From: owner-lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com (lds-bookshelf-digest) To: lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: lds-bookshelf-digest V1 #966 Reply-To: lds-bookshelf Sender: owner-lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-lds-bookshelf-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk lds-bookshelf-digest Friday, June 27 2003 Volume 01 : Number 966 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:50:27 -0600 From: "Roy Schmidt" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven Ken, I really enjoyed the article about you in Sunday's Trib. I hadn't thought about your resemblance to ol' Port, but I can see it now. Keep up the good work. Roy Schmidt - -----Original Message----- From: owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sanders Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 2:11 PM To: lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Under the Banner of Heaven I don't think it's a distinction Krakaeur makes in his book. Many of=20 the most violent offshoots of Mormonism of both the 19th and 20th=20 Century are either not mentioned at all, or in passing, and I can't=20 think of a single example of a non-violent Mormon fundamentalist group,=20 such as the Ogden Kraut or Rulon Allred groups, to cite just two=20 examples. It's hard to believe that the author was even aware of Dale Morgan's excellent bibliographies: A Bibilography of the Church of Jesus Christ, A Bibliography of the Churches of the Dispersion and A=20 Bibliography of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints=20 (Strangite) all published in the 1940's. And there's the DUP booklet=20 entitled Denominations that Base Their Beliefs on the teachings of=20 Joseph Smith. Ken Sanders RickBook@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 > malcolm@distinctivebooks.com writes: >=20 > >>>As far as I'm concerned, polygamy is one thing, incest, rape and > pedophilia, quite another. >=20 > >>>Ken Sanders >=20 > Hear, hear!! >=20 > Thanks Ken for making that most important distinction. >=20 > Malcolm - Distinctive Books >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > I had a spectaular Honors English teacher at Boise State College when I=20 > began college in 1966. He taught us never to associate things which are=20 > not necessarily associated, such as "clean and decent." He asked us how=20 > silly it would be if one were to say: >=20 > "He was tall, dark, and Presbyterian." >=20 > RG - --=20 Ken Sanders Ken Sanders Rare Books, ABAA 268 South 200 East Salt Lake City UT 84111 (801) 521-3819 Fax: (801) 521-2606 http://www.kensandersbooks.com ken@dreamgarden.com - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:44:26 -0500 From: "Lark and Mick Reasor" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33A80.A2ED6E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Now I have to do some thinking--and = sporadic study (thank goodness it's after noon). =20 Mick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickBook@aol.com=20 To: lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, = marklick@callta.com writes: >http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/about/ >I too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about = this paragraph: >"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a young schoolteacher, appeared in = April of the following year that the text of the actual Book of Mormon was = put to paper. "Our minds being now enlightened," Smith later recounted, "we = began to have the Scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true = meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us, in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of."[6] >I was always under the impression that this referred to biblical = scripture (inspired translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of = Mormon scripture, I even clicked on the footnote expecting to see the = reference in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something completely different and = was ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred to the possiblility = of witnesses. (Knowing "detail oriented" Rickbook couldn't possibly be responsible for the error I cursed his electronic publisher on his = behalf.) So what do you think? What evidence is there that this quote refers to understanding mysterious Book of Mormon passages? A worthwhile question, Mick! I hate it when people make me think = before noon. The footnote reference mistake was mine, in the final edited copy I = sent to Octavo Corporation. My original text had the following footnote = for the passage in question: Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of Great Price. Eager to present the broadest possible background for "A PLAINER = TRANSLATION"; JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . . . , Robert = J. Matthews applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History 1:74) to the = upcoming revision of the Bible. Matthews writes: "May 15, 1829; near Harmony, Pennsylvania. While translating the = Book of Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and = precious parts' had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was = compiled (1 Nephi 13, 14; Mormon 8:33). It follows that a gospel = dispensation based upon the restoration of ancient things would include = a restoration of at least some of these missing passages of scripture. . . . . . "The spiritual insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the = 'true meaning and intention' of the scriptures would also probably = include the ability to recognize faulty texts and correct them." = (Provo, Utah: BYU Press, c. 1975, p. 24) In the broad spirit of things, this general application of the passage = in Joseph's History makes sense. Oliver Cowdery's commentary footnoting = this History (in the Pearl of Great Price) reflects "that corruption had = spread an uncertainty over all forms and systems practiced among men . . = . darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the = people." This feels comfortable to a modern Mormon view of Joseph Smith = as an all-purpose prophet. However, the chronology of events which = Joseph Smith volunteers here convinces me that his passage about = scripture enlightenment was intended specifically to describe his Book = of Mormon dictation, not the revision of the Bible: May 15, 1829: The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic = Priesthood and the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3), = "Immediately . . . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . = ." 1:73. May 15 to late May, 1829: The window of time available for the next = verse, the one in question: "Our minds being now enlightened, we began = to have the scriptures laid open to our understanding . . ." etc. 1:74. = Verses 74-5 make it clear that the setting for this scripture = enlightenment is Harmony, Pennsylvania, where "persecution" is = beginning, and the Hale Family protects them: "74 . . . In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the = circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been = baptized, owning to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested = itself in the [Harmony, PA] neighborhood. "75 We had been threatened with being mobbed, . . . And their = intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my = wife's father's family (under Divine providence), who . . . were willing = that I should be allowed to continue the work of translation without = interruption; and therefore offered and promised us protection . . ." Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible revision. Two = months earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly that . = . . ". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him = that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other = gift." (Book of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . and I = have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose = is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it = is finished." D&C 5:4.) Joseph does not have permission or "gift" to revise the Bible until = the Book of Mormon translation is completed. He dictates the Book of = Mormon "without interruption," thanks to a temporary peace secured by = the Isaac Hale Family, who live across the road and some four hundred = feet to the west. Joseph and Oliver view the Book of Mormon text as a = clarification of the errors of men, filling in doctrinal scripture gaps = created when the wicked Catholic Church removed plain and precious = passages from the Bible. End of May, first days of June, 1829: Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony = (where they have already experienced the scripture enlightenment under = discussion here) and move to the Whitmer Farm in Fayette, New York, to = continue the translation work in peace. June, 1830: The earliest date which Matthews postulates for a sort of = pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most general terms: "The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that the revelation = concerning Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was received by = Joseph Smith in June 1830. The Prophet did not say what connection this = revelation has with the actual translation of the Bible or whether it = was received while he was engaged in the translation. However, the fact = that it was included in each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of = the New Translation suggests that there is a close historical = association." (Matthews, p.27) July, 1830: According to Matthews, p. 27, "The translation of the = Bible was probably in its early stages." Rick Grunder - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33A80.A2ED6E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  = Now I have=20 to do some thinking--and sporadic study (thank goodness it's after = noon). =20
Mick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickBook@aol.com=20
To: lds-bookshelf@lists.xmis= sion.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 = 2:46=20 PM
Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No = Other=20 Gift

In a message dated 6/23/2003 11:47:27 PM Eastern = Standard=20 Time, marklick@callta.com=20 = writes:

>http://www.octavo.com/collections/projects/smimrm/abou= t/

>I=20 too stumbled upon this essay a while back and had a question about=20 this
paragraph:

>"It was not until Oliver Cowdery, a = young=20 schoolteacher, appeared in April
of the following year that the = text of the=20 actual Book of Mormon was put to
paper. "Our minds being now = enlightened,"=20 Smith later recounted, "we began
to have the Scriptures laid open = to our=20 understandings, and the true meaning
and intention of their more = mysterious=20 passages revealed unto us, in a
manner which we never could attain = to=20 previously, nor ever before had
thought of."[6]

>I was = always=20 under the impression that this referred to biblical = scripture
(inspired=20 translation beginning in June 1830(?)) rather than Book of=20 Mormon
scripture,   I even clicked on the footnote = expecting to=20 see the reference
in Joseph Smith History, or maybe something = completely=20 different and was
ever so disappointed to see that note 6 referred = to the=20 possiblility of
witnesses.  (Knowing "detail oriented" = Rickbook=20 couldn't  possibly be
responsible for the error I cursed his=20 electronic publisher on his behalf.)
So what do you think? What = evidence is=20 there that this quote refers to
understanding  mysterious Book = of=20 Mormon passages?



A worthwhile question, Mick!  I = hate it=20 when people make me think before noon.

The footnote reference = mistake=20 was mine, in the final edited copy I sent to Octavo Corporation.  = My=20 original text had the following footnote for the passage in=20 question:

  Joseph Smith-History 1:74 in the Pearl of = Great=20 Price.


Eager to present the broadest possible background = for "A=20 PLAINER TRANSLATION";  JOSEPH SMITH'S TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE . = . .=20 ,  Robert J. Matthews applied this passage (Joseph Smith-History = 1:74) to=20 the upcoming revision of the Bible.  Matthews writes:

"May = 15,=20 1829;  near Harmony, Pennsylvania.  While translating the = Book of=20 Mormon in 1829, the Prophet learned that 'many plain and precious = parts' had=20 been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled (1 Nephi 13,=20 14;  Mormon 8:33).  It follows that a gospel dispensation = based upon=20 the restoration of ancient things would include a restoration of at = least some=20 of these missing passages of scripture.
. . . . .

"The = spiritual=20 insight which enabled Joseph Smith to understand the 'true meaning and = intention' of the scriptures would also probably include the ability = to=20 recognize faulty texts and correct them."  (Provo, Utah:  = BYU Press,=20 c. 1975, p. 24)



In the broad spirit of things, this = general=20 application of the passage in Joseph's History makes sense.  = Oliver=20 Cowdery's commentary footnoting this History (in the Pearl of Great = Price)=20 reflects "that corruption had spread an uncertainty over all forms and = systems=20 practiced among men . . .  darkness covered the earth and gross = darkness=20 the minds of the people."  This feels comfortable to a modern = Mormon view=20 of Joseph Smith as an all-purpose prophet.  However, the = chronology of=20 events which Joseph Smith volunteers here convinces me that his = passage about=20 scripture enlightenment was intended specifically to describe his Book = of=20 Mormon dictation, not the revision of the Bible:


May 15,=20 1829:  The date given for the restoration of the Aaronic = Priesthood and=20 the baptisms of Joseph and Oliver (JS-History 1:72-3),  = "Immediately . .=20 . We were filled with the Holy Ghost and rejoiced . . ." =20 1:73.



May 15 to late May, 1829:  The window of = time=20 available for the next verse, the one in question:  "Our minds = being now=20 enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our = understanding .=20 . ." etc.  1:74.  Verses 74-5 make it clear that the setting = for=20 this scripture enlightenment is Harmony, Pennsylvania, where = "persecution" is=20 beginning, and the Hale Family protects them:

"74  . . . = In the=20 meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having = received=20 the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owning to a spirit of = persecution=20 which had already manifested itself in the [Harmony, PA]=20 neighborhood.
"75  We had been threatened with being mobbed, . = .=20 .  And their intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by = the=20 influence of my wife's father's family (under Divine providence), who = . . .=20 were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of = translation=20 without interruption;  and therefore offered and promised us = protection .=20 . ."

Joseph is too busy at this time to begin his Bible = revision. =20 Two months earlier, in fact, he dictates a revelation stating plainly = that . .=20 .

". . . he has a gift to translate the book, and I have = commanded him=20 that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other=20 gift."  (Book of Commandments 4:2, later changed to read, ". . . = and I=20 have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my = purpose is=20 fulfilled in this;  for I will grant unto you no other gift until = it is=20 finished." D&C 5:4.)

Joseph does not have permission or = "gift" to=20 revise the Bible until the Book of Mormon translation is = completed.  He=20 dictates the Book of Mormon "without interruption," thanks to a = temporary=20 peace secured by the Isaac Hale Family, who live across the road and = some four=20 hundred feet to the west.  Joseph and Oliver view the Book of = Mormon text=20 as a clarification of the errors of men, filling in doctrinal = scripture gaps=20 created when the wicked Catholic Church removed plain and precious = passages=20 from the Bible.




End of May, first days of June, = 1829: =20 Joseph & Oliver leave Harmony (where they have already experienced = the=20 scripture enlightenment under discussion here) and move to the Whitmer = Farm in=20 Fayette, New York, to continue the translation work in=20 peace.



June, 1830:  The earliest date which = Matthews=20 postulates for a sort of pre-retranslation of the Bible in the most = general=20 terms:

"The manuscripts of the Bible translation verify that = the=20 revelation concerning Moses [Chapter 1, Pearl of Great Price] was = received by=20 Joseph Smith in June 1830.  The Prophet did not say what = connection this=20 revelation has with the actual translation of the Bible or whether it = was=20 received while he was engaged in the translation.  However, the = fact that=20 it was included in each of the three Old Testament manuscripts of the = New=20 Translation suggests that there is a close historical = association." =20 (Matthews, p.27)



July, 1830:  According to = Matthews, p.=20 27, "The translation of the Bible was probably in its early=20 stages."


Rick=20 Grunder

 - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33A80.A2ED6E40-- - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:46:01 -0400 From: "Hugh Stocks" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] E.B. Grandin's print shop On 24 Jun 2003 at 15:35, RickBook@aol.com stepped forward and proclaimed: > > In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rbssman@hotmail.com writes: > > The missionary tour guide was quite well > informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was > presenting. The presentation in the printing room is very > educational and complicated. I had no idea that it takes a real > artist to produce a book. > > One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather > of the BofM took two years. As I thought this through is was like > a light going off in my head. This means that most of the books > were not finished until the saints had left for Ohio. It also > makes sense that this is why Martin kept going back to Palmyra > after the move(along with selling property). I am hoping Hugh and > Rick, along with others, might comment more on this. > > > > Whew! I'm too tired to tackle this one today, after working on Mick's > question. Anyone know about this? First time I've heard of it, or > remember hearing of it, anyway. This is new to me, too. And frankly it doesn't make much sense. So does anyone have some documentation on this claim? I'd be VERY interested. Hugh > Rick - -- Hugh Stocks hstocks@fuse.net - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:45:28 -0500 From: "Edlund, Mark J" Subject: RE: [LDS-Bookshelf] Soft market Roy, Interesting analysis of the DB auction, although my experience with DB auctions is that few of the books are collectible, and so I am not sure an aggregate analysis reflects the collectible market. I think the general consensus of people I have spoken to is that the market for LDS books has definitely softened in the past several years. Whether or not the market is now "soft" is a bit more subjective. Personally, I don't think it is peculiar to the season, as it has been going on for a while now--although it may be worse in the summer. As for the retail market, I have no idea whatsoever. Mark - -----Original Message----- From: Roy Schmidt To: lds-bookshelf@lists.xmission.com Sent: 6/24/2003 12:30 PM Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Soft market It seems to me that the market for LDS books continues to be pretty soft. Not only are prices down, but fewer people seem to be buying. For instance, Deseret Book Auction currently has 726 LDS books listed. Of these, only 26 have at least one bid. Is this peculiar to the season? I know things have been overpriced in the recent past. Is the market settling down into reality? Is my observation true just for Deseret Book Auction? What about retail used book stores? How about ebay? Any thoughts? Roy Schmidt - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:38:55 EDT From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Ford Hears the News - --part1_182.1d3630ab.2c2dbf0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One hundred fifty-nine years ago this evening . . . "A short time before sun down, we departed on our return to Carthage. When we had proceeded two miles, we met two individuals, one of them a Mormon, who informed us, that the Smiths, had been assassinated in jail, about five or six o'clock of that day. The intelligence seemed to strike every one with a kind of dumbness. As to myself, it was perfectly astounding; and I anticipated the very worst consequences from it." - Illinois. Governor, 1842-1846 (Ford). . . . MESSAGE OF THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, in Relation to the Disturbances in Hancock County, December, 21, 1844. Springfield: Walters & Weber, Public Printers, 1844, p. 17. - --part1_182.1d3630ab.2c2dbf0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One hundred fifty-nine years ago this evening . . .

  "A short time before sun down, we departed on our return to Carthage.=   When we had proceeded two miles, we met two individuals, one of them=20= a Mormon, who informed us, that the Smiths, had been assassinated in jail, a= bout five or six o'clock of that day.  The intelligence seemed to strik= e every one with a kind of dumbness.  As to myself, it was perfectly as= tounding;  and I anticipated the very worst consequences from it."

     - Illinois. Governor, 1842-1846 (Ford).  . . .= MESSAGE OF THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, in Relation to the Distur= bances in Hancock County, December, 21, 1844.  Springfield: Walters &am= p; Weber, Public Printers, 1844, p. 17.
 - --part1_182.1d3630ab.2c2dbf0f_boundary-- - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:10:22 EDT From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: [LDS-Bookshelf] Update on 1830 BoM binding - --part1_41.30b45cb1.2c2e1ace_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes: > I was able to visit Palmyra for the first time this past week. It was a > great trip and quite an experience for me to see the places I have only read > > about. The printing shop is excellent. I can't get over how well done the > exhibit is, the "Palmyra Reflector" and the works of art by C.C.A. > Christensen. It is overwhelming. The missionary tour guide was quite well > informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was presenting. > The presentation in the printing room is very educational and complicated. I > > had no idea that it takes a real artist to produce a book. > > One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather of the BofM > > took two years. As I thought this through is was like a light going off in > my head. This means that most of the books were not finished until the > saints had left for Ohio. It also makes sense that this is why Martin kept > going back to Palmyra after the move(along with selling property). I am > hoping Hugh and Rick, along with others, might comment more on this. I found > > this web site on google. It is the best I have read and I wish I had read it > > before I had gone to Palmyra. Thanks Rick for your knowledge. > Having no such knowledge, I called Peter Crawley this afternoon. After commiserating about Chad's death, I brought up this topic, and have summarized what he said, below (Pete gave me permission to share this with LDS-Bookshelf). I must say that my own instincts from dealing with similar books published here in this Book of Mormon region confirm his opinion . . . An entry in Egbert B. Grandin's journal, 14 July 1831, records Martin Harris coming to Luther Howard's bindery shop (2nd floor of the Grandin building), to pick up some copies of the book. Don Enders, at the Church, who supplies information for the visitors' centers, interpreted this entry as suggesting that copies were bound up slowly over an extended period of time. Peter Crawley told Don that he did not agree with this interpretation. He feels that it was just as likely that when Grandin took a number of copies of the book on consignment in 1830 to sell (as evidenced by Grandin's ads in the newspapers), Grandin would have left the volumes upstairs for storage in Howard's shop (where they were bound) until they were sold. And we know that sales were not exactly a Harry Potter bonanza. It does not seem to make sense that Martin Harris would have sold his farm and paid off the $3,000 the previous April (1831), if the books had not yet been completed. And it would not seem likely that Grandin and Howard would delay the work for two years, presuming they had to finish the job before getting their money. The only instances I have encountered where large numbers of books were left unbound for extended periods were when a customer did not have the money to pay for all the binding work at once - something which did not apply in the Martin Harris/Egbert Grandin arrangement. RG - --part1_41.30b45cb1.2c2e1ace_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/23/2003 8:45:00 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes:

I was able to visit Palmyra for= the first time this past week. It was a
great trip and quite an experience for me to see the places I have only read=
about. The printing shop is excellent. I can't get over how well done the exhibit is, the "Palmyra Reflector" and the works of art by C.C.A.
Christensen. It is overwhelming. The missionary tour guide was quite well informed and I felt she was excited about the history she was presenting. The presentation in the printing room is very educational and complicated. I=
had no idea that it takes a real artist to produce a book.

One interesting piece of information was the covering in leather of the BofM=
took two years. As I thought this through is was like a light going off in <= BR> my head. This means that most of the books were not finished until the
saints had left for Ohio. It also makes sense that this is why Martin kept <= BR> going back to Palmyra after the move(along with selling property). I am
hoping Hugh and Rick, along with others, might comment more on this. I found=
this web site on google. It is the best I have read and I wish I had read it=
before I had gone to Palmyra. Thanks Rick for your knowledge.



Having no such knowledge, I called Peter Crawley this afternoon.  After= commiserating about Chad's death, I brought up this topic, and have summari= zed what he said, below (Pete gave me permission to share this with LDS-Book= shelf).  I must say that my own instincts from dealing with similar boo= ks published here in this Book of Mormon region confirm his opinion . . .
An entry in Egbert B. Grandin's journal, 14 July 1831, records Martin Harris= coming to Luther Howard's bindery shop (2nd floor of the Grandin building),= to pick up some copies of the book.  Don Enders, at the Church, who su= pplies information for the visitors' centers, interpreted this entry as sugg= esting that copies were bound up slowly over an extended period of time.

Peter Crawley told Don that he did not agree with this interpretation. = He feels that it was just as likely that when Grandin took a number of copi= es of the book on consignment in 1830 to sell (as evidenced by Grandin's ads= in the newspapers), Grandin would have left the volumes upstairs for storag= e in Howard's shop (where they were bound) until they were sold.  And w= e know that sales were not exactly a Harry Potter bonanza.

It does not seem to make sense that Martin Harris would have sold his farm a= nd paid off the $3,000 the previous April (1831), if the books had not yet b= een completed.  And it would not seem likely that Grandin and Howard wo= uld delay the work for two years, presuming they had to finish the job befor= e getting their money.

The only instances I have encountered where large numbers of books were left= unbound for extended periods were when a customer did not have the money to= pay for all the binding work at once - something which did not apply in the= Martin Harris/Egbert Grandin arrangement.

RG - --part1_41.30b45cb1.2c2e1ace_boundary-- - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:48:07 -0700 From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] Update on 1830 BoM binding Rick, Thank you for taking the time to ask Peter about this. To be accurate the missionary stated it was 22 months, not two years. I was being lazy in typing! Another question: The Kirtland edition, 1837, is always said to be between 3000-5000. I understand that there is some question because of different peoples diaries, letters. I wonder if the burning of the school house/printing shop is also a reason for the relative scarcity of this edition? Joe >Having no such knowledge, I called Peter Crawley this afternoon. After >commiserating about Chad's death, I brought up this topic, and have >summarized what >he said, below (Pete gave me permission to share this with LDS-Bookshelf). >I >must say that my own instincts from dealing with similar books published >here >in this Book of Mormon region confirm his opinion . . . > >An entry in Egbert B. Grandin's journal, 14 July 1831, records Martin >Harris >coming to Luther Howard's bindery shop (2nd floor of the Grandin building), >to >pick up some copies of the book. Don Enders, at the Church, who supplies >information for the visitors' centers, interpreted this entry as suggesting >that >copies were bound up slowly over an extended period of time. > >Peter Crawley told Don that he did not agree with this interpretation. He >feels that it was just as likely that when Grandin took a number of copies >of >the book on consignment in 1830 to sell (as evidenced by Grandin's ads in >the >newspapers), Grandin would have left the volumes upstairs for storage in >Howard's shop (where they were bound) until they were sold. And we know >that sales >were not exactly a Harry Potter bonanza. > >It does not seem to make sense that Martin Harris would have sold his farm >and paid off the $3,000 the previous April (1831), if the books had not yet >been >completed. And it would not seem likely that Grandin and Howard would >delay >the work for two years, presuming they had to finish the job before getting >their money. > >The only instances I have encountered where large numbers of books were >left >unbound for extended periods were when a customer did not have the money to >pay for all the binding work at once - something which did not apply in the >Martin Harris/Egbert Grandin arrangement. > >RG _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:00:46 -0700 From: "Joe Geisner" Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift Rick, Thanks for this explanation. It has been quite an experience to travel around to the historic sites and then learn of these events. As I stood on the hill Cumorah I reflected on the many visits the Smith made both in their treasure seeking and then for the gold plates. I was overwhelmed with emotion as I stood in the thick of the trees with the birds chirping and wind blowing. The comment by Oliver about their minds being opened makes me ponder Richard Bushmans idea about Joseph and Martin seeking out the "learned" to assist Joseph in learning how to translate. Joe >A worthwhile question, Mick! I hate it when people make me think before >noon. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:39:09 EDT From: RickBook@aol.com Subject: Re: [LDS-Bookshelf] No Other Gift - --part1_111.252a3f63.2c2e75ed_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/2003 8:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes: > As I stood on > the hill Cumorah I reflected on the many visits the Smith made both in their > > treasure seeking and then for the gold plates. I was overwhelmed with > emotion as I stood in the thick of the trees with the birds chirping and > wind blowing. I have been there many times, and understand your feelings. Last April, I stood there again with my teeth chattering from the cold, trying to look "cool" (pun intended) in thirty-degree weather while BBC interviewed me walking from the parking lot to the Moroni monument. Somehow, I managed to mention the Three Witnesses' names without slipping up, but chances are my hair was sticking up in the back, or my nose was running or something - we shall see! Now a vignette - one of those bizarre moments that we don't forget. Back in the 1980s, I stopped by the hill one day, and noticed a young man sitting on the step which circles the Moroni monument. He was engaged in deep thought, evidently troubled about something. He was smoking a cigarette. Have always wondered what that was about. RG - --part1_111.252a3f63.2c2e75ed_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/27/2003 8:01:16 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, rbssman@hotmail.com writes:

As I stood on
the hill Cumorah I reflected on the many visits the Smith made both in their=
treasure seeking and then for the gold plates. I was overwhelmed with
emotion as I stood in the thick of the trees with the birds chirping and wind blowing.



I have been there many times, and understand your feelings.  Last April= , I stood there again with my teeth chattering from the cold, trying to look= "cool" (pun intended) in thirty-degree weather while BBC interviewed me wal= king from the parking lot to the Moroni monument.  Somehow, I managed t= o mention the Three Witnesses' names without slipping up, but chances are my= hair was sticking up in the back, or my nose was running or something - we=20= shall see!

Now a vignette - one of those bizarre moments that we don't forget.  Ba= ck in the 1980s, I stopped by the hill one day, and noticed a young man sitt= ing on the step which circles the Moroni monument.  He was engaged in d= eep thought, evidently troubled about something.  He was smoking a ciga= rette.

Have always wondered what that was about.

RG - --part1_111.252a3f63.2c2e75ed_boundary-- - ---------------------------------------------------------- - - LDS-Bookshelf, information and discussion of LDS books - - To unsubscribe, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with - - "unsubscribe lds-bookshelf" (without quotes) in the message body. - - For assistance, mail to "lds-bookshelf-owner@lists.xmission.com" ------------------------------ End of lds-bookshelf-digest V1 #966 ***********************************