From: charles hardy Subject: On a more personal note Date: 02 Mar 2001 14:45:12 -0700 I'm pleased, relieved, and also a bit overwhelmed to announce that at about 4:20 this Friday morning, my wife Jennifer gave birth to our first child, a happy baby girl. Proving that the best laid plans of doctors and mothers-to-be are no match for mother nature, Jennifer's water broke and she started labor just four days prior to a scheduled inducement. Following 10 hours of mostly back labor, Abigail Mae Hardy looks to be full term, weighed in at 7 lbs, 15 ozs. and is 20 inches long. Mother and baby are tired, but doing fine. Dad is tired and just starting to come to some realization that now the really hard part begins. :) ---------------- Charles Hardy - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R.Sawyer@epixtech.com Subject: Re: On a more personal note Date: 02 Mar 2001 14:50:19 -0700 Congrats to you, your wife , and the new little one! The hard part begins, but so does one of the finest experiences of your lives. Rob Sawyer charles hardy Sent by: owner-utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com 03/02/2001 02:45 PM Please respond to utah-firearms To: utbagpiper@juno.com cc: Subject: On a more personal note I'm pleased, relieved, and also a bit overwhelmed to announce that at about 4:20 this Friday morning, my wife Jennifer gave birth to our first child, a happy baby girl. Proving that the best laid plans of doctors and mothers-to-be are no match for mother nature, Jennifer's water broke and she started labor just four days prior to a scheduled inducement. Following 10 hours of mostly back labor, Abigail Mae Hardy looks to be full term, weighed in at 7 lbs, 15 ozs. and is 20 inches long. Mother and baby are tired, but doing fine. Dad is tired and just starting to come to some realization that now the really hard part begins. :) ---------------- Charles Hardy - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Sagers" Subject: Re: On a more personal note Date: 04 Mar 2001 13:24:26 -0700 Congradulations!! She will forever change your life, but its a good change, and little kids = are the greatest. David Sagers <<< charles hardy 3/ 2 2:54p >>> I'm pleased, relieved, and also a bit overwhelmed to announce that at about 4:20 this Friday morning, my wife Jennifer gave birth to our first child, a happy baby girl. Proving that the best laid plans of doctors and mothers-to-be are no match for mother nature, Jennifer's water broke and she started labor just four days prior to a scheduled inducement.=20 Following 10 hours of mostly back labor, Abigail Mae Hardy looks to be full term, weighed in at 7 lbs, 15 ozs. and is 20 inches long. Mother and baby are tired, but doing fine. Dad is tired and just starting to come to some realization that now the really hard part begins. :) ---------------- Charles Hardy - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: [UTGOA] Concealed carry recognition Date: 05 Mar 2001 23:53:14 -0700 The latest from UTGOA. ---------------- Charles Hardy --------- Forwarded message ---------- The following article is from Monday's Salt Lake Tribune. Utah Gun Owners Alliance's response follows: http://www.sltrib.com/03052001/utah/76840.htm MEASURE MISFIRES: Gun-Permits Bill is Shot Full of Holes Monday, March 5, 2001 BY GREG BURTON THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE Members of Utah's all-powerful gun lobby -- which took aim this year at the state's concealed-carry law -- may have fallen victim to unintended consequences. House Bill 376, sponsored by freshman Republican Rep. Glenn Donnelson of North Ogden, is not what it appears to be, says Nannette Rolfe, chief of the bureau that administers concealed weapon permitting in Utah. Sold by Donnelson and his well-armed friends as an act of reciprocity among states, HB376 actually does nothing for Utah permit holders. Zero. If signed by Gov. Mike Leavitt, who is studying the bill, HB376 would allow permit holders from every state that issues them to move freely in Utah for 60 days with their concealed weapons. However, Donnelson's bill severely limits what is now an unlimited right bestowed on residents from only 16 states. Oops. The confusion can be traced to the win-at-all-cost stand of the gun lobby, which badgered lawmakers to pass the bill. As conceived, the bill abolished virtually all barriers to permit holders from out of state who want to pack their guns in Utah. Hoping to preserve some sort of standard, lawmakers drafted three substitute bills before they passed the final version, which includes the 60-day provision. In its current form, HB376 would allow all sorts of folks to conceal their guns while in Utah, including Carey McWilliams, a North Dakota man with 10 guns who is blind. McWilliams secured a permit in his state when regulators helped him "get his bearings" before a shooting test. Under existing state law, North Dakota permit holders are prohibited from carrying in Utah because officials in this state say North Dakota's permitting process is lax. Why will the North Dakota guy be able to carry after the law is passed? Still, Donnelson, an amiable facilities manager for Deseret Industries, was giddy when his bill finally passed. "This is how the process works," he said. Or doesn't. "We have concerns," Rolfe says. For one thing, there is really no way to tell when an out-of-state permit holder enters Utah, the triggering event for the 60-day countdown. It is also impossible to check whether a permit is valid after working hours. There is no national database for concealed-carry permits. "The officer in the alleyway at midnight isn't going to know whether the permit is legal or not," Rolfe says. Concealed-carry holders from these states currently have unlimited access to pack on Utah streets: Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Kentucky, Florida, Connecticut, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Nevada, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Wyoming. Those agreements, though, can change overnight, Rolfe says. The state Bureau of Criminal Identification faithfully monitors the laws in each state to ensure that permit holders coming to Utah have met or exceeded this state's safety requirements, which include fingerprinting and criminal history checks. (What does this have to do with unexpected consequences of the bill?) There is another quirk. Donnelson's bill really has nothing to do with two-way recognition or reciprocity. Thirteen states currently endorse gun permits from Utah. The 37 states that do not are in no way expected to suddenly change with HB376. The states that recognize Utah permits are: Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas and Wyoming. If HB376 becomes law, it will in some ways limit rather than expand gun rights, Rolfe says. UTAH GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE'S RESPONSE: To the Editor, Salt Lake Tribune: Thank you for your article on Rep. Donnelson's HB 376 - Concealed Carry Recognition. While Utah Gun Owners Alliance (UTGOA) supported the initial bill (1st and 3rd substitutes before amendments), we opposed Sen. Spencer's amendment to limit recognition to 60 days. The original bill said that Utah would honor permits issued by any state or county (not country, as you've been publishing). Unfortunately, UTGOA was the only gun rights organization to oppose Spencer's amendment. Our concerns are similar to those expressed by Ms. Rolfe. The bill, as written, is unenforceable unless Utah starts issuing passports and sets up border checkpoints to monitor how many consecutive days people spend in the state. Unenforceable laws are unfair to both citizens and the law enforcement officers who are charged with enforcing them. Utah currently honors permits from 16 states for an indefinite period of time. We will no longer do so if this bill becomes law. Utah residents who currently carry concealed firearms legally based on possession of one of these permits will become "overnight criminals", even though they've done nothing wrong and may not even know about the new law. There is also a potential problem because the states that currently honor Utah permits may change their minds, and decide not to honor our permits because of the 60 day rule. Of course it's also possible that states that do not currently honor Utah permits will do so, once we start recognizing theirs. At this point, it's all conjecture. BCI currently has up to 60 days to issue a permit from the time it receives a completed application. It can therefore take longer than 60 days to get a permit, since the time needed for a class, fingerprints, letters of reference, photos, etc. is not included in the 60 days. As a result, a new resident may be left defenseless between the time his non-Utah permit becomes invalid and the time he receives a Utah permit, even though he is eligible under both states' criteria. UTGOA does not, however, share your deep distrust of other states' permitting procedures. Concealed carry permittees nationwide have been shown to be far more law-abiding than the average citizen, and have a stellar reputation for responsible behavior. Utah honors marriages, divorces, drivers licenses, and high school diplomas from states whose requirements differ significantly from ours. Carry permits should be no different. Utah Gun Owners Alliance hopes that our concerns, and those of BCI, can be resolved quickly, and that HB 376 will facilitate concealed carry recognition as was originally intended. We commend Rep. Donnelson for sponsoring this important and necessary legislation, but are saddened that he chose to accept Sen. Spencer's unnecessary and confusing amendment. Sarah Thompson, M.D. Executive Director, Utah Gun Owners Alliance PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: UTGOA-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Reciprocity and NRA Date: 06 Mar 2001 08:03:54 -0700 In his message "Thanks for the great effort you all put in at the legislature!" on Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:37:40 -0700 David A. Hansen gave his thoughts on the last day of the Utah 2001 session and addressed HB 367 S3 - CONCEALED CARRY RECOGNITION - DONNELSON, which passed. While I post this to show the apparent true colors of the NRA, the way to deal with it should it affect you is, if at all possible, to do nothing to register Utah residency until the day you file the permit application. This requires a definite move on in meeting the requirements, as until you do you can't be employed as a Utah resident, register to vote, apply for a driver, professional or resident hunting license, or possibly even sign up for utilities. Please recall that unless it has changed its policy, the NRA also opposes Vermont carry. Excerpted. Scott -=-=-=-=- On the topic of the CCW reciprocity bill, Terry Spencer pulled another fast one on us. This time he worked with Brian Judy of the NRA to craft an unenforceable amendment that would require anyone in Utah to acquire a Utah CCW permit after being in the state 60 days. When Judy was told that it took longer than 60 days to get a permit in Utah, he still did not back down from his position. One has to wonder just how much the NRA fights for your rights. Terry Spencer was quoted as saying that this bill has the "holy blessing" of the NRA. Of course, USSC, which is closely allied with the NRA, also endorsed this 60-day stipulation. I just hope that when a court finds the 60-day provision unconstitutional and stikes it down, that it doesn't strike down the entire law that allows recognition of out-of-state CCW licenses. Please thank the USSC and NRA for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Elwood Powell's email address is: mailto:1dpowell@sisna.com. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: guns and school violence Date: 07 Mar 2001 09:28:40 -0500 Dear Mr. Eric Debarbieux: In an AP news story that appeared today on YAHOO (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010306/wl/france_school_violence_2.html) you were quoted as saying: " "It is a problem of the commerce of arms," Debarbieux said. "As long as the United States hasn't regulated the sale of arms, we will have this type of thing." " You sir, no NOTHING of which you speak. "Commerce of Arms" in the USA IS regulated. Much more than it should be. Kids cannot buy guns today. At 18 they can buy rifles and shotguns and at 21 they can buy a handgun. And adults have a lot of regulataory red tape to go through. Especially in California, where this latest event happened. Regulatory burdens are also heavy for the gun dealer and other merchants of such items. And the violence in schools has nothing to do with "availability of arms." You obviously no nothing about arms in America, the rules and regulations and heavy burdens placed upon them and their commerce, nor have you done any research on the availability of arms in the US as related to school violence. Firearms were much more prevalent 40 years ago, when any teenage kid could go buy one, and they were often taken to school if the owner meant to go hunting or shooting before or after school. And they never were used for such horrific crimes back then either. Guns have become a lot less accessible than they ever were but the crimes keep on happening. As you should know, in science, when studying something, if there is a change in the system, you look for the variable that changed. In the study of violence in schools (in the USA), the violence has gone up, but gun accessibility has gone down, a lot. So it sure ain't the "gun availability" that is spuring this on. It is very disingenuous of you to go around making comments like the above from the AP which are totally unfounded in any sort of way, since you are recognized as an expert in this "field" and your comments are believed as those of an expert. In reality, your comments have no basis in reality and seem to be those of a politically motivated "academic" whose head is stuck in the unreality of the academic world where political purity is more important than honest, research supported truth. Shame on you! Sincerely, Chad Leigh Merrimack, NH USA Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: McCain Incumbent Protection Bill Threatens Gun Owners Date: 07 Mar 2001 10:39:40 -0700 McCain Incumbent Protection Bill Threatens Gun Owners -- Bill to keep gun owners in the dark, endanger existence of GOA Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org (Tuesday, March 6, 2001) -- Irked by nettlesome groups such as GOA which threaten to expose their anti-gun activities, Arizona Senator John McCain (R) and Wisconsin Democrat Senator Russ Feingold (D) are pushing legislation which would eliminate the ability of groups like GOA to keep gun owners informed on how their legislators are voting. In the name of reforming campaign finance laws, this Incumbent Protection legislation would allow the government to seize the membership lists of groups such as ours -- and potentially outlaw our organization. The issue is scheduled to come before the Senate between March 19th and 26th. The Incumbent Protection bill, S. 27, would require legislative advocacy groups -- including Second Amendment organizations such as GOA -- to report to the government if they spend more than $10,000 preparing for and participating in TV and radio broadcasts which mention officeholder-candidates within two months of an election. If they wished, government bureaucrats could define virtually all of an organization's activities as "preparation" for TV and radio interviews. With GOA employees regularly appearing on TV shows such as Fox News, Crossfire, and other programs to discuss gun-related legislation, there can be little doubt that S. 27 would apply to this organization. If it did, GOA would be required to provide the government with its donor list. For the time being, this disclosure would be limited to contributors of $1,000 or more, but no one should assume this threshold would not be reduced or eliminated once the government's foot was in our membership door. It goes without saying that an activist who sends a check to GOA to help protect his Second Amendment rights doesn't want his name being registered with the government as a gun owner. And for that reason, GOA will fight this bill "tooth and nail." And if this bill were to become law, GOA would not comply. We would fight it in court, and exhaust every possible resource, because we are not going to turn over our members' names to the government. This underscores why it is SO VERY IMPORTANT that we defeat this bill in the Congress! GOA would rather spend its members' dollars defending 2nd Amendment freedoms, as opposed to spending hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting 1st Amendment battles in court. Finally, because the Incumbent Protection bill would define GOA's battles against anti-gun legislation as "electioneering" if they occurred during election season, these legislative activities could affect our tax-exempt status -- and ultimately, our existence. Urge your Senators to keep their distance from John McCain and Russ Feingold, and to respect the free speech rights of all Americans. ACTION: 1. Please call, fax or email your two Senators and ask them to filibuster and vote against the anti-gun McCain-Feingold bill, S. 27. You can call the Senate at 202-224-3121, or toll-free at 1-877-762-8762. See the GOA Legislative Action Center at http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm for complete Senate contact information, and to send pre-written messages. 2. Forward this alert to as many gun owners as possible and ask them to contact their Senators in opposition to S. 27. ----- Pre-written message ----- Dear Senator: The anti-gun McCain-Feingold bill, S. 27, threatens to open the membership lists of Second Amendment organizations -- and even threaten their tax-exempt status. I urge you to oppose any bill that would limit the ability of outside groups such as Gun Owners of America to communicate with their members. I rely on groups like GOA to keep me informed when my rights are being threatened. I would consider a law to muzzle such groups as an attempt to avoid the accountability that an informed electorate provides. Please filibuster and vote against this anti-gun and anti-speech abomination. Let me know what you intend to do. Thank you. Sincerely, - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Karl Pearson Subject: Patron Saint of Handgun Owners Date: 08 Mar 2001 13:13:39 -0700 (MST) Vatican urged to name handgun saint CNN.com February 28, 2001 Web posted at: 1:23 PM EST (1823 GMT) VATICAN CITY, Vatican City -- CNN -- Admirers of a gun-toting saint are campaigning for him to be made the patron saint of handgun owners. St. Gabriel Possenti was known as a skilled gunman and is said to have once used his skills to prevent a woman from being raped. John Snyder, a former worker for the U.S. National Rifle Association, is leading the campaign to give the saint the new title. He said making Possenti the patron of handgun owners would demonstrate that the Vatican was "courageous enough to stick its neck out for the right of individuals to defend themselves against evil and tyranny." Possenti was one of the three people made saints during the early 20th century papacy of Benedict XV. Although the Vatican has approved many saints as patrons of various occupations or groups, its press office said naming a patron for gun lobbyists was not opportune. Possenti's reputation as a marksman is based on accounts that he once frightened away renegade soldiers, who were about to rape a village woman, by shooting a passing lizard. To publicise his cause, Snyder, head of the St. Gabriel Possenti Society, awarded medals, flanked by a handgun and a lizard, to other Possenti lobbyists at a hotel near St. Peter's Basilica. Snyder, who said the Vatican had told him he needed to enlist bishops from around the world for his cause, added he would not be discouraged. "I intend to keep bringing this to the Vatican's attention till they finally get the message," Snyder said. "Things in the Catholic church often take a very, very long time." ((( really. cnn. here's the link. ))) http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/italy/02/28/Vatican.Possenti/index.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: LP RELEASE: Media Bias & Shooting Date: 09 Mar 2001 15:57:08 -0700 The following, Libertarian Party Press Release is quite interesting... ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control --------- Forwarded message ---------- High school shooting and car massacre: Ultimate proof of media's anti-gun bias? WASHINGTON, DC -- The media's anti-gun bias is showing loud and clear this week as the latest high school shooting (two dead in California) is plastered all over every front page in America -- while last week's murderous college car rampage (four dead in California) was virtually ignored, charge Libertarians. "A disturbed 15-year-old California high school student kills two classmates with a gun, and it's front-page news and around-the-clock TV coverage," said George Getz, the Libertarian Party's press secretary. "Last week, a disturbed 19-year-old California college student kills four classmates with a car, and it's a minor blurb in newspapers and a 10-second clip on the news. "What's the explanation for this, unless journalists are almost 100% opposed to the Second Amendment -- and eager to jump on any opportunity to demonize guns and exploit gun-related tragedies, while ignoring other, equally horrific, crimes?" On Monday, a 15-year-old boy opened fire on his classmates in Santee, California, killing two and injuring 13 others at the Santana High School. The suspect, Charles Andrew Williams, was described as a "scrawny" kid who had been picked on by bullies. Over the previous weekend, he had joked about shooting up his school. The story made the front page of almost every major American newspaper, was the lead item on the nightly network news, and is generating around-the-clock discussion on cable TV networks. The crime also prompted new demands to restrict or outlaw guns. Meanwhile, on February 26, a 19-year-old student at the University of California at Santa Barbara plowed his car -- traveling at 60 miles an hour -- into a crowd of college students in Isla Vista, killing four and critically injuring one. The suspect, David Attias, shouted, "I'm the angel of death!" as he was taken away from the scene. He was described by fellow students as troubled, and was known in his dormitory as "Crazy Dave." That story was relegated to the inside of most newspapers, and generated scant attention on network or cable news shows. The crime prompted no demands to restrict or outlaw automobiles. Why was one a major story in the eyes of journalists -- and the other an afterthought? The only plausible explanation is media bias, said Getz. "Journalists are taught to revere the First Amendment, but most appear to scorn the Second Amendment," he said. "So they use their First Amendment rights to slant and distort the news to attack the Second Amendment. "As America rightfully mourns the two dead students in Santee while unfairly ignoring the four dead students in Isla Vista, that media bias is on display for everyone to see." Unfortunately, the Santana High School coverage isn't the only example of the hostility the media has towards gun rights, said Getz. In January, the Media Research Center released the results of a two-year study examining how the four major networks covered gun-related news stories. The study, "Outgunned: How the Network News Media are Spinning the Gun Control Debate," analyzed 635 stories on gun policy by ABC, CBS, CNN, and NBC. It found that stories with an anti-gun perspective outnumbered pro-gun stories by 357 to 36 -- a 10-to-l ratio. Another 260 stories were classified as neutral. Such a pattern is troubling -- not just for the Second Amendment, but for the First Amendment, too, said Getz. "Libertarians are distressed by the media's anti-gun bias, but we recognize journalists' right to broadcast whatever they want," he said. "However, journalists need to understand that when they attack one basic right, they attack all rights; when they give politicians more power in one area, they give politicians more power in all areas. "In the long run, the media's hostility to the Second Amendment -- and the exploitation of tragedies like the one at Santana High School -- will help undermine the right they hold most dear: The First Amendment. That's a lesson journalists need to learn before it's too late." # # # ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Date: 14 Mar 2001 12:56:48 -0700 The following story, from today's DesNews was also reported on the TV news last night. Both store owners said, on camera, they were convinced that if they had not been armed they would have been killed. Sorry to any who missed the report last night since, unlike criminal acts involving guns like school schootings, lawful self-defense such as this incident almost never get replayed much. I didn't time it, but estimate that coverage of the latest school shooting in CA received twice as much air time several days after the fact as this local, self-defense use of guns received on the night it took place. Pawnshop robbery-gunfight ends without any injury A robbery-turned-gunfight ended peacefully at a Salt Lake pawnshop Tuesday. According to the Salt Lake Police Department, two men entered Pickles Pawn Shop, 1514 S. State, at 11:15 a.m. and fired some warning shots at customers who were ordered to lie the floor. Two pawnshop owners heard the gunplay, ducked behind a counter at the store's rear and returned fire. The robbers then retreated and fired at least one more round toward prone customers, police said. The robbers fled into an alley, where they entered a getaway car occupied by two females. No one was hurt in the incident, police said. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: another old but good article Date: 14 Mar 2001 20:27:45 -0500 My brother posted this in 1995. (For Utah folks concerns BYU). Worth reading http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Essays/No%20Logic%20in%20Gun%20Control Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Where it's a crime not to own a gun Date: 14 Mar 2001 19:21:02 -0700 Where it's a crime not to own a gun ---------- In Virgin, Utah, where dislike of the federal government runs deep and residents regularly defy federal mandates, the town council responded to gun control measures with a symbolic ordinance requiring guns in every home. (03/14/01) http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/03/14/fp3s1-csm.shtml - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Paycheck protection signed into law Date: 20 Mar 2001 13:58:08 -0700 According to the legislative web page, Gov. Leavitt signed HB 179, Voluntary Contributions Act, aka "Paycheck Proteciont into law yesterday. While this is not a big surprise, it is still good news to gun owners and other grass roots groups. I'm sure the NEA and Public Employee Union will file their lawsuit(s) shortly to challange the law. Here's hoping it receives a thorough and vigorous defense and is quickly found to be constitutional and enforcable. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: To survivor, guns are the answer Date: 21 Mar 2001 11:27:13 -0700 http://arizonarepublic.com/news/articles/0318texasguns18.html To survivor, guns are the answer Hector Tobar Los Angeles Times March 18, 2001 AUSTIN - State Rep. Suzanna Hupp doesn't like to advertise the fact. But if you press her, she won't deny it - yes, she does carry a loaded gun when she's on the floor of the Texas House of Representatives. She feels safer. For similar reasons, she authored a bill - three days before the recent school shooting in Santee, Calif. - to allow rural high school principals to carry concealed weapons on the job. "People who commit these crimes are sick, twisted individuals who are looking for easy victims," Hupp said Tuesday, which was Texas' annual Second Amendment Day, marking the constitutional right to bear arms. Even in Texas, however, the proposal to arm principals faces an uphill struggle. But spend 30 minutes in the company of Hupp and you'll understand why a dozen more outrages like the ones at Columbine and Santana high schools would not be likely to produce much support for tougher gun laws in rural America, where owning a weapon is considered both a proud tradition and sacred right. Hupp, 41, is a survivor of the 1991 massacre in Killeen, Texas, in which 23 people died. She has been elected three times to the Texas Legislature on what could be called a "guns and more guns" platform. She is the person perhaps most responsible for the 1996 law that allows Texans to carry concealed weapons. The armed-principal bill is just one of a dozen gun bills she's authored or co-authored for this year's legislative session. Together, they would chip away at the remaining restrictions on carrying a weapon in Texas - it's still illegal to carry a gun in churches, on university campuses and at public schools. "I try to obey the law," she said in an interview. "But when it isn't convenient, or when I feel like I should (have a gun), then I carry. I never want to be in that position ever again." "That position" refers to the events of Oct. 16, 1991, the day that scarred Hupp forever and set her off on a public crusade. She was having lunch with her parents at the Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen when a gunman crashed his car through the front window and began methodically shooting people. Hupp's gun was locked in her car - it was then illegal for her to carry it. (At the time, she worked as a chiropractor and feared she would lose her license if she broke the law.) So she could do nothing while the gunman killed her mother and father. Hupp ran out a shattered window, thinking her mother was behind her, only to find out later that she had died embracing her husband. Copyright 2001, The Arizona Republic. All rights reserved Gannett Co. Inc - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: FW: Man Saves Life with Gun Date: 22 Mar 2001 10:54:11 -0700 With the leg session over things have really slowed down so I though I'd pass along some other info. While I do so, I also want to remind any SLCo Republican Precinct Chairs and other officers to be sure to attend the County Central Committee meeting this Saturday. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control --------- Forwarded message ---------- "If I'd had a trigger lock, I'd be dead," he said. "If my pistol had been in a gun safe, I'd be dead. If the bullets were stored separate, I'd be dead. They were going to kill me." Man faces suspects accused of attacking him after getting ride Victim had just fixed meal when he was assaulted and stabbed By Ellen Miller, News Staff Writer GRAND JUNCTION -- Chuck Harris, his right hand laced with stitches and his partially shaved head showing scars, came to court Tuesday to eyeball his attackers. It was the first time he had seen them since March 1, the day he was attacked and stabbed repeatedly by young hitchhikers he had befriended. Harris, a contractor, had picked up three young hitchhikers on his way home from work, taken them home and fixed them a steak dinner. He was preparing to offer them work when two of them attacked him, stabbing him repeatedly in the back, head and hands with knifes they had taken from Harris' kitchen. The assault stopped when Harris said he would get them money. Instead, he grabbed a .44-Magnum pistol he kept in a desk drawer and began shooting. He shot one in the torso. The two others tried to flee in Harris' car, so he shot out two tires. Police arrested the pair a short distance from Harris' house. That was more than two weeks ago. Tuesday, Harris was in Mesa County Court, watching the legal process unfold. "I plan to be here, every time," said Harris, 48, who came to court Tuesday with his mother and two of his three daughters. "I want them to get the maximum so they don't do this to anybody else." Tuesday's proceeding set May 25 for a preliminary hearing for the accused attackers -- Richard Barbee, 25, and Colleen McLean, 18, both of Bakersfield, Calif. The third suspect, Harold Scott, is in fair condition at St. Mary's Hospital. Charges are pending his release, police say. Barbee and McLean remain in jail, Barbee on $500,000 bail and McLean on $60,000 bail. Barbee faces 17 felony charges, including a first-degree kidnapping charge that could result in life in prison without parole. McLean is facing lesser charges. Harris, whose right hand remains swollen and bruised, said Tuesday that he will be off work for at least six weeks because four of his tendons were severed in the attack. "Working again is still a question," he said. "But I walked a mile today. I'm feeling stronger." Harris said the attack took him by surprise and that he was glad his pistol was easily available. "If I'd had a trigger lock, I'd be dead," he said. "If my pistol had been in a gun safe, I'd be dead. If the bullets were stored separate, I'd be dead. They were going to kill me." ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Professional lobbyist for anti-gun group Date: 26 Mar 2001 21:24:13 -0700 From today's SLTrib, . Our fight is obviously far from won. Also, looks like monster.com needs to be added to known anti-gun businesses. Finally, so far as I know from my layman's reading of Utah law, the contention in this article that a gun can be carried loaded so long as it is in plain sight is in error. I fairly sure statute prohibits carrying a loaded gun inside city limits unless it is carried concealed purusiant to a State issued CCW permit. Of course, having lived in Arizona for a few months and having enjoyed the ability to openly carry a loaded weapons without having to get a permit, I think it would be a fine change to make to our laws. :) We need to make sure that our legislators hear from us during the off season. ---------------- Charles Hardy Gun Control Is No Easy Sale in Utah Monday, March 26, 2001 BY GREG BURTON THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE For Utah gun owners, little has changed since the days when Brigham Young cautioned Mormon pioneers to stock food and rifles. More than 30,000 Utahns have applied for and been granted concealed-carry permits, and virtually every able-bodied, law-abiding citizen able to vote can strap on a holster with a loaded pistol in Utah as long as the weapon remains in plain view. It's an environment that makes Maura Carabello's job all the more difficult. Fresh from handling the failed congressional campaign of a young Democrat running in a district engulfed by Utah County Republicans, Carabello will now attempt what some would view as trying to squeeze water from a rock -- altering the course of Utah's gun culture. Earlier this year, Utahns Against Gun Violence, or UAGV, hired Carabello to apply a polish to their grass-roots organization. She will lobby the state's pro-gun Legislature, rally donors to her side and begin a campaign bent on incremental change to laws governing guns in Utah. UAGV was founded in 1993 by Ron and Norma Molen after their 22-year-old son Steven was killed trying to save a friend attacked in a dorm on the campus of Indiana University. For nearly a decade, board members have done their own, part-time lobbying. Carabello is the group's first dedicated employee assigned to the fight for gun control, a realm few Utahns have dared venture into. "What surprises me is some of the venom on the Hill spewed by the pro-gun lobby," she says. "We disagree, but, wow!" Carabello's position was created through a $65,000 grant from Monster.com mogul Andy McKelvey, who has funded scores of similar projects across the country since establishing Americans for Gun Safety last year. On McKelvey's dime, the group has run a national advertising blitz defending the right to own guns while arguing that law-abiding gun owners need not fear sensible restrictions. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., joined the group's fight this year to close the loophole that allows sales of some weapons at gun shows without a background check. Like McKelvey's organization, Carabello's first priority is to close what the groups call Utah's gun show loophole, a proposition that withered without debate this year in the Utah House of Repre- sentatives. "Maybe having a dialogue off-session will help," she says. Originally from Colorado, Carabello graduated from Utah State University and was director of the Children's Friends Foundation and the Utah Statehood Centennial Commission before running 3rd District congressional candidate Donald Dunn's 2000 campaign. Two of Dunn's friends, board members for Utahns Against Gun Violence, asked Carabello if she would be interested in running their group after the campaign. "We simply needed to do something to fight this cavalier attitude toward guns," says Steve Gunn, an attorney and founding board member of UAGV. "Personally, I am concerned about the fact that there seems to be no voice for reasonable gun control. All I can hear is the loud voice of the [National Rifle Association]." Carabello's first taste of Utah's gun fever came during a January legislative committee hearing where she was outnumbered nearly 50-to-1 by pro-gun citizens. "You have to give the gun owners credit. They are organized and focused," she says. "But I don't think that makes them representative of more people." Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Self-Defense Instructors Network, disagrees. "Our legislative process is open to everyone -- you cannot stop anyone from calling a House or Senate member," he says. "If they have the numbers on their side, why don't they pack these rooms? The fact is they don't have the numbers." Aposhian, like the NRA and the state's most dogged gun-rights group, Utah Gun Owners Alliance, opposes any change to gun show laws. "What 'Utahns Against Gun Owners' " -- as Aposhian calls Utahns Against Gun Violence -- "are saying is now we are not going to allow these individuals to sell their own personal property. What they are really looking to do is shut [gun shows] down." Carabello did little lobbying before the 2001 Legislature. Her opponents, as in years past, lobbied furiously before and during the session. Even so, the gun-rights advocates managed to clear just one significant measure through the House and Senate. House Bill 376 allows out-of-state visitors with concealed-carry permits to carry their guns in Utah for 60 days. After two months, the visitors would be required to secure a Utah concealed-weapon permit. The bill was sold as an attraction for gun-toting tourists, although the pro-gun faction made little secret of its desire for all states to also endorse Utah permits. Next year, Carabello will push legislation to end unrestricted gun show sales and a bill that would punish parents who allow children access to loaded guns. Utahns Against Gun Violence also supports an initiative sponsored by the Safe to Learn Safe to Worship Coalition that would ban guns from churches and schools. "I look at these things and say 'Wow, that sounds reasonable,' " she says. "We're not talking about taking anybody's gun away. That's where we need to work on our message. We need to have a dialogue, and that's where I come in." ---------------- Charles Hardy ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: Professional lobbyist for anti-gun group Date: 26 Mar 2001 23:31:24 -0500 I don't know the current utah law but you used to be able to carry an "unloaded" gun openly. Loaded was defined as needing 2 actions to fire it so a loaded mag in a semi could be carried but not in the chamber, for example. I used to carry like that in that back in 94 off and on, in Utah County and one or twice in Sandy and at the point of the mountain when flying my rc planes. Chad from what was warm spring like NH, but it snowed 1/2" or so tonight and I think it is still snowing, and we still have 4-16" on the ground which has ben snow covered since Dec 30 00. --On Monday, March 26, 2001 9:24 PM -0700 charles hardy wrote: >> From today's SLTrib, . > > Our fight is obviously far from won. Also, looks like monster.com needs > to be added to known anti-gun businesses. Finally, so far as I know from > my layman's reading of Utah law, the contention in this article that a > gun can be carried loaded so long as it is in plain sight is in error. I > fairly sure statute prohibits carrying a loaded gun inside city limits > unless it is carried concealed purusiant to a State issued CCW permit. > Of course, having lived in Arizona for a few months and having enjoyed > the ability to openly carry a loaded weapons without having to get a > permit, I think it would be a fine change to make to our laws. :) > > We need to make sure that our legislators hear from us during the off > season. > > > ---------------- > Charles Hardy > > > > > Gun Control Is No Easy Sale in Utah > Monday, > March 26, > 2001 > > > BY GREG BURTON > > THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE > > For Utah gun owners, > little has changed since the > days when Brigham > Young cautioned > Mormon pioneers to > stock food and rifles. > More than 30,000 > Utahns have applied for > and been granted > concealed-carry permits, > and virtually every > able-bodied, law-abiding > citizen able to vote can > strap on a holster with a > loaded pistol in Utah as > long as the weapon > remains in plain view. > It's an environment that > makes Maura Carabello's > job all the more difficult. > Fresh from handling the > failed congressional > campaign of a young > Democrat running in a district engulfed by Utah County Republicans, > Carabello will now attempt what some would view as trying to > squeeze > water from a rock -- altering the course of Utah's gun culture. > Earlier this year, Utahns Against Gun Violence, or UAGV, hired > Carabello to apply a polish to their grass-roots organization. She > will > lobby the state's pro-gun Legislature, rally donors to her side and > begin a > campaign bent on incremental change to laws governing guns in Utah. > > UAGV was founded in 1993 by Ron and Norma Molen after their > 22-year-old son Steven was killed trying to save a friend attacked > in a > dorm on the campus of Indiana University. > For nearly a decade, board members have done their own, > part-time > lobbying. Carabello is the group's first dedicated employee > assigned to > the fight for gun control, a realm few Utahns have dared venture > into. > "What surprises me is some of the venom on the Hill spewed by > the > pro-gun lobby," she says. "We disagree, but, wow!" > Carabello's position was created through a $65,000 grant from > Monster.com mogul Andy McKelvey, who has funded scores of similar > projects across the country since establishing Americans for Gun > Safety > last year. > On McKelvey's dime, the group has run a national advertising > blitz > defending the right to own guns while arguing that law-abiding gun > owners need not fear sensible restrictions. Sen. John McCain, > R-Ariz., > joined the group's fight this year to close the loophole that > allows sales of > some weapons at gun shows without a background check. > Like McKelvey's organization, Carabello's first priority is to > close > what the groups call Utah's gun show loophole, a proposition that > withered without debate this year in the Utah House of Repre- > sentatives. > > "Maybe having a dialogue off-session will help," she says. > Originally from Colorado, Carabello graduated from Utah State > University and was director of the Children's Friends Foundation > and the > Utah Statehood Centennial Commission before running 3rd District > congressional candidate Donald Dunn's 2000 campaign. Two of Dunn's > friends, board members for Utahns Against Gun Violence, asked > Carabello if she would be interested in running their group after > the > campaign. > "We simply needed to do something to fight this cavalier > attitude > toward guns," says Steve Gunn, an attorney and founding board > member > of UAGV. "Personally, I am concerned about the fact that there > seems to > be no voice for reasonable gun control. All I can hear is the loud > voice of > the [National Rifle Association]." > Carabello's first taste of Utah's gun fever came during a > January > legislative committee hearing where she was outnumbered nearly > 50-to-1 > by pro-gun citizens. > "You have to give the gun owners credit. They are organized and > focused," she says. "But I don't think that makes them > representative of > more people." > Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Self-Defense Instructors > Network, disagrees. > "Our legislative process is open to everyone -- you cannot stop > anyone from calling a House or Senate member," he says. "If they > have > the numbers on their side, why don't they pack these rooms? The > fact is > they don't have the numbers." > Aposhian, like the NRA and the state's most dogged gun-rights > group, > Utah Gun Owners Alliance, opposes any change to gun show laws. > "What 'Utahns Against Gun Owners' " -- as Aposhian calls Utahns > Against Gun Violence -- "are saying is now we are not going to > allow > these individuals to sell their own personal property. What they > are really > looking to do is shut [gun shows] down." > Carabello did little lobbying before the 2001 Legislature. Her > opponents, as in years past, lobbied furiously before and during > the > session. Even so, the gun-rights advocates managed to clear just > one > significant measure through the House and Senate. > House Bill 376 allows out-of-state visitors with > concealed-carry > permits to carry their guns in Utah for 60 days. After two months, > the > visitors would be required to secure a Utah concealed-weapon > permit. > The bill was sold as an attraction for gun-toting tourists, > although the > pro-gun faction made little secret of its desire for all states to > also > endorse Utah permits. > Next year, Carabello will push legislation to end unrestricted > gun show > sales and a bill that would punish parents who allow children > access to > loaded guns. Utahns Against Gun Violence also supports an > initiative > sponsored by the Safe to Learn Safe to Worship Coalition that would > ban guns from churches and schools. > "I look at these things and say 'Wow, that sounds reasonable,' > " she > says. "We're not talking about taking anybody's gun away. That's > where > we need to work on our message. We need to have a dialogue, and > that's where I come in." > > ---------------- > Charles Hardy > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > - > Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: Monster.com Date: 27 Mar 2001 12:04:43 -0700 Billionaire Andrew McKelvey is the owner of Monster.com, and according to http://www.denverpost.com/news/election/pol1005.htm is a registered Republican. Scott Future of gun control murky ---------- Gun control forces are in disarray around the country, with traditional gun grabbers turning their wrath on a new ally that wants to recognize the individual right to bear arms even as it lobbies for restrictions. (03/27/01) http://www.dallasnews.com/national/322293_guncontrol_27n.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: Texas gun bill wounded by surprise attack Date: 28 Mar 2001 13:52:48 -0700 This sort of NRA acquiescence to victim disarmament goes on in other states as well, and fortunately other groups encounter them in some other states as well. Scott Texas gun bill wounded by surprise attack ---------- A Texas bill that would bar even those simply accused of domestic violence from having a gun has been slowed on its seeming easy track to passage by an upstart gun rights group's aggressive e-mail attack. The state NRA affiliate had rolled over and agreed not to oppose the measure. (03/28/01) http://www.dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/323189_gallery_28tex..html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles hardy Subject: Stay up on interim meetings this year Date: 28 Mar 2001 15:56:11 -0700 While it is always important to follow the interim meetings of the legislature, this article from today's SLTrib seems to indicate it will be particularly important to be involved in those meetings this year. Let's make sure we don't end up with bad bills passing and being on the "fast track" during the session. Let's also try to get some good stuff passed. ---------------- Charles Hardy Lawmakers Spike Special Session Before Olympics Wednesday, March 28, 2001 BY GREG BURTON THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE It's the Winter Olympics 1, the 2002 Legislative session 0. Two months after Utah lawmakers thought they had hammered out a compromise schedule to fit around the 17-day Olympic extravaganza, Democratic and Republican leaders acknowledged defeat Monday. A tentative schedule -- approved in a meeting during the 2001 Legislature -- included a 10-day special session preceding the general session, mandated by the Utah Constitution to begin the third Monday of January. The general session would have adjourned Feb. 7 for the Olympics, restarted Feb. 25 and been closed for good March 6. Unfortunately, unfinished business from the special session won't transfer to the general session, analysts told the Legislative Management Committee. So while lawmakers still plan to break for the 2002 Winter Olympics -- a period during which they probably will be paid -- they have scrapped plans for the special session. Instead they hope to front-load much of their committee work during less-restrictive interim meetings. Most bills passed during interim meetings will put on a fast-track straight to the House and Senate floors. Squeezing the session down, though, presents a host of other problems, House Minority Leader Ralph Becker said. "We're that much more rushed for time, that much less deliberative." To ease their burdens, House and Senate leaders will ask lawmakers to "voluntarily" limit their bill-writing to no more than six measures, cutting an average workload of 1,000 bills to a more workable 600. Under another proposal, House Speaker Marty Stephens suggested the Legislature schedule sub-appropriation meetings during the interim session, remov ng much of the money-guessing game from the general session. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. -