From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOUtah! Political Alert #35 - 30 November 1999 1/2 Date: 01 Dec 1999 15:26:00 -0700 ----- GOUtah! Gun Owners of Utah Utah's Uncompromising, Independent Gun Rights Network. No Compromise. No Retreat. No Surrender. Not Now. Not Ever. Visit our website at http://www.slpsa.org/goutah! GOUtah! Political Alert #35 - 30 November 1999 Today's Voice of Liberty: "No one can read our Constitution without concluding that the people who wrote it wanted their government severely limited; the words 'no' and 'not' employed in the restraint of government power occur 24 times in the first seven articles of the Constitution and 22 times more in the Bill of Rights." -- Edmund A. Opitz If you wish to be added to the GOUtah! list, please log onto our website at http://www.slpsa.org/goutah! or send an e-mail to GOUtah3006@aol.com or send a fax to (801) 944-9937 asking to be added to or removed from the GOUtah! list. We strongly encourage you to forward, copy and share this information with others, on the condition that you pass along the entire document intact and unmodified, and that GOUtah! is clearly indicated as the original source of the material, unless otherwise noted. GOUtah! and Utah CCW and Self-Defense Instructors Organizational Meeting a Great Success! Salt Lake City-26 November 1999: Nearly 20 of the most active instructors teaching a majority of Utah's Concealed Firearms Permit applicants have joined together to form the Utah Self-Defense Instructors Network (US-DIN!), in order to improve the accessibility and quality of firearms safety and self-defense training in the state. The organization will also be involved in grassroots political activity to promote and protect the rights and interests of Utah's CCW instructors, permit holders, permit applicants and gun owners in general. "This organization will be a great asset for professional development and information exchange for all the self-defense instructors throughout Utah," said Winton Clark Aposhian, one of the founders of the group and a member of the US-DIN! steering committee. The group has adopted a formal mission statement and voluntary code of professional conduct and practices. The new organization will also be working closely with Gun Owners of Utah, a well-established independent grassroots political activist network. GOUtah! will serve as the political and public information arm of US-DIN!, providing legislative and public policy analysis, real-time legislative alerts, as well as education and training of CCW permit holders in grassroots political involvement, including voter registration and education, delegate training, citizen lobbying and other related activities. "The self-defense instructors, along with the 30,000 Utah CCW permit holders form a significant, highly-motivated political powerbase, with a major vested interest in the outcome of the current gun rights debate in our state. We intend for Utah's CCW permit holders to be very aggressive politically in effectively defending their right to defend themselves and their families," said Scott Engen, GOUtah's Legislative Director, also a member of the US-DIN! steering committee. In an immediate demonstration of their commitment to making self-defense instruction readily accessible to Utah's citizens, several local CCW instructors in conjunction with US-DIN! are offering Utah professional educators CCW training courses at discounted rates. These courses will satisfy the state training requirements when applying for a Utah CCW permit. The first of these two-day courses will be held Friday Dec. 10 from 7:00 to 9:00 PM and Saturday Dec. 11 from 9:00 AM to Noon at the Lee Kay Hunter Education Center, 2100 South 6000 West in Salt Lake City. Teachers must provide proof of being a professional educator to participate. Contact Steve Beckstead, a US-DIN! instructor at (801) 280-1863 or Terry Tate at (801) 963-8864 for more information on the teacher's CCW program. Self-defense instructors interested in joining the US-DIN! organization should contact Winton Clark Aposhian at (801) 943-5322 or write to US-DIN!, PO Box 71677, Salt Lake City, UT 84171 for more information and a schedule of future activities. Suggestions for More Effective Dealings with the Press and Media by Gun Rights Activists GOUtah! activist N.W. Clayton was recently interviewed by a reporter from a local television station, who was interested in getting GOUtah!'s take on a national news story about firearms. The reporter asked some good questions, and appeared genuinely interested in understanding our side of the story. After the interview, which took place inside a local gun store, people stood around and chatted casually for a few minutes. The reporter's cameraman, who is a gun owner, mentioned that he had been assigned with another reporter to interview some people at a recent gun show in Salt Lake City. While they were setting up in the lobby outside the entrance to the show, numerous people walked by who were either entering the show or leaving it. According to the cameraman, quite a few of these folks either made obscene gestures at the news crew or verbally attacked them, using the foulest possible language. Such behavior (by responsible gun owners) is simply not acceptable. If a news reporter is already prejudiced against gun owners, such encounters as those described by the cameraman are only going to reinforce the reporter's prejudices. If a reporter is not prejudiced against gun owners, such an incident might very well make him so. The fact of the matter is that, while many news editors and upper-level media executives are personally opposed to the right to keep and bear arms, there are quite a few individual reporters out there who, regardless of their personal views on the matter, have a genuine interest in presenting both sides of the issue. And, while many reporters sometimes parrot the standard anti-gun myths created by Handgun Control, Inc., this is quite often due simply to naivet‚ and ignorance. GOUtah! was founded partially in response to the fact that little or nothing was being done by (existing) firearms groups in Utah to educate local journalists about the facts. To remedy this situation, GOUtah! sends out media packets and grants frequent interviews in an attempt to inform and educate Utah's news professionals and, through them, to reach the general public. This type of positive interaction with the local media has resulted in a noticeable improvement in the way that some gun-related news items are reported. While discernible progress has been made in this area, there is still a long way to go. Those of us who have worked hard at cultivating good relationships with some of the people in the local news business are greatly disturbed to hear that a number of gun owners are trying to destroy our hard-earned gains. We need to remember that, even in the age of the Internet, news professionals are still the main gatekeepers on the information highway. If we are to have any hope of presenting our side of the issue to the public, we need to be on good terms with these folks. This doesn't mean that we have to like them or agree with them all the time. It simply means that we need to be polite and civil in our interactions with them. If we throw stones at them, we will only hurt ourselves. -- N.W. Clayton is the Associate Communications Director for GOUtah! [ Continued In Next Message... ] - From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOUtah! Political Alert #35 - 30 November 1999 2/2 Date: 01 Dec 1999 15:26:00 -0700 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] GOUtah! Gun Rights Editorial Response of the Week GOUtah! wishes to recognize the efforts of Utah's proud, dedicated gun rights advocates for excellence in their editorial responses and letters to the editor published in Utah's many newspapers. If you have a letter you'd like to submit or nominate for this recognition, please send a verifiable copy of the published letter, along with the newspaper name and date of publication to GOUtah! by email or fax. We'll reprint it here. Get those word processors humming and let your community know the truth and just where you stand on the issue! From the Deseret News, Sunday, October 31, 1999 Disarming citizens leaves them alarmingly defenseless By Terry L. Thompson Utah has seen a dramatic increase in legislation regarding the 2002 Winter Olympics. It seems that anyone with a particular interest has found some way to intertwine that interest with the pending Olympics in hopes that the Winter Games will propel his or her agenda to a desired conclusion. Certainly this has been the case with attempts to restrict Utah's law-abiding citizens from possession of adequate means of self-preservation. We have seen misguided, misled, uneducated, political and/or politically appointed pundits support restrictive gun-control legislation attacking the very citizens that they purport to protect. A prime example is the attempt to restrict lawful citizens carrying concealed weapons into churches or schools. There have been no incidents of lawful, permit-carrying citizens creating a threat to our children. However, politically motivated individuals and groups have adopted a popular lie which befits their socialist agenda. In a nutshell, disarming "common people" creates a massive dependence on a gloating government. The more dependence on government, the bigger the bureaucracy, the more powerful, the more expansive, the more corrupt, the more oppressive. The individual right to self-preservation is eloquently protected in the Second Amendment to the Constitution and is recognized as a basic God-given right. This is as basic as the need for food, water, shelter or clothing. What must be understood is that the Constitution did not give us this right, it was recognized by our Founding Fathers as an inalienable right God-given to every man. Politicians at all levels, law enforcement administrators, academia and popular groups in society have falsely claimed that their interest in gun control is for the common good. Yet their banner is stained with the blood of countless victims paying the price for their passive nonjustice of societies' real criminals. The common thread is to find blame with society, relinquishing personal responsibility for the pain and suffering caused by predatory criminals. But look out! Law-abiding citizens who wish to prepare to protect themselves or their loved ones from the criminals that liberals coddle and condone are hazardous to society. The height of arrogance is to restrict our ability to protect ourselves and those we dearly care for, knowing that our protection cannot be guaranteed. In a free society, individuals must be allowed the option of "free agency." Otherwise it is not a free society. There always has been and always will be those who choose to abuse their free agency. With that choice is an intent to cause pain, suffering and sorrow for victims of the abuser. We have reasonable laws governing this abuse, and those violating the law must be held personally accountable for their actions. This is reasonable and sensible. It's pathetic and embarrassing to realize that we fall so short of applying proper justice in our criminal nonjustice system. We fail to apply punishment to the very criminals that we create laws to effect and in turn attack law abiding citizens. Politicians have the gall to suggest that lawful citizens carrying concealed weapons are the problem. Here is a clue for evaluating your representatives. When they support legislation aimed at disarming law-abiding citizens, they have discarded prior existing values and have been seduced by corruption in the political system. Their continued time in political office will contribute to the benefit of criminals and serve to decay our precious constitutional protections. With the "politically correct" pressure on our legislators, it is time that law enforcement spoke up. We can no longer sit on the sidelines and blindly hope that our representatives do the right thing. It is time to lend our support not only as law-abiding citizens but as a group of law-enforcement professionals. The vast majority of law enforcement realizes that they cannot guarantee individual safety and therefore fully support the ownership, possession and concealed carry of firearms by law-abiding citizens. Law enforcement: Please take it upon yourself to personally let your representatives know that as a law-enforcement professional, you oppose gun-control laws in all of their sheep wool and clever disguises. Criminal control should be a priority, and we support legislation holding criminals personally responsible for their actions. Law enforcement: It is time to take a public stance against pending legislation. This is increasingly critical, as other organizations are pressuring Utah legislators to enact meaningless restrictions that only affect you. Don't forget, you are a law-abiding citizen first and a law- enforcement professional second. Our state representatives need to know that law enforcement is supporting them. Thus far, the majority of our legislators have shown incredible courage in the fight against socialism. Let's help them as they prepare to do the right thing for the political battles of the future. === Terry L. Thompson, a sergeant in the Weber County Sheriff's Office, has worked in law enforcement for 12 years. He serves on the board of directors of the Utah Peace Officers Association www.upoa.org. Thompson's opinion is his own and does not necessarily reflect the position of the Weber County Sheriff's Office. GOUtah! Gun Rights (and Wrongs) QuoteWatch. "The Governor spoke about polls, about soccer moms not wanting guns in schools and about how the Republicans needed to recapture the agenda... Never once did he say he wanted to do it because it was the right thing to do."-- Unidentified Salt Lake County Legislator, regarding comments made by Utah Governor Mike Leavitt at a closed party caucus last spring favoring a ban on Utah CCW Permit holders bringing their legally carried firearms into schools, as quoted by journalist Paul Rolly in the Salt Lake Tribune, 28 November 1999 "When a 70-year-old retired hunter writes and complains, that fulfills one of the goals of the magazine."--John Atwood, Editor, Sports Afield, gloating on the 112-year-old magazine's change in format from fishing and hunting to new age, yuppie extreme sports coverage, in a recent interview in the Wall Street Journal. This concludes the GOUtah! Political and Legislative Alert #35 - 30 November 1999. We hope this information will be of assistance to you in defending your firearms rights. Remember that getting this information is meaningless unless YOU ACT ON IT TODAY. If you just read it and dump it in the trash, your gun rights, and the gun rights of future generations go in the trash with it. Get involved, get active and get vocal! Copyright 1999 by GOUtah! All rights reserved. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: LPU: FW: Rosie is taking a survey! Date: 02 Dec 1999 14:01:00 -0700 ----- The Rosie O'Donnell Show is taking a survey and wants to know what you think. http://rosieo.warnerbros.com/cmp/rosiepolla.html It's an open-ended, essay-type survey. You might want to enlighten Rosie about the 2nd Amendment and how you feel about her opposition to it. Question 3 is a perfect oppty. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Fw: Ammunition Restrictions in Texas Date: 07 Dec 1999 10:48:23 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 07:17:13 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02700; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:13:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912071413.JAA02700@fs1.mainstream.net> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: noban@mainstream.net X-Divvy-no: 1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Anyone know anything more about this? Kevin McGehee Newnan, Georgia mail@mcgeheezone.com http://www.McGeheeZone.com/ People who think the millennium starts in 2000 should count everything else starting at ZERO too. ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 1:32 AM ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 7:31 PM > X-Sender: spiker@pop3.mho.net > X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 > Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 19:31:24 -0700 > To: (Recipient list suppressed) > From: spiker > Subject: Response to Ammo Amount Restrictions at CTD > > From: Billy > Cheaper Than Dirt > http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ > 1-800-421-8027 > > In response to all the Email Cheaper Than Dirt is getting: > My name is Billy J. Brewer. I am the Operations Manager at Cheaper Than > Dirt. I have been here almost six years. We currently employ almost = 160 > good hard working friendly family people. We have Fire Inspections from > the Fort Worth Fire Department each and every year. The only items ever > written up by the Fort Worth Fire Department have been blown bulbs in = Exit > Signs and two exit aisles blocked by pallets. There has never been > anything said or documented about anything else. On Wednesday, 22 > September 1999 a Lt. John Bolten of the Fort Worth Fire Department shows up > at our company and tells us he has received a report that we have too = much > ammo in the building. > > > This date is only seven (7) days after the September 15, 1999 tragic > shooting at the Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth. > > On Thursday, 23 September 1999 Lt. John Bolten of the Fort Worth Fire > Department presents Article 77 of the 1997 Uniform Fire Code to Cheaper > Than Dirt and states to us that this is what we need to comply to. = Within > Article 77 there are exceptions. Under Seciton 7701.1, Exception 4 = states > "The possession, transportation, storage and use of small arms ammunition= > when packaged in accordance with DOT packaging requirements". Exception = 9 > states "When preempted by federal regulations". All our sporting > cartridges are DOT packaged and covered under the Code of Federal > regulations 49 (CFR 49). Therefore Cheaper Than Dirt should be exempted > from Article 77 requirements. The Fort Worth Fire Department tells us > these exceptions do not apply to us. > > This is obviously a political issue. The Fort Worth Fire Department has > required us to have only 10,000 rounds on display in our Retail Showroom > (this would mean any resident within the City of Fort Worth with over > 10,000 rounds would be out of compliance and subject to citation) and = only > 90,000 rounds in our spinkler protected warehouse (a total of 100,000 > rounds). We sell over 200,000 rounds daily. The 100,000 round number = is > not documented within Article 77. It is a number they consider safe. = The > Fort Worth Fire Department is taking Aguila .22 Short cartridges which does > not have any smokeless powder in it (we pulled a bullet out of this > cartridge and showed it to Lt. John Bolten) and making it fall under the > same guidelines as .50cal BMG cartridges. > > As of this writing we have not found a single gun/ammunition/sporting store > within the City of Fort Worth that has been contacted by the Fort Worth > Fire Department for Article 77 compliance. > > On 23 November 1999 at 0925 hrs Cheaper Than Dirt was served with = General > Complaint Citation B876326 for violation of Section 7701.7.3 Article 77 > UFC-97 by Lt. John Bolten of the Fort Worth Fire Department. > > The following is a list of addresses and Emails of the City of Fort = Worth: > Fire Chief Larry McMillen > City of Fort Worth Fire Department > 1000 Throckmorton Street > Fort Worth, Tx 76102 > > Chief Paul H. Rider > Assistant Fire Marshal > City of Fort Worth Fire Department > 1000 Throckmorton Street > Fort Worth, Tx 76102 > > Bob Terrell > City Manager > City of Fort Worth > 1000 Throckmorton St. > Fort Worth, Tx 76102 > > Mayor Kenneth Barr, Email: BarrK@ci.fort-worth.tx.us > District 2 Mayor Pro tem Jim Lane, Email: District2@ci.fort-worth.tx.us > District 3 Councilmember Chuck Silcox, Email: crsilcox@aol.com > District 4 Councilmember Becky Haskin, Email: District4@ci.fort-worth.tx.us > District 5 Councilmember Frank Moss, Email: District5@ci.fort-worth.tx.u= s > District 6 Councilmember Clyde Picht, Email: cpicht@landslideclyde.com > District 7 Councilmember Jeff Wentworth, Email: District7@ci.fort-worth.tx.us > District 8 Councilmember Ralph McCloud, Email: District 8@ci.fort-worth.tx.us > District 9 Councilmember Wendy Davis, Email: District9@ci.fort-worth.tx.us > > City Hall of Fort Worth > 1000 Throckmorton Street > Fort Worth, Texas 76102 > > I am using this Email Letter to respond in general to the large amount = of > Emails we are receiving about this issue. I apologize for not having = our > company respond individually as is our practice. Thank you all for your > questions, concerns and letters. Please feel free to spread this Email = to > all interested and concerned. Merry Christmas and God Bless > You..........Billy J. Brewer > <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< > --------------------------------------- > "But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to > warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that > man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman > accountable for his blood." > Ezekiel 33:6 (NIV) > ___________________ > "Blaming guns for Columbine is like blaming > spoons for Rosie O'Donnell being fat. > -------------------------------------- > Gun control isn't about guns, it's about control > -------------------------------------- > <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< - To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@mainstream.net, and as the body of the message (plain text, no HTML), send the following: . unsubscribe noban email-address . where email-address is the address under which you are subscribed. Report problems to owner-noban@mainstream.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Clinton Sues Gun Makers Date: 08 Dec 1999 13:22:00 -0700 ----- Does Clinton have standing to bring such a suit or does someone have to shoot him first? :-) ---------- White House Prepares Suit Against Gun Makers Wednesday, December 8, 1999 THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON -- The Clinton administration is helping prepare a class- action suit against gun makers, alleging that guns and how they are marketed have contributed to violence in public housing projects, administration officials said Tuesday. The suit by some or all of the nation's 3,100 local housing authorities would be patterned on suits filed against the industry by 29 cities and counties, the officials said. Those suits claim that gun manufacturers have sold defective products or marketed them in ways that increase the likelihood that they will fall into the hands of criminals. The new legal effort was made known Tuesday and was described by some officials as more of a threat aimed at bringing gun manufacturers to the negotiating table than an effort to actually take them to court. The administration hopes the threat of a national lawsuit will force gun makers to agree to end practices such as marketing guns that are impervious to fingerprints. A negotiated agreement would allow the administration and gun-control advocates to claim a victory at a time when Congress has rejected new firearms restriction laws wanted by President Clinton. "The administration intends to work aggressively to. . . try to work to reach a settlement with the industry," White House domestic policy adviser Bruce Reed said. "If settlement is not possible, then the public housing authorities are prepared to go forward with their suit." Administration officials said the White House and the Department of Housing and Urban Development are helping prepare the suit even though the actual plaintiffs would be independent local authorities that run federal housing programs. The White House and HUD want gun makers to agree to a code of conduct that includes cracking down on disreputable dealers and making safer guns. "The administration and HUD are ready to sue, but our first priority is to change the practice of the industry," a HUD official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. Some gun makers have declared bankruptcy after suits by local governments and others have scaled back their product lines and decreased advertising, according to a countersuit filed by the Second Amendment Foundation, a gun-rights group. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: Federal Lawsuit Against Gun Industry--POLL Date: 09 Dec 1999 18:10:36 -0700 gd ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy --------- Forwarded message ---------- Check out Deseret News Poll on new Federal lawsuits against gun industry. http://www.desnews.com/ Also, Governor Leavitt must be running scared! He's actually submitted to be interviewed by Tom Draschil on Monday, December 13, 1999 at 5:30 p.m. on AM 630. I think he's seriously worried about losing the support of those of us who actually uphold the Constitution in the tradition of our Founding Fathers. ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE e-mail without paying for Web access! -- Or get full, reliable Internet access from Juno Web at just $9.95/month! Download your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagh. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: They ARE Coming for Your Guns. Date: 09 Dec 1999 17:35:00 -0700 ----- It's part of the UN agenda. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19991207_xex_un_coming_yo.shtml - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: J.D. Williams LTE Date: 10 Dec 1999 13:24:00 -0700 If anyone recalls the date of J.D. Williams' recent letter to the editor (SL Trib iIrc) calling for more victim disarmament, could you please tell me? Better still if you happen to have the etext and could provide that as well. Scott - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: ANNIE's GOT HER GUN Date: 13 Dec 1999 21:50:00 -0700 FWIW "Annie's Got Her Gun" by Ann Coulter, from George Magazine About a year ago, a mugger just waltzed right up to me on a bridge here in Washington, D.C. It was early evening, and I was a stone's throw from my apartment in what is considered a nice neighborhood, as neighborhoods go in the Murder Capital: the richly deserved nickname for the nation's capital. I won't belabor my cunning and completely fortuitous escape, except to say that for the few minutes I was standing there waiting to be mugged, I was fuming. I knew he knew that I didn't have a gun. It's illegal to carry a handgun here in the Murder Capital. Not merely illegal but a felony that carries up to a five-year maximum sentence. Just as I could look at my prospective mugger and see that he was not the kind of fellow who would be a fanatic about property rights and bodily integrity, he could see from 50 yards that I was not the type to be committing felonies. I wanted a gun, but more than that I wanted him to think I might possibly have a gun. I wanted him to at least accord me the respect I get from criminals in other cities, where they have to exercise a little creativity, lying in wait, sneaking up from behind, hiding in bushes and dark alleyways -- that sort of thing. No, in D.C. muggers just walk right up to you on a brightly lit street. As an apparently law-abiding citizen, I am ostentatiously defenseless. But let's forget about completely defenseless me on the bridge for a moment. The framers' primary reason for including the right to bear arms in the Bill of Rights was to allow people to protect themselves from tyrannical government; just like the vastly overrated First Amendment. As Alexander Hamilton observed cheerily in Federalist 29, if the government were to "form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights and those of their fellow citizens." Some may be willing to rely on withering editorials in the New York Times to preserve their liberty. I'm counting on a sleek and tasteful SIG-Sauer. If the courts started interpreting the Second Amendment the way they interpret the First, we'd have a right to bear nuclear arms by now. Interestingly, the Supreme Court is incessantly having to remind Americans of their First Amendment rights, issuing more than 100 decisions in the past half century alone. The Court has ruled on the Second Amendment in only a handful of cases, the last time in 1939. But still, about half the citizenry deeply, passionately believe that they have a right to bear arms. Give the First Amendment no support from the courts for over half a century and see if anyone remembers why we're supposed to let Nazis march in Skokie. But the half of the country that intuitively assumes the right to bear arms doesn't live in my neighborhood. That's why I'm getting exasperated with the constitutional argument. Too few people; girl people in particular; appreciate the central point: Guns are our friends. When it comes to the First Amendment, everyone gets warm patriotic feelings, tearing up over John Stuart Mill's marketplace of ideas. They think immediately of our right to engage in political speech, scientific research, avant-garde art, and to burn politicians in effigy (or maybe that's just me). Speech on the fringe, like Aryan Nation propaganda or Hustler magazine is understood to be an unpleasant, if inevitable, by-product of a freedom we cherish. But with the Second Amendment, it's all Hustler magazine. No upside, just school shootings and all those apocryphal "gun accidents." (In 1945, for every million Americans there were 350,000 firearms and 18 fatal gun accidents. By 1995, there were 850,000 firearms per million, and fatal gun accidents had fallen to six.) Guns are our friends, because in a world without guns I'm what is known as prey. Almost all females are. Any male; even the sickliest 98-pound weakling; could overpower me in a contest of brute force against brute force. For some reason, I'm always asked whether I wouldn't prefer a world without guns. No, I'd prefer a world in which everyone is armed, even the criminals who mean to cause me harm. Then I'd at least have a fighting chance. What the arms-control faithful really want is a world without violence, not a world without weapons. These are the ideological descendants of the authors of the Kellogg-Briand Pact, which purported to outlaw war. But we can't have a world without violence, because the world is half male and testosterone causes homicide. A world with violence; that is to say, with men; but without weapons is the worst of all possible worlds for women. As the saying goes, God made man and woman; Colonel Colt made them equal. Prey like me use guns against predators about a million times a year. Fifteen different studies (including those sponsored by gun control advocates) have arrived at the following estimates: at the low end, several hundred thousand times per year; at the high end, several million. I especially want potential assailants to have to worry that I might be carrying. In numerous surveys, criminals have confirmed the blindingly obvious point that they are disinclined to attack a victim who might be armed. Countries with those fabulously low crime rates and fabulously fascistic gun control laws; such as Canada, the Netherlands, and Britain; have more burglaries of occupied homes per capita than we do. Canada's burglary rate of occupied homes is more than three times that of the armed-to-the-teeth U.S. Although the murder rate is lower in Britain, rape, robbery, burglary, and assault are all substantially higher there than in the U.S. It must be said, the framers were not insensate to the crime-prevention qualities of firearms. In the late eighteenth century, standing armies had become nothing more than roving bands of criminals. The Second Amendment was, in part, a response to those early cases of police brutality. (Why is it that the same people who have the least confidence in the police and the military are the most willing to allow only the police and the military to have guns?) Thomas Jefferson, for example, copied into his book of favorite quotes an observation by Cesare Beccaria, the founder of the science of criminology: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." That night in Washington, by the way, I was rescued by a man. I'm all for men; I like to have them around all the time. But sometimes they can't be. Sometimes they have to go buy things for us. More pertinently, sometimes they're ex-husbands coming after us with machetes. We live in a world in which men are supposed to freeze when we say no, our bodily integrity is sacrosanct, we are autonomous beings, I am woman, hear me roar -- but we're not allowed to defend ourselves from a physical attack with the only effective means possible. Just stand waiting on the bridge and hope for a nice man to come along. Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send blank message to freematt@coil.com with subject: subscribe FA List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month) Matthew Gaylor, 1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229 http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/ POLITECH: moderated mailing list of politics and technology To subscribe send text message to majordomo@vorlon.mit.edu subscribe politech http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOUtah! Political Alert #36 - 13 December 1999 1/2 Date: 15 Dec 1999 14:17:00 -0700 GOUtah! Gun Owners of Utah Utah's Uncompromising, Independent Gun Rights Network. No Compromise. No Retreat. No Surrender. Not Now. Not Ever. Visit our website at www.slpsa.org/goutah! GOUtah! Political Alert #36 - 13 December 1999 Today's Voice of Liberty: "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves" -- Edward R. Murrow If you wish to be added to the GOUtah! list, please log onto our website at www.slpsa.org/goutah! or send an e-mail to GOUtah3006@aol.com or send a fax to (801)944-9937 asking to be added to the GOUtah! list. CCW Classes at Crossroads Gun Shows No Longer a Fund-Raiser for USSC. From a prepared statement received from Concealed Carry Specialists, 8 December 1999 On November 27, 1999, the Utah Shooting Sports Council (USSC) received their last fund-raising check from Concealed Carry Specialists (CCS) for teaching concealed carry classes at the Crossroads of the West Gun Shows. When asked why, Shirley Spain, CCS Business Manager replied, "In a word: Politics. The gap between our definition of 'protecting' gun rights and USSC's was widening. Terms like 'reasonable' and 'compromise' seemed to be rolling off the lips of some (USSC) board members too easily for our liking. It was time for us to get out." However, CCS isn't going to "get out" of the training classes at the gun show. Spain has made a business arrangement with Crossroads proprietor, Bob Templeton, to continue to teach the classes. Thus the $25 concealed carry classes will continue to be offered by CCS at the Salt Lake and Ogden Crossroads of the West Gun Shows, the only difference being they will no longer be a fund-raiser for USSC. Since CCS began this unique fund-raiser with Crossroads in the fall of 1995, the gun show training classes have raised over $35,000 for USSC. -End of the CCS Prepared Statement- GOUtah! Note: We have long been vocal critics of USSC's recently-demonstrated 'pro-compromise' approach to gun rights advocacy as being at serious odds with the needs, interests and desires of the vast majority of Utah gun owners and gun-rights advocates. That's why GOUtah! came into being, TO UPHOLD A NO-COMPROMISE POSITION PROTECTING YOUR GUN RIGHTS! As a reward for their unswerving devotion to principle, many activists in GOUtah! have been publicly-labeled in the media and in public policy circles as 'radicals' and 'extremists' by USSC's leaders. The privately-expressed opinions of USSC's leadership regarding your (and our) firm commitment to upholding these important principles are widely-reported to be even more unflattering and antagonistic. It would seem that the recent CCS decision to cease funding USSC's operations tends to vindicate the 'no-compromise' stance of both GOUtah!, and the vast majority of Utah's gun rights activists. We're sure this was a difficult decision for CCS to make. We applaud CCS' courage,and recognize them as ardent, long-time supporters of our rights of self-defense and firearms ownership. We're proud to be GOUtah! We're on the right track. We will continue to stand tall and unbending in the defense of our rights and interests. We hope all of you will continue to stand firm with us as well. Bridgeport, CT Lawsuit Against Gun Industry Thrown Out From NRA/ILA - 13 December 1999 Decision follows October dismissal of Cincinnati suit; NRA predicts growing trend against efforts to hold legitimate industry liable for criminal actions of third parties. (WASHINGTON, DC) -- The National Rifle Association today hailed a Connecticut Superior Court decision to dismiss the City of Bridgeport's lawsuit against firearms manufacturers, as evidence of a growing trend against efforts to hold a legitimate industry liable for the criminal actions of third parties. The decision to throw out of court the Bridgeport suit follows last October's ruling to dismiss with prejudice a similar suit filed by the municipality of Cincinnati. "All those mayors who jumped on the lawsuit bandwagon in order to get their names in the papers ought to buckle their seatbelts, because the bandwagon is starting to come to a screeching, judicial halt," said James J. Baker, executive director of NRA's Institute for Legislative Action. "Once again, just as in the Cincinnati case, the court has employed sound judgement and common sense. These reckless lawsuits have no place in our judicial system." In his written opinion, Judge Robert McWeeny dismissed the case and ruled that Bridgeport and other cities, "... lack any statutory authorization to initiate such claims" of liability against the firearms industry. Baker applauded the decision, noting a December 12, 1999 Houston Chronicle report of a Tarrance Group poll that found that 84% of Americans feel that those who illegally misuse firearms should be held responsible, while only 5% believe that manufacturers or retailers should be held responsible for the criminal misuse of firearms. "The idea of holding a lawful industry responsible for the criminal acts of third parties flies in the face of common sense and our system of jurisprudence," Baker said. "Americans want to see the laws already on the books enforced to hold armed criminals directly responsible for their actions. They don't support these suits, nor the greedy lawyers and mayors behind them." During the past year, 14 states have adopted legislation to prevent municipalities from filing similar lawsuits against the lawful, legitimate firearms industry. Baker predicted that more states would adopt such measures next year. NRA Ranked High in Influence on U.S. Capitol Hill From the NRA-ILA Fax Alert- Vol. 6, No. 45 11/19/99 For the third year in a row, NRA moved up in the top 10 of FORTUNE magazine's "Power 25," its listing of the most influential lobbying groups in America. Compiled by Fortune's senior writer and Washington bureau chief Jeffrey H. Birnbaum, the "Power 25" is based on responses to a survey sent to nearly 2,700 individuals, including every member of Congress, Hill staffers, senior White House aides, professional lobbyists, and top-ranking officers of lobbying organizations and companies. In 1998, NRA was ranked 4th on the list, moving up two spots from the 6th spot the year before. This year our position improved two more spots again, moving us into a tie for second most influential, just behind the AARP. Even more important, however, is the fact that NRA was ranked No. 1 by lawmakers and Hill staffers, the people who really count when it comes to effective lobbying. Birnbaum correctly points out that NRA's influence starts with its nearly 3 million members, and he states, "[T]he NRA is a force with few equals in Washington." This sentiment was echoed as recently as yesterday by anti-gun U.S. Rep. Diana DeGette (D-Colo.), who said, "I have never seen a lobby with more clout than the NRA." And on a somewhat amusing note, HCI President Bob Walker was quoted as saying, "We (HCI) are the ones making progress, not the NRA. The NRA is basically running out of gas." This comment is amusing because, yet again, HCI failed to make its way onto the "Power 25" list, finishing in the bottom half of 114 groups tested. [ Continued In Next Message... ] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOUtah! Political Alert #36 - 13 December 1999 2/2 Date: 15 Dec 1999 14:17:00 -0700 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] Clinton Adds to Legacy of Lies From the NRA-ILA Fax Alert- Vol. 6, No. 45 11/19/99 While the nation has grown shamefully accustomed to Bill Clinton's propensity for deceit and outright lies, it is worth mentioning that he recently tried to spin a yarn about being a Life Member of NRA. According to a recent article in the Washington Times, while attending a Democratic National Committee fund-raiser in Atlanta, Ga., Clinton claimed, "I once had a lifetime membership in the NRA. I've even got my jacket there." NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, however, dispelled the President's claim, stating, "He never had a lifetime membership, he never had a jacket. He made it up." Perhaps Clinton was trying to win over attendees of the fund-raiser who are NRA members, as Georgia boasts many pro-Second Amendment Democrats. Mr. LaPierre, tongue in cheek, offered his own insights. "You know, if he's that delusional, maybe he did inhale." Chenoweth-Hage Reintroduces Bill (H.R. 3444) To Repeal (Federal) Lautenberg Gun Ban From Gun Owners of America Yesterday, Rep. Helen Chenoweth-Hage (R-ID) reintroduced her very popular bill to repeal the misdemeanor gun ban. Passed in 1996 as part of the omnibus spending bill, the Lautenberg ban would disarm people for offenses that include pushing, shoving (or in some cases, even yelling at) a family member. The language of the gun ban is so expansive that legitimate corporal punishment can be used-- and has been used-- to disarm unsuspecting parents. Chenoweth-Hage's bill would repeal the entire ban, unlike other proposals in Congress which only repeal the retroactive nature of the law. Those unfamiliar with the Lautenberg ban should see http://www.gunowners.org/kldvtb.htm on the GOA website. H.R. 3444 currently has 19 cosponsors. During the Congressional recess, gun owners should ask their (Federal) Representatives to cosponsor the bill. GOUtah! Gun Rights (and Wrongs) QuoteWatch. "When you find out, tell me." -- U.S. Senator Larry Craig, (R-Idaho), responding to a reporter's question on why he thought Orrin Hatch was running for President, as reported in the Salt Lake Tribune, 10 December 1999 "I believe in miracles. It would probably take that to elect me." -- Orrin Hatch, in his assessment of his chances to gain the office of the Presidency, in the same article in the Salt Lake Tribune, 10 December 1999 "Face it,...Hatch (has) no more chance of winning the Republican nomination than a 100-shooter winning the U.S. Open." -- Sandy Grady, syndicated columnist for the Philadelphia Daily News, as appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune, 13 December 1999. "It's time to remind Senator Hatch that the people of Utah elected him to protect their rights in Washington, rather than to allow him to ignore their urgent needs and concerns while he is obsessively engaged in the pursuit of a clearly-doomed Presidential nomination bid." -- GOUtah! This concludes the GOUtah! Political and Legislative Alert #36 - 13 December 1999. We hope this information will be of assistance to you in defending your firearms rights. Remember that getting this information is meaningless unless YOU ACT ON IT TODAY. If you just read it and dump it in the trash, your gun rights, and the gun rights of future generations go in the trash with it. Get involved, get active and get vocal! Copyright 1999 by GOUtah! All rights reserved. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: UPS Discriminates Against Firearms & Owners Date: 15 Dec 1999 14:17:00 -0700 I'd hope guns are shipped "Signature Required"! Scott ----- UPS Discriminates Against Firearms & Owners Comment by moderator Weldon Clark If you used to use UPS in your Christmas shipping you might call 1-800-PICK-UPS every time you ship a present and tell them why you won't be using them to ship it. Merry Christmas. UPS Boycott As you probably know, UPS announced that it no longer accepts ground shipment of handguns. Moreover, for practical purposes air shipment is now likely to require you to go to a UPS office: Handguns may only be shipped via Next Day Air, Next Day Air Early AM and Next Day Saver with the "Adult Signature Required" label properly affixed. Handguns are prohibited from the UPS Ground system, SonicAir BestFlight Service, On-Call Air Pickup, Internet Shipping, Letter Centers (drop Boxes), or One-time Pickup requests. UPS will accept handguns from Daily Pickup accounts & Customer Counters. Packages [with] handguns must be segregated. The driver or clerk must be informed which packages contain handguns. Authorized Shipping Outlets & Commercial Counters are prohibited from accepting any firearms for UPS. This may be intended at least in part to raise the price of firearms. Amazingly, the ostensible reason seems to be that too many guns were being stolen, i.e. by UPS employees. Well, if they're stealing guns, is there anything they won't steal from UPS customers? UPS' response - punish the victim instead of the perpetrator - would seem to reveal that they don't much care if their employees are thieves. In light of this, and regardless of your view on guns, why would anyone want to use UPS? It should also be considered that UPS helped bring about the Waco Massacre by serving as a government snitch. According to Waco Rules of Engagement Producer Dan Gifford, "The driver told the local Sheriff that a package had broken open [with] what looked like hand grenades. They were confirmed to be harmless hulls... From there, someone in the Sheriff's department made a routine referral to ATF for who knows what reason..." "Broke open." Well isn't that special? No doubt UPS employees only steal when packages "break open" by all by themselves. Again, regardless of your feelings about guns, we can't imagine wanting to patronize a company that has little regard for its customers' privacy & property and in one case helped get over 80 of them murdered – including two dozen children. A UPS boycott was shaping up until Fedex subsidiary RPS said it too was banning ground shipments of guns, and Airborne announced a ban on ALL guns. DHL says that they do not ship any guns either. So what do we do now that UPS air & Fedex air are the only private game in town? As concerned citizens & consumers, we can either do nothing or pick one and boycott it. We recommend boycotting UPS: They started it, they snitched at Waco, and they'd rather punish their customers than their paid thieves. Since they seemingly can't be trusted to ship anything anyway, it's easier to spread the effect beyond the Constitutional Rights Community. Of course, we'd also avoid doing business with Airborne Express. Or you can boycott all the private companies and switch to the US Postal Service. Unfortunately, most businesses probably won't do that since the post office is many cases is inconvenient for overnight delivery, but they might switch to another private delivery company if they heard about UPS's theft problem (and their preanimistic "solution" to it). Rather than "go postal," it may be more effective to single out UPS and spread the word on their kleptophilia to their broader, non-gun-rights-oriented customer base. UPS Corporate Headquarters United Parcel Service of America, Inc. 55 Glenlake Parkway, NE Atlanta, GA 30328 1-800-PICK-UPS (1-800-742-5877) UPS E-Mail: customer.service@ups.com norman.black@ups.com jflick@ups.com srosenberg@ups.com com1jns@is.ups.com pgardner@ups.com ssoltis@ups.com tsegal@corpmail.ups.com air2kes@air.ups.com RPS e-mail WEB http://www.ups.com AIRBORNE EXPRESS e-mail: cac.web@airborne.com webmaster@airborne.com Also see Leroy Pyle's UPS boycott site http://www.paulrevere.org/boycottups/ Related item: Contact your Federal Representatives and insist that any further Waco hearings not be a whitewash like the last congressional investigation. From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia Weapons see www.2ndamendment.net For legislative updates contact www.nealknox.com and go to "Scripts from the Firearms Coalition Legislative Update Line" Write your CONGRESSMAN OR STATE LEGISLATORS can now be accomplished at the speed of light, thanks to WorldNetDaily's new Legislative Action Center. http://congress.nw.dc.us/wnd/ You can call your two Senators at (202) 224-3121 and your Representative at (202) 225-3121 at the Capitol Switchboard. Here is the URL for Congressional Telephone Directory: http://clerkweb.house.gov/106/mbrcmtee/members/teledir/me mbers/cdframe.htm Here's an e-mail link to Congress. http://in-search-of.org/ http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ http://www.gunowners.org/mailerx.html The way to protect your own rights is to protect the rights of others. Our right to own and use firearms is under attack. To join or be removed please send: E-MAil to listserver@frostbit.com with the following text in the message body: SUBSCRIBE 2nd-Amendment-News Or UNSUBSCRIBE 2nd-Amendment-News To send a message to the list administrator, send E-mail to luz.clark@prodigy.net Feel free to forward our alerts. If you've received this as a forward and wish to subscribe please send a reply to me at luz.clark@prodigy.net or behanna@fast.net Cordially Yours, The 2ndAmendmentNews Team 2ndAmendmentNews is published by volunteer activists who support the full original individual rights intent of the 2nd Amendment and oppose any appeasement on gun rights. The moderators include Chris Behanna, Weldon Clark (an NRA director) and Steve Cicero. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry larsen" Subject: Re: UPS Discriminates Against Firearms & Owners Date: 16 Dec 1999 12:38:38 -0700 UPS also steals jewlery, a ring replacement , for one that was stolen by a house breakin, was stolen from the package prior to Thanksgiving this year by a UPS employee in LA. The local jewler says it happens more than they would like, and insurance claims with UPS take up to 4 months. Larry - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Re: UPS Discriminates Against Firearms & Owners Date: 16 Dec 1999 14:41:13 -0700 My brother-in-law recently mailed--via the US Post Office--a diamond ring to California and back for some work. He sent it their highest security (Certified, insured?) and was very impressed. Apparantly every opening is taped and stamped and the box is then locked in a safe for transport. If the seal is broken prior to obtaining the receivers release sig, the issurance is paid. I don't know the USPS's policy on shipping guns, but it would probably be worth a look for any gun dealers out there. Of course for the rest of us it doesn't really matter too much as we can't ship gun across state lines via any method other than private transport anyway. On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:38:38 -0700 "larry larsen" writes: > UPS also steals jewlery, a ring replacement , for one that was > stolen by a > house breakin, was stolen from the package prior to Thanksgiving > this year > by a UPS employee in LA. The local jewler says it happens more > than they > would like, and insurance claims with UPS take up to 4 months. > Larry > > > > > - > ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Subject: Re: UPS Discriminates Against Firearms & Owners Date: 16 Dec 1999 15:35:30 -0700 charles hardy wrote: > > I don't know the USPS's policy on shipping guns, but it would probably be > worth a look for any gun dealers out there. I believe that both dealers and non dealers can ship LONG GUNS via USPS. Dealers can also ship handguns, but it has to be dealer to dealer. The postmaster likes to see copies of both (sending and receiving) licenses. > Of course for the rest of us it doesn't really matter too much as we can't > ship gun across state lines via any method other than private transport > anyway. Not quite true. An individual (non dealer) can ship guns across state lines to the factory for repair or to an FFL holder. I am trying to use USPS whenever possible since I am really pissed off at UPS. Dave at DAVE'S GUNS - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Re: UPS Discriminates Against Firearms & Owners Date: 16 Dec 1999 15:48:44 -0700 On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:35:30 -0700 Dave writes: > Not quite true. An individual (non dealer) can ship guns across > state lines > to the factory for repair or to an FFL holder. I did not realize that. Thanks for the info. Can the factory or FFL holder ship it directly back to the non-dealer or must return be arranged via a dealer? > > I am trying to use USPS whenever possible since I am really pissed > off at > UPS. The USPS has problems, but they are pretty good at some things and I think security is one of them. And with all the private carriers acting as they are with guns, they are they only alternative to allow a boycott. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Subject: Re: UPS Discriminates Against Firearms & Owners Date: 16 Dec 1999 16:03:23 -0700 charles hardy wrote: > On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:35:30 -0700 Dave writes: > > > Not quite true. An individual (non dealer) can ship guns across > > state lines > > to the factory for repair or to an FFL holder. > > I did not realize that. Thanks for the info. > > Can the factory or FFL holder ship it directly back to the non-dealer or > must return be arranged via a dealer? In the past, I know that guns would be returned to an individual. Now I'm not sure. If a customer brings me a gun for repair I need to do a NICS check when he/she picks it up. > > > > > > I am trying to use USPS whenever possible since I am really pissed > > off at > > UPS. > > The USPS has problems, but they are pretty good at some things and I > think security is one of them. And with all the private carriers acting > as they are with guns, they are they only alternative to allow a boycott. > > ================================================================== > Charles C. Hardy > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Why pay more to get Web access? > Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! > Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOUtah! Alert #37 - 17 December 1999 2/2 Date: 17 Dec 1999 10:06:00 -0700 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] Judge Dismisses Miami-Dade Gun Lawsuit According to Reuters, a Florida judge has thrown out a Miami-Dade County lawsuit against U.S. gun manufacturers, ruling that the lawsuit was too vague and the county lacked legal standing as a plaintiff. Miami-Dade County had filed the product liability lawsuit against the gun industry to recoup tax dollars spent treating gunfire victims and investigating gun-related crimes. Circuit Court Judge Amy Dean granted the gun manufacturers' request to dismiss the lawsuit on Monday, ruling that the county ``is not the proper party plaintiff to bring this lawsuit.'' In September, an Ohio judge dismissed a similar suit filed against the gun makers by the City of Cincinnati. Give the Gift of Freedom for Christmas We at GOUtah! wish you and yours a very happy holiday season. While the holidays are indeed hectic and sometimes the real meaning gets lost in the commercial clutter, GOUtah! suggests you gather your loved ones around you and tell them what the gift of freedom means to you. Discuss as a family what you can do today to insure the gift of freedom is passed to the next generation tomorrow. Set aside the price of at least one Christmas present this year and donate that cost to a worthwhile cause, one actively involved in protecting gun rights and individual freedom. A local or national gun-rights group, a local or state pro-gun political candidate, a youth firearms program or some other similar cause would very much appreciate your financial support and involvement. Buy a friend a membership in the NRA or some other gun rights group. Buy a friend a gun-rights book. Take a friend shooting. Buy them a Utah CCW training class. Become a pro-gun delegate in your political party. Volunteer your time to a pro-gun candidate's campaign or to a gun-rights organization. Give the gift of freedom every Christmas! It starts with you! GOUtah! Editorial Response of the Week GOUtah! wishes to recognize the efforts of Utah's proud, dedicated gun rights advocates for excellence in their editorial responses and letters to the editor published in Utah's many newspapers or other publications. If you have a letter you'd like to submit or nominate for this recognition, please send a verifiable copy of the published letter, along with the publication's name and date of publication to GOUtah! by email or fax. We'll reprint it here. Get those word processors humming and let your community know the truth and just where you stand on the issue! From the 20 September 1999 issue of Newsweek, in rebuttal to their 23 August 1999 issue "America Under the Gun." "I'm a lifelong gun owner, having been raised in the West in a culture that teaches responsibility in ownership and handling of guns, and have never seen any of the negatives you decry in your cover story. In response to your misbegotten agenda, I bought another rifle, another handgun, and many boxes of ammunition, and sent a nice fat check to the NRA. Please reconsider your wrongheaded views on this subject." James M. Shaw, Salt Lake City, Utah GOUtah! reminds you that these pro-gun letters do not write themselves. You, as a concerned citizen protecting your gun rights, have to take the time and make the effort to keep up an ongoing stream of letters to the editor to counter the endless stream of misinformation published and broadcast every day on the gun rights issue. Make the time today to write a short, pro-gun rights letter to your local paper or broadcast station. You can mail it, fax it or submit it via e-mail. Go to the GOUtah! web site at http://www.slpsa.org/goutah! select the Other Gun Rightst and Info Link and then select the Utah Media Link. You can send your letter instantly to many of Utah's newspapers, magazines and broadcast stations. Do it now! GOUtah! Gun Rights (and Wrongs) QuoteWatch. "I will not be a candidate for governor. In addition, I will be supporting Mike Leavitt." -- Rep. Marty Stephens, Speaker of the Utah House of Representatives, at a joint press conference with Mike Leavitt at the Utah State Capitol, as reported in the Salt Lake Tribune, 15 December 1999 "It's going to be anything but a Kumbyah, but there will be respect." -- Rep. David Ure, Utah House Majority Whip, in his assessment of the relationship between Governor Leavitt and the Utah House Republicans in the 2000 General Session, as reported in the same article in the Salt Lake Tribune, 15 December 1999 "There is always going to be about 25% of the party that is going to be unhappy with (Leavitt). That other 25% may try and find a candidate." -- Rep. Susan Koehn, House Rules Committee Chair, in the same article in the Salt Lake Tribune, 15 December 1999. "The battle is definitely not over yet." -- Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, (D-NY), a leading gun control advocate on Capitol Hill, forecasting more gun control legislation in the months to come, as reported in the Salt Lake Tribune, 12 December 1999. "...This is hardly a dead issue. It's a very volatile issue, and it changes day to day, literally. It'll carry over and become a campaign issue in November 2000." -- James J. Baker, NRA/ILA Executive Director, as quoted in the same Salt Lake Tribune article, 12 December 1999 This concludes the GOUtah! Political and Legislative Alert #37 - 17 December 1999. We hope this information will be of assistance to you in defending your firearms rights. Remember that getting this information is meaningless unless YOU ACT ON IT TODAY. If you just read it and dump it in the trash, your gun rights, and the gun rights of future generations go in the trash with it. Get involved, get active and get vocal! Copyright 1999 by GOUtah! All rights reserved. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOUtah! Alert #37 - 17 December 1999 1/2 Date: 17 Dec 1999 10:06:00 -0700 ----- GOUtah! Gun Owners of Utah Utah's Uncompromising, Independent Gun Rights Network. No Compromise. No Retreat. No Surrender. Not Now. Not Ever. Visit our website at http://www.slpsa.org/goutah! GOUtah! Alert #37 - 17 December 1999 Today's Voice of Liberty: "Tyranny is always better organized than freedom" -- Charles Peguy If you wish to be added to the GOUtah! list, please log onto our website at http://www.slpsa.org/goutah! or send an e-mail to GOUtah3006@aol.com or send a fax to (801) 944-9937 asking to be added to the GOUtah! list. We strongly encourage you to forward, copy and share this information with others, on the condition that you pass along the entire document intact and unmodified, and that GOUtah! is clearly indicated as the original source of the material, unless otherwise noted. Utah Police Shoot 21, Kill 14 (So Far) in 1999, While Utah CCW Holders are Holding Their Fire...Why? According to several press accounts, Utah's approximately 5000 fully-sworn police officers have now shot 21 individuals in calendar 1999, killing 14. The 1999 death toll at the hands of Utah police is now equal to the police-involved shooting death toll for all of 1998, 1997 and 1996 combined. The most recent police shooting reportedly occurred when two Granite School District officers pulled over a car at I-215 and requested backup from Salt Lake County officers. The suspects were ordered from the vehicle at gunpoint, and one individual was shot and killed when he reportedly reached for a weapon in the back seat. According to published reports, the deceased may have matched the description of a robbery suspect from earlier in the evening. In contrast, GOUtah! is currently aware of none of the some 30,000 Utah CCW permit holders shooting or killing anyone else since the 'no-cause' permit went into effect in mid-1995. The sum total of episodes in which any Utah CCW permit holder discharged their firearm during that same period appears to be as follows: 1) The widely-reported 'warning-shot-into-a-canal-bank' incident in West Jordan, resulting in no injury. 2) A reported single accidental discharge into an office wall at a government office building in Salt Lake City, by a senior state employee, also with no injury. 3) A single accidental discharge at a church facility in Bountiful during a reported 'show-and-tell' episode in which the CCW permit holder reportedly received a minor injury to his hand. That's it. No deaths, no wrongful shootings and only one reported minor injury over nearly five years by nearly 30,000 Utah CCW permit holders. Many large law-enforcement agencies probably have this many firearms accidents in the average month among only a few hundred officers. While these three incidents are unfortunate and perhaps even debatable, a couple of minor problems among some 30,000 CCW permit holders over nearly a half-decade cannot be considered an epidemic, cannot be demonstrated as a pressing safety problem requiring an immediate solution and thus no public policy remedy is required. GOUtah! has and will continue to be supportive of legitimate, reasonable, restrained and responsible law enforcement efforts. We understand that law enforcement officers have a very difficult and thankless job, filled with potential dangers, and that their split-second decisions over life or death will be closely scrutinized by press, prosecutors and the public. It should be noted that several of these recent police shootings have been at best 'questionable,' and at least one held to be unjustified. The officer involved in that case reportedly shot an unarmed jail prisoner attempting to flee a vehicle during transport. The officer was fired, not prosecuted, and quietly re-hired by the same agency as a jail guard. However, we believe it is time that an effective, independent statewide board of citizen oversight be established over police use of force issues and incidents. We also believe that the policies and procedures regarding use of force by law enforcement officers may need to be more closely scrutinized in light of this recent surge in police shootings. We will also stack up the record of responsible restraint compiled by Utah's 30,000 CCW holders against that of any other group. Based on the statistics of the last 12 months, the average law enforcement officer in Utah has about a 0.42% chance of shooting a citizen and about a 0.28% chance of killing that citizen during the next 12 months. In contrast, based on the record of the last 5 years, over the next 12 months Utah CCW holders will shoot no one, kill no one and the chances of injuring themselves or others is functionally too small to even compute. The lack of a 'body count' by Utah's CCW holders should not be viewed in any way as CCW not working to help protect civilian lives and individual safety, but rather that Utah CCW holders are very restrained and responsible in their use of force decisions. So, based on these documented numbers, who'd you rather to be sitting next to in church, on the bus, at work, or have in a school room with your kids? U.S. Gun Industry Opens Their Records to BATF for Direct Online Tracing of Guns U.S. gun makers and wholesalers are giving BATF agents direct access to their computerized gun records so they can trace guns used in crimes. In an article by Gary Fields for USA Today, the full gun records of five major U.S. manufac- turers and wholesalers; H&R 1881 Inc., Smith & Wesson, Taurus, RSR Wholesale and Davidson's Wholesale are now online with BATF. Beretta USA is in the process of creating an online link, and BATF expects about 10 other major U.S. companies to allow direct access to their gun records in the next year. Federal law has long prohibited any centralized listing or database of firearms and/or firearms owners. While BATF claims the records will only be used to trace guns used in crimes, gun rights advocates are not so sure abuses won't take place. Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America was quoted in the article as saying the BATF was "at least as ethically challenged as the FBI. When they're getting all that information from a manufacturer, that is a registration system and it's a centralized one." Pratt noted that the history of federal agencies have had on the gun issue makes it difficult to accept that the records won't be stored somehow and used against law-abiding gun owners. Alan Gottlieb of the Second Amendment Foundation echoed the concern about records abuse, stating "The problem is the trust, or lack of, we have in government agencies not to misuse it." GOUtah! believes that any online access by any governmental entity to any firearms records held by private industry, even if such access is voluntary, will very likely result in wholesale firearms records retrieval, recording and storage by public and/or private parties for future use and/or misuse. We need look no further that the FBI-NICS records abuses to demonstrate that this concern is indeed valid. Even if the actual source of the records is at a remote location and is the property of or under control of a private company, such unfettered federal access to these records is a very dangerous undertaking. Clearly one should not look to the U.S. gun industry to protect freedom or privacy. They will protect their own economic and political interests first. [ Continued In Next Message... ] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: GOA Annual Report Date: 17 Dec 1999 15:37:00 -0700 Gun Owners' End Of The Year Report (December 1999) Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org It's tempting, all too often, for people to despair from the bad news that appears in the media. But gun owners should cheer some of the positive gains made this year-gains that could not have been achieved without your help. Here's what they're saying about GOA and its activists: U.S. Representative Helen Chenoweth-Hage, Idaho: "GOA is close to standing alone in Washington. They do not tell their members one thing and do another inside the beltway. They are tough and they don't give up." U.S. Senator Bob Smith, New Hampshire: "You and your members are great patriots." Roll Call, the newspaper of record on Capitol Hill, 8/12/99: "Gun Owners of America is considered the most aggressive pro-gun lobbying organization." "Gun Owners [of America] is... much more active. They moved quickly and we heard from their people," said one House leadership source close to the juvenile crime issue. Thanks For Helping GOA Deliver A "No Compromise" Message To Congress! We've been through a lot together this year. Remember the media frenzy that kicked in after the Colorado shooting in April? As the weeks passed, gun owners were demonized once again for the actions of a few miscreants. At the national level, the media began relying upon GOA spokesmen almost exclusively to give the pro-gun response to the Columbine tragedy. GOA talking heads appeared on dozens of TV, radio and newspaper outlets. From CBS' This Morning to CNN News, and on countless radio shows around the clock, GOA debated with Handgun Control, Inc. and others who would try to take away the guns of law-abiding citizens. GOA Grassroots Helped Gain Victory In The House At the same time, Gun Owners of America was ginning up its grassroots machine, generating thousands upon thousands of postcards, faxes, emails and phone calls into Congressional offices. For several months, gun owners stood with GOA to lead the charge in opposition to all of the gun control provisions in the juvenile crime bill. GOA activists made it absolutely clear that no compromise would be acceptable. In alert after alert, GOA pounded away at the crime bill, exposing the many ways it would rob gun owners of their Constitutional rights. But the White House was also busy during this time. The President had selected a list of targets, and was relentlessly hounding fellow Democrats in support of greater gun restrictions. Rep. Baron Hill of Indiana was one of the Democrats on that target list. He was a freshman, and he had only won with 51% of the vote in 1998. The White House pressed its case, thinking this conservative Democrat might buckle under the pressure. Thankfully, the President was sorely disappointed. In June, The Washington Times reported what happened, and clearly showed what grassroots action can do: Clinton administration operatives went to [Rep. Hill of Indiana] and told him they had done a survey in his district that showed an overwhelming majority-- 77 percent to 23 percent-supported the gun control legislation. However, Mr. Hill pointed out to them that... his office had received more than 1,100 phone calls against gun control and only a "half dozen or a dozen" in favor. In the end, Mr. Hill joined a substantial number of Democrats who helped block gun-control legislation passed by the Senate. Again, this shows how the grassroots can trump the media and political pressures inside the Beltway! GOA Putting Your Money To Good Use On The Front Lines From its national headquarters in northern Virginia, GOA staff also focused their lobbying efforts on key Congressional offices. GOA's lobbying efforts, combined with a dynamic grassroots campaign, provided the one-two punch that produced the dramatic results that were reported in the June 19 issue of The New Haven Register: Although the Republican House leadership and the NRA urged support for the final version, they were hampered by opposition from [GOA] who were unhappy it required gun safety locks and raised to 21 the legal age for owning a handgun. "Please vote no on passage of HR 2122," urged a letter from Gun Owners of America. And many conservative Republicans did just that. Pro-gun Congressional offices heap praise on GOA and its activists. Following the defeat of the anti-gun crime bill, one Capitol Hill newspaper, Roll Call, surveyed several Congressional offices. This article reported that pro-gun offices on the Hill were quite appreciative of the work done by GOA and its activists. According to the article, Gun Owners of America was labeled "the most aggressive pro-gun lobbying organization," a testimony to the hard work and dedication of its grassroots. This effort by GOA members cannot be underestimated. Roll Call reported that some lobby groups had sold Representatives on the idea that their constituents would "not care" if they voted for gun control. But GOA members were instrumental in disabusing Congressmen of that notion. After an avalanche of postcards, letters, faxes and emails from GOA activists, Representatives realized that people "did care," and these legislators were "not happy" they had been tricked into thinking their constituents would not mind, Roll Call reported. As it stands now, the anti-gun juvenile bill has been buried in a House-Senate conference committee. Many legislators have reported that they don't want to "walk the plank" again, and they are lobbying the leadership to just let the bill die. Of course, this was not the only victory that GOA was involved in. While there were other noteworthy accomplishments at the state and local level that GOA took part in, clearly the victory over the juvenile justice bill was the most significant. GOA and its activists led the fight against this bill; and in all candor, you guys are the reason that the anti-gun juvenile bill has now become a "hot potato." If You're Not Yet A GOA Member, Is It Time You Became One? The ability of GOA to continue putting pressure on politicians depends on loyal activists like yourself. So if you would like to keep up on other issues; if you would like to get our special Fact Sheets which are only provided to GOA members; if you would like to receive our very informative newsletter and get pre-printed postcards that enable you to easily lobby your own Congressmen- even to the point of becoming an "arm chair lobbyist" while watching TV commercials-then please become a GOA member today! Join GOA today online at http://www.gunowners.org/ordergoa.htm or call 703-321-8585. U.S. Representative Ron Paul of Texas says, "Your membership in Gun Owners makes a difference on Capitol Hill every single day.... I know that GOA will continue to be the 'no compromise' leader in defending America's gun rights and personal freedoms." Join online at http://www.gunowners.org/ordergoa.htm ************** Did someone else forward this to you? To be certain of getting up to date information, please consider subscribing to the GOA E-Mail Alert Network directly. There is no cost or obligation, and the volume of mail is quite low. To subscribe, simply send a message to goamail@gunowners.org and include the state in which you live, in either the subject or the body. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: National Forest - KEEP OUT Date: 18 Dec 1999 12:14:00 -0700 ----- National Forest - KEEP OUT If you enjoy any outdoor activities in your National Forests your days are numbered. Bill Clinton is going to put a stop to your recreation with a stroke of the pen. What will be affected? Mountain Biking, Horse Back Riding, ATVs, Motorcycles, Hunting, Fishing, etc. How will he do this? By blocking your access by motorized vehicle to some 50 Million Acres of your own land. It's as simple as that. Think this is more "Black Helicopter" conspiracy ranting? Look at your Forest Service WEB site: http://roadless.fs.fed.us When you look at this WEB site use your head and take the time to look past their simple sounding pronouncements of what they say they are up to. Look at the what they're bragging about in the "in the news" section. Note that this has nothing to do with partisan politics or the right/left battles. This act by Bill Clinton completely bypasses the congress and the checks and balances against abuse of power which are the bases of our freedom. In Part One of this plan, there will be a prohibition on "road building" in National Forests. On the surface this seems like a small thing. But when you see them talk about maintaining the safety of existing roads know that they plan to close all "unmaintained" roads. By doing this thing you will no longer have vehicle access to some 380,000 thousand miles of your own roads. In Part Two they finish the job by banning all "off road vehicles" from use in "roadless" areas. Perhaps you consider yourself an environmentalist and support this. But consider; if you allow this to become law by royal decree, to pass unchallenged, the next time a non-environmentalist President gets into office he can use the same precedent to reverse the will of congress like Clinton by Royal Edict. The sword of tyranny cuts both ways. Maybe you're a mountain biker who thinks this just gets dirt bikers, etc. Don't fall for that "get the other guy" trap. Look at what the folks behind this are really after, the complete prohibition of human activity in our national forests. So they play you against the dirt bike folks, or the hunters against the ATV guys - makes no difference; if those of us who use National Forests for legitimate purposes don't hang together and support each other's rights - we shall all hang separately. YOU MUST ACT TO STOP THIS. HERE'S HOW: 1. Please contact the Blue Ribbon Coalition for the very latest information on the biggest land grab in American history: http://sharetrails.org/choice.html 2. Forward this email to everyone you know. 3. You must send a written objection during the comment period or you will lose your legal standing to object after this passes: Here's how you do it. Use this form: http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/roadless/Roadless_Public_Comment_Form.htm Write your comments to the USDA Forest Service-CAET, Roadless Areas NOI, PO Box 221090, Salt Lake City, Utah, 84122. Fax them at 801-517-1021 email them at roadless/wo_caet-slc@fs.fed.us 4. Call and write to your representatives: http://congress.nw.dc.us/wnd/ 5. Forward this message. Other nifty links to your governments efforts to keep you out of your land: http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/roadless/roadless.html http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/forests991013.html http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/roadless/Roadless_Questions_and_Answers.htm From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia Weapons, see http://www.2ndamendment.net For legislative updates contact http://www.nealknox.com and go to "Scripts from the Firearms Coalition Legislative Update Line" Writing your CONGRESSMAN OR STATE LEGISLATORS can now be accomplished at the speed of light, thanks to WorldNetDaily's new Legislative Action Center: http://congress.nw.dc.us/wnd/ You can call your two Senators at (202) 224-3121 and your Representative at (202) 225-3121 at the Capitol Switchboard. Here is the URL for Congressional Telephone Directory: http://clerkweb.house.gov/106/mbrcmtee/members/teledir/members/cdframe.htm Here are e-mail links to Congress: http://in-search-of.org/ http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ http://www.gunowners.org/mailerx.html The way to protect your own rights is to protect the rights of others. Our right to own and use firearms is under attack. To join please send E-MAil to: listserver@frostbit.com with the following text in the message body: SUBSCRIBE 2nd-Amendment-News To send a message to the list administrator, send E-mail to luz.clark@prodigy.net Feel free to forward our alerts. If you've received this as a forward and wish to subscribe please send a reply to me at luz.clark@prodigy.net or behanna@fast.net Cordially Yours, The 2ndAmendmentNews Team 2ndAmendmentNews is published by volunteer activists who support the full original individual rights intent of the 2nd Amendment and oppose any appeasement on gun rights. The moderators include Chris Behanna, Weldon Clark (an NRA director) and Steve Cicero. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Another Rosie Travesty That You Just Won't Believe! Date: 21 Dec 1999 16:36:29 -0700 Return-path: NJGunsRus@aol.com Full-name: NJGunsRus Message-ID: <0.4acd2c8b.25898647@aol.com> X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline About two weeks ago I got a call from a producer of the Latefah show in = NY=20 City. They wanted to do a show on kids and guns. I was told I was the = ideal=20 family being a gun family with an 8 year old son etc. They sent a = cameraman=20 and producer to my home in Minneapolis and followed me around for two = days.=20 They taped interviews with my wife, myself and 8 year old son and = constantly=20 commented on how we were an ideal family. They showed my home security=20 system, safe and other measures I take to protect my son. Teaching = lethal=20 force for a living we obviously have many guns on the premises. Both men had never touched a gun in their lives being from NY City. In = a=20 short period of time I had them shooting and they LOVED it, and one = intends=20 to buy a gun as soon as the paperwork can clear in NY City. They were=20 surprised by the nice nature of the folks at the range and the family=20 atmosphere. The cost for the two days was substantial with almost = $2,000=20 just in airfare. We were told our taping date in NY City and my wife, my 8 year old son, my = 23=20 year old daughter and myself were flown to New York City. The Motel = cost=20 them $250+ per room, limo from the airport to hotel and to studio, back = to=20 hotel and the airport. Another $2,000+ at least plus meal allowance. Another producer visited us in our hotel room and said they loved us as = a=20 safe gun family and shocked us when they said they would have Eddie = Eagle=20 safety literature under every seat in the audience. Things were looking = up. =20 My son was assured he'd meet movie star Latefah and have his picture = taken=20 with her. We were told we'd be on withone someone that had lost a child or had a = child=20 injured with a gun and to expect some emotional responses. That is not = a=20 problem as I have years of radio-TV experience and my own history of = talk=20 shows. I can handle the best. We were taken to the studios (same ones Rikki Lake uses) and taken to = the=20 green room. My 8 year old son would soon sit there for hours with nothing = to=20 do. He was a great kid. At the end of the hall was a thug hiphop group that would appear on the = show.=20 As I went to the restroom they were on cell phones trying to get bail for = a=20 friend who was in jail. The human debris in the room looked like an = episode=20 of Cops was being taped instead of a talk show. Numerous producers stopped by the green room and were excited about my=20 ability to respond to questions and were excited that I spoke in "sound=20 bites." One producer in the hall told other stafferrs, "wait until this = guy=20 gets on. It will get hot out there." Queen Latifah then did an interview with an 8 year old kid who had taken = a=20 pistol to school in New York City where he traded it for two Pokemon = cards. =20 He admitted to being in a gang, no mother or father at home (old story) = and=20 lived with his grandmother who could not control him. His hero was a 15 = year=20 old gang member and he said he was often in trouble for various things. = =20 We went to makeup, got wired with mikes and told to get ready. The = stage=20 director took us to the lower level and had us stand behind a door. We = were=20 told there were only seconds to go before we walked on stage. Suddenly = the=20 stage director vanished and came back and said, "follow me." We were = taken=20 to the audience and seated. I was shocked to see my daughter also seated = in=20 the audience. Queen Latifah came out and looked into the teleprompter which I would = see.=20 She read around our introduction and adlibbed the introduction of a New = York=20 congressman who had been the defense minister for the Black Panthers. A = woman=20 who had a son commit suicide with a gun over a decade before blubbered = into=20 the camera. =20 Then the thug Hiphop group came out and did a filthy violence ridden = song=20 that made me blush in front of my 8 year old. As the show ended the 8 = year=20 old that had taken a gun to school was showered with love and praise = and=20 allowed to meet his thug Hiphop hero's and given CD's and T-shirts = among=20 other things. My kid who had done nothing but act in a responsible = manner=20 around guns and taken his safety training etc., got ingored. Queen = Latefah=20 blew past him, ignored him, and us. We were hustled to the limo like=20 burglars in the night and whisked to the airport. Even some of the = friendly=20 producers were in total shock and stunned. We asked what had happened and we were told the decision to blow us off = the=20 show with the NRA rep they had flown in from national headquarters had = come=20 from the very "top." This show is a Time-Warner situation we will note. My wife lost her cool and laid into them for how the 8 year old taking a = gun=20 to school was a hero and smothered with attention etc., and the kid that = did=20 it right was ignored and insulted and hurt by not meeting a movie star = as=20 promised. The producers had no response. =20 One thing did come out as we waited for the limos to arrive and I suspect = it=20 was not by accident. The Queen Latefah show is a produce of Rosie = O'Donnel=20 who just happened to be in NY City that day for a Christmas party at = Frank's=20 Cafe. Her and Latefah are old "chums" with strong business and possibly=20= "personal" connections. Suddenly the lights came on. It was pretty obvious what happened and = would=20 clearly explain why they blew off the substantial cost to support their=20 ongoing liberal agenda. At least we got about $10K of her money. There is no question in this case that Time-Warner and Rosie O'Donnel=20 strongly supported and strongly backed up the behavior of a 8 year old to = be=20 in a gang and take a gun to school. The kid named Jeremy even said that = part=20 of going up the ranks in a gang was your popularity and notoriety which = the=20 show will greatly enhance. If this is exposed Rosie and Time Warner = will=20 have a hell of a time trying to weasel out of this. In their hand they = had=20 two kids of the SAME age and one took a gun to school and is in a gang, = and=20 the other is a good student and doing everything right. One got the = star=20 treatment, one got blown off and ignored. There isn't a lie big enough. I thought at first it may have been something towards me, but to hustle = the=20 NRA rep out the door as well made it clear it was purely a political = anti-gun=20 agenda that someone at the last possible second acted upon. And the = media=20 wonders why shooters don't trust them and think they are anti-gun. If = anyone=20 wants more info, contact me I even have pictures I took. Darrell E. Mulroy Plus P Technology Inc. Mpls, Minn. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Another Rosie Travesty That You Just Won't Believe! Date: 21 Dec 1999 19:28:00 -0700 more readable ----- About two weeks ago I got a call from a producer of the Latefah show in NY City. They wanted to do a show on kids and guns. I was told I was the ideal family being a gun family with an 8 year old son etc. They sent a cameraman and producer to my home in Minneapolis and followed me around for two days. They taped interviews with my wife, myself and 8 year old son and constantly commented on how we were an ideal family. They showed my home security system, safe and other measures I take to protect my son. Teaching lethal force for a living we obviously have many guns on the premises. Both men had never touched a gun in their lives being from NY City. In a short period of time I had them shooting and they LOVED it, and one intends to buy a gun as soon as the paperwork can clear in NY City. They were surprised by the nice nature of the folks at the range and the family atmosphere. The cost for the two days was substantial with almost $2,000 just in airfare. We were told our taping date in NY City and my wife, my 8 year old son, my 23 year old daughter and myself were flown to New York City. The Motel cost them $250+ per room, limo from the airport to hotel and to studio, back to hotel and the airport. Another $2,000+ at least plus meal allowance. Another producer visited us in our hotel room and said they loved us as a safe gun family and shocked us when they said they would have Eddie Eagle safety literature under every seat in the audience. Things were looking up. My son was assured he'd meet movie star Latefah and have his picture taken with her. We were told we'd be on with someone that had lost a child or had a child injured with a gun and to expect some emotional responses. That is not a problem as I have years of radio-TV experience and my own history of talk shows. I can handle the best. We were taken to the studios (same ones Rikki Lake uses) and taken to the green room. My 8 year old son would soon sit there for hours with nothing to do. He was a great kid. At the end of the hall was a thug hiphop group that would appear on the show. As I went to the restroom they were on cell phones trying to get bail for a friend who was in jail. The human debris in the room looked like an episode of Cops was being taped instead of a talk show. Numerous producers stopped by the green room and were excited about my ability to respond to questions and were excited that I spoke in "sound bites." One producer in the hall told other staffers, "wait until this guy gets on. It will get hot out there." Queen Latifah then did an interview with an 8 year old kid who had taken a pistol to school in New York City where he traded it for two Pokemon cards. He admitted to being in a gang, no mother or father at home (old story) and lived with his grandmother who could not control him. His hero was a 15 year old gang member and he said he was often in trouble for various things. We went to makeup, got wired with mikes and told to get ready. The stage director took us to the lower level and had us stand behind a door. We were told there were only seconds to go before we walked on stage. Suddenly the stage director vanished and came back and said, "follow me." We were taken to the audience and seated. I was shocked to see my daughter also seated in the audience. Queen Latifah came out and looked into the teleprompter which I would see. She read around our introduction and adlibbed the introduction of a New York congressman who had been the defense minister for the Black Panthers. A woman who had a son commit suicide with a gun over a decade before blubbered into the camera. Then the thug Hiphop group came out and did a filthy violence ridden song that made me blush in front of my 8 year old. As the show ended the 8 year old that had taken a gun to school was showered with love and praise and allowed to meet his thug Hiphop heroes and given CDs and T-shirts among other things. My kid who had done nothing but act in a responsible manner around guns and taken his safety training etc., got ignored. Queen Latefah blew past him, ignored him, and us. We were hustled to the limo like burglars in the night and whisked to the airport. Even some of the friendly producers were in total shock and stunned. We asked what had happened and we were told the decision to blow us off the show with the NRA rep they had flown in from national headquarters had come from the very "top." This show is a Time-Warner situation we will note. My wife lost her cool and laid into them for how the 8 year old taking a gun to school was a hero and smothered with attention etc., and the kid that did it right was ignored and insulted and hurt by not meeting a movie star as promised. The producers had no response. One thing did come out as we waited for the limos to arrive and I suspect it was not by accident. The Queen Latefah show is a product of Rosie O'Donnell who just happened to be in NY City that day for a Christmas party at Frank's Cafe. Her and Latefah are old "chums" with strong business and possibly "personal" connections. Suddenly the lights came on. It was pretty obvious what happened and would clearly explain why they blew off the substantial cost to support their ongoing liberal agenda. At least we got about $10K of her money. There is no question in this case that Time-Warner and Rosie O'Donnell strongly supported and strongly backed up the behavior of a 8 year old to be in a gang and take a gun to school. The kid named Jeremy even said that part of going up the ranks in a gang was your popularity and notoriety which the show will greatly enhance. If this is exposed Rosie and Time Warner will have a hell of a time trying to weasel out of this. In their hand they had two kids of the SAME age and one took a gun to school and is in a gang, and the other is a good student and doing everything right. One got the star treatment, one got blown off and ignored. There isn't a lie big enough. I thought at first it may have been something towards me, but to hustle the NRA rep out the door as well made it clear it was purely a political anti-gun agenda that someone at the last possible second acted upon. And the media wonders why shooters don't trust them and think they are anti- gun. If anyone wants more info, contact me I even have pictures I took. Darrell E. Mulroy Plus P Technology Inc. Mpls, Minn. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: DN: Gun issues remain vibrant Date: 21 Dec 1999 21:26:00 -0700 http://www.desnews.com/dn/print/1,1442,145012977,00.html Deseret News, Tuesday, December 21, 1999, 12:00 AM MST Gun issues remain vibrant Deseret News editorial Contrary to some recent reports, the debate over gun issues is alive and well on Utah's Capitol Hill. Although public opinion polls show that a majority of Utahns want the Legislature to ban concealed-carry permit holders from toting guns in public schools and churches, there appears to be little will among Republican lawmakers, who hold the majority of the seats in the House and Senate, to revisit the issue. Gov. Mike Leavitt, who at one point pressed for a special session on gun-control issues, recognizes he doesn't have the votes to pursue his earlier agenda. Yet Leavitt has been seen by some as retreating from gun issues. In reality, he's being impugned for cutting his losses. The challenge now becomes holding the Legislature to three pieces of legislation that would enhance background checks of gun buyers. The bills were endorsed by the Interim Judiciary Committee in August and will be introduced during the 2000 Legislature. Beyond that, lawmakers must be persuaded to spend additional money to enhance services for the mentally ill and to conduct more extensive background checks of gun buyers, as Leavitt has outlined in his proposed budget. Democrats have vowed to revisit the concealed-carry issue during the 2000 session, but it is highly unlikely to go anywhere, despite overwhelming public support for the measure. More than likely, partisan politics will doom any bill sponsored by a Democrat. Meanwhile, a grass-roots effort to place the concealed-carry issue on the 2000 general election ballot is moving forward. Organizers need more than 67,000 signatures to place the issue befor Utah voters. Proponents of the initiative backers are attempting to collect all of the needed signatures by the start of the 2000 legislative session. If they are successful, their efforts should send a powerful message to lawmakers. Public opinion polls conducted by Dan Jones & Associates have repeatedly shown that a majority of Utahns don't want guns in schools and churches, no matter if the owner holds a concealed-carry permit. The gun lobby perceives such legislation as a threat to the Second Amendment, and gun dealers report an increase in sales and concealed- carry permit applications as a result of debate over the issue. People who are legally entitled to own guns should be able to purchase them. These bills would widen the net for people whose access to weapons should be restricted -- people convicted of violent misdemeanors, people who have been civilly committed for mental illness. A third bill would include juvenile criminal records in background checks. The proposed initiative is more controversial, but we have maintained it, too, is needed. Guns do not belong in schools or places of worship. Copyright 1999, Deseret News Publishing Corp. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: FW: USSC Action Alert Date: 23 Dec 1999 11:05:36 -0700 Don't know if this has been seen here yet. Apologies for any duplication. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy --------- Forwarded message ---------- Sorry for the delay. It's still a valid concern ---------- USSC Action Alert - 12/21/99 Misdemeanor Prohibition on the Purchase or Possession of Firearms On November 17th the Utah Interim Judiciary Committee approved a bill (now called Senate Bill 79)that will impose a three year ban on "purchase, transfer, possession, use...custody or control" of any gun for people convicted of any one of 33 misdemeanors. On the bright side, he committee did drastically reduce the number of misdemeanors from the list originally proposed by Governor Leavitt. Also, these misdemeanors will only impose a ban for three years after the date of conviction. However, it is still completely unacceptable. You need to call the members of the Utah House and Senate Judiciary Committees and tell them that you oppose any bill that makes the conviction of misdemeanors a prohibition to purchasing or possessing firearms. You also need to call your individual state representative and state senator and tell them the same. If you do not know the name of your individual state representative and state senator call your county clerks office to get that information, or you can look it up using links on our web site (www.UtahShootingSports.org) One Senator reported that phone calls to the committee have been running 10 to 1 in favor of more gun control. We need to light up their phones to let them know that the vocal minority of anti-gun zealots does not speak for Utahns. Many of the committee members have been very supportive of gun owners in the past so it is very important to be polite in your communications with them. Many of these committee members boldly voted against Governor Leavitt's call for a special session of the legislature to pass more gun control, so they are not all bad guys. The full text of this bill (SB 79) is available on the Utah Legislature site http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2000/bills/sbillint/SB0079.htm The Utah Shooting Sports Council is strongly opposed to having citizens loose their right to keep and bear arms for the conviction of misdemeanors. We feel that if specific misdemeanor crimes warrant the loss of civil rights then those crimes should be elevated to the level of felonies. Historically the loss of civil rights has been for conviction of felonies, not misdemeanors. If this list of misdemeanors approved as a three year ban, you can be certain that the anti-gun zealots will be back every year to add more offenses to the list, and raise the ban from three years to forever. This bill is a potential threat to every gun owner in the state. The Utah Shooting Sports Council is urging the legislature to do something constructive to reduce gun violence. We are encouraging them to support vigorous enforcement of existing laws to get armed criminals off the streets. Utah is NOT prosecuting convicted felons who try to buy guns. The "Violent Misdemeanor" bill's sponsor has even admitted that he doubts if anyone would be prosecuted under it. Then why pass it at all? The Utah Legislature will be back in session January 17th. It is imperative that they start hearing from gun owners now. Below is a list of the committee members. Please contact all of them. If you call a few every day it won't be to much work. Remember getting mad about gun control accomplishes nothing. You need to take action. Contact these committee members. Tell them that you oppose any bill that restricts gun right based on a misdemeanor. UTAH SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Senator Terry Spencer, Chair 1110 N Kimberly Dr. Layton, Utah 84302 543-4450 tspencer@le.state.ut.us Senator Parley Hellewell 492 S 1000 W Orem, Utah 84058 226-3034 phellewe@le.state.ut.us Senator Lyle Hillyard 175 East First North Logan, Utah 84321 H-753-0043 O-752-2610 lhillyar@le.state.ut.us Senator John Valentine 857 East 970 North Orem, Utah 84057 H-224-1693 jvalenti@le.state.ut.us Senator Mike Dmitrich 566 North Dover Circle Price, Utah 84501 H-637-0426 O-637-2875 mdmitric@le.state.ut.us Senator Pete Suazo 1307 Garnette Street Salt Lake City UT 84116 H 521-3751 O 328-8181 psuazo@le.state.ut.us UTAH HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE Representative A. Lamont Tyler, Chair 3810 Eastwood Lane Salt Lake City, Utah 84109 H 801-272-1218 O 801-581-6920 (fax) 801-585-9291 lamont.tyler@m.cc.utah.edu Representative Glenn L. Way, Vice Chair 348 South 1480 East Spanish Fork, Utah 84660 H 801-798-2295 gway@le.state.ut.us Representative John Swallow 1260 East Bell View Circle Sandy, Utah 84094 H 801-572-8201 O 801-553-9805 F 801-571-6545 law@silversage.com Representative Katherine Bryson 833 South 300 West Orem, Utah 84058 H 801-226-2061 kbryson@le.state.ut.us Representative Martin Stephens (also Speaker of the House) 3159 North Higley Road Farr West, Utah 84404 H 801-731-5346 O 801-524-2626 F 801-594-8229 mstephen@le.state.ut.us Representative Bill Hickman 214 North Emeraud Dr. St. George, Utah 84770 H 435-673-2671 O 435-674-5200 Representative Chad Bennion 136 East 4800 South Murray, Utah 84107 H 801-281-1607 O 801-264-2678 F 801-288-2144 cbennion@slc.quik.com Representative Greg Curtis P.O. Box 2084 Sandy, Utah 84091 H 801-943-3091 O 801-569-5141 gcurtis@le.state.ut.us Representative Patrice Arent 6281 South Havenbrook Circle Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 H 801-272-1956 O 801-272-1956 F 801-272-4450 parent@le.state.ut.us Representative Neal Hendrickson 3402 West 4100 South West Valley City, Utah 84119 H 801-969-8920 nhendric@le.state.ut.us Representative Gary Cox 4468 Tidwell Street Kearns, Utah 84118-5233 H 801-967-9760 O 801-569-5216 garyc@wjordan.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: USSC Action Alert Date: 22 Dec 1999 23:13:00 -0700 USSC Action Alert - 12/21/99 Misdemeanor Prohibition on the Purchase or Possession of Firearms On November 17th the Utah Interim Judiciary Committee approved a bill (now called Senate Bill 79) that will impose a three year ban on "purchase, transfer, possession, use... custody or control" of any gun for people convicted of any one of 33 misdemeanors. On the bright side, the committee did drastically reduce the number of misdemeanors from the list originally proposed by Governor Leavitt. Also, these misdemeanors will only impose a ban for three years after the date of conviction. However, it is still completely unacceptable. You need to call the members of the Utah House and Senate Judiciary Committees and tell them that you oppose any bill that makes the conviction of misdemeanors a prohibition to purchasing or possessing firearms. You also need to call your individual state representative and state senator and tell them the same. If you do not know the name of your individual state representative and state senator call your county clerks office to get that information, or you can look it up using links on our web site (www.UtahShootingSports.org) One Senator reported that phone calls to the committee have been running 10 to 1 in favor of more gun control. We need to light up their phones to let them know that the vocal minority of anti-gun zealots does not speak for Utahns. Many of the committee members have been very supportive of gun owners in the past so it is very important to be polite in your communications with them. Many of these committee members boldly voted against Governor Leavitt's call for a special session of the legislature to pass more gun control, so they are not all bad guys. The full text of this bill (SB 79) is available on the Utah Legislature site http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2000/bills/sbillint/SB0079.htm The Utah Shooting Sports Council is strongly opposed to having citizens lose their right to keep and bear arms for the conviction of misdemeanors. We feel that if specific misdemeanor crimes warrant the loss of civil rights then those crimes should be elevated to the level of felonies. Historically the loss of civil rights has been for conviction of felonies, not misdemeanors. If this list of misdemeanors is approved as a three year ban, you can be certain that the anti-gun zealots will be back every year to add more offenses to the list, and raise the ban from three years to forever. This bill is a potential threat to every gun owner in the state. The Utah Shooting Sports Council is urging the legislature to do something constructive to reduce gun violence. We are encouraging them to support vigorous enforcement of existing laws to get armed criminals off the streets. Utah is NOT prosecuting convicted felons who try to buy guns. The "Violent Misdemeanor" bill's sponsor has even admitted that he doubts if anyone would be prosecuted under it. Then why pass it at all? The Utah Legislature will be back in session January 17th. It is imperative that they start hearing from gun owners now. Below is a list of the committee members. Please contact all of them. If you call a few every day it won't be too much work. Remember getting mad about gun control accomplishes nothing. You need to take action. Contact these committee members. Tell them that you oppose any bill that restricts gun rights based on a misdemeanor. UTAH SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Senator Terry Spencer, Chair 1110 N Kimberly Dr. Layton, Utah 84302 543-4450 tspencer@le.state.ut.us Senator Parley Hellewell 492 S 1000 W Orem, Utah 84058 226-3034 phellewe@le.state.ut.us Senator Lyle Hillyard 175 East First North Logan, Utah 84321 H-753-0043 O-752-2610 lhillyar@le.state.ut.us Senator John Valentine 857 East 970 North Orem, Utah 84057 H-224-1693 jvalenti@le.state.ut.us Senator Mike Dmitrich 566 North Dover Circle Price, Utah 84501 H-637-0426 O-637-2875 mdmitric@le.state.ut.us Senator Pete Suazo 1307 Garnette Street Salt Lake City UT 84116 H 521-3751 O 328-8181 psuazo@le.state.ut.us UTAH HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE Representative A. Lamont Tyler, Chair 3810 Eastwood Lane Salt Lake City, Utah 84109 H 801-272-1218 O 801-581-6920 (fax) 801-585-9291 lamont.tyler@m.cc.utah.edu Representative Glenn L. Way, Vice Chair 348 South 1480 East Spanish Fork, Utah 84660 H 801-798-2295 gway@le.state.ut.us Representative John Swallow 1260 East Bell View Circle Sandy, Utah 84094 H 801-572-8201 O 801-553-9805 F 801-571-6545 law@silversage.com Representative Katherine Bryson 833 South 300 West Orem, Utah 84058 H 801-226-2061 kbryson@le.state.ut.us Representative Martin Stephens (also Speaker of the House) 3159 North Higley Road Farr West, Utah 84404 H 801-731-5346 O 801-524-2626 F 801-594-8229 mstephen@le.state.ut.us Representative Bill Hickman 214 North Emeraud Dr. St. George, Utah 84770 H 435-673-2671 O 435-674-5200 Representative Chad Bennion 136 East 4800 South Murray, Utah 84107 H 801-281-1607 O 801-264-2678 F 801-288-2144 cbennion@slc.quik.com Representative Greg Curtis P.O. Box 2084 Sandy, Utah 84091 H 801-943-3091 O 801-569-5141 gcurtis@le.state.ut.us Representative Patrice Arent 6281 South Havenbrook Circle Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 H 801-272-1956 O 801-272-1956 F 801-272-4450 parent@le.state.ut.us Representative Neal Hendrickson 3402 West 4100 South West Valley City, Utah 84119 H 801-969-8920 nhendric@le.state.ut.us Representative Gary Cox 4468 Tidwell Street Kearns, Utah 84118-5233 H 801-967-9760 O 801-569-5216 garyc@wjordan.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOUtah! Alert #38 - 22 December 1999 1/2 Date: 25 Dec 1999 16:15:00 -0700 GOUtah! Gun Owners of Utah Utah's Uncompromising, Independent Gun Rights Network. No Compromise. No Retreat. No Surrender. Not Now. Not Ever. Visit our website at http://www.slpsa.org/goutah! GOUtah! Alert #38 - 22 December 1999 Today's Voice of Liberty: "We must have government, but we must watch them like a hawk" -- Millicent Fenwick If you wish to be added to the GOUtah! list, please log onto our website at http://www.slpsa.org/goutah! or send an e-mail to GOUtah3006@aol.com or send a fax to (801) 944-9937 asking to be added to the GOUtah! list. We strongly encourage you to forward, copy and share this information with others, on the condition that you pass along the entire document intact and unmodified, and that GOUtah! is clearly indicated as the original source of the material, unless otherwise noted. GOUtah! and US-DIN! Meet with Utah DPS/BCI Management on CCW Issues and Concerns Representatives of GOUtah! and US-DIN! met for nearly two hours on Friday 17 December 1999 with representatives of Utah Department of Public Safety/BCI Division on issues of concern regarding the Utah CCW program. The meeting was generally cordial, with GOUtah! and US-DIN! presenting a clear and united front in support of the rights and interests of Utah's CCW instructors and permit holders. The lines of communication with this regulatory agency are now open and we will keep you posted as to our ongoing efforts to effectively deal with these issues. White House Prepares To Launch "All-Out Offensive" Against Second Amendment From the NRA-ILA FAX ALERT-Vol. 6, No. 49 12/17/99 The Clinton-Gore Administration is clearly frustrated over its inability this year to advance legislation attacking our right to keep and bear arms. Now it appears that its frustration is being transformed into action above and beyond the well-publicized lawsuit aimed at intimidating the firearms industry (see FAX Alert Vol. 6, No. 48 for details on the Clinton-Gore-HUD lawsuit threat). According to a Dec. 15 Washington Post story, an unnamed but "senior White House official" stated that the Administration will "prepare an all-out offensive on guns in the coming year." The meeting was run by White House Chief of Staff John D. Podesta, and include Domestic Policy Chief Bruce N. Reed, Deputy Treasury Secretary Stuart E. Eizenstat, Deputy Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr., Vice Presidential Counsel Charles W. Burson, Presidential Adviser Joel Johnson, and HUD Secretary Andrew M. Cuomo. The White House official stated that Podesta would ask those attending the meeting "to come up with a series of actions to build pressure on the gun industry for an agreement and intensify the pressure on Congress to break the logjam on the gun bill and provide the president with a series of executive actions he can take in the weeks and months to come." While the source would not give details, he did state that the Clinton-Gore plan would include extra spending by the Department of Justice and Department of the Treasury. However, White House Press Secretary Joe Lockhart tipped the President's hand somewhat, when he stated in a Dec. 15 press conference that, "We're exploring using...our executive authority invested in the President...." The White House is convinced the public wants more "gun control," even though public opinion polls state otherwise, and Americans seem especially united in their opposition to using the courts to attack lawful businesses such as gun manufacturers. A recent poll by the Tarrance Group, for example, found that 84% of the public feels that people who use firearms illegally should be held responsible, and only 5% feel that manufacturers or retailers should be held responsible for third-party firearm misuse. And in a Dec. 17 editorial, even the Washington Post came out against the Clinton-Gore team's threatened suit. While the Post is in full support of increasing restrictions on law-abiding gun owners, going so far as to support handgun bans, it concedes that Congress, not the courts, is the appropriate venue for making such public policy changes. The editorial refers to the Clinton-Gore-HUD suit as "an abuse of a valuable system, one that could make it less valuable as people come to view the legal system as nothing more than an arm of policymakers." GOUtah! Note: For more complete background information on the Clinton White House anti-gun agenda see: http://www.whitehouse.gov/library/ThisWeek.cgi?type=b&date=0&briefing=2 [ Continued In Next Message... ] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOUtah! Alert #38 - 22 December 1999 2/2 Date: 25 Dec 1999 16:15:00 -0700 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] It's Your National Forest - KEEP OUT! Received 18 December 1999 from Weldon Clark, Member of the NRA Board of Directors If you enjoy any outdoor activities in your National Forests your days are numbered. Bill Clinton is going to put a stop your recreation with a stroke of the pen. What will be effected? Mountain Biking, Horse Back Riding, ATV's, Motorcycles, Hunting, Fishing, etc. How will he do this? By blocking your access by motorized vehicle to some 50 Million Acres of your own land. It's as simple as that. Think this is more "Black Helicopter" conspiracy ranting? Look at your Forest Service WEB site: http://www.roadless.fs.fed.us When you look at this WEB site use your head and take the time to look past their simple sounding pronouncements of what they say they are up to. Look at what they're bragging about in the "in the news" section. Note that this has nothing to do with partisan politics or the right/left battles. This act by Bill Clinton completely bypasses the congress and the checks and balances against abuse of power which are the bases of our freedom. In Part One of this plan, there will be a prohibition on "road building" in National Forests. On the surface this seems like a small thing. But when you see them talk about maintaining the safety of existing roads know that they plan to close all "unmaintained" roads. By doing thing this you will no longer have vehicle access to some 380,000 miles of your own roads. In Part Two they finish the job by banning all "off road vehicles" from use in "roadless" areas. Perhaps you consider yourself an environmentalist and support this. But consider; if you allow this to become law by royal decree, to pass unchallenged, the next time a non-environmentalist President gets into office he can use the same precedent to reverse the will of congress like Clinton by Royal Edict. The sword of tyranny cuts both ways. Maybe you're a mountain biker who thinks this just gets dirt bikers, etc. Don't fall for that "get the other guy" trap. Look at what the folks behind this are really after, the complete prohibition of human activity in our national forests. So they play you against the dirt bike folks, or the hunters against the ATV guys - makes no difference; if those of us who use National Forests for legitimate purposes don't hang together and support each other's rights - we shall all hang separately. YOU MUST ACT TO STOP THIS. HERE'S HOW: 1. Please contact the Blue Ribbon Coalition for the very latest information on the biggest land grab in American history: http://www.sharetrails.org/choice.html 2. Forward this email to everyone you know. 3. You must send a written objection during the comment period or you will lose your legal standing to object after this passes: Here's how you do it. Use this form: http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/roadless/Roadless_Public_Comment_Form.ht Write your comments to the: USDA Forest Service-CAET, Roadless Areas NOI, PO Box 221090, Salt Lake City, Utah, 84122. Fax them at 801-517-1021 email them at: roadless/wo_caet-slc@fs.fed.us 4. Call and write to your U.S. Congressional Delegation, especially Jim Hansen (R-1st District of Utah): http://www.congress.nw.dc.us/wnd/ 5. Forward this message. Other nifty links to your governments efforts to keep you out of your land: http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/roadless/roadless.html http://www.more.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/forests991013.html http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/roadless/Roadless_Questions_and_Answers.htm GOUtah Note: Regardless of where you stand on the Utah environmental and wilderness debate, remember that if you don't have private vehicle access to public lands, they in essence become private, restricted reserves. No one is going to walk from Salt Lake to Delta or Dirtwater with all their hunting gear or camping kit on their back. If you can't get to where you're going with a private vehicle. you're out of luck. Act on this today. Give the Gift of Freedom for Christmas We at GOUtah! wish you and yours a very happy holiday season. While the holidays are indeed hectic and sometimes the real meaning gets lost in the commercial clutter, GOUtah! suggests you gather your loved ones around you and tell them what the gift of freedom means to you. Discuss as a family what you can do today to insure the gift of freedom is passed to the next generation tomorrow. Set aside the price of at least one Christmas present this year and donate that cost to a worthwhile cause, one actively involved in protecting gun rights and individual freedom. A local or national gun-rights group, a local or state pro-gun political candidate, a youth firearms program or some other similar cause would very much appreciate your financial support and involvement. Buy a friend a membership in the NRA or some other gun rights group. Buy a friend a gun-rights book. Take a friend shooting. Buy them a Utah CCW training class. Become a pro-gun delegate in your political party. Volunteer your time to a pro-gun candidate's campaign or to a gun-rights organization. Give the gift of freedom every Christmas! It starts with you! GOUtah! Gun Rights (and Wrongs) QuoteWatch. "Yeah, (Leavitt's) finally heard the message. It's not a new message, but I think he's clearly heard it this time." -- Rob Bishop, Chair of the Utah Republican Party, regarding Gov. Mike Leavitt's public retreat from his vocal leadership of the Utah anti-gun movement, as reported in the Salt Lake Tribune, 18 December 1999 "I think the conservative faction has frightened the governor, and made him feel squeamish about his own leadership." -- Ted Wilson, Director of the Hinkley Institute of Politics at the University of Utah, and the spokesperson for the Utah anti-gun petition coalition, as reported in the same article in the Salt Lake Tribune, 18 December 1999 "I can see now (Leavitt) has no stomach for such a fight." -- Steve Gunn, spokesperson for Utahns Against Gun Violence, from comments made in the Salt Lake Tribune, 17 December 1999. This concludes the GOUtah! Political and Legislative Alert #38 - 22 December 1999. We hope this information will be of assistance to you in defending your firearms rights. Remember that getting this information is meaningless unless YOU ACT ON IT TODAY. If you just read it and dump it in the trash, your gun rights, and the gun rights of future generations go in the trash with it. Get involved, get active and get vocal! Copyright 1999 by GOUtah! All rights reserved. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: LPU: Fwd: UPS needs your "e-mail gift" ASAP! Date: 25 Dec 1999 16:15:00 -0700 ----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [Sorry, munging in transmission corrupts that.] GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE !!ALERT!! Chris W. Stark - Director P.O. Box 1924 Crosby, Texas 77532-1924 Ph. (281) 787-4111 Fax (281) 328-7505 http://www.GOA-Texas.org email: Director@GOA-Texas.org 12/24/1999 UPS needs your "e-mail gift" ASAP! Copyright 1999 by Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). Republication permitted ONLY if this e-mail alert is left intact in its original state. Since it is the season for giving (supposedly), we certainly hope you have remembered our Boycott against UPS, and have given them the gift of your e-mail, like the one below from a dedicated activist who subscribes to the GOA-Texas e-mail alerts. For those of you who would like to read about this boycott, go to: http://www.goa-texas.org/UPS-5.htm http://www.goa-texas.org/UPS-6.htm If you cannot access websites, e-mail us that you would like us to e-mail you the old alerts, and we will do so. Here are the e-mail addresses for UPS, AirBorne Express and RPS. Give them the gift they so richly deserve: Your disgust for their anti-gun policies. National Media Relations - Norman Black Voice - 404-828-7593 Pager - 888-856-8816 E-Mail - norman.black@ups.com International Media Relations - John Flick Voice - 404-828-6346 E-Mail - jflick@ups.com Reputation Management - Peggy Gardner Voice - 404-828-6051 E-Mail - pgardner@ups.com Marketing and Olympics - Susan Rosenberg Voice - 404-828-6130 E-Mail - srosenberg@ups.com Executive Communications - Steve Soltis Voice - 404-828-4029 E-Mail - ssoltis@ups.com Public Affairs - Tad Segal Voice - 202-675-3381 E-Mail - tsegal@corpmail.ups.com Information Technology - Joan Schnorbus Voice - 201-828-4937 E-Mail - com1jns@is.ups.com Louisville, Kentucky UPS Airline - Ken Shapero Voice - 502-329-6522 E-Mail - air2kes@air.ups.com Here is the RPS e-mail WEB FORM to tell them the good news: http://www.shiprps.com/cgi-win/rcu100ex.exe?func=3Dentry (previous e-mail address we gave for RPS has been blocked!) ["=3D" is also a result of munging, but I don't know the correction] Here are some AIRBORNE EXPRESS e-mail addresses to tell them the good news: cac.web@airborne.com webmaster@airborne.com THE UPS BOYCOTT LIVES ON!!! Dear Sir, I just finished shipping the last of my Christmas gifts last week. I wanted to let you know that I avoided UPS and spent $30.32 to ship via the US Postal Service specifically because of your recent actions regarding the shipping of handguns. While my $30.32 means very little to you, there are over 60 million gun owners in America, and many of us have sworn to boycott your company. There are other simple and effective actions that you could have taken to combat theft of handguns shipped via your company - actions that would not dump the entire burden and cost on legitimate handgun consumers. Instead, you chose to require all handguns to be shipped by your expensive next-day air option. This is your choice to make - just as the choice is mine to make to refuse to do business with a company hostile to gun owners and the gun industry. If your company should chose to adopt a more reasonable approach to securing handgun shipments, I may bring my business back to UPS. Until that time, every gift and business package I have to ship will be carried by the US Postal Service. Sincerely, (name omitted for privacy) Help Support the work of Gun Owners Alliance! Go to: http://www.goa-texas.org/members.htm Copyright 1999 by Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). Republication permitted ONLY if this e-mail alert is left intact in its original state. The views herein do not necessarily reflect the views of any other individual or organization, than Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). We do not officially represent Gun Owners of America. Go to http://www.goa-texas.org/TXsig.htm for more information. TO SUBSCRIBE TO OUR E-MAIL ALERTS, send an e-mail to: subscribe@GOA-Texas.org ...and in the body of the message, type the word "subscribe". - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: WARNING: UPS theft problem damages your rights 2/2 Date: 27 Dec 1999 11:23:00 -0700 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] biggest federal gun-trafficking investigation in Maryland in years. "It was of major significance to us," she said. "The sole purpose of getting these guns on the street was to put them in the hands of criminals. The fact that you had so many guns out there, it brings up people's greatest fears." Battaglia said she met with UPS officials last summer to discuss ways to prevent thefts. She praised the company's new shipping policy for guns. "I was amazed at how responsive they were," she said. UPS says it aggressively investigates all reports of stolen or missing firearms. But the local gun dealer whose shipments were stolen at Landover said he also had trouble getting UPS to investigate the missing weapons. According to documents filed in federal court, the thieves at the UPS distribution center at 8325 Ardwick-Ardmore Rd. began discreetly, taking a gun or two at a time, spaced several days apart. The first gun -- a Smith & Wesson .357-caliber revolver -- was taken on Feb. 18, when a box addressed to Maryland Small Arms, an Upper Marlboro gun dealer, vanished from the premises. Eight days later, a UPS driver delivered another package to Maryland Small Arms that had been sent by Springfield, Mass.-based Smith & Wesson. The gun dealer refused the package, because the box had been tampered with. Two 9mm semiautomatic pistols were later determined to be missing, according to court records. Three UPS package loaders -- Darris Marlon Banks, 19, of Temple Hills; Carlos Ramon Jones, 28, of Landover; and Anthony Rondell Barnett, 28, of Lothian -- have been convicted in the weapon thefts. All worked the overnight shift at Landover, making $10.75 an hour. Banks was the first to figure out that packages addressed to Maryland Small Arms contained firearms and that they were easy to steal, according to court records. He tipped off Barnett, who pulled Jones into the scheme. On March 3, according to affidavits filed by the ATF, Banks grabbed a box off the conveyor belt and carried it into the back of a brown UPS delivery truck on the loading line. All three men jumped inside, where Banks sliced open the package and pulled out four Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistols. Banks handed the weapons to Barnett, who in turn gave them to Jones, according to court records. Jones took off his jacket and stuffed the guns in the sleeves so he could sneak them out of the building. The workers re-sealed the empty package. Later that morning, it was delivered to Maryland Small Arms. Carl Roy, a manager at the store, said employees called UPS several times about the gun thefts but couldn't get the company to respond. "UPS wouldn't do anything," he said. "We complained and complained, but they wouldn't even come out to take a report." Meantime, the thieves grew more brazen. On March 19, they stuck a new address label on a package containing 10 Smith & Wesson .357-caliber revolvers and had the whole shipment delivered to Banks's home in Temple Hills, according to court records. On March 24, they did the same thing to a box of nine Beretta semiautomatic pistols that had been ordered by Maryland Small Arms. Authorities say the thieves resold the guns quickly on the street for about $300 on average, a hefty discount from their suggested retail prices of $450 to $650. One of the 9mm semiautomatic pistols that were stolen on Feb. 26 was used less than 36 hours later in a carjacking in Temple Hills, records show. Police say Dante Devon Hamm, 20, of the 2500 block of St. Claire Drive in Temple Hills, stole a 1994 Lexus ES 300 at gunpoint from Johnny's Sub Shop on Iverson Street. D.C. police spotted the car a few hours later and arrested Hamm at the wheel. According to authorities, Hamm bought the pistol from Banks, his longtime neighbor and friend. Hamm has pleaded guilty to federal charges of carjacking and use of a handgun in a crime of violence. He is to be sentenced Jan. 10. Another gun stolen from the UPS distribution center surfaced on May 25, when Prince George's police arrested Kenneth Vincent Francis, 22, of the 2400 block of Iverson Street in Temple Hills, and charged him with possession of cocaine and marijuana, according to authorities. Police say Francis was carrying a Beretta .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol. He later told ATF agents he had bought the gun in early April for $350 from a convicted cocaine dealer who had acquired the firearm from Banks. The UPS gun theft ring was broken up in late March, when ATF agents obtained a search warrant and found two of the stolen weapons at Banks's home in Temple Hills. Banks later cooperated with investigators under a limited-immunity agreement and provided information that led to the arrests of Jones and Barnett. Banks pleaded guilty to one count of possessing stolen firearms and is awaiting sentencing in federal court. Jones pleaded guilty to the same charge and was sentenced to 30 months in prison. Barnett pleaded guilty to one count of theft of firearms and was sentenced to four months in prison. Records also show that Jones had a long criminal history before he was hired by UPS in May 1997. He was convicted of manufacturing and distributing cocaine in November 1990, according to Prince George's County Circuit Court records. Four years later, he was charged with first-degree murder in what prosecutors described as a "drug-related homicide." The charge was dropped when two witnesses refused to testify, court records show. Godlewski, the UPS spokesman, said the company does conduct background checks of all job applicants. But he acknowledged that some criminals slip by. "UPS believes that most people are honest," he said. "Are bad apples going to get through? Absolutely." 1999 The Washington Post Company ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- UPS Boycott As you probably know, UPS announced that it no longer accepts ground shipment of handguns. Moreover, for practical purposes air shipment is now likely to require you to go to a UPS office: Handguns may only be shipped via Next Day Air, Next Day Air Early AM and Next Day Saver with the "Adult Signature Required" label properly affixed. Handguns are prohibited from the UPS Ground system, SonicAir BestFlight Service, On-Call Air Pickup, Internet Shipping, Letter Centers (drop Boxes), or One-time Pickup requests. UPS will accept handguns from Daily Pickup accounts & Customer Counters. Packages [with] handguns must be segregated. The driver or clerk must be informed which packages contain handguns. Authorized Shipping Outlets & Commercial Counters are prohibited from accepting any firearms for UPS. UPS Corporate Headquarters United Parcel Service of America, Inc. 55 Glenlake Parkway, NE Atlanta, GA 30328 1-800-PICK-UPS (1-800-742-5877) UPS E-Mail: customer.service@ups.com norman.black@ups.com jflick@ups.com srosenberg@ups.com com1jns@is.ups.com pgardner@ups.com ssoltis@ups.com tsegal@corpmail.ups.com air2kes@air.ups.com RPS e-mail WEB http://www.ups.com AIRBORNE EXPRESS e-mail: cac.web@airborne.com webmaster@airborne.com Also see Leroy Pyle's UPS boycott site http://www.paulrevere.org/boycottups/ From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team Feel free to forward our alerts. What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia Weapons: see http://www.2ndamendment.net To join, send text "SUBSCRIBE 2nd-Amendment-News" to listserver@frostbit.com Cordially Yours, The 2ndAmendmentNews Team - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: WARNING: UPS theft problem damages your rights 1/2 Date: 27 Dec 1999 11:23:00 -0700 ----- WARNING: UPS theft problem damages your rights Here's something to send to your acquaintances: The news article below shows that UPS has a big employee theft problem, which we never would have heard about if they were not stealing firearms. The thefts are not surprising when you consider UPS' attitude and whom they hire to handle your valuables. When nothing happened, the three UPS cargo handlers - one of them a convicted crack dealer - grew bolder... They grabbed entire packages...slapped on new address labels and had [UPS] deliver them home for free... 'UPS wouldn't do anything' [said the gun store manager]...We complained and complained, but they wouldn't even...take a report.' If you used to use UPS in your shipping you might call 1-800-PICK-UPS every time you ship and tell them why you won't be using them. Source: Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/metro/A30332-1999Dec23.html When Guns Don't Arrive at Their Destinations By Craig Whitlock Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, December 24, 1999; Page A1 Even the men convicted of stealing guns from the United Parcel Service distribution center in Landover were surprised by how easy it was to pick them off the conveyor belt and get them out of the building. They started cautiously, slicing open cardboard boxes addressed to a Prince George's County gun shop, removing one or two handguns and taking them out by hiding them under their clothes. When nothing happened, the three UPS cargo handlers -- one of them a convicted crack dealer -- grew bolder, according to affidavits filed in U.S. District Court in Greenbelt. They grabbed entire packages filled with revolvers and semiautomatic pistols, slapped on new address labels and had their employer deliver them home for free. Before they were arrested by federal agents in March and April, the three UPS workers stole 29 handguns and sold them on the streets for $250 to $350. One of the firearms was used in an armed carjacking less than 36 hours after it was stolen from a UPS shipment. Only eight have been recovered. Authorities say the UPS case illustrates how -- despite increasingly strict controls on gun sales to individuals -- package delivery firms, where security is often lax, often are an easy target for criminals intent on obtaining weapons. "Criminals are going to go to the path of least resistance," said Mike Campbell, a spokesman in the Baltimore office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which investigated the UPS thefts. "They are going to find whatever way they can to get the guns. So if they can find somebody on the inside to help them, they will." In 1998, 941 firearms were reported stolen from interstate shipments, most of them from commercial carriers such as UPS, according to ATF figures. But federal officials concede that they have no idea how many of the estimated 5 million guns that are shipped each year by commercial carrier are stolen. Licensed gun dealers and manufacturers are required by federal law to report all firearms thefts to the ATF, but there is no such requirement for package delivery companies. Some carriers report gun thefts voluntarily, but the ATF declined to provide a breakdown on losses reported by each company. "Theft from interstate shipments has always been a problem because there are such large numbers of guns being sent," said Jeffrey R. Roehm, an ATF spokesman in Washington. Roehm said UPS "has been overwhelmingly cooperative" with investigators and has assisted in numerous undercover operations. But he added that it can be difficult to sniff out gun thieves in the company's sprawling shipping network. In general, firearms can be shipped only to licensed dealers, manufacturers and wholesalers. To deter thefts, federal law dictates that packages containing guns must be shipped in plain wrappers that bear no indication of their contents. About 80% of the guns shipped in the United States move through UPS. The U.S. Postal Service is legally barred from shipping handguns through the mail, although it can deliver shotguns and rifles for licensed dealers. UPS spokesman Bob Godlewski said "several hundred" guns are stolen from the Atlanta-based company each year, although he declined to be specific. Many of the thefts in the UPS system, big and small, have proved to be inside jobs plotted by employees. In August, a UPS employee from Charles County was indicted on federal charges of possessing a stolen handgun and crack cocaine after he was shot during an altercation with two ATF agents who were trying to interview him in a firearms trafficking case. Federal authorities say the man, Anthony Gray, 20, of Waldorf, and another UPS worker stole three guns from the company's Waldorf distribution center in July. In 1992, a UPS driver from Alexandria was charged with stealing more than 850 handguns from his route and selling them to finance his crack-cocaine business. Many of the firearms were shipped via UPS by Interarms Inc., of Alexandria, one of the world's largest gun dealerships. The driver, Bernard G. Fuller, was sentenced to 12 years in prison without parole. In October, after the thefts from its Landover distribution center, UPS changed its rules and now requires all handguns to be sent by next-day-air service, the form of delivery also required by Federal Express Corp. and Airborne Freight Corp. That method allows packages to be tracked more closely and reduces the time they are sitting around, making them less vulnerable to thieves, according to UPS officials. Rifles and shotguns, however, can still be sent by standard ground delivery, which is cheaper. But some gun dealers criticized UPS, saying the company has forced them to pay more to have guns delivered overnight but has done little else to improve security. "They're punishing us for their incompetence," said Sanford Abrams, owner of Valley Guns in Towson and vice president of the Maryland Licensed Firearms Dealers Association. "We're livid that we have to pay for UPS's inefficiency and lack of security. They should secure their facilities and check the backgrounds of their employees to make sure they aren't hiring criminals." Godlewski, the UPS spokesman, said the change was made "to minimize the risk, even though it might be more expensive for the consumer. "In the end, it's this game of trying to keep guns out of the bad guys' hands and limiting the number of people who have access to them." He said he did not know how many guns have been stolen since the policy went into effect, but he acknowledged that the new system is not foolproof. "If somebody really wants to get in there, they'll get in there," he said. Indeed, ATF agents and local authorities are still looking for the culprit who stole six handguns in late October from a UPS distribution center in Ventura, Calif. The weapons, which were sent in accordance with UPS's new rules, were addressed to a gun dealership called Shooters Paradise. George Rice, the owner, said that over the past two years, 70 guns being shipped to his two stores through UPS have not been delivered. He criticized the company's security division as slow and lackadaisical. "The people they have checking [the problem], I don't think they could catch anybody if they did it right in front of them," he said. "They would never follow through. Every time I contacted them, it was like, 'Oh, it's no big deal.' It's asinine. Everybody knows the guns are all going right to the streets, to the gangs." U.S. Attorney Lynne A. Battaglia said the UPS case in Landover was the [ Continued In Next Message... ] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry larsen" Subject: CCW instructors Date: 27 Dec 1999 22:25:51 -0700 I read in the paper how the insturctors in "Northern" Utah have come up with some standards for the teaching of the CCW. I live in So Utah, and have never been approached by any of these fellow instructors. So to all of you who care, and also those of you who don't, I give this response. It is my opinion that anyone who wants a CCW should have it. But the state requires that a form of insturction be taken. So in conformance with that there are certian things that are taught. Adding to these requirements is a mistake, whether or not some feel it is for the public good. We should be looking for ways to remove requirements not add to them. The constitution does not state that only people who can hit a certain target at a certain distance have the right to defend themselves. That is STUPID. I don't say that it is ok not to be able to hit what you aim at. But who is to say what is approiate and what is not. I know for a fact that I can outshoot 99% of all the instructors in the state, so should my shooting level be the gauge? Or should we pick someone elses with a lower skill level? If we do, and the permit carrier takes a shot and misses, and hits granny by mistake, should we hold whoever said it was ok to make the standard lower than what I can shoot responsible? I am saying my support for change goes to those who lesson the requirement and come closer to what the constitution is saying, not to a group of instructors who want to be rule makers and dictators. Larry Larsen http://larsenfamily.com/cc/ -