From: owner-lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com (lds-bookshelf-digest) To: lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: lds-bookshelf-digest V1 #919 Reply-To: lds-bookshelf Sender: owner-lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk lds-bookshelf-digest Sunday, April 8 2001 Volume 01 : Number 919 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:20:52 -0400 From: Frank Marotta Subject: Extant and Extancy (Was: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] (Fwd) [SL] O Cowdery "Defense") This post reminds me of one of my favorite subjects regarding antiquarian books and pamphlets. Specifically, I have interest in knowing what is or is not extant (i.e., where extant means "Still existing; not destroyed or lost"). So the question is this: what titles in 19th century LDS literature are well documented as to their historical existence, but for which there are no known extant copies? This Cowdery item, if genuine, would be a good example of a non-extant item. In my mind (never spoken in the presence of others till now), I use the term "extancy" as derivative of "extant" (e.g., "I would like to determine the extancy of such and such a book"), but Webster forbids it, providing the following as the sole definition of extancy: "the state of rising above others; a projection". So perhaps a rebuke of my butchering of the English language is in order; or perhaps someone else can dare to use extancy as I do, and then we have coined a term and they can print some new dictionaries! Frank Marotta On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 15:51:52 EDT RickBook@aol.com writes: > The 1906 R. B. Neal anti-Mormon pamphlet which published the text of > this > purported 1839 pamphlet is, so far as I know, the earliest known > appearance. > I also understand that no printing shop is known to have existed in > the town > of Norton, Ohio, named in the purported original imprint. This, > just off the > top of my head, and Flake entry 2544. > > So far as "some of the evidence used to detect this as a forgery," > mentioned > in the relayed query, there would never be a danger of mistaking the > Neal > pamphlet as an 1839 imprint. We are dealing here with a simple lack > of an > 1839 original anywhere, it seems. > > I have heard that Juanita Brooks believed at one time that the text > might > have been an authentic 1839 work, but no real evidence for that has > been > presented which I have seen. When I began to read the text at one > time, I > stopped after a few paragraphs, feeling that the writing style could > never > have come from the pen of Oliver Cowdery. Just my personal > reactions. > > Rick Grunder > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books > - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with > - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message > body. > - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 16:43:09 -0700 From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf]Autobiography of John Brown

I think Rick is right on target. I have been having a conversation with a friend who is doing some research. He told me that he recently found a couple of items in the Archives that as far as he knows have never been published or noted. I often forget that much of our history has not been explored. I figure with all the books and articles we currently have access to gives us all the information. This autobiography is a good example of how rich our history is, and how little we really have explored.

It was Orson Pratt and John Brown who first saw the valley from the hills/mountains. The next day Erastus Snow and Orson Pratt walked down to the valley while others like John Brown explored the hills/mountains above the valley floor. Yes, the autobiography is a great source for these day's, that's why I was surprised "Orson Pratt's journal" does not quote from them.

Joe

Kim Leavitt writes:
>Do you have any theories about this phenomenon? Do you suspect he is being >written out of the histories for some reason (a la Jesse Gause), or just >overlooked? I've read elsewhere that it was Orson Pratt and Erastus Snow >who first saw the SL valley, not OP and John Brown (e.g. >http://www.xmission.com/~dkenison/lds/ch_hist/arc/slc_view.html). Does John >Brown's autobiography report this event? > >Kim Leavitt


Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

- ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 16:52:06 -0700 From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] (Fwd) [SL] O Cowdery "Defense"

I remember both Jerald and Sandra Tanner, and Richard L. Anderson writing that "Defense" is a forgery. I think RLA wrote this first in his "Improvement Era" articles which he wrote about the three witnesses. I would guess it would be found in his "Investigating the BOM Witnesses". I think the Tanners have a publication on "Defense", and I read it in their news letter.

 

Joe


Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

- ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:17:05 -0700 From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Additional bookselling humor What is it Rick? You seem to attract those who are short one taco of a combination plate.:-) Joe >The second in my series of amusing internet exchanges, resulting from my >website. > >Curt, I just had to do this - perhaps the devil made me do it. Besides, my >compliments were sincere, and the gentleman may even buy things! > >Chuckling, > >RickBook > > >[quoted e-mail exchange follows:] > >In a message dated 04/07/2001 12:35:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >k4hx@webkorner.com writes: > ><< 4/6/01 11:23:28 PM > > Hello Rick- > > I stumbled upon your offerring on eBay for the set of (2) pages from a >1st >edition of > the Book of Mormon. Wow! I had no idea that only two leaves from such a >book > would be worth several hundreds of dollars (or more, the auction is >ongoing)! What > would a complete copy of the book bring? > > I did a search on eBay for interesting things pertaining to Church >history >just to have > something to do. When I saw the link on your eBay ad to your website, I >was > naturally drawn to its exploration. I must say it has been fascinating! >A >beautifully > structured site, I might add! Your website may have sparked a new >adventure >for > me. To seek and find some kind of old and/or rare treasure that is >related >to the > Church, one of my life's passions. > > Unfortunately, it doesn't take much time to be made aware of the rather >high >price > such antiquities demand. My question to you is...what can be had that is >perhaps > not so rare as to be highly valued by well endowed collectors only, but >that >is > nontheless interesting to an average member of the Church, such as I? > > I would also like to ask you the following personal question: > > Are you in any way apostate or rebellious towards the church? The only >reason I > ask is that when reading about some of the items you have for sale that >tend >to deal > with contemporary articles written about Joseph Smith, and glancing over >your > novel and its subtitle, I get the feeling (nagging hunch) that you might >be >someone > who has set out to prove, in this day and time, that Joseph was a phony. >Perhaps I > am simply confusing the intent of those in Joseph's day with that of your >own, and > am jumping to conclusions, not having read your book in its entirety. >Please forgive > if this is the case. > > If, in fact, you have a strong testimony, and that Mormon antiquities >fascinate you, as > they appear to have begun to fascinate me, or that Church history >collectibles are > simply your business, I apologize. Nevertheless, I would suggest that >you >publish > your Testimony on your website, so that potential new customers like me >don't > misunderstand your purpose in seeking these things and offerring them for >sale to > others. > > Best regards, > . . . . . >> > > > >Dear . . . . ., > >I am not the only person who has commented to fellow collectors and dealers >in recent years how surprising it is, that there are people out there who >feel they have a right to ask highly personal questions of total strangers. >I have customers who have spent tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of >dollars with me over the years, yet we would never dream of broaching each >others' personal boundaries in such a manner. > >From long experience, I should also add that if you use someone's >proclaimed >faithfulness and commitment to the LDS Church as a basis for whether or not >to trust them in business dealings - then you had better hold on to their >wallet. > >Let me say, on the other hand, that I believe you are sincere, and that you >certainly deserve access to the fascinating world of Mormon collectibles. >Let me therefore refer you to my good friend and colleague, who is a model >of >LDS orthodoxy and worthiness, faithful to the LDS Church (Salt Lake City >Church, not Reorganized, not Fundamentalist, etc.), highly knowledgeable >about LDS books, and honest in his dealings. (I feel certain that he has a >strong testimony, although he may not be willing to perform on command.) . >. . > >Curt Bench >Benchmark Books >Salt Lake City, Utah >(801) 486-3111 > >---------------------------------------------------------- >- LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books >- To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with >- "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. >- For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:17:52 -0700 From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Additional bookselling humor What is it Rick? You seem to attract those who are short one taco of a combination plate.:-) Joe (a FORMER retail owner) >The second in my series of amusing internet exchanges, resulting from my >website. > >Curt, I just had to do this - perhaps the devil made me do it. Besides, my >compliments were sincere, and the gentleman may even buy things! > >Chuckling, > >RickBook > > >[quoted e-mail exchange follows:] > >In a message dated 04/07/2001 12:35:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >k4hx@webkorner.com writes: > ><< 4/6/01 11:23:28 PM > > Hello Rick- > > I stumbled upon your offerring on eBay for the set of (2) pages from a >1st >edition of > the Book of Mormon. Wow! I had no idea that only two leaves from such a >book > would be worth several hundreds of dollars (or more, the auction is >ongoing)! What > would a complete copy of the book bring? > > I did a search on eBay for interesting things pertaining to Church >history >just to have > something to do. When I saw the link on your eBay ad to your website, I >was > naturally drawn to its exploration. I must say it has been fascinating! >A >beautifully > structured site, I might add! Your website may have sparked a new >adventure >for > me. To seek and find some kind of old and/or rare treasure that is >related >to the > Church, one of my life's passions. > > Unfortunately, it doesn't take much time to be made aware of the rather >high >price > such antiquities demand. My question to you is...what can be had that is >perhaps > not so rare as to be highly valued by well endowed collectors only, but >that >is > nontheless interesting to an average member of the Church, such as I? > > I would also like to ask you the following personal question: > > Are you in any way apostate or rebellious towards the church? The only >reason I > ask is that when reading about some of the items you have for sale that >tend >to deal > with contemporary articles written about Joseph Smith, and glancing over >your > novel and its subtitle, I get the feeling (nagging hunch) that you might >be >someone > who has set out to prove, in this day and time, that Joseph was a phony. >Perhaps I > am simply confusing the intent of those in Joseph's day with that of your >own, and > am jumping to conclusions, not having read your book in its entirety. >Please forgive > if this is the case. > > If, in fact, you have a strong testimony, and that Mormon antiquities >fascinate you, as > they appear to have begun to fascinate me, or that Church history >collectibles are > simply your business, I apologize. Nevertheless, I would suggest that >you >publish > your Testimony on your website, so that potential new customers like me >don't > misunderstand your purpose in seeking these things and offerring them for >sale to > others. > > Best regards, > . . . . . >> > > > >Dear . . . . ., > >I am not the only person who has commented to fellow collectors and dealers >in recent years how surprising it is, that there are people out there who >feel they have a right to ask highly personal questions of total strangers. >I have customers who have spent tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of >dollars with me over the years, yet we would never dream of broaching each >others' personal boundaries in such a manner. > >From long experience, I should also add that if you use someone's >proclaimed >faithfulness and commitment to the LDS Church as a basis for whether or not >to trust them in business dealings - then you had better hold on to their >wallet. > >Let me say, on the other hand, that I believe you are sincere, and that you >certainly deserve access to the fascinating world of Mormon collectibles. >Let me therefore refer you to my good friend and colleague, who is a model >of >LDS orthodoxy and worthiness, faithful to the LDS Church (Salt Lake City >Church, not Reorganized, not Fundamentalist, etc.), highly knowledgeable >about LDS books, and honest in his dealings. (I feel certain that he has a >strong testimony, although he may not be willing to perform on command.) . >. . > >Curt Bench >Benchmark Books >Salt Lake City, Utah >(801) 486-3111 > >---------------------------------------------------------- >- LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books >- To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with >- "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. >- For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 12:14:16 -0600 From: "Hugh J. McKell" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Additional bookselling humor At 02:50 PM 4/7/2001 EDT, Rickbook wrote: >The second in my series of amusing internet exchanges, resulting from my >website. > > Nevertheless, I would suggest that you publish your Testimony on your website, so that >potential new customers like me don't misunderstand your purpose in seeking these things and >offerring them for sale to others. > > Best regards, Rick, my first reaction to this highly illuminating post was a good belly laugh. On the other hand I see these people as having attained a much, much higher level piety, bigotry and naivete which I have not pursued . I have probably talked to this person's mother on numerous occasions over the past several months - I have found that women are much more unabashed at asking such personal questions than men. I have tried to politely evade their prying questions with such responses as "I'm from Washington but now I live in Utah" yet I have found that most times this evasion will not suffice and they continue to pursue their question. Sometimes I finally ask " why do you ask?" and I have found that to many, my response to their question is beyond their comprehension - why would anyone not declare their personal beliefs and commitments to total strangers over the phone!!!!! Once when a person continued to press and I finally answered in the affirmative this person then wanted to know if I was active, paid my tithing and went to the temple. I guess it must be that the thought of purchasing or even discussing the purchase of a mormon book with someone that might be a non-mormon is unthinkable - or worse. One of the employees at Benchmark was even asked what priesthood he held!!! Clods, all of em Clods. But on second thought Rick, perhaps if you had only published an ethics statement on your web page that would have sufficed............ Hugh - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:27:51 -0600 From: John Hatch Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Additional bookselling humor The great irony of all this, is that I've never had anyone ask me these types of personal questions at DB, which is where I'd expect it. Maybe they just figure that since it's a Church owned store that we all must be good, card carrying members. It's amazing that if you just take one of the letter "m"s out of the word Mormon, how revealing it is about some folks. Good luck in dealing with them! John "Hugh J. McKell" wrote: > At 02:50 PM 4/7/2001 EDT, Rickbook wrote: > > >The second in my series of amusing internet exchanges, resulting from my > >website. > > > > Nevertheless, I would suggest that you publish your Testimony on your > website, so that > >potential new customers like me don't misunderstand your purpose in > seeking these things and >offerring them for sale to others. > > > > Best regards, > > Rick, my first reaction to this highly illuminating post was a good belly > laugh. On the other hand I see these people as having attained a much, > much higher level piety, bigotry and naivete which I have not pursued . I > have probably talked to this person's mother on numerous occasions over > the past several months - I have found that women are much more unabashed > at asking such personal questions than men. I have tried to politely evade > their prying questions with such responses as "I'm from Washington but now > I live in Utah" yet I have found that most times this evasion will not > suffice and they continue to pursue their question. Sometimes I finally ask > " why do you ask?" and I have found that to many, my response to their > question is beyond their comprehension - why would anyone not declare their > personal beliefs and commitments to total strangers over the phone!!!!! > Once when a person continued to press and I finally answered in the > affirmative this person then wanted to know if I was active, paid my > tithing and went to the temple. I guess it must be that the thought of > purchasing or even discussing the purchase of a mormon book with someone > that might be a non-mormon is unthinkable - or worse. One of the > employees at Benchmark was even asked what priesthood he held!!! Clods, > all of em Clods. > > But on second thought Rick, perhaps if you had only published an ethics > statement on your web page that would have sufficed............ > > Hugh > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books > - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with > - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. > - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:38:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "EDLUND,MARK JAMES" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Why doesn't this happen to me? I have the cloth bound copy of Bancroft's Utah, no plates. It has a card in the front of it "With the compliments of Wilford Woodruff Salt Lake City". it sounds like Woodruff must have passed out a lot of these. Mark Edlund On Sat, 7 Apr 2001, Keith Irwin wrote: > Rick and I seem prone to reporting transcripts. Here's another phone call > that happened last Monday evening. > > She: Bishop Irwin. A mutual friend told me that you repair old books. > Me: Oh, I do simple repairs on my own books and occasionally for friends. Why? > She: Well, I bought a copy of The History of Utah by Bancroft on the > internet for $35 and it has some loose pages. > Me: I see. Is the binding tan colored leather or red cloth? > She: Red Cloth with gold and black on it. > Me: Nice. That's the pictorial edition and it's fairly scarce. Look > opposite page 20 and you should see a color plate. > She: [pause] Nope. No picture there. > Me: How about opposite page 79? Should be a picture of missionaries with > the Indians. > She: Nope! > Me: [quickly scrambling through Flake] Hmmm. There is a variant of this > book with no plates. > She: It was originally in a library. > Me: That may explain it. How do you know it came from a library? Does it > have a stamp or pocket? > She: There is a note in the front from the donor: "Presented to the > ???? Library, Wilford Woodruff." > Me: [Stunned silence] Oh! > > I suppose I could have been a scumbag and offered her the chance to triple > her money but I didn't. She now knows she has something and I'll tip in > some pages in the next few weeks. > > Keith > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books > - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with > - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. > - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" > - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:06:05 -0800 From: "Dennis Nelson" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Additional bookselling humor And is it any surprise that at least once a year we are treated to some article in the Wall Street Journal, or other national source about the investment gullibility of segments of the LDS populace? Just as some use the answers to their personal questions to decide on whether or not to purchase, they use the same questions to decide on investing their money. Too bad, Hugh, you have personal boundaries, or you could probably sell more books by telling such people that you had a private meeting with the brethren in the temple and they affirmed how vital and important whatever book you are selling at the time is. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Hugh J. McKell Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 11:14 AM To: lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Additional bookselling humor At 02:50 PM 4/7/2001 EDT, Rickbook wrote: >The second in my series of amusing internet exchanges, resulting from my >website. > > Nevertheless, I would suggest that you publish your Testimony on your website, so that >potential new customers like me don't misunderstand your purpose in seeking these things and >offerring them for sale to others. > > Best regards, Rick, my first reaction to this highly illuminating post was a good belly laugh. On the other hand I see these people as having attained a much, much higher level piety, bigotry and naivete which I have not pursued . I have probably talked to this person's mother on numerous occasions over the past several months - I have found that women are much more unabashed at asking such personal questions than men. I have tried to politely evade their prying questions with such responses as "I'm from Washington but now I live in Utah" yet I have found that most times this evasion will not suffice and they continue to pursue their question. Sometimes I finally ask " why do you ask?" and I have found that to many, my response to their question is beyond their comprehension - why would anyone not declare their personal beliefs and commitments to total strangers over the phone!!!!! Once when a person continued to press and I finally answered in the affirmative this person then wanted to know if I was active, paid my tithing and went to the temple. I guess it must be that the thought of purchasing or even discussing the purchase of a mormon book with someone that might be a non-mormon is unthinkable - or worse. One of the employees at Benchmark was even asked what priesthood he held!!! Clods, all of em Clods. But on second thought Rick, perhaps if you had only published an ethics statement on your web page that would have sufficed............ Hugh - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 13:13:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "EDLUND,MARK JAMES" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Additional bookselling humor I sympathasize with Rick and Hugh in their view that religion is something that is highly personal. I think we should also remember the importance the church places on the public expression of belief. Thus I do not attribute questions like they describe to a "much, much higher level piety, bigotry and naivete which I have not pursued" as does Hugh. (How much Hugh is being tongue-in-cheek is hard for me to say in this instance--probably quite a bit). I see it as a natural part of the culture. I know that when I was a missionary I used to ask people personal questions on a regular basis. Of course it makes me kind of wince now, but it also helps me to understand where these people are coming from. Nowadays when people ask me about my religous beliefs, I answer like Rick did, basically saying that religion is a highly personal issue for me, and that I only discuss my beliefs with close friends and family. Usually people are quite surprised by this--which indicates to me that is not a common viewpoint in the church culture. Along with this, I usually do not ask others about their beliefs, and I try to never assume I know what others believe. BTW, I find that non-Mormons are usually much more intrusive with their questions than Mormons. Mark Edlund On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Hugh J. McKell wrote: > At 02:50 PM 4/7/2001 EDT, Rickbook wrote: > > >The second in my series of amusing internet exchanges, resulting from my > >website. > > > > Nevertheless, I would suggest that you publish your Testimony on your > website, so that > >potential new customers like me don't misunderstand your purpose in > seeking these things and >offerring them for sale to others. > > > > Best regards, > > Rick, my first reaction to this highly illuminating post was a good belly > laugh. On the other hand I see these people as having attained a much, > much higher level piety, bigotry and naivete which I have not pursued . I > have probably talked to this person's mother on numerous occasions over > the past several months - I have found that women are much more unabashed > at asking such personal questions than men. I have tried to politely evade > their prying questions with such responses as "I'm from Washington but now > I live in Utah" yet I have found that most times this evasion will not > suffice and they continue to pursue their question. Sometimes I finally ask > " why do you ask?" and I have found that to many, my response to their > question is beyond their comprehension - why would anyone not declare their > personal beliefs and commitments to total strangers over the phone!!!!! > Once when a person continued to press and I finally answered in the > affirmative this person then wanted to know if I was active, paid my > tithing and went to the temple. I guess it must be that the thought of > purchasing or even discussing the purchase of a mormon book with someone > that might be a non-mormon is unthinkable - or worse. One of the > employees at Benchmark was even asked what priesthood he held!!! Clods, > all of em Clods. > > But on second thought Rick, perhaps if you had only published an ethics > statement on your web page that would have sufficed............ > > Hugh > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books > - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with > - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. > - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" > - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:34:41 -0700 From: "Phil" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Additional bookselling humor I have enjoyed this thread, because it validates many of my personal experiences. Mark is right that the Church as an institution encourages public expression of ones belief which naturally leads to questions by the truly pious among us. My experience has been that once these people seek you out for your professional care, they frequently expect considerations with your professional fees, time, advice, and generally make much more after hour demands that quickly become obtrusive. Then when you accommodate their every whim, they are frequently the ones with which you have collection problems. I agree this attitude plays a part in the high number of illegal scams to which LDS members fall prey. Phil > I sympathasize with Rick and Hugh in their view that religion is something > that is highly personal. I think we should also remember the importance > the church places on the public expression of belief. Thus I do not > attribute questions like they describe to a "much, much higher level > piety, bigotry and naivete which I have not pursued" as does Hugh. (How > much Hugh is being tongue-in-cheek is hard for me to say in this > instance--probably quite a bit). I see it as a natural part of the > culture. I know that when I was a missionary I used to ask people > personal questions on a regular basis. Of course it makes me kind of wince > now, but it also helps me to understand where these people are coming > from. > > Nowadays when people ask me about my religous beliefs, I answer like Rick > did, basically saying that religion is a highly personal issue for me, and > that I only discuss my beliefs with close friends and family. Usually > people are quite surprised by this--which indicates to me that is not a > common viewpoint in the church culture. Along with this, I usually do not > ask others about their beliefs, and I try to never assume I know what > others believe. > > BTW, I find that non-Mormons are usually much more intrusive with their > questions than Mormons. > > > Mark Edlund > > > On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Hugh J. McKell wrote: > > > At 02:50 PM 4/7/2001 EDT, Rickbook wrote: > > > > >The second in my series of amusing internet exchanges, resulting from my > > >website. > > > > > > Nevertheless, I would suggest that you publish your Testimony on your > > website, so that > > >potential new customers like me don't misunderstand your purpose in > > seeking these things and >offerring them for sale to others. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Rick, my first reaction to this highly illuminating post was a good belly > > laugh. On the other hand I see these people as having attained a much, > > much higher level piety, bigotry and naivete which I have not pursued . I > > have probably talked to this person's mother on numerous occasions over > > the past several months - I have found that women are much more unabashed > > at asking such personal questions than men. I have tried to politely evade > > their prying questions with such responses as "I'm from Washington but now > > I live in Utah" yet I have found that most times this evasion will not > > suffice and they continue to pursue their question. Sometimes I finally ask > > " why do you ask?" and I have found that to many, my response to their > > question is beyond their comprehension - why would anyone not declare their > > personal beliefs and commitments to total strangers over the phone!!!!! > > Once when a person continued to press and I finally answered in the > > affirmative this person then wanted to know if I was active, paid my > > tithing and went to the temple. I guess it must be that the thought of > > purchasing or even discussing the purchase of a mormon book with someone > > that might be a non-mormon is unthinkable - or worse. One of the > > employees at Benchmark was even asked what priesthood he held!!! Clods, > > all of em Clods. > > > > But on second thought Rick, perhaps if you had only published an ethics > > statement on your web page that would have sufficed............ > > > > Hugh > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books > > - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with > > - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. > > - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books > - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with > - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. > - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:36:54 -0700 From: Keith Irwin Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Why doesn't this happen to me? Interesting info, Mark. I wonder if, indeed, her book has a card rather than an inscription. Keith At 12:38 PM 4/8/01 -0700, you wrote: >I have the cloth bound copy of Bancroft's Utah, no plates. It has a card >in the front of it "With the compliments of Wilford Woodruff Salt Lake >City". it sounds like Woodruff must have passed out a lot of these. > >Mark Edlund > > >On Sat, 7 Apr 2001, Keith Irwin wrote: > > > Rick and I seem prone to reporting transcripts. Here's another phone call > > that happened last Monday evening. > > > > She: Bishop Irwin. A mutual friend told me that you repair old books. > > Me: Oh, I do simple repairs on my own books and occasionally for > friends. Why? > > She: Well, I bought a copy of The History of Utah by Bancroft on the > > internet for $35 and it has some loose pages. > > Me: I see. Is the binding tan colored leather or red cloth? > > She: Red Cloth with gold and black on it. > > Me: Nice. That's the pictorial edition and it's fairly scarce. Look > > opposite page 20 and you should see a color plate. > > She: [pause] Nope. No picture there. > > Me: How about opposite page 79? Should be a picture of missionaries with > > the Indians. > > She: Nope! > > Me: [quickly scrambling through Flake] Hmmm. There is a variant of this > > book with no plates. > > She: It was originally in a library. > > Me: That may explain it. How do you know it came from a > library? Does it > > have a stamp or pocket? > > She: There is a note in the front from the donor: "Presented to the > > ???? Library, Wilford Woodruff." > > Me: [Stunned silence] Oh! > > > > I suppose I could have been a scumbag and offered her the chance to triple > > her money but I didn't. She now knows she has something and I'll tip in > > some pages in the next few weeks. > > > > Keith > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books > > - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with > > - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. > > - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------- >- LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books >- To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with >- "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. >- For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ End of lds-bookshelf-digest V1 #919 ***********************************