From: owner-orb-digest@lists.xmission.com (orb-digest) To: orb-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: orb-digest V2 #388 Reply-To: orb-digest Sender: owner-orb-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-orb-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes orb-digest Wednesday, November 22 2000 Volume 02 : Number 388 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:35:33 -0800 From: rachel Subject: (orb) reporting back from SF hey orbsters! just waking up and thought i'd pass on the word for those who are anticipating the good dr's arrival. it was a pretty interesting evening. i was most surprised to see Phil Legonidec doing sound for Juno Reactor. (last time I saw Phil he was performing with Andy.) but i guess the music industry is just as incestuous as any other, right? ;) before i lay down my remarks, let me just say that this was the most sober i've been for an LX dj gig, and i'm sure quite a few people will disagree with what i'm about to say, right SteveO? frankly, i was disappointed. i thought his selection of tracks was unoriginal and his djing skills not up to par. (i've also just come away from a Norman Cook dj date, and say what you will about him, but the man is one incredibly skilled dj.) i've seen LX spin 4 or 5 times, and i just felt he wasn't really on it last night - tracks were all over the place and the beats just kept starting and stopping, although this did seem to improve when he came back on after Juno. that said, he played 2 very interesting mixes of Once More - one real slow chunky one with heavy vocals i'd never heard, and one which i'd guess would be a vocal version of the Sasha & Digweed mix? (anyone?) whatever track followed was some incredible "dancient" number i'd never heard, and i'd love to know what that one was if anyone has any clues - Steve0? Seofon? Juno Reactor, OTOH, completely blew me away. as was previously stated, its 4 different drummers/percussionists with a German guy on everything else (including electric guitar at points). it was an amazing show and anyone still waffling should certainly check them out!! they played about 2 hours of really great psy trance, which slowed down to some nice chunky interludes, and did several a cappella drumming numbers as well! (complete with live chanting!!!). it was really quite fabulous - they blew me away! hopefully i caught LX on an off night, but the wonderful suprise of Juno Reactor being so energetic and fun to see definitely made up for it! =) rachel # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:11:51 -0500 From: "Flory Gonzalez" Subject: (orb) New Word I would like to introduce a new word that I often use to describe myself...use it as you see fit! ORBsessive Flory # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:45:43 -0900 (AKST) From: "James A. Crippen" Subject: RE: (orb) Two fat Belgians On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, The TieDyed Side of the Force wrote: > > > The same article by the way also sugests that LX's music should > > > be called Dubcore (they are obsessed in Mixmag naming genres of > > > dance music arent they?) > > > > What a silly name. I can't think of Orb as hardcore anything. 'Dubcore' > > indeed. It's ambient. Ambient with beats. Ambient dub, maybe? > > I'd call it "dancient". I like it! - -- James A. Crippen ,-./-. Lambda Unlimited Anchorage, Alaska | |/ | 61.2069 N Y=\f.(\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx)) | |\ | 149.766 W YF=F(YF) \_,-_/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:18:02 -0900 (AKST) From: "James A. Crippen" Subject: RE: (orb) Kinda sad but...... On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Howat, Simon wrote: > > > I just noticed that an anagram of Orbus Terrarum is Arm > > Trouser Rub..... > > Very evocative.....how about > > .....DOUBLEHEADER SERVANT WOULDN'T TRY > > for Adventures beyond the ultraworld - not as funny, but more surreal Cydonia: Acid Yon Pomme Fritz: Me Fritz Mop Blue Room: Boom Rule Little Fluffy Clouds: Cult Diffuse Fly Toll Cull Floyd Flute Fist (Fetus Lift?) Cute Idyll Fluff Lost Towers of Dub: Orb Fed Two Us Dub Wore Soft O.O.B.E: Icebox Dye Toe of Prune Alex Paterson: A Latex Person? A Salon Expert Atonal Per Sex So Anal Expert External Soap! Laser Axon Pet Solar Pax Teen Andy Hughes: An Edgy Hush Sandy He Hug Hash Dye Gnu Kris Weston: Ken Is Worst Swine Stork Worse Stink Network Sis Strewn is OK The Orb: Be Thor http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/ 'james - -- James A. Crippen ,-./-. Lambda Unlimited Anchorage, Alaska | |/ | 61.2069 N Y=\f.(\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx)) | |\ | 149.766 W YF=F(YF) \_,-_/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:20:42 -0800 From: Steve Shah Subject: Re: (orb) Two fat Belgians On Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 08:45:43AM -0900, James A. Crippen wrote: > > > What a silly name. I can't think of Orb as hardcore anything. 'Dubcore' > > > indeed. It's ambient. Ambient with beats. Ambient dub, maybe? Ambient dub, IMO. Some of live mixes are "dancient" since they tend to put more energetic sounds into their shows, but I'd consider their albums to be far more dubbish. Now if I could just get "Let's all Chant" out of my brain... - -Steve - -- ______________________________________________________________________________ Steve Shah (sshah@planetoid.org) | SysAdmin/Coder/Gabbernaut/DJ/Writer/Minister http://www.planetoid.org | We're not dropping out, we're infiltrating. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Life is best measured in beats per minute. How alive are you? # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:41:31 -0500 (EST) From: Ben Hoffman Subject: (orb) didge me out hey Seofon, contact me off-list, I need to know how to mic a didgeridoo... Ben in Space # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:57:48 -0900 (AKST) From: "James A. Crippen" Subject: Re: (orb) didge me out On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Ben Hoffman wrote: > hey Seofon, contact me off-list, I need to know how to mic a didgeridoo... Heck, I play one of those, let me know too! I've never been successful... 'james - -- James A. Crippen ,-./-. Lambda Unlimited Anchorage, Alaska | |/ | 61.2069 N Y=\f.(\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx)) | |\ | 149.766 W YF=F(YF) \_,-_/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:00:28 -0800 From: "Seofon / ATOI" Subject: (orb) Re: Space > I just found a CD of the Orb and KLF on eBay called "Space" and was >outbid >for it. Does anyone know where I might find an original of this recording? >I can't seem to find it anywhere around here. Please let me know. Also is >there somewhere this can be down loaded? I want an original but will take >a >copy for now. Thanks I have an original copy and am always glad to trade CD-R's or MD's. Check my trade list at http://www.a-toi.com/seofon/trading Apologies to anyone offended by this kind of thing ... but /Space/ is pretty seriously out of print, and I'll gladly send Jimmy or LX money in a box any day). I've also separated the tracks (on the official versions it's all one track) so if anyone wants that version let me know. >On this note, does any one have a review they could post? /Chill Out/ in space! - -=Seofon _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:02:08 -0700 From: "Stratton, Jeff" Subject: RE: (orb) didge me out mike it by placing it a box about the size of a (monitor box?) cutting a hole 2 inches bigger in diameter than that of the didg. > > > > > hey Seofon, contact me off-list, I need to know how to mic > a didgeridoo... > > Heck, I play one of those, let me know too! I've never been > successful... > > 'james > > # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:03:41 -0800 From: "Christjan Jordon" Subject: (orb) portland gig LX spun pretty much what sounded to me like an hour long little fluffy clouds for his first set... with tons of reggae mixed in... and a little bit of the tracks I've heard on cydonia... Also.. the dj right before LX was spinning that west coast happy stuff which made for a rough transition into his first set... Juno Reactor was decent... sounded exactly like what you hear on their cd's... the stage was way too small for them.. I saw them a couple of years ago on a big stage... and they would run and leap over one another during the songs... but they were good... the sign said LX would be spinning with them.. but he never did... For the second set... I can't remember what time he exactly went on... but he spun till past 4 in the morning... over 2 hours... lots of cydonia... blue room... really great... mixed in a lot of the russian astronaut stuff throughout... Oh this is interesting... they were returning money at the door to anyone who came thinking it was an Orb performance... since they did advertise it as such... And some people were shooting video of LX's whole set... don't know if they are list members though... - -xjan. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:15:48 -0600 From: John Moxness Subject: RE: (orb) portland gig Oh this is interesting... they were returning money at the door to anyone who came thinking it was an Orb performance... since they did advertise it as such... ===>so what did you do? And some people were shooting video of LX's whole set... don't know if they are list members though... ===>i sure hope it was a list member and i hope they got juno reactor too!! that said...i'd love to have a copy if production is up to par. if your list'ening please email me off the list. thanks john # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:23:36 -0800 From: "Scott McCoskery" Subject: (orb) Seattle LX/Juno show... Hello Orbsters, It's been about a year since I've posted -- hope everyone's doing well... I just thought I would add what I got out of the Seattle LX/Juno show last Sunday. It was at DV8 which is a pretty big club, but it's all ages; so needless to say the crowd was mostly little raver kids and late-teen/early twenty something computer geeks that didn't know who LX was and obviously knew of Juno Reactor from watching Mortal Kombat a thousand times (can you tell I wasn't pleased with the crowd?). LX's set started off fast and the young crowd loved it. There was definitely a reworking of Yungle in his set that makes the Cydonia v1.0 version sound tame (it was the highlight of his first set for me). He would use distorted LFC samples to segue between tracks that didn't mix so well and every time it would get a rise from the crowd. The second half of his opening set was all dub / reggae dub, centering around the reggae track that the main sample in Blue Room comes from (sorry, I couldn't seem to source this track). This half of LX's set quieted the crowd, and at this point LX had the bass turned up so high it was hard to breathe (I was about 10 feet from one stack of the 24 subs at DV8), and as I turned around to understand why, I could see that the yound crowd just didn't want to hear a bunch of dub (needless to say my herbally-impaired friends and I were eating it up!!). Then Ben Watkins came out on stage (to my surprise he was using a pair of those crutches that hook on your forearms -- I didn't know this about Ben). He gave LX a nod and fired up his laptop near the back of the stage (he had a laptop, a big mixing console, a couple of FX, and an electric guitar). There was a giant black tapestry behind the stage dawning the JR logo, and three sets of african drums and percussion and mic's. He started playing Jardin De Cecile on his laptop and LX left the stage. At this point the crowd went nuts, and the four drummers/vocalists came out on stage (is this Amompondo?) with their faces painted black and white and wearing traditional African attire. They pounded on their drums and chanted along with Ben's tracks, doing mostly Bible of Dreams tracks. I have to tell you guys, I thought they sounded horrible. I'm a big JR fan, but this show didn't do it for me. I was expecting to hear more of the beautiful sonic detail of Bible of Dreams and Shango -- instead the sound was rough and distorted (I even went to the back of the club just to make sure it wasn't because I was standing by the stage). The lead drummer-guy's mic didn't work very well at all -- the only time you could hear him was when they were chanting acapella, or when he aimed his voice just right at the mic, then it would come out piercing. Ben was pretty unexciting back behind his mixer -- all you really ever saw him do was pick a new track from his laptop and start it up. Ben didn't mix the songs together, and noone on stage was sure when a track was going to end so it would typically end with the drummers just stopping when they heard the music stop -- like when a band is practicing and someone says 'Hold It!' and everyone sort of stops. Sometimes Ben just sat there and smoked a cigarette. He also played the guitar on a few tracks -- it was heavily distorted and noisy, I didn't like it at all -- it didn't seem to fit the groove. I still love JR's albums and I think that Ben/JR is an amazing trance artist, but I thought they were unimpressive live, but maybe they just need to get a few shows in to tighten up their performance, and maybe it had alot to do with the bad sound -- overdriven bass (that would clip occasionally) and poor mic's. LX came on after JR for another hour and spun a solid set of danceable trance and DnB. It just killed me to think that there were so many people there that didn't even know who LX was. There were T-Shirts. They're black with the JR logo on the front, and this on the back (centered, in a white-sparkly ink): juno reactor amompondo lx - orb I kinda wish I drove to Portland to see them in another venue, but too late now... I will eagerly await other reviews, and I hope they sound much better for the rest of you. Peace, Scott NP: Peter Gabriel - 'Ovo: Millennium Show' # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:27:27 -0600 (CST) From: James Hill Subject: Re: (orb) Re: Space > I have an original copy and am always glad to trade CD-R's or MD's. Check > my trade list at http://www.a-toi.com/seofon/trading > Apologies to anyone offended by this kind of thing ... but /Space/ is pretty > seriously out of print, and I'll gladly send Jimmy or LX money in a box any > day). Actually, it was reissued not long ago. I bought a copy off of www.ab-cd.com about a month and a half ago and it's still listed there for about $32 # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:04:17 -0600 From: Don Gagen Subject: RE: (orb) Re: Space It's not a reissue. It's a high quality bootleg. I have the original and they ARE different. One of the most significant differences is the omission of the copyright information on the bootleg. It is identical to a bootleg that was released in 93 or 94, so I wouldn't be surprised if the same people did this one. "Actually, it was reissued not long ago. I bought a copy off of www.ab-cd.com about a month and a half ago and it's still listed there for about $32" # # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:27:01 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Christoph=20Kluxen?= Subject: (orb) Another Fine Day:Salvage Jieep, how is it going on? Another Fine Day : Salvage 1. Scaborough Fair 5.44 2.Twisted Standards 5.52 3.Cutting branches 7.20 4. Lost in space 4.51 5. Two Kalimbas and a synth 4.02 6. Urban Fox 5.00 7.In 5 6.36 8.Irish in China 5.43 9. Malcolm's Loop 8.11 Produced by Tom Green. No involvment from LX. There's a website : http://www.climatemusic.com (JC from Paris told us that) Got a copy on e-bay,it``s just a promo-cd,but already contains the whole CD,don``t know when it will be released official,it``s a beautiful combination between traditional and electronic music,great rythm drums, sometimes a jazzy piano (reminds me on Ray Bryant) and a very subtile organization of the electronic beats really integrated in the more traditional instrumentation. Some of the tracks are really excellent,sometimes its a bit the orb whobbeling in it,cant find the right word for it. Someone on the list said,that Juno reactor did blow away the orb on their new cd(shango), I don``t think so,as I said he breaks out at the last third of his track and I think that are the best 3 minutes of the whole record. Juno Reactor does something different thant the orb,it``s more trash and the orb is more into reconstruction of principles taken from the modern and the past times,they don`t use that schematic repetitive beats,oh what a word. But that``s just my opinion, Christoph from germany Now on: Talking heads - fear of music __________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de Gratis zum Millionär! - http://10millionenspiel.yahoo.de # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:45:57 -0900 (AKST) From: "James A. Crippen" Subject: (orb) Amateur remixes? Has anyone on the list done any mixes or remixes of Orb? Like DJ sets of Orb, remixes of individual songs, or the like? I'd be interested in hearing them... I've been thinking lately of mixing together some impossibly long versions of already long tracks like AHEGPBTRFTCOTU on live93, the 45m Blue Room, etc. They probably wouldn't fit on a CD, but as MP3s they'd be fun to turn on and zone out to for an hour or two. A 90m remix of BR would be neat to have on tape for those long drives... Just a thought, anyway. 'james - -- James A. Crippen ,-./-. Lambda Unlimited Anchorage, Alaska | |/ | 61.2069 N Y=\f.(\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx)) | |\ | 149.766 W YF=F(YF) \_,-_/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:46:30 -0900 (AKST) From: "James A. Crippen" Subject: Re: (orb) Amateur remixes? On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Simon Bennett wrote: > : Has anyone on the list done any mixes or remixes of Orb? Like DJ sets of > : Orb, remixes of individual songs, or the like? I'd be interested in > : hearing them... > > i did a crap version of 'A Huge Ever Growing Brain..' and i've done a few > four-bar versions of Blue Room. nothing i'd show to anyone else because > they're all crap, yes. sod awful. devoid of that sprawling playful feeling > you get with older Orb music. ah well. Did you do a tracking of it (MIDI, MOD) or actual audio (MP3, WAV)? > : I've been thinking lately of mixing together some impossibly long versions > : of already long tracks like AHEGPBTRFTCOTU on live93, the 45m Blue Room, > : etc. They probably wouldn't fit on a CD, but as MP3s they'd be fun to > : turn on and zone out to for an hour or two. A 90m remix of BR would be > : neat to have on tape for those long drives... > > i've been trying to sort out how to write music longer than ten minutes > while keeping things going. the Orb are one of the bands i'm studying to > try to absorb the technique and Zen of it, them and Brian Eno, and a fair > bit of dub, but mostly the Orb because i've got more of their music that > has this long and sustained quality. i like that sort of music, me, and i > like to be able to write what i like to listen to. :) Writing long music is something that has plagued classical composers for a long time as well. I don't mean that you should study music theory (which is a good idea in itself, though) but I think some answers can be found in studying the music of classical composers, especially large orchestral compositions. Many many classical composers have managed to write very long works. They've intensively studied variations, which are IMHO the most important thing in a long work. I play a lot of long improvisation, and can do thirty minute or hour long improvisations on one theme (not that everyone thinks it's wonderful :). The trick lies not in just restating the theme over and over but varying it slightly in one direction, then again in another, and then in some other direction, each of which is a distinct change in the music. In electronic music you often find thematic variation expressed in rhythm and texture pattern changes rather than in the more traditional tonal pattern changes. A great example of textural variation is how Orb manipulates voice samples in their music, bringing them in at different points in the rhythm cycle and occasionally using them as rhythmic instruments (like the LFC cumulonimbus mix on the Aubrey Mixes). In more traditional music this same effect would be achieved by varying the tonal character of the music, perhaps by using instruments of different timbre to restate the theme, or by transposing the theme into a different key signature. Rhythm changes take a bit more finesse, but when done well can produce a very pleasing effect (causing big grins in the audience -- always worth it). Rhythm changes are much, much, much more difficult to improvise as well. But for electronic music the most important thing to remember, at least for ambient, is not to be slaved to the beat. The switch back and forth from verse to chorus, whether lyrics exist or not, is a good example of rhythmic change. Listen to Orb's "Once More" off of Cydonia -- the first break section at about 01:20 and then the change at 01:37 is an example of a smooth transition from rhythm carried first by the drum track (before 01:20) then by the bass track combined with different rhythm (between 01:20 and 01:37) and then finally by only the bass track. This is a very short period change, but the same thing could be stretched out over a much longer period of time. One technique is passing the same essential rhythm between different patterns, entering the change section with one pattern, then overlapping with a different pattern and losing the first pattern. If you have three or four rhythm patterns which you shift between you can create an interesting feeling of cyclical change and return, something carried off very effectively in some of Tetsu Inoue's work, for instance. Remember that long music is going to have a hypnotic effect on the audience. It's very hard to maintain a person's total concentrated attention for longer than about five minutes -- any good teacher will know this. A good teacher changes the subject every five minutes or so to keep the class interested. Boring teachers lose students more quickly, animated teachers keep students for a longer period but eventually lose students as well unless the subject changes over time. The exact same principle holds in music -- this is why pop music hardly ever lasts longer than three minutes -- it's too boring! People with extensive musical education or innate musical ability dislike pop music because they sense the similarity from song to song and feel the continuity of musical idea from one to the next. This makes them bored. However with long music it's entirely appropriate to capitalize on the hypnotic effect of audience hypoattentiveness. The Orb does this very well, in my opinion. They play the same beat over and over for sixteen measures with minor variations in coloration on the surface, then shift to some other textural change, usually by changing instruments or voices. The shift brings the audience back in from their trip to wherever they were going during the repetetetetive period, maybe not totally, but just enough to shift them in another direction. Also remember that especially with hypnotic music you don't have to 'go anywhere' in particular. You don't need a driving theme or meaning to your music -- it just has to induce a somewhat altered state of conciousness. If you want it to be danceable you have the groove to worry about too, but even then you still don't have to have a major direction. Just go anywhere that the music wants to go, don't try to direct it. Honestly the best way to get a handle on how to make long music is just to improvise a lot. Play something until you're sick of it, then take it in some other completely unrelated direction and do that until you're sick of it. Then try somewhere else. Do that a lot and you'll get an idea for how long you can make a repetition last until the theme demands changing - -- the more complex the theme the more you can repetitively abuse it. Record your improvisational sessions and then examine them for good bits. Try putting the good bits together and see if you can elaborate on them. Then extend them out until they've gone as long as they can go, and change to the next one. Do that enough and you'll have all the pieces for a two hour piece of music. Imagine that, a whole set of just one song! When do you go on break? The other added benefit of improvising is that you learn how to make stuff in a live setting, which is much more rewarding than just playing prerecorded stuff. You also learn the valuable skill of getting the timings right the first time because you don't have a chance for a second try. That's not easy. Someday I hope to master it, but I haven't yet :). 'james - -- James A. Crippen ,-./-. Lambda Unlimited Anchorage, Alaska | |/ | 61.2069 N Y=\f.(\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx)) | |\ | 149.766 W YF=F(YF) \_,-_/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:01:11 -0900 (AKST) From: "James A. Crippen" Subject: Re: (orb) Amateur remixes? Hmm... I seem to have forgotten to give definitions. texture: the mix of sounds and rhythms that gives a piece of music its 'feel', dependent on both combinations of tone, timbre, and volume. a book I don't have with me at the moment gives a very precise definition that I wish I could remember :(. timbre: the sonic quality of an instrument. violins have a lot of additional noise added to the waveform they generate, whereas horns have a relatively pure waveform. the perturbations of a pure waveform depend on how that wave is generated, and those perturbations are the timbre. (pronounced 'tam-ber', not 'tim-ber'). tone: the frequency of a waveform that an instrument generates. usually symbolized by a 'note'. Sorry these aren't as exact as I'd like. It's what I can do from memory without any decent references at hand. - -- James A. Crippen ,-./-. Lambda Unlimited Anchorage, Alaska | |/ | 61.2069 N Y=\f.(\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx)) | |\ | 149.766 W YF=F(YF) \_,-_/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:37:01 +0800 (WST) From: Simon Bennett Subject: Re: (orb) Amateur remixes? this could turn out to be a very cool thread indeed. : > i did a crap version of 'A Huge Ever Growing Brain..' and i've done a few : > four-bar versions of Blue Room. nothing i'd show to anyone else because : > they're all crap, yes. sod awful. devoid of that sprawling playful feeling : > you get with older Orb music. ah well. : : Did you do a tracking of it (MIDI, MOD) or actual audio (MP3, WAV)? it was tracked, the only copy i have now is the taped version. : Writing long music is something that has plagued classical composers for a : long time as well. I don't mean that you should study music theory (which : is a good idea in itself, though) but I think some answers can be found in : studying the music of classical composers, especially large orchestral : compositions. yep. one day i might get around to writing something like a symphony (fast slow dance fast) or use the symphonic form and mesh that with electronic music somehow.. but the thing is that i noticed from actually sitting down and listening to the Orb's music in particular is that there's so much less variation, there are different techniques used to sustain the track. funnily enough, changing keys or even chords isn't often one of them. fancy that, a 40 minute song without even changing the root note of the chord (blue room from memory is Dmin, Dmin7..) some of the Orb's tricks for length include long introductory sequences (Blue Room's long mix floats around formlessly for about two and a half minutes before the rhythm comes in, and even then you still don't have a lot of structure going on until the melody-carrying pads arrive, 3:50 or so into the mix, you don't even get a kick drum until over 6 minutes after the song begins), dropping the mix out and arsing around with sound effects only to rebuild the music into a slightly different variation, subtle percussion builds, drop-in sound effects to keep the mix rolling.. works of dynamic art they are, seriously. if you ever want to be completely spun out, listen to Blue Room and watch how the instruments move out of the way to let one another through, how sometimes the sounds get cut off by the sample of the bloke clearing his throat, pay attention to the general dynamics of the song; it's fascinating and often quite funny. another spiffy long-form track is the 61-minute monster 'Thursday Afternoon' by Brian Eno. it sustains itself nicely with a relatively minimal palette of sounds, but what's even more interesting is this shimmering, never-still instrument which is always bubbling away at the base of the sound mix. very nice song. there's some dynamics in that but altogether it's a very even track, Eno himself called it 'holographic' meaning that if you took out 30 seconds of it then it would sound more or less like the whole thing. : Many many classical composers have managed to write very long works. : They've intensively studied variations, which are IMHO the most important : thing in a long work. yep. phrase, then shift it up a key, then play it again and change it halfway through, then play it backwards while standing on your head, then swap the bassline and the lead melody, then play the same melody to a subtituted set of chords (Am and Dm instead of C and G for instance). : Rhythm changes take a bit more finesse, but when done well can produce a : very pleasing effect (causing big grins in the audience -- always worth : it). Rhythm changes are much, much, much more difficult to improvise as : well. But for electronic music the most important thing to remember, at : least for ambient, is not to be slaved to the beat. not for too long at any rate. i like that the Orb does what they do with rhythm, always keeping it interesting and putting so much detail into it. just when you think it's gone as far as it can go, another bit slots itself in neatly complimenting what's already there. it's real tapestry stuff. : However with long music : it's entirely appropriate to capitalize on the hypnotic effect of audience : hypoattentiveness. The Orb does this very well, in my opinion. They play : the same beat over and over for sixteen measures with minor variations in : coloration on the surface, then shift to some other textural change, : usually by changing instruments or voices. or dropping in a sound effect, or rearranging the mix, but the sixteen-beat cells of music aren't cut off from one another, and sometimes they beats just disappear altogether.. : The shift brings the audience : back in from their trip to wherever they were going during the : repetetetetive period, maybe not totally, but just enough to shift them in : another direction. the Orb's really powerful stuff is easily analogous to a psychedelic experience in my opinion, examining the same concept over and over in different ways, turning it over, even how ideas will shuffle and merge and split in your head like independent organisms. fish in a bowl or something. : Also remember that especially with hypnotic music you don't have to 'go : anywhere' in particular. You don't need a driving theme or meaning to : your music -- it just has to induce a somewhat altered state of : conciousness. If you want it to be danceable you have the groove to worry : about too, but even then you still don't have to have a major direction. : Just go anywhere that the music wants to go, don't try to direct it. that requires a great deal of sensibility, to be able to do that. me, i'm working on it. i'm trying to hear it in other people's music, then i'll work on my own. : The other added benefit of improvising is that you learn how to make stuff : in a live setting, which is much more rewarding than just playing : prerecorded stuff. You also learn the valuable skill of getting the : timings right the first time because you don't have a chance for a second : try. That's not easy. Someday I hope to master it, but I haven't yet :). heh :) good luck. it helps immensely if you can play an instrument (which i don't, particularly, just strum-guitar). womble - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ womble womble@it.net.au http://home.it.net.au/~womble/ (and many more) quotes are for people with no self-perceived authority of their own to make a point in their words; life is not a university thesis. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:07:08 -0600 From: Lysergic Dream Subject: Re: (orb) Amateur remixes? as previously noted on the list, i did a 15 minute extended version of the tsunami one mix of LFC... it's available on the ftp site as an mp3 for those interested... strictly amateur as a favor to my sister. more to come, keep your ears open and watch your coat. lysergic At 12:45 PM 11/22/00 -0900, you wrote: > >Has anyone on the list done any mixes or remixes of Orb? Like DJ sets of >Orb, remixes of individual songs, or the like? I'd be interested in >hearing them... ************* Coming Soon ************* The Lysergic Dream - Cult of the Dying Streetlamp This fall/winter on Uncle Buzz Records Check out http://www.zombieproject.com/lysergic for brand new sound samples! # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:19:40 -0900 (AKST) From: "James A. Crippen" Subject: Re: (orb) Amateur remixes? On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Simon Bennett wrote: > this could turn out to be a very cool thread indeed. I thought so too. That's why I put the effort into the last response... :) [...] > it was tracked, the only copy i have now is the taped version. You might convert it to MP3 or the like and zap it to me, if you don't mind... How long is it? > : Writing long music is something that has plagued classical composers for a > : long time as well. I don't mean that you should study music theory (which > : is a good idea in itself, though) but I think some answers can be found in > : studying the music of classical composers, especially large orchestral > : compositions. > > yep. one day i might get around to writing something like a symphony (fast > slow dance fast) or use the symphonic form and mesh that with electronic > music somehow.. Oddly, I've thought of taking the fugal form and doing it using ambient instrumentation and at a very slow tempo. I like the idea of a slowed down mess of voice snippets providing an ostinato upon which a weird tapestry of birdcalls, warm pads, chimes, and other sonic oddities march out the steady, slow progression of fugal variation. I'm sure it's possible, but I think it will take a year of playing around with noises to find the perfect set. Writing it could take years. I also thought of ambiently orchestrating the Grateful Dead's "Dark Star" into something spaced out. It's already quite hypnotic, and I think with some manipulation I could add a danceable beat to it while still maintaining the slow, psychedelic wandering that the song is prone to do. but the thing is that i noticed from actually sitting down > and listening to the Orb's music in particular is that there's so much > less variation, there are different techniques used to sustain the track. > funnily enough, changing keys or even chords isn't often one of > them. fancy that, a 40 minute song without even changing the root note of > the chord (blue room from memory is Dmin, Dmin7..) Well, I think that the *theme* in many Orb pieces is not so much a melodic sequence or a rhythm, but the combination of several repetitive cycles of sound. By varying the position in time of the different sounds they create a variation in texture, although the rhythm may remain constant. > some of the Orb's tricks for length include long introductory sequences This is of supreme importance. For further inspiration listen to the Dead's "Dark Star" on "Live Dead". It takes maybe three or four minutes before the melody forms, and a few more minutes before any lyrics actually begin. There are longer versions of this song as well, and of a few others which they would draw out into half-hour masterpieces, like "Saint Stephen". > (Blue Room's long mix floats around formlessly for about two and a half > minutes before the rhythm comes in, and even then you still don't have a > lot of structure going on until the melody-carrying pads arrive, 3:50 or > so into the mix, you don't even get a kick drum until over 6 minutes after > the song begins), dropping the mix out and arsing around with sound > effects only to rebuild the music into a slightly different variation, Yes, this is an important technique in that it allows you to abandon the theme and build a new foundation upton which to reconstruct the original theme. It shows up a lot in classical music as well, especially in more dramatic works. It's a good technique to use after building up towards a climax that can't be resolved easily, or that you don't want to resolve. It leaves the listener hanging, begging for more, and makes them pay very close attention to the next few measures, which you can use to make an important musical point, like to state your theme variation, or a new rhythm, or suchlike. > subtle percussion builds, drop-in sound effects to keep the mix rolling.. > works of dynamic art they are, seriously. if you ever want to be > completely spun out, listen to Blue Room and watch how the instruments > move out of the way to let one another through, how sometimes the sounds > get cut off by the sample of the bloke clearing his throat, pay attention > to the general dynamics of the song; it's fascinating and often quite > funny. The Blue Room track from Live93 is what made me fall in love with the Orb back in 1994 or 1995. Since then I've been permanently hooked. I admit that the first time I heard the long version of Blue Room I nearly wet myself. It's fantastic, and there's no way to describe the incredible musical games that they play in it. There's only one spot that I'm uncomfortable with (can't remember where it is) where it sounds as though two songs have been butt-spliced together with no continuous feeling between them. But I've learned to appreciate even that. > another spiffy long-form track is the 61-minute monster 'Thursday > Afternoon' by Brian Eno. it sustains itself nicely with a relatively > minimal palette of sounds, but what's even more interesting is this > shimmering, never-still instrument which is always bubbling away at the > base of the sound mix. very nice song. there's some dynamics in that but > altogether it's a very even track, Eno himself called it 'holographic' > meaning that if you took out 30 seconds of it then it would sound more or > less like the whole thing. What album is this available on? I'd like to get a copy. > : Many many classical composers have managed to write very long works. > : They've intensively studied variations, which are IMHO the most important > : thing in a long work. > > yep. phrase, then shift it up a key, then play it again and change it > halfway through, then play it backwards while standing on your head, > then swap the bassline and the lead melody, then play the same melody to a > subtituted set of chords (Am and Dm instead of C and G for instance). If you want the most amount of variation while still remaining true to the actual theme there's no better example than J.S. Bach's "The Art of the Fugue" (oder "Die Kunst Der Fuge" in Deutsche). A particularly good recording of this can be had from Philips Classics Productions paired on a 2CD set with "Musical Offering" ("Musikalisches Opfer"), prepared by Sir Neville Marriner and Andrew Davis at the Academy of St Martin in the Fields for 2 violins, viola, cello, violone, 2 oboes, cor anglais, bassoon, organ, and 2 harpsichords. The instrumental choices are important in an arrangement of this piece because Bach didn't write it for anything in particular, and it takes some work to get different instruments put together well enough to keep them from stepping on each other. Contrapunctus XI is really neat -- all three subjects of VIII including the main theme of the collection are inverted, reordered, and combined to make a four-part fugue. There are also two mirror fugues which have two versions, the second version an exact mirror image of the first, where each line is inverted so the notes rise where they originally fell, etc. Another neat bit is that the second voice entering the canon "per augmentationem in contrario motu" repeats the the first, but instead it's upside down and in half time (doubly slow). At the midpoint the voices exchange roles. You can't tell any of this without the score, though, no human can actually pick all this out. I heartily recommend this piece to anyone who has any musical inclination whatsoever. There's no substitute for hearing four or five different instruments all playing the same thing slightly offset from one another and in different directions, but done so beautifully and cleanly that if you don't pay attention to one particular voice but take them all in at once it comes together into a beautiful, stunning piece of very emotionally powerful music. If you listen to one particular instrument you can sometimes catch where it picks up a different thread of the music and goes somewhere else, but suddenly you realize that some other instrument picked up where the other one left off. Then you get lost. It's really neat. Listening to it is both rewarding and challenging, but at the same time you can ignore any particular voice and take in the whole soundscape. The most impressive thing about this is that it's only being done on classical instruments. I'd like to arrange it for electronic instruments, where I can control the exact timbre of any instrument and make them mesh seamlessly into each other. That'd be fun. Probably get a music degree for doing it, too :). > : Rhythm changes take a bit more finesse, but when done well can > produce a : very pleasing effect (causing big grins in the audience -- > always worth : it). Rhythm changes are much, much, much more > difficult to improvise as : well. But for electronic music the most > important thing to remember, at : least for ambient, is not to be > slaved to the beat. > > not for too long at any rate. i like that the Orb does what they do with > rhythm, always keeping it interesting and putting so much detail into > it. just when you think it's gone as far as it can go, another bit slots > itself in neatly complimenting what's already there. it's real tapestry > stuff. Oh yeah, that's exactly why I like them. The thing that always astonishes me, especially about their live work, is how much *stuff* is actually going on. There's just so many different voices and noises that you can't even take it all in at once. It's something to get lost in. > : However with long music > : it's entirely appropriate to capitalize on the hypnotic effect of audience > : hypoattentiveness. The Orb does this very well, in my opinion. They play > : the same beat over and over for sixteen measures with minor variations in > : coloration on the surface, then shift to some other textural change, > : usually by changing instruments or voices. > > or dropping in a sound effect, or rearranging the mix, but the > sixteen-beat cells of music aren't cut off from one another, and sometimes > they beats just disappear altogether.. The beats aren't always necessary, even for dancing. I've found that I can dance to anything at all, even weird stuff like traditional Japanese music. You have to think more about what you're doing, and it takes longer to get over your self-conciousness and get lost in the music, but you can always get there with anything. I laugh at people who say you can't dance to ambient. They've obviously never tried... :) > : The shift brings the audience > : back in from their trip to wherever they were going during the > : repetetetetive period, maybe not totally, but just enough to shift them in > : another direction. > > the Orb's really powerful stuff is easily analogous to a psychedelic > experience in my opinion, examining the same concept over and over in > different ways, turning it over, even how ideas will shuffle and merge and > split in your head like independent organisms. fish in a bowl or > something. Indeed! Quite true. Lots of looking at the same thing from many different perspectives. And sometimes getting distracted by one particular aspect of what you're looking at and then going off in a totally different direction looking at something else. And my personal favorite, getting lost in the experience of thinking about looking at something, and then thinking about thinking about thinking.... > : Also remember that especially with hypnotic music you don't have to 'go > : anywhere' in particular. You don't need a driving theme or meaning to > : your music -- it just has to induce a somewhat altered state of > : conciousness. If you want it to be danceable you have the groove to worry > : about too, but even then you still don't have to have a major direction. > : Just go anywhere that the music wants to go, don't try to direct it. > > that requires a great deal of sensibility, to be able to do that. me, i'm > working on it. i'm trying to hear it in other people's music, then i'll > work on my own. Dancing helps get the same feeling. When you dance and learn to not think about your dancing but just do whatever your body wants to do, you're letting the music lead you into your dance. This is the same thing with making music, whether composing it or playing it or improvising. You learn to not impose your conscious will on the music, but instead let the music influence your unconscious and then let that control what you do, putting your conscious mind in the back seat where it can watch. It's the exact same feeling from dancing to someone else's music or making your own. Learning the ability to let go is the most important thing you can learn about anything in life, anyway, IMHO. > : The other added benefit of improvising is that you learn how to make > stuff : in a live setting, which is much more rewarding than just playing > : prerecorded stuff. You also learn the valuable skill of getting the : > timings right the first time because you don't have a chance for a second > : try. That's not easy. Someday I hope to master it, but I haven't yet > :). > > heh :) good luck. it helps immensely if you can play an instrument (which > i don't, particularly, just strum-guitar). You can always learn to play electronic instruments live too. Anything that has knobs and switches can be played to some extent. Even a computer can, you just have to stretch the limits of the programs you use. I've abused the hell out of XMMS, my MP3 player for instance. It's obviously meant to just play music, but I occasionally will play with the jump and skip back and forth a few seconds in a song rapidly, using the different beats of the song as my instrument and mixing them together in a completely different form. It's like scratching but more discrete, with jumps from one place to another in the music and back rather than speeding up and slowing down the same sound. Obviously this program wasn't made for such use, and you can tell because it only lets you jump back and forth in five second increments from exactly where you are, so getting the timing right is a trick. But you can stretch boundaries in anything. Sorry I'm so verbose, I've had too much caffeine! :D 'james - -- James A. Crippen ,-./-. Lambda Unlimited Anchorage, Alaska | |/ | 61.2069 N Y=\f.(\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx)) | |\ | 149.766 W YF=F(YF) \_,-_/ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ End of orb-digest V2 #388 *************************