From: "Keith Irwin" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] FW: Death of Bookseller Kent Walgren in Paris Date: 02 Jun 2003 20:55:21 -0700 -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 2:31 PM Keith, I can't find the LDS Bookshelf address. Would you post this please? ken Dear LDS Bookshelfers, Many of you knew Kent Walgren, so I thought I would post this here. The details of his death are still unknown, but it appears as if he died in his sleep last Saturday evening at his apartment in Paris. Ken Sanders Dear Colleagues, I have just learned this morning of the death of one of my closest friends, the bookseller Kent Walgren, in Paris over the weekend. I first met Kent in the 1970s when I owned the Cosmic Aeroplane Bookstore here in Salt Lake City. He was a customer interested in books on Mormonism and freemasonry, among other things and we quickly became friends. We had somewhat lost track of one another over the ensuing years. Some six summers ago,unbeknownst to one another, i opened my current bookshop at the same time as Kent opened his. Some of you may have known Kent in his bookselling activities over the years, first as Scallywagania Books and later as Scallywag's Books. He had just attended the Paris book fair a week ago, where he mentioned to me that Lame Duck and or or two other ABAA members were present. Kent worked as a public utilities lawyer for the Attorney general's office and the law was killing his soul. Opening Scallywag Books was his attempt to escape all of that and find joy in his life. He and his wife Hanne sold their larger home in the avenues and moved into a smaller house near capitol hill. Kent sold his car and bought a bicycle. He joined a voluntary simplicity group and started taking French lessons in earnest. He became a vegetarian and redoubled his efforts to complete his lifelong quest to write his masonic bibliography. Almost every evening at 5:00 I would walk or drive the few blocks up third south that separated our stores, usually stopping on the way at the state wine store for a good bottle of red wine to assist in our philosophical discussions and arguments that were to follow. This went on for the entire 4 1/2 years that Scallywag Books existed. We became very close friends. But the bookstore wasn't enough for Kently as I had begun calling him by then; partially in retaliation for him nicknaming me Kenly. But it had become a term of endearment. Kent liked many aspects of the book trade, but others not so much. He was shocked and alrmed by the rising prices, especially in the Mormon end of the marketplace. he was very uncomfortable with the frenzied buying and the spiraling costs of high end Mormon books and ultimately disgusted with it. But I'm digressing. Kent was in his early fifties and felt that his life was slipping away from him. He wanted to accomplish something with whatever years he had remaining, something beyond what he had previously known. He had a desire for a great adventure, he had a passion for life and living, and whatever he was seeking, he went to Paris to find it. When he first told me the news of his wanting to close the bookshop and move to Paris, I didn't take it well. For entirely personal and selfish reasons, I wanted him to stay in Salt Lake, as an andidote for my despair. I did everything in my power to encourage him to stay, including becoming his best customer. I bought books from him almost daily. But Kent had made his mind up. The store would be sold, he would divorce his wife (whom he adored) and he was moving to Paris. Ultimately I would end up buying Kent's shop from him. First his incredible bibliogaphic reference library, ultimately the stock and the fixtures as well. Scallyway Books has been consumed whole by my bookshop and there are bits and pieces of Kent and his shop everywhere in mine. Once he had made the decision, everything in Kent's life centered around Paris. He moved to Paris last fall. He stayed long enough attend his daughter's wedding and to complete a massive bibliography on freemasonry, something that had precoccupied him for the past ten years. Entitled Freemasonry, Anti-Masonry and Illuminism in the United States, 1734-1850 A Bibliography by Kent Logan Walgren, it has just been published by the American Antiquarian Society. Kent had emailed me about it just last week, he was very excited to see this long labor of love at last in print. He was eagerly looking forward to seeing a copy. Unfortunately he died before any copies reached him at his Paris apartment. At 1136 pages, two quarto volumes weighing eight pounds, Kent's bibliography will endure and be one of his lasting legacies. It's a monumental project to have completed. There are too many thoughts and memories swirling around in my head right now to even attempt an accurate portrayal of a man whom I was privileged to call a friend. His daughter had flown to Paris and he was to have picked her up at the airport. He never made it. Goodbye Kently I'll miss you, Ken Sanders -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@abaa.org http://mailman.rockingstone.nl/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Irwin" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] FW: Death of Bookseller Kent Walgren in Paris Date: 02 Jun 2003 21:35:54 -0700 This is, indeed, sad news Ken. =20 I first met Kent when Hugh and I decided to reprint Bibliothica Scallawagiana. Kent used the name "Scallawagiana" Books before he = opened his shop, so I decided to call him and see what he could add to my = research on the catalog. He was at first a bit concerned but once he found that = we were serious and planned on creating a quality reprint, he was very encouraging and told me all he knew about Woodward and the catalogue. I = was grateful for his insights. Unbeknownst to me, when we hung up, he went = up to the Marriott library and spent the afternoon researching the origins = of the catalogue and the life of Charles Lowell Woodward. A package of = Xerox copies arrived a few days later. When Arthur H. Clark published the reprint, Kent placed by far the largest order. I was a bit puzzled at = the size and asked him if he was sure he wanted that many. He said he = wanted to make sure he had copies to sell for as long as he was in business. Kent packaged them with his great book list, "The Scallawagiana 100" which Bookshelfer Mark Edlund rightly called the best list around. =20 I bought my copy of The West of William Ashley in leather from Kent. It = was a presentation copy to Peter Decker and came with a very warm letter = from Dale Morgan to Decker. It was from Kent's personal library. He = frequently brought things from his library into his shop. Selling this book was something like selling one of his children. I could tell he was a bit reluctant to let it go. And he did ask me to give him first right of refusal if I ever decided to sell it. I gave him my promise. We talked = for a long time about Dale Morgan's great contributions as a historian and bibliographer. Kent was a great admirer of Morgan. It may sound silly = but I always thought of myself as the caretaker for Kent's book. =20 Each trip to Kent's store was a treasure. Not that I often found a lot = of things to buy, but that I could talk books and come away with new = insights and understanding about my avocation. Above all else I admired Kent's humility and passion for congruence and simplicity in his life. I'm grateful to have known him. Keith Dear LDS Bookshelfers, Many of you knew Kent Walgren, so I thought I would post this here. The details of his death are still unknown, but it appears as if he died in his sleep last Saturday evening at his apartment in Paris. Ken Sanders Dear Colleagues, I have just learned this morning of the death of one of my closest friends, the bookseller Kent Walgren, in Paris over the weekend. I first met Kent in the 1970s when I owned the Cosmic Aeroplane Bookstore here in Salt Lake City. He was a customer interested in books on Mormonism and freemasonry, among other things and we quickly became friends. We had somewhat lost track of one another over the ensuing years. Some six summers ago,unbeknownst to one another, i opened my current bookshop at the same time as Kent opened his. Some of you may have known Kent in his bookselling activities over the years, first as Scallywagania Books and later as Scallywag's Books. He had just attended the Paris book fair a week ago, where he mentioned to me that Lame Duck and or or two other ABAA members were present. Kent worked as a public utilities lawyer for the Attorney general's office and the law was killing his soul. Opening Scallywag Books was his attempt to escape all of that and find joy in his life. He and his wife Hanne sold their larger home in the avenues and moved into a smaller house near capitol hill. Kent sold his car and bought a bicycle. He joined a voluntary simplicity group and started taking French lessons in earnest. He became a vegetarian and redoubled his efforts to complete his lifelong quest to write his masonic = bibliography. Almost every evening at 5:00 I would walk or drive the few blocks up third south that separated our stores, usually stopping on the way at the state wine store for a good bottle of red wine to assist in our philosophical discussions and arguments that were to follow. This went on for the entire 4 1/2 years that Scallywag Books existed. We became very close friends. But the bookstore wasn't enough for Kently as I had begun calling him by then; partially in retaliation for him nicknaming me Kenly. But it had become a term of endearment. Kent liked many aspects of the book trade, but others not so much. He was shocked and alrmed by the rising prices, especially in the Mormon end of the marketplace. he was very uncomfortable with the frenzied buying and the spiraling costs of high end Mormon books and ultimately disgusted with it. But I'm digressing. Kent was in his early fifties and felt that his life was slipping away from him. He wanted to accomplish something with whatever years he had remaining, something beyond what he had previously known. He had a desire for a great adventure, he had a passion for life and living, and whatever he was seeking, he went to Paris to find it. When he first told me the news of his wanting to close the bookshop and move to Paris, I didn't take it well. For entirely personal and selfish reasons, I wanted him to stay in Salt Lake, as an andidote for my despair. I did everything in my power to encourage him to stay, including becoming his best customer. I bought books from him almost daily. But Kent had made his mind up. The store would be sold, he would divorce his wife (whom he adored) and he was moving to Paris. Ultimately I would end up buying Kent's shop from him. First his incredible bibliogaphic reference library, ultimately the stock and the fixtures as well. Scallyway Books has been consumed whole by my bookshop and there are bits and pieces of Kent and his shop everywhere in mine. Once he had made the decision, everything in Kent's life centered around Paris. He moved to Paris last fall. He stayed long enough attend his daughter's wedding and to complete a massive bibliography on freemasonry, something that had precoccupied him for the past ten years. Entitled Freemasonry, Anti-Masonry and Illuminism in the United States, 1734-1850 A Bibliography by Kent Logan Walgren, it has just been published by the American Antiquarian Society. Kent had emailed me about it just last week, he was very excited to see this long labor of love at last in print. He was eagerly looking forward to seeing a copy. Unfortunately he died before any copies reached him at his Paris apartment. At 1136 pages, two quarto volumes weighing eight pounds, Kent's bibliography will endure and be one of his lasting legacies. It's a monumental project to have completed. There are too many thoughts and memories swirling around in my head right now to even attempt an accurate portrayal of a man whom I was privileged to call a friend. His daughter had flown to Paris and he was to have picked her up at the airport. He never made it. Goodbye Kently I'll miss you, Ken Sanders --=20 Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@abaa.org http://mailman.rockingstone.nl/mailman/listinfo/discuss --=20 Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com --=20 Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Death of Bookseller Kent Walgren in Paris Date: 03 Jun 2003 10:51:26 EDT --part1_1a2.15973cb3.2c0e0fee_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/2/2003 11:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, irwinkw@earthlink.net quotes Ken Sanders: > Kent liked many > aspects of the book trade, but others not so much. He was shocked and > alrmed by the rising prices, especially in the Mormon end of the > marketplace. he was very uncomfortable with the frenzied buying and the > spiraling costs of high end Mormon books and ultimately disgusted with > it. But I'm digressing. > > Kent was in his early fifties and felt that his life was slipping away > from him. He wanted to accomplish something with whatever years he had > remaining, something beyond what he had previously known. He had a > desire for a great adventure, he had a passion for life and living, and > whatever he was seeking, he went to Paris to find it. "It shall not last for ever, No more than earth and skies; But he that drinks in season Shall live before he dies." ______________ "Oh, many a month before I learn Will find me starting still And listening, as the days return, For him that never will. "Strange, strange to think his blood is cold And mine flows easy on; And that straight look, that heart of gold, That grace, that manhood gone." - A. E. Housman, "Ho, everyone that thirsteth," and "Whe he's returned I'll tell him - oh," in MORE POEMS. London: Jonathan Cape, ["First Published 1936], pp. 39 and 60. FIRST EDITION. 20 1/2 cm. 71 pp., counting half-title and frontispiece portrait. Original dark bluish-grey cloth; gilt title on front board and spine. Original grey dust jacket printed in black and red. Nearly fine, unopened. $Most assuredly not for sale . . . Extreme pain at this news; best of book and human memories, Kent! You always had time for me, and for my questions, whenever I called. Now you have all the time in the world - I'll try to work harder still. Bye, Rick --part1_1a2.15973cb3.2c0e0fee_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/2/2003 11:56:03 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, irwinkw@earthlink.net quotes Ken Sanders:

Kent liked many
aspects of the book trade, but others not so much.  He was shocked and<= BR> alrmed by the rising prices, especially in the Mormon end of the
marketplace.  he was very uncomfortable with the frenzied buying and th= e
spiraling costs of high end Mormon books and ultimately disgusted with
it.  But I'm digressing.

Kent was in his early fifties and felt that his life was slipping away
from him.  He wanted to accomplish something with whatever years he had=
remaining, something beyond what he had previously known.  He had a
desire for a great adventure, he had a passion for life and living, and
whatever he was seeking, he went to Paris to find it.




"It shall not last for ever,
  No more than earth and skies;
But he that drinks in season
  Shall live before he dies."
______________

"Oh, many a month before I learn
  Will find me starting still
And listening, as the days return,
  For him that never will.

"Strange, strange to think his blood is cold
  And mine flows easy on;
And that straight look, that heart of gold,
  That grace, that manhood gone."

- A. E. Housman, "Ho, everyone that thirsteth," and "Whe he's returned I'll=20= tell him - oh," in MORE POEMS.  London: Jonathan Cape, ["First Publishe= d 1936], pp. 39 and 60.  FIRST EDITION.  20 1/2 cm.  71 pp.,=20= counting half-title and frontispiece portrait.  Original dark bluish-gr= ey cloth;  gilt title on front board and spine.  Original grey dus= t jacket printed in black and red.  Nearly fine, unopened.  $Most=20= assuredly not for sale . . .

Extreme pain at this news;  best of book and human memories, Kent! = ; You always had time for me, and for my questions, whenever I called. = Now you have all the time in the world - I'll try to work harder still.

Bye,

Rick --part1_1a2.15973cb3.2c0e0fee_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] FW: Death of Bookseller Kent Walgren in Paris Date: 04 Jun 2003 08:36:21 -0700 I want to thank you for your comments about Kent. I never was lucky enough to meet Kent, when ever I was in his store he was at his other job. From what was written it seems to me Kent loved and lived life to its fullest. Joe _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Sanders Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Kent Walgren Memorial Service Date: 06 Jun 2003 14:58:01 -0600 KENT LOGAN WALGREN February 17th, 1947---May 31st, 2003 There will be a memorial service for Kent Walgren held on Sunday June 15th at 5:00 here at my bookshop. Everyone is welcome. If you can't attend, we will be collecting and printing out memorial emails to Kent from his many friends. You're encouraged to contribute. We'll print these out and bind them up for his family. Kent is survived by his parents,a son and a daughter (Kirsten and Brett), and his former wife, Hanne Copier. Kent appears to have died in his apartment in Paris sometime late Friday night/Saturday morning, May 31st. Although we don't have the results of his autopsy yet, it is believed he died of natural causes, probably a heart attack or stroke. -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Sanders Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Kent Walgren Funeral Date: 06 Jun 2003 17:23:40 -0600 We have just learned that there will be a funeral for Kent Walgren as well as the memorial service here at the bookshop. The funeral is set for Monday June 9th at 2:00 P.M. The obituary will be in the Salt Lake papers tomorrow. The memorial service will still take place Sunday, June 15th at 5:00 at the bookshop. Addditionally, there will be a tribute/article about Kent in the Salt Lake Tribune tomorrow by his friend John Keahy, and another friend Jerry Johnston at the Deseret News, I believe will be writing about Kent in his weekly column on relgion tomorrow as well. -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Malcolm Vickery" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Kent Walgren Funeral Date: 06 Jun 2003 17:25:40 -0600 Where's the funeral Ken? Malcolm -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sanders Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 5:24 PM We have just learned that there will be a funeral for Kent Walgren as well as the memorial service here at the bookshop. The funeral is set for Monday June 9th at 2:00 P.M. The obituary will be in the Salt Lake papers tomorrow. The memorial service will still take place Sunday, June 15th at 5:00 at the bookshop. Addditionally, there will be a tribute/article about Kent in the Salt Lake Tribune tomorrow by his friend John Keahy, and another friend Jerry Johnston at the Deseret News, I believe will be writing about Kent in his weekly column on relgion tomorrow as well. -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Sanders Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Kent Walgren Funeral Date: 06 Jun 2003 18:24:38 -0600 At a mortuary here in Salt Lake. Monday 2:00 P.M. The name will be in the obit in the Tribune and Des News tomorrow. I don't know it. Malcolm Vickery wrote: > Where's the funeral Ken? > > Malcolm > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sanders > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 5:24 PM > To: lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com; discuss@abaa.org > Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Kent Walgren Funeral > > > We have just learned that there will be a funeral for Kent Walgren as > well as the memorial service here at the bookshop. The funeral is set > for Monday June 9th at 2:00 P.M. The obituary will be in the Salt Lake > papers tomorrow. > > > The memorial service will still take place Sunday, June 15th at 5:00 at > the bookshop. > > Addditionally, there will be a tribute/article about Kent in the Salt > Lake Tribune tomorrow by his friend John Keahy, and another friend Jerry > > Johnston at the Deseret News, I believe will be writing about Kent in > his weekly column on relgion tomorrow as well. > > > > > -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Edlund, Mark J" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:16:14 -0500 Date: 19 Jun 2003 08:14:39 -0600 Bookshelfers, Sad news. I received word last night that Chad Flake passed away yesterday morning. Funeral services will be held in Snowflake, Arizona. There may be a small memorial service at BYU, but I don't know if that has been confirmed yet. Mark Edlund - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Sanders Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Passing of Chad Flake Date: 19 Jun 2003 09:22:44 -0600 Yes, this is sad news, but not unexpected. It seems like we've been losing a lot of great Mormon/western scholars just recently. And like Kent Walgren and his massive masonic bibliography, Chad has died on the eve of the publication of the new Flake Mormon bibliography. Dale Morgan started the Mormon bibliography back in the forties in a recipe box on a table I believe. It took an enormous amount of work by Chad Flake and cohorts to bring that dream to a realization back in 1980. I can remeber quoting items to Chad over the years that I've found that weren't in Flake, it was like waving a red flag in front of the proverbial bull. I always got lectured on why this or that item either shouldn't have been in Flake or was in Flake and I just didn't know where to look, but Chad would always eagerly purchase all those items that "weren't in "Flake" and I suspect they will be in the forthcoming edition. Ken Sanders Edlund, Mark J wrote: > Bookshelfers, > > Sad news. I received word last night that Chad Flake passed away yesterday > morning. Funeral services will be held in Snowflake, Arizona. There may be > a small memorial service at BYU, but I don't know if that has been confirmed > yet. > > Mark Edlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books > - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with > - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. > - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" > > > -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Passing of Chad Flake Date: 21 Jun 2003 23:53:32 EDT --part1_4f.30a8914f.2c26823c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/19/2003 11:21:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, ken@dreamgarden.com writes: > I can remeber quoting items to Chad over the years that I've > found that weren't in Flake, it was like waving a red flag in front of > the proverbial bull. I always got lectured on why this or that item > either shouldn't have been in Flake or was in Flake and I just didn't > know where to look, but Chad would always eagerly purchase all those > items that "weren't in "Flake" and I suspect they will be in the > forthcoming edition. "I was devestated [sic] when the first book was 'Not in Flake'. Now I love to add it to Flake additions, and realize that we will be starting a second when the Additions go to press." -Chad Flake to Rick Grunder, March 14, 1989, in response to my comment in a letter to him on March 4, 1989: "There is no greater tribute to a bibliographer than to have legions of booksellers or scholars exclaim gleefully, 'Not in Flake.' It is a back-door tribute to your comprehensiveness and dedication, and if I should happen to outlive you someday, I will certainly take pride in bragging that I knew you. I hope someone will be able to say the same about me someday! Right now, about all they could say is, "I wish he had paid his bills!" My life changed one day in the early 1970s when Dr. DeLamar Jensen took our history class to the vault where Chad gave us a tour of the rarest treasures at BYU. I would never rest until I could work with such things. Chad bore his "testimony" to me about 1975. I remember it virtually word-for-word: "I believe Joseph Smith was what he was purported to be, that the Book of Mormon was what it was purported to be, and that we have somehow muddled through with the authority to the present day." At least once a week, I would carry an armful of material into his office to see if he wanted certain items for Special Collections as opposed to sending them to open stacks. On one occasion, he sighed, accepted yet another tome to ponder, and replied in his cynical, nasal drawl, "I'll take this one overnight and make it a matter of fasting and prayer." His best quote, I have shared before - that to read a great book in a reprint edition is like kissing your girlfriend through a pane of glass. Hopelessly nervous, he would fidget with his giant clothespin-shaped paper clip on his desk, pinching the skin between his thumb and forefinger, then pulling the clip off, over and over, waiting for a conversation to end so that he could get back to his books. At lunch, waiting for the waitress to bring his meal, he would interlace the tines of his dinner and salad forks, making a sort of rocking horse with which to occupy his hands. Sometimes the forks weren't enough. He once spilled an entire carafe of icewater on Pete Crawley, Dean Larsen and me (or rather on our table - we knew to jump quickly) because he couldn't leave it alone. No one was particularly scandalized, and certainly not embarrassed. It was just a slightly more dramatic manifestation of our friend's eccentricities. The ultimate crucifixion for such a personality was the renovation of the Lee Library in the late 1970s. A cloth was draped over one hole at the back of Special Collections, but the noise from the workers demolishing the walls was impossible. "Can we have some quiet here?" Chad yelled. "We are trying to do complex bibliographic work." One carpenter in dirty overalls looked up, stared at the shelves uncomprehendingly, and strode over. The book on the desk was an Aldine imprint from the 1500s, and Chad and I were trying to work out the sort of problem which would not likely occur to such a fellow. "Are those books old?" the guy asked. I shuddered just a little, anticipating Chad's possible snip. Instead, Chad saw the opportunity for education. He escorted the fellow into the Holy of Holies itself, carefully explaining the nature of the old books and manuscripts, where they were made, and the centuries that had intervened since they were produced. I daresay the man remembers what he saw there to this day, and is better for it, as I was when Chad first showed such things to me. As the sledge hammers prepared to crash through the wall of the old vault, the shelves were emptied methodically. We full-time library "professionals" loaded the entire contents on carts and wheeled them like prelates exhibiting statues of the Blessed Mother in a religious parade, proceeding to Room 451, where inestimable relics would wait behind a simple locked wooden door for weeks until the new vault could be completed. I went back one last time to check every shelf in the old vault. The top shelves were higher than my 6' 2" could see, so I did a sort of jumping routine along every row. At the end of the final one, I spied an old paper, and pulled it down. It was a document signed by George Washington. "So THAT's where I put it," came Chad's familiar, bored drawl. When the new vault was completed, some of us gathered to observe the new fire extinguishing system: The electromagnet holding the vault door open would deactivate, and a jet of Halon gas (breathable, but too low in oxygen to support a flame) would be released into the chamber. We stood just outside and waited. But just before the large door closed, we witnessed a soul-chilling flurry of book parts and paper shreds spewing from one end of the vault to the other. It looked as if the entire Victorian Collection had been pulverized by the ill-directed blast. Like many overly nervous people (including RickBook), Chad reacted no worse to the calamity than he would have to the temporary loss of his keys. "A terrible tragedy," he muttered calmly. He could not open the vault door for ten minutes because of the mechanism on the fire controls. We sat in stunned horror and wondered how many years of work and how many hundreds of thousands of dollars had been lost. When the time was up, we walked in and discovered to our relief that only a half-dozen books had been destroyed. A narrow area, two shelves immediately in front of the gas jet were kept perpetually empty from that day forward. RG --part1_4f.30a8914f.2c26823c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/19/2003 11:21:27 AM Eastern Stand= ard Time, ken@dreamgarden.com writes:

I can remeber quoting items to= Chad over the years that I've
found that weren't in Flake, it was like waving a red flag in front of
the proverbial bull.  I always got lectured on why this or that item either shouldn't have been in Flake or was in Flake and I just didn't
know where to look, but Chad would always eagerly purchase all those
items that "weren't in "Flake"  and I suspect they will be in the
forthcoming edition.



"I was devestated [sic] when the first book was 'Not in Flake'.  Now I=20= love to add it to Flake additions, and realize that we will be starting a se= cond when the Additions go to press."

-Chad Flake to Rick Grunder, March 14, 1989, in response to my comment in a=20= letter to him on March 4, 1989:

"There is no greater tribute to a bibliographer than to have legions of book= sellers or scholars exclaim gleefully, 'Not in Flake.'  It is a back-do= or tribute to your comprehensiveness and dedication, and if I should happen=20= to outlive you someday, I will certainly take pride in bragging that I knew=20= you.  I hope someone will be able to say the same about me someday!&nbs= p; Right now, about all they could say is, "I wish he had paid his bills!"
My life changed one day in the early 1970s when Dr. DeLamar Jensen took our=20= history class to the vault where Chad gave us a tour of the rarest treasures= at BYU.  I would never rest until I could work with such things.

Chad bore his "testimony" to me about 1975.  I remember it virtually wo= rd-for-word:

"I believe Joseph Smith was what he was purported to be, that the Book of Mo= rmon was what it was purported to be, and that we have somehow muddled throu= gh with the authority to the present day."

At least once a week, I would carry an armful of material into his office to= see if he wanted certain items for Special Collections as opposed to sendin= g them to open stacks.  On one occasion, he sighed, accepted yet anothe= r tome to ponder, and replied in his cynical, nasal drawl, "I'll take this o= ne overnight and make it a matter of fasting and prayer."

His best quote, I have shared before - that to read a great book in a reprin= t edition is like kissing your girlfriend through a pane of glass.

Hopelessly nervous, he would fidget with his giant clothespin-shaped paper c= lip on his desk, pinching the skin between his thumb and forefinger, then pu= lling the clip off, over and over, waiting for a conversation to end so that= he could get back to his books.  At lunch, waiting for the waitress to= bring his meal, he would interlace the tines of his dinner and salad forks,= making a sort of rocking horse with which to occupy his hands.  Someti= mes the forks weren't enough.  He once spilled an entire carafe of icew= ater on Pete Crawley, Dean Larsen and me (or rather on our table - we knew t= o jump quickly) because he couldn't leave it alone.  No one was particu= larly scandalized, and certainly not embarrassed.  It was just a slight= ly more dramatic manifestation of our friend's eccentricities.

The ultimate crucifixion for such a personality was the renovation of the Le= e Library in the late 1970s.  A cloth was draped over one hole at the b= ack of Special Collections, but the noise from the workers demolishing the w= alls was impossible.

"Can we have some quiet here?" Chad yelled.  "We are trying to do compl= ex bibliographic work."  One carpenter in dirty overalls looked up, sta= red at the shelves uncomprehendingly, and strode over.  The book on the= desk was an Aldine imprint from the 1500s, and Chad and I were trying to wo= rk out the sort of problem which would not likely occur to such a fellow.
"Are those books old?" the guy asked.  I shuddered just a little, antic= ipating Chad's possible snip.  Instead, Chad saw the opportunity for ed= ucation.  He escorted the fellow into the Holy of Holies itself, carefu= lly explaining the nature of the old books and manuscripts, where they were=20= made, and the centuries that had intervened since they were produced. =20= I daresay the man remembers what he saw there to this day, and is better for= it, as I was when Chad first showed such things to me.

As the sledge hammers prepared to crash through the wall of the old vault, t= he shelves were emptied methodically.  We full-time library "profession= als" loaded the entire contents on carts and wheeled them like prelates exhi= biting statues of the Blessed Mother in a religious parade, proceeding to Ro= om 451, where inestimable relics would wait behind a simple locked wooden do= or for weeks until the new vault could be completed.  I went back one l= ast time to check every shelf in the old vault.  The top shelves were h= igher than my 6' 2" could see, so I did a sort of jumping routine along ever= y row.  At the end of the final one, I spied an old paper, and pulled i= t down.

It was a document signed by George Washington.  "So THAT's where I put=20= it," came Chad's familiar, bored drawl.

When the new vault was completed, some of us gathered to observe the new fir= e extinguishing system:  The electromagnet holding the vault door open=20= would deactivate, and a jet of Halon gas (breathable, but too low in oxygen=20= to support a flame) would be released into the chamber.  We stood just=20= outside and waited.  But just before the large door closed, we witnesse= d a soul-chilling flurry of book parts and paper shreds spewing from one end= of the vault to the other.  It looked as if the entire Victorian Colle= ction had been pulverized by the ill-directed blast.  Like many overly=20= nervous people (including RickBook), Chad reacted no worse to the calamity t= han he would have to the temporary loss of his keys.

"A terrible tragedy," he muttered calmly.  He could not open the vault=20= door for ten minutes because of the mechanism on the fire controls.  We= sat in stunned horror and wondered how many years of work and how many hund= reds of thousands of dollars had been lost.

When the time was up, we walked in and discovered to our relief that only a=20= half-dozen books had been destroyed.  A narrow area, two shelves immedi= ately in front of the gas jet were kept perpetually empty from that day forw= ard.

RG --part1_4f.30a8914f.2c26823c_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Edlund, Mark J" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven Date: 22 Jun 2003 09:35:50 -0500 This weekend I had the chance to read "Under the Banner of Heaven", Jon Krakaeur's new book on the Mormons. The back of the ARC copy that I had describes it pretty well: "Krakauer examines the underbelly of the United States most successful homegrown faith". The string tying the whole thing together is the Lafferty brothers, but along the way Krakauer spends time on the founding of the church, the MMM, and the 20th century plural marriage groups. When I first met Jon at the CA Sunstone a few years the topic of his book was different. As Krakaeur writes in the "Author's Notes": "As originally conceived, it (the book) was going to focus on the uneasy, highly charged relationship between the LDS church and its past....I intended to explore the inner trials of spiritual thinkers who 'walk in the shadow of faith' ". He then goes on to explain why he switched focus. A few initial impressions I had: (1) Because the book has a whole host of characters and jumps around some, readers not familiar with Mormons might have a tough time following it. It is kind of like a Russian novel with a multitude of characters, but it moves at a much faster pace. (2) The book fails to capture just what it is that many people find so appealing about Mormonism and Mormon fundamentalism. In fact, it really does not spend much time dealing with this issue. One is left with the belief that all who enter fundamentalism are duped or coerced. IMO, the book would have been strengthened if the book would have dealt with the tension of faith these folks must experience, and the positive experiences they have. (3) That said, Krakauer presents a fairly damning, and convincing, case re fundamentalism: extreme patriarchy, sexual abuse, incest, welfare fraud, coercion. Those who wish to prosecute polygamy more vigorously will find ample ammunition in this book. (4) Mormons, and especially Mormon fundamentalists, will really dislike this book. Because of the stature of the author and the publisher (Doubleday), the book will be widely read among non-Mormons. I would love to have a discussion of the book when it comes out in July. Mark Edlund - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Passing of Chad Flake Date: 22 Jun 2003 09:12:32 -0700 Thanks to all of you for sharing your comments about Chad Flake. I was lucky enough to meet him . He was every bit the gentleman Rick describes. My only regret is that I was not more knowledgeable at the time of our meeting. The Mormon book world will never be the same. Joe _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hjmckell@xmission.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Sally Denton Date: 23 Jun 2003 09:55:55 -0600 The Sunday SL Trib has a big article on Sally Denton's MMM book. The reviewer calls it "serious scholarship". I guess I am going to have to read it...... http://www.sltrib.com/2003/jun/06222003/arts/68274.asp Hugh - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] E.B. Grandin's print shop Date: 23 Jun 2003 17:42:53 -0700 I was able to visit Palmyra for the first time this past week. It was a great trip and quite an experience for me to see the places I have only read about. The printing shop is excellent. I can't get over how well done the exhibit is, the "Palmyra Reflector" and the works of art by C.C.A. Christensen. It is overwhelming. The missionary tour guide was quite well informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was presenting. The presentation in the printing room is very educational and complicated. I had no idea that it takes a real artist to produce a book. One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather of the BofM took two years. As I thought this through is was like a light going off in my head. This means that most of the books were not finished until the saints had left for Ohio. It also makes sense that this is why Martin kept going back to Palmyra after the move(along with selling property). I am hoping Hugh and Rick, along with others, might comment more on this. I found this web site on google. It is the best I have read and I wish I had read it before I had gone to Palmyra. Thanks Rick for your knowledge. http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/ I should also have reread Crawley's description in "Mormons First Book" and his 'Descriptive Bibliography". We also need to know more about Wilford Wood and his aquiring the signatures from John Gilbert and Gilberts writings. Inquiring minds want to know! Joe _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Sanders Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven Date: 23 Jun 2003 19:56:03 -0600 I pretty much agree with Mark Edlund. Although not an indictment of the current Mormon Church, in fact ther M-word isn't even used on the cover, which I found curious, Krakaeur's interest in and retelling of the Lafferty Brothers crime is the strongest part of the book. It's an indictment of polygamy and the fanaticism that this practice has caused. In addition to the Laffertys, it draws heavily on the Short Creek experience (Colorado City/Hilldale) but these seem to be the only two stories he does well. The LeBarons, Tom Green, etc get only a passing mention and I don't recall the Kingstons, John Singer, or many other groups that have either resorted to violence or extreme wackiness to even rate a mention. And there is absolutely nothing mentioned about many other fundamentalist ie polygamists Mormon groups, that don't engage in such extreme behavior, like the late Ogden Kraut, the Fred Collier Group, etc. Krakaeur's book is an interesting read, and I certainly learned things about about the Laffertys and the "Short Creek" group that I didn't know, but the book jumps all over the place, does an inadequate job of schism groups and polygamy in the nineteenth century,(James Strang barely rates a mention for example) not to mention the overall history of the LDS Church. Given that Krakaeur's previous two books (Into The Wild and Into Thin Air) were enormous bestsellers, and given the clout of his publishers (Random/Doubleday) this book will be big and will get a lot of attention. Krakaeur relies heavily on Fawn Brodie, Junaita Brooks, Michael Quinn, and in his Mountain Meadows section, Will Bagley. If Bagley's Blood of the Prophets had been published by a major publishing house, it would have had this kind of impact. As far as I'm concerned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and pedophilia, quite another. Ken Sanders Edlund, Mark J wrote: > This weekend I had the chance to read "Under the Banner of Heaven", Jon > Krakaeur's new book on the Mormons. > > The back of the ARC copy that I had describes it pretty well: "Krakauer > examines the underbelly of the United States most successful homegrown > faith". The string tying the whole thing together is the Lafferty brothers, > but along the way Krakauer spends time on the founding of the church, the > MMM, and the 20th century plural marriage groups. > > When I first met Jon at the CA Sunstone a few years the topic of his book > was different. As Krakaeur writes in the "Author's Notes": "As originally > conceived, it (the book) was going to focus on the uneasy, highly charged > relationship between the LDS church and its past....I intended to explore > the inner trials of spiritual thinkers who 'walk in the shadow of faith' ". > He then goes on to explain why he switched focus. > > A few initial impressions I had: > > (1) Because the book has a whole host of characters and jumps around some, > readers not familiar with Mormons might have a tough time following it. It > is kind of like a Russian novel with a multitude of characters, but it moves > at a much faster pace. > > (2) The book fails to capture just what it is that many people find so > appealing about Mormonism and Mormon fundamentalism. In fact, it really > does not spend much time dealing with this issue. > One is left with the belief that all who enter fundamentalism are duped or > coerced. IMO, the book would have been strengthened if the book would have > dealt with the tension of faith these folks must experience, and the > positive experiences they have. > > (3) That said, Krakauer presents a fairly damning, and convincing, case re > fundamentalism: extreme patriarchy, sexual abuse, incest, welfare fraud, > coercion. Those who wish to prosecute polygamy more vigorously will find > ample ammunition in this book. > > (4) Mormons, and especially Mormon fundamentalists, will really dislike > this book. > > Because of the stature of the author and the publisher (Doubleday), the book > will be widely read among non-Mormons. I would love to have a discussion of > the book when it comes out in July. > > Mark Edlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books > - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with > - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. > - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" > > > -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Malcolm Vickery" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven Date: 23 Jun 2003 21:11:40 -0600 >>>As far as I'm concerned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and pedophilia, quite another. >>>Ken Sanders Hear, hear!! Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction. Malcolm - Distinctive Books - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lark and Mick Reasor" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] E.B. Grandin's print shop Date: 23 Jun 2003 22:53:59 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:42 PM . I found > this web site on google. It is the best I have read and I wish I had read it > before I had gone to Palmyra. Thanks Rick for your knowledge. > > http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/ I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about this paragraph: "It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in April of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of."[6] I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scripture (inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon scripture, I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the reference in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of witnesses. (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.) So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to understanding mysterious Book of Mormon passages? 6. Pp.110 and 548; 2 Nephi 27:12 and Ether 5:2-4 in modern editions (i.e., editions published by the LDS [Utah] Church as divided into verses and shorter chapters by Orson Pratt beginning with the Liverpool, 1879, edition). Mick - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roy Schmidt" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Soft market Date: 24 Jun 2003 11:30:41 -0600 It seems to me that the market for LDS books continues to be pretty soft. Not only are prices down, but fewer people seem to be buying. For instance, Deseret Book Auction currently has 726 LDS books listed. Of these, only 26 have at least one bid. Is this peculiar to the season? I know things have been overpriced in the recent past. Is the market settling down into reality? Is my observation true just for Deseret Book Auction? What about retail used book stores? How about ebay? Any thoughts? Roy Schmidt - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift Date: 24 Jun 2003 15:28:28 EDT --part1_152.20b99061.2c2a005c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, marklick@callta.com writes: >http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/ >I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about this paragraph: >"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in April of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of."[6] >I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scripture (inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon scripture, I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the reference in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of witnesses. (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.) So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to understanding mysterious Book of Mormon passages? A worthwhile question, Mick! I hate it when people make me think before noon. The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to Octavo Corporation. My original text had the following footnote for the passage in question: Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price. Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER TRANSLATION"; JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . , Robert J. Matthews applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the upcoming revision of the Bible. Matthews writes: "May 15, 1829; near Harmony, Pennsylvania. While translating the Book of Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious parts' had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi 13, 14; Mormon 8:33). It follows that a gospel dispensation based upon the restoration of ancient things would include a restoration of at least some of these missing passages of scripture. . . . . . "The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true meaning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the ability to recognize faulty texts and correct them." (Provo, Utah: BYU Press, c. 1975, p. 24) In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage in Joseph's History makes sense. Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting this History (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had spread an uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . . darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people." This feels comfortable to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith as an all-purpose prophet. However, the chronology of events which Joseph Smith volunteers here convinces me that his passage about scripture enlightenment was intended specifically to describe his Book of Mormon dictation, not the revision of the Bible: May 15, 1829: The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3), "Immediately . . . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ." 1:73. May 15 to late May, 1829: The window of time available for the next verse, the one in question: "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc. 1:74. Verses 74-5 make it clear that the setting for this scripture enlightenment is Harmony, Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is beginning, and the Hale Family protects them: "74 . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the [Harmony, PA] neighborhood. "75 We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . . And their intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife's father's family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption; and therefore offered and promised us protection . . ." Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision. Two months earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . . . ". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift." (Book of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." D&C 5:4.) Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until the Book of Mormon translation is completed. He dictates the Book of Mormon "without interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by the Isaac Hale Family, who live across the road and some four hundred feet to the west. Joseph and Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a clarification of the errors of men, filling in doctrinal scripture gaps created when the wicked Catholic Church removed plain and precious passages from the Bible. End of May, first days of June, 1829: Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony (where they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under discussion here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to continue the translation work in peace. June, 1830: The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms: "The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation concerning Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by Joseph Smith in June 1830. The Prophet did not say what connection this revelation has with the actual translation of the Bible or whether it was received while he was engaged in the translation. However, the fact that it was included in each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of the New Translation suggests that there is a close historical association." (Matthews, p.27) July, 1830: According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the Bible was probably in its early stages." Rick Grunder --part1_152.20b99061.2c2a005c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, marklick@callta.com writes:

>http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/

>I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about thi= s
paragraph:

>"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in Apr= il
of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to<= BR> paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning=
and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a
manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had
thought of."[6]

>I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scriptu= re
(inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon<= BR> scripture,   I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the r= eference
in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was
ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of
witnesses.  (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't  possibly= be
responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.)<= BR> So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to
understanding  mysterious Book of Mormon passages?



A worthwhile question, Mick!  I hate it when people make me think befor= e noon.

The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to=20= Octavo Corporation.  My original text had the following footnote for th= e passage in question:

  Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price.


Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER TRANSLATION= ";  JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . ,  Robert J. Mat= thews applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the upcoming revis= ion of the Bible.  Matthews writes:

"May 15, 1829;  near Harmony, Pennsylvania.  While translating the= Book of Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious p= arts' had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi=20= 13, 14;  Mormon 8:33).  It follows that a gospel dispensation base= d upon the restoration of ancient things would include a restoration of at l= east some of these missing passages of scripture.
. . . . .

"The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true me= aning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the abili= ty to recognize faulty texts and correct them."  (Provo, Utah:  BY= U Press, c. 1975, p. 24)



In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage in Jo= seph's History makes sense.  Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting thi= s History (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had spread= an uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . .  d= arkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people." = This feels comfortable to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith as an all-pu= rpose prophet.  However, the chronology of events which Joseph Smith vo= lunteers here convinces me that his passage about scripture enlightenment wa= s intended specifically to describe his Book of Mormon dictation, not the re= vision of the Bible:


May 15, 1829:  The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic Priest= hood and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3),  "Immed= iately . . . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ."  1:= 73.



May 15 to late May, 1829:  The window of time available for the next ve= rse, the one in question:  "Our minds being now enlightened, we began t= o have the scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc.  1:74.=   Verses 74-5 make it clear that the setting for this scripture enlight= enment is Harmony, Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is beginning, and the H= ale Family protects them:

"74  . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstan= ces of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning t= o a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the [Harmon= y, PA] neighborhood.
"75  We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . .  And their in= tentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife's=20= father's family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing that I sho= uld be allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption;&nbs= p; and therefore offered and promised us protection . . ."

Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision.  Two month= s earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . . .

". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he= shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift." =20= (Book of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I have commande= d that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in=20= this;  for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." D= &C 5:4.)

Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until the Book= of Mormon translation is completed.  He dictates the Book of Mormon "w= ithout interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by the Isaac Hale=20= Family, who live across the road and some four hundred feet to the west.&nbs= p; Joseph and Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a clarification of the=20= errors of men, filling in doctrinal scripture gaps created when the wicked C= atholic Church removed plain and precious passages from the Bible.




End of May, first days of June, 1829:  Joseph & Oliver leave Harmon= y (where they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under dis= cussion here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to continue= the translation work in peace.



June, 1830:  The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of=20= pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms:

"The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation concern= ing Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by Joseph Smith in=20= June 1830.  The Prophet did not say what connection this revelation has= with the actual translation of the Bible or whether it was received while h= e was engaged in the translation.  However, the fact that it was includ= ed in each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of the New Translation sug= gests that there is a close historical association."  (Matthews, p.27)<= BR>


July, 1830:  According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the Bibl= e was probably in its early stages."


Rick Grunder
 --part1_152.20b99061.2c2a005c_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven Date: 24 Jun 2003 15:32:49 EDT --part1_192.1c5fe666.2c2a0161_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, malcolm@distinctivebooks.com writes: > >>>As far as I'm concerned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and > pedophilia, quite another. > > >>>Ken Sanders > > Hear, hear!! > > Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction. > > Malcolm - Distinctive Books > I had a spectaular Honors English teacher at Boise State College when I began college in 1966. He taught us never to associate things which are not necessarily associated, such as "clean and decent." He asked us how silly it would be if one were to say: "He was tall, dark, and Presbyterian." RG --part1_192.1c5fe666.2c2a0161_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:12:04 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, malcolm@distinctivebooks.com writes:

>>>As far as I'm conce= rned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and
pedophilia, quite another.

>>>Ken Sanders

Hear, hear!!

Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction.

Malcolm - Distinctive Books




I had a spectaular Honors English teacher at Boise State College when I bega= n college in 1966.  He taught us never to associate things which are no= t necessarily associated, such as "clean and decent."  He asked us how=20= silly it would be if one were to say:

"He was tall, dark, and Presbyterian."

RG --part1_192.1c5fe666.2c2a0161_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] E.B. Grandin's print shop Date: 24 Jun 2003 15:35:16 EDT --part1_ab.2eab965d.2c2a01f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes: > The missionary tour guide was quite well > informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was presenting. > The presentation in the printing room is very educational and complicated. I > > had no idea that it takes a real artist to produce a book. > > One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather of the BofM > > took two years. As I thought this through is was like a light going off in > my head. This means that most of the books were not finished until the > saints had left for Ohio. It also makes sense that this is why Martin kept > going back to Palmyra after the move(along with selling property). I am > hoping Hugh and Rick, along with others, might comment more on this. Whew! I'm too tired to tackle this one today, after working on Mick's question. Anyone know about this? First time I've heard of it, or remember hearing of it, anyway. Rick --part1_ab.2eab965d.2c2a01f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes:

The missionary tour guide was q= uite well
informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was presenting. The presentation in the printing room is very educational and complicated. I=
had no idea that it takes a real artist to produce a book.

One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather of the BofM=
took two years. As I thought this through is was like a light going off in <= BR> my head. This means that most of the books were not finished until the
saints had left for Ohio. It also makes sense that this is why Martin kept <= BR> going back to Palmyra after the move(along with selling property). I am
hoping Hugh and Rick, along with others, might comment more on this.


Whew!  I'm too tired to tackle this one today, after working on Mick's=20= question.  Anyone know about this?  First time I've heard of it, o= r remember hearing of it, anyway.

Rick --part1_ab.2eab965d.2c2a01f4_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift Date: 24 Jun 2003 15:46:02 EDT --part1_102.309e3351.2c2a047a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 marklick@callta.com writes: >http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/ >I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about this paragraph: >"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in April of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of."[6] >I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scripture (inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon scripture,=A0=A0 I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the referen= ce in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of witnesses.=A0 (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't=A0 possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.) So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to understanding=A0 mysterious Book of Mormon passages? A worthwhile question, Mick!=A0 I hate it when people make me think before=20 noon. The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to=20 Octavo Corporation.=A0 My original text had the following footnote for the=20 passage in question: =A0 Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price. Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER=20 TRANSLATION";=A0 JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . ,=A0 Robert J= . Matthews applied=20 this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the upcoming revision of the=20 Bible.=A0 Matthews writes: "May 15, 1829;=A0 near Harmony, Pennsylvania.=A0 While translating the Book=20= of=20 Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious parts' had= =20 been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi 13, 14;= =A0 Mormon=20 8:33).=A0 It follows that a gospel dispensation based upon the restoration o= f=20 ancient things would include a restoration of at least some of these missing= =20 passages of scripture. . . . . . "The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true=20 meaning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the abi= lity=20 to recognize faulty texts and correct them."=A0 (Provo, Utah:=A0 BYU Press,=20= c.=20 1975, p. 24) In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage in=20 Joseph's History makes sense.=A0 Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting this= =20 History (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had spread a= n=20 uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . .=A0 darkness= covered=20 the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people."=A0 This feels comfort= able=20 to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith as an all-purpose prophet.=A0 Howeve= r,=20 the chronology of events which Joseph Smith volunteers here convinces me tha= t=20 his passage about scripture enlightenment was intended specifically to descr= ibe=20 his Book of Mormon dictation, not the revision of the Bible: May 15, 1829:=A0 The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthoo= d=20 and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3),=A0 "Immediately .= . .=20 We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ."=A0 1:73. May 15 to late May, 1829:=A0 The window of time available for the next verse= ,=20 the one in question:=A0 "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have t= he=20 scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc.=A0 1:74.=A0 Verses 74-= 5 make=20 it clear that the setting for this scripture enlightenment is Harmony,=20 Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is beginning, and the Hale Family protects= them: "74=A0 . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances= of=20 having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning to a=20 spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the [Harmony, P= A]=20 neighborhood. "75=A0 We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . .=A0 And their intentio= ns of=20 mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife's father's=20 family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing that I should be al= lowed=20 to continue the work of translation without interruption;=A0 and therefore=20 offered and promised us protection . . ." Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision.=A0 Two months=20 earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . . . ". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he= =20 shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift."=A0 (Boo= k of=20 Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I have commanded that yo= u=20 should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this;=A0 fo= r I=20 will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." D&C 5:4.) Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until the Book= =20 of Mormon translation is completed.=A0 He dictates the Book of Mormon "witho= ut=20 interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by the Isaac Hale Family,= =20 who live across the road and some four hundred feet to the west.=A0 Joseph a= nd=20 Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a clarification of the errors of men,= =20 filling in doctrinal scripture gaps created when the wicked Catholic Church=20 removed plain and precious passages from the Bible. End of May, first days of June, 1829:=A0 Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony (wher= e=20 they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under discussion=20 here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to continue the=20 translation work in peace. June, 1830:=A0 The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of=20 pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms: "The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation=20 concerning Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by Joseph Sm= ith in=20 June 1830.=A0 The Prophet did not say what connection this revelation has wi= th the=20 actual translation of the Bible or whether it was received while he was=20 engaged in the translation.=A0 However, the fact that it was included in eac= h of the=20 three Old Testament manuscripts of the New Translation suggests that there i= s a=20 close historical association."=A0 (Matthews, p.27) July, 1830:=A0 According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the Bible w= as=20 probably in its early stages." Rick Grunder --part1_102.309e3351.2c2a047a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, marklick@callta.com writes:

>http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/

>I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about thi= s
paragraph:

>"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in Apr= il
of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to<= BR> paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning=
and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a
manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had
thought of."[6]

>I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scriptu= re
(inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon<= BR> scripture,=A0=A0 I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the referen= ce
in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was
ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of
witnesses.=A0 (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't=A0 possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.)<= BR> So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to
understanding=A0 mysterious Book of Mormon passages?



A worthwhile question, Mick!=A0 I hate it when people make me think before n= oon.

The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to=20= Octavo Corporation.=A0 My original text had the following footnote for the p= assage in question:

=A0 Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price.


Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER TRANSLATION= ";=A0 JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . ,=A0 Robert J. Matthews=20= applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the upcoming revision of= the Bible.=A0 Matthews writes:

"May 15, 1829;=A0 near Harmony, Pennsylvania.=A0 While translating the Book=20= of Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious parts'=20= had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi 13, 14= ;=A0 Mormon 8:33).=A0 It follows that a gospel dispensation based upon the r= estoration of ancient things would include a restoration of at least some of= these missing passages of scripture.
. . . . .

"The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true me= aning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the abili= ty to recognize faulty texts and correct them."=A0 (Provo, Utah:=A0 BYU Pres= s, c. 1975, p. 24)



In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage in Jo= seph's History makes sense.=A0 Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting this H= istory (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had spread an= uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . .=A0 darknes= s covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people."=A0 This fee= ls comfortable to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith as an all-purpose pro= phet.=A0 However, the chronology of events which Joseph Smith volunteers her= e convinces me that his passage about scripture enlightenment was intended s= pecifically to describe his Book of Mormon dictation, not the revision of th= e Bible:


May 15, 1829:=A0 The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthoo= d and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3),=A0 "Immediately= . . . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ."=A0 1:73.



May 15 to late May, 1829:=A0 The window of time available for the next verse= , the one in question:=A0 "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have= the scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc.=A0 1:74.=A0 Verse= s 74-5 make it clear that the setting for this scripture enlightenment is Ha= rmony, Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is beginning, and the Hale Family p= rotects them:

"74=A0 . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances= of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning to a= spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the [Harmony,=20= PA] neighborhood.
"75=A0 We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . .=A0 And their intentio= ns of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife's father= 's family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing that I should be= allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption;=A0 and th= erefore offered and promised us protection . . ."

Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision.=A0 Two months e= arlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . . .

". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he= shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift."=A0 (Bo= ok of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I have commanded t= hat you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in thi= s;=A0 for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." D&C= 5:4.)

Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until the Book= of Mormon translation is completed.=A0 He dictates the Book of Mormon "with= out interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by the Isaac Hale Fam= ily, who live across the road and some four hundred feet to the west.=A0 Jos= eph and Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a clarification of the errors= of men, filling in doctrinal scripture gaps created when the wicked Catholi= c Church removed plain and precious passages from the Bible.




End of May, first days of June, 1829:=A0 Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony (= where they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under discus= sion here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to continue th= e translation work in peace.



June, 1830:=A0 The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of pre= -retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms:

"The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation concern= ing Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by Joseph Smith in=20= June 1830.=A0 The Prophet did not say what connection this revelation has wi= th the actual translation of the Bible or whether it was received while he w= as engaged in the translation.=A0 However, the fact that it was included in=20= each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of the New Translation suggests=20= that there is a close historical association."=A0 (Matthews, p.27)



July, 1830:=A0 According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the Bible w= as probably in its early stages."


Rick Grunder

 --part1_102.309e3351.2c2a047a_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Sanders Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven Date: 24 Jun 2003 14:10:41 -0600 I don't think it's a distinction Krakaeur makes in his book. Many of the most violent offshoots of Mormonism of both the 19th and 20th Century are either not mentioned at all, or in passing, and I can't think of a single example of a non-violent Mormon fundamentalist group, such as the Ogden Kraut or Rulon Allred groups, to cite just two examples. It's hard to believe that the author was even aware of Dale Morgan's excellent bibliographies: A Bibilography of the Church of Jesus Christ, A Bibliography of the Churches of the Dispersion and A Bibliography of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite) all published in the 1940's. And there's the DUP booklet entitled Denominations that Base Their Beliefs on the teachings of Joseph Smith. Ken Sanders RickBook@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, > malcolm@distinctivebooks.com writes: > > >>>As far as I'm concerned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and > pedophilia, quite another. > > >>>Ken Sanders > > Hear, hear!! > > Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction. > > Malcolm - Distinctive Books > > > > > > I had a spectaular Honors English teacher at Boise State College when I > began college in 1966. He taught us never to associate things which are > not necessarily associated, such as "clean and decent." He asked us how > silly it would be if one were to say: > > "He was tall, dark, and Presbyterian." > > RG -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roy Schmidt" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven Date: 24 Jun 2003 14:50:27 -0600 Ken, I really enjoyed the article about you in Sunday's Trib. I hadn't thought about your resemblance to ol' Port, but I can see it now. Keep up the good work. Roy Schmidt -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sanders Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 2:11 PM I don't think it's a distinction Krakaeur makes in his book. Many of=20 the most violent offshoots of Mormonism of both the 19th and 20th=20 Century are either not mentioned at all, or in passing, and I can't=20 think of a single example of a non-violent Mormon fundamentalist group,=20 such as the Ogden Kraut or Rulon Allred groups, to cite just two=20 examples. It's hard to believe that the author was even aware of Dale Morgan's excellent bibliographies: A Bibilography of the Church of Jesus Christ, A Bibliography of the Churches of the Dispersion and A=20 Bibliography of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints=20 (Strangite) all published in the 1940's. And there's the DUP booklet=20 entitled Denominations that Base Their Beliefs on the teachings of=20 Joseph Smith. Ken Sanders RickBook@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 > malcolm@distinctivebooks.com writes: >=20 > >>>As far as I'm concerned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and > pedophilia, quite another. >=20 > >>>Ken Sanders >=20 > Hear, hear!! >=20 > Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction. >=20 > Malcolm - Distinctive Books >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > I had a spectaular Honors English teacher at Boise State College when I=20 > began college in 1966. He taught us never to associate things which are=20 > not necessarily associated, such as "clean and decent." He asked us how=20 > silly it would be if one were to say: >=20 > "He was tall, dark, and Presbyterian." >=20 > RG --=20 Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lark and Mick Reasor" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift Date: 24 Jun 2003 18:44:26 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33A80.A2ED6E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Now I have to do some thinking--and = sporadic study (thank goodness it's after noon). =20 Mick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickBook@aol.com=20 To: lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, = marklick@callta.com writes: >http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/ >I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about = this paragraph: >"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in = April of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was = put to paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we = began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true = meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of."[6] >I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical = scripture (inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of = Mormon scripture, I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the = reference in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and = was ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility = of witnesses. (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his = behalf.) So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to understanding mysterious Book of Mormon passages? A worthwhile question, Mick! I hate it when people make me think = before noon. The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I = sent to Octavo Corporation. My original text had the following footnote = for the passage in question: Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price. Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER = TRANSLATION"; JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . , Robert = J. Matthews applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the = upcoming revision of the Bible. Matthews writes: "May 15, 1829; near Harmony, Pennsylvania. While translating the = Book of Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and = precious parts' had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was = compiled (1 Nephi 13, 14; Mormon 8:33). It follows that a gospel = dispensation based upon the restoration of ancient things would include = a restoration of at least some of these missing passages of scripture. . . . . . "The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the = 'true meaning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably = include the ability to recognize faulty texts and correct them." = (Provo, Utah: BYU Press, c. 1975, p. 24) In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage = in Joseph's History makes sense. Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting = this History (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had = spread an uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . = . darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the = people." This feels comfortable to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith = as an all-purpose prophet. However, the chronology of events which = Joseph Smith volunteers here convinces me that his passage about = scripture enlightenment was intended specifically to describe his Book = of Mormon dictation, not the revision of the Bible: May 15, 1829: The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic = Priesthood and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3), = "Immediately . . . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . = ." 1:73. May 15 to late May, 1829: The window of time available for the next = verse, the one in question: "Our minds being now enlightened, we began = to have the scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc. 1:74. = Verses 74-5 make it clear that the setting for this scripture = enlightenment is Harmony, Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is = beginning, and the Hale Family protects them: "74 . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the = circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been = baptized, owning to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested = itself in the [Harmony, PA] neighborhood. "75 We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . . And their = intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my = wife's father's family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing = that I should be allowed to continue the work of translation without = interruption; and therefore offered and promised us protection . . ." Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision. Two = months earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . = . . ". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him = that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other = gift." (Book of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I = have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose = is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it = is finished." D&C 5:4.) Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until = the Book of Mormon translation is completed. He dictates the Book of = Mormon "without interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by = the Isaac Hale Family, who live across the road and some four hundred = feet to the west. Joseph and Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a = clarification of the errors of men, filling in doctrinal scripture gaps = created when the wicked Catholic Church removed plain and precious = passages from the Bible. End of May, first days of June, 1829: Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony = (where they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under = discussion here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to = continue the translation work in peace. June, 1830: The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of = pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms: "The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation = concerning Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by = Joseph Smith in June 1830. The Prophet did not say what connection this = revelation has with the actual translation of the Bible or whether it = was received while he was engaged in the translation. However, the fact = that it was included in each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of = the New Translation suggests that there is a close historical = association." (Matthews, p.27) July, 1830: According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the = Bible was probably in its early stages." Rick Grunder ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33A80.A2ED6E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  = Now I have=20 to do some thinking--and sporadic study (thank goodness it's after = noon). =20
Mick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickBook@aol.com=20
To: lds-bookshelf@lists.xmis= sion.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 = 2:46=20 PM
Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No = Other=20 Gift

In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern = Standard=20 Time, marklick@callta.com=20 = writes:

>http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/abou= t/

>I=20 too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about=20 this
paragraph:

>"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a = young=20 schoolteacher, appeared in April
of the following year that the = text of the=20 actual Book of Mormon was put to
paper. "Our minds being now = enlightened,"=20 Smith later recounted, "we began
to have the Scriptures laid open = to our=20 understandings, and the true meaning
and intention of their more = mysterious=20 passages revealed unto us, in a
manner which we never could attain = to=20 previously, nor ever before had
thought of."[6]

>I was = always=20 under the impression that this referred to biblical = scripture
(inspired=20 translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of=20 Mormon
scripture,   I even clicked on the footnote = expecting to=20 see the reference
in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something = completely=20 different and was
ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred = to the=20 possiblility of
witnesses.  (Knowing "detail oriented" = Rickbook=20 couldn't  possibly be
responsible for the error I cursed his=20 electronic publisher on his behalf.)
So what do you think? What = evidence is=20 there that this quote refers to
understanding  mysterious Book = of=20 Mormon passages?



A worthwhile question, Mick!  I = hate it=20 when people make me think before noon.

The footnote reference = mistake=20 was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to Octavo Corporation.  = My=20 original text had the following footnote for the passage in=20 question:

  Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of = Great=20 Price.


Eager to present the broadest possible background = for "A=20 PLAINER TRANSLATION";  JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . = . .=20 ,  Robert J. Matthews applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History = 1:74) to=20 the upcoming revision of the Bible.  Matthews writes:

"May = 15,=20 1829;  near Harmony, Pennsylvania.  While translating the = Book of=20 Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious = parts' had=20 been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi 13,=20 14;  Mormon 8:33).  It follows that a gospel dispensation = based upon=20 the restoration of ancient things would include a restoration of at = least some=20 of these missing passages of scripture.
. . . . .

"The = spiritual=20 insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true meaning and = intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the ability = to=20 recognize faulty texts and correct them."  (Provo, Utah:  = BYU Press,=20 c. 1975, p. 24)



In the broad spirit of things, this = general=20 application of the passage in Joseph's History makes sense.  = Oliver=20 Cowdery's commentary footnoting this History (in the Pearl of Great = Price)=20 reflects "that corruption had spread an uncertainty over all forms and = systems=20 practiced among men . . .  darkness covered the earth and gross = darkness=20 the minds of the people."  This feels comfortable to a modern = Mormon view=20 of Joseph Smith as an all-purpose prophet.  However, the = chronology of=20 events which Joseph Smith volunteers here convinces me that his = passage about=20 scripture enlightenment was intended specifically to describe his Book = of=20 Mormon dictation, not the revision of the Bible:


May 15,=20 1829:  The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic = Priesthood and=20 the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3),  = "Immediately . .=20 . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ." =20 1:73.



May 15 to late May, 1829:  The window of = time=20 available for the next verse, the one in question:  "Our minds = being now=20 enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our = understanding .=20 . ." etc.  1:74.  Verses 74-5 make it clear that the setting = for=20 this scripture enlightenment is Harmony, Pennsylvania, where = "persecution" is=20 beginning, and the Hale Family protects them:

"74  . . . = In the=20 meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having = received=20 the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning to a spirit of = persecution=20 which had already manifested itself in the [Harmony, PA]=20 neighborhood.
"75  We had been threatened with being mobbed, . = .=20 .  And their intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by = the=20 influence of my wife's father's family (under Divine providence), who = . . .=20 were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of = translation=20 without interruption;  and therefore offered and promised us = protection .=20 . ."

Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible = revision. =20 Two months earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly = that . .=20 .

". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have = commanded him=20 that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other=20 gift."  (Book of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . = and I=20 have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my = purpose is=20 fulfilled in this;  for I will grant unto you no other gift until = it is=20 finished." D&C 5:4.)

Joseph does not have permission or = "gift" to=20 revise the Bible until the Book of Mormon translation is = completed.  He=20 dictates the Book of Mormon "without interruption," thanks to a = temporary=20 peace secured by the Isaac Hale Family, who live across the road and = some four=20 hundred feet to the west.  Joseph and Oliver view the Book of = Mormon text=20 as a clarification of the errors of men, filling in doctrinal = scripture gaps=20 created when the wicked Catholic Church removed plain and precious = passages=20 from the Bible.




End of May, first days of June, = 1829: =20 Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony (where they have already experienced = the=20 scripture enlightenment under discussion here) and move to the Whitmer = Farm in=20 Fayette, New York, to continue the translation work in=20 peace.



June, 1830:  The earliest date which = Matthews=20 postulates for a sort of pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most = general=20 terms:

"The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that = the=20 revelation concerning Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was = received by=20 Joseph Smith in June 1830.  The Prophet did not say what = connection this=20 revelation has with the actual translation of the Bible or whether it = was=20 received while he was engaged in the translation.  However, the = fact that=20 it was included in each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of the = New=20 Translation suggests that there is a close historical = association." =20 (Matthews, p.27)



July, 1830:  According to = Matthews, p.=20 27, "The translation of the Bible was probably in its early=20 stages."


Rick=20 Grunder

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33A80.A2ED6E40-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hugh Stocks" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] E.B. Grandin's print shop Date: 24 Jun 2003 20:46:01 -0400 On 24 Jun 2003 at 15:35, RickBook@aol.com stepped forward and proclaimed: > > In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rbssman@hotmail.com writes: > > The missionary tour guide was quite well > informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was > presenting. The presentation in the printing room is very > educational and complicated. I had no idea that it takes a real > artist to produce a book. > > One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather > of the BofM took two years. As I thought this through is was like > a light going off in my head. This means that most of the books > were not finished until the saints had left for Ohio. It also > makes sense that this is why Martin kept going back to Palmyra > after the move(along with selling property). I am hoping Hugh and > Rick, along with others, might comment more on this. > > > > Whew! I'm too tired to tackle this one today, after working on Mick's > question. Anyone know about this? First time I've heard of it, or > remember hearing of it, anyway. This is new to me, too. And frankly it doesn't make much sense. So does anyone have some documentation on this claim? I'd be VERY interested. Hugh > Rick -- Hugh Stocks hstocks@fuse.net - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Edlund, Mark J" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Soft market Date: 24 Jun 2003 20:45:28 -0500 Roy, Interesting analysis of the DB auction, although my experience with DB auctions is that few of the books are collectible, and so I am not sure an aggregate analysis reflects the collectible market. I think the general consensus of people I have spoken to is that the market for LDS books has definitely softened in the past several years. Whether or not the market is now "soft" is a bit more subjective. Personally, I don't think it is peculiar to the season, as it has been going on for a while now--although it may be worse in the summer. As for the retail market, I have no idea whatsoever. Mark -----Original Message----- Sent: 6/24/2003 12:30 PM It seems to me that the market for LDS books continues to be pretty soft. Not only are prices down, but fewer people seem to be buying. For instance, Deseret Book Auction currently has 726 LDS books listed. Of these, only 26 have at least one bid. Is this peculiar to the season? I know things have been overpriced in the recent past. Is the market settling down into reality? Is my observation true just for Deseret Book Auction? What about retail used book stores? How about ebay? Any thoughts? Roy Schmidt - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Ford Hears the News Date: 27 Jun 2003 11:38:55 EDT --part1_182.1d3630ab.2c2dbf0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One hundred fifty-nine years ago this evening . . . "A short time before sun down, we departed on our return to Carthage. When we had proceeded two miles, we met two individuals, one of them a Mormon, who informed us, that the Smiths, had been assassinated in jail, about five or six o'clock of that day. The intelligence seemed to strike every one with a kind of dumbness. As to myself, it was perfectly astounding; and I anticipated the very worst consequences from it." - Illinois. Governor, 1842-1846 (Ford). . . . MESSAGE OF THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, in Relation to the Disturbances in Hancock County, December, 21, 1844. Springfield: Walters & Weber, Public Printers, 1844, p. 17. --part1_182.1d3630ab.2c2dbf0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One hundred fifty-nine years ago this evening . . .

  "A short time before sun down, we departed on our return to Carthage.=   When we had proceeded two miles, we met two individuals, one of them=20= a Mormon, who informed us, that the Smiths, had been assassinated in jail, a= bout five or six o'clock of that day.  The intelligence seemed to strik= e every one with a kind of dumbness.  As to myself, it was perfectly as= tounding;  and I anticipated the very worst consequences from it."

     - Illinois. Governor, 1842-1846 (Ford).  . . .= MESSAGE OF THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, in Relation to the Distur= bances in Hancock County, December, 21, 1844.  Springfield: Walters &am= p; Weber, Public Printers, 1844, p. 17.
 --part1_182.1d3630ab.2c2dbf0f_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Update on 1830 BoM binding Date: 27 Jun 2003 18:10:22 EDT --part1_41.30b45cb1.2c2e1ace_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes: > I was able to visit Palmyra for the first time this past week. It was a > great trip and quite an experience for me to see the places I have only read > > about. The printing shop is excellent. I can't get over how well done the > exhibit is, the "Palmyra Reflector" and the works of art by C.C.A. > Christensen. It is overwhelming. The missionary tour guide was quite well > informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was presenting. > The presentation in the printing room is very educational and complicated. I > > had no idea that it takes a real artist to produce a book. > > One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather of the BofM > > took two years. As I thought this through is was like a light going off in > my head. This means that most of the books were not finished until the > saints had left for Ohio. It also makes sense that this is why Martin kept > going back to Palmyra after the move(along with selling property). I am > hoping Hugh and Rick, along with others, might comment more on this. I found > > this web site on google. It is the best I have read and I wish I had read it > > before I had gone to Palmyra. Thanks Rick for your knowledge. > Having no such knowledge, I called Peter Crawley this afternoon. After commiserating about Chad's death, I brought up this topic, and have summarized what he said, below (Pete gave me permission to share this with LDS-Bookshelf). I must say that my own instincts from dealing with similar books published here in this Book of Mormon region confirm his opinion . . . An entry in Egbert B. Grandin's journal, 14 July 1831, records Martin Harris coming to Luther Howard's bindery shop (2nd floor of the Grandin building), to pick up some copies of the book. Don Enders, at the Church, who supplies information for the visitors' centers, interpreted this entry as suggesting that copies were bound up slowly over an extended period of time. Peter Crawley told Don that he did not agree with this interpretation. He feels that it was just as likely that when Grandin took a number of copies of the book on consignment in 1830 to sell (as evidenced by Grandin's ads in the newspapers), Grandin would have left the volumes upstairs for storage in Howard's shop (where they were bound) until they were sold. And we know that sales were not exactly a Harry Potter bonanza. It does not seem to make sense that Martin Harris would have sold his farm and paid off the $3,000 the previous April (1831), if the books had not yet been completed. And it would not seem likely that Grandin and Howard would delay the work for two years, presuming they had to finish the job before getting their money. The only instances I have encountered where large numbers of books were left unbound for extended periods were when a customer did not have the money to pay for all the binding work at once - something which did not apply in the Martin Harris/Egbert Grandin arrangement. RG --part1_41.30b45cb1.2c2e1ace_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes:

I was able to visit Palmyra for= the first time this past week. It was a
great trip and quite an experience for me to see the places I have only read=
about. The printing shop is excellent. I can't get over how well done the exhibit is, the "Palmyra Reflector" and the works of art by C.C.A.
Christensen. It is overwhelming. The missionary tour guide was quite well informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was presenting. The presentation in the printing room is very educational and complicated. I=
had no idea that it takes a real artist to produce a book.

One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather of the BofM=
took two years. As I thought this through is was like a light going off in <= BR> my head. This means that most of the books were not finished until the
saints had left for Ohio. It also makes sense that this is why Martin kept <= BR> going back to Palmyra after the move(along with selling property). I am
hoping Hugh and Rick, along with others, might comment more on this. I found=
this web site on google. It is the best I have read and I wish I had read it=
before I had gone to Palmyra. Thanks Rick for your knowledge.



Having no such knowledge, I called Peter Crawley this afternoon.  After= commiserating about Chad's death, I brought up this topic, and have summari= zed what he said, below (Pete gave me permission to share this with LDS-Book= shelf).  I must say that my own instincts from dealing with similar boo= ks published here in this Book of Mormon region confirm his opinion . . .
An entry in Egbert B. Grandin's journal, 14 July 1831, records Martin Harris= coming to Luther Howard's bindery shop (2nd floor of the Grandin building),= to pick up some copies of the book.  Don Enders, at the Church, who su= pplies information for the visitors' centers, interpreted this entry as sugg= esting that copies were bound up slowly over an extended period of time.

Peter Crawley told Don that he did not agree with this interpretation. = He feels that it was just as likely that when Grandin took a number of copi= es of the book on consignment in 1830 to sell (as evidenced by Grandin's ads= in the newspapers), Grandin would have left the volumes upstairs for storag= e in Howard's shop (where they were bound) until they were sold.  And w= e know that sales were not exactly a Harry Potter bonanza.

It does not seem to make sense that Martin Harris would have sold his farm a= nd paid off the $3,000 the previous April (1831), if the books had not yet b= een completed.  And it would not seem likely that Grandin and Howard wo= uld delay the work for two years, presuming they had to finish the job befor= e getting their money.

The only instances I have encountered where large numbers of books were left= unbound for extended periods were when a customer did not have the money to= pay for all the binding work at once - something which did not apply in the= Martin Harris/Egbert Grandin arrangement.

RG --part1_41.30b45cb1.2c2e1ace_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Update on 1830 BoM binding Date: 27 Jun 2003 16:48:07 -0700 Rick, Thank you for taking the time to ask Peter about this. To be accurate the missionary stated it was 22 months, not two years. I was being lazy in typing! Another question: The Kirtland edition, 1837, is always said to be between 3000-5000. I understand that there is some question because of different peoples diaries, letters. I wonder if the burning of the school house/printing shop is also a reason for the relative scarcity of this edition? Joe >Having no such knowledge, I called Peter Crawley this afternoon. After >commiserating about Chad's death, I brought up this topic, and have >summarized what >he said, below (Pete gave me permission to share this with LDS-Bookshelf). >I >must say that my own instincts from dealing with similar books published >here >in this Book of Mormon region confirm his opinion . . . > >An entry in Egbert B. Grandin's journal, 14 July 1831, records Martin >Harris >coming to Luther Howard's bindery shop (2nd floor of the Grandin building), >to >pick up some copies of the book. Don Enders, at the Church, who supplies >information for the visitors' centers, interpreted this entry as suggesting >that >copies were bound up slowly over an extended period of time. > >Peter Crawley told Don that he did not agree with this interpretation. He >feels that it was just as likely that when Grandin took a number of copies >of >the book on consignment in 1830 to sell (as evidenced by Grandin's ads in >the >newspapers), Grandin would have left the volumes upstairs for storage in >Howard's shop (where they were bound) until they were sold. And we know >that sales >were not exactly a Harry Potter bonanza. > >It does not seem to make sense that Martin Harris would have sold his farm >and paid off the $3,000 the previous April (1831), if the books had not yet >been >completed. And it would not seem likely that Grandin and Howard would >delay >the work for two years, presuming they had to finish the job before getting >their money. > >The only instances I have encountered where large numbers of books were >left >unbound for extended periods were when a customer did not have the money to >pay for all the binding work at once - something which did not apply in the >Martin Harris/Egbert Grandin arrangement. > >RG _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift Date: 27 Jun 2003 17:00:46 -0700 Rick, Thanks for this explanation. It has been quite an experience to travel around to the historic sites and then learn of these events. As I stood on the hill Cumorah I reflected on the many visits the Smith made both in their treasure seeking and then for the gold plates. I was overwhelmed with emotion as I stood in the thick of the trees with the birds chirping and wind blowing. The comment by Oliver about their minds being opened makes me ponder Richard Bushmans idea about Joseph and Martin seeking out the "learned" to assist Joseph in learning how to translate. Joe >A worthwhile question, Mick! I hate it when people make me think before >noon. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift Date: 28 Jun 2003 00:39:09 EDT --part1_111.252a3f63.2c2e75ed_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/2003 8:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes: > As I stood on > the hill Cumorah I reflected on the many visits the Smith made both in their > > treasure seeking and then for the gold plates. I was overwhelmed with > emotion as I stood in the thick of the trees with the birds chirping and > wind blowing. I have been there many times, and understand your feelings. Last April, I stood there again with my teeth chattering from the cold, trying to look "cool" (pun intended) in thirty-degree weather while BBC interviewed me walking from the parking lot to the Moroni monument. Somehow, I managed to mention the Three Witnesses' names without slipping up, but chances are my hair was sticking up in the back, or my nose was running or something - we shall see! Now a vignette - one of those bizarre moments that we don't forget. Back in the 1980s, I stopped by the hill one day, and noticed a young man sitting on the step which circles the Moroni monument. He was engaged in deep thought, evidently troubled about something. He was smoking a cigarette. Have always wondered what that was about. RG --part1_111.252a3f63.2c2e75ed_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/27/2003 8:01:16 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes:

As I stood on
the hill Cumorah I reflected on the many visits the Smith made both in their=
treasure seeking and then for the gold plates. I was overwhelmed with
emotion as I stood in the thick of the trees with the birds chirping and wind blowing.



I have been there many times, and understand your feelings.  Last April= , I stood there again with my teeth chattering from the cold, trying to look= "cool" (pun intended) in thirty-degree weather while BBC interviewed me wal= king from the parking lot to the Moroni monument.  Somehow, I managed t= o mention the Three Witnesses' names without slipping up, but chances are my= hair was sticking up in the back, or my nose was running or something - we=20= shall see!

Now a vignette - one of those bizarre moments that we don't forget.  Ba= ck in the 1980s, I stopped by the hill one day, and noticed a young man sitt= ing on the step which circles the Moroni monument.  He was engaged in d= eep thought, evidently troubled about something.  He was smoking a ciga= rette.

Have always wondered what that was about.

RG --part1_111.252a3f63.2c2e75ed_boundary-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Soft market Date: 29 Jun 2003 10:55:37 -0700 I have recently started buying off the e-auction sites. At first I found the prices being paid way too high. It seemed to me that books that are as common as dirt were being bought at 3 and 4 times the dealer price. In the past 6 months of so it seems that the majority of buyers are much more educated and only will bid on books that desireable. Books that are difficult to find will get top dollar. I bid on Glover's "March of the Mormon Battalion" in a torn d.j.. I stopped bidding at what I came to believe was above retail price. I have no idea what the other bidder was willing to pay, but it was well above retail price. But I have also found some books that I feel I did very well on. I recently bought Fanny Stenhouses "Tell It All" 1st edition in v.g. condt. for $35.00 as an example. I believe the auction sites resemble a regular auction much more closely today than they first did. You find good dealers at times and if you really want the book you will can pay an all time high. I also agree with Mark......what I would call a collectable book is 1 or 2% of what is sold on the ebay and 10 to 20% on deseret book. Joe >It seems to me that the market for LDS books continues to be pretty >soft. Not only are prices down, but fewer people seem to be buying. For >instance, Deseret Book Auction currently has 726 LDS books listed. Of >these, only 26 have at least one bid. Is this peculiar to the season? I >know things have been overpriced in the recent past. Is the market >settling down into reality? Is my observation true just for Deseret Book >Auction? What about retail used book stores? How about ebay? Any >thoughts? > >Roy Schmidt _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Wilford Wood Date: 29 Jun 2003 11:28:55 -0700 I am convinced that a book needs to be written on Wilford Wood. Having visited Kirtland, Hiram, Palmyra, and Fayette I believe we as a church owe him a great deal of respect and appreciation. I also feel the church under Pres. Hinkley has done an incredible job at preservation and presentation. I would like to see a book on Wood that details his adventures at aquiring the historical properties, artifacts and books. I have read a little, and heard a little. I recently was able to read a transcript of Woods were he details his buying the Johnson Farm House. Basically he writes that he and Jack Hill (the surveyor) met with Mrs. Monroe and her son Kress (the owners) to discuss the details of buying the property. The Monroe's insisted that the church buy the machinery and cattle, and Wood was given direct orders not to buy anything but the property. This continued until midnight. Everyone went to bed and Wood and Hill went to bed in the "revelation room". Wood and Hill prayed about there dilemna, Wood woke-up three time, on the third he felt something pulling on his arm, he looked up and saw Joseph Smith. Joseph told him to get paper and pencil write down his instructions. Wood then writes that Joseph told him to get up in the morning help the Monroes with chores and not to mention the sale. He is then supposed to wait for the Monroes to bring up the sale, read his intrustions on buying the property and have Kress sign the document. The instuctions on the sale is that the church will buy 160 acres instead of the original 300, then Wood is to trade 1000 sq feet of property on the north side of the road for 1000 sq feet on the south side of the road. This is where Joseph was tarred and feathered. Wood and Hill do as Joseph instructs and everything happens as Joseph tells him. I have condensed this and left out detail, but this is essentially what he writes. I believe this is only one example among many of Woods life and adventures. Joe _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Edlund, Mark J" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Wilford Wood Date: 29 Jun 2003 15:58:28 -0500 Interesting story Joe. What I have often thought would be an interesting book would be the history of Mormon book collecting. There have been some colorful and interesting people involved. For example, virtually nothing has been written on Herbert Auerbach. Few people have ever even heard of David Martin. There is a distinguished line of bibliographers, such as Dale Morgan, Chad Flake, Peter Crawley, Lyn Jacobs, Richard Saunders, and Rick Grunder when he publishes his efforts. And of course there is the Hofmann affair. Anyway, I think it would be good reading. Mark -----Original Message----- Sent: 6/29/2003 1:28 PM I am convinced that a book needs to be written on Wilford Wood. Having visited Kirtland, Hiram, Palmyra, and Fayette I believe we as a church owe him a great deal of respect and appreciation. I also feel the church under Pres. Hinkley has done an incredible job at preservation and presentation. I would like to see a book on Wood that details his adventures at aquiring the historical properties, artifacts and books. I have read a little, and heard a little. I recently was able to read a transcript of Woods were he details his buying the Johnson Farm House. Basically he writes that he and Jack Hill (the surveyor) met with Mrs. Monroe and her son Kress (the owners) to discuss the details of buying the property. The Monroe's insisted that the church buy the machinery and cattle, and Wood was given direct orders not to buy anything but the property. This continued until midnight. Everyone went to bed and Wood and Hill went to bed in the "revelation room". Wood and Hill prayed about there dilemna, Wood woke-up three time, on the third he felt something pulling on his arm, he looked up and saw Joseph Smith. Joseph told him to get paper and pencil write down his instructions. Wood then writes that Joseph told him to get up in the morning help the Monroes with chores and not to mention the sale. He is then supposed to wait for the Monroes to bring up the sale, read his intrustions on buying the property and have Kress sign the document. The instuctions on the sale is that the church will buy 160 acres instead of the original 300, then Wood is to trade 1000 sq feet of property on the north side of the road for 1000 sq feet on the south side of the road. This is where Joseph was tarred and feathered. Wood and Hill do as Joseph instructs and everything happens as Joseph tells him. I have condensed this and left out detail, but this is essentially what he writes. I believe this is only one example among many of Woods life and adventures. Joe _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Wilford Wood Date: 29 Jun 2003 14:10:51 -0700 I agree. When I read you and Ken writing about Auerbach, Rick remembering Chad, or people writing about Sam Weller and his adventures in publishing I am glued to the screen. Joe > Interesting story Joe. > >What I have often thought would be an interesting book would be the history >of Mormon book collecting. There have been some colorful and interesting >people involved. For example, virtually nothing has been written on >Herbert >Auerbach. Few people have ever even heard of David Martin. There is a >distinguished line of bibliographers, such as Dale Morgan, Chad Flake, >Peter >Crawley, Lyn Jacobs, Richard Saunders, and Rick Grunder when he publishes >his efforts. And of course there is the Hofmann affair. > >Anyway, I think it would be good reading. > >Mark > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Geisner >To: lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com >Sent: 6/29/2003 1:28 PM >Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Wilford Wood > >I am convinced that a book needs to be written on Wilford Wood. Having >visited Kirtland, Hiram, Palmyra, and Fayette I believe we as a church >owe >him a great deal of respect and appreciation. I also feel the church >under >Pres. Hinkley has done an incredible job at preservation and >presentation. > >I would like to see a book on Wood that details his adventures at >aquiring >the historical properties, artifacts and books. I have read a little, >and >heard a little. I recently was able to read a transcript of Woods were >he >details his buying the Johnson Farm House. Basically he writes that he >and >Jack Hill (the surveyor) met with Mrs. Monroe and her son Kress (the >owners) >to discuss the details of buying the property. The Monroe's insisted >that >the church buy the machinery and cattle, and Wood was given direct >orders >not to buy anything but the property. This continued until midnight. >Everyone went to bed and Wood and Hill went to bed in the "revelation >room". >Wood and Hill prayed about there dilemna, Wood woke-up three time, on >the >third he felt something pulling on his arm, he looked up and saw Joseph >Smith. Joseph told him to get paper and pencil write down his >instructions. >Wood then writes that Joseph told him to get up in the morning help the >Monroes with chores and not to mention the sale. He is then supposed to >wait >for the Monroes to bring up the sale, read his intrustions on buying the > >property and have Kress sign the document. The instuctions on the sale >is >that the church will buy 160 acres instead of the original 300, then >Wood is >to trade 1000 sq feet of property on the north side of the road for 1000 >sq >feet on the south side of the road. This is where Joseph was tarred and >feathered. Wood and Hill do as Joseph instructs and everything happens >as >Joseph tells him. I have condensed this and left out detail, but this is > >essentially what he writes. I believe this is only one example among >many of >Woods life and adventures. > >Joe > >_________________________________________________________________ >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > >---------------------------------------------------------- >- LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books >- To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with >- "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. >- For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" > >---------------------------------------------------------- >- LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books >- To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with >- "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. >- For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] David Martin Date: 29 Jun 2003 14:15:26 -0700 You wrote that many don't know who David Martin is. I'm one of them. Please enlighten me. Joe _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Philip Bradford" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Journals Date: 29 Jun 2003 14:53:15 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C33E4E.2B795910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many have remarked or made comment that the book market has softened. = For several years, I have wanted Signature's publication of the Wilford = Woodruff Journals with the index. The last time I heard a quote for that series = was $3,000 plus. What would be a fair asking price for that series in = today's market? =20 Phil ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C33E4E.2B795910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Many have = remarked or made comment that the book market has softened.  For several = years, I have wanted Signature’s publication of the Wilford Woodruff = Journals with the index.  The last time I heard a quote for that series was = $3,000 plus.  What would be a fair asking price for that series in = today’s market?

 

Phil

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C33E4E.2B795910-- - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Edlund, Mark J" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] David Martin Date: 30 Jun 2003 08:35:44 -0500 There are people on the list who know far more about David Martin than me. Perhaps they can tell us a little bit about him. Mark -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 4:15 PM You wrote that many don't know who David Martin is. I'm one of them. Please enlighten me. Joe _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com"