From: "Keith Irwin" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Cataloging gov't docs Date: 11 Jun 2002 21:46:06 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C21191.67E8B7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How do you catalog government documents like presidential or other messages to congress? For example, how would you catalog Phillip St. George Cooke's journal of the Mormon Battalion march? It is a senate document titled, "Report of the Secretary of War ." The Secretary is Asbury Dickins. So do you catalog this under Dickins, Cooke, or U.S. Senate? I've puzzled over this with presidential messages having to do with the Utah war. Do you catalog them under Buchannan? Keith ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C21191.67E8B7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cataloging gov't docs

How = do you catalog government documents like presidential or other messages to = congress?  For example, how would you catalog Phillip St. = George Cooke’s journal of the Mormon = Battalion march?  It is a senate document = titled, = “Report of the Secretary of = War …”  The Secretary is Asbury Dickins.  So do you = catalog this under Dickins, Cooke, or U.S. Senate?

I’ve puzzled over this with presidential messages having to = do with the Utah war.  Do you catalog them under Buchannan? =

Keith

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C21191.67E8B7F0-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Cataloging gov't docs Date: 11 Jun 2002 22:57:00 -0600 Here's how the BYU library cataloged it: Personal Author: Cooke, Philip St. George, 1809-1895. =20 Title: Report from the Secretary of War : communicating, in compliance with a resolution of the Senate, of the 21st February, 1849, a copy of the official journal of Lieutenant Colonel Philip St. George Cooke, from Santa F=E9 to San Diego, &c. =20 Publication info: [Washington : Printed at the Union Office, 1849] =20 Physical description: 85 p. ; 23 cm. =20 Series: Senate document (United States. Congress. Senate) ; 31st Congress, Special session, no.2 =20 Series: Document / 31st Congress, Special session, Senate ; no.2 =20 General Note: "March 19, 1849. Read, and ordered to be printed." =20 References: Flake, C.J. Mormon bib., 2500 =20 Local note: Cooke commanded the Mormon Battalion. =20 Corporate subject: United States. Army. Mormon Battalion. =20 Subject term: Mexican War, 1846-1848. =20 Geographic term: Southwest, New--Description and travel. =20 Geographic term: United States--Exploring expeditions. =20 Added Author: United States. War Dept. =20 >>> irwinkw@earthlink.net 06/11/02 10:46PM >>> How do you catalog government documents like presidential or other messages to congress? For example, how would you catalog Phillip St. George Cooke's journal of the Mormon Battalion march? It is a senate document titled, "Report of the Secretary of War ." The Secretary is Asbury Dickins. So do you catalog this under Dickins, Cooke, or U.S. Senate? I've puzzled over this with presidential messages having to do with the Utah war. Do you catalog them under Buchannan?=20 Keith - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Cataloging gov't docs Date: 12 Jun 2002 13:49:58 EDT In a message dated 6/12/02 12:45:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, irwinkw@earthlink.net writes: << How do you catalog government documents like presidential or other messages to congress? For example, how would you catalog Phillip St. George Cooke's journal of the Mormon Battalion march? It is a senate document titled, "Report of the Secretary of War ." The Secretary is Asbury Dickins. So do you catalog this under Dickins, Cooke, or U.S. Senate? I've puzzled over this with presidential messages having to do with the Utah war. Do you catalog them under Buchannan? Keith >> This is a highly complex issue, with many aspects to consider. Fortunately for the private collector, one is free to catalog an item in any consistent manner one wishes, if it is merely being cataloged for one's own collection organization & control. If, on the other hand, the goal is to achieve consistency with other collections or researchers, one must choose the community or format to which one wants to conform. The concept of "main entry" is central to library cataloging. The main entry is the initial heading, the first words one sees at the beginning of a cataloging entry for a publication. If followed according to commonly accepted research library standards, the assigning of main entry is technical but highly consistent. In the new age of computers, of course, much of the danger of missing an item, or of inadvertent duplicate buying and duplicate cataloging, is removed. This is because the computer can search under many different fields. But before computers, it was essential that everyone establish and use the same main entry. Otherwise, one might search a library card catalog under the wrong heading, and miss the book. One of my central duties at BYU library in the 1970s was to oversee the checking of all items (yikes! hundreds of thousands of them) given or offered for sale to the library, to see if we already had the item. It was not sufficient to trust secondary entries (such as subject or title entry cards), because only the main entry card was absolutely guaranteed. Titles can vary, for example, depending on whether one uses the full title with introductory caption, or just the commonly quoted portion of the title. Try looking up Jonathan Edwards' FREEDOM OF THE WILL under that title, and you may not find it in a card catalog (the computer, of course, will find it if the search parameters are set correctly). Boring? Probably, but the concept of "main entry" introduces an awareness of extreme bibliographic discipline which most collectors non-librarians do not enjoy. Cataloging a book is at least as technical as doing an algebra problem - if you care about that sort of thing. Chad Flake uses standard library main entries, except in those areas of Mormonism where it becomes necessary to devise his own entries using the principles of general library rules (because of the wider breadth or greater numbers of items available to him in the narrower world of Mormonism which might not be handled adequately by the cataloging rules of the general library world). In general, a single author's name is the main entry of that book. In most anonymous books, the title is the main entry. If a government report is issued in an official agency capacity, the main entry is often the governmental entity issuing the report. But if a report is clearly a private undertaking or individual initiative, even if published by a governmental entity, it may have the author's name as its main entry. Thus, Keith's report by Cooke is listed in Flake (entry 2500) under "Cooke, Philip St. George," as contrasted by similar items like Flake entries 9249-51 (other reports of Secretaries of War, transmitted by the President to Congress, and listed under the main entry, "United States. War Department"). Similarly, some documents have "Utah (Territory) Governor. 1850-1858 (Young)" as the main entry (remember, this is a MAIN entry, NOT a subject entry), and some have "Young, Brigham" as the main entry. Some entries LOOK like subject entries, but are legitimate main entries, as agreed upon over the years by library consensus. Thus, "Shakers" is the legitimate main entry (again, NOT the subject entry in this particular capacity, though "Shakers" might ALSO be a legitimate subject entry to consider) for the Shaker book, A SUMMARY VIEW OF THE MILLENNIAL CHURCH . . . (Albany, 1823, compiled by joint editors Calvin Green and Seth Y. Wells). So what does this all mean? Well, here is an entry in the periodicals portion of the bibliography of my friend Dan Vogel's book, INDIAN ORIGINS AND THE BOOK OF MORMON: "Collections of the Massachusetts Historical Society. Boston, 1792-19- . . ." GASP! <> no! no! no! This can NOT work. Shame on Signature Books. I don't care WHAT the Chicago Manual of Style may dictate - it's just not good enough. Why? Because without using proper main entry, such a heading will get lost in a larger library among hundreds, conceivably thousands of other "Collections . . ." by other entities, and the poor researcher would spend all day hunting through the list. I specifically looked for this item in Dan's book years ago and failed to find it, because I was searching there under proper main entry. It simply never occurred to me that ANYONE could POSSIBLY think it correct to start such an entry with a word like "Collections" or "Transactions" or "Report of . . ." etc. I don't have the National Union Catalog in front of me (obviously - more than 700 folio volumes, more then 50,000 PAGES of entries beginning with the letter "S" alone), but the correct main entry of the above might be something like this: Massachusetts Historical Society (Boston). Collections. First series, 1792- . . . The above may not be precisely correct, but it gives the general idea. It is orderly, it is organized, and it will be consistent in serious libraries from Seattle to Miami. Here are some interesting correct main entries, showing the variety, and yes, the occasional insanity of the old but consistent system: SAMPLE MAIN ENTRIES - none of the following words represent parts of the titles of the books. In the actual cataloged entries, the titles would be placed immediately following these main entries. American Antiquarian Society. Brown, John. Bible. New Testament. Timothy. Cherokee. 1844. Worcester. [yes, all of this is required, and none of this is intended here as part of the title. It takes five massive volumes of the National Union Catalog to get through "Bible," and such a detailed system is necessary to guarnatee some semblance of order and logical arrangement] Bible. Old Testament. Apocryphal Books. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. English. 1843. Book of Mormon. Spanish. 1886. Kelly, Charles, and Maurice L. Howe. Hewett, Edgar Lee, Junius Henderson, and Wilfred William Robbins. [more than 3 authors reverts to title, I believe, or to the first individual given, followed by "comp., ed.," or whatever applies, if memory serves.] Deseret. University. [for the two Deseret primers] Haussonville, Gabriel Paul Othenin de Cleron, comte d'. Austria. Laws, statutes, etc. Margaret of Austria, Duchess of Parma. Gachard, Louis Prosper, ed. Justinus, Marcus Junianus [plain old Justin; many ancient and medieval names are more complex than the single-word names by which we know them in common parlance today] Lytton, Edward George, Lord. Equitable Society of London. [an early insurance company] France. Assemblee National Constituante, 1789-1791. Paris. Bibliotheque Nationale, Departement des Manuscrits. Smithsonian Institution. Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 78. [again, this is main entry, not any part of the title] Again, if you are just having fun cataloging your own collection, none of this is really necessary. But, we old book & mss. people enjoy a certain amount of tradition. For those of us crazy enough to think this is fun, there is sufficient tradition and punctilious precision to excite us in the quest for correct main entries. Rick Grunder - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Irwin" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Cataloging gov't docs Date: 12 Jun 2002 20:40:51 -0700 I'm going to hire you, Rick. It was the seeming conflicting methods in Flake that threw me. The example I used is listed under Cooke but others are listed as you described - by government, office, dates and name of officer. I will have to think about this a bit and decide on a consistent method. Right now I've got every schema imaginable. Keith -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of RickBook@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 9:50 AM In a message dated 6/12/02 12:45:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, irwinkw@earthlink.net writes: << How do you catalog government documents like presidential or other messages to congress? For example, how would you catalog Phillip St. George Cooke's journal of the Mormon Battalion march? It is a senate document titled, "Report of the Secretary of War ." The Secretary is Asbury Dickins. So do you catalog this under Dickins, Cooke, or U.S. Senate? I've puzzled over this with presidential messages having to do with the Utah war. Do you catalog them under Buchannan? Keith >> This is a highly complex issue, with many aspects to consider. Fortunately for the private collector, one is free to catalog an item in any consistent manner one wishes, if it is merely being cataloged for one's own collection organization & control. If, on the other hand, the goal is to achieve consistency with other collections or researchers, one must choose the community or format to which one wants to conform. The concept of "main entry" is central to library cataloging. The main entry is the initial heading, the first words one sees at the beginning of a cataloging entry for a publication. If followed according to commonly accepted research library standards, the assigning of main entry is technical but highly consistent. In the new age of computers, of course, much of the danger of missing an item, or of inadvertent duplicate buying and duplicate cataloging, is removed. This is because the computer can search under many different fields. But before computers, it was essential that everyone establish and use the same main entry. Otherwise, one might search a library card catalog under the wrong heading, and miss the book. One of my central duties at BYU library in the 1970s was to oversee the checking of all items (yikes! hundreds of thousands of them) given or offered for sale to the library, to see if we already had the item. It was not sufficient to trust secondary entries (such as subject or title entry cards), because only the main entry card was absolutely guaranteed. Titles can vary, for example, depending on whether one uses the full title with introductory caption, or just the commonly quoted portion of the title. Try looking up Jonathan Edwards' FREEDOM OF THE WILL under that title, and you may not find it in a card catalog (the computer, of course, will find it if the search parameters are set correctly). Boring? Probably, but the concept of "main entry" introduces an awareness of extreme bibliographic discipline which most collectors non-librarians do not enjoy. Cataloging a book is at least as technical as doing an algebra problem - if you care about that sort of thing. Chad Flake uses standard library main entries, except in those areas of Mormonism where it becomes necessary to devise his own entries using the principles of general library rules (because of the wider breadth or greater numbers of items available to him in the narrower world of Mormonism which might not be handled adequately by the cataloging rules of the general library world). In general, a single author's name is the main entry of that book. In most anonymous books, the title is the main entry. If a government report is issued in an official agency capacity, the main entry is often the governmental entity issuing the report. But if a report is clearly a private undertaking or individual initiative, even if published by a governmental entity, it may have the author's name as its main entry. Thus, Keith's report by Cooke is listed in Flake (entry 2500) under "Cooke, Philip St. George," as contrasted by similar items like Flake entries 9249-51 (other reports of Secretaries of War, transmitted by the President to Congress, and listed under the main entry, "United States. War Department"). Similarly, some documents have "Utah (Territory) Governor. 1850-1858 (Young)" as the main entry (remember, this is a MAIN entry, NOT a subject entry), and some have "Young, Brigham" as the main entry. Some entries LOOK like subject entries, but are legitimate main entries, as agreed upon over the years by library consensus. Thus, "Shakers" is the legitimate main entry (again, NOT the subject entry in this particular capacity, though "Shakers" might ALSO be a legitimate subject entry to consider) for the Shaker book, A SUMMARY VIEW OF THE MILLENNIAL CHURCH . . . (Albany, 1823, compiled by joint editors Calvin Green and Seth Y. Wells). So what does this all mean? Well, here is an entry in the periodicals portion of the bibliography of my friend Dan Vogel's book, INDIAN ORIGINS AND THE BOOK OF MORMON: "Collections of the Massachusetts Historical Society. Boston, 1792-19- . . ." GASP! <> no! no! no! This can NOT work. Shame on Signature Books. I don't care WHAT the Chicago Manual of Style may dictate - it's just not good enough. Why? Because without using proper main entry, such a heading will get lost in a larger library among hundreds, conceivably thousands of other "Collections . . ." by other entities, and the poor researcher would spend all day hunting through the list. I specifically looked for this item in Dan's book years ago and failed to find it, because I was searching there under proper main entry. It simply never occurred to me that ANYONE could POSSIBLY think it correct to start such an entry with a word like "Collections" or "Transactions" or "Report of . . ." etc. I don't have the National Union Catalog in front of me (obviously - more than 700 folio volumes, more then 50,000 PAGES of entries beginning with the letter "S" alone), but the correct main entry of the above might be something like this: Massachusetts Historical Society (Boston). Collections. First series, 1792- . . . The above may not be precisely correct, but it gives the general idea. It is orderly, it is organized, and it will be consistent in serious libraries from Seattle to Miami. Here are some interesting correct main entries, showing the variety, and yes, the occasional insanity of the old but consistent system: SAMPLE MAIN ENTRIES - none of the following words represent parts of the titles of the books. In the actual cataloged entries, the titles would be placed immediately following these main entries. American Antiquarian Society. Brown, John. Bible. New Testament. Timothy. Cherokee. 1844. Worcester. [yes, all of this is required, and none of this is intended here as part of the title. It takes five massive volumes of the National Union Catalog to get through "Bible," and such a detailed system is necessary to guarnatee some semblance of order and logical arrangement] Bible. Old Testament. Apocryphal Books. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. English. 1843. Book of Mormon. Spanish. 1886. Kelly, Charles, and Maurice L. Howe. Hewett, Edgar Lee, Junius Henderson, and Wilfred William Robbins. [more than 3 authors reverts to title, I believe, or to the first individual given, followed by "comp., ed.," or whatever applies, if memory serves.] Deseret. University. [for the two Deseret primers] Haussonville, Gabriel Paul Othenin de Cleron, comte d'. Austria. Laws, statutes, etc. Margaret of Austria, Duchess of Parma. Gachard, Louis Prosper, ed. Justinus, Marcus Junianus [plain old Justin; many ancient and medieval names are more complex than the single-word names by which we know them in common parlance today] Lytton, Edward George, Lord. Equitable Society of London. [an early insurance company] France. Assemblee National Constituante, 1789-1791. Paris. Bibliotheque Nationale, Departement des Manuscrits. Smithsonian Institution. Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 78. [again, this is main entry, not any part of the title] Again, if you are just having fun cataloging your own collection, none of this is really necessary. But, we old book & mss. people enjoy a certain amount of tradition. For those of us crazy enough to think this is fun, there is sufficient tradition and punctilious precision to excite us in the quest for correct main entries. Rick Grunder - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Irwin" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Cataloging gov't docs Date: 12 Jun 2002 20:43:35 -0700 Yeesh! =20 And do you have that many fields in your list of books, Morgan? Keith -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Morgan Adair Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 8:57 PM Here's how the BYU library cataloged it: Personal Author: Cooke, Philip St. George, 1809-1895. =20 Title: Report from the Secretary of War : communicating, in compliance with a resolution of the Senate, of the 21st February, 1849, a copy of the official journal of Lieutenant Colonel Philip St. George Cooke, from Santa F=E9 to San Diego, &c. =20 Publication info: [Washington : Printed at the Union Office, 1849] =20 Physical description: 85 p. ; 23 cm. =20 Series: Senate document (United States. Congress. Senate) ; 31st Congress, Special session, no.2 =20 Series: Document / 31st Congress, Special session, Senate ; no.2 =20 General Note: "March 19, 1849. Read, and ordered to be printed." =20 References: Flake, C.J. Mormon bib., 2500 =20 Local note: Cooke commanded the Mormon Battalion. =20 Corporate subject: United States. Army. Mormon Battalion. =20 Subject term: Mexican War, 1846-1848. =20 Geographic term: Southwest, New--Description and travel. =20 Geographic term: United States--Exploring expeditions. =20 Added Author: United States. War Dept. =20 >>> irwinkw@earthlink.net 06/11/02 10:46PM >>> How do you catalog government documents like presidential or other messages to congress? For example, how would you catalog Phillip St. George Cooke's journal of the Mormon Battalion march? It is a senate document titled, "Report of the Secretary of War ." The Secretary is Asbury Dickins. So do you catalog this under Dickins, Cooke, or U.S. Senate? I've puzzled over this with presidential messages having to do with the Utah war. Do you catalog them under Buchannan?=20 Keith - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Cataloging gov't docs Date: 12 Jun 2002 22:39:16 -0600 >>> irwinkw@earthlink.net 06/12/02 09:43PM >>> >Yeesh! > >And do you have that many fields in your list of books, Morgan? Pretty much all of those and more, though I don't use all of them. Here are the database fields that I use: Author Author 2 Author 3 Title ISBN Publisher Copyright Date Format First Signed Purchase Priority Copies Category Read Value Comments Wanted Series Volume Pages Keywords Edition Printing Purchased Date Purchase Price Purchased From Cover thumbnail Cover thumbnail file name And the ones that are defined in the database that I don't use: Publication Date Publication Place Rating Condition Date Entered Source Ordered LCCN Dewey Value Date Location Dimensions Author 4 Author 5 Author 6 Loaned To Loan Date Loan Due MBA - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Cataloging gov't docs Date: 13 Jun 2002 10:50:21 EDT In a message dated 6/12/02 11:41:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, irwinkw@earthlink.net writes: << It was the seeming conflicting methods in Flake that threw me. The example I used is listed under Cooke but others are listed as you described - by government, office, dates and name of officer. >> Truth be told, it sometimes comes down to human inconsistency. Some of the items cataloged fall clearly into either personal or institutional categories. But there will always those middle-of-the-road items. In fact, some items appear in Flake twice, inadvertently, cataloged at different times under different main entries. Example: Flake 1139, which is also Flake 10,120. The 1139 entry appears to be the better cataloging job. - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Eccles" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Cataloging gov't docs Date: 13 Jun 2002 08:26:36 -0700 Rick: I've heard of reading phone books but checking bibliographies for duplicates?? Oh well, those long hard winters in upstate NY must really take their toll on you.. --Steve -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of RickBook@aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 7:50 AM In a message dated 6/12/02 11:41:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, irwinkw@earthlink.net writes: << It was the seeming conflicting methods in Flake that threw me. The example I used is listed under Cooke but others are listed as you described - by government, office, dates and name of officer. >> Truth be told, it sometimes comes down to human inconsistency. Some of the items cataloged fall clearly into either personal or institutional categories. But there will always those middle-of-the-road items. In fact, some items appear in Flake twice, inadvertently, cataloged at different times under different main entries. Example: Flake 1139, which is also Flake 10,120. The 1139 entry appears to be the better cataloging job. - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Cataloging gov't docs Date: 13 Jun 2002 11:47:29 EDT In a message dated 6/13/02 11:28:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, steve.eccles2@verizon.net writes: << I've heard of reading phone books but checking bibliographies for duplicates?? Oh well, those long hard winters in upstate NY must really take their toll on you.. >> While using a book for 24 years, one bumps into these things in it without even looking! - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Irwin" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Books for Sale Date: 22 Jun 2002 15:43:15 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C21A03.89B4B260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm selling the following books from my collection and thought I'd give bookshelfers the first shot at them. All are quite nice copies. I've priced them attractively as I'd like to move them quickly: Kelly, Charles OLD GREENWOOD - THE STORY OF CALEB GREENWOOD - TRAPPER, PATHFINDER, AND EARLY PIONEER OF THE WEST, Salt Lake City, 1936. 1st edition, #285 of 350 copies. Signed by Kelly. Vg+. This is a very attractive copy of one of Kelly's scarcer books. Old Greenwood was one of the early fur trappers, led the first wagon train to California in 1844, was an agent for Sutter, and even took a shot at rescuing the Donner party. This is the first biography of an interesting character of western history. $250 Kelly, Charles, SALT DESERT TRAILS, Salt Lake City, 1930, rubbing on corners of spine as is common with this book, otherwise vg, Kelly tells the story of the early wagon trains that crossed the Great Salt Lake desert. Includes chapters on the Bartleson party (the first to reach California), Fremont's exploration led by Kit Carson, the ill-fated Donner party, the 49ers, and even a chapter on a strange crossing by bicycle. Kelly is a great storyteller. $150 Remy, Jules and Julius Brenchley, A JOURNEY TO GREAT SALT LAKE CITY WITH A SKETCH OF THE CUSTOMS OF THE MORMONS AND AN INTRODUCTION ON THE RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES., London, 1861, First English edition. Two volumes. Original blue embossed cloth. Engraved plates of Brigham Young, Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Fold out map, chronological summary, notes, bibliography and index. Front board on Vol 1 is separating, some staining on the covers. Hinge is starting on Vol II. Crown of spine is chipped on both volumes. I've put mylar around these bindings to protect them. Some light foxing. These are nice copies of a rather complementary look at the Mormons by outsiders. Remy and Brenchley were famous for the reporting of their scientific explorations around the globe. They spent part of the summer of 1855 in Utah and produced a detailed description of early Utah and Mormon life that ranks among the best. Wagner-Camp 364, Flake 6867 $850 Stansbury, Howard, EXPLORATION AND SURVEY OF THE VALLEY OF THE GREAT SALT LAKE OF UTAH, INCLUDING A RECONNAISSANCE OF A NEW ROUTE THROUGH THE ROCKEY MOUNTAINS. Washington, 1853. This is the Senate (2nd) edition of this important work and INCLUDES the very scarce map volume. This is an exceptional copy. There is sunning to the spine, the map volume spine is cracked, and the usual foxing is throughout. As is often the case with this government publication there are multiple copies of many plates (many tinted) but three others are missing. Otherwise this is one of the nicest copies of this book I've ever seen. The Stansbury expedition remains the landmark survey of the Utah Valley and his observations of the geography as well as Mormon and native inhabitants are frequently cited by modern historians. Wagner-Camp 219:3, Flake 8359. $750. Shipping priority mail insured : Kelly books - $7.00 Remy & Brenchley - $17.70 Stansbury - $15,45 Keith (408) 268-6350 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C21A03.89B4B260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Books for Sale

I’m selling the following books from my collection = and thought I’d give bookshelfers the first shot at them.  = All are quite nice copies.  I’ve priced them attractively as = I’d like to move them quickly:

Kelly, Charles  OLD GREENWOOD – THE STORY OF = CALEB GREENWOOD – TRAPPER, PATHFINDER, AND EARLY PIONEER OF THE = WEST, Salt Lake City, 1936.  1st edition, #285 of 350 = copies.  Signed by Kelly.  Vg+.  This is a very = attractive copy of one of Kelly’s scarcer books.  Old = Greenwood was one of the early fur trappers, led the first wagon train = to California in 1844, was an agent for Sutter, and even took a shot at = rescuing the Donner party.  This is the first biography of an = interesting character of western history.  $250

Kelly, Charles,  SALT DESERT TRAILS, Salt Lake City, = 1930,  rubbing on corners of spine as is common with this book, = otherwise vg,  Kelly tells the story of the early wagon trains that = crossed the Great Salt Lake desert.  Includes chapters on the = Bartleson party (the first to reach California),  Fremont’s = exploration led by Kit Carson, the ill-fated Donner party, the 49ers, = and even a chapter on a strange crossing by bicycle.  Kelly is a = great storyteller.  $150

Remy, = Jules and Julius Brenchley,  A JOURNEY TO GREAT SALT LAKE CITY WITH = A SKETCH OF THE CUSTOMS OF THE MORMONS AND AN INTRODUCTION ON THE = RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES., London, 1861, First English = edition.  Two volumes.  Original blue embossed cloth.  = Engraved plates of Brigham Young, Joseph and Hyrum Smith.  Fold out = map, chronological summary, notes, bibliography and index.  Front = board on Vol 1 is separating, some staining on the = covers.  Hinge is starting on Vol II.  Crown of spine = is chipped on both volumes.  I’ve put mylar around these = bindings to protect them.  Some light foxing.  These are nice = copies of a rather complementary look at the Mormons by outsiders.  = Remy and Brenchley were famous for the reporting of their scientific = explorations around the globe.  They spent part of the summer of = 1855 in Utah and produced a detailed description of early Utah and = Mormon life that ranks among the best.  Wagner-Camp 364,  = Flake 6867       $850

Stansbury, Howard, EXPLORATION AND SURVEY OF THE VALLEY = OF THE GREAT SALT LAKE OF UTAH, INCLUDING A RECONNAISSANCE OF A NEW = ROUTE THROUGH THE ROCKEY MOUNTAINS.  Washington, 1853.  This = is the Senate (2nd) edition of this important = work and INCLUDES the very scarce map volume.  This is an = exceptional copy.  There is sunning to the spine, the map volume = spine is cracked, and the usual foxing is throughout.  As is often = the case with this government publication there are multiple copies of = many plates (many tinted) but three others are missing.  Otherwise = this is one of the nicest copies of this book I’ve ever = seen.  The Stansbury expedition remains the landmark survey of the = Utah Valley and his observations of the geography as well as Mormon and = native inhabitants are frequently cited by modern = historians.  Wagner-Camp 219:3,  = Flake 8359.       $750. 


Shipping priority mail = insured :

Kelly = books – $7.00

Remy = & Brenchley - $17.70

Stansbury - $15,45

Keith

(408) = 268-6350





------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C21A03.89B4B260-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Curt Bench Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Greg Kofford's son lost Date: 24 Jun 2002 11:29:31 -0600 Many of you know book collector and publisher, Greg Kofford. I am sad to report that yesterday his four-year-old son, Simon, was lost in Little Cottonwood Canyon (in Salt Lake County) during a family outing and it is feared he may have drowned. After nearly 24 hours, he is still missing despite a major search effort by several search and rescue teams from local counties. I am sure Greg and his family would appreciate your thoughts and prayers during this very difficult time. Let's hope and pray for a happy outcome to this possibly tragic event. Curt Bench - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Curt Bench Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Greg Kofford's son lost Date: 24 Jun 2002 17:01:46 -0600 Curt Bench wrote: > Many of you know book collector and publisher, Greg Kofford. I am sad > to report that yesterday his four-year-old son, Simon, was lost in > Little Cottonwood Canyon (in Salt Lake County) during a family outing > and it is feared he may have drowned. After nearly 24 hours, he is > still missing despite a major search effort by several search and rescue > teams from local counties. > > I am sure Greg and his family would appreciate your thoughts and prayers > during this very difficult time. Let's hope and pray for a happy > outcome to this possibly tragic event. > > Curt Bench > > ---------------------------------------------------------- An update as of 4:30 MDT: Searchers have found Simon's shirt in Little Cottonwood Creek and have called off the land search. They are now searching the creek expecting to find his body there. The family is obviously very distraught in this terrible situation. CB - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Eccles" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Misc. Date: 25 Jun 2002 10:56:47 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C21C37.01161A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was at CostCo today looking for a book to spend a few hours with this afternoon and I bought a copy of Extraordinary Correspondence from American Wars: WAR LETTERS. If you haven't seen this, it is a NY Times Best Seller and is absolutely riveting. It covers all American Wars from the Civil War to Bosnia.l Really great stuff! They have a trade paper copy for less than $10.00. I also got a catalogue with a BY letter. The description reads: Fascinating and important Manuscript Letter Signed concerning the positioning of federal troops in Utah. 3 pages. Quarto. June 23, 1859. Very fine condition. $12,500. Hmmm . If I could buy this with my IRA, it would probably do better than the stock market has in the past couple of years! --Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C21C37.01161A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was at CostCo today looking for a = book to spend a few hours with this afternoon and I bought a = copy of Extraordinary Correspondence from American Wars: WAR LETTERS. If you haven’t seen this, it is a = NY Times Best Seller and is absolutely = riveting. It covers all American Wars from the Civil War to Bosnia.l Really great stuff!  They have a trade paper copy for less than = $10.00.

 

I also got a catalogue with a BY letter. The = description reads:

 

Fascinating and important Manuscript Letter Signed concerning the positioning of federal troops in Utah. 3 pages. Quarto. June 23, 1859. Very fine = condition.  $12,500.

 

Hmmm … If I could buy this with my IRA, it would probably do better than the stock market has in the past couple of years!

 

--Steve

 

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C21C37.01161A80-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] June 27 Date: 26 Jun 2002 22:11:45 EDT June 27, 1844 . . . "At Hyrum's home on Water Street, not far from the mansion House, Mary, Hyrum's wife, was keeping vigil over a sick child. Martha Ann, three years old, had a severe case of measles accompanied by a congestion in her lungs, and she could not speak above a whisper. Her mother walked the floor much depressed in spirits. For relief she would occasionally read the Bible. Martha Ann pleaded vainly that she should come to bed. When George D. Grant knocked at the door and delivered the news, the widow stepped back and calmly exclaimed, 'It cannot be possible, can it?' His answer was, 'Yes, it is too true.' "She fell back against the cupboard. Brother Grant helped her to a chair; and, as Martha Ann later wrote, 'The news flew like wild-fire through the house, and the anguish and sorrow that was felt can be easier felt than described. But that will never be forgotten by those who were called to go through it.'" [Martha Ann Smith Harris, "Message to My Posterity," March 22, 1881 (letter, Provo, Utah, opened April 6, 1930), cited in Pearson H. Corbett, Hyrum Smith, Patriarch (SLC, 1976), pp. 425-6 (providing variant source data, but see the bibliography, p. 446), adding in the footnote that "After his death her mother seldom smiled. If they could get her to laugh it was quite a feat."] - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Eccles" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Temple Dedication Date: 27 Jun 2002 19:06:11 -0700 If you didn't go to the Nauvoo Temple Dedication today, you missed some great history! President Hinckley talked about Thomas Ford and read part of Ford's History of Illinois. He was given a 1st edition years ago by friends, but said he also had a later edition and he brought the later edition with him. He read Ford's comments on JSmith's death & Ford's assessment of how the Church may continue and become a large organization. He then reviewed the demise of Ford, his wife and five children. Very interesting stuff. Hinckley was very emotional during this ceremony. I've never seen him break down and cry before. He had to stop talking two or three times. He spent a lot of time dwelling on the early Church. A small group fromt the Tabernacle Choir sung and they sang some great LDS early hymns. Great meeting! I doubt that Sunday's session will be the same but I'm sure it will have some good historical content. --Steve - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJRom@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Temple Dedication Date: 28 Jun 2002 02:03:14 EDT --part1_1a3.46da091.2a4d5622_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was a very emotional meeting. I was surprised that President Hinckley spent so much time talking about "Tom Ford," as he called him, and Ford's posterity in the setting of a Temple dedication. It was obviously something that he felt deeply about. It appeared that his "later edition" of Ford's history was probably one of the volumes of the 1945 two volume set. Some of the comments by speakers tied into the interesting paper that Richard Bennett gave at MHA on the history of performing endowments for the dead in the session where I was respondent. Although baptisms for the dead began in Nauvoo, even before the temple was built, it appears that the first endowments for the dead were not performed until nearly forty years later in January 1877 in the St. George temple. Finally, one question. Is there nineteenth century historical precedent for the use of white handkerchiefs as part of the Hosanna Shout? Brian In a message dated 6/27/2002 8:10:19 PM Mountain Daylight Time, steve.eccles2@verizon.net writes: > If you didn't go to the Nauvoo Temple Dedication today, you missed some > great history! President Hinckley talked about Thomas Ford and read part of > Ford's History of Illinois. He was given a 1st edition years ago by > friends, > but said he also had a later edition and he brought the later edition with > him. He read Ford's comments on JSmith's death & Ford's assessment of how > the Church may continue and become a large organization. He then reviewed > the demise of Ford, his wife and five children. Very interesting stuff. > > Hinckley was very emotional during this ceremony. I've never seen him break > down and cry before. He had to stop talking two or three times. He spent a > lot of time dwelling on the early Church. > > A small group fromt the Tabernacle Choir sung and they sang some great LDS > early hymns. > > > Great meeting! I doubt that Sunday's session will be the same but I'm sure > it will have some good historical content. > > --Steve > > --part1_1a3.46da091.2a4d5622_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was a very emotional meeting.  I was surprised that President Hinckley spent so much time talking about "Tom Ford," as he called him, and Ford's posterity in the setting of a Temple dedication. It was obviously something that he felt deeply about. It appeared that his "later edition" of Ford's history was probably one of the volumes of the 1945 two volume set.  Some of the comments by speakers tied into the interesting paper that Richard Bennett gave at MHA on the history of performing endowments for the dead in the session where I was respondent.  Although baptisms for the dead began in Nauvoo, even before the temple was built, it appears that the first endowments for the dead were not performed until nearly forty years later in January 1877 in the St. George temple.  Finally, one question.  Is there nineteenth century historical precedent for the use of white handkerchiefs as part of the Hosanna Shout?

Brian



In a message dated 6/27/2002 8:10:19 PM Mountain Daylight Time, steve.eccles2@verizon.net writes:


If you didn't go to the Nauvoo Temple Dedication today, you missed some
great history! President Hinckley talked about Thomas Ford and read part of
Ford's History of Illinois. He was given a 1st edition years ago by friends,
but said he also had a later edition and he brought the later edition with
him. He read Ford's comments on JSmith's death & Ford's assessment of how
the Church may continue and become a large organization. He then reviewed
the demise of Ford, his wife and five children. Very interesting stuff.

Hinckley was very emotional during this ceremony. I've never seen him break
down and cry before. He had to stop talking two or three times. He spent a
lot of time dwelling on the early Church.

A small group fromt the Tabernacle Choir sung and they sang some great LDS
early hymns.


Great meeting! I doubt that Sunday's session will be the same but I'm sure
it will have some good historical content.

--Steve



 --part1_1a3.46da091.2a4d5622_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Temple Dedication Date: 28 Jun 2002 10:28:05 EDT In a message dated 6/28/02 2:03:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BJRom@aol.com writes: << Is there nineteenth century historical precedent for the use of white handkerchiefs as part of the Hosanna Shout? >> Ah - more fodder for my Mormon parallels research! Thanks for the idea, Brian. - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mick Reasor" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Temple Dedication Date: 28 Jun 2002 21:12:52 -0500 I half expected the choir to sing the original words to "Praise to the = Man" Long shall the blood which was shed by assassins, stain Illinois... Mick <<< BJRom@aol.com 6/28 12:55a >>> It was a very emotional meeting. I was surprised that President = Hinckley=20 spent so much time talking about "Tom Ford," as he called him, and = Ford's=20 posterity in the setting of a Temple dedication. It was obviously = something=20 that he felt deeply about. It appeared that his "later edition" of = Ford's=20 history was probably one of the volumes of the 1945 two volume set. Some = of=20 the comments by speakers tied into the interesting paper that Richard = Bennett=20 gave at MHA on the history of performing endowments for the dead in the=20 session where I was respondent. Although baptisms for the dead began = in=20 Nauvoo, even before the temple was built, it appears that the first=20 endowments for the dead were not performed until nearly forty years later = in=20 January 1877 in the St. George temple. Finally, one question. Is = there=20 nineteenth century historical precedent for the use of white handkerchiefs = as=20 part of the Hosanna Shout? Brian In a message dated 6/27/2002 8:10:19 PM Mountain Daylight Time,=20 steve.eccles2@verizon.net writes: > If you didn't go to the Nauvoo Temple Dedication today, you missed some > great history! President Hinckley talked about Thomas Ford and read part = of > Ford's History of Illinois. He was given a 1st edition years ago by=20 > friends, > but said he also had a later edition and he brought the later edition = with > him. He read Ford's comments on JSmith's death & Ford's assessment of = how > the Church may continue and become a large organization. He then = reviewed > the demise of Ford, his wife and five children. Very interesting stuff. >=20 > Hinckley was very emotional during this ceremony. I've never seen him = break > down and cry before. He had to stop talking two or three times. He spent = a > lot of time dwelling on the early Church. >=20 > A small group fromt the Tabernacle Choir sung and they sang some great = LDS > early hymns. >=20 >=20 > Great meeting! I doubt that Sunday's session will be the same but I'm = sure > it will have some good historical content. >=20 > --Steve >=20 >=20 =20 - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Temple Dedication Date: 30 Jun 2002 20:19:18 -0600 ___ Brian ___ | Is there nineteenth century historical precedent for the use | of white handkerchiefs as part of the Hosanna Shout? ___ That'S an interesting question since technically they are supposed to be symbolic of palm leaves (which were rather rare in 19th century northeastern America). I'm not even sure if the hosanna shout of a dedication was ever formally tied to the feast of the tabernacles, although one could assume that Joseph was aware of that holiday by the time of Nauvoo. The Hosanna shout itself takes place not only at dedications, but also during annointings. Myself and my counsellors met for the purpose of being anointed with holy oil; ...Then the Presidency proceeded to sanctify the oil, br. J. Smith Junr. first anointed his father pronouncing blessings upon him, then all the presidents beginning at the oldest rubbed their hand over his head & face which had been anointed, then br. J. prayed to the Lord to accept of the anointing and all the presidency with right hand uplifted to heaven said amen." Other anointings also took place in the same manner. Hosanna shout to the most high before dismissal. (Journal of Bishop Edward Partridge, 21 January 1836 among many others) The shout was done at Kirtland for sure, although that too might be tied to washings and annointings. There were handkerchiefs used at the SLC dedication in 1892 I know. I couldn't find anything about St. George or Manti using the handkerchiefs although they did have the Hosanna shout. I'll check Masonic sources later to see if there is a parallel there. (See http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/set.htm ) -- Clark Goble --- clark@lextek.com ----------------------------- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Irwin" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Bancroft's Works Date: 30 Jun 2002 19:56:53 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C22070.4BBD0520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know of anything written on how Bancroft pulled together the History of Utah volume of his "works?" My set of Bancroft's Works was originally purchased by Joseph S. Hunter of Parowan. I'm curious if he was a contributor. Also, a "pictorial edition" of the Utah volume was done in 1890. Were pictorial editions done of other volumes in this set? Keith ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C22070.4BBD0520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bancroft's Works

Does = anyone know of anything written on how Bancroft pulled together the = History of Utah volume of his “works?”   My = set of = Bancroft’s Works was = originally purchased by Joseph S. Hunter of Parowan.  = I’m curious if he was a contributor.

Also, = a “pictorial edition” of the Utah volume was = done in 1890.  Were pictorial editions done of other volumes in = this set?

Keith

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