From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Prevent Handgun Violence Date: 02 Oct 2000 23:26:09 -0600 http://www.cphv.com/legacy/legacy.html It'll take a few minutes to load but it is worth it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: The Unnatural Death of a Natural Right Date: 09 Oct 2000 15:42:08 -0600 The Unnatural Death of a Natural Right By Timothy Wheeler It wasn't supposed to be this way. When Great Britain banned the sale and ownership of handguns in 1997, few expected it to be a panacea against such horrors as the Dunblane massacre, a madman's handgun rampage that killed 16 children and gave political impetus to the anti-gun movement. But nobody expected the surge of violent crime that followed. Believe it or not, Britain's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary now exceed those in the United States. Murder and rape are creeping closer to U.S. rates. The American news media have virtually ignored this amazing change, even as American politicians push more stringent, British-style gun-control schemes. In scenes evocative of "A Clockwork Orange," cities across Great Britain are being increasingly terrorized by bands of young thugs who beat, rob, shoot, and rape their way to the top of the criminal food chain. But "Clockwork's" vicious protagonist Alex and his bullyboys were armed only with clubs and switchblades. Today's predators carry guns, in carefree contempt for the new law. Violent crime in Britain had begun to rise even before Dunblane. Still, the Guardian in London reported this month "between 1997 and 1999 there were 429 murders in the capital, the highest two-year figure for more than 10 years." Two-thirds of the crimes involved firearms. BBC News reported "dramatic rise in violent crime" from 1998 to 1999 as revealed by the British Home Office's July crime report. Violence against persons rose by 16%, and sexual offenses rose by 4.5%. The robbery rate skyrocketed by 26%, adding to a total violent crime rate increase of 16% in a single year. It would be simplistic to attribute Britain's violent crime wave entirely to the 1997 handgun ban. But it is clear that the ban did nothing to stop crime or even slow it down. Illegal guns continue to flow into the country, supplying youthful predators ever more willing to use them. The Guardian noted that shopkeepers increasingly find themselves facing handguns or automatic weapons. How can lovely England, the wellspring of America's legal tradition and culture, have come to this helpless state? America's traditional right of gun ownership is indeed rooted in England. That "true, ancient, and indubitable right," historian Joyce Lee Malcolm writes, was born in 1689 in the English Bill of Rights. The American founders adopted it as the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights a century later. While American political tradition retained the right to gun ownership, England eventually discarded it. Legal scholars Joseph Olson and David Kopel describe in a Hamline Law Review article "All The Way Down The Slippery Slope" how gun ownership in England was hounded to extinction, one "sensible" law at a time. The stages of its death mirror the stages advocated by today's American anti-gun activists. Starting with the Pistol Act of 1903, no British subject could buy a pistol without a license. Similarly, Americans ceded power to their federal government with the Gun Control Act of 1968, which established strict controls on the sale or transfer of guns to citizens. Licensing of gun owners is currently espoused by Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore, among others. Parliament passed the Firearms Act of 1920, which added the requirement of a government-sanctioned "good reason" for owning a gun. Olson and Kopel observe that gun ownership was no longer viewed as a right, but as a privilege. One can hear the echoes of this blow to English liberty as American gun-grabbers now plead that no deer hunter really needs a semi-automatic rifle. It is no coincidence that the British also gave up their right of self-defense. Parliament repealed the common law rules on justifiable use of deadly force in 1967. Since then, a British subject who uses deadly force to defend against a violent home invasion is considered the criminal, not the victim. A chilling example is the Norfolk farmer Tony Martin, now serving a life sentence for shooting and killing a career criminal who broke into his home. Britain now finds itself at the bottom of the slope, bereft of the primal and decent notion that a human life is worth defending. British subjects are now forced to submit to enslavement by common thugs. So much for Britain's legacy of liberty. Will America suffer the same fate? Americans should put the brakes on our own slide down the slippery slope of gun confiscation. Otherwise we will find ourselves defenseless against the criminals who have always been a part of society. And when that happens, in the words of the villain Alex, we can brace ourselves for a bit of the old ultra-violence. Timothy Wheeler, M.D., is the Director of Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership, a Project of The Claremont Institute. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: Let's help a pro gun Journalist Date: 09 Oct 2000 18:25:52 -0600 ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control --------- Forwarded message ---------- To all, Following a very successful counter demonstration to the MM people in Bethlehem, PA, a media columnist (Paul Carpenter) published a true but unfalttering fact about the organizer of the 'Commie Mommies'. Read the info and colume below, and if you have the time, write a note to the paper expressing your outrage that this (rare) media supporter of the 2nd A, is catching hell from his employer for telling the truth. If you do write, make sure Paul gets a BCC for his records. Thanks in advance. John Masly Saylorsburg, PA ========================================= Paul Carpenter, the conservative columnist at the Morning Call newspaper, has come under fire from the entire editorial staff at the paper and is being threatened with termination. What caused this? In today's edition of the Morning Call Mr. Carpenter told the truth about the leader of the Million Mom March. As it turns out she was arrested for DWI, public drunkeness, and assorted vehicle violations four years ago. The Million Moms have flooded the Morning Call with e-mails calling for his termination. If we want to keep the only media friend we have in the Lehigh Valley, you must write a quick note saying how much you enjoyed reading Carpenter's column today, how much you admire him for reporting the truth, and the only reason you get the Call is to read his column. Send your e-mails to letters@mcall.com with a CC: to paul.carpenter@mcall.com This cannot wait until tomorrow. You must do it NOW. Mr. Carpenter's job is on the line. His column is below: Headline: Gun debate rallies are full of surprises Not everything turns out the way it is planned. This week's First Monday 2000 rally in Bethlehem, we were told in advance, was not for gun control. "It's just antiviolence," rally organizer Helen Ruch told me. That's not the way it turned out; the rally was largely devoted to antigun rhetoric on signs and in speeches. Ruch had hoped 1,500 would join her, but 70 showed up to march across Bethlehem's Fahy Bridge. That dwindled to 40 for her postmarch rally at Moravian College. An anti-antigun turnout, on the other hand, surprised even the most ardent National Rifle Association members. More than 1,000 foes of gun control lined one side of Fahy Bridge as Ruch's 70 demonstrators marched across on the other side, then more than 2,000 showed up at Bethlehem's Rose Garden for a rally to support the Second Amendment. Another surprise, given the passions on both sides, was that nearly all these people were very polite. At Moravian, following some truly dreadful music, Ruch hailed her "rally to attempt to end gun violence." She said there are conflicting numbers about how many people are killed by guns, but "one victim a day is too many....Our children do not feel safe and that's not fair." Then began the awfullest music you can imagine, so I bailed out to go see how the other rally was doing. The pro-gun rally focused almost entirely on why gun control is bad. It was argued that crime increased after cities like New York, Washington and Los Angeles imposed severe restrictions on citizens carrying guns, giving criminals free rein. Other arguments were that things like gun locks and waiting periods similarly leave people defenseless. All that may be true, but it seems to me that if you have 2,000 zealots in one spot, you should not waste time trying to convince them of what they already intractably believe. Instead, tell them how to gain political support, pool resources or persuade those not yet in your camp, including news media people, many of whom unabashedly support those who seek to dilute the Bill of Rights. My sentiments have long been aligned against gun control, mainly because it abrogates part of the Bill of Rights, but also because much of the impetus comes from hysteria. Last year, I questioned the hysteria over gun violence in schools while there was far less outcry over violence caused by drunks. This week, figures supplied by Mothers Against Drunk Driving said drunken drivers killed 15,935 in 1998. Handgun Control, a Washington group that pushes gun control, said there were 12,102 homicides by firearms in 1998. Neither figure is heartening, but the drunks are outdoing the gunslingers when it comes to deadly violence. And that brings us back to Ruch and a final surprise. Noting her view that it's not fair for children to feel unsafe because of guns, I asked her Thursday if she thinks it's also unfair that they feel unsafe because of the far more serious dangers from drunken drivers. "What does that have to do with anything?" she replied. I told her it has to do with her drunken driving charge. "I have no comment," she said. That's OK, because Lehigh County Court records commented plenty. They say Ruch was charged with public drunkenness (later dropped), driving under the influence, and improper "emerging onto roadway" in 1996. "Driver was given sobriety tests of balance and walking and failed all tests. Effects of alcohol were extreme," said an Allentown police report. The report said her breath test registered 0.162. The records say that in 1997, Ruch agreed to enter the Accelerated Rehabilitative Disposition program. Typically, when ARD is successfully completed, DUI records can be expunged. In any event, it seems to me that if those marching across Fahy Bridge genuinely want to curb deadly violence, they can start by demanding tougher sanctions for drunken drivers. Contact Paul Carpenter 610-820-6176 paul.carpenter@mcall.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: Jim Matheson's Campaign funding Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:43:26 -0600 The following is forwarded, FYI, from another list and is probably of primary interest to those in the 2nd CD. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control --------- Forwarded message ---------- > The Utah Shooting Sports Council has just received copies of > Second Congressional District candidate Jim Matheson's campaign > contribution filing with the Federal Election Commission (FEC). > His campaign has received $3,000 from Sarah Brady's Handgun > Control Inc. > > The document is viewable at the FEC's web site at www.fec.gov. > > It is vitally important that you make all gun owners aware of > Matheson's support from Handgun Control. PLEASE FORWARD THIS > ALERT TO EVERY PRO-GUN PERSON IN YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS BOOK! Tell > every gun owner you know of this fact. > > Jim Matheson has been trying to portray himself as a moderate > Democrat when in fact he is rabidly anti-gun. Most Utah gun > owners are not aware of this fact. If word of this does not > reach gun owners in the state, Utah could end up with a > congressman who is beholden to East Coast liberal anti-gun > fanatics such as Sarah Brady and Rosie O'Donnell. > > According to FEC documents Jim Matheson has also received money > from the following out-of-state political action committees and > individuals all of whom are anti-gun: > > Jane Fonda - $1,000, American Trial Lawyers Association PAC - > $5,000. > > Please note that Jim Matheson's opponent DEREK SMITH IS SOLIDLY > PRO-GUN. HE IS ENDORSED BY THE NRA. If you would like to > volunteer to help elect Derek Smith contact Annette L. Call at > 521-5500 or e-mail annette@smith4congress.com > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: POWERFUL NEW GUN RIGHTS VIDEO Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:14:44 -0600 ----- To All: Here's a new Flash presentation I think folks will like. It's getting quite a bit of play on the Internet. Feel free to send this to your congressman! http://www.teesdale.com/90_million_1.html I'd welcome any comments. Best regards, Robert Teesdale mailto:robert@teesdale.com http://www.teesdale.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: New Anti-Gun Strategy Doomed to Fail Date: 11 Oct 2000 11:50:27 -0600 Here's an article well worth reading that gives some important advice for RKBA activists. In an interesting twist, Dr. Brown thinks that the very demonization heaped upon gunnies for many years makes us uniquely qualified to counter-demonstrate and pretty much ruin any chances the victim disarmament crowd has of building true grass-roots organizations. Its a good point, and makes it especially important that local groups of concerned citizens show up to confront any public events staged by groups like the Million Moronic Moms. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=691 --- Hunter's Hundred Sixty-Second Rule: Reality doesn't care what you want, it just happens. Ceterum censeo fiscum delendum esse --- >= LIBERTY ROUND TABLE DISCUSSIONS LIST (http://www.vader.com/lrtdiscuss) >= >= TO POST TO THE LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss@vader.com >= TO SUBSCRIBE TO LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss-request@vader.com >= TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss-drop@vader.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: Beavis and Butthead on Guns and Gun Control Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:51:56 -0600 Somehow the ^F search function doesn't seem to work at this URL. ----- "Well, it starts with enforcing law. We need to say loud and clear to somebody, "If you're going to carry a gun illegally, we're going to arrest you. If you're going to sell a gun illegally, you're going to be arrested. And if you commit a crime with a gun," there needs to be absolute certainty in the law." --George W. Bush, 2nd Debate Bush says "everyone believes that" all schools should be gun-free. (self-defense free zones, now there is a concept any potential violent aggressor can love. Everyone believes this?) Let me get this right. Bush will support making anyone under the age of 21 caught carrying a handgun anywhere or anyone carrying any gun in a school zone a criminal. (What happened to H.S. rifle clubs anyway?) What if Gun Control Inc. manages to make gun ownership a capital offense? Oh, ok, I get it, Bush is the "law and order" candidate, he will enforce the law. (See Bush's Texas record on capital punishment.) Bush thinks 18 year olds should wait until they are 21 to self-defend in this country. Maybe we should wait until our soldiers are 21 before we ask them to pack for "our" defense. (It might make it harder for the Bush dynasty to protect its oil interests or "project American commercial influence" abroad, but I still think people who are not old enough to make contract, drink or shoot should not be expected to defend those who are.) Bush is opposed to photo-licensing of gun owners. hmmm, anyone see a loophole in this one? :) Gary Here is the debate transcript on guns and gun control. Read it and weep. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=698 Ceterum censeo fiscum delendum esse --- >= LIBERTY ROUND TABLE DISCUSSIONS LIST (http://www.vader.com/lrtdiscuss) >= >= TO POST TO THE LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss@vader.com >= TO SUBSCRIBE TO LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss-request@vader.com >= TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss-drop@vader.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: 7 Varieties Of Gun Control Advocates Date: 12 Oct 2000 12:03:37 -0600 Which are you? http://www.jpfo.org/jp_seven.htm 7 Varieties of Gun Control Advocates by Gus Cotey, Jr. The right of decent private citizens to personally possess, transport, and responsibly use arms without government interference is the ultimate freedom and the main pillar supporting all other liberties. Few cultures have allowed their general population access to weapons, the tools of power, to the same degree as the United States. Instead, most societies have restricted the keeping and bearing of arms to a select few power brokers and their agents, often resulting in oppression on a grand scale. Despite a massive amount of historical evidence to the contrary, there is a substantial body of Americans, many occupying positions of influence, who contend that the abrogation of the Second Amendment is the quickest path to domestic tranquility. Since this is as absurd as advocating blood-letting as a cure for anemia, it would seem advisable to question the motives and mentalities of the gun control advocates themselves. In my observation, weapon prohibitionists can be broken down into seven major categories. Even though their motives may vary they all pose a mortal threat to liberty. Elitists Many of those in favor of oppressive firearms legislation are best classed as elitists. Elitists frequently identify with a peer group based on wealth, power, rank, social status, occupation, education, ethnic group, etc. and perceive themselves and their peers as inherently superior to and more responsible than the "common people", thus more deserving of certain rights. Since elitists practically consider those outside their class or caste as members of another species, that most anti-elitist list of laws, the Bill of Rights is viewed by them as anathema. Naturally, the Second Amendment is their first target as it serves as the supporting structure for the other nine [now 10 since one of the original Bill or Rights was ratified as the 27th amendment - Scott] amendments. Authoritarians Another type of individual who favors the restriction of private gun ownership is the authoritarian. Authoritarian personalities are characterized by their belief in unquestioning obedience to an authority figure or group and a disdain for individual freedom of action, expression, and judgement. Those with authoritarian personalities function well in symbiosis with elitists occupying positions of power. Because authoritarians repress their desires for autonomy, they harbor a deep resentment toward free and independent thinkers. Of course authoritarians do not want firearms in the hands of the general population as this constitutes a major obstacle to fulfilling their pathological and obsessive desire to control people. Criminals It goes without saying that career criminals would like to see the public disarmed for obvious reasons. A well-armed population makes crimes such as assault, robbery, and burglary hazardous for the perpetrator and this is bad for "business." Also, it would seem that even non-violent "white collar" criminals live in constant fear of retribution from the public that they financially bleed and would therefore prefer that the public be disarmed. Evidence supporting this hypothesis can be gathered by studying the Second Amendment voting records of those legislators who have been convicted of willful misconduct. The Fearful Cowards by definition are easily or excessively frightened by things and situations that are recognized as dangerous, difficult, or painful. It therefore stands to reason that the mere thought of guns and the circumstances in which they are employed causes them abnormal amounts of stress. Rather than admit their weakness to themselves or others, some fearful types jump on the anti-gun bandwagon and purport moral superiority to those "barbaric" enough to employ lethal force against armed assailants by claiming various humanitarian and pragmatic motives for allowing evil to remain unchecked. In reality, many of these individuals harbor an envy induced resentment toward anyone with the means, skill, and will to successfully stand up to criminal aggression. The desire to assert oneself exists in nearly everyone, wimps included, so cowards seek out tame enemies against whom they can ply their pitiful brand of machismo. Instead of the sociopaths who commit acts of wanton aggression with guns, guns themselves and responsible gun owners are the main targets of their attacks. After all, real criminals are dangerous, so cowards prefer doing battle with inanimate objects that do not have a will of their own and with decent law-abiding people whose high level of integrity and self discipline prevent them from physically lashing out against mere verbal assailants, however obnoxious they may be. Ideological Chameleons Ideological chameleons follow the simple social strategy of avoiding controversy and confrontation by espousing the beliefs of the people in their immediate vicinity or advocating the philosophy of those who scream the loudest in a debate. Quite a few supposedly pro Second Amendment public officials have shown themselves to be ideological chameleons when they supported restrictions on the private possession of military style semiautomatic rifles following recent atrocities in which such firearms were employed. Like their reptilian namesake, people who merely blend in with the ambient philosophical foliage seem to have little insight into the moral and social ramifications of their actions. Political and/or economic gain along with avoidance of confrontation are their only goals. Security Monopolists Security monopolists are those members and representatives of public and private security providing concerns who want the means of self protection out of private hands so that they can command high fees for protecting the citizenry against the rising tide of crime. These profiteers stand to lose a great deal of capital if citizens can efficiently defend themselves. To the security monopolist, each criminal who enters and exits the revolving door of justice is a renewable source of revenue providing jobs for police, social workers, victim counsellors, judges, prison employees, security guards, burglar alarm installers, locksmiths, and others employed by the security monopolies or their satellite organizations. No wonder it is so common for an honest citizen to be more ruthlessly hounded by the authorities when he shoots a criminal in self defense than is a criminal who shoots honest citizens. The Dysfunctional Unworldly Just as a limb will weaken and atrophy if not used, so will aspects of the mind fail to develop if nothing in one's environment exists to challenge them. People who have led excessively sheltered lives tend to have a difficult time understanding certain cause and effect relationships and an even harder time appreciating just how cruel the world can be. These dysfunctionally unworldly types are truly perplexed at the very notion of firearms ownership with regard to defense. To them, tyranny and crime are things that happen in other places far removed from their "civilized" universe. Also, they do not understand the value of private property and why some people would fight for theirs since they never had to work hard to acquire what they possess. While those suffering from dysfunctional unworldliness are most often people who have been born into considerable wealth, this condition is also common in members of the clergy, academicians, practioners of the arts, and others who have spent much of their lives cloistered in a safe and pampering environment. While many of these people may be quite talented and intelligent in some ways, their extreme naivety makes them easy prey for the tyrants who use them for the financial support and favorable advertisement of their regimes. Needless to say, the anti-gun movement is well represented and financed by the dysfunctionally unworldly. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance, and it behooves all vigilant lovers of liberty to know and be able to recognize the various types of arms prohibitionists and understand their differing but equally dangerous motives. Acquiring knowledge of one's foes is the first step toward defeating them. We must never forget that a threat to private firearms ownership is a threat to all freedoms. Jews for the Presevation of Firearms Ownership - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Waldron Subject: [Fwd: (ai) Israelis use specialized sniper rifles] Date: 17 Oct 2000 11:17:45 -0700 Coming soon to a SWAT team near you... (This message is being forwarded not as a commentary on right or wrong in the middle east, but rather to inform list members of a new riot-control tactic adopted by an organization with vast experience in the riot control arena. While one would think our Bill of Rights would prevent such targeted bloodshed, one never knows...) Joe W >=20 > The Times >=20 > TUESDAY OCTOBER 17 2000 > No bangs, no smoking guns: > victims just fell and bled > SAM KILEY IN RAMALLAH > ISRAELI snipers using specialised rifles fitted > with silencers yesterday picked off high-profile > Palestinian rioters in Ramallah in an apparent bid > to "take out" ringleaders of the 19-day uprising. > Stone-throwing youths watched, stunned, as men > and boys at the barricades collapsed with small > bullet holes in their chests, testicles, arms and > hips. Those wounded included the nephew of > Marwan Barghouti, the leader of the West Bank > intifada who has been using the uprising to > position himself as a potential successor to Yassir > Arafat. >=20 > Coming soon after an Israeli armoured vehicle > charge at rioters, no one knew quite what to do > about the new approach to riot control. The > Israelis hurled stun grenades, and fired the > occasional rubber bullet. The Palestinians were > used to that, ducking and diving and chucking > stones back. But the use of rounds which > apparently came from nowhere terrified the > crowds. There were no bangs, no smoking guns. > The victims just flopped down and bled, > sometimes unnoticed. >=20 > Tahir Afaneh, 18, was unmoved by the sight of > two men who fell close to him and were whisked > away by ambulance. He already had an arm and a > knee bandaged from rubber bullet wounds > sustained earlier in the "al-Aqsa intifada". >=20 > Easily visible in a white T-shirt, Mr Afaneh > stepped from behind a car to whirr his slingshot > and take aim at Israeli soldiers 100 yards away. > There was no sound of a shot, but he spun around, > falling on his back. "I didn't hear a thing. I didn't > feel much, I just fell over," he said in Ramallah's > central hospital where he was treated for a wound > to his pelvis, where the bullet lodged. >=20 > Hosni Atari, the doctor who treated him, said he > had never seen the results of the new Israeli > weapon before. Hollow-nosed bullets opened like > an umbrella on impact, spun about, chewing up > internal organs, and seldom left an exit wound. >=20 > The long-barrel 22mm rifle was deadly even at > long range =AF and had the advantage of never > revealing the sniper's nest. "These are intended to > cause the maximum amount of damage to a > person," Dr Atari said. He treated seven such > patients yesterday. >=20 > As the Israeli and Palestinian leadership talked > peace in Sharm el-Sheik, another patient was > rushed in. This time, it was Tamir Barghouti, > whose uncle had declared at the funeral of a > Palestinian gunman yesterday: "Our intifada is > greater than Sharm el Sheik". >=20 > Tamir Barghouti, 23, had been shot through the > abdomen and the bullet lodged in his hip. "He > might make it," Dr Atari told Marwan Barghouti, > who took the opportunity to announce to > journalists outside the operating theatre: "The > talks in Egypt will fail. We support Mr Arafat, but > we wish he had not bothered to go. There is only > one solution, and that is to put an end to the Israel= i > occupation of Palestine." >=20 > By sunset, the toll across the West Bank was two > dead =AF a boy of 13 and a policeman =AF a 14-year > old boy described as clinically dead, and 69 > wounded. >=20 > * > * NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 Section 107, this material > * is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed = a > * prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research = and > * educational purposes only. Provided by G2-Forward. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Re: [Fwd: (ai) Israelis use specialized sniper rifles] Date: 17 Oct 2000 13:43:10 -0600 I have two thoughts on this. 1--I'm should think that snipers using accurate rifles from protected and concealed locations could do a lot better job of hitting their targets than to just wound them--if they really wanted to. 2--I believe the Israeli response is probably the appropriate one given violent rioters who refuse lawful orders to disperse. Should our own government ever reach the stage where revolution is an appropriate response--and I hope and pray it never does--then the proper response is armed revolution where both sides expect to get shot at, not throwing rocks at tanks. I wish our paid peace keepers had been able and willing to employ some of these tactics during the LA Riots before so many millions of dollars of property damage had been done and so many innocent lives lost or damaged forever. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:17:45 -0700 Joe Waldron writes: > Coming soon to a SWAT team near you... (This message is being > forwarded not as a commentary on right or wrong in the middle > east, but rather to inform list members of a new riot-control > tactic adopted by an organization with vast experience in the > riot control arena. While one would think our Bill of Rights > would prevent such targeted bloodshed, one never knows...) > > Joe W > > > > > > > > The Times > > > > TUESDAY OCTOBER 17 2000 > > No bangs, no smoking guns: > > victims just fell and bled > > SAM KILEY IN RAMALLAH > > ISRAELI snipers using specialised rifles fitted > > with silencers yesterday picked off high-profile > > Palestinian rioters in Ramallah in an apparent > bid > > to "take out" ringleaders of the 19-day > uprising. > > Stone-throwing youths watched, stunned, as men > > and boys at the barricades collapsed with small > > bullet holes in their chests, testicles, arms > and > > hips. Those wounded included the nephew of > > Marwan Barghouti, the leader of the West Bank > > intifada who has been using the uprising to > > position himself as a potential successor to > Yassir > > Arafat. > > > > Coming soon after an Israeli armoured vehicle > > charge at rioters, no one knew quite what to do > > about the new approach to riot control. The > > Israelis hurled stun grenades, and fired the > > occasional rubber bullet. The Palestinians were > > used to that, ducking and diving and chucking > > stones back. But the use of rounds which > > apparently came from nowhere terrified the > > crowds. There were no bangs, no smoking guns. > > The victims just flopped down and bled, > > sometimes unnoticed. > > > > Tahir Afaneh, 18, was unmoved by the sight of > > two men who fell close to him and were whisked > > away by ambulance. He already had an arm and a > > knee bandaged from rubber bullet wounds > > sustained earlier in the "al-Aqsa intifada". > > > > Easily visible in a white T-shirt, Mr Afaneh > > stepped from behind a car to whirr his slingshot > > and take aim at Israeli soldiers 100 yards away. > > There was no sound of a shot, but he spun > around, > > falling on his back. "I didn't hear a thing. I > didn't > > feel much, I just fell over," he said in > Ramallah's > > central hospital where he was treated for a > wound > > to his pelvis, where the bullet lodged. > > > > Hosni Atari, the doctor who treated him, said he > > had never seen the results of the new Israeli > > weapon before. Hollow-nosed bullets opened like > > an umbrella on impact, spun about, chewing up > > internal organs, and seldom left an exit wound. > > > > The long-barrel 22mm rifle was deadly even at > > long range ¯ and had the advantage of never > > revealing the sniper's nest. "These are intended > to > > cause the maximum amount of damage to a > > person," Dr Atari said. He treated seven such > > patients yesterday. > > > > As the Israeli and Palestinian leadership talked > > peace in Sharm el-Sheik, another patient was > > rushed in. This time, it was Tamir Barghouti, > > whose uncle had declared at the funeral of a > > Palestinian gunman yesterday: "Our intifada is > > greater than Sharm el Sheik". > > > > Tamir Barghouti, 23, had been shot through the > > abdomen and the bullet lodged in his hip. "He > > might make it," Dr Atari told Marwan Barghouti, > > who took the opportunity to announce to > > journalists outside the operating theatre: "The > > talks in Egypt will fail. We support Mr Arafat, > but > > we wish he had not bothered to go. There is only > > one solution, and that is to put an end to the > Israeli > > occupation of Palestine." > > > > By sunset, the toll across the West Bank was two > > dead ¯ a boy of 13 and a policeman ¯ a 14-year > > old boy described as clinically dead, and 69 > > wounded. > > > > * > > * NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 Section 107, this > material > > * is distributed without profit or payment to those who have > expressed a > > * prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit > research and > > * educational purposes only. Provided by G2-Forward. > > - > ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Very nice article Date: 17 Oct 2000 14:52:06 -0600 Forward ----- A very interesting article that gives an awful lot of detail and background information to present its case that the American political and social systems have some serious problems. Well worth a read. http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/silveira66.html --- Hunter's Eleventy-Third Rule: Respect often follows quoting Ben Franklin, which I suspect would amuse the old coot. Ceterum censeo fiscum delendum esse --- >= LIBERTY ROUND TABLE DISCUSSIONS LIST (http://www.vader.com/lrtdiscuss) >= >= TO POST TO THE LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss@vader.com >= TO SUBSCRIBE TO LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss-request@vader.com >= TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss-drop@vader.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: LP RELEASE: More Guns, Less Crime Date: 20 Oct 2000 11:27:30 -0600 Shocking study: 25 million more guns helped produce a 40% drop in crime WASHINGTON, DC -- Gun-related crime has plunged 40% in recent years while the number of guns in circulation has reached an all-time high, according to a new study by the U.S. Department of Justice -- and that's terrible news for supporters of gun control, Libertarians say. "The message is clear: More guns equal less crime," said Harry Browne, the Libertarian Party's presidential candidate. "The biggest threat to your safety isn't guns; it's politicians who want to restrict gun ownership. "That's why we need to do everything we can to keep dangerous gun laws out of the hands of politicians like Al Gore and George W. Bush." Data released last week by the FBI shows that gunshot wounds inflicted during crimes dropped to 39,400 from 64,100 nationwide between 1992 and 1997 -- a decrease of 40%. But during the same five years, the number of guns in America surged to 230 million from 205 million, according to the National Association of Federally Licensed Firearms Dealers. "Even street thugs understand what gun-banning politicians don't: Guns deter crime," Browne said. "Americans went on a gun-buying binge from 1992 to 1997, purchasing 11 million new handguns and 14 million new rifles and shotguns -- and crime continued to decline. "Imagine how much further crime would fall if politicians made it easier for more law-abiding citizens to buy guns by repealing many of the 20,000 gun laws currently on the books." One immediate target for repeal: State laws preventing Americans from carrying concealed weapons. "The three most violent cities in America -- New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles -- all have something in common: Gun control," Browne said. "According to the FBI figures, these three cities led the nation in murder, armed robbery, and assault. And no wonder. In those cities, it's illegal to carry a concealed weapon. Democrats and Republicans who refuse to repeal these laws are painting a target on the backs of innocent Americans." Browne conceded that other factors -- such as demographic changes, longer prison terms, and an improved economy -- may have played a role in the drop in crime rates. "But a dramatic increase in the number of guns didn't cause an increase in crime -- which is what politicians routinely claim when they spout off about the so-called need to reduce easy access to guns," he said. "In fact, giving ordinary Americans easy access to guns is apparently what criminals fear most." Another shocking truth about gun control laws, Browne said, is that even politicians don't favor them -- for themselves. "Visit the Capitol building in Washington, DC, and notice how many guards are carrying guns," he said. "Politicians say you have to be disarmed to make America safer, but they don't disarm government employees. Senators and Congressmen may have a compelling need to defend themselves, but is it really more compelling than your need to defend your home and your family against criminals? "Of course not. That's why if I'm elected president I will immediately sign an executive order disarming every single guard on Capitol Hill -- until Congress fully restores your right to carry a gun." During the presidential debates, both Bush and Gore emphasized their support for background checks, taxpayer-financed trigger locks, and enforcing current gun laws, noted Browne. "Gore and Bush are both promoting the dangerous utopian idea that criminals will suddenly decide to follow whatever laws they manage to pass," he said. "But more laws are not the answer. The best solution is to repeal every existing gun control law on the books. The number of guns in the hands of criminals will not change, but more Americans would recover the right to defend themselves -- which will probably inspire many more criminals to seek a safer line of work." # # # - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: FW: LP RELEASE: More Guns, Less Crime Date: 20 Oct 2000 11:47:54 -0600 Nothing surprising to us here, but nice to see a few press releases that give credit where credit is due. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control --------- Forwarded message ---------- Shocking study: 25 million more guns helped produce a 40% drop in crime WASHINGTON, DC -- Gun-related crime has plunged 40% in recent years while the number of guns in circulation has reached an all-time high, according to a new study by the U.S. Department of Justice -- and that's terrible news for supporters of gun control, Libertarians say. "The message is clear: More guns equal less crime," said Harry Browne, the Libertarian Party's presidential candidate. "The biggest threat to your safety isn't guns; it's politicians who want to restrict gun ownership. "That's why we need to do everything we can to keep dangerous gun laws out of the hands of politicians like Al Gore and George W. Bush." Data released last week by the FBI shows that gunshot wounds inflicted during crimes dropped to 39,400 from 64,100 nationwide between 1992 and 1997 -- a decrease of 40%. But during the same five years, the number of guns in America surged to 230 million from 205 million, according to the National Association of Federally Licensed Firearms Dealers. "Even street thugs understand what gun-banning politicians don't: Guns deter crime," Browne said. "Americans went on a gun-buying binge from 1992 to 1997, purchasing 11 million new handguns and 14 million new rifles and shotguns -- and crime continued to decline. "Imagine how much further crime would fall if politicians made it easier for more law-abiding citizens to buy guns by repealing many of the 20,000 gun laws currently on the books." One immediate target for repeal: State laws preventing Americans from carrying concealed weapons. "The three most violent cities in America -- New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles -- all have something in common: Gun control," Browne said. "According to the FBI figures, these three cities led the nation in murder, armed robbery, and assault. And no wonder. In those cities, it's illegal to carry a concealed weapon. Democrats and Republicans who refuse to repeal these laws are painting a target on the backs of innocent Americans." Browne conceded that other factors -- such as demographic changes, longer prison terms, and an improved economy -- may have played a role in the drop in crime rates. "But a dramatic increase in the number of guns didn't cause an increase in crime -- which is what politicians routinely claim when they spout off about the so-called need to reduce easy access to guns," he said. "In fact, giving ordinary Americans easy access to guns is apparently what criminals fear most." Another shocking truth about gun control laws, Browne said, is that even politicians don't favor them -- for themselves. "Visit the Capitol building in Washington, DC, and notice how many guards are carrying guns," he said. "Politicians say you have to be disarmed to make America safer, but they don't disarm government employees. Senators and Congressmen may have a compelling need to defend themselves, but is it really more compelling than your need to defend your home and your family against criminals? "Of course not. That's why if I'm elected president I will immediately sign an executive order disarming every single guard on Capitol Hill -- until Congress fully restores your right to carry a gun." During the presidential debates, both Bush and Gore emphasized their support for background checks, taxpayer-financed trigger locks, and enforcing current gun laws, noted Browne. "Gore and Bush are both promoting the dangerous utopian idea that criminals will suddenly decide to follow whatever laws they manage to pass," he said. "But more laws are not the answer. The best solution is to repeal every existing gun control law on the books. The number of guns in the hands of criminals will not change, but more Americans would recover the right to defend themselves -- which will probably inspire many more criminals to seek a safer line of work." # # # ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Not-so safe-storage laws Date: 20 Oct 2000 16:52:21 -0600 Not-so safe-storage laws ---------- by Dave Kopel, Dr. Paul Gallant & Dr. Joanne Eisen "Rather than saving lives, could it be that trigger-lock laws are intended to condition Americans into believing that firearms aren't acceptable for self-defense, or worth the bother?" (10/19/00) http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel101800.shtml To subscribe or unsubscribe to this and other lists, click to: http://free-market.net/features/lists/ or http://free-market.net/cgi/listMgr.cgi (for members) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: Doctor Emerson acquitted! Date: 23 Oct 2000 18:26:04 -0600 Unconfirmed Doctor Emerson acquitted! (by Eugene Volokh) According to the San Angelo Standard Times, Oct. 19, http://www.texaswest.com, Dr. Emerson (of U.S. v. Emerson fame) has been acquitted of threatening his ex-wife with a gun. Recall that the feds went after him as a result of that alleged threat (since otherwise they probably wouldn't even have known that he still had his guns). Emerson's story was that the ex-wife "barged into his office and would not leave when he asked. He then pulled a Beretta pistol out of a desk drawer and laid it on the desk. According to Emerson, McSpadden insisted on going down the hallway to retrieve the daughter's shoes and socks. According to an affidavit, Emerson said he again warned McSpadden about trespassing and held the gun in the air, cocked it, then lowered it to his side." Prosecutors, on the other hand, "argued that the case was one of domestic violence and that Emerson put McSpadden and his daughter in danger of their lives when he drew the weapon." The jury seems to have bought Emerson's claim; Texas law apparently allows people to threaten deadly force to eject trespassers, so Emerson was apparently acting within his rights under state law. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JHVG@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: Doctor Emerson acquitted! Date: 23 Oct 2000 19:32:06 EDT The Federal government's appeal of Dr. Emerson's acquital on federal charges is still pending in the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. A decision is expected before the end of the year. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Emerson Aquitted! Longer version Date: 23 Oct 2000 20:42:29 -0600 http://www.sierratimes.com/artx102100.htm A SierraTimes Editorial - © 2000 SierraTimes.com Emerson Aquitted! San Angelo Standard-Times - Posted:10.21.00 Doctor not guilty of felony charges West Texas man involved in federal case with gun rights implications; state prosecutors appeal By BEN MONTGOMERY Staff Writer A West Texas doctor who made national headlines because of a federal case with gun rights implications was cleared of state charges on Wednesday. Dr. Tim Emerson was found not guilty of endangerment of a child and aggravated assault in State District Court by a Tom Green County jury made up of nine women and two men. The two state felony charges were in addition to federal charges of possessing a firearm while under a restraining order in 1998. The federal charges were thrown out by a trial judge, who cited in part that Emerson' Second Amendment rights were violated. It was federal court action that received attention from the National Rifle Association, law-enforcement officers, media and lawyer organizations. Some legal scholars and historians even predicted the losing side would push Emerson's case all the way to the Supreme Court. Following the case's dismissal, prosecutors appealed the case to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans. Both the state and federal charges resulted from a conflict between Emerson and his ex-wife Sacha McSpadden. In 1998, McSpadden filed for divorce. She alleged that Emerson had threatened her boyfriend and State District Judge John Sutton granted a temporary restraining order. The judge had failed to warn Emerson, however, of a 1994 federal law that made gun possession illegal under a restraining order. Emerson had represented himself in the case, so no lawyer made him aware of the law that is intended to protect spouses during pending divorces. According to Standard-Times reports, in November 1998, McSpadden showed up at the doctor's medical office at 14 South Jefferson Street with the couple's 4-year-old daughter. Emerson said McSpadden barged into his office and would not leave when he asked. He then pulled a Beretta pistol out of a desk drawer and laid it on the desk. According to Emerson, McSpadden insisted on going down the hallway to retrieve the daughter's shoes and socks. According to an affidavit, Emerson said he again warned McSpadden about trespassing and held the gun in the air, cocked it, then lowered it to his side. Emerson said he brought the weapon to work because of threats from a patient he suspected of abusing pain medication. During the trial, McSpadden, who has since remarried and lives in Sterling City, claimed Emerson aimed the gun at her and her daughter, hence the charges of aggravated assault and endangering a child. Prosecutors argued that the case was one of domestic violence and that Emerson put McSpadden and his daughter in danger of their lives when he drew the weapon. "It is time to send a message that there is no excuse for this kind of domestic violence," District Attorney Steve Lupton told jurors in closing arguments. Defense attorneys said McSpadden and an accomplice planned to ruin the doctor's medical practice. They added that it is the law in the state of Texas that a person can defend his property. The jury deliberated for just more than an hour before acquitting Emerson of both charges. Contact Ben Montgomery at bmontgomery@texaswest.com or 659-8263. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: GOA Alert--McCain aiding anti-gun initiatives Date: 26 Oct 2000 13:43:15 -0600 Your Help Is Needed -- Anti-Gun Initiatives Have Nationwide Impact ****** GOA-PVF SPECIAL ALERT ****** Gun Owners of America Political Victory Fund E-Mail/Fax Alert 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org October 26, 2000 Dear Gun Rights Supporter, Arizona Senator John McCain -- who masquerades as a conservative patriot, but is really an agent for radical Big Government control -- has teamed up with an internet billionaire on behalf of the anti-gun ballot initiatives in Oregon and Colorado. Your immediate help is needed for our friends at: Oregon Firearms Federation (OFF) -- http://www.oregonfirearms.org/store/join_off.html Rocky Mountain Gun Owners (RMGO) -- http://www.rmgo.org/donate.html THEIR FIGHT IS YOUR FIGHT! Several weeks ago, I wrote you to urge your action against gun control initiatives in Colorado and Oregon, and many of you have responded. For that, you have my thanks. But the situation in both states just got worse: News agencies report that an internet billionaire has donated $12 million to a new anti-gun organization and spending it in Colorado and Oregon to pass the anti-freedom ballot initiatives. Initial reports said that a "prominent Republican" would be featured in television ads, urging the passage of each state's gun control initiatives. According to GOA members, the advertisement is swamping the airwaves in both states, featuring U.S. Senator John McCain (R-Arizona) urging voters to shut down gun shows unless all sales are forced to undergo a Brady Registration check. Of course, private sales at gun shows are just the next step in the banning of ALL PRIVATE SALES AND REGISTRATION OF EVERY GUN OWNER IN AMERICA. We'll have to deal with Senator McCain later -- what I need you to do today is to up the ante in Colorado and Oregon. We must do everything we can to oppose these anti-freedom initiatives (even if we cannot defeat them, we must prove gun owners will put up a vicious fight for our rights EVERY TIME), and the organizations in those states that are putting up a valiant defense of your rights once again need your help. If you were unable to donate when we first brought the battles to your attention, I urge you to donate to Rocky Mountain Gun Owners and Oregon Firearms Federation as soon as possible. Even if you can only donate $25 to each fight, it could mean the difference. If you already donated to these worthy causes, I hope you will consider again joining the fight. You can donate to either organization online by going to: Oregon -- http://www.oregonfirearms.org/store/join_off.html Colorado -- http://www.rmgo.org/donate.html Or if you wish to send a donation directly, you can mail them at the following addresses: Rocky Mountain Gun Owners PO Box 3114 Denver CO 80201 Oregon Firearms Federation PO Box 556 Canby OR 97013 Our opponents have escalated this war, and we have to respond. Please, do all you can. Sincerely, Larry Pratt Gun Owners of America P.S. Anti-gun Senator John McCain has now made Oregon and Colorado the number one battleground for our gun rights, and we need help. The gun-grabbers are raising money hand-over-fist from liberal out-of-state organizations and now an internet billionaire. Our friends at RMGO and OFF cannot compete without your assistance. You can download a copy of the radio ads being used to challenge McCain's gun control agenda. Go to: http://www.oregonfirearms.org/measure5/noon5radio.shtml Your financial support can help to run more of these hardhitting ads in Oregon and Colorado (under production). Please donate whatever you can afford -- $25, $50, $75, $100 (there are no limits) -- to RMGO and/or OFF as soon as possible to help us fend off this attack on our freedoms. Use the Clip-n-print coupons below to mail a contribution or to give through a secure server on the web: OFF, Oregon -- http://www.oregonfirearms.org/store/join_off.html RMGO, Colorado -- http://www.rmgo.org/donate.html ************************************************* CLIP-N-PRINT REPLY FOR COLORADO: ROCKY MOUNTAIN GUN OWNERS (RMGO) Name____________________________________ Address___________________________________ City_____________________________ Zip________________________ Contribution $25_____ $50_______ $100_____ $250______ $500_____ $1000_____ Other______ Rocky Mountain Gun Owners PO Box 3114 Denver, CO 80201 Please Make Checks Payable to "RMGO" OR CONTRIBUTE ON-LINE THROUGH A SECURE SERVER: http://www.rmgo.org/donate.html ************************************************* CLIP-N-PRINT REPLY FOR OREGON: OREGON FIREARMS FEDERATION-PAC (OFF) OFF PAC Stop Measure 5 Reply Form Stop Measure 5. Stop Gun Owner registration. Name____________________________________ Address____________________________________ City____________________________________ Zip____________________________________ Contribution $25_____ $50_______ $100_____ $250______ $500_____ $1000_____ Other________ Occupation (required for donations over $50.00) __________________________________________________ Oregon Firearms Federation PO Box 556 Canby OR 97013 OR CONTRIBUTE ON THE WEB THROUGH A SECURE SERVER: http://www.oregonfirearms.org/store/join_off.html Please Make Checks Payable to "OFFPAC" ************************************************* Contributions to OFF, RMGO or GOA-PVF are not deductible for Federal Income Tax purposes. Authorized and paid for by Gun Owners of America Political Victory Fund in cooperation with Oregon Firearms Federation Political Action Committee and Rocky Mountain Gun Owners Political Action Committee. ************** Do not reply directly to this message. To subscribe to free, low-volume GOA alerts, go to http://www.gunowners.org/ean.htm on the web. To unsubscribe send a message to gunowners_members@mailmanager.net with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. Change of e-mail address: unsubscribe the old address and subscribe the new using the above instructions. Problems, questions or comments? The main GOA e-mail address goamail@gunowners.org is at your disposal. Please do not add that address to distribution lists sending more than ten messages per week or lists associated with issues other than gun rights. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: FW: NEA Wipes The Mat With American Gun Owners!--real action to take Date: 26 Oct 2000 17:58:31 -0600 Here is what one correspont reports doing with the petition. ---begin forwarded messsage---- RE: the message, NEA Wipes Mat With American Gun Owners. VERY IMPORTANT! If you haven't had time to read the whole thing yet, I recommend that you do so post haste. In the message there is a link to download their petition. You have to have Adobe Type Reader (?) to print it out. I printed it out and was a trifle unhappy with their font choice in bold: hard to read with any degree of speed. I retyped the petition with a little different font and provided a little more room where the lines are for signatures. I will attach my version (exact same wording) below in both WordPerfect 7.0 and Word For Windows formats so you can call one or the other up and print it out. Here in my area, I have already printed out the main message (4 pages) double sided (2 pages) and then had 200 copies of the petition itself printed up. I have already hit the four main gun stores here in my area. Tomorrow, I intend to go to the two gun ranges and start hitting the pawn shops. Also, this evening I intend to grow across town to the meeting of the local Gun Club. In each place, I drop off the cover message and twenty of the petitions and tell them if they need more to let me know. There is an address at the bottom of the petition where completed ones are to be send. I tell each outlet that if they don't want to mail the signed petitions themselves, to call me and I will pick them up and do the mailing. At least that way I know that they will be sent in. (Also, it gives me a chance to copy them for the names and addresses.) --end forwarded message--- ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Re: A new "hate group" Date: 28 Oct 2000 08:24:59 -0600 So's Janalee Tobias' Women Against Gun Control, http://www.wagc.com/ . All this proves is that the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the real hate group. Scott On Fri, 27 Oct 2000 19:42:33 -0500 Chuck Bridgeland wrote to LRT Discussions Mailing list : >----- Forwarded message from concealcarry@egroups.com ----- >Date: 27 Oct 2000 09:40:39 -0000 >From: concealcarry@egroups.com >Subject: [concealcarry] Digest Number 717 >To: concealcarry@egroups.com >Topics in this digest: >1. FYI Concealcarry listed as Anti-Government hate group! >From: "Stephen C. Rainbolt" >Message: 1 >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:33:08 -0500 >From: "Stephen C. Rainbolt" >Subject: FYI Concealcarry listed as Anti-Government hate group! >http://www.wiesenthal.com/d_hate/links_antigov.html >Click on Chicago Rally for Citizen SafetySupport > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Molon Labe! Date: 30 Oct 2000 18:15:53 -0700 This was posted to another list with explicit instructions to pass it along. ********' Molon Labe! By George (Star PD) Two little words. With these two words, the concepts were verbalized that have lived for nearly two and a half millennia. They signify and characterize both the heart of the Warrior, and the indomitable spirit of mankind. From the ancient Greek, they are the reply of the Spartan General/King Leonidas to Xerxes, the Persian Emperor who came with 600,000 of the fiercest fighting troops in the world to Thermopylae, to conquer and invade little Greece, then the center and birthplace of civilization as we know it. When Xerxes offered to spare the lives of Leonidas, his 300 personal bodyguard and a handful of Thebans and others who volunteered to defend their country, if they would lay down their arms, Leonidas shouted these two words back. Pronounced "moe-lone lah-veh, accent on the last syllables, they mean "Come and get them!" They live on today as the most notable quote in military history. And so began the classic example of courage and valor in its dismissal of overwhelming superiority of numbers, wherein the heart and spirit of brave men overcame insuperable odds. Today, there lies a plaque dedicated to these heroes all at the site. It reads: "Go tell the Spartans, travelers passing by, that here, obedient to their laws we lie." I have adopted this defiant utterance as my own battle cry in our war against oppression, because it says so clearly and simply what we all feel towards anyone who would first disarm us to then enslave us. It signifies our determination to NOT strike the first blow, but also to not stand mute and allow our loved ones, and all that we believe in and stand for, to be trampled by men who would deprive us of our God-given, or natural if you will, rights to suit their own ends. In us, they will find no sheep, willing to be led to slaughter, terrified by force of numbers. Rather, they will meet hearts of steel, hearts which intend no evil, but will brook none either. I am moved to, and led to this after participating in message boards and in E-mail groups scattered throughout the Internet, and which many of us are familiar with. In considering the many posts pro and con, I am most concerned by the pronouncements of those who claim to be with us, and part of us, but then preach defeatism, accommodation, apology, negotiation, and worst of all, fear of offending those who are in the middle, having no position of their own. These "Chamberlains" apparently fail to recognize that in failing to stand up for right, and speak out in defense of our positions, they convey weakness and lack of conviction. Even defending our position is not enough, in this battle for freedom that we wage, now with words, perhaps later in mortal combat. We, those of us who believe in our cause, MUST go on the offensive. Reacting, denying, and answering alone are not enough. We must go after the lying wannabe dictators, and show them for the insidious snakes they are, and expose their lies, distortions, half-truths, distractions and other propaganda maneuvers they use to disorient and divide us. When those of us who speak out calling for "reason", pointing out that we cannot resist Apache Longbows, M-1 Abrams, Bradleys, and the other weapons of mass destruction that CAN be turned against us, yes, us who bought and paid for this equipment intended for our defense, and not our subjugation, they spread cowardice and uncertainty among us. And those who fall for these arguments, are their lawful prey. But those of us who will not be cowed by threat of force, superior numbers or superior equipment, will in the end prevail. This because we stand for right, and good, and will not surrender to either fear or despair. Ironically, standing up and speaking out has so far prevented the cowards who would use this force against us from doing so, simply because they know we can and WILL fight back, if need be. Only when they are confident that they can win without suffering loss themselves will they resort to using force against us. Of course, we all know that the continual cries for "gun control" lies at the heart of such a strategy. This then, is the reason why we not only cannot accept any more political defeats, but must roll back the unconstitutional, thus illegal, so-called "laws" passed in contravention of our Constitution, all the way back to and including the 1934 NFA. So when in discussions with others about defending the Constitution against threat from without or within, remember that victory comes from the heart, not from the hand, and that those who refuse to surrender will never be defeated. When Jesus said: "Greater love hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friend", He was speaking to ALL men of good heart. And when He said: "Go, sell all that you have, and buy a sword", he was speaking to those who others depend on for their protection. And finally, when He said: "What profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul", He meant too that besides the foolishness of selling one's soul for worldly things, luxury, security, safety and pleasures are not worth the freedom one must sacrifice for them. As we face the uncertainty that we now endure, and of which even more lies before us, these are things to ponder. In deciding how we will, and must act, we must determine what position we will take, and then stand by them, no matter the cost. A good number of my friends from groups and mailing lists that I belong to have also adopted Leonidas' two words as their own, and I heartily endorse the patriotism, dedication, and determination that they signify with these two simple words. "Molon labe!" And now, I offer for your consideration another important issue. Guns alone will not secure your safety, security and freedom. To be sure, without them, you will find it difficult trying to play Jackie Chan in efforts to defend yourselves. But don't delude yourselves, my friends. Regardless of how good you think you are, you need a lot more than weapons and determination to succeed in providing security for your families and neighborhoods. You NEED professional training to be able to properly utilize whatever you have. As Patton said, dying for your country won't cut it. The point is to make the other guy die for his country. There are a number of excellent training courses available that can teach you everything you need to know about proper use of weapons and tactics for survival in the event of massive civil unrest. There are courses ranging from "Urban Carbine", through "Tactical shotgun" to "Practical Pistol". Failing to take advantage of them is shortsighted, and for those who "can't afford it", false economy. You cannot afford to NOT take some of these courses. Of course, the more the better, but at least check them out, and take the ones that would apply to your circumstances most closely first. Don't overlook other important aspects of self-defense either. Things like having enough ammunition and magazines, as well as appropriate weapons are pretty well expected, but even besides having them, and learning how to use them, there are other aspects to consider that may well stand you in good stead. The most important of these is to have a plan, and not just one. Analyze your personal situation, and lay out a comprehensive plan that takes all circumstances into consideration. Then, knowing Mr. Murphy's nasty little habits, make a "plan B", and even "plan C", and "plan D". Too many plans is like too much ammo, sex or money; "too much is almost enough". Then, be sure besides supplies, consider the other things that can give you an edge. Night Vision devices, thermal scanners, "Bionic Ears", and one overlooked item, electronic amplifying earmuffs that block off gunfire noises. If you have to shoot inside, losing your hearing from gunfire will put you at a disadvantage you don't even want to think about. Then, don't allow yourself to be caught unprepared. If you have a garage, keep a minimum quantity of equipment in supplies stacked next to the trunk or rear of your vehicle for quick loading without hesitation or time loss. BACK your vehicle in - to allow quick exit. And keep your fuel tank full at all times. If TSHTF, you won't have time to be looking for a gas station that probably won't have or be able to pump gas for you then. ALWAYS keep blankets, a compass and maps, a folding shovel, a comprehensive First Aid kit, and water in your car. It's just good practice for ANY eventuality. As I write more columns, the Good Lord willing, I'll try to present other ideas and plans you may find useful for any eventuality, including civil disturbance and other natural catastrophes. Remember. "Molon labe!" George StarPD starpd@uswest.net -