From: utah-firearms-owner@xmission.com To: utah-firearms-digest@xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms Digest V2 #4 Reply-To: utah-firearms@xmission.com Errors-To: utah-firearms-owner@xmission.com Precedence: utah-firearms Digest Saturday, 24 August 1996 Volume 02 : Number 004 In this issue: 48 HOURS SHOOT DOWN JUNK SCIENCE RE: Off-topic: Banks Re: Off-topic: Banks PT Press Release All About Guns in the UK Letter from SLC PD See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the utah-firearms or utah-firearms-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: righter@aros.net Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:39:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: 48 HOURS THEY'RE ARMED! THEY'RE READY TO PULL THE TRIGGER! "I'm ready to kill somebody in a heartbeat." (innocent looking blonde woman) Teaser for "48 HOURS", thursday on CBS. Sarah Thompson, M.D. Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties The Righter The Demo-Cans have betrayed us! PO Box 271231 Vote Libertarian! Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 Harry Browne for President 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Director for Women's Affairs, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Communications Director, Utah Libertarian Party http://www.aros.net/~righter/welcome.html PGP key available on request. ------------------------------ From: righter@aros.net Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:45:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: SHOOT DOWN JUNK SCIENCE > THIS IS A MESSAGE IN 'MIME' FORMAT. Your mail reader does not support MIME. > Please read the first section, which is plain text, and ignore the rest. > This message was composed with SPRY Mail. Contact SPRY at 1-800-777-9638. - --XXCGW-1838713197XX Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: SHOOT DOWN JUNK SCIENCE http://www.sltrib.com/96/aug/20/tlt/21555816.htm > Tuesday, August 20, 1996 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > SHOOT DOWN JUNK SCIENCE > > > > The headline ``NRA Effort Works: Funds For > Gun Research Sliced'' (Tribune, July 14) is > misleading and inflammatory, and the accompanying > article contains many factual errors which require > clarification. > > No one in the pro-gun movement opposes > legitimate firearms research, not even the much > maligned and allegedly ``evil'' NRA. However, it is > reasonable to expect that our tax dollars be used for > legitimate, scientifically accurate research, not > junk science and propaganda designed to support the > administration's anti-gun policies. > > Research must always be neutral, yet the > National Center for Injury Prevention and Control > (NCIPC) has consistently published poorly designed > and statistically invalid studies. Its > ``researchers'' start with the premise that guns must > be eliminated and then design the studies to prove > this premise. They have refused to acknowledge or > consider studies by criminologists showing that > firearms have a net benefit to society. This is the > reason their funding came up for review. > > The House Appropriations subcommittee > responded not to ``lobbying'' by the NRA, but rather > scientific evidence presented by a coalition of > highly educated professionals. Those who testified > before the committee were: Bill Waters, M.D., of > Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research; Timothy > Wheeler, M.D., president of Doctors for Responsible > Gun Ownership; Miguel Faria, M.D., former editor of > the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia, > and Don Kates, a widely respected and often cited > lawyer and criminologist. > > These experts may or may not be members of > the NRA, but they are not spokespersons for the NRA, > nor are they officers of that organization. The House > Subcommittee is to be commended for both protecting > the public from false research and for saving > millions of dollars needlessly wasted on this > propaganda. > > The Tribune owes an apology to the House > subcommittee, the NRA, the experts who took time out > of their busy schedules to testify, and especially > the readers who depend on you for accurate, unbiased > information. > > SARAH THOMPSON, M.D. > Salt Lake City > ------------------------------------------------------ > > © Copyright 1996, The Salt Lake Tribune > > All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The > Salt Lake Tribune and associated news services. No > material may be reproduced or reused without explicit > permission from The Salt Lake Tribune. Sarah Thompson, M.D. Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties The Righter The Demo-Cans have betrayed us! PO Box 271231 Vote Libertarian! Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 Harry Browne for President 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Director for Women's Affairs, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Communications Director, Utah Libertarian Party http://www.aros.net/~righter/welcome.html PGP key available on request. - --XXCGW-1838713197XX Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="21555816.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="21555816.htm" PEJBU0UgSFJFRj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zbHRyaWIuY29tLzk2L2F1Zy8yMC90bHQvMjE1NTU4MTYu aHRtIj4NCg0KPGh0bWw+PGhlYWQ+PHRpdGxlPlNIT09UIERPV04gSlVOSyBTQ0lFTkNFPC90aXRs ZT48aGVhZD48Ym9keSBiZ2NvbG9yPSNmZmZmZmY+DQo8Q0VOVEVSPjxJTUcgU1JDPSIvaW1hZ2Vz L3RyaWJoZWFkLmpwZyIgV0lEVEg9NTUwIEhFSUdIVD0zND48Zm9udCBzaXplPTM+PEJSPg0KVHVl c2RheSwgQXVndXN0IDIwLCAxOTk2DQo8QlI+PEhSIFdJRFRIPTU1MCBBTElHTj1DRU5URVIgU0la RT0xIE5PU0hBREU+PC9jZW50ZXI+DQo8Y2VudGVyPjxoMj5TSE9PVCBET1dOIEpVTksgU0NJRU5D RTwvaDI+PC9jZW50ZXI+DQo8aW1nIHNyYz0vaW1hZ2VzL2JsYW5rLmdpZiBhbGlnbj1sZWZ0IGhz cGFjZT01IHdpZHRoPTMwPg0KPGltZyBzcmM9L2ltYWdlcy9ibGFuay5naWYgYWxpZ249cmlnaHQg aHNwYWNlPTUgd2lkdGg9MzA+PGRsPg0KPHA+DQo8Yj48L2I+PGJyPg0KPGltZyB2c3BhY2U9MCBo c3BhY2U9NyBzcmM9Ii9pbWFnZXMvYmxhbmsuZ2lmIiBoZWlnaHQ9MSB3aWR0aD0xPiAgIFRoZSBo ZWFkbGluZSBgYE5SQSBFZmZvcnQgV29ya3M6IEZ1bmRzIEZvciBHdW4gUmVzZWFyY2ggU2xpY2Vk JycgKFRyaWJ1bmUsIEp1bHkgMTQpIGlzIG1pc2xlYWRpbmcgYW5kIGluZmxhbW1hdG9yeSwgYW5k IHRoZSBhY2NvbXBhbnlpbmcgYXJ0aWNsZSBjb250YWlucyBtYW55IGZhY3R1YWwgZXJyb3JzIHdo aWNoIHJlcXVpcmUgY2xhcmlmaWNhdGlvbi48cD4NCjxwPg0KPGltZyB2c3BhY2U9MCBoc3BhY2U9 NyBzcmM9Ii9pbWFnZXMvYmxhbmsuZ2lmIiBoZWlnaHQ9MSB3aWR0aD0xPiAgIE5vIG9uZSBpbiB0 aGUgcHJvLWd1biBtb3ZlbWVudCBvcHBvc2VzIGxlZ2l0aW1hdGUgZmlyZWFybXMgcmVzZWFyY2gs IG5vdCBldmVuIHRoZSBtdWNoIG1hbGlnbmVkIGFuZCBhbGxlZ2VkbHkgYGBldmlsJycgTlJBLiBI b3dldmVyLCBpdCBpcyByZWFzb25hYmxlIHRvIGV4cGVjdCB0aGF0IG91ciB0YXggZG9sbGFycyBi ZSB1c2VkIGZvciBsZWdpdGltYXRlLCBzY2llbnRpZmljYWxseSBhY2N1cmF0ZSByZXNlYXJjaCwg bm90IGp1bmsgc2NpZW5jZSBhbmQgcHJvcGFnYW5kYSBkZXNpZ25lZCB0byBzdXBwb3J0IHRoZSBh ZG1pbmlzdHJhdGlvbidzIGFudGktZ3VuIHBvbGljaWVzLjxwPg0KPHA+DQo8aW1nIHZzcGFjZT0w IGhzcGFjZT03IHNyYz0iL2ltYWdlcy9ibGFuay5naWYiIGhlaWdodD0xIHdpZHRoPTE+ICAgIFJl c2VhcmNoIG11c3QgYWx3YXlzIGJlIG5ldXRyYWwsIHlldCB0aGUgTmF0aW9uYWwgQ2VudGVyIGZv ciBJbmp1cnkgUHJldmVudGlvbiBhbmQgQ29udHJvbCAoTkNJUEMpIGhhcyBjb25zaXN0ZW50bHkg cHVibGlzaGVkIHBvb3JseSBkZXNpZ25lZCBhbmQgc3RhdGlzdGljYWxseSBpbnZhbGlkIHN0dWRp ZXMuIEl0cyBgYHJlc2VhcmNoZXJzJycgc3RhcnQgd2l0aCB0aGUgcHJlbWlzZSB0aGF0IGd1bnMg bXVzdCBiZSBlbGltaW5hdGVkIGFuZCB0aGVuIGRlc2lnbiB0aGUgc3R1ZGllcyB0byBwcm92ZSB0 aGlzIHByZW1pc2UuIFRoZXkgaGF2ZSByZWZ1c2VkIHRvIGFja25vd2xlZGdlIG9yIGNvbnNpZGVy IHN0dWRpZXMgYnkgY3JpbWlub2xvZ2lzdHMgc2hvd2luZyB0aGF0IGZpcmVhcm1zIGhhdmUgYSBu ZXQgYmVuZWZpdCB0byBzb2NpZXR5LiBUaGlzIGlzIHRoZSByZWFzb24gdGhlaXIgZnVuZGluZyBj YW1lIHVwIGZvciByZXZpZXcuPHA+DQo8cD4NCjxpbWcgdnNwYWNlPTAgaHNwYWNlPTcgc3JjPSIv aW1hZ2VzL2JsYW5rLmdpZiIgaGVpZ2h0PTEgd2lkdGg9MT4gICBUaGUgSG91c2UgQXBwcm9wcmlh dGlvbnMgc3ViY29tbWl0dGVlIHJlc3BvbmRlZCBub3QgdG8gYGBsb2JieWluZycnIGJ5IHRoZSBO UkEsIGJ1dCByYXRoZXIgc2NpZW50aWZpYyBldmlkZW5jZSBwcmVzZW50ZWQgYnkgYSBjb2FsaXRp b24gb2YgaGlnaGx5IGVkdWNhdGVkIHByb2Zlc3Npb25hbHMuIFRob3NlIHdobyB0ZXN0aWZpZWQg YmVmb3JlIHRoZSBjb21taXR0ZWUgd2VyZTogQmlsbCBXYXRlcnMsIE0uRC4sIG9mIERvY3RvcnMg Zm9yIEludGVncml0eSBpbiBQb2xpY3kgUmVzZWFyY2g7IFRpbW90aHkgV2hlZWxlciwgTS5ELiwg cHJlc2lkZW50IG9mIERvY3RvcnMgZm9yIFJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIEd1biBPd25lcnNoaXA7IE1pZ3Vl bCBGYXJpYSwgTS5ELiwgZm9ybWVyIGVkaXRvciBvZiB0aGUgSm91cm5hbCBvZiB0aGUgTWVkaWNh bCBBc3NvY2lhdGlvbiBvZiBHZW9yZ2lhLCBhbmQgRG9uIEthdGVzLCBhIHdpZGVseSByZXNwZWN0 ZWQgYW5kIG9mdGVuIGNpdGVkIGxhd3llciBhbmQgY3JpbWlub2xvZ2lzdC48cD4NCjxwPg0KPGlt ZyB2c3BhY2U9MCBoc3BhY2U9NyBzcmM9Ii9pbWFnZXMvYmxhbmsuZ2lmIiBoZWlnaHQ9MSB3aWR0 aD0xPiAgIFRoZXNlIGV4cGVydHMgbWF5IG9yIG1heSBub3QgYmUgbWVtYmVycyBvZiB0aGUgTlJB LCBidXQgdGhleSBhcmUgbm90IHNwb2tlc3BlcnNvbnMgZm9yIHRoZSBOUkEsIG5vciBhcmUgdGhl eSBvZmZpY2VycyBvZiB0aGF0IG9yZ2FuaXphdGlvbi4gVGhlIEhvdXNlIFN1YmNvbW1pdHRlZSBp cyB0byBiZSBjb21tZW5kZWQgZm9yIGJvdGggcHJvdGVjdGluZyB0aGUgcHVibGljIGZyb20gZmFs c2UgcmVzZWFyY2ggYW5kIGZvciBzYXZpbmcgbWlsbGlvbnMgb2YgZG9sbGFycyBuZWVkbGVzc2x5 IHdhc3RlZCBvbiB0aGlzIHByb3BhZ2FuZGEuPHA+DQo8cD4NCjxpbWcgdnNwYWNlPTAgaHNwYWNl PTcgc3JjPSIvaW1hZ2VzL2JsYW5rLmdpZiIgaGVpZ2h0PTEgd2lkdGg9MT4gICBUaGUgVHJpYnVu ZSBvd2VzIGFuIGFwb2xvZ3kgdG8gdGhlIEhvdXNlIHN1YmNvbW1pdHRlZSwgdGhlIE5SQSwgdGhl IGV4cGVydHMgd2hvIHRvb2sgdGltZSBvdXQgb2YgdGhlaXIgYnVzeSBzY2hlZHVsZXMgdG8gdGVz dGlmeSwgYW5kIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgdGhlIHJlYWRlcnMgd2hvIGRlcGVuZCBvbiB5b3UgZm9yIGFj Y3VyYXRlLCB1bmJpYXNlZCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi48cD4NCjxwPg0KPGI+U0FSQUggVEhPTVBTT04s IE0uRC48L2I+PGJyPg0KPGI+U2FsdCBMYWtlIENpdHk8L2I+PGJyPg0KPGI+PC9iPjxicj4NCjxw PjxjZW50ZXI+PGEgaHJlZj0iLyI+PGltZyBib3JkZXI9MCBzcmM9Ii9pbWFnZXMvZnJvbnQyLmpw ZyIgd2lkdGg9NzAgaGVpZ2h0PTczIGFsdD0iRnJvbnQgUGFnZSI+PC9hPg0KPGEgaHJlZj0iLzk2 L0FVRy8yMC90d3IvaW5kZXguaHRtIj48aW1nIGJvcmRlcj0wIHNyYz0iL2ltYWdlcy93b3JsZC5q cGciIHdpZHRoPTcwIGhlaWdodD03MyBhbHQ9InwgV29ybGQvTmF0aW9uICI+PC9hPg0KPGEgaHJl Zj0iLzk2L0FVRy8yMC90Y2kvaW5kZXguaHRtIj48aW1nIGJvcmRlcj0wIHNyYz0iL2ltYWdlcy91 dGFoLmpwZyIgd2lkdGg9NzAgaGVpZ2h0PTczIGFsdD0ifCBVdGFoICI+PC9hPg0KPGEgaHJlZj0i Lzk2L0FVRy8yMC90c3AvaW5kZXguaHRtIj48aW1nIGJvcmRlcj0wIHNyYz0iL2ltYWdlcy9zcG9y dHMuanBnIiB3aWR0aD03MCBoZWlnaHQ9NzMgYWx0PSJ8IFNwb3J0cyAiPjwvYT4NCjxhIGhyZWY9 Ii85Ni9BVUcvMjAvdGVkL2luZGV4Lmh0bSI+PGltZyBib3JkZXI9MCBzcmM9Ii9pbWFnZXMvb3Bp bmlvbi5qcGciIHdpZHRoPTcwIGhlaWdodD03MyBhbHQ9InwgT3BpbmlvbiAiPjwvYT4NCjxhIGhy ZWY9Ii85Ni9BVUcvMjAvdGJ6L2luZGV4Lmh0bSI+PGltZyBib3JkZXI9MCBzcmM9Ii9pbWFnZXMv Yml6LmpwZyIgd2lkdGg9NzAgaGVpZ2h0PTczIGFsdD0ifCBCdXNpbmVzcyAiPjwvYT4NCjxhIGhy ZWY9Ii85Ni9BVUcvMjAvdHJmL2luZGV4Lmh0bSI+PGltZyBib3JkZXI9MCBzcmM9Ii9pbWFnZXMv b3V0ZG9vcnMuanBnIiB3aWR0aD03MCBoZWlnaHQ9NzMgYWx0PSJ8IE91dGRvb3JzICI+PC9hPg0K PGEgaHJlZj0iL2NsYXNzaWZpZWRzL2luZGV4Lmh0bSI+PGltZyBib3JkZXI9MCBzcmM9Ii9pbWFn ZXMvY2xhc3MuanBnIiB3aWR0aD03MCBoZWlnaHQ9NzMgYWx0PSJ8IENsYXNzaWZpZWQgQWRzICI+ PC9hPg0KPGEgaHJlZj0iLy9hcmNoaXZlLnNsdHJpYi5jb206MTA4MCI+PGltZyBib3JkZXI9MCBz cmM9Ii9pbWFnZXMvYXJjaGl2ZS5qcGciIHdpZHRoPTcwIGhlaWdodD03MyBhbHQ9InwgQXJjaGl2 ZXMgIj48L2E+DQo8YSBocmVmPSIvL3d3dy5zbHRyaWIuY29tL2xpbmtzL2luZGV4Lmh0bSI+PGlt ZyBib3JkZXI9MCBzcmM9Ii9pbWFnZXMvbGlua3MuanBnIiB3aWR0aD03MCBoZWlnaHQ9NzMgYWx0 PSJ8IExpbmtzICI+PC9hPg0KPGEgaHJlZj0iL2hlbHAvaW5kZXguaHRtIj48aW1nIGJvcmRlcj0w IHNyYz0iL2ltYWdlcy9oZWxwLmpwZyIgd2lkdGg9NzAgaGVpZ2h0PTczIGFsdD0ifCBIZWxwIj48 L2E+DQo8L2NlbnRlcj4NCjxicj48cD48aHIgbm9zaGFkZSBzaXplPTI+PGJyPjxwPg0KPGI+JmNv cHkgQ29weXJpZ2h0IDE5OTYsIFRoZSBTYWx0IExha2UgVHJpYnVuZTxicj48cD48cD48L2I+QWxs IG1hdGVyaWFsIGZvdW5kIG9uIFV0YWggT25MaW5lIGlzIGNvcHlyaWdodGVkIDxiPjxpPlRoZSBT YWx0IExha2UgVHJpYnVuZTwvYj48L2k+IGFuZCBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIG5ld3Mgc2VydmljZXMuIE5v IG1hdGVyaWFsIG1heSBiZSByZXByb2R1Y2VkIG9yIHJldXNlZCB3aXRob3V0IGV4cGxpY2l0IHBl cm1pc3Npb24gZnJvbSA8Yj48aT5UaGUgU2FsdCBMYWtlIFRyaWJ1bmU8L2I+PC9pPi4NCg0KCg== - --XXCGW-1838713197XX-- ------------------------------ From: Fred Orrell Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:32:39 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: Off-topic: Banks I believe that the fingerprint requirement was approved by the state, possibly was some kind of law. I remember talking to my bank, Zion's, and they have the same thing. I would suggest a credit union. They generally are more economical, but pick a well know one. I use the University of Utah for business accounts and have considered switching all my banking to those folks. Fred Orrell ------------------------------ From: WILL THOMPSON Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:08:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Off-topic: Banks Fred Orrell wrote: > > I believe that the fingerprint requirement was approved by the state, > possibly was some kind of law. I remember talking to my bank, Zion's, > and they have the same thing. > > I would suggest a credit union. They generally are more economical, but > pick a well know one. I use the University of Utah for business accounts > and have considered switching all my banking to those folks. > > Fred Orrell The decision to use fingerprints, as reported on KCNR 860, was a Utah Bankers Assoc. decision to allow it. As I understand it, not all banks are required to do it. I believe Key Bank is not. I would agree with the credit union deal. I use America First and they have always been happy to do what I ask and While I'm not sure about On-Line, they do have Touch Tone Banking, no charge on ATM, free checking, etc. Re KCNR....one of the hosts spent a week or so ranting about fingerprints and ATM charges. After speaking to Bank 1's regional manager, who told him that his account wasn't of sufficient size to concern her, he moved his accounts to Mounain West Credit Union. ( I think those "facts" are correct.) G'Day Will - -- Will Thompson Alpha Engineering Philips BTS Phone 801.977.1678 Fax 801.977.1602 will@phbtsus.com ------------------------------ From: righter@aros.net Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 22:13:57 -0600 (MDT) Subject: PT Press Release The following went out as a press release to the news media yesterday. JH NEWS RELEASE Peaceable Texans For Firearms Rights Contact: Paul Velte, 512-476-2299 Release: August, 20, 1996 ATF PROVES GOVERNMENT CANNOT BE TRUSTED WITH GUN REGISTRATION Thomas A. Busey, then Chief of the National Firearms Act Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms in October of 1995 made the startling revelation that officials under his supervision routinely perjure themselves when testifying in court about the accuracy of the federal database that the government uses to register and tax machine guns (the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record or NFR&TR). The NFR&TR is mandated by the 1934 National Firearms Act (NFA), and Chief Busey is the official custodian of this governmental record. Every prosecution brought by the federal government involving an allegedly unregistered machine gun requires testimony under oath by a duly-authorized custodian of the NFR&TR that, after a diligent search of the official records, no record of the registration of the firearm in question was found (or was found but showed a different registrant than the person being prosecuted). An alternative method of proving the same facts is by admission into evidence of a certified copy under official Treasury Department seal of a similar written declaration by the custodian. This is a critical element of the government's proof and, according to Busey, occurred 880 times in 1995 alone. In a video taped training session, Chief Busey stated that, "when we testify in court, we testify that the data base is 100 percent accurate. That's what we testify to, and we will always testify to that. As you probably well know, that may not be 100 percent true." Later in the same video tape, Busy goes on to state, "when I first came in a year ago, our error rate was between 49 and 50 percent, so you can imagine what the accuracy of the NFRTR could be, if your error rate's 49 to 50 percent." When the existence of this video tape was leaked to defense attorney James H. Jeffries, III, he initiated a FOIA request. Eventually the Justice Department responded by sending a transcript of the video tape to Jeffries in February, 1996 (they have thus far refused to release the tape itself). Justice has now begun advising every NFA defendant in the country of the situation. It did this with a recent mass mailing by United States Attorneys to defense lawyers and defendants of relevant BATF documents, including the Busey tape transcript. It is too early to predict how many new trials, appeals, and habeas corpus actions will result from this affair. Also unknown is the number of innocent convicted felons presently serving time in federal prison from flawed weapons convictions and what effect the Busey disclosures will have on their situation. "What we have here is a prime example of why we cannot trust government firearm registration schemes," said Paul Velte, founder of Peaceable Texans for Firearms Rights, a gun-owners rights advocacy group based in Austin. "If we are going to put people in jail for failing to register their firearms, then we must have government agents who we can trust to keep accurate registration records and honest enough to admit it when they do not," said Velte. "We want to know if anyone in BATF is going to pay any price for this 'institutional perjury.' What they have done is criminal." <---- End Forwarded Message ----> Sarah Thompson, M.D. Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties The Righter The Demo-Cans have betrayed us! PO Box 271231 Vote Libertarian! Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 Harry Browne for President 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Director for Women's Affairs, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Communications Director, Utah Libertarian Party http://www.aros.net/~righter/welcome.html PGP key available on request. ------------------------------ From: righter@aros.net Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 22:14:09 -0600 (MDT) Subject: All About Guns in the UK From: Sean Gabb Subject: All About Guns in the UK Sean Gabb Internet Release Date: 21 August 1996 Re: The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Last Sunday the 18th August, I took part in a one hour discussion on Radio Viva (963 Kh, London area only). I argued for the unfettered right to keep and bear arms. Opposing me were Tobias Bernstein of Society Against Guns in Europe (SAGE) and Jacqueline Walsh of the Snowdrop Campaign. Sort of opposing me was Graham Downing of the British Shooting Sports Council. Here follows a transcript of the first ten minutes of the programme. Since I have a living to earn doing other things, I haven't transcribed the whole - which is a shame, bearing in mind all that was said. However, what there is should be interesting, especially to those Americans who may not share Mr Bernstein's view of the Second Amendment to their Constitution. S T A R T S ======================= Sunday 18th August 1996, 10:13am. Jasmine Birtles (Presenter), Sean Gabb (Libertarian Alliance), Tobias Bernstein (Society Against Guns in Europe). JB Last week, we heard the official outcome of an all party [Parliamentary] committee on guns. The committee members were utterly split - in fact, it was six Conservative Members who voted to keep handguns, and five Labour Members who voted against. But they finally decided not to recommend the banning of handguns but simply a tightening of the licensing laws. Of course, we are still awaiting the result of the official Inquiry into the Dunblane Massacre, but for the moment is seems that handguns at least, as well as some shotguns, are here to stay. In today's debate, we have Tobias Bernstein from the anti- gun group SAGE [Society Against Guns in Europe], who's on the phone. In the studio at the moment we have Sean Gabb from the Libertarian Alliance. Later in the hour, we'll be speaking to Graham Downing, who's the spokesman for the British Shooting Sports Council, and also to Jacqueline Walsh, who's the organiser of the Snowdrop Petition, which, obviously enough, is against guns. If we could just start with you, Sean, as you're in the studio, could you just explain a little about the philosophy behind the Libertarian Alliance? SIG The Libertarian Alliance believes in Life, Liberty and Property. We believe in free enterprise, in privatisation, in low taxes - indeed, in many cases in no taxes at all. We are rather like what's called the right wing of the Tory Party - except that we take our principles to their logical conclusion, and say that if people are to have the right to make money in the way of their choice, they should also have the right to spend it in the way of their choice. Therefore, we're against any controls on drugs, pornography, and prostitution; we're against immigration controls; and - just a side issue, we're against gun controls as well. JB Do you have any difficulty with the idea that maniacs could have guns? Do you feel that there should controls on that - that there should be a toughening of the licensing laws at least? SIG No I don't. Let me give you my position very clearly. I believe that any adult should have the right to go into a gun shop and, without producing any licence or any form of identification, should have the right to buy as many guns and as much ammunition as he or she can take away; and should have the right to use all this for the defence of his or her life, liberty and property. JB For the defence? SIG For the defence. Now, if that means that, once every decade or so, some maniac runs amok, freedom has its costs. But the thing that the gungrabbers don't take into account - what they leave to one side - is that there's a downside to gun control. If guns are banned, it means that respectable people do not have any means of defending themselves; and it means that criminals - who will always get hold of guns if they want them - will be able to wander among us like a fox through chickens. Another point that the gungrabbers often overlook is that the State is the biggest violator of life, liberty and property in the 20th century. It is states that have murdered something like 250 million people this century. I don't hear any calls to disarm the policemen you see at Heathrow Airport with their Heckler and Koch submachine guns. I don't see any panic about the policeman who stands outside the offices of El Al in Regent street with his submachine gun. Supposing they were to run amok? People think "No, of course not! These are the State. They are trained. Well, as a matter of plain fact, state servants do run amok. They have uniforms put on their backs. They get sent out to kill people. JB Tobias Bernstein, you are from SAGE, which is against guns of any sort. Sean Gabb has said quite a lot about guns and why anybody should have the right to own them. What is your response? What do you think? TB I am surprised to hear what I've just heard. The libertarian view is perhaps much too liberal for some people in this society. The idea that as a free thinking and caring society we shouldn't try to protect ourselves from things which are clearly dangerous - like for example drugs, like for example guns - is, I think, ridiculous. Of course we know that many people enjoy taking drugs, and we know that they perhaps claim not an addiction, but that they are enjoying themselves. But that is illegal at present. And likewise guns should be unlawful - because the vast majority of people may use them in safety, but the minority kill people. The reality is that, although the slogan is constantly used by the gun lobby - "Guns don't kill people: people kill people" - it is both true and untrue. The reality is that, although guns don't kill people, people with guns do. JB What do you feel about this issue of civil rights - which is very strong in America - according to which everyone should be able to have guns for self-defence? TB There is a misconception here. Let me make it plain that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution does not provide for every citizen to be able to posses a gun as people believe. It's a common misconception. The Second Amendment deals with the State rights to arrange a militia and to have possession of guns. In 1972 the Supreme Court ruled in the United States that there was no inherent right to the ownership of a gun, that it was a State right which they conferred on the people in the form of a privilege. It is a farce to carry on thinking that in America everyone has a right to bear arms. That's not necessarily true. JB I've noticed in one of your recent advertising campaigns, you've put: "Five months on, the gun lobby can breathe a sigh of relief. Emma can't". And we have a picture of Emma Crozier, one of the little girls killed in the Dunblane Massacre. TB She was murdered. JB There is this issue of freedom of adults to carry guns and the freedom of children to live. That's obviously putting it in a very emotive way, but.... TB We'd like to say that there is no liberty where fear exists. Regardless of your circumstances, if you live in fear, if you wonder whether or not you'll be shot in a public gathering - in your own home in fact, as happened to a Tory activist shot with a sporting shot gun at his home - you have no liberty at all. JB Sean, do you genuinely think it is worth the occasional sacrifice of children and adults for the sake of the right to bear arms? SIG The short answer is yes. But a slightly longer answer is to say that there is no contradiction between those rights. Thomas Hamilton ran amok in Dunblane. He killed some children. There's no doubt of that. It was a disaster. But I am saying that gun control does not work in the overall picture. There is.... TB [Interjection] SIG No, let me finish. I've let you finish. There is no contradiction between my right to own a gun and someone else's right to stay alive. Let me give you a clear illustration of this. In 1933, Hitler came to power in Germany. He immediately moved to disarm Jews and Communists and anyone else thought undesirable by his regime. Because they had been disarmed, they were not able to prevent themselves from being herded into those concentration camps like cattle. JB That's selective, though. SIG It's not selective. TB This is propagating paranoia. I read this every day on the Internet, from American patriots who send me e-mail, propagating this paranoid fear of government. If you don't trust your government and you don't trust your police can you trust yourself? It's a disservice to the listeners of this programme to carry on propagating paranoia. SIG It isn't paranoia. We are talking about hundreds of millions murdered by states this century. For heaven's sake, do you really trust the State? If you do, why bother having a constitution and laws to restrain it? TB Do you trust your State? SIG No, I don't trust the State. TB You're paranoid of the people who you've elected into government. I think that that's a very sad state of affairs. I don't honestly think that this gentleman should be on the programme. SIG Are you calling for censorship? [No answer. Programme continues until the hour with much, much more of SIG] E N D S ============================= ======= Curious about a man who could talk about free thought and caring in one breath and call for my banning from the airwaves in another, I decided to look into Mr Bernstein and SAGE. What I found surprised me. According to a publicity leaflet now before me, SAGE is "an international pressure group with clear and concise aims". These are worth quoting in full: We seek to obtain the abolition of private ownership of all guns throughout the UK and Europe. We are actively targeting National Governments, the European Commission and law enforcement agencies throughout Europe to effect an immediate change to the current legislation on all private gun ownership. We are campaigning for the introduction of mandatory prison sentences for the illegal possession of any firearm. If we do not wish to become a member of SAGE, we are invited to join SAGE Community and Charitable Services, a registered charity (No. 1056753) with a very similar logo. We are invited to do this because the charity is in place to allow sympathetic people and organisations to help fund our activities and promote our cause to a wider audience. Now, while somewhat indulgent in other matters, the English law of charities does not allow charities to register for tax exemption while they engage in partisan political campaigning. I do not accuse SAGE the charity of doing this. I have not enough evidence to form any certain view. I do not who is in charge of each SAGE organisation, nor how the charitable wing is spending its money. However, the natural, grammatically correct, meaning of the words quoted above is that SAGE the charity is soliciting funds for SAGE the pressure group. In an appeal to join SAGE the pressure group, after all, to whom else could the possessive adjective "our" refer? It could be that Mr Bernstein is as incoherent on paper as he was on air last Sunday, and that the two SAGEs are not joined in any unlawful or disreputable way. But, lacking the means to find this out for myself, I invited the media to do the work for me in the following press release, sent out on Monday the 19th August 1996: S T A R T S ============================= ======= Release Date: Immediate, 20th August 1996 Free Market Think Tank Calls for Investigation of "Sinister" Anti-Gun Group. Britain's leading radical pro-free market and pro-civil liberties think tank, the Libertarian Alliance, called today for an investigation into the sinister political agenda of the campaigning anti-gun pressure group, Society Against Guns in Europe (SAGE). Appearing on a radio programme against Sean Gabb of the Libertarian Alliance, a spokesman from SAGE made it clear that, in his opinion, opponents of gun control should not be allowed on air to put their views. * He expressed hostility to other liberal and civil libertarian positions, apart from the right to keep and bear arms for self-defence. * He claimed that it was "paranoid" to distrust politicians and government. When it was pointed out that governments have murdered several hundred million people this century alone - and that gun confiscation had always preceded oppression and genocide - he replied: "If you don't trust your government, and you don't trust your police, can you trust yourself?" Sean Gabb, Editor of the Libertarian Alliance journal Free Life, and author of many papers on guns and other civil liberties issues, says: "It is high time that the press should look very closely at the broader and sinister political agenda of this pressure group. It is campaigning for the abolition of the private ownership of all guns. Leaving aside the dangers of confining gun ownership to criminals and the State, SAGE is closely connected with a registered charity (SAGE Community and Charitable Services) that is seeking donations from the public of up to Pounds 500. The Libertarian Alliance has today written to the Charities Commission, to raise the issue of whether such political campaigning is really within the law. And if it is within the law, then it is high time the law was changed." For further comment contact Sean Gabb on 0181 858 0841 (e-mail: cea01sig@gold.ac.uk) E N D S =============================== So far, I have had no enquiries from any media organisation. However, my readers might care to ask a few questions of their own. SAGE can be contacted at the following: Society Against Guns in Europe FREEPOST ANG2146 PO Box 330 Danbury Chelmsford Essex CM3 4YY FREEPHONE 0800 317938 Since any letters and calls from within the United Kingdom will be paid for By SAGE, correspondents are advised to be sparing in what they send through the post, and so far as possible to call during off-peak hours. SAGE also has a Web Page: http://www.sage.org.uk As soon as I have it, I will send Mr Bernstein's e-mail address. Sean Gabb Sarah Thompson, M.D. Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties The Righter The Demo-Cans have betrayed us! PO Box 271231 Vote Libertarian! Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 Harry Browne for President 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Director for Women's Affairs, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Communications Director, Utah Libertarian Party http://www.aros.net/~righter/welcome.html PGP key available on request. ------------------------------ From: chardy@es.com (Charles Hardy) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 19:07:05 -0600 Subject: Letter from SLC PD Here is the response I received from The SLC PD from a letter I sent them regarding Oficer Bell's editorial in the SL Tribune. My letter to the department is first followed by their response. I won't prejudice anyone's reading of the letter by offering any comments at this point, but I am open to suggestions as to where to go from here. August 3, 1996 Chief Ruben Ortega Salt Lake City Police Dept. 315 E. 200 South Salt Lake City, UT 84102 Mayor Deedee Corradini 451 S. State Street Salt Lake City, UT 84111 Dear Mayor Corradini and Chief Ortega I have just read a letter to the editor in the Salt Lake Tribune from an officer D.B. Bell. That letter is transcribed below for your convenience. In this public letter, officer Bell informs the 12,160 law-abiding citizens of this State who have received the requisite training and submitted to fingerprinting, photographs, and background checks and have been issued permits by the State to carry a concealed weapons that "[i]f [he] or any other law enforcement officer observes [their] ``hidden'' weapon, [they] will be lying face down in the dirt having handcuffs placed on [them]." He also states "the questions as to who [they] are and why [they] are carrying the gun will come after [they] are face down and handcuffed." He justifies this course of action by writing, "I and others involved in law enforcement cannot afford to get into the mind set that a person carrying a hidden handgun is just a ``good'' citizen." I must strenuously disagree. Given that Utah law specifically provides for adults to carry a "hidden" weapon, those in law enforcement appear to have no choice but to "get into the mind set" that at least some, if not many or most, non-threating adults carrying "hidden" guns are, in fact "just 'good' citizens" and treat them with all due respect. In light of current State law, officer Bell's statement appears to be a threat of unnecessary and inappropriate force. I am concerned we may have an insecure and hot-headed officer who seems prone to violence taking it upon himself to pronounce police department policy with regard to appropriate officer reaction upon suspecting or discovering a concealed firearm on an individual offering neither threats nor violence. I am even more concerned at the possibility that throwing non-threating, law-abiding adults to the ground at the first hint of a bulge under their clothes may, in fact, be police department policy. Or that the department has no clear policy in this area and leaves the handling of such situations too much to the individual officer's discretion -- officers such as D.B. Bell who have already decided that gestapo-like police-state tactics are appropriate courses of action to take with their employers, the tax-paying public. It appears to me that officer Bell is opposed to citizens carrying firearms for self defense. That is his right. However, if he wishes to outlaw the carrying of concealed firearms he should employ the legislative process as law-abiding citizens are expected. Unfortunately, he seems bent on abusing his office of public trust and taking the law into his own hands to prevent the carrying of concealed weapons through harassment, intimidation, and violence. Such action would appear to border on "Infringement of Civil Rights under color of law" -- a federal offense if I'm not mistaken. I hereby formally request that a hearing be convened to determine it officer Bell's comments and promised course of action are in harmony with departmental policy and State and Federal laws. I also request to be informed of the outcome of said hearing. I further request that a copy of official Salt Lake City Police Department policy on officer handling of situations in which a non-violent, non-threating individual is suspected of, or is found to be, in possession of a concealed weapon, along with training standards in this area be sent to me at my address above. If either such policy or training standards do not exist, I request a written statement to that effect on departmental letter head and bearing the signature of an official legally empowered to speak for the department. The citizens of this State, particularly those who have fulfilled the full requirements of the law and choose to exercise their rights to self-defense, are under no obligation to be subjected to State sponsored violence just to allay the concerns of police officers who, it seems, are too ill-trained to insure their own safety through legal, appropriate, and less intrusive, demeaning means. Your prompt attention in this most serious matter of public safety and potential civil rights abuse, as well as your written response including the requested documentation of departmental policy and training is most appreciated. Sincerely Charles Hardy - ------SLC PD letter follows---------- typos mine August 14, 1996 Dear Mr. Hardy In response to your letter dated August 2, 1996, I would like to respond to your concerns. First of all , I would like to state that this officer did editorialize as a private citizan, and not as a police officer. He did not speak for the Salt Lake City Police Department in any way. Secondly, I would like to put your mind at ease as to the policy of this Department. We do not, as stated in the article, put citizens on the ground "face down" as a matter of policy. Our policy is to use that force which is necessary to effect an arrest. This, of course, does not allow an officer to simply put a citizen face down or arrest that person becasue he or she is carrying a concealed weapon. We, in law enforcement, realize that there are those citizens who are allowed by law to carry concealed weapons. I'm sure that you realize being a law enforcement officer today is very difficult, and it's not always easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Therefore, we must also do what is necessary and within the perimeters of the law to make sure our law enforcement officers are safe. Officers, such as Officer Bell, are faced so frequently with the fact that this may be someone who means him harm, and may kill or maim him. He, of course, doesn't know that you Charles Hardy, and are a law-abiding citizen. He only knows that you have a gun. He, therefore, wants to take those precautions which will put him out of harms way. I know Officer Bell and know that he would take the appropriate action according to the circumstances, and that would not be placing a citizen face down on the ground without the probable cause to justify that course of action. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your concern and writing us about those concerns. If I can at all help in further clarification as to the Department's policy and procedure in this matter, please feel free to contact me. Sincerely Stephen Chapman Assistant Chief of Police - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. Would YOU be willing to give up your favorite federal program if it meant never paying another dime in federal income taxes? Check out or call 800-682-1776. "The practical and safe construction is that which must have been in the minds of those who framed our organic law. The intention was to embrace the 'arms,' an acquaintance with whose use was necessary for their protection against the usurpation of illegal power - such as rifles, muskets, shotguns, swords and pistols. These are now but little used in war; still they are such weapons that they or their like can still be considered as 'arms' which the [the people] have aright to bear." STATE v. KERNER; 181 NC 574, 107 SE 222, 224-25 (North Carolina Supreme Court, 1921.) ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms Digest V2 #4 ********************************* To subscribe to utah-firearms Digest, send the command: subscribe utah-firearms-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-utah-firearms": subscribe utah-firearms-digest local-utah-firearms@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "utah-firearms-digest" in the commands above with "utah-firearms". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/utah-firearms/archive. These are organized by date.