From: utah-firearms-owner@xmission.com To: utah-firearms-digest@xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms Digest V2 #3 Reply-To: utah-firearms@xmission.com Errors-To: utah-firearms-owner@xmission.com Precedence: utah-firearms Digest Tuesday, 20 August 1996 Volume 02 : Number 003 In this issue: Utah Health Dept. warning -- from -- Non-member submission from [scott_bergeson@email.state.ut.us] Utah Health Dept Polls about Firearms in Homes [elk@tristan.mit.edu: 2nd Amendment to Supremes?] Letter to Legislators school zone maps Re: Letter to Legislators Re: Letter to Legislators FOX to air story on Lott paper Action! Lott CCW stufi to the legislature, gov, and mayors LPU: Browne on KALL CCW discussion on KTKK Re: CCW discussion on KTKK Off-topic: Banks LPU: Browne Wins "Election" See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the utah-firearms or utah-firearms-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh -- The Electronic GunShop) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 20:20:48 -0600 Subject: Utah Health Dept. warning -- from -- Non-member submission from [scott_bergeson@email.state.ut.us] Scott - the list only accepts posts from the email address you are subscribed through... >Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 20:06:00 -0700 >To: utah-firearms@xmission.com >Organization: State of Utah (UTAHNET) 801-538-3383 >Subject: Health Dept Firearms Poll > >Subject: Utah Health Dept Polls about Firearms in Homes > >Today I received a call from Cecilia of Gallup Opinion Poll in >Lincoln, Nebraska conducting a poll on behalf of the Utah State >Health Department. Along with numerous questions about health, >demographics, accidents, diet, medical insurance, etc., was a >question about whether there were any firearms in the home. >Although I declined to answer, this question is troubling since it >appears that the Utah State Health Department may be attempting to >make firearms a public health issue and make consequent regulatory >recommendations to the Legislature. > >The point of contact is Lois Hagert (sp?), 538-9455. Her secretary >is Kim Bangerter. Please inform me or the Utah-Firearms list of >any developments. > - ------------------------- Live Free or Die ! --------------------------- Chad Leigh | When Guns are Outlawed, Criminals Win! Pengar Enterprises, Inc -- Home of The Electronic GunShop (sm) http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop mailto:gunshop@pengar.com http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop/egs_text.html for text interface Ask me about it! Classifeds and Commercial Ads & free Firearms and Activism Info - --------------------$4/month commercial WWW space!!!-------------------- ------------------------------ From: Scott Bergeson Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 21:32:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Utah Health Dept Polls about Firearms in Homes Today I received a call from Cecilia of Gallup Opinion Poll in Lincoln, Nebraska conducting a poll on behalf of the Utah State Health Department. Along with numerous questions about health, demographics, accidents, diet, medical insurance, etc., was a question about whether there were any firearms in the home. Although I declined to answer, this question is troubling since it appears that the Utah State Health Department may be attempting to make firearms a public health issue and make consequent regulatory recommendations to the Legislature. The point of contact is Lois Hagert (sp?), 538-9455. Her secretary is Kim Bangerter. Please inform me or the Utah-Firearms list of any developments. ------------------------------ From: chardy@es.com (Charles Hardy) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:04:06 -0600 Subject: [elk@tristan.mit.edu: 2nd Amendment to Supremes?] - ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- I previously posted this message. However, I am reposting it because we we need to line up amicus briefs (at the Petition for Writ of Cert level). If you know of an organization which would like to submit a brief, or sign on to one, please call us at (818) 734-3066. Briefs are due on Monday, August 19!!! Hickman v. Block: A Second Amendment Case Goes to the Supreme Court (Or Does It) May You Defend Yourself? Although the answer to this question seems obvious, some self-proclaimed "experts" claim you do not have this right. They suggest the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution only guarantees a state's right to maintain a militia. What's more, these same "experts" suggest the Second Amendment does not prohibit gun control, not even total confiscation. Scholars Agree: A Personal Right -- Of the 45 law review articles analyzing the Second Amendment since 1980, 40 concluded it guarantees a personal right. Four of the others were written by "researchers" paid by anti-gun groups, and one was by a politician! Indeed, all evidence from the Constitutional Convention shows the Founding Fathers intended the Second Amendment to be a personal right. Just ask the British: on April 19, 1775, they marched to Concord to confiscate the Americans' firearms, and touched off the Revolutionary War. The Ninth Circuit Weighs In -- The U.S. Supreme Court has never addressed the question of whether the Amendment protects an individual right. However, on April 5, 1996, the ultra-liberal Ninth Circuit held in Hickman v. Block that the Second Amendment did not guarantee your right to own a firearm. Rather, the Ninth Circuit held the Amendment only guarantees a "state's right" to maintain a militia. That's when The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society (LSAS) went into action. On July 5, 1996, the LSAS filed a Petition for Writ of Certiorari (a request for the U.S. Supreme Court to hear an appeal of the Ninth Circuit's decision) on behalf of the plaintiff, Ray Hickman. It is anybody's guess what the Court will do. However, if the Court agrees to hear Hickman, we intend to win. $5 for Freedom -- To be successful, we need your help. We are asking every gun owner to contribute at least $5 to the cause. With a well-funded war chest, we will hire the best legal minds in the country to write the brief and argue the case. Is your freedom worth $5? Surplus funds will be used to underwrite other worthwhile pro-firearms litigation. Everyone is invited to join the LSAS; dues are $35 for lawyers, $25 for all others, and include a subscription to our acclaimed newsletter, "The Liberty Pole." Thank you for your support. Dan Schultz, President Steve Silver, Vice President The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society 18034 Ventura Blvd., No. 329, Encino, CA 91316 (818) 734-3066 web site: http://www.mcs.net/~lpyleprn/law_pole.html (The LSAS is a non-profit 501(c)(4) tax-exempt organization; Donations are *not* tax-deductible.) - ----- End Included Message ----- - ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "The difficulty here has been to persuade the citizens to keep arms, not to prevent them from being employed for violent purposes." -- Dwight "Travels in New-England" ------------------------------ From: chardy@es.com (Charles Hardy) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:36:20 -0600 Subject: Letter to Legislators Below is my first swipe at a letter to my legislators on the CCW changes swirling around the media. It is a little over 700 words and I am concerned about the length. I can't decide whether to send it as is, try to shorten it but hit all the same points (private property, businesses, churches, schools) or to break it into two shorter letters one dealing with perhaps churches and schools and one dealing with businesses and private property. Suggestions would be appreciated. Charles Hardy xxxx xxx August 6, 1996 Hon. Senator David Buhler 1844 E. Hollywood Ave. SLC, UT 84108 Dear Senator Buhler I am writing in regard to the proposed changes to Utah's concealed weapon permit laws I have heard about in the media. Particularly those that would allow private businesses to ban weapons on their property and completely prohibit weapons in churches and schools. I am very concerned about potential restrictions on not only my ability to exercise my right to self defense through the carrying of a defensive weapon, but also the erosion of private property rights. I believe that restricting the public places a person may legally carried a concealed weapon will generally result in more, not less, crime. Consider that much crime involving guns is committed with stolen weapons. There is certainly much less chance of a weapon being stolen while in the physical possession of the owner than from an unattended vehicle; and those vehicles are exactly where guns will be left if they cannot be carried into a given area. Beyond that, criminals will surely ignore "no-gun" zones just as they ignore the laws against rape, robbery, and murder. Individuals legally carrying a firearms are no more likely to commit crimes in one building than in another. However, I do believe that private property owners do have the right to restrict access to their property. If a private property owner does not want firearms on his property, he should be free to prohibit them just as he might prohibit any individual for any other reason. But, if we suggest that a public establishment may bar entrance to, or otherwise discriminate against, anyone exercising their rights to self-defense by legally being in possession of a firearm, it seems we must also be willing to accept that same establishment may discriminate against someone based on race, religion, or any other reason. I do not think the citizens of this State are prepared to do that. Private property owners must also be free to allow or encourage the presense of firearms on their property. Churches, in order to maintain true religious freedom, must have the greatest possible discretion over their holdings. Thus, if some churches wish to prohibit firearms on some or all of their property, they must be free to do so. But other churches must remain free to allow or even encourage the presense of firearms on their properties. A legislative prohibition on weapons in churches would infringe on churches' rights to use their property as they see fit. It would also leave what recent events in the South prove to be popular targets for crime completely dependent on the state for defense--a defense the state is not legally obligated to provide. Schools are the great red-herring of this entire end-run around self-defense rights. Inasmuch as no one under 21 years of age may obtain a permit to carry a weapon concealed in this State, it is already illegal for students to have guns in school. However, teachers, administrators, parents, and other law-abiding adults who may have business at public schools have as much right to self defense while in transit to or from or actually at the school as they do anywhere else in the State. Adult students attending colleges and universities have the same rights and may be particularly vulnerable to crime because of the hours they must keep. Further, if permit holders are not "specifically authorized to possess firearms" then even leaving their firearm in a car on or near school grounds may very well put them in violation of federal laws, forcing them to leave the gun at home or to park excessive distances from school grounds. Both options leave law-abiding adults needlessly unarmed and defenseless for prolonged periods. Publicly owned property should not be allowed to prohibit weapons unless facilities for storing patrons guns are provided and substantive security is maintained to ensure that criminals may not simply ignore the signs and prey like wolves on so many sheep. Finally, I believe it is important to protect the rights of individuals. Anyplace concealed weapon permits are invalid should be required to be clearly posted at all entrances. This will allow holders of CCWs to remain informed and to decide ahead of time whether or not to enter the posted property and to take whatever action is necessary to remain within the bounds of the law. Such posting should be required regardless of whether such property is privately or publicly owned. Neither criminal nor civil penalties should be allowed for an infraction anyplace not properly posted. Thank you for your attention in these matters. I would very much appreciate your comments on this topic. Sincerely Charles Hardy - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but with tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will be certainly be lost." -- William Lloyd Garrison ------------------------------ From: chardy@es.com (Charles Hardy) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 18:43:41 -0600 Subject: school zone maps - ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- Last year in Arizona, someone took a large map and highlighted where every school in the city was located. This included pre-schools, private schools, church schools, universities, university hospitals, anything that be intreprted under the State definition of a school. He then highlighted outward from every "school" boundry the maps scale of 1000 feet. This showed which areas in the city a person carry a concealed weapon would be guilty of crime if they entered given the State's (current and potential) definition of a school and the fed's 1000 ft gun free zone. Apparently it made quite a visual presentation for legislators who were of the opinion that prohibiting weapons at schools didn't really affect anyone. Might be worth having at the next hearing on the topic of ccw permits. Anyone know how to go about getting a list of all the licsensed schools in SLC? - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson - ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson ------------------------------ From: righter@aros.net Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 07:18:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Letter to Legislators On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, chardy@es.com (Charles Hardy) wrote: > >Below is my first swipe at a letter to my legislators on the CCW >changes swirling around the media. It is a little over 700 words and >I am concerned about the length. I can't decide whether to send it as >is, try to shorten it but hit all the same points (private property, >businesses, churches, schools) or to break it into two shorter letters >one dealing with perhaps churches and schools and one dealing with >businesses and private property. Suggestions would be appreciated. > >Charles Hardy Charles, While your letter makes excellent points, it is WAY too long! A general rule of thumb when writing to legislators is that the letter should never be more than one typewritten page - and not single spaced! (This is true for letters to the editor of newspapers as well.) Also, it's important to be very clear as to what you want your legislator to actually DO, what legislation you'd like to see enacted or opposed. If you'd like me to edit this, let me know, but it may take me a couple of days. This is a busy week! Thanks again for your enthusiasm and support. Best wishes, Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties The Righter The Demo-Cans have betrayed us! PO Box 271231 Vote Libertarian! Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 Harry Browne for President 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Director for Women's Affairs, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research http://www.aros.net/~righter/welcome.html ------------------------------ From: chardy@es.com (Charles Hardy) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:14:12 -0600 Subject: Re: Letter to Legislators On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, righter@aros.net posted: >Charles, > While your letter makes excellent points, it is WAY too long! >A general rule of thumb when writing to legislators is that the letter should >never be more than one typewritten page - and not single spaced! (This is >true for letters to the editor of newspapers as well.) > Also, it's important to be very clear as to what you want your >legislator to actually DO, what legislation you'd like to see enacted or >opposed. > If you'd like me to edit this, let me know, but it may take me a >couple of days. This is a busy week! > Thanks again for your enthusiasm and support. > >Best wishes, >Sarah It seems even the brightest of individuals lose the ability to read more than 100 words at a sitting as soon as they are elected to office. ;) I'm open to any and all suggestions as to the best way to persuade my elected officials to vote for freedom. I'm especially interested in what specific course of action to suggest when there is no specific bill in question yet. While I'm guessing that most any bill modifying the CCW statute will be so full of statist garbage that it should be oppossed, it's just that, a guess. But as you can see from my letter, there are a few changes that I think should be made wrt the rights of propety owners and the responsibilities of property owners and government to clearly post and of government to provide storage for weapons that cannont be carried into an area. (Totally truthfully, I think the permit system should be scrapped and we should go to a Vermont style law. But I know that is way to radical to fly at this point. Freedom can be scary.) At the suggestion of other list members, the letter has been broken into two letters--one dealing with schools and other governmetn owned property and the other dealing with churches and businesses. At their suggetion I have also added a bit to one letter dealing with government assuming responsibility for my safety when they disarm me and maing sure civil recourse is available. Thanks. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." -- Senator Hubert Humphrey ------------------------------ From: righter@aros.net Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:22:59 -0600 Subject: FOX to air story on Lott paper FOX-13 news in Salt Lake City will be covering the presentation of the Lott-Mustard paper (on the benefits of CCW) at the Cato Institute today. Reporter Robin McLean will be interviewing Sarah Thompson, M.D. of DIPR about the paper and its implications for CCW policy. Be sure to watch, and also to call and thank FOX and Ms. McLean for their willingness to cover this issue. The paper itself can be found at: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/~llou/guncont.html or in other formats and including tables at http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/~llou/guns.html Sarah Thompson, M.D. Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties The Righter The Demo-Cans have betrayed us! PO Box 271231 Vote Libertarian! Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 Harry Browne for President 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Director for Women's Affairs, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research http://www.aros.net/~righter/welcome.html ------------------------------ From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:42:17 -0600 Subject: Action! Lott CCW stufi to the legislature, gov, and mayors Hi All I would like to organize an action to collect money and to use that money to purchase nice official bound copies of the Chicago/Lott CCW study that just came out and to present them to each Utah senator and legislator at the State House as well as the governor and some of the mayors. What do you all think? regards Chad ------------------------------ From: righter@aros.net Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:39:41 -0600 (MDT) Subject: LPU: Browne on KALL Harry Browne, the Libertarian Party Presidential candidate will be on Kevin Stanfield's program on KALL-910 AM from 5:30 to 6:00 PM on Wednesday, August 28th. Mark your calendar. Tune in and call in. Remember that Harry Browne is the ONLY presidential candidate who will guarantee our Second Amendment rights, without restriction! He's also got a lot of other good ideas and is an engaging speaker. This should be good! Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties The Righter The Demo-Cans have betrayed us! PO Box 271231 Vote Libertarian! Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 Harry Browne for President 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Director for Women's Affairs, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Director of Communications, Utah Libertarian Party http://www.aros.net/~righter/welcome.html PGP key available on request. ------------------------------ From: righter@aros.net Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 17:16:58 -0600 (MDT) Subject: CCW discussion on KTKK Sarah Thompson, M.D. and attorney Elwood Powell will be appearing on the Robyn Bowers show on KTKK (K-TALK) radio, 630 AM, from noon to 1 PM on Monday, Aug. 19. Our topic will be concealed carry permits. Please listen, and please call in with support, comments, questions, etc. The call-in numbers are 254-5855 (SLC), 670-5855 (Ogden) and 470-5855 (Provo). We don't want to talk to ourselves! If you like the show, please call KTKK or Robyn and thank them. 253-4883 Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties The Righter The Demo-Cans have betrayed us! PO Box 271231 Vote Libertarian! Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 Harry Browne for President 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Director for Women's Affairs, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Communications Director, Utah Libertarian Party http://www.aros.net/~righter/welcome.html PGP key available on request. ------------------------------ From: chardy@es.com (Charles Hardy) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:16:38 -0600 Subject: Re: CCW discussion on KTKK On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, righter@aros.net posted: >Sarah Thompson, M.D. and attorney Elwood Powell will be appearing on the >Robyn Bowers show on KTKK (K-TALK) radio, 630 AM, from noon to 1 PM on >Monday, Aug. 19. Our topic will be concealed carry permits. > >Please listen, and please call in with support, comments, questions, etc. >The call-in numbers are 254-5855 (SLC), 670-5855 (Ogden) and 470-5855 (Provo). >We don't want to talk to ourselves! > >If you like the show, please call KTKK or Robyn and thank them. 253-4883 I don't have a radio at work yet and so missed the show. Anyone care to summarize it for me? Thanks. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. Would YOU be willing to give up your favorite federal program if it meant never paying another dime in federal income taxes? Check out or call 800-682-1776. "There is only one tactical principal which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction in the minimum amount of time." -- General George S. Patton ------------------------------ From: chardy@es.com (Charles Hardy) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:59:57 -0600 Subject: Off-topic: Banks This is mostly off-topic but I figured someone here might have a good suggestion. I have been banking with First Interstate for 10 years but three things have happened recently that suggest it is time for me to take my business elsewhere. 1. First Interstate decided that every customer holding an ATM card would be issued a new ATM card which doubles as a debit card. Since this card may be used just like a credit card at certain businesses, it now provides access to your funds without knowing the pin number. There is no option to maintain an ATM without the Debit "feature". 2. First Interstate declined to allow a legal defense fund account to be opened in one of their Arizona branches for the accused members of Team Viper (known in the media as Viper Militia). It seems First Interstate cares more for political correctness than assisting those interested in justice help the accused receive decent representation. And the straw that has broken the camel's back: 3. I just noticed that First Interstate is now requiring a finger print from all non First Interstate costomers to cash checks drawn on First Interstate. I frankly don't care to have my business associates treated as common criminals. So my question is, does anyone know of a good institution here in the valley that: 1: Does not fingerprint to cash checks. 2: Has ATM cards without a Debit "feature". 3: No or very low fee checking/savings. 4: Convenient location. It would also be nice if they had on-line banking services free or inexpensive and even better if they were openly pro-gun rights. I suppose that is too much to hope for so I'll settle for one that is neutral on the topic. Thanks - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. Would YOU be willing to give up your favorite federal program if it meant never paying another dime in federal income taxes? Check out or call 800-682-1776. "It is in vain, Sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace! -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the North will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that Gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -- Patrick Henry (1736-1799) in his famous "The War Inevitable" speech, March, 1775 ------------------------------ From: righter@aros.net Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:38:59 -0600 (MDT) Subject: LPU: Browne Wins "Election" Whether or not you support Harry Browne's campaign, he DOES deserve to be heard in the debates. Please sign the petition and pass it on! Thanks! Sarah Harry Brown, Libertarian Party Candidate, * wins * CNN TIME/Warner internet Virtual Pesidential Election (you may have heard this already but here are the exact final vote tolls): CNN TIME Virtual Election Results (total votes: 16553) one vote per person Candidate Votes Percentage Harry Browne 5004 30.23 % Bob Dole 3952 23.87 % Bill Clinton 3029 18.30 % Pat Buchanan 1375 8.31 % Ross Perot 470 2.84 % See for yourself: http://pathfinder.com/cgi-bin/GDML/report/AllPolitics?AllPolitics/virtualele ctionresults.html CNN Time is supposedly going to host a presidential debate. Harry Brown will not be invited. Hell, winning isn't everything, it's certainly not grounds for receiving any attention. It stands to reason that the most intelligent people are those that have staked a claim on the computer internet. It therefore follows that the intelligent presidential choice is Harry Browne. What to do next (from Hugh Butler) There's an on-line petitioning drive to get Harry Browne into the debates. If you go to http://www.twr.com/stbo you'll find a place to sign, and get other info concerning the drive. If you're interested, please do so, and pass the message along to anyone else you feel may wish to help. Thanks! Sarah Thompson, M.D. Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties The Righter The Demo-Cans have betrayed us! PO Box 271231 Vote Libertarian! Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 Harry Browne for President 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Director for Women's Affairs, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Communications Director, Utah Libertarian Party http://www.aros.net/~righter/welcome.html PGP key available on request. ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms Digest V2 #3 ********************************* To subscribe to utah-firearms Digest, send the command: subscribe utah-firearms-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". 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