. I have seen reference to using shellac to repair tears, streamside. It is fast drying. Shellac is still available. In a bark or fabric canoe a repair kit should be standard equipment on all excursions. John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 22 Feb 1998 22:54:40 -0600 At 02:14 PM 2/22/98 , Richard D Heyen wrote: >I would think originaly some variety of pine tar would have been used. Pine Tar was used for sealing birchbark canoe seams and for streamside repairs on canvas. You can buy a can from a horse veterinarian, farm co-op, or cross country ski shop. I would >recomend looking into some of the historical milk paints if you can find >them. I don't know haw they react to water once dry but I believe that >they would seal up canvas very well. I have been told this is called >japaning. Milk paints date back to 1700's and earlier so they should fit >any period your doing and I believe japaning goes back to the 1200's. Milk paint is tenacious on wood but, the casein base won't long resist saturation with water. Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done with asphaltum varnish. Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with enamel, and some call this japaning. What was called japaning in the 1200's referenced work done in Japan. A lacquering technique never widely used in this country. Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus venicifera; was the first japaning. Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names appropriated for "new and improved" materials. During the early nineteenth century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and could refer to any of several classes of materials. It depended on what was the local usage. Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based product, rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called lacquer. Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface. Some techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning. If painted with any black surface material it could be called japaning. > >On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:27:04 -0700 William Metcalfe wrote; >>What waterproof treatment would be recommended by the list for a >>canvas >>covered wood canoe or kayak? >> >>-- >>William Metcalfe >> An upholsterers or cobblers plier will help in stretching the canvas over the frame. An old way to finish a canvas canoe, from the early 1900's, I've not found a period reference. A thin hot hide glue size (prepared in a double boiler) is applied to shrink and seal the canvas. When perfectly dry apply two coats of the best lead and boiled linseed oil paint, colour to fancy. The inside of the canoe is sealed with two coats of spar varnish. Real versions of most of these things are not generally available because lead is toxic. Hide glue is still available. Modern alternatives would include airplane fabric dope (toxic to apply) along with the commercial sources (most likely also toxic) others have mentioned. In any case sizing the fabric with hot hide glue would be a good idea. I have seen reference to using shellac to repair tears, streamside. It is fast drying. Shellac is still available. In a bark or fabric canoe a repair kit should be standard equipment on all excursions. John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 23 Feb 1998 21:10:57 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD409F.88F24B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DIXIE GUN WORKS ---------- : From: James Harvey : To: hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Cow Horn : Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 8:57 PM : : Hello out there! : : Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns that would be : of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn? : : : Thankyou, : James Harvey ------=_NextPart_000_01BD409F.88F24B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

DIXIE GUN WORKS

----------
: = color=3D"#0000FF">jkharvey@alpha.delta.edu>
: To: hist_text@xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: Cow Horn
: Date: Monday, = February 23, 1998 8:57 PM
:
: Hello out there!
:
: = Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns = that would be
: of engravable quality and large enough to use as a = powder horn?
:
:
: Thankyou,
: = James Harvey

------=_NextPart_000_01BD409F.88F24B40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 23 Feb 1998 23:19:42 -0500 BEST QUALITY HORNS AVAILABLE: in my time have found that kark wilbern 5073 townsley rd cederville ohio 45314 1(513)766- 5415 has been the best supplier of horns to me and kits that are of quality to be scrimshaw on or to carve give him a call and i am sure he can help you out in your horn needs. he also makes flat horns for those of you that might want them. he furnishes plugs with his horns. only minor work is required to get ready for scrimshaw. tell him what you want and he will do his best to furnish it. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:57:22 -0800 James Harvey writes: >Hello out there! > > Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow >horns that would be >of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn? > > > Thankyou, > James Harvey > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 23 Feb 1998 22:08:56 -0800 James Harvey wrote: > > Hello out there! > > Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns that would be of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn? > >Thankyou, >James Harvey Greetings James, Raw cow horn can be had from most any slaughter house, but you don't want to go that route, trust me. I suggest you cruse the dealers tables at the next couple rendezvous instead. Your family, friends and neighbors will thank you for it. Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dead Horses & Tipis Date: 23 Feb 1998 06:54:27 -0700 When I mentioned cutting up hide tipis into usable pieces, I wasn't referring to using the old leather for tents, but rather for clothing and equipment. Most specifically, the best moccasins were made from the heavily smoked brain-tanned leather around the smokehole. The smoke and it's natural tars permeated the pores of the hides in the crown of the tipi and made it what was probably the most water repellent leather of that period. But also consider all the the leather gear that needed to be made and maintained by trappers and Indians living and working with horses on a daily bases. They needed bridles, pack saddles, hobbles, saddle bags, reins, trap sacks, knife sheaths, etc.. It's doubtful that much good dressed leather ever went to waste. Someone else can better address when canvas is first documented for a covering of the Plain's Indian style tipi. I have chased that one yet. Dave -----Original Message----- >Ho the List !! > >Someone mentioned cutting up leather tipis into smaller pieces for >summer shelters. This begs the question : What time period would be >appropriate for CANVAS tipis ?? Seems to me that in the early 1800's, >tipis would have been made of leather. Could be that canvas tipis are as >late in the rendezvous period as a pyramid. > >Just a thought. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 23 Feb 1998 20:37:00 -0700 Scott, et al What a surprise that latex paint was used that long ago. I've been trying ot learn more about the old-fashioned milk paint that was commonly used to waterproof canvas. The powder is still sold to make your own milk paint, but I have two questions about it's properties when painted on canvas. First, does milk paint waterproof canvas as well as latex paint does? Two, does it increase the flamability of canvas as does latex paint? Any milk painters out there who have done some field testing? Thanks! -----Original Message----- >I've found references to latex paint back to 1741. Find one in a >colonial color and you should be fine. > > >Your most humble servant, >Scott Allen >Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick >Fairplay, MD >http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes Date: 23 Feb 1998 20:53:17 -0700 Zaz, Gail, et al: David Thompson's journals through his 24 years exploring the frontier for both HBC and NWC document a strong preference by both traders and Indians for wool over leather -- more when the weather was wet and cold rather than just cold. Furs are great when they are dry -- just ask an eskimo. Thompson's journals also document, however, periodically wearing their cloths into rags and having to make new clothes out of whatever was available, including tent floors. A new source of color painting that I recently discovered by Father Nicolas Point show the fashion of the day (1841 to 1847) around the Hudson Bay Company posts in NW Montana and N Idaho. His paintings are mostly of Indians, but he shows them dressed mostly in whiteman's woolen clothing similar to that pictured in crude pictures by Indians of the traders. The confirm the presence and even abundance of Scotch caps, top hats, jocky caps, capotes, and all sorts of things that many have questioned. Have fun discovering these rich sources! Dave T. -----Original Message----- >Gail, > >I am not an expert on Hudson Bay traders, but would say it would be fine to >use wool since that would have been perfered anyway in winter. > >As far as clothes, what kind of money are you willing to spend? Wool cloth >is not cheap and to buy already made clothes could cost well into the >hundreds of dollars or even thousands (if you wanted to get very elaborate.) > >A book you might want to look into (because it has a lot of drawings) would >be "Volume 1. The Fur Trade, A Sketchbook of the American Mountain Men" by >Ted Spring. Track of the Wolf publishes it and it can be bought through >their catalog at Track of the Wolf, Box 6, Osseo, MN 55369 Phone (612) >424-2500. their catalog is good and I would also recomment the Dixie >catalog (which I don't have their address handy, but I believe they have a >web site. > >Other books would be any of the Fur Trade Sketchbooks or Books of Buckskinning. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > > >At 10:29 AM 2/20/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Hello to all: >> Am new to the list. >> >> I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau in >>1837. It is winter in the Museum scene. >> >> Can someone help me with a catelog or two for my clothes. It is unlikely >>that I will make them! And my wife has already said........... you know! >>In the scene, I am camped near a Hudson's Bay trader, so could'nt I have >>wool rather than buckskin? >> >> Thanks >>Gail >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes Date: 23 Feb 1998 21:04:18 -0700 Alan, Somehow I lost track that you were the originator of this thread on HBC trader clothing. Dean's analysis of the Fort Hall trade lists will give you all the detailed information you need for what Captain Thing, Francis Ermatinger, and their buddies wore. Next time your in the neighborhood come by and I'll introduce you to my library. Boy do I have a deal for you. After you left my camp Sunday, I packed up part of my gear and was then overwhelmed by the need for a nap, which I took laying on top of my bedroll without even putting a coat on. Sometimes the sun is a wonderful thing when you can get out of the wind. I found a piece of chocolate that dropped out of my vest lying on top of the snow, and it had started to melt! Ready to start the spring beaver hunt? When does Rick get back from Colorado? Keep yer powder dry Dave -----Original Message----- >Hello the list, > >>> I am being ask to interpret a Free Trapper on the Snake River Plateau in >>1837. It is winter in the Museum scene. >> >Check out Osborne Russels book, "Journal of a Trapper". He was here in that >year, on the Snake River Plateau. > >Good luck, > >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives Date: 23 Feb 1998 21:44:46 -0700 Thanks, but we're talking about two very different kinds of knives. Although skinning knives of the buffalo hunting period were sometimes called crooked knives, we were talking about the other crooked knives used primarily as a woodworking tool for making snowshoes frames, canoes, toboggans, runnered sleds, tool handles, furniture, and just about every else constructed of wood north of the 45th paralell. For some reason they don't seem to have caught on to nearly the same degree in the Southwest or Central Rocky Mountains. If you are interested in learning about this other "crooked knife" tool, you can find it described in several of Calvic Rutstrum's books, in Ellsworth Jeager's "Wildwood Wisdom," James Hansen's "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook," Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men," Henri Vailencourt's "Making the Attikamek Snowshoe," various back issues of Beaver Magazine, and other references. The Hudson Bay Company last cataloged this crooked knife as the "canoe knife." It's design function is much the same as the farrier's knife. It is designed for superior leverage and control when pulled towards the body. I've use a farrier's knife enough to know that the design is based on a valid principle -- it works. Have fun discovering the other crooked knife. Dave -----Original Message----- >In a message dated 98-02-20 00:39:21 EST, David Tippets wrote: looking for >crooked knives.>> > >Page 120 of Panther Primatives cataloge #11 lists "Green River Knives and has >a crooked blade 'Buffalo Skinner 6" blade 10 1/2' overall. The also show a >Sheep Skinner with crooked blade 5 1/4" that is 9 3/4" overall. both list for >under $15, both have plain wooden handle with rivits and may be close to what >you are looking for. Their info phone # is 1-304-462-7718 and their order # >is 1-800-487-2684. > >Your humble servant > >C.T. Oakes > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bent's Fort Date: 23 Feb 1998 22:16:23 -0700 Henry, The outfit I work for headquatered in Fort Collins had a bunch of Bent's Fort Buffalo Soldier's do a program last week as part of a celebration of Black History Month. Is that the same bunch you play with? Dave -----Original Message----- >>I'd appreciate learning about how one gets on the volunteer list for >>historic sites. I don't clearly understand from your message if there's a >>master list or if each site has it's own volunteer list. > >Each site coordinates its own list of volunteers, because different sites >have different manpower and historical needs. The phone number to Bent's >Fort is 719/383-5023. Talk to their VIP Coordiantor, Greg Holt. They will >send you an application. You have to justify your impression and your >props. You will also be required to submit photos of yourself dressed in >your outfit. The Fort interprets 1846 because that was a pivotal year for >the BSV company, mainly because of the War. It was also the year they have >the most documentation for, with descriptions from members of Kearny's Army >of the West, and eyewitness accounts by Susan Magoffin. > >The summer event this year will commemorate Kearny's arrival at the end of >July 1846. > >>Sounds like the good life. Too bad time and money are limiting factors for >>most of us. Each decade of the 19th Century has it's own attractions and >>seductions. I'd like to play at being a buffalo hunter. I know places to >>get the Sharps "Old Reliable" -- just can't find enough buffalo to make a >>stand. > >Well, I started living history 18 years ago. In the intervening time I >made an effort to try to do as many periods as possible, for professional >as well as personal reasons. You'd be surprised how much stuff you can >accumulate in 18 years. I do buffalo hunters, Civil War, Buffalo Soldiers, >and most any civilian frontier impresion. Of course I do Mountain Man, >Santa Fe Trail, Texas Army, etc. Over the past 18 years I have collected >or made the equipment needed to do all these impressions correctly. I have >enough clothing to outfit about 6 or 7 guys, including Civil War/Early >Indian Wars uniform, civilian outfits, 'skins, boots, shoes, socs, and >mocs. There is also various knives, tools, lamps, cartridge belts, hats >(boy are there hats!) campware, cookware, saddles, bullet molds, tents, and >books, books, books and various and sundry other things. > >Yep you can accumulate a lot in 18 years. But the buffalo are still scarce. > >Cheers, >HBC > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >************* So Long, Harry ************** > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 23 Feb 1998 22:30:33 -0700 Mike, I sure agree that you can learn a lot travelling for awhile with just one horse. Tony Poovey told me that you'd put quite a few miles on a horse in the backcountry. Please share your on opinion on this. Could a person gain more insight into the life of a mountain man travelling in the wilderness for two weeks with a short string of four pack horses, or by travelling for a long weekend in the wilderness with just a saddlehorse? What say ye, Two Squaws, which teacher will teach the truest lesson -- the long ride with the short string or the short ride with no string? -----Original Message----- >Jerry and the group- >Traveling on just a saddle horse is really good. There is no better >lesson on how to whittle your gear down to bare essentials. I did my >3 day loner on a borrowed mare in 83' in the Gila Wilderness. A >great experience. Remind me some evening around a fire and I will >tell you the whole story...forest fire and all. >To gain a true feeling of what it was like in the old days, one must >travel with one and preferably two pack critters. The way I read it >is that every man had a critter for his personal belonging and >another for trapping gear. It is sure a different experience! Hence >the term, Hudson's Bay starts. >I will be riding into the National this summer on my 16 hand appy >mule and dragging two pack animals behind me. Two pack animals make >life a lot easier on my 55 year old bones. >Hope to see you there. >Two Squaws Hiveranno >AMM # 914 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Living Documentation Date: 23 Feb 1998 22:54:15 -0700 Zaz, I'm not really into competition either, but think to add an element of realism to the exercise both fatigue and time stress would be realistic factors to add to the mix. For example, this weekend we had our monthly AMM outing for the Northern Utah and Southern Idaho area. Friday night I left the road after dark on a moonless night snowshoeing on about 10-12 feet of snow and was the first one there. Needless to say, Friday night's camp was a tad chilly. Saturday, I spent most of the day moving up onto a south facing slope and setting up a good shelter and gathering lots of firewood. Saturday night I had a warm comfortable camp. But which camp was most realistic for a one-night camp? The warm camp would have been impossible had it been just one of many nights on long trail between friends with a warm lodges and fat pups. To host the shelter improvisation event and have it be meaningful, it couldn't be set in casual ideal conditions with lots of good material, lots of warm sunlight, and lots of time. If it were, it would be like going to Scout Camp instead of learning by living as the mountain men did. Nothing agin the Boy Scouts mind you, everyone has to go to kindergarten sometime. -----Original Message----- >David, > >Sounds a lot like what I want to do this summer (if I can get the time off >my new job.) I want to go on a 5 - 7 day horse trip with only the bare >essentials. Not sure where I will go or with whom. If a pack animal is to >be used, will depend on how many are on the trip. If I go light, I can get >away with carrying everything in my saddle bags and bed roll (which is how I >would perfer to go.) > >I have made shelters like what you are speaking of on primative backpacking >trips and its not that big a deal to do. Just need to take the time to do >it right (and be in an area where there are materials that can be used to >build a shelter.) I would never carry a tent (documented or not) on a horse >trip because it is too heavy. Besides, a comfortable and adequate shelter >could usually be made from a combination of either canvas tarps, blankets >and/or natural materials. > >The only thing I would say is, it doesn't have to be a competition; I'd do >it because I wanted to. I really only compete against myself anymore. > >As far as documenting any of this stuff, I really agree with Pat. Common >sense will tell you if it is historically correct of not. Just because it >is documented to have existed, doesn't mean they had it in the mountains at >this time. There are lots of things which have been documented to have >existed in "civilization," and might have been seen once or twice in the >mountains, but that is the exception and not the rule. Just try and imagine >if you could live for 150 more years and you saw someone trying to re-enact >the 1990s dressed in all designer clothes from Paris. Wouldn't you think it >was funny if they tried to represent their clothes as everyday dress that >was commonly warn? > >Anyway, you may be part of the group that does not even care. Many don't >and just want to have a good time, historically correct or not. I don't >want to get started on this topic. As you can see I can go on and on. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > > >At 08:55 AM 2/16/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Jerry, >> >>I'm actually feeling pretty radical on this topic of late, and am in the >>mood to suggest a new way to document fur-trade period shelter types. >> >>This is what I suggest. Assemble 12 teams of 4 mountain people each (squaws >>welcome). Each team will be assigned 4 head of riding plus 4 head of >>packstock. The packstock will be loaded with everything needed for a years >>trapping in the mountains, as in leaving rendezvous. Goods will be packed >>in traditional mant'ied- fashion with sheeting, blanketing, pack covers, or >>other period correct packing fabric. >> >>The contest starts at daylight with the contestents riding through >>mountainous country without modern-maintained trails. They proceed through >>the day to where ever they happen to be at sunset, and are then givent he >>senario that an early September snowstorm is blowing in. While one member >>of each team gets a fire going, the other three have to unpack the stock and >>using only the pack covers and manties to build a shelter to house the group >>of four through the snowstorm. >> >>During the night, Coyote is allowed to throw buckets of water at the team >>from a distance of 10 feet. >> >>The next morning, judges inspect the teams and their shelters. Any shelter >>that kept their team warm and dry through the night is there upon considered >>a documented fur-trade era shelter -- licensed for immitation by others. >> >>Wonder if I could sell the idea as an event for this year's Western >>Nationals? The biggest problem is most of us usually travel and camp as >>though we were just the victims of a successful Blackfoot horse raid. We >>might have to first walk over the mountain to Fort Hall to first trade for, >>or steal, enough horses to enable us to have the contest. >> >>Dave > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Earlier Pyramid tent documentation -- but, so what? Date: 23 Feb 1998 23:49:10 -0700 As per pyramid tents -- check out Tentsmiths current web site and their new addition of a line of traditional cold-weather tents made of Egyptian cotton. And here's your bonus gift, Tentsmiths has documented an individual trying to sell the pyramid tent design to the British Army's Quartermaster -- prior to the American Revolution. It was sized to hold four soldiers utilizing their four bayonets as corner stakes and one musket as an inside tent pole. Not much headroom, but efficient use of resources. The Quartermaster didn't buy if for King George's crack red-coated soldiers, but at least we know the design was being promoted well before the beginning of the rendezvous period of the fur trade. The Quartermaster, however, did buy the bell tent for use by officers -- and the bell was a standard in the war against Napoleon circa 1810. The bell tent will do everything the pyramid tent will do, and do it better than the pyramid. The bell is documented in the Northern Rockies as early as 1808, and even earlier on the Northern Plains. So why don't we see bell tents at mountain-men gatherings -- or on the western range where shepherds watch their flocks by night? Let me speculate that the bell design requires a much higher labor cost to sew, and most people who buy them don't actually live in them nowadays. The people who buy most of them pay cowboys and sheep herders to live in them. Sleeping in a tent at an occasional rendezvous is a long way away from from living in one with no other refuge to retreat to for months at a time. If I seem just a little negative about the pyramid, it's because I have lived in a couple, and found them the tent most needing to have a drainage ditch dug around them if you want to stay dry in a heavy rain. Rain just isn't much of problem where pyramid tents remain popular on the western range. And the irony is, that where rain isn't much of a problem, men often don't even bother to put the pyramid tents up at night. A friend of mine mapped all of the vegetation communities in the Absaroka Range north of Yellowstone Park. The first summer that he was engaged in the work he top packed a pyramid tent on his pack horse. The second summer he left the tent home and just pulled a mante over him whenever it rained at night. At the end of the second summer he reported that he slept just as dry at night the year he left the pyramid tent at home as he did the year he packed it, but he saved lots of time and work not packing the tent around and putting it up at night. Let's argue for the bell tent, and leave the pyramid to Nevada buckaroos and sheepherders. -----Original Message----- >I did not "defend the authenticity" of the prymid tent per se. I provided >a first person account of its use in the spring of 1846 by tourist Francis >Parkman during his vacation to the mountains and said that was good enough >for me. You are right, the design is so basic that it may have been used >by cavemen. I do own two prymids and a wall tent, but I camp most often >under a square sheet of canvas. >Lanney Ratcliff > >---------- >> >> Dear Zaz, et al, >> >> I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically >> because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at >> least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it >> wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration >> period. >> >> Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages >> 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >> documentation. >> >> The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that >> it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background. >> As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of >> the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the >> British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord paying >> Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the >> common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously >> engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. >> >> So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller >> painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be >relatively >> confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life >> weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a jump >> to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had >> worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. >> >> There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British >> bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David >Thompson >> found their way to the Rocky Mountains. >> >> You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of >> the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: zaslow >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi >> >> >> >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am >> >aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade" >by >> >Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he >> mentions >> >other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a painting >by >> >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the book, >> "Alfred >> >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a tent >> that >> >looks like it might be a Pyramid. >> > >> >Best Regards, >> > >> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >> > >> >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not >know >> >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are >& >> >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has >been >> >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has >> >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. >> >> >> >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i >> >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types >of >> >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my >> wife >> >>& i. >> >> >> >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask >> >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya >a >> >>cold 1. >> >> >> >> shootshimself >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gartering & crooked knives Date: 23 Feb 1998 22:06:36 -0700 Like Rick Williams, I started learning the crooked knife concept with a hoof knife. The local saddle shop here got a bunch of cheap Pakistani farrier knife they sold of $1.99 each. They had big hardwood handles pinned on with brass pins. I bought a few to play with and try to convert to crooked knives. This is what I believe that I discovered. The differences in blade curvature is not too significant, and in fact can be specialized for special purposes just like any othe woodworking tool. What's really different about the crooked knife is that the handles were usually individually shaped to the individual to the the hand, rather than the knife the leverage advantage. A farrier only uses his knife for about a minute on each hoof before he changes to another tool, so the handle shape isn't a big factor. On the other hand, a mountain man making a canoe paddle or a toboggen might use the crooked knife for hours on end so the hand and wrist stress can become significant, hence, the effort in perfecting the handle's angle and grip shape is rewarded. Experimenting with a cheap hoof knife is a good way to discover if the knife has advantages that a person likes for wood working. Would that we had more wood and hooves to pare down to shape, and more time to do it! Dave -----Original Message----- >At 09:52 AM 2/20/98 , Rick Williams wrote: > >>I've got a hoof knife that I have used as a crooked knife for carving >>and it works very well. I do NOT know however. how differently the >>two would be shaped. >> >A hoof knife makes a good crooked knife, better for smaller items like >noggins, ladles, spoons and such with it's tight end curl. > >Most commercial crooked knife blades have a much more gradual and extended >curve to the tip. Some are called canoe knife. the broader sweep is >better for larger relief cuts like on trenchers and canoe ribs. Canoe >knives generally have a longer section of straight blade than most other >crook knives. These were also called a man's knife. A Swedish carver's >hook knife is another form of crooked knife. These are currently cataloged >by several suppliers. > >In viewing several hundred old crook knives over the years I can state with >certainty there is no one standard for blade curve, shape or size. They >are made in left and right hand versions, having both is less useful than >you'd think. > >Some woodcarving tool suppliers have offered crook knife blade blanks over >the years. Some of the better blacksmiths make fine blades. Woodcraft >Supply used to offer one from Sheffield, I haven't seen it in the catalog >in years -- but, I haven't recently looked closely. > >Good blades can be fashioned from old pitch fork tines, industrial hacksaw >blade, or I've had good luck reworking sole knife blades purchased at >Leather Finding Suppliers, and old butcher knives of good steel but no >particular value. > >Handles are a personal expression of the maker/user many old ones I've seen >are exquisitely and fancifully carved. Some are very plain. Traditionally >you make your own handle. > >John... > >John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< >http://www.kramerize.com/ >mail to: john > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Blue Rider Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 22 Feb 1998 01:58:49 -1000 James Harvey wrote: > Hello out there! > > Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow > horns that would be > of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn? > > Thankyou, > James Harvey Try Dixie Gun Works in Union City, TN. Send 'em $5 for their huge catalog. It's worth every penny. They have the cow horns pretty cheap. Blue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bruce.mcneal@ssa.gov Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 24 Feb 1998 07:27:00 -0500 If you won't be attending a Rendezvous in the near future, one source is Tandy Leather. Check your local phone book. They usually have both raw and scraped horns. Tandy can be a bit pricey but fine in a pinch. - Bruce McNeal -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, February 23, 1998 8:57 PM Hello out there! Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns that would be of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn? Thankyou, James Harvey << File: RFC822.TXT >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning Date: 24 Feb 1998 05:36:41 -0700 Thanks for the insight on Jappaning -- how's about some more? A couple of years ago I discovered that the Fort Union Interpretive Association has documented and is now offering for sale a small personal-size cooking pot that is Jappaned tin. More recently, I 've discovered documentation of Jappaned tin eyeglass cases. The Fort Union reproduction pot was priced at $80.00, last that I checked. According to your understanding of Jappaning: Could anyone today buy the appropriate shellac and paint it on tin to achieve results equal to the Jappaned tin containers? Is protecting from rust the mail reason people used to Jappan tin? Is the Jappaned tin food safe if Jappaned on the inside of the container? Thanks for any additional information you have about Jappaning! Dave -----Original Message----- >. . . Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done >with asphaltum varnish. > >Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with >enamel, and some call this japaning. What was called japaning in the >1200's referenced work done in Japan. A lacquering technique never widely >used in this country. Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus >venicifera; was the first japaning. > >Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names >appropriated for "new and improved" materials. During the early nineteenth >century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and could >refer to any of several classes of materials. It depended on what was the >local usage. Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based product, >rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called lacquer. > >Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface. Some >techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning. If painted with any >black surface material it could be called japaning. > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe/Latex Paint Date: 24 Feb 1998 09:27:33 -0500 To all who wanted references on latex paint: The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia and The Peoples Chronology were two. They can be had from Windows 95 Bookshelf. There is one other, but I'll have to get back to you on that one. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: MtMan-List: The perils of lists Date: 24 Feb 1998 08:43:18 -0800 I think Dean can appreciate this more than anyone but thought the rest of you may get a kick out of it. Q: How many list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1,331: 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed. 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.light.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use lightbulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversey. 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.light.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 24 Feb 1998 09:57:09 -0600 (CST) >Hello out there! > > Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns that >would be >of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn? > > > Thankyou, > James Harvey Tandy Leather sells them, unless you are just looking for free ones. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Living Documentation Date: 24 Feb 1998 11:11:15 -0500 David wrote: I'm not really into competition either, but think to add an element of realism to the exercise both fatigue and time stress would be realistic factors to add to the mix. For example, this weekend we had our monthly AMM outing for the Northern Utah and Southern Idaho area. Friday night I left the road after dark on a moonless night snowshoeing on about 10-12 feet of snow and was the first one there. Needless to say, Friday night's camp was a tad chilly. Saturday, I spent most of the day moving up onto a south facing slope and setting up a good shelter and gathering lots of firewood. Saturday night I had a warm comfortable camp. But which camp was most realistic for a one-night camp? The warm camp would have been impossible had it been just one of many nights on long trail between friends with a warm lodges and fat pups. Dave, I couldn't agree more. I've spent many a night where I just rolled up in my blanket on the softest rock I could find. These type camps would have to be closer to the norm than a big cushy one while they were on the move. I love to go to rondys, but to get the real feel of what it was like, give me a scout with all I need on my back or waiting for me to put together out there on the ground. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Valley Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 24 Feb 1998 11:34:29 -0500 WHOA there just a minute... Scott A. writes "I've found references to latex paint back to 1741. Find one in a colonial color and you should be fine." You all can do whatever you want, and I'm sure that there are some who can "justify" to themselves almost anything they take a fancy to.... but before I put anything even remotely similar to today's "latex" paint on anything that I call "period" (and oh by the way, want to continue to call period), I have this driving need to know a hell of a lot more about those "references" Scott has mentioned !!!!! 1.) What are these "references" 2.) Where can they be found 3.) If the term "latex" did exist in 1741, does it have the same meaning today as it did then????? 4.) Was latex used in the Rocky Mountains prior to 1840 or known only to Boston or London or perhaps some rubber tree & white wash producing country??? Scott.... anyone?? Ron Valley, 1353 White Mountain Party ---------- From: David Tippets[SMTP:wolverine76@email.msn.com] Sent: Monday, February 23, 1998 10:37 PM To: hist_text Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Scott, et al What a surprise that latex paint was used that long ago. I've been trying ot learn more about the old-fashioned milk paint that was commonly used to waterproof canvas. The powder is still sold to make your own milk paint, but I have two questions about it's properties when painted on canvas. First, does milk paint waterproof canvas as well as latex paint does? Two, does it increase the flamability of canvas as does latex paint? Any milk painters out there who have done some field testing? Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: Scott Allen To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 1:49 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe >I've found references to latex paint back to 1741. Find one in a >colonial color and you should be fine. > > >Your most humble servant, >Scott Allen >Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick >Fairplay, MD >http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burnt tipis Date: 24 Feb 1998 10:13:43 -0700 Linda Holley <"tipis@mediaone.net"@Jacksonville.net> wrote : >It is very possible to burn down a tipi whether is made of canvas or >buffalo hide. There is so much residue from smoky fires and the drying >out of the leather that you can burn it down. Thanks, Linda, for the lesson--those first two quotes that I posted about the burning Indian tents are now off my list of possible evidence of canvas tipis. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes Date: 24 Feb 1998 10:13:55 -0700 "David Tippets" wrote: >Thompson's journals also document, however, periodically wearing their >cloths into rags and having to make new clothes out of whatever was >available, including tent floors. This is the first I've heard about tents having floors. Otherwise, I quite agree. In the late 1790's, the HBC's Peter Fidler (Thompson's fellow student),was wintering in the Athabasca and wore his clothes to shreds. He replaced his pants with leather pants made out of part of his Chipewyan host's tent, and later got a "toggy" of caribou skins dressed with the hair on, to be his winter clothing. (Don't ask me what a toggy is--I have an idea, but I'd love to have some real information.) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Harvey Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 24 Feb 1998 13:24:20 -0800 Dixie Gun Works does not have engraving (not schrimsaw, Schrimshaw is on ivoy not horn) quality horns!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 24 Feb 1998 15:19:35 EST Hello the list, There is a good book out, "The Wood & Canvas Canoe" by Jerry Stelmok and Rollin Thurlow, that covers building both canvas and birch bark canoes. It still amazes me that in the Northeast there is, or was, birch trees large enough to make a 15' canoe out of one piece of bark! I always thought it was a patch work deal... Henri Vaillancourt, of Greenville, New Hampshire makes birch bark canoes that would bring tears to a mountain mans eyes..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 24 Feb 1998 15:23:39 -0500 Well Ron, First of all, anyone who is has been on this list any length of time knows I don't just spout B.S. I rarely speak up and don't at all if I can only speculate or don't know for sure about the subject matter. I do things right and research everything before using it. If I can't document it, I don't use it! Latex was discovered early in the 18th century and incorporated into paint in 1741 (ref: The Peoples Chronology). It was also used on ships to waterproof "sheeting". I assume this was without paint because it does not mention any pigment. The hard vulcanized rubber wasn't developed until 1839, by Charles Goodyear. I've already cited other references and will provide more as soon as I can find them again. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes Date: 24 Feb 1998 14:36:54 -0700 Angela, What! Never heard of tent floors, and I thought you had Thompson's journals memorized. Not only did they have a tent floor, the floor was heavy stiff leather -- so stiff they broke their sewing needles on it before they surrendered to punching holes with an awl. Once they got those pants on, they must of walked like the tin man with diaper rash. You better go back to your Thompson, you missed one of the good parts. Dave P.S. Still waiting to hear back from Oxford for confirmation on your XY theory of historical explanation. -----Original Message----- >"David Tippets" wrote: > >>Thompson's journals also document, however, periodically wearing their >>cloths into rags and having to make new clothes out of whatever was >>available, including tent floors. > >This is the first I've heard about tents having floors. Otherwise, I quite >agree. In the late 1790's, the HBC's Peter Fidler (Thompson's fellow >student),was wintering in the Athabasca and wore his clothes to shreds. He >replaced his pants with leather pants made out of part of his Chipewyan >host's tent, and later got a "toggy" of caribou skins dressed with the hair >on, to be his winter clothing. (Don't ask me what a toggy is--I have an >idea, but I'd love to have some real information.) > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning Date: 24 Feb 1998 17:16:12 EST To the list- I thought I'd throw this food for thought into the fire...I have also heard that Jappaning is a term used for the process of piercing tin, brass or copper, commonly seen on lanterns. I was told thats its purpose was to allow light to be cast through the holes of the lantern body with the door closed, prolonging the burning time of the candle. It sounds a far piece from lacquering, enameling or coating of the metal, so I'd sure like to know. Thanks. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Hats... again Date: 24 Feb 1998 16:03:22 -0800 (PST) A while back, Charles Chalk was looking for a decent hat. Now I find meself in the same boat, er... packtrain. I'm a searching for a low crown (3 1/2 - 4"), 10x beaver, wide brim, etc. I never heard whether or not Charles found one? I know a couple of folks did not reccomend Clearwater Hats, and one person said JW Hats was a good place to look. I did call JW Hats, and was quoted a price (custom made) at $330.00 (Ack!) Dixie carries a low quality one, Jas Townsend carries about the same (wool felt), etc, etc.... Question is, has anyone located a source for non-custom, quality hats? And yes, I did check the email archives.... no help did I find there, might of missed something though. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nospammkatona@pdx.oneworld.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 24 Feb 1998 17:49:15 +0000 David - As I said in the original message, " Traveling on just a saddle horse is really good.There is no better lesson on how to whittle gear down to bare essentials." I did it for years. Mainly because I couldn't afford a string and the associated equipment, pack saddles, bigger trucks, and bigger trailers. Also, there was a lack of skills necessary to keep all of the equipment on a critter. New Mexico is littered with "Two Squaws" artifacts. If a person really wants to experience life as a mountain man traveling in the wilderness, then it is absolutely necessary to travel the long ride with the long string. A person cannot possibly fathom the amount work that is involved in taking care of that many critters until you do it. You also have to have the mind set that you are heading out and may be gone till you get back. We always have the luxury of saying...I am going for 6 days (or whatever) I will have fresh meat the first couple of night then beans or rice or, or, or. I don't believe the hivernats had menus. Course they shot what they wanted. If you have done some horse travel with just a saddle horse, then think about multiplying X4 or 5 the following; catching up, brushing out, saddleing up, packing up, diamond down, riding for hours and paying attention to what 4 or 5 are doing(instead of one) finding a camp site, unpacking, unsaddleing, brushing out, getting the hayburners on pickets (or however you choose, hobbles etc.). When all of that is done then you try to get yourself fed and get some sleep while the nervous son of a guns stomp and paw all night. I tell you, there is nothing more fun! I wouldn't trade it for the world. After 4 or 5 days of this, your just dog tired. You find that you start later in the morning, quite earlier in the afternoon and start laying over a day or two because, "the fleabags need a rest". What was everyday matter a fact for our forefathers is just flat hard work for us. Most of us weren't raised doing it. So it is a real chore. A real enjoyable chore for those that like emulating the old boys. That's my opion on the better teacher. Mike Katona Technology/Video Teacher Pine Eagle HS Halfway, Oregon remove the nospam to reply ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: trapping Date: 24 Feb 1998 21:28:33 EST could use a little input been trapping in the same lake the last few years tring to get rid of the beavers.can not get the remaining few.I am using conibear any 4 long spring.trapped in creeks ten year are so and always do good with rat coon beaver and mink.anyone got any great sets youb are willing to let me in on. rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 24 Feb 1998 21:46:43 -0500 dixie gun works gets their quality horn kits from Karl Wilburn so why pay dixie a premium. you can find his address in muzzle blast or drop me a note offline and i will provide a method to making contact with him. he has the best quality horns available and can supply in any color tip. they can be carved and he will predrill and fit the plugs for you. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:10:57 -0800 "JON P TOWNS" writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_01BD409F.88F24B40 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >DIXIE GUN WORKS > >---------- >: From: James Harvey >: To: hist_text@xmission.com >: Subject: MtMan-List: Cow Horn >: Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 8:57 PM >: >: Hello out there! >: >: Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow >horns that >would be >: of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn? >: >: >: Thankyou, >: James Harvey >------=_NextPart_000_01BD409F.88F24B40 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">DIXIE GUN >WORKS

----------
: = >From: James Harvey <color=3D"#0000FF">jkharvey@alpha.delta.educolor=3D"#000000">>
: To: color=3D"#0000FF">hist_text@xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000">
: Subject: MtMan-List: Cow Horn
: Date: >Monday, = >February 23, 1998 8:57 PM
:
: Hello out there!
:
: = > Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns >= >that would be
: of engravable quality and large enough to use as a >= >powder horn?
:
:
: Thankyou,
: = > James Harvey

> >------=_NextPart_000_01BD409F.88F24B40-- > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. Date: 24 Feb 1998 20:32:48 +0000 Japaning wasn't just painting. They put on the asphalt/varnish and then baked it on at 350 degrees. Don Keas David Tippets wrote: > > >Thanks for the insight on Jappaning -- how's about some more? > >A couple of years ago I discovered that the Fort Union Interpretive >Association has documented and is now offering for sale a small >personal-size cooking pot that is Jappaned tin. More recently, I 've >discovered documentation of Jappaned tin eyeglass cases. > >The Fort Union reproduction pot was priced at $80.00, last that I checked. > >According to your understanding of Jappaning: > > Could anyone today buy the appropriate shellac and paint it on tin to >achieve results equal to the Jappaned tin containers? > >Is protecting from rust the mail reason people used to Jappan tin? > >Is the Jappaned tin food safe if Jappaned on the inside of the container? > >Thanks for any additional information you have about Jappaning! > >Dave > > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 11:41 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe > > > >>. . . Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done >>with asphaltum varnish. >> >>Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with >>enamel, and some call this japaning. What was called japaning in the >>1200's referenced work done in Japan. A lacquering technique never widely >>used in this country. Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus >>venicifera; was the first japaning. >> >>Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names >>appropriated for "new and improved" materials. During the early nineteenth >>century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and could >>refer to any of several classes of materials. It depended on what was the >>local usage. Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based product, >>rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called lacquer. >> >>Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface. Some >>techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning. If painted with any >>black surface material it could be called japaning. >> >>> > >> > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A6582CE0276; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:25:12 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y7M7X-0002Pp-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:11 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y7M7U-0002Ov-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:08 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id >IAA17547 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:05 -0700 (MST) >Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR01 [207.68.143.137] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y7Jdw-0002JL-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:39:28 -0700 >Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.225 by email.msn.com with Microsoft >SMTPSVC; > Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:38:22 -0800 >From: "David Tippets" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning >Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:36:41 -0700 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >Message-ID: <0fe8a2238121828UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881270251 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 24 Feb 1998 23:14:00 EST What about the Natives? I'm thinking they use horses helluva alot more than the regular folks and also they did use one horse regularly but in battle they always tried to bring extra horses in case their horse got tired etc. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning Date: 24 Feb 1998 21:01:27 -0600 At 06:36 AM 2/24/98 , David Tippets wrote: > > >Thanks for the insight on Jappaning -- how's about some more? > >A couple of years ago I discovered that the Fort Union Interpretive >Association has documented and is now offering for sale a small >personal-size cooking pot that is Jappaned tin. More recently, I 've >discovered documentation of Jappaned tin eyeglass cases. > >The Fort Union reproduction pot was priced at $80.00, last that I checked. > >According to your understanding of Jappaning: > > Could anyone today buy the appropriate shellac and paint it on tin to >achieve results equal to the Jappaned tin containers? I do not know of a source of asphaltum varnish. The last can I saw I bought, in SLC from an old paint shop, a very dirty last can on the backroom shelf. About 20 years ago. I've not tried it but, I suppose you could do a form of japanning with shellac heavily pigmented with lamp black. It would not be as tough a finish as the asphaltum, it would be easy to rework and redo. Might not take the metal flexing too well as shellac can be rather brittle, a touch of colophony, perhaps a tiny dash of linseed oil, might help keep it from flaking from the sides. If you try it I would suggest first cleaning the metal thoroughly. When dry rub with a fresh cut clove of garlic (to etch the metal and aid adhesion, also useful when gluing wood to metal, even with modern glue). Dry and then apply the shellac in multiple thin coats. > >Is protecting from rust the mail reason people used to Jappan tin? That and appearance. > >Is the Jappaned tin food safe if Jappaned on the inside of the container? I've not seen japanning on the inside of food containers, most often tin or tinned inside. Any finish could affect flavor and could react with acid &/or alkali foods. It depends on what a finish is made from whether or not it would be food safe. Most old finishes contained lead. Shellac is one notable exception and is food safe as is lamp black. Everybody has eaten some. Shellac is made from the exudations of insects on trees in the Orient. The twigs are gathered as "stick" lac and first processed with simple kettles and hand stretching by the gatherers at camp fires. The crudest form imported is called "button" lac which must still be filtered through cheese cloth before use to remove body hairs and bug parts. Five or six grades are available each step in the processing removing more of the waxes and resins to achieve a clearer color finish. As these things are removed beneficial properties for many uses are removed as well. Orange shellac is a good general purpose refinement. The refining continues until what is called "Super Blonde", "White", or "Clear" is produced. Most of the good stuff is gone by this point and most craft uses are with touchup coloration. The food service industry uses most of the clear shellac as "Confectioners Glaze" it's what they spray on candy to make it shiny, check your candy wrappers to be sure your getting all natural, pure, original -- bug poop. > >Thanks for any additional information you have about Jappaning! > If I find a little extra time maybe I'll hunt up a recipe or two. Haven't had much lately. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning Date: 24 Feb 1998 22:35:01 -0600 At 04:16 PM 2/24/98 , RR1LA@aol.com wrote: >To the list- I thought I'd throw this food for thought into the fire...I have >also heard that Jappaning is a term used for the process of piercing tin, >brass or copper, commonly seen on lanterns. > I have not heard this reference to pierced work. > >I was told thats its purpose was >to allow light to be cast through the holes of the lantern body with the door >closed, prolonging the burning time of the candle. It allowed some light while shielding the flame from the wind. Inside a tent it helps break your shadow outline so you aren't such a good target for enemy snipers. Survives rough handling better than glass. When my eyes were better I used to read with one in camp. Many pie safe fronts, sconces and other tin, copper and brass works were decorated with pierced patterns. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paint Date: 24 Feb 1998 23:12:05 -0600 Modern latex paint is cheap and easy.=A0 It has no period applications or similarities.=A0 Efficacy in any application is specious at best. Latex paint contains mercury; an element more dangerous than lead.

The word latex was coined between 1655-65 and referenced any milky plant sap which coagulated on exposure to air.=A0 Such as poppy, euphorbia, India Rubber, poinsettia, and more.=A0

The term "Latex Paint" was coined in 1950-55.

The current chemical definition of latex is any solution of finely divided synthetic rubber or plastic particles emulsified in water.=A0=20

What was being used in the early 1800's as latex was most commonly India Rubber.=A0 I do not know of a source.=A0 Depending on usage it could reference some other plants vital bodily fluid.

I can't think of any paint recipes off hand which include any of the latexes. I'll keep an eye out, just in case. I do remember several for "jacking" leather and for various adhesives and waterproofings.

I'd appreciate copies of any old recipes you encounter. I've only got about 30,000 or so and I'm running low.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again Date: 24 Feb 1998 21:45:51 -0800 Clearwater is making a Bridger style for me for around $60.00, not a bad price for the quality! MB At 04:03 PM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >A while back, Charles Chalk was looking for a decent hat. Now I find >meself in the same boat, er... packtrain. I'm a searching for a low crown >(3 1/2 - 4"), 10x beaver, wide brim, etc. I never heard whether or not >Charles found one? > >I know a couple of folks did not reccomend Clearwater Hats, and one person >said JW Hats was a good place to look. I did call JW Hats, and was quoted >a price (custom made) at $330.00 (Ack!) Dixie carries a low quality one, >Jas Townsend carries about the same (wool felt), etc, etc.... > >Question is, has anyone located a source for non-custom, quality hats? > >And yes, I did check the email archives.... no help did I find there, >might of missed something though. > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage >http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again Date: 24 Feb 1998 22:22:25 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4172.AECD28C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sure like my Clearwater Hat Jon T ---------- : From: Lee Newbill : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Hats... again : Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 4:03 PM : : A while back, Charles Chalk was looking for a decent hat. Now I find : meself in the same boat, er... packtrain. I'm a searching for a low crown : (3 1/2 - 4"), 10x beaver, wide brim, etc. I never heard whether or not : Charles found one? : : I know a couple of folks did not reccomend Clearwater Hats, and one person : said JW Hats was a good place to look. I did call JW Hats, and was quoted : a price (custom made) at $330.00 (Ack!) Dixie carries a low quality one, : Jas Townsend carries about the same (wool felt), etc, etc.... : : Question is, has anyone located a source for non-custom, quality hats? : : And yes, I did check the email archives.... no help did I find there, : might of missed something though. : : Regards : : Lee Newbill : Viola, Idaho : email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu : Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage : http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4172.AECD28C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I sure like my Clearwater Hat = Jon T

----------
: From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: Hats... again
: Date: = Tuesday, February 24, 1998 4:03 PM
:
: A while back, Charles = Chalk was looking for a decent hat. Now I find
: meself in the = same boat, er... packtrain. I'm a searching for a low crown
: = (3 1/2 - 4"), 10x beaver, wide brim, etc. I never heard = whether or not
: Charles found one?
:
: I know a couple of = folks did not reccomend Clearwater Hats, and one person
: said JW = Hats was a good place to look. I did call JW Hats, and was = quoted
: a price (custom made) at $330.00 (Ack!) Dixie carries = a low quality one,
: Jas Townsend carries about the same (wool felt), = etc, etc....
:
: Question is, has anyone located a source for = non-custom, quality hats?
:
: And yes, I did check the email = archives.... no help did I find there,
: might of missed something = though.
:
: Regards
:
: Lee Newbill
: Viola, Idaho
: = email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
: Keeper of the "Buckskins & = Blackpowder" Webpage
: http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html

------=_NextPart_000_01BD4172.AECD28C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks Subject: MtMan-List: Re: The Last Beaver Date: 24 Feb 1998 22:39:08 -0800 In a recent post, Rick asked how to catch the last of the beaver in the lake. Rick, the last few beaver are always the hardest to catch and the answer is pretty simple....they are the smartest or the most lucky ones! If this is a lake on private property where the owner wants them ALL removed, then just keep up the trapping 'til ya get 'em all. There are no real secrets to catching "smart beaver". You just keep setting in the best spots in the area they are working. Using the conibear 330 in in their runs is about the best choice. Number #4 leghold drowning sets in deep water is another choice, if they are coming in and out of a steep slid along the shoreline in deep enough water. If you can trap through the ice near their lodges out in the lake (in some States this is illegal) the use of 330's work great. This time of year, the beaver have more than food on their minds....and they get very territorial! Just keep at it and if you can't seem to catch 'em all....that's O.K. too, ya gotta leave a few for seed........... it's the right thing to do. Good Luck & Good Trapping! _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 25 Feb 1998 03:05:13 -0600 There is no question one horse travel teaches you to trim down your gear. An essential lesson of survival. Wandering on foot teaches much the same. To fully understand the compleat experience Two Squaws is right, you need to do a few hundred carefree miles with a couple of pack animals. It will be surprising what you learn. I invented a couple of dozen new swear words over a 13 hand appaloosa aptly named Lil' Devil. He inspired the sig file at the bottom. Both ways teach, the long trail with a pack string will certainly teach the most. A spare animal is handy on the long trail. Part of the time I was out I rode with Pawnee and The Walrus, between us we had 9 animals. Cuts a pretty wide swath in the modern world, sometimes poor bull for the stock. Duties were interchangeable among the animals but we each basically had a rider, a packer and a spare on the string. Fewer animals can easier find sufficient graze on an extended basis. Doesn't leave such a broad and easy trail for hostiles to track. John... "Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980 john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The perils of lists Date: 25 Feb 1998 06:50:21 EST Very true, Dennis. However, I think I saw a spelling error in the... Okay, so I didn't. But I sure couldn't resist that one! Watch your top knots! John. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn Date: 25 Feb 1998 05:35:06 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD41AF.211BE380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On March 7 and 8th King Co fair grounds near Seattle WA a huge gun show, we have people come from as far Montana with their wares. Later Jon T ---------- : From: tigrbo1 : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn : Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 10:08 PM : : James Harvey wrote: : > : > Hello out there! : > : > Does anyone know where a person could procure some raw cow horns that would be of engravable quality and large enough to use as a powder horn? : > : >Thankyou, : >James Harvey : : Greetings James, : : Raw cow horn can be had from most any slaughter house, but you don't : want to go that route, trust me. I suggest you cruse the dealers tables : at the next couple rendezvous instead. Your family, friends and : neighbors will thank you for it. : : Best regards, : : Terry Smith ------=_NextPart_000_01BD41AF.211BE380 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On March 7 and 8th King Co fair grounds = near Seattle WA a huge gun show, we have people come from as far = Montana with their wares. Later Jon T

----------
: = color=3D"#000000">>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cow Horn
: Date: = Monday, February 23, 1998 10:08 PM
:
: James Harvey wrote:
: = >
: > Hello out there!
: >
: > = Does anyone know where a = person could procure some raw cow horns that would be of engravable = quality and large enough to use as a powder horn?
: >
: = >Thankyou,
: >James Harvey
:
: Greetings James,
: =
: Raw cow horn can be had from most any slaughter house, but you = don't
: want to go that route, trust me. I suggest you cruse the = dealers tables
: at the next couple rendezvous instead. Your family, = friends and
: neighbors will thank you for it.
:
: Best = regards,
:
: Terry Smith

------=_NextPart_000_01BD41AF.211BE380-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: MtMan-List: Katona Date: 25 Feb 1998 08:48:10 +0000 Enjoyed your letter about traveling with a string as opposed to one. Never done it but did take a few nurses out on a short weekend camping expidition once. I had gone up to the site the day before and set up the lodge and all the food and gear. (dont' pick on me for that one) I handled all the horses and did not get much sleep. The horses were ok but the nurses were up and clutching one another and screeching in fear at the slightest little sound! We were up in N. Idaho in bear country. I think I was the only one there who had ever even held a gun. I had a pump shotgun and a 41 ruger. It had to have been comical as hell every time during the night when I headed out of the lodge flap carrying my shotgun with several nurses training out behind me all hanging on to me and one another, to investigate, on their insistance, what must have in reality been a "woman-eating mouse or something. The horses were highlined and had hay and I am sure wondered why in the hell WE kept waking THEM up all night. It was a blast, I had a great time playing the mountain woman and protecter for a bunch of great friends and even greater greenies. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Valley Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 25 Feb 1998 11:14:46 -0500 Scott writes: ---------- From: Scott Allen[SMTP:allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM] Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 3:23 PM To: hist_text Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Well Ron, First of all, anyone who is has been on this list any length of time knows I don't just spout B.S. I rarely speak up and don't at all if I can only speculate or don't know for sure about the subject matter. I do things right and research everything before using it. If I can't document it, I don't use it! Latex was discovered early in the 18th century and incorporated into paint in 1741 (ref: The Peoples Chronology). It was also used on ships to waterproof "sheeting". I assume this was without paint because it does not mention any pigment. The hard vulcanized rubber wasn't developed until 1839, by Charles Goodyear. I've already cited other references and will provide more as soon as I can find them again. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT >>>>>>> Good for you, Scott, I never for a heartbeat thought otherwise. I meant no offense... and I am sorry that you took it that way. Like you, I rarely speak up, and I also research my gear. It wasn't until some time after you posted your note and I responded to it that any sort of reference was presented/received. At the time I wrote my reply, I envisioned scores of people buying 'picnic table red latex stain to paint their poles and canvas with and stating that "it was used 100 years before 1840. I know because I read it on the web". You know as well as I Scott, that it will be used by someone without that person doing any further research on the subject. Regardless, I stand beside my 3rd question/point, and personally need to know whether the latex we buy in a paint can today is the same term, has the same meaning and is the same (or very closely the same) product that was applied to the term latex that was known in 1741, 1800 or 1840....personally I doubt it, but I've been wrong before! OR, does the term fall into the same bucket as flannel and a large host of other terms that have a totally different meaning today as it did then? Likewise, with reference to my question/point #4; I asked (in what I had hoped to be a somewhat tongue in cheek way) whether latex was widely available for use in the Rockies, and was it commonly used? I believe both of those questions to be valid and important given my personal goals and what it is I'm striving to accomplish. Until I can research and answer those questions, latex paint isn't right for ME. I don't have the definitive answer to those questions as yet, Scott, do you? I remain, your Brother. Ron Valley #1353 White Mountain Party New Hampshire ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Pidgeon <75057.1341@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again Date: 25 Feb 1998 12:07:46 -0500 Greetings I just put a period linning in a hat for a fella that seams to fit the bill. I payed $350 for my hat like that and kant see where its much better. I don't remember the X desegnation but its all a scam anyway , nice hat for the bucks. It came fron river juntion trading company and cost about $100 don't write back for address as I don't have it they advertize in many magizines and have a web sight. Carl Ontis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes Date: 25 Feb 1998 10:45:16 -0700 "David Tippets" wrote : >What! Never heard of tent floors, and I thought you had Thompson's journals >memorized. Nope, sorry to say that I haven't read as much Thompson as I would like. >Not only did they have a tent floor, the floor was heavy stiff leather -- so >stiff they broke their sewing needles on it before they surrendered to >punching holes with an awl. Once they got those pants on, they must of >walked like the tin man with diaper rash. You better go back to your >Thompson, you missed one of the good parts I was puzzled because I've got lots of descriptions of tents which mention bough beds, or pine branches or grass strewn throughout, but no floors. Are you sure you're not thinking of the following from Peter Fidler's 1791 Journal? Dec. 13, 1791 : "I returned & tore my old Cotton trousers all to pieces that I threw them away as past all repair also my Drawers [long underwear--A.] became quite useless thro' Long wear Wrap a Blanket about me like a womans Petticoat to protect me from the cold..." Dec. 15, 1791 : "on account of the very wretched condition I am in for want of Trousers (having nothing of the Kind) the [Chipewyan] man I am with cut a skin out of the Bottom of his Tent to make a pair of the Trousers & upon work at them Clear & very sharp weather." "1791 Dec 16 Friday. Finished making my Leather Trousers which is a very great acquisition to me broke all my needles in making them the leather being so stiff 7 hard & went to work in the Indian manner with an awl & Sinnews before I completed them having at first only 4 needles." (J. B. Tyrrell, _Journals of Hearne & Turnor_, 530-531) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again Date: 25 Feb 1998 14:39:24 -0800 (PST) Frank wrote: > Clearwater is making a Bridger style for me for around $60.00, not a bad > price for the quality! Jon T wrote: > I sure like my Clearwater Hat Carl Ontis wrote: > river juntion trading company (good hat for the money) Appreciate the info! I'll check into Clearwater and see if'n I can locate the River Junction Company Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Blue Rider Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Katona Date: 25 Feb 1998 14:04:08 -1000 > I handled all the horses and did not get much sleep. The horses > were > ok but the nurses were up and clutching one another and screeching in > fear at the slightest little sound! We were up in N. Idaho in bear > country. I think I was the only one there who had ever even held a > gun. I had a pump shotgun and a 41 ruger. It had to have been > comical > as hell every time during the night when I headed out of the lodge > flap > carrying my shotgun with several nurses training out behind me all > hanging on to me and one another, to investigate, on their insistance, > > what must have in reality been a "woman-eating mouse or something. > The > horses were highlined and had hay and I am sure wondered why in the > hell > WE kept waking THEM up all night. > It was a blast, I had a great time playing the mountain woman and > protecter for a bunch of great friends and even greater greenies. > Longtrail Longtrail, Every time I manage to stop laughing about this story, I get a sudden picture of you stalking fearlessly out the tent flap with many pale faces and BIIIIIG eyes peering over your shoulder and start laughing all over again. And the poor horses! A good story well told. Thanks. Blue :-D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: 25 Feb 1998 18:22:51 -0600 I am reposting this in plain text as some mail readers can't deal with the "styled" text in Eudora 4.0. I am coming to believe there is a serious mail transfer issue between Eudora 4.0 and the mail reader in IE 4.0?. Somebody will have to let me know if my messages come through blank, they look fine when they bounce back to me. Then again maybe no one cares. Modern latex paint is cheap and easy. It has no period applications or similarities. Efficacy in any application is specious at best. Latex paint contains mercury; an element more dangerous than lead. The word latex was coined between 1655-65 and referenced any milky plant sap which coagulated on exposure to air. Such as poppy, euphorbia, India Rubber, poinsettia, and more. The term "Latex Paint" was coined in 1950-55. The current chemical definition of latex is any solution of finely divided synthetic rubber or plastic particles emulsified in water. What was being used in the early 1800's as latex was most commonly India Rubber. I do not know of a source. Depending on usage it could reference some other plants vital bodily fluid. I can't think of any paint recipes off hand which include any of the latexes. I'll keep an eye out, just in case. I do remember several for "jacking" leather and for various adhesives and waterproofings. I'd appreciate copies of any old recipes you encounter. I've only got about 30,000 or so and I'm running low. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: MtMan-List: sorry Date: 25 Feb 1998 18:15:17 +0000 Didn't mean to put my letter to Katona on this site. I realize it did not belong here. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again Date: 25 Feb 1998 20:55:23 EST Ive been wearing a clearwater hat i got at amm n ationals about 5 years ago with no problem. pat surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again. Date: 25 Feb 1998 18:58:48 +0000 --====49495348505455515256===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've bought 3 or 4 hats from Clearwater and never had any trouble from = them. Can't remember what the complaints were, but they are about the = only ones I know that make good quality hats for a decent price. Don Keas JON P TOWNS wrote: >I sure like my Clearwater Hat =A0=A0Jon T > >---------- >: From: Lee Newbill >: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >: Subject: MtMan-List: Hats... again >: Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 4:03 PM >: >: A while back, Charles Chalk was looking for a decent hat. =A0Now I find >: meself in the same boat, er... packtrain. =A0I'm a searching for a low = crown >: (3 1/2 - 4"), 10x beaver, wide brim, etc. =A0I never heard whether or = not >: Charles found one? >: >: I know a couple of folks did not reccomend Clearwater Hats, and one = person >: said JW Hats was a good place to look. =A0I did call JW Hats, and was = quoted >: a price (custom made) at $330.00 (Ack!) =A0Dixie carries a low quality o= ne, >: Jas Townsend carries about the same (wool felt), etc, etc.... >: >: Question is, has anyone located a source for non-custom, quality hats? >: >: And yes, I did check the email archives.... no help did I find there, >: might of missed something though. >: >: Regards >: >: Lee Newbill >: Viola, Idaho >: email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >: Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage >: http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A983573019A; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:32:19 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y7iho-0006i3-00; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:25:08 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y7ihk-0006hQ-00; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:25:04 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) = id = >IAA08124 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:25:03 -= 0700 (MST) >Received: from mail1y-int.prodigy.net [198.83.19.113] = > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y7aJM-00058C-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:27:20 -0700 >Received: from default (port199.slvd.prodigy.net [204.237.203.199]) > by mail1y-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA07986 > for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:24:27 -0500 >Message-Id: <199802250624.BAA07986@mail1y-int.prodigy.net> >From: "JON P TOWNS" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again >Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:22:25 -0800 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Priority: 3 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; = >boundary=3D"----=3D_NextPart_000_01BD4172.AECD28C0" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881270279 >Status: U > --====49495348505455515256===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= BR> I've = bought 3 or 4 hats from Clearwater and never = had any trouble from them. Can't remember = what the complaints were, but they are about = the only ones I know that make good quality = hats for a decent price. Don Keas

JON P TOWNS wrote:
>I sure like my = Clearwater Hat Jon T
>
>----------
>: = 0000FF">lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
>: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.= com
>: Subject: MtMan-List: = Hats... again
>: Date: Tuesday, February = 24, 1998 4:03 PM
>:
>: A while = back, Charles Chalk was looking for a decent = hat. Now I find
>: meself in = the same boat, er... packtrain. I'm = a searching for a low crown
>: (3 1/2 = - 4"), 10x beaver, wide brim, etc. = I never heard whether or not
>: = Charles found one?
>:
>: I know = a couple of folks did not reccomend Clearwater = Hats, and one person
>: said JW Hats = was a good place to look. I did call = JW Hats, and was quoted
>: a price = (custom made) at $330.00 (Ack!) Dixie = carries a low quality one,
>: Jas Townsend = carries about the same (wool felt), etc, = etc....
>:
>: Question is, has = anyone located a source for non-custom, = quality hats?
>:
>: And yes, I = did check the email archives.... no help = did I find there,
>: might of missed = something though.
>:
>: Regards
>:
>: = Lee Newbill
>: Viola, Idaho
>: = email at = lnewbill@uidaho.edu
>: Keeper of the = "Buckskins & Blackpowder" = Webpage
>: = http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
>Received: = from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by = mail.market1.com
> (SMTPD32-4.03) = id A983573019A; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:32:19 = MST
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com = with local (Exim 1.73 #4)
> id 0y7iho-0006i3-00; = Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:25:08 -0700
>Received: = from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] = (drudy)
> by lists.xmission.com with = esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4)
> id 0y7ihk-0006hQ-00; = Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:25:04 -0700
>Received: = (from drudy@= localhost) by xmission.xmission.com = (8.8.7/8.7.5) id
>IAA08124 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com<= /U>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:25:03 = -0700 (MST)
>Received: from mail1y-int.prodigy.net = [198.83.19.113]
> by lists.xmission.com = with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4)
> id 0y7aJM-00058C-00; = Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:27:20 -0700
>Received: = from default (port199.slvd.prodigy.net [204.237.203.199])
> by = mail1y-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with = ESMTP id BAA07986
> for <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 = 01:24:27 -0500
>Message-Id: <199802250624.BAA07986@mail1y-= int.prodigy.net>
>From: "JON = P TOWNS" <<= U>AMM944@prodigy.net>
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com<= /U>>
>Subject: Re: = MtMan-List: Hats... again
>Date: Tue, = 24 Feb 1998 22:22:25 -0800
>X-MSMail-Priority: = Normal
>X-Priority: 3
>X-Mailer: = Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161
>MIME-Version: = 1.0
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative; =
>boundary=3D"----=3D_NextPart_000_01BD4172.AECD28C0"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: = 7bit
>Sender: = owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: = hist_text@lists.= xmission.com
>X-UIDL: 881270279
>Status: = U
> --====49495348505455515256===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again. Date: 25 Feb 1998 20:04:39 -0800 (PST) On 25 Feb 1998, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > I've bought 3 or 4 hats from Clearwater and never had any trouble from > them. Can't remember what the complaints were, but they are about the > only ones I know that make good quality hats for a decent price. Don > Keas Wellll... based on the feedback I got on Clearwater Hats from the folks on this list... I went ahead and ordered one from them today. Their URL is: http://www.clearwaterhats.com/ Nice folks. Again, thanks for all the info! Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Show Date: 25 Feb 1998 20:43:27 -0800 JON P TOWNS wrote: > > On March 7 and 8th King Co fair grounds near Seattle WA a huge gun > show, we have people come from as far Montana with their wares. > Later Jon T Greetings all, Just to second Jon's post, 21 Annual Cascade Mtn. Men Muzzle Loading Arms & Pioneer Crafts Show King County Fair Grounds Enumclaw, Washington March 7 & 8 9am to 5pm Admission: $3.00 Under 12 Free Info: 206-763-1698 Come on down and join the fun. Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 26 Feb 1998 07:15:11 -0500 Ron, No hard feelings. The answer to question #3 as best that I can glean from researching is: Most latex paints today are made from an artificial or "reconstructed" latex. There is the old style available (100% real latex), but you have to look hard to find it. As to question #4, I've not run in to anything that could be for certain fact. I seem to remember mention of rubberized sheeting used by the traders, but couldn't tell you where I read it over the years. Good luck in your search and if I run into any more facts, I'll pass them to you. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Soapmaking Date: 26 Feb 1998 12:18:44 -0600 I was out surfing and found this soapmaking page, I have no ties. http://members.aol.com/oelaineo/soapmaking.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Living Documentation Date: 26 Feb 1998 17:24:20 -0500 My trekking is a bit before the Mountainman era... early part of the 1700s with Oglethorpes Independent Rangers for GA and SC... but everything we use we carry on our backs. GADS!!! I had forgotten how it was to carry a pack (retired military). As you said... you find the softest rock available and curl up. I use a 10x10 tarp to make a shelter out of just in case it decides to rain (have you ever been on one where it didn't??)... Bed roll, cup, bean pot, etc... We don't have the temperatures that David does in the forzen country, but when it gets into the 40s here in the South, that be a mite chilly for us. I take my longhandles (for at night) and 2 blankets then... But it is a lot of fun to step back like that, and rely on just what you carry. I agree... the Ronnys are alotof fun, but it can't compare to treking. We also have 2 long boats, and will take a run down the various rivers and pull ashore to camp. Addison Miller >David wrote: > >I'm not really into competition either, but think to add an element of >realism to the exercise both fatigue and time stress would be realistic >factors to add to the mix. > >For example, this weekend we had our monthly AMM outing for the Northern >Utah and Southern Idaho area. Friday night I left the road after dark on a >moonless night snowshoeing on about 10-12 feet of snow and was the first one >there. Needless to say, Friday night's camp was a tad chilly. Saturday, I >spent most of the day moving up onto a south facing slope and setting up a >good shelter and gathering lots of firewood. Saturday night I had a warm >comfortable camp. But which camp was most realistic for a one-night camp? >The warm camp would have been impossible had it been just one of many nights >on long trail between friends with a warm lodges and fat pups. > > >Dave, > >I couldn't agree more. I've spent many a night where I just rolled >up in my blanket on the softest rock I could find. These type camps >would have to be closer to the norm than a big cushy one while they >were on the move. I love to go to rondys, but to get the real feel of >what it was like, give me a scout with all I need on my back or >waiting for me to put together out there on the ground. > > >Your most humble servant, >Scott Allen >Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick >Fairplay, MD >http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lnbekr@deering.ndak.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Finishing wood bowls Date: 26 Feb 1998 18:28:22 CDT This may not be totally period correct, but I used a product called salad bowl finish to seal the inside of a turtle shell that I use for a eating bowl. I purchased salad bowl finish from a wood working shop. It had the consistancy of water and my first coating was too thick and accumulated in areas of depression as a gummy gel. This required sanding the inside of the shell again and the next application was applied very sparingly. This product is used to finish wooden salad bowls and I'm told is not harmful. Paulie Patch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mohawks/Hendrick Date: 26 Feb 1998 20:40:38 EST Hello everyone, Finally got around to looking for the Mohawks' Mohawk Valley address. Let them know I gave out their address. They are trying to keep their new land and be able to work it and all. They do fund rasing and such. It's perfectly ridiculous that they had to buy it when it was originally theirs in the first place! Anyways here goes: Kanatsiohareke (Ga na jo ha lay gay) "The Clean Pot" 4934 State Highway 5 Fonda, NY 12068 Telephone 518-673-5092 Fax 518-673-5575 Ted Hart _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again. Date: 26 Feb 1998 17:55:16 -0800 As I read this I had to reply. As I'm sitting here typing, I'm wearing my new Bridger Style Clearwater Hat! Just came today and now I can actually say first hand...NICE HAT! The felt is thick, workmanship excellent and it looks VERY authentic. All that and the actual price was $65.00 plus $10.00 shipping and handling. I'm very happy and highly recommend them! Lee, you'll not be sorry! Watch yer backtrail, MB Lee Newbill wrote: > Wellll... based on the feedback I got on Clearwater Hats from the folks > on this list... I went ahead and ordered one from them today. > > Their URL is: http://www.clearwaterhats.com/ > > Nice folks. Again, thanks for all the info! > > Regards > > Lee Newbill > Viola, Idaho > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage > http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 26 Feb 1998 21:37:34 -0600 At 06:15 AM 2/26/98 , Scott Allen wrote: > >Most latex paints today are made from an=20 >artificial or "reconstructed" latex. There is the old style=20 >available (100% real latex), but you have to look hard to find it. > Latex Paint is of the 1950's. I'm not sure what you mean by 100% real latex paint or old style. Modern chemical definition calls any synthetic rubber or plastic particles emulsified in water a "real" latex. Are you saying you've seen India Rubber base latex paint? Even if so it does not mean the usage pre-dates 1950. >As to question #4, I've not run in to anything that could be for=20 >certain fact. I seem to remember mention of rubberized sheeting used=20 >by the traders, but couldn't tell you where I read it over the years. > India Rubber was used in the period to waterproof cloth and more. It was of the first materials called latex. It is not remotely similar to; Latex Paint. Rubberized canvas is something very different than what a latex paint covered canvas would be. =20 A rubberized canoe would probably be heavier than a painted one, and the greater flexibility might allow for easier tearing of the fabric, it's possible the structure could be weakened, sagging could be a problem. When India rubber was used it was usually mixed with varnish, shellac, rosin, and other materials to make a particular varnish, waterproofing or cement; after dissolution. I have found few early recipes including India rubber, most I've found come after 1840. It took a while to figure out how to fully use it. It's little used anymore. The confusion comes from the mis-appropriation of old terminology in describing very modern materials used to very different purposes. At least with food we get a little truth in labeling so we end up with a curiosity called imitation margarine. Only Madison Avenue could, with a straight face, declare it better than butter. Please quote the 1741 recipe and source, and perhaps we can figure out what it was actually made of. If it is titled "latex paint" then Oxford and Random House probably should owe you money for pointing out a 209 year earlier usage. =20 Even if the 1741 recipe emulsifies India Rubber (caoutchouc) in water and entitles it latex paint it certainly wasn't a common usage. Perhaps too expensive, perhaps the recipe wasn't very good, perhaps? This is certain because the Paint and Coatings Industry figured they invented something new in the 1950's. Someone may have done something similar before, but it wasn't common knowledge. The reason I have such difficulty thinking that may have happened is that India Rubber can be dissolved in heated oils, turpentine, bisulphide of carbon, benzole, naptha, chloroform and like chemicals; this does not indicate a predisposition to emulsification in water with 18th & 19th century technology. The Bookshelf 95 source you referenced only confirms what I have been saying. I have seen nothing yet which supports your contentions. "begin quotes... from Bookshelf 95 ... la=B7tex (l=E2=B9t=E8ks=B4) noun 1. The colorless or milky sap of certain plants, such as the poinsettia or milkweed, that coagulates on exposure to air. 2. An emulsion of rubber or plastic globules in water, used in paints, adhesives, and various synthetic rubber products. 3. Latex paint. [Latin, fluid.] =97 la=B9tex=B4 adjective ----------------------- >From Random House Unabridged ... la=B7tex, n.,=20 1. a milky liquid in certain plants, as milkweeds, euphorbias, poppies, or the plants yielding India rubber, that coagulates on exposure to air. 2. Chem. any emulsion in water of finely divided particles of synthetic rubber or plastic. [1655=9665; < NL, special use of L latex water, juice, liquid] latex paint,=20 paint that has a latex binder and can be removed while it is wet by applying water. Also called rubber-base paint, water-base paint. [1950=9655] end quotes..." John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand Subject: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 26 Feb 1998 23:26:40 EST does anyone know anything about the a new keelboat being build in st. charles after the other one was burnedup in a fire last year. five of us took a ride up the missouri river last year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning Date: 25 Feb 1998 23:23:53 -0700 John, Thanks for all the information. I'm still in the dark about asphaltum. When I drove to Grand Junction last month, I stopped at a historical marker between Price and Green River. To my surprise the marker noted the importance of asphalt mined in the area. I don't want to push my luck and expect too much from your information stores, but is naturally occuring asphalt ore something that Indians, mountain men, or pioneers made use of without needing fancy refining facilities? Dave -----Original Message----- >At 06:36 AM 2/24/98 , David Tippets wrote: >> >> >>Thanks for the insight on Jappaning -- how's about some more? >> >>A couple of years ago I discovered that the Fort Union Interpretive >>Association has documented and is now offering for sale a small >>personal-size cooking pot that is Jappaned tin. More recently, I 've >>discovered documentation of Jappaned tin eyeglass cases. >> >>The Fort Union reproduction pot was priced at $80.00, last that I checked. >> >>According to your understanding of Jappaning: >> >> Could anyone today buy the appropriate shellac and paint it on tin to >>achieve results equal to the Jappaned tin containers? > >I do not know of a source of asphaltum varnish. The last can I saw I >bought, in SLC from an old paint shop, a very dirty last can on the >backroom shelf. About 20 years ago. > >I've not tried it but, I suppose you could do a form of japanning with >shellac heavily pigmented with lamp black. It would not be as tough a >finish as the asphaltum, it would be easy to rework and redo. Might not >take the metal flexing too well as shellac can be rather brittle, a touch >of colophony, perhaps a tiny dash of linseed oil, might help keep it from >flaking from the sides. > >If you try it I would suggest first cleaning the metal thoroughly. When >dry rub with a fresh cut clove of garlic (to etch the metal and aid >adhesion, also useful when gluing wood to metal, even with modern glue). >Dry and then apply the shellac in multiple thin coats. > >> >>Is protecting from rust the mail reason people used to Jappan tin? > >That and appearance. > >> >>Is the Jappaned tin food safe if Jappaned on the inside of the container? > > >I've not seen japanning on the inside of food containers, most often tin or >tinned inside. Any finish could affect flavor and could react with acid >&/or alkali foods. It depends on what a finish is made from whether or not >it would be food safe. Most old finishes contained lead. Shellac is one >notable exception and is food safe as is lamp black. Everybody has eaten >some. > >Shellac is made from the exudations of insects on trees in the Orient. The >twigs are gathered as "stick" lac and first processed with simple kettles >and hand stretching by the gatherers at camp fires. The crudest form >imported is called "button" lac which must still be filtered through cheese >cloth before use to remove body hairs and bug parts. Five or six grades >are available each step in the processing removing more of the waxes and >resins to achieve a clearer color finish. As these things are removed >beneficial properties for many uses are removed as well. Orange shellac is >a good general purpose refinement. > >The refining continues until what is called "Super Blonde", "White", or >"Clear" is produced. Most of the good stuff is gone by this point and most >craft uses are with touchup coloration. The food service industry uses >most of the clear shellac as "Confectioners Glaze" it's what they spray on >candy to make it shiny, check your candy wrappers to be sure your getting >all natural, pure, original -- bug poop. > >> >>Thanks for any additional information you have about Jappaning! >> > >If I find a little extra time maybe I'll hunt up a recipe or two. Haven't >had much lately. > >John... > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer >kramer@kramerize.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: 26 Feb 1998 00:35:41 -0700 John, Holy shit, am I impressed! You've just raised the standard for living history information. Even Angela will have trouble topping this one. But I'm grateful -- I was afraid that I was going to have to give credit for my canoe to Benjamin Moore. Now, how's about those India rubber shoes that HBC sold at Fort Hall? Can you stretch your latex insight to describe those India rubber shoes? Dave -----Original Message----- >I am reposting this in plain text as some mail readers can't deal with the >"styled" text in Eudora 4.0. I am coming to believe there is a serious >mail transfer issue between Eudora 4.0 and the mail reader in IE 4.0?. >Somebody will have to let me know if my messages come through blank, they >look fine when they bounce back to me. Then again maybe no one cares. > >Modern latex paint is cheap and easy. It has no period applications or >similarities. Efficacy in any application is specious at best. Latex >paint contains mercury; an element more dangerous than lead. > >The word latex was coined between 1655-65 and referenced any milky plant >sap which coagulated on exposure to air. Such as poppy, euphorbia, India >Rubber, poinsettia, and more. > >The term "Latex Paint" was coined in 1950-55. > >The current chemical definition of latex is any solution of finely divided >synthetic rubber or plastic particles emulsified in water. > >What was being used in the early 1800's as latex was most commonly India >Rubber. I do not know of a source. Depending on usage it could reference >some other plants vital bodily fluid. > >I can't think of any paint recipes off hand which include any of the >latexes. I'll keep an eye out, just in case. I do remember several for >"jacking" leather and for various adhesives and waterproofings. > >I'd appreciate copies of any old recipes you encounter. I've only got >about 30,000 or so and I'm running low. > >John... > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >john kramer@kramerize.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clothes Date: 26 Feb 1998 00:46:09 -0700 Angela, Nope, it was Thompson alright, somewhere between the Tobacco Plains and Bonner's Ferry, as I recall. Close as I can speculate, the floor must have been from Thompson's personal tent. Remember that his tent was erected on most occasions by his personal manservant, while he did his cartographic calculations and mapping. Also, remember that his tent was designed to have a fire inside. A heavy leather floor with a big circle cut out of the center would have gone a long way to preventing accidental ignition of grass fires inside the tent from popping spitting spruce or fir fueld fires. Dave P.S. Still waiting for a reply from Oxford on your XY interpretation of history. -----Original Message----- > "David Tippets" wrote : >>What! Never heard of tent floors, and I thought you had Thompson's journals >>memorized. >Nope, sorry to say that I haven't read as much Thompson as I would like. > >>Not only did they have a tent floor, the floor was heavy stiff leather -- so >>stiff they broke their sewing needles on it before they surrendered to >>punching holes with an awl. Once they got those pants on, they must of >>walked like the tin man with diaper rash. You better go back to your >>Thompson, you missed one of the good parts > >I was puzzled because I've got lots of descriptions of tents which mention >bough beds, or pine branches or grass strewn throughout, but no floors. Are >you sure you're not thinking of the following from Peter Fidler's 1791 Journal? >Dec. 13, 1791 : "I returned & tore my old Cotton trousers all to pieces that >I threw them away as past all repair also my Drawers [long underwear--A.] >became quite useless thro' Long wear Wrap a Blanket about me like a womans >Petticoat to protect me from the cold..." >Dec. 15, 1791 : "on account of the very wretched condition I am in for want >of Trousers (having nothing of the Kind) the [Chipewyan] man I am with cut a >skin out of the Bottom of his Tent to make a pair of the Trousers & upon >work at them Clear & very sharp weather." >"1791 Dec 16 Friday. Finished making my Leather Trousers which is a very >great acquisition to me broke all my needles in making them the leather >being so stiff 7 hard & went to work in the Indian manner with an awl & >Sinnews before I completed them having at first only 4 needles." (J. B. >Tyrrell, _Journals of Hearne & Turnor_, 530-531) > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again. Date: 26 Feb 1998 00:24:08 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BD424C.DA709180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Two years ago, JW Hats in SLC sold me a hat made to the specs you = describe and only charged me around $100 for it. I hope that they = haven't tripled their prices. I lived under a felt hat for about 15 years and have pretty stong = opinions about them. The JW Hat, at the price I paid, was more hat for = the money than similarly- priced Stetsons or Resistols. I wouldn't = hesitate a second to pay $100 for another JW, but I wouldn't pay over = $300 for one no matter how many XXX's followed the beaver. There are = little custom cowboy hat shops springing up all over the place that will = take a lot more of money than Clearwater or JW Hats. =20 There's a lot to be said in favor of being able to put a hat on your = head before you pay for it. Don't be too impressed by the custom makers = who put the little antique metal contraptions on your head to reproduce = your head exactly on the form they build your hat around. Lots of hours = of sweat and rain contribute more to the fit of a hat than those = contraptions that record the unique shape of all your personal = knowldegde bumps. Looks to me like the biggest advantage in buying a Clearwater Bridger = Hat is that after you pay for it, you'll still have enough money left to = buy one of those Civil War-era beauties they sell. With one of those = over your skins, you're sure to confound the buckskinners who frequent = renezvous at the county fairgrounds. Had I the chance to do it over = again, I'd buy one of those Clearwater Civil War dandies to get married = in. If you have not seen Clearwater's Civil War collection, check out = their web site. They are cute enough to make either a carpet bagger, or = a pimp out of a mountain man. Resistol is still the king! Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: User Subject: MtMan-List: Sawing off a CVA barrel Date: 26 Feb 1998 20:41:43 -0600 Hello gunmakers everywhere, A friend of mine has a CVA Kentucky rifle he built from a kit. The caliber is .45 and the barrel length is 32". He wants to convert it to .32 caliber by replacing the barrel. The problem is most barrels are to long. What is the proper technique---saw off the muzzle end or the breech end? How much can be safely sawn off before accuracy is sacrificed? Next question. I have a CVA Mountain rifle. It is percussion and I want to convert to flintlock. Do I simply remove the drum and replace it with a touch-hole liner and add a flintlock or is it more complicated than that? Would someone please help us flatlanders with these questions. Thanks a lot folks, Monty Bradley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: 27 Feb 1998 02:43:26 -0600 At 01:35 AM 2/26/98 , David Tippets wrote: >John, > >Holy shit, am I impressed! You've just raised the standard for living >history information. Even Angela will have trouble topping this one. > Thank yee kindly, but I think you exaggerate. > >Now, how's about those India rubber shoes that HBC sold at Fort Hall? Can >you stretch your latex insight to describe those India rubber shoes? > Not having seen a pair it's difficult for me to say. I've not read any descriptions of the process. Nor any details of construction. I can only assume that at least some part of the manufacture required piecing the shoe together, much perhaps as was done with leather. Only using glue instead of stitching. Perhaps with. I have seen several recipes to make glue for India rubber, mostly made from India rubber. Find a source of rubber and I'll dig something out. Be best to find at least a picture first. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning Date: 27 Feb 1998 02:29:44 -0600 At 12:23 AM 2/26/98 , David Tippets wrote: >John, > >Thanks for all the information. I'm still in the dark about asphaltum. >When I drove to Grand Junction last month, I stopped at a historical marker >between Price and Green River. To my surprise the marker noted the >importance of asphalt mined in the area. > >I don't want to push my luck and expect too much from your information >stores, but is naturally occuring asphalt ore something that Indians, >mountain men, or pioneers made use of without needing fancy refining >facilities? > The short answer is, YEP! They had some methods of basic refinement. Asphalt has been used for a long time, just not for driveways back then. They also used it without the cheap starchy rock filler we usually see. If you are deadly serious about trying some old ways, first acquire the necessary materials, I'll find time to dig out the recipes and processes. While checking out some other things this afternoon I found in MacKenzie the following: TO MAKE BLACK JAPAN Take of boiled oil 1 gallon, umber 8 oz., asphaltum 3 oz., oil of turpentine as much as will reduce it to the thinness required. end quote ... This should at least give you a starting point for quantities and relationships. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again. Date: 27 Feb 1998 00:46:23 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, David Tippets wrote: > Two years ago, JW Hats in SLC sold me a hat made to the specs you > describe and only charged me around $100 for it. I hope that they > haven't tripled their prices. Dave, the gal I talked to said the word "custom" and $330 in the same breath. When she said $330, my mind shut down, my wallet writhed in pain, and I figured I wuz in the wrongggg place! > Looks to me like the biggest advantage in buying a Clearwater Bridger > Hat is that after you pay for it, you'll still have enough money left to > buy one of those Civil War-era beauties they sell. I looked at those, but figgered that with topper like that, I'd cut such a dashing figure at Rendezvous, that all them other skinners would get jealous and depressed. I couldna live with myself under such circumstances, so sadly, passed on buying the "dandy" hats Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again. Date: 27 Feb 1998 03:10:23 -0600 I'll throw in one more option for anyone who is traveling through St Joseph, MO. Lots of history before the Pony Express, worth a little out of your way. Luck of the draw. Stop at the Stetson Factory. 4X sell for about $20 to $75, 10X run about 100 to 150.00. One time when I was up there I saw a gorgeous black 10X long nap, low crown, flat brim that only needed a better hat band and liner. Wasn't my size. 10X at the Stetson plant is a heavier and denser felt than the 4X. The 100X is like a helmet and only comes in a white rich rancher style, $500 at the factory thousands at a hat store. Ostensibly seconds, a few have flaws, most are over runs and dealer returns. I don't think they do mail order. It's been a few years since I was last up there so prices may not be current. You can tell hats sold at the factory store, there is a hole punched in the sweat band. John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe Date: 27 Feb 1998 08:36:37 -0500 John, I agree that it wasn't called latex paint in the 1700's, but it was used according to my source. This weekend, if I have any mind left after doing taxes, I'll get together a fact sheet/friendly rebuttal for ya. Have a better weekend than I am! (The only saving grace for this weekend is that I'm getting my smoothbore out of the shop today and can shoot a little tomorrow). Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning Date: 27 Feb 1998 05:55:30 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4344.4F574B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- : From: David Tippets : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning : Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 4:36 AM : : My point is what is the point of Jappaning. Are people suggesting that we use it in our cook ware? I don't think it would hold up to the fire in my camp. I cannot image that someone putting direct heat to the jappan ware it looks like to me it was for the Big Doctor John Mac of the HBC when he was trying to impress some one. I have in the past had discussions with folks that it was like granite ware, wrong, one is like paint the other is fluxed silica sand on tin. Not a sub for or excuses to use granite ware I have read a lot on the list and haven't figured out the point of the discussion only to inform us about japanned ware.. One of the reasons that it took so long to get granite ware going was a dependable fluxing agent to tin is what I have read I copied a half a book to do an article one time to prove to my brothers that it wasn't cool to use it. Pre 1840, I love it to use I have used one coffee pot for years in my home I take it camping its great, for that not for Pre 1840. Later Jon T : : Thanks for the insight on Jappaning -- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4344.4F574B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----------
: From: David = Tippets <wolverine76@email.msn.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning
: Date: = Tuesday, February 24, 1998 4:36 AM
:
: My point is what is the = point of Jappaning. Are people suggesting that we use it in our = cook ware? I don't think it would hold up to the fire in my camp. = I cannot image that someone putting direct heat to the jappan ware = it looks like to me it was for the Big Doctor John Mac of the HBC when = he was trying to impress some one. I have in the past had = discussions with folks that it was like granite ware, wrong, = one is like paint the other is fluxed silica sand on tin. = Not a sub for or excuses to use granite ware I have read a lot on = the list and haven't figured out the point of the discussion only to = inform us about japanned ware.. One of the reasons that it took so = long to get granite ware going was a dependable fluxing agent to tin is = what I have read I copied a half a book to do an article one time to = prove to my brothers that it wasn't cool to use it. Pre 1840, I = love it to use I have used one coffee pot for years in my home I take it = camping its great, for that not for Pre 1840. Later Jon T =
:
: Thanks for the insight on Jappaning --

------=_NextPart_000_01BD4344.4F574B40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hats... again Date: 27 Feb 1998 09:55:36 -0800 (PST) Jon, I may have missed it, but could you give me the address & phone # for Clearwater (if you have it handy?) I would like to get a new hat in the furure. Thanks, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1499 At 10:22 PM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >I sure like my Clearwater Hat Jon T > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) Subject: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 27 Feb 1998 09:34:04 -0600 After reading all the different responses something came to mind and thought I would throw it out for some correct answers. Have several gourd canteens, and they really make the water taste BAD. Is there anything that can be used to coat the inside and make the water not taste bad. Have tried melted bees wax, only marginally successful, needed to be re-applied after several uses. Have talked with several paint stores and none of them have any paints that they think you can safely drink after having water sat on it awhile. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thank you all in advance. Tim Austin timaustin@starcomm.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 27 Feb 1998 10:00:29 -0800 (PST) Absolutely right John. That's why I always have a good pair of boots to ride in. Also helps when they step on your foot. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >John... > >"Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980 > >john > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 27 Feb 1998 11:20:39 -0500 only word that i have heard is that the man who owned it is working on building another one. he lives down on 2nd street in old town st charles. I own a house on clark and 8th street which is in middle town st charles. i can contact my renters and have them get his address if you need it contact me off line and we will talk about it. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:26:40 EST Traphand writes: >does anyone know anything about the a new keelboat being build in st. >charles >after the other one was burnedup in a fire last year. five of us took >a ride >up the missouri river last year. > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sawing off a CVA barrel Date: 27 Feb 1998 12:57:08 -0500 MONTY FOR YOUR INFO I HAVE PROVIDED COMMENTS BELOW On Thus, 26 Feb 1998 20:41:43 -0600 User writes: >Hello gunmakers everywhere, > > A friend of mine has a CVA Kentucky rifle he built from a kit. The >caliber is .45 and the barrel length is 32". He wants to convert it to >.32 caliber by replacing the barrel. The problem is most barrels are >to long. COMMENT: Don't worry about the length of the barrels a standard length is 36 in by most barrel manufactures and even though it makes it a bit barrel heavy it will look and shoot quite well. for the small caliber you will probably want a 1-48 twist or a standard which is about 1-66. the 1-48 will be the most accurate but will be a little powder critical. will have to develop a good charge. usually a lower powder charge than normal. What is the proper technique---saw off the muzzle end or the >breech end? How much can be safely sawn off before accuracy is >sacrificed? COMMENT: I always saw them off at the muzzle, and as for technique i use a hack saw cut to length plus about .030 extra for finishing. if you have a lath then getting the end of the barrel sq and crowned is quite simple if not then get out the file and square. check all flats on the barrel and then file the high side toward the bore of the barrel until you cannot see any light under the square from any flat or close to it. "THIS IS CRITICAL TO ME" for i have found that the barrel will shoot to the high side of the barrel end. and by the way this is the way they us to regulate muzzleloading shotguns and double rifles. now that you have the end of the barrel square go to the local hardware store and find a grinding stone that is almost round. you will need one about 3/8 dia or slightly larger to crown the .32 cal. then by hand use the stone on the end of the barrel until you have cut down to the depth of the groves on the rifling. then take a piece of 320 wet and dry paper and polish the champher that you made with the ball. it is very important that there are no nicks or burrs around the crown. "THIS IS CRITICAL FOR ACCURACY" this total process usually takes me about 1 hr, but i feel that this is very important to get a good barrel to shoot accurate. i normally Don't like a real deep crown i have seen several that are like that and they shoot ok and are easy to load the deeper the crown on a small caliber it seems you loose in accuracy. but keep the faith there is a happy medium. and Don't worry you can always start all over with the squaring and crowning process if you feel you have messed it up without loosing much in the total barrel length. I use this same process if i ding or damage the crown for any reason. some people will agree with me and others will not about the crown depth. some of the makers will even cut the rifling back into the crown claming that it makes for better loading. you will have to make your own judgement on that. many fine originals had the rifling flaired into the crown and shot ok. the question is was it more accurate or not. that from my experience and work have found that it only makes for easier loading and sometimes affects accuracy and sometimes not, depends on many things. > Next question. I have a CVA Mountain rifle. It is percussion and I >want to convert to flintlock. Do I simply remove the drum and replace >it >with a touch-hole liner and add a flintlock or is it more complicated >than that? COMMENT:Yes you can convert the percussion to flint you will need to match the threads on the drum. you will probably have to make a liner that you use. i think but am not sure but CVA us to make a conversion kit for this you will have to check with them or whomever to find out. I usually make my liners from allen screws, take them and heat until red then let cool this because they are case hardened and are hard to drill. cut the bottoming end off to a length that allows the allen to be almost flush with the barrel then drill with a .040 to .050 dia hole. you can install and remove them with a standard allen wrench. file the outside flush with the side of the barrel and hope that the lock pan will lign up with the touch hole. if it doesn't then you will have to try a different method and locate your hole off center to align with the pan. watch the material thickness to the threads . you will need at least 2 thread depths for safety sake. I hope this will help you if you have any questions then contact me offline or give me a call. "HAWK" michael pierce 1-813-771-1815 e-mail address is HAWKNEST4@ JUNO.COM _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 27 Feb 1998 13:47:57 -0500 John wrote: > >"Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980 > >Ok John, We are gathered around the virtual fire. Out with the tale (tail?) Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 27 Feb 1998 13:52:48 -0500 Tim, I've always used a heavy coat of beeswax. You might try brewers pitch. It can be had a hobby shops or wine/beer making supply houses. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 27 Feb 1998 14:35:39 EST Tim, I have a keg lined with Brewers pitch, and its worked great for years. Can't tell you what it is exactly or where to get it, but its water-tight, safe, and imparts no taste. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: need your help (fwd) Date: 27 Feb 1998 15:11:28 -0700 (MST) Forwarded message: >From nobody@krunk1.xmission.com Fri Feb 27 14:22:39 1998 Message-Id: <199802272122.OAA23553@krunk1.xmission.com> X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt Am searching for anyone who can put me in contact with re-enacters or groups in the pacific nw who are involved in rendevous and such. Fur traders, mountainmen, etc. Trying to establish if possible, a rendevous at our 360 acre private campground/resort in eastern Washington. If you can help I'd sure appreciate it. -- This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address "Tish Tower " may be incorrect. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Clearwater Hats Address Date: 27 Feb 1998 14:11:03 -0800 (PST) On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, zaslow wrote: > I may have missed it, but could you give me the address & phone # for > Clearwater (if you have it handy?) I would like to get a new hat in the furure. Since I just ordered one, I gots everything handy.... URL is: http://www.clearwaterhats.com/ Address is: Clearwater Hat Company HC 73 Box 646 Newnata AR 72680 Phone: (870) 746-4324 Email burton@mvtel.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Gourd Canteens) Date: 27 Feb 1998 16:26:37 -0600 (CST) >After reading all the different responses something came to mind and >thought I would throw it out for some correct answers. > >Have several gourd canteens, and they really make the water taste BAD. >Is there anything that can be used to coat the inside and make the water >not taste bad. Have tried melted bees wax, only marginally successful, >needed to be re-applied after several uses. Have talked with several >paint stores and none of them have any paints that they think you can >safely drink after having water sat on it awhile. > Well, Tim, I never tried beeswax, but regular parafin works for me and leaves no bad taste. The trick is (after the gourd has been cleaned out) to pour melted wax into the gourd a couple of times to get at least two layers of wax down. To test the wax barrier, after the gourd cools, pour some water into it and leave it overnight. Drink the water the water the next day. It might taste a bit stale because it sat for several hours, and a very slight hint of gourd taste might remain, but that should not overpower the taste of the water itself. Try it. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sawing off a CVA barrel Date: 27 Feb 1998 18:10:58 EST Monty writes: > Next question. I have a CVA Mountain rifle. It is percussion and I > want to convert to flintlock. Do I simply remove the drum and replace it > with a touch-hole liner and add a flintlock or is it more complicated > than that? I have converted a couple of CVA Kentuckys from percussion to flint. It can be relatively simple, with provisions. Call CVA and see if you can obtain the lock. They have many different ones for several applications. I bought mine direct for $59.95 each from CVA and paid by credit card. Service within one week. Going from percussion to flint is different than converting the other way. The hammer can be bent to hit the nipple. With a flint conversion, the lock will probably be in the wrong place and the touch hole will not line up with the pan. Some minor inletting will be required to fit the new lock. Mine took about a half hour each. The threads for the drum are metric, something like 10 X 1.25 mm. To make your own touch hole liner, obtain a bolt with the above size threads, about 2 inches long. If you have a drill press, chuck the head of the bolt in your drill vise, and either countersink the threaded end, or choose a drill size just slightly smaller than the bolt and make a counterbore with it. This will give you a coned touch-hole liner, not a necessity but will give faster ignition. Now screw the bolt into the hole. The way CVA's are drilled, it will probably stop in the right place. Don't force it. Run your ramrod down the barrel to make sure it isn't protruding into the barrel. When it is properly placed, cut off the head of the bolt and file the liner flush with the barrel. Install the lock, open the frizzen, and lay a centerpunch into the valley of the pan. Try to center it in the valley and approximately level with the top of the pan, but not higher. Tap it to mark where you should drill. Remove the barrel and drill the hole. It will probably not be in the center of the liner. This is OK, but if it is off-center, try to drill the hole at a slight angle to come out in the center of the cone inside. There are various recommendations for the hole size. I always tend to go a bit large. Some of the smaller holes will give ignition problems, especially when drilled off- center. I did one conversion with hand tools and one with a drill press. Both worked out well and took about the same amount of time. ( a couple of hours from start to finish) I looked high and low for brass or stainless bolts to make the liners from, and went a specialty hardware supplier to no avail. I then went to a Yamaha motorcycle shop and talked to one of their mechanics. He had a stainless bolt in his toolbox junk drawer which he sold to me for a buck. It was long enough to make 4 liners. This is not a hard conversion, provided CVA sells the lock you need, and can be readily done by a mechanically inclined novice. Good Luck Dave Kanger OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 27 Feb 1998 17:17:32 -0700 >Tim, > >I've always used a heavy coat of beeswax. You might try brewers >pitch. It can be had a hobby shops or wine/beer making supply houses. > > >Your most humble servant, >Scott Allen >Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick >Fairplay, MD >http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT Tim and Scott, My recipe for brewers pitch is as follows, however, I have never gotten it in such a liquid state as to be able to coat a gourd canteen by sloshing. Generally the consistancy is like hot tar and is good for brushing on things. take equal parts of pine pitch and beeswax - melt in a double boiler (I suggest you do not use your wifes) . A cheap double boiler can be made out of two old saucepans, one smaller than the other and suspended in the larger one by a coathanger bent to fit around the rim. once melted, stir in enough powdered charcoal to make the mixture a deep brown color. As it was explained to me, the Beeswaxes softness counteracts the pine pitches brittlness and the charcoal acts as a binder. Ive used this mixture successfully on rawhide pack lashings. it lasts for years. Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what would make this mixture more fluid so it could be sloshed in a canteen? B. Dawg Vic Nathan Barkin Printing and Reproduction Services Manager NAU Publication Services 520-523-6160 Victor.Barkin@nau.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Katona" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Gourd Canteens) Date: 27 Feb 1998 18:06:37 +0000 Sometimes a mix of beeswax and parafin works better. In summer months, a few sprigs of mint in the gourd makes for a real pleasant taste. Two Squaws Hiveranno AMM # 914 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 27 Feb 1998 21:47:33 EST Tim, I lined mine with pine pitch a friend gathered from some ponderosa pines. You also might try Bewers pitch. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourd Canteens Date: 28 Feb 1998 00:23:05 -0600 At 06:17 PM 2/27/98 , Vic Barkin wrote: >Tim and Scott, > >My recipe for brewers pitch is as follows, however, I have never gotten it >in such a liquid state as to be able to coat a gourd canteen by sloshing. >Generally the consistancy is like hot tar and is good for brushing on >things. > >take equal parts of pine pitch and beeswax - melt in a double boiler (I >suggest you do not use your wifes) . A cheap double boiler can be made out >of two old saucepans, one smaller than the other and suspended in the >larger one by a coathanger bent to fit around the rim. >once melted, stir in enough powdered charcoal to make the mixture a deep >brown color. As it was explained to me, the Beeswaxes softness counteracts >the pine pitches brittlness and the charcoal acts as a binder. > >Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what would make this mixture more >fluid so it could be sloshed in a canteen? > >B. Dawg > Good old traditional stuff. You'll need to do a little experimenting to swill it around. I'll keep my eye out for any equivalent alternatives. Meanwhile here are a few things to try. 1. Warm the canteen as well as the mixture. 2. Try adding a lot of salt to the water jacket to raise the boiling temperature for a thinner mixture. This is FLAMMABLE, the hotter the more so. It will stick to and burn through layers of skin. At least wear eye protection and work outdoors in a fire safe area. 3. Try reducing the percentage of pitch in the mixture. 10 to 30% might be enough. A touch of colophony could help firm it back up if too soft when cool. 4. You could add just a little sweet oil to thin the mixture and help it flow. 5. None of the common solvents for these materials are anything you want to have around drinking water. Even if they do mostly evaporate. 6. Every gourd I ever had I broke before I got it made into a canteen. 7. Same thing happened to the finished ones I traded for. May not be the gourds -- I've trashed sterner stuff. Note: a couple of food tins with a coil of heavy wire to elevate the inner can and allow a full water jacket will also work as a double boiler. A big can in a pot with some sort of bottom grid (like a cake cooling wire rack) works as well. Size the boiler to the quantity needed. John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 27 Feb 1998 23:20:00 -0800 (PST) Tim, I have a gourd that I've had about 14 years and coated the inside with a mixture of 1/2 bees wax and 1/2 parafin. Only had to reapply it once in the 14 years. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >Have several gourd canteens, and they really make the water taste BAD. >Is there anything that can be used to coat the inside and make the water >not taste bad. Have tried melted bees wax, only marginally successful, >needed to be re-applied after several uses. Have talked with several >paint stores and none of them have any paints that they think you can >safely drink after having water sat on it awhile. > >Any suggestions would be helpful. > >Thank you all in advance. > >Tim Austin >timaustin@starcomm.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. Date: 28 Feb 1998 01:25:18 -0700 Don, I've heard that it was a baked on finish. Baking isn't a problem, once you've found some asphaltum varnish. Somebody is making those jappaned pots for Fort Union -- got any clues where the asphaltum varnish is coming from? Dave -----Original Message----- >Japaning wasn't just painting. They put on the asphalt/varnish and then >baked it on at 350 degrees. Don Keas > > >David Tippets wrote: >> >> >>Thanks for the insight on Jappaning -- how's about some more? >> >>A couple of years ago I discovered that the Fort Union Interpretive >>Association has documented and is now offering for sale a small >>personal-size cooking pot that is Jappaned tin. More recently, I 've >>discovered documentation of Jappaned tin eyeglass cases. >> >>The Fort Union reproduction pot was priced at $80.00, last that I >checked. >> >>According to your understanding of Jappaning: >> >> Could anyone today buy the appropriate shellac and paint it on tin to >>achieve results equal to the Jappaned tin containers? >> >>Is protecting from rust the mail reason people used to Jappan tin? >> >>Is the Jappaned tin food safe if Jappaned on the inside of the >container? >> >>Thanks for any additional information you have about Jappaning! >> >>Dave >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Kramer >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 11:41 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe >> >> >> >>>. . . Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done >>>with asphaltum varnish. >>> >>>Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with >>>enamel, and some call this japaning. What was called japaning in the >>>1200's referenced work done in Japan. A lacquering technique never >widely >>>used in this country. Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus >>>venicifera; was the first japaning. >>> >>>Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names >>>appropriated for "new and improved" materials. During the early >nineteenth >>>century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and >could >>>refer to any of several classes of materials. It depended on what was >the >>>local usage. Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based product, >>>rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called >lacquer. >>> >>>Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface. >Some >>>techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning. If painted with >any >>>black surface material it could be called japaning. >>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>RFC822 header >>----------------------------------- >> >>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >> (SMTPD32-4.03) id A6582CE0276; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:25:12 MST >>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) >> id 0y7M7X-0002Pp-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:11 -0700 >>Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) >> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >> id 0y7M7U-0002Ov-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:08 -0700 >>Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) >id >>IAA17547 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:05 >-0700 (MST) >>Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR01 [207.68.143.137] >> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >> id 0y7Jdw-0002JL-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:39:28 -0700 >>Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.225 by email.msn.com with Microsoft > >>SMTPSVC; >> Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:38:22 -0800 >>From: "David Tippets" >>To: >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning >>Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:36:41 -0700 >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >>Message-ID: <0fe8a2238121828UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> >>Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Precedence: bulk >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>X-UIDL: 881270251 >>Status: U >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Gourd Canteens) Date: 28 Feb 1998 06:20:32 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4410.F90287A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well I have had luck with a mix of 1/4 beeswax and 3/4 wax the bees wax softens the paraffin wax so it don't flake off so bad and you don't get the taste of the bees wax so bad Later Jon T ---------- : From: Henry B. Crawford : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Gourd Canteens) : Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 2:26 PM : : >After reading all the different responses something came to mind and : >thought I would throw it out for some correct answers. : > : >Have several gourd canteens, and they really make the water taste BAD. : >Is there anything that can be used to coat the inside and make the water : >not taste bad. Have tried melted bees wax, only marginally successful, : >needed to be re-applied after several uses. Have talked with several : >paint stores and none of them have any paints that they think you can : >safely drink after having water sat on it awhile. : > : : Well, Tim, I never tried beeswax, but regular parafin works for me and : leaves no bad taste. The trick is (after the gourd has been cleaned out) : to pour melted wax into the gourd a couple of times to get at least two : layers of wax down. To test the wax barrier, after the gourd cools, pour : some water into it and leave it overnight. Drink the water the water the : next day. It might taste a bit stale because it sat for several hours, and : a very slight hint of gourd taste might remain, but that should not : overpower the taste of the water itself. : : Try it. : : HBC : : ***************************************** : Henry B. Crawford Curator of History : mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University : 806/742-2442 Box 43191 : FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 : WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum : ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4410.F90287A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well I have had luck with a mix of 1/4 = beeswax and 3/4 wax the bees wax softens the paraffin wax so it = don't flake off so bad and you don't get the taste of the bees wax = so bad Later Jon T

----------
: From: Henry B. Crawford = <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Gourd Canteens)
: = the different responses something came to mind and
: >thought I = would throw it out for some correct answers.
: >
: >Have = several gourd canteens, and they really make the water taste BAD.
: = >Is there anything that can be used to coat the inside and make the = water
: >not taste bad. Have tried melted bees wax, only = marginally successful,
: >needed to be re-applied after several = uses. Have talked with several
: >paint stores and none of = them have any paints that they think you can
: >safely drink after = having water sat on it awhile.
: >
:
: Well, Tim, I never = tried beeswax, but regular parafin works for me and
: leaves no bad = taste. The trick is (after the gourd has been cleaned out)
: to = pour melted wax into the gourd a couple of times to get at least = two
: layers of wax down. To test the wax barrier, after the = gourd cools, pour
: some water into it and leave it overnight. = Drink the water the water the
: next day. It might taste = a bit stale because it sat for several hours, and
: a very slight = hint of gourd taste might remain, but that should not
: overpower the = taste of the water itself.
:
: Try it.
:
: HBC
:
: = *****************************************
: Henry B. Crawford =        Curator of History
: mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu =     Museum of Texas Tech University
: = 806/742-2442 =           Box = 43191
: FAX 742-1136 =             L= ubbock, TX 79409-3191
: =             &= nbsp;  WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
: *************    So Long, Harry =    **************

------=_NextPart_000_01BD4410.F90287A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Latex Paint Date: 28 Feb 1998 10:05:52 -0600 Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary lists the earliest recorded use in English of the word 'latex' in 1835. That sense of the word is: the milky usually white fluid that is produced by cells of various seed plants (such as of the milkweed, spurge, and poppy families) and is the source of rubber, gutta-percha, chicle, and balata. Iron Burner Ron Valley wrote: > > Scott A. writes "I've found references to > latex paint back to 1741. . . . > 3.) If the term "latex" did exist in 1741, does it have the same meaning > today as it did then????? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gourd Canteens Date: 28 Feb 1998 09:58:38 -0800 > Have several gourd canteens, and they really make the water taste BAD. > Is there anything that can be used to coat the inside and make the water > not taste bad. Have tried melted bees wax, only marginally successful, > needed to be re-applied after several uses. I use parafin and have not had any trouble. Make sure you have cleaned the gourd well in the beginning. After removing the seeds, I put a couple of handfulls of pea sized gravel in and swirl it while holding the canteen in a horizontal position. The gravel will remove all the organic webbing that was attached to the seeds. Dump out the gravel and rinse with water. I then turn it upside down and let it drain and dry out for a couple days. After it is dry I melt about 1/2 pound of parafin, pour it in the canteen, and plug it. It will be real hot so have a towel or gloves to protect your hands. Slosh and swirl the parafin all around, pull the plug, and dump out the excess before it dries. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous time Date: 28 Feb 1998 15:13:45 -0700 >Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:50:18 -0600 >From: mike perry >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) >To: drudy@xmission.com >Subject: Rendezvous time >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by door.jcave.com id GAA07953 > >I know that some of you already know about this and I hope I don=92t mak= e >anyone mad by just sending ya a message about it. > >Fort Buenaventura Annual Easter Weekend Rendezvous in Ogden Utah April >11th and 12th. Setup begins April 10th with hand delivered registration >starting starting the 4th of April. Pre-1840 dress for all 14 years and >older participants is required and 13 and younger is recommended. The >usual activities will be taking place along with an Easter egg hunt for >camping children only. Traders welcome. Camping for primitive and tin >teepees. Tell your friends and come on out and enjoy the weekend. I=92= ll >be the one selling medallions on the corner of the fort so stop by and >pick one up and chat if you make it.=20 > >E-mail me if you want further information. > >Mike Perry >perrym@jcave.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping Date: 28 Feb 1998 23:22:55 -0700 If you have a problem with beaver depredation, you need to look at beaver trapping for the perspective of a depredation trapping speicalist -- which is a different art than fur trapping. A fur trapper would want to leave some beaver for seed and not trap the very last ones. However, some professional trappers practice both arts well. Either Hal Sullivan or Charlie Dobbins made a video on summertime depredation beaver trapping which may offer you some insights. It's advertised for sale frequently in Fur, Fish, and Game Magazine. Old mountain man, lure maker, and professional trapper Calvin (Cobby) Cobbs sometimes gives private depredaton trapping lessons for those who can afford to pay for his knowledge. Have fun trying to outsmart the survivors. -----Original Message----- >could use a little input been trapping in the same lake the last few years >tring to get rid of the beavers.can not get the remaining few.I am using >conibear any 4 long spring.trapped in creeks ten year are so and always do >good with rat coon beaver and mink.anyone got any great sets youb are willing >to let me in on. > rick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 28 Feb 1998 23:06:29 -0700 John, As per yer closing comment -- where do you find horses wearing mocassins and why shouldn't said horses be kicked in the ass? I never met a horse, or a person, that didn't occasionally need to be kicked in the ass. Quote must have come from lover of Indian ponies -- maybe predessors to the PETA people. Dave -----Original Message----- >There is no question one horse travel teaches you to trim down your gear. >An essential lesson of survival. Wandering on foot teaches much the same. > >To fully understand the compleat experience Two Squaws is right, you need >to do a few hundred carefree miles with a couple of pack animals. > >It will be surprising what you learn. I invented a couple of dozen new >swear words over a 13 hand appaloosa aptly named Lil' Devil. He inspired >the sig file at the bottom. > >Both ways teach, the long trail with a pack string will certainly teach the >most. A spare animal is handy on the long trail. > >Part of the time I was out I rode with Pawnee and The Walrus, between us we >had 9 animals. Cuts a pretty wide swath in the modern world, sometimes >poor bull for the stock. Duties were interchangeable among the animals but >we each basically had a rider, a packer and a spare on the string. > >Fewer animals can easier find sufficient graze on an extended basis. >Doesn't leave such a broad and easy trail for hostiles to track. > >John... > >"Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980 > >john > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning Date: 28 Feb 1998 22:52:23 -0700 John, Thanks, now I've just to find an asphalt claim to jump. Dave -----Original Message----- >At 12:23 AM 2/26/98 , David Tippets wrote: >>John, >> >>Thanks for all the information. I'm still in the dark about asphaltum. >>When I drove to Grand Junction last month, I stopped at a historical marker >>between Price and Green River. To my surprise the marker noted the >>importance of asphalt mined in the area. >> >>I don't want to push my luck and expect too much from your information >>stores, but is naturally occuring asphalt ore something that Indians, >>mountain men, or pioneers made use of without needing fancy refining >>facilities? >> > >The short answer is, YEP! They had some methods of basic refinement. >Asphalt has been used for a long time, just not for driveways back then. >They also used it without the cheap starchy rock filler we usually see. > >If you are deadly serious about trying some old ways, first acquire the >necessary materials, I'll find time to dig out the recipes and processes. > >While checking out some other things this afternoon I found in MacKenzie >the following: > >TO MAKE BLACK JAPAN >Take of boiled oil 1 gallon, umber 8 oz., asphaltum 3 oz., oil of >turpentine as much as will reduce it to the thinness required. > >end quote ... > >This should at least give you a starting point for quantities and >relationships. > >John... > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer >kramer@kramerize.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soapmaking Date: 26 Feb 1998 13:55:20 -0700 I have ties, but I only wear them on Sunday... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pearce Gardner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides Date: 21 Feb 1998 14:48:06 -0500 Longtrail asked about obtaining a supply of deer hides. Last summer, the Game Dept. gave a local landowner damage permits to kill a truck load of deer. Some of the farm hands took their rifles and each evening would shoot until the barrels overheated on their rifles and/or the deer all ran back into the woods, then would take and field dress the deer and put them in a refrigerated truck which "Hunters for the Hungry" donated. This went on until the truck was full. The truck then took the deer to a processing plant where they were butchered and the meat given to the hungry. You may want to check with Hunters for the Hungry to find out about the plans for this summer. Check out http://www.flash.net/~unicom/hungry/hungry1.htm for an index listing across the Country. Good luck. Bwana