From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #361 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Friday, June 30 2000 Volume 02 : Number 361 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 22:47:35 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Self Defense (fwd) On Jun 28, Bruce Chesley wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This is all great advice except for one obvious flaw. At no time does Pat Malone advise women to learn to use handguns for personal self defense. Bruce Chesley Truth is a terrible cross to bear. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered.". Thomas Paine Treason for $$$: ccrkba, jpfo, leaa, nra, saf. From: "M.O.M." Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:04:55 -0600 From: Oliver G. Wiley III To: Kathleen Gennaro Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 1:51 AM Kathleen, This was sent to me by Col. Jim Mutter retired and his wife Lt. Gen. Carol Mutter retired worthwhile information to pass on and follow. Semper Fidelis, Oliver I am creating this message for those people in my life who I love and care for, and I hope you all take it very seriously. Last night a friend of my sister attended a personal safety workshop, and it jolted me. It was given by an amazing man, Pat Malone, who has been a bodyguard for famous figures like Farrah Fawcett and Sylvester Stallone. He works for the FBI, and teaches police officers and Navy SEALS hand to hand combat. This man has seen it all, and knows a lot. He focused his teachings to us on HOW TO AVOID BEING THE VICTIM OF A VIOLENT CRIME. He gave us some statistics about how much the occurrences of random violence have escalated over the recent years, and it's terrible. Something like 99% of us will be exposed, a victim of a violent crime. Here are some of the most important points that she got out of his presentation: 1. The three reasons women are easy targets for random acts of violence are: a. Lack of awareness (you MUST know where you are & what's going on around you). b. Body language (keep your head up, swing your arms, stand straight up). c. Wrong place, wrong time (DON'T be walking alone in an alley, or driving in a bad neighborhood at night) 2. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc, and just sit (doing their checkbook, or making a list, etc). DONT DO THIS ! The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in the passenger side, put a gun to your head, and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE. 3. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage: a. Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor, and in the back seat. Check under the car as well. b. If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most attackers pull the victims into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars. c. Look at the car parked on the drivers side of your vehicle, and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out. IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. 4. Always take the elevator instead of the stairs. (Stairwells are horrible places to be alone.) a. Do not get on an elevator if there is a weirdo already on there (of course bad men don't always look bad). b. Do not stand back in the corners of the elevator, be near the front, by the doors, ready to get off or on. c. If you get on the elevator on the 25th floor, and the Boogie Man gets on at the 22nd, get off when he gets on. 5. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS run ! a. POLICE only make 4 of 10 shots when they are in range of 3-9 feet. This is due to stress. b. The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times. And even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN ! 6. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP IT, it may get you raped, or killed. a. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good looking, well-educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked "for help" into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim. b. Pat Malone told us the story of his daughter, who came out of the mall and was walking to her car when she noticed 2 older ladies in front of her. Then she saw a police car come towards her with 2 cops, and they said hello. She also noticed that all 8 handicap spots in the area were empty. As she neared her car she saw a man a few rows over calling to her, for help. He wanted her to close his passenger side door. He was sitting in the drivers side, and said he was handicapped. He continued calling, until she turned and headed back to the mall, and then he began cursing at her. She wondered why he didn't ask the 2 older ladies, or the policeman for help, and why he was not parked in any of the empty handicap spots. As she got back to the mall, two male friends of hers were exiting, and as she told them the story, and turned to point at the car, a male was getting out of the back seat into the front, and the car sped away. DON'T GET CAUGHT IN THIS TRAP. 7. Tips to saving your life, if you have gotten into a violent situation: a. REACT IMMEDIATELY: If he abducts you in a parking lot, and is taking you to an abandoned area, DON'T LET HIM GET YOU TO THAT AREA. 1. If you are driving, react immediately in the situation, and crash your car while still going 5 MPH. 2. If he's driving, find the right time, and stick your fingers in his eyes. He must watch the road, so choose an unsuspecting time and gouge him. It is your ONLY defense. While he is in shock, GET OUT. This sounds gross, but the alternative is your fault if you do not act. b. RESIST: Don't go along with him: run, if you are able to scream, you DO NOT want to get to crime scene # 2. c. DON'T EVER GIVE UP ! 8. Always keep your distance when walking past strangers on the street or in dark areas. 9. GET A CELL PHONE. There are packages for $19.95 a month that allow you to program only 911 into the dialing out program (this is for parents who say it is too expensive for their kids to have a cell phone.) 10. BREAK DOWNS: (avoid this by ALWAYS keeping your car in good working order). a. If your car breaks down: you better have a cell phone to call for help,and lock your doors. b. Keep a blanket, and a pair of warm clothes and boots, and a flashlight in your car always for emergencies. c. If you don't have a cell phone: 1. And it's noon on a business day, you MAY want to put your hazards on and walk to safety. 2. And it's 2 a.m.: put on your warm clothes, and walk to a lighted area. a. You are a perfect target if you are sitting in your car broken down in. Predators search the highways for easy targets like you. 3. And you're on a desolate road: walk away from the car in your warm clothes and go to some bushes, or some area AWAY from your vehicle. It will be cold, and uncomfortable, but you DO NOT want to stay in your car, and there are no psychic boogiemen waiting in the bushes who knew you were going to break down. 11. Physical defenses that we can use against the violent predator: a. The eyes are the most vulnerable part of the body. Poke him there, and you have (possibly) your only window of opportunity. b. The neck is also a vulnerable spot, but you MUST know where to grip, AND HAVE THE STRENGTH to cut off his breath. c. The last place is the KNEES. Everyone's knees are very vulnerable, and a swift kick here will take anyone down. d. A cautionary note about these things is that if you do not do these things right the first time, you are a in trouble, because it will only anger the individual, and that anger will be TAKEN OUT ON YOU. I'm not saying don't attempt them (it may be your only hope), but be forceful when you do. 12. If you are walking alone in the dark (which you shouldn't be) and you find him following / chasing you: a. Scream "FIRE!", and not "help". People don't want to get involved when people yell "help", but "fire" draws attention because people are nosy. b. RUN ! c. Find an obstacle, such as a parked car, and run around it, like ring around the rosie. 1. This may sound silly, but over the years, 5 women have told Pat Malone that this SAVED THEIR LIVES. 2. Your last hope is getting under the car. Once you are under there, there are tons of things to hold on to, and he will not be able to get you out, and will not come under for you (most likely). Usually they give up by this point. The catch here is that YOU MUST PRACTICE GETTING UNDER THE CAR. You must have a plan (he will have one); know if you will be going on your back, front, from the side or back of the car. It must be practiced. 13. Never let yourself or anyone that you know be a "closer" in any type of business (bar, store, restaurant, gas station). Pat knew Danielle, who was the girl from Chesterland that just died from being shot point-blank by some kids while she was closing at the local gas station. He talked with her the night before she died, and asked whether it ever scared her to close alone. She said yes, but said "I'll be alright, Pat, I'll be alright." She wasn't. I didn't mean to scare you with any of this, but honestly, hope it did. It should. Our world is not as safe as we pretend that it is, and living in our fantasy worlds WILL get us in trouble, sooner or later. "It won't happen to me" doesn't cut it, and is a bogus expectation anyway. Pat Malone said again and again that the women who die EVERY MINUTE from violent crimes expected to go to bed tonight, and get up tomorrow, and do it all over again, and again, and again. No one expects it, but we must be prepared and aware so that we HAVE A PLAN. I would encourage you to pass this on to all women, not just your friends and family, but everybody. We all need to hear it - -- **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U. S. C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for nonprofit research and educational purposes only. [Ref. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ] [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 18:56:10 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: PATRIOT: Movie Critics Swamp the Swamp Fox (fwd) On Jun 29, Josephine Lindsay Bass wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] My gfs - McCANTS - STANDARD - HODGES - GOTEA fought with Marion along with most all of their brothers and cousins. there is some stuff in the movie that is derogatory to Gen Marion and not true. be sure and read this from the Claremont Institute. josie love, mama >From: precepts@claremont.org >To: jbass@digital.net >Subject: Claremont Institute Precepts: Movie Critics Swamp the Swamp Fox >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:51:21 -0700 >X-Mailer: Allaire ColdFusion Application Server > > >The Claremont Institute--PRECEPTS| | June 28, 2000 >Visit | | No. 231 > >Movie Critics Swamp the Swamp Fox >By Thomas L. Krannawitter > >Mel Gibson's "The Patriot" opens in theaters across America >today. Gibson's character, Benjamin Martin, is modeled >partly on Francis Marion, the legendary "Swamp Fox" of >South Carolina. > >There are two things about Marion that offend the >sensibilities of modern audiences: The first is that he was >a slaveholder. The second is that he is now accused of >committing horrid atrocities against the Cherokee. > >The first charge, at least, is grounded in real history. >Like many others during the Founding period, Marion did own >slaves. More importantly however, is that also like these >other men, Marion risked life and limb to found the first >country in the history of the world on the principles of >equal natural rights, government by consent, and the rule >of law. Abraham Lincoln described this generation as "men >of iron." > >The charge of hunting down Indians for sport, now being >circulated in the British press, appears to be something >contrived. In a letter to a friend written during the >Cherokee wars, Marion noted that some of the soldiers >enjoyed the "cruel work" of burning down Cherokee >villages, "laughing heartily at the curling flames." But >Marion thought such behavior unnecessary and unjust, and >wrote that "we surely need not grudge [them] such miserable >habitations." And when it came to chopping down Cherokee >crops, Marion records that he "could scarcely refrain from >tears." > >Marion and his militia -- a ragtag band of white and black >soldiers known as "the Irregulars" -- kept the Revolution >alive in South Carolina in the face of the greatest army >then assembled on the earth. There exists a popular >anecdote of Marion which captures wonderfully how resolute >these great men were: Seeking an exchange of prisoners, a >British officer went to negotiate terms with Marion. The >British officer was surprised and somewhat taken aback by >the dreadful condition of Marion and his troops. They were >working without pay, clothed in rags, and living in the >middle of swampland. At the invitation of Marion, the >British officer stayed to dine with Marion and some of his >men. To the disgust and amazement of the officer, the menu >consisted of nothing but sweet potatoes and water! After >returning to his own troops and describing the awful >conditions he witnessed, the officer remarked that the >Americans were suffering all this misery for the cause of >liberty. "What chance have we against such men!" he >exclaimed to his British comrades. > >In earlier times, Americans revered the name of Marion. No >doubt this was partly due to the romantic legend created by >biographer Parson Weems in the early nineteenth century. >Like the cherry tree myth of Washington, Weems sought to >popularize the courage, honor, justice and patriotism of >this great soldier. And his fellow Americans thought the >name and memory of Marion worth preserving as well. It is >no coincidence that today one finds across the country >streets, parks, towns, and counties bearing the >name "Marion." > >Of course, the Americans who named these things were of a >different stock than those today who think multiculturalism >a virtue, and patriotism a vice. > >Like the great general of the American Revolution, George >Washington, Marion was successful not because he won every >battle, but because he did effectively the one thing the >Americans had to do to win the war: He kept an army >together and refused to quit. This spirit of perseverance >is one of the pillars upon which America was built. This >manliness -- a word little used today -- was the reason >patriotic Americans made flags that bore the legend, "Don't >Tread on Me." > >America's Founders believed freedom required limited >government. But limited government, and therefore freedom, >required many things from the people. It demanded sobriety, >industriousness, self-assertion, and self-restraint. It >required vigilance. As James Madison observed in Federalist >55, self-government "presupposes the existence of these >qualities in a higher degree than any other form." The >story of Francis Marion provides a vivid example of the >kind of virtues Americans must cultivate if we intend to >remain free. > >And speaking of cultivating virtue, we are happy to report >the Supreme Court today upheld the right of the Boy Scouts >to determine their own membership standards. For more >information about that case, go to >http://www.claremont.org/publications/bsavictorypr000628.cfm >or visit our home page at http://www.claremont.org. > >Thomas L. Krannawitter is the Claremont Institute's >Director of Academic Programs. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Copyright (c) 2000 The Claremont Institute > >To subscribe to Precepts, go to: http://www.claremont.org/1_precepts.cfm , >or e-mail us at info@claremont.org . >To be removed from this list, go to : >http://www.claremont.org/remove_public.cfm , or e-mail us at >info@claremont.org . >For general correspondence or additional information about the Claremont >Institute, e-mail : info@claremont.org , or visit our website at : >http://www.claremont.org . >Changing your e-mail address? Please let us know at : info@claremont.org . >For press inquiries, contact Nazalee Topalian at topalian@msn.com or (202) >265-9010 or Tim Caspar at tcaspar@claremont.org or (909) 621-6825. > >The mission of the Claremont Institute for the Study of Statesmanship >and Political Philosophy is to restore the principles of the American >Founding to their rightful, preeminent authority in our national life. > >The Claremont Institute | 250 West First Street | Suite 330 | Claremont, >CA 91711 | Phone (909) 621-6825 | Fax (909) 626-8724 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 21:57:36 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: The Patriot, not just about the American Revolution] (fwd) On Jun 30, Odell Harwell wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Subject: The Patriot, not just about the American Revolution Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:30:47 -0500 From: odellh@juno.com To: hirider@wt.net Freedom: "The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance, which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime----and the punishment of his guilt." John Philpot Curran (1750-1817) - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Mark A. Smith" The Patriot_ not just about the American Revolution http://www.spe.sony.com/movies/thepatriot/ Review by Jon Roland The movie "The Patriot" starring Mel Gibson, which opened across the United States on June 28, 2000, is the story of an epic struggle between good and evil, but although the producers did well at re-enacting the setting of the American War for Independence, it is really an allegory of our own times, with some pointed references to recent events. Benjamin Martin, played by Mel Gibson, is a composite of various Patriots: Colonel Daniel Morgan, who fought the brutal Colonel Banastre Tarleton and Lord General Charles Cornwallis at the Battle of Cowpens; Francis Marion, the "Swamp Fox," a guerrilla fighter from South Carolina's wetlands; Elijah Clark; Thomas Sumter; and Andrew Pickens, all renowned freedom fighters. The character most resembles Francis Marion, who was commissioned a Captain in the Revolutionary Army and was later promoted to Major, Lieutenant Colonel and finally Brigadier General. His early military experience was fighting against the Cherokee Indians. His heroism and military skills consisted mainly of commanding militia units in guerrilla tactics, taking advantage of forests and swamps for cover and evasion. He is credited with a daring rescue of American troops surrounded by British forces at Parkers Ferry, South Carolina. After the war, Marion served three terms as a member of the South Carolina Senate. The central character of this epic is not just Benjamin Martin, but the Militia. The moral struggle of Martin is the struggle of the Militia, at first conscious of its domestic duties, and reluctant to risk those under its protection with a forceful response to tyranny, but compelled to resort to force when it is unable to protect them in any other way. This is a familiar theme in drama. It is the struggle of the Pacifist Bride who finally resorts to violence to protect her Lone Lawman husband in "High Noon". The moral is clear. A righteous person avoids violence, even at the cost of his personal dignity and pride, but sometimes Evil leaves him no choice but to use violence to defend the innocent, especially those he loves. He agonizes over the harm he has done in the past, and that he doing, and must do, but love is stronger, and while it may begin with those of his own family, he cannot avoid the duty that comes with love of the innocent everywhere. It is about the way a man discovers the patriot in himself. The ways in which this movie is relevant today is revealed by the ways it departs from Revolutionary War history. The story of Francis Marion would have made a good movie if told straight, but this movie has some points to make that justify the historical departures, and it is interesting how some critics have fastened on those departures to attack the movie, while conveniently avoiding their deeper meaning. Much has been made of Martin handing muskets to two of his young sons and leading them on a merciless slaughter of the British soldiers taking his oldest son to be hung, on orders of the evil Col. Tavington, played by Jason Isaacs, or of the emerging camaraderie between a racist white militiaman and a black slave who originally joined to win his freedom and stayed on to finish the war. The first is decried as appalling, and the second as improbable. But in fact boys that young, and some women, did fight in the Revolution, as did some blacks, and fighting together does produce bonding that breaks down barriers. Some would have their readers believe that all white southerners were racist slaveholders, but in fact only wealthy planters could afford slaves, and among them, slavery was often regarded as wrong, especially among the better educated and more religious. There were free slaves in every state, and many of them worked on plantations for wages. A more significant departure is in the scene in which Col. Tavington orders the townspeople, who have supported the revolution, into their church, then has them locked in and the church burned with all the people inside, including women and children. That would have been considered an unthinkable atrocity at the time. The historical Colonel Tarleton was brutal, but not that brutal. But it does not represent a Revolutionary War event. It represents the Davidian church in 1993. And Col. Tavington represents the modern paramilitary federal agency, as revealed in the meeting between Col. Tavington and Lord Gen. Cornwallis, in which Cornwallis berates Tavington for his brutal methods, but accedes to Tavington's proposal to operate "outside the chain of command", and offers him land in Ohio if he can pull it off. This kind of conspiracy to afford deniability to political leaders while conducting atrocities is something that could occur in any time, but didn't happen during the American Revolution. It is happening in our own time. The movie brings out other things about the militia. It shows them being called up, not as an act of an official, but by private persons aware of a common threat. It shows how they might initially be less effective in a stand-up battle requiring extensive military training and discipline, buthow they become more effective with experience, until they can defeat the most powerful army, largely because they are better at personal combat, making up in personal skills what they lack in unit cohesion. It should be noted that, for all its unit discipline, it was individual combat ability that did most to enable the Roman militia to conquer the Mediterranean world. Gibson turns in his usual wonderful performance, comparable to that of his performances in the equally pointed movies, "Conspiracy Theory" and "Braveheart". But the outstanding performance in this movie is by a newcomer, not just to acting, but to life -- the little girl who plays Martin's youngest daughter, Susan. Getting a child so young to act so well is amazing, and I predict more outstanding performances from that young lady. Mel Gibson, Roland Emmerich, and the others behind this excellent movie should be commended for giving up a deeper appreciation of the concept of the militia, and how all of us have a militia duty to defend one another. It has done a great deal to revive the militia spirit to defend our Constitution, for which so many noble patriots died. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 22:00:19 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Waco Civil Trial, Gordon Novel Provides Updates 6/27/00 (fwd) On Jun 30, saba22@webtv.net wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This information from Gordon Novel is worth reading; it relates the death of Colby, an old friend of Gordons, to Waco.....keep remembering a friend of Bud Fensterwald's, next door neighbor, CIA, who was also found in a river - Bud headed up the Committee to Investigate Assassinations, which triggered off Watergate. Jim Marrs in his book Cross Fire refers to the Executive Order which may have conributed to death of JFK and also to Paisley. Death by water....so this is interesting item and when you start counting body bags this can all be laid at the front door of the White House. Gordon Novel is an exper in many different areas, and one thing for sure, this man, does not lie. A Saba For your convenience have reproduced this but the item under subject matter has some interesting material for concerned conspiracy believers....for the truth, will make you sick. =20=20=20 CLICK HERE=A0Free Internet Access Forever | Business Help | Software | Computer Games | Work & Money | Health | Business Tools | Fitness | Business Research=20 Without Justice, there is JUST_US! =20 Waco Civil Trial, Gordon Novel Provides Updates 6/27/00=20 Friday, 30-Jun-2000 13:42:12=20 Waco Civil Trial, Gordon Novel Provides Updates 6/27/00=20 http://waco93.com/wwwboard/messages/684.html Source: Alex Jones A.M. Radio Show Published: 6/27/00 Author: Alex Jones and=20 Gordon Novel Accuracy in Media and Judicial Watch enter the Waco investigation.=20 Gordon Novel was interviewed on the Alex Jones Show today, 9.400/12.172=20 shortwave. See www.infowars.com for more Waco information.=20 Gordon Novel is the investigator working for Attorney Ramsey Clark.=20 He stated that the WACO advisory jury is now down to 5 members as a result of=20 several persons quitting and some being dismissed. There was reference that some may have been threatened. The "Chief=20 Branch Davidian Attorney", Michael Caddell, negotiated to obtain 40 hours to present the case and now he is "wasting"=20 much of the plaintiff's time. Joining the conversation in progress...... GN: So at that point Caddell was asked by Ramsey, who had refused to let him=20 have Shiela Martin, in effect he wanted to use our witnesses, and Ramsey denied him the right to Shiela, so the next day the=20 judge decides that he is going to limit the trial to 40 hours... There's a motion before the judge to extend the trial from=20 Ramsey..... AJ: So basically the Judge won't even let the real attorneys, former attorney=20 general Ramsey Clark...... GN: It's like Fort Hood; it's a total sham.... AJ: By Fort Hood, you mean the test they had a few weeks ago.... GN: I mean it is a sham operation that the Judge has taken out the gassing=20 ... It's not much different than Nazi Germany, the idea that it is a discretionary function of the gestapo to murder people by=20 gassing them. And you can't do anything for it because THEY ARE THE LAW. So what they are basically doing, if this goes down, it=20 will be a loud message to all the police departments in America that the murder of somebody they don't like is a=20 discretionary function. So there will be no protecting of the American public from the discretionary function of the federal=20 authorities and that will pass down to the states and the cities. And we will be clearly into a police state. AJ: Well, normally I am not a big fan of Lee Hancock. I know you appreciate=20 her because she has done better than most so-called mainstream newspaper writers. But I have to admit that one of the=20 articles she wrote today is pretty hardcore. Have you read it? GN: No, I haven't. AJ: Well, I think the media and a lot of people that aren't on the inside but=20 are willing accomplices, I think they are starting to see how corrupt this is. Do you agree Gordon?=20 GN: Yea, the media definitely seems to be understanding the level of=20 corruption, the collusion between Caddell and Bradford and the judge, or conspiracy, if you want to call it that. Because it is=20 obviously an orchestrated situation.=20 AJ: Yes, and Bradford is the U.S. attorney.=20 GN: But I would absolutely believe..... Ah, a friend of mine told me that up=20 in Washington, a couple of the patriot types were working within one of the intelligence agencies and had been wiretapping=20 covertly from their computers most of the major players and had collected thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of hours=20 of these guys talking on the phone and said he was going to release them right after the trial. So, I don't know whether to take=20 that with a grain of salt, or the way I heard it, it sounded somewhat credible. But he said they are in a lock-in conspiracy=20 between the judge and Reno and Danforth and Burton and Caddell.... This is a bipartisan cover-up. This is definitely not=20 a political issue. I mean, the fact that the=20 Rangers are not doing anything about anything. They've got a responsibility.... We've got=20 a witness, the former chief chemist for 25 years of Dow Chemical Co. wants to testify that the methylene chloride levels that=20 were pumped into place killed the people .... both gassing them and making it impossible for them to leave, particularly the=20 vault and that it contributed heavily to the fire. I will say that Caddell's fire (expert) fellow yesterday, was very good in that he said=20 the fire causes were undeterminable. However, Caddell, in his opening remarks said that he believed that the Davidians had=20 set one fire and that the government had set two. He is supposedly going to do his summation by actually accusing the=20 Clark-camp Davidians of setting the fire. So that's the kind of situation.... All of our witnesses are being barred. The judge will only give us 8=20 hours..maybe he hasn't given us any, I don't know, as of this afternoon, if we are even going to get 8 hours of testimony in.=20 We've spent about three and a half million dollars and Caddell claims one=20 million and we get to put on 8 hours of the case. I mean it's ridiculous, the evidence is well over a million pages of documents.=20 And we are just looking, Alex, we have 50,000 photographs that were given last week, right before the trial by Caddell, who=20 had had them allegedly since early May and it's impossible to look at 50,000 pictures because end to end, they would be ten=20 miles long.=20 AJ: Certainly, you remember a year ago, Smith started stalling for the FBI,=20 the release of all these documents, and what, you got them a week before the trial Gordon?=20 GN: Yea, Ramsey Clark was given nothing. The Judge is making it very clear=20 that he is the new Roy Bean north of the Pecos and we are going to have a historic civil trial that is basically totally=20 rigged. It appears to be completely rigged from my experience in foreign countries. I've know of a much better show trial that=20 was done in the Soviet Union. And they do much better show trails than this and this is a joke. This is an absolute total=20 failure.=20 AJ: Well, we know that and you are the person who broke the story, from your=20 research, that Michael Caddell, and it's now been reported in the major papers, has given over $700,000 to Bill Clinton's=20 re-election bids and, we can tie Caddell, the so-called lead Branch Davidian attorney in all the press reports, and he's=20 not even the Davidians' lawyer, appointed by the Judge as lead counsel, that he is going to get more federal prison contracts=20 with his $500 million dollar construction company.=20 GN: That's right BREAK AJ: All right America, we are back live right here on Genesis and we are=20 talking to Gordon Novel, the chief investigator for the Davidians and Ramsey Clark, former attorney general, and Mr. Brannon. And=20 they are the real team in there trying to win this civil suit against the feds. They have poured million of dollars into it.=20 They ought to be commended but they are running head-on into a brick wall, called Judge Walter Smith, called Janet Reno and the=20 Justice Dept., the FBI, the former Senator John Danforth, the cover-up artist, and Michael Caddell. If you read the press=20 reports, you are going to read that Michael Caddell is the Davidians' attorney. Now the media knows that that's not true. We've put=20 them on the hot seat about it several times, that Caddell represents some of the Davidians' surviving family members and was=20 chosen out of a pool of hundreds of lawyers when this case first starting developing 4 or 5 years ago.=20 Gordon, there's so much to talk about. You talk about the documents... Are=20 you guys going to be able to bring into evidence this new Infrapection document? Tell people a little bit about that. GN: We filed that yesterday. Infraspection, as you correctly interpreted, was=20 contacted by CBS 60 Minutes in 1996. After I took the tape to CBS 60 Minutes, to Mike Wallace, following discoveries by=20 myself and my brother, George Micha (sp) and his son and another friend of ours. We sent it over to Bill Colby, the former=20 director of CIA, to have it checked out and corroborated. Then we got it and we sent it to Mike Wallace. AJ: Then Colby was killed. GN: Yea, then it went to Infraspection but they didn't want to talk about it=20 because they were scared. We were told very clearly by Mike Wallace's adoped son, that Mike said it was the first time he=20 had ever seen the kind of pressure that went well beyond the Brown & Williamson tobacco story.. They had to kill the tape. Four years, in January, they came back and said=20 something very positive that it was confirmed.=20 But that's after they were embarrassed in Mike McNulty's "Rules of Engagement." AJ: Because that was aired on HBO dozens of times. GN: Yea, so where we are right now, Infraspection has been retained by a news=20 watchdog group called Accuracy in Media, in Washington, and Judicial Watch, and they are proposing, we understand, to do=20 a full-blown open scientific test in the not too-distant future..... AJ: And that was your idea. We broke that here on the air about two months=20 ago to do a reenactment - a real reenactment GN: Well, it's going to have to be done at Mr. Carmel and we have to have=20 enough time to get the weather right in order to be able to do it, because the weather is a major issue. It can easily be done=20 and it may be done immediately following the trial because we may have a very unique situation.=20 The jury may be asked not to=20 render its verdict until the Judge renders his verdict on the FLIR tape, because he severed it, saying the issue is too complex for=20 a jury to determine because.... Ah, what he really wants to do is make the argument that because of all the government's attempt=20 to make it appear that the tape exonerates them and that these are just glints off the ground from glass laying on the=20 ground.... The only problem they've got, one of the big problems, is that there are no reflections or solar specular reflections=20 prior to about 10:42 in the morning. So there's four and one-half hours where there are no lights shown.... AJ: Number one, we all know that FLIR is forward looking infrared radar and=20 it doesn't pick up flashes just from light, it picks up heat signatures. We've got men coming out of tanks firing automatic=20 weapons. Infraspection, back in '95 or 96, did the tests for 60 Minutes. They looked at it and said it shows tanks running over=20 people, it shows weapons being fired, but because of the political nature, we don't want to be involved in this. Now they are=20 coming out and saying that the Feds and the Ft. Hood test are a fraud. Why the change Gordon? GN: Well the change is because they have the support of Judicial Watch and=20 Accuracy in Media and they have a number of other reports that back them up. And the current Director of the Infraspecion=20 Institute has a little more testicular fortitude. AJ: Gordon, God bless you. I need to get you back on tomorrow with=20 updates..... WacoTragedyNews@aol.com=20 Message thread:=20 Waco Civil Trial, Gordon Novel Provides Updates 6/27/00=20=20=20 (WacoTragedyNews@aol.com) (30-Jun-2000 13:42:12) FLIR Expert James Seffrin with Infraspection Clearly Contradicts the Federal Lie (Sharlene) (30-Jun-2000 13:47:18) Re: Waco Civil Trial, Gordon Novel Provides Updates 6/27/00 (Sharlene) (30-Jun-2000 13:50:41) Treasury agent recounts opening gunfight (WacoTragedyNews@aol.com) (30-Jun-2000 13:53:53) Agents describe barrage of bullets that started siege (The Dallas Morning News) (30-Jun-2000 13:56:48) DMN - Waco Re~examined, Updated articles (APFN) (30-Jun-2000 19:18:32) Back to main board=20=20 Prev Page Next Page=20 Now viewing page 1 of 6 (30-Jun-2000 14:04:43 to 16-Jun-2000 18:32:54)=20 =20 CLICK HERE Message subject: Name: (optional) Email address: (optional) Type your message here: =20 Back to main board=20 Copyright =A9 Looksmart, Ltd. 1997-1999. All rights reserved.=20=20 A. Saba=20=20 Dare To Call It Conspiracy From: saba22@webtv.net (Aleisha Saba) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AMERICAN PATRIOT FRIENDS NETWORK - Waco Civil Trial, Gordon Novel Provides Updates 6/27/00 A. Saba Dare To Call It Conspiracy http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb1075995&MyNum=962386932&P=No&TL=962386932 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #361 *************************