From: owner-lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com (lds-bookshelf-digest) To: lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: lds-bookshelf-digest V1 #965 Reply-To: lds-bookshelf Sender: owner-lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk lds-bookshelf-digest Tuesday, June 24 2003 Volume 01 : Number 965 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:11:40 -0600 From: "Malcolm Vickery" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven >>>As far as I'm concerned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and pedophilia, quite another. >>>Ken Sanders Hear, hear!! Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction. Malcolm - Distinctive Books - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:53:59 -0500 From: "Lark and Mick Reasor" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] E.B. Grandin's print shop - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Geisner" To: Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:42 PM Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] E.B. Grandin's print shop . I found > this web site on google. It is the best I have read and I wish I had read it > before I had gone to Palmyra. Thanks Rick for your knowledge. > > http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/ I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about this paragraph: "It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in April of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of."[6] I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scripture (inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon scripture, I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the reference in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of witnesses. (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.) So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to understanding mysterious Book of Mormon passages? 6. Pp.110 and 548; 2 Nephi 27:12 and Ether 5:2-4 in modern editions (i.e., editions published by the LDS [Utah] Church as divided into verses and shorter chapters by Orson Pratt beginning with the Liverpool, 1879, edition). Mick - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:30:41 -0600 From: "Roy Schmidt" Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Soft market It seems to me that the market for LDS books continues to be pretty soft. Not only are prices down, but fewer people seem to be buying. For instance, Deseret Book Auction currently has 726 LDS books listed. Of these, only 26 have at least one bid. Is this peculiar to the season? I know things have been overpriced in the recent past. Is the market settling down into reality? Is my observation true just for Deseret Book Auction? What about retail used book stores? How about ebay? Any thoughts? Roy Schmidt - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:28:28 EDT From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift - --part1_152.20b99061.2c2a005c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, marklick@callta.com writes: >http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/ >I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about this paragraph: >"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in April of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of."[6] >I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scripture (inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon scripture, I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the reference in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of witnesses. (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.) So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to understanding mysterious Book of Mormon passages? A worthwhile question, Mick! I hate it when people make me think before noon. The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to Octavo Corporation. My original text had the following footnote for the passage in question: Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price. Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER TRANSLATION"; JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . , Robert J. Matthews applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the upcoming revision of the Bible. Matthews writes: "May 15, 1829; near Harmony, Pennsylvania. While translating the Book of Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious parts' had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi 13, 14; Mormon 8:33). It follows that a gospel dispensation based upon the restoration of ancient things would include a restoration of at least some of these missing passages of scripture. . . . . . "The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true meaning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the ability to recognize faulty texts and correct them." (Provo, Utah: BYU Press, c. 1975, p. 24) In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage in Joseph's History makes sense. Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting this History (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had spread an uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . . darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people." This feels comfortable to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith as an all-purpose prophet. However, the chronology of events which Joseph Smith volunteers here convinces me that his passage about scripture enlightenment was intended specifically to describe his Book of Mormon dictation, not the revision of the Bible: May 15, 1829: The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3), "Immediately . . . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ." 1:73. May 15 to late May, 1829: The window of time available for the next verse, the one in question: "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc. 1:74. Verses 74-5 make it clear that the setting for this scripture enlightenment is Harmony, Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is beginning, and the Hale Family protects them: "74 . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the [Harmony, PA] neighborhood. "75 We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . . And their intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife's father's family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption; and therefore offered and promised us protection . . ." Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision. Two months earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . . . ". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift." (Book of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." D&C 5:4.) Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until the Book of Mormon translation is completed. He dictates the Book of Mormon "without interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by the Isaac Hale Family, who live across the road and some four hundred feet to the west. Joseph and Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a clarification of the errors of men, filling in doctrinal scripture gaps created when the wicked Catholic Church removed plain and precious passages from the Bible. End of May, first days of June, 1829: Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony (where they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under discussion here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to continue the translation work in peace. June, 1830: The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms: "The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation concerning Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by Joseph Smith in June 1830. The Prophet did not say what connection this revelation has with the actual translation of the Bible or whether it was received while he was engaged in the translation. However, the fact that it was included in each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of the New Translation suggests that there is a close historical association." (Matthews, p.27) July, 1830: According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the Bible was probably in its early stages." Rick Grunder - --part1_152.20b99061.2c2a005c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, marklick@callta.com writes:

>http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/

>I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about thi= s
paragraph:

>"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in Apr= il
of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to<= BR> paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning=
and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a
manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had
thought of."[6]

>I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scriptu= re
(inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon<= BR> scripture,   I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the r= eference
in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was
ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of
witnesses.  (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't  possibly= be
responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.)<= BR> So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to
understanding  mysterious Book of Mormon passages?



A worthwhile question, Mick!  I hate it when people make me think befor= e noon.

The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to=20= Octavo Corporation.  My original text had the following footnote for th= e passage in question:

  Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price.


Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER TRANSLATION= ";  JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . ,  Robert J. Mat= thews applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the upcoming revis= ion of the Bible.  Matthews writes:

"May 15, 1829;  near Harmony, Pennsylvania.  While translating the= Book of Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious p= arts' had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi=20= 13, 14;  Mormon 8:33).  It follows that a gospel dispensation base= d upon the restoration of ancient things would include a restoration of at l= east some of these missing passages of scripture.
. . . . .

"The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true me= aning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the abili= ty to recognize faulty texts and correct them."  (Provo, Utah:  BY= U Press, c. 1975, p. 24)



In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage in Jo= seph's History makes sense.  Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting thi= s History (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had spread= an uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . .  d= arkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people." = This feels comfortable to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith as an all-pu= rpose prophet.  However, the chronology of events which Joseph Smith vo= lunteers here convinces me that his passage about scripture enlightenment wa= s intended specifically to describe his Book of Mormon dictation, not the re= vision of the Bible:


May 15, 1829:  The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic Priest= hood and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3),  "Immed= iately . . . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ."  1:= 73.



May 15 to late May, 1829:  The window of time available for the next ve= rse, the one in question:  "Our minds being now enlightened, we began t= o have the scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc.  1:74.=   Verses 74-5 make it clear that the setting for this scripture enlight= enment is Harmony, Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is beginning, and the H= ale Family protects them:

"74  . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstan= ces of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning t= o a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the [Harmon= y, PA] neighborhood.
"75  We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . .  And their in= tentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife's=20= father's family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing that I sho= uld be allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption;&nbs= p; and therefore offered and promised us protection . . ."

Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision.  Two month= s earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . . .

". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he= shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift." =20= (Book of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I have commande= d that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in=20= this;  for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." D= &C 5:4.)

Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until the Book= of Mormon translation is completed.  He dictates the Book of Mormon "w= ithout interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by the Isaac Hale=20= Family, who live across the road and some four hundred feet to the west.&nbs= p; Joseph and Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a clarification of the=20= errors of men, filling in doctrinal scripture gaps created when the wicked C= atholic Church removed plain and precious passages from the Bible.




End of May, first days of June, 1829:  Joseph & Oliver leave Harmon= y (where they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under dis= cussion here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to continue= the translation work in peace.



June, 1830:  The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of=20= pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms:

"The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation concern= ing Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by Joseph Smith in=20= June 1830.  The Prophet did not say what connection this revelation has= with the actual translation of the Bible or whether it was received while h= e was engaged in the translation.  However, the fact that it was includ= ed in each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of the New Translation sug= gests that there is a close historical association."  (Matthews, p.27)<= BR>


July, 1830:  According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the Bibl= e was probably in its early stages."


Rick Grunder
 - --part1_152.20b99061.2c2a005c_boundary-- - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:32:49 EDT From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven - --part1_192.1c5fe666.2c2a0161_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, malcolm@distinctivebooks.com writes: > >>>As far as I'm concerned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and > pedophilia, quite another. > > >>>Ken Sanders > > Hear, hear!! > > Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction. > > Malcolm - Distinctive Books > I had a spectaular Honors English teacher at Boise State College when I began college in 1966. He taught us never to associate things which are not necessarily associated, such as "clean and decent." He asked us how silly it would be if one were to say: "He was tall, dark, and Presbyterian." RG - --part1_192.1c5fe666.2c2a0161_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:12:04 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, malcolm@distinctivebooks.com writes:

>>>As far as I'm conce= rned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and
pedophilia, quite another.

>>>Ken Sanders

Hear, hear!!

Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction.

Malcolm - Distinctive Books




I had a spectaular Honors English teacher at Boise State College when I bega= n college in 1966.  He taught us never to associate things which are no= t necessarily associated, such as "clean and decent."  He asked us how=20= silly it would be if one were to say:

"He was tall, dark, and Presbyterian."

RG - --part1_192.1c5fe666.2c2a0161_boundary-- - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:35:16 EDT From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] E.B. Grandin's print shop - --part1_ab.2eab965d.2c2a01f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes: > The missionary tour guide was quite well > informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was presenting. > The presentation in the printing room is very educational and complicated. I > > had no idea that it takes a real artist to produce a book. > > One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather of the BofM > > took two years. As I thought this through is was like a light going off in > my head. This means that most of the books were not finished until the > saints had left for Ohio. It also makes sense that this is why Martin kept > going back to Palmyra after the move(along with selling property). I am > hoping Hugh and Rick, along with others, might comment more on this. Whew! I'm too tired to tackle this one today, after working on Mick's question. Anyone know about this? First time I've heard of it, or remember hearing of it, anyway. Rick - --part1_ab.2eab965d.2c2a01f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes:

The missionary tour guide was q= uite well
informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was presenting. The presentation in the printing room is very educational and complicated. I=
had no idea that it takes a real artist to produce a book.

One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather of the BofM=
took two years. As I thought this through is was like a light going off in <= BR> my head. This means that most of the books were not finished until the
saints had left for Ohio. It also makes sense that this is why Martin kept <= BR> going back to Palmyra after the move(along with selling property). I am
hoping Hugh and Rick, along with others, might comment more on this.


Whew!  I'm too tired to tackle this one today, after working on Mick's=20= question.  Anyone know about this?  First time I've heard of it, o= r remember hearing of it, anyway.

Rick - --part1_ab.2eab965d.2c2a01f4_boundary-- - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:46:02 EDT From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift - --part1_102.309e3351.2c2a047a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 marklick@callta.com writes: >http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/ >I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about this paragraph: >"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in April of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of."[6] >I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scripture (inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon scripture,=A0=A0 I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the referen= ce in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of witnesses.=A0 (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't=A0 possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.) So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to understanding=A0 mysterious Book of Mormon passages? A worthwhile question, Mick!=A0 I hate it when people make me think before=20 noon. The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to=20 Octavo Corporation.=A0 My original text had the following footnote for the=20 passage in question: =A0 Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price. Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER=20 TRANSLATION";=A0 JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . ,=A0 Robert J= . Matthews applied=20 this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the upcoming revision of the=20 Bible.=A0 Matthews writes: "May 15, 1829;=A0 near Harmony, Pennsylvania.=A0 While translating the Book=20= of=20 Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious parts' had= =20 been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi 13, 14;= =A0 Mormon=20 8:33).=A0 It follows that a gospel dispensation based upon the restoration o= f=20 ancient things would include a restoration of at least some of these missing= =20 passages of scripture. . . . . . "The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true=20 meaning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the abi= lity=20 to recognize faulty texts and correct them."=A0 (Provo, Utah:=A0 BYU Press,=20= c.=20 1975, p. 24) In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage in=20 Joseph's History makes sense.=A0 Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting this= =20 History (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had spread a= n=20 uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . .=A0 darkness= covered=20 the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people."=A0 This feels comfort= able=20 to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith as an all-purpose prophet.=A0 Howeve= r,=20 the chronology of events which Joseph Smith volunteers here convinces me tha= t=20 his passage about scripture enlightenment was intended specifically to descr= ibe=20 his Book of Mormon dictation, not the revision of the Bible: May 15, 1829:=A0 The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthoo= d=20 and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3),=A0 "Immediately .= . .=20 We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ."=A0 1:73. May 15 to late May, 1829:=A0 The window of time available for the next verse= ,=20 the one in question:=A0 "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have t= he=20 scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc.=A0 1:74.=A0 Verses 74-= 5 make=20 it clear that the setting for this scripture enlightenment is Harmony,=20 Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is beginning, and the Hale Family protects= them: "74=A0 . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances= of=20 having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning to a=20 spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the [Harmony, P= A]=20 neighborhood. "75=A0 We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . .=A0 And their intentio= ns of=20 mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife's father's=20 family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing that I should be al= lowed=20 to continue the work of translation without interruption;=A0 and therefore=20 offered and promised us protection . . ." Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision.=A0 Two months=20 earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . . . ". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he= =20 shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift."=A0 (Boo= k of=20 Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I have commanded that yo= u=20 should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this;=A0 fo= r I=20 will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." D&C 5:4.) Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until the Book= =20 of Mormon translation is completed.=A0 He dictates the Book of Mormon "witho= ut=20 interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by the Isaac Hale Family,= =20 who live across the road and some four hundred feet to the west.=A0 Joseph a= nd=20 Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a clarification of the errors of men,= =20 filling in doctrinal scripture gaps created when the wicked Catholic Church=20 removed plain and precious passages from the Bible. End of May, first days of June, 1829:=A0 Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony (wher= e=20 they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under discussion=20 here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to continue the=20 translation work in peace. June, 1830:=A0 The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of=20 pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms: "The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation=20 concerning Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by Joseph Sm= ith in=20 June 1830.=A0 The Prophet did not say what connection this revelation has wi= th the=20 actual translation of the Bible or whether it was received while he was=20 engaged in the translation.=A0 However, the fact that it was included in eac= h of the=20 three Old Testament manuscripts of the New Translation suggests that there i= s a=20 close historical association."=A0 (Matthews, p.27) July, 1830:=A0 According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the Bible w= as=20 probably in its early stages." Rick Grunder - --part1_102.309e3351.2c2a047a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, marklick@callta.com writes:

>http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/

>I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about thi= s
paragraph:

>"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in Apr= il
of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was put to<= BR> paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning=
and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a
manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had
thought of."[6]

>I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical scriptu= re
(inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of Mormon<= BR> scripture,=A0=A0 I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the referen= ce
in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and was
ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility of
witnesses.=A0 (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't=A0 possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his behalf.)<= BR> So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to
understanding=A0 mysterious Book of Mormon passages?



A worthwhile question, Mick!=A0 I hate it when people make me think before n= oon.

The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to=20= Octavo Corporation.=A0 My original text had the following footnote for the p= assage in question:

=A0 Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price.


Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER TRANSLATION= ";=A0 JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . ,=A0 Robert J. Matthews=20= applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the upcoming revision of= the Bible.=A0 Matthews writes:

"May 15, 1829;=A0 near Harmony, Pennsylvania.=A0 While translating the Book=20= of Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious parts'=20= had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi 13, 14= ;=A0 Mormon 8:33).=A0 It follows that a gospel dispensation based upon the r= estoration of ancient things would include a restoration of at least some of= these missing passages of scripture.
. . . . .

"The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true me= aning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the abili= ty to recognize faulty texts and correct them."=A0 (Provo, Utah:=A0 BYU Pres= s, c. 1975, p. 24)



In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage in Jo= seph's History makes sense.=A0 Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting this H= istory (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had spread an= uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . .=A0 darknes= s covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people."=A0 This fee= ls comfortable to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith as an all-purpose pro= phet.=A0 However, the chronology of events which Joseph Smith volunteers her= e convinces me that his passage about scripture enlightenment was intended s= pecifically to describe his Book of Mormon dictation, not the revision of th= e Bible:


May 15, 1829:=A0 The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthoo= d and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3),=A0 "Immediately= . . . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ."=A0 1:73.



May 15 to late May, 1829:=A0 The window of time available for the next verse= , the one in question:=A0 "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have= the scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc.=A0 1:74.=A0 Verse= s 74-5 make it clear that the setting for this scripture enlightenment is Ha= rmony, Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is beginning, and the Hale Family p= rotects them:

"74=A0 . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances= of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning to a= spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the [Harmony,=20= PA] neighborhood.
"75=A0 We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . .=A0 And their intentio= ns of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife's father= 's family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing that I should be= allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption;=A0 and th= erefore offered and promised us protection . . ."

Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision.=A0 Two months e= arlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . . .

". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he= shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift."=A0 (Bo= ok of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I have commanded t= hat you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in thi= s;=A0 for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished." D&C= 5:4.)

Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until the Book= of Mormon translation is completed.=A0 He dictates the Book of Mormon "with= out interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by the Isaac Hale Fam= ily, who live across the road and some four hundred feet to the west.=A0 Jos= eph and Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a clarification of the errors= of men, filling in doctrinal scripture gaps created when the wicked Catholi= c Church removed plain and precious passages from the Bible.




End of May, first days of June, 1829:=A0 Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony (= where they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under discus= sion here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to continue th= e translation work in peace.



June, 1830:=A0 The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of pre= - -retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms:

"The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation concern= ing Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by Joseph Smith in=20= June 1830.=A0 The Prophet did not say what connection this revelation has wi= th the actual translation of the Bible or whether it was received while he w= as engaged in the translation.=A0 However, the fact that it was included in=20= each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of the New Translation suggests=20= that there is a close historical association."=A0 (Matthews, p.27)



July, 1830:=A0 According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the Bible w= as probably in its early stages."


Rick Grunder

 - --part1_102.309e3351.2c2a047a_boundary-- - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:10:41 -0600 From: Ken Sanders Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven I don't think it's a distinction Krakaeur makes in his book. Many of the most violent offshoots of Mormonism of both the 19th and 20th Century are either not mentioned at all, or in passing, and I can't think of a single example of a non-violent Mormon fundamentalist group, such as the Ogden Kraut or Rulon Allred groups, to cite just two examples. It's hard to believe that the author was even aware of Dale Morgan's excellent bibliographies: A Bibilography of the Church of Jesus Christ, A Bibliography of the Churches of the Dispersion and A Bibliography of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite) all published in the 1940's. And there's the DUP booklet entitled Denominations that Base Their Beliefs on the teachings of Joseph Smith. Ken Sanders RickBook@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, > malcolm@distinctivebooks.com writes: > > >>>As far as I'm concerned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and > pedophilia, quite another. > > >>>Ken Sanders > > Hear, hear!! > > Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction. > > Malcolm - Distinctive Books > > > > > > I had a spectaular Honors English teacher at Boise State College when I > began college in 1966. He taught us never to associate things which are > not necessarily associated, such as "clean and decent." He asked us how > silly it would be if one were to say: > > "He was tall, dark, and Presbyterian." > > RG - -- Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ End of lds-bookshelf-digest V1 #965 ***********************************